0:00 - The Dating Market Realities
1:02 - Personal Journey and Manosphere Introduction
3:24 - Family History and Father's Absence
4:13 - Parents' Marriage and Divorce
7:19 - Unraveling Mother's Narrative
35:46 - Betty's Frustration with Lack of Answers
38:42 - Uncovering the Truth Behind Family History
46:56 - Unveiling Conflict Between Needs and Mother's Feelings
48:27 - Prioritizing Mother's Needs Over Legitimate Needs
50:58 - Delving into Insight Before Action
1:06:43 - The Importance of Loyalty and Conflict Resolution
1:11:48 - Pursuing Legitimate Needs with Mother
1:15:44 - Confronting Betrayal and Seeking Truth
1:22:06 - Schrodinger's Feminist: Playing Baby, Demanding Authority
1:25:56 - Recognizing Free Will and Accountability
1:33:22 - The Balancing Act of Holding Accountable
1:37:42 - Treating with Respect vs. Contempt
1:40:03 - Childhood Trauma and False Accountability
1:52:35 - Shallow Relationships and Avoiding Accountability
2:01:41 - Confronting Mother and Embracing Free Will and Standards
2:17:39 - Dishonesty with Mother
2:31:27 - Evolutionary Mating Traits
2:32:27 - Qualities Attracting a Mate
2:41:45 - Importance of Virtue in Love
2:45:28 - Confronting Personal Dishonesty
A young man opens up to Stefan about his struggles in the dating world, leading him to explore the "manosphere" due to his difficulties. Their conversation delves into the caller's experience with plastic surgery, his complicated relationship with his father, and his mother's history with relationships. They unpack the impact of being raised primarily by a single mother, the challenges he faced, and the emotional journey he embarked on.
The caller and podcast host further discuss the caller's upbringing and his connection with his mother. Despite financial support from his mother and her professional success serving as inspiration, they touch on the lack of emotional depth and meaningful conversations between them. They explore the consequences of differing values on potential relationships, emphasizing the significance of communication and mutual understanding for building meaningful connections.
Stefan shares his concerns and values regarding potential marriage and family dynamics, highlighting the importance of understanding a partner's background. The conversation shifts to examining the caller's mother's past relationships, focusing on identifying red flags and dysfunctional behaviors. Stefan stresses the need to address personal needs within relationships and emphasizes growth and resolution as essential elements for healthy partnerships.
The caller and I delve into the concept of monogamy from an evolutionary perspective, considering societal impacts of family structures and how early experiences with parental figures shape adult relationships. We navigate between discussions on the caller's relationships with his mother and potential partners, emphasizing communication, agency, and the intricacies of navigating familial dynamics as adults.
Exploring the caller's relationship with his mother, we reflect on how her behavior has influenced his life choices. We address the importance of recognizing and addressing these effects, encouraging the caller to overcome his fear of rejection and to prioritize his own journey of self-discovery and independence. Stefan underlines the significance of holding adults accountable in relationships and the detrimental effects of avoiding responsibility on personal growth and interpersonal connections.
The caller shares his struggle with self-esteem and relationships, prompting a conversation on the importance of honesty, the role of physical appearance in attraction, and evolutionary genetics in mate selection. Stefan advocates for focusing on character rather than genetic traits for meaningful connections, challenging the caller to prioritize self-improvement and authenticity in relationships for attracting genuine bonds.
Stefan challenges the caller to be truthful with his mother, emphasizing the value of emotional authenticity and integrity in relationships. He discusses the harm that can stem from sacrificing honesty due to fear and stresses self-ownership and integrity as foundational for forming genuine connections. The conversation concludes with Stefan encouraging the caller to update him on his journey toward more meaningful and honest relationships.
[0:00] Good morning, Steph. What advice, if any, would you give to a young man in the current dating market where two out of three men are chronically single or have little to no friends? The competition for women is getting so tough that men are resorting to makeup and plastic surgeries. Social media is filled with mogging and looks maxing content. Blackpill is the idea that your genetics determine your path in life. IQ, looks, height, and even work drive are mostly genetic. Yes, we still have free will, but if you try to exit the parameters your genetics set for you, you will get an insane amount of pushback, ostracism, and discrimination. With this in mind, it's not surprising that there is a doomer culture thriving in the youth. This conversation can be really eye-opening for your younger viewers such as myself. since I want to get into a more detailed discussion about this. I appreciate your back and forth with me. It was last Wednesday. Hopefully, this conversation will clear things up. Thank you for your time and have a wonderful day.
[1:02] Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And of course, I do have some real sympathies for people who are in this situation. The daily market is obviously challenging. challenging uh whether it's challenging more obviously now or whether it was the same in the past but more hidden that's you know maybe another topic but why don't you tell me a little bit about your journey in the dating market and what's happened or not happened and how you got into the manosphere and that kind of stuff.
[1:34] Well um i got into the manosphere when i was like in the middle of high school more like uh just as a as a hobby more like it's very interesting to hear it's like, oh, I can get some tips and tricks for the future. I got into you. I was a communist back then, and then you got me more into the free market side of things. Thank you for that. Robert Leonardus By the end of high school.
[1:59] I got into Blackfield constant. It's more like, uh, it's my, it's after winter break. I'm like, Holy shit. It hits me like a ton of bricks. Like I'm almost out of high school and like never had a girlfriend in high school, never spoken, never held hands with a woman. It's like, what the hell is happening? Then I got into Blackfield constant from there. Then, you know, I got all the statistics like, Oh, it's looks, you need to be this, this tall. And then it's like, and so I went into, to college and i'm like okay let me implement some of this stuff like i'm getting a better haircut face care routine stuff like that i started trying to talk to women more often and basically i tried multiple different times and it just it all turns into like they're all extremely flaky like they'll talk with you one way and then oh let's meet up let's do something it's like oh i can't i'm sick, something something came up like it it's just a disaster from then on and then.
[3:01] Because my mother well she i don't know she doesn't understand this stuff like i tried talking to her about it she doesn't really get it at all she just gives me like boomer advice it's like oh just go on a dating app or something like that so i just kind of i didn't give up on dating but i'm like i need to do something more drastic and this is where i i thought about doing plastic surgery.
[3:25] I dropped out of college after doing it for one year. I joined the military.
[3:31] I did that, saved up a bunch of money, got out the military, got plastic surgery, and now I'm here.
[3:42] I guess there's somebody missing from the equation, right?
[3:47] Yeah, dad.
[3:48] Yeah, yeah. You're all about that.
[3:51] He isn't there, and I haven't spoke with him probably for almost 15 years. I'm not originally from America. I'm from Eastern Europe, and I moved away from there when I was eight.
[4:08] Well, you were moved away from there.
[4:10] Yeah, yeah.
[4:10] It's not like you made some choice there, right?
[4:12] Yeah, yeah.
[4:14] Okay, got it. Now, what happened with your parents' marriage? What happened with your father? You're in your 20s now?
[4:23] Yeah, I'm in my early 20s.
[4:25] Oh, your 20s. Okay. So what happened with your parents' marriage?
[4:30] Well, when my mother had me at three months old, she found out that my father was cheating on her with another woman. and after three years she she tolerated she told him to stop don't do it blah blah blah and then when i was three they finally divorced when my mother found out he had a kid with that other woman so after that she divorced them and then like i i just had um on and off thing with him like you'll pick me up on weekends sometimes he'll just go do something he'll buy me something Nothing crazy.
[5:07] So you're in your mom's language. I hope you know that.
[5:11] I know. I know.
[5:12] So what do I mean by that?
[5:15] Vague? No. Elusive?
[5:19] No. Do you know how long your parents were dating before your mom became pregnant?
[5:27] They were dating since she was in, I think, latter half of high school. so like three years i think.
[5:35] Right okay so uh let me tell you uh chickology 101 all right or dysfunctional chickology 101 so your mother's language is that she found out right yeah what why is that a woman's language a dysfunctional woman's language she's.
[5:58] Not not taking responsibility because she's not telling me why she picked them she just oh i don't know where he turned bad and evil and that's when i had.
[6:06] So tell me what what is your mother's language what what stories has she told you about the most foundational decision in her life like the most foundational decision in any woman's life is who she has unprotected sex with there's nothing that there's not like where she lives the job she has the education she has none of that means squat, compared to the most fundamental decision of who she has unprotected sex with or who she has procreative sex with, right? Because we can say, oh, there was a condom, but the condom could break and blah, blah, blah, right? So the most foundational decision, and it is a decision outside, of course, of sexual assault. So the most foundational decision a woman is ever going to make in her life, the most essential decision that anyone in society ever makes, right?
[6:57] Right. Is is who you have procreative sex with. Now, of course, we can say, well, yes, but the man is doing it. Yeah. But we all kind of know that men are fairly indiscriminate hound dogs. And, you know, we'll if given the opportunity in general. Right. We'll do that. Now, that doesn't mean that the man is not responsible. It just means that traditionally women have evolved to be the gatekeepers.
[7:20] uh men ask out and women say yes or no that's just the way it's evolved and all of our sort of psychology and biology is associated with that so but just to talk about your mother, who she chose to have which is you know why i'm talking to you because otherwise you wouldn't be here who she chose to have procreative sex with it's the most foundational decision of her life, yeah and what is your mother's story about how she became a mother how do you have any siblings no okay actually i.
[7:53] Do from my father's side.
[7:55] I assume you're not really in touch with them though right not at all okay okay so so the most foundational thing that ever happened and i mean i've been a dad now for like 15 and a half years so um there's no no bigger change in your life. Getting married is nothing compared to becoming a parent in terms of biggest changes in your life. So, What is your mother's story? And, you know, really get behind it. Try not to judge it. I'm sure she's told you this story a million times about her life and how it came to be that she was a mother and all of that. So tell me the story from her standpoint.
[8:35] I mean, I'll be honest with you, Steph. Every time I try to prone into that, she really does not want to talk about it. She starts deflecting, changing the topic.
[8:45] No, no, I'm not talking about the honest stuff. I'm talking about her narrative.
[8:49] No her narrative it's oh he was a good guy and then one day he flipped and every time i try to do more inquiry into that she doesn't.
[8:59] Just say that right that there has to be more like give me the details of of her story or has she just said he was a good guy he flipped and that's that's it you get like.
[9:11] It's pretty much yes pretty much she would almost instantly try to deflect and change the topic. I tried multiple, like three different times to talk about her past, and it's such a hard thing to talk about. Like, I need to pull every sentence out of her. But like, she does say, oh, he was a good guy. Like, she had no... It came out of nowhere. Like, she would help him a lot with his studies, blah, blah, blah. Like, she thought he was a good guy.
[9:41] So she was a saint and a martyr, he just flipped?
[9:46] Pretty much. She never was like, oh, I could have done this better, I should have watched out for this. It was never that.
[9:53] Well, no, I'm not talking about the part wherein she takes responsibility, because I assume that hasn't happened. I'm talking about the part where she says, I mean, anything. Like, my mother has talked to me, and your mother maybe obviously is different, right? But my mother had talked to me a lot about my father and some of it, you know, it wasn't all negative. She did talk about his positive qualities and so on. But she very much was the victim of a cruel man who just wouldn't love her in the way that a decent man would, whatever kind of stuff, right? So, yeah. Over the years, have you gotten any information other than he was a nice guy who flipped? And I'm, you know, if there isn't any, I won't obviously keep drilling for oil in the swimming pool, but.
[10:49] I wish I could give you more. I wish, but that's all I can give you. Like me and my mother, we don't talk about anything deeply at all ever. I need to bring it up. And then it's such a slog fest. It's like, yeah, it's not worth my effort. Okay.
[11:04] Okay. And what does your father say about this? Or has your father said anything about this?
[11:09] I have no idea what my father's stance on this situation is.
[11:13] So your father never talked about his marriage or your, his, would they marry? They were married?
[11:20] Yes, they were officially married and officially divorced.
[11:23] Okay. So your father has never said anything about any of this?
[11:29] No what i could tell you is when i when i moved to america my father did try to take away uh, child support from my mother multiple times and the court denied him i don't know if that tells you anything or they try they try to keep me from moving to america too legally but how often.
[11:51] Were you seeing your father before you moved to you were moved to america.
[11:56] Like um maybe once a month and sorry how.
[12:00] Old were you eight or nine when you moved to america.
[12:03] Yeah i was eight eight.
[12:04] Okay and did you want to move to america.
[12:10] I personally didn't but like i don't understand what america is you know i was telling all my classmates oh i'm going to england because they speak they speak english all.
[12:20] Right right right Right. So why did you, why did your mother move to America?
[12:26] Uh, she won a green card and again, opportunities here are better. That's what I'm assuming.
[12:35] Oh, so your mother's never told you why you moved to America?
[12:39] I mean, it's the typical story, better opportunities, better lifestyle, like your typical American dream.
[12:47] Okay. And what was your mother's dating history? Sorry, how old were you? Remind me how old you were when your parents separated? Three?
[12:55] Yeah.
[12:56] Okay. So what was your mother's dating history? I guess three onwards for you.
[13:03] In Eastern Europe, I have no idea. When we came here...
[13:09] But there weren't, like, men around?
[13:11] No, no, no. No, no, never.
[13:13] Okay, got it.
[13:14] But when we came to America, she would date... multiple rich guys. On and off.
[13:26] She's pretty, right?
[13:27] Yeah.
[13:29] How pretty? I mean, when she was younger. seven eight ah okay so kind of desperate rich guys okay yeah.
[13:40] Yeah that's like.
[13:41] No today to seven with a with a kid that's not super rich guy behavior right i mean leonardo dicaprio ain't taking a middle-aged seven with a kid right of.
[13:51] Course not he doesn't have to.
[13:52] Okay yeah.
[13:53] But it was not all of them were rich there were some like average joes that's when she got older surprisingly.
[14:00] Yeah okay so yeah now sorry go ahead.
[14:04] And now she's dating some average Joe.
[14:08] And what would you did she have any long-lasting relationships no and how long would they last I.
[14:19] A year or two.
[14:21] Oh, okay.
[14:22] This current one's like three, I think. Three years.
[14:26] And this may be the distance, right? She may go the distance here, right?
[14:31] Yeah, I mean, you know, the time is ticking. It's like now or never.
[14:36] What do you mean? Oh, because she's aging out?
[14:39] Yeah. I can tell. Like gaining weight, you know?
[14:46] Oh, okay. All right, got it, got it. You don't have to give me her age, but was your mother a young woman when she had you?
[14:54] Yes, in her early 20s.
[14:57] Okay, okay. Right, so the wall, right? The wall is real. Okay. And do you know why your mother's relationships failed?
[15:09] Else one of the first ones that i can remember of it's because the parents of the guy they were like hardcore jews and because my mother isn't jewish they told no we're not gonna bless this marriage or this relationship he can't he can't do it so that ended that way another one is my mother caught the second millionaire guy in a cafe with talking with another woman, oh another good.
[15:40] Guy who turned mysteriously.
[15:43] Yeah yeah yeah okay and there's this other one she gave the guy like thousands of dollars he was from another country I think she just had enough of his nonsense because he would constantly like lie, he'll make things sound way better than they actually are and then just never come through with anything, And that ended in that way.
[16:10] Okay. So sometimes she gets the money. Sometimes she gives the money.
[16:15] Yeah.
[16:16] Or she gives the money she got from the other guys. And your mom worked or did she date?
[16:23] Uh, she works.
[16:25] And what field did she work in?
[16:27] She's, uh, in the nursing field.
[16:30] Oh no. Sorry.
[16:34] Why?
[16:35] Well, I mean, I love nurses when I'm in the hospital, but I've never date one.
[16:41] That is the funny part. It's like the most compassionate people seem to be not so compassionate in the.
[16:48] Well, I mean, most likely to cheat and, you know, it's kind of unstable. It's sort of a, there's kind of an instability to it.
[16:56] Yeah.
[16:57] Because nurses channel all of their sort of maternal instincts into institutions, which is not good for pair bonding. Anyway, that's a topic for another time. So, what's, when you were growing up, I guess, single son of a single mother, I mean, that's a risk factor, right? I mean, in terms of dating and so on. Like, don't have siblings to, you pair bonded with the mother, no father around, that's a risk factor for dating. And how did your mother discipline you when you were growing up, if she did?
[17:37] She rarely disciplined me. Like, overall, like, I was a good kid overall, but, like, the few times she would discipline me like she would take away my psp or like i'll go stand in a corner for like an hour or something uh when i was she.
[17:52] Wasn't corporal punishment mom right.
[17:54] And this happened really rarely like maybe once a year like almost like honestly after my once i got big enough like where she can't hit me anymore like i almost never got punished.
[18:08] So, like, once a year she would hit you?
[18:12] Yeah, well, like, she would flip out sometimes, like, oh, why are you this way, blah, blah, blah, like, start swinging her hands out, and, like, one day I just held her both of her hands, she got, like, this shock, oh, my God, what is she doing? Then I pushed her back, she's like, oh, how dare you, and then she...
[18:26] Yeah, yeah, how dare you use force on a family member after beating you 15 times or hitting you 15 times, right?
[18:31] Yeah, like, slaps, like, nothing, nothing, like, leaves bruises or anything.
[18:35] Right, right.
[18:36] After that, there was none of that.
[18:39] Right. And what about instruction on how to live, on what to do, how to be? Did you get any of that?
[18:53] Nothing life-related, but there's a bunch of nonsense micro stuff. It's like, oh, I was in your car and you didn't have your settings properly. Stuff that pisses me off, it's like, who cares? She micromanages sometimes. But never, oh, this is how you need to act, or this is what you need to do for friendships or something like that. Nothing, any of that. It's like, throw the baby in the water and learn how to swim, or nah, I guess.
[19:20] Okay. And what about, you hit puberty, you get interested in girls, and what happens with your mother? or did she give you any dating advice?
[19:36] No. Honestly, throughout high school, we live in the same house, but we're in two different rooms. We're just doing our own thing all the time. We rarely interacted.
[19:51] Okay, so I'm trying to figure out what actual parenting did she do?
[19:56] Nothing much.
[19:58] Okay, well, what parenting did she do?
[20:03] Hmm. Like she would tell me, oh, you got to help out the family, take out the trash, wash the dishes here and there.
[20:09] Okay. So that's like being a boss. But what parenting did she do?
[20:15] Define parenting.
[20:18] Parenting is teaching, instructing, coaching, helping kids in life, in life transitions, giving them advice, listening to their problems, trying to give, you know, positive and helpful feedback, teaching them morality and integrity and, you know, parenting.
[20:36] Well, none.
[20:39] Okay, got it. So she's like incubator roommate. mate yeah like i i.
[20:44] Had i had you for like the morality stuff.
[20:49] Okay and what are your what's your relationship like with your mother now.
[20:54] I mean it got better after the military but like anytime i try to do talk any like something that's not like oh what's the weather today oh let's go to the beach or something like nothing think there's nothing no deep conversations are happening.
[21:10] I don't know that though i mean it's funny how people have like shallow and deep and i kind of understand it but you just you can you not you can't really be honest with her if you're bored with the weather and whatever right can you say you know gee this is kind of this is kind of boring i'm used to a little more stimulation i'd like to talk about things that are slightly more important yeah.
[21:34] She would feel about it's like oh oh, why are you so negative? You're always bringing me negative emotions. Like, be a good son. You'll never find a woman if you act this way, blah, blah, blah.
[21:45] Okay, so she's complaining about you, and she raised you.
[21:49] Yeah. I tell her that.
[21:52] She's not exactly got on the old responsibility bandwagon at any time since you were born.
[21:58] Yeah, that's what it looks like.
[22:00] Well, no, I don't want to misinterpret it if I'm missing something. I mean, does she say, help me understand the negative thoughts? I mean, I raised you. I chose where you live. I chose the values you were exposed to, and I chose the values you were instructed on. Help me understand where the negative stuff is coming from. I mean, any responsibility for parenting, or is it just kind of complaining?
[22:27] Complaining uh complaining okay endless complaining right.
[22:33] Right okay i bet your relationship is okay right i.
[22:41] Wouldn't call it okay it's like mediocre right like okay it's like okay it's like six out of ten mediocre is like seven four out of ten so.
[22:49] You're like at a four out of ten.
[22:50] Yeah okay all right that gets better it's better than like you know we're just in the same house not never almost never interacting it's better than that now but like that's how you live in the same house not anymore i moved out okay.
[23:06] When did you move out.
[23:08] Uh a year and uh almost two years ago okay.
[23:11] Got it got it all right and what are uh what are women men for what what is the value of women for you like you want a date uh you want a girlfriend and uh why what what what are the values or what value do women bring to your life.
[23:31] Well i want to have children you need a woman for that you want to have a person you can rely on you have your tell your secrets to tell your personal feelings to someone you can trust like do or die, a companion.
[23:49] Well except for the having kids part you could get that from a male friend right.
[23:57] I mean, again, I'm a virgin, so maybe, I don't know what I'm talking about, but, like, when you're, I'm not having sex with a friend, and, like.
[24:05] No, no, no, I said except for the kids part, which is involved in sex.
[24:09] Yeah, but, like.
[24:10] In terms of, like, having someone you can tell your secrets to, somebody who's going to be loyal, and so on. I mean, you could theoretically get that from a male friend.
[24:18] Yeah, but, like, there's no intimacy there. Maybe I'm overblowing what intimacy is, since I never had it. but like i'm thinking it'll change up the dynamics of their relationship.
[24:29] Okay so uh someone to tell your secrets to who's going to be loyal and someone you can impregnate is that right yeah how does that sound to you when it's coming back from what i'm saying.
[24:43] It sounds pretty terrible.
[24:44] Uh why is that it's.
[24:47] Like uh selfish you're not providing value to the other person.
[24:51] Well i mean is it fair to say that the secret sharing is uh would be mutual right she could share her secrets with you and be loyal and so on yeah.
[25:04] Yeah most of the stuff is mutual yeah.
[25:07] I mean you'd be providing her with children she'd be providing you with children right yeah uh you sound kind of bored by this part of the conversation it's totally fine if If you are, I just want to check into it.
[25:18] I'm excited.
[25:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[25:23] I'm sorry.
[25:24] No, no, I'm not asking you to apologize. If this is not interesting, we can certainly move to another topic.
[25:30] No, no, no, no. It's interesting. I do sound melancholy. I know that.
[25:37] No, but you haven't. Until I start asking what value women provide, you haven't sounded melancholic. i suspect your mother's personality is moving into the conversation, yeah mother doesn't provide you value and i'm asking what value do women provide, and you're like yeah well yeah right the melancholic is perhaps your mother's personality arising within you and saying we don't like this line of questioning, All right, let me ask you more directly. What value does your mother provide in your life?
[26:18] Financial.
[26:21] She paying part of your bills?
[26:24] She helps you with the yes.
[26:27] Okay.
[26:31] But when it comes to emotionally, like person to talk to.
[26:36] No, no, I'm not. Just overall value that your relationship with your mother provides to your life.
[26:46] Outside of financially she's definitely like her story is kind of inspiring like she she came to america alone she's very like financially why she's very successful very successful as a nurse, she's above a nurse now okay.
[27:06] So she's she's very competent and she's like head of nursing seeing whatever it is okay it doesn't so she's she's done very well financially.
[27:14] Yeah like it's it is inspiring like you tell the story it's like who almost nobody does did what she did alone, like no assistance well that's that's kind of it so.
[27:31] The inspiring part for you is her professional or financial success.
[27:36] Yeah. Like if she could do it, I could do it too. Like what's stopping me?
[27:44] Okay. Okay. So what value does your mother provide to your life other than some vague inspirational stuff and some money?
[27:58] Oh, that's a hard question. I can't think of anything else.
[28:07] I don't want to rush you.
[28:10] Please do.
[28:11] No, no, I don't want to rush you. If you've been taking time to think of the value that your mother provides is an important question.
[28:24] She does care for me. She always calls me, how are you doing? Are you fed?
[28:31] No, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. she won't talk about the important things that you want to talk about that you need to hear your origin story what happened with your father right yeah so if she cared for you and you do you said on multiple occasions you've asked her for these details but she won't provide them right, correct so i'm trying to square that with she cares for you now the fact that she's concerned about you eating okay whatever right i mean that's like a pet right did the kitten eat today right, but caring about you not not your body or your stomach right but wouldn't caring about you mean that you have really important questions that she needs to answer and she's not providing them that would be the opposite of caring about you wouldn't it.
[29:21] Yeah it's like a more of an accessory not a human being.
[29:25] Okay so and.
[29:28] I do feel that way sometimes.
[29:30] Okay um tell me more about that.
[29:32] Like i'm just kind of there it's like she popped out a kid and it's like oh that's a like check mark that time to do something else i want to do.
[29:41] And how how well would you say she understands you?
[29:46] Zero out of 10.
[29:48] Zero, okay.
[29:52] We would start conversations, but we're in two different modes of thought, and we're just either talking past each other or I'm trying to tell her, I'm not talking about this.
[30:04] Sorry, what do you mean?
[30:06] Let me think of an example.
[30:09] I'm not saying, saying i don't i just i always want to make sure what what the other person means in the conversation so this isn't like well what do you mean like it's not any kind of aggressive thing i'm genuinely like what do you mean by that for.
[30:20] Example like the way i understand the world versus her understanding of the world so like when it comes to dating like to her it's like oh just go out and find somebody and i'm like no it doesn't work that way like it doesn't just land in your lap but like she is a female and it's i do understand why she thinks this way but like for a male it wouldn't apply lie the same way you.
[30:41] Understand why she thinks this way i'm tell me what she so she says just basically be out there and people will date you yes.
[30:48] Yes like she.
[30:50] Doesn't i mean really, yeah so she she views you as a female i'm trying i'm sort of trying to understand this.
[31:04] That's what I tried to explain to her. It's like, no, we're different. It doesn't work.
[31:07] You can't explain to a nurse and a mother that boys are different from girls.
[31:12] Maybe if you're a bad nurse or a mother, maybe that's what you need to do.
[31:16] I'm sure. Look, she didn't succeed as a nurse by confusing genders, right?
[31:20] Of course not.
[31:23] So I'm trying to sort of understand this. So she doesn't understand men?
[31:32] Probably not.
[31:33] Or isn't curious about men or doesn't want to understand or listen to the man's experience or something like that?
[31:40] Definitely not. She doesn't do inquiry into my life that often. And when she does, it's like surface level stuff. It's funny, her friend, she isn't a nurse. Actually, I don't remember what she works as, but it's like she would bring up the fact, oh, do you have a girlfriend? Oh, you're this old now. you should have a girlfriend now. And my mom would try to shut down that topic immediately.
[32:08] Your mom would shut down the topic of why don't you have a girlfriend?
[32:13] Yeah, she'd be like, oh, he'll find it. It'll work out one day. And then she's like, oh, look, this person, he found a girlfriend at 26. Like, you just need to wait a little. You just need to grow up. Like, you need to mature more.
[32:27] So why do you think your mother doesn't want to have any examination of why you don't have a girlfriend?
[32:38] Well, if we can examine it, we can come up with solutions. And if I've solved the issue, it's going to be competition for her.
[32:45] Right. And that's not generic, by the way. That's not like all women will resent their son's new girlfriend. That's not the case. I mean, I've met lots of families where the parents are delighted when the kid finds a partner.
[33:01] I would be delighted, too. Like, finally, get out of here.
[33:06] Get out of where?
[33:08] Like, you can get out the house. You could start your own.
[33:10] No, but you're at the house.
[33:12] Well, not her house.
[33:15] I'm sorry. I thought you moved out two years ago.
[33:18] Yeah, I don't live with my mother anymore.
[33:20] So get out of her house is referring to who?
[33:23] No i'm just saying in general like i saw like.
[33:26] Oh it's gonna start okay sorry yeah i don't know when you're switching between you and generic person okay my bad all right so does your mother have any kind of sense that your values are quite different from hers.
[33:45] Um, I think she does, but it's her excuses like, oh, I just need to grow up a bit. I need to experience life a bit more. And like, I'll just eventually align with hers.
[34:00] Okay. So she has very, very different values are very different from hers.
[34:04] Yeah.
[34:06] Okay. So if you meet a girl, let's go waspy and call her Betty. Right. So you meet some girl, her name is Betty. Now, Betty's values align with yours. She's interested in depth and thought and life and questions, and she's philosophical and all of that, right? And then Betty meets your mom. How does that go?
[34:38] It's not going to go well. It's going to be a very surface-level conversation. conversation yeah my mom's probably going to be i don't know if internally happy but she'll seem happy externally and i'm the girl's going to be like yeah your mom's kind of vapid.
[34:53] Well and betty is going to want to find out about your family history because she might be marrying into spending a lot of decades with and breeding with and having kids with so to speak, your mom and genetically you're so she's gonna write she's gonna have a whole bunch of questions right i mean she should right yeah she should okay so betty has a whole bunch of questions for your mom that i based on your history your mom doesn't want to answer right yeah, so what does your mom do in that situation.
[35:29] Probably the same thing as me just deflect change try to change the topic.
[35:32] Yeah but if betty won't stand for that right i mean betty's not raised by your mom wasn't ever hit by your Your mom wasn't ever disciplined by your mom, wasn't ever dependent on your mom. So Betty can just keep asking, right?
[35:47] She's just probably going to get pissed off and be like, I dropped the questioning. You're not my teacher or something. You're not an authority figure. I don't have to answer your questions.
[35:59] Okay, and let's play that out. So then Betty would say, but, you know, I like your son a lot, and I'm family-oriented, so I would like to, I mean, you wouldn't buy a house without having it inspected. You wouldn't, like, you need to know things, right? You wouldn't buy a used computer without starting it up and make sure it worked. So, I mean, if I like your son and I, you know, maybe at some point, I don't know when exactly, but at some point, if I end up joining the family, you can understand that I'd like to know more about the family that I might be joining. Does that make sense?
[36:36] Yeah.
[36:38] Okay. So if you could answer these questions, like I would really, I would really appreciate it. I mean, it's a sign of caring for your son, right? And you would do the same thing. Like, you wouldn't get a job and never ask what the expectations or salary were, right? You'd have a lot of questions before you took a job. I mean, you're very successful in your field, Mrs. X, and you didn't get successful by not finding out details and important things, right?
[37:09] Yeah. Jesus Christ, it's hard.
[37:12] Hard so let's let's return to you know what happened with i mean this is this is the man i really care about i mean i may fall in love with him i mean who knows right but i really care about him which means i care about what happened to him when he was younger.
[37:29] Right because not only might i marry into this family but i'm going to raise kids, in this family right i mean hopefully as a grandmother you I'm sure you would want to spend some time with your kids so you know we're going to spend a lot of time together, so I need to know how you think what your values are you understand that this is not this is actually a sign of respect right if I didn't care about your son, I wouldn't be asking any of these questions right but I do care about your son and I know your son quite well, but I don't know you and of course you had a very unusual your son had a very unusual family structure right Single son of a single mother, that's a bit of a red flag statistically.
[38:12] And also he was moved from one country, culture, and language to quite a different country, culture, and language. And he also is unusually, and I think this is to his credit, right? He's a virgin, no dating experience, and so on. So it's very unusual. I'm sure some of that's positive, some of that may be negative, I don't know. But you can understand that he doesn't have a lot of answers as to how he came to be and what happened with his parents.
[38:42] I guess he can live without those answers or he's learned to live without those answers. I can't, obviously, because I have to, you know, like you see these birds with the nesting, right? If I'm looking at joining this family and having kids in this environment, I mean, you do understand that I need to know the facts, right?
[39:01] Yeah.
[39:03] So, yeah, if you could just tell me more. So then she would, would that diffuse your mom? Sorry to jump out of the roleplay, but I know you can't roleplay any answers because you don't have them, right?
[39:14] Yeah, like, I'm just assuming she'll bring up nonsense, deflect.
[39:19] Oh, okay, well, let's do that. Okay, so let's do that. I want to see what that's like. Okay, so, yeah, if you could tell me more about what happened with, I guess, well, the guy who would have been my father-in-law if you hadn't separated.
[39:34] Well like and she'll she'll say i met him in high school i fell in love with him um i i asked this multiple times she never said why she went for him but it's probably look but like i want to say he's that good looking.
[39:52] But so that's all she'd say is i met him in high school.
[39:57] Yeah, it's a guy I met in high school. I thought he was a good guy. And then in the end, he ended up betraying me.
[40:06] Because he had an affair. Was it three months pregnant or three months after the birth of your son?
[40:17] Three months uh birth.
[40:20] After birth right okay yeah and were there any red like you've obviously had a lot of time to think about this were there any red flags looking back where you'd say, yeah he was a bit of a player or you know you were with him for years right and you chose to have a child with him were there any red flags at all obviously like this perfect guy who just just started doing a terrible thing, which is sleeping around on his new mother, the mother of, the new mother of his child.
[40:53] My mother was there. She never saw any red flags.
[40:57] So are you saying that there's a personality that can impregnate a woman and then cheat Cheat on her three months after she gives birth, but there's no sign of that anywhere in the personality. Because, I mean, that's really cold and mean and terrible and horrible. And as you, I think, as your son has said, he had a child with this woman as well. So he's really kind of a spray and pray seed guy. guy so are you saying that this horrible amount of dysfunction in a person where he's cheating and creating second families while his wife is nursing their newborn that there's no sign of that anywhere in the personality no but that's not true like i can understand why you'd want to think that was true because you wouldn't want to sit there and say gee he showed signs a dysfunction and I made a mistake, right? And I'm not calling your son a mistake. I'm just saying that he was not the ideal father for your children, but I'm no psychologist, but I do understand that that kind of callous, selfish, cold-hearted personality structure, doesn't just appear out of nowhere.
[42:17] Right. I mean, they had to. I mean, they had to. Something in his family, something in how he treated you, something in how he treated others. A person can't just hide being completely selfish, cold, cruel and callous for years and then only manifest it suddenly out of nowhere. Especially when he's young. Right. I mean, maybe some con men get better as they get older, but they're not that great when they're 16. Right. yeah let me you know when you think back on it i mean was his family good uh was was there any dysfunctional problems in him that you noticed because it's not the case that, people can just turn and and their personality completely reverses.
[43:02] For for what i can think of his family had like slightly better status than mine, slightly and also my mother had a bad relationship with her father who was very abusive he would drink a lot he was an alcoholic at some points in his life and she really hated him so maybe my dad was like a way to leave that behind that household behind.
[43:30] Right so and i you know i would say to your mom as betty i really sympathize with that i mean that's that's a horribly tough, situation to have an alcoholic father who I assume is also dangerous and unstable and and all of that maybe he drink drinks and drives or whatever with you in the car perhaps and so it's like a death threat every time you're on four wheels and so you're desperate to get out this guy comes along offers you a place to go and I can understand that behavior I really can and and I can hugely sympathize with it as well Well, but that doesn't mean that your son's father showed no signs of dysfunction. He showed less signs of dysfunction than your father. He was a safer place to land, but that's not the same as saying he showed no signs of dysfunction, if that makes any sense.
[44:24] Stefan, step out of the role play for a minute.
[44:26] Yeah, yeah.
[44:27] If I bring in my mother right now to talk with you, are you okay with that?
[44:32] I'd rather talk with you a little bit first.
[44:36] Okay.
[44:37] Yeah.
[44:37] I mean, she, she's visiting me. So she's right here.
[44:40] No, I mean, does she know anything about what I do? Does she like, is she at all prepared for this conversation? Does she, does she listen to call in shows before? Does she know she's being recorded? Does she know it will be published? Like that's a whole other thing. So I will, I would be happy to talk with her, but, um, you know, I need to, she, she'd need to understand what she was getting into first.
[45:00] Okay.
[45:01] As opposed to talk to this guy, the internet, uh, about the most personal secrets of your life with no context, that's probably not going to go super well.
[45:09] Oh, I'm desperate.
[45:10] Well, you don't have to be. You don't have to be.
[45:14] Yeah, a lot of these questions, like, I can't even get answers to.
[45:19] No, no, I get that. So she would just evade Betty, right? Or she wouldn't answer, right?
[45:24] Yeah, she'd just give you a generic, like, NPC responses.
[45:28] Right. Okay, okay. Okay. So, Betty would say to you afterwards, like, the woman's a brick wall.
[45:37] Yep.
[45:38] Right? Now, either she, I mean, she obviously, obviously, your mother is very intelligent, right? I mean, because she's done very well in her career in a complicated field with life and death decisions. She's done very well. She manages people. She's, you know, clawed her way up in a different country to the top of her profession. So, So obviously, a highly intelligent woman. Is that fair to say?
[46:00] Yeah, very intelligent.
[46:02] Okay. And obviously, to be a nurse, she has to have a fantastic memory.
[46:07] Yes.
[46:08] Right? I mean, a lot of medicine. A friend of mine is going through his meds. Sorry, I shouldn't say his meds. He's going through his licensure, and the amount of stuff you have to memorize is staggering, right? So she has a fantastic memory. Otherwise, she couldn't be a nurse, let alone be at the very top of the nursing profession, which is even more of a memory situation. So your mother has a fantastic memory, so she does remember these things. But she doesn't want to share them, right? Even though she knows it's kind of agonizing for you that you don't know what happened, right?
[46:51] Yeah, but it's probably agonizing for her, too.
[46:55] What?
[46:56] It's probably agonizing for her, too. She has to relive those memories or admit fault in them.
[47:06] Oh, boy. Isn't that interesting? When I talk about what's important to you, you immediately jump to the defense of your mother.
[47:16] Yeah, I'm my mama's boy.
[47:17] Did you just notice that?
[47:21] Yeah, in the back of my head, I'm like, oh, but there are some redeeming qualities. Like, she's not doom and gloom.
[47:28] Hang on, hang on. Your mother has a child with a guy who's terrible. I mean, he's terrible, right? I mean, you almost can't do worse, right? And then she hides that from you for close on a quarter century. These were her choices, not yours. She was an adult. You were a baby. You've needed this information for a long time. Your mother has not provided it for you. This information would help you date. Because if she can say, here are the red flags, here's what to look for, here's what I overlooked, won't that help you date?
[48:16] Of course it will.
[48:17] So she's withholding from you information that's essential for you to have, for your peace of mind, for your identity, for your dating safety and security, right?
[48:26] Yeah.
[48:27] And you're like, but it might be upsetting to her. So in a conflict between what you legitimately need and which would be, helpful and perhaps even life-saving for your mother to provide. She doesn't provide it. And you jump to her defense. So you have a conflict between your needs and your mother's needs. Your needs are legitimate. Your mother's needs are bad. Your needs are good. Your mother's needs are bad. And you say, but her feelings are what's important.
[49:04] Yeah, I see that.
[49:06] So this is why you're not dating. it always sounds like I'm wandering around nowhere, you know, when I'm not, I'm not wondering, it's like, oh, why do we just want to date? What are we talking about my origin story for, right? But this is why you can't date, because in any conflict between you and a woman's feelings, what happens?
[49:26] I lose.
[49:27] Yeah, you defer to her, you've got to think about her, you've got to manage her, and your feelings have to be abandoned. A woman's illegitimate preferences, A woman's defensiveness is more important than your legitimate needs. A woman's discomfort at her own bad decisions is infinitely more important than your need for knowledge, safety, identity, security, and protection. so it's a contradiction you can't be in a relationship with a woman and i know this this may be too far so you know maybe we're on shaky ground here and i'm happy to withdraw if we've gone too far if i've gone too far how can you be in a relationship with a woman, if you have to self-erase in any conflict or contradiction between your preferences, you just have to defer to her you have to self-erase you have to get rid of your own needs, you have to join her in shallow, booger-headed, nothing NPC land. You've had a need for more real conversations with your mother for at least a decade, right?
[50:38] Yeah.
[50:40] And you've not been able to get those needs satisfied at all. Is that fair to say?
[50:50] Yeah, so should I push more with it? Try to get a resolution?
[50:55] Now we're jumping straight to solutions. I'm sorry. Everyone's so predictable.
[50:59] So we're trying to get to an insight here, right? To a connection. And you're trying to jump over the connection into action, which everybody does.
[51:09] Damien, I watched your shows for so many years, it's like, oh, I always want to put myself there.
[51:15] I'll never do that.
[51:16] Yeah, how can he not see that? But it's like, goddammit, I fell for it.
[51:22] No, but you've got to, so the reason you're trying to avoid the connection by jumping into action, right? And listen, as man-to-man, we're action-oriented. I get all of that. But we're right down at the center of, why you're not dating. I'll lay it out a little more, okay? If that's all right. Okay. All right. A quality woman will evaluate you very quickly. Women are designed to evaluate men, right? We could not have evolved if women could not evaluate men. This is why women who say, I had no idea, I just, come on, come on. I mean, to me, a woman saying, I had no idea about the quality of the man I raw-dogged it with is the equivalent of some teenage boy saying, no, I never think about sex. like come on i mean like don't even it's.
[52:25] A joke yeah.
[52:26] Yeah i mean this is that's that's that's so pretentious and so false and and if it were true if you've got some some boy of 18 who's who says oh no i never think about sex you take him to the doctor right definitely like that's something something wrong here yeah something something's wrong so that would be a marker of like a significant i don't know whatever hormonal issue or whatever it might be i'm no doctor right but but you would a young man with no sex drive that would be i think an indication that there was a significant medical issue i think definitely but you wouldn't say yeah no i get that that makes So a woman who says, I had no way of evaluating the man who impregnated me, I don't, I mean, it's absolutely false. Unless she has some significant cognitive deficiency, which based upon your mother's success, she doesn't, right?
[53:28] I forgot what the name of the principle is, but it's like the most simplest solution is usually the truest. Do you know what it's all about?
[53:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do not multiply answers unnecessarily, right?
[53:39] So it's like, it's probably, I'll just say lust.
[53:42] As to why she did what she did?
[53:45] Yeah, but like...
[53:46] But lust generally doesn't last for three years.
[53:51] I mean, he was her first, so maybe that's my last guess.
[53:56] Well, no, but if he was her first, then he would also have a pair bond unless he was, I mean, really detached emotionally. So my guess would be that he was somewhat like her father, because she's not processed her inner life, it sounds like. So your father was somewhat like her father, but she got to get out of the house. Because she had three years of evaluating the guy. This wasn't a one-night stand or anything. She had three years to evaluate the guy, or I don't know, two years and change, before she got pregnant, right?
[54:40] Yeah.
[54:41] So maybe there was lust. but i assume that i mean lust is a factor that evolution has figured into, so of course women have lust and that's why their judgment is so acute because their the lust draws them to the man but their judgment is like because you understand like if our ancestors had done what your mother did we wouldn't be here because there's no way that like i don't know like Like primitive society, like way back, like 10,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, if women chose men who didn't pay a bond and provide for their children, those women and certainly the children would probably die, and the woman probably wouldn't reproduce because she'd be ostracized because she would have wasted the tribe's resources.
[55:32] This idea that we're, what's the name for one man, one woman, couple?
[55:41] Monogamy.
[55:42] Yeah, I don't know if I fully believe that, that we're monogamous by nature. Like, evidence suggests that we're polygamous, because I don't have the studies on hand.
[55:56] No, no, listen, listen. So I'm no expert in this, but I can pretty much tell you the way it goes. And maybe I'm wrong, I mean, maybe people, but the harsher the climate, the more monogamous the family structure, of course, right? So, yeah, you can be polygamous in a place where you could just reach into the ocean and get some fish, and there's like fruit and coconuts falling from the trees, and yeah, you can be polygamous because it's not hard to provide. But where you've got winter, and you need farming, and there's long-distance hunting, and there's all these kinds of challenges... then you need monogamy.
[56:35] The one thing monogamy provides is stability to society, because if you have a bunch of single old men with nothing to lose, they're going to start causing trouble. So maybe that's why society...
[56:46] No, no, no, because polygamy in a lot of primitive societies is kind of everybody sleeps with everybody. So the young men aren't excluded and frustrated?
[56:55] No.
[56:55] Sorry, go ahead.
[56:57] From the research I gathered, it's the top... it's like apes, essentially. The top men sleep with everybody, the bottom men get dominated by the alpha male, and then there's like a cycle of violence to overthrow the guy at the top, so you can become him.
[57:11] Okay, got it. Listen, I'm happy to be schooled. As I said, I'm far from an expert. But I do know that in a society where, this is the R versus K stuff, right? So in a society where a lot of skills need to be transferred from the father to the son, you need monogamy. By skills?
[57:32] What do you mean by skills? Like technical skills? Like how to hunt? How to...
[57:37] Well, in particular, farming is a big deal for this, right? Because farming can be super complicated. And farming is really, really challenging. I don't know if you've ever worked on a farm, but it's pretty brutal, right? It's a lot of manual labor, a lot of risks.
[57:51] Yeah, you're in the sun.
[57:52] Yeah, you're in the sun. There's a lot of risks. There's a lot of predation. There's the birds, the parasites that you've got to store the grain. You've got to survive the winter. You've got to have enough food for the winter. So there's a lot of skill transfer. It's not that complicated to climb a palm tree and get a coconut or whatever, right? Right. So this is the case also with fishing in cold or challenging waters or fishing in areas where the waters are frozen over. You just you need a lot of skill and you need a lot of knowledge transfer and knowledge transfer generally occurs much more in a monogamous society because they're your kids, they're your sons. And so you're going to invest in them. Sorry, go ahead.
[58:35] Well, the way a woman generally would circumvent this issue of passing down the skill is on the black bill we call beta bucks. So you would cheat on the guy, cheat with the good-looking tall guy, and then the beta bucks is going to provide for that child. And he'll transfer the skills and knowledge to the giga-child kid.
[58:56] Well, but the problem with that, of course, is that you go from a society where competence increases to a society where competence decreases. And then you get taken over by another society where the competence has increased.
[59:08] Isn't that what's happening now?
[59:10] Well, I know, but I'm talking about our evolution, not now. Now we're in this completely artificial state of debt and welfare state and palimony, alimony, and all of that. So I'm not talking about now, but of course, if you say, well, the more successful male I will mate with, but then the knowledge transfer will occur from the less successful male, the knowledge transfer is going to decay. and then you'll end up being taken over by a place where there's pair bonding and the knowledge transfer doesn't decay it's.
[59:40] Plausible it's plausible just the genetic research shows that we have a lot more female uh ancestors than male so a lot.
[59:47] Less of our.
[59:48] Male ancestors reproduce.
[59:49] But that also depends where you're looking i'm pretty sure that uh you know a chinese peasant village from 2000 BC was probably pretty monogamous. The same thing with Japan because, you know, the knowledge transfer to farm rice is huge, right?
[1:00:09] I'll try to find you the studies I was looking at and I'll send them to you later after the show if I could find them. That'd be okay.
[1:00:17] Well, and listen, that's totally fine. And again, I'm no expert on this, so I'm happy to be schooled and to learn more about it.
[1:00:29] Even historically speaking, genetics matter more to a woman than skill, because genetics are guaranteed to be passed on. Skill, there's a lot of luck involved there.
[1:00:40] No, no, but genetics show up in the facial structures which people consider attractive, right?
[1:00:50] But it's not just facial, though.
[1:00:52] No, sorry, I know that. So height is an indication, of course, of good hunting and good decision-making. For a woman, slenderness in a situation of excess is a sign of self-discipline and therefore IQ, right? So a good hip-to-waist ratio shows fertility. so in terms of quality i mean the reason why beauty is beauty is because it generally indicates symmetry which indicates good genes yeah correct so they are choosing so you're saying that they choose on lust which indicates good genes but they don't but then they get the beta provide the beta provider who may even if the woman's past fertility age in in order to get access to sex he will pass uh resources to the woman's child is that right yes right right well i certainly know that uh it's my understanding is in the jewish community uh polygamy was not huge and certainly the christian community it is uh pretty much frowned upon right yes.
[1:02:02] Less so now but we know without already.
[1:02:04] Oh yeah yeah sure it's like it's like.
[1:02:07] Upside down world though.
[1:02:08] So betty, in evaluating your mother and because betty cares about you betty in evaluating your mother, will say this is a woman who really doesn't care that much for her son because if she did she'd do what was uncomfortable for her son's benefit right yes you know if there was some new mom and she was like oh you know my kid keeps wanting food at night but i want to sleep in so i'm just going to put him in a soundproof room and i'm gonna you know because my comfort is more important than my son's comfort i mean that would be kind of murderous right yeah kid might not make it till morning, right?
[1:02:53] Correct.
[1:02:55] So we understand that parenting involves doing things that are best for your kids and, Despite your own discomfort, right?
[1:03:07] Yeah, well, she would say that, oh, I did best what I could do in my situation.
[1:03:14] Right. And that would be... Like, this was the best option. No, but that would be now, you're just talking about yourself again, right? How about you do what your kid needs, rather than what feels comfortable for you in the moment? Of course, as a nurse, she doesn't sit there and say, well, you know, if you don't like needles, I won't take your blood. right yeah i mean as a nurse she knows that discomfort is essential in health care right oh i do that spinal tap because it's really uncomfortable.
[1:03:50] So she knows that discomfort is important is essential, so you know and saying she did the best she could with the whatever the circumstances it's like Like, well... You can't give yourself excuses when you aggressively punished your child, right? You can't say that as an adult, when you chose exactly the wrong man to be the father of your child, you can't say, well, I should be totally excused for that, but then you punish your son. That's why I was asking about the punishment scenario, right? Because why didn't you say, well, whatever my son has done that's, quote, wrong, he's He's doing the best he can with the knowledge he had, right? He's doing the best he can under the circumstances, right? So you're saying you should not be held accountable for the most important decision you made as an adult, but your son should be punished for bad things he did when he was 5 or 10 or 12 or whatever, right? Like, that doesn't make any sense, right?
[1:04:53] No.
[1:04:55] I mean, you held an 8-year-old responsible. You can't not hold a 20-year-old responsible. I mean, come on, right? if the 20 year old is not responsible for sure the eight year old is not responsible, so a quality woman's sorry go ahead can.
[1:05:14] I say like the instead of like physical punishment it'll be like more mental punishment like she will just flip out and be like oh leave me alone get away from me that type of stuff.
[1:05:22] Uh you didn't say that earlier that i could recall you did talk about being forced to stand with your face in the corner of a wall for an hour yeah that was having your PSP taken away and things like that. But I don't remember your mom flipping out and demanding that you leave her alone.
[1:05:39] Yeah. That, that, that came later more like a teenager.
[1:05:42] Oh, when she couldn't do the physical stuff, she did the mental stuff. Oh yeah. That's, that's a standard, that's a standard flip for women and men too, I suppose. So, okay. So a quality woman is going to want to date you and she is not going to want you to vanish when there's conflict and just appease her, right? Do you know why?
[1:06:10] Because if she could do that to me, that means my mother can do it to me as well.
[1:06:15] Yeah, it means you can't be loyal to her because that comes from your mother. Right? And so your loyalty is going to remain to your mother and you won't be able to pair bond with her. That's number one. Number two, she knows that there's going to be conflict with you as a father and your children. And if you fade out, then you won't be available as any kind of authority figure for the children. The children won't respect you and therefore they'll be pretty wild, right? And difficult.
[1:06:43] And the third thing, of course, is that the reason why she fundamentally won't want you to fade out when there's conflict is because you're then treating her like mommy. And quality people hate, hate, hate being put into the role of a prior abuser.
[1:07:06] Yeah nobody wants to micromanage anyone else.
[1:07:09] No it's not that it's deeper than that a woman who's sleeping with you never wants to be put into the mommy role, that's weird no it is it but it's really really important so if your mom If your mom doesn't negotiate with you and you have to defer to your mom, then if you defer to your wife, then you're putting your wife in the role of mommy. And a quality woman will be revolted by that, repelled by that. Do you see why, right? Because if every conflict with your mom means you have to self-erase and surrender, and then you have a conflict with your girlfriend or wife, and you do the same thing, you're saying, oh, you're my mom. I have to treat you like you're my mom. I'm treating you like you are my mom. You are my mom. How much Does a quality woman like Being mom In the relationship Your.
[1:08:22] Mom My biggest fear In that situation I don't have that much leverage It's not like, If I stand my ground She could leave And I'm fucked And.
[1:08:37] Do you know where that comes from?
[1:08:42] Well, my mother, of course, but, like...
[1:08:44] Your mom, when you had a conflict with her, she'd say, get lost, leave me alone, right?
[1:08:48] Yeah, but, like, what I'm saying, like, I don't have leverage. It's like, I'm not going to say, okay, mom, I'll go get another mom, or something like that, right?
[1:08:54] No, as a kid, I get that, but you're not a kid, right? So, as a kid, you didn't have leverage. As an adult, you do.
[1:09:02] I don't think I do. That's the problem.
[1:09:04] No, you absolutely do. Like, I don't have an option. I'm sorry you haven't had a man in your life to tell you this, but you absolutely do. I mean, you have less leverage if you keep taking mommy's money but you absolutely have leverage as an adult. Tell me why you think you don't. Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I'm happy to hear maybe you need a kidney from her. I don't know. But why don't you have leverage as an adult?
[1:09:36] Well, if I'm struggling to get a relationship right now and like yeah i'll find one woman right it's like i don't want to go through that slog of trying to find somebody else.
[1:09:46] Sorry do you mean i thought you meant you didn't have any leverage with your mother i.
[1:09:51] Mean both with my mother and like the future wife or.
[1:09:54] Okay can we please not put them in the same category when i just told you how revolting it is for a woman to be put in the same category as your mom okay okay let's talk about your mom right because you were saying i didn't have leverage when i couldn't get a new mom right and now suddenly you're blending in your girlfriend like that don't do that I.
[1:10:10] Mean the same principle applies to.
[1:10:12] Both no no no the same principle does not apply at all no no no no come on because then you're saying my girlfriend is my mommy, yeah the same dynamics are at work I'm helpless with both of them I have no leverage with either of them mommy and girlfriend are the same Dime.
[1:10:37] It sounds ridiculous when you put it.
[1:10:39] Well okay so listen as a kid yeah you had no leverage of course no kids do right as you say you can't go get a new mom right and yeah right she can just choose to freeze you out which is terrifying for children she can choose to neglect you or abandon you so yeah as a as a kid you had no leverage with your mother but why would you you think that's true as an adult well.
[1:11:03] From my history my dating history they're like they're of it's like if i get lucky enough right to get a woman.
[1:11:10] I'm talking about your mom why are you bringing girlfriends back in we just talked about this i'm talking about why don't you like why do you think you don't have leverage with your mom and then you're like well been in my dating life and i'm like stop that i'm talking about your mom we're not redirecting to your girlfriends friends okay.
[1:11:31] With my mom it's.
[1:11:32] Okay thank you stay with the mom yeah lending them up now right she.
[1:11:35] Like she's the only family person i have here it's just if i cut her out it's gonna be just me myself and i that seems kind of terrifying, okay.
[1:11:48] So you have no leverage because if you have needs your mother will if you if you assert your your needs, legitimate needs, like tell me how I came to be, tell me about dad. These are absolutely legitimate needs, which should be honored, right? Now, if you have legitimate needs with your mother and you pursue those needs, your mother will cut you off? I just want to understand your thinking about this. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm sure you're right. It's your life, right? Right. But I just want to understand your thinking. So if you say, no, mom, I absolutely need to like we take this. I mean, she's over right now. Right. So you can say, listen, we got to talk about dad. Like, no, ifs, ands or buts. I just I need to grill you for like three days straight about dad. What's she going to do? And if she tries to gaslight or I don't remember, it's like, no, come on, mom, you have a great memory. Stop lying. Of course you remember.
[1:12:51] The relationship would get worse then.
[1:12:54] Okay, so what happens if you continue to assert your legitimate needs with your mother?
[1:13:03] She would just shut down.
[1:13:04] Okay, what happens if you continue to assert and say, no, no, come on. Mom, I'm right here. Snap back. Snap back. I need to know these things. Right? You owe me this information, right? You chose my father. he's gone i i need to know what happened, you were unable to secure to me a quality stepfather is that right did your mom date during your childhood she did right yeah and what was your relationship like with the various men that came through your place i.
[1:13:39] Just saw them once or twice and then just the common sense pleasantries like hello how you doing how's your day blah blah blah but nothing much.
[1:13:50] Okay, so she did not work to secure for you a good stepfather.
[1:13:57] Nope.
[1:13:58] Okay, so your needs weren't being met again. Because, you know, one thing that single moms need to do, if they want to be good moms, is secure a good stepfather for their kids. Also giving you some siblings. Or half-siblings might not have been the end of the world, because I'm sure there was a lot of solitude growing up. So she was pursuing her needs for whatever she was attracted to, or money that she could get, or whatever, right? She was pursuing her needs rather than what was good for you.
[1:14:28] Yeah.
[1:14:29] Okay. So if you continue to pursue the information you need from your mother, what happens? You say, oh, well, she has all these defenses, right? Okay, well, what happens if you don't accept these defenses? And if you say, Mom, it's tearing me apart that I don't know where I came from. It's tearing me apart that I don't know what happened with you and Dad. This is really painful for me. Because, you know, she's all about alleviating pain. As a nurse, I'm sure she's like, oh, it'll just be a little prick or, oh, I'm going to hear, here's your morphine button or whatever, right? So, her whole job is to some degree alleviating pain, right? So, she knows all about that. She's got a great memory. And you're saying, it's really painful that I don't know these things, Mom. I really need you to talk about them, then what? Will she talk? Will she do what you need? Will she do the right thing?
[1:15:37] Probably.
[1:15:40] What do you think? What's your estimate?
[1:15:45] Yeah, I hope she cracks, basically. I hope she cracks. But if she doesn't, it's going to be like a betrayal. Then it's like, what do I do from there?
[1:15:55] Well then see you learn more about your father no matter what happens right, do you know what do you.
[1:16:04] Mean by that.
[1:16:04] Well okay so let's say she as you say cracks and she tells you all about your father then you learn a lot about your father right yep yep if she doesn't crack if she's still incredibly selfish and won't provide the man in her life with his legitimate legitimate needs, Matt, then you know why your father left.
[1:16:26] Ah, I see.
[1:16:28] This is why it's important to do, in my view, because you get all the facts, right? If she's completely selfish and won't give you what you desperately need and is willing to sacrifice your legitimate needs on the altar of her own vanity and self-protection, that's why your dad left.
[1:16:48] I see.
[1:16:50] So you understand him either way?
[1:16:54] You have a point.
[1:16:58] So if you're in a relationship, so tell me the last time with your mother that you had a need that conflicted with her where she sacrificed her own preferences to meet your need.
[1:17:14] Yeah, I'm not sure this will count, but like last week I commented, like I opened up like I'm struggling with dating with her and then she's like oh go get a sex doll with that cow.
[1:17:26] Your mother's advice, for you being short of a girlfriend was to buy a plastic woman and have sex with her.
[1:17:38] Yeah I was I'm like I tell my mom that's like offensive that's disgusting like what kind of advice is this just terrible advice and then and then she went she told her boyfriend to call me to have like a man talk with me about it and then he's like oh go on tinder bro and i'm like jesus christ so your.
[1:18:01] Mother your mother's advice for your loneliness is to mate with rubber or i don't know silicon or whatever they're making and these creepy things to.
[1:18:10] Get a text doll. Yep. Okay.
[1:18:15] So let's say you're dating a quality woman and she finds this out.
[1:18:20] Terrible. That's... How could she say that?
[1:18:23] Like, what would she... What would she do?
[1:18:30] You can't fix her but like you gotta like separate from her right.
[1:18:37] Would you would a quality woman who's dating you want to get involved in this horror show.
[1:18:44] Of course not.
[1:18:47] So you say well if I don't have a relationship with my mother I'm alone right, yep Well, you don't have a relationship if you can't express your legitimate needs and have the person work to meet them.
[1:19:06] So we just have this fake relationship right now?
[1:19:11] Well, no, it's creepy. Honestly, this is straight up creepy. Get a sex doll to your son who's having dating problems? I can't even tell you how. I'd work very hard to denormalize the living crap out of this in your brain that's freaky and creepy and bizarre beyond.
[1:19:31] Words it was I was offended what the hell are you talking about right but it's like back in my mind she just doesn't understand the dating market from a male's perspective.
[1:19:44] Oh come on man.
[1:19:46] There's no excuse for this yeah even if it's true she has no care into she doesn't care about it period.
[1:19:54] And her boyfriend is like go on tinder.
[1:19:57] Yeah which.
[1:19:59] Tells you everything about their relationship.
[1:20:02] Oh it's uh he's he's not with her right now and when she would go out with like a male friend and she needs his permission to like go there without me, she's not with.
[1:20:19] Him but she needs his permission to see a male friend.
[1:20:23] Yeah because you may be compressing.
[1:20:25] This story a little bit so.
[1:20:27] The her boyfriend is worried she i'm not i don't know like she might cheat or something so she needs she she would tell him like be open i'm gonna go out with a male friend and he was like oh bring your son with you and i would be like i don't want to go there and then she'll need oh sorry i thought.
[1:20:47] You meant she's not with him like they broke up you mean when she's not with him and when she's with a male friend he wants you along as a chaperone right.
[1:20:56] Pretty much like make sure nothing happens okay.
[1:20:59] Got it got it sorry i didn't didn't quite fall.
[1:21:01] And i'm and i'm like yeah this is this relationship like i asked her it's like aren't you like adults like how can you not how do you need like a babysitter with you okay so it's like it's not it's it's a disastrous relationship too like he's he's this this guy's been in my life for three years it's like we don't know anything about each other like i don't even like i don't care about him he doesn't care about me like whatever, Like, I'm kind of so old, so call anyone a stepdad anyway.
[1:21:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, maybe if he was really, really helpful, he could earn a role over time, but he's not that, right?
[1:21:41] Nah.
[1:21:41] So your mother has bad judgment of men, right?
[1:21:47] Yeah, that's definitely where the evidence was leading to.
[1:21:50] I mean, as a pretty woman, certainly when she was younger, she could have gotten just about any man, right?
[1:22:00] Yeah.
[1:22:00] And this is the man she chose.
[1:22:06] Terrible choices.
[1:22:07] Right. Right.
[1:22:13] And it's like, is it all because of her past relationship with her father? It's like, does she not do any self? examination of it.
[1:22:23] Are you asking me why is your mom the way she is?
[1:22:29] Yeah, it's like, there was no Stefan Molyneux back then, like there is now.
[1:22:34] What are you saying? Are you saying that there's no knowledge that self-honesty and curiosity is important? I mean, Socrates 2,500 years ago said the unexamined life is not worth living. Now, I have issues with the statement, but... The idea that you should try and figure out why you do what you do. I mean, I didn't invent that.
[1:22:58] My question is, why wouldn't she not do that? Why would she choose ignorance over knowing the truth?
[1:23:06] The whole point of free will is it's not causal. So you're asking, why did she choose? But the whole point of a choice is it's not causal. Because if it's causal, it's not a choice. Like if someone pushes you off a cliff and I say, well, why did you fall? You say, well, it's gravity, man. It wasn't a choice. So why did your mother do what she did? She chose to. Because there's no causality. The moment you can find an exception, there's no causality, right? I mean, I had a bad enough childhood that I could have been a pretty terrible person. and that I could have said, well, yes, but, you know, single mother and violence and mental illness and institutionalization and being alone and, right? I could say all of these things, right? But I'm a good person and I'm a good father. So history is not causal. And your mother's certainly intelligent enough to be able to read books and figure out what's going on in her life. She could have gone to therapy. And she could have said, gee, you know, I'm a single mom. I'm going to read up on the risks and dangers of being a single mom so that I can be a better mother to my son, right?
[1:24:28] I mean, the ego got in the way.
[1:24:31] Well, that's another way of saying that it's causal. now the ego has eclipsed her like this the moon eclipses the sun right yeah.
[1:24:39] Because i'm black like everything to me is like an equation like what willed what into existence and i know that's a problem.
[1:24:47] Well okay so so so yeah the the black pill and it's funny because dominoes are black as well right so the black pill is the domino theory the domino theory of course is that events are are determined to the origin of the universe has started the dominoes in motion that had your mom do what she did. Right.
[1:25:07] Yeah.
[1:25:09] And do you believe that that's true for men as well as women? Or do men have free will and women are causal? Cause that's certainly some elements of the, the manosphere that have that perspective.
[1:25:25] It's either for both or neither.
[1:25:26] But it's no, no for you. I'm not saying logically or philosophically, I'm just saying for you, right? Do you believe that you are causal in the way that you ascribe things to your mother?
[1:25:40] Yeah, I'm basically, you would say I'm making up excuses for her?
[1:25:43] No, no, hang on. Are you causal? Do you have choice in your life? Or is your life going to be dictated by what happened in the past?
[1:25:56] I have choice in what happens in my life.
[1:26:01] Yeah, I mean, listen, were you at all ambivalent, or in other words, did you have both positive and negative feelings about calling me?
[1:26:09] Me only positive.
[1:26:10] Only positive all right good because a lot of people are like oh you know i i put this off for a while right i i emailed.
[1:26:19] You earlier and then i never double checked the skype if you messaged me back like i was an idiot.
[1:26:25] Oh yeah it's kind of funny for me where i say to people uh okay give me a skype id and skype allows you to schedule things so and and also skype deals with time changes like you could be in a totally opposite time zone for all i know right so it's just way more efficient so i say yeah give me a skype idea then people are like i never opened skype and it's like i what anyway i.
[1:26:47] Mean here's a here's a little legitimate criticism though it's it's so i'm not i'm not sure if it's your producer or you who checks the skype but like it took like i think three days to get for me to get a response back so i felt like i got left on read or something because i did see that you did read it you just never responded.
[1:27:03] Yeah well i mean um there's a lot of scheduling that goes on yeah i appreciate the feedback that's that's a good feedback now so you have choice right yes and does your mother have the same degree of choice Yes. Okay, then why do you keep wanting causality for your mother's behavior?
[1:27:32] It's to rationalize it, to make myself feel better about her. Which I know isn't the right thing to do. Because I'm taking away her agency.
[1:27:44] Let me ask it a different way. Who benefits from you giving your mother excuses? Right, so her. Do you benefit from giving your mother excuses?
[1:27:55] No.
[1:27:58] What does it cost you to give your mother excuses?
[1:28:04] Short-term pain, but long-term happiness. Like, it would be really painful, like, if she actually just ignores my inquiry. worry but in the long term i'll i can move on with my life from that.
[1:28:20] That's a lovely generic response more specifically what does it cost you to excuse female bad behavior what does it cost you in the short run and the long run in detail i.
[1:28:35] Mean i want to say nothing but you want more than that like i need to overcome myself in this situation right it and it's overcome my own fear of getting rejected by my mother.
[1:28:50] Boy i'm talking to mom again okay um, do you like it when people treat you like you're far younger than you actually are.
[1:29:06] It's funny. My mom does that all the time.
[1:29:08] I'm sure she does.
[1:29:09] Yeah, it fits me.
[1:29:10] Do you like it?
[1:29:12] No.
[1:29:13] I mean, it's almost like she said, you said, I'm having this huge problem, and she said, play with dolls. Talk about infantilizing, right? Okay, so you don't like it. Right. I remember when I was a kid, there's a phrase that used to just bug the crap out of me, right? I'd be upset about something, and people would say, oh, he's had a big day. He's been very stimulated, right?
[1:29:38] Yeah, that's very patronizing.
[1:29:39] It's very patronizing, and it's like there's no legitimate emotion or things like that, right? It's all just, well, you know, he's overtired. It's like, no, no, I'm upset about something, right? How about you ask me that rather than make up some physical thing, right?
[1:29:53] Yeah.
[1:29:53] And it's also insulting because they're calling me a liar. Like, if I'm upset about X, right, and then people say, when I was a kid, they say, oh, he's overtired. He's had a big day or whatever, right?
[1:30:04] They're taking away your answer.
[1:30:05] They'd say, well, I'm just making up that I'm upset about X when in fact I'm just tired, right?
[1:30:11] Yeah.
[1:30:12] Or, you know, when moms say to upset babies, oh, he's just fussy. He's just fussing. It's like, no, there could be some legitimate emotional thing that's going on for the baby or the toddler. But people make up all of this garbage all the time that completely delegitimizes the authenticity of other people's feelings.
[1:30:34] Yeah.
[1:30:37] So they'll try to make you crazy like if you talk to your mom she might say where is all this coming from this doesn't make any sense like you're crazy, out of nowhere it's like it's not out of nowhere it's out of almost a quarter century of soviet levels of silence, do we give excuses to babies and toddlers I think so Yeah.
[1:31:05] We do.
[1:31:06] I think so. I mean, if you have a, what was that famous scene from Patrick Swayze ad-libbed this in a pretty bad movie called City of God with Dom Puri, and he was changing the diaper of a baby, and the baby boy and the baby boy peed in his face, and he's like, hey, he's going to be a fireman. Good life. But we don't, you know, we don't get mad at the baby for peeing when they're changing, right?
[1:31:32] Of course not.
[1:31:33] But of course, if someone pees in you as an adult, that's pretty, pretty egregious, right? There's a kind of assault, right?
[1:31:40] That would fight.
[1:31:44] So, we give babies excuses. When we give adults excuses, we're treating them like they're babies. And if you sort of notice the defenses that your mom has, they're all about helplessness. I didn't know. It was impossible to know. I did the best I could with the knowledge I had. he just changed, I was helpless so she's playing baby, so you don't hold her accountable, she's your mother who's triggering your paternal instincts to hold babies unaccountable.
[1:32:28] I definitely get that vibe.
[1:32:30] And you can't be a father if your mother demands you treat her as your baby baby, this is Schrodinger's Feminist, right? I'm a strong, independent woman unless I make a bad decision and then I'm a helpless victim of external forces.
[1:32:54] She unironically said that once. It made me so cringe inside.
[1:32:57] She said what?
[1:32:58] She said, I'm a strong, independent woman. She said it once, but it was so cringe at the moment for me. Right.
[1:33:05] She's a strong, independent woman. Who can't answer basic questions her son needs to have about her life. Because it's too upsetting.
[1:33:15] Yeah.
[1:33:16] So she plays the baby while also demanding you treat her as an authority figure. Am I wrong?
[1:33:23] Correct.
[1:33:27] Now, if you can't... One of the ways we show significant contempt for people is to take away their agency.
[1:33:40] Can you delve deeper into that well or give me an example.
[1:33:50] Contempt might not be the right word, but I think in the circumstances with functional adults, it is. So, if somebody has a massive brain injury and they're in a semi-vegetative state, we don't consider them lazy for not working, right?
[1:34:08] Yep.
[1:34:09] So, they have suffered to the point where they're like babies, right? And so we take care of them, we tend to them, and we don't judge them for not getting anything done with their lives. So we lower our expectations massively when that person doesn't have free will or moral agency.
[1:34:35] And we do that out of love?
[1:34:37] I'm sorry?
[1:34:38] And we do that out of love and compassion?
[1:34:41] I'm not sure exactly why people would do that. attachment or obligation um it could be the history of prior love like this is a much beloved family member who you know out of respect for what they did in the past there's a well i mean it's it's a wide variety you can't you can't love the vegetative person in the vegetative state, because our love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous and the person through no fault of his or her own we assume is in a vegetative semi-vegetative state and therefore therefore can't act in a moral manner and therefore can't be loved in that way.
[1:35:17] Okay.
[1:35:17] But there may be a history of prior attachment and so on. Of course we love babies, though babies are not moral. So, I mean, we attach to them and all of that. So that's a complicated question, but for sure we massively lower our expectations, right?
[1:35:34] Yep.
[1:35:36] Now, if someone is a hyper functional adult, adult as your mother is right a very successful career woman if you if somebody's a hyper functional adult but we say they have no free will no choice no real capacity for virtue, and are helpless pawns of the distant past that's a we're saying you are unable to change change you don't have free will even though you are a highly competent person quite the opposite of being in a semi-vegetative state and so we're holding that person in contempt because we're saying i'm treating you as a toddler though you are in fact a highly intelligent adult, now we're saying you can't improve.
[1:36:35] You can't change, you can't grow, you can't listen, and that's treating someone with contempt. You're a highly functional, highly intelligent adult, but I'm not going to hold you accountable for anything because I believe that you can never, ever change for the better, that you can never, even though you have the perfect capacity to take responsibility, you never will. see if you truly love people if you truly love people you fight to remind them of their free will and responsibility all the time because that's treating them with respect, and they do the same with you, I mean the coach who says you can do better is the coach who's treating you with respect respect, the coach who says you can't improve when you can is treating you with contempt.
[1:37:42] Do you see what I mean?
[1:37:46] Yeah, he doesn't like you. He doesn't want to see you go above your station.
[1:37:51] He's sabotaging you, right? So if you can do better and your coach says, no, you've peaked, you'll never be any better than you are. Don't even try it. You're just wasting your time, right? and you could do better, he's sabotaging you, right?
[1:38:06] Yep.
[1:38:07] So, when you don't hold your mother accountable, you're sabotaging her. When you pretend that she is a middle-aged, highly competent baby, you're acting in a very destructive manner towards her. That's bad for your conscience. You know, I hold people in my life accountable for their actions. They hold me accountable for my actions. I give everyone in my life free will. They give everyone, everyone gives me free will. And of course, the purpose of parenting is to progressively remove, excuses. Right, so they have all the excuses when they're babies. By the time they're 18, they should have no excuses. you're just like layers of an onion just peeling off excuses right yeah, and your mother's made it to middle age in diapers, somehow well no that's her demand her demand if i understand this correctly and obviously you know the relationship infinitely better than i do so tell me if i'm astray if you hold me accountable there won't be a relationship.
[1:39:30] And my guess is, that's what happened to your dad. He tried to hold her accountable for something. And she just fought him tooth and nail. Now, again, if we're looking at causality, like, what could be the causality is, and this doesn't mean she has no free will, but my guess is that when she was a kid, your mom, sorry, one second, I just need to clear my throat.
[1:40:03] When your mom was a kid, her father, who was drunk and abusive, would torture her with accountability. In other words, when she wasn't responsible for things, he would hold her responsible and blame her for that. Right? So, you know, the typical example is the kid is carrying something heavy, drops it, and it smashes. it's an accident, right? Kids are learning, right? And, I mean, it happens to adults even, right? But then she would be blamed for something that was an accident. And so for her, accountability meant vicious punishment. So she avoids accountability because she was punished with false accountability as a child. Right? You made me hit you by being bad, right? When I asked about punishment, you said, well, I was a good kid. Like you were being punished for being bad. Kids aren't punished for being bad.
[1:41:11] So I would imagine that your mother was held accountable or blamed for things that weren't her fault. And so she's like, oh, so accountability is pain. Accountability is unjust punishment. And so she resists accountability because she was falsely punished for accountability when she was a kid. But the problem, of course, is that if you avoid accountability because you were punished for fake accountability as a kid, you end up doing bad things as an adult because you have all these excuses. And when you have excuses, you do bad things. And so the unjust punishment for accidental things when you were a kid becomes just criticism of yourself as an adult.
[1:42:13] Can you repeat that?
[1:42:15] So let's say that I mean I was punished for things that weren't my fault as a kid right, and so I whenever somebody would say you're responsible you're accountable that would be prior to getting hit, so accountability then gets trained to you to equal punishment and just as you avoid punishment thus do you also avoid accountability accountability so the kid who is beaten for sneaking food if the parent says did you sneak food food's missing what's he going to say nope because accountability is punishment self-ownership and responsibility is punishment does that make sense yeah.
[1:43:01] Makes sense are.
[1:43:02] You sure you sound yes because.
[1:43:04] I mean in my head it's like it's not it's not accountability it's in just accountability accountability well.
[1:43:10] I get that but the kid did steal the food he did sneak the food right, yeah so it's not fair so i can't it's not it's absolutely not fair of course it's not fair but that's why i keep saying unjust accountability right so when the parent says you're responsible, They'll punish you often, right? So if you come home with a bad grade, you'll get punished because you're responsible for the bad grade, right? So accountability is attached to children in order to punish them. Now, sometimes to praise them, you come home with a good grade, they might say good job or whatever, right? But accountability in dysfunctional households equals punishment. So kids learn to avoid accountability. accountability they make up lies they blame others they say i wasn't here i didn't do it i would never you know whatever right so they avoid accountability because accountability equals punishment in other words they're trained to avoid accountability because accountability nine times out of ten leads to abuse does this make sense yeah.
[1:44:24] Every time i would bring up like Like, oh, mom, you hit me when I was a kid. She'd be like, oh, what are you talking about? Like, you're fine. I really did it. She always, like, minimizes it.
[1:44:35] Yeah, she won't take accountability. Now, if a kid doesn't take accountability or avoids accountability because they're punished for it as a kid, then they grow up not taking accountability. And your mother won't take accountability for any deficiencies in her personal life. I'm sure she takes accountability for deficiencies in her professional life. Otherwise, she wouldn't be successful, right?
[1:45:02] Yeah.
[1:45:03] But in her personal life, she won't take any accountability. And that means she gives herself excuses. And that means she does bad things that she should be held accountable for. So, in other words, you're trained to avoid accountability as a child. And then as an adult, you avoid accountability because it's incredibly painful. But that means you give yourself excuses, which means you give yourself permission, mission, which means you do bad things you should be held accountable for. That's how the bad childhood gets you.
[1:45:33] Is that you had legitimate avoidance of accountability as a kid, because accountability meant punishment, but you carry that habit into adulthood, and you avoid accountability, you avoid feedback, you avoid responsibility, you avoid improvement. But if you avoid accountability as an adult, you can never be close to anyone. Because in every relationship, we do things that occasionally will hurt the other person, and they need to be able to tell us. If you avoid accountability, you can't be close to people because you can't ever accept responsibility for anything you've ever done with them. Other than, you know, maybe some positive characteristics, whatever, right? But you can't be close to people if you can't handle criticism. You can't be close to people Because you're always being defensive. And every time somebody has something that they don't like about what you did, you'll just brush them off. You'll just, right, this is what, when you were a kid, you would have some criticism of your mom, she'd say, get lost, go away, don't talk to me.
[1:46:47] But if you can't be self-critical, if you can't handle criticism, you can't be close to people. That's the price. I mean, I get the benefit of avoiding criticism. Yeah, you get to avoid the short-term discomfort of looking in the mirror and saying, gee, I did something not particularly nice or not particularly good or maybe even bad or whatever, right? I understand the positives for sure. But the negatives are you can't be close to people. and because you reject any feedback or criticism you continue to do bad things and the deficit accumulates and because the deficit accumulates eventually you end up with what a completely fucking shallow relationship because you can't talk about anything real you can't talk about anything deep. You can't talk about anything meaningful, because by avoiding accountability, you continue to do bad things. Those bad things accumulate to the point where you can't talk about anything deep because you're holding back this giant dam of the wrong things you've done by avoiding accountability, which was understandable as a kid, but it's toxic as an adult. And this is why you can't talk about anything meaningful with your mom. hopefully this makes some sense.
[1:48:05] It makes sense and this applies to me and my mother.
[1:48:12] All right i know you weren't listening there right because they said and this is why you can't talk about anything with your mom and then you said so this applies to me and my mom.
[1:48:20] No no i mean if it applies to my mother wouldn't that apply to me as well what.
[1:48:25] Do you mean.
[1:48:26] So she's not holding accountability and I'm also letting her do it am I giving myself the same excuse well well.
[1:48:41] You are looking for structural issues as to why you can't date.
[1:48:48] Correct.
[1:48:49] Right. So what is that other than trying to hold systems or society responsible for things that are more under your control than you believe?
[1:48:59] I mean, hear me out on this. What if it's me? I'm the issue. Where I'm not tall enough. I'm not good-looking enough, or my conversation skills may be lacking.
[1:49:17] Because now what plastic surgery did you get?
[1:49:20] Rhinoplasty.
[1:49:21] Okay. I mean, that's pretty common, right? That's not exactly plastic surgery, like a nose job. Okay. Right.
[1:49:29] Now, like many people are in relationships. Yeah, a lot of them are dysfunctional, but like I can't even get that.
[1:49:41] Right i.
[1:49:41] Can't even get a dysfunctional relationship like what the hell what's wrong with me.
[1:49:45] And everything you talk about leads away from your mother, yeah i mean maybe your nose was a little too big although i've known big nose people who get married but okay let's say maybe your nose was a little too big okay so what you're saying is I won't date a woman, sorry, the reason I'm not dating a woman is women are so shallow that it's my nose that's driving them away is that right? yeah okay, so if a woman won't date you because your nose was a little too big, and you get that woman because your nose is a little smaller, is that the kind of woman you want to get? A woman who doesn't look for your qualities of character. She doesn't look for your virtues. She doesn't look for your fitness as a husband and a father. She doesn't look for your loyalty, your integrity. She's like, oh, no, it's 4% too big. Not dating. Not dating. Is that who you want? Are you crazy? Of course not.
[1:51:01] Of course not. But like, if I'm better looking.
[1:51:04] Plus it's former false advertising because you still have the jeans for the big nose.
[1:51:08] Yeah, but it's better than nothing.
[1:51:11] Okay, better than nothing. So you're saying without the smaller nose, you're nothing?
[1:51:18] My odds of being nothing are lesser, or ending up with nothing.
[1:51:24] Okay. Do you think that one of the reasons why women aren't dating you is either because your nose was slightly too big, or because you're enmeshed in some weird mommy-girlfriend thing where you don't hold women accountable because your mom won't take any responsibility.
[1:51:42] I mean, the thing is, I talk to some girls, but it's never about family, especially that deep.
[1:51:50] Okay, give me an exchange. If you have one on your phone, even better. Don't obviously read out names, but what kind of exchanges? Do you have them with women?
[1:52:04] Oh, shit. Give me a sec.
[1:52:35] I'm not going to read out the whole thing. I'll just give you the general gist. So it's like this girl is back in the old country where I'm from. And we're just talking about like education. Her mother passed away early. We talked about that a lot. Again, she never talked about my family. Just about her studies. She's getting a driver's license. talked about some hobby stuff, she was showing me on google maps you can't see this but on a website in that country she was showing me this is the street you grew up on because I was asking for it stuff like that, how does the area look like now, nothing too deep if that's what you're looking for.
[1:53:44] Okay, what's the deepest thing you talk about?
[1:53:49] It's her mother, like, what she died from, like, how much she misses her, that type of stuff.
[1:54:00] Okay, that's responding to her. What's the deepest thing you talk about?
[1:54:05] Uh... that I feel like around my mother, like I can't be myself.
[1:54:25] Oh, so you told her that around your mother, you can't be yourself.
[1:54:29] Yeah.
[1:54:29] Okay. And how did she respond to that?
[1:54:40] She said that, she can't relate, sorry she can't relate yeah yeah I mean her mother's dead right, yeah but even before that she never it was never like that actually yeah she brought up she brought up her father and her father's he gets drunk a lot like she hates living with him oh gosh she also moved out, so we went into that, like uh and the sorry I.
[1:55:16] Assume that the conversation has not led to dating plans.
[1:55:23] If I was there it would but because I'm overseas no it didn't so.
[1:55:29] Why sorry why are you engaging with a woman you can't date.
[1:55:36] I can't.
[1:55:37] I can't get a girlfriend. I'm throwing heart, mind, body, and soul into a relationship with a woman on the other side of the world that I can't date. I want to get a job desperately. I keep applying for jobs as doctors when I'm not a doctor. I don't know what's happening.
[1:55:55] I mean, this was after I tried here and it just failed. I'm like, oh, let's see how it's going to go over there. It went way better.
[1:56:05] Look, it could, I mean, obviously, further apart romances have happened, right?
[1:56:11] Yeah.
[1:56:12] So, how long have you been chatting with this young woman?
[1:56:17] Three years.
[1:56:19] Three years?
[1:56:21] It's on and off. It's not like every day we're texting each other.
[1:56:25] Three years?
[1:56:27] Yeah.
[1:56:28] And have you made any plans to meet?
[1:56:32] She's married now. We're just friends now.
[1:56:35] Oh, God. Like, it's... Okay, so, I guess I should have been a little more fucking clear. I'm talking about text messages, not with married women on the other side of the world.
[1:56:50] No, but when we started, she wasn't married.
[1:56:53] Okay, when in the conversation did you tell her you can't be yourself around your mother?
[1:56:59] It's at the... Like, a year, one and a half.
[1:57:03] And she wasn't married then?
[1:57:05] No.
[1:57:06] Right. And she still can't relate.
[1:57:11] Yeah.
[1:57:12] Right. Which means she makes it about herself rather than you, right? Now, when you say, I can't be myself around my mother, what do you think women hear from that?
[1:57:30] Truth. Like, weak beta male?
[1:57:42] Well, mommy runs things. Mom's in charge. I have no authority. I have no reciprocity. I do what she wants. She says jump. I say how high. Mommy's in charge. I'm a mama's boy. Now, come on, man. You've been around the manosphere long enough to know. Do women of quality want to date mama's boys?
[1:58:09] Of course not.
[1:58:10] Of course not. So what you're saying to her is, I can't have any standards or values that my mother doesn't approve of in the presence of my mother. My mother's clingy, she dominates me, she dictates to me, I obey. Which means, if mommy doesn't like you, you're gone.
[1:58:41] If the bossy mom doesn't like you, the potential girlfriend, it's not going to work out because mom's going to express her disapproval and I can't be myself around my mother so I'll abandon you for the sake of mommy. I can't pair bond because my mom's a bossy whatever you want to say, right? My mom is, and I can't stand up to her. I can't be myself around her. I can't have any values that contradict with mommy. So I can't pair bond because if mommy doesn't approve of some girl I'm dating, I'm going to find some way to get out of the relationship. Could be sabotage, could be any number of things, right? Or, best case scenario, I end up in a pitched battle with this guy's mom, but she's got 23 years experience dominating him and I don't. So who's going to win?
[1:59:40] Probably her. No, Mom.
[1:59:44] Well, I mean, who's going to take that risk?
[1:59:51] Yeah, nobody.
[1:59:52] Nobody. Do you think it's really the size of your nose or the fact that you say stuff like that to women?
[2:00:01] This is the only woman I ever told this to, Stefan.
[2:00:05] You don't think women... What did we just say earlier? Women are incredibly attuned to the quality of potential partners.
[2:00:11] You say that, but then I look at reality, I'm like, no? They're sleeping around.
[2:00:18] No, they're attuned. It's just that their consequences are removed, right? I mean, human beings are attuned to plan for winter, but if you've got a zillion dollars, you don't need to, so you don't, right? Doesn't mean that we don't have those instincts. It just means that they don't play because there's an excess of resources, which is the welfare state and whatever, right? So it's like... No, no, I'm not going into social stuff. I'm not doing it. If you eliminate all this crap in your life and you still can't get a date, call me back, we'll talk about social stuff. But you're trying to take your free will and what you can actually do something about, and you're trying to put it onto these impersonal socioeconomic factors that you can't do anything about. You're trying to remove from yourself free will, and I don't dislike you. I don't have contempt for you. I'm enjoying the conversation. I respect you. So I'm not going to let you do it. Remember I said to people in my life, we don't allow causality to overcome the potential for virtue.
[2:01:16] Yeah, we're 100% responsibility.
[2:01:18] So no, I'm not going to give you it's socioeconomic when you allow your mother to dominate your view of women.
[2:01:42] So I need to...
[2:01:43] Can we do... No, no, now you're going straight into action, as people always do. Here's an insight. What do I do? Here's another insight. Okay, but what do I do? So I'm supposed to do this, do that? I don't know.
[2:01:55] It's my mathematical eight brain.
[2:01:57] No, it's no. Don't give yourself that either.
[2:02:00] God damn it. You can't have nothing.
[2:02:02] Nope, you can't have anything but free will here. Sorry, buddy. If it's any consolation, I'm the same with myself, and it's annoying to me too. So if that's any consolation...
[2:02:10] I just want to punch your wall. I know, I know.
[2:02:13] See, here's what happens. Listen, that's really important. So now you're getting some aggression because I'm taking away excuses. So you're having a masculine reaction, punch a wall, when I take away excuses. Good. We're men. We don't get excuses.
[2:02:33] Yep.
[2:02:34] And we shouldn't give ourselves excuses. I mean, you know that, right?
[2:02:41] Of course.
[2:02:42] And part of this whole black pill stuff is treating men like drunks and children and idiot women. Here's all the excuses. Oh, great. Now I get paralysis. Whereas I take away the excuses, you feel the surge of energy and aggression, right?
[2:03:01] Yeah, it's time to get mad.
[2:03:03] It's time to get mad. Your mother did you some real wrong. She chose the wrong guy for your father. She took you away from him without you wanting to. That's why I asked earlier, did you want to leave your native country? She took you to a new country, a new culture, a new language. She didn't work to help you integrate, as far as I can tell.
[2:03:32] I have not integrated at all.
[2:03:34] Okay. So she didn't give you advice. She didn't help you with the transition. So she successfully transitioned to the new culture, but it's pretty tough for a kid of eight to do that, and she didn't help you with that. She doesn't listen. She rules over and denies and gets upset and angry at your legitimate requests for essential information. She's doing you some wrong. I'm not saying she's just a terrible person, of course, but she's doing you some wrong. And you feel helpless about that.
[2:04:07] Correct.
[2:04:09] You're not. I'm not helpless. You're not helpless. Do we lower our standards? This is a foundational question of philosophy, just so you know, this is why these conversations are still so great after 17 or 18 years. It's a foundational question of philosophy. Do we lower our standards to our historical relationships, or do I raise our standards no matter what?
[2:04:35] No matter what.
[2:04:37] Do we lower our standards? And listen, most people do. If they're surrounded by crappy people, they just lower their standards.
[2:04:46] Yep.
[2:04:48] Philosophy says standards exist independent of history. Standards exist independent of family structures. Standards exist independent of the accidents of birth. I mean, if you're born a slave, you've got to lower your standards. because you're a slave and you're probably going to live and die a slave, right? The question is, do you lower your standards to accommodate your mother, or do you raise your standards and see who meets them, who rises to meet them?
[2:05:31] I've got to raise my standards.
[2:05:36] Well, you don't have to. Most people go through life collapsing their standards to accommodate the trash planet they may have been born into.
[2:05:48] Yeah, but I don't want to be just another dust of history, just letting the wind blow wherever it goes.
[2:05:54] Yeah, you want to have free will. Okay, but free will means having standards.
[2:05:58] Correct.
[2:06:00] So, if your mother was just someone you met at a dinner party, how close would you be?
[2:06:08] Distant.
[2:06:10] I mean, you might be interested a little bit in her professional life or whatever, right?
[2:06:14] Yeah, yeah. But like personally I wouldn't Pursue anything.
[2:06:19] Right So your mother This is really important man Your mother Has not earned Your love or allegiance If I understand the situation correctly.
[2:06:33] You got it.
[2:06:35] Okay So Do you love your mother? No Can you say to your mother, listen, this is really tragic. I have big problems with how I was raised. I have big problems with our current relationship. It's been haunting my brain like 10,000 ghosts that you told me to get a sex doll because I was having trouble dating. I find myself not happy when the phone rings and I see that it's you. I find myself not wanting to see you. This is really tragic. what can we do? I find myself, breaking orbit and getting further away. And I'm scared about that. It's unpleasant. But that's what's happening. And what would your mom say if you brought something up like that?
[2:07:39] I've asked her we should go get therapy because we have this very strange relationship. And she just said, oh, what are you talking about? Everything's fine.
[2:07:50] Okay, so she would then say, so this is pure selfishness, right?
[2:07:57] Yeah.
[2:07:57] I think everything's fine in the relationship. Therefore, everything is fine. But a relationship, by definition, is two people, right?
[2:08:12] Yeah.
[2:08:14] I mean, can you imagine if you get a bad meal at a restaurant, it's cold and it's the wrong order, and the manager comes over and says, how was your experience? And you say, it's terrible. And he says, no, it wasn't. And you say, no, no, it was the wrong order. My food was cold. and he said, no, it wasn't. The relationship is fine. You paid your bill, didn't you? So the relationship is fine. You didn't have a problem. There's no issue. I don't, like, no. Would that not feel like you were talking to a crazy person?
[2:08:52] Yeah.
[2:08:53] I want to make a complaint. No, you don't. There's nothing wrong. Do you understand that would be insane? Sane.
[2:09:02] Yeah, manipulative, evil.
[2:09:04] Well, it's, I mean, or even worse, just completely blankly selfish. Because the manager at the restaurant is like, you paid your bill, so I'm happy. And if I'm happy, the relationship is good. The fact that you got wrong, bad, cold food, it doesn't even register. I got paid. You paid your hundred bucks for the dinner. So the relationship is fine. there's not a problem. I don't understand why there's a problem because I got my $100. I mean, it could be even worse than malevolent. It could be like this blank, primitive NPC ignorance that there even is supposed to be somebody else in the relationship who has concerns. I want to make a complaint. No, you don't. There's no problem. I got paid. There's no problem. No, but I didn't get what I ordered. I didn't get what I wanted. No, no, no. I don't know where you're coming from. I got paid. The relationship is great. No, no, no. I didn't get the food I wanted, and it was cold, and it was bad. No, no, no. I got paid, so the relationship is great. Do you understand? That would be insane, and that restaurant would not last, right?
[2:10:24] Yeah. Totally.
[2:10:27] I'm unhappy. No, you're not. Why not? Because I'm happy. I'm happy to not talk about anything deep. Therefore, you must be happy. I'm not happy. Yeah, you are. Come on. There's nothing wrong with our relationship because it's working for me. There's nothing wrong with our relationship because it's working for me. I mean, it's the government, right? I have a complaint. I know you don't. I got my taxes from you. It's all working fine for me, right? Are you supposed to have a voice in a relationship? Are you supposed to have preferences? Are people supposed to accommodate you in a relationship? Yeah, of course.
[2:11:15] Yes.
[2:11:16] Of course. Of course. Right? Is your mother doing that? No. Quite the opposite. She's telling you that you're wrong if you say you're unhappy. You misinterpreted things. You misremember things. I never did that. It wasn't that much. You turned out fine. I did the best I could. There was no problem. I couldn't have known. Your father just turned. Right? She's just talking to her own conscience. She's not even talking to you, right?
[2:11:43] Yeah, it's like I don't exist.
[2:11:44] Right. Right.
[2:11:49] Because, like, I've been thinking about this all my life.
[2:11:51] And if you can't exist in the presence of a woman like your mother, you can't really exist with other people, and particularly women, right? And if you can't exist with other women, how can you have very much desire? Right. Punch the wall and get the girl comes from the same place, right? So who's the girl you've most wanted to date in your life?
[2:12:21] You mean like...
[2:12:23] The woman you've been most passionate for, the woman you've just been desperate to date, would do anything, bear any burden, climb every tree, swim every ocean. Has there been one?
[2:12:35] Not really.
[2:12:36] Right.
[2:12:36] Did I have like a crush? Yeah, but like...
[2:12:39] No, no, no. Like someone you're like, I gotta get her.
[2:12:43] No, never.
[2:12:44] Well, why not?
[2:12:50] Not like i don't think i'm good enough.
[2:12:52] Well that's just an npc answer man you got to do better than that i could even hear the i just make up some shit and throw it at steph and see if it sticks i could hear that in your voice man uh i'm not good enough okay.
[2:13:04] Okay okay okay.
[2:13:05] So how about you don't npc me that.
[2:13:08] That passion because.
[2:13:10] That's the basis of pair bonding yeah it doesn't mean you get the girl, but at least the girl knows that you're really passionate about her, which is something that makes her safe to... Like, the pair bonding potential is there, right?
[2:13:23] Yeah.
[2:13:24] Or you, like, play it cool and kind of distant?
[2:13:28] Yeah, but, like, that doesn't work.
[2:13:31] No.
[2:13:35] You're not a Giga Chad.
[2:13:37] I want to... I want to get the girl... Well, no, but see, the Giga Chad doesn't get the girl either. He just gets her body. I mean, the gigachad of, like, a lot of sex, the Huberman or whatever, right? Like, the lot of sex guy? It's like, he doesn't get love. He doesn't get the girl.
[2:13:57] Like, he chooses it to be that way, though. He's in power there.
[2:14:03] Oh, so he chooses his life, but you're a victim of having too big a nose.
[2:14:11] Well, it's like, I'd rather be in his shoes.
[2:14:14] He has choice. but you don't. What if being the Giga Chad is just accepting that you have choice? And you choose quality, not just sex.
[2:14:38] I mean, everybody has choice, of course. But as in my beginning statement says, our genetics, none of it's equal.
[2:14:54] So, I mean, it's the blinding insight that some people are more physically attractive than others?
[2:15:02] It doesn't have to be attractional like for example if you're like 5'3 right like you could want to be an NBA star all you want not going to happen right so what does being.
[2:15:13] An NBA star have to do with living a quality virtuous life.
[2:15:20] Well it's easier to live a quality virtuous life when you have options.
[2:15:25] Why would you say that, Do you think that the Giga-Chads are living a quality, virtuous life by banging everything with a pulse? Do you not think that they're lured into the Satanism of the flesh? That they are having false gods before virtue called vagina? Oh, you envy them, right? Yeah.
[2:15:53] You could say that.
[2:15:54] Right. So envy is the mark of the beta, right?
[2:15:58] I mean, yeah, if you're not GigaChad, you're beta.
[2:16:00] Well, I don't know. It's that simple. There's probably more layers, but... Look, I understand it. Like, you know, when I was losing my hair, I had friends who had, like, fantastic hair, right? And I would envy that, right? I get that. I understand that. But then, I mean, you have to make a choice, right? I mean, I'm either going to get hair transplants, or I'm going to develop other qualities to compensate. Qualities such as being very fit, having good teeth, skin care regimen, exercise, sunshine, being well-read, a great conversationalist, working to be funnier and more spontaneous. simultaneous so you can sit in this sort of oily pit of envy or you can say yeah other people have some advantages big fucking whoop yeah.
[2:16:58] And i try to remedy it.
[2:16:59] Well i understand that but you mean with the nose with the nose yeah.
[2:17:05] Gym skincare like styling like it's not like i just said there Oh, I'm a loser. That's it. That's the enemy.
[2:17:15] Okay. And how long you've been listening to this show for quite some time, right?
[2:17:20] Yeah.
[2:17:21] And there's nothing wrong, obviously, the gym and the healthcare and the, sorry, the skincare and all of that. Good stuff, man. Good for you, right? But this is a show of philosophy, not personal appearance, right?
[2:17:35] Yeah.
[2:17:36] So. Yeah.
[2:17:39] Have you been lying to your mother? Kind of. Right? Yeah, definitely. Because you're not telling her how unhappy you are. You're not telling her how she's not meeting your needs. You're not telling her of the things you do need and saying that it's really, really important, right?
[2:17:53] Yeah.
[2:17:56] So, and I'm not saying you're some big liar, but there has been falsehood in your relationship with your mother, right? Which I understand and I sympathize with. This is how you were raised and it's a survival strategy, so I'm not blaming you for any of this. But it is kind of a fact, is it not? yeah okay do you think that women have evolved to suss out liars, um not how they are now but do you think a man who claimed to love them who then impregnated them and ran away would often be a death sentence for the child if not the mother right.
[2:18:37] But if it was like that in the past, then that gene should have been bred out of existence. But no, it's prevalent. It's extremely prevalent.
[2:18:45] No, we have adaptability. We're not genetic-based life forms. So women have still evolved to figure out who a liar is. But because of the current political and economic circumstances, they don't particularly care. Yeah.
[2:19:04] It's like, a woman's going to let a good-looking guy get away with lies. Yeah, if you're less than a good-looking guy, yeah, she'll call you out on it.
[2:19:12] Okay.
[2:19:13] You'll be held to a higher standard.
[2:19:14] You say a woman is going to let a good-looking guy get away with lies, but they still can't have a relationship because it's mutual contempt based upon shallow lust masquerading as something more.
[2:19:25] Yeah, it's going to be a shallow relationship. Okay.
[2:19:27] Okay, so women have evolved to figure out if a man is lying, and men have evolved to figure out if a woman is crazy. You know, the hot crazy matrix, blah, blah, blah, right? Now, we can say, well, based upon the current circumstances and, you know, the fact that women are all ANCAP when it comes to sex and all communist when it comes to income redistribution. So, yeah, we've got all of this distorted systems going on. But women still, I mean, men know when a woman's crazy and women know when a man is lying. Now, they can choose to ignore this because it doesn't matter as much in the short run because of these weird incentives that we've got going on in the world. But that's the reality. So, if you lie in your primary relationship, which you have, which is with your mother, right?
[2:20:19] Yep.
[2:20:19] If you misrepresent, if you don't have needs, if you appease, if you, whatever, treat her as a toddler and lower your expectations and all of that. Women are aware of that from like the third text you have. I don't know how it happens because I'm not a woman, but it happens. Now, and obviously I'm pushing 60. I've known enough women over the course of my life to know just how incredible their instincts are, right? Now, if you want to get a girlfriend who's quality, right? You don't just want a girlfriend who's going to break your heart and give you an STD and get pregnant and accuse you of misconduct like you want a quality woman, right? If you're lying in your primary relationship, can you get a quality woman based on your integrity?
[2:21:04] No.
[2:21:04] No. Is that anything to do with the size of your nose?
[2:21:12] Of course not, but wouldn't you say...
[2:21:15] We have worked in a longer nose into lying like Pinocchio. This is really subtle allegorical workshop here. Anyway, sorry, go on.
[2:21:22] Wouldn't you say that there needs to be some form of attraction? In order for her to meet you, to feel your brain out, she needs to be somewhat attracted to you. You didn't meet your wife, you guys didn't see each other. Of course, you saw each other first, then you agreed on a date, etc. Etc. So attraction would help that anyway to facilitate that.
[2:21:46] No, but we aren't each other's physical types. The attraction was about the conversation. Now, I mean, of course, we've grown into, you know, healthy marital lust and all of that, but I didn't look at her and say, what a knockout. She was not my particular type, although she's lovely.
[2:22:06] So you would say that would be...
[2:22:08] The attraction was based upon the quality of the conversation and the kindness and thoughtfulness that I got in her and she got in me.
[2:22:19] So would you say that there would be no any disqualifiers physically for that date not to happen?
[2:22:26] What do you mean?
[2:22:28] Like if she had too big of a noise or her eyes were too far apart like you, that wouldn't matter? Or she was bald maybe?
[2:22:36] Okay, let's not get crazy here. no I'm not sure what you mean if her nose was too big would I have I mean the conversation was so great she could have had three noses honestly I don't care, and the conversation has remained fantastic for like 22 years, I'm not marrying a nose. I'm marrying a soul. I'm marrying a person. And, you know, whatever looks is involved are going to fade. What are you going to do with the last 30 years of your marriage from like 60 to 90, right? If it's just looks.
[2:23:16] It doesn't have to be all looks, but I think looks are definitely a part of the equation. You can't be like a goblin, like three feet or...
[2:23:24] Okay but see you're just running to these ridiculous extremes right now i wouldn't i wouldn't have married an obese woman okay.
[2:23:32] Boom and obese.
[2:23:33] No no but obesity is controllable i wouldn't marry a woman because i'm a very active person and i would want somebody who would be, good with kids and it's tough to be good with kids if you're obese because you can't run around and play with them we wouldn't be able to do a lot of stuff together my wife and i play a lot of sports sports together, we go on a lot of hikes together. And it would be an indication, of course, of somebody who was a short-term gratification expert and not a long-term gratification expert, which would probably indicate some level of self-awareness or intelligence or something like that, right? So you say, boom, like your nose is the same as a woman who's significantly overweight. But that's not the same thing at all. One's chosen and one's not. I'm not going to judge someone by the size of their nose because they didn't choose the size of their nose. Okay. Any more than some woman. If some woman judges me as deficient because I'm bald, well, you know, go find a hairy guy. You know, if that's, if the quality of my character doesn't matter, how good a father I'm going to be, how good a husband I'm going to be, how good a friend and provider I'm going to be, if none of that matters, but the accidental hair protein strands coming coming off my scalp, but what matters, okay, then you should go and do that.
[2:24:58] Woman has, I mean, I don't know if you want to go into like height, for example, like if you were five feet tall, would your wife talk to you?
[2:25:08] Oh, my, my wife is short and she's taller than her own father. So, yeah. Because here's the thing. Let's say that I was five feet tall. Are you five feet tall? Are we talking purely theoretical here?
[2:25:22] No, theoretical. I'm, I'm your height.
[2:25:25] Okay. So you're above average, right?
[2:25:27] Yeah.
[2:25:27] Okay. Okay, so what are we talking about mystery dwarf guy for?
[2:25:31] It's because I'm trying to prove there is some things that are in our genetics that people will disqualify you just based off of that.
[2:25:38] Jesus, man, you're a fucking hard work, I'll tell you, straight up. We were talking about you being honest with your mother, right?
[2:25:45] Yep.
[2:25:46] And what are we talking about now? Some five-foot dwarf guy with three eyes and alopecia? you? Like, you understand how this is your mom completely intervening and fucking up our conversation. I'm talking to you, about being honest with your mother, and the fact that you're not honest with your mother is crippling your ability to get a good woman. And you're dragging me off on all these completely cockeyed theoreticals. Why?
[2:26:19] It's a proof of point, but we can move on.
[2:26:21] Okay, no, I'm happy to hear. What's the point? Does it have anything to do with you being honest with your mother?
[2:26:29] No.
[2:26:29] So what's the point then? I'm not trying to sound hostile. I'm genuinely curious if there's a point. But it seems to me that being honest with your mother is under your control. The dating life of a five-foot guy is not.
[2:26:42] It's because you want to judge people based on their character, not their genetics, right? Right. But it's historically speaking, it's like women want to date taller guys at all times. Historically today, it's always been this way. That's why the average height of a man is increasing.
[2:27:00] Well, that also has to do with nutrition, things like that, too. Right. So, OK, obviously, you if you want to talk evolutionary biology, if women want to date taller guys, why are they shorter guys?
[2:27:12] Because historically, there's been shorter guys.
[2:27:15] Guys no why are there there were short guys even in the past there were some variations in male height even in the past so men don't like to date women who are bald so there are virtually no bald women right yep okay so why are there short guys why is there a gene for short why has it not been taken out of the equation because.
[2:27:35] Height is a relative back back in a day the average was like five i think five six now the average is like five nine so.
[2:27:42] Yeah you get that there was a bell curve in the past as well, right? Of height.
[2:27:46] Yeah, so the bottom half of that bell curve is basically being cut out of the gene pool at all times.
[2:27:54] So, if we're talking about prior to the modern era, okay, so when did height start significantly increasing?
[2:28:04] During, like right before World War I, I think.
[2:28:06] Okay. So, for the other hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years of human evolution, there were still short guys.
[2:28:17] No, there's always going to be short guys, always.
[2:28:20] No.
[2:28:20] Even today there's short guys.
[2:28:21] If women won't date short guys, the short genes will vanish.
[2:28:24] No, because height is relative.
[2:28:27] Okay, I'm not going around in these circles. If you don't grasp this concept, that just because you move the bell curve doesn't mean that there was no bell curve in the past. So let's say the average height for guys in the past was 5'6". There'd still be a bell curve. 5' to 6' or whatever, right? Now the average height for guys is 6', so there's going to be 5'6 guys and 6'6 guys and all of that. But it's just a moving bell curve, right? right.
[2:28:52] Yes and where did all the genetics for the five four guys go from the previous bell curve.
[2:29:00] But we're not i'm talking about human evolution if women had evolved to always reject shorter guys there'd be no shorter guys, I mean, there are no four-foot-tall giraffes because, right, they don't get mated with, right?
[2:29:17] Yeah, but they used to be, and now they're not in the gene pool.
[2:29:20] Right. So we still, I'm just telling you, I mean, we can accept this or not because this is all just a big distraction. So the fact that there are short genes in humanity means that women are willing to mate with shorter guys. The fact that there are bald genes for men but not for women means that women are willing to mate with bald guys, although it does to some degree come through the maternal, but men aren't willing to mate with bald girls.
[2:29:51] Correct.
[2:29:53] So you understand that baldness for men has not been selected out of the gene pool because women will mate with that, right? And there's a height variation among men because women are willing to mate with shorter men. But since this doesn't have anything to do with either of us, this is just another annoying distraction, which your mom's throwing in so you don't have to talk about your mom. Because it doesn't apply to you, right?
[2:30:24] Nope.
[2:30:24] Okay, so why are you bringing it up?
[2:30:29] I forgot. I already forgot.
[2:30:31] I bet you did. Right? So, are you going to be honest with your mom?
[2:30:38] Yeah.
[2:30:40] I don't believe you.
[2:30:40] I will. I will. I believe you.
[2:30:43] You know what? How much emotion have you had over the course of this conversation?
[2:30:49] I may not be showing it, but internally, I'm feeling it.
[2:30:52] Okay. Why don't you show your emotion?
[2:30:57] Because in the past when I did, nobody cared.
[2:31:02] Okay, that's a full fucking Vienna Orchestra of Violinic Self-Pity. What are you talking about? What do you mean, nobody? Nobody ever cared about anything you were feeling over the course of your entire life? I can get that in the army. I can get that with your mother and the non-bonding men she chose. But when you say nobody, who do you mean?
[2:31:28] I mean my family and like I don't.
[2:31:32] What family you just have a mother don't you yeah so why didn't you say that, why didn't you show emotion because my mother didn't care about nobody my family it's just your mother isn't it it's you and your mom.
[2:31:46] Yeah it's the people I try to be close with which is.
[2:31:52] Obviously how can you be close to people if you're still lying to your mom, No.
[2:31:58] I can't.
[2:31:58] So you keep, you, oh my God, this is like trying to get you to connect to your mom's culpability or responsibility in any of these things feels like an almost impossible task. Why do you hide your emotions from people? Do you see it? Who, okay, why should a woman choose you? Let me ask you that. Why should a woman choose you? Lots of guys out there, better looking guys than you, better looking guys than me, whatever, right? Taller guys than you, taller guys than me, richer guys than you, richer guys than me, whatever.
[2:32:27] Why should a woman choose you? I have a slightly smaller nose is not quite the answer you're looking for, right?
[2:32:39] I mean, I'm better looking than most. That's a shallow reason.
[2:32:43] That's not unimportant. But why would a woman choose to bond with you? And I'm not saying there's no good reason, but it's a question we have to answer, right?
[2:32:57] It's a bunch of shallow reasons.
[2:33:01] Let's hear them anyway.
[2:33:04] Better than the average looks-wise, height-wise, financially I'm well off. I'm aggressive most of the time. I may not sound like it in this conversation, but I'm assertive. At least when I think I'm in the right.
[2:33:22] Well, I'm not with your mom, you're not.
[2:33:24] Yeah, definitely not with my mom.
[2:33:26] But like at work and stuff, right?
[2:33:29] Repeat that?
[2:33:30] At work, you're assertive?
[2:33:33] Yeah like i get in trouble because of it.
[2:33:36] Yeah so like you're that's like your mom right your mom is competent at work and incompetent in relationships right yeah.
[2:33:41] Like when i know something's not it like i will ruthlessly pursue it could be.
[2:33:47] At my own work yeah but you haven't had that kind of passion for a woman right no right okay so.
[2:33:56] I need to bridge that gap.
[2:34:00] Why will someone choose you? And you want a woman who's quality, which means she's got options, right?
[2:34:10] Yeah.
[2:34:10] So, out of the waving hands of pick me, pick me, why is she picking you?
[2:34:21] I'm the best you can pick from in terms of I can, I can hold up a conversation. I'm into history, philosophy, even religion. I'm an atheist, but like I'm still into religion. Find a very interesting, I can definitely hold my way in a conversation. Again, I'm financially, I'm pretty well off and physically I'm well off too. So what am I missing here, Stefan?
[2:34:52] I mean i'm sorry because you're going to kick yourself do.
[2:34:56] It do it.
[2:34:57] So you've got money good conversation list you know about this that the other history and religion and and all of that.
[2:35:06] Kick me in the balls.
[2:35:07] What's my definition of love.
[2:35:12] Virtue you gotta love for virtue.
[2:35:14] You mentioned anything about virtue you no.
[2:35:17] I mentioned a bunch of shallow things.
[2:35:18] No no philosophy is not shallow history is not shallow.
[2:35:23] It's like uh you i remember you said it's like mental masturbation it's just, like you say it but not practice it.
[2:35:30] I don't know what you're referring to.
[2:35:33] Yeah me either.
[2:35:34] Okay good i'm glad we agreed on that so uh so um you could disagree with my definition although i have found it to be universally true and i've made a pretty rational case for it i think but if i've defined love and maybe you've accepted do i mean do you accept that it's our response to virtue if a virtuous yes okay so if i say why would a woman pick you why would a woman which is saying why would a woman fall in love with you and you're talking to the guy who says love is virtue and i say well why and you say anything but virtue you. Basically, right?
[2:36:09] Mm-hmm.
[2:36:09] Good looking, got money, decent conversation list, no history, whatever, right? None of those are virtuous, right? Essentially. So, that's, this is why a woman can't pick you. Because your ideas don't hang together. If you accept my definition of love and I say, why would a woman fall in love with you? And you say, well, all of these things that have nothing to do with your definition, which you accept, right?
[2:36:44] Yeah.
[2:36:45] If I say, how do I get to Vegas? You say, go north. When in fact, you believe both in helping people get to Vegas and also know that it's going south instead. That would be kind of weird, right?
[2:36:58] That would be, like, mischievous.
[2:37:00] Oh, well, it would be wrong. It'd be bad.
[2:37:03] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:37:04] Be lying. So, why is virtue absent from your definition of love or attachment? Hint, she gave birth to you.
[2:37:22] My mother? Yeah.
[2:37:23] Are you holding your mother to objective virtues?
[2:37:26] No.
[2:37:27] No. So then virtue can't be part of your equation of pair bonding, can't be part of your equation of love. So you can't win a woman through virtue. Because your mom's not keeping you through virtue.
[2:37:44] Yeah, like I haven't seen an example of it.
[2:37:48] Sorry?
[2:37:49] I haven't seen an example of it, so of course it's absent.
[2:37:52] Example of what?
[2:37:54] A virtuous relationship. Relationship.
[2:37:57] Do you know why?
[2:38:02] Because I've never seen it in my life.
[2:38:04] Do you know why you haven't seen it?
[2:38:07] Why, Stefan, tell me.
[2:38:12] Well, if you're a criminal, do you hang out with a lot of honest, decent people?
[2:38:17] No, you hang out with criminals.
[2:38:23] So, if you don't demand virtue from your relationships, virtuous people won't spend time with you, because that means spending time with amoral or bad people. If I was in town and you said, hey, come have lunch with my mom, what would I say?
[2:38:39] Hell no.
[2:38:40] No, thank you.
[2:38:42] Yeah, no, thank you.
[2:38:43] Right. So, the people of integrity, people of virtue, people of this kind of moral quality... we're scanning all the time. It's a non-stop process. I mean, there's lots of people who want to meet me, lots of people who want to chat with me, and so on. And I'm scanning, right?
[2:39:10] Yeah.
[2:39:12] I'm scanning for honesty and integrity and virtue and so on, right?
[2:39:19] Correct. Correct.
[2:39:23] So, if I met you, what would I get out of meeting you? And listen, you're a young man. You're further ahead than I was at your age. So, please understand this is nothing critical or I'm not trying to put you down at all. You're way further ahead than I was at your age. So, this is with all deep humility, right? What would I get? I'd get, okay, here's a guy. He's kind of in his head. he's kind of theoretical and there's an angry manipulative side of him that comes from his mom that is constantly working to defend his mom which is why I got annoyed at all these theoreticals coming in when we started to talk about you being honest with your mom, Your mom moved in to drag me off to Theoreticals. And I was following, and then I had to shake my head and say, wait, what the hell? What are we talking about this for? Do you know what I mean?
[2:40:21] It's convincing, huh?
[2:40:22] Oh, it really is. Yeah, no, I mean, your mom must be fantastic at this stuff.
[2:40:26] I think I'm better than her at it.
[2:40:29] I do believe that's true. I do believe that's true. And I mean, were you aware that you were doing that?
[2:40:41] Sidetracking, not really because I thought it's relevant but now I forgot what it was about so it's better to drop it.
[2:40:50] Well I mean it might have been relevant if you were very short but you're taller than average so that's not an issue right yeah, okay so and of course it's you are intelligent enough to know that I'm highly susceptible to theoreticals that's not what I do, there's a lot of theoreticals right so you really laid a perfect bait there right.
[2:41:14] I guess so yeah.
[2:41:15] We spent a couple of minutes going down this road before I was like whoa what the hell, why are we here right, yeah so, if you move into guard your mother whenever honesty, integrity or directness is brought up A woman that's going to torpedo a relationship with a woman.
[2:41:43] A woman of virtue, definitely.
[2:41:45] Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[2:41:51] I see it.
[2:41:52] If you sacrifice honesty and integrity at the altar of fear, and I understand the fear. I really do. I'm not putting you down for it. You're a courageous man, for sure. but you're afraid of your mother's temper and rejection, which I completely understand, and that's the choice. You can stay in a relationship with your mother, such as it is. You can choose to not tell her the truth. I'm just saying, don't lie to yourself about what you're doing and the price you're paying. so if your mom calls and you're like okay well you know I don't want to confront her I've chosen not to confront her I've chosen not to be honest I'm going to pick up the phone and I'm going to lie and pretend everything's fine, That's, to me, just don't lie to yourself about what's happening. I'm scared of her. I'm scared of her temper, her rejection, her whatever, right? And I'm willing to sacrifice honesty and integrity with a potential mate for the sake of this.
[2:43:05] Not worth it.
[2:43:06] I'm happy to chat with the woman who told me to get a sex toy rather than admit any problems with her parenting. and I'm either going to tell a potential girlfriend about my mother telling me they had a sex doll or I'm going to lie about it, thus protecting my mother's corruption from my potential girlfriend and lying to her. And also, if it comes out at some point, let's say you're dating some girl, you've hid the corruption of your mother from your girlfriend, and your mother makes that joke about, oh yeah, I remember a couple of years ago telling him to get a sex doll because he couldn't get a girlfriend. I'm glad he didn't get a sex doll and got you, ha ha ha, right? And she turns to you and she's like, what the hell? Your mother told you to get a sex doll and you never told me that? How's that day for you?
[2:44:06] That'll ruin that day.
[2:44:08] More than that day. because then she'd be like, okay, so you're perfectly comfortable lying to me to maintain appearances. So what else did you lie about? What else are you lying about? Is that even your real nose? No, I'm kidding. You could tell her that, right? But yeah, that's...
[2:44:27] Yeah, I understand. You poisoned the well.
[2:44:30] I'm sorry?
[2:44:31] You poisoned the well when you withhold information. Right.
[2:44:37] So, yeah, I mean, And you don't have to tell the truth. It's not a violation of the UPB to not tell the truth. But it's really, really not healthy to lie to yourself about it.
[2:44:52] Yeah. Gotta stop living a lie.
[2:44:58] Well, or be honest with yourself about what you're doing. You know, like if, if some guy, I don't know, uh, uh, you know, it's the old story about the, the, the guy who bursts into the house and says to the husband, where's your wife? I want to beat her up. Well, he's going to lie. I don't know where she is. She's not right. Whatever. Right.
[2:45:15] Yep.
[2:45:15] But he's not, he's not lying to himself. He's just lying to the person. And so if people say, well, why did you lie to that guy? It's like, well, to protect my wife, of course He knows he's lying, he knows he did lie And he's very comfortable with it, right?
[2:45:29] Yeah So, if you choose not to be honest with your mother, At least Don't lie to yourself about it And say, okay, well, you know, she's, Big and scary And I'm willing to sacrifice Being attractive to women And maybe even ending up with some maternally approved Sex toy, or sex doll all and uh that's you know i'll i'll pay that price because i'm scary okay i mean that's it's not it's not i mean it's not what i would recommend but it's better than whatever's happening here where it's like structural this and monogamy that and short jeans and bell curves and historically and 200 like that's all nonsense because you you can start blaming society, when you're honest in your personal relationships but if you're not honest in your personal and relationships, blaming society. You know, women, quality women don't want to date people who don't tell the truth, especially to themselves, because they can't be trusted, right? So, yeah, that's my sort of big takeaway. It's like, yeah, blame society all you want, but you've got to clean up your own life first, right? Otherwise, your mom's pointing you at society so you don't talk to her, honestly.
[2:46:41] You always say this. It's like men will, like, they'll fight wars before they tell the truth to their parents or their mothers.
[2:46:47] Something like.
[2:46:48] That yeah it's like we're gonna do everything except what needs to be done.
[2:46:52] Well and of course if you wanted the last thing I'll mention here evolutionarily speaking is you know we evolved in places where if you had a mom all the women were like the mom, And so if you were to criticize the mom, you probably wouldn't get anyone to mate with you because they'd all pull together and so on. But we have much more choice now. And I think we can afford honesty because we can find quality people, which really wasn't much of an option in the past.
[2:47:23] I mean, I was going to take this short thing to the choice. Like women never have this much freedom of choice. Back then, they were forced into marriages. Like, you know this.
[2:47:32] Well, no, I don't think women have much freedom of choice at the moment because they're removed from consequences. And if you remove consequences from people, their choices get all screwed up. Now, I know that sounds kind of deterministic.
[2:47:47] Aren't you taking away their agency in this?
[2:47:51] Yes, I'm aware of that. People do respond to incentives. and incentives allow people to give themselves excuses and that does generate bad behavior so i'm not going to say that people are immune from incentives i mean that's the foundational aspect of economics so people do respond to incentives otherwise people would work just as hard in a socialist factory as they do in a capitalist factory so people do respond to incentives and listen there obviously there are systemic problems but you can't wait until the the systemic problems get fixed to date. So you have to take maximum self-ownership and you have to give maximum self-ownership. And if you take maximum self-ownership, you'll be most compatible with people who themselves take maximum self-ownership. So yes, absolutely, the incentives all kinds of screwed up. But if you take maximum self-ownership, you'll end up with someone like yourself. And that's the foundation of a great relationship because you won't have the excuse for bad behavior and you won't be able to blame each other. So I think that's the way to go.
[2:48:54] You're you're 100 right i expect uh the truth from my friends i should expect that from my personal relationship as well yeah.
[2:49:05] So go have a chat.
[2:49:06] All right.
[2:49:07] Will you keep me posted about how it's going of.
[2:49:10] Course i was gonna ask you do people give you updates often i.
[2:49:15] Wouldn't say often but it certainly happens.
[2:49:16] I was wondering you could do like an episode all from this episode now they're or here, like before and after.
[2:49:23] Maybe, yeah. We'll do, maybe I'll just do a round table of prior call-ins and everyone can give me an update. All right. Thanks, man. Keep me posted. And I appreciate the call today. You did a great job.
[2:49:32] Thank you. Thank you for yourself.
[2:49:33] Bye. Bye-bye.
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