0:00 - Initial Struggles and Podcast Inspiration
14:42 - Unraveling Relationship with Bob
22:23 - Patterns of Selfish Partners
36:30 - The Core of Selfishness
38:10 - Early Signs of Selfish Behavior
43:44 - Enforcing Personal Standards
52:03 - The Importance of Asserting Needs
57:08 - Managing Differences in Relationships
1:04:35 - Reciprocal Pleasure in Relationships
1:08:31 - The Impact of Critical Parental Feedback
1:09:40 - Encouragement and Shared Interests
1:10:36 - Outing and Emotional Struggles
1:13:06 - Concerns and Homophobia
1:14:52 - Childhood Confessions
1:23:18 - Childhood Memories Resurface
1:30:35 - Early Drinking and Relationships
1:34:17 - Family Tensions and Dynamics
1:40:36 - Unveiling the Truth
1:45:41 - Troubled Friendships and Future
1:49:33 - Provoking Frustration and Helplessness
1:51:33 - Fear of Violence and Assertiveness
1:53:55 - Family Troubles and Weight Issues
1:59:27 - Lack of Affection and Emotional Coldness
2:07:13 - The Tragic Story of the Uncle
2:12:58 - The Contempt for Obvious Suicide
2:20:47 - Testing Empathy and Vulnerability
2:24:01 - Unresolved Childhood Issues
2:25:29 - Being Honest about Vulnerabilities
2:29:07 - Hope for a Great Future ahead
In this series of conversations, we delve into the complexities of relationships and personal values through various callers sharing their experiences with the host, Stefan. One caller recounts his emotional connection with Bob but acknowledges challenges when trust is broken due to Bob engaging in sexual activity with someone else. Stefan helps the caller navigate his confusion and reflects on differing views on intimacy, illustrating the intricacies of human relationships and expectations.
Another caller, who has autism, discusses struggles with self-esteem and interpreting social cues in past relationships. Stefan guides the caller in exploring self-awareness, recognizing red flags, and setting boundaries to prioritize their needs in future relationships. The conversation emphasizes the importance of empathy and personal growth in understanding and navigating interpersonal dynamics.
Stefan engages with a caller who reflects on past relationships with selfish partners and difficulty asserting standards and needs. By delving into the caller's childhood experiences and advocating for self-assertion from a young age, Stefan encourages a shift towards negotiating desires in relationships. The discussion underscores the significance of upholding personal boundaries and managing differences in wants for healthy connections.
The exploration of finding joy in the happiness of others and childhood experiences continues as a caller shares a distressing memory of early quasi-sexual interactions and grapples with guilt and confusion. Stefan provides a compassionate space for the caller to reflect on these experiences, emphasizing the complexities of childhood behavior, consent, and self-awareness at a young age. The conversation delves into navigating past traumas and the impact of early experiences on personal growth and self-awareness.
In a poignant exchange, Stefan and a caller address the caller's turbulent relationships with friends and family, shaped by experiences of violence, emotional distance, and profound loss. The caller opens up about feeling unsupported and seeks validation and guidance for coping with past trauma and current struggles. Stefan responds with empathy, validating the caller's experiences and offering support as they reflect on emotional hardships and the influence of past relationships on present decision-making.
Lastly, in a conversation centered on a caller grappling with a family member's suicide, addiction, and personal challenges, Stefan explores the intersection of childhood experiences with adult relationships. Focusing on the importance of setting boundaries and honest communication, Stefan guides the caller towards self-awareness, self-care, and seeking support to navigate difficult emotions. The dialogue underscores the potential for healing and positive change through reflection and authentic communication in fostering healthy connections.
[0:00] My first message, when I wrote it, I was kind of having a mental breakdown. I wasn't at my friend's house because of... It's kind of a relationship problem. But then I had been listening to you for quite a while. And I heard... I don't quite remember the name of the podcast, but you were talking about what kind of value you talking to me would bring. And so I was like, yeah, that's true. Maybe I should write and see what kind of topics we can discuss. So, I think I can read the second email.
[0:35] Sure, let's do it.
[0:37] Okay. Hey, Steph and Steph. I was listening to your podcast on true source of corruption. And it hit me that in my solicitation from yesterday, I didn't tell why I thought it would be interesting for philosophy to do a call-in. I mean, I did write the last request in the heat of the moment. But after some days, I'm thinking clear and see that the thoughts remain. And looking to the people I talk to and some comments online, I think I have a common problem. The most recent generation. By that, I mean heartbroken or lost in how to proceed. I don't know how many shows of yours I heard about the topic, but I know it were a lot. If I remember correctly, the most recent one was about the hot dancer. But I don't think you've done a show on how to deal with people with borderline or... which is my case with my old partner. I think it can add value about self-destructive thoughts and how to love yourself. Also, something I forgot to mention is that I am a homosexual male and I never had an actual connection with someone until now.
[1:38] I think I'm going to skip this part for a little bit, which makes me nervous. I'm talking to people about it, but in that case I was willing to let me go for him, which raises the question, why did I fall in love with such a degree with someone who I knew from the start was trouble. If there is still hope for people like me out there, I do understand there is a lot of people asking for help, but I would appreciate if we actually do a call-in in the matter of relationship with others in itself. I also forgot to mention that I had to leave my house to cry because my parents didn't know about my sexuality or the relationship I was having. I guess I just want to know where I'm at in my life.
[2:19] Well, I appreciate that. Thank you for reading that. I mean, usually we can start with your childhood and early childhood experiences and the good, the bad and the indifferent. So what was your childhood like overall?
[2:32] I mean, in the common sense of the word, I don't think I can complain about my childhood. I did have a little bit of trouble, especially when I was a kid. I had lots of aggression. I remember always getting into trouble. Kind of like the beginning of my childhood until I was almost in college, we were always moving. I mean, I think I have like 12 houses and so, yeah, that, that was kind of hard. And, uh, I also never seem to keep a friendship for a long time. They always come and go and I always, I was always having trouble, but I don't know if I can complain so much about my parents. I mean, it doesn't matter of what they provide for me.
[3:23] All right. So, I mean, listen, I'm going to be honest with you. of course as i generally am right so this is not a criticism at all so you ended up falling in lust or love with a borderline or you had a relationship with the borderline and you i think you used this a borderline as a very sort of extreme and a very dangerous psychological diagnosis i i obviously can't diagnose anyone i'm not a therapist but we'll use the term that you've used for convenience if that's all right with you so yeah somebody really unstable somebody really kind of dangerous and selfish and all of that. So is it the case that you genuinely believe you had a good childhood other than the moving? Or do you think that it might not have been that good, but you're playing nice? Because how you would end up falling in love with a... How long was the relationship with the borderline?
[4:18] Six months.
[4:21] Sorry, six months. Okay. Okay, let's start with that. Let's start with that, and then we can circle back on the childhood stuff, because it's always a little incomprehensible to me when people say, you know, my arm is broken in three places, and I say, well, gee, what happened? And they're like, nothing. Well, you know, if you ended up with a borderline, it probably had something to do with childhood. I think it usually does. Not perfect, always. So let's talk about the guy. Can we give him, give me a made-up name that we can use for him?
[4:51] Let's use Bob.
[4:52] Bob. Okay, something simple. Okay. Okay, so tell me about, you met Bob, or how did you meet him, and what happened with the relationship?
[5:04] I mean, I was with some former friends, and I was out of my town, and I was doing this dating app stuff, and I was kind of drunk at the moment. and I don't know, I was just messing and I saw this guy and we started talking and he was kind of nice to me. In the beginning, things started to develop. In the first two, three weeks, we were kind of close. We had some common interests. I heard his stories. He talked to me about...
[5:38] No, no, but hang on. You can't get close to a borderline, can you? Because the personality is too unstable and too manipulative?
[5:47] Yeah i think.
[5:48] It's kind of like saying i was really great friends with the con man it's like that's his job isn't it to make you feel like a friend well.
[5:56] A little bit i think i mean it wasn't my first love interest but he was the one that struck me harder i don't know if that makes sense.
[6:07] Okay now i understand i understand that was an attraction but do you believe like in hindsight or maybe we should let the relationship thing play out but But just when you say, we were close, I mean, if he generally is that unstable a personality structure that there's nothing to get close to. There's no center, there's no core, there's no identity that's outside of manipulation, if I understand this correctly.
[6:31] I remember the first weeks, there was some talk about his personality. And I remember a red flag that came into my mind about, he was saying that he doesn't believe there is right or wrong.
[6:48] Sorry, I had to laugh. So you met this guy, how long ago did you meet him?
[6:53] It was November.
[6:55] November, okay. So November 2023. And you've been listening to me for years, right? wreck so you know my definition of love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous right yes and this guy says what i don't know no such thing as virtue no such thing as right and wrong and you're like yes but he has tight buns i mean help me i mean you may disagree with my definition of love of course right i.
[7:21] Don't really disagree i i actually like it but that's why it's so hard for me to understand like how could i get involved in such a situation and it's not the first time i mean if we take former relationships friends or boyfriends anything it's, i have a tendency i end up with bad people not necessarily bad people just you know.
[7:46] Okay but let me ask you this what's the longest relationship that you've had and i don't mean sort of tortured breakup time like longest you know getting along well relationship that you've had a.
[7:58] Year and a half year.
[7:59] And a half okay and you don't have to tell me your actual age but you sort of early 20s mid 20s late 20s early 20s early 20s okay so year and a half is pretty good, yeah it's pretty good okay and so let's so you you meet this guy in in person right and how long How long was it until he told you that he doesn't believe in good and evil?
[8:30] I think it was about a month. I don't quite remember what we were discussing. I mean, I don't know. I feel like maybe I just made something on my mind about how we actually were.
[8:46] Okay, well, how long was it after you got together that you had sex?
[8:52] We didn't.
[8:56] Okay, so you never had sex or you didn't have sex early on?
[9:00] Never. I mean, just oral and stuff.
[9:04] Okay, that's sex. Sorry, what do you mean just oral? What are you, Bill Clinton? That's sex. Sorry, that's an old reference.
[9:12] No, no, I know.
[9:13] So how long was it before, okay, engaged in sexual activity? And if you want to know what sex is, it's like if your boyfriend was doing it with some other guy, you'd feel upset. You know, if he's shaking another guy's hand or sharing a drink, having drinks together, probably not that upset. that if he's having oral sex with another guy, you are upset, right?
[9:33] Yeah, that kind of happened. Okay.
[9:39] Sorry, your answer is that kind of happened? Hang on, hang on, hang on. Is that your answer to my question? That kind of happened? When did it happen after you met?
[9:50] No, no. Me and him, we never had any kind of sex. No close relationship like that. but he had recently with another guy.
[10:01] Sorry so you and he engaged in no form of sexual activity.
[10:06] Not from the first two times we met no.
[10:08] Okay so just in order to save my sanity if I'm asking you a question how long after you met did you engage in sexual relationships and you say well not for the first few times can you just answer the question just you know we didn't engage in, I'm sorry?
[10:26] We didn't engage in sex, but we didn't have any kind of sex.
[10:31] Okay, so we're right back to where we started. Because then I say, so you never had sex, and you said, well, not the first few times we met. And then I say, well, when did you have sex? And you say, well, we never had sex. And then I say, well, when did you have sex?
[10:41] With other partners, yes.
[10:44] You had sex with other partners?
[10:46] Yes.
[10:51] I'm sorry to sound all kind of straight and square, but what? What? So you're dating this guy, you don't have sex with him, but you each have sex with other people?
[11:01] So I can repeat the last part?
[11:02] So you're dating Bob, and you and Bob don't have sex, but you and Bob both have sex with other people, but not...
[11:11] No, no, no, no, no, no, not during our time talking. It wasn't supposed to happen. I mean, we were trying to build something, we were talking, trying to make something monogamous. which means it's been about I don't know how long since I had sex for the last time, but no it wasn't with him.
[11:36] I'm still trying to figure that out Okay, now So you meet Bob and you said you're trying to build something monogamous, does that mean that you're both having sex with other people but trying to build a relationship with each other?
[11:50] No, no, we weren't having sex with other people you.
[11:54] Weren't having sex with other people won't I'm sorry no.
[11:59] We weren't having sex with other people it's we just weren't having sex.
[12:03] Oh no so no sex at all and over six months of the relationship you did not have sex with Bob is that right correct okay so how do you know you were dating and not just friends.
[12:23] I don't know, it's kind of something that I felt.
[12:27] That kind of stuff?
[12:29] Yeah, that happens also, but it was kind of a different connection. I mean, when we talk, when we used to do calls and in our dates, it was, I don't know, kind of weird. I never felt that before. I'm just trying... I'm sorry. Yeah, I think we... It's kind of strange. We were dating, but... It was more because of how connected we were. I mean, we used to talk about everything and very close. It has that kind of intimacy I never had before.
[13:19] Okay. And... so the relationship progressed and you were both celibate I guess you weren't having sex with other people you weren't having sex with each other and how did the relationship progress over the six months.
[13:35] I mean we didn't have sex more because of I didn't want it to I mean I told him that, I wanted something with him and I would feel really bad if he doesn't have done something and also I wouldn't do anything because I was trying to have him, right? And so we established this relationship where we were not in the same city, but we were talking every day and we were just trying to figure it out. And okay, so we weren't having sex and everything for a while and, I described it in my message, but we were kind of distance in the beginning. After I first met him in February, we just became closer.
[14:27] Sorry, was it February or November?
[14:31] Physically met him.
[14:33] Oh, so you were online chatting in a different city in November. February, you met him in person. Okay, got it.
[14:38] Correct. Yes. And it was a really great date.
[14:43] we we we saw the sunset sunrise listen to music everything's described but, we were kind of close then and i really felt i don't know it's i i don't know if i can say it's love but we we grew we grew closer i'm sorry about my english really um but i'm sorry about my english.
[15:12] Okay that's that's fine don't worry about it.
[15:16] We became closer we started doing these call-ins constantly and i remember one day around, end of february where uh i saw his twitter and i learned that he had had sex with another partner in December. And I was very sad.
[15:41] Sorry, he had sex when?
[15:44] In December.
[15:45] Okay.
[15:47] Last day of the year, and there was some messages on his Twitter page talking about, how he you know how I was annoying him. At least I think it was me. I may have projected, but i feel like i actually was the one because he said oh he forces me to answer these questions and i don't like it and i don't know part of me always knew it wasn't gonna last because of all the things that i told you like not believing in truth or this or that but saw that really hurt me and we started talking and i thought i told him i was sad that how i felt and i understand we, i mean.
[16:43] Took a day off without talking to anyone and when i came back we talked and he said it wasn't going to happen again I mean, he betrayed my trust, but yeah. And then came my birthday, March 7th. And he just showed up at my city. And we went on a date. And once again, we were connected. The chemistry was pretty good.
[17:18] Uh and then, things were evolving but he then came here again april 2nd in my city and, he didn't want to meet and uh i was like why he said oh my dad doesn't allow me i was like like, don't you like 22? He just disappeared for two days. And I sent him a lot of messages. And then we started talking about how we maybe shouldn't talk anymore because he hurt me.
[18:00] Right. So he made promises to not sleep around, right? And then he slept around. Is that right?
[18:07] Yes.
[18:08] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, but he told you within a couple of weeks of meeting him that he didn't believe in right and wrong, right?
[18:15] I know.
[18:17] I'm confused, right? I mean, if he says, I don't believe in right and wrong, then why would he keep his word to you?
[18:27] I don't know why he would keep it.
[18:29] Did you not believe him? Like, did you think he was lying?
[18:33] Kind of. I mean, yes.
[18:37] So you thought he did believe in right and wrong, but he lied to you and said he didn't.
[18:43] Yes. I mean, in that type of conversations. And also...
[18:47] I mean, sorry, just it's a little confusing to me because if someone says to me, Steph, I never believe in repaying debts. Now, I want to borrow some money. And then I lend him money. And then I say, my God, this man. he's not paying me back I mean what would people say to me.
[19:12] You knew, you shouldn't lend him money yes well.
[19:18] No I mean lend him money but it's not a loan it's a gift because he said he doesn't pay money back right.
[19:24] I mean, you are absolutely correct absolutely correct I shouldn't have, projected something about his personality or ethics i mean i tried to keep my word and i thought he what he would do is do but he just didn't and he had a very different vision of sex and uh i didn't approve of.
[19:52] And what was bob's vision of sex.
[19:56] He didn't see as something intimate as something, some sort of great connection between two humans. I mean, it was just an action that you'd do.
[20:11] All right. Are you new to gay?
[20:15] Sorry?
[20:15] Are you new to gay? Are you new to being gay?
[20:20] No.
[20:20] No. Okay. Now, I have some experience with the gay community, all right? I went to theater school. I lived with a bunch of gay guys when I was in my graduate school program and so on, right? Now, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that there's not a tiny number of gay men who are kind of promiscuous and view sex as pretty much physical, right?
[20:48] Yeah, I know.
[20:50] Okay, so if you view sex, which I think is the right way to view it, as a sort of spiritual connection or an emotional connection, that's great. Okay. But are you shocked that there's a gay man who views sex as largely physical?
[21:08] No, I'm not shocked. I mean, I'm shocked.
[21:10] Okay, so help me understand all of this.
[21:14] I mean, I know it is confusing. And I think that I'm just trying to understand my mind of why would I do such a thing. I mean, I knew all of this. I knew how the community works, how he works. and still I decided to go one.
[21:37] Well, and then you seem to be hurt and upset that he did pretty much what he told you he was going to do.
[21:44] Yeah, that's the worst part.
[21:47] So, there's kind of an elemental level of self-protection here that's missing. Does that make sense?
[21:54] Yes. I mean... I don't want to blame you on self-esteem, but...
[22:05] Well, self-esteem doesn't answer anything because the question is, where did that come from? Right? And I'm sure that this guy has pretty high self-esteem. So self-esteem is not necessarily associated strongly with being a good person. There's a lot of vain, exploitive people out there.
[22:23] Okay. So how did the relationship end with Bob?
[22:29] Uh... after he told me we shouldn't talk anymore we were just like okay let's not talk anymore because he said that he heard me, and we kept talking I mean at least he said he wanted to and I saw a message about how he, was liking another guy and I was kind of, I asked him about that and he just said, I told you not to look at my things like that and, I don't regret and I was yeah, that was pretty much it for me it was done, so
[23:26] This guy who cheated on you you then stayed in touch with him and you were hurt that he I guess you weren't even cheating at this point because you weren't having sex and you were just talking were you talking as friends when he had when he liked the other guy?
[23:41] Yes.
[23:42] Okay, so the guy who says I don't believe in right and wrong, who cheated on you, you stay in touch with him and were you hurt and upset that he cheated on you again?
[23:55] Yes, because I mean, it was for me, I think like, now it's gonna sound stupid I mean but I think from then on I knew I would never be able to get back to him because, he was emotionally involved with other people and he just disregarded my feelings and I knew that would happen and it's not the first relationship where it ended up like this.
[24:31] And is that how things went with the year-and-a-half relationship as well?
[24:36] I mean, there wasn't cheating involved, but he was kind of... I don't want to use narcissistic because it's like it's a kind of vague but it was all about him. I mean I didn't have any space in the relationship for the things I want to do or how I want to proceed and he was also kind of... I mean he did believe in right or wrong but he was, he was diagnosed, with schizoid. I don't know what that means. It was something about seeing things or stuff like that.
[25:31] Schizophrenic?
[25:32] I mean, not schizophrenic, I mean...
[25:36] Like a schizoid personality disorder, like psychotic or something?
[25:39] Yes. Yes, kind of. So he has visions.
[25:43] Did he use drugs or were these just self-generated?
[25:45] No, he was actually kind of really tight in that aspect. He never used any drugs, nor did he drink. He was against all of that. And I also had a habit of alcohol intoxication.
[26:02] Oh, you drank?
[26:03] I mean, Yeah, I do.
[26:09] I'm sorry, how much do you drink?
[26:16] A lot. I mean, until I lose conscience.
[26:22] So you black out, right? You drink to black out. And how often do you do that?
[26:29] Once every week, two weeks.
[26:32] Okay. And the rest of the time you don't drink much or at all?
[26:37] No, no. During the weeks, no.
[26:39] Okay. Got it. it and is it the case that all of your lovers have been selfish or have you had someone who's not.
[26:49] I don't think i ever had one i mean he's my third and the second was also kind of crazy he wanted me to pay for everything and i remember talking to him trying to discuss some more intellectual stuff with him and it was just like i don't know can you buy me ice cream like oh okay, so that was so he just wanted you to.
[27:10] Pay for everything.
[27:11] Yes so.
[27:13] You've never had a lover who's not selfish is that right yes and do you know why that is.
[27:22] No I'm just I keep trying to figure it out I mean yesterday I was listening to your latest podcast on this subject and I don't know anything about dating I guess.
[27:37] Well I mean you must know something about it because you keep choosing the same guys right.
[27:42] Yeah all the mentally trouble but I mean I I am also kind of mentally I mean I told you in my message that I am I have autism and, So I don't know why I keep going for broken people.
[28:05] That's right. The have autism means like you've been formally diagnosed, and that's right?
[28:10] Yes, correct. Okay.
[28:12] And what is it that made you go for the diagnosis? What behaviors did you exhibit that you thought or somebody around you thought you should go and get diagnosed?
[28:22] I was seeing a psychology, and she told me that she thought that I had something, That I should go and do an IQ test in a clinic that there is here in my city. And, okay, so I went there and it came back with some diagnosed autism in the sense.
[28:46] Sorry, but what did your psychologist see or did she say, based upon these behaviors, I recommend you get tested? did um what was it that you were talking about or what behaviors did she see that would lead her in that direction right like if you go in and you say i'm not a psychologist obviously right but if you go into someone and say i'm depressed i don't know that they immediately say go get tested for autism like there's something that i assume that there's some kind of behavior that, you you were talking about or exhibiting that gave her that impulse if that makes sense.
[29:24] She told me it was because of two things I didn't like to look her in the eye, I mean I have a really I have a really serious trouble doing that, and because I tend to interpret things wrong when people talk to me I mean I usually, go for something and I end up looking like a fool.
[29:49] So what do you What do you mean by you tend to interpret things wrong? I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to make sure I know what you mean by that.
[29:56] Yeah, I know. I can think of an example. I mean, one time I was in a restaurant. I was doing my plate. It was a... this kind of restaurant and i let the spoon fall fell on the floor and i just desperate myself and instead of picking up the spoon and taking elsewhere i just put it back on the on the food, and everybody was looking at me like why would you do that and i was i don't know i mean did you feel shy.
[30:28] Or self-conscious about that.
[30:30] I constantly feel self-conscious yeah so you feel kind of.
[30:35] Shy and self-conscious, and so you feel kind of awkward in these kinds of situations. Is that right?
[30:42] Most kind of situations.
[30:43] My gosh, I'm glad this diagnosis wasn't around when I was younger. But anyway, all right. All right, okay. I don't know, maybe it would have helped.
[30:52] I don't know. I don't like the diagnosis on autism. But, I mean, I have gone to several psychologists and psychiatrists, and they told me I have. I mean, it's the same thing with depression. i mean they keep telling me i had i just i don't know.
[31:08] Yeah i mean obviously philosophy can't do much with with that kind of stuff but we can at least so so you um you don't i don't know that you misinterpret things um obviously we've just met so what do i know but and obviously if i say anything that doesn't match with your experience tell me and i'll i'll change it but when the guy said to you it's not like a kind of dyslexia right so dyslexia the words are kind of jumbled The letters are jumbled up and it's tough to read, right? So when Bob said to you, I don't believe in right and wrong, you didn't misinterpret that as he does believe in right and wrong, right?
[31:49] I didn't. I didn't.
[31:50] Yeah, so you correctly interpreted what he said. I guess you didn't take it very seriously or you didn't act on that information, right?
[31:59] Right.
[32:01] But it's not that you misinterpret things. I mean, when the spoon fell on the floor- You knew that it probably shouldn't go back in the food, right? But maybe you felt too shy or self-conscious to change that, right?
[32:18] Yeah, I do that a lot, but I don't know.
[32:21] So it's not that you misinterpret things, I think. Now, from the outside, maybe somebody says, boy, he doesn't even know that the spoon from the floor shouldn't go into the food. Now, first of all, it's a little bit of a guy thing, you know, keep your immune system robust, you know, fight the good fight yeah.
[32:41] I didn't care but.
[32:42] Yeah it's a little bit of a guy thing i i really don't think that you know unless it unless it drops into something furry i don't you know i don't hugely care but you know that's before i got married now i totally care now it matters oh okay everything to me i'm just kidding right but let's just kind of get married and letting women civilized influence wash over you so to speak but so i don't know that it's you misinterpret interpret uh what people say or social cues you just feel a bit shy or maybe a lot shy and self-conscious to uh to to act on them or follow them right so this guy who said i don't believe in right and wrong you understood what he meant and you certainly through listening to what i do you would understand that that's a very dangerous thing for someone to say so it's not so much that you don't understand the cues i think you don't act on them or take them maybe as seriously as you should does that make sense exactly.
[33:42] This i mean yeah.
[33:43] Okay so so that's a different thing right yes.
[33:47] Uh there was another reason that she suspected it.
[33:52] I don't.
[33:53] Know uh she said i had this laser vision and things and i do like a lot of studies and it's just this thing you know this.
[34:04] Is the topic i just.
[34:05] Keep yes i.
[34:07] Mean yeah i'm i'm the last one to i'm not gonna i'm not i'm a total laser guy and so i'm not gonna um i'm not gonna bag on you about any of that stuff i i don't know that it's possible to get things done that are deep and complex without getting kind of crazy he focused on them but anyway all right so laser focus inability to meet people in the eye and what she or the other psychologists would perceive or or say is misreading social cues right right okay, and how did the relationship that went on for a year and a half how did that end okay.
[34:47] I mean it was my first relationship and i i guess i was just trying to get with someone and uh i mean i like laser focused on him like and i realized that i just wasn't enjoying myself in the relationship i mean we didn't do much much things together and just i kind of don't want to call him where I'm going to go out, because he was going to be grumpy or angry if we are at the bar or something. And I was like, yeah, there is not much in common here. So I guess it was like the last straw. I just felt like, yeah, this is not going anywhere. so he's I mean, he's he was a nice person but it just wasn't compatible we didn't have many interests and we didn't meet on politics or philosophy the.
[35:52] Person you said was kind of narcissistic yes so what do you mean he's a nice person.
[35:59] I didn't isn't nice being close to other people People and.
[36:03] Narcissistic is kind of the opposite.
[36:06] Yeah, I was going to use the word, I feel kind of sorry for him. But I felt like, yeah, I don't know if I can feel sorry for anyone.
[36:15] No, no. But help me understand how he can be both selfish and nice.
[36:24] No, he shouldn't be nice and thoughtful.
[36:27] Sorry, go ahead.
[36:29] Yes, it's a contradiction.
[36:30] I keep interrupting you. My apologies. But narcissists can be totally nice when they want something.
[36:38] Yes.
[36:39] That's how they're already played, right? Because they know how to be nice. But they only, like, you know, like a guy who wants to sleep with a girl, or a guy, I guess, can be a total gentleman until he gets what he wants.
[36:51] Yeah, he do that sometimes.
[36:55] Okay. So is he selfish at the core, or is he nice? Because nice people can sometimes be self-absorbed or selfish, and selfish people can sometimes be nice, particularly when they want something from you. But, I mean, you knew this guy for a year and a half. Was he nice or selfish at the core?
[37:16] I'd say selfish.
[37:17] Okay. All right. So then let's not talk about him being nice, because that's kind of confusing, right?
[37:23] Yeah, I was going to use the word sad, but I don't... I felt sorry for him, in a way.
[37:32] Hmm. And when did you first notice that he was selfish?
[37:38] Um... I don't remember like the first time, the first moment, but it was kind of, I guess it was the first time I went to his place and he just talked about himself and he started showing me some videos that I told him I didn't want to see.
[38:00] Oh, like pornography videos?
[38:01] Some YouTube videos. No, no, no, no, no. Some YouTube videos. I mean, something that he likes. And I was like, yeah, I don't agree with this kind of thing. I don't like this kind of thought.
[38:10] Oh, okay. Got it. Got it.
[38:12] You know, like Karen's shouting at manager, they're like, yeah, I don't think I want to see that. And he was like, no, no, no, watch this. It's going to be funny. And I was like, okay.
[38:21] And sorry, how long into the relationship was this?
[38:27] Three months, I guess. So, yeah.
[38:30] Wait, so you knew him for three months before you went to his house?
[38:34] Yes.
[38:35] Okay. Was he far away?
[38:40] Um a little bit i mean other side of the town it was like 40 minutes.
[38:45] So why why wouldn't you see his house for three months because.
[38:51] He was closet and his family was there.
[38:55] Okay got it got it and was there anything before three months that gave you an indication that he might be selfish because you know if you're showing someone videos and they say i really really don't want to see this then you say oh i'm so sorry and turn it off right because, you're a thoughtful person right so was there anything before three months that gave you the indication that he was selfish not.
[39:20] I can remember i mean it was almost three years ago that this happened and uh i won't be able to remember from the top of my mind anything before.
[39:32] That let me ask you this so in the three months that you knew him and you were dating through this three-month period right and were you monogamous yes okay absolutely, so did did you suggest things that you wanted to do did he ask you what is it that you want to do what would make you the happiest did he inquire as to what would make the relationship the best for you.
[40:02] No, I mean, we have a lot of arguments in the matter of sex and kissing because he didn't like to do it.
[40:12] Sorry, he didn't like the sex or the kissing or both?
[40:16] Yes, both. Okay. And I was like, okay, he's just settling in. We do it sometimes, but he really didn't like the human touch, I guess. And I was like, okay, maybe I am alone in this relationship. Perhaps I should end it.
[40:39] So what was so appealing to him that he didn't like to be touched? And you're like, this would be a great lover.
[40:48] Nothing, I guess. I was just looking for the first experience.
[40:56] Right. But we're talking about a year and a half of investment of your heart and life.
[41:03] Yeah and uh, oh i guess it just i tried any of the things earlier but he would just say how much he likes me and all the things we've done he sent me our pictures together and i was like yeah i can't do this to him but at the same time i was feeling miserable right so you were unhappy.
[41:26] Happy but you pleased him by staying.
[41:28] Yeah okay so do.
[41:32] You want to know why you attract selfish men, please because you don't enforce any standards, I mean, you have standards, right? You have standards, i.e., you listen to me, so you accept my definition of love, right? So you have standards. You want to be touched and kissed by your first lover. So you have standards, but you don't enforce them. Now, enforcing them sounds very aggressive, right? I mean, I don't speak any other languages very well, So I enforce English in these call-in shows, but I don't do it by grabbing people by the neck and yelling at them to speak English, damn it, right? It's just that's a requirement, right?
[42:23] Right.
[42:25] It's a requirement that you're at least decent with English, and that's my limitation. I mean, I wish I could speak Spanish, Portuguese. I wish I could speak French. You know, wonderful, right? But I can't. And I think it's better for me to do shows than learn other languages, especially because what I try to communicate is quite complex, so I'd have to get very good at other languages. So, based upon my limitations and my focus, I have a requirement for English in these call-in shows, right? So, I have that standard, and I enforce it. in fact i've done a couple of shows they never got published where the person this isn't you right but the person would speak english at a level that we couldn't communicate very well, and so i just had to abandon that and and get rid of those to delete those shows because they didn't go anywhere but that's the standard right so i mean tell me about a standard that you have Right? Because you, and you, sorry, another example is with Bob, the six month guy, you had a standard called, I'd really like it if you didn't hit on other guys, right?
[43:36] Right.
[43:37] And he did. And then you kept talking to him, right?
[43:43] Right.
[43:44] So you have standards, but you don't uphold them. I don't know if this is like enforced sounds very aggressive, but you don't uphold these standards, right?
[43:57] Yeah, and I feel like that is in almost every relationship I have.
[44:01] Absolutely. So when someone who's selfish comes along, they're sniffing for one thing. so they can if they because selfish people kind of exploit others right, and so when you wanted to break up with the year and a half guy and he'd say oh but here's pictures of us together and blah blah blah what he didn't say was how can i change so that this relationship makes you happier he just tried programming you with all this i love you sentimental stuff right But he didn't say, what can I change to make the relationship better for you? No, he was more like, okay, what buttons do I have to push in you so that you're more likely to stay? Does that make sense?
[44:50] I mean, yeah, that's exactly what he did.
[44:54] I'm not too bad at this stuff from time to time. I can get it down from time to time. so for him to say if my boyfriend wants to break up with me it's because he's not happy in the relationship so I need to ask my boyfriend what will make him more happy in the relationship, that would not make I don't think that would even cross his mind if that makes sense.
[45:21] I mean I don't remember him asking what can you do better or or buy your own fads, something like that. I mean, just when... He noticed that I wasn't talking to him as much.
[45:39] Right.
[45:43] And I mean, I didn't feel any love for him or anything.
[45:49] You didn't feel any love for him? No.
[45:53] Yes.
[45:54] Okay.
[45:58] I didn't cry when we broke up. I didn't...
[46:01] All right. So do you know why... Sorry to interrupt. Do you know why you don't have any standards that you enforce or uphold?
[46:10] No.
[46:11] Okay. So the reason why you don't uphold any standards... Okay, let me sort of back up for a second here. So when selfish people go through the world, what are they looking for? They're not looking for confident people who know their value, right?
[46:31] Right.
[46:32] So when selfish people cruise through this world, what are they looking for?
[46:38] Resources?
[46:40] Yeah, but if the resources are held by a competent person or a mature person or a, you know, whatever, right? Whatever is not quite working for you just yet, then those resources are unavailable. So what are they looking for? And I don't think that you got a bunch of, I mean, it's not like you gave these guys a bunch of money or anything, right?
[46:59] No, no, I didn't.
[47:00] I guess the first guy wanted you to buy ice cream, right? So selfish people, what are they sniffing for? What are they looking for?
[47:12] Weakness?
[47:14] Yeah, yeah. Desperation.
[47:18] Yeah.
[47:20] Does that fit better, right?
[47:22] Right.
[47:24] They're looking for desperation. Desperation, because desperation says, I have no standards. Desperation says, you never have to worry about me asserting my needs and demanding things from you, because I'm desperate. Does that make sense?
[47:52] Yeah, and that's exactly how I feel in general.
[47:56] So the funny thing is, is that you think that the selfish people are exploiting or harming you. Does that make sense? Like you feel wronged?
[48:11] I mean, kind of. I blame myself.
[48:19] Well, I know, but the way you've communicated it to me is that these were selfish people who did you wrong.
[48:25] Right. They did me wrong, but I knew they would do that.
[48:30] No, I get that. But it's mutual exploitation. You also exploited them because you, I think, and again, tell me if I'm wrong, but the reason why we're desperate is we don't really think we have much to offer.
[48:51] Yes.
[48:52] Like, if I'm willing to work for $3 an hour, it's because I really don't feel like I'm worth more than that. If you ask Elon Musk to take a job with you at minimum wage, he'd just laugh at you, right? So if you don't feel like you have much to offer, but you want a relationship, then the only thing you have to offer is submission. is not having needs, is conforming to the selfish person's preferences. You're both exploiting each other. You get companionship without having to deal with the insecurity of wondering why on earth you feel like you don't have anything to offer. Having to figure that out, right? So you get companionship by pretending you have something to offer when all you really have to offer is empty conformity or compliance with the selfish person's preferences.
[50:02] It's not true love.
[50:03] I'm sorry?
[50:05] I was just thinking, I mean, I never gave them true love also.
[50:12] Well, no, because you're there.
[50:16] For loneliness.
[50:17] Not feel lonely. And they're there to get their own way. And so you sell your identity so that they get their way. And they pretend that you have something to offer. when all you're doing is complying and conforming and serving them. So you're helping them avoid their selfishness by not asserting any needs, and they're helping you avoid your emptiness by giving you companionship. You're both avoiding something difficult in yourself.
[50:55] I guess I just never learned how to pose myself.
[51:01] So you never learned?
[51:03] How do you impose myself? Oh, no, no, no.
[51:05] You're born that way. You're born imposing your will. You're born, getting what you want. I mean, babies cry, right?
[51:16] Right.
[51:16] And if they don't cry, they die.
[51:19] Right?
[51:22] Baby's hungry, baby cries. Baby's thirsty, baby cries. Baby's got a wet diaper, baby cries. Baby's tired, baby cries, right? So babies impose pose and that's how we're born, right? And that's got to last for a long time. It's not like it's just three days after you're born and then you stop doing that because you'd still die, right? If a baby was like, woke up in the middle of the night and said, oh, well, mom's probably tired, you know, I'll just lie here till morning, the baby could die. Baby wakes up, baby cries. So asserting your needs, we're all born with that. And I guess anybody who's not born with that is not having a conversation with me because they're dead.
[52:04] So the question isn't, why was I never taught this? The question was, how is it broken in me? How is it beaten or neglected or yelled at or to the point where my natural assertion of my needs fled my body? Does that make sense?
[52:24] Yes. I mean, I agree.
[52:26] So this is why early on, and I said, let's talk about your relationships. relationships so this is why early on when you said i don't really have anything to complain about my childhood i'm like really so then why don't you have any needs, why don't you uphold any standards why do you wander into self-destructive situations, why do you keep exploiting other people letting them exploit you and call that a relationship and that doesn't come out of nowhere right, yeah right that's not the default position like if i grew up in canada i i don't speak japanese where if i go i grew up in japan i probably speak japanese right, it's not something that's the default position to have no needs sorry go ahead.
[53:10] So you're saying it is something that it was took from me.
[53:14] Yeah i.
[53:15] Knew how to do it and And.
[53:18] Somehow I just... Well, we're born doing it.
[53:21] Yeah.
[53:21] We're born doing it. And that's the only way we survive. So then the question is, why did you stop doing it? And there's only a couple of answers to that.
[53:33] Would you tell me?
[53:35] No, I'd rather you tell me a bit about your childhood. Without this, everything was great.
[53:40] Okay.
[53:43] What happened when you, as a child, when you would express a need or preference, that went against what your parents wanted? I mean, I assume part of the preference you had was to not move around all the time.
[53:54] I hated it. I mean, I started making connections and relationships and yeah, we moved.
[54:01] Okay, so I assume at some point, if your parents said we're moving, you'd say, I don't want to, right?
[54:07] Yeah, I did that a few times.
[54:09] Okay, and what happened?
[54:11] We just moved. I mean, my dad is kind of terrible with money and there was something like, yeah, or if we leave this place or the bank's going to take it.
[54:28] So but why would you then have to move to a whole new neighborhood right just move to a smaller place or an apartment in the same neighborhood so you didn't have to keep switching schools oh.
[54:39] No i kept the same school i mean that didn't change.
[54:43] Oh okay so you moved around a bunch but you kept the same school yeah.
[54:47] I just lost contact with friends that was closer you know You know what I mean?
[54:52] Yeah, yeah. Okay, I got it.
[54:53] We took the same bus and neighborhoods and everything. That kind of contact. We're always good.
[55:01] Okay. Got it, got it. And you have siblings, I assume?
[55:07] Yeah, I have a sister.
[55:08] Okay. And as a whole, with your parents, when you would say, I want to do this, that, or the other, what would happen if it didn't coincide with what they wanted to do?
[55:25] Most of the time we just ended up not doing it but after i went to high school i was of my rebellious so i just did it anyway well.
[55:38] No that's when you didn't you didn't have any conflict with your parents because you are old enough to do your own thing i mean when you were still growing up with your parents and if you said i want to go to the zoo or i want to go to of the beat, or I want to play Monopoly, I don't know, whatever you might want to do. If your parents didn't feel like it or didn't want to, what would happen?
[56:06] If it was monetary, like I want some video game or something, I would usually get it. But if it was like, dad, let's go watch a movie or something, people would be like, yeah, I'm working, I can't go, or I don't like movies. And we never met eye to eye on this subject.
[56:26] Well, so buying you video games is a way of preventing other conflicts because you're busy playing video games rather than bothering them with your different preferences. Does that make sense? yes okay so what about your mom when you would say mom I want to do x y I want to learn how to make a quiche or like I don't know whatever you'd want to do with your mom what would happen.
[56:54] Usually she she was warmer I don't know if that's the correct word she would find time she was more connected to me growing up okay.
[57:09] So she would try to accommodate your preferences yes okay so and just so you know i mean i'm sure you know this but it's worth mentioning it's called the coincidence of once, it's very rare in any relationship that you both want to do the same thing at the same time, I mean, that would be kind of a weird coincidence. It would be like you didn't make plans with a friend to see a movie, but you both end up at the same movie on the same night at the same time. That would be kind of a weird coincidence, right? If you want to fly to the Dominican Republic and you happen to get on a plane and then your best friend happens to be sitting right next to you, that'd be kind of jaw-dropping, right? What are you doing here? it's like oh i like that would be so weird because that's called then that's when you both want to do the same thing completely independent of each other that's incredibly rare in a relationship did you see what i mean yes.
[58:17] Yes i do.
[58:17] Yeah so the big challenge in relationships is to manage the difference in wants, You know, if my daughter's feeling chatty and the weather's not too cold and she says, let's go for a walk at 11 o'clock at night and I'm tired or whatever, right? Most times I'll say yes. I mean, if I'm really tired, I'll say no. But most times it'd be like, okay, let's go for a walk. Would I go for a walk at 11 o'clock at night if I'm tired and I'm walking right now? I walk all day anyway. So would I go for a walk at 11 o'clock if my daughter wasn't saying, let's go for a walk? Well, no. But I also wouldn't have watched Finding Nemo 35 times when my daughter was little. right so the coincidence of once, is important in a relationship and there really is only one solution to it you can't wait for everyone to want to do the same thing at the same time because that's never going to happen, so how do you solve it how do you solve the fact that everyone in a relationship wants to do different things at different times?
[59:39] Should I impose myself? I mean, state what I want and try to get it?
[59:46] Well, but how? How do you get it?
[59:51] I don't know. Negotiation?
[59:54] Right. Well, it's a fundamental change in your mindset. It's a fundamental change in your mindset. So your mindset is, when you're younger, I want to do X, right? I want to do, I want to, I want to play Monopoly or I want to go play hide and seek. I want to go climb a tree or whatever it is, right? I want to do that. And then you, you know, try and convince other people, maybe your trade a little bit like, oh, you want to go play hide and go seek. I want to play Monopoly. Let's do an hour of Monopoly and then we'll go climb some tree. Like you go back and forth, right?
[1:00:30] Right.
[1:00:31] Because you recognize that if you only get your way, you only end up with empty people and then it doesn't last because eventually they get tired of it, right? Which is why you feel sad for the guy, the selfish guy, right? The year and a half guy. You feel sad for him because he's missing out on the joys of selflessness, right? But even more foundationally, this sort of horse trading back and forth i give you this you give me that the most foundational thing is, so for instance if my wife wants to go and see, a show that i'm not particularly interested in so my wife has a thing where she's like i have to know what happened which which means whatever show we if we start a show let's say it's you know 10 episodes it's tough to get her to not continue because she wants she just really wants to know what happens right and so sometimes i've watched shows that i'm not really into, but my wife really enjoys so what do i get out of that, i'd rather be doing something else all things considered like if she had to go out for the the evening, I wouldn't put this show on, right? So what do I get out of watching the show with my wife?
[1:02:00] I mean, you get time with her?
[1:02:02] Well, not really, because we're just staring at a screen. I mean, it's nice cuddling and all of that, but it's not exactly time together in the same way that if we were talking across a dinner table.
[1:02:12] Right. You're getting, I mean, Is it just, you know, doing something that she wants so she can do the same thing for you?
[1:02:32] Well, that's the tit-for-tat thing. Right? So I'll not want to be here, but I'll put up with it so that she'll do something I want later. But that's kind of resentment, and there's a kind of accounting that goes on with that. Well, I give you four hours for this show. You've got to give me three hours of a hike when you don't want to go on a hike. Like, you know, then it becomes kind of a tit-for-tat thing. and it's not very warm?
[1:02:59] I can think of maybe... Because if it is something that she enjoys, you want to know about it?
[1:03:11] Well, yeah, I mean, there could be something that she enjoys that I can learn about. Right? So she's Greek, and so she loves Greek music, and I didn't particularly like it when I first started listening to it, but I've really grown to appreciate it, so she could be right. But most fundamentally, if my wife is watching a show that I'm not much into, I'll watch it because I take pleasure in her pleasure. Now, but that only works in one situation or one condition, and one condition only.
[1:03:56] It's reciprocal?
[1:03:57] Yes, that's right. She also has to take pleasure in my pleasure. Now, if you're taking pleasure in somebody else's pleasure and they're taking and not taking pleasure in your pleasure, then it's exploitive, right? They're just going to take until you get tired and break up. My wife loves to know what happens. I take pleasure in her enjoying that.
[1:04:28] Unnecessarily on the thing, but her reaction?
[1:04:31] Yeah, I mean, the fact that she's happy makes me happy.
[1:04:36] And that's how you deal with this non-coincidence of wants, the fact that people want different things at different times. Let's say that I really want to go hiking. well, my family cares about what makes me happy and so we'll go hiking. And if my daughter wants to go for a walk at 11 o'clock at night or my wife wants to watch a show I'm not particularly into, I'll do it. Because my happiness is to a large degree their happiness. And their happiness is to a large degree my happiness. You know, in the endless question that happens once every week or two, if we're going out for something to eat, where do we go to eat?
[1:05:29] That's sometimes a compromise.
[1:05:31] Well, no, here's the thing. It's never a compromise. Because a compromise has resentment built into it. You know, if my daughter really wants to eat, I don't know, whatever, sushi, I don't particularly feel like sushi. I'll go to sushi. Because my daughter's pleasure in eating the sushi makes my meal taste better.
[1:06:01] Oh yeah, I see, I see.
[1:06:02] If I really want a steak, my wife's a vegetarian, she'll come and have her salad and baked potato. Because she takes pleasure in me having the steak.
[1:06:19] I think I understand I mean.
[1:06:23] So why didn't your parents your father in particular why did he not take pleasure, in the pleasure that you would take in seeing a movie with him, I really don't know When your father is old, and you're middle-aged or whatever, your father's old, will he look back on his life and say, well, I'm sure glad I worked a couple of extra hours that day rather than go and see a movie with my son when he really was begging me to?
[1:07:08] I think he probably won't remember the extra hours.
[1:07:12] Well, it's stupid. That's why we feel sad for people like that. It's stupid.
[1:07:19] I mean, I have a lot of resentment towards my father. I mean, he used to do something really upset me, which is he wouldn't make you self-conscious.
[1:07:35] Yeah, go on. That's part of the spoon thing, right? So what do you mean?
[1:07:39] I mean, let's see, I have a recent example which really kind of clicked for me. My sister was making 15 years and me and my dad were going to dance with her, right? And he took his classes and he was kind of nervous, he was kind of closed for dancing. and I went there and the class was great I mean we took almost all the choreography on the first class and we recorded it or we always recorded at the end and I mean when he saw it the first thing he the only thing he said to me was you take too big of a step I was like oh okay it was my first class so he's.
[1:08:31] Uh very critical is that right.
[1:08:33] Yeah i mean it makes you conscious about the stuff i mean i didn't even thought about my steps i was just like having fun i was dancing with my sister we were just bonding i mean it was her moment and i was learning it was my first class and i knew that he also was angry because he used to do the big step and he looked at my video and the first thing he'd said was yeah, you have that. And I'm like Jesus.
[1:09:03] Okay, so can you think of things that your father took pleasure in because you took pleasure in them?
[1:09:12] No, I mean that's, I didn't have anything that he actually liked that I like. I mean, I got What about your mother?
[1:09:26] Can you think of the things that your mother took pleasure in because you took pleasure in them?
[1:09:41] Yeah, I guess I always have an interest in movies and books, and she incentivizes it. She would go to the movies, she would say, oh, books, go on, buy it, I will help you. And she would try to read it, something that I was reading to engage in conversation. I mean, she read the Jordan Peterson one, and we discussed it, and it was really good. and it was more of a relationship with her not saying she was perfect but she did have, okay if you enjoy that let's see what we can do about it, how can I facilitate it.
[1:10:30] And when did she if she has when did you find out about your sexuality.
[1:10:37] Um it was a day i was making a party at my house and uh one of my former friends was angry because uh everything's i didn't took the vaccine and she was really angry about that, and i think she told my mom to get back on me sorry your friend was really angry about that yes okay, and we had this party and we decided to go to a club and this friend was like no I don't want to go and she stayed talking to my mom and my dad, and at some time my dad had to leave and she just, started hammering my sexuality on my mom and my mom was like oh so your friend.
[1:11:29] Outed you to your mom.
[1:11:31] Yes because.
[1:11:32] She was angry that she didn't take the vaccine.
[1:11:34] Yes kind.
[1:11:36] Of friends of these.
[1:11:41] Later that night i mean i was kind of i mean i had a breakdown that day about, this because uh i had a lot of friends that disagree with that and i was just like sorry disagree with what with the vaccine stuff okay and i was just having a breakdown because i was like, yeah, you never check on me on how I am or, I mean, I could kill myself right now and, you didn't talk to me. You didn't check anything. I mean, you barely know about my life and like, and now you want to judge me?
[1:12:15] Sorry, who were you talking to in this scenario?
[1:12:18] I was talking to everyone at the party. I was a little bit drunk.
[1:12:21] Okay. Okay. And did you know that your friend had outed you to your mom?
[1:12:27] Didn't, she didn't tell me after she outed me for my, to my mom. I, we came back from the club. We were talking on the sofa, the couch, and she weirdly invited me to go live with her. And I didn't understand that at the moment until I wake up the next day. And my mom said she wanted to talk to me and I was like, yeah, what happened? and it should have been like, are you gay? Are you homosexual? I don't know. We just wake up. What's happening? But she was really concerned and then we had a talk.
[1:13:04] And what was she concerned about?
[1:13:07] She was concerned about my sexuality, about you know, homophobia or something like that.
[1:13:14] Oh, like whether you might be in danger?
[1:13:16] Yeah. I remember I told her I mean... I told her, uh, I'm pretty safe with the sexuality stuff, I'm more in danger with the vaccine stuff than the sexuality.
[1:13:26] Hmm. Alright. And did- did your father find out that day or since?
[1:13:34] No. No. I mean, I think I told him last week when I was really drunk, but I'm not quite sure.
[1:13:47] And your attraction to men has that been something from your earliest memories was it ever different.
[1:13:56] No i mean i did like a girl when i was four okay that's pretty.
[1:14:03] Early yeah yeah.
[1:14:03] Yeah but i my first sexual relationship with a man was when i was six.
[1:14:11] Sorry what now.
[1:14:12] When I was six it wasn't I mean sexual I mean it was kind of kissing and but you said we were both children a kid a kid I'm sorry we were six but we were both six oh.
[1:14:27] You were both six and you were kissing each other.
[1:14:30] Yeah a little bit more just playing with genitals and stuff. I mean, it was my first memory of that.
[1:14:41] And do you remember who initiated?
[1:14:44] I did.
[1:14:45] And what happened after that with regards to sexuality? After six?
[1:14:52] I don't know, but I became much more closed about it.
[1:14:57] No, I mean, did you have any other sexual experiences as a child?
[1:15:01] No, until, 2020, I guess. ah okay any other any anyway sorry translation problems i didn't have any more experience okay.
[1:15:15] Got it and the boy when you were six did you ever keep in touch with him or was he one of these neighborhood friends or people who came and went.
[1:15:24] Uh came and went i mean we we were friends we talked a little bit and after that uh but we just stopped i mean i nowadays looking back i just I just feel terrible about that because I'm the one who initiated.
[1:15:43] But how would you, in a sense, how would you even know what to do at the age of six?
[1:15:50] No, I mean, he...
[1:15:52] That genitals are for sexual pleasure or whatever. I mean, that's not common among six-year-olds.
[1:15:59] Yeah, I don't know how I knew that. I mean... So weird. But I started the whole thing. I mean, he wanted something from me. I was like, okay, let's play. And it felt so evil looking back.
[1:16:18] I'm sorry, say again?
[1:16:20] Yeah. By remembering this memory, I just feel like I was evil. You know, like, yeah, you want something? Okay, let's do something. Maybe you don't want to do, but I want to do.
[1:16:32] Ah, that's interesting. So tell me about the evil that you think of. What do you mean by that?
[1:16:38] I mean, he was like, yeah, can I see your Pokemon album or something? And I was like, yeah, let's go to the bathroom. room and I was like Jesus, looking back at me, Why would I act like that? Why would I do this to a kid?
[1:16:59] I mean you can look at my Pokemon if we do these sexual things or I guess quasi-sexual things at the age of six. So where would that kind of transaction stuff come from?
[1:17:14] I have no idea. I mean, really don't know.
[1:17:25] So you'd never seen sexuality before you'd never had any exposure to sexuality and then you're like, working sexuality to get what you want I mean that's for six that's pretty wild would you say.
[1:17:43] Yes I know I mean, it's fucking sorry it's really crazy.
[1:17:51] Yeah I.
[1:17:52] Don't know where it came from um, I mean, people used to ask me if I was abused. I don't think I was. I don't remember anything like that. Especially during my high school years, because I don't like people touching me or stuff like that.
[1:18:18] Well, that would be a symptom as well, right?
[1:18:22] Yeah. I mean, they asked me, and I was like, no.
[1:18:25] Honestly, so I'm trying to think at six. I went to boarding school when I was six. And I'm trying to think, if some kid wanted something of mine, I had a book of Guinness World Records, which is kind of cool, right? And he says, oh, I want to look at your Guinness Book of World Records. And I'd be like, you have to pay me. And for you, it was these quasi-sexual matters, but I'm trying to think what I've said that I'm trying to figure out at six, whether this kind of transactional stuff for...
[1:19:11] Yeah, just a transaction, but also sexual one.
[1:19:13] Right. Yeah, I'm just trying to think in terms of like, give me money, because it would never have crossed my mind.
[1:19:20] As a kid, yeah.
[1:19:21] We're here to be like, well, yeah, but we've got to look at each other's genitals. Be like, what?
[1:19:29] It's all evil. I don't know where it came from.
[1:19:32] Well, listen, I mean, we can keep saying the word evil, but you're six. Right? So it's not like you're making some big set of deep moral choices here, right? Did you have a sense that what you were doing or what you were asking for, I know this is tough to remember, it's like 15 years later or whatever, when you were doing it, if an adult had walked into the room when you guys were doing this quasi-sexual stuff at six, if an adult had walked into the room, how would you have felt, do you think?
[1:20:12] Oh yeah, we hid it.
[1:20:16] Okay, so it wouldn't be like if you were just, let's say you were just playing Lego and an adult walked in, you wouldn't feel bad. But this, you knew it would be kind of disapproved of or would be?
[1:20:26] Yeah, I didn't tell anyone in my life until I was, you know, 17, 18. I told a friend because it was something that I used to think about when I was drunk. And how long did this.
[1:20:44] Was it just a one-time thing or? How long did it go on for?
[1:20:49] It happens like three times. I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't tell anyone. So it means I knew it was wrong, right?
[1:21:03] Well, disapproved of, for sure, yeah.
[1:21:05] Yeah. yeah I never looked further into this I mean I don't know why would I try to do some transaction such as well so you.
[1:21:27] Did it a couple of times you said roughly in the same time frame.
[1:21:32] The same week probably Probably.
[1:21:34] Oh, the same way. Okay. And then what happened? Like, did you stop or did you feel bad or did he like resist or what happened?
[1:21:42] No, no, he didn't resist. He just stopped at me. I was like, yeah, here's the bowl, could just have it.
[1:21:50] Oh, so you didn't want to do it anymore? No.
[1:21:55] I guess so. I mean, I just gave him. I mean, we were doing that and I was like, yeah. That's bad.
[1:22:09] Sorry, I'm not sure. I can't follow your thoughts.
[1:22:11] I felt bad. I think I felt bad for asking for things back like that.
[1:22:18] I would say you felt bad for asking for this sort of sexual stuff in return for him looking at the whatever Pokemon thing?
[1:22:27] Yes, yes.
[1:22:27] Okay. What's also interesting about this is that you knew who to do it to or who to initiate it with. In other words, you didn't choose a kid who would have gone to his parents and his parents says, oh, what did you do today, right?
[1:22:49] Right.
[1:22:50] And he would say, oh, so-and-so, we touched each other's pee-pees, right?
[1:22:54] Right.
[1:22:55] So how do you think you knew that that boy wouldn't have done that? Because that's some pretty advanced skills, right?
[1:23:07] Because he didn't tell.
[1:23:08] Right?
[1:23:09] No, he didn't.
[1:23:10] Because if he'd have told, you probably would have heard about it, right?
[1:23:14] Yeah, I agree. There was going to be a pretty serious conversation.
[1:23:18] Right. So how did you know? How did you know? No. How did you manage to find that kid? May have only been one kid out of all of your friends. How did you manage to find that one kid who wouldn't tell?
[1:23:36] Really don't know. I mean, I'm not particularly smart or anything. I mean, just...
[1:23:45] Well, no, that's not an intelligence thing. Usually that's an experience thing. Now, you yourself, of course, I mean, there's no point trying to make up memories, right? I mean, that's not an empirical thing to do. Did you ever see in others inappropriate sexual activity or touching, or did any kid ever tell you about anything? It may not have been you directly, and it may be nothing. I'm just curious.
[1:24:20] At age? At six?
[1:24:23] Well, it would have to be before this stuff happened, right?
[1:24:26] Right. I don't know I was I think I saw some, nudity when I went to the video store I guess but that's the closest I can think of maybe something on TV.
[1:24:47] Sorry you saw like a movie with some not a pornography movie but a movie with sexual content is that right.
[1:24:53] Yes Yes.
[1:24:54] Okay.
[1:24:56] A few of those, I guess.
[1:24:58] Like, can they stop for sexual stuff?
[1:25:02] Sexual, you know, snakes on a plane?
[1:25:04] I don't know snakes on a plane. You mean the movie? Samuel L. Jackson?
[1:25:08] Yes, this one.
[1:25:10] Is there sexual stuff in there?
[1:25:12] Yes, there is one. I vividly remember it. I really like to watch the movie. I don't know if it was kind of uncomfortable.
[1:25:23] Were you watching the movie Snakes on a Plane before you were six?
[1:25:32] No, no, this was after, sorry.
[1:25:35] Okay, yeah, so I'm talking about, but what age were you when you watched this movie?
[1:25:41] Probably 10, 11.
[1:25:46] And I assume that there's pretty intense, frightening scenes in it, and you're saying there's also sexual activity?
[1:25:53] Yes.
[1:25:55] Are you at a computer? Can you just look me up? What's the rating of snakes on a plane?
[1:26:01] I remember in my country it was 60.
[1:26:05] Okay, so... I remember... I mean, that's virtually adult, right? So it's virtually restricted. And how did you watch it at the age of 10 or so?
[1:26:16] I rented it at the video store. I went there. it's like I don't remember exactly how it happened but I really like well how do you get to rent.
[1:26:28] I mean you're a 10 year old how do you get to rent a movie that's not supposed to be rented to anyone who's not 16.
[1:26:33] My parents rented it for me.
[1:26:35] Oh so your parents went and rented the virtually adult movie for you when you were 10 yeah, oh what why Why?
[1:26:50] I don't know. They didn't, It was into a phase where, like, movies with animals, and they just picked up a bunch of those.
[1:27:03] Well, no, but, I mean, they would sit down and watch it with you, right? Well, first of all, they would notice that it was 16 or plus, so they wouldn't, like, you wouldn't rent that for a 10-year-old, right? But then, even if they did somehow, it got past that, then they would sit down and watch the movie with you, right? Because you don't just drop some movie in front of your kid and hope it's appropriate, right?
[1:27:22] Right.
[1:27:25] So they sat down and watched it with you and they didn't cut it off? Oh, they didn't watch it with you?
[1:27:31] No, I watched it alone.
[1:27:32] Okay Right And you said you watched it like a bunch of times?
[1:27:40] Yes So you're like.
[1:27:41] Rent me that snake movie again and they're like, sounds good.
[1:27:46] Sounds good Huh.
[1:27:50] So you were pretty unprotected as a kid, right?
[1:27:57] Yeah in the sense yes it was uh there was also some overprotection on other stuff like what um, i don't know i mean they weren't really vigilant about everything i did when i was kind of in high school when they realized they don't have as much control over me so, for instance i would I would go to a movie. I usually turn off my cell phone, right? My dad sent me a text in the middle of the movie. He wouldn't arrive, right?
[1:28:34] Yeah.
[1:28:34] So that when I turn on my phone, he would know. Oh. He would receive a notification. Oh, that it's been read, right? Yeah. No, that's been received, not read.
[1:28:46] Been received, okay.
[1:28:47] Even if I didn't read the message, he would know the movie is over and he would call me. almost instantly being like yeah can i go can i pick you up and i'm like okay, and how old were you at this time uh 14 15 it happens until it happened until 16 i guess.
[1:29:10] Got it okay and what happened at 16 he just let you roam around more and when did you start drinking heavily? Like the sort of blackout stuff?
[1:29:19] The blackout stuff? Okay. They stopped this protection. I mean... Oh, you know, when I stopped texting them that the movie was starting. So they didn't know when to send the text. And then, yeah, that pretty much ended it. And I also would just turn my phone off. So I would keep it there. But the heavy drinking, really have drinking started when I entered college.
[1:29:51] Okay, so you didn't drink in high school or anything?
[1:29:54] No, no, just, I mean, I had drink before, but nothing like that. I mean, just, yeah, I taste vodka, I taste whiskey, but nothing. Yeah, let's drink to forget. I mean, just one or two cups, maybe.
[1:30:11] Right, okay, got it.
[1:30:13] Just like child, teenage stuff, I guess.
[1:30:18] Right, okay, got it.
[1:30:22] Then I move into college and things start getting a little crazy I guess.
[1:30:33] You mean with the drinking?
[1:30:35] Yeah I mean we would, we would go out just to drink vodka in a square in a square park like that and And that was pretty much all the interaction I had with a friend at the time. We were just drinking and that was it. I remember that was also the moment I started looking for sex again after all those years.
[1:31:09] Sorry, all the years. What do you mean?
[1:31:12] Uh i mean, i started looking for a relationship people to actually have sex with it was right around this time that i started to heavily drink.
[1:31:26] No no i get that i understand what looking for sex means but you said after so many years and how many years was that that you had not been looking for sex.
[1:31:39] I mean, I was referring to the stuff when I was six.
[1:31:45] Okay, I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. So from like six to 19 or whatever, 18 or 19, right? You didn't pursue anything. Okay, got it.
[1:31:55] And then the heavy drinking started.
[1:31:59] And why do you think the heavy drinking started?
[1:32:03] You know, I mean, I just...
[1:32:06] Did you enjoy it?
[1:32:07] Did you like it? Yes, I mean, a lot. I just felt like I didn't have to worry about everything all the time when I drink.
[1:32:22] Oh, so it's like anxiety reduction?
[1:32:25] Oh, yes, absolutely.
[1:32:26] Oh, and also, if you're plagued with this self-consciousness stuff, that helps too, right?
[1:32:32] Yes, I did. I remember when I first got my job, I would have to do some phone calls in the middle of a lot of people, and I got really nervous. I went to work drunk a few times just to make it easier to call.
[1:32:49] Right, okay. Yeah.
[1:32:50] I used to...
[1:32:52] Did your mother know... You're closer to your mother than your father, is that right?
[1:32:59] Yes.
[1:32:59] And did your mother know about your self-consciousness and your nervousness and so on?
[1:33:08] This time she did. Because I stopped doing presentations and I entered college and I'm studying law. And there is a lot of presentation involved in that. And I just wasn't making any presentation. I used to just.
[1:33:30] Wouldn't she have some sense of your character having I don't know given birth to you and raised you, I mean she shouldn't have to read these tea leaves if I'm not doing too many presentations I mean doesn't she know the strengths and weaknesses and advantages and disadvantages you have because she raised you.
[1:33:51] No we didn't have deep conversations at my house.
[1:33:56] Okay, you shouldn't need deep conversations. I mean, you're not a parent, so I'm going to pull the parent card, I'm afraid.
[1:34:04] Oh, right.
[1:34:04] You're supposed to know your kids. Right?
[1:34:14] Right.
[1:34:18] It's not the kid's job to tell you. It's your job to know as a parent.
[1:34:28] I mean, I guess as long as I wasn't bothering anyone, they wouldn't care much.
[1:34:36] Okay, so not particularly close to either your mother or your father.
[1:34:40] No. No, but my father is far away.
[1:34:45] Okay. Now, did your mother, I assume that she knew that your father was rejecting some of your invitations to like go to movies and stuff, right? And do you know if your mother intervened with him and said, listen, you gotta, you gotta go, right? I mean, your son wants to go someplace with you. You can't always say no, that's really bad.
[1:35:06] I knew they had discussions about it. We would talk about how it was important for him, but for me, for him to be close to me. But he will be like, yeah, we'll look into it. And we just never did anything.
[1:35:25] Well, he, I mean, your dad's in charge, right?
[1:35:28] Yes.
[1:35:29] And what's your relationship like with your parents now?
[1:35:33] Pretty much non-existent. I mean, we live together, but we don't talk. I mean, I hate being at home right now. I'm not home. I mean, because I knew that if I did that, there was going to be some screaming about something or the dog, or they will open the door and talk to me.
[1:35:54] What would they scream about?
[1:35:56] I don't know. They, it depends. Normally my mom and my father would fight over something and that's really early on but they can if with the stupidest of things like i don't know my sister these days they started having a whole argument because my sister was having an attitude and i just remember like listen to her to my dad screaming and shouting in the room, and.
[1:36:30] What was sort of things would your dad say.
[1:36:34] I know she would be like you're at my house my place and you keep giving me this attitude and you don't stop looking at your phone and you don't respect us and I was like and she started crying went to her room.
[1:36:50] And what was your mom doing during this.
[1:36:54] During this discussion pretty much nothing I just know that after my sister left they started talking about this about my sister. About how that's not how you're supposed to educate a kid. But still, I mean, I don't feel like my mom has much of a voice like dad.
[1:37:18] Oh, like you don't have a voice with your boyfriends?
[1:37:23] Yeah, pretty much like that.
[1:37:25] So she modeled not having needs, not having preferences, and your dad just bullied her? Or if she wanted something, he'd be like, let me think about it, and it wouldn't happen?
[1:37:37] Yeah, he was pretty cruel about it. But I used to, I remember one time, it was like seven, eight. My mom took me to the mall and she found a guy friend. I mean, some dude that she used to know when she was at college. And they talked for like 10 minutes. And then we arrived home after that. And she told my dad that. And I remember just explosion of anger from him. I remember she picking me up and started running because it was really mad. I think I think she even got a knife or something my god a kitchen a simple a simple knife I mean just uh the ones we used to eat because she was like yeah he's going to.
[1:38:19] Ward him off.
[1:38:20] Yes oh I remember our old fridge has like marks from his fist on there because I mean he never hit her or anything, but she did it.
[1:38:33] So, what are you telling me at the beginning you've got nothing to complain about?
[1:38:41] Monetary sense?
[1:38:44] What are you talking about? I mean, your dad was a screamer, your mother was an enabler, you were left unattended with a six year old boy you were given terrifying highly sexualized adult movies at the age of ten, your father punches appliances and your mother pulls knives, I don't know what that bit at the beginning was where you give me all this nonsense about, yeah, it's pretty good, nothing to complain.
[1:39:31] I'm sorry, it's just hard to...
[1:39:36] Did you know that this wasn't true back at the beginning of our convo? Or did you genuinely believe, yeah, it's pretty good?
[1:39:46] No, I mean... It's hard, I mean, I'm... i'm still grateful for.
[1:39:56] No no no did you know at the beginning of our conversation that you weren't telling me the truth.
[1:40:04] Yes.
[1:40:06] So why would you waste my time like this? What's the point of calling me up? It's like going to the doctor and not telling them where it hurts. I don't understand. If you knew that you were lying to me at the beginning...
[1:40:23] I know it was that bad.
[1:40:25] No, but what's the point? Why would you want to call with me? I mean, I'm not mad. I'm just genuinely baffled.
[1:40:36] you know if i take my car and i tell the mechanic the the brakes are fine it's the problem is with the clutch right and then he disassembles the clutch for two hours there's no problems with it and then i say oh actually no it's the brakes be like well what's the point of all that, except i don't charge at least the guy would you'd pay for it right i don't charge so i'm trying to i'm trying to figure out like i ask you about your childhood and you tell me it was fine?
[1:41:07] I had anger issues and stuff like that, but it wasn't fine.
[1:41:16] Yeah, you're not responding to what I'm saying. I don't know what conversation you're having in your head, but it's got nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Why would you tell me? And I said at the beginning, it's like somebody says, my arm is broken. I said, what happened? Nothing. Right? You grow up with no needs and you've got a violent father, a screaming, physically aggressive, dangerous father, a mother who has to pull a knife to protect herself because she spent 10 minutes talking with an old friend. And you know, I mean, this isn't like these are memories that just popped into your head, right? So, what's the purpose of not telling me that stuff until, like, what have we been talking now? We've been talking, like, for almost two hours. And I have to keep asking these questions to try and figure out what happened with your childhood. Which you knew all this stuff at the beginning.
[1:42:19] I guess I just tried to shut it off.
[1:42:22] No, no, you said, no, you knew this stuff at the beginning, right? You said you knew it.
[1:42:26] Yes I did but I just never talked to anyone about it I mean.
[1:42:35] Sorry you had a psychologist didn't you.
[1:42:38] Yes but we didn't get much into childhood not this particular kind of sorry.
[1:42:45] You didn't tell any of this stuff to your therapist or your psychologist.
[1:42:50] Um not the knife I fight, no, not this one.
[1:42:58] What about your father punching the fridge?
[1:43:00] No, I didn't. I didn't mention it.
[1:43:04] What about the sex stuff when you were six?
[1:43:07] Yeah, that I talked about a little bit.
[1:43:17] So you don't know your motives for hiding this stuff from me, right? I mean you're new to you're not new to these call-in shows right you've listened to this show for a while yeah.
[1:43:39] A few years all.
[1:43:41] Right so of course it's annoying you understand that right because you know I have a certain amount of hours left in this world and I feel like I just wasted some because we had to go beating around the bush. This is something you knew was in plain sight. But I'm trying to figure out, so what would be the motivation for that? Because either I get to the... Sorry, go ahead.
[1:44:13] Maybe if I talked about it, there were going to be an intervention or something?
[1:44:17] A what?
[1:44:19] Intervention.
[1:44:19] What does that mean?
[1:44:21] Uh, I mean, They came after my dad. There was going to be trouble if I talked about it.
[1:44:33] Oh, trouble how? You mean between you and your parents?
[1:44:37] Yeah. I mean, he would get really angry.
[1:44:43] At the fact that you had talked about it or that you might talk about it with him?
[1:44:47] That I might talk about it with someone else.
[1:44:51] Okay.
[1:44:52] Because I mean, I remember saying...
[1:44:54] Hang on. So then if you are not in a position where you can tell the truth, why did you want to call? Why wouldn't you wait until you were in a position where you could tell the truth?
[1:45:05] No, I just felt desperate at the moment. I mean, not at the moment. As I said in my... I mean, I just... kind of everything just fell apart the last few weeks. I mean...
[1:45:26] You mean because of the man, the six-month relationship?
[1:45:30] No, not just that. I mean, I've just been having real problems with my friends. I stopped talking to them. I don't know about my future.
[1:45:42] Do you mean the friends that you get blackout drunk with?
[1:45:46] Yes.
[1:45:47] Right. Well, good riddance for that, right? Seriously, they're not your friends if you're half-poisoning yourself to death with alcohol. Are they?
[1:46:01] No. I mean, no, they aren't.
[1:46:08] Are you still seeing a psychologist at all?
[1:46:16] I stopped going to that one because she talked to my mom And she told her that I wasn't gay, actually. She told her that it was just a problem with my father. And that maybe if we treated that, that maybe I wouldn't like men.
[1:46:39] So, I don't know anything about, of course, the laws in your country or the professional standards. standards but i'm kind of surprised that a therapist could just go and talk about the sessions with your mom i.
[1:46:52] Mean uh my my father was really anxious about the therapy stuff uh he really wanted to end it like it was if it was a cold or something and he was like yeah he's taking too long i mean i wanted to and then he told my mother to go talk to her and no but but there's supposed to be privacy in therapy.
[1:47:13] Isn't there?
[1:47:14] Yes. Uh, there, I mean, even if it were true, it lost completely trust on her because of that.
[1:47:23] I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm honestly quite shocked.
[1:47:30] She would say, like, it's confused.
[1:47:36] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you're an adult, right? So I don't know how a therapist goes around talking about your therapy with your mom.
[1:47:48] And then I just called the place where I did a test for autism or something. And I was like, yeah, I need a therapy, therapist.
[1:48:00] Oh, they said you need a therapist?
[1:48:05] I think I really need a therapist. And then I just called them. I was like, yeah, do you have somebody? And then they gave me this guy that I was like, I don't want any interaction with my family. It's just me and you, and we will try to figure things out.
[1:48:24] Oh, that's what you said to the new therapist?
[1:48:26] Yes.
[1:48:27] Okay. So are you saying someone...
[1:48:30] But we are still establishing a relationship. I mean, he's still learning about stuff. I mean, we have like three appointments.
[1:48:40] Okay, but you are seeing someone now. Okay. And how do you think, I mean, when I think about why someone does something, especially something like this, right? I mean, this only works if you tell the truth, right? So, because I don't have any way of verifying anything, right? You can tell me you're calling from Mars. I'm like, yeah, 50-50, right? So if you have a feeling in your life that is not fully conscious, a lot of times what you'll do is you'll provoke that feeling in other people. So in misrepresenting your childhood to me and then only telling me about your father's violence almost two hours into the conversation.
[1:49:34] It gives me a sense of frustration and helplessness. And I'm going to assume that you're feeling that. And then you're provoking, that's kind of passive aggression, right? You're provoking that in me rather than experience it yourself. So then I feel frustrated and helpless, maybe angry, and you can distance yourself from that, but you're actually distancing yourself from your own feelings, if that makes sense?
[1:50:01] Yeah, I guess that's what I'm doing now.
[1:50:04] I think so. I don't know for sure, but I think so. Now, I don't obviously want to be part of you distancing yourself from your own feelings. So what is the major or the most major thing that you think my feedback might be helpful on?
[1:50:32] I just need a moment to have.
[1:50:34] My guess would be, I don't want to tell you, but my guess would be, if you grew up with an enabling mother and a violent father, then for you, to be assertive, would feel like risking death.
[1:50:56] Yeah, I mean, we never... there wasn't much of discussion so it was yeah that's it it's going to be like that yeah.
[1:51:08] Because it was like probably over an hour ago that I said what happened when you would disagree with your parents or your parents and you had different desires right and you know I got some frou-frou stuff but you didn't say well my father was very violent, But he was, right?
[1:51:32] Yes.
[1:51:34] And so for you then to have needs that go against what your father wants would be very, very dangerous and therefore very, very scary. And you would not be assertive, right? Because remember I said we're all born assertive. So you would not be assertive because being assertive around your father could provoke a murderous rage, or at least it would feel that way as a child. Does that make sense? it does so you're scared from violence and you have to be self-conscious because you always have to be observing yourself to see if you're provoking your father, and your mother won't protect you by getting you to a safe place so you can't trust her much either did your mother ever get you in trouble with your father like she'd say wait till your father gets home or she'd go and tell your father something you did and then he'd get angry?
[1:52:30] No.
[1:52:31] No, okay. So she didn't directly provoke him using your behavior, but she also didn't get you to safety either, right?
[1:52:38] I mean, I remember there was a discussion, divorce at one point, but they didn't move through. And I remember, I mean, that was a moment that my father was violent with me. Because my mom started crying, She left the house because of something my father said to her. And then he wanted me to help him find my mom. And it was high school. I always told him.
[1:53:05] He wanted you to help you what? Your mom?
[1:53:07] Found my mom. We didn't know where she went.
[1:53:10] Oh, find your mom. It was the church. Yeah.
[1:53:12] Yes. And I remember telling him I wasn't going to help, that I hope they divorced. And I remember he just threw me on the ground. she just yeah he just threw me pulled me by the shoulders and threw me.
[1:53:29] And how old were you then.
[1:53:31] Uh Fifteen, I guess. Sixteen.
[1:53:40] Is he a very big man?
[1:53:43] Yes. I mean, large one. Not in height.
[1:53:47] I'm sorry?
[1:53:48] Not in height. I mean, size, yes.
[1:53:52] Like fat?
[1:53:53] Yes.
[1:53:54] Okay.
[1:53:55] I was fat, I mean, until a few months ago.
[1:54:00] Uh-huh.
[1:54:01] My whole family has weight trouble.
[1:54:05] Right. maybe that's why your father punched the fridge that's where his fatness comes from, now I'm sorry.
[1:54:18] No no no I mean go ahead it wasn't relevant.
[1:54:23] I'm really sorry for all of this it's terrible and was your father do you remember much violence from your father when you were younger I mean threw you to the ground when you were 15 or 16 anything younger.
[1:54:34] No just uh I can't think of anything. I mean, just shouting, screaming, breaking stuff sometimes. I remember once he... Oh, God. We were having an argument, and the family wasn't talking, and I remember just him. He just smashed the cup and said that maybe the whole family should be dead.
[1:55:04] Oh, God. How old were you then?
[1:55:10] 14, I think.
[1:55:11] 14?
[1:55:12] Yes. There was also this time where my mom found him. He used to tell her that he would... I mean, that he would go travel. And he was just in the same city. He would just rent a hotel and be there. Just because he doesn't want to be with us. And I remember that was probably when I was like, yeah, I don't think I really like him much.
[1:55:48] What did he say about family death directly, or what did he say specifically?
[1:55:54] About what, I'm sorry?
[1:55:56] When he was thumping the table and saying about the family would be better off dead, or what did he say exactly?
[1:56:03] He was frustrated about something, I guess. as no one was talking and I started arguing with him we were just sitting on the couch and we were eating and I don't remember what started the fight, I just remembered it was such a shocking thing to say I was like, Jesus Christ what did he say? he said that maybe we would be better off, dead, I mean I mean, not that we're just not connected, not as a family. Like maybe we just don't quite remember.
[1:56:45] Might as well be dead for all we're connected or?
[1:56:48] Yes. Might as well be dead. I guess that's the closest I can get.
[1:56:53] Right. Well, and I assume that the family knew that your father was in a bad mood and that's why it was hard to talk.
[1:57:01] Yeah. Yeah. I remember one time he got really angry with me I was using his computer and I checked the history and there was he's trying to talk to other women, I was like you were trying to do that and he was like no I wasn't I was like yes you were this is your computer I can see your search history, and he got really angry for this shouting, and then you.
[1:57:32] Updating you end up dating a man who's a cheater right.
[1:57:35] Yeah I mean he tried cheating on my mom I think just failed it.
[1:57:43] Because he's so fat and unpleasant.
[1:57:46] Yeah I guess it was something like that because I knew he was having conversations with women and I also knew I was a very curious kid and I remember looking at his phone and there was a lot of pornography.
[1:58:04] And how old were you then?
[1:58:09] Probably 14 also. I mean, it was... When I started investigating into him, I stopped trusting him.
[1:58:23] And are your parents affectionate with each other?
[1:58:27] No, I mean, I've seen them kiss only in New Year's as a ritual or something, but I never saw them do something just them or go out or be really connected.
[1:58:45] Right. Right. So, it's not hard to imagine why you'd end up serving emotionally cold and distant people, right? And feeling like you couldn't assert your own needs.
[1:59:06] Right.
[1:59:11] And being too prone to have to forgive and not being able to stand up for yourself or not expecting people to think about your feelings and your preferences and your needs.
[1:59:27] Yes.
[1:59:29] And I really, really sympathize with all of that, my friend. I really do. I'm so sorry. It's just awful and appalling. And I'm just sorry, sorry for all of it. It's just terrible. I'm so sorry. It's just awful. I can't picture it. I mean, why your mother wouldn't say to your dad, yo, rage guy, go take some anger management classes. It's too much. What are you doing?
[1:59:56] She did. he went to a psychologist like two appointments and then he got angry and just stopped going and then we actually did family therapy because I told him I wasn't going to go alone, and he really thinks I was the problem there that I was kind of broken I mean he used to call me, I'm sorry say again he used to call me a weirdo that I behaved like a weirdo, that I would walk like a robot.
[2:00:30] Yeah, because it's totally done with the punch fridges. That's not weird at all. And what happened in family therapy?
[2:00:42] Psychology was just that one. I mean, I have been to a lot of psychologists and that one was, mostly focused on my future in the sense of what you're going to do in your profession, what you're going to do to make money, you want to do that. It's the focus. I mean, the therapy was precisely making me want to, you know, learn what I like.
[2:01:11] So more like a guidance counselor. I mean, it's funny because you've been to all these therapists and your family's been to therapists and nobody seems to have made the connection between your adult life and the violence you experienced as a child.
[2:01:29] I mean, never. It would just be like, autistic. I mean, she wasn't the first one. I remember I had a psychology that told my mom I might have, psychosis, you know, like a psychopath. No empathy.
[2:01:53] I mean, you seem, obviously I can't diagnose anyone and I And I can't disagree with any diagnosis that, you know, I wouldn't. But you seem to be feeling some things about yourself and your childhood at the moment, right? I mean, I can't see you, but I can hear it in your voice that there seems to be some real sorrow and passion there.
[2:02:13] Yes.
[2:02:15] So that's good, isn't it? Because you deserved love as a child. You deserved comfort. You deserved protection. You deserved people to take delight in your company, to enjoy your presence, to look forward to you being there.
[2:02:32] Remember I told you at the beginning that I think that my father knew about my sexuality? I was drunk at that moment. I just remember just raging at him. I was throwing up at the bathroom. excuse myself from the table because it was my sister's birthday, and I was just throwing up and he came there shouting about how I ruined everything I'll look at my state and I was just like yeah fuck you you hate me I hate you get out of here you, Yeah, we're not talking at the moment.
[2:03:18] And you and your mom as well? Are you having some conversations with her?
[2:03:22] We had some about this that night that I was really drunk. But it wasn't about the stuff I said. She was like, yeah, you also did this and that. I was like, mom, please stop.
[2:03:36] Oh, she was blaming you for the effects of your behavior alone?
[2:03:40] Yeah, she was just like, yeah, you also did that. You go talk to the DJ and you started talking about some stupid shit about money and stuff. And she was also saying about how if she was with my friends, she wouldn't talk to me anymore. Because during the night, I mean, I was really ashamed because I was running up and my friends came to help. They were like, please don't. Just get out. And then they started screaming and cussing. And I just got really upset that day.
[2:04:18] Right.
[2:04:19] Yeah, I guess I was really an asshole with them.
[2:04:24] Well, it seems to me that certainly with regard to your parents, you're far more sinned against than sinning. and i guess they've never said to you how can we make this better how can we make this relationship work better for you what can we change what can we do is it always just blaming you.
[2:04:47] Yeah i remember, once i tried to with father i actually thanked him for something My uncle from the part of it passed away. We were really close to him. And I remember when he passed away, me and him were close, was close to my dad. And I remember I didn't talk to my father about his death, but I was really grieving. And I remember he asked me to have this gasket to the crypt. And that's something that probably wants most of me. But I really needed to do that. I really need to have disclosure. But. I'm sorry. I'm just... Everything's confused.
[2:05:57] Right.
[2:06:00] I mean, I started developing this relationship with my uncle, right? And he passed away right so he died.
[2:06:10] Oh, when did that happen?
[2:06:13] First year of college. He started doing law because he was addicted to cocaine.
[2:06:19] Oh, gosh.
[2:06:20] He was a lawyer, and I was visiting him in rehab and all that. And I... He was losing money. His wife was divorcing. And I was like, yeah, but I'm going to do law and we're going to go and be lawyers together and everything's going to be fine. you're going to be on your feet.
[2:06:45] To be honest, I was wondering about the source of the desire to do law, because it doesn't seem to fit in too well with some of the nervousness and so on that you have. But I... You're a catalyst, right?
[2:06:57] I always wanted to do, cinema or psychology or economics. I don't...
[2:07:08] Right.
[2:07:09] But I ended up in law. I was like, yeah. You chose it.
[2:07:13] In part because of your uncle who killed himself right.
[2:07:15] Yeah was there.
[2:07:18] Something specific that happened that may have triggered suicide or was it a slow.
[2:07:24] Oh yes there was i mean uh he wasn't i mean he was a second degree uncle uh he was we were close by choice i mean not family and uh he had a relapse of cocaine and his wife was divorcing him and he called his dad, asking for help and he told him to kill himself his father told your uncle.
[2:08:09] To kill Like your uncle's father told him to kill himself?
[2:08:13] Yes.
[2:08:14] Wow.
[2:08:15] That he wouldn't help him anymore. And my uncle called my dad, asking for help. This was like two days before he did it. And my dad just... He tried talking to him, I guess. Don't do that. But I always felt that that was... It was important we can do.
[2:08:49] I'm sorry, say again?
[2:08:51] Or that we could do to help him, other than talk.
[2:08:55] Well, how long had he been an addict for?
[2:09:00] 80 years, I guess.
[2:09:03] 18 years?
[2:09:05] I mean, yeah, 18.
[2:09:10] Right, and he had kids, is that right?
[2:09:13] Yeah, I mean, I'm really close to his son.
[2:09:17] Right. So as an addict of 18 years, he would have put people through a lot, right? Like a lot of pain, a lot of chaos, and exposed them to some significant dangers, right? Maybe driving while high, or he owes debts to criminals and they come to his house. It's a really dangerous life, being a drug addict, right? Right. So, you know, maybe he just, I'm not saying there's anything right, and certainly his father shouldn't have said that, but he just may have bled dry all the goodwill that could have been left over.
[2:09:55] Yeah, I know.
[2:09:57] I assume as a lawyer, he would, you know, have access to some money and have done some rehab and stuff like that, right?
[2:10:05] Yeah, he's from another city, but we were always talking about all kinds of trouble, and he did, for a while, a good rehab, but the money ran out. and uh yeah his wife just said that's it um she found cocaine after in the garage and then it was she felt like yeah that's it we were divorcing and that's the week where everything happened well.
[2:10:42] And i suppose maybe then you have this idea that if you are assertive and do act to protect yourself someone's going to kill himself, Because his wife was like, no, I'm done with it. You're back on cocaine? Forget it. I'm done. So she's assertive. And then he kills himself.
[2:11:04] Yes.
[2:11:05] So you have the fear of assertiveness leading to death, maybe from your father. And then you have this instance where the wife of the uncle is assertive and he kills himself.
[2:11:17] Yeah, I brought my uncle up because, I mean, I never had a relationship with my father. and I started to develop one with him. I mean, especially with his son, I mean, we were really close and when things started to look, yeah, we're going to go, everything went to shit.
[2:11:39] Sorry. Sorry. And you don't have to give me any details, of course, but is it possible that your uncle just accidentally overdosed or was it, you don't have to tell me details, but was it very clearly a suicide? side?
[2:11:51] I mean, yeah, There is a debate that maybe he was murdered, but I mean, everybody knew he was depressed.
[2:12:06] Why would he be murdered? Like drug money or something?
[2:12:10] Yes.
[2:12:11] Okay.
[2:12:12] And it was a headshot to me.
[2:12:17] Okay.
[2:12:17] He had a gun and no one found the gun. I mean, it was very strange.
[2:12:24] He shot himself, but nobody found the gun?
[2:12:27] Yeah, because he shot himself in the middle of the road. I mean, he stopped the car, burned the car, shot himself. And then a soy truck came, saw the fire and crashed it. And then people came in to loot it, everything.
[2:12:50] Oh, so somebody might have just taken the gun, right?
[2:12:52] Yes, because we didn't find his cell phone also.
[2:12:56] Right, right, okay.
[2:12:58] wow, every street wow yeah I mean I really have a problem with suicides I mean at least make it look like an accident, so that people aren't so tortured but that's just to me the obvious suicide is like an act of rage that's just I find it very contemptible and really destructive I mean if you decide you don't want to keep on living I think it's a bad call but at least don't, traumatize everyone else with an obvious suicide. Like, just find a way to make it look like an accident.
[2:13:33] Yeah, it was also the time I started drinking a little and then that happened and I, the skull went all in.
[2:13:41] Right.
[2:13:41] And I would drink, cry and talk about him. I remember one time that I drank a lot and I tried talking to my parents about his death. I just don't want to talk about it. They just say, yeah, he loves you.
[2:14:02] Do they seem to be particularly upset about his death?
[2:14:07] Yes. Especially my mom. My dad, I... My dad was upset when they grew up together, but... you know my feelings with my father i tried to when he died about the memory and everything and i was like i didn't get much of an answer, you'll be like yeah he was a good guy and i mean.
[2:14:41] No no i mean he wasn't a good guy i mean for sure right i mean he was being addicted to drugs.
[2:14:49] I was supposed to say no.
[2:14:50] I mean sorry I mean he may have had positive qualities I'm not saying he didn't, but you can't just label him a good guy right I mean it's horrible for his children I.
[2:14:58] Don't think he was a good guy my dad used to say that.
[2:15:02] No I know I'm just saying that I'm just wanting to be clear about my perspective on that, alright so here's my sort of final thoughts if this makes any sense I'm really glad you're seeing someone and obviously if you do feel really upset and, you know, whatever, I hope, you know, please promise you'll call your therapist, you'll call the helpline and so on, right? Will you make that promise to me, please?
[2:15:27] I do.
[2:15:28] Thank you. Thank you. Now, you have every right to be in a relationship with people who care about you and want you to be happy. And for them to take pleasure in your happiness. Now, the temptation will be to either exploit or be exploited. So either Either you focus on their happiness at your loss, or they focus on your happiness at your loss. But you've got to find those people who want to make you as happy as you want to make them. Does that make sense?
[2:15:58] Because I just don't know how to find them.
[2:16:02] Well, the way that you find them is you have standards that you're willing to uphold. hold. So if someone says to you, I don't believe in good and evil, what do you say?
[2:16:19] Yeah.
[2:16:20] Hey, man, it's been real, but our values are so out of whack, I can't even explain it.
[2:16:30] Yeah. I mean, I'm talking to you.
[2:16:33] If somebody says, if you say, I want you to be my lover, and they say, I don't like being touched, you can sympathize with that, but say, look, that's not what I'm looking for. I mean if you tell your boyfriends do you tell your boyfriends about your childhood at all?
[2:16:57] I never had the opportunity I mean.
[2:16:59] No no no no come on don't try you dated one guy for a year and a half another guy for six months what do you mean you never had the opportunity you said you speak every day sometimes right?
[2:17:14] Yeah, the last one, I kind of talked about it.
[2:17:17] No, no, you chose not to.
[2:17:19] Yes.
[2:17:20] I'm not mad at you, but let's be accurate. You had the opportunity. Nobody can prevent you from saying these things. Why would they stick a toilet plunger in your face? You chose not to, and whatever, whether that was a good or bad decision, I don't know, but let's not go with I never had the opportunity, because you certainly did, right? I mean, you could have said, here's what happened in my childhood. now they might have hung up on you or whatever i don't know but you certainly had the opportunity is that fair to say yeah so, sorry i wasn't sure if you're gonna say more there so i.
[2:17:58] Was just trying to think i mean how to say it about my childhood. I mean, I never stopped to think so much about that until now.
[2:18:13] Okay.
[2:18:14] I think it's...
[2:18:15] No, come on. You're an intelligent young man. You listen to these call-in shows, right? Is that right?
[2:18:29] Yes. Every day, almost.
[2:18:31] Okay, so you listen to these call-in shows, and you're telling me that you don't think your childhood was important enough to think about, there's no connection between your childhood and your adulthood. This is what these call-in shows are mostly about.
[2:18:44] Yeah, I don't usually think about myself in this. I mean... It's just something that I, I don't know, sorry.
[2:19:02] But you understand that you had access to the information about the effects of childhood on adulthood because you've listened to many of these call-in shows.
[2:19:15] Yes, I did.
[2:19:19] So, my point is that the reason why we tell people about our childhoods is we're testing their capacity for empathy. I mean, in part, right? Not just empathy like, I'm sorry you had a bad childhood, that can certainly happen. But what I mean is that if I say to someone, I was raised with violence, right? Aggression, screamers or whatever, right? Then what I'm doing is I'm saying to this person, I have a vulnerability. And that vulnerability is whatever, whatever, being threatened or screamed at or whatever, right? People being violent in my environment, whatever. For you, it might be something like that, right? So now you've given someone power over you, right? Like if you say to someone, oh man, my thigh, it really hurts when I touch it here, right? Now if they jam their thumb into it, what are they? They're a sadist. Whereas if they say, oh, I'll make sure not to touch you there on your thigh. Then they're kind, right? So when you tell people about your childhood, you're saying, this is what I'm vulnerable to. And if they then say, oh, I'm really glad you told me what you're vulnerable to so that I can use it to control and exploit you, well, then you get the hell out as quickly as humanly possible. Does that make sense?
[2:20:48] And I just want to say something. Uh, Talking to you made me realize, I mean, not realize, but see how much stuff there is deep about this, some unresolved stuff, some unresolved things I have with my family.
[2:21:13] Yes, I'm sorry. I'm not sure why you're telling me that.
[2:21:17] I mean, I guess I'm just thanking you.
[2:21:21] Well, no, I appreciate that. But the way that you thank me is not interrupt me in the middle of an important thought. To tell me something that I already know, which is that there's stuff unresolved about your childhood. It's almost like an interruption, so I don't continue, if that makes sense. No, that's fine. That's fine.
[2:21:35] This way, I just do sometimes my head things.
[2:21:41] Yeah, I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying that I appreciate the thought, but I'm still trying to get the thought across. So, you tell people your vulnerabilities. and then they if they're good people they will absolutely make sure that they do not use your vulnerabilities against you, right so if you imagine some deadbeat relative and you say i really care about helping the poor and then he comes over crying and says i'm poor you've got to help me then he's taken your your vulnerabilities, your morals, and he's trying to use them to exploit you.
[2:22:30] And so, you know, you can't have that in your life, in my opinion. It's very destructive. So you tell people about your childhood, and you say, I was raised by very selfish people, and then they know, not that they then have to sacrifice themselves for you, but they know that for you to trust and care about them, they really have to be sensitive to your thoughts and preferences and needs and wants. Now, you, of course, should be the same for them, but they then should know how to be nice to you. And the way that they're nice to you is to never push any of the buttons installed by abusive parents. Does that make sense? So you tell people about your childhood, and then you monitor to see if they're pushing any of the buttons left over from your parents. or I don't know it doesn't have to just be your parents could be sort of any number of people in a way but, so how do you get good people in your life well you're honest and you're vulnerable with people and if those people exploit you you don't stick around, because then they're saying oh I'm so glad that you told me where it hurts so now I can inflict pain on you to get you to do what I want That's kind of sadistic, right?
[2:23:55] Yeah.
[2:24:01] So, I think that's... And I think that's kind of what's been missing, if that makes sense.
[2:24:07] It's the... Yes, it does. It does make sense.
[2:24:13] And is there anything else that you wanted to mention as we wind things down?
[2:24:19] I mean... A lot of work to do, I guess. And I know where to start now.
[2:24:26] Well, it's a lot less work than what you've been doing. Like, to me, what you've been doing, again, without necessarily knowing the cause and effect, but what you've been doing is getting involved in relationships that aren't satisfying, that can be exploitive, that hurt your heart, and that could happen over and over and over again until the universe cools its final atom, right? So that, to me, that's a lot of work. You know, being honest with people, telling them what you really think and feel, and then, you know, making sure that they don't exploit you, that's not work to me. Like what, what, and I listen, if it's any consolation, I did the same stuff that you're doing in terms of not being in particularly satisfying relationships to put it mildly. So I did all of this stuff for a lot, a lot longer than you did for until I was a lot older than you are. So I hope that gives you some comfort that you're, you're ahead of, you're ahead of me when I was your age, you're way ahead of me when I was your age. And I think that hopefully that gives you some, some comfort.
[2:25:30] but I'm actually asking you to do less work. Justifying people's bad behavior towards us, man, that's work. Getting your heart broken, man, that's work.
[2:25:41] Being honest about your vulnerabilities and then not letting people exploit you, that's not work. That's a whole lot easier because you only have to do that once or twice and then people will stop messing with you to begin with because they'll sense that coming off you and you'll be safe forevermore. So the path, I don't want you to sit there and say, oh my God, I've got such a giant mountain to climb. It's like, no, no, no. From here, maybe there's one little step or two up, but after that, it's all downhill, and the wind's in your back, and the sun's in your face, and there's beautiful scents coming up from the meadows below, if that makes sense.
[2:26:13] It does. I mean, sorry. Yes, I contacted you because, specifically because of what you just said, told me about stop justifying other people's bad behavior. I mean, because what happens with the guy I was talking to, I was 100% there and it still wasn't enough. and I guess I was just very angry.
[2:26:58] Right.
[2:27:00] Still, I mean, there's many people in my life that have wronged me in that sense.
[2:27:06] And you've also wronged by being overcompliant. It doesn't help them. It doesn't make them better persons. Right. So they've got a problem called selfishness. And when you comply, you also feed that which is worst within them. And you get companionship without feeling like you're worth much, which is kind of a little bit of a fraud. So I just don't want you to come off of this feeling like a pure victim. As a child, absolutely you were.
[2:27:31] I hate.
[2:27:32] Yeah, no, as a child, you were a total victim. And massive amounts of sympathies, completely and totally and utterly. Total victim. As an adult, yeah, you know, it's not quite so clear cut. Because we exploit others, and they exploit us, and it's not ideal. But that is certainly something that happens. Because otherwise, if you're just a victim, you can't change it much, right? But if you also participate in victimizing, then you can change it, because you can be more proactive that way. All right.
[2:28:09] All right. Okay.
[2:28:13] Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:28:17] Absolutely. I mean...
[2:28:19] And how was the conversation for you?
[2:28:21] I mean, it was tough. I mean, I have never talked about such a degree.
[2:28:28] Well, you did a fantastic job, if that helps.
[2:28:30] About the stuff with my family, it really hurts.
[2:28:36] It's... Right. Well, you did a fantastic job in the conversation. I know it's tough, and I really do appreciate that. And listen, you have a great life to come. You have a great life to come. There is stuff to deal with, for sure. It's just about being honest. On the other side of being honest, you have so much energy and so much relaxation and such a deep capacity to bond and love and feel safe and secure and happy. You have a great life to come. And I hope that I've given you some sense of that.
[2:29:07] You know, in talking about my relationships and so on, when you go through that process of just being really honest and direct, having standards and upholding them, it's a great life. And you really can have a wonderful love and a deep bond and real security and stability. And you have a great life to come. and you know if i could do anything to point you roughly in the right direction i i think consider it time very well spent uh.
[2:29:39] You're already doing it.
[2:29:41] Beautiful beautiful all right listen keep me posted don't forget you promised that if you're feeling really down you'll call your therapist or helpline directly you remember the promise all right brother thank you for the call i really appreciate it great job staff.
[2:29:54] Sorry about anything but.
[2:29:55] You have nothing to apologize Apologize for it. No, no, don't even think about it. You did a great job. You have nothing to apologize for. I really do appreciate the conversation. You did great.
[2:30:05] Thanks so much. Thanks, brother.
[2:30:06] Bye.
[2:30:08] Bye.
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