END OF A MAMA'S BOY! Freedomain Call In - Transcript


0:00 - Opening Up
12:11 - Reflecting on Parental Separation
16:15 - Mysterious Parental Relationship
22:15 - Revealing Childhood Discipline
25:53 - Frequency of Parental Discipline
31:31 - High School Relationship
37:37 - Parental Screen Time vs Parenting Influence
38:28 - Fading High School Relationship
38:59 - Drying up. I think vagin, I think vagina.
39:42 - University Struggles and Failures
1:02:28 - Emotional Expression and Honesty
1:07:22 - Unveiling Passive Aggression
1:09:50 - Exploring Emotional Disconnect
1:14:51 - Confrontation with Father
1:16:50 - Shocking Reaction from Father
1:19:09 - Enthusiasm and Childhood Memories
1:22:57 - The Bond with Parents
1:29:09 - Narcissism and Lack of Listening
1:35:14 - Connecting with Girlfriend
1:40:16 - Financial Struggles with Girlfriend
1:49:42 - Conflict with Mother Over Rent
1:55:05 - Landlord and Household Details
1:57:14 - Moving Between Aunties
1:59:19 - Resolving Issues with Mother
2:00:47 - Rebuilding Life and Providing Rent
2:01:42 - Girlfriend's Desperation and Homelessness
2:33:14 - Mother's Boyfriend's Influence
2:36:59 - Worth Something
2:40:45 - Apologize and Restitution

Long Summary

In this emotional and personal conversation, I had the opportunity to speak with a caller who expressed feelings of stagnation and nervousness about sharing personal challenges. We delved into their upbringing, focusing on interactions with their parents, memories of discipline, and experiences with their father's unconventional lifestyle and conspiracy theories. The caller shared insights about their mother's work ethic, challenges in forming connections with family members, and reflections on feeling adrift and uncertain about their life path.

Throughout our discussion, we explored the complexities of familial dynamics, personal growth, and navigating relationships with parents. The caller opened up about their struggles at university, failed attempts at academic success despite a love for history, and feelings of neglect and disappointment from their upbringing. Stefan prompted the caller to reflect on specific details, encouraging self-reflection on significant life events and decisions, while offering tips on changing their mindset about failure.

We also delved into the caller's suppressed anger and resentment towards their parents, which hindered their ability to express emotions authentically. Stefan highlighted the importance of understanding emotional connections and being truthful and open about feelings, linking the caller's struggles to past experiences with their parents. The conversation led to a reexamination of the caller's relationships with their parents, past romantic relationships, and the impact of family dynamics on emotional expression and honesty.

As the conversation progressed, we touched on the caller's challenges with his girlfriend, financial difficulties due to a scam, job loss, and moving between family members' houses. We explored the dynamics of family relationships, the caller's struggles with asserting their needs and desires while feeling stifled by family expectations, and the journey towards finding independence and breaking free from familial influence. Ultimately, our dialogue underscored the importance of self-awareness, seeking therapy, and making amends with others as part of the journey towards personal growth and empowerment.


[0:00] Opening Up

[0:00] I'm not too bad. I'm a little nervous, to be honest. I'm not really sure why.

[0:04] You're about to talk about?

[0:05] About me.

[0:06] Great challenges in your life. So, yes, I'm all ears. So, hit me up and let me know how I can best help.

[0:14] Yeah, well, like I said in my message originally, I'm 26. I still live with my mum at the moment. My own. I've got a warehouse job. It's been going on for a few months now. It's okay, but I feel like I want more from life, and I realise I kind of, feel like i want i feel like i've wanted more from life for a while now um i think life's been kind of i feel like i've been kind of drifting through life a lot recently just kind of accepting what's given to me and not really you know pushing for more essentially um and getting quite down about that as well um.

[0:52] Did you grow up with a father.

[0:54] Not really my parents like when i I was about, I want to say five, about five.

[1:01] And do you have much memory with your father, memories of your father?

[1:06] From a very early age, basically nothing. I would go and say, obviously, my mom got custody of us, me and my brother.

[1:15] Wait, what do you mean, full custody?

[1:17] Well, we'd go and see him at weekends. He'd be living from flat to flat. He lived in a tent at one point. He lived on a boat at another point.

[1:26] He lived in a tent?

[1:27] He did yeah he what is he Bear Grylls what are you talking about I think that's probably the image he had of himself in his mind, but it was uh he'd find some like public land that he could stay at for cheap money okay like a two-man fold-up tent and he would stay in there at times yeah did.

[1:45] You stay with him in the tent.

[1:49] Yeah yeah a couple of times some cold pretty weird nights in a tent yeah.

[1:55] Did he have a job.

[1:58] Not that i can remember no no i don't even remember him really looking for work or looking for a proper house to stay eventually he had to get um well eventually his mom bought him a place um this kind of crappy rundown house in the middle of a city uh and he's been there ever since i think he's been there about 15 years now.

[2:18] Well, what did he live on? I mean, you've got to have money for food and stuff, right? Did he hunt? On the Lord's land? I mean, what the hell?

[2:27] I think benefits.

[2:30] Oh, so he was living off the taxpayer?

[2:32] Yeah, yeah.

[2:33] That's great. So he's a parasite.

[2:36] A man who was very into his government things and being away from the government. He had a pretty similar...

[2:44] Oh, he was a rebel living on other people's money through the government.

[2:48] Yeah okay so.

[2:49] A total hypocrite and kind of a parasite on society right.

[2:52] Yeah i've kind of lived with that hypocrisy on my mind all for my life really it's been hard to because i i guess young me wanted to maintain a relationship with my dad but also try and put up with this hypocrisy and it's yeah and do.

[3:09] You know why your parents married and why they divorced.

[3:14] I don't actually i have i have no idea why they're married i they're completely different from people. I don't really know how they met. I certainly don't know why they divorced because I get two different stories about that. My mom says that my dad initiated the divorce and my dad says my mom initiated the divorce. I've been living pretty much my entire life with these two polar opposite people. And I mean, even when my mom got with another boyfriend after that, they were together 15 years or so. I mean, even they seem like really opposite people.

[3:48] Was your father very good looking when he was younger?

[3:51] When he was younger? I do have a picture of him somewhere. He was okay looking. I think quite early balding.

[3:59] No, no, that's a huge plus. Let me tell you. There's nothing sexier than going bald in your 20s, objectively speaking, obviously. Okay, so the guy that your mom got together with after your dad, was he a good guy? Was he a good stepdad?

[4:25] Well, the step-up is that he provided. I mean, he did a good job. He was an electrician. I'm pretty sure he's retired now. Um, yeah, he'd be up at like five backs, like 12 hours later. So he's a, he's a hard worker and provided, but that's from my perspective, that's as much as I can say, really. I don't, I don't, I never really bonded with him. I was thankful for what he could do, but that's kind of it.

[4:48] So tell me what you mean. So how old were you when you got together, when your, your mom and your stepdad got together?

[4:58] Um, around about the age of parents divorce. So maybe five or five or six.

[5:03] So you sorry your mother divorced your dad and got together with this guy very quickly.

[5:09] Uh yeah i kind of just remember him being in the house one day and sort of realizing he'd been there for a few days after a while and sort of realizing oh okay i guess i guess this guy's living here now, yeah okay.

[5:27] And you'd never had much connection with him.

[5:29] No not at all i i i tried i would go like swimming with him um sometimes um it's it's really hard to talk to him i mean he'd get home from work, and just kind of slouch on the couch maybe crack open a beer well definitely crack open a beer and that would kind of be it and i would hear them too kind of falling out with each other and arguing giving over i don't really know just everything um i was always kind of remembering like i don't i don't know how those two got together either there's such polar opposite people.

[6:02] So you said you assumed that he's retired uh that means i assume that your parents uh sorry your mother and your stepfather have separated.

[6:12] Yeah yeah sorry they separated um for about five years ago now and.

[6:18] Do you know why they separated.

[6:20] Uh i yeah he actually apparently he promised to marry her at some point, 15 years later there's nothing on that and i think i think it just kind of set in for maybe too late but uh yeah they were just kind of very different people different how, uh well he was like i said very hard working and very job and money focused and And thinking about it, that's kind of what she's become now, nowadays.

[6:52] Well, I mean, if he's very different from your father, but they're both opposite to your mother, your mother remains a bit of an enigma.

[6:59] That's kind of been on my mind as well. There's some very clear issues with my dad, but I've been kind of wondering how my mom got with these people. She chose them, after all.

[7:10] Okay, so what's your mom like?

[7:13] Well, now she's pretty hardworking, and now she's the one who's kind of money-focused and work-focused, and I've found it pretty hard to connect with her. Now she's the one who kind of gets home from work and then slouches in front of the couch thinking about it.

[7:32] Okay. And what field does she work in?

[7:36] She's a school attendance officer, so she works for the council.

[7:40] Oh so government worker.

[7:41] Yeah yeah all.

[7:43] Right and she's not dated since your stepdad left.

[7:48] She has she had a boyfriend for a couple of months uh and then they split up i don't really remember him too much um and then she's been with her current boyfriend now for, about four years or so and i i do like him i get on with him thankfully i don't see him too often but he's he's nice and.

[8:06] What's happened to your relationship with your bio dad.

[8:10] So about a year ago I defood him as you would say I just I kind of had enough of his hypocrisy I always had enough of the way he was, treating my family as well especially my brother so basically when he moved to that place which I see me still at now, it's a very run down area his neighbours have been shouting at each other and screaming and I'm pretty sure stabbing each other as well, for quite a while um and it's it's just not a nice place to be and obviously my brother was hesitant to ever go and see him and did he.

[8:49] Ever get a job or has he basically been on the dole his life.

[8:52] He got a very basic kind of minimum wage job at this uh like cake tin cleaning factory which was very poorly managed and, And he said he was going to sue them a couple of times, and he never actually did. Yeah, so he got some kind of job, and then he moved it back into some kind of electronics job. He was an electronics engineer many years ago.

[9:23] Wait, so he's trained as an electronics engineer?

[9:26] Oh, this is a very intelligent person. When it comes to maths and science, he's deeply intelligent. I kind of see him as a hugely wasted potential of a person.

[9:39] A hugely wasted potential? I mean, isn't he just a loser?

[9:44] Yeah.

[9:46] Do you have any sort of thoughts as to why he betrayed his potential to that degree? Yeah.

[9:56] Um, well, from what he's told me, there was, um, he went down the road of what people would call conspiracy theories, I guess. And that kind of took over his life to the point where he was thinking that there were doctors and lawyers, like, convening against him in particular.

[10:16] Well, it's pre-COVID, right?

[10:18] Yeah, this is pre-COVID.

[10:19] Okay, because, you know, I can understand that a little post-COVID, but pre-COVID. And was he, my assumption is that he used drugs, but I could be wrong, of course.

[10:31] Not to my knowing, no. No, he liked to drink, for sure. His little fridge was always full of some beers, but no smoking or anything. No. Okay.

[10:42] All right. And do you have any idea why he went down the conspiracy theory route?

[10:47] Uh well he said the story he told me is that he said he saw a video of um 9-11 that's what kicked it off and he used his engineering mind to say that oh the buildings came down at three four speed so they must have been you know bombed at the base or whatever um i think i think that's initially what set it off and then from there it's builderberg groups info wars you know well okay.

[11:13] So let's let's say that he went down this conspiracy theories i mean there are conspiracies right obviously.

[11:21] Yeah i'm not yeah i mean.

[11:22] I mean it's literally a crime in in every legal system conspiracy so there are conspiracy theories i guess my question is why did the conspiracy theories that he believed in why did they like what was going on in his life that that that became a kind of substitute for life, if that makes sense.

[11:40] At that point, I mean, was that 2001? I mean, as far as I know, he still had this really stable job. I mean, I think he was on 50 grand a year and that's back then. So, I mean, if he'd just stayed on course for that, it would probably be much better. But yeah, I really don't know. Like looking back, I just...

[11:59] So when, sorry, when did he fall off the wagon as far as productivity went, like having a real job and stuff?

[12:06] I can't remember exactly, but it'd be very early 2000s. So 2002, three, four, five.

[12:11] Reflecting on Parental Separation

[12:12] So this is obviously long after you, uh, long after he left the family. Is that right?

[12:23] Long, long after I'd left the family.

[12:25] No, sorry. Long after he'd left the family.

[12:28] Oh, right. Uh, yeah. Well, I think he got down that route of four before then, and then my parents divorced. A few years after, a couple of years after.

[12:38] Okay, so you went down that rabbit hole. And did he end up with other relationships of any substance?

[12:47] I think in all these 20-plus years, I don't think he's ever dated or anything like that.

[12:53] He's never dated?

[12:55] No, never spoken to anyone in that sort of way. He's very much isolated himself in that little house he's in now.

[13:05] I mean, doesn't he have a sex drive? Doesn't he have a romantic drive? I mean, what does this mean? He doesn't date at all in like 20 years?

[13:15] I'm guessing he does, but I've never... No, he's never said that he's seen anyone. So I don't know what's happening with that drive.

[13:25] Has he at all wrestled with... Well, actually, let me ask you, when was the last time... I mean, you said you separated from him. I'm sorry to hear that, of course, but I can certainly understand it. When it comes to his life as a whole, has he wrestled with the contradiction that these conspiracy theories, they don't seem to have done much good for his life as a whole?

[13:48] I mean, he said for years, he said for years and years that he would, you know, try and get some work and move back down closer to us so we could see him more often and sort his life out. I think I, I definitely clung onto that as a, as a child growing up, I was hopeful that he could like turn things around and I could see him more often because it got to the point where I'd see him once every few months, essentially for maybe a weekend.

[14:13] And what age were you when it really began to fall off that way?

[14:18] I think early 20 because i think in the past couple of years and.

[14:22] Did he ever give you any particular kind of instruction on how to live i guess it's kind of tough to take instruction on how to live from a guy living in a tent but did he ever give you i mean any any advice that that, mattered or or was a value or meant something to you.

[14:41] Yeah i mean he had he had lots of good things to say like that like like financial advice like like cryptocurrencies and investing and you know starting.

[14:51] Financial advice well yeah yeah this guy guy in the tent being hypocrite yep here's how you manage money son now if you can just check the mosquitoes in the tent that would be excellent, okay so he had things that didn't make much sense to you did he have anything that's any any advice that did make sense to you i guess he couldn't give you any advice on dating right.

[15:15] No i never got that from him no.

[15:17] Uh did he give you advice on friendships or integrity or virtue or anything like that aside.

[15:24] From they you should go out more and socialize not really.

[15:28] The guy living in the tent? Sorry, don't mean to laugh. The guy living in the tent and the hovel in the rat-infested clatter of small arms fire neighborhood is telling you to go out and socialize more?

[15:40] Yeah, that one. That one, yeah.

[15:41] Did he ever give you any advice that wasn't totally laughable?

[15:47] I don't think so. It was always kind of laughable to me in the back of my mind, especially as I grew up, just seeing the raging hypocrisy of this guy.

[15:56] Right, okay. And did he ever tell you about his childhood?

[16:01] No, no. I don't know much about his childhood. There's only one little story I know from his childhood, which is that when he was being bottle-fed by his mum, his dad came in, yanked the bottle from her hands, threw it in the fireplace, and then said, now how are you going to feed it?

[16:14] It? Nice. It.

[16:15] Mysterious Parental Relationship

[16:16] Yeah, that's all I know. So, yeah, I'm glad I have it.

[16:18] Yes, yes. I'm sure that the problems with your father were about 9-11. Yeah, that's it. That's the big concerns about your father is 9-11. Okay, got it. And what about your mother in terms of discipline? I assume your father didn't have any particular habits of discipline towards you. What about your mother in terms of like you did things that she didn't want you to do or something like that.

[16:45] Again it's been kind of hard to take advice from her like with her being so work focused i guess like i guess i kind of struggle to find a lot of work and to sort of be inspired by her when i see her exhausted from her work working overtime hours complaining about it left right center getting home in front of the tv and drinking you know it's it's it's a little little hard to say it's yeah it's hard to take advice from her it's also hard to take advice from her on like food sorry she's.

[17:18] A mother who works for the government and works too hard.

[17:23] Yeah.

[17:25] Well, that makes her extra bad. The only thing worse than a lazy government worker is a hardworking government worker making life difficult for everyone else. All right. And how, I mean, how many hours a week does she work or did she work when you were a kid?

[17:43] Yeah, I don't remember working when I was really young, but I do remember working in a school sort of preteen years, working in kind of the offices. I'm not sure exactly what her work was doing there but yeah.

[17:58] Do you remember the question, yeah how many hours I mean was she working 60 hours a week 80 hours a week 50 I mean I know it's hard to remember in terms of details but was she gone a lot.

[18:12] About 50 maybe slightly less around about 50.

[18:15] Okay my guess is I mean I've been an entrepreneur so I guess that's hard work for a government A government worker? Okay. Yeah. And who took care of you when your mother was working?

[18:27] Well, luckily, she was working with kids in school, so her working hours would be kind of school hours. So, in fact, she worked in the school, like the lower school next to where I went for quite a few years, so I'd finish school and kind of go home with her. So she was at home.

[18:42] Sorry, if she's working kids' hours, how's she working 50 hours a week?

[18:47] Yeah, maybe that's like 40, 45.

[18:50] No no sorry it's in school nine to three give or take.

[18:53] Uh here it's like 8 30 to 3 30 something that's about seven hours but yeah i should be out of the house for like eight or nine hours all.

[19:02] Right so that's 35 hours.

[19:03] Uh yeah i'm not i'm not.

[19:06] Trying to nitpick here i'm just trying to understand that.

[19:09] Yeah that's fair enough yeah yeah yeah about 35 hours.

[19:14] Okay, so, because you're saying she's working two extra days, right? 15 hours, seven and a half, right, each? Yeah. So, if she's working 35 hours with you, how do we get to the extra two days of work? I mean, did she work nights or weekends or at home?

[19:31] Yeah, I think I'm getting my stories muddled up, because I'd say more recently she's taken up a lot more hours with her current line of work.

[19:37] Okay, so, did you go to daycare when you were very little?

[19:40] Uh yeah i have some memories of of vague memories of daycare and.

[19:45] Do you have any idea what age you were when your mom went back to work and put you in daycare.

[19:54] Uh sorry what age i was when when i.

[19:58] I mean some some moms go back to work like a six weeks some six months some six years do you have an idea.

[20:09] Year three or four maybe three or four years.

[20:12] Oh so okay so she stayed home with you for the first couple of years of your life and she didn't work is that right i.

[20:20] Don't know for certain but that's that's the yeah i think so.

[20:23] Sorry i'm not sure you do you not have memories from back then.

[20:27] Not really no oh.

[20:29] You don't have memories.

[20:29] Not from really early like two or three no.

[20:33] No, sorry, you said she was, three or four you went, she stayed home with you and didn't work. So is this when your father was working, and he was making his 50 large a year, and is that what was happening, that your father was paying the bills and your mother was staying home with you?

[20:49] Yes, yeah, I do have a vague memory of, for some reason, going to see him at work, yeah. Yeah.

[20:56] Okay. So your mom's staying home with you, and then you go to daycare, she goes back to work, and from then on, you're in school or daycare. At some point, did you become a latchkey kid, like that sort of home from school? Oh, no, because your mom would come home with you at the same time, right?

[21:12] For a little bit, yeah.

[21:16] And how did discipline work? I mean, if you did things that your mom didn't want you to do, how did that play? Did she spank? Did she yell? Did she time out? Did she lecture? Like, how did it go?

[21:27] I don't remember many hittings, maybe once or twice. I thought about this the other day. I do remember kind of just, I must have been like four years old, just pinching her arm for some reason. I was just curious. I don't know. I was a kid. And she kind of pushed me forward and spanked me for that. um like bare.

[21:45] Hand on the on the butt is that right i.

[21:47] Think so yeah and.

[21:48] Were your pants up or down.

[21:50] Uh i think okay.

[21:52] Got it and that you said that just happened once or twice.

[21:57] Yeah yeah i don't god i do remember my dad's um hitting me a couple of times as well one time on his on his lovely boat that he had um i can't I remember when it was over. I do remember him having a go at me for, like, chewing food too loudly.

[22:12] Oh, yeah. My dad was not a fan of slurping your tea.

[22:15] Revealing Childhood Discipline

[22:15] Yeah, yeah. Young Molyneux, right? Yeah. Okay.

[22:19] And so, but obviously there were times when your parents disapproved of or disagreed with your actions more than once or twice. What happened?

[22:30] Mainly just yelling. I don't remember a lot of hits, but mainly just a lot of yelling at me.

[22:36] And what would be yelled like was it name calling was it just general frustration do you remember roughly and it may have changed over time but what what was the yelling to do with what was it referencing.

[22:52] Well it's attracting quite recently i've struggled to remember what it's what it was over even just things like.

[22:57] No no no sorry not what it was over that's not what i was asking what i was asking is what's the content right is it uh you never listen uh i'm so so frustrated you're dumb like i i don't know like what was the content i'm not trying to prime you i'm just kind of curious what the content of the yelling was uh.

[23:12] From my best memory uh it was mainly things like you're not listening i would say yeah.

[23:18] Okay so from your best memory i assume then the yelling what faded out pretty young yeah yeah okay so when did they stop yelling, How old were you? Roughly.

[23:38] Maybe early teens, I think.

[23:41] Oh, so that's quite a bit of yelling, right? I mean, from being a toddler, I assume, to early teens, that's like 10 years, right?

[23:49] Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't say it was frequent yelling. I'm not trying to side with them. I hope I'm not trying to side with them.

[23:56] No, no, I just want the facts. I'm not judging, right? I just want the facts. And so how often you only hit once or twice? how often was there where you yelled at by each each parent i assumed that the electrician was not he didn't do much.

[24:12] Unless you got in the.

[24:14] Way between him and the tv or something.

[24:18] He didn't do too much yelling i do i do remember a couple of times in doing it and it was quite loud and so there was quite a big strong guy like six foot plus, you know quite strong in his in his youth and um yeah i just remember like banging my fork against the table or something and he kind of flipping a few things over and shouting and saying oh why don't we just destroy everything in the end wait.

[24:40] Flipping a so you're banging sorry how old were you here.

[24:43] Uh maybe 13 14 so.

[24:48] You're banging your the heel of your fork on the table and what he pulls a full stanley kowalski and just flips plates over and stuff.

[24:56] I think a plate yeah i could place matt and yeah Yeah.

[25:01] Why don't we just destroy everything? I mean, I assume that wasn't humorous.

[25:05] Bit of an escalation. No, no, it wasn't. He was pretty angry.

[25:10] Okay, so he's a bit of a lunatic that way, right? And what about your parents, biological parents, how often would they raise their voice at you from the babyhood or early toddlerhood to early teens?

[25:27] I think... memory most of my dad was that he didn't there wasn't so much shouting it was just sort of really stern kind of quiet quite close up to me kind of lectures um quite quite in my face sometimes and.

[25:46] How god man how often.

[25:49] I can only ask this so.

[25:51] Many times before i'm gonna.

[25:52] Lose my shit um how.

[25:53] Often did this.

[25:53] Frequency of Parental Discipline

[25:54] Happen a couple times a month sorry you have asked that a couple times.

[25:56] Times a month. Okay. And what about your mom?

[25:59] A little less, but nearly just as frequent.

[26:04] Okay. So you really only got, I mean, I assume what would happen if they wanted to correct your behavior, change your behavior? I mean, usually if you're parenting, you want to adjust your kid's behavior more than a couple of times a month, right?

[26:16] Yeah.

[26:17] So were there other, Let me ask you a different way. Was there a plan for you and instruction and parenting that involved yelling, or was the yelling reactive, like they just get exasperated or frustrated and just kind of blow up in a way, or was it part of a general plan of instruction? It's not a great plan of instruction, but, or was it more reactive, like I've had it with, you know, this kind of stuff, right?

[26:47] It was reactive. I don't remember having a plan.

[26:52] And do you think that there was any plan with regards to parenting you, or was it mostly reactive?

[27:01] Reactive, I would say.

[27:02] Okay. All right. And so what happened when you got into your mid-teens with regards to socializing and dating? You know, the big test of parenting is kind of like the mid-teens. So what happened when you got into your mid-teens and there was this dating, socializing challenge?

[27:23] Well, dating, there wasn't really much of that. I had one girlfriend in upper school, high school for a few months. And aside from that, I had a small friend group. I'm still in touch with a couple of them today, 10 years later. But there wasn't much of a social scene scene for me i i i think i remember i just remember just wanting to distance myself from that not entirely but just wanting sorry from that.

[27:54] Meaning the social scene or the dating.

[27:57] Uh yeah well both both yeah and.

[28:02] Why did you not want to date.

[28:08] Uh regretfully looking back it was it was a kind of well if i don't do that then i can't If I do that, then I won't have as much time to hit the books and study and get good grades, etc.

[28:18] Well, no, I get all of that, but aren't you full of lust and teenage yearning?

[28:25] Yeah, yeah.

[28:27] Okay, so isn't that kind of what... I mean, I know there's this whole planet of pornography or whatever, right? But isn't there something that drives you to try and surmount the challenge of asking girls out out and going on dates and stuff like that, which has to do with, you know, like pair bonding and lust and all that kind of stuff. You know, maybe the teenage years have changed quite a bit from when I was a teenager. I'm sure they have, but isn't it a little tough to just ignore that or wasn't it?

[29:01] I don't know if it was tough, I just never found a drive to really ask anyone out or express how I was feeling for someone. Even when I just saw a girl, I thought she was attractive. Just had very little drive.

[29:13] Sorry, you didn't have a drive to ask a girl out?

[29:19] Yeah, that's kind of a memory of it, yeah.

[29:22] And do you have any idea why? I mean, that's a fairly, I mean, it seems to be a fairly core part of It's a big deal, yeah. teenage life i mean that's kind of why all life exists right is after the girls out so uh help help me understand you you didn't have the drives no.

[29:40] I i didn't i didn't have the no i didn't have the driver and.

[29:45] Did you i mean i assume that you saw doctors and not not necessarily for that but i assume you saw doctors got good health care and there was nothing that was uh an issue with hormones or testosterone or did you ever get anything like that checked as a teenager major.

[29:59] No i don't think i've ever been to the doctors for anything really i well above my appendix when i was very little but um no i i didn't get much treatment in that way.

[30:11] Did you not have like annual checkups or anything from the doctor no i mean you know it's free right.

[30:20] Yeah i i wasn't yeah i was i wasn't conscious of that when i was when i was younger probably no.

[30:24] It's not you i mean did you go to the doctor when you were a kid or did your mom take you to to the doctor?

[30:30] No, it was... No, never, really.

[30:33] What do you mean, no? You've got to take your kids to the doctor.

[30:37] Yeah, I didn't...

[30:38] You've got to get them weighed and measured and, you know... make sure everything's fine like what i i mean don't you have to take your kids to the doctor maybe that's a new thing i don't know in.

[30:51] All honesty that my initial reaction to you saying that was that sounds a bit weird but no it's yeah you should.

[30:55] Sounds a bit weird to take your kids on annual checkup when they're growing i.

[30:59] Know yeah it's i think i think my brother had some growth pains in his knees at one point um i think that got looked into but apart from that i don't remember i don't remember either of us really going for anything but.

[31:10] You went to the dentist though right went.

[31:12] To the dentist yeah.

[31:13] Okay went to the dentist so your mother knew that you needed regular checkups she just never took you to a doctor to get yourself weighed and measured and have the doctor ask questions like uh how's dating going you say well i don't really have any desire for girls and it's like well maybe we should do some blood work i don't know i'm not a doctor but i would imagine it would be something like that that.

[31:30] Would have helped yeah.

[31:31] High School Relationship

[31:31] And again it may be nothing to do with that i'm just uh isn't that kind of why you take your kids to the they're done anyway okay uh so what happened with the girl in high school upper school upper school what happened to the girl there um.

[31:48] I think that relationship just kind of dried up there wasn't there wasn't much to it um i don't know it was, i'm really taking it too seriously in my mind since really it was just oh high school girlfriend whatever um, yeah, it's, I don't know. We kind of got into sort of college level together and then I guess both struggled to interact with each other while we were studying.

[32:20] Good Lord, man. Your language is so vague. I'm like, I'm lost in fog planet here. I don't know what you're talking about.

[32:26] Okay.

[32:27] So you had the girl, hang on. You had the girl in high school. Are you saying that it went beyond high school to college?

[32:32] Um just about yeah it was like from the end of high school years to right to the start of college like the first month of college.

[32:38] Okay so and and high school and you asked her out is that right or did you just kind of hang out together and vaguely coalesce uh.

[32:47] Yeah mostly mostly hanging out together and then i kind of just asked her out over over a message online um, yeah and.

[32:55] This was right at the end of high school yeah.

[32:58] Last few months of high school And.

[32:59] Had your mother or your father or your stepfather given you any dating advice or thoughts or asked you how it was going with girls or anything like that?

[33:12] No. I mean, I told them I was seeing someone and...

[33:16] No, no, no. Before the end of high school. Sorry, that wasn't clear. Before the, I mean, once you've already asked the girl out, it's a little different, right? But did they ever say, are there any girls you like? Or is there anyone you want to ask out? Or how was the dance? Or, you know, did you ask any girls to dance? Or, you know, just the basic stuff that shows some damn interest in your child.

[33:37] I don't think, no. No, not really.

[33:39] Does that seem odd to you?

[33:41] As well, sir.

[33:42] Does that seem odd to you?

[33:44] It does. It does. Looking on it now, it really does.

[33:47] Okay. What did your parents and stepfather ask you about as a teenager? Did they ask you how things are going socially? Did they ask you how things are going academically? Did they ask how things are going with regards to health? I guess not girls, anything.

[34:02] Academically, I mean, my mom definitely pressed on that for sure. um but no i don't really remember any real interaction with her in terms of social life dating anything like that okay.

[34:15] So were you were you parented at all right reactive blow-ups and intimidating yelling and your dad in your face though quieter i guess i mean that's not parenting right that's just reaction right so were you were you parented in any way that i would really understand.

[34:36] No i guess not i think i think i've clung to the notion that i should, respect them just for well just for my mom and stepdad primarily just for providing, money and so they're always being food on the table that kind of thing i've always been thankful.

[34:52] Okay you know that prisons do that right yeah.

[34:56] I know yeah.

[34:56] And uh concentration camps not much food but they'll give you food right enough.

[35:02] To get by yeah.

[35:03] So the respect is is for feeding and watering you like a damn house plant, right?

[35:09] Yeah. Okay.

[35:11] So you're not worthy of interest from others, and they're not at fault for failing to provide it. If I understand the logic, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. I mean, but.

[35:28] No, that lines up to me. Yeah.

[35:31] Okay. And how do you feel about that looking back?

[35:39] Yeah, looking back, I feel kind of just let down. Like I've just been sort of let go in life to sort of drift vague bits of talking here and there with them. But yeah, I just really kind of.

[35:53] All right. So how much time did your parents a week spend on distractions such as television versus, I don't know, parenting you and your brother?

[36:07] Quite a lot, yeah. Definitely grew up with games consoles and good internet access.

[36:18] I'm going to put in a request here just so I don't lose my freaking mind.

[36:22] Oh.

[36:24] So when I say how many hours, and you say, well, quite a lot. I don't know what to make of that information. So we're wasting a lot of time here because I keep having to ask you everything two or three times. Okay. Okay, so how many hours a week, roughly, did your parents spend on, say, television? I mean, I guess more your mom and stepdad, since your dad might have been in a tent. I don't know where the hell he was at this point. So how many hours a week would they spend on television versus parenting? Just roughly.

[36:54] Roughly, like 30, I guess. I'm not really sure what kind of number to give for that. I don't know.

[37:05] Well, you have a gut sense, right? I mean, obviously, if they watch two hours of screens a day, that's 14 hours a week, right? If they watch three, right, that's 21. You get that, right?

[37:15] Yeah. 35 plus.

[37:21] Okay, so your mom had basically a full-time job, which was glazing over to screens, right?

[37:30] Yeah, yeah.

[37:31] All right. And I guess you're a stepdad too, right?

[37:35] Yeah.

[37:37] Parental Screen Time vs Parenting Influence

[37:37] All right. So how did you develop any sense of what to do in life if you desperately didn't want to be like your parents? And... you didn't have any moral instruction. I mean, we all have to make our decisions about what to do in life. And how did you do that without either empirical or intellectual or moral instruction?

[38:04] I think from an early sort of teenage year, I knew I wanted to do something with history as a job. That's kind of always been my main academic focus. So my focus really just turned to, you know, get good grades to get into uni and eventually i did um and i failed on that course.

[38:24] I'm sorry you did what uh.

[38:27] Failed at uni twice.

[38:28] Fading High School Relationship

[38:28] You failed at uni and uh what what happened hang on no no before we get to that so how did things fade out with the high school girl or the high school slash college girl.

[38:41] We became, probably going to sound quite vague, but we became quite distant conversations were happening a lot less, less effort to meet up and go out. And I just remember her saying to me, like, one day, do you think this relationship is drying up? And I just had to kind of admit, yeah, kind of is.

[38:59] Drying up. I think vagin, I think vagina.

[38:59] Drying up. I think vagin, I think vagina. But, and did you, did you have sex with her? Is that, is she the, no. Okay. All right. and of course if your parents don't take any interest in you how how can you perceive yourself as interesting at.

[39:18] Least when you're young right I do yeah the more I grew up I kind of realized that I saw myself as less and less of a interesting person I guess I never really wanted to, bother people with my life I guess right yeah.

[39:38] Okay so what happened in uni you said twice.

[39:42] University Struggles and Failures

[39:43] Yeah so the well the first time i tried uni um admittedly i took some courses that were just way up my depth i took two language courses um ancient greek and latin that was a bit much for me and there were some technical issues um which i couldn't get to certain lectures on time um it kind of built up so i restarted in the second the The second year went pretty well. I made good friends with the people I was sharing accommodation with, even went out a few times. Honestly, it was looking pretty good, but I just flopped the exam. I really, really studied for them. I really tried. I think I just really struggled condensing a year's worth of six courses into an hour and a half each of memory tests. It's just, that's always been quite difficult for me.

[40:33] I'm sorry, you're muttering a little bit. I can't. So you failed the exams because you couldn't condense the information? And why do you think you couldn't condense the information? I mean, your mother's involved in the teaching profession, right?

[40:47] Yeah, she is.

[40:49] So shouldn't she give you some sense of how to do this? It's almost like the kid of a doctor saying he has no idea about health.

[41:00] Yeah.

[41:03] I mean, did you have any conversations with your mother? You're saying, I'm having trouble condensing information. She's like, oh, I'm... i'm in the teaching environment i can help you with that i.

[41:17] Never had a conversation with her about that no i do remember kind of discouraging me from uni a little bit saying oh well this won't open up many job opportunities for you i mean oh not uni.

[41:26] So much as the history part right.

[41:28] Well history as well yeah because she kind of knew like that there's not many avenues available for that like compared to maths for example which my brother yeah Oh yeah.

[41:38] I got it. All right, so you failed the tests, right?

[41:44] I failed the tests, yeah.

[41:45] And did you fail to the tests where you were, what I said, a friend of mine said, oh yeah, I did so well at university, they gave me a whole year off. Were you disinvited from the university? Could you have continued? Was it such a bad failure that you were not allowed back or how did that go?

[42:04] I think I could have tried again. I just felt very demoralized trying to go down that path again. I mean, one of the exams I got 8%.

[42:12] Eight?

[42:13] Eight. I'd be surprised if that was not their lowest on that module.

[42:17] And this, as you said, it wasn't an issue of studying, right?

[42:21] It wasn't a study issue. I mean, I enjoy studying history. If I get some spare time, that's kind of all I'm doing. My bookshelf's full of history books. It's not a study issue.

[42:31] Eight percent. So what were the comments on 8%?

[42:38] I don't think there were any comments. I got a sheet back saying, you know, these are your numbers, essentially. This is what you passed at, this is what you failed at, and I don't think there was much else to it.

[42:49] And did you have any forward warning of the deficiency in condensing information? information? In other words, I assume you'd had half terms or papers that you had to put in. I assume you didn't put in, you know, 3,000 page paper on the Crimean war. I mean, did you have any feedback from professors about your ability to condense and, you know, here's a book to read or here's some practice that did you go to the professors when they have their office hours and so on? I mean, it kind of been a total shock to you that you had no capacity to condense in the the finals. I mean, this would have shown up beforehand, am I right?

[43:28] No, yeah, it's an issue I've struggled with since high school. Admittedly, I kind of went into uni thinking, knowing that exams were going to be a huge issue for me, and talking to it with lecturers, I don't know, I got this, well, they kind of said to me that, They're almost wondering why was it, apart from my love for history.

[43:52] I'm sorry, you muttered it again. They wondered why you were at university?

[43:57] Yeah.

[44:01] So you go to your professors for help and they say you don't belong here?

[44:05] Yeah.

[44:07] So help me understand that. I mean, isn't their job to try and help you? I mean, you care about history. You're obviously an articular fellow. So isn't it kind of their job to help you succeed? succeed and and saying you don't belong here it's not exactly helping you succeed that's kind of sabotage right no.

[44:22] Yeah yeah definitely i remember doing not so good in one like mock paper i got and then kind of one one teacher in particular kind of invited me to his office and kind of sat me down and was like why why are you here exactly and i was like you know i love history i've been, studying it since i was little etc and he kind of said well that's not really enough for you to be here is it and i didn't get much help on the actual paper itself it was more of it.

[44:48] Okay and with regards to condensation condensing condensation i guess it's liquid with regard to content condensing things uh did you read books on how to do it or what the professors might be looking for or what is the essence that you need to extract from the text in order to write something concise or like how did you try and work with this issue which i assume had been identified since, uh lower school or at least middle or upper school right um, I mean, I have an issue with memorization. I really hate memorization.

[45:33] Yeah, for sure.

[45:34] You know, when I took a course on Roman history, I mean, you had to memorize the names and dates of the emperors. And I hated that because I think it's a terrible use of your brain because you can just look it up, right? The important thing is the themes, right? Right. So I hate memorization, but of course you have to do it for a history degree. And so I, you know, came up with all these mnemonic tricks and all of this sort of stuff to try and figure out how to remember stuff. And I felt no shame when I would do a brain dump at the exam and then just forget it all afterwards, because that's not what I'm interested in terms of history. It doesn't matter what the name of the emperor was. It matters what the themes of the fall of Rome were. So I have a particular issue with memorization. So I had to really work very hard to try and find ways to overcome that and um that's not a comparison thing but i guess with regards to the condensation thing what steps did you try to take or read about or try to figure out to deal with the issue or did you just kind of cross your fingers and hope it would resolve on its own i.

[46:39] Think honestly admittedly i think it was a bit of a cross your fingers kind of scenario i I didn't really know who to turn to for it. I didn't know how to start improving on that.

[46:48] Okay, that's, come on, man. Like, that's not true. No, don't go rubber bones on me. Because if you're intelligent enough to want to be a historian, and you're intelligent enough to listen to this show, saying, I have a problem with condensing things, I have no idea what to do. I mean, you have the internet, right? So you type into the internet principles of condensing things, how to condense things, what's a good example of condensing things, what are people looking for when it comes to condensing? Like, come on. I mean, please don't tell me. You can tie your own shoes, you can count to 10, and you can figure out how to look things up on the internet.

[47:31] Yeah, that's a bit of a gut punch for me. I mean, yeah, that's a pretty simple solution. I did not.

[47:38] Well, okay, so help me understand. I mean, you're an intelligent fellow, so I'm not faulting your intelligence, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad. But if you can't figure out, or it never even crosses your mind to look something up to solve a problem, maybe that's what they're talking about when they're saying, I'm not sure what you're doing here at university. Because if you can't figure out a deficiency and figure out how to solve it. I mean, did you sit down with the TAs and say, hey, man, I'm having big problems with condensing things. What book should I read or what approach should I take or, you know, this is my big stumbling block? You could have done all of that, right?

[48:20] Yeah, I certainly could have, yeah.

[48:23] And again, I'm curious as to why you didn't because you're easily intelligent enough to do that. So it's not a matter of intelligence. And this is the whole point of self-curiosity, right? So self-curiosity is refusing to condemn, but instead being curious, right?

[48:40] Yeah.

[48:42] So why didn't you take any steps to solve a problem you'd known you'd had for years and years and years when you have the entire internet available to help you?

[49:01] I think towards the end of uni i felt like i kind of went to university because it's what i felt like i should do i i didn't feel like i belonged there in a sense and i think maybe i just okay.

[49:13] So you you wanted to leave maybe unconsciously or maybe not even that unconsciously you didn't want to be there, does that make sense yeah.

[49:23] I think there was a yeah like the back.

[49:26] I mean i hate memorization i wanted to be in university i hate memorization i need to memorize things to get to university so i read a whole bunch of books and articles on how to memorize things yeah, and again this is not a better or worse than obviously i'm not trying to say well look what i did and you didn't but i'm just a genuine curiosity did you want to be there, no because you were you weren't taking the steps necessary to stay there which are obvious steps right and again easily smart enough to know this stuff right yeah.

[49:55] I don't think i wanted to be there i felt like i should and i felt like it was something i'd aimed at for years like it's what i'd spent my school days doing getting good grades for this it's kind of what i felt like i should do but yeah i think in the back of my mind i didn't really want to be there.

[50:09] And why didn't you want to be there if you love history and you love studying history it does give you a chance to do that and so and again I'm sure there's good reasons it's not disagreeing with you but why didn't you want to be there, again just out of curiosity not a judgment yeah um.

[50:42] I'm curious as well. Looking back, it's what you would do if you want to go down the line of a book. I wanted to.

[50:50] Well, no, no, no, no, not necessarily. No, no, hang on, hang on, not necessarily. You love history, right? You study a lot of history. You've been doing it since you were a kid, right?

[51:00] Yeah. Okay.

[51:02] What have you done with that knowledge? In other words, what is the knowledge for? I mean, I studied philosophy, obviously, to make my life better, but I was also desperate to use it to help the world, right? Hence these kinds of conversations, right? So you have this knowledge of history. What is it for? In other words, is it for you or is it to help the world? Now, obviously, it has to be to you to some degree because you've got to accumulate it, right?

[51:31] Yes.

[51:32] But what have you done in the 15-plus years that you've been studying history? What have you done with that knowledge? and there's tons of things to do with it right you could write a sub stack you could do a podcast you could make videos you could do just about anything, to share your knowledge of and love of history and help the world learn important things right yeah.

[51:56] I do have a like a blog series online where i take my history books read through them and make like history articles online basically to for people to read um.

[52:06] Oh fantastic okay good good and how's that doing um.

[52:10] It's doing okay i'm to be honest i do procrastinate a lot in life and there'd be long periods where there would just be like no content coming out um and then some bursts of.

[52:22] Energy what's the what's the longest period that you haven't produced content.

[52:26] Uh i think three months.

[52:30] Okay that's not too too bad and how many articles have you produced for your Good luck.

[52:39] Uh, I think about 80 or something like that.

[52:44] Okay, good. And if you want to mention the name of your blog, I'm perfectly happy if you want to do that. If you want to not do that, that's fine with me too.

[52:51] Yeah, it's, uh, it's on a website called, um, publish zero X publisher X, um, where people can like leave tips if they like it, if they like content. So I've made, I mean, a little bit of money. I'm not living off of it for sure. Um, but yeah, there's been a little, um, yeah, there's been good feedback. on it as well like people seem to really enjoy it one or two minor criticisms like maybe the articles themselves are too long um but aside from that yeah really good feedback on them um well.

[53:18] As you know from my example the sole purpose of being online is to never be criticized at all that's the that's the key just avoid criticisms at all costs it's absolutely.

[53:26] Yeah i do i do find it weird admittedly the audience is huge a couple of them have a couple of thousand views on them um which i think we're a pretty niche website that's good that's good no that's that's good And.

[53:35] How long have you been working on the blog?

[53:38] Three plus years, maybe four years.

[53:41] Okay. So 80 articles in four years?

[53:45] Yeah. 20, something like that.

[53:51] So, two a month?

[53:56] On average, yeah. Yeah, looking back, that's not too bad. I've kind of put myself...

[54:01] No, it's not too bad. You've got a full-time job, right? So, two articles a month is not too bad. All right.

[54:05] Yeah. Yeah, I've really put myself in for that, but that's okay. That's not too bad.

[54:11] Yeah, that's not too bad at all. Not too bad at all. Good for you. Good for you. Like, seriously. All right. So, you left uni, was that after your first semester or the first full full academic year.

[54:23] Uh so the first time i tried uni i left uh just after the first semester and then the second time i did a full year failed exams right okay and then i actually tried um open university i was still keen to try the university route so i tried the open university maybe uh just to do like less less courses etc i thought maybe if i just reduce the the amount that i need to do maybe that would ease the workload make it be easier and from what i remember i just wasn't in the headspace for it and i i pulled out from that as well so.

[54:56] It wasn't in the headspace for it.

[54:57] It's more of.

[54:58] This vague language that i don't know what it means.

[55:00] Oh yeah i felt i felt really demoralized by um just like failing uni twice essentially and wondering if i should even be there but for some reason i felt really keen to stick at it in some form um Um, eventually I just had to admit to myself, like, I don't really want to do this right now.

[55:17] I mean, would you like a little mental tip on how to escape this feeling of failure?

[55:24] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[55:27] You have succeeded at failing. And this is more than just sort of a silly mental trick. You have success. So you took actions that without a doubt were going to cause you to leave university, right?

[55:45] Yeah, like I knew I was going to do bad exams.

[55:49] Yeah, so you didn't, for many years, you didn't take the training and instruction that you needed to take in order to deal with the problem of condensing things, right?

[56:00] Yeah.

[56:00] So you took steps to ensure that you would not succeed at university. Does that make sense?

[56:10] Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah.

[56:11] So you succeeded at your goal of failing university. Now, why you want it to succeed at your goal of failing university, you know, it's kind of like, you know, I'm sure you've heard these stories of the women who they want to break up with a guy, but they don't want to do it directly or say it directly for whatever reason. And so what happens is they end up acting in such a way that the guy breaks up with them, if you sort of heard of these kind of situations.

[56:40] Yeah. Right.

[56:41] So that's succeeding and failing at the relationship.

[56:47] Yeah.

[56:48] So you succeeded. I mean, I succeeded at being deplatformed, right?

[56:55] Yeah.

[56:56] And so I can look at it, oh, it's a big failure. It's like, no, no, I succeeded at being deplatformed. Because obviously I was taking stances and making arguments and interviewing the experts where that was a high likelihood, right? right?

[57:10] Yeah, it's kind of like a magic.

[57:11] I mean, almost a certainty, right?

[57:12] People know what it is.

[57:13] Yeah, yeah. So, I didn't fail, I succeeded. And this is more than a mental trick, because that's the curiosity, right? So, you say, well, I really wanted to go to university, I failed out of it, oh, that's so terrible, I'm so bad, I'm a failure, and blah, blah, blah, right? Well, that's a whole mindset, that's a problem, right?

[57:32] It is, yeah, yeah.

[57:33] Right. But if you have, say, okay, well, clearly, I didn't want to be at university, So I took all the necessary steps to leave. So I probably should try and figure out why I wanted out of university. Because I sure succeeded at that goal, right?

[57:50] Yeah.

[57:51] Do you see what I'm saying?

[57:53] Yeah, I understand.

[57:56] I feel like we're not having any emotional connection at all.

[58:00] I was worrying the same thing, yeah.

[58:02] Yeah, yeah, like I'm sitting here, like I'm dropping pretty big bombs on your self-criticism here, right? Then you're like, oh yeah, interesting, yeah, no, I got it. If what I'm talking about is not interesting or relevant, I don't mean that in a passive-aggressive way. Like in general, if this is something obvious that you've, I just said that because you seem to think that you failed in university, and I think you succeeded in getting out of university, the question is why, but you definitely succeeded in the goal, right?

[58:30] Yeah.

[58:33] So if that's not interesting, um, we can work on, on other topics or, or we can talk about something else because what I'm getting back is that what I'm saying is not interesting or deep or relevant to you. And I don't mean that in any negative way. I'm just giving you the feedback because, you know, it's like, yeah, interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[58:53] It's, it's interesting. It is very interesting. It's, I, I guess I, I have struggled with emotional expression for quite a long time.

[59:04] I don't know what that means he struggled with emotional expression i mean do you feel the emotions yeah.

[59:10] Yeah yeah i feel the emotions it's just i i've never known how or when to, manifest them to other people um what.

[59:21] Do you mean manifest them you're not summoning a ghost it's not a ouija board i mean if i say something that's interesting and liberating for you and you feel wow that's really helpful what can you say i.

[59:33] Can say well it's very very helpful thank you.

[59:34] Yeah as opposed to yeah okay isn't it just lying sorry am i am i i mean just isn't it i don't know struggling with emotional like just tell the truth if i'm saying something that's important and relevant and helpful and interesting and positive for you you can say what i.

[59:49] Can say that that's what it was and i'm grateful.

[59:51] Yeah so i'm just isn't it just not lying, I'm pretending something isn't interesting when it is.

[1:00:02] Yeah. No, you're right. Yeah, it is. It is.

[1:00:04] So that's a lot of words for I'm just falsifying my existence and pretending to not feel things that I feel and not expressing what's on my mind. Struggling with emotional expression. Make it sound like I'm asking you to parse out ancient kanji. No, no, you're back in the foreign languages, ancient Greek and ancient Roman. No, Latin, right?

[1:00:26] Both at one point, yeah.

[1:00:28] Both? Yes, you say both, right?

[1:00:29] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:00:30] So, struggling, I can understand struggling to learn ancient Greek, but telling the truth about what you think and feel, I understand that maybe there's some emotional risk in it or openness or vulnerability or whatever, but I don't know. If you know the truth and you decide not to speak the truth, you're not struggling with emotional self-expression, you're just choosing to falsify something. And again, I don't mean this in any big judgy way.

[1:00:57] Yeah.

[1:00:57] But if something is meaningful to you and you pretend it's not, you're just lying, right?

[1:01:01] Lying. Yeah, just being dishonest. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:01:03] And again, it's not a big moral judgment. I'm just like, isn't that the more accurate thing than whatever the struggling with emotional self, whatever that means, right? Yeah. And that's why I asked, do you feel, right? Because if you said, well, Steph, you've told me how to think about my leaving university in a way that liberates me from feelings of failure, that's really helpful.

[1:01:23] Yes.

[1:01:23] Right? If you don't even feel that, like if you feel completely indifferent to what I'm saying, that's one thing. Because then the problem would be much worse.

[1:01:36] Yeah, even my response is I can hear myself just going, yeah, a lot.

[1:01:40] Yeah, right. So if you didn't even have the thoughts or feelings that it was positive to be released from a sense of guilt, right?

[1:01:47] Yes.

[1:01:49] Or failure, right? So if you didn't even have an emotional response to that, that would be a very big problem. The fact that you have an emotional response but are falsifying it, That's a much better problem to have.

[1:02:05] It is, yeah. I'm glad this has been brought up, actually. Yeah, I think this is something I've shoved to the back of my mind for a while now, just the fact that I don't respond truthfully a lot to even just basic interactions. I'm not very honest with people a lot of the time.

[1:02:26] You have a tough time saying you lie, right?

[1:02:28] Emotional Expression and Honesty

[1:02:28] Right?

[1:02:29] Not very honest, super a lot of, right? I mean, I've had no emotional connection. You've been talking for like almost an hour, right?

[1:02:36] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:02:37] And again, I'm not, I'm not calling you some big, like bad liar. I'm just saying that these are lies, right? Now then, and then the question is, and you know, don't judge yourself because judgment is the opposite of understanding, right? We can judge after we understand, but we don't understand yet. So then the question is, why do you withhold yourself from the world so much? Why do you withhold hold yourself from conversation so much because you know what it costs you right you can't have a girlfriend if you're emotionally unavailable because why the hell would you choose a blank wall, yes right and of course if you withhold the authenticity of your passions and emotions from the world you end up withholding them from yourself and then you end up lost in space like you are right yeah.

[1:03:22] There's a there's there's a big fear of of embarrassment and rejection.

[1:03:25] Yeah that's true that's true for everyone okay so that's that's not special to you everybody who's authentic fears being rejected i get that no no no it's darker than that it's darker than that oh yes yes you can't out british me my friend um so why would you withhold hold yourself from connection with others. Like, why wouldn't you say, damn, that really hits home, man. What a thought. I can feel like a weight lift from my shoulders. I can see a way forward out of this shame of failing university twice and getting 8%, right? Why wouldn't you share that with me? And it's not personal to me because it's the principle of action. as a whole. So why would you withhold yourself from others?

[1:04:37] I'm really struggling with that one. I think every time I've thought about this, it's just sort of hit the dead end of fear of embarrassment or failure or something like that. I've never really.

[1:04:50] No, that's all girly crap. We're talking men here. We're two men talking to each other. That's all girly, sensitive. I'm so sensitive. No, no, no, it's not that.

[1:04:57] Yeah.

[1:05:02] So I can tell you why, if you like. Sorry, you had a thought and I don't want to interrupt your thought.

[1:05:07] Yeah. Well, like those girly kind of thought. I've often like looked at myself and thought, can I feel so like effeminate just having all these worries about emotions and.

[1:05:17] Yeah, no. And this is, that's why the first, you remember the first question I asked you the.

[1:05:22] Very first question. Yeah.

[1:05:23] Did you grow up with a father?

[1:05:26] Yeah. I've, I've made that connection before, like fatherlessness and not even connected with my stepdad.

[1:05:31] Right.

[1:05:31] Yeah.

[1:05:34] So. There's, It's an emotion that is hardest for the sons of single mothers. And I know your mother had a stepdad, but that actually made it worse because you weren't connected with him either, right?

[1:05:53] Yeah, yeah.

[1:05:54] She got you a stepdad, but you weren't connected, right?

[1:05:57] Yeah, I often just wish that they just never met and I just had a single mom sometimes.

[1:06:03] Right. Right. So the reason that you withhold yourself is anger. And that's the, see, if you're raised by a single mom, she's going to allow you to feel all kinds of delicate and sensitive and, and tremulous and fearful and all of that stuff, right? But the one emotion that you're not allowed to feel is deep anger.

[1:06:33] Yeah, anger gets put down quite quickly. It has been quite put down over the years.

[1:06:39] Right. So...

[1:06:45] It's like it loses your sense of passion. If you're not allowed to express your anger, anger is useful.

[1:06:52] Essential.

[1:06:54] Yeah, it's very essential.

[1:06:55] Success and anger for men often go hand in hand. I don't mean rage or violence, right?

[1:07:01] Yeah, it can go to.

[1:07:02] I mean, I've got some anger at the world and it's irrationalities and failing to protect and support me as a child and all the abuse and the debt. And yeah, I've got some anger at the world and that has something to do with fueling what I do.

[1:07:15] Yeah. Yeah. And obviously if any emotion can go too far, I can be too in touch with a goofy idiot if you're too happy all the time. But yeah, yeah. Anger.

[1:07:22] Unveiling Passive Aggression

[1:07:22] Okay. So if anger is helpful at looking at why you withhold yourself from others, and if that's a new insight to you, then, you know, trace it through for me, brother. Rather, how does anger result in you withholding yourself from others?

[1:08:03] I'm not sure the only thing i can think of is that i've come across a lot of people in my life that, i disagree with and in conversation and i don't i don't want to bring up that i do disagree with them um in case that doesn't does lead to anger that's That's all I can really think of.

[1:08:23] Okay, let's go. We like history, right? So let's go there. Now, is the master allowed to get angry at the slave?

[1:08:33] Yes.

[1:08:34] Is the slave allowed to get angry at the master?

[1:08:36] Of course not.

[1:08:37] Right. But the slave is angry at the master, right?

[1:08:40] Constantly.

[1:08:41] So what does the slave do?

[1:08:42] Keep quiet.

[1:08:44] I'm sorry?

[1:08:45] Keep quiet.

[1:08:45] No, no, but what does he do with his anger?

[1:08:50] He might channel it to a wall in private or take it out on his work or something.

[1:08:57] Yeah, it's passive aggression, right?

[1:08:59] Redirect it, yeah.

[1:09:00] Yeah, it's passive aggression. So he might forget things, I mean, with the danger of being beaten and all of that, but he's going to withhold his enthusiasm from the master.

[1:09:12] Yeah.

[1:09:13] Does that make sense?

[1:09:14] That makes sense, yeah.

[1:09:17] So you withhold your enthusiasm from me and from others, yeah.

[1:09:32] I suppose that's been happening so long now, I don't feel infused over a lot of things. Even my history work, I feel that kind of draining recently, my passion for that.

[1:09:44] You are a tough subject, my friend.

[1:09:47] Yeah. You know why?

[1:09:50] Exploring Emotional Disconnect

[1:09:50] It's like being quite vague.

[1:09:53] Well, what did I say about honesty before? Did I give you some insight here that explains a good chunk of your life? Yeah. That you withhold yourself from others because you're angry. And to be enthusiastic is to pretend that you're not.

[1:10:13] Yeah.

[1:10:14] So I give you that insight after saying you should share when you're happy or get something positive. And what happens? Like within five minutes of me talking about this.

[1:10:27] I don't share those emotions.

[1:10:30] Right. Now, when I said the slave can't show enthusiasm and this is why you can't be positive with others or reveal yourself or be enthusiastic with others, do you think there's some truth in that? If there's not, that's fine. We can look elsewhere. But do you think there's some truth in that?

[1:10:48] I'm not sure to what degree, but yeah, I think there's some truth in that.

[1:10:51] All right. And is that a useful approach to looking at emotional disconnect from others?

[1:11:05] Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it's great.

[1:11:13] I wasn't sure what the end of that sentence was, but it sounded like there was more to the sentence.

[1:11:17] It'll be in progress. Yeah, I think it's a good avenue.

[1:11:22] I'm sorry. I don't know what you're saying.

[1:11:25] Yes, basically.

[1:11:30] But do you feel any connection with what i'm saying and it's fine if you don't right again i'm not trying to manufacture emotion within you but do you feel any connection because i can talk about it more if it would help i've.

[1:11:47] Just realized that i i agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying 100 i'm just i'm not i'm not feeling it i'm not putting you to blame for that i'm just i'm I'm just not feeling anything.

[1:11:57] Right.

[1:11:58] Yeah.

[1:11:59] Okay. So we'll talk a little bit more about the passive aggression of withholding yourself from others.

[1:12:09] Okay.

[1:12:13] Do you love your mother?

[1:12:20] That's a long pause. Okay. i've never really felt a no no i've never really felt a great connection with her.

[1:12:34] Do you resent your mother for not parenting you and instead spending 35 hours a week staring at the television.

[1:12:44] I do yeah i i have expressed this to her like i've said like she has a go at me for doing the same thing like i'll go up to my room on my computer but i'll say well that's what you do as well and she seems to truck it off.

[1:13:00] I'm not talking about the bickering that can happen as an adult. I'm talking about your experience of feeling unloved and unwanted as a child.

[1:13:06] Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to focus on that, but yeah. No, yeah, I do feel resentful, yeah.

[1:13:12] Okay. Do you feel resentful at your parents for probably both of them lying about the divorce?

[1:13:20] Yeah. That's been quite a core.

[1:13:24] Do you feel resentful at your father for choosing conspiracy theories over you in the same way that your mother chose the television over you.

[1:13:31] God yeah yeah i really do.

[1:13:35] All right and have you expressed a direct anger towards them for these actions.

[1:13:47] Yes and i really feel like i should have done that more so.

[1:13:54] So tell me how those conversations went, if you wouldn't mind.

[1:13:59] Well, with my dad, I mean, when I distanced myself from him and stopped making contact with him, it was over a conversation like that. I was sick of the false promises he made and how he'd treat other people in the family. I was just sick of it all. Or like, you know, he always said he tried his best and put us first, but he obviously didn't. And I expressed my huge dissatisfaction with that.

[1:14:24] Sorry, if you mentioned this, how long ago was this conversation and the detachment from your father?

[1:14:30] About a year ago now.

[1:14:34] And when you decided to detach from your father, did you inform him of this decision or did you just kind of fade out? And there's not a right or wrong answer to this. Of course, I'm just curious.

[1:14:48] No, I let him know. I was pretty clear about that.

[1:14:51] And what did you say?

[1:14:51] Confrontation with Father

[1:14:51] Yeah well i for a series of long messages um kind of just said you know i did everything in my life without you like you were not you were not there for any of the important bits you were just sort of on the phone or i'd see you once a month or whatever you know yeah i i got through life without you like i learned to ride a bike without you i got through school without you i've got jobs without you i can drive i didn't need you for that and at the time i had a girlfriend you You know, I got her without you, so I can do the rest of my life without you. And yeah.

[1:15:28] And how did he respond?

[1:15:33] At first, there was one message he sent me, which was too brute. He was basically calling me a traitor for sort of distancing myself from him.

[1:15:44] Sorry, it sounds almost like you're smiling.

[1:15:48] You heard the smile.

[1:15:49] Yeah, I really did. what's the smile about i don't know yes you do come on don't trust you've had enough of these calls to know that i don't know it never works and never does and never will what's a smile, I mean, that is about as ugly a thing as I've ever heard from a parent to a child. It's about as vicious a thing as I've ever heard, and I've heard some pretty vicious stuff.

[1:16:30] Yeah.

[1:16:36] How goddamn selfish do you have to be that when your child says, you didn't parent me. You play the victim. God damn. That's foul.

[1:16:50] Shocking Reaction from Father

[1:16:50] I'll stop.

[1:16:52] That's foul. You're stabbing me in the back. No, I'm literally pointing out the factual deficiencies in your parenting. Traitor! It's about me! Didn't address anything? anything, didn't rebut anything, didn't say I'm sorry you're hurt, but played the fucking victim. In other words, for him, you asserting yourself and your needs is the equivalent of being murdered in the Senate. For you to exist, for you to have preferences that exist independently of him, or maybe even against his own immediate fucking self-interest, for For you to have preferences is for him to die. And this clusterfuck spent decades studying what? Corruption! Ooh, there's this big conspiracy out there. It's doing harm to the innocent.

[1:18:00] And yet here I am.

[1:18:01] And here you are. He's got power over you. And he's studied all these power structures and how unjust and immoral they are. He gave up his children in part to study these power structures and how bad the Bilderberger group is. and then his child comes to him vulnerably and honestly talking about deficiencies and he says, you're killing me. You are betraying me. You are the violent one. You are the murderer. I am the victim. That is contemptible almost beyond my capacity to describe. and that's why i couldn't quite follow the laughter or the smile.

[1:18:51] I still can't follow it either i'm really trying to um, i don't know,

[1:19:09] Enthusiasm and Childhood Memories

[1:19:09] So.

[1:19:10] If you were to show enthusiasm, okay, well, let me ask you this. When was the last time your mother proposed something and you responded with hand-clapping enthusiasm? And this is not a criticism at all. I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do. I'm just curious. Yes.

[1:19:33] Wow. I really don't know. Well, her breaking up with her ex-boyfriend, that's honestly...

[1:19:45] No, no, I mean, that's something that's not the end of something terrible for you, but in terms of something she proposes that you want to do, that you're enthusiastic to do.

[1:19:55] Yeah, that's the first thing that came to mind.

[1:19:59] Do you remember this as a child?

[1:20:04] I mean we had holidays abroad every year um so she said we go to spain or cyprus um you know.

[1:20:10] But that was enthusiasm for spain or cyprus not your mother right that's.

[1:20:13] Very true yeah so, did i specifically look forward to any moment with her rather than.

[1:20:23] Or she would propose let's go for lunch and you're like oh fantastic great where, or to the zoo or you know maybe the zoo but because of her.

[1:20:38] I really don't remember, no.

[1:20:40] All right. What about your father before this terrible betrayal of him to you, that he wouldn't even fight for you, that he wouldn't even tell me more? I couldn't imagine a life without you. I'll listen to anything you have to say in order to maintain this connection. Do you know how horrible it is that he didn't even fight for you at all?

[1:20:59] Yeah, he gave up pretty quick.

[1:21:02] Well, he didn't try at all. In fact, he drove you away. Didn't he? And by saying that you are murdering him, by having an opinion that differs from him, that's about as narcissistic a mindset as I can conceive of. Again, I'm not a psychologist, but that's about as narcissistic a mindset as I can conceive of, that if you have a different opinion from mine. And he probably also got quite frustrated over the course of his life that nobody would listen to him about his conspiracy theories, right? People, they just won't listen. It's so terrible.

[1:21:35] Yeah, yeah. Oh, no one listens to him. yeah.

[1:21:37] It's so terrible nobody listens to him oh my it's so terrible if only people would listen to him.

[1:21:41] Oh your.

[1:21:42] Son has some criticism well fuck him he's a killer he's a murderer.

[1:21:44] Yeah oh my brother my you know older brother wouldn't go and see him oh i'll ostracize from him he actually sent a graduation picture from uni to him and my dad just sent it straight back right yeah, he's even mad that his own mum doesn't listen to him this is a elderly mother in her or gran in her late 80s widowed she's gone blind in both eyes and he's mad that she's not listening to him like he comes up with recommendations for like if you want to enjoy these last years maybe stick on a few podcasts and listen to something interesting and i mean she's in just no headspace to even and think like that i guess and he's mad that she's not listening to him right.

[1:22:31] Right and he's been your father for over a quarter century you tell him you have issues he shits all over you and ghosts you right.

[1:22:41] Yeah so.

[1:22:45] There's no bond at all.

[1:22:46] No i never was, I think that last bit's the bit I've struggled to come to terms with, just that there never was.

[1:22:57] The Bond with Parents

[1:22:58] Well, how could there have been? It's his job to have and maintain the bond. He's the parent, right? It's his job to have and maintain the bond, right? Not yours. You're the kid.

[1:23:15] Yeah, like he chose to have. Yeah, of course.

[1:23:24] Now, enthusiasm is, in your situation with your parents, the reason you can't be enthusiastic is enthusiasm with regards to your parents, would be forgiveness. Because you're still angry with your parents, and they've not earned your forgiveness, enthusiasm would be a betrayal of your pain and anger. And I don't just mean enthusiasm with regards to them. I mean enthusiasm with regards to anything. Listen, I mean, I'll tell you something straight up, man. And this is my personal experience. Your mileage may vary, so to speak, right? So when I began to do well in my life, life, when I did well in university, when I did well in my business career, when I had a decent stable relationship for years in my 20s. And if I ever complained about my mother, what would people say?

[1:24:46] They wouldn't believe you. They'd think you were a very good girl.

[1:24:50] Well, they'd say, well, she must have done something, right? Just look at you. You drive a nice car. You have a nice place. You're a chief technical officer at a software company you co-founded. You're in a stable relationship. She must have done something, right?

[1:25:10] Yeah, it's like the parent gets automatic credit for everything you've done.

[1:25:14] Right. And so I look like a whiner and a complainer and ungrateful, don't you know? Oh, you can't complain too much about your mother. Look at where you are in life. You got a graduate degree. You've written books. You've built multimillion dollar software. You, you know, I mean, she must have done something, right?

[1:25:40] Yeah, she was there 15 years. So, yeah.

[1:25:44] So, do you understand that success and enthusiasm is perceived by many people as a vindication of your parents?

[1:26:05] Yeah.

[1:26:06] And you can't succeed because that would be to vindicate your parents and you're angry. Thank you. And you have every right to be angry. Of course you do. You were horribly neglected and mistreated as a child, in my opinion. That's why I asked, were you raised with this? Did you have any standards? Did you have any examples? No, you had a bunch of vegetative, yelling, reactive, hysterical, occasionally violent, screeching, TV-addicted waitstrolls and losers who refused to invest in you as their child at all. couldn't remember one decent lesson from either of your parents, couldn't remember any enthusiasm for your parents plans was.

[1:27:02] I smiling because i'm glad that i'm hearing that for the first time from someone like someone's actually standing up for me.

[1:27:08] Well there's that but also it's a darker thing too that your father makes you smile in order to take me off the course. To invite me, like, you know, all of the assholes who try to program humanity always do it with a big smile on their face.

[1:27:25] Yeah.

[1:27:25] You know, all smiling and nodding and encouraging. And it's like, don't fucking hypnotize me, you car snakes. Right. So, no, it's trying to invite me into good humor about a catastrophe so I stay off the scent of immorality.

[1:27:40] Right.

[1:27:41] Your mother works in the educational field. and didn't help you at all with your educational difficulties. Do you know all of the people your mother had access to to help you? One phone call, 10 experts like that, she probably wouldn't have had to pay a penny.

[1:28:04] I do remember telling her a few months ago, like, it seems odd to me that you can help thousands of children across the county, but I'm right here.

[1:28:16] Okay. Why does that seem odd to you?

[1:28:27] Because it would be, I just thought, easier to help me, if anything, for a start. But just like this, it almost always seemed like she was diverting, helping me and helping others so she could feel better about herself.

[1:28:46] So you understand that if I feed every child in the neighborhood except my own, what am I saying to that child?

[1:28:57] You don't matter.

[1:28:59] Why, I hate you.

[1:29:00] Yeah.

[1:29:01] And part of my torture is going to be you watching me happily feed every other child and starving you.

[1:29:09] Narcissism and Lack of Listening

[1:29:10] That's part of my cruelty. Look how great I am with all these other children. Boy, I just want them to succeed and do well. and I'll, I have no energy left over because I'm helping all these other children, you see. Oh, I just, I guess I don't have anything left for you. I've gone out with my big vat of soup and I fed all the children in the world. I come back and there's just nothing for you. Every day, my bowl is empty because all the other children have got everything they want and need. So I know exactly what children need. Oh yeah, trust me, that's what I'm paid for. That's what I was educated for. I know exactly what children need. I know exactly what you need. I'm just going to give it to everyone except you, my dear. You know how cruel that is? Do you get that?

[1:30:13] Starting to see it for what it is for the first time in my life, yeah.

[1:30:19] So, you understand, you're on strike.

[1:30:24] It still feels like I'm being bad and rebelling against it for even thinking like this right now, let's be honest.

[1:30:31] No, no, I got it. Yeah. But you're on strike. Because fuck them. I'm not going to succeed. Because to succeed would be to forgive them. and they haven't earned it they haven't i mean as far as i can tell they haven't acknowledged any wrong they haven't admitted any fault they haven't made any restitution right.

[1:30:56] I've had these kind of conversations not to this extent or depth nowhere near it but with my mom quite a few times um and there's been vague promises of change but i mean nothing nothing back No.

[1:31:11] Okay, so that's even worse, because then she's acknowledged that there's a problem, and then she has ignored the problem, right? That's even worse. I have some vague respect for people who never admit any fault.

[1:31:29] Yeah.

[1:31:30] Because then at least they're consistent. But the people who admit fault and then don't change, well, that's just terrible.

[1:31:37] At least they're being who they say they are.

[1:31:46] Your mother is trained in childhood education, right?

[1:31:50] Yeah.

[1:31:51] And her own child got 8% in university. That's not an accident, man. Another reason you bombed out of university is so your mother wouldn't get any praise. It's a way of fighting back. Humiliate me? Oh, I can humiliate you back. I can fail out of uni. and you're the big educator. I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of me succeeding. That's how angry I am. I'm not going to give you bragging rights. I'm not going to give you a feeling of satisfaction and I'm damn well not going to give you the delusion that you did things right by succeeding.

[1:32:46] That makes a ton of sense you know i i could be.

[1:32:49] Wrong obviously i could be wrong.

[1:32:50] No it really it really makes sense you know i even hesitated making this call at all because a few days before she i told her i was feeling really depressed and everything and she kind of well she sent me a link to some kind of therapy online and i didn't even want to open it or look at it and then in turn i didn't even want to take this call because it would be like oh i'm kind of listening to her in away.

[1:33:16] Right.

[1:33:16] Ignore it. Nice.

[1:33:32] What happens if you are wealthy, healthy, in love, successful? What is that going to cost you? Right? It's not brain surgery to figure out how to do it, right? I mean, do you know how to meet a girl?

[1:33:57] Physical steps to meet a girl? Yeah.

[1:33:58] Can you figure out how to meet a girl?

[1:34:00] Yeah, of course.

[1:34:01] Yeah. Okay. Okay, so when was the last time you took, and this is not a criticism, I'm just curious, when was the last time you took steps to meet a girl?

[1:34:10] It was, well, I had a girlfriend last year. We knew each other for about a year, and we were dating for about nine months, and we met online.

[1:34:21] I'm sorry, I didn't know that. What happened with your girlfriend from last year?

[1:34:28] Okay. I don't know where to start with that. I mean, we met online and admittedly, my mum before, God, admittedly before then, my mum was saying, like, you should get on a dating app and meet someone. And I did. Maybe thinking about it, maybe that was always in the back of my mind. Like, just... Sorry, I was trying to thought then.

[1:35:14] Connecting with Girlfriend

[1:35:14] Sorry, you kind of asked me about her and I just brought back a lot of memories with her because she's like the only person I've ever felt really kind of connected with. It just kind of overwhelmed me a little bit.

[1:35:33] Sorry, I'm not sure if you want me to ask the question again or if you're not going to answer it, but it's fine either way.

[1:35:38] Yeah, if you could ask, yeah, sorry.

[1:35:39] Yeah, what happened with your girlfriend?

[1:35:41] Right, um... Well, we... she lived she lived okay so she lived about three hour drive from where i was i mean i don't know what that's like for people in the us apparently that's not too far but for me it was a big leap i mean i barely go out and leave the village i live in so she lived.

[1:36:09] How far away.

[1:36:10] That's a three hour drive okay yeah uh we met online uh we're dating within three months and then met up for the first time i drove up to hers a couple of months into the relationship um and it was i mean it was quite costly for me to go with petrol and how often i wanted to to see i had this just mad drive to just make a connection for the first time in my life and there's no.

[1:36:35] Bus or train or anything right.

[1:36:36] There wasn't no i looked into it and um just wondering yeah there was like hundreds of pounds if it was but yeah all right um but she had her own problems at home and she wanted to she wanted to leave home and she did eventually she kind of used my capabilities of driving to leave a note for them saying i'm fine but i don't want to be here anymore and i took her back here so.

[1:37:06] She moved in with you.

[1:37:08] Yeah yeah she was there for about three months three months maybe.

[1:37:14] Well was that the plan that she was going to stay with you for three months.

[1:37:23] It wasn't, no.

[1:37:24] What's the plan that you guys would stay together?

[1:37:28] Yeah, I really wanted to be with her.

[1:37:30] Okay, so why did you break up?

[1:37:34] Well, she was very, I don't know how to describe it, kind of used a lot at home, just overworked, I think. Her stepdad, her mum's boyfriend, was out working all day, and then her mum wanted to work on her own business at home, which just seemed to be failing for fun, from what I can remember. And she was kind of left to look after her two half-siblings, because her mum had kids with other men. And she just felt...

[1:38:05] I'm sorry, how old was your girlfriend?

[1:38:09] 18 at the time.

[1:38:11] Oh, okay, so quite a bit younger, right?

[1:38:13] Yeah, there's an age gap, yeah.

[1:38:14] Okay. And so she had to take care of her siblings, or half-siblings?

[1:38:20] Half-siblings, both of them half-siblings. okay.

[1:38:22] So then she came to move in with you right.

[1:38:24] Yeah and.

[1:38:27] Why did you break up i mean she wasn't taking care of her half siblings when she was living with you right.

[1:38:32] No of course not no so um, so my mom kind of pressed her to find a job and i mean we opened up like her first bank account i was like teaching her how to like drive and things like that like Like she didn't really get a lot of this at home. And for the first time I felt really kind of like, wow, I kind of had it good in a sense growing up. Like at least I've got these basic things that I can do. Um, she was really pressed to find my, eventually she did and she kept a job for not even three weeks. She got period cramps, didn't know how to handle it, took time off and took more time off. And they sacked her for that.

[1:39:20] So she moved in with you and mom.

[1:39:24] Yes.

[1:39:24] And your mom was kind of bossing her around. Is that right?

[1:39:28] Yeah.

[1:39:30] How do you think that goes in a relationship when your boyfriend's mom is bossing her around?

[1:39:40] Not, um, not great.

[1:39:41] Not good. Not good. Because he looked like a mama's boy, right?

[1:39:49] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And eventually she gave it like a deadline, like if you're not, if you don't have a job and can't pay some kind of rent for me within this amount of time, like I want you out of the house.

[1:40:01] And are you paying rent with your mother?

[1:40:05] I am, yeah.

[1:40:05] Okay. So, I mean, I assume it's deducted rent, right?

[1:40:11] Yeah, she's made it pretty clear that I could be charged a lot more.

[1:40:16] Financial Struggles with Girlfriend

[1:40:16] Um okay so she wanted your girlfriend to pay rent and what were your thoughts about this.

[1:40:26] I thought it was i thought it was fair in all honesty like if i am she should as well like living under the same roof but at the same time i really wanted to just be like you know can you not see where she's coming from like give her a chance stop giving her deadlines and pressuring ringer so much.

[1:40:45] Let me sorry maybe i'm misunderstanding something um why didn't why didn't you pay her rent i mean be the provider be the provider right why wouldn't you pay your girlfriend's rent i mean you invited her to come you knew that she didn't have much work experience and you knew she'd also had a tough childhood, right?

[1:41:17] Yeah. Jesus, why did I not do that?

[1:41:20] So I'm trying to sort of figure out, your mom says, I need more rent.

[1:41:25] Yeah.

[1:41:25] So you'd say, okay, yeah, I'll take care of it until she gets on her feet and that takes the pressure off to get a job, right?

[1:41:36] I'm really angry at myself. I didn't even consider that and I really...

[1:41:38] Oh, no, come on, come on. Don't even try that with me. Mommy's saying I need more rent You have a full-time job, right?

[1:41:48] And she doesn't Yeah Mm-hmm.

[1:41:54] So, and she's also learning all these life skills, like driving and getting a job. She's having big period cramps, which, you know, it's a big deal for women. It's not just laziness. Like, periods can be really, really rough for women. I mean, don't even get me started on the nightmare of endometriosis. But yeah, periods can be really, really crippling for women. I mean, they're not faking it. It's like a bowel migraine, right? or something like that, but it's something that's really, really difficult and unpleasant.

[1:42:27] Yeah, and it's a core of their life. It's substantial.

[1:42:31] Yeah, no, it's, I have a huge amount of sympathy, right? And people say, oh, women have it so much easier. Being a woman, it's life on easy mode. It's like, yeah, yeah, you take some period cramps from weak brother and you tell me how easy women have it. It's just, it's ridiculous. Anyway, so yeah, she has, you know, significant issues and this is her first time away from home. and your mom's like she's got to pay rent so yeah you pay rent for her right, yeah so what do you mean you didn't think of it this this i may be a little critical off just because i i'm a little jaw dropped here like it didn't ever cross your mind what do you mean i.

[1:43:08] I am i am as well i mean.

[1:43:12] That's easy right and then you're the authority yeah, Or, if you say, well, that's expensive, then maybe you could find a place where you could live with her and you could live not with your mother.

[1:43:29] Well, yeah, we tried looking for places. We even got a bunch of stuff to move in together with a bunch of house stuff, spent a couple hundred on that. We tried looking for places left, right and centre. We actually got scammed out of a place as well. what do you mean uh we we gave some some money to someone admittedly we'd not, i've not really looked at houses before i kind of just dived into it um quite rushed maybe looking back on it but um, yeah i i sent some money to a guy for a flat i knew where the flat was i you know it was in a town next to me like i was familiar with the area uh it looked good and yeah i got i got scammed out of 1,700 pounds.

[1:44:14] Oh my gosh. So you gave him a deposit. Did you not get a receipt?

[1:44:21] No.

[1:44:22] So you handed over 1,700 pounds and didn't get a receipt for it?

[1:44:29] I didn't get a receipt, no.

[1:44:31] Was it wired? No.

[1:44:36] Oh, wired?

[1:44:37] I mean, sorry, did you send it electronically?

[1:44:40] Yeah, yeah.

[1:44:41] Well, didn't you then cry fraud and demand refunds?

[1:44:44] Yeah, I did. I did. I got in contact with, I'm struggling to remember names, someone online. Yeah, I sent them tons of screenshots loads of times. I heard nothing back from anyone. Like, I really tried to.

[1:44:58] Oh, so you mean they did not have to tell me which payment processor, but you're saying that you got in touch with the payment processor and you said it's fraudulent?

[1:45:06] Uh them as well yeah and another another group that kind of deal with online scams um.

[1:45:11] Okay so sorry you you contacted i'm just trying to understand that i had something similar um i i gave 900 pounds sorry 900 dollars to a guy to um reserve an apartment and then it, fell through and he said i could have my money back if it fell through he didn't give me the money back i ended up taking taking him to small claims court and got the money back that way but But I'm just sort of trying to figure out, like, that's a huge amount of money. I mean.

[1:45:38] Yeah.

[1:45:41] So you contacted the payment processor and you said this is fraudulent. Yeah. And did they say it's too late?

[1:45:49] I didn't hear a single word back from them.

[1:45:53] Did you get them on the phone?

[1:45:54] I didn't call them, no.

[1:45:59] How many messages did you send?

[1:46:04] Uh can't remember but a fair few yeah.

[1:46:07] And why wouldn't you get them on the phone is this the i don't want to impose stuff.

[1:46:17] Yeah i think it is.

[1:46:18] All right yeah but did your mother help you out with this or say i guess you supposed your dad right but your mother helped you out and say no you gotta get the money back.

[1:46:33] I don't think I even told her about any.

[1:46:36] Of this. Now, you don't have to tell me the number, but just roughly. So there's £1,700. Yeah. No, let's do the math. How much was your mother requesting in rent for your girlfriend?

[1:46:53] She requests £400 a month from me, and when both of us were living together, she was asking for £300 a month.

[1:46:59] Uh for flow it would have been an extra 300 uh.

[1:47:04] Yeah no sorry an extra which she was asking for 300 a month from both of us up from just 400 a month from me so extra 200.

[1:47:12] An extra 200 okay, so 1700 would have been nine months almost eight.

[1:47:22] Or nine months yeah.

[1:47:23] Yeah so why wouldn't you just pay the eight or nine months with the 1700.

[1:47:41] That would have been, yeah, that would have been.

[1:47:44] You literally had the money sitting in your hand, right?

[1:47:46] And I just, yeah.

[1:47:50] I'm sorry. You could have stayed living with your girlfriend for 200 pounds a month?

[1:47:56] Mm-hmm.

[1:48:00] So, okay. And you're saying that never crossed your mind. You've got your mother's demanding money. You've got money in your hand and you never think you're handing it to your mother.

[1:48:10] Honestly, no. No.

[1:48:13] Do you have any idea why that may never have crossed your mind? Of course, it would make sense for your mother to say, just give me the money. You've already got the money, right?

[1:48:21] Yeah.

[1:48:22] You pay. Did your mother ever say you pay? Oh, no, she said, because she said combined, it's 600 pounds a month, right?

[1:48:33] Yeah.

[1:48:33] Yeah okay so basically said you pay me 400 pounds now just pay me 600 pounds and we're square right yeah.

[1:48:41] No she never said that.

[1:48:44] No but she said pay me 600 pounds a month right yeah yeah and you were already paying her 400 pounds a month yes now she didn't say that money can't come from you it has to come from your girlfriend right, So you just, you've got, you just pay her the 200 pounds.

[1:49:08] Yeah, I really, I really should have. I mean, she was very insistent that we both pay rent. Like those are the words that came out of her mouth. So it's.

[1:49:17] And you're 27?

[1:49:19] Six.

[1:49:20] 26. And you were 25 when this was going on. It was last year. Is that right?

[1:49:23] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:49:24] Okay. Okay. So how long did your girlfriend, you said it was a couple of months, she was living at your mom's place, is that right?

[1:49:35] Yeah, three months.

[1:49:36] Three months. Okay. So why did she move out?

[1:49:42] Conflict with Mother Over Rent

[1:49:43] Up uh well we moved out um sort of so eventually just this whole scenario got to me too much and my mom kind of demanding you know you've got three weeks left to get a job and start paying rent and two weeks and one week left and when it got to a couple of days left i just kind of, i let all this out on her in a very kind of angry manner like why can't you just give her some some some slack and just stopped being so demanding of her and it really blew up like it was a good hour of solid shouting from both of us all right and.

[1:50:20] Then what happened.

[1:50:22] Uh my girlfriend said she didn't feel safe even being here well.

[1:50:29] I mean you and your mom are screaming at each other right.

[1:50:31] Yeah no yeah yeah is.

[1:50:32] That fair to say like it was that intense tens.

[1:50:34] It's very fair to say, yeah.

[1:50:35] Okay. And what was the gist of her argument, right? Your argument is cut us some slack, give us a break. It's 200 quid a month. What do you care? Uh, and what was your mom's side?

[1:50:50] Maybe just that rent needs paying and she's living under her roof. She didn't have to take her under her roof.

[1:50:57] No, sorry. The rent needs paying. The rent's already being paid. It's not like the rent goes... I mean, I assume the rent didn't go up because your girlfriend moved in, right? The rent your mother was paying.

[1:51:08] It went up because my girlfriend moved in. Yeah.

[1:51:10] Oh, okay. So your mom doesn't own the place?

[1:51:15] No. No, I don't think she does.

[1:51:17] You don't think she does? What do you mean? You don't think she does? Yes, you should know that, right?

[1:51:20] Sorry, no, I'm being soft in my language. No, she doesn't own the place.

[1:51:24] Okay, so is it charged by the occupant, right? So if your girlfriend moves in, the rent goes up.

[1:51:33] Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is.

[1:51:43] Okay, why do you keep fading out on me, man? Don't make me do all the work. It's your life, right? right?

[1:51:49] Yeah, I'm...

[1:51:50] Okay, did the rent for your mother go up because your girlfriend moved in? Did the landlord say, oh, you have somebody else living in the place, so it's an extra couple of hundred quid a month?

[1:51:59] I see, sorry. That I don't know. I don't know how...

[1:52:03] Okay, probably not.

[1:52:05] Probably not, no.

[1:52:06] Like, probably not, right?

[1:52:08] She just wanted more.

[1:52:11] Well, I don't know, but she was willing to get into a screaming match with you, over 200 quid a month that she didn't even need because I've never heard of a place, I could be wrong, I've rented all over the world. I've never heard of a place where someone comes in. I mean, I, from the age of 15, I was renting out my place. My rent never went up. I had roommates all over. I had two roommates, three roommates at times. Nobody came by and said, well, you're going to have to pay more rent now. I had roommates all through university. I lived in the same room with a guy. The rent never went up. Again, it could be different. I don't know. Maybe things have changed. Maybe it's an English thing. And even if, like, obviously you're allowed to have house guests, right? So you're allowed a certain amount of time. Maybe if somebody moves in for a year or two, but a couple of months, it could be a house guest.

[1:53:17] Yeah.

[1:53:18] So the rent didn't go up.

[1:53:20] The amount did.

[1:53:22] So your mom didn't need more money let me ask you this does your mom spend on anything frivolous.

[1:53:31] Yeah yeah okay.

[1:53:32] What does your mother spend on that's relatively frivolous.

[1:53:37] Uh lots of drinks a couple of holidays with her friends every year.

[1:53:41] Well you know holidays she works hard or whatever right so but uh does she order crap online does Does she have too many clothes? Does she buy jewelry? Does she, does she buy stuff that's kind of frivolous?

[1:53:53] Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I can't move for shoes in this house. I'll tell you it's okay.

[1:53:56] So she's got dozens and dozens of pairs of shoes, right?

[1:54:00] She admits to not wearing for years. Yeah.

[1:54:02] Okay. So she doesn't need the 200 fucking pounds. All right. Yeah. Cause she wastes more than that on shoes a month. I bet.

[1:54:10] All right. She'll come back quite regularly and be like, Oh, look what I've got. That's okay.

[1:54:14] Right. Okay. So, so, She didn't need the money. The rent didn't go up. And is it a flat? It's a flat townhouse?

[1:54:27] It's a new build. It's a house, yeah.

[1:54:30] Oh, it's a house.

[1:54:31] It's a house, yeah.

[1:54:32] And she's renting the house.

[1:54:40] Sorry, I'm not sure if she's renting or not.

[1:54:44] You don't know if she's got a mortgage. You don't know if she's bought. No down payment. No. Okay, let me ask you this. When something goes wrong, who fixes it? If it's a landlord, it's probably a rental.

[1:55:05] Landlord and Household Details

[1:55:06] I feel dumb for even saying this, but yeah, I think it's a landlord.

[1:55:11] All right. How many bedrooms in the house?

[1:55:17] Uh, three.

[1:55:18] Three bedrooms. All right.

[1:55:19] Yeah. We moved in when my brother was still living with us, so the three of us.

[1:55:23] Got it. Okay. So she doesn't need the money and she wastes money. So why does she want the 200 quid and why is it a deal breaker? It doesn't make logical sense, right?

[1:55:43] No.

[1:55:44] So, why is she hounding you and threatening your girlfriend and demanding this piss-stupid amount of money? Come on, man.

[1:56:00] I think it retains some kind of, like, authority.

[1:56:03] No, no, no, no, no. No. The purpose of a system is what it does. What was the result of her demanding this money?

[1:56:25] Well, it ended with me losing my call with her when I was moving out to... but we ended up staying in just a couple of hotels with what little money i had left right.

[1:56:37] And then what happened.

[1:56:39] And that got quite a lot for me um eventually i even lost my job as well um quite unfairly i think um unrelated to work i pulled my back and then they sort of demanded i took time off it was in an electronics work um dealing with heavy batteries and they They said, oh, you can't move the battery for anything. And I was quite insistent. I said, I don't mind just doing wire work in the corner for eight or nine hours. It's fine. But they were very insistent and said, no, no, no, take time off until you're better. And then they fired me for taking days off.

[1:57:14] Moving Between Aunties

[1:57:14] um and then after that i just i thought i had nothing like i'm just going from hotel to hotel don't have a job i don't know what i'm doing my bank account's depleted been scammed like it's just i just i hated all of it and then she said that she had her auntie up where she lived up near where she lived who would sorry she being your girlfriend my girlfriend yeah um she said she had an auntie who we could we could crash with for a bit and even her auntie came down quite hard on us saying like you know she's got her own kids that are working and in college and, one of her daughters was sick and she's struggling to provide for her and then all of a sudden we rock up like can we have a place to stay and she came down quite hard on us for that um so we left her and went to another auntie's house how long.

[1:58:02] Were you with that aunt.

[1:58:03] Oh a day a day a day so So she says.

[1:58:06] Come and stay with me. And then she says, get the hell out.

[1:58:08] No, she did. She didn't. My, my girlfriend just, this is the thing. My girlfriend just kind of said like, oh yeah, she'll take us in. She's nice.

[1:58:15] Okay. And then, so you went from aunt to aunt and then what happened?

[1:58:21] With the second of her aunties, we stayed at, um, she kind of said the same thing as the, as the first, just that, you know, we need to find jobs, et cetera. And I thought that was fair enough. But by, by that point, I just felt like really bad. sofa surfing essentially just going from place to place um not really having a direction in life and honestly a big part of me felt bad for just how i'd left things with my mom and i just i thought the best plan would be to for me to go back and live with my mom and for my girlfriend to stay with her auntie i'm sorry so.

[1:58:57] Um with your mom you had this hour-long scream fest right.

[1:59:02] Yeah.

[1:59:02] And then did you say, that's it, I'm out of here? Or did she order you out? Or how did it end up that you moved out?

[1:59:10] Just after my girlfriend said that she felt unsafe even being there. I put that first and said, okay, we'll get up there.

[1:59:19] Resolving Issues with Mother

[1:59:20] Right. Okay. And did things come to any resolution with your mom? Were there any apologies or promises to do better or?

[1:59:30] Uh, I, I apologized. Yeah.

[1:59:33] Oh, you apologized?

[1:59:34] I did.

[1:59:37] And your mom didn't?

[1:59:40] No.

[1:59:43] So you apologized, but then you felt bad for how things were left with your mom?

[1:59:48] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:59:49] How long have you been listening to what I do?

[1:59:53] On and off a while, but consistently for the past few months.

[1:59:57] And when did you first hear about what I do? Or first listen to my shows?

[2:00:02] Through my dad, actually. Obviously, he used to do a lot of stuff with politics, so that's kind of what got me into it first. Then a bit of history content, and then, yeah, I'll do this. This kind of stuff. When?

[2:00:17] When? When? Wow, and why, and what, when? When did you first listen to what I do?

[2:00:24] I first listened to a piece of yours maybe five or six years ago.

[2:00:28] Okay, got it. Just wondering. Okay, so you grovel before your mom and she lets you back in, right? Something like that?

[2:00:41] Yeah, and eventually I did find work. I'm at the job I'm at now. I've been there for six months. The least I can say is that I have a job.

[2:00:47] Rebuilding Life and Providing Rent

[2:00:48] I'm providing rent once again, and money's coming back in.

[2:00:52] And what happened with your girlfriend over the course of you moving back in with your mom?

[2:01:03] So I went to visit her a couple of weeks later at the weekend.

[2:01:08] No, no, sorry. So you split up with your girlfriend, but it wasn't a breakup? Like you went to move back in with your mom?

[2:01:13] Yeah, yeah. So we were still together, just not physically together.

[2:01:18] Okay, got it.

[2:01:19] And I went to see her a couple of weekends later just to spend some time with her. And she got quite desperate. She wanted me to just bring her back with her. She said she was happy to.

[2:01:29] Sorry, bring her back with her. I'm not sure. Bring her back with you?

[2:01:33] I said with her didn't I sorry bring her back with me yeah yeah.

[2:01:36] The fact that you referred.

[2:01:37] To yourself.

[2:01:38] As a her is.

[2:01:39] Noted but we won't.

[2:01:40] Pause too much on that.

[2:01:41] Yeah um.

[2:01:42] Girlfriend's Desperation and Homelessness

[2:01:42] So she wanted to move back in with your mother and you.

[2:01:46] No she wanted well she wanted to she knew obviously I was staying down there she wanted to basically she was willing to find a homeless shelter nearby she was willing to sleep sorry she.

[2:01:57] Was willing to live in a homeless shelter nearby.

[2:01:59] Yeah Yeah. She was willing to sleep in my car outside our house. I mean, she got pretty desperate.

[2:02:09] Wow.

[2:02:09] For us to stay together. Yeah.

[2:02:12] Okay.

[2:02:12] And I mean, I considered it.

[2:02:14] All this because you wouldn't part with 200 pounds a month.

[2:02:19] Yeah. That's, yeah.

[2:02:21] Obviously, it cost you way more. How much money did you spend on hotels?

[2:02:27] Ooh.

[2:02:28] 1,000, 2,000 pounds?

[2:02:32] Well over a grand, yeah.

[2:02:33] Well over a grand.

[2:02:34] Yeah.

[2:02:35] Okay, so we're talking, you know, whatever, 3,000 pounds, right? At 200 pounds a month?

[2:02:44] Yeah.

[2:02:46] 3,000 pounds? That's 15 months?

[2:02:51] It is. It is.

[2:02:56] Okay. So by demanding the money, your mother put a huge amount of stress on the relationship in the hopes of breaking you up so that you'd be all hers again and she wouldn't have to deal with a girlfriend. Because that's what happened, right? You're back now with your mom.

[2:03:13] Yeah.

[2:03:13] Is it just you who lives with her now?

[2:03:16] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you understand.

[2:03:18] Your mother didn't want to be alone, so she had to break you up and the girl. So she puts all these demands on, she becomes aggressive, she provokes you to rage. And then the girl, and you are in this huge stress, you get it. So she's breaking up you and the girl, so she has a companion.

[2:03:35] Yeah.

[2:03:36] Am I wrong?

[2:03:39] The only part of me that's ever denied that that might be the truth is that, well, my brother found a girlfriend. They've been together seven or eight years. they moved out. She was sad to see him go, obviously, but yeah, they did everything I've been trying to do and she's been great with that and they get on.

[2:03:58] And are you the younger brother?

[2:04:00] I am, by about a year and a half.

[2:04:02] And how did I know that?

[2:04:08] Kind of seemed like an afterthought, like the second, the youngest.

[2:04:11] No, the reason that I know that is because it's the younger sibling sibling who's hung on to by the mother. It's the youngest sibling that's clung on to by the parent. The only single mother will let the older kid go because she's got her teeth into the younger one. You're the designated substitute husband. You're the companion. She doesn't need both, right?

[2:04:43] No, it's like she's got one.

[2:04:44] Yeah, because you see, if you're both home, then you're going to encourage each other to move on. But if it's just you, why didn't you go and stay with your brother? Why are you in these, like, weird arts couches?

[2:05:13] I really don't know. I really wish I did. I don't know why.

[2:05:16] What are you talking about? He's your only brother, right? I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but, I mean, this is jaw-dropping. He's your only brother. You've been kicked out of your mom's place, or you're bailing out of your mom's place. You need a place to stay. Why are you in hotels? hotels. Does your brother know about this conflict?

[2:05:35] Yeah.

[2:05:36] Okay, so your brother knows. My god. Brother, I have to leave my mom's place. She's being a total witch to my girlfriend. I'm desperately in need of a place to stay. And what does your brother say? Good luck, kid. I hear there's some nice hotels out there somewhere. Are you kidding me?

[2:06:06] Jesus.

[2:06:06] How ridiculous is your family? How terrible is your family? Did he offer you, God, come here? Absolutely.

[2:06:14] No, he didn't offer.

[2:06:17] Why not?

[2:06:20] I don't know. I mean, yes, you know.

[2:06:23] You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know.

[2:06:28] I mean, him and his girlfriend are making over 100k a year together.

[2:06:32] So they've got a place for you to be, right?

[2:06:34] Yeah.

[2:06:37] So, why didn't they offer to put you up? Not forever, but, you know, till you get on your feet.

[2:06:44] Yeah.

[2:06:55] I mean, do you not get along with your brother?

[2:06:58] We're not super close, but I do get along with him, yeah.

[2:07:03] So then why wouldn't you say, yeah, I need a place to stay, man? Literally help a brother out, right? If you're close, right? Or reasonably?

[2:07:22] Reasonably close. I mean, we don't. ever organize anything together ourselves it's always been if my mom recommends getting together, did.

[2:07:34] You ever talk to him about like why didn't you offer me a place to stay but and why you know and also like why you didn't think to ask right yeah.

[2:07:46] No yeah i don't think to ask.

[2:07:47] So where the hell are you in your own life you You don't offer to pay for your girlfriend. You don't try and get the money back assiduously that you got ripped off from. You don't ask your, I'm not criticizing, like you don't ask your brother for a place to stay. He doesn't offer. It seems to me you're surrounded entirely by people who aren't looking out for you. And as a result, it seems you don't know how to look out for yourself.

[2:08:19] Myself, yeah.

[2:08:21] What was the final straw with your girlfriend?

[2:08:26] Uh well in her desperation to come back down here and just be as close to me as possible, i tried doing that and i tried driving her back down here and i'm not really sure i can't remember how but my mom eventually found out about that and just got very angry with me said she's not coming back here she accused me of thinking with my dick oh god um Um, and I, I, I didn't know what to say to that. I just, I, again, I, I blew up and like very, very regretfully, I blew up my girlfriend for it. And I just, I.

[2:09:05] Sorry, you did what with your girlfriend?

[2:09:07] I got angry at her. I don't even know why I.

[2:09:10] Oh, you got angry at your girlfriend.

[2:09:13] Yeah.

[2:09:13] Because your mother was upset that your girlfriend was in the vicinity. I mean, you weren't, she wasn't moving back in with your mother, was she?

[2:09:19] Not into the house. No.

[2:09:22] So like the car thing?

[2:09:24] Potentially.

[2:09:27] All right. And your mother was like, I don't even want her in a car in the neighborhood. Is that right?

[2:09:32] Yeah.

[2:09:33] Okay. So then you got mad at your girlfriend.

[2:09:39] Yeah.

[2:09:40] And then what happened?

[2:09:41] I drove her back to where she was staying before and just, I just gave up. I dropped all her stuff off. And I'd even bought her a phone, and I asked for that back, and I just left.

[2:10:00] Wow, you took back the phone? Yeah. It's kind of cold, man.

[2:10:08] It is, it is. This is kind of what made me cool, like I've just been thinking about.

[2:10:14] And then you moved back in with mom?

[2:10:16] Yeah.

[2:10:19] And this was late last year, early this year?

[2:10:24] Late last year, about six or seven months ago.

[2:10:31] And why are you living with your mother? Don't tell me about it's the money you're saving, because that ain't the case. I mean, you think of how much money you spent on petrol and your girlfriend and hotels and more petrol and phones, right? So it's not to save money, because you invested all of that money, you know, thousands and thousands of pounds into a relationship. relationship and then you and your mother combined to set fire to all of that money so it's not about saving money so why are you living with your mother, doesn't save you money doesn't give you much of a chance to date so why are you living with your mother.

[2:11:22] I'd say i don't know where else to go but i mean i have a couple of friends who i'm trying to look into moving into a place with if I'm perfectly honest I mean they seem quite distant from even doing that, sorry.

[2:11:37] I mean I'm misunderstanding something, why do you need friends to move into a place with I mean you can just be a roommate right, maybe it's not perfect maybe it's not forever it certainly wouldn't be forever but why is it dependent upon other people? I mean, I moved like 18 times in 10 years when I was younger. Almost always ended up with roommates or something like that. And, you know, you interview them and, you know, sometimes it's not perfect, but it's not forever. So why are you living with your mother? I mean, you just had an absolutely horrible time with her, right? with regards to this girl?

[2:12:27] Yeah.

[2:12:27] So why are you back? I mean, she's pretty nasty to you and your girlfriend. And very insulting to you, thinking with your dick. It's very crass, right? Very coarse. Very trashy. And I bet you she'd never speak to a student that way, right? yeah so why are you living with your mother.

[2:13:08] Feels like a it feels like it's the only place I can go I know it's not it obviously isn't but.

[2:13:15] Okay that doesn't answer me any questions so why does it why does it feel like it's the only place you can go when it's obviously not yeah, All right, I guess because we've got time for pressing on, right? So does it benefit you or your mother for you to live with your mother?

[2:13:36] It doesn't benefit me.

[2:13:38] Who does it benefit?

[2:13:39] Yeah. Oh.

[2:13:40] Right, so you're pleasing your mother because she wants someone else in the house, right?

[2:13:44] Yeah, of course.

[2:13:45] It saves her some money and she has some companionship and somebody to eat meals with, or I don't know, I guess you disappear a lot into your room, but there's someone else in the house, right?

[2:13:53] Me separately, yeah, yeah.

[2:13:55] Right. right and your mom is in her 50s 60s uh early 60s early 60s right and she's got a boyfriend.

[2:14:04] Yeah they've been seeing each other for about four years now.

[2:14:06] Okay, right so yeah i mean if you were my son i'd have kicked you out years ago get out into the world go do something i.

[2:14:20] Wish i wish someone had yeah.

[2:14:22] Of course yeah no i get at that and i i sympathize with that like it's a charles murray thing where he's like you know if i had my way i'd drop my kids in a foreign land in a foreign country with no language skills and no money and see them survive right because they would yeah and finally your ancestors uh, crossed a three-week sea voyage with cholera and smallpox and survived right oh but i can't move into a smaller place yeah right it.

[2:14:47] Really does make me feel pathetic i like seeing my ancestors like well knowing that they survived like the black death and then yeah it's just it's ridiculous.

[2:14:55] Right so i mean it's just choices and consequences right you can choose to keep pleasing your mom at your own expense and no decent quality woman will find you attractive.

[2:15:16] Yeah.

[2:15:18] I mean, I hate to say mama's boy, like it's somehow your fault, but it seems to me that you've been raised to just please your mother and not think about yourself.

[2:15:27] It goes that way. Yeah.

[2:15:28] And then the moment that something was mildly inconvenient to your mother, which was your girlfriend being there, she's like all over you with her needs and her preferences are get out and screaming and right.

[2:15:39] Yeah.

[2:15:39] Okay. So the good news is that your mom has no reason to object with you doing what you want, even even if it's unpleasant to her. Because she's given you that template, right?

[2:15:55] Sorry, again.

[2:15:57] Well, your mother wanted rent money for no particular reason, right? Yeah. Your mother wanted rent money and was throwing around ultimatums and making everybody feel really uncomfortable and making things really difficult between you and your girlfriend and screaming at you to the point where your girlfriend felt in danger. i assume that your girlfriend came from a verbally abusive environment which your mother would have known so by verbally escalating and abusing she's triggering your girlfriend and causing massive amounts of discomfort pain and agony all around her oh.

[2:16:26] Yeah i understood that when she said you wanted to leave like before we.

[2:16:30] Yeah for the sake of 200 quid a month which is bullshit right yeah, it's not like she needed the kidney or she was going to die it's nothing right so you know the good news is your mom is like yeah i'll do what i want damn it and if it causes if other people discomfort, well, too fucking bad, they can deal with it. So you, you know, if you're moving out and your mother's like, no, it's not a good idea. It's bad. It makes me uncomfortable. It's like, well, no, mom, you, you just gave me this whole life lesson that you do what you want. Even if it's inconvenient to other people, it doesn't matter. It was inconvenient for me for you to demand 200 quid a month for my girlfriend. Um, and you went ahead and did that. So you can't complain if I'm doing something that's uncomfortable to you. Like, I mean, you can complain if you want, but it's just kind of silly, right?

[2:17:17] Yeah.

[2:17:19] So your mother's selfishness has given you, if you want, I mean, I don't know if you want it or not deep down, but it's given you full permission to do what's best for you, regardless of how much it upsets your mother, or anyone else for that matter. But certainly your mother, right? The good news is you never have to please your mother again, ever. If you want. I mean, that's the logical result, right? Because she did things entirely destructive to you for the sake of no money at all. Really? and so she just acted like really selfishly and in a destructive manner because that's what she wanted so the good news is that that removes all obligations, for you to consider your mother's feelings in the future, like you view this as traumatic I mean okay whatever but it's totally liberating, philosophically speaking right, now you can pursue what you want to do in life completely independent of what your mother wants you never have to take her feelings feelings, or needs into consideration ever again. Because not only did she do this, but you groveled and apologized, and she never apologized for anything. She did this absolutely terrible thing. So did your father.

[2:18:33] So you are, if you want, you're now completely liberated from ever having to take her feelings into consideration ever again. Just do what you want, and if she squeals about it, just say, yeah, yeah, I get it. but you know this is like the situation with me and my girlfriend but you did what you wanted regardless of how harmful it was to others so I'm just doing the same thing what are you going to do cry about it give me a break.

[2:18:56] Yeah I've, struggled to muster up that kind of mindset really I've just wanted to distance myself from I know it's I think I know it's what I want but want to do but.

[2:19:14] Yeah, So you basically have the same emotional content at the end of the call as the beginning, right? I'm not entirely convinced we've made any progress at all. It's like, yeah, I want this, but I don't know. You don't have to do any of this. I mean, you can absolutely spend the rest of your life being smothered, right? Doing what your mom wants and giving up your own life.

[2:19:48] I really don't want that.

[2:19:50] I don't know. I mean, a part of you, certainly the part of you that conforms to your mom does want that, right?

[2:19:58] Yeah. But I know that's not going to get me anywhere in life. Certainly not where I want to be. Certainly not in any kind of dating scene.

[2:20:11] No, but if you really understood that, then you wouldn't have any ambivalence. You wouldn't be like, yeah, I'm kind of trying to muster that stuff up, right? I mean, my view, you're kind of a broken down guy around your mother and I sympathize with that. I'm not blaming you. I can really sympathize with that. But you can't have any strength and authority and independence and be attractive to a woman if you're kind of broken by your mom, right?

[2:20:42] Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely a lot more chatty with people, even just at work. Just, obviously, I'm away from my mom.

[2:20:50] Right. And your brother shouldn't have left you back, right?

[2:20:55] No.

[2:20:56] He should have tried to help you out, right?

[2:20:58] Yeah. Hmm.

[2:21:03] So it seems to me that you're also kind of released from obligations to your brother. Your brother probably left you behind so that you'd block your mother's attempts to get time, energy, and resources from him.

[2:21:31] I've actually never viewed my brother in any kind of negative light, to be honest.

[2:21:42] Well, why are you talking to me, not him? Oh, why isn't he phoning you up and saying, or coming over and saying, listen, bro, man, I mean, help me, you know, what's going on with your life? Like, this is not, something's not working for you. What can I do? How can I help? Is he circling back to help the wounded, so to speak?

[2:22:14] No.

[2:22:17] Did you tell him what your father said to you?

[2:22:22] Yes, yeah, I did.

[2:22:23] And what did he say? i.

[2:22:25] Mean he did he distanced himself from a while ago as well but uh he seemed i mean, i can just hear myself i just want some fucking passion to come out of me man seriously.

[2:22:41] Did your brother know what happened between you and your mother and your girlfriend late last year.

[2:22:55] I don't no I didn't tell them directly.

[2:22:59] What do you mean directly did you mime it what do you mean directly I.

[2:23:03] Didn't I didn't tell them.

[2:23:05] Okay so why do you still keep fogging everything up, look you have to you just have to make a decision it's, Are you worth something or not? Are you there for the convenience of others or are you there to live your own vivid life? Now, listen, man, there's great convenience in being there for others. There's great, because you get to just wrap yourself around their needs and get to appease them and think about them and, right? Your life's decisions are kind of made by whatever other people want and need and prefer and, right? it, right? Now, occasionally yeah, you'll blow up and you'll scream and you'll get really angry but then you just kind of sink back into this half-spineless torpor and, right, there's great attraction in not having to be assertive.

[2:23:59] Yeah.

[2:24:00] Otherwise, everybody would be assertive, right?

[2:24:03] Yeah, of course. It's easier in a sense.

[2:24:06] Sure, yeah, it's easier. And it's easier to do what mom wants and it's easier maybe to do what this girl wants and not try and figure out what you want and what your values and your standards are. Because you don't think about your own interests. You don't. And you don't notice when you're ignored. Mom did not like your girlfriend, right? So you drive her home, dump her off, and take back your phone. Because that's what mommy wants, right? Your brother doesn't offer you a place to stay Don't even notice, You don't even tell your brother About the big You know, the biggest catastrophe of your adult life, wasn't it? What happened with this girl?

[2:25:05] Oh, sorry, um, yeah.

[2:25:07] Yeah You don't even tell him Do you know why you don't tell him? Because he won't help And he'll give you some vague pat-pat and not get involved, I assume. And you don't want that coldness. You don't want that feeling of unimportance, right? So you just have to look and say, okay, am I important or not? Now, I don't agree with it. I don't think it's right. But you can say, well, I'm not that important. I'm not that special. I'm not that interesting. So the best thing I can do in life is just appease other people's narcissism, right? Just be there to serve them. No, be there to serve them. Be the water that pours into the containers if everyone needs. No needs of my own. No preferences of my own. I mean, your loyalty to your mother was so absolute, it didn't even cross your mind to pay for your girlfriend. Instead, you burned money on useless hotels instead.

[2:26:05] Yes.

[2:26:06] Because your mother says, I want the money from her, or I want the money. and your mother says from her so of course it can't be from you because that's not what mommy says, So these are around people. It's almost like you ghost yourself. Does that make sense?

[2:26:26] Yeah, it does.

[2:26:27] And I sympathize with that. I'm not blaming you for anything. My heart goes out to you, brother. Give you a big hug if I could. I hugely sympathize with that because you weren't raised to have needs. In fact, your needs were opposed. This is why I got so angry at your father with the et tu, Brute? Comment that you have needs that contradict your father's and he calls you a murderer and ghosts you and sends back your graduation picture or your photo, right?

[2:26:51] My brother's, yeah.

[2:26:52] Yeah, your brother's. So you were raised with any needs of yours being attacked, rejected, and punished. So you have to make that decision. I can't make that for you. Nobody else can. Your parents certainly won't. Your brother won't. Am I worth something? Now, if you're worth something, that's the first thing. Say, okay, I am worth something. Everybody wants to say that, right? You want to say that. Nobody's going to say, I'm worth nothing. I could hear you rebelling against, yeah, you could live like this and carry water for everyone else. So you say, I'm worth something. Okay. That's not the big issue. The big issue is not saying, I'm worth something. The big issue is, what do I do with people who don't agree with that?

[2:27:48] What do I do with people who don't agree that I'm worth something if I'm worth something what do I do with people who treat me like I'm worthless, that's the big question you want to be worth something, but if you are worth something and brother you are if you are worth something, then the people who treat you like you're nothing are dangerous and toxic and destructive. Because there's a war over your soul. There's a war over your spine. There's a war over your willpower, and it's ferocious. Are you worth something? Or are you a mere tool for the convenience of others?

[2:28:39] I believe I am worth something. And if anyone disagrees with that, I need to just say, fuck them.

[2:28:49] I mean I wish there was another way I don't know one I've been around the block a couple of times around the planet 57 almost so yeah, if I believe that I'm worth something and I have great value, there are people who don't believe that you know when I started doing this show like 18 years ago I genuinely and deeply believed that I had great things and things of great value to offer the world. That this was my mission. This was my calling. This was my church.

[2:29:27] Yeah, that was your motive to get going, essentially.

[2:29:30] How many people in my life who disagreed with my assessment of the value I had to offer came along with me?

[2:29:41] Zero.

[2:29:42] Yeah, zero. I can't live a contradiction. I can't say I'm very important, and I'm also great pals with people who think I'm not important. I can't split myself like that. If I have value, hey man, other people have value too. I'm not selfish like you don't have value. You have value, I have value. We have equal value. You have value. you. And people who treat you like you don't have value, who aren't thinking of your needs, who aren't trying to be considerate, who aren't trying to help, who aren't trying to figure out how can I best help you get what you want in life, which is a parent's job. Your mother's job is to facilitate, oh, you should go and date a girl. Hey, I dated a girl. Look, maybe you're the 18 year old girl coming to live with you and your mom when she was just out of a trauma. Maybe that wasn't the best plan. Maybe that wasn't the best approach. Okay, so what? So you figure something out.

[2:30:44] Find a way.

[2:30:45] You find a way. Maybe you get her some social services. Maybe you get her on some welfare. Lord knows you pay taxes for it, right? Maybe you get her some apprenticeship job. Like, maybe you get her something. Maybe you get her to a doctor to deal with these period pains. Like, just do something to help her.

[2:30:58] It doesn't matter.

[2:30:59] If that doesn't mean that you end up in some lifelong relationship, there's things that you can do other than screaming at you and kicking you guys out half, right?

[2:31:07] Yeah.

[2:31:08] So your mother should be focused on that. your mother cracked your heart in fucking two over 200 quid a month. She took a battering ram to your first serious adult relationship for pennies.

[2:31:33] Which is for nothing.

[2:31:34] For nothing. Didn't need the money. And she wastes more than that on shoes.

[2:31:40] For sure. Yeah.

[2:31:44] And you had to grovel and apologize to her. And you're back.

[2:31:51] And I really meant that. She wants you there.

[2:31:53] Sorry?

[2:31:54] The girl I was with, I genuinely really fucking miss her.

[2:31:58] I can't hear you, sorry.

[2:31:59] Sorry, the girl I was with, I just, I miss her so much.

[2:32:09] But mom got angry at the girl, and you acted out mom's anger. Am I wrong?

[2:32:15] No, yes, that's right.

[2:32:21] So you don't want that to be happening again, do you? and your mom as far as i understand it has never seen anything wrong with anything she did or has ever done other than some vague maybe i should do better x y and z right yeah.

[2:32:39] That's about it.

[2:32:39] Right, so you have to think am i worth something yes i am what do i want what are my standards what What are my values? So you have to be in relationships with people who think of your needs as well as you thinking of their needs. Now, who is it in your life who thinks deeply about what you need and how to provide it to you?

[2:33:14] Mother's Boyfriend's Influence

[2:33:14] The closest i can say to that is my mom's current boyfriend because he's the nicest but i i don't really know and.

[2:33:24] Did your mother's current boyfriend know anything about what your mother was doing last year.

[2:33:31] I can assume so but i i didn't i didn't tell him so if.

[2:33:35] If your mother and your her boyfriend have a good relationship, then she should have told him. Now, if she's telling him, I'm demanding rent from my son's first girlfriend, what would a decent boyfriend say to her? what would a decent boyfriend say to your mother who's willing to scream at the top of her lungs at you for an hour over 200 bucks a month.

[2:34:14] Calm the fuck down for a start cut them some slack are.

[2:34:17] You fucking crazy you're going to put your entire relationship with your son on the line for 200 quid a month Are you crazy? What are you doing? Chill the fuck out. I mean, he just lost his dad because his dad was an asshole. Don't also be an asshole. Whoa. Not the right goal for him. It's like, lady, you're on your 18th fucking boyfriend.

[2:34:52] She's had quite a few.

[2:34:54] Yeah, I get it. So maybe, you know, you don't have the greatest credibility when it comes to choosing people.

[2:35:02] She told me once when she was drunk as well. I think she was a little bit drunk. The night she split up with the boyfriend she'd had for 15 years, she kind of just hooked up with a guy. That's for what they did. I don't know.

[2:35:15] God help you ever knowing, right? Yeah. So I don't view the boyfriend as great because he would have mediated this, right? He would have stuck up for you, you know, man to man, help a brother out, right? And if your mother is this selfish, there's no way she's going to have an assertive boyfriend who's actually going to help her son, because what would she do with an assertive boyfriend? She'd kick him to the curb, right?

[2:35:44] Yeah. Yeah, I don't see him as assertive around her. Okay.

[2:35:48] So, no, he's as useful to you as tits on a ball. Thank you. Are you worth something?

[2:36:09] Of course you are.

[2:36:10] Of course you are. And I'm sorry that just about everybody has acted otherwise in your life. For that, you have my absolute deepest and most humble sympathies, my brother. I really do. I'm so sympathetic. That hasn't been said. You've got to stop this cringing.

[2:36:35] Yeah.

[2:36:37] Nobody is coming to serve your needs. You're just going to have to find a way to do it yourself. And other people are going to kick and scream. I sympathize with that. Let them. It's not your job.

[2:36:59] Worth Something

[2:37:00] Yeah that's that's all i really want right now in life.

[2:37:03] Right, so let me let me let me offer you this i mean i don't know if you've ever done talk therapy before.

[2:37:19] No this is this is the first time closest thing i've ever done to something like that.

[2:37:22] Yeah yeah i mean i'm not a therapist but listen i would strongly recommend talk therapy therapy if you're low on cash and i get your young working man and all that i'd be happy to kick in some money for you to go and see a talk therapist because look this is this is tough stuff to work with i've been there listen you understand i was not born with a spine i mean i i'm right there in the trenches with you and i still of course fail with regards to assertiveness from time to time so this is after you know a long time of working on it so i don't want you to feel like like you're left behind or you're lost behind or anything, you're further ahead at your age than I was. So, you know, be proud of that and... Feel good about that, that you're confronting these issues in your mid-20s is fantastic. I mean, honestly, I know it doesn't feel fantastic right now, but it really is. So I would make a strong recommendation to find a good talk therapist. Probably, you know, maybe a man would be great. Somebody who's not, you know, softy, wokey, whatever, right? And if you can pay for it, great. If you're having trouble paying for it, you can, you know, ping me and I'll send you some cash and you can work with that. But yeah, that would be my suggestion because, of course, you're worth it. You're worth an enormous amount. Man, anybody who listens to this show is my brother or my sister, and everybody who's into philosophy is my brother or my sister, and you are worth an enormous amount just for listening, for having this kind of conversation.

[2:38:45] So that would be my suggestion. See if you can get into some talk therapy and start squirreling some money away. Save, save, save, right? So you can say, oh, well, I live with my mom. It's like, yeah, save some money. Then save some money. Don't spend it on frivolities. I'm not saying you do, but save your money like crazy and don't be dependent upon everyone else as to when you get your own place. that's your choice that's your will.

[2:39:07] Yeah no I really I really do appreciate the offer I don't know how much those sort of places cost I've not really seriously considered it before but I do have a few grand now stuffed away probably yeah.

[2:39:20] It probably is a worthwhile thing to to look into but yeah just that fundamental thing I'm worth something and other people who disagree sorry Sorry.

[2:39:33] Apologies.

[2:39:34] But yeah, I mean, like, I'm worth something. And if you don't agree, like, okay. I mean, I'm not going to fight you, but I don't have any interest in that stuff, right?

[2:39:45] Yeah. Geotherapy was something my girlfriend at the time recommended as well. I didn't even seriously consider it.

[2:39:54] Right. It can be great if you get the right person. And, you know, there's a lot of the woke stuff going on, but, you know, I'm sure you can find someone, but yeah, be skeptical and make sure that it's someone you really connect with. But that would be my strong suggestion. And, you know, just again, I mean, a big hug and, you know, massive sympathies for what you went through and everything that's in a sense been taken from you, but you can end up in an incredibly great and strong place as a result of that. And I feel very strongly that that will happen.

[2:40:26] Honestly thank you yeah.

[2:40:27] You're very welcome man will you keep me posted.

[2:40:30] I will yeah i will and i i yeah the only other thing i was thinking is i just i just, i was almost wondering if i wanted to like well i do but if me and my now ex could ever work things out despite how i left everything.

[2:40:45] Apologize and Restitution

[2:40:45] Well here's the thing you know there's there's that magical beautiful thing that you can do is you can contact her yeah and just be like hey you know know whatever happens i absolutely should not have left it that way that was totally the wrong thing to do i'm buying you another phone like no matter what happens no matter what happens this isn't like hey if you want to talk i'd love to talk this is not right but i did it the wrong way i'm really sorry i crumbled before my mom's anger i'm not proud of it but i'm gonna do what i can I'm really going to apologize because for her, seeing somebody take responsibility and make some restitution probably would be a great thing. And it's great for just the conscience to do that, right? I mean, I don't look, I don't know everything that happened and all of that. So, but I'm sure that there are things that you regret and just, you know, be honest with her and say, listen, I really regret this. This was the wrong thing to do. This is the wrong approach. And here's, I'm going to make it up to you without expectation. Like, and therefore you've got to have lunch with me or whatever, right? But if you contact her with just apologies and restitution, that's a very powerful thing. I don't know where it leads, because that's her free will, but that's something I would, it's probably a good thing to do, I think.

[2:42:03] Yeah, I mean, I was, just throughout the relationship, I was quite, I could have been more present in the moment, for sure.

[2:42:12] You can say all of that. And here's the thing too, when you, the, the, the beautiful thing about apologizing to others is you then start expecting apologies from others. Because you can't really expect others to apologize to you, except maybe parents, if you never apologize to them. So when you take ownership of something you did that's wrong, which we've all done, right? If you take ownership for what you've done that's wrong and you make apologies and you make restitution, then when other people don't do that, it's really liberating because you know what needs to be done and you know you've done it yourself. So you have a good conscience that way. And then if people are just self-righteous and won't apologize and won't take ownership and so on, then you know that and it's very liberating. So it's really beneficial to you to apologize because then it becomes an expectation for others.

[2:42:55] Yeah, exactly. You expect it from other people. You become more aware of it and then you can just easily filter out the people.

[2:43:04] Right. Okay. So I do, I do. I'm afraid I do have to boot, but I do want to thank you for the call. You did fantastically, by the way. I know probably it feels a little frustrating sometimes, but that's, you know, we, we got through and connected and that's, you know, the great. And you did just a wonderful, wonderful job. So I hope that you'll keep me posted. and I really do thank you for the call today.

[2:43:23] I'll do my best. Thank you. Just thank you very much for everything.

[2:43:26] You're welcome, brother. Take care. Bye.

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