I am in the process of learning about my own insanity. I am male, in my 40s, top of my career field, I have a rigid moral system, am a great father, highly intelligent, charismatic, and by all outward appearances a stand up guy… but it's all defense mechanisms. That is the self identity I created, although from my insane perspective, God created. I have a Covert Borderline Personality Disorder. It used to be regular BPD, but in my mid 20's I realized my life sucked, and prayed and meditated for guidance… I had an amazing spiritual experience and came out the man I am now, I'm constantly self-improving. (I regressed to the womb and was reborn)
The only real drawback is an inability to have a real romantic relationship. My idea of love is childlike. It's highly romanticized. I think it should be magical. Easy. I can have transactional relationships (10 yrs long is my record) but it was loveless, for me. I can charm the panties almost any woman, but I've done that so many times it's also meaningless.
I have studied relationships, I can intellectualize them but I can only keep 1 or 2 close friends in my life, and I only maintain those so I don't lose my grip on reality and just live inside my own head.The only relationship I REALLY have is with my son. He's my whole world. I love him in that perfect unconditional pure love way that I can't with anyone else.
6 months ago, my neighbor called frantic with an emergency. His 18 yr old granddaughter was raging in their home. Throwing things, screaming, pure rage.
I walked in, assest the situation, and gave her a huge hug! She immediately went limp into me. I asked if they wanted me to take her to my house, they did. I put my arm around her and she came along without any resistance. Total child like submission. I sat her down on my picnic table, and when I wiped the tears from her cheek, I felt God (for the 1st time since my rebirth) put a little pure love her in my soul. I thought, "what was that for?" I immediately got a response that was not my normal inner voice say, "love thy neighbor as you love yourself." I let nothing show on my face, I rarely do. I got her some food and drink, and her aunt came over and we all talked outside. The woman shouted, i kept a calm deep soothing voice. The girl was frantic about being raped. The aunt had heard this line a few times. Girl didn't feel safe anywhere. I interjected, "you seemed pretty calm and relaxed in my backyard." She agreed. I offered my basement for the night. It has 2 empty rooms and it's own bathroom, with a huge tub.
She declined, but was now calm and seemed composed. I gave them both my number, and they left.
A couple weeks later the girl called. She was looking for job, or a way to make money. I had tons of yard work, but she declined. I mentioned some help wanted signs I had seen, and that was about it.
She calls again, looking for a place to live. Wants to get out on her own. I offered temporary room and board in exchange for yard work, she declines.
The calls and reasonable requests continue. She obviously has some issues and seems to want to open up, but never does. Im curious about God's message though and in my head I'm analyzing every nuisance of her words, speech patterns, etc. This little flame of pure love sitting in my soul.
This back and forth goes on, and on, and on. She wants to meet, but doesn't. She wants help and advice, but doesn't follow it. I just remain a steady rock.
Then she runs to [x] and starts throwing herself into danger for me to rescue her. I am 100% focused now. All of my senses kick into overdrive. I cautiously provide financial aid when she hungry or needs a ride. Otherwise I refuse to buy her clothes, or makeup. (I went on long monologs on the difference between charity and male mating displays.) She escalates to offering her body for money.
Now I'm becoming more me. I am more moral, more kind, more intelligent, more humble. I'm become obsessed with saving this girl, knowing the dangers of white knighting, I scan my mind for any evil thoughts. Nope I am morally right.
3 days ago I had the epiphany that she's has BPD. I took a crash course on psychology, and learned she is my mirror opposite.We both don't process emotions properly. I internalize, she externalizes.
She has no morals. I am morality incarcerate.
I am stable. She is not.
She is suicidal. I am not.
I can show her how to become me. It would fulfill my romantic love obsession. We would both finally have a lasting relationship….and I get to save a damsel I distress.
We are both devolving right now. I saw my real face in her mirror and my defenses are cracking. She is an 8 yr old calling me daddy on the phone while she out drinking with strange men.
WTF do I do? I can't even trust my own judgment anymore.
My question's are, what is real? What is moral?
I desperately need to debate with someone I can't manipulate.
0:09 - Warning: Gruesome Material Ahead
52:00 - The Girl Next Door
1:17:55 - Unpacking Childhood Trauma
1:19:58 - Family Dynamics and Childhood Trauma
1:20:10 - Unresolved Accountability
1:26:45 - The Burden of Secrets
1:27:44 - Emotions and Vulnerability
1:31:59 - The Complexity of Forgiveness
1:36:06 - The Cost of Silence
1:38:46 - Material Support vs. Emotional Presence
1:42:28 - The Dangers of Involvement
1:49:40 - The Pull of the Past
1:54:56 - Seeking Guidance and Understanding
2:28:26 - Navigating Relationships with Boundaries
2:32:31 - Reflections on Growth and Healing
In this intense and challenging episode, Stefan engages with a caller who brings a life filled with trauma and complex psychological struggles resulting from a deeply troubled childhood. The conversation begins with a necessary caution due to the sensitive and potentially distressing subject matter, mainly focused on severe childhood trauma, borderline personality disorder, and the impact of parental negligence.
The caller opens up about his life, tracing his experience with covert borderline personality disorder and the coping mechanisms he has employed to manage his emotional turmoil. He explains a transformative spiritual experience he had in his twenties that led to significant changes in his life, yet he admits that he struggles to form genuine romantic relationships and relies heavily on transactional interactions. His devotion to his son emerges as one of the few pure and unconditional attachments he feels, emphasizing the depth of his paternal love.
The discussion then shifts to an encounter the caller had with an 18-year-old neighbor, who is in crisis and exhibiting troubling behavior. This young woman had recently experienced trauma herself, including a possible sexual assault, and the caller feels drawn to help her, viewing her turmoil as a reflection of his own childhood struggles. As the caller recounts their interactions, he oscillates between compassion and an alarming sense of obsession, expressing an urge to step into a parental role to guide her towards healing.
Stefan carefully navigates the moral implications of the caller's intentions, urging him to recognize the boundary between compassion and self-destruction. He cautions that while the desire to help is noble, it can lead to a damaging dynamic if it comes at the expense of the caller's responsibilities as a parent. The dialogue probes into the caller's motivations, examining the fragility of his emotional state and the potential for projecting his unresolved feelings onto this troubled young woman.
In a parallel exploration, the episode delves into the caller's reflections on his parents' actions. Having been subjected to horrifying abuse during his childhood at the hands of his neighbors—an experience he did not fully comprehend until later—he grapples with the failure of both his parents to protect him. Stefan pushes for accountability, continually challenging the caller's tendency to excuse his mother’s past actions while confronting the gravity of her systemic negligence. The dynamic reveals the complexities of familial love interwoven with deep-seated resentment, prompting the caller to reevaluate his perceptions of parental responsibilities and moral accountability.
As the conversation unfolds, the caller expresses a recognition of the darker aspects of his character that resonate with the patterns exhibited by the young woman he's trying to save. He acknowledges moments of narcissism and grandiosity in his desire to be seen as a savior, prompting a discourse on therapeutic pathways and the importance of seeking professional help to better understand and address his mental health issues. Stefan emphasizes the need for the caller to focus on his own well-being before extending himself to others, particularly given the chaotic nature of his current work life and the looming responsibilities of fatherhood.
Towards the end of the episode, the caller's reflections segue into thoughts about integrating his painful memories into a healthier view of himself, while still wrestling with feelings of isolation and the longing for connection that define both his and the young woman’s experiences. Stefan reinforces that the road to understanding oneself and aiding others should not compromise one’s responsibility to care for one's own child, reminding the caller to ground himself in the reality of parenting.
The emotional intensity peaks with a narrated sense of the caller's conflicting feelings regarding personal worth and the quest for connection amidst trauma. As they conclude, Stefan encourages the caller to prioritize truthfulness in his relationships, especially with his parents, while also urging him to channel his efforts into fostering strong, healthy bonds with his son. The episode stands as a testament to the struggle for healing, accountability, and the often-painful exploration into the legacies of trauma that shape our interactions and sense of self.
[0:00] Just a note ahead of time, this is some very upsetting material, and if you have a history of significant child abuse, you might want to take this one slower, carefully.
[0:09] It is quite gruesome and upsetting, so just be warned ahead of time. Thank you. Let's see.
[0:16] Hello, Test? Hey, how's it? Is the audio good?
[0:20] Yeah, audio's fine.
[0:22] Perfect. Yeah, these are pretty good headsets.
[0:25] Good, good. All right, so, yeah, nice to meet you.
[0:30] Sorry go ahead before we begin i had a question for you yes um does any of what i said resonate with you i wonder if you went through a similar experience because you seem to be well you went through childhood trauma and you have an incredible intellect seem to use logic and reason to navigate your way in the world as i was typing this i suspected that maybe there's a similarity there I don't know. Just ask him.
[0:57] Well, let's do that as part of the conversation. Why don't you start by reading off what you sent me?
[1:04] I got to see how to get to that screen now that this call started. I'm sorry.
[1:07] No, no problem. I could read it for you if you can't find it.
[1:11] I've got it. I've got it, Stef. When you're set.
[1:15] Go ahead.
[1:17] I'm in the process of learning about my own insanity. I'm a male in my 40s, top of my career field. I have a rigid moral system. am a great father, highly intelligent, charismatic, and by all outwards appearances, a stand-up guy. But it's all defense mechanisms. That is the self-identity that I created. Although, from my insane perspective, God-creative. I had covert borderline personality disorder. I used to be regular BPD, but in my mid-twenties, I realized my life sucked and prayed and meditated for guidance. I had an amazing spiritual experience and came out the man that I am now, constantly self-improving. I basically regressed to the womb and was reborn. The only real drawback is an inability to have real romantic relationships. My idea of love is childlike. It's highly romanticized. I think it should be magical, easy. I can have transactional relationships. 10 years is my record so far, but it was loveless for me. I can charm the pants off of any woman, panties, I said, but that's also meaningless. I've studied relationships. I can intellectualize them, but I can only keep one or two close friends in my life. And I only maintain those so I don't lose my grip on my reality and just live inside my own head. The only relationship that I really have is with my son. He is my whole world. I love him in that perfect, unconditional, pure way that I can't with anyone else.
[2:46] So I'm going to interject here, if you don't mind, and add a little bit more because I couldn't get it all within the character limits.
[2:52] Go for it.
[2:53] Do you mind? All right. Now, we'll say six years ago or so as the relationship with my son's wife dissolved, I was kind of desperate and low and looking for where to get going, how to have an actual relationship. I want marriage and a family and all that. And I consulted my favorite Bible scholar, who's the late Derek Prince. And on his podcast, he had a God as a matchmaker. And he laid out what the Bible has to say about a biblical marriage and what that should be. And I prayed that for probably the last six years. And it basically echoes Genesis in that Adam didn't pick Eve. God created Eve for Adam, delivered Eve to Adam.
[3:42] And that basically was what I was looking for. But I added a few things. I wanted somebody who was intellectually stimulating and someone that I could delve the absolute depths of what human love could be. So that's basically what I've been praying to God for the last six years. Now, six months ago, my neighbor called, frantic with an emergency. His 18-year-old granddaughter was raging in their home, throwing things, screaming, pure rage. I walked in, assessed the situation, and gave her a huge hug. She immediately went limp into me. I asked the grandparents if they wanted me to take her to my house, and they did. So I put my arm around her, and she came around without any resistance. Total childlike submission. I sat her down on my picnic table, and when I wiped the tear from her cheek, I felt God, for the first time since my rebirth in my 20s, put a little bit of love for her in my soul. And I thought, what is that for? I immediately got a response that was not my normal inner voice say, love thy neighbor as you love yourself. I let nothing show on my face. I rarely do. And I got her some food and drink, glass of milk and a mini pizza. And then her aunt came over and we all talked outside. she never came in the house it was all outdoors you know very proper um.
[5:06] The women shouted. Obviously, the aunt was agitated. The girl became agitated when the aunt was around. I kept my voice calm and everybody sort of soothed down.
[5:18] The girl said something about being raped. The aunt, I'd obviously heard this a few times. The girl said she didn't feel safe anywhere. I interjected and said, you seem pretty calm and relaxed in my backyard a minute ago. She agreed. I had offered my basement for the night. It had two empty rooms, its own bathroom, huge tub, totally private. It wouldn't be a shared space. She declined, but was now calm and seemed composed. As they left, I gave them both my number.
[5:45] And a couple of weeks later, the girl called it. She was looking for a job or a way to make money. I had tons of yard work. I offered her, I don't know, 20, 25 bucks an hour or something to come and mow my lawn and things like that. She declined.
[5:58] I had mentioned that I'd seen help wanted sides around town, and that was about it. she called again looking for a place to live wanting to get out on her own i live very remotely so it's not like there's bus service or anything and she didn't drive i got why she didn't want it um anyway i did offer that in exchange for uh yard work she declined um the calls and reasonable requests continued uh she obviously has some issues and seemed and seemed to want to open up but never does. I'm curious about God's message, though, and in my head, I'm analyzing every nuance of her words, speech patterns, etc. This little flame of pure love sitting in my soul. The back and forth goes on and on and on. She wants to meet, but doesn't. She wants help and advice, but doesn't follow it. I just remained a steady rock. Now, I'm thinking to myself, this poor girl probably childhood abuse can't imagine she probably has never had a man that she could trust so that's what i was trying to be um there was some more things um some she went to.
[7:08] Before this i skipped this part and uh called me up and asked me to take her out clubbing i'm like no i have to go to work um work this week right it was some weird some weird calls but you know i i kept myself proper um then she ran herself she runs to straight from [x] to [x] sorry as i mentioned.
[7:29] If you could just stay off uh places that would be appreciated thank you go ahead.
[7:33] Certainly so she runs to a big city and starts throwing herself into danger for me to rescue and that's really when i woke up i am 100 focused on her right now my senses kick into overdrive, I cautiously provided some financial aid when she was hungry or needed a ride. She called me in tears after her first trip to the soup kitchen. You know, it broke your heart. Otherwise, she started asking for other things. So she asked for makeup, clothing, and I refused all of that. I went on long monologues about the difference between charity and male mating displays, channeling my inner Molyneux.
[8:17] She escalated to offering her body for money. Now that happened after an incident where she, she did get a car or her family provided her a car and she went drinking and driving and crashed it. Um, and yeah, so she, she was offering to trade her body for money in exchange for me getting her car out of the impound lot. And, uh, yeah, I, again, went on long diatribes on how this is not appropriate. it. And as this is happening, I'm actually becoming more me. As I communicate with this girl, I'm becoming more moral, more kind, more intelligent, more humble. And I'm obsessed with saving this girl. I know all the dangers of white knighting. I can scan my mind for evil thoughts. And no, I'm not trying to get in her pants or anything sexual like that. Just a pure desire to help another soul in need.
[9:13] And this is now four days ago, I had the epiphany that she has BPD. And it was actually listening to your podcast, but I couldn't really pay attention. You mentioned something about cluster B personality disorders, and it triggered my mind. And down the rabbit hole I went. So I took a crass course on psychology and learned that we are mere opposites. Neither one of us process emotions properly. I internalize mine, she externalizes hers. She has no morals. I am morals. Morality incarnate. I'm stable. She's not. She's suicidal. I'm not. I know I can show her how to become me. It would totally fulfill my romantic love obsession. We would finally have a lasting, we both would finally have a lasting relationship. I get to save a damsel in distress. Now, I know we're both devolving right now. I saw my real face in her mirror and my defenses are starting to crack. She is an eight-year-old calling me daddy on the phone while she's out drinking with strange men. What the fuck do I do? I can't even trust my own judgment anymore. My questions are, what is real? What is moral? I am desperately in need to debate with someone that I can't manipulate.
[10:24] Well i appreciate that update um was there i mean you said this was four days ago you sent me the message.
[10:31] Last night.
[10:32] And was there something in particular that happened that you wanted to talk to me more urgently.
[10:37] Yes well i there's i made arrangements with her family to get her car because i would not trade her uh take her body for money i offered to drive her vehicle if she get the cash and her family provided it and i promised that you know i'd help you out i could drive the car i drive all over for my work anyway it's not an issue and i've made arrangements with her grandfather um the two of us are going down to pick up her car and that was supposed to be that then she starts telling me that papa is picking her up on monday and now that's she calls her grandfather papa her father has passed um most likely because of bpd and drug abuse and self-harm that happens with uh with mental health um maybe a cause of her childhood trauma i don't know i don't know any of the real details other than she started acting crazy around age 14 so um that's what her family's told me um sorry why.
[11:37] Do you need to get her car.
[11:38] Um because i promised no no but right what she left her car.
[11:43] Somewhere you have to get someone to drive you and then you drive the car to where she is is that right.
[11:48] Uh no uh so she crashed her car while drinking and driving, so the car has been impounded and uh charging being being incurring impound fees um daily right uh monday is the earliest that it can be released from impound it was it was impounded for one month. So, like I said, I promised that I would drive the car, because it's going back to her grandfather, right? He's my neighbor.
[12:17] Oh, the car is going back to her grandfather.
[12:20] Yes.
[12:21] Okay.
[12:22] She has somehow decided that she is coming too. And Popeye is picking her up. So, as I'm making arrangements, I realize he doesn't know anything about that.
[12:33] About what?
[12:35] About her coming okay so she wants to go back and live with her grandparents, record right now it's almost a broken record not all the time but it's that but that papa's coming i'm coming papa's coming to get me i'm coming back here right home okay um which is great i want her to get out of the city and danger where she's totally you know destroying herself but it occurred to me i don't know when she says papa if she is talking about her grandfather or if she is talking about me sometimes when i speak with her she is a child she is an eight-year-old kid and she calls me daddy she has asked me straight up if i will be her father um and i'm like i'm sorry and you've known her for how long um actually i've known her for i guess eight years um she you know she would come over and visit the uh uh her grandfather and i have a very child-friendly place with trampoline and swing set and sprinklers and stuff and kids play at my house so she would come over and play at my house as a young child didn't see her you have uh well i guess your.
[13:47] Son was young back then is that why you have the.
[13:49] Child-friendly house well no no and i have uh um my uh my former partner um had a daughter so they're actually the same age um so my my stepdaughter and her are the same age okay.
[14:05] Got it so you've known her i guess off and on for for eight years and uh sorry it was a month ago that she had this crisis where she said she'd been raped is that right.
[14:15] Uh well no that would have happened six months ago six.
[14:18] Months ago sorry.
[14:18] Yeah now she's uh she's made the same claim over a few times now with me and i realized that this is what happens when they when a borderline personality disorder person um they kind of enter their inner child i suppose um when they want to punish themselves that it's more sort of like a a schizophrenic a second identity um goes out and does things and then when they return to their own mind they don't remember making those choices so they assume that they were raped last night um she called me up asking so this is the words i got and it was an eight-year-old little girl i'm telling you um was daddy i need twenty dollars i want and i'm like what do you need twenty dollars for and she said i need a mickey and she's obviously drunk with a whole bunch of male voices in the background. And I'm like, you know, I'm not going to do that. I will get you a cab ride home. You need to go home. And that's it. She hung up the phone on me. This morning, I'm the most hated person in her life. And an hour later, I'm the most wonderful person in her life, making sure that, yeah, that car is going to get picked up, right? And, yeah, Papa's taking me when the car comes. And that's about all I've talked with her today. Every minute's a different minute.
[15:39] Okay, and... I know that you've said, you know, what is real, what is moral, what is true, and so on. Those are sort of fairly large questions. Do you mind if we talk a little bit about, before we go into this young woman, do you mind if we talk a little bit about your childhood? I just want to get a sense of sort of where you came from and what forces shaped you.
[15:59] Right well um uh basic suburban uh uh household um mother and father were together until uh about age 12 i'm gonna say um dad was an alcoholic and uh worked a lot and when he wasn't working he was drinking so he was not really in the house all that much sorry oh.
[16:22] He drank outside of the home like he was at bars and and so on.
[16:25] Oh i can't exactly and you know he'd come home stagger and drunk or i remember him coming in with his head bloody because he crashed his car drinking and driving and um yeah he's still a drunk to this day there has been no improvement um my mother was a very caring person but uh i don't understand why i was at the neighbor's in-home daycare and And they were a Christian couple, their family. They were the only Christians that I knew, and they were horribly abusive. It was more or less a pedophile sex ring. What?
[17:03] Sorry, this is, you've got to slow your roll a little here. Let me sort of catch up a little. So at what age were you put into the...
[17:11] Three years old.
[17:12] At the age of three, you were handed over to your neighbors who ran this pedo sex ring.
[17:19] Well it was a it was an in-house daycare very common at the time lots of house yeah i went.
[17:25] To i went to an in-house daycare when i was a little kid too but.
[17:28] Probably slightly.
[17:28] Different go on.
[17:29] Yeah well that's the the entire basement that's basically what was there that's what was going on um yeah i you know a lot of my memories are repressed i think i have probably we walled them off i have very very patchy memories of uh of my childhood um um but yes i know all that happened because hey i went to court and testified i went to counselors and yada yada yada i remember the aftermath um i remember my sister was the one who told my mother what was going on okay so sorry.
[18:02] Sorry just again if you can just take a breath and slow down a little because this.
[18:06] Is familiar to you but.
[18:07] Not sorry let me finish.
[18:08] Let me let.
[18:09] Me let you we're going to have to do this thing where I'm talking, you can not talk. I mean, I know you're excited, I know you're enthusiastic, but I just need to be able to ask the questions. So what was it that happened that you do recall in this at-home daycare?
[18:32] Do you really want the gruesome details?
[18:37] I'm not sure but i mean i'm asking the question so i okay.
[18:41] Um there are a lot of child on child sex um the father with basically all the kids um and yeah you name it.
[18:55] I i'm so unbelievably sorry i mean obviously i don't want it to go without saying but this i actually i knew a woman who's whose own father had done this sort of stuff, and I'm just so incredibly sorry. What an absolutely evil, satanic, monstrous, corrupt, and decadent way to be introduced to human society. I'm just, I'm so sorry about that.
[19:24] 100%. It actually gave me a huge aversion to Christianity, because I thought, if that's what Christians are, I don't want to be that, right? Like, that was uh yeah it took until we'll say maybe eight years ago that i actually decided to finally open a bible for the first time in my life i read every other spiritual well of course i mean.
[19:46] The bible itself warns that a lot of evildoers will cloak themselves in pious garb right so.
[19:51] From what a sorry sorry.
[19:53] To interrupt from from.
[19:54] From what it sorry go ahead go ahead, i i said it was actually uh uh a line from vox day that had me reconsider things where he he was his difference between churchians and christians church churchians following the church and christians follow christ and that was like hmm i wonder what christ actually said i better read this book um yeah and that's kind of people uh these.
[20:22] People are uh whoever harms the least among you it's better that a millstone be put around his neck and to be thrown into the ocean this is a death penalty.
[20:30] Stuff in christianity amen now sorry hang on hang on let me let.
[20:36] Me ask a question so from what age to what age were you in this nightmarish hellscape.
[20:41] Oh three to nine oh.
[20:44] My god six years and how old was you was your sister older.
[20:47] My yeah my sister's three years younger Younger.
[20:51] So she was the one who told and you were nine and she was six. Is that right?
[20:56] No, she would have been. Yeah, that would have been more right. I guess that would have been right. Yep.
[21:03] And what's your sense at the time, and this is not to put any moral responsibility on you when you were a child, of course, but what's your sense at the time? I mean, did they threaten you? Like, why wouldn't you just say, hey, we played this game and, you know, reveal the hellscape? Like, what was it that kept you quiet?
[21:20] I liked it. It was fun. It felt good to have, you know, my parts played with by other people. You know, it was a good time.
[21:31] Well, okay. i mean but.
[21:33] Now but then but you had to keep it quiet for six hang on that you had to keep it.
[21:38] Quiet for six years right.
[21:39] Yeah yeah i mean uh that guy didn't do anything with me once i made it apparent that i didn't like that so he was like okay play with the girls play with my older daughter play with this little girl over here and i i liked it okay but.
[21:58] And and again i'm sorry for this this is all of this situation but if you thought it was normal you would you know like when i was at the daycare and let's say we played dead soldier right uh i'd come home and i'd say hey we played dead soldier right so i.
[22:15] Assume that things were kept uh.
[22:17] So hidden or or secret and and by what mechanism was it kept hidden or secret.
[22:21] I cannot recall but i you're you're absolutely correct because uh me and the other kids did the same thing outside of the house right uh if we were over playing at somebody's house we go hide in the bedroom where nobody was looking and fool around and got it at it up um i think for me it was my neighbor who was the same age as me a beautiful little blonde girl who was my best friend and uh i had lots of fun it's you know i didn't okay okay sorry sorry to.
[22:54] Interrupt sorry to interrupt, Do you know how disconnected you sound from the experience?
[23:01] That's the way I am. Welcome to my insanity. That's how I deal.
[23:08] No, that's how you don't deal, right? Because it's fun and the laughter and the giggles and so on. It is very disconcerting from the outside. While bottomless, immeasurable sympathy for you as a child. Unbelievable to me. like if a media struck that house with no kids there i'd i'd praise the skies above but i i guess i'm trying to sort of understand given that this is like 40 plus years later why there's still this disconnect this this uh this like surfing above the emotions and and and this laughter and like It's still very, very separate from the experiences.
[23:52] I think a lot of that is that I have a professional voice acting background, and I'm kind of just performing as opposed to actually being.
[24:03] Okay, so can you stop performing? I'd like to have a conversation, but not the voice actor you, because that's what you contacted me for, which you say, what's real? Well, the voice actor and the laughter and the giggling about this hellish stuff is not real, right? And I say this again with great sympathy, but it's not real.
[24:27] Yeah, that's a good point. Now, I did just get in the door from work. I got called out in an emergency call. And as I walked in and took half my clothes off to get ready, I got your message. So I haven't really turned into my personal space. I'm still kind of got the outside world face on.
[24:44] Well but you didn't tell me that ahead of time i had to sort of puzzle it out myself so it still says to me that you're disconnected because otherwise you would have said i'm feeling really disconnected when i tell this story it's going to be unsettling and and all of that right so but the fact that you're acting it out rather than telling me still tells me that you're disconnected from these things if that and again this is not a criticism i'm just saying that it is kind of unsettling and and distancing from the conversation when you seem to be making a joke of this um horrifying appalling evil situation yeah.
[25:18] I think because if i feel it's just going to come out in tears and anger and uh.
[25:24] And what's the i mean if if any situation in life would justify tears and anger it would be something like this wouldn't it.
[25:33] 100 and i have already cried these tears um.
[25:37] Okay but then why like you've listened to this i know you haven't listened to this show for very long which again i also sympathize with that but you haven't listened to the show for very long but if you have and you've heard call in shows then when people make light of evil that they suffered uh i try to intervene in in that gap or that distance if that makes sense.
[26:03] Absolutely, Scott. Absolutely.
[26:06] Did they go to jail, at least?
[26:08] No, no, they got off. An upstanding member of the community and lots of character witnesses, and it was just a whole bunch of pain in the ass for nothing, actually. Yeah, oh, I'll just drag your trauma out in the middle of the world for nothing to happen. No, they got away scot-free.
[26:30] I guess you got an education about more than Christianity over that process.
[26:35] I sure did, yes.
[26:36] Now, do you think, you said that your mother was a caring person.
[26:40] Yes.
[26:42] I'm going to have to call a couple of questions on that.
[26:46] Right?
[26:47] I mean, you're a father, right? I'm sure that you are perfectly aware when your child was home. You're perfectly aware whether your child is happy or unhappy, right? I mean, children wear their hearts on their sleeves. They don't really hide that much. so it seems hard for me to understand that your mother would not notice any change in mood, when you were going and getting sexually assaulted exploited abused molested and so on uh the idea that she wouldn't notice any change in mood or affect uh over the course of your time from three to nine is incomprehensible to me.
[27:22] Yeah my my kid my memory is a little fuzzy obviously of that time but I know she did work for a little bit at the Sears department store as a secretary or something like that. So it may have been that she was working during some of those years, but I know most of it was...
[27:43] No, no, no, no, no, no. When you go to work, and I've been a stay-at-home dad, and I've had a job. So when you go to work, you don't just completely disconnect from your child. You have mornings, you have evenings, you have weekends. You still know what's going on with your child.
[28:03] True. That's true. Now, my mother comes from an absolutely horrible abusive situation. She even wrote a book on her childhood abuse, which I could barely get through because it was absolutely horrible. So maybe that was some of it. I couldn't tell you stuff.
[28:23] So you see the difference, right? Your father was a horrible drunk, and it's even worse now, I assume, and your mother, so you give your father responsibility, and you give your mother excuses.
[28:41] Yep why i see that why um i suppose because for all of the memories that i have of my childhood mom was there um she still is today you know if uh if i need something she picks up the phone she provides it um especially during i mean i moved out when i was 17 never graduated high school went to work um and uh you know a lot of times you need money you run out anytime i called she was there to provide um you know you need 100 bucks here's 100 bucks you know help you pay your rent get food whatever um she definitely had uh the mother that i grew up with isn't the mother that she is now or or at least the mother that she was after she separated from my father um She became much more, well, even that, I really questioned some of my mother's judgment. Because she, after she moved out on their own, on her own with us, she started bringing in street kids because she wanted to mother everybody. And so.
[29:51] What do you mean? You're doing the same thing.
[29:53] Yeah, yeah, I know.
[29:55] You don't see this pattern? Now you're bringing in a street kid. A street kid who cries rape I mean, you couldn't be in more danger But we'll get to that All right, So how did your mother overcome the terrible abuse that she suffered in order to become a kind person? I mean, because it's hard to do, right? Did she go to therapy? Did she do a lot of self-work? Did she keep journals? How did she overcome this terrible childhood to become, as you say, a kind person?
[30:29] I would say it was self-work. Yeah, lots of reading, lots of talking. um yeah my my house as my in my teenage years was always filled with people and it seemed uh she was gathering wisdom and passing it out um okay and how did she.
[30:49] Process the fact that she subjected her own children to years of the most horrendous kinds of sexual abuse imaginable.
[30:57] I don't know you.
[30:59] Must have some idea.
[31:00] Well she took us to uh counseling and therapy when we were, you know, young juvenile. But that all ended when, yeah, the divorce happened and we moved out. And then I don't think it was really talked about after that.
[31:19] I mean, you're a father. If you had been responsible for your son being abused in this kind of way, I mean, how could you process that?
[31:28] I would have a hard time not falling into murderous rage.
[31:31] Right. So that's my question, right? How did she process the fact that her children, who she is sworn by God, blood, loyalty, lineage, and motherhood, she is sworn to protect her children, and she delivered them into hell itself for years and years and years, and didn't ask and didn't find out what the hell was going on? How does she live with that?
[32:03] I would say she's probably more mentally damaged than I am.
[32:09] Okay. So if she has avoided dealing with that, and she was about the worst mother that can be conceived of, in that she married a drunk and delivered her children to child molesters for years, this is about as bad a mother as you can conceivably be. Is that fair to say?
[32:25] I think that is fair to say. And now that I think about it, she wrote her whole book about all of her horrible things that happened in her life, but she didn't mention anything about what happened to her children.
[32:35] Well of course i mean that's almost inevitable because if she had a connection with her children like do you understand that you were abused by the christian couple but because of your parents, because they had accurately figured out that you had no connection with your parents and your parents didn't give one living shit about you and your sister enough to protect you or ask you or find out anything or even notice that you were being abused in the most horrendous ways possible so it is your parent your parents delivered to you delivered you to this horrific couple this evil couple and they preyed upon you because they precisely knew the lack of connection between you and your parents.
[33:15] Right well this is this is the boomer way is it not um.
[33:20] No no no no no don't get abstract on me brother no we're not talking about the boomers as a whole we're talking about your parents that's.
[33:26] That's what my neighborhood was was all the children we i lived on a cul-de-sac in the suburbs so we were all everybody was out running around playing you know in the summertime and things like that and you know it was a i don't know nobody seemed to pay attention to their kids at all we.
[33:43] Were okay but not all the kids ended up in this situation no.
[33:47] That's true as well so.
[33:48] How did she become a nice kind person, because she sure as hell wasn't as a mother when you were a kid, she bound you tied you up and threw you to the wolves every day weekends accepted for six straight years.
[34:12] Yeah as.
[34:15] Did your father.
[34:15] Yeah so.
[34:19] When you say.
[34:20] To me.
[34:20] My mother is a nice kind person i got a few fucking questions.
[34:24] Well and and this this is probably i'm certain um why i am the way i am from what i've uh from what my limited time of studying has shown me is uh this particular rare form of borderline personality disorder is when you are abandoned you have a dead mother and as the narcissistic personality is forming mother returns either uh intermittently or all the way and the narcissistic personality doesn't fully form but you pick up the defense mechanisms that a narcissist would and tack that into a borderline personality, which is basically how I managed to function.
[35:08] Well, I appreciate that. I think I followed most of that. Obviously, I'm not a psychologist, psychiatrist, or mental health worker, so all I can do is say that I think that dysfunction continues when we deny the truth. And this is why I'm pushing back when you giggle about the horrendous abuse you experienced as a child. This is why I'm pushing back when you give your father responsibility and your mother excuses, and this is why I push back when you say your mother is a nice person, because none of that seems to me even remotely true. It can't be true. You can't be a nice person and deliver your children to six years at the most horrendous kinds of abuse and molestation that could be conceived of. And then never really deal with it and then write an entire book about, oh, I have suffered so much over the course of my life. And never address it. I mean, does she address these things with you? Did you get apologies, restitution? I mean, what happened when this all came to light?
[36:05] She's not the same person anymore. she uh she had a bout with cancer um during the covid stuff and she's not quite the same, she's definitely not as sharper and it took a lot out of her i don't know that i could have that conversation anymore but maybe.
[36:22] I'll see that i don't believe that either i mean unless it was brain cancer and she had part of a brain carved out i mean i had a bout with cancer yeah she had.
[36:32] A lot of blood loss so it may be the lock the amount of or the lack of blood that she had.
[36:37] Okay somewhere between you being nine and you being in your 40s see i'm asking when she apologized made restitution and you go straight to well a few years ago and it's like but there's 30 years in between there.
[36:51] Yeah maybe that's why she was always handing me money because that's the only way she could apologize.
[36:58] No but i don't not the only way she could apologize the way that okay she herself go to therapy sorry.
[37:05] You are you're so right yeah.
[37:08] I'm i'm listen i mean and i i listen i sympathize and none of this is is at all negative to you i'm i'm like i'm trying to reach down with this like hook of truth right to pull you out of this this marsh this swamp of of of necessary falsehoods when you were a kid but not so necessary now that you're an adult right so i mean you're you're on the closing phase of middle age right so i'm i'm saying this with all you know great great sympathy and affection and and and intense horror at what you went through but i i can't listen to you talk about a woman who delivers her children to pedophiles and then say she's nice like i can't fucking do it i won't i won't do it, Okay. I won't hear you laugh about it, I won't hear you make jokes about it, and I won't hear you praise your mother. Like, I mean, you can have that conversation if you want, but just not with me, because I don't do that.
[38:12] Why do I have that image of her then?
[38:16] Because it was necessary for you to survive, to cleave to your mother's selfish narcissism and her own self-worship and self-pity. So she pities herself, as we know from her self-pitying autobiography, which is not to say she didn't suffer as a child, but it's all about her. So your mother, in order to maintain any kind of protection from your mother, you had to go along with her narcissism, her self-pity, you had to be there for her, you had to rescue her, you had to prop her up, she was never there for you, never apologized, you're not real to her, so it's hard to be real to yourself. I think you accept that, but the price of being in the relationship with a narcissist is self-erasure. and and cleaving to the self the narcissistic self-praising self-pitying self-definition of the narcissist and that's that's the price that you had to pay to survive and i'm glad i'm glad you paid it like good on you wise decision excellent decision we all have to do that shit when we're raised by crazy people we all have to that.
[39:17] That makes sense because in my in my teens after the parents split i just yo-yoed back and forth between the two I would get fed up and leave mom and go to dad's and get fed up and leave dad's and go to mom's and, uh, you know, none of the places were really that great.
[39:36] Well, I mean, being around a narcissist is like being underwater. You can only hold your breath for so long. So you'd hold your breath at your mom's place, go to your dad's place. And then, oh my God, I got to hold my breath here too. And like, you probably only live for the time between the two places.
[39:51] I was just getting out and getting drunk in the teenage years. doing as much pot and drugs and anything else I could find.
[40:00] Right.
[40:00] Sleeping with anybody who'd let me. right yeah so what did you do with your anchor um i well that's that's uh what's walled up that's what i have walled up behind my uh my wall of logic that i've built um and the moral code that i built uh behind all of that is a raging fucking homicidal monster and um when i stress out too much a little bit comes out um i i can be extremely cruel with my words and uh that's that's, that yeah but it's it's short-lived a couple hours maybe a whole day and i get it out and i'm back to who i am but that monster is locked behind some serious bars and uh right so i mean.
[41:01] I i think that the goal.
[41:03] Would be to find that Aristotelian.
[41:04] Mean between Giggle Guy and Rage Guy. right that these two i would assume that these two forces which are again i completely understand and i just really want you to know and i just really want to reinforce this i feel in no way critical towards you i feel in no way negative towards you i'm very happy to be having this conversation i massively sympathize with the survival tactics you had to go through so none of this is critical of you i'm just really trying to get out of that disconcerting feeling right which is a giggle and i mean of course the anger is there right i mean i i watched um um this documentary on the menendez brothers right i don't know if you know that story at all or remember it.
[41:46] I do a little bit yeah.
[41:47] Right right well they were horrendously sexually abused and they they killed their their parents and in my view i'm obviously again not a psychologist or psychiatrist but in my view they didn't kill their parents because they were sexually abused they killed their parents because they claimed to love their parents and felt very devoted towards their parents and so they couldn't integrate the shadow self with the false self and so because they they loved their parents they couldn't get away it was stockholm syndrome right and so the only way they could was to eliminate the parents if they had been in touch with their anger towards their parents and not had the sentimentality of having to love their parents in my view they wouldn't have felt driven to murder but so so i think that the integration of of the angry side and listen you got horribly brutally viciously satanically exploited and and treated in in ways that are uh absolutely oh i would say inhuman but it is part of human nature to be this of some people's human nature to be this vile and and violent and ugly and destructive so uh you have a lot to be uh angry about have you i mean as an adult and i i'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have i'm just curious if you've really talked to your mother about what happened at the neighbors that she gave you i.
[43:05] Have not not as an adult um no i have not.
[43:10] How much does she know i um.
[43:15] I don't even know the last time that this was talked about, maybe at age 10 or 11. It wasn't discussed at all during my teenage years. It would have been shortly after it ended and maybe a year or two of counseling, and then it was just closed off.
[43:31] So you were going off the rails in your teenage years, drunk, doing drugs, sleeping around, and your mother never brought up your sexual abuse? She never tried to talk to you about it?
[43:43] No.
[43:44] Why not? no.
[43:45] She had the.
[43:46] Sorry let me rephrase that why the fuck not yeah.
[43:50] She had the local community health worker come and deliver free condoms uh.
[43:54] Okay don't don't don't be jovial with me like please you gotta stop joking about this shit because this is as ugly as things get okay that.
[44:00] Is serious because you're right rather than stopping what i was doing.
[44:04] Well no just connecting the two you're sleeping around and you were sexually abused everybody knows that's a correlation you're doing drugs you're self-medicating intense emotional agony and not just what was done to you but what you and the kids did to others because it's one thing to be done unto it's another thing to do and again we can sympathize we can understand but that's still a heavy burden to carry and thinking.
[44:30] About it you know i'm 14 or 15 and there's a bush party and she would give me a ride there.
[44:36] Right so she was continuing the corruption yeah.
[44:41] Just go out with these people nobody knows and.
[44:43] Yeah hey son i would rather you self-medicate than talk to me about what happened to you.
[44:48] And hey don't don't get in a car with anybody drunk if you need a ride home just call me so that's that caring aspect that i can latch on to and be like oh look she really cares.
[44:58] Well she was enabling addiction with your father right yeah.
[45:02] Well obviously she had yeah dad had trained her well right.
[45:05] Well no no no no my god man why can you not give female agency dad trained her well she chose him, Was she a reasonably attractive woman when she was younger?
[45:22] Yeah, I suppose.
[45:23] Okay, so show any reasonably attractive woman has the choice of six to 20 men. And she chose your dad. He didn't train her. She chose him. She chose to date him, get engaged, get married, have children, stay until you were 12 and your sister was nine. she stayed three years after it was revealed that he allowed you to be sexually abused for more than half a decade and by the time you were nine for like two-thirds of your entire life right two-thirds of your entire life which is like 20 years if you're 60 sorry 40 years if you're 60 right so for two-thirds of your life your father who's been the supposed to be the primary protector handed you daily over to these monstrous abusers so she stayed with him three years after that.
[46:21] Yeah i think the only reason that she left was because he started doing cocaine and she didn't like cocaine.
[46:28] Right i think that.
[46:29] Really the only reason that the uh marriage really separated was that, you know, his money started going up his nose.
[46:39] So she stayed, even though it was horrendous to the children, and they're both 100% culpable for what happened to you and your sister. So she stayed until it became financially inexpedient and inconvenient.
[46:51] Yeah, that sounds about right.
[46:54] Are you really going to try and sell me this shit about her being kind? Only when it negatively affected her did she leave.
[47:01] No, obviously, I need to rethink my childhood memories. Yeah, I haven't thought much about, you know, back in the day.
[47:09] No, it's not your childhood memories. It's your adult perspective. Your childhood memories are, I've got to please this woman or die. I've got to please this woman or die. I've got to please this man or die.
[47:19] That is probably why I keep myself so busy. I, you know, when I do actually relax, I completely clear my mind of thoughts. but otherwise i fill every second with activity thoughts i have 18 processes running at the same time um and yeah one of them is not reflecting on my childhood that seems to be uh just something i don't really do that it's.
[47:48] Your childhood experiences are important but it's your adult moral judgment that is the essence of it, You have not, you've not morally judged your mother objectively or your father.
[48:05] I think that's fair.
[48:07] They were monstrous enablers of bottomless evil who've never admitted fault, never taken responsibility, never apologized, never made amends. Not that amends could be made, but at least you could try.
[48:19] I've actually just never analyzed that. i haven't put my focus there put them on the scales i thought you.
[48:28] Were morality incarnate.
[48:33] No but i i because this may be a borderline personality disorder uh okay you gotta stop saying that.
[48:45] Sorry to be annoying but that's a cope for me because i again.
[48:49] I'm a moral philosopher so borderline person.
[48:51] I'm just looking for the truth. You can categorize and label it all you want. I'm just looking for the truth. I want you to think of this. I want you to think of this. I want you to think of this. Now, thankfully, this didn't happen, I'm sure. But let's say that when your son was nine, there was a babysitter who molested him. Again, I'm sure it didn't happen, but let's say he was nine and he told you about this, right? you'd be very angry at that person, at the babysitter, right?
[49:26] Absolutely. Right.
[49:31] Now, what if you left your son with your mother, and she hired the babysitter because she wanted to go out, and the babysitter molested your son?
[49:42] Yeah.
[49:43] Would you be angry at your mother?
[49:45] Absolutely, and myself.
[49:47] Okay. you'd be angry at your mother for hiring a babysitter who molested your son once, okay but your mother hired a babysitter who molested you and your sister for six straight years.
[50:08] So, yeah, no, this, this, this is, uh, what I was trying to say was apparently with the, uh, one of, one of the markers of BPD is what they call splitting. People are divided.
[50:24] Okay. See, see now, now, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. What did I just say? What, what request did I make? Stop talking about this shit. We're just trying to get to the truth. Now you're making up an excuse. Well, bipolarists, they do splitting. Okay, that's fine.
[50:40] Absolutely.
[50:41] That's fine, but I'm just trying to get to the truth here. Okay, you would be incredibly angry if your mother hired a sexually abusive babysitter for your son.
[50:51] Murderously rage, yes.
[50:52] Okay, so you understand that when you say, this is the perspective that I have, that your mother hired murderously abusive, horrendously evil child rapists to... babysit you and your sister for year after year after year after year after year after year after year. So you can't tell me that she's nice. If you can't say, well, I'd be really enraged if she hired a babysitter that abused my son, but the fact that she hired babysitters that abused me and my sister for six years, well, it's okay, because she throws me some fucking shekels from time to time.
[51:36] Yeah. I mean, she appeared to be concerned and upset and caring and nurturing and taking us to therapy and stuff.
[51:46] No, she dumped you on a therapist and didn't deal with her own complicity. She needed to go to therapy, and she also needed to figure out how to keep you on the straight and narrow. And when you started to go off the rails, she needed to get you into family therapy, family counseling. She did none of that.
[52:00] She let the drug dealers drug you so you wouldn't speak up to her.
[52:22] So do you want to hear my lame excuse now.
[52:26] It's your conversation you can say whatever you want.
[52:28] I think the only reason that i haven't gone and analyzed them is because with bpd before the condition develops anybody you knew is an automatic angel. Everybody after that is under your skepticism.
[52:48] Okay. What did you say about the 18-year-old girl? You said she loves you, then she hates you, right?
[52:53] Exactly. Exactly. Oh, exactly. I see this. This is the same thing that I have now in that I don't really trust anybody. I'm highly skeptical of absolutely everything. Everything's bad, but I look for evidence to see, are they truthful are they good what are their actions in the world and that's how i make a judgment whether that's somebody that i can actually trust and put energy into or not right um which is why i'm calling you everything you say makes sense i can you know um, yeah every everybody else i'm highly skeptical of not just people but things absolutely everything I would almost say I'm paranoid, except most of the time I'm right.
[53:41] Well, but you're in a particular kind of world because of your historical necessary denial of moral truths. It keeps you in a particular kind of world. So, I mean, give me a, what's your favorite female name?
[53:58] How about Sarah?
[53:59] Sarah, okay. So let's say tomorrow you meet Sarah, and Sarah's a really nice, moral, kind, good, strong. No, no, let's go back. Let's say that you meet Sarah tomorrow, and you find her very attractive, she's very intelligent, she's a good conversationalist, and then you find out, maybe she's younger than you or whatever, maybe she's in her 30s or something, and you find out that Sarah is on good terms with the father who rented her out to child abusers. and she thinks he's a kind and nice guy. Would that make sense to you?
[54:38] No, she would definitely need to re-examine that.
[54:42] Okay, and what would you say to her?
[54:48] That you're... This is the father in this case, right? Yeah, your father fucking abandoned you. Threw you to the wolves. You know, he's not a good guy.
[55:01] And then she'd say, well, hang on, what about your... You just said your mom was kind. See that lovely little universality thing that philosophy does?
[55:15] This is why I need you.
[55:18] Right. So it's hard to leave your childhood behind when you continue the lies no longer necessary for survival. you were betrayed in almost the worst conceivable way by your parents.
[55:45] You haven't talked about it with them directly, you haven't confronted them, they haven't apologized, they haven't made amends, and you're just chugging along. Which means that you still feel enslaved and dependent upon their goodwill, but you're in your 40s, so you're not. But if you act like you are, the childhood is not over.
[56:10] If I was so desperate for my crazy mother's approval that I couldn't tell the truth to her or to myself, I would still be under her thumb, under her boot heel. Every time I tell the truth, I'm defying the enforced lies of my childhood. It's one of the reasons I'm so keen on the truth is I never want to go back there, where I couldn't tell the truth. I couldn't tell the truth because I would be attacked and beaten up and so on, right? So, I have made it my life mission to tell the truth, because it's kind of like, you have to keep taking medicines for certain, like, if you've got diabetes, you need to keep taking your insulin. So, I need to keep telling the truth to make sure childhood never creeps back up and mind flayers me. So, that's what I'm suggesting for you, that the moral truth about your parents is essential to know. because otherwise your childhood, which I think you say BPD, I mean, again, I'm no psychiatrist, but my understanding, my amateur understanding is that BPD maintains itself to the degree with which the lies you are forced to swallow and regurgitate as a child, remain in your mind as credible perspectives.
[57:29] Could be. I'm just scratching the surface on this.
[57:36] All right. So, Why did the 10-year relationship end?
[57:46] A lot of things. I think it was a cluster of things. I had taken a much more challenging position at work. I was more absent because it required a lot of my time. I was learning new things that would, you know, give me a higher paid position with my employer, which I did. um i was stretching my uh work life basically i was challenging myself as best as i could for to make as much money as i could for the household and during that time um her mother passed, and um i was i i couldn't stop what i was doing to actually comfort her um i mean a little bit when i was home but i worked on the road um and she you know i was working nine days um out of a two-week cycle so um she was left to her own devices and went into the arms of another man while she was pregnant with my son oh wow yeah so i finally yeah finally got a family, and it blew apart because i was working too hard well.
[59:09] See that's more of this excusing female behavior right well.
[59:13] She didn't make a.
[59:14] Choice to have an affair i was just working hard.
[59:17] Uh you know what i had this is this also shocked me to the core was how much she lied to me with a straight face and i didn't notice yes but then you just lied to.
[59:29] Me saying that the reason she had the affair is hey guess what my friend all throughout human history.
[59:36] You know men have had pretty.
[59:38] Hang on still talking all throughout human history men have had to work pretty hard we've had to work down mines we've had to work on ships we've had to work in the wilderness we've had to work a lot of time we've been drafted we've had to be in in in war you know for a lot of human history men have had to work pretty fucking hard in fact modern men have to work a whole lot less than historical men, and it's not like every historical man had his wife cheat on him. So it's not because you were working hard.
[1:00:06] No, yeah. Like I said, it was a cluster of things, a number of things that...
[1:00:10] No, but not one of those things have you described as her voluntary choice.
[1:00:16] Oh, absolutely.
[1:00:17] You've given me all of these circumstances.
[1:00:20] Yeah, no, she made that choice. And then she chose to lie about it repeatedly as I tried to patch things up. Because that's when I started noticing. was i remember i bought a large chunk of beef and sliced it up into three roasts and wrapped it up and put it in the freezer went to work came home and there was two roasts and not three and uh because i was i wanted a roast beef dinner and uh what happened to the other roast what other roast, that i i i okay that is a huge lie there's a roast missing i put it there myself see now you're doing the laughter thing again right uh maybe a nervous tick no.
[1:01:05] It's not you're just trying to invite me into this is funny but this is the disintegration of a marriage or a relationship with a pregnant woman to the detriment.
[1:01:14] Of your son.
[1:01:15] Right it's not funny right.
[1:01:16] No no not at well it gets worse because uh she did uh you know acknowledge well she actually knows she gaslit the fuck out of me is what she did she gaslit and gaslit and gaslit and to crazy making freaking proportions where i'm like really what maybe there was two roasts um and uh yeah uh she stopped because i stopped seeing little signs sorry she stopped and then uh seeing this guy when the when our child oh so when you started to become.
[1:01:48] Suspicious she stopped seeing the guy okay.
[1:01:51] Yep and so the child was born i took my maternity leave i stayed around the house uh two months, You can get that.
[1:02:01] I think it's paternity leave.
[1:02:03] It is paternity leave. Yeah, yeah. Same difference.
[1:02:06] Okay. I'm not going to get all Freudian on you, so just keep going.
[1:02:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just what we call it anyway. Everybody calls it mat leave, even though it's an entirely male-dominated workforce. So, yeah.
[1:02:21] All right. So, you took your mat-pat leave, and then what?
[1:02:25] Yeah, yeah. um yeah i just dove into my son um you know i yeah um when i went back to work, um i started noticing she was being deceptive again she was she she was uh she was lying and i knew something was back up and uh her daughter was away in a sleepover um i was like hmm if she is cheating on me this would be the time so i took a day off of work and came home early and, found them both in each other's arms with my son between them and uh i took my son in my arms, uh infant he was still in his first year i would say three or four months old wow.
[1:03:14] So a lot of children being exposed to inappropriate sexual activity.
[1:03:18] 100 all.
[1:03:20] Right, and was that it then you broke up.
[1:03:27] I threw him out of the house um no that was not referring to the leopard not the sun right such yes no i kept my arm and and verbally threw him out of the house i have a very scary voice if i want to bring it out, my ring my rage comes out and my rage was coming out so yep and i was gonna get the fuck out of my house um and uh yeah she's i she she actually never said i'm sorry and that was the one that was the the final straw for me or jesus you didn't.
[1:04:04] Even require for your mother to say she was sorry.
[1:04:06] Yeah no she she she would say it would never happen again it would never happen again it would never happen again but she wouldn't say i'm sorry or even admit that anything happened right um right like it's just gas and she's not cheated for.
[1:04:22] The previous 10 years right.
[1:04:24] Uh no she did and what what year.
[1:04:28] Did she cheat in.
[1:04:31] Um I'm going to say the fourth.
[1:04:41] Oh, wow. So you stayed six years after she cheated.
[1:04:44] Yep. And I got the same thing that time. It'll never happen again. All in tears.
[1:04:49] Well, I hope your son looks like you. I'm sure he does.
[1:04:53] He absolutely does. And I did have him paternity tested. So he's definitely mine. He not only looks like me, he acts like me, talks like me. Everybody says we're mirror images. And if you look at my child pictures beside his, we're identical.
[1:05:06] Okay so what did your wife was she a wife did you were you married.
[1:05:11] I wanted to marry her i uh she i i uh proposed to her she accepted and then when it came to wedding planning she i totaled it up it was about a two million dollar fantasy wedding and i'm still a blue collar worker i'm sorry she wanted a two million dollar wedding yes what was like beyonce headlining.
[1:05:31] I don't understand.
[1:05:32] How you spend.
[1:05:33] Two million dollars on a wedding if you're not rihanna.
[1:05:36] She's she's a scottish uh immigrant to canada and she wanted to fly everybody back to scotland and rent a castle which was her childhood dream um and she had her her fantasy wedding and i was like okay well that's not in reality so well you know to be honest you both have a.
[1:05:53] Little bit of a grandiose side right.
[1:05:56] Absolutely absolutely as.
[1:05:57] Long as you're aware of that now what does she think.
[1:05:59] Of your.
[1:06:00] Mother and your father.
[1:06:00] Um when my father lost his house because he was too much of a drunk to go to work and pay his mortgage which should have been paid off a long time ago if he was actually responsible with his money he gets.
[1:06:19] Responsibility the women get excuses and i'm just pointing this out and i won't stop pointing it out until you stop doing it so go ahead.
[1:06:24] Yeah you know at least when i needed somebody she'd answer the phone and if he answered the phone it was drunken fool shit so uh there was no actually communicating with my father much at all he was always in a state of drunkenness unless he was working so yeah but you could easily say.
[1:06:46] That your father had less of an excuse because he had a crippling alcohol addiction while your mother wasn't addicted and therefore was much more responsible.
[1:06:57] Yeah.
[1:06:58] But you wouldn't do that now, would you? Because that would be giving your mother responsibility.
[1:07:04] Interesting.
[1:07:07] Okay, so what did your wife think of your mother and your father?
[1:07:14] So she had never really met my father until then, and when he lost his home, was like, we've got to bring him in here. We have lots of space.
[1:07:22] Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Got to keep me up to speed with the story. How long had you been dating your girlfriend before she met your father? Okay.
[1:07:37] About six years.
[1:07:39] Did she have no questions or curiosity about your parents before then?
[1:07:46] Surface-level questions, nothing super deep.
[1:07:50] Did she know about the abuse that you and your sister experienced at the neighbor's house?
[1:07:54] No.
[1:07:55] Okay, so you hid that from her, right?
[1:07:58] I hid that from most people.
[1:08:00] Okay, she's not most people. She's the mother of your child.
[1:08:05] Absolutely, yeah.
[1:08:06] Okay. Did she know that your father was a drunk?
[1:08:09] Yes.
[1:08:10] Okay. She knew that your parents had gotten divorced, right? And so, and how long ago did you guys break up?
[1:08:18] Uh, it's been six years now.
[1:08:20] Okay. So you got together 16 years ago. Is that right? Or was it before then?
[1:08:24] Yeah. Uh, no, that's about right. Maybe even longer.
[1:08:27] Uh, okay.
[1:08:28] So maybe eight.
[1:08:29] Yeah. So you were in your mid, you were in your late twenties when you met her, right?
[1:08:34] Or early thirties, about that.
[1:08:36] Well, if it's 16 years ago, it puts you around 30. If I get this math right.
[1:08:41] Yeah. I'm pretty bad at remembering dates.
[1:08:44] So late twenties, early thirties, whatever, right? We'll just say you're, you're, you're around 30. Okay, so she met you, and she did not want to meet your parents, and you barely told her much about your childhood or how you were parented or your parents themselves. Is that right?
[1:09:02] No, like I said, my mother had come down a number of times for holiday meals and things like that, you know, Christmas.
[1:09:09] Oh, so from early on, the mother of your childhood met your mother, right?
[1:09:15] Yes, but not my father because, well, we all live in different towns.
[1:09:19] Okay, so let's just help me out a little here. So she met your mother. What did she think of your mother?
[1:09:26] She liked her.
[1:09:27] Okay. So this woman has no real capacity to detect corruption, right?
[1:09:33] Yeah, that's a fair assessment. Okay.
[1:09:35] And you hid the dysfunction from her.
[1:09:39] Mm-hmm.
[1:09:40] And then you have the absolute gall to tell me that she lied to you. are you kidding me brother well you lied to her about everything, your entire origin story your whole fucking family you lied to her about everything I'm not saying she was perfect but oh my god and then at year 10 she lied to me and it's like bro the whole thing was founded on bullshit.
[1:10:04] When my father lost his host.
[1:10:06] She wanted to move him in you keep jumping off what I'm saying and going off onto some tangent, i mean you heard what i said right so what does your father losing his house six years into this relationship have to do with you lying like your ass off which i sympathize with but you're lying your ass off the whole beginning of the relationship the whole way through because.
[1:10:29] I had this discussion and said well he he's a fucking drunk he deserved right what he got he's not paying his bills he lost his job he was drinking without drinking and driving lost his license.
[1:10:41] Oh when you're when the mother of your well i guess the mother to your girl when your girlfriend wanted your father to come and stay with you you said no way he's an asshole right.
[1:10:49] This is this was known right like i just there was that you know what's your what's your parents like dad's a drunk mom's okay right like.
[1:10:56] Oh that's what you said and then when.
[1:10:58] He lost and she's yeah like i say it was rather surface level that's you know yeah dad's he's a happy drunk he's not a mad drunk but he's still you can't have a conversation with the guy um you know.
[1:11:10] And did she ever ask you why your mother married a drunk? So she's kind of a profoundly Uncurious person, right?
[1:11:22] Yep.
[1:11:23] So you married someone because you had Secrets to keep and she wasn't asking?
[1:11:29] You know As far as I married her Or we were together for so long Because She had skills She could actually do things, You know, hold a job um uh yeah she she uh yeah veterinarian had you know some talent had you know uh a nurturing capacity she could you know cared a lot for animals um and her i i saw her how she parented her daughter and i thought that she was doing a great job so that was really it was like hey she's a functioning person look at that right like i don't know too many of those um, Yeah, that's what I thought.
[1:12:19] Right. But you had to be with someone who was not curious, because if she kept asking, she'd find out.
[1:12:28] I suppose that's the other one, is that we both are active doing things, right?
[1:12:33] Okay, let's rewind. What did I just say? Because you're going off on a tangent again, right?
[1:12:43] Okay. Sorry, repeat.
[1:12:45] Okay. So it's important that you listen, right? Because there's no, I'm not trying to talk to myself. I can do that anytime, right?
[1:12:50] Absolutely.
[1:12:50] And I'm not trying to be a nag, right? But because I keep saying stuff and you just kind of blank out and go off on a tangent. So you couldn't be with someone who was curious about you because then she'd find out the truth about your childhood. And then she'd say, well, if she was any kind of decent moral woman, she'd say, I kind of fucking hate your mother because she caused you, she and your father caused the most suffering of anyone to you, I can't love you and also love the person who caused you the most suffering. Can you love your son and also the babysitter who caused him the most suffering?
[1:13:30] I can love my son, but not the babysitter, no.
[1:13:33] Right. You'd hate the babysitter who caused your son the most suffering.
[1:13:36] Right? Absolutely.
[1:13:37] Okay. So if your wife found out about your family history, she would turn on your mother and she would say, I hate that woman because she caused you the most suffering. I love you. Therefore, I hate the person who caused you the most suffering. You can't love someone and the person who caused them the most suffering. That would be a contradiction, right?
[1:13:57] Yeah.
[1:13:58] Okay so your mother was commanding you to shut the fuck up so that she wouldn't be judged by an outside eye.
[1:14:10] Say it's just something i don't want to talk about i know that's why we're talking about you're not calling.
[1:14:16] Me for all the things that are working well are you.
[1:14:21] And uh me hazing out a little bit and missing what you say is one of my fucking defense mechanisms so i apologize no it's not it's not it's your mother's defense.
[1:14:31] Mechanism so she.
[1:14:32] Doesn't get oh but it's it's not just that it's on anything when i get lost in thought i uh i tend to block out other stimulus um yeah that's just something i do i apologize you.
[1:14:46] Have nothing to apologize to before i'm just pointing it out i mean it's no no problem all right.
[1:14:51] I know it's there i do it all the time i what does your son what.
[1:14:55] Does your son sorry to interrupt what does your son think of your mother.
[1:14:58] Um he he likes her you know she does he doesn't get to see her very much my my mother lives in another province so uh you know it's so your son doesn't know the truth, Oh, no. No, he's six.
[1:15:15] Oh, my apologies. Sorry, I thought he was older. I'm so sorry. You're absolutely right. Of course, you shouldn't know the truth. You're totally right. My apologies. I had him in my mind as he was older. My apologies. And you're right, because you said you split up six years ago, and your girlfriend was pregnant. So that was my brain fritz. I completely apologize. You're absolutely right. He shouldn't know anything. So you have your son around your mother.
[1:15:40] Uh well we go we went for summer vacation out there to see the zoo and ride roller coasters and stayed with my mother and sister my mother's now living with my sister in their in her house um so yeah he got a birthday presents from from his granny and his aunt um had cake and you know went out to the zoo with granny and me right like but so she's never been in your world morality.
[1:16:09] Incarnate and your moral excellence and your.
[1:16:14] Moral semi-divinity.
[1:16:15] You can be one of the worst mothers known to man and still get all the benefits like nothing happened.
[1:16:23] Well, I didn't view her in that light.
[1:16:25] No, you did because you told me this story right at the beginning.
[1:16:29] Yeah. I just didn't analyze it.
[1:16:32] It's not a matter of analyzing it. She did you great harm, right? I mean she's responsible because she's your mother, everybody knows when you hand your kids over to someone well first of all she decided to have some stupid fucking secretarial job rather than raise her children because if she'd stayed home with you guys this wouldn't have happened so she chose money over her children's protection, which is about as shitty and satanic a bargain as can be conceived of oh I'm going to go slave away for $4 an hour rather than take care of my children I'm going to hand them over to these monsters, so you know all of that, And now it's just gone, just ignored. And children are welcome around her, and she never suffers any negative consequences. She's never confronted. She never has to make amends or apologies. She never has to acknowledge anything, even though after she found out you'd been abused in just about the worst way any child can be abused in. For more than half a decade, by the age of nine, she then let you slide into a bottomless pit of drugs, sexual behavior, alcohol, addiction, and dysfunction without lifting much of a fucking finger to stop it, even though she knew exactly the course, because she says, well, you see, I had a bad childhood, and that had negative effects on me as an adult. She wrote a whole autobiography, right?
[1:17:54] Mm-hmm.
[1:17:55] Now, so she knows the causality between bad childhood and dysfunction later on, so she knew without a doubt, I'm not saying she wrote the autobiography when you were this age, but when you were in your mid-teens, how old was your mother?
[1:18:13] I'm afraid i don't know i would say in her 40s.
[1:18:16] Okay so if you had you at 25 then she'd be 40 when you were 15 that.
[1:18:23] Sounds about right.
[1:18:24] Okay so she's 40 years old she knows that she had a bad childhood she knows the negative effects it had on it she knows you had a bad childhood she can't hide it because there was a whole court case or series of court cases she went to she sent you to therapy, and I'm sure that the therapist talked to her and said, here's what's going on, here's the progress, here's the challenges he has, here's the challenges his sister has, here's what you're going to need to look out for, here's what you've got to watch out for, right? They give you this stuff, right?
[1:18:49] I don't know what the therapist and her talked about at all.
[1:18:54] Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I'm going to assume that the therapist said, there's been a lot of trauma, here's what to watch out for in the future. I mean, if you go to AA and you quit drinking, they'll say, here's what to watch out for in the future so you don't drink again. Don't hang around people who are drinking. Don't go to the bars. Don't go to other places where they sell alcohol. You can try to minimize your contact with people who drink a lot. Like all of these things, right? So your mother knew what to look out for when she was 40 and you were 15. Did your sister also slide down the same way when she got older?
[1:19:35] More into sex than drugs and alcohol but yes she and sex with much older men um, yeah.
[1:19:45] So neither your mother nor your father it sounds like lifted much of a finger to protect you and your sister from the effects of the abuse that they inflicted upon you through a third party when you were little that.
[1:19:59] Sounds accurate yep okay yep that sounds that's yeah that's accurate.
[1:20:11] So you're still serving corruption right, you're not holding anyone to account you're not holding anybody responsible your dad's drunk you're mad at him a little bit but you don't hold him really accountable are you still in touch with your dad.
[1:20:25] Uh yep okay not not frequently but I try to call every month or so.
[1:20:31] Okay. What should the punishment be for people who... Hang on, let me finish. What should the punishment be, do you think, for parents who hand their children over to satanic child molesters? yeah millstones well i mean should they suffer negative consequences at all, yes okay so what negative consequences have you helped them to.
[1:21:08] Well i don't think you could do more for dad um he's his his uh life is uh punishment enough.
[1:21:17] Which is still calling him yeah.
[1:21:20] Well honor thy mother and father right nobody else.
[1:21:25] Is going to call him no but they have to act as a mother and father like if you just have a sperm donor you don't owe taking care of that person for 20 years when they get old right they honor thy mother and thy father but they actually have to mother and father you which means to educate protect nurture and transfer moral values to you, you weren't parented you were anti-parented, that's right your father chose alcohol and your mother chose work and child abusers so you honor absolutely honor your mother and your father but you have to actually parent and they did not yeah.
[1:21:57] Well they like i say at least they still buy my kid gifts so that's about that.
[1:22:02] Okay so they buy you yeah they buy your silence jesus man yeah jesus.
[1:22:09] That's that's that's accurate yep.
[1:22:12] Okay is that biblical that you give up honesty and truth and virtue and integrity for a couple of fucking trinkets absolutely shitty okay so let's not try that.
[1:22:24] Yeah hey there's a reason i've always felt alone.
[1:22:30] And what's that reason because.
[1:22:33] I've always been alone.
[1:22:34] Nope nope that's not it that's not it, that's i mean that's a tautology right why am i alone because i've always been alone no you're alone you're alone and sorry go ahead how's.
[1:22:48] That nobody else that i could count on except for myself.
[1:22:56] Nobody else you can count on except for yourself. I mean, that's a very somewhat self-pitying and kind of dramatic way to say it's really tough to tell the truth when you've gone through significant abuse. But it is, right? Because you feel like it's a shameful secret.
[1:23:15] Yeah.
[1:23:16] Because of what was done unto you and also mixed in with what you did to other kids, right?
[1:23:21] Yeah.
[1:23:23] So you carry a secret and secrets isolated. right secrets are motes fiery motes around us that keep us distant from people.
[1:23:31] See i i have tried to talk with people and yeah nobody wants to hear it.
[1:23:39] Okay but do you know why do you know why because it's uncomfortable and nope just not polite conversation no because and i can't speak for everyone but it's what i said at the beginning it's because you giggle through it, and that's strange and and and very unsettling for people.
[1:23:58] Yeah i remember the first time i was uh rather drunk and in tears with my best friend and uh so yeah it was it was an appropriate response uh yeah and my best friend didn't want to hear shit.
[1:24:20] So wait you were you weren't giggling through it you would your defenses were down from alcohol.
[1:24:27] That's the first time i tried to open up to somebody i was probably maybe 15 or 16 pissed.
[1:24:34] Fucking okay how old was your friend same age oh come on man you expect a traumatized 15-year-old to be able to handle what went on with you as a kid? That can't possibly be your standard.
[1:24:55] Nobody else to talk to.
[1:24:56] No, no, no. Stop tangenting. Stop it. Listen. Listen. Listen. Are you saying that humanity is damned because some drunk, traumatized 15-year-old kid at a party, that happened 30 years ago was not a deep, wise, and sympathetic listener?
[1:25:19] No, I tried again with my first real long-term relationship. And yeah, she didn't want to hear that either.
[1:25:30] Okay, and were you... Hang on, hang on, hang on. So you're just saying she didn't want to hear it and it had nothing to do with how you presented it.
[1:25:42] Uh it was uh in tears i was in tears and we were laying in bed talking and uh it was yeah she's like well we all have fucking shitty childhoods and she did that's that's for sure she had she probably had a worse one than me uh at least more violence i was that i didn't have a lot of violence in my life um what do you mean you didn't.
[1:26:06] Have a lot of violence.
[1:26:07] I mean physical violence the whole, Yes, a threat, but not physical violence.
[1:26:15] But the threat of violence, in that if you told... Okay, imagine you'd said to these absolutely evil babysitters, or whatever you'd call them, yes, my father is having his friend over who's a police chief, and I'm going to tell him about all the fun stuff we do over here.
[1:26:46] I mean, what do you think would have happened?
[1:26:55] Like I say, my memories of that are pretty fuzzy, but I'm guessing they would have.
[1:26:59] Right.
[1:27:00] I'm guessing though, it would have been a mental manipulation as opposed, but which could be a threat of violence. Absolutely.
[1:27:07] It would have been something, listen, man, people who are capable of doing that are capable of doing anything.
[1:27:13] I remember very clearly the sense of dread and fear when my sister told my mom what was going on. I don't know what caused it, but I do remember that moment of my childhood very clearly. Right.
[1:27:28] Tell me what you're feeling. Tell me what you're feeling. I heard your voice catch. I was just not sure what you were feeling.
[1:27:36] I'm feeling sorrow, sadness.
[1:27:39] Go on.
[1:27:44] Oh no i i have emotions i i am empathetic i just don't bring them out very much.
[1:28:05] So did the emotions go away.
[1:28:06] They're muted what.
[1:28:11] Did you um was it your mother telling sorry was it your sister telling your mother or was it something else that brought the emotion on.
[1:28:20] It was the the exposure of the secret i think um i don't know exactly what i was afraid of I remember just being so afraid and my jaw dropping and, you know, yeah, and actually feeling a little betrayed by my sister. That was something I thought too at the second. And, you know, my sister and I have talked. We're all good. We have, maybe not, but we get along fine. We seem to have.
[1:28:52] We spend a lot of time. What does your sister think of your mother?
[1:28:57] She loves her too. She moved her into her house and she's no longer able to take care of herself.
[1:29:11] Would you say that you're a Christian man?
[1:29:15] I am now. Okay. It was after the...
[1:29:18] Sorry to interrupt. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:29:20] I was going to say it was after the delusion of my relationship that I started thinking I needed to do something better. Obviously, my choices weren't working. So I was looking for more guidance. and i uh yeah picked up the bible and started delving into christianity um so it's it's only been a short time and uh i learn as i go were you raised a christian no not at all actually another vivid memory was probably around age six and i remember asking my mom um is there a god and that that question stopped her in her tracks he was doing something in the kitchen and she looked at me and sighed and said, I don't know. And a lot of my high school years, I was looking for that. I say up until my twenties, probably from 14 to 20, if I wasn't drinking and having sex i was uh reading all sorts of from new age to uh hinduism to anything but christianity um i you know i'd actually walk down the uh self-help religious section of a library with my.
[1:30:44] Eyes you gotta you gotta you gotta stop filibustering man i just asked you a simple question are you a christian man and you just say yes yes now you're giving me the whole everything you read in your teens and like jesus man okay so i'm i no no i don't want more i just wanted a yes or no i'm just trying to you know i'm mortal you're mortal right okay yes so does god forgive unrepentant sinners no okay, Are you wiser than God?
[1:31:15] No.
[1:31:16] So why are you forgiving unrepentant sinners? Why are you withholding the beauty of repentance from your mother's blackened soul? That's where your anger is coming out, is being silent with her about the wrongs she's done. You are damning her to hell.
[1:31:42] Yeah, I've been thinking about this with my father, actually.
[1:31:46] Okay, I'm talking about your mother. Try and stay with me.
[1:31:49] No, I'm on point, because I have been thinking about this exact thing about my father, but I have never thought about it about my mother. That's what I wanted to say.
[1:32:00] Okay. So why do you withhold the possibility of restitution from your mother? Why do you damn her soul?
[1:32:17] Well i guess first of all i hadn't really thought that she had done anything, horrible to me until now um so that really wasn't i didn't think she had anything that required forgiveness um, see the error in my ways and that.
[1:32:36] Okay so let's say that's true and i'm going to go with what you're saying is true so now that you see that she sinned as darkly as almost humanly possible, because of course i mean the people who abused you and your sister so appallingly were the direct sinners but your mother was responsible for protecting you and she delivered you to hell for year after year and didn't ask you how things were going and didn't inquire and didn't vet these people and didn't check and didn't, right? So now that you know that your mother sinned terribly, now what?
[1:33:17] Probably give her a copy of the recording of this.
[1:33:21] Well, that's let me doing the work that's in your relationship.
[1:33:26] You're not wrong. No, I'm definitely conflict avoidant in a lot of ways. Some conflict I don't mind, but they definitely have an issue with emotional conflict.
[1:33:36] No, this is moral conflict.
[1:33:39] Yep, fair. It's moral conflict that provokes emotion, very strong emotion. And I seem to want to avoid that in all ways, shapes and forms.
[1:33:49] So the reason why you have inconstant and cold women in your life is that a warm-hearted, passionate and moral woman would go for your mother's jugular in about five minutes. metaphorically of course right like she would be like wait your mother was responsible for protecting you and she did this, and then she let you spiral as a teenager after consulting with therapists and did nothing this is monstrous.
[1:34:21] Yeah. Oh, I mean, she helped me get a damage deposit for my first place, right? Doesn't that count? No, it doesn't.
[1:34:31] So she would say, hey, you know, next time we sit down with your mother, I'm going to have it out with her. I need to understand what the hell happened, because I care about you, and she did this immense harm to you, and you still seem to be buddy-buddy, and you're putting your child in her path, and you're avoiding having an honest conversation with her, you're all burying and lying about the past? Have you never heard, thou shalt not bear false witness? I can't stand what she did to you. I hate her for what she did to you. I'm going to have to talk to her about it, and maybe there's something I don't understand, and I'm obviously happy to be instructed, but I can't just break bread with this woman like nothing happened, or your father, for that matter.
[1:35:16] And I know I have memory gaps that I can't fit all the fucking pieces together when I go back. I can't recall it all.
[1:35:26] Right.
[1:35:26] It's fuzzy. I remember she gave me my first car. She helped me pay for my first place. She helped me cover some of my bills.
[1:35:35] Where did she get all this money from?
[1:35:39] Oh, she at least projected poverty. She basically gave every spare cent she had to me and my sister.
[1:35:48] Did she get alimony and child support from your dad?
[1:35:53] She did until whatever age, yes, and she worked, and then she rented out the rest of our house to troubled youth where the government paid her money.
[1:36:04] Okay, so it's not her money.
[1:36:07] No.
[1:36:08] It's your dad's money and the taxpayer's money.
[1:36:11] Well, she also worked. She was a kitchen manager and yeah, she's worked all the way until she physically couldn't anymore. Yeah. Literally passed out on the job from blood loss. So it's not like she wasn't hard working.
[1:36:34] I'm just saying it wasn't all her money. Probably most of her own money went on her own bills and then she got money from your dad and money from the government. It's not that hard to be generous with other people's money.
[1:36:46] Yeah, we had a very large place. So I imagine that the mortgage payments and whatnot were probably eaten up by dad's money and it was her money and other stuff to put the food and keep the lights on, things like that. Definitely didn't live any sort of rich life. Mom barely drinks, like, you know, have a glass of wine twice a year kind of thing. doesn't have any substance abuse issues doesn't have any addiction that i can see so as far as i can tell she put all of our money into us we definitely had all the greatest toys and clothes and anything you wanted was there except i guess counseling you know um well even then her kitchen table was a place to talk and work things out but i yeah there was just certain subject matters what are you talking about but well you're having you know uh how to how to get your first job how to write a resume things like that not um not delving into the fucking shit in the past and, things that are super emotional it was uh you know so she i guess yeah it's there for some things but not others um a lot of a lot of material support um.
[1:38:10] Yeah there was a lot of material support i i can definitely say i always had food in the house um.
[1:38:19] Yeah.
[1:38:24] Would you rather have had your mother home and not go to the neighbors?
[1:38:29] Yeah.
[1:38:29] But don't talk to me about the money.
[1:38:32] Yeah, I would. No, I know. I'm just saying.
[1:38:36] Don't talk to me about being bought off. Don't talk to me about money. Her job is to protect you, not buy you trinkets and hand you over to pedos.
[1:38:46] But that's probably why I think of her favorably. right? Because the material was there. It was the emotional support that was lacking. If I needed, yeah, financial support, I could get it. And some emotional support, you know, advice, navigating dating and things like that. But yeah, nothing about like, Hey, maybe you shouldn't get fucking drunk every weekend. Um, you know, none of that.
[1:39:19] Well, you know why she couldn't say that, right?
[1:39:22] No, and I do now.
[1:39:24] She married a drunk, and she was afraid that you'd say, well, Mom, you handed me over to pedo neighbors. So let's talk about that, huh?
[1:39:35] Wow. Intermittent mother. Some there for some things and not there for others. Oh, but it just, uh, it was half of it, half of a mother, I guess it wasn't, you know, I didn't have the full mother experience. I'm missing that whole portion of it, of what fucking parenting is about. I can't think of a day that I actually spent with my parents. It would be hours, minutes, moments, you know, talk around a meal. And that was it.
[1:40:30] So now that you know that you sinned, what does that mean? What is the most Christian kind and healthy thing you can do for your mother? given that she's getting older and she might be dead soon.
[1:40:44] To do my best to explain how she has harmed me and give her a chance of redemption.
[1:40:49] That's right. Good for you. Good for you. Smart guy, man. Smart guy. Smart guy. All right, so let's talk about spending another couple of minutes. We can talk about this young woman, the 18-year-old. You can't get involved in this. You can't. She's very unstable. You're not a mental health professional. Neither am I, right? She's very unstable, and she's very dangerous, because she makes, you said that she talked about being raped, and it seemed that there was, I don't think her, was it her aunt or her mother? No, her aunt. It was her aunt who didn't really believe her, right?
[1:41:32] Yeah, that's correct. Okay.
[1:41:34] So let's say that the aunt is right. I obviously don't know, but let's say this woman cries rape when it's not true, right?
[1:41:41] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:41:42] What happens to your son if you get accused of something? You don't have the right. Like, you don't have the right. You know, you and I both, we don't have to go into details. We know exactly what would happen. It's your life would turn into hell for years, and your son would suffer the consequences. Your loyalty is to your son.
[1:41:59] Uh-huh.
[1:42:00] And your son, and your son, and your son, and your son. not to some tragically disturbed 18-year-old neighbor.
[1:42:11] Yep.
[1:42:12] Your job is to focus on your son, not to put yourself at risk by trying to intervene, with a promiscuous, drug-addicted, bipolar, as you say, oh, sorry, a BPD neighbor girl who, according to the aunt, falsely accuses men of rape. You can't do it.
[1:42:29] It's not on the table. It's not an option. This is like alcohol to your father. you've got to say no.
[1:42:41] Like, I'm not kidding about this. This is about as serious a thing as I've ever said on this show. You had a six-year-old son. He needs 100% of your time, care, and attention. You cannot be out riding to rescue for women who don't particularly want to be saved at the moment, and who you can't save. I can't save her. Maybe a whole team of people in Zurich can, but go watch the Dr. Phil family. Dr. Phil, with all of his immense resources and millions of dollars, tried to help this family for a year or two. And it seemed to me about as messed up at the end as at the beginning. You can't fix her. And it's one thing if you're a young man and it's just you that's unwise, but it becomes deeply immoral if it comes at the expense of your son. This is going to come at the expense of your son, right? Everything you pour into this woman is at the expense of your son. And you're putting yourself in significant risk. Significant risk. And you can't do that. it's like riding a motorcycle drunk when you've got a kid you can't do it you can never do it anyway you can't do it anyway it's even worse when you have kids you can't put yourself in this.
[1:43:45] Situation well i'm i'm not moving her into my house she would she would go back to her mother like i'm just trying to get her out of danger and into therapy, because right now she is are you alone with this woman, um no you've.
[1:44:02] Never been alone with her.
[1:44:02] No other than that few minutes in my backyard oh i thought she moved i thought.
[1:44:07] She came into your house at some point okay.
[1:44:10] No never never never never never okay why why.
[1:44:13] Why why do you want to save her or why do you imagine that you can.
[1:44:18] Um for one she's reaching out to me um i didn't notice the extent of her insanity until she started throwing herself into danger okay so once you found that out and then once you found that out i started once you found that out once you found that out then.
[1:44:41] You need to pull.
[1:44:42] Right oh then i got extremely curious like i i can't read what's going on in her so i i'm trying to figure out it's a puzzle to me it was a it was a intellectual puzzle um and you know it was yeah that's it an intellectual puzzle and as i studied it i went wait a second that's me too only different um yeah it's the exact opposite it's the same same you know in the ds so so stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.
[1:45:19] Stop this is another filibuster and it's the mental stuff right okay.
[1:45:23] Does your.
[1:45:24] Son want you to get involved in chasing after this woman and giving her money and trying to solve her problems, If your son could speak, does he want you to do this? Is this beneficial to your son?
[1:45:38] Probably not.
[1:45:39] Then stop. That's all you need to know. Then stop. Your responsibility is to your son. He didn't choose to have you as a father, and you've already split up with his mother, so that's one strike down, and now you're up chasing some crazy young woman and giving her money and putting yourself in jeopardy. It's bad for your son. That's all you need to know. You didn't have parents who dedicated themselves to you and put your interest ahead. Stop talking. Let me finish. It's really rude. Okay? You didn't have parents who devoted themselves to your welfare at the expense of their own preferences. Your mother chose work and put you in dire danger. Your father chose alcohol and put you in dire danger. Your mother and father both chose avoidance and handed you over to the wolves of terrible peers, hypersexuality, alcohol poisoning, drug addiction, you name it, potential, right? So you don't have an experience, and I sympathize with this, I really do, you don't have an experience of parents putting their own preferences aside to focus on what is best for you. Is that fair to say?
[1:46:52] Absolutely.
[1:46:53] Okay, so you don't know what that's like. I'm telling you what that's like, is you say to yourself, what is best for my son? And you discipline yourself to do what is best for your son. Now, you already told me that your son doesn't want you getting involved with this woman.
[1:47:11] Absolutely.
[1:47:12] Right? So that's all there is. That's your only decision point. Is it best for your son? It is not best for your son. It's highly dangerous and toxic. right? You don't know what this woman is capable of, except that she's capable, according to the art of false accusations of the most heinous behavior. And you might not even have to be alone with her for her to make an accusation like this. You don't know what kind of dangerous criminal element she might be running with. You don't know what kind of diseases she might have. You don't know what kind of crazy behavior she's capable of. You don't know what strange drug adult fixations might occur within her mind. You don't know if she's capable of stalking. You don't know if she's capable of bringing dangerous elements into your environment. You don't know any of this. You are putting yourself in unacceptable levels of risk for a father.
[1:48:01] I do know some of this. I have talked with a couple of her family members, and I had no intention of being alone with her. I was driving her grandfather down to pick up her vehicle. That was the plan. Grandpa paid for the vehicle. He's my neighbor. It's going right back to his house. um so i.
[1:48:21] Am okay are you just going to minimize i mean if you're just going to minimize everything that you hang on if you're i know i just i just interrupted you i apologize for that but if i'm telling you the dangers that you have that you're exposing yourself to and you're going to minimize them uh my understanding was that this is a huge issue in your life that you wrote to me mostly about this so you know that you're kind of half obsessed with her you've got this god glow of love for her she's like an eight-year-old and like you you seem to be like two-thirds of your entire message to me was about this girl so if you're going to minimize it that's then you're just going to do what you want but you wrote to me like it was a very big deal and now you're saying well no i know some of this stuff because yeah like her family knows all of her criminal connections of course they don't right oh i'm just doing this it's just a little thing okay then it's not a big issue so.
[1:49:06] No it wasn't supposed to be a big issue it was just supposed to be picking up a car and now she is saying she is coming back when i talk with the family that is news to everybody right um she's she's going back with her grandpa to stay at her mom's her mom didn't know that and her grandpa didn't know that.
[1:49:29] So i don't know what that means about anything why is any of this your issue.
[1:49:41] I suppose because I see a fucking child in the same state I was, and I want to help.
[1:49:47] Okay, that's narcissism, though.
[1:49:50] Yeah, I know.
[1:49:51] Okay, so that's not healthy. She's just like me. Okay, if you want to help a child, help your son.
[1:50:02] Oh, I do. I pour everything into him.
[1:50:05] Well, no, not everything, because you just wrote to me three quarters about this girl.
[1:50:10] Until this and okay yeah this.
[1:50:13] Is what we're talking about you can't say until this is what we're talking.
[1:50:16] About well and i i think the reason also that i've been, fixated is because i saw i i learned a lot about myself i'm learning a lot about myself as i see what she's going through i see how that's been reflected in me okay did you learn a lot about yourself.
[1:50:36] Like oh gee my mother exposed me to tremendous evil as a child or did you just get that from this conversation with me or did you learn that from her somehow.
[1:50:42] I got that from you but i've only been processed for a couple of days and you know i'm just learning about, that hey i have a fucking mental condition that i didn't know i was living with so i'm trying to i you know i have limited time sorry are you self-diagnosing.
[1:51:00] Bpd because you're diagnosing her bbt.
[1:51:02] Uh yes exactly okay you're not a mental.
[1:51:06] Health professional what are you diagnosing people for i mean i just said narcissism but i meant that in just a selfish way not in any kind of clinical way so why are you putting labels on her and you and like you're not a mental health professional you wouldn't diagnose someone with a kind of illness would you.
[1:51:22] Yeah if it was a parent you know if you have a cold sore on your face i can say hey look you have a cold sore on your face that's from the herpes virus you know um it could be it could be something else right yeah so you can't.
[1:51:34] Diagnose you can say it looks like a herpes sore but everybody can't it could be something else.
[1:51:39] It's true.
[1:51:47] But you understand it's not healthy. It's not healthy for you to get this wound up. Okay. Are you going to let me finish? Are you going to let me finish a sentence or no?
[1:51:57] 100%.
[1:51:58] Okay. It's not healthy for you to get this psychologically and emotionally bound up to your neighbor's kid. I mean, do you think it is healthy? You're not a mental health professional. You have no authority in this situation.
[1:52:15] This is precisely where my alarm bell started ringing when I realized that I was, uh, compelled. I was under compulsion. I couldn't act. I didn't want to stop. I was avoiding my own self-care. Um, I would became an unhealthy obsession and I threw up some red flags and then contacted everybody that, um, I know and looked for, uh, somebody's arriving at my home. I don't know who this is.
[1:52:45] It would be ironic if this was the woman.
[1:52:49] No, I don't know who this is. Could we put this on pause and get back in a moment?
[1:52:53] Yeah.
[1:52:55] Okay, thank you. hello stuff yes sir oh there you are um okay sorry no.
[1:54:15] No problem so uh.
[1:54:18] You were saying.
[1:54:18] That you felt yourself falling down this abyss of obsession and that's why you were reaching.
[1:54:22] Out for help absolutely and when i contacted all of her family members and my the person i used to trust um everybody was like yeah go for it and i'm like you're crazy right i shouldn't really go for it why are you all saying that by go for it they.
[1:54:41] Meant to dive in and try and help this um.
[1:54:43] That's exactly what they said so yeah i i i think i need a better freaking opinion um which is why i'm calling you okay.
[1:54:57] Now if you were to say to all of these people i think i'm going to be honest with my mother about the issues i had with her parenting, what would they say?
[1:55:12] Well, I don't think they know me very well. So, um, but yeah, I don't know.
[1:55:18] Come on. You and I know exactly what they would say. They'll let sleeping dogs lie. Don't bring up the past. Your mother's old. It's a long time ago. She's not well. She just had cancer. I mean, they would, they wouldn't, they cancel you out of being honest and direct with your mother.
[1:55:31] And you know as i tried to talk to her grandfather who's supposed to be coming with me and i could tell he wasn't listening to a fucking word i was saying uh he was just crying right so this.
[1:55:44] Family produced this daughter.
[1:55:47] Yeah absolutely absolutely they did um i think they have a long history of mental illness now that i uh been looking through well.
[1:55:55] Maybe i don't know maybe they have a long history of abuse. Were there any signs that you saw when this girl was younger that she might have been being abused? I'm not saying how, in what particular kind of way.
[1:56:14] No, that's just it. I remember her just a happy kid running around, you know, just a regular little girl. Yeah. I'm not sure what age she was when her father passed, but I know that was from a drug overdose.
[1:56:33] Oh, come on, man. And are you saying that she wasn't abused, but her father was a drug addict?
[1:56:38] Yeah, she probably, I'm sure she was abused.
[1:56:40] Oh, come on, man.
[1:56:40] I just, I don't know. You asked if I saw any signs.
[1:56:43] No, you're right. You're absolutely right. Yeah, you're right. So thank you for the correction. You're totally right. Okay.
[1:56:50] Yeah.
[1:56:50] So are you saying that she had a father who was a drug addict, but she showed no signs of any dysfunction in her demeanor?
[1:57:01] Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course, she's there playing with a group of kids and she was just a happy kid, just a normal kid, like happy running through the sprinklers, bouncing on the trampoline, doing cartwheels, things that kids do big smile on her face, you know, normal, happy, healthy kid. Don't see her for, uh, I don't know. I probably didn't see her from age. I'm going to say 11, 12, something like that. You know, she doesn't live here. She only comes to visit her grandpa during the summer. So, um, maybe she just got too old to hang out with grandpa or whatever. I don't know why I didn't see her again until I was sitting on my porch, relaxing after a hard week of work. And, uh, got a call to say, ah, come help. That's, that's where I saw her again. And then I've been like, what the fuck is going on with this girl? What has happened from there to there? Right. And I'm just fucking really curious. And of course, my own personal experiences that I'm having are making it even fucking weirder. You know?
[1:58:06] I don't know what you mean by that last bit.
[1:58:11] Well, I haven't had any religious experience since I kind of built my own personality myself wholesale until now. So this is another one. I'm like, hmm, that could be crazy. People don't usually hear from God. Right? Or that could be legitimate. I don't know.
[1:58:36] Well, did God tell you the truth? Did God tell you to tell the truth to your mother? Did God tell you that the people who hurt you the most were your parents and you need to have honest conversations with them?
[1:58:50] Only twice in my life have i had any sort of thing like that um and those are the two instances um in my in my early 20s and then six months ago so something triggered me one way or the other whether it's divine or whether it's my own subconscious picking something up and going hey she's just fucked exactly the way you are um right i have you know those are the only two times that happened i kind of wrote the first one off you know as an anomaly it helped me become what i am now i you know yeah i don't know i don't know why i started fucking looking so hard But the more and more I look, the more I'm like, wow, there's a lot to learn here, right? Especially about myself and childhood abuse and how the fuck, why I'm the person that I am. So I'm going down all that rabbit hole. And at the same time, this girl is amping up my fucking hormone system by fucking calling, being panicked, being stressed and, and all this. and it's you know i just want to fucking rescue her because my god there's a little child in danger right like well no.
[2:00:12] Hang on who's the little child i mean she's.
[2:00:14] Inside of her so yes no the one inside of her that i can see this little fucking girl that calls me sometimes and calls me daddy right like that's a fucking head trip right there man um you know i said little girl's voice it's like the girl that was in my backyard and uh yeah it's a fucking head trip you know like there's multiple personalities that i'm interacting with.
[2:00:38] Okay let's let's take the religious approach okay.
[2:00:47] I'm listening is.
[2:00:48] God speaking to your virtue through her or is the devil speaking to your vices through her.
[2:00:55] Good question good question and i look through this and i can't find a hint of any sort of sexual attraction no no no i'm not talking.
[2:01:06] About that i'm not talking about that.
[2:01:07] Well that would be the temptation wouldn't it nope nope oh i have the the temptation of love nope.
[2:01:15] You can't love her because she's not virtuous i'm not saying you hate her i'm not saying she can never be.
[2:01:19] Virtuous but right now this is this is the real temptation Stef is the more and more i see um if my if all my insights and diagnoses are correct that what she needs most is a heavy dose of logic and reason she needs to listen to your podcast a whole bunch she needs a moral compass she doesn't have a moral compass she's lost in the woods with no map and no fucking compass crying for help and i can fucking hear those cries and i think i can help right like i think i could be like hey you need to listen to this guy you need to read these books you need to fucking stop panicking and learn how to breathe you need some meditative thing this is what i did right it might work for you too and i think she'd come out the other side pretty close to me depending on what she put in do you think that you can teach.
[2:02:08] Her hang on do you think that you can teach her self-control when you're out of control i.
[2:02:14] Can teach her the concept of it.
[2:02:19] But you can't model it.
[2:02:20] Because you're kind of out of control with this situation right oh but i noticed that i was out of control and took a step she can't notice that that's improvement right i can do this it's called a reality check i look and go hey what i'm thinking doesn't match what's going on or feelings right like it could get really mad at somebody and go that's not real right like i'm mad for no reason that's some fucking emotion that's just bubbled up out of nowhere that you know isn't actually justified so i can okay let's just ignore that right it's a false signal it is not reality that's a false signal um you know what i'm saying does that make sense nope.
[2:03:00] But i'll tell you this i've talked about saving your mother with the truth right.
[2:03:05] Yeah i.
[2:03:08] Mean your mother is older and she's sinned terribly in my view so when it comes to salvation, you should talk to your mother, does that make sense.
[2:03:22] Yeah so why are you drawn infinitely.
[2:03:25] More towards grandiose fantasies about saving this girl than you are towards having honest conversations with your parents and trying to get them to save their souls. or trying to help them save their souls by admitting wrongdoing and sin, and hopefully aiming to earn forgiveness.
[2:03:46] I would say because neither my mother or my father are calling me and interfering in my fucking life. Otherwise, I really wouldn't think about anybody.
[2:03:58] I'm not going to her. She keeps coming to me. I even blocked her a few times. I'm like, you're being inappropriate. You're breaking rules. you're breaking boundaries this is disrespectful um you know don't talk to me again without an apology um blocked all of her stuff she got through in an alternate number and i was like look at you know you don't seem to be putting in any effort with the the advice and the guidance that i've given you you're not you're not putting in any effort at all you're rude you uh you know you don't follow those fucking social norms um you know i need an apology and i need some effort so hand write me a two-page letter or don't talk to me again and she wrote a four-page letter and i was like oh my god okay you're at least putting in effort you're willing to try i can continue offering guidance right and i i've tried a million different ways and some things seem to help some things are falling short um i'm trying to teach her how to tell the difference between the fake shit in her head and the real shit in her head and i realized that you know i'm not as good as thought maybe although it took me maybe two days and i was under intense stress i can't you want to hear what my last two weeks have been like um like my whole employer employment uh.
[2:05:14] Situation kind of blew up uh there was a death at work a very beloved guy um the boss had to take time off his two assistants had to take time off and i've been filling in for everybody so So, I mean, uh, some of this was happening. I worked a 19 and a half hour day. I worked 13 days straight. Um, the, the shortest day, these were nights, actually not days.
[2:05:36] Sorry, who's taking care of your son?
[2:05:39] Uh, his mother. She lives down the street. Okay.
[2:05:44] So why, why are you working so hard when you have a little boy?
[2:05:49] Um, normally I would work seven days on and seven days off. So she would have a week and I have a week. That's, that's the schedule. That's what I work until there was a fatality and, uh, yeah, there's nobody else. So, okay. So you don't have.
[2:06:03] Any extra bandwidth at the moment for this young woman anyway.
[2:06:06] No and then i'm this is just it i'm highly stressed i'm in a extreme stress that i haven't been in in such a long time and normally i get to relax with my son and have fun and play and touch the grass and you know go to boxing do our do the stuff that we do and i've kind of missed that in my routine and i'm under a lot of additional stress with this girl phoning me and texting me and yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.
[2:06:35] Yes. I mean, do you want the answer?
[2:06:38] Yes. Yeah. Okay. This was supposed to be a day off and I got called into work. I literally walked in the door as I got your message. So, but yes, please tell me the answer.
[2:06:51] Disengage.
[2:06:54] Yeah.
[2:06:54] Just disengage.
[2:06:55] Well, she's going to die. 100% she's dead if I do. That's the thing is I know she's going to be dead. She might be dead right now. For all I know.
[2:07:04] Okay. So if she's going to die, you need to disengage so you don't get any more involved with someone who's going to die. Because that's going to interfere with you parenting your son.
[2:07:13] Isn't that that's that i'm gonna feel that shit really hard if i know and you know what that's gonna.
[2:07:19] Teach you don't get involved with crazy people when you're unstable yourself don't get involved.
[2:07:24] With crazy people i didn't know she was totally crazy for all i knew her aunt was a fucking total cunt and here this girl is in extreme need and nobody is gonna pay her any attention i i'd never met the aunt until that instant right um i'd only known the girl as a child, so i had no data i had to i had to at least get some data to know what's going on and there was nothing there that was okay so look look.
[2:07:53] Bro if you if you're just going to make excuses for everything i say i mean that's fine i mean but i just don't really see the point of the conversation like i'm trying to give you some feedback and i'm trying to give you some good advice, and i'm saying don't get involved with crazy people you're like well i didn't know it's like come on man it's been six months like you just you just make it up stuff here it's been six months you've had plenty of indication.
[2:08:13] That the woman is highly unstable right yes but nothing that was actually horrible until this month right until this month right here where she went to the city and started throwing herself into danger and i'm a hundred percent sure it is for my attention right she is she has tried to get me a few different ways and i wouldn't bite so now she's like well and what is she trying to.
[2:08:38] Get from you.
[2:08:38] Um Well, I don't know. Do you want to hear about BPD or not?
[2:08:46] I don't want to hear technical terms. Just talk to me like I don't know anything about this stuff and don't use any technical terms. What is she trying to get? Money? What is she trying to get from you?
[2:08:56] Connection. It's connection. It is her inner child looking for connection. Neither can I really have proper relationships. I do better because I have coping mechanisms. People like me. but i don't actually have too many super close friends right um especially in the local vicinity uh my closest friend is a hour and a half drive away okay so how is she trying to.
[2:09:23] Get connection from you by ignoring reasonable boundaries that you.
[2:09:28] Set up that is exactly what happens um because Because you're both basically a severe fear of being alone, right? Loneliness. That's almost the chief thing, right? Being alone, not having a proper relationship or period, any relationship. And you're also deathly afraid of having one because you know you're fucked up. So you can't let anybody get too close because if they look at you, they get scared and run away.
[2:09:59] Okay, let's jump back to technical terms, right? What is the, I mean, you've, you've done this study of, of psychology, right? So what?
[2:10:09] Two days crash course while I was working. So I'm no expert. Okay.
[2:10:13] What is the prognosis if you're right about borderline personality disorder? What is the prognosis?
[2:10:23] It depends, but if it's untreated, 13% suicide rate.
[2:10:31] Okay, have you not looked up the prognosis for borderline personality disorder? You don't know what that is? I'm not criticizing, I'm just asking.
[2:10:41] Go ahead okay.
[2:10:42] Uh i'm no expert but my understanding is it's not a fixable situation.
[2:10:49] No it's not that's why i am what i am because i built my defenses she can't be fixed traditionally she can build a moral system around her to stop herself from doing self-harm and actions that harm others and i've i've at least got the fucking material you know i can point her in the right direction and be like hey you should read upb have you tried fucking mere christianity this is a great book which i just sent her i don't know if she even got it or if she's dead but i was like hey watch this youtube video with.
[2:11:27] Doodles you know um fucking yeah you know it it she needs first she has to want help that's the first thing she has to know she has a problem and she has to want help she doesn't know either of those things she doesn't even know she has a problem i've been trying to get it in in a way that she can notice or or recognize but you know um and i know i'm ticking some things right like i i am i i'm you know she's interested um one of the things that uh was a big help for her was i you know i said um when when those emotions come up you need to look around and see if it's for something real and and if it keeps bugging you you can't force it there's no way you can stop feeling something you just have to look at it acknowledge it give it a name and say oh thank you for sharing right that's that's my way of doing it thanks for sharing i'll talk with i'll.
[2:12:31] But that doesn't seem to match reality right now. So I don't have time for you. Thanks for sharing. You're there. I see you. But, you know, not right now. I don't want to calm down. Being grateful. That's one improvement that I have seen. She was rude. You know, get her a cab ride home and she doesn't fucking thank you for it. Like, you called me at two in the morning claiming you're lost at a freaking who knows where in the big city. and you want a cab ride home so i get you a cab ride home and then you don't fucking say thank you right so count your blessings notice all the good things in your life and be appreciative for them um there's just so many little moral anyway that count your blessings just after that the first this is the first time i heard her actually sound happy when she phoned me the next day and she was going out and applying for jobs and she hadn't done anything before that so i'm like holy fuck, I did something, right? Like, it worked. All kinds of things, man. You know, fuck, Fanzu helps. If you don't know yourself and you don't know your enemy, you're going to fucking lose every battle.
[2:13:43] Okay, I need you to stop.
[2:13:46] Sorry.
[2:13:46] I mean, I need you to stop.
[2:13:48] Callebuster. Okay.
[2:13:49] I need you to stop.
[2:13:50] I'm sorry.
[2:13:53] How pretty is she?
[2:13:56] Eh. not that no uh average i suppose uh i think it's hard to tell because she wears baggy clothing but maybe a little overweight uh probably an eating disorder but i don't know um you know i uh i've only seen her as an adult once in my backyard six months ago and she was a disheveled mess um you know and she was again i don't i.
[2:14:25] Don't need i don't need.
[2:14:27] The filibuster.
[2:14:27] Okay so she's average looking okay now at the beginning of this conversation you didn't even really know how immoral your parents were.
[2:14:41] Yeah does that give you any.
[2:14:45] Pause that you'd missed that in your mid-40s, and you'd missed that your parents who handed you over to unholy child abusers for years, you had completely missed that that was immoral and that you needed to have, oh, there might be value having an honest conversation with them about that, right? You'd also missed that you had lied by omission to your girlfriends and not told them the truth about your history. So, given that, no, that's what you said, right? I don't want to re-litigate that.
[2:15:21] Right? I just want to say why, is because I actually didn't have Christian morality system built into it until after the separation. And I started looking at it and going, hey, yeah, honesty is super important. I knew it was important, but I didn't know it was that important. So, I had to adopt that later.
[2:15:43] Okay, you're just wasting my time. You're just wasting my time here. I won't have it. Okay, you knew lying was wrong. You didn't need God to tell you that, okay? And I'm not blaming you. I'm just saying that these are facts, right? So, you were very upset that the mother of your child had lied to you, but you hadn't processed or even noticed that you'd lied to her about your entire history by not telling her about the horrendous abuse you suffered as a child.
[2:16:10] Yeah, that's true.
[2:16:11] So, there's very important moral lessons over the course of this conversation, which is why I think the conversation is valuable, and I'm glad we're having it. But there are very important moral considerations that you were completely blind to, right, regarding your own complicity, regarding your mother's neglect and abuse of you, and her enablement of the abuse from your neighbors. It's the same thing with your father. so this had all been buried this at all and you'd missed all of this moral analysis of your own behavior and your parents behavior right not all of it right but but significant foundational portions of uh moral truths were invisible to you prior to like two hours ago right.
[2:16:50] I know i.
[2:16:52] Have no no i just i just is that is that a fair statement there were some important moral issues in your life that in your mid-40s you were still blind to up until about two hours ago, yes okay good so stop stop no i just just just give me the snows here right so what's amazing to me is that there's no humility in you like holy shit i missed some really important moral stuff about my life maybe i shouldn't be out lecturing other people about morals, Maybe I need to learn a lot more about the morals in my own life, and also your denial of holding your parents accountable, which has their souls skate to hell because you won't intervene and tell them the wrongs they did and give them a chance to make amends and repent. The fact that you are drugging your parents with compliance and positive feedback and vibes and no negative consequences, that's pretty bad for their souls, right? So the fact that there are moral issues in your life, as in my life, right? I mean, I get that, right? I mean, I'm not trying to lecture you from any guru place here. So what's amazing to me is that the moral revelations that you've got over the course of this conversation have in no way slowed down your moral pomposity and desire to lecture this girl on everything you know about being morals incarnate when you'd missed very important things about your own life.
[2:18:19] This is i'm not myself right now and i know that i this whole month or at least the last two weeks um i can feel myself changing and i don't know if it's good or if it's bad and the more i've been analyzing it okay i think you're not responding.
[2:18:37] Hang on hang on we're not having a conversation because you're not responding to what i'm saying you're going off on a filibuster or a.
[2:18:46] Tangent right you're not responding right okay what did i what point.
[2:18:49] Did i just make.
[2:18:50] That i missed the uh the, the huge moral gap that i had have um by uh not being 100 truthful with my parents with allowing them to seek forgiveness for all of their sins against me. And yeah, obviously my entire moral system is not that robust.
[2:19:27] And what does that mean relative to this girl?
[2:19:33] Yeah. My judgment is poor.
[2:19:44] No, it means you don't, if you're missing important and essential moral issues in your own life, you shouldn't be lecturing other people about virtue.
[2:19:51] Mm-hmm.
[2:19:53] Because you went straight from us talking about the moral issues in your life to, well, I can help this girl and she's going to be moral because I'm going to teach her morality. But you just learned that you missed in, you know, 40, mid-40, 40 and a half years, you missed important moral things, which happens, right? But it should give us some humility with regards to lecturing others if we've missed important things ourselves.
[2:20:19] Absolutely. But it's the choice that you have a choice to be good or to be bad. That is about the only freaking point that she, I think, that she needs to understand.
[2:20:32] No, but you don't believe that because all you give for your mother is excuses. So you missed that one too, You say, well, you have the choice to be good or bad Well, my mother had a bad childhood And my father was a drunk And he trained her well She's just a passive plaything of the gods Or something, right? So I'm with you. We have a choice to be good or bad. But right after hearing, you know, half hours of excuses about your mother's bad behavior, it's a little hard for me to take that seriously that you really embody that or believe that.
[2:21:09] Well, it's right action. That's all I really focus on is what I do, not so much what I think, because I have all kinds of crazy thoughts that are not moral, that are completely fucking horrible. um okay so if you have these if you have these.
[2:21:27] Crazy negative thoughts is it wise for you to be giving deep counsel to a woman who's already quite disturbed it sounds like.
[2:21:39] Well this is just it she has the same thing she all of her bad thoughts go out in the world right my bad thoughts stay in my head and what goes out in the world is good, right i don't good actions.
[2:21:54] Come from bad thoughts.
[2:21:55] No no but the thoughts and the emotions you don't have a lot of control over what you do with them is what you have control over how i right so it doesn't matter if in you know in my heart of hearts i want my my my son's mother dead for what she's done to me that's what i you know if i had if i had my way i would that is what is in my head is a murderous satanic rage but i do not put that out into the world i don't you sorry but you've not i mean hang.
[2:22:31] On sorry to interrupt when was the last time or i'm not saying want someone dead obviously i know you're not going to act on that but.
[2:22:38] No what.
[2:22:39] Uh when was the last time you felt that angry at your mother.
[2:22:42] Never never until you understand that right you understand i've never.
[2:22:50] Okay so like so you i don't know that you're in much position to be giving other people lectures about virtue and integrity if you've displaced potentially some anger from your mother towards other women.
[2:23:02] Yep a hundred percent okay so stop lecturing people.
[2:23:07] If you've still got if you still don't if you think that the person who's harmed you the most is not your mother and your father, but your ex, that's not correct.
[2:23:21] I can see that.
[2:23:22] Okay. So if you're not even sure about that and you feel great anger towards your ex, but you've never felt great anger towards your mother, who actually was responsible for protecting you as a child and failed in the worst conceivable ways, and then also as a teenager, then.
[2:23:38] Then I think you need to work on that stuff. And I think rather than trying to be a guru to someone else when things are still, you know, settling and getting clear in your own mind, trying to be a guru towards someone else when you're missing some, for reasons I can completely understand, that you're potentially missing some moral issues in your own life, it's, you know, you got to deal with your own stuff and not lecture other people now lecturing other people gives you relief from your own stuff because then you feel like you're in charge you're in control you have power you're a healer and there's a certain kind of grandiosity over there that that gets away from some of the smallness that maybe you feel sometimes but i don't think it's particularly sorry i'm still trying to talk here but uh i don't think that it is the best way to deal with some of that internal chaos is to try and, quote, fix someone else. Because you're also angry at this woman too, right? You're angry at this young woman for violating boundaries and not taking advice and putting herself in danger and manipulation and running through your boundaries. So you're angry at her, you're angry at your ex, but you're totally placid with your mother who handed you over to these terrible abusers when you were a kid. So I would say that it probably is time to, you know, I mean, deep breath time. I'm a big fan of talk therapy, as you know, and there are people who specialize in bipolar, sorry, in borderline personality disorder, and some of them have some decent success over time.
[2:25:06] So I think it's probably not the best thing in the world to get involved in this woman's life when things are still somewhat chaotic for you, which I understand, and I hugely sympathize with, of course, right?
[2:25:17] And I think it just comes back to not indulging your own particular preferences at the expense of your son, because all of this comes to some degree at the expense of your son. And your son is the person who deserves your full care, time, affection, love, and attention. And if you guide yourself by what your son needs, you really can't go wrong. And I think it is a little self-indulgent and a little grandiose. And I say this with sympathy, right? It's a little self-indulgent, a little grandiose to think that you're the Jesus healer who can wish and text people out of what you say by borderline personality disorder, which takes real expertise many years to even begin to ameliorate.
[2:26:02] But this is what is so exciting is that I didn't know I was a narcissist until I started looking at her. And I see all of that, that fake, the fake Messiah, fake fucking humility that I never saw in myself before. I didn't know that about me until two days ago. And I haven't even had a chance to process it yet. Right? Like I'm in the process of discovery. I didn't know that I had all these narcissistic traits and this fake freaking God complex in my head as a defense mechanism until I started studying her. That's what's so exciting for me is I'm learning so much about me. It's, I don't know.
[2:26:43] Do you think it's a healthy way to learn about yourself?
[2:26:46] Probably not.
[2:26:47] Okay, so then you shouldn't do it.
[2:26:50] Yeah.
[2:26:51] Right, I mean, your father using alcohol was not a good way to cope with his issues, so he probably shouldn't have done it, right? So if you recognize that this is negative for your son and not a healthy way to learn about yourself, then it's something you shouldn't do, right? I mean, that's just a willpower thing, right? I mean, I know it's tough, right? But it's just a willpower thing in that if it's not good for you and it's not good for your son, you have to stop.
[2:27:14] That's, yeah, I have my boundaries where I won't let that get crossed. I don't want to be alone with her in any place, right?
[2:27:24] No, no, no, no, no. You have to stop. Not boundaries or not being, like, stop. Like, stop.
[2:27:33] And just let her die?
[2:27:37] Well, you don't know that. Her family, you can certainly say to her, and you can say to her family, look, I'm not an expert. I don't know how to treat, if she has borderline personality disorder, like, that's a mental health specialty, right? It takes a long time, and not everyone makes it. So you can say, listen, I mean, if she has these, you know, I'm no expert, But if she has something like this, you know, I've looked up, here's some people. And but, you know, if somebody has appendicitis, I don't take it. But I don't know if you send them to the specialist, right?
[2:28:09] Absolutely. And that's been my goal is to get her into therapy. I already talked to her family about it. I've recommended what therapy is supposed to be best for her. But the first step is to have her admit that she has a problem and need help. And she can't even see that she has a problem because she's lost in her delusion.
[2:28:27] Okay so so if she can't admit that she has hang on hang on hang on hang on if she can't admit that she has a problem you can't help her exactly okay good so if you can't help her and it's bad for you and it's bad for your son you need to stop, And instead of trying to fix her, have an honest conversation with your parents.
[2:28:57] And what happens when she gets a hold of me in an hour and says, oh, wow, I read that thing you sent. I saw that. I read that book. I watched that video. I saw that podcast because I've sent everything in various ways because I don't know how she takes in information. And she goes, oh, I really do have a problem. What happens in that situation?
[2:29:19] Well i can say i i would love to talk uh i would love to talk this about you after you've been in therapy for six months but you really need to go and see a therapist i'm not an expert and i've you know i've given you a list go for it and then if you get access i would love to talk to you when you've been in therapy for six months but i i'm not an expert i can't solve this for you.
[2:29:38] Staff i already called it a a therapist for myself my appointment's november 11th that's the earliest i could get but i wouldn't have known i was crazy if i didn't look at her like.
[2:29:49] Okay did you hear what i said we'll be talking about you and your therapy oh you were asking me what do i do when she contacts me and i gave you a suggestion and you just completely talked like i didn't say anything.
[2:29:59] That six months after she's had therapy uh.
[2:30:04] I'd love to hear your progress after you've been in therapy for six months.
[2:30:14] What about my commitment to get this car with her grandfather.
[2:30:17] Well it seems like i'm gonna get the car and.
[2:30:20] Yeah and then she wants to jump in the car with him and go back that's what she's indicating to me.
[2:30:24] Okay so the grandfather can do all of that right.
[2:30:28] Well yeah but i have to drive him there so.
[2:30:30] Why do you have to drive in there.
[2:30:32] Well because i promised i made an arrangement.
[2:30:35] That's okay that's no problem though you can just say uh i'm busy at work and call them an uber right well.
[2:30:41] It's uh uh eight hour drive each way.
[2:30:47] Well i mean you're i mean if you've made a commitment to drive someone for eight hours uh i don't know get them a train ticket get them get buy them a flight i don't know i mean that i can't i can't magic that right yeah.
[2:30:58] I mean i.
[2:30:59] I wouldn't take a step forward to getting more involved in this stuff not until not until you've done some more therapy and i'm listen by the way like congratulations i'm thrilled that you're going to go and see a therapist i think that's that's wonderful and and a therapist of course will really help you with this stuff because i'm obviously no therapist but i think that's wonderful but uh as far as um i i wouldn't take a step i would find some other way uh to deal with it or you know there are lots of other family members who can help right there's lots of people who can do that eight hour drive it's not all on you You're not God. You don't have to, you know, blink so that the sun goes down, right? So they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out.
[2:31:36] Yeah. Hmm.
[2:31:44] And she's going to lean on you. She's going to try and put pressure on you. She's, you know, you have become some sort of, there's been some sort of intertwining here that doesn't sound particularly healthy to my amateur eye.
[2:31:54] No.
[2:31:55] But, you know, and it's going to be tricky. That's why you try not to get involved in these kinds of situations. Because they get kind of sticky, right?
[2:32:04] Yeah. No, it's a fucking pseudo-parental relationship is more or less, you know, she's looking for a replacement dad. or mom, I don't know, and picked me, probably because I'm a pretty good dad. I don't know.
[2:32:22] Okay, good. Well, then focus on being a good dad and make sure that you don't do anything that's negative for your kid. All right. Is there anything else you, I think we've talked for a good old amount of time.
[2:32:31] Is there anything else that you want to mention at the end? And I really do appreciate the conversation. And I, you know, obviously I admire your care and concern for this woman. I'm incredibly sorry for what happened to you as a kid. And obviously you've made some incredible strides with regards to to how you've matured and you've avoided so many of the mistakes that your parents have made that that's enormously to be admired in my view.
[2:32:52] I also know that i'm not right i don't fit in anywhere right nobody except for my son that is the only relationship where i actually feel like it's a real relationship um he's the only one who really loves me um so So I'm just, I'm, yeah, I have a deep set of loneliness as well. And I see that same loneliness in her. And that is, yeah, from being abandoned by your fucking parents and just feeling alone. And that's, yeah, it's impossible to deal with. There's all those emotions. You have to do something with them. And in her case, she lashes out. She hurts people. She hurts herself. She does reckless behavior. I used to do all of those things, right? All of those things. That was me. I used to fucking sleep with every woman I could like before I left high school over a hundred and it got worse, right? Like ridiculous, um, ridiculous, um, just horrible self-harming behavior. And if I just want her to see what she's doing and know that she can choose something different, you know, and make her understand that it's her choice. she doesn't have to act on those feelings that comes up, right? Just because you feel it doesn't mean you have to put it out into the world. That's all I really want her to grasp. And from there, she'll be okay, I think.
[2:34:22] Well, I mean, it sounds like you're committed to helping her understand that. And obviously, that's your choice. And I certainly wish you the best with that approach. I mean, I don't have any magical answers. And I'm certainly not right about anything in any foundational way with regards to these conversations. So I obviously wish you the very best with what you choose with this relationship and with others.
[2:34:43] One of the things I did want to ask, which was before the call started, was, does any of that resonate with you, with your experience with childhood trauma? I know you've had a lot of proper talk therapy, and I haven't. I've just been going it on my own, like I've done with everything my whole life. But did you put up a wall of your own moral? I mean, you developed an internal moral code on your own. universal preferable behavior is a fucking godsend to people like me, right? Like, hey, a way to navigate the world. You know, every tool I can find to help me navigate the world, I latch onto like it's a life raft. And yeah, did you go through that?
[2:35:29] When you say that, I'm not sure what you mean.
[2:35:32] Did you just get me? what did you do with all of your negative emotions how did you become the person you are from where you started out at.
[2:35:42] Oh yeah no but i i always knew i disliked my mother i mean i was i was pretty aware of that so i i didn't have the uh i love her and she's one sorry you just asked me a question and then the moment i start to answer it you start to talk, sorry i mean no no get your thought out.
[2:35:57] Oh i i see you realize that your mother was evil and And I didn't. So you, you know, you didn't have this weird thing. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's different circumstances.
[2:36:10] Yeah, it's just different. It's not, I didn't have any particular additional wisdom or whatever. I just, and also my mother didn't have any real social support. I mean, people, you know, kind of saw that she was nuts. And then again, she was institutionalized in my early to mid-teens for a while. So it was, it was pretty clear. It was, I didn't have any particular big insight. It was just pretty clear. So, all right.
[2:36:33] Yes, but you didn't have all of those negative emotions to deal with after all of your abuse? How did you deal with it?
[2:36:44] How did I deal with negative emotions from being abused?
[2:36:47] Yeah, just childhood trauma. Everybody has childhood trauma.
[2:36:51] Well, that's a big question, and it's not something that I'm going to talk about right at the end of the conversation, because that's a very big question. And listen, that's fine. Maybe I'll talk about that. Sorry, I keep trying to answer these questions, and then you keep talking in my ear at the same time.
[2:37:05] I'm sorry.
[2:37:05] You know, it's kind of tough to complain about loneliness and then over-talk people when they're trying to answer a question you've asked, right? It's annoying behavior, just, you know, by the by, you know, because if you want to have better relationships with people, don't ask them a big question and then overtook their answer. So maybe I'll do a show about that. I appreciate the question and I appreciate the interest. And congratulations on doing a great job with what happened with you as a kid. And I hope that you'll have honest conversations with your parents. And congratulations again on getting into talk therapy. I think that is a wonderful, wonderful step. It was great for me. And I'm sure it'll be fantastic for you as well. and congratulations on peaceful parenting and focusing on being such a great dad. That also is to your entire credit. And I look forward to hearing how things are going.
[2:37:50] Oh, and I really appreciate your books. Really, the present, the future, almost peaceful parenting. I've been through them all. I really do appreciate it. And I wish that it was more evident that my life was better, but it is what it is.
[2:38:06] You'll get there. Thanks, Emile. Talk to you soon.
[2:38:09] Thank you. Bye.
[2:38:10] Bye.
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