"How can I get in contact with my daughters again?
"I'm a divorced father who has not had contact with my two daughters for more than 4 years. I last saw them in early January 2020. The last time I saw them was a day or two after our family Christmas get together, where we had an argument about food and diet. My eldest daughter (15 at the time) had become vegan a short time before the Christmas get together, and neither her, or her mother told me about this, and so we catered for a vegetarian, and the argument occurred because she was complaining there wasn't any food for her (the day after the event) and that was the first time I found out she had turned vegan. She could of mentioned this on the day of the event, as my sister-in law and mother picked up the food after everyone was there. After the argument, my eldest found my smoking herbs (damiana) and accused my of taking drugs and asked to be dropped back at her Mum's place. The last time I have seen or heard or them.
The separation of her mother and I happened back in 2017. Whilst tutoring in my office in the evening, I came out at the end to find the house empty of people. I thought they had gone to the shops but started thinking something was not right after a few hours, and the mother would answer any of my messages or calls. There was no note. 3 days later she came back with the kids and a police escort to collect some of hers and their stuff.
She had put me on a VRO, and it included the children (10 and 12) so contact with the kids became impossible and difficult, but managed to find ways for it to happen even though I was constantly thwarted by the mother.
There is way more to this story, but I am requesting a call in because I have tried reaching out, apologising, getting angry etc and nothing has worked, and now seeking guidance on what I should do next.
Can you help Stefan?"
0:00 - Family Turmoil and Separation
14:45 - Past Relationship and Incidents
28:21 - Regrets and Occupational Choices
32:57 - Impact on Time with Children
38:41 - Reflections on Parenting Time
42:05 - Noticing the Absence
50:49 - Transition in Father's Availability
1:05:02 - The Parental Dynamic
1:12:11 - Strained Relationships
1:13:30 - Parenting Reflections
1:14:51 - The Confusion Unveiled
1:23:50 - Childhood Trauma Revealed
1:28:26 - Mother's Response
1:32:15 - Lack of Restitution
1:36:02 - Revisiting Past Mistakes
1:38:00 - Fateful Matrimonial Choices
1:40:56 - Traumatic Memories Resurface
1:42:05 - Words of Empowerment
1:48:38 - Relationship Reflections
2:07:28 - Unveiling the Truth
2:21:37 - The Price of Lies
In this conversation, a caller opens up about the heart-wrenching situation of being a divorced father estranged from his daughters for over four years. He details the challenges he faced, including legal restrictions and difficulties with communication, seeking guidance on how to navigate the emotionally taxing situation. As he reflects on prioritizing work over spending time with his kids and acknowledges his lack of awareness about his daughters' emotional needs, the caller delves into a deep introspection of his past choices and their impact on family dynamics.
The discussion with Stefan revolves around the caller's struggle to balance work and family time, prompting a reflection on his upbringing and relationship with his parents. Stefan challenges the caller's justification for neglecting family time and emphasizes the importance of honesty and communication in nurturing familial bonds. They explore the significance of self-awareness and addressing contradictions in beliefs and actions to better understand past experiences and their influence on current relationships, especially with the caller's children.
As the conversation progresses, the caller shares a traumatic childhood experience of violence inflicted by his father, with his mother failing to protect him adequately. The host underscores the importance of addressing the trauma to break the cycle of intergenerational trauma and foster healthy relationships with the caller's daughters, highlighting the value of self-worth and combating low standards in relationships. Stefan stresses the need to understand the impact of past experiences on present relationships and advocates for setting high standards to promote personal growth and healthier connections.
Exploring the impact of past childhood experiences on relationships, the conversation emphasizes the necessity of facing truths and holding individuals accountable for their actions to overcome challenges in forming meaningful connections. By advocating for honesty, self-reflection, and setting high standards, the dialogue aims to pave the way for healthier relationships and personal growth, underscoring the importance of open communication and understanding the repercussions of untreated childhood trauma on current relationships.
[0:00] I'm a divorced father who has not had contact with my two daughters for more than four years. I last saw them in early January 2020. The last time I saw them was a day or two after our family Christmas get-together, where we had an argument about food and diet. My eldest daughter, 15 at the time, had become a vegan a short time before the Christmas must get together and neither her or her mother told me about this. And so we catered for a vegetarian and the argument occurred because she was complaining there wasn't any food for her and this was the day after the event and that was the first time I found out that she had turned vegan.
[0:49] She could have mentioned this on the day of the event as my sister-in-law and my mother picked up the food after everyone was there. After the argument, my eldest daughter found my smoking herbs, Damiana, and accused me of taking drugs and asked to be dropped off at her mum's place. The last time I have seen or heard of them. The separation of her mother and I happened back in 2017 whilst tutoring in my office in the evening I came out at the end to find the house empty of people I thought they had gone to the shop but started right after a few hours and the mother would not answer any of my messages or calls there was no night left either three days Days later, she came back with the kids and a police escort to collect some of her stuff, hers and their stuff. She had put me on a VRO and it included the children who were 10 and 12 at the time. So contact with the kids became impossible and difficult.
[2:04] I managed to find ways for it to happen, even though I was constantly thwarted by the mother. There is one more to this story, but I'm requesting a call in because I have tried reaching out, apologising, getting angry, etc. Nothing has worked. Now, seeking guidance on what I should do next. Can you help, Stefan?
[2:34] Oh, what a, so sorry. What a terrible, tragic, sad story. And I just, I'm really, really sorry about all of this. Of course, for everyone involved, it's a disaster and a half. And I just wanted to sort of mention that up front. And I'm happy to hear more, maybe the history of the marriage or childhood stuff or red flags or wherever you want to take it, it's fine with me.
[3:09] Yeah, I suppose maybe I'll just go back a little bit and I can go back further if you like. But the youngest child was born in 2006, and during both pregnancies, the mother was suffering quite a fair bit, so she wasn't able to do much move around. She obviously had to quit work, and she was off work for about another five years after the birth of the second child. And so during all that time, we moved a couple of times, and I pretty much did all the moving, and I was working full-time as well, of course.
[4:10] And not long, probably a few years after the birth of the second child, I was starting to find that the wife was becoming more and more distant from me. And I'll probably go back even further when we first met in a minute, But yeah, this is the sort of thing that led to the separation. And...
[4:43] Whilst on the surface everything looked all good, I was getting very little physical contact, like not even hugs or kisses, let alone anything beyond that. And by about 2016, the year prior to us or her leaving, really, rather than us separating, I'd already been seeing a psychologist for depression based on some incidents that had occurred around the place at my workplace that sort of got me down. And so obviously I went and saw him and spoke to him about how things were going in the marriage. I tried to get her to go to counselling to see if we could sort something out. She would just be saying to me that she can't trust me emotionally and that I was the cause of all the problems and so counselling didn't end up working out. Now, that year, I remember receiving two phone calls at the house by some male who were asking for, oh, sorry. That's fine.
[6:13] I'll get rid of that. Sorry, go ahead.
[6:17] And when I asked if their name and if they could leave their number and what it was about, you know, because at that stage I wasn't suspicious about anything going on at all and I don't think it was an affair. Fair, I feel like it may have been in organization to her preparing to leave. That's what I tend to think, but I could be completely wrong, and I'll probably never ever find out either. And so the second one, I think, was... Like somewhere around August or July or August, September, somewhere around there. And later that year, I went on a trip with a mate of mine down south and he was asking me some questions about how the marriage was going and I was saying, oh, it's not looking good that we talked about separation.
[7:28] And talked about counselling, which obviously that didn't end up happening. And he asked me, do you think she'd ever leave you? And I said, oh, I don't think so. I don't think she's the sort of person to do that. I said, if anyone's going to leave, it's probably going to need to be me. And then on that day when she just left, it was a massive, massive, massive shock to me. And on the Saturday, it was a Saturday morning when I knew that she'd tested me to let me know that she's coming around with the police. I immediately tried to contact my brother to see if he could come to the house to support me and to witness everything that went on, to which he was too busy, he couldn't do it, and so I ended up contacting my mum, and just so you're aware, they were both about an hour away, and my mum and, had uh immediately got in the car and they came to the house and um.
[8:49] Yeah and whilst i even recorded the whole thing and i had a chat with the girls when they were there and i asked them you know um what's going on do you know anything about what's going on they said no we don't we we don't know what's going on and i said um well well, you know, are you happy with this? And they said to me at the time, no, we're not happy. We told mum we're not happy with this. And my oldest... Sorry, just closing myself.
[9:33] No, that's fine. Take your time. I sympathise.
[9:38] My oldest daughter told me that she would call me every night, and that didn't happen and she didn't end up contacting me that's when I found out I was on a VRO and the kids were on the VRO, and that meant that I'm not even supposed to contact them in any way at all and I um I I did try to contact them I mean I was I was really frustrated with the whole situation um I.
[10:24] Ended up being allowed to have supervised visits, which I had to pay for with these women who wouldn't even let me make a phone call while I was in the, in the, during the meeting. Um, and, uh, it was very difficult. So for example, at one stage I'd forgotten that I'd organized some tutoring on the same cause we'd changed the time for this, one of these meetings.
[10:55] And I just said, look, I just need to contact my client to let them know that I'm not going to be there. No, no, you can't make a phone call. I said, look, it would be rude for me not to at least contact. It will only be like a minute. I need to just let them know. And that caused all sorts of things. In the end, yeah, I ended up not doing those because it just seemed like it was a waste of time. I couldn't talk with the girls properly. They were always around watching everything we were doing. I had to pay for them if we went somewhere as well. And it just felt like I was just some guy that was entertaining the kids. I couldn't even be a father. And that's probably where I made some mistakes was that eventually when I did get to have time with the kids after many years. So basically, I ended up getting arrested by my wife said I had breached, this is still in 2016, had breached the VRO, the Violence Restraining Order, by contacting her.
[12:11] And they came around and arrested me. I was put in lockup cell for the night. I tried to fight it in court the next morning, but I was still found guilty, and I managed to get, I can't remember what it's called now, but managed to get it off the record.
[12:35] Oh, like expunged?
[12:37] Not expunged. It might come to me a bit later, but basically it's on your record, but employers can't see it. Because consider it was my first.
[12:53] Sealed?
[12:53] Sealed? No. No, no. Yeah, I'm sorry.
[12:57] We don't need to. Yeah, yeah, okay.
[12:59] But in any case, I managed to be able to get that, and so I could still continue to work because obviously I have to work with children and stuff like that as a teacher and a tuner and yeah and so in 2017 about but by October that was when my VRO the actual court case was and I I managed to be able to negotiate with her lawyer that I could have supervised visits with my mother as the supervisor. And so that was the agreed thing and therefore the BRO was dropped at that point. And I had visits with my mum present and I thought those went fairly well. At the time, my daughter was starting to get into one of those.
[14:15] She was just, it probably has something to do with the separation obviously, but she was constantly in a bad mood And we're always trying to pick arguments and we had arguments about her music because she was going down that depressing sort of music and starting to wear, you know, darker clothes and all sorts of other bits and pieces.
[14:45] And interestingly enough, I mean, I used to be a goth when I was like a teenager or actually as an adult, 18 to 21 or thereabouts, listening to Sisters of Mercy and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, I could- Sorry.
[15:02] What was the argument if she was doing what you did? It's a little tough to argue, isn't it?
[15:10] Well, the difference was that I was an adult and I'd left home by that stage when I was listening to some of that music. And that music wasn't depressing. It wasn't depressing the way. I'm just trying to think of the actual singer, one of the female singers, Billie Eilish. Billie Eilish. And, you know, we listened to it and stuff. I just was saying to her, look, I don't want you being obsessed about one particular type of music or one thing because, you know, I was also a keyboard player, so, you know, I used to listen to jar and stuff like that as well.
[15:57] And you're a big Sting fan, so I was into Sting. I used to listen to classical music I listened to a little bit of pop and all that but also got into a little bit of alternative rock and all that sort of stuff so I was just sort of saying to my dog, she was so young too when all this was happening and it was starting to influence her mood so it was more about that sort of a thing and whenever, I tried to introduce her to all the other different types of music including including maybe even some of the stuff that her grandparents would listen to.
[16:33] It just ended up being a bit of just one of those things where we'd have a little bit of an argument or that she would be in a mood about it. And the whole time, her younger sister, who's only a couple of years younger than her, we just never seemed to have any arguments. She used to race to the door when I was dropped off. And interesting enough, when I eventually had totally unsupervised visits, the mother would drive around the corner and drop them off around the corner. And so I never would even see them arrive. They'd all of a sudden just turn up at the door. But my mum was saying that my youngest daughter was always the first out of the door with a smile on her face and...
[17:29] Be a little bit later.
[17:31] Yeah, sorry if you didn't remember to stay off the names.
[17:35] Oh, sorry.
[17:36] No, no problem.
[17:37] Yeah. So then we started having arguments about diet because she turned vegetarian and I didn't have any real problems with her being a vegetarian except that she was extremely fussy and vegetarian. So she wouldn't eat certain vegetables. She didn't like this vegetable and that vegetable. And I said, you know, I'd say things like, well, you can't just eat chips and cheese. You know, you need a balanced diet. You're heading into puberty and you need to have, give your body.
[18:16] Okay, sorry, I want to make sure that we stay on the philosophical aspect of the conversation, you know, conversations with your daughter about how many vegetables and what type to eat are not the most philosophical of topics. And again, I appreciate the details, but I'm happy to hear more. But yeah, that may be a bit granular for me.
[18:37] No worries. And so anyway... Yeah, things had a, we basically started drifting apart a little bit. And some of the, we did have arguments about the vegetarianism because when we're in the supermarket, all of a sudden she'd be saying, oh, you know, but we're not, you're not like a lion. A lion can just eat the animal, but you need tools. And I come with the counter argument saying that, well, a lot of agriculture is, is because we have got tools. And so you sort of can't use the idea of tools as an argument, et cetera, et cetera. And so, um, Yeah, so when it came to the Christmas situation.
[19:39] We'd actually had massive fires, bushfires here in the state that I'm in. And in the town that I was in, I'd moved out to a remote town to teach and we were surrounded by fires and the town was locked down. So I wasn't even able to get to the city, which was about, it's about a 10 hour drive, about eight hours, nine hour drive from where I am. And I'd been staying up like 24 hours, almost 24 hours a day, checking for reports when the roads would be open so that I could leave and go and catch up with them for Christmas. And eventually I ended up writing to the emergency services and I got a special pass so I could drive on the roads and I got there the very next day we had the Christmas, the do, and afterwards I just slept. I was just, because I'd been up for, because it'd been like four or five days where I was just waiting to try and leave and so I virtually had no sleep and I was using the Damiana as a relaxant to help me be able to relax from the stress and...
[21:07] Sorry, using the what?
[21:10] Damiana. Damiana. It's just a... Sometimes people use it for cutting into other types of herbs and like marijuana and stuff like that but just used on its own. It's a very mild, um, uh, relaxant, very mild one.
[21:31] Okay.
[21:32] Um, so it's a legal herb and you can just buy it at, um, tobacco shops and stuff like that generally. So it's, um, it's not, it's not illegal, but, um, but, uh, the, cause I was sleeping, um, a lot and they ended up, um, when, when I did get up and she, she, told me about the food thing, and then it turned into a big argument about, as I've described before, and then obviously the smoking implements came up, and that was the last time I've seen the girls.
[22:11] Sorry, the which incident, the smoking? Yeah.
[22:14] Yeah the smoking incident um you know the smoking implements that came in at the end and um oh and she thought that they were drug paraphernalia yes okay and they weren't.
[22:25] For you they were just for the sleeping stuff.
[22:27] Yes and i and i never did it in front of them i tried to be very subtle and all that sort of stuff as well but um yeah at um she was at that age where obviously uh um Um, like they can read signs like, like, and probably while I was in the toilet or in the showers, I probably went into the room and saw the stuff anyway. So, um, um, yeah, so that was the last time I've seen them and I, I haven't had any contact with, uh, any of them at all, um, since then. And so it's been, uh, about four and a half years. I'm currently on a VRO. row um was uh sorry that's a new one right yes and i'm sorry what was the i.
[23:13] Know these things can of course sometimes be unjust but what was the uh provocation or the story for that.
[23:22] Um according to the wife it's because i was um upsetting them when i was sending them texts um in particular i was this is um 2020 was an interesting year as you know and um i'd been, putting in some a fair bit of research because everything seemed a bit suspicious as far as the virus was concerned and so a lot of my texts were in the lead up to um the vaccines coming out and I've even got the emails now saying to the wife that I don't want the kids to have these vaccines. And I downloaded the Pfizer papers as well. And so I'd been trying to communicate with the girls and tell them, I don't want you, you don't need those vaccines. Vaccines, that I sent them the Pfizer papers so that I could prove the fact that, look, here are the papers. Look at the nine pages of the side effects that are on the back of that paper.
[24:36] And apparently that upset them, and so they were put on the VRO as well. And in August last year, I was sending texts to my oldest daughter and to my youngest daughter, which I wasn't supposed to be.
[24:58] And my eldest daughter put in a complaint and I got arrested and I had to go to court again for a correction.
[25:09] Was it vaccine related? Is that what you were sending the text about or was it something else?
[25:14] Yes, it was about, and it's interesting because the police had to read out my texts that she was complaining about, and it was directly related to the vaccines, which I think now is, it had something about, you know, I will be vindicated, you know, about my views on the vaccine. thing. In fact, I'm already being vindicated and that's going back a while. As you know, even now people aren't believing that they're bad and that they helped us through a situation. So no doubt my daughter with my ex-wife who's a very mainstream sort of a person and I very much doubt that they did anything but watch regular TV and regular news.
[26:07] Okay, so, sorry, I don't want to obviously relitigate the vaccine stuff, so if we could move to the next part.
[26:17] And, yeah, so the VRO is ending in a little less than two months away. way. They're both turning, the eldest is turning 20 this year and the youngest is turning 18 this year. And I have spoken to a psychologist a couple of years ago, a different psychologist as well as in this small town. And I did about five sessions, but I didn't feel like it was going anywhere. I tried some of his advice about what to say to the girls, and I never got any responses. And I'm now at the point where I'm not sure how I can, whether it's even recoverable really, but whether I'm able to, after the VRO is over, I'd like to try and obviously, contact them again and create an open line of communication and that's where we're at the moment.
[27:41] Sorry, just remind me how many years has it been since your wife left?
[27:46] About seven and a half because it was literally at the beginning within two weeks of the start of 2017.
[27:59] So your daughter's sort of 10 and 12 or something like that, right?
[28:03] Yeah, 10 and 12. And so it's been a very long time. It's been full of a lot of turmoil. oil and it's obviously not good for them. It's at a key age for them as well.
[28:21] And I feel like I made some mistakes as well. So, you know, as a teacher, I was teaching for a while and then I ended up trying to pursue a business, social media marketing. I saw it as an opportunity since the social media thing was going off the rails at the time. This is going back to about 2012.
[28:56] And that business failed after about six months. I lost about $70,000 and I ended up opening, tutoring business which was quite successful but I ran it from home and so I think a lot of that was a mistake because what would happen is I was obviously doing tutoring after school when they would normally be getting home and I wouldn't see them until I'd tutored from 3.30 until.
[29:35] 7.30 and by the time the last client left and I come out, it'd be heading towards 8 o'clock in the evening and obviously I missed a lot of time.
[29:49] That's just bath time and bed time, right?
[29:52] Yeah, and I also cheated on Sunday mornings from 8 to 12, so, I feel like in hindsight insight, that was a big mistake, even though it was as far as a job was concerned, it was the most rewarding job I've ever had. And I got a lot of positive feedback from my clients.
[30:14] Sorry, but why did you do the tutoring business when your kids were young? What age were they when you started? Sorry, you did the social media stuff in addition to your teaching?
[30:27] Yeah, well, what happened is in 2011.
[30:32] I'm sorry, you have a lot of words and I appreciate that. I just need some concise answers. So you did the social media marketing business and the tutoring business as well as your regular job as a teacher, is that right?
[30:48] No. In 2011, I was teaching in a Catholic college and there There was a complaint by some of the students because they weren't, well, one student, they weren't doing very well. The student's dad was on the board of the college. And so I was taken off the class, even though I was running three of that same course. This is like a year 11, year 12 course in mathematics.
[31:24] And, um, uh, my two other classes were out of all, then there were four classes of that particular course running. So two of mine were the top two classes. Then there was someone else's class and then there was this class. And even though I argued the point that I was told this was a particularly weak cohort, et cetera, et cetera.
[31:50] They still took me off the class and I got depressed. I ended up leaving that job. I took another job in a public school, but it was just insane. The behaviour was insane, so I quit that job. and while I was in a depressed mode, that's when I ended up seeing a psychologist, I also found the opportunity for the business. So I looked into it a little bit and everyone around me was like, go for it, give it a go. So I gave it a go, failed and then I took on the tutoring business. In the meantime, I thought I'd look for another job But the, I ended up getting something like 24, 25 clients and, um, it wasn't huge money or anything like that, but it was satisfying and I enjoyed doing it. And I really didn't think about the fact, uh, and until a lot later that, um, that I'm missing a lot of time with my children by doing this. And so how long.
[32:55] So how, how long did you do the tutoring business?
[32:58] Um, from 2012 to 2000 and.
[33:03] Uh 19 right okay so 2012 your kids were pretty young right five and seven six and eight something like that yeah.
[33:16] They're on primary school at the time that's right.
[33:18] So for quite quite a few years or at least until certainly until your wife left you were seeing them relatively little right.
[33:29] That's correct.
[33:33] And did you, and you said it didn't cross your mind that you were spending less time with them?
[33:39] No, because I would still see them in the evening and I would spend. No, no, sorry.
[33:45] No, come on, come on. You can't bring this up and say, well, I'm spending less time with my children. And then I say, and did you think about that? And you're like, well, no, no, I still saw them. Like that's totally contradictory, right? If you're going to say, I spent less time with my children, and I say, did that cross your mind? The answer can't be, well, I still saw them.
[34:04] Well, at the time, it was only as things progressed that I really realized that I was losing that time with them.
[34:14] Sorry, what do you mean you realized that you were losing? I mean, you knew that you were losing that time with them, right? I'm not trying to be harsh or anything. I'm just trying to understand. Like, I mean, you weren't in a coma. Like, you knew that you weren't spending time with your children because you were spending, you know, afternoons and evenings and then Saturdays, I think you said 8 to 12. And, you know, of course, you still saw your kids and all of that, but the weekdays were kind of wiped out, right?
[34:41] Yes, and I would take as much opportunity as I could on the weekends to spend as much time as I could with them.
[34:47] Okay, so I understand that. I understand that. What I'm trying to figure out is, You knew you were spending less time with your children. And from their perspective, what does it look like?
[35:15] I'm not really sure.
[35:16] You're not sure okay so you had you said 20 to 25 clients is that right that's right and these would be kids that you're tutoring right, yes and you said that it was the most rewarding thing you've done right in your life.
[35:35] Um occupationally wise yeah.
[35:36] Yeah so wouldn't your kids see that daddy is spending Spending all his time with other kids and really enjoying it?
[35:46] I also would tutor them. So I'd have them come into the home office. Okay.
[35:54] Sorry.
[35:56] I just need us to be able to stay on the topic.
[36:00] I feel like I'm trying to grab a bar of soap and it keeps jumping out of my hand. Wouldn't they see that you are spending a lot of time with other kids, right? Did you tutor out of the home?
[36:12] No, I was tutoring in the home.
[36:14] Oh, so you would go and visit the other kids, right?
[36:19] No, no, no. The clients came to my house.
[36:23] Okay, yeah. So there's a parade or a constant stream of kids that daddy is spending time with that aren't me and my sister or your daughters, right?
[36:36] Yes.
[36:36] So they would perceive you as spending a lot of time with other children and not them? Wouldn't they?
[36:49] Well, I presume so, yes.
[36:52] Sorry, I mean, they would see that, right? I mean, that's the empirical fact. Now, we can say, you know, like, well, you have to make money and all of that sort of stuff. But, you know, from a five-year-old or a six-year-old kid's perspective or a seven-year-old kid's perspective, it's that dad has a lot of time for endless numbers of other children, but not nearly as much time for us in that way.
[37:18] Well, look, I understand where you're coming from. No, no, it's not where I'm coming from.
[37:23] I'm trying to understand where your daughters are coming from.
[37:26] But I would spend every other available time when I wasn't tutoring and that they were there, I would spend all my time with them.
[37:39] Okay, so then it's not a problem. So what you're saying is the problem you said was a problem isn't a problem because you said only later did I realize. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Let me talk. Look, you said, and I'm just trying to clear up the communication here, right? So you said, I realized later I wasn't spending nearly as much time with my kids as I should have or I wanted to or something like that. Do you remember that?
[37:59] Yes.
[37:59] Okay. So then I point out how it is from your daughter's perspective. And then you say, no, no, no, but I spent all this other time with them. So, which is it? Did you not spend enough time with them, or did you spend enough time with them? If you spent enough time with them, we'll move on. If you didn't spend enough time with them, I'm going to try and understand it from their perspective. Because you're trying to figure out what's happened with your daughters, right?
[38:27] Yeah, well, what I'm sort of saying is that at the time, I didn't think it was an issue. It was more of something, especially once the marriage had broken up.
[38:42] That I see that in hindsight, that even though I did spend weekends with them and help them get organized in the mornings and stuff like that, I have to concede that in hindsight, I don't think it was the right thing to do for as long as I did. It probably wasn't a problem to get by, to get started, and then to move on once I got myself back on my feet. But I just think it would. And the thing was, too.
[39:16] Okay, so you have to let me take some leadership in the conversation. I mean, you don't have to, but I'm not going to do the conversation otherwise. Right? So if you have an answer and a defense for everything, there's not much point talking. Right? So if I'm not going to have any input, I'm pretty good at this, would you say?
[39:35] Yeah.
[39:36] And you have an answer and an excuse for everything. Now, if you have that, then there's nothing to be fixed, right? Right. Right. Then I have no input. And then all you're here is justifying everything you did, in which case I don't need to be here. Right.
[39:53] Right.
[39:55] Because you took 3.30 to 8 o'clock, right? Weekdays, right?
[40:00] Yeah.
[40:01] And you took 8 to 12 Saturdays.
[40:04] Yeah.
[40:05] And you also had a paperwork, right? Did you have to mark these kids or you're just tutoring them so they didn't do any tests for you? How much work did you have to do outside of this time, right?
[40:17] If I did do any work outside of that time, it would have been while I was at school.
[40:22] Okay. But you're 25 to 30 hours that normally, if you were a teacher, you'd be spending with your kids to some degree. And you didn't spend that because you were tutoring, right?
[40:37] That's right.
[40:38] Right. So my issue is this. why didn't you notice you weren't spending as much time with your daughters in other words why didn't you say I miss my children too much I have to change what I'm doing.
[41:00] Ah well, I tried to when I was speaking to the wife about it, but she always just encouraged me to keep going.
[41:15] And keep doing it. That's not an answer. That's not an answer. It's got nothing to do with your wife. Like if my wife said to me, hey, I'm going to go and take a job for six months overseas, what would I say?
[41:35] Well, I'd presume you'd say, why would you do that?
[41:39] Well, I'd say, I really would rather you didn't because I would miss you too much. So my question is, and this is, you know, going back a ways, right? My question is, if you didn't notice that you weren't spending enough time with your daughters, though in hindsight, you feel that that was too little, like you spend too much time away from them.
[42:05] What was going on at the time where you didn't say i really miss spending time with my daughters you know they come home from school at 3 30 at 4 o'clock i don't see them till 8 or 8 15 or whenever i have whatever right and then i've got to get out of being tutor head and and some of the time i spend with them i'm tutoring them as well which is not exactly fun daddy daughter time so what was going on in your heart and in your mind back then where you didn't say or it didn't strike you, My gosh, I really, really, really miss spending time with my kids. This is too much.
[42:46] I don't know maybe i was just too self-absorbed i.
[42:50] Mean but that's that's tautology right so i mean why were you focused on yourself not your daughter well because i was self-absorbed but that's just another way of saying the same thing so what do you think was going on because i mean i assume that i assume that your daughters came home and wanted to see you or wanted to spend time with you and you're busy and and wouldn't you be like well i i'm i'm missing half their childhood and i i miss you know i want to go to the creek and and hunt for crayfish and and uh and frogs like i want to play monopoly i like i want to spend time with my daughters, so what was missing for you and i'm not saying this is any deficient thing within you i'm just like something in the marriage or something in your heart or whatever where you wouldn't say, i miss my daughters so much because i'm spending 25 to 30 hours less a week than i could, And why can't I, maybe I can do remote tutoring with people in a different time zone so I can get it done during the day. Or, you know, I can find something else that is not going to subtract this much time with my daughters.
[44:04] Because I guarantee you my friend that your daughters knew you didn't miss them to the point where you would change your behavior because kids are incredible I mean you know you're a father right you know how sensitive kids are and I don't mean oversensitive I just mean that they see everything and they know everything so your daughters were aware, that you did not miss them enough to even notice how little time you were spending with them. Does that make sense?
[44:37] Yes.
[44:38] So that's the question.
[44:41] Well, I can't answer that, Stefan. I don't really... When I think back, I wasn't aware of it for myself. I just wasn't aware of it. So you didn't miss them?
[44:59] Enough. I mean, no, it didn't even cross, it wasn't like you're like, well, I really miss them, but we need the money or whatever, right? And those things can be, all right, I mean, I'm currently not spending time with my daughter because I'm talking to you, right? So, I mean, I have a job and you can't just stare at your kids 24-7, right? So, but you didn't even notice it. And I know this sounds like a big criticism. I'm not, I'm genuinely curious, right? It didn't cross your mind for years that you weren't spending enough time with your kids, which means that you didn't miss them. And it wasn't even like a competing thing, like if I really want to spend time with my kids, but I need to earn this money, it was like, didn't cross your mind, it sounds like. And again, I know this sounds like some big criticism, I don't mean it that way, I'm like, you didn't miss them.
[45:40] I did.
[45:42] No, you said, oh my God, you're driving me crazy. You said it didn't cross your mind.
[45:50] You've got to remember, it was over a like a six-year period that I was running that business and I would actually take time like if I didn't feel like tutoring, I wanted to spend some time with the kids. Sometimes I would just cancel it. I did try to spend as much time as I could when I wasn't doing the business with them and Okay.
[46:14] So you have an answer that evades any feedback. Again, we were just back at the same place. You sell me it didn't cross my mind that i wasn't spending enough time with my kids and i said well that means that they would perceive that you didn't miss them and you're like no but i did and it's like okay so i mean you know this is probably what happened with your marriage too right i'm not saying your wife wasn't at fault but you're a slippery son of a gun right like you make stuff up in the moment and and then if there's something that might be mildly critical or negative or then you just change the story immediately and and no reference and like It's just like a maze, right?
[46:55] Well, I tried to discuss this with the wife, and I said that maybe I should be- No, no.
[47:01] Why are we talking about- I've got a problem with you. Why are you talking about your wife?
[47:05] Well, I'm just sort of saying I've had these discussions with the wife, and- Sorry, which discussion?
[47:11] Which discussion?
[47:12] About the fact that I'm not spending enough time with the kids, and that maybe I need to change- Okay.
[47:19] So you did notice it at the time?
[47:22] Yeah. Yes. Yes, maybe not straight away, probably not in that first year or so, but then after that I was starting to notice it, yes.
[47:33] Okay, so when you started to notice it, which is new to me, right? So when you started to notice it, what was the problem? Was it that you missed your kids or what? You missed time with your kids? Like what was going on?
[47:49] I just felt like I was starting to not, and have as much of an influence with them.
[47:59] So it was practical things. It wasn't that you missed them. It was just that...
[48:04] I did miss them, Stefan.
[48:05] Okay, so when did you start to miss them or spending time with them as much as maybe you could?
[48:17] Probably um four and a half years or so into the into the business.
[48:21] Okay so when they were relatively little six and eight or whatever you didn't miss them but then about a year and a half into it you started to miss them is that right no.
[48:31] I i yeah i suppose yeah.
[48:35] Sorry i i don't know what to i don't know what to make of i suppose uh if it's accurate it's accurate and i know it's It's not down to the last day, and if it's not accurate, it's not accurate, but I can't build a castle on fog, right?
[48:49] Well, maybe I kept on going even though I did miss them, because I did miss them, because I do love my children. I mean, before that, I was taking them to karate three times a week when I was working as a teacher.
[49:02] Oh, so hang on. So, sorry. So, they went from you being a very involved father to you being significantly absent, right?
[49:10] Yeah.
[49:11] Okay and what i'm trying to get their perspective into your head how did they experience, the removal of most of the time you were able to spend with them at least weekdays and saturday, how did they experience you taking them karate three times a week spending lots of time with them to you being largely spending time with other kids and working with them. So how did your children experience that transition? And did they know that it was a regretful necessity that you had to do because you'd lost $70,000 in the social media marketing business and you really regretted it, but you know, I've got to get your finances back in order and, or did they see you just kind of vanish? Was it explained to them why you were no longer available to them for a significant proportion of the time that you used to be available?
[50:16] I'm not sure.
[50:19] Well, how was it explained to them that you were busy? Because, look, I mean, I've raised, obviously, I've raised a daughter that age, right? And, you know, by, you know, your last customer or client is leaving at eight and, you know, you've got to tidy up and you've got to finish things up and see them out. And then you've got to switch into parenting mode. So it's like 8.15, 8.30 and so on. And then, you know, at that age, they're getting ready for bed, right? Or bathing in bed and all this past dinner and past playtime after dinner. and all of that, right?
[50:48] Yeah. Okay.
[50:50] So how was available dad to way less available dad, how was that explained to them so that they could understand what was happening?
[51:05] Well, as far as I'm aware, they knew it was my work. And I don't know.
[51:17] Well, of course they knew it was your work. I understand that.
[51:24] At the time, I don't even know if I didn't think that they were missing me. I mean, I knew that.
[51:31] Ah, okay. So that's interesting. Okay. So that's important, right? It's very important. So you went from being very involved to much less involved, and you didn't think that they would notice or care or it mattered? Okay, so you felt unimportant to them, right? Now that's interesting. So why do you think you felt unimportant to them like it wouldn't matter whether you were spending time with them or not? That they wouldn't miss you when you were spending 30 hours less a week with them?
[52:17] Don't know.
[52:19] But that's a big question, right? Did your own parents enjoy spending time with you?
[52:34] Yeah, I would say so. So, I mean, I was brought up in the 70s and the 80s, so a lot of times it was me getting out on the bike with the others playing cricket and stuff out in the ovals. And then on the weekends, Dad was in the Air Force, so on the weekends he'd spend time with us and take us, he'd go diving and so he'd take us to where he'd go diving and we'd hang around, my brother and I would hang around the beach and the rocks.
[53:17] So you said he was in the Air Force, was he gone for that at times?
[53:24] Occasionally, they'd have training missions and all that stuff that they'd need to go off for occasionally, but not very often. He ended up being a suitable ranker that basically meant that he was able to be back by five o'clock or whatever. The time we spent, it was one of those typical sort of 80s family where you'd come home and we'd be getting home before dark, that sort of thing.
[53:57] Sorry, from what age were you roaming the neighborhood?
[54:02] All ages, really, from about 10, 10, we wouldn't be very far, we'd just be up and down the street playing handball.
[54:14] Sorry, sorry, from the age of 10, right?
[54:16] Yeah.
[54:17] Okay, so your daughter was six, though, right?
[54:20] Say again?
[54:21] Your daughter was six or seven, your youngest, when you started tutoring business?
[54:25] Yep, yep, about that.
[54:26] Okay so that's four years or so before you were off doing your own thing number one number two she's a girl not a boy yeah right so girls tend not to go around roaming the neighborhood and hanging out with the other girls and and you know, digging in creeks and building forts like that's a that's a boy thing right.
[54:50] Yes, and I never had sisters, so I've only really learned about women from my mother and from my own personal experiences, I suppose. So, yeah, bringing up girls was a big learning curve for me.
[55:08] Yeah, I mean, you could read about how to raise daughters and like it, but, you know, they're slightly different animals than boys, right? More dependent and more connected and less, you know, the boys often want to cut off the apron strings and roam the planet, right? And the girls a little less inclined that way, usually. And how close were you with your mother when you were growing up?
[55:35] Say again?
[55:36] How close were you with your mother when you were growing up?
[55:40] Um i feel like i was pretty close with my mom yeah um, i still i still do have a pretty good relationship with her and speak with her once a week on the phone um occasionally try and visit she's still three and a half three hours away from me. So it's not as easy as I was hoping it would be when I'm on the TV, because I've just been in a new job as well from that small town in an effort to be closer to the city so that I could catch up with my mother and my friends a little bit more, but it hasn't quite worked out that way. But I do feel like I've got a pretty good relationship with my mother, yes. Okay.
[56:35] So you told your mother, you said, look, I've got kids who are, I've got two little girls aged six and eight, and I'm going to be doing 30 hours of tutoring, which cuts into my time with them. And what did your mother say?
[56:51] Um i probably would like they wouldn't have been part of my decisions anyway but no no i'm not i'm not i'm not saying you were asking permission and i didn't say it like that and i don't i don't think it even crossed their mind that that was also the case i don't um i don't think Like, they even understood that that was probably the consequence of having a job like that.
[57:26] So, did you tell your parents about, I mean, you must have told them about your new tutoring business, right?
[57:34] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[57:34] Okay. So you told them about your new tutoring business. Did either your mother or your father say, that's going to be a tough transition for the girls, because you've been hugely available, now you're much less available? So, you know, maybe their parents with lots of experience, and your mother is a female, so she knows a little bit more about daughters, right? So did your parents give you any feedback on, you know, make sure that the kids know what's going on? And, you know, that's a big, big change for them, right? I mean, they've got this super close dad, and now he's really busy not spending time with them, and so that's kind of wrenching for them. It's a big change.
[58:10] No, it wasn't brought up at all.
[58:16] Why do you think not?
[58:24] And well, the way they would probably put it is that I'm smart enough to make my own decisions and that they trust that whatever I'm doing is in the best interests of myself and the family.
[58:50] But they were catastrophically wrong about that. because your family exploded.
[58:59] Yeah.
[59:00] So, what the fuck, man? Well, they trust me to... No, they're supposed to be your parents. They're supposed to help you. I mean, are you saying that they had no idea that there could be any problems in your marriage, you wouldn't need any feedback? I mean, they knew you were depressed, right? Did you tell them you were depressed and that you lost one job, maybe because of politics, and you lost another job because the parents... Oh, you quit another job because the behavior in the classroom was insane, the public school. I mean, they knew you were struggling, right?
[59:33] I probably wasn't speaking to them as much during that period of my life. Oh, no, no, no.
[59:41] No. See, this is part of this reversal thing. I ask you, are you close to your mother? What do you say?
[59:47] Yes, I am now.
[59:48] Yes, I'm close to my mother. Okay, well, then she knew you were struggling. Well, I didn't tell her any of that. Well, then you're not close. You keep trying to have it both ways. Do you understand?
[1:00:04] Well, I was confiding in my wife at that time. That was my partner.
[1:00:11] Okay. Was confiding in your wife solving the problem?
[1:00:16] No. No.
[1:00:17] So then you talk to your parents because you're close to your mother. Now if you don't talk to your parents then you're not close because if you're struggling and you're like well I don't want to talk about this with my parents then you're not close, I just this drive me crazy you keep wanting things both ways oh I'm totally close to my parents oh well then when things were going falling apart with your wife and your family and your career and your kids did you talk to your parents? nope, so what is it? Which is, are you close to them or do you, like, not talk to them about stuff?
[1:01:03] I'm probably going to drive you insane because I'm going to say maybe both.
[1:01:07] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely no both. That's like, it's exactly the same as saying, well, I'm faithful to my wife and I'm cheating on her with three people at the same time. It's like, you can't have it both ways. Like, you got to your life where you are in your life. You know what a contradiction is, right? How long have you been listening to what I do?
[1:01:30] Long time.
[1:01:31] Long time years and years right so you know you can't have things and their opposites right, it's like saying well we're both polyamorous and monogamous simultaneously it's like nope no you're not, so if you're struggling in your career and in your parenting and in your marriage and in your life, and I say oh well what feedback did your parents give well I didn't talk to them but we're really close it's like nope then you're not you're not close if you're not confiding with people about things that are difficult you're not close, And if your parents don't even know that you're struggling, did they ask? Are you saying that they raised you and they have no clue that you're struggling? Severely struggling, right? You've got depression, you've got difficulties in your marriage, you've got no romance and physical contact with your wife. Like you're really, really struggling and half drowning in your life. And are you saying your parents had no clue there was a problem?
[1:02:35] I didn't disclose all that to them.
[1:02:40] That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. Do you know why?
[1:02:46] And when we did get together...
[1:02:48] Do you know why it doesn't matter that you didn't tell them?
[1:02:51] We wouldn't be important staff.
[1:02:53] Do you know why it doesn't matter that you didn't tell them?
[1:03:08] All right.
[1:03:08] All right. Imagine I go to a doctor, and I have a giant lump hanging off my neck, right? And I come home, and the doctor says, yeah, it looks fine to me. I come home, no treatment, no this, that, no the other, right? And my wife says, well, what did the doctor say about the lump? And I said, well, I didn't tell the doctor. What would my wife say?
[1:03:38] No, didn't I say the lump?
[1:03:41] It's their job to know. They saw the lump. Your parents raised you and had no clue you were half drowning in your life for years. For years.
[1:03:56] Well, don't forget, Stefan, I was still like over an hour away from them.
[1:04:02] Oh, you've got to be kidding me.
[1:04:03] Brother.
[1:04:03] I'm not doing this. I'm absolutely not doing a conversation at this bullshit level. I'm absolutely not. Honestly, I've got better things to do with my time. If you're saying, well, my parents who raised me for decades have no clue about anything that's going on in my heart because they're an hour away, I can't operate at that level of falsehood. I just can't. You're a parent. You know when your kids are up to that.
[1:04:33] But what if I'm not disclosing anything? It doesn't matter. I'm not saying them very often.
[1:04:36] It doesn't matter. They're supposed to know.
[1:04:37] They're not going to know.
[1:04:38] No, they're going to know. If they're close, if they care, they're going to know. Are you saying you don't have a clue when your kids are happy or unhappy? You as a father, you have no clue. When your kids were little, you had no clue if they were happy or unhappy.
[1:04:54] Kids are different to adults. Adults can hide things a lot better and often don't always. Oh, my God.
[1:05:02] Okay. I'll give it one more try. Honestly, I'll give it one more try because this is just going nowhere fast. All right. So, okay, let's... Oh, my gosh. Do you not think that adults are aware that their kids can hide things? So, let's say that you're 30 and you're hiding things, right? How old were you when you were going through these struggles with the business and the career and the tutoring business? How old were you?
[1:05:28] 40, 40s. Okay.
[1:05:29] You're in your 40s. You're in your 40s, right? which means your parents now have 40 years of experience knowing your thoughts and moods, and they raised you. Are you saying that you directly lied to your parents, and there was no way, and then they absolutely were completely certain that you were happy and doing well? So they'd say, how are things in your marriage, because you're close, or how are things in your career? Did you just lie to them and say everything was fine with a big smile on your face and no hint of any problem in what you were saying.
[1:06:13] After they've known you for 45 years, they can't tell whether anything's going wrong. They just have no clue. They're completely blind to it. You say, oh, well, but as adults, we can hide things. It's like, yes, and with parenting comes an additional 45, you've got 45 years of experience.
[1:06:33] Which means you know your kids better than anyone else will ever know them. And you're saying your parents had no clue. Because they were an hour away and you didn't tell them they have just no clue, i mean are we because if we're going to work at this level where you just you're lying to me i mean come on man maybe you're lying to yourself i bet this is all this is all not true it's just false now your parents may have chosen to avoid this knowledge they may have been uncomfortable touching on the topic but come on they're absolutely new unless they're complete narcissists and don't care about you at all, but you say you're close, right? So, if you're going to say, well, I hid things or they were an hour away, I mean, if we're going to operate at that level, you need to talk to someone else, because I don't operate at that level, because I know, I am a parent, I have parents, I've talked about these topics with thousands of people over the years, and you've listened to me do it. And this is why you're not submitting to any authority. and I think I've earned some credibility because you're calling me, right? So I'm telling you, your parents knew and you're saying, well, but they were an hour away and it's like, okay, but I'm not going to operate at that level of denial. I mean, if you want to do that level of denial, you need to talk to someone else because I don't work that way.
[1:07:50] Well, I'm just not sure really how that's going to make any difference because I was in my 40s and surely as an adult, you have to take responsibility for your own situation. and, you know...
[1:08:05] Sorry, is the story switching now? Because you haven't addressed anything I've said. I'm saying your parents...
[1:08:13] Right? So, are you acknowledging that I made that case, or are you just completely pretending I didn't say anything? Yeah, you know I'm trying to help you, right? Like, I'm not trying to hurt you here. You're calling me for advice. I'm trying to give you advice, and you're just leading me around this stupid maze, right? Now, if you don't want my help, listen, I mean, it's a beautiful night here in Canada. If you don't want my help, I certainly don't want to impose it. If you called me expecting something else, this is not going to your satisfaction. I completely sympathize with that. You know, no harm, no foul. It's not working out between us. If my approach and my directness and my standards, if it is not working for you, we can absolutely, you know, no harm, no foul, no problems, no resentment. We don't have to keep conversing. But I'm just not going to converse at the level of this denial. And then when I make a passionate case about how your parents did know, and then you start talking off about responsibility without acknowledging what I've said, right, this is why you have problems in your relationships, because you don't, I mean, you're not responding to what I'm saying directly. You're a lot of defensiveness, a lot of non-sequitous, a lot of avoidance, and a lot of kind of rude ignoring what I'm saying, right? Like I make a big case here and then you don't even address it, you just go off on something about responsibility.
[1:09:37] Well, I would often tell them to mind their own business anyway. Even if they did know, I would be like, well, I'm 40 years of age. Can you guys stop treating me like children, like a child? And so if they did know, I don't think I was willing to...
[1:10:09] Sorry, what do you mean if they did know? So they would say to you seem troubled and you'd say, fuck off I'm an adult, stop treating me like a child or something like that, right?
[1:10:17] Well, yeah, you know...
[1:10:19] Sorry, is that what happened? Because I'm not sure maybe, you say maybe this, but is that what happened?
[1:10:25] To be honest, Stefan and I can't remember every detail about all of the interventions. Okay, I'm not asking for.
[1:10:31] This is just more avoidance. I'm not asking for every detail. You said you told them to mind their own business when they asked you about your life. Did that happen or is that just something you just made up?
[1:10:43] Probably to some degree, yes.
[1:10:45] Okay, I don't know what probably to some degree means. I don't know what that means.
[1:10:48] Maybe not in those words.
[1:10:50] Okay, these are the words you used and I don't want to, again, Again, I can't operate at the level of, I don't remember every detail about what happened 15 years ago. Nobody does, right? That's just a waste of time to say that, right? And maybe not in those exact words. Well, it's never in those exact words, unless you're doing fucking Shakespeare, okay? So that's also a waste of time. I just want to know, did your parents know that you were struggling? And if they did know and tried to help, did you tell them to mind their own business or something like that?
[1:11:22] Yes.
[1:11:23] Okay. So they came to you with some concern, and you told them to mind their own business, right?
[1:11:30] Yes. Okay.
[1:11:31] So why did you tell them to mind their own business? Yes. And I'm not criticizing you for that. I'm genuinely curious, right? Like, why? Did you not think they were going to help? Did you think they were being manipulative? Did they think they put you down? Like, there has to be some reason why you would be kind of that aggressive with your parents if they're coming to you with some concerns about your life or whatever they were doing.
[1:11:57] No, I'm just normally one of those people that tends to try and solve their own problems. problems um yeah.
[1:12:04] But you're not.
[1:12:05] An idiot are you so when.
[1:12:07] When you're unable to solve your own problems i mean you're not stupid right.
[1:12:12] So you know you would then get help right, yeah but saying that my my mom and dad used to argue and fight and um with each other all the time so maybe they weren't going to be able to give me the the advice that i needed either Okay.
[1:12:30] So you grew up with parents who had a lot of conflict, and so you didn't want to take any marital advice from them?
[1:12:42] Yes. Okay.
[1:12:43] So then when they would say something like, you seem troubled or you seem upset, you would say, mind your own business, and you would kind of push them fairly harshly away, is that right?
[1:12:54] Yeah, or change the subject or whatever else, yes.
[1:12:57] Okay, so then you're not close. Now, why am I talking about you and your parents being close? Because you want to be closer to your daughters, right?
[1:13:16] Yes.
[1:13:17] But if you think you're close to your parents when you tell them to mind their own business when they try to give you some help or sympathy, if you don't know the facts of the relationship with your parents and how close or not close you are, how the hell are you going to get close to your own daughters?
[1:13:31] Because now you're in their shoes and you're the parent. If it's all confused with your parents, how can it ever be clear with your daughters? Not sure well it can't be, it can't be, so why did you tell me and I know this sounds accusatory and I don't mean it that way I'm genuinely curious why did you tell me you were close to your mother when you're not, because you tell her to mind her own business when she comes to you with concerns. That's not close, right?
[1:14:15] Well, you don't tell strangers to mind their own business to some degree. Sometimes you're more honest with people who are, and harsher with people that you're closer to. That would be my thoughts, maybe.
[1:14:31] Yeah, that doesn't answer my, do you remember what my question was? us?
[1:14:36] No, please repeat it.
[1:14:38] Why did you tell me that you were close to your mother when you're not? Because she doesn't have credibility with you. I'm sorry, go ahead.
[1:14:47] I thought I was close with my parents.
[1:14:51] So you thought you were close to your parents even though you tell them to mind their own business when they express some concern about how you're doing because you're unhappy?
[1:15:01] Yeah.
[1:15:03] Okay, do you understand that from the outside that's really confused? Because it seems like, it seems, I'll just tell you my experience, and I'm not saying this is right, I'm just telling you my experience. My experience is that you say something in the moment for the sake of a particular impulse, and it doesn't hang together in any way. Right? So you say, well, you know, I was, you know, concerned that I wasn't spending enough time with my daughters, right? Right.
[1:15:45] And maybe that had something to do with what happened with the marriage. That's kind of where we got there. Right. And then I say, OK, well, when did you first start noticing that you didn't that you missed your daughters or whatever? It's like, well, I didn't notice it, really, because if you didn't notice that you were missing your daughters, then you're not responsible for spending more time with them because you didn't notice it. So you said that in the moment because that sort of feels better or seems better. Better but then when i point out it's actually worse if you don't notice it you say well no i did notice it right so then you change to that way so when i say are you close to your parents you say yes i'm close to my parents because that sounds better right but then when i start digging into the practicalities then it turns out you're not so you say stuff in the moment that appeases something in in you makes maybe makes you feel better or look better or or gives you some excuse or some avoidance of, and it's all just these strings of compliance to the impulse of the moment rather than a narrative that actually hangs together and makes sense and doesn't contradict, and you don't, I don't think you, I don't know if you do or don't notice these contradictions, right? Because you didn't say to me, you know, Stef, I told you that I was close to my mother, but you know, now that you're asking me these questions, I wonder if that was true, Right? You haven't said that anytime you've contradicted yourself. You haven't said that. I know this sounds critical. I don't mean it that way. I genuinely don't.
[1:17:11] But do you notice that you contradict yourself, now that I'm pointing it out, and you sort of think back on this conversation? And again, it's not critical, I'm just curious. Do you notice that you contradict yourself looking back and it doesn't register that you've contradicted yourself? Because you said you were close to your mother, I asked some questions, and within 10 minutes it turns out that you're telling them to mind their own business when they express concern for you, which means that you're not close to them. And you don't sit there and say, ooh, you know what, that does kind of contradict what I said earlier. Do you know what I mean? Now, what's at the bottom of that is a huge amount of anger. And underneath the anger is humiliation. So you just have to win in the moment. And i can feel your anger when i'm sort of pointing this out and i can also but underneath the anger i can feel that there's humiliation and so i imagine that you experienced a lot of harshness as a child a lot of aggression and a lot of punishment probably verbal because your defenses are verbal and and if i'm wrong of course then i'm wrong and only you can tell me that for sure, but did you receive a lot of very harsh, verbal criticism as a child?
[1:18:33] Yeah, probably not from my mum, though. It was mainly my dad.
[1:18:38] And what did he say?
[1:18:43] Well, it's interesting because you even said it to me, but in a question form. So you'd say things like, are you stupid or something?
[1:18:55] No, I said you're not stupid.
[1:18:59] No, but he would say things like, are you stupid? Only idiots make the same mistake twice. I've always been had a lot of pressure to perform academically.
[1:19:19] I'm so sorry Sorry, and I do want to get to, but I'm a little baffled at your father here. So, sorry, hang on. How often would your parents fight?
[1:19:37] All the time.
[1:19:39] So a couple of times a week at least, right?
[1:19:42] Yeah, yeah.
[1:19:44] Okay.
[1:19:44] Yeah.
[1:19:45] So, and it was always, sorry, hang on. And for how, like, was this permanent over the course of your childhood? Does it continue even to now?
[1:19:54] He's dead now, but yes, even like when they'd rock up, sometimes they would be having some arguing about something petty as they were getting out of the car. Yes, it happened all the way through, as far as I remember.
[1:20:14] Okay, so thousands, probably tens of thousands of stupid, pointless arguments you saw between your parents, right?
[1:20:23] Yes.
[1:20:24] Well, first of all, I'm incredibly sorry. That's horrible behavior. It's terrible to put your children through that. And it's deeply disturbing.
[1:20:32] Absolutely.
[1:20:34] I'm sorry?
[1:20:35] It's worse than that.
[1:20:37] Why are you laughing about it's being worse than that?
[1:20:40] Well, I suppose it's a defensive, a defensive way.
[1:20:45] Okay, well, don't be defensive. But what's worse than that?
[1:20:52] I remember one particular incident where we were, and I probably would have been about the same age as, like we're talking about with the girls, about eight years of age. And I remember we're going out to one of my dad's friend's places for dinner, and he was in a pretty surly sort of a mood, and before we went in the house, we got out of the car, he was like, you actually had a call-in thing about manners and all that. You sort of mentioned about that, and that was something that I was supposed to always show. It was my manners. Children are to be seen and not heard, that sort of scenario.
[1:21:39] And I can't remember whether my brother and I were sort of mucking around in the car. We used to play like a punching game where we'd just punch each other. So Dad probably was, that might have triggered him off. And he picked me up by the throat to the point where my feet were off the ground and basically telling me that I don't want you to step one foot out of line today. I passed out and I remember waking up on the ground to him telling me to get up, get up on your feet now. Now, during, as a teenager, sometimes at the dinner table, Dad would get angry about certain things and punch the table, slam his hand down or his fist down on the table so hard that it would break plates.
[1:22:38] And then if we looked at him wrong or something like that, that sometimes a fork would be thrown at us, mainly me, not my brother as much. And then when I was closer to being 17, 18, I remember at one stage, he chased me out of the house. I was on the other side of the pool because I was faster than him and can get away from him and he couldn't chase me. So he picked up some bricks and he tried to throw the bricks at me, but obviously bricks don't go very fast, so I was able to dodge them pretty easily. And I remember him just saying, well, you've got to come inside sometime. So he was actually murderous.
[1:23:38] Like you were under death threat, my friend.
[1:23:42] Yeah, yeah, probably.
[1:23:43] No, no, no, no, no, no, not probably. Did he choke you out?
[1:23:51] Well, that particular time, yes. When I was real young.
[1:23:56] And you were eight?
[1:23:59] Yeah. Okay.
[1:24:01] No, no, hang on, hang on, slow down, slow your roll. You need to get this. This choking out an eight-year-old is murderous because he could have crushed your windpipe broken your high yard your throat could have swollen up to the point where you couldn't breathe that is a murderous action I'm not a lawyer obviously but in a just court of law if you do that to an adult it's attempted murder, throwing bricks at another human being is concussion, subdual hematomas brain bleeds it is brain expansion right you know how they have to sometimes cut open the skull because the brain is expanding so much from an injury, I mean people die from that you take a brick to the head you can easily die or lose an eye. Am I wrong?
[1:25:13] No, you're not wrong.
[1:25:14] So this was a murderous man.
[1:25:24] No, he could get quite violent, quite intimidating, true.
[1:25:30] Did I say intimidating?
[1:25:34] No, but he was.
[1:25:35] Am I wrong?
[1:25:37] No.
[1:25:38] If you had choked out one of your daughters to the point where she passed out from lack of oxygen.
[1:25:44] I wouldn't even lay a hand on him. Of course you wouldn't.
[1:25:47] So you need to understand how monstrous and murderous this is.
[1:25:53] No, I understand.
[1:25:54] You were under death threat. Now, making things up in the moment to avoid confrontation or contradiction makes perfect sense. because you were under a death threat, as a child and as a young man. I mean, and after he choked you out, did he ever show remorse?
[1:26:16] No.
[1:26:17] Did he ever say, holy shit, I'm a total asshole. I've got to get right to anger management. I've got a serious problem.
[1:26:25] No.
[1:26:26] Right. What did your mother do? when your father was this violent, I know she wasn't there at the club, She was there when he was pounding his fists into the table. I'm sure she was aware that he was throwing bricks at you.
[1:26:41] Oh, she would protest, of course, that, of course, he would get very I never saw him lay a hand on my mother, but there was very much , the talk was not very positive.
[1:27:00] Sorry, the talk was not very positive? I don't know what that means.
[1:27:04] But, yeah, basically, like, I'm trying to think back, but just all I can remember is just arguments. So she would say things like, oh, sorry, don't do this. What are you doing? And then there would be a bit of a screaming match, and that's when my brother would just slink off to his bedroom, shut the door.
[1:27:29] Okay so did she ever did she ever say you have to get to anger management or I've got to get these kids to safety like you could kill one of these kids okay, so she failed to protect you, yeah not only did she fail to protect you, she married she dated got engaged to got married to and gave two children to this man and then kept those children under his control and coercive violence for decades, right?
[1:28:07] Yes, and as a teenage, I even remember saying to her, you know, you probably should leave.
[1:28:18] Okay, and has your mother ever apologized for the violence you and your brother were subjected to?
[1:28:27] She has now, yes.
[1:28:30] And what was that all about? How did that come about?
[1:28:36] Because I told her that I never got a chance to confront Dad about some of the situations, and I spoke to her about it. How long ago did he die? Um, that was actually in 2017 as well. So that's about five or six months after the marriage, um, when, when, uh, the wife walked out was when he died. Mm-hmm.
[1:29:15] And when did you talk to your mother about the violence you and your brother experienced?
[1:29:23] I probably can't tell you the year, but it was after Dad had died. And just recently as well, because I told her that I was going to be speaking to you. And I said that he's probably going to bring up childhood and that and I just reiterated a few things that I thought, wasn't right.
[1:29:57] Yeah, were bad and what was her response?
[1:30:01] She just said, I'm sorry.
[1:30:05] Okay, so she said I'm sorry twice. What about... Then.
[1:30:09] She would tell me about her childhood and how her mum was the main enforcer and that her dad was more of a shadow and that um.
[1:30:23] Sorry your dad was more of a shadow okay so so she grew up with parental violence right yes and so she knew exactly she knew exactly how bad it was yes now is she bringing Bringing this up as some kind of excuse? Or reason?
[1:30:44] Probably.
[1:30:46] So she's manipulative. Because it's funny, like you say, there was all this violence. Well, I'm sorry, but I had it rough too. I had a rough time. Well, so what? That means you're all the more responsible for not repeating the violence.
[1:31:04] Right?
[1:31:05] So if your mother grew up with parental violence, and she knows that that's partly why she ended up, or she figures that's the causality, right? Then she's absolutely responsible for it not happening to her own children. Completely and totally. It's not an excuse, it's quite the opposite. And it's a way of distracting you from your own feelings so you have sympathy for her so you don't get too mad at her. It's manipulation 101. I'm mad at you. Well, I've had it really tough. Okay, well, sorry, mom. Then you're no longer mad at her, right? Because, oh, she's diffusing your anger.
[1:31:42] With this story. Now, was she mistreated as a child? Yes, I'm sure she was. But that's not an excuse. excuse in fact that's like somebody saying well i became a torturer because i know exactly how bad torture feels it's like well if you know how bad torture feels why would you do it to someone else if you know how bad it is to grow up with parental rage why would you choose a guy who does that to your kids and what else has she done other than say i'm sorry and cry foul about her own childhood, what else has she done?
[1:32:16] Has she gone to therapy? Has she made any financial offers or restitution? Does she bring it up repeatedly to make sure that you're healing and understanding things? What else has she done other than say sorry twice?
[1:32:40] Well, I do feel like she's been trying to make up for some of the situation by being on the phone, willing to listen to my situation.
[1:32:54] No, but you've only brought it up twice, haven't you? I mean, in terms of the childhood stuff.
[1:32:58] Yeah.
[1:33:00] Okay, so what has she done now that she knows that she was responsible for the greatest harm you've ever received, which is at the hands of your father, right? The greatest time in your life that you received was at the hands of the man she chose to marry and failed to protect you from, right? And this went on for 15, 20 years, right?
[1:33:19] Yeah.
[1:33:20] Do you think two little sorries balance that shit out?
[1:33:27] No, Stefan, but it's probably more than some parents would actually do. Some parents wouldn't even acknowledge or hit it off.
[1:33:36] I'm sorry, am I talking to some parents here, or am I talking about you and your mom? Don't abstract me, I'm talking about your feelings.
[1:33:43] I'm not sure what I would expect her to do, apart from acknowledge the fact that it was not right.
[1:33:55] Sorry, you don't know how to make restitution to people you've wronged?
[1:34:04] Maybe not.
[1:34:06] See, here's the thing, brother. If you make up excuses for your mother, you're making up excuses for yourself as a parent. You can minimize and say, well, she's doing the best she could, and I can't expect anything better. Then you're going to make those same excuses up for yourself. You understand, excuses, we think they impact other people. They impact us most of all. Every excuse we make for others is a carte blanche for ourselves. To get out of jail, free card for ourself.
[1:34:37] Well, excuses are lies.
[1:34:41] Well, no. I mean, some excuses are real. But your mother is not taking responsibility. She's appeasing you and then making it about her. And it's funny, the reason I started down this road was your father said, remember he said, only an idiot makes the same mistake twice?
[1:35:04] Yeah.
[1:35:04] Then your father was a complete fucking moron. Because he argued with his wife, your mother, thousands and thousands and thousands of times, and it never got resolved. They never fixed it, they never solved it. So, only an idiot makes the same mistake twice. Hey, I think I'll go have another useless argument with my wife. By his own standard he's beyond brain dead, he made that same mistake probably a dozen times a day half a dozen times a day, twenty times a week fight fight fight squabble squabble squabble bicker bicker bicker nobody wins nothing gets resolved everything's shitty hey I'll do it again but only a fool makes the same mistake twice yep try, Okay. Are you close to your mother?
[1:36:03] It would seem not.
[1:36:04] Are you close to your mother?
[1:36:12] It's hard, Stef. I don't know why I'm resisting, and I can't say no, because I...
[1:36:21] You understand you can't be closer to your daughters than you are honest about your mother. Because if you've got a bullshit pseudo relationship with your mother, you can't get close to your daughters because that's your standard. That's what you accept. That's what you do. I'm trying to get everything about this is trying to, you called me to get closer to your daughters, didn't you? So it's all I'm doing. It's all I'm doing. It's all I'm focusing on. Did your mother warn you about your wife-to-be when you were dating her, when you got engaged to her, when you got married? Did she say, I don't think this is the right woman for you? You know, I'm sorry to say so, but I can tell you as a woman, right, this is what I've noticed. This is what I'm concerned about. I married wrong. She'd say, I married wrong. I know what this looks like, and you've got to not do it.
[1:37:16] Not not not until after, things had already happened and then i find out things like i can't wait.
[1:37:24] Sorry i don't know what does it mean things have already happened please stop being vague i mean i'm mortal and i don't have forever on this planet so what's.
[1:37:31] The um separation occurred.
[1:37:37] Oh so after the marriage collapsed she's like i knew it wasn't going to work i never liked that girl not.
[1:37:43] Exactly like that but um then.
[1:37:45] Telling me about these don't not exactly in those words come on man work with well not.
[1:37:50] Exactly nice words but saying things like that um that she thought um another girl that i was going out with before her was a nice girl um.
[1:38:00] Okay so your mother did not stop you from walking into a disastrous marriage marriage.
[1:38:10] No.
[1:38:11] Even though she knew this was not the right girl for you.
[1:38:20] Probably.
[1:38:21] What do you mean by probably? I'm not sure what is doubtful here.
[1:38:24] Well, no one said anything, not including...
[1:38:27] I'm talking about your mother! Right? right? Your mother told you after your marriage disintegrated, that she thought another girl was better for you and this wasn't the right girl for you. Do I have that wrong?
[1:39:00] I'm not sure if I know exactly those words, but...
[1:39:02] Okay, please, if you say it, please, brother, for the sake of my fucking sanity, can you stop saying not exactly in those words? I know it's not exactly in those words.
[1:39:13] Okay?
[1:39:14] That's just a waste, that's a time wasting.
[1:39:16] Yes, that was the implied message, yes.
[1:39:19] Okay, so your mother let you sashay into a disastrous marriage with a dangerous woman and said nothing. So, again, she failed to protect you from violence. Again. Has she ever apologized for that?
[1:39:40] No.
[1:39:41] Right. Are you close to your mother? Does your mother care about you to the point where she's willing to do something uncomfortable to keep you from harm? No.
[1:39:57] I thought so, but it doesn't seem that way.
[1:40:01] Do you know what it is or what it feels like to be truly loved? Right. If you don't know what it is like to be truly loved, how are you going to be able to truly love your daughters? It's not an accident that you withdrew from your daughter about the same time when she was the same age as you were when your father choked you out.
[1:40:57] Because there's a lot of trauma there, right? That was a murderous moment with your father that was terrifying. I mean, honestly, you could have died. Or, even worse, in some ways, you could have woken up with permanent brain damage. And the trauma continues because your mother knew about your father's murderousness and did not act to protect you. She knew about the danger of your wife and did not act to protect you and you've had to push through life with no particular support that I can see and for that you have my great and deep sympathy, that's a very tough ride to go with a lot of danger, and to navigate and push all of that, endless rocks uphill, to do all of that without support and without love is very, very sad.
[1:42:06] It's heartbreaking. breaking.
[1:42:19] And it is my deep hope that over the course of this conversation, that you can shake off the atrophy of feeling like this is all you deserve. This is all you're worth, this is what you have to live with. It's not what you have to live with, and it's not all your worth. But the sad thing about life is, and I wish it wasn't this way, I really do, but the sad thing about life is people will just judge you by how you judge yourself. And if you say, well, I got to put up with this pretty crappy mom, I had to put up with this really violent dad and this endless conflict, and I guess we're close, and I love her, and blah, blah, blah, we love each other like people will just get this heaviness and this sadness, and they will just say well look I mean if this is all he thinks he's worth.
[1:43:15] Who am I to fight with him now I'll fight with you about it I will happily I mean a little frustrating at times but that's more me than you so I'll fight with you about it, but and I'll sort of I'll say what I mean by this, So if you know someone who you think could make more money than they're making, somebody's being paid, I don't know, 50 thou a year and you think they could get 100 thou a year, do you do a lot of research and figure things out and go in and negotiate hard on their behalf to get them more money? Yeah no but you don't you haven't actually done that have you.
[1:44:04] I don't quite know what you mean stefan.
[1:44:06] Well let's say let's say you have an acquaintance who, is a good accountant but he he charges 50 bucks an hour but he should be charging 200 an hour, right do you go and negotiate for him with regards to his clients and make sure he doubles or triples his income or whatever it is right like you might say to him in passing oh i think you're undercharging mate right but but you wouldn't go in and fight for him and and raise his income right.
[1:44:35] No i could i could even come up with an exact situation with that with my sister-in-law who was tutoring and only charging 30 an hour and i was like well that's ridiculous you should be, worth more than that. It should be charging at least double that price. So that's probably about the extent that I have. Right.
[1:45:02] But you wouldn't sit there and say, listen, I'm going to negotiate with your clients and I'm going to make sure your income gets doubled and I'm going to double check on this and I'm going to change your website. And if you have any client who objects, I'm going to talk to them for 20 minutes and explain like you don't. And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't. I'm just saying you don't. Right.
[1:45:20] No.
[1:45:20] So you might make a comment that she should charge more. Did she end up charging more?
[1:45:25] Yes, she did.
[1:45:26] Okay, good. But if she didn't, you'd be like, okay, well, I had my piece and it's up to her, right? So the reason I'm saying all of this is that people won't fight to increase your sense of your own value.
[1:45:44] I will, but I'm a bit of a unique case this way, right? In the same way that you won't sit there and elbow your sister-in-law aside and say, I'm going to negotiate for your clients and I'm going to spend the next three weeks making sure your rates are doubled and I'm going to check with your accountant and I'm going to, you know, you'll make a comment in passing and either she listens or she doesn't. But that's life. And this is your sister-in-law. This is family. Right? So if you have this view of yourself, which I understand, you know, you had this murderous father, constantly bickering, stupid, retarded, fighting, bickering parents and all of that. So I understand this. But if this is all you feel that you're worth, nobody's going to work hard to talk you out of it. It's a really grim and deep fact about life. I mean, it'd be nice if we had a world where people did do more of this, but it is not the world we live in. Right? So, if you look at what's going on with your mother and you say, yeah, we're close. That's a good relationship, man. It's a good relationship. Then you're valuing yourself very poorly. Now, people will get that from you. They'll get that. They'll understand at a very deep and visceral level how little you value yourself with regards to, say, your mother.
[1:47:04] Now i'll fight with you about that and i will try to really work to to get you to up your value or at least get you to stop eating shit sandwiches and calling them haute cuisine right, but most people in the world won't almost everyone in the world senses that you value Value yourself very lowly, very poorly, and just shrug and move on. And it's up to you to raise your standards. It's up to you to raise your value.
[1:47:42] And you will almost get nothing more in life than the least you're willing to settle for. Right? But if you're willing, if there's a great tutor who only charges 20 bucks an hour, that tutor will get paid 20 bucks an hour. If Brad Pitt, who can get 10 million dollars a movie, wants to work on a movie for 50 bucks, he will get paid 50 bucks. So you need to look at your relationships, all of them. And you need to say, where's my lowest standard? Maybe it's your mother. Maybe it's someone else. But there's a low standard. Where you just...
[1:48:32] Well, I don't...
[1:48:33] Go ahead.
[1:48:34] I don't really have many relationships left, to be honest.
[1:48:39] Well, and I would say it's the low standards that have caused that. It only takes one hole in the seawall for the town to get flooded like all these high seawalls yes but if you've got one big collapsed part or even a small collapsed part that's where all the water gets in, so you've got to look at your relationships and say, what's my least quality relationship because that's going to undermine all the others.
[1:49:18] Because your kids, I'm telling you this, brother, your daughters know everything about your relationship to your mother. Everything. Even if they've only seen you together five times, they've heard you on the phone, they've heard the tone of voice, they've heard you talk about her, they know something about your history. so, if you're saying to your daughters I bring a great deal of value but you have a relationship in your life which has no value or negative value they won't believe you because you're trying to offer something to your daughters, now if there are two identical cars on the lot right some used car place right, And you just hear someone buy the car, the first car, for $2,000, right? And then the salesman tries to sell you the next car for $20,000. What are you going to say?
[1:50:24] Get stuff. The other one's only worth $2,000, so that's all.
[1:50:28] Yeah, it's the same car. They're twins. Why does this guy get $2,000? You charge me $20,000? you're going to be kidding, right? So you see, if he's willing to sell the car for $2,000 he can't ever charge more, to anybody who knows that. Now, your daughters have looked at all of your relationships, all of them, and they know what the lowest quality relationship you have is.
[1:51:03] And they're going to judge you by that. The same way you judge the guy who sold the car for two grand. He can't charge 20 grand. You just saw him sell it for two. Your daughters probably have a little bit of a wound, or maybe it's not such a little bit of a wound, wherein you went from attentive dad to distant dad, without explanation, without warning, without transition. And you didn't seem to notice them at all. Sorry, you didn't seem to miss them at all. From their perspective, right? From their perspective, Dad loved spending time with us, and then he loved spending time with other kids. Because he kept talking about how fulfilling and wonderful his work was. And he didn't miss us at all. Now, if you have a father who's really involved, and then stops spending much time with you, and never explains why, you feel disposable. You feel unimportant. In the same way, when you are out roaming around, and we all know kids who roam around all the time are usually escaping bad things at home, though not always, but often. You felt unimportant to your parents. Your children, not to the same degree, of course, right? Your daughters felt unimportant to you.
[1:52:31] Because you didn't say to them, Dad, I have to do this. I'm so sorry. I'm going to work my very hardest to minimize this, right? I'm going to work so hard to make sure that I hire tutors to take on some of these, and I'll take a cut from them so I can spend more time with you, because I miss you guys so much. Every day, I'm like, I don't want to be tutoring these kids. I want to spend time with my kids. I don't want to be tutoring these kids. I want to spend time with my kids.
[1:53:04] But from the age of six and eight through the end of the marriage and after, you went to spend time with other kids without appearing to miss them at all. That's hard for kids because they feel unimportant. They feel replaceable. They feel like you're having more fun and you're preferring to spend time with the tutor kids rather than your own children. And, you know, we can say, well, there's reasons and there's... I don't care because the whole point is to try and get somebody else's perspective without explanations and defenses. Because you and your wife did not explain what was going on to your kids. All they knew, all they felt was, Dad's gone, and he doesn't even seem to miss us. And he seems perfectly happy not spending time with us, because he's talking about how great the time is with his kids. Now, I'm not saying that's the only thing. I'm not even saying that's the main thing, but that's the one thing we have been talking about.
[1:54:17] Now, this is part of the relentless honesty part. But if you didn't miss your kids in particular, it was because you hadn't processed the lack of bond with your parents. The lack of connection, the lack of love with your parents.
[1:54:35] Because you were disposable to your parents, your kids are disposable to you. That has a big effect on the bond. Where there's no bond, there's a lot of useless conflict. Like your parents weren't bonded they didn't trust each other they didn't love each other so they fought a lot and this is why i interrupted you at the very beginning of this conversation when you were telling me all about the fights about veganism and music and so on with your daughter right all of that is nonsense all of that is because the bond is not there in the way it should be in my humble opinion i'm not saying there's no bond i'm not saying it can't be fixed I'm not saying it can't grow. I'm just saying that that level of conflict about unimportant things, it doesn't matter what vegetables your daughter eats. It doesn't matter how fussy she is. It doesn't matter whether she's ill-tempered. It matters that you're able to talk about these things and not have useless conflicts about useless things in the same way that your parents did.
[1:55:51] But right now your mother's coldness and selfishness in my opinion your mother's coldness and selfishness is between you and your daughters what were the red that's the last question I wanted to ask what were the red flags about your wife before you married her.
[1:56:14] Well, one of the very first things she said to me, maybe on our third date, I suppose way you'd call it, is that, I should say, I want to have children and we're not going any further if you don't want any children. And all I said to that was like, well, I just want to get to know you first. First, I'd only seen her a couple of times. I didn't even know it was going to necessarily be serious. Some of the other red flags.
[1:57:03] Sorry, why is that a red flag? If she wants to have kids, then she would want to make sure that you at least were open to the idea of having children. Because if you said, I've had a vasectomy in order to protect the life of the world from climate change, I've decided not to have any children. Well, if she really wants to have children, then you would not be compatible, right?
[1:57:23] True.
[1:57:25] So I'm not sure I quite see that as a red flag.
[1:57:27] Well, I just felt a little bit the same. We'd met at a dinner, and it was just a talk. I didn't even know anything serious was going to be happening at all. And then I saw her at an after work.
[1:57:48] No, but she said that because she was so attracted to you. Right? So she knew she could fall for you. And so she said, I'm not going further because I find you very attractive. I mean, this is woman mind, right? Which is different from male mind is like, well, I want to get to know you, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, no, no, no, I already know that I really like you. And I'm really going to fall for you. So I'm not going to put myself through hell of really falling for a guy who doesn't want to have kids. So it's a compliment to you, right? So she says, listen, I mean, I want to have kids. So if you don't want to have kids, tell me now because I don't want to move forward. Because moving forward means she sees great potential in the relationship, right? I'm not saying she didn't have red flags, but that's not one of them.
[1:58:28] Okay. I don't know. If I thought there were red flags, I probably wouldn't have married her. Okay, what was her childhood like?
[1:58:44] And we don't have to get into great detail because she's not in the convo, but roughly, was it good, bad, indifferent?
[1:58:54] It sounded like it was all right. She was a bit of a tomboy and she would tell me a little bit about how her dad used to not speak very nicely to her mum and that. And that but then her mum sorted a few things out and um and um and then it became uh a lot more, compliant um.
[1:59:29] Sorry her mother became more compliant and that helped no the.
[1:59:32] Husband the husband.
[1:59:34] Oh sorry yeah you said her you know sorry it was your mother's husband your mother's father who was the shadow but so the father became more compliant and that helped the marriage.
[1:59:45] Yes, and so, yeah, that's the sort of, she went to a fairly good school, did quite well. So, yeah, that's as much as I sort of know of her childhood, really. And did you meet her family.
[2:00:08] And what did you think of her family?
[2:00:11] Um, they're all, all, all nice on the surface. Yeah. They're all nice people on the surface. She's got two sisters. Um, she's the middle child. Um, the dad was, we never really got to talk very into any real depth. Um, but he was always very, you know, wouldn't maintain eye contact. Um.
[2:00:36] Sorry, he wouldn't maintain eye contact.
[2:00:37] He wouldn't. Wouldn't maintain eye contact. And I just remember the mother-in-law was very much always telling him, oh, could you just go and do this? Could you now do this, please? Can you do this? Okay.
[2:00:54] But there was nothing like what happened with you?
[2:00:58] No.
[2:00:59] Right. So if she came from a healthy, happy household or relatively, then did she know about the horrendous abuse that you suffered? Because you hid that from her?
[2:01:20] I wouldn't say hid, but I did talk to her.
[2:01:22] No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. No, no, you don't get that. Sorry, I can't give you that one. Is it information that's important for her to know before she marries into your family?
[2:01:35] But I think I thought it was important.
[2:01:37] No no no I don't care about what you thought at the time morally if she is going to, leave her children with your parents is it important for her to know how violent your father is yes is it important for her to know the violence that you suffered at the hands of your father as a child, yes okay so when you said I didn't tell her there is an obligation to tell her right, okay I mean you understand that right.
[2:02:20] I do now yeah well.
[2:02:23] Why wouldn't you then what was your reasoning back then.
[2:02:41] To be honest i i don't don't know i don't even i don't know.
[2:02:47] So that was probably the demise of your marriage honestly and i'm not saying she's not a fault right of course right but do you understand like you and i were having a lot of conflict until i got through to what happened to you as a child, right? Because your behavior is a little incomprehensible and frustrating and a little annoying. I'm not saying you, I'm just saying the behavior or its impact on me, perhaps on others. But once I got through to what happened to you as a child, would you say that the conflict between us diminished considerably?
[2:03:29] I didn't think we were having a conflict, but yes.
[2:03:32] I told you I wasn't going to continue the conversation. Do you remember that? What do you think? I told you this was really annoying. I wasn't going to operate at this level of denial. I called what you were saying bullshit. What do you mean? We didn't have a conflict?
[2:03:47] I still consider that just a discussion.
[2:03:49] All right. Okay. So you didn't notice that I was frustrated?
[2:03:55] I noticed that you're getting frustrated. Okay.
[2:03:59] And were you getting frustrated?
[2:04:03] I didn't feel like I was getting frustrated. No. Okay.
[2:04:11] So, your wife was not in possession of a scent. Did she ever find out about what happened to you as a child?
[2:04:20] I don't think so, no.
[2:04:21] What do you mean you don't think so? Did you tell her?
[2:04:27] No.
[2:04:28] Sorry, what's that background noise?
[2:04:30] That's my phone going. Can I just go and turn it off, please, Stef? Sure.
[2:04:36] So these indirect answers are a little offensive. And I'm not saying you're being offensive. I'm just saying, so I know why you give indirect answers. because your dad was on the prowl for aggression. Right? So you got used to dissembling. You got used to giving vague, inconclusive, can't-be-quite-caught-out answers. Is that fair to say?
[2:05:04] Fair to say.
[2:05:05] Right. So this habit that you developed, and I completely appreciate the habit, and it was a great thing that you did, but this habit, Habit, if it continues to people in your life, you're treating them as violent abusers when they're not. Because you're using the same habits you developed to survive a violent father and an enabling mother. So you are developing the habits, sorry, you are applying the habits you learned in the face of dangerous abuse to people who are nice. which means you're treating people as if they're abusers, when they're not.
[2:05:48] Well, I can probably confirm that I generally don't trust anyone. That's right.
[2:05:56] Right, but that's unfair because that's treating everyone as if they're your father and mother. But that's not fair because we're not. I mean if some guy cracked you in the face out of nowhere and he was some guy from belgium and he said well i punched you because the last you know i i knew an australian 10 years ago who's a real jerk what would you say well.
[2:06:28] I'm not that person and you can't judge everybody by the.
[2:06:31] Yeah Yeah, what the hell are you punching me for? I didn't, I mean, so why would you, why would you treat me? See, this is the mechanics, right? So I say, did your wife ever.
[2:06:43] So I don't get hurt anymore.
[2:06:45] Sorry?
[2:06:45] So I don't get hurt. No, but you do get.
[2:06:49] No, you do get hurt. You're hurt now.
[2:06:51] I'm doing it. Right?
[2:06:52] Your marriage is over. You've got no relationship with your kids. You are hurt. So it doesn't, it doesn't help, right? It doesn't, it doesn't work. It helped when you were a kid, but it doesn't help now. It harms now. So the mechanics are, I say, did your wife ever find out about what happened to you as a child? And you say, I don't think so, or it was some vague answer, right?
[2:07:21] Yeah.
[2:07:22] Now that's annoying because I know why you're doing that.
[2:07:28] Because in your mind or in your amygdala, your fight or flight mechanism, it's your father shaking you saying well did you tell the truth, and you're like I think so you can't say because you don't know where the trap is you don't know, you don't like if you say any absolute you're going to be punished but if you're vague maybe it will calm him down or maybe you'll escape the worst of the punishment does that make sense, yes right so I say did your wife ever find out about what happened to you as a kid Now, if you say, yes, I told her, well, you didn't tell her, right?
[2:08:11] No. Okay.
[2:08:14] So, you don't want to lie, because then you're going to get punished for lying, if I find out that somehow, right, I find out that it was a lie, right? So, you don't want to say a lie, but you also don't want to tell the truth, because if you say, oh, no, I kept that from her completely, I never told her about the abuse I suffered as a child, right? Then I would say, well, if you're hiding these essential things from your wife, your behavior is incomprehensible, and she's going to get really frustrated and upset and angry.
[2:08:49] You know, if you don't know someone has Tourette's, and they shout out the most offensive things or call you the most horrible names, you're going to get pretty upset. But if you find out they have Tourette's, you might be a little amused, you might be sympathetic, but you wouldn't be quite as enraged and upset, right? Because you know the cause.
[2:09:09] So the vagueness is coming out of a fear of in what was in some cases life-threatening violence and listen i'm nothing but sympathy for the life-threatening violence but if you go through the rest of your life treating everyone like they're about to turn into your dad, your life is not going to get better because that's letting your dad win then your dad turns into, you know, like that scene in The Matrix where all of these agent smiths are everywhere. Everyone is your dad in disguise, right? Well, then you're going to be treating everyone as if they're about to choke you out. Is that going to let you get close to anyone? So that's the price. And there's only one parent left who could be held accountable for that. Because that's what was done to you. And your mother made it happen and let it happen and enabled it to happen. And two little apologies because you brought it up, followed by, but my childhood was bad too. That's not even close to enough. Now, then people say, well, what is enough? And it's like, I don't know, but it ain't that.
[2:10:38] So where do we where do i go from here.
[2:10:41] Boy you probably heard everyone else in the call-in show ask exactly the same question at exactly the same time and said i can't believe that Stef has to go through this every single call-in show because you know that's right on cue right Right. Have I given you some fairly big insights about your life?
[2:11:02] Yeah.
[2:11:03] Now, what does everyone say who doesn't want to process the insights emotionally? What do they say? Well, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? Give me a plan. Give me a blueprint. Give me a GPS. Give me a destination. Give me some action. Right? Everyone does the same thing, right?
[2:11:17] Not necessarily say it to you, Stef, I suppose. I'm just saying it out loud as a thought. Where do I go from here?
[2:11:28] You don't go. You feel. You feel. You feel. You haven't held your parents morally responsible, which means everyone else has to take the blame, which means everyone else can be your parents and you have to go through life afraid of being attacked all the time.
[2:11:54] Could I fall in love with a good woman if I never held my mother morally accountable and said, well, my mother's just female nature. It's just the way women are. As opposed to, no, my mother was a specific individual who made specific choices, that I'm not blaming any other woman for. It was all her, 100%. It doesn't spill over to any other woman. My father was a distant guy who couldn't connect with me and chose not to. Who chose to focus on his own upsets rather than the wrongs he did, who was full of self-pity, in my opinion. And had legitimate grievances, I'm sure, about his own childhood, although I never really found out much about that. But maybe does that sorry hang on but does that does that spill onto any other person does that does my fathers and mother do their bad choices, splash damage every other human being on the planet.
[2:13:03] Yeah they do.
[2:13:04] Well of course not, no they made their choices I.
[2:13:11] But yes I'm treating it like it is yeah Well.
[2:13:16] So what we do is, in order to forgive our parents, we blame human nature. We blame circumstances. We blame bad luck. We blame bad childhoods. Whatever, right? Anything but hold them accountable. But the only way we can trust the world is to hold those who did us wrong completely accountable. Because if it's human nature, it can't be escaped. If it's a bad childhood, well, lots of people have bad childhoods and they could act out too. Hey, I had a bad childhood. I don't give myself that excuse because my parents' choices were 100% their own.
[2:14:01] It was not human nature. It was not the war. It was not radiation. It was not gravity. It was not a curse. It was not Satan. It was not anything but the choices they made. 100% theirs. No splash damage. No shadow. Across the heart of all humanity, it was just them. And that way, the wrongs they did are contained within their own skin, or in your father's case, his own godforsaken coffin. And then you can go and greet the world without their icy fists around your heart. Because it was just them. They were individuals. They made bad choices. See, here's the thing. We use these terms like my mother, my father. You could use their names.
[2:14:52] Because my mother did not behave badly because of the category mother or because of the category female or the category of single mother or the category of divorced woman or the category of war survivor. None of those things. because the moment I make any excuses for my mother based upon a category, that category spreads all the way across the world and infects everybody else and now I've got to be jumpy about everyone. Nope. My mother made her choices. They were bad choices. They were evil choices. They were wrong choices. She continues to this day to make those bad wrong choices.
[2:15:36] Not because of any category. Not because of original sin, or estrogen, or female nature, or menopause, or single motherhood, or stress, or Germany, or my father. No, these were her choices. 100%. Now, bad people are always trying to get everyone else and everything else, every category in person, to take the blame for their choices. You hold your mother accountable. Oh, but my childhood, she says, right? Okay. But no. But no, because your childhood doesn't dictate your adulthood.
[2:16:16] I'm proof of that. Many other people are proof of that. So that's not the case. So bad people won't take responsibility. They'll always try to blame categories and others and circumstances and environment and human nature and sin and the government and whatever, right? And through that they inflict rampant paranoia on the part of their children, rather than saying I did this, I made these choices and you know I talked to someone who'd harmed a child once it was not on the show, and he said every morning every morning I woke up it was the first thing on my mind and I vowed to do better I promised myself I was going to do better, and I just didn't. Ah, now that's honest.
[2:17:13] Your parents made the choices they made for no external cause or reason.
[2:17:22] Your mother and your father are not emblematic of mothers and fathers, of men in the Air Force, of Australians, of widows, of people with bad childhoods. They just made those choices. Now, we can't say why, Why? Because it's free will. They chose what they chose. They were bad choices and they won't take responsibility. And that's the worst choice of all is to not take responsibility because then you completely surrender your free will and all you end up with is manipulation and the infliction of paranoia on the part of other people. It's infectious people who don't take responsibility will fuck up your entire world view they really will it's one of the most infectious and insidious mindsets around people who don't take responsibility, take their free will transform it into paranoia and pound it into your skull like a railway spike, I I would rather spend time with openly immoral people who own it and take responsibility for it than people who don't take responsibility.
[2:18:43] In the same way, I'd rather have a fistfight than be poisoned. Your mother does not take responsibility. Your father did not take responsibility. And you have to take responsibility for taking what your parents did to you decades ago and projecting it to some degree on the rest of the world and I understand that, and it's a perfect survival strategy when you're young and it's not like we're designed to have all of this change in our lives but change we have and we have to adapt to it as best we can and we're not too bad at that kind of stuff, but I think it's important to have an honest conversation with your mother, if she and she's already said she knew that it was the wrong woman, and she did not lift a finger to try and help you or stop you that is deeply painful and deeply wounding, and a mother who loved you would never let that happen Of course, if a mother loved you, you wouldn't be tempted by... The woman who became your wife anyway.
[2:20:00] But a woman who turns away from all sexuality and physical touch usually has had something very bad happen to her in her childhood. Because if she had a great childhood and you had a bad childhood, why was she with you? If she had a great childhood and you had a bad childhood, why wouldn't she notice and ask? Sorry, go ahead.
[2:20:24] I was going to say, I didn't. I suspected something potentially happened when she was young as well because she was a virgin when she met me and the physical side was always quite light on.
[2:20:49] Sorry, the physical side was always quite light on?
[2:20:55] Yeah, like it wasn't a very physical relationship and not the way I would have liked it. And I sort of suspected that maybe she wasn't telling me the full truth as well.
[2:21:11] Oh, I mean, almost certainly. I mean, a woman who abandons and then uses the court system against the father of her children, like this is pretty messed up, right? And you have my sympathy for that. And if you both were coming into the marriage hiding essential truths about yourself as children, it had no chance of survival. That's the price we pay for lying to people we claim to love.
[2:21:38] And you were lying, and if stuff happened to her that was bad, and I'm sure that it did, and she was lying, lying than you both lying to each other about essential aspects of your life, was undermining the marriage and truly harming your children.
[2:21:54] Yeah, yeah, I can say that.
[2:21:57] You can't have a better relationship with your children than you have with the truth.
[2:22:04] You can't have a better relationship with yourself or anyone than you have with the truth. That's why the truth is so powerful. That's why we grit our teeth and embrace it, even though it feels like a fucking fiery cactus on a regular basis. We do it because we want to be in love. And we do it because we want to be close to people. And we do it because we want to have relationships we can trust that are sustainable. And you can't have that without the truth. That's why it's worth it. And everyone who drives you away from the truth is driving you away from love and happiness and connection and trust and pair bonding and all of the great glorious juice that makes this somewhat staggering passage through this often veil of tears more than bearable and in fact enjoyable.
[2:22:56] And so if you have lied, and I understand, as a child it was mere survival and I applaud you for doing it but if you hide things from people, you cannot be close you cannot trust and I don't want you to go through the last half or third of your life without that beautiful embrace of love and trust that comes from, doing that weird dance with a flaming cactus called the truth truth.
[2:23:35] No, I didn't really realize how much I was really lying to myself about stuff and to others.
[2:23:41] And when you have that real commitment to the truth, to me, that's your best shot at a great relationship with your daughter, with your daughters, sorry. And it's a long way from nagging her about her musical taste and her taste in vegetables, right?
[2:24:05] Yeah, that was a mistake.
[2:24:08] Well, it's not a mistake if you don't know better. And that's what I think this conversation has been about. All right, have we had some useful syllables? Yeah, go ahead. sorry i couldn't quite catch that yeah.
[2:24:41] I'm not sure what to say Stefan well.
[2:24:43] I hope that you will keep me posted about how it's going i mean i really care about you and your family and i i would love for you to have a better relationship or a good relationship with your daughters but yeah i think there's some work to do on you maybe you with your mother and other things first.
[2:25:01] Yeah. All right.
[2:25:03] Will you keep me posted?
[2:25:05] Yes, I will. Thank you. Stefan, thank you for your time.
[2:25:08] You're welcome. I appreciate the conversation. Thank you so much.
[2:25:10] You're listening to me, so I appreciate it.
[2:25:13] All right. Bye-bye.
[2:25:14] See you later.
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