"Hello everyone-
"I wanted to see what everyone thinks of the following scenario related to a good friend of mine, we'll call him Bob, in keeping with Stefan's favorite name for pseudonymous people. This is a bit long-winded I know but its an issue I'm still trying to wrap my head around that I'm sure you'll find as perplexing as I do and it involves a lot of the same philosophical principles and precepts that Stef tackles in my favorite episodes, listener call-ins. I appreciate in advance your time and consideration. Maybe with your feedback I can be of service to my friend Bob and his wife somehow. Let's get right to it:
"Bob has known Jane for about 2 years now. They courted for about a year and a half and have been married now for 8 or 9 months now. From the very beginning of their relationship, Bob and Jane have had deep and meaningful conversations about their past, their values, their goals in life, etc. and were pretty well-aligned in all manners. They were in premarital counseling for about a year before they were married to address how childhood and family of origin issues might shape the dynamics in their relationship and they have worked fastidiously to recognize when they are "pushing each other's trauma buttons", so to speak and how to more effectively communicate their wants and needs with each other.
"Their arguments, as they've both told me, are infrequent and have never escalated into physical aggression towards the other, they've never yelled at or threatened each other, and there has never been any instance whatsoever of infidelity or abuse of any kind. Many people from the outside, myself included, have remarked how genuine their connection seems to be, how dutifully they seem in their commitment to each other and how happy they seem to be together.
"Like it is for many married couples, their first year of marriage has been quite challenging. Both have had some difficulties navigating family of origin issues, such as Jane's divorced parents and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and father against each other. Such behavior angers and saddens Jane, who in these circumstances, finds herself re-experiencing old wounds from her parents' particularly contentious divorce when Jane was a teenager. Bob is not without family of origin drama of his own. I know more about Bob's childhood as I've known Bob a lot better and for longer than I have Jane, but I know he was often subject to his mother's wild vacillations in mood along with torrents of insane verbal abuse when he was a child. Interestingly enough, Jane's and Bob's fathers both are quintessential Boomers straight out of a 4chan meme, often enabling the bad behavior of their wives with a dearth of philosophical complexity on display in their unironic use of the cringe phrase "happy wife, happy life". Passive, weak fathers both, but contrasted to Bob's disdain and disconnection from his own father, Jane has quite a close, borderline emotionally incestuous attachment to her father as from what it sounds like, she would often assume the role of emotional support child to her father during the divorce. This was an issue previously brought up for discussion by Bob in premarital counseling, as he had some misgivings originally if, upon marriage, Jane would indeed accept him as the paterfamilias or stay loyal and enmeshed to such an unhealthy degree with her father. Jane promised him that it was the former, though the doubt still lingered in Bob's mind. There were several conversations that the couple had about the fact, incomprehensible as it was to Bob (and me tbh), that Jane was 31 years old at the time she met Bob, had never had a relationship and this didn't seem to be much of a concern to her father. Bob confided when they first started dating to me how strange it was to him, especially in the modern Tinderfied dating world, how a woman as fit and pretty as Jane could be a 31 year-old virgin and suspected her father of holding her back from her goal of finding a husband with whom to start a family.
"Then in early March came the gravest challenge to their now 3-month old marriage. Bob received word from his mother that his 13 year-old nephew had killed himself, a gunshot to the head. This was of course devastating to both Bob and Jane of course, but especially to Bob, for it was his own brother's child, a boy with tremendous promise who excelled in music and suffered from depression, nearly identical to Bob did at that age. Unable to sleep, eat and feel any interest in sex with his wife, Bob was distraught to the point where he picked up alcohol again after 5 years sobriety. This was something Bob vowed never again to do as Jane expressed her intolerance for substances of abuse when they first started dating. One night a couple weeks later, Bob was arrested for misdemeanor assault after a fight during a night out at the bar (he had told Jane he was at an AA meeting at the time) and when he called from jail, Jane was furious at Bob, for the drinking and the dishonesty she despised in more or less equal measure.
"The next day, Bob was released from jail and out of desperation to get back to the sober life he had come to appreciate deeply, he checked himself into the hospital for detox. Surely, this would be a good-faith attempt as well to win back Jane's heart, as part of her forgiveness of him would hinge on whether or not he attempted to correct the problem that caused the harm to her heart in the first place.
"On the next day, during the hospital's visitation hours, Bob was called from his room and informed that he had visitors. Visitors, visitors like, plural? Bob thought maybe Jane brought me, or another mutual friend, an elderly neighbor they both befriended on a walk around the neighborhood one evening while they were still dating and who was a big supporter of their relationship. But to Bob's shock, it was not me nor was it their mutual friend who was the other visitor. There seated at the table was Jane and her father. Bob's heart sank and he became angered by his presence. He asked Jane what she was thinking by having her father drive 7 hours to be party to a conversation that should be only the place of the two to have. He refused to sit down and talk with them any further. When he was discharged from the hospital several days later, Bob was presented with a note from Jane telling him she was going back home with her father to process things. A month past and every attempt Bob made to contact Jane went unanswered. Last week, Bob received a knock at the door. It was a porter from a law firm who handed Bob a summons. "Dissolution of Marriage". "The petitioner (wife) alleges fraud". "The marriage should be annulled due to fraud as the respondent (husband) failed to disclose to the petitioner that he suffers from a mental illness which affects his ability to be forthright and truthful with the petitioner."
"This is where my friend Bob is now. He was and has now been going to AA meetings daily since the day he was released from the hospital. He's sad, of course, but he's managing it well, got a new job, working out everyday, has a sponsor and is working the steps in AA. All of this really makes my head spin. There's so much to mine for discussion here. "In sickness and in health" is one. It's so strange how a relationship that was so promising can just be jettisoned in a couple months. How one tragedy can set off a series of events that changes the course of so many lives. They were planning on having children one day in the not-so-distant future. I've been Bob's friend a long time and really came to like Jane in the past two years. I was at their wedding and Jane's family all raved about what a good guy Bob is. Only a week before Bob's arrest, Jane's stepmom and father came down to visit and remarked how happy they both seemed to be. I don't even know what to make of all this and maybe you guys could help me (and them both possibly) understand each other's side a bit better. Do you think Jane's loyalty really was ever with Bob or did her father come between them? If you were Bob, how would you respond to receiving the dissolution of marriage summons? If you were Jane, would you stick it out with Bob if you were witness to his sincere efforts in sobriety? As long as I've known Bob, he's been a decent dude honest to a fault, and I think he's been forthright with me about everything, for instance, he told me that when he was having trouble being interested in sex with Jane so he resorted to watching a porn clip while she was getting ready for bed in attempt to gain an erection. He even told me she caught him because when she came to bed, he left the screen open. He's been fairly outspoken against porn in the past when it comes up in conversation so I imagine it took a good bit of honesty and humility to even bring that up to me. I know I'm biased since he was my friend before Jane was my friend but damn, I can't even begin to unravel how a marriage, let alone THEIR marriage, could just break up like that. What are your thoughts?"
0:00 - Introduction
0:28 - Bob and Jane's Relationship History
4:45 - Tragic News: Bob's Nephew's Suicide
7:49 - Jane's Sudden Disappearance
9:49 - Summons for Dissolution of Marriage
14:12 - Importance of Integrity in Relationships
19:26 - Jane's Father's Unexpected Visit
22:10 - Consequences of Being in a Dysfunctional Environment
26:18 - Disappointment in Lack of Action to Address Toxicity
31:26 - Impact of Staying in a Toxic Environment
34:31 - Confrontation with Jane's Father
41:36 - Ripple Effects of Dysfunctional Relationships
43:17 - The Influence of Negative Relationships
43:48 - Enabling Destructive Behavior
47:08 - Confronting the Reality of Dysfunctional Family Dynamics
The host is Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain and is discussing a scenario presented by a listener regarding a friend named Bob and his troubled marriage to Jane. Bob and Jane had a promising relationship, but faced challenges due to their dysfunctional family backgrounds. Bob's childhood involved verbal abuse from his mother, while Jane had a close relationship with her father. Despite their efforts in premarital counseling, their marriage struggled.
The listener reflects on how Bob and Jane's marriage began to unravel after a series of tragic events, including the suicide of Bob's 13-year-old nephew, which led Bob to relapse into alcoholism and lying to Jane. Jane's father intervened in their relationship, causing tension between Bob and Jane. The situation deteriorated further when Jane filed for dissolution of marriage, alleging Bob's mental illness and lack of forthrightness as reasons.
Stefan emphasizes the impact of surrounding oneself with dysfunctional people, suggesting that Bob's choices to stay in such an environment led to his struggles. Stefan criticizes the listener for not advising Bob to distance himself from toxic influences and highlights the importance of choosing healthy companions for a successful life and marriage. He stresses the influence of corrupt individuals on one's behavior and decisions, leading to a breakdown in relationships.
Stefan questions the listener's failure to address the root cause of Bob's issues and suggests that enabling dysfunction ultimately resulted in the marriage's downfall. He critiques the listener for acting surprised at the marriage's demise when the signs of dysfunction were clear. Stefan emphasizes the need to take responsibility for one's choices, especially in relationships, and warns against the detrimental effects of being around manipulative and toxic individuals.
In conclusion, Stefan urges the listener to recognize the role they played in enabling Bob and Jane's dysfunctional relationship and stresses the importance of choosing integrity and healthy relationships for a successful life. He emphasizes that surrounding oneself with corrupt individuals leads to destructive consequences and calls for accountability in maintaining positive and fulfilling connections.
[0:00] All right. Hi there. It's Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain. This is a question, a story, and a question, a series of questions from a listener at freedomain.locals.com. I hope you will join the community. This gets me very passionate, so brace yourselves, just so you know.
[0:18] Hello, everyone. I wanted to see what everyone thinks of the following scenario related to a good friend of mine. We'll call him Bob, in keeping with Stefan's favorite name for or pseudonymous people.
[0:29] This is a bit long-winded, I know, but it's an issue I'm still trying to wrap my head around, that I'm sure you'll find as perplexing as I do, and it involves a lot of the same philosophical principles and precepts as Stefan tackles in my favorite episodes, Listener Call-Ins. I appreciate in advance your time and consideration, maybe with your feedback, I can be of service to my friend Bob and his wife, somehow. Let's get right to it. Well, Well, a little late for that, but we'll get there. Bob has known Jane for about two years now. They courted for about a year and a half and have been married now for eight or nine months. From the very beginning of their relationship, Bob and Jane have had deep and meaningful conversations about their past, their values, their goals in life, etc. And were pretty well aligned in all manners. Manners, manners. They were in premarital counseling for about a year before they were married to address how childhood and family of origin issues might shape the dynamics in their relationship. And they have worked fastidiously to recognize when they are, quote, pushing each other's trauma buttons, so to speak, and how to more effectively communicate their wants and needs to each other.
[1:41] Their arguments, as they both told me, are infrequent and have never escalated into physical aggression towards the other. They've never yelled at or threatened each other, and there has never been any instance whatsoever of infidelity or abuse of any kind. Many people from the outside, myself included, have remarked how genuine their connection seems to be, how dutifully they seem in their commitment to each other, and how happy they seem to be together.
[2:11] Like it is for many married couples, their first year of marriage has been quite challenging. Both have had some difficulties navigating family of origin issues, such as Jane's divorced parents and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and father against each other. Such behavior angers and saddens Jane, who in these circumstances finds herself re-experiencing old wounds from her parents' particularly contentious divorce when Jane was a teenager. Bob is not without family of origin drama of his own. I know more about Bob's childhood, as I've known Bob a lot longer, a lot better and for longer than I have Jane. But I know he was often subject to his mother's wild vacillations in mood, along with torrents of insane verbal abuse when he was a child.
[3:04] Interestingly enough, Jane's and Bob's fathers Both are quintessential boomers straight out of a 4chan meme, often enabling the bad behavior of their wives with a dearth of philosophical complexity on display in their unironic use of the cringe phrase, happy wife, happy life. Passive, weak fathers both. But contrasted to Bob's disdain and disconnection from his own father, Jane has quite a close, borderline, emotionally incestuous attachment to her father. As from what it sounds like, like she would often assume the role of emotional support child to her father during the divorce. This was an issue previously brought up for discussion by Bob in premarital counseling, as he had some misgivings originally if, upon marriage, Jane would indeed accept him as the pater familius or stay loyal and enmeshed to such an unhealthy degree with her father. Jane promised him that it was the former, though the doubt still lingered in Bob's mind.
[4:06] There were several conversations that the couple had about the fact, incomprehensible as it was to Bob and me, to be honest, that Jane was 31 years old at the time she met Bob, had never had a relationship, and this didn't seem to be much of a concern to her father. Bob confided when they first started dating to me how strange it was to him, especially in the modern tindified dating world, how a woman as fit and pretty as Jane could be a 31-year-old virgin and suspected her father of holding her back from her goal of finding a husband with whom to start a family.
[4:46] Then, in early March, came the gravest challenge to their now three-month-old marriage. Bob received word from his mother that his 13-year-old nephew had killed himself, a gunshot to the head. This was, of course, devastating to both Bob and Jane, but especially to Bob, for it was his own brother's child, a boy with tremendous promise who excelled in music and suffered from depression, nearly identical to Bob at that age. Unable to sleep, eat, and feel any interest in sex with his wife, Bob was distraught to the point where he picked up alcohol again after five years' sobriety. This was something Bob vowed never again to do as Jane expressed her intolerance for substances of abuse when they first started dating. One night, a couple weeks later, Bob was arrested for misdemeanor assault after a fight during a night out at the bar. He had told Jane he was at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting at the time, and when he called from jail, Jane was furious at Bob for the drinking and the dishonesty she despised in more or less equal measure.
[6:06] The next day, Bob was released from jail, and out of desperation to get back to the sober life he had come to appreciate deeply, he checked himself into the hospital for detox. Surely this would be a good-faith attempt as well to win back Jane's heart, as part of her forgiveness of him would hinge on whether or not he attempted to correct the problem that caused the harm to her heart in the first place. On the next day, during the hospital's visitation hours, Bob was called from his room and informed that he had visitors. Visitors? Visitors like plural? Bob thought maybe Jane brought me or another mutual friend, an elderly neighbor. Sorry, they both befriended on a walk around the neighborhood one evening while they were still dating and who was a big supporter of their relationship. But, to Bob's shock, it was not me, nor was it their mutual friend, who was the other visitor. There, seated at the table, was Jane and her father.
[7:16] Bob's heart sank, and he became angered by his presence. He asked Jane what she was thinking by having her father drive seven hours to be a party to a conversation that should be only the place of the two to have. They should only, the two of them should be having. He refused to sit down and talk with them any further. When he was discharged from the hospital several days later, Bob was presented with a note from Jane telling him that she was going back with her father to process things.
[7:50] A month passed, and every attempt Bob made to contact Jane went unanswered. Last week, Bob received a knock at the door. It was a porter from a law firm who handed Bob a summons.
[8:06] Dissolution of marriage. The petitioner wife alleges fraud. The marriage should be annulled due to fraud as the respondent husband failed to disclose to the petitioner that he suffers from a mental illness which affects his ability to be forthright and truthful with the petitioner.
[8:24] This is where my friend Bob is now. He was and has now been going to AA meetings daily since the day he was released from the hospital. He's sad, of course, but he's managing it well, got a new job, working out every day, has a sponsor, and is working the steps in AA.
[8:45] All of this really makes my head spin. There's so much to mine for discussion here. In sickness and in health is one. It's so strange how a relationship that was so promising can just be jettisoned in a couple months. How one tragedy can set off a series of events that changes the course of so many lives. They were planning on having children one day in the not-so-distant future. I've been Bob's friend a long time and really came to like Jane in the past two years. I was at their wedding, and Jane's family all raved about what a good guy Bob is. Only a week before Bob's arrest, Jane's stepmom and father came down to visit and remarked how happy they both seemed to be. I don't even know what to make of all this, and maybe you guys could help me, and them both, possibly, understand each other's side a bit better. Do you think Jane's loyalty really was ever with Bob, or did her father come between them?
[9:49] If you were Bob, how would you respond to receiving the dissolution of marriage summons? If you were Jane, would you stick it out with Bob if you were witness to his sincere efforts in sobriety? As long as I've known Bob, he's been...
[10:08] A decent dude him uh honest to a fault and i think he's been forthright with me about everything for instance he's told me that when he was leaving when he was having trouble being interested in his wife jane so he resorted to watching a porn clip while she was getting ready for a bed in an attempt to gain an erection he even told me she caught him because when she came to bed he left the screen open. He's been fairly outspoken against porn in the past when it comes up in conversation, so I imagine it took a good bit of honesty and humility to even bring that up to me. I know I'm biased since he was my friend before Jane was my friend, but damn, I can't even begin to unravel how a marriage, let alone their marriage, would just break up like that. What are your thoughts? Well, my friend, thoughts I have, and it's It's really, I hate to use this phrase because it's kind of hackneyed, but it's really, really hard to know where to begin. So why would you want people in your life who've broken their own marriage vows at all?
[11:24] They're not going to convince you to stick it out. Now, the number of divorced people I have in my social circle, at least among anybody who's close, the number of divorced people I have is zero. Is zero. Because if you can't keep your vow made before God, the universe, society, family, and friends, and everyone, if you can't keep your vow to stick together no matter what, for better, for worse, and sickness and health, health till death do you part, what do you think is going to happen when you run into marital difficulties? What are they going to say? Is Jane's dad really going to say to Jane, well, you have to stick it out no matter what, when he went through a brutal divorce, in Jane's teens, right? So if you have people who've betrayed their marriage vows around, they're going to counsel you most likely to betray your marriage fast right so that's pretty clear um.
[12:37] I did not find the first year of marriage challenging. That was fine. So family of origin issues, he said, the first year, such as Jane's divorced parents and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and father against each other. So why would you want manipulative, dysfunctional people in your life? Like, why? This is as clear as day, for God's sakes. My God, how many times do I have to repeat this? If you have difficult people in your life, your life becomes difficult. Choose your companions, you choose your future, choose your social circle, you choose your outcomes in life. That's it. It's all there is. The people around you are the train tracks of your life because those are the values you accept, those are the values you treasure, those are the values you will accept. You can't have more integrity than the person around you with the least integrity. You can't have more honesty than the person around you with the least honesty. You can't have more virtue than the least virtuous person around. That's it. That's how it works.
[13:39] Can you be functionally more healthy than your least healthy body part? Oh, one of my arms has gangrene, but the rest of me is fine. You're not fine. It spreads. I honestly don't know how many times I have to say this, and nobody's listening. Drives me a little crazy. Well, they have all of these divorced and dysfunctional and manipulative and half incestuous was emotionally betrayed, blah, blah. Oh boy, their marriage didn't work out. Well, of course it didn't. Oh God.
[14:13] You can't have...
[14:20] A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. You can't be stronger than the weakest person in your social circle. You can't be more mature than the least mature person in your social circle. You can't have a commitment to vows and promises than the person with the least commitment to vows and promises in your environment. Everybody thinks that integrity is just a choice you make, in relationship to your own conscience. No. No, no, no, a thousand times no. Integrity is the choice you make in the people you surround yourself with, because we all need reinforcements with regards to integrity. And if you choose people who have no integrity, that will spread to you. You will lose your integrity.
[15:22] Jane's father had a brutal divorce with Jane's mother. When Jane ran into marital difficulties, her father gave her a place to stay, maybe probably counseled her to do this annulment thing and so on. Of course! How could it be otherwise? Because a brutal divorce is when both of the parties are right-fighting. They're saying, I'm right. Jane's father says, I'm right. Your mother is wrong. The mother says vice versa. There's self-righteousness. And there is an ability to convince yourself that you're an angel. The other person is the devil. And when you have people who take that foundational lack of responsibility in their lives, that I'm just the angel and they're just the devil. I'm perfectly good. I'm reasonable. They're perfectly bad and unreasonable. I'm willing to negotiate. They're just hardening their hearts and I'm telling the truth. When you have people who justify themselves to that degree and don't take responsibility for their choices, that will spread to you, that will spread to Jane, that will spread to Bob, that will spread to everyone in their environment. How are you going to hold yourself to the standards called take goddamn responsibility for your life when you have self-justifying, lying right fighters in your environment? It won't happen.
[16:43] Happen. Virtue in the modern world, it's like an Olympic sport, right? You got, I don't know, what is it, soccer, 11 players. You got 11 players on your team and you want to win the Olympic sport called virtue and integrity in the modern world.
[17:05] So, let's say that you and one other guy, you and Doug, Doug, you and Doug are fantastic soccer players. And the other nine players on your team are totally crap. They're terrible. They trip, they fall, they tie their shoelaces together, they fake injuries even before they get on the pitch, They red card themselves, and they keep catching the ball like it's basketball. You got two good players and nine players who are just terrible. What happens to that team? Everyone around you is a teammate in your conscience. Everyone around you is a teammate in your integrity, and you want to go for the gold. You cannot have bad players on your team. If you want to have bad players on your team, that's fine. Then don't go for the gold.
[18:14] If you say, well, you know, I want my dysfunctional family around because I love them. I love them. All right, that's fine. Then you love dysfunction. You love dysfunction. you love manipulation, you love betrayal, you love narcissism, you love self-righteousness, self-justification, you love falsehood. Okay, so that's what you love, that's what you're attached to, that's what you prefer.
[18:45] I mean, if you want to get to the Olympic gold and you only put people on your soccer team who are related to you, you're going to lose. Then just look, just say, we're going to stay in trash planet. We're going to stay in trash world. We're going to stay in the underworld. We're going to stay with manipulative, self-righteous, justifying, NPC, nonsense, defensive, lying people, right? We're going to do that. Okay, then accept that. We're going to have a pretty crap marriage that's going to be constantly buffeted and undermined by all the dysfunctions of people around us, and then just accept that. I mean, but, oh, we're going to have a great marriage surrounded by terrible people.
[19:26] Yes, we're going to get the Olympic gold when we hire eight grandmothers to be our teammates. All right, so.
[19:40] So, you have weak men around, according to what you wrote, And I don't know the truth of any of this, right? I'm just going by your reports. So obviously I don't know any independent truth. So I'm just going by what you're saying. I'm going to assume that what you say is true. Of course, I don't know for sure, but happy wife, happy life. So you've got appeasers who aren't even close to being equal with their wives. This happy wife, happy life stuff is just terrible. It's just a self-destructive lie. Yeah, passive weak fathers, okay.
[20:24] So, Bob was subject to his mother's wild vacillations and moods, along with torrents of insane verbal abuse when he was a child. Okay. So, I'm not sure if I remember this, but I think so. Were these abusers and people who put Jane through a terrible divorce in her teens, a very vulnerable time? Were they at the wedding? I mean, I assume you were there. Were they at the wedding? Okay, so if you have vicious child abusers at your wedding, it is a celebration of immorality. It is a circle from hell. It is a pentagram pretending to be a wedding ring. You have, and it sounds like they're unrepentant, you have unrepentant, vicious child abusers at your wedding, it is a celebration not of love, but of contempt. It is not a celebration of connectedness, but of exploitation. It is not a celebration of unity, but of coercion and division. It is not a celebration of making someone whole, but breaking them into a thousand, thousand, thousand pieces. So that's the life. That's the life that Bob and Jane and you choose. To be surrounded by messed up dysfunctional people.
[21:47] That's your life. That's your life. This is what's going to happen. Choose the actions, you choose the consequences, right? If you choose to jump off a cliff and then you're surprised when you fall, I really don't have any sympathy.
[22:04] Oh. All right.
[22:10] So then when you're living in trash planet, planet shitty things happen all the all the all the all the all the all the time you just pinball bing bing bing bing bouncing off terrible things happening so-and-so had a big fight so-and-so moved out so-and-so was sick so then this one of course there was a suicide and so on right, that's a suicide that's a suicide, so three-month-old marriage 13-year-old nephew had killed himself gunshot to the head 13 year old killed himself, it's tragic it's awful and frankly you should be a thousand fucking miles away from any environment where this stuff is going on, you should be in no way shape or form anywhere near this kind of activity or event anywhere near so, Bob and Jane got married into an orbit where a 13-year-old boy shoots himself in the head.
[23:28] Are you crazy? Is he crazy? Why would you want to be anywhere near this kind of horrifying, absolute catastrophe? You got to run from this kind of stuff.
[23:45] Because what happened was, according to what you say, which again I'm going to accept as true, the nephew kills himself and the family's in turmoil and Bob can't sleep and Bob can't eat and Bob doesn't want to have sex with his wife although I can't imagine that anyone would want to feel, sexual excitement during a time of such absolute catastrophe, so this is what happens this is what happens when you stay around dysfunctional people you get manipulations you get messes, you get betrayals you get alcoholism you get, dysfunction, drug addiction, divorces, maybe the occasional suicide. When you're in this environment, this is the kind of shit that's regularly going to come down the conveyor belt of your life towards your open mouth. So, you say, Bob was distraught to the point where he picked up alcohol again, after five years' sobriety. Right. So, as you know from the stuff that I've worked on for many years, In my obviously amateur view, addiction is a pain management approach.
[25:05] To dealing with the agony caused by early childhood trauma. So you spend a lot of time sewing up these wounds. It never heals completely. You can sew it up as the song goes. You can sew it up, but you still feel the tear. So it is early wounds that cause alcoholism or that make you more susceptible to whatever addictive situation you've got going on and so if you're going to stick around the family that gave you the wounds that you're bathing in alcohol to deal with then you are simply on the countdown down clock to drinking again. You're on the countdown clock to drinking again. So some people, you know, they have surgery and they're given like, I don't know, Percocets or some sort of opiates or painkillers or whatever, right? And then they take the painkillers while the pain of the surgery is going on and then the pain of the surgery goes away and they stop taking this stuff. Should they have another surgery at some point in the future, they might take more painkillers so the painkillers are associated with new wounds. Yes.
[26:19] Honestly, it's completely dispiriting that you don't mention anything about separating from toxic people. Well, you know, I told them that the family is dysfunctional, messed up, and if they want to start a new life and a new leaf, they need to get this sorted out in the two years or two and a half years that they were together before they got married. They need to sort things out with their family of origin. Get them good or get them gone. on what's the matter with you why don't you help your friend why don't you help him have him call in something given the book real-time relationships maybe you did but you don't say anything about it here so i can only go with what you've and you said a lot here you didn't say anything about that you didn't say anything about the they shouldn't have been around these dysfunctional messed up screwed up people, immature, manipulative people who raise boys to shoot themselves in the head. Why? Did you tell him that your marriage will not survive being around such dysfunctional people? I mean, it may survive in terms of you'll stay married, but it won't survive in any meaningful loving fashion.
[27:28] Oh no, they made a vow that he was going to have some leadership, in the family. It's like, but then, if male leadership in certain areas within the family is important, then what do you do with these weak-ass, spineless, boomer jellyfish, desiccated, half-bald non-entities? Oh, just keep them around. Everything will be fine. So he picked up alcohol again after five years sobriety. No. He picked up alcohol because you didn't tell him to get the dysfunctional people either fixed or gone.
[28:08] It's on you my friend it's on you because when you're someone's friend you're supposed to care for them you're supposed to love bob you're supposed to love jane and if you moved heaven and earth to try and get bob to fix his relationships or get away, then you're sabotaging him this is and there's nothing in this oh i should have done this i I should have done that. You're sabotaging him. I don't know why you want to sabotage him, but this is blindingly obvious and you've listened to this show for a long time, I assume. So why aren't you telling him what he needs to hear? That if you're around shitty people, your life is shitty. You are courting disaster to stay in the orbit of messed up, dysfunctional, manipulative, predatory people. Cold people.
[29:14] I'm going to practice swimming in the Bay of Sharks. Because, you know, I'm not going to bump into anyone there because no one's swimming there. And if you don't say, you know, it's called the Bay of Sharks, you could lose a leg. And you're like, yeah, yeah, go for it, man. I'll come down, I'll cheer you on I don't know why you want Bob to fail I don't know why you want Jane to fail but if you withheld from them the necessary information, then you're just throwing boat anchors at a drowning guy and you say, ah yes, but I did tell him this I did tell him this, I did tell him this it's like, okay, so you realize how this is spread, right? This is spread it's gone from the messed up family to Bob and Jane, to you, to me and I'm stopping it right here, dysfunctional, messed up people are manipulative losers who will drag you down every time, every single day of the week and twice on Sundays, they will drag you down. What is the key to having a great life? Having great people around you. That's it. That's it.
[30:22] How do you have a successful boat voyage? Well, one of the things you probably shouldn't have is enough fucking ballast on your ship to weigh it down and sink it. That's all. How do you win a running race? I can tell you this. Not in a suit of plate armor, you don't. You want to have a great life? Everybody looks within, and I've got to have this, and I've got to learn this skill. No, just, oh God, just have great people around you. That's That's all it is. Oh, God, have the self-respect. Have the self-respect to not have people in your life who drive a child to shoot himself. Stop having people like this in your life. Oh, but we got to be there to help the kids. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't.
[31:26] Is Bob and Jane's life better off for staying in this orbit? Nope did the kid get saved? nope but the trauma spread splash damage is a real thing, so he picked up alcohol because you didn't tell him to get the dysfunctional people out of his life if he wants a happy marriage with Jane and if he says oh well Jane didn't want to get the dysfunctional people out of her life Okay, then don't marry Jane. Don't marry Jane if she won't get her screwed-up, dysfunctional family out of her life. Or anyone. Her friend. It doesn't matter. Choose your companions. Choose your fate. Choose your teammates. Choose victory or loss. You hang around with fat, lazy people, you're going to get fat and lazy. You hang around with people who exercise, you're going to end up exercising. You hang around with people who eat garbage, you'll end up eating garbage. You hang around with people who eat well, you'll end up eating well. You hang around with people who tell the truth, you're going to end up telling the truth. You hang around with people who lie, you're going to end up as a liar.
[32:43] You've listened to this show for a while, your friend Bob starts drinking. Do you say to him, hey, that's probably because you're triggered because the fact is you keep all of these dysfunctional, messed up, screwed up people around in your life. It's going to poison your mind. It's going to poison your marriage. It's going to re-traumatize you. You're going to be like a D-Day veteran going to watch Saving Private Ryan and thinking he can have a nice nap.
[33:08] His mother was violent, verbally, towards him. And the trauma passes from the parents to the boy who killed himself, to Bob, to Jane, to Bob's alcoholism, to the fact that he, after a fight during a night out at the bar. So he told Jane he was at an AA meeting at the time, and then he called from Jane. It got called from jail. Right. Right. Because he lied his ass off to his wife. He told his wife he was going to AA. He went to a bar to drink. He got into a fight. And he got arrested for, as you say, this misdemeanor assault. After he said, I'm never going to drink again, he drank again. He said he was going to an AA meeting. He called from jail. So he's around liars and manipulators, and he becomes a liar and manipulator, or he remains a liar and a manipulator. You choose circumstances, you choose your marriage. You choose your companions, you choose the course of your marriage.
[34:32] So yes the uh he has visitors so uh jane uh brought her father and um.
[34:48] You know i mean he married a woman as you say she has a possible emotionally incestuous relationship with her father. And so Bob betrayed this man's daughter, and this man went to come and talk to Bob with his daughter. And Bob chickened out of the conversation. You sit down, you look the man in the eye, and you have that conversation, right? So that's what you do, right? So he refused to sit down and talk with them at all, right? So, you lied, you told this man's daughter you weren't going to drink, you started drinking. You told this man's daughter you were going to AA, you went to a bar, got drunk, got into a fight, got arrested. What do you think a father's going to do? I mean, imagine if you have a daughter and this is who she married. And then he won't even sit down and have that conversation? No. No, no, no. So
[36:12] I get the in sickness and in health stuff for sure but you want to, the in sickness and in health is supposed to be around things that happen to you that are unpredictable right so in sickness and in health is if you get struck by some random illness, which certainly happened to me, if you get struck by some random illness, you're supposed to hang on to someone and not just dump them because they happen to get sick through no particular fault of their own. That's what in sickness and in health means. If someone ends up in hospital and paralyzed because they got into an accident while driving drunk, that is a different matter. In sickness and in health refers to things that happen to you, not things that you do, right?
[37:12] So, you know, we're in or we're out of the money. So there are oscillations in the financial ebb and flow of life. Trust me, I know there are oscillations in the financial ebb and flow of life. So it's saying if you happen to come upon hard times through no fault of your own, right? I mean, you have a business and then some big giant conglomerate starts a company in that space and elbows you out and you lose 75% of your revenue or, you know, I told the truth, got deplatformed and lost even more than that. So there's oscillations and vacillations in financial life through no fault of your own.
[37:56] Or the government passes some law or AI comes along and your graphics design skills become less valuable. Whatever, right? Yes, there's vacillations in the up and down of life. Money comes sometimes, money goes, whatever, right? That's those natural vacillations where it is not your doing primarily. Maybe you could have been a bit more alert to upcoming competition, but it's not your fault primarily that misfortune is happening to you. However, it's a little different if you keep betting on the ponies or going down to the Greyhound racetrack and putting all your money on Slim Jim number 666 and you keep blowing all the money through a gambling addiction. Well, that's not something that's happening to you. That is something you're doing.
[38:55] It's the difference between getting roofied through no fault of your own and having a voluntary affair. So what is it that happened to Bob through no fault of his own or through little fault of his own? Well, Bob chose to stay in the orbit of a family so elementally fucked up that a 13-year-old child shot himself in the head with a gun. Now that's Bob's choice to stay in that environment. And if you didn't warn Bob about it, and you've not mentioned one goddamn thing about that, if you didn't warn Bob about that, that's on you too, because sometimes we really need those eyes in the back of our heads, right? We really need people to watch our backs. It's really hard to see behind us, and it's really hard to see our family for what they are, because we've been raised with them, and we've been conditioned by them. It's like the old Fish in lukewarm water What water? Oh, what time What do you think of the water? What water? Like you don't You're not conscious of gravity Every single moment of the day It's just A force and a function You take for granted.
[40:19] Did you Tell Bob That you care about so much My God You care about Bob To the point where You're chewing up my printer With endless Ink, You care about Bob You just love Bob so much You're thinking about their marriage And how much you care about Bob, And yet you let him rot In this hellhole Of screwed up people And you're down there too Splash damage, Family To parents To Bob To Jane To you Five layers All from the source of the screwed-up family. Is it so strange how a relationship that was so promising can just be jettisoned for a couple of months? How one tragedy can set off a series of events that change the course of so many lives? Oh, it's so random! My gosh, who could have possibly seen these dominoes coming except for me and every other sane person in the universe who's been talking about this for close to 20 years.
[41:36] If you have people in your life who've broken their marriage vows, you'll be more likely to break your marriage vows. You know, divorces spread, right? Dysfunctional spreads, dysfunction spreads, divorces spread, addiction spread. Lies spread. The lack of integrity spreads.
[41:58] It wasn't a series of events. It wasn't an earthquake out of nowhere. It wasn't an asteroid that hit a car. It wasn't stairs that collapsed with no warning. Oops. Those are the vacillations and accidents of life, and we have great sympathy for those. Somebody gets accidentally sick through no fault of their own, you don't divorce them. Somebody's a chain smoker and gets sick, that's a different matter. If you beg them to quit, they don't quit, they get sick. Hey. People, but then, of course, you're choosing someone who doesn't listen to you, right? It's not accidents that happen to people for the most part. It is the entirely predictable consequences of very specific choices. And you, who listen to this show, know the fuck better. You know better. You should have warned them that if they keep screwed up, dysfunctional people in their lives, their lives will also be disastrous.
[43:17] And it only takes one. It only takes one. You know, we got five chefs working on the soup. The soup is fantastic, perfect, and beautiful. Only one of those chefs drained the vein, peed into the soup tureen. Only one. The other four, they didn't do anything, but only one pea... Well, how much pea does it take to screw up the soup? Any amount of pea.
[43:49] It's like you watch Bob pour his entire life savings into a business and then you counsel that he hire a kleptomaniac to be his accountant. And only you know about the kleptomania, Bob doesn't. And then you're just sabotaging Bob's. Oh, I've been a friend of Bob's for such a long time. No, you haven't. I was at their wedding, and they rained. Oh, what a good guy Bob is. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, really? Oh, oh, the family where there was a brutal divorce turned on someone. What do you think a brutal divorce is other than turning on the person you claimed you were going to love for the rest of your life? Oh, it's so surprising. I can't. How could the, how could the, how could the family where they all turned on each other like a pack of jackals end up turning on Bob? up. It's weird. Well, they lied and have unstable bonds? The people who had a brutal divorce lied and have unstable bonds? What could this mean? What cosmic mystery can be unraveled here without the Rosetta Stone of two and two make four?
[44:58] Jesus. God above. And you write all of this. You write all of this. to little old me. What is the matter with you? I'm sorry to be so brutal, but what is the matter with you? You know, he's honest. He's honest to a fault.
[45:28] I can't even begin to unravel how a marriage could just break up like that. It's a mystery. I don't know. Oh, it's, oh my God, who could possibly crack this hieroglyphics? Who can decipher these alien scrawls? Like kanji contrails in a windy sky, writing on the surface of a lake, who could possibly unravel? How people surrounded by corrupt betrayers could themselves end up in a situation of corrupt betrayal.
[46:12] Don't play dumb with me. Don't even try. This precious, pearl-clutching, Victorian, smelling-salt-couch-fainting preciousness. Oh, it's so mysterious. It's so stiff. How could this possibly come to pass? It's so... Oh, my God. This is a family... where a little boy shot himself. Shot himself. Verbal abuse. Quasi-incestuous emotional clinginess. A vicious, brutal divorce. Weak men. Bullying dominant. Women. A manipulative stepmother who sets father and mother against each other.
[47:08] Well, my family took a long, slow dump in my sandwich, Stef. Why don't I like the taste of my sandwich? Don't try, man. Don't try. Don't spin this gossamer web of infinite bullshit around my brain. It's ridiculous. Surrounded by corrupt people, you enabled all of this, and now you come to me, huh, the mysteries are too deep to possibly fathom. I don't know. No, this is pitiful, man. It's pitiful. Look, be around corrupt people. I mean, hey, it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle, maybe for the kids, but not for the adults. You can choose to be around corrupt, lying, manipulative, destructive people who cause the suicide of a little boy. Yep, you can choose to be around those people. But then don't write to me and tell me that it's an incomprehensible mystery, that's sad and I won't have it.
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