0:00 - Family Ties and Tensions
16:20 - Confronting the Past
44:10 - The Cycle of Abuse
54:27 - Seeking Safety and Closure
55:44 - The Dangers of Ignoring Abuse
57:35 - The Role of Supportive Women
59:42 - Dating Life Transformation
1:01:31 - Reflections on Past Relationships
1:03:31 - Overcoming Addiction and Weight Loss
1:04:59 - Heartbreak on Valentine's Day
1:08:45 - Costly Lessons in Relationships
1:17:03 - The Importance of Family in Marriage
1:29:11 - The Need for Honest Conversations
1:34:27 - Seeking Curiosity in Relationships
1:39:38 - Love's Shadow and the Pursuit of Virtue
In this episode, we delve into a deeply personal and complex call from a listener who has recently filed a restraining order against his father after a distressing incident of trespassing and harassment. This marks a significant turning point for him, as he reflects on the long-standing issues in their relationship. The conversation opens with the caller discussing the emotional impact of enforcing boundaries with a parent whose actions have caused severe pain. The caller poignantly shares the troubling history of their relationship, illustrating how the father’s high expectations and unpredictable behavior resulted in years of distress.
As the dialogue progresses, we explore the caller's challenging childhood experiences shaped by his father's volatility. The listener recounts pivotal moments, including an alarming trip to Mexico where their father exhibited manipulative behavior. This incident becomes a crucial factor in his decision to sever ties, mirroring the earlier decision made by his sister. We'll examine how the psychological burden of familial expectations can shackle a person's sense of self-worth, invoking a sense of urgency to escape harmful dynamics.
The conversation takes on a reflective tone as the caller seeks advice on moving forward and how to maintain emotional fulfillment despite the scars left by his father’s harshness. Moving to a broader perspective, I emphasize the societal tendency to downplay abusive behavior within family structures, noting the discomfort many feel in confronting such realities. We discuss how this often leads to a lack of sympathy when victims speak out about the abuse they endure, explaining why it’s vital for those affected to find voices that validate their experiences.
Throughout our discussion, the caller's journey reveals the complexity of navigating relationships with family members who enable abusive behavior. I encourage him to recognize the propensity for others to minimize a victim’s experiences by defaulting to loyalty, proposing that true love sometimes means protecting oneself from those who fail to recognize their harmful behaviors. The themes of personal integrity and accountability are underscored as we explore the difficulty in achieving closure when familial bonds are entangled with trauma.
The episode peaks with a valuable exploration of relationships, urging the caller to prioritize virtues such as integrity and self-worth when assessing potential partners. We discuss the importance of finding a companion who respects that loyalty to self is not only necessary but a foundation for healthy relationships. The distinction between love and enabling behavior is clarified, stressing that a true partner is one who fiercely supports, not one who overlooks harms perpetrated by family.
Towards the end of the conversation, I challenge the listener to envision what healthy boundaries look like. The conversation reinforces the imperative of seeking relationships that bolster his well-being, encouraging him to filter out negative influences that are embedded within family dynamics. In conclusion, this episode serves as an exploration of the complexities of familial loyalty, personal integrity, and the journeys we undertake in pursuit of healthier relationships.
[0:00] Stefan, I just filed a restraining order against my dad after he trespassed at my house refusing to leave. My sister stopped speaking to him 15 years before I did. She was raised by a different mother. After he trespassed, he sent me an email mocking my deceased mother, showing his intentions were as expected to intimidate me. I was looking for general life advice on how to move on and how How to feel fulfilled in the present in hopes of his past mistreatments not having too much of a negative effect on my current life.
[0:38] Gosh, I'm really sorry to hear this. This kind of intrusions and aggressions are very, very hard to deal with. And I guess if you can just give me a bit of the story of your childhood, your family life as a whole, I'd appreciate that.
[0:53] Of course. So my parents were married until I was about two years old, and the general issues that I had had with my dad growing up, I spent a significant amount of time with him because my mom was very sick with cancer at the time. She did survive that. Unfortunately, she passed this year. Um, uh, the general things that were very difficult to deal with, uh, my dad on is he had very high standards for me and virtually none for, uh, himself. He would get absolutely enraged at random, trivial nonsense, and he was always trying to get one over on me. So I had spent basically 20 years around him walking on eggshells, always terrified of the next thing flipping him out.
[1:45] And when we went to Mexico, he actually tried to get one over on me because he wasn't happy that I only spent one hour with him on the separate island. And as opposed to the recommended seven hours or so, he tried hiding my passport so I couldn't get my COVID test to get back into America. So I would be stranded there. And when I asked him, by any chance, did you intentionally try to do that to teach me a lesson? I mean, it sounds weird, but it's in the back of my mind. I have to ask you, was it you? Because I know I didn't just accidentally misplace the passport. And then he writes me a long text explaining how you're so unappreciative. You're Mr. I can do everything all by myself. So let's see you do things by yourself. And on that day, I just said, you know what, I think I'm going to do what my sister did 15 years ago and just no longer have a relationship with someone who doesn't appreciate me or respect me. It's just too exhausting. Life is just a scarce amount of time. We are here on earth, and I have no reason to spend it with someone who actively unappreciates me.
[3:04] Wow, that's really something. And how long have you listened to what I do?
[3:10] So i originally started listening i i bet it was like six years ago when i first came across, video titled the truth about slavery i just came across it randomly i watched that i watched one or two call-in shows but i just devoured your books and your propaganda analysis series where you'd read an article and reviewed it line by line um so that was always the uh the big one for me. I would guess six years.
[3:41] Okay, got it. How old were you or when did the incident happen with the passport?
[3:45] That was three years ago and that was just the final straw. But I actually, before I really made the decision, so that day we're in Mexico and I go, well, he's got access to my ticket back. So, and even so I'm not going to make a decision right here. I sat on this for For a month before ever actually telling him, I don't want to talk to you again. And I wrote out a whole list of, uh, it's, it's a document I titled dad reasons, uh, both general and specific reasons that I'm not talking to him. Cause I really wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. And after a month, I just decided that enough was enough. So three years ago.
[4:30] Okay. Got it. And what's happened since.
[4:37] Um, he had reached out a couple times to me and I blocked his email and then he would talk to my mom every now and then. And my mom would give him updates. And then one time he came to the door, he had seen a speech I gave at on social justice and he just came to the door, knocked on it and said, I'm very proud of you, son. And then I said, please go away. And he left. And then six months later was this incident just the other day. So this is why I got the restraining order. He likes to play this game where he is a one-man show of good cop, bad cop to see what's going to get more attention from me. So, yes, the first time he came, it was just, hey, son, I saw your social justice speech. I'm very proud of you. The next time, banging, screaming, ringing the doorbell nonstop for five minutes straight, so long that the police had time to arrive. So, yeah, that has really been it for the last three years.
[5:46] Okay, so he mostly was not in touch with you. He would just get information from your mom. And when did they split?
[5:51] It i want to say 99 um okay got it did he remarry no um he uh he had one girlfriend that uh that i ever met um he i have uh two other siblings uh from two other moms um so my mom was uh his second marriage right.
[6:16] Okay and what did you think what made him so appealing to women.
[6:21] Well uh he was very good looking and very muscular uh in his uh military days i asked my mom why she married him because uh she uh i was always curious because i'm like dad's a rageaholic why did you marry him And she goes, I laughed so much with your dad. They met at Alcoholics Anonymous. And it was, yeah, the things I remember her saying were, he always made me laugh. And he seemed that he could be very loving at certain moments.
[6:57] Huh. All right. And do you know much about your father's personal history?
[7:06] Yes. In fact, that was the frequent go-to every time I would ask him, you know, when you do thus and so, it really is a disincentive for me to drive all the way to your house and spend time with you. To which he immediately would just start telling me stories about his childhood, of which I felt very bad. Um, he, uh, had a, he grew up with a stepdad who was physically abusive and that all seemed very terrible. But, um, the, uh, the justification got, uh, uh, pretty slim after a time when he just wouldn't change. And every response to any criticism I had of him would be, well, my dad was way worse. Even in one of these emails I got, he goes, I don't know how mad you are at me, but there's no way it could be as mad as I was at my dad. It's just so boring and predictable at this point.
[8:00] Well, and it's interesting when you confront someone who's this aggressive and they have a pivot to their own lives, how often that just seems to be like, okay, well, let's make it about me. Let's have you focus on me. And then you kind of end up detaching from yourself. And you come with the problem. And then you end up having to sympathize with them. Yeah. And that's not a very good dynamic at all because it never ends up being about you or what your issues are.
[8:33] So I stopped talking to him three years ago and a few months ago, my mom passed away. And this was the email from three days ago. My wife, your mom. He doesn't say ex-wife, but he goes, wow, just wow. So mom died and you didn't even have the moral character to even have someone else tell me what's wrong with you. Now you're trying to blame me for saying it was karma what is wrong with you dear god i don't know what to say that was the first email he sent after hearing remember if.
[9:05] You can stay off the name so i would appreciate that.
[9:06] Oh i'm sorry that's fine i apologize um yes um so he got the information that my mother passed away and the first thing was to send an email and i just read in its entirety was, how come I wasn't told? No word about, I am so sorry about your mom, and I'm so sorry I haven't been a good enough dad to incentivize you to have open communication with me. I hope all is well. He called my grandma, my mom's mom, and gave her the same speech, and my aunt, and gave her the exact same speech. No apology for losing our mom. And so, unfortunately, in three years, he's exactly the same.
[9:49] Right. So can you just read that part, read that back again, stay off the name, and I just want to get that line by line.
[10:00] Son, wow, just wow. So mom died and you don't even have the moral character to even have someone else tell me?
[10:09] Okay, so hang on. So he starts off with Sun, which is a power play, right? You're an adult and all of that. So Sun is a power play. Wow, just wow. This is one of the most boring bits of trollery on the internet. Like, wow, man, just wow. Like, everything's so incomprehensible. Everything's, what you're doing is so weird. I mean, it's, so that's trollery 101. You don't even have the moral character. Right. Right. So this guy, you know, who's intimidating and aggressive and so on, and has, what, three different kids by three different women?
[10:42] Yeah.
[10:43] Yeah, he's gonna, he's, sorry, I don't mean to laugh because it's not funny, but he's gonna try and lecture you about moral character. And his daughter, as you say, 15 years ago, your half-sister cut off contact with him?
[10:54] Yeah, 15 years before I did so, 18 years as of now.
[10:58] Oh, okay. So this guy is gonna try and lecture about moral character. So he's So what people do, if they're this tyrannical, is they create a character. It really is an amazing work of fiction. They create a character. You know, son, you need to have moral character. You know, it's in the wow, just wow stuff, like your behavior is so incomprehensible to me, which is strange because he's your father, so he's supposed to teach you moral character. So if you don't have moral character, that would be more on him teaching you than you as an adult, at least from his perspective, right? It's like if I don't teach my kid Japanese, and I'm like, wow, just wow, you don't even speak Japanese. You don't even have Japanese in your vocabulary. It's like, well, you never taught me that, so how would I have? So they create this sort of fictionalized version of themselves. And it's kind of like a black theater improv situation where they instantly create a character. Inhabit that character and attempt to transmit self-attack to you, right? So it's trying to find that button and they create this character and they try to find this button that they can push to get through your armor, the button that will get you to attack yourself. And it's very, very cold, very cruel. I'm sorry about that. What was the next sentence?
[12:26] What's wrong with you? now you're going to try to blame me for saying it was karma this is in reference to a previous email where he said you've taken your mother's greatest hits and we know what she meant karma apparently he didn't know she had passed all he knew was she had a terminal illness two broken ankles heart failure and non-hotkins lymphoma so he only thought sorry why.
[12:51] Did she have two broken ankles.
[12:52] She had diabetes, and she fell, so she had permanent nerve damage in both. So that means when he came over Saturday to bang on the door, scream, and ring the bell nonstop, a very intimidating sound, by the way, he thought he was doing that to an elderly, terminally ill woman who was also in the house. Mm-hmm i mean this is just that that in that sense it's worse it's one thing to harass and intimidate you know his son a young man that's bad enough but to think my mom was in the house just psychotic right.
[13:37] Right um and we'll get to the the larger issue in in a sec, Okay, so because he said her illness is karma, he then has a vulnerability that you have something documented that shows coldness, right?
[13:57] Yeah.
[13:59] So he blamed her for her illness, but how dare you blame him for blaming her for her illness, right? Got it. All right. Next.
[14:09] Next what's wrong with you question mark dear god insert my name i don't know what to say.
[14:20] I always love it, and I love it in the very darkest sense, right? But I always love it when people say, after a couple of sentences of pretty savage attack, I don't know what to say. You know, here's my argument one, here's my argument two, here's how you're a bad person three, here's a negative thing you did four, here's, but I just don't know what to say. It's like, for somebody who doesn't know what to say, you seem to have an awful lot to say. Anyway, go on.
[14:48] That was uh the end of it the last line is dear god i don't know what to say but and i mean with uh but with all the uh emails here he had sent uh the first one he sent this was the really nefarious one because i was like all right here comes the fake apology that i've heard 400 times and then he never changes to my surprise it just said wow that escalated quickly lol after i had to call the cops to have him physically removed, so to speak, from my house. He had said, this one's too long, but I'll read one line. I taught you better than that. I wish you no harm, but unfortunately, you are living a lie. Your mom once told me she thought you may be gay. It doesn't matter to me. I will always love you, even though you continue to treat me like trash after everything I've done for you. There wasn't even an apology in this one. I mean, he's really just So that's why I had to get that order of protection.
[15:50] Wow. Okay. So, I mean, it seems that this is a man with no particular limits on what he's willing to do to win or get his way. There's no line he won't cross. There's no insult he won't sling. There's no emotional button he won't try to push.
[16:09] Yes, that is the general roadmap. Get the attention of others at all costs because negative attention is better than no attention at all.
[16:21] Right right okay well i'm i'm really sorry of course and you and your 20s or 30s 28 28 okay so i'm really sorry uh about this to have to deal with this is very very tough and and of course incredibly harmful and wretched and and it's not just what these kinds of people do to you and this is sort of the larger perspective that I think is worth talking about but of course I'm here to sort of serve your needs so whatever works best for you is essential but, when I have these kinds of calls the one thing that seems to be in common, is people reaching out almost like they're half drowning for a helping hand for someone to say this is It's irredeemably monstrous, like the behavior of your father.
[17:25] And I'm not sure what your experience has been. Certainly my experience with an abusive parent was nobody wanted to talk about it. Nobody wanted to admit anything. Nobody wanted to just actually look at the malevolent behavior and judge it for what it was. You know, aggressive, abusive, destructive, whatever. I mean, monstrous. Monstrous. Monstrous. People get very uncomfortable, in particular with parents, but people get very uncomfortable when you talk about malevolent or destructive behavior on the part of a parent. And that's really, really, in many ways, the hardest thing. It's not so much that you got mauled by a lion, it's that everybody said it was a kitten. Right? That's the crazy part of this. because, to me, the abuse that happened in your childhood, you know, a decade plus ago... Now, I'm not saying that what he did now was not aggressive and abusive, but, I mean, when he had direct power and control over you, the question is, why does it linger? And I think that's the essence of your email. And it's that...
[18:33] The abuse happened a long time ago, but what really aggressive and abusive people reveal to their victims is the amorality and cowardice of the world as a whole, that everyone just kind of edges away and everyone just kind of, you know, maybe makes a few sympathetic sounds but won't actually take any kind of moral stand that there is this blank erasure of people's so-called morality when abuse happens in general but in particular when the abuse, is from a parent i mean if you had if you were a woman and your boyfriend beat you up people would give you a huge amount of sympathy but as a man it's tougher to get sympathy as a whole and as a man who's abused by a father or a parent as a whole it's really tough to get sympathy people People just don't seem to want to call this kind of behavior for what it is.
[19:35] And they just get very uncomfortable hearing about it, and they just kind of want the issue to not be there. So, and I'm not trying to say you're like everybody else, but my general impression, and of course, correct me if I'm wrong, you know yourself infinitely better than I do. But my impression was, you know, and then he does this crazy thing, and then he does this crazy thing. And I think one of the reasons that you would say that is I'm not sure how much people in your life as a whole have acknowledged how destructive well and and violent this kind of behavior is, and I'm not sure if you've had that kind of comfort of you were victimized by a brute whose company you never chose. It's one thing to choose someone who turns out to be abusive. The abuse is still wrong, but there was an element of choice. But with parents, we don't choose them. We don't choose to be under their control. We can't choose to leave. It's almost like an arranged marriage in a really primitive culture. And so that should get the most sympathy, and yet so often it seems to get the least. So, what has your experience been as a whole, moving through society, being targeted in this kind of way? Have you received... You know, sort of genuine sympathy and compassion that this kind of victimhood will, or this kind of victimization would generally engender?
[21:05] So the general rule is no sympathy or microscopic sympathy because of the parent-child relationship. The three exceptions to the rule were my dad's other ex-wife, I refer to her as my stepmom, my sister and my dad's brother. The people who know him the best never even question and why I stopped talking to him. They totally understood. People in general will almost always say, oh, but he's your dad, but he's done so much for you, to which I've always responded, exactly. And that's why I gave him 1,000 excuses in a way that I would never give to anyone else. If any random friend or colleague, co-worker did two of the 1,000 things that I could think that he's inconvenienced me on, I'd kicked him out of my life immediately. But I felt so bad that he already had a child who didn't talk to him that I kept giving him all these excuses that I just stuck with it. And the general rule was, well, he's your dad and all of us have parents that have both good sides and bad sides. So hopefully you guys can work it out. It was like I just gave them a speech, pouring my heart out, and they said, you know, I didn't hear any of that, and I'm going to give you the advice that I would give anyone else regardless of what they had just told me. So that has been the most difficult part.
[22:33] Um people not taking me seriously uh in general on that but like i said the people who know him the best were the most supportive because they actually knew the uh the details it's funny you say the thing about uh it's like a pre-arranged marriage in a primitive culture one of the last fights my dad and i had was he was uh explaining the obligation that the eternal obligation that children have to their parents because the parent brought the child into the world therefore the The child owes the parent their life, basically, which, by the way, the implications after what happened last week are kind of scary. He believes he owns my life and everything in it, whatever. I had said to him, well, dad, I never agreed to be with you forever or to always give you my attention. However, you agreed twice before God to commit to marrying two women till death do you part. So, explicit promises that you make don't count, but promises I've never made, I'm all of a sudden beholden to. It's funny that that was the last discussion we had, and you had just mentioned that. So, yeah, that's generally how other people have received it, and that's how I see it generally.
[23:52] Yeah, I mean, you know, the sort of NPC meme of sort of programmed language, and people talk about it in politics and so on. But I find that the real NPC memes generally have to do with family. And that is where you just know everything that people have just programmed input-output, right? My father did bad things, but he's still your father. Yeah. And it's funny how he says, well, you're obligated to me forever. You have to look at me positively and so on. But he would brutally criticize his own father, right?
[24:32] Oh, nonstop. Right.
[24:34] And so it all is just that there's no coherence to the personality. It is just a power grab. And it is to me just like it's the probing for weakness right if you're in a war right you want to attack where you're strongest and the enemy is weakest therefore the enemy wants to portray where they're weakest as the strongest and vice versa and so you're just you're just probing for weakness or you know if you've ever you go if you're physical right then and they'll sort of feel around your abdomen does it hurt here does it hurt here so they're not trying to cause pain in that sense directly immediately but they're just probing they're just probing and there's no logical coherence it is what does the other person believe that i can use, right so i'll say ah but i'm your father and it's like okay well does that work no okay well i created your life you owe me endless obligation does that work well family is sacred just like Like, they're just trying to find a belief that you hold that they can utilize, that they can manipulate you with, if that makes sense. And so there isn't going to be any logical coherence to that.
[25:58] Their belief structure because it's like saying well why doesn't the lion run in a straight line that's not logically that doesn't make any sense if the lion wants to get from a to b, he'd just run in a straight line and it's like well no because the lion is running to chase the zebra so whichever way the zebra turns the lion will turn the destination is not a to b the destination is chewing up the zebra and so these constant changes in direction and these bewildering gas lighting and so on it's it's like asking a chameleon to stay the same color why does this octopus keep changing color where's the consistency it's like well, it's a a form of camouflage right so asking for consistency from people who are only interested in control and bullying well it's it's not a rational demand it is like asking the lion to run, in a straight line, or, you know, if the gator's full, it doesn't bite you. Well, make up a decision. Do you want to eat me or not? It's like, well, it depends if I'm hungry or not. So rational consistency would be a form of self-discipline, and it would be a form of having power over yourself, right? And he doesn't want power over himself, because power over oneself interferes with having power over others.
[27:21] Right because if i if i say no like you know obviously in in my wife my marriage right i mean we've never raised voices we never call names we never you know i mean we almost never have conflicts and and when we do it's uh it can be it can be passionate but it's never aggressive right, and so i i don't have power over my wife not that i'd want such a hideous thing but I don't have power over my wife because.
[27:48] I have power over myself because I have self-restraint it means I give up power over my wife, and people who want power over others cannot be held to rational standards because having rational standards is like saying to a lion well you gotta chase the zebra but you can't turn left it's like well what if the zebra goes left no no you can't turn left it's like okay then I'm gonna starve to death and I don't get to eat the zebra. So it is just a pursuit of dominance over others. They will claim to have universal standards, of course, because that's a way of controlling others. But to actually try and hold them to universal standards, well, that's not the point. The point of them deploying universal standards, like the moral character, you know, the virtue and so on, family is every loyalty, like the purpose for them to use these standards, statements is to control you the idea that they then would be restrained in their own behavior goes against the entire purpose of power which is to create rules for others to manipulate them but never have them applied to yourself because that would diminish your power over others if that makes sense.
[28:57] Absolutely one of the things that i'm currently struggling with is i am telling everyone uh that uh basically the you should talk to your dad again after last week is just completely off the table please don't ever bring it up and it's been hard for me to say this calmly after everything that happened and i've been so terrified i spent a ton of money on getting an alarm system everywhere and i'm still on eggshells about the whole thing kind of you know jumping was that a sound is that going to be him um and when i get the response well he does He does this because he loves you by members of my family. My aunt and uncle, as of two days ago, completely blocked. I have no interest in ever speaking to them because they had a real significant defense of him. But when I'm talking to my grandmother and she continues to say that after I read, I read my grandma, I sat her down and said, grandma, here's the deal. And I read her every word of every email. And I said, please don't bug me about talking to him again. And just yesterday, Grandma's 84, by the way, just yesterday, she was saying that he really loves me, and it's unfortunate that he goes about it this way.
[30:18] And I really don't want him. He doesn't know how to express himself. Yeah.
[30:24] Uh i just really don't want to lose it because i got i didn't scream the other day at my cousin's birthday but we were going around the table and two of my family members made this exact claim well he really loves you well he uh he doesn't uh really know how to uh show his emotions accurately he's unfortunately unintentionally shooting himself in the foot and i let's just say responded unfavorably used unclean language in front of family including my aunt and grandma so i'm not happy oh were they.
[30:57] Shocked at the like they they're willing to excuse this kind of aggression but were they shocked and appalled at the spicy language i.
[31:05] Didn't know how else to get their attention i go you know what i'm gonna have to drop 10 c bombs and f bombs in order to let them know this has gone from an annoyance and something they could joke about to something so serious that it's no longer negotiable.
[31:21] Sorry, hang on. You're C-bombing and F-bombing the elderly ladies?
[31:29] Reluctantly.
[31:30] No, no, no. Come on, man. That's not good. No, that's not the way.
[31:35] Oh, no. No, I'm sorry. I wasn't calling them that. I was just describing my dad's behavior, but I did say that. I've never called them that. Okay. But after just explaining for years how difficult my dad is and always getting the, but he loves you response, I just...
[31:56] You're still trying to explain something to them?
[32:00] Yeah. Yeah.
[32:02] So, but why? No, you have a thought behind it, right? This was relatively recent. Your cousin, was it?
[32:11] This was my cousin's birthday.
[32:13] How long ago was that?
[32:17] Saturday.
[32:18] So you're still doing family events with people who enable an excuse, your father's aggression, right?
[32:25] Yes.
[32:26] Why?
[32:30] Well, because...
[32:31] Look, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't. Because when I ask why, I never want it to come across as like, why the hell would you do such a crazy, I'm genuinely curious, like why, what's the plus?
[32:42] Sure, because it seems like their position on this issue is an anomaly with regard to their personality as a whole.
[32:54] An anomaly? I'm curious what you mean by that.
[32:57] So on regular issues, on every other thing that we talk about or exchange ideas on, they can be very, very rational and understanding, but it's just because of the parent-child relationship. It's just an issue that they can't concede on. Not they can't. They are actively choosing not to take my position and side with me. So it's difficult, but I do choose to be around them because I still think they're great assets to my life, and I really do like them as people.
[33:41] Okay, and I'm obviously not going to try and interfere with that, but are you saying that... Their defense of a rampant and violent abuser is just like a quirk or a blip, or as you put it, an anomaly, right?
[33:59] Yes. Just because of the lack of dedication. They don't make passionate statements on why I should. It's a very passive, well, he's your father and he loves you. And unfortunately, that is just something that I have chosen to tolerate because it's not that bad.
[34:18] I know. No, no, no, because you're F-bombing and C-bombing. Don't tell me you've decided to tolerate something that you're F-bombing and C-bombing about.
[34:30] Good catch.
[34:31] Nice try. Good catch. Nice try. See that invention of the standard in the moment, right? It completely contradicts. But that's your father talking, right?
[34:42] Well, yeah.
[34:44] Because that's the same lack of consistency, right? Yeah. You know, I'm using the most vile curse words in the face of elderly people, but, you know, I've chosen to accept it. I've chosen to accept them.
[34:55] Well, in the sense of if acceptance means choosing to have them in my life, even with, you know, communicating unproductively and vilely. Yeah, I've still chosen to tolerate them in my life, even though I have.
[35:12] No, no, no, you're not tolerating them. You're pursuing the relationships.
[35:16] Oh, yes, that is a more accurate explanation.
[35:21] Now, why do you think they don't show any sympathy towards you and side with your father at your expense? Because, I mean, let's be clear about what it is, right? Right. If somebody doesn't speak English, is it fair for me to get angry at them for not communicating to me clearly in English?
[35:48] No.
[35:49] Right. So, I mean, there was this old comedy routine about, you know, how we're in a foreign, like we're in Hungary or something, and somebody doesn't speak English. So we speak the same sentence, but slower and louder. Where is the coffee shop? Right? But they don't speak English. So if somebody was speaking to you in some foreign language, and they just went slower and louder, Hush, nerdy girl, the boss needy. I mean, it wouldn't be any clearer to you because you don't speak the language. So if they're saying, your father loves you, he doesn't express it well, then they're actually not even just accusing, but outright stating that you are intolerant of somebody's difficulty in expressing something. You're yelling at a foreigner for not speaking English.
[36:41] Right?
[36:42] So they are siding with your father because when there's a problem in the relationship, who's at fault, right? Somebody, usually either one or both people are at fault when there's a sort of big tear or problem in a relationship. So, you're not speaking with your father and you've taken this legal action against him, So there's a huge problem in the relationship, and who are they saying is at fault?
[37:13] So what they would say is, your dad is absolutely at fault, but still consider talking to him in the long run. It doesn't have to be this terrible, maybe just once or twice a month. They're always trying to talk me back into it.
[37:31] Okay, so you can pretend to be these women if you don't mind, and I'll do a little quick role play because I just sort of want to understand this mindset, right? Okay, so they make the speech about he's absolutely at fault, right? So then I would say, well, what has your communication with him been like when you tell him he's at fault?
[37:51] Well uh your father called last week and he was really horrible to me and uh he was just yelling and uh he didn't even apologize for your mother passing it was all about him but uh i i think you just need a month or two and then maybe you you uh you two can talk okay.
[38:10] Great accent so So, what have you said to my father about how bad his behavior has been? What demands have you made of him?
[38:20] I told him he was horrible. And I told him, look, the mistakes he made with his daughter, he's doing it again. But I don't know what's wrong with him. He just has such a weird way of showing his love.
[38:33] Can you tell me what you mean by the word love here? Because, I mean, I would think that love would have to do with being treasured and respected. And people treating you well, not sort of half beaten down your door and you've got to call the cops and so on. So can you tell me what is it that you mean by love? I know it's a big philosophical question, but you are using the word, so you must have some idea what it means.
[38:56] When I was born, parents would beat the hell out of their kids, but they still loved them. You still want what's best for your kids. That's what I'm talking about.
[39:09] So you want what's best for your kids, right?
[39:13] Sure.
[39:15] Okay. So, if someone pretends to be a doctor and sets up shop but doesn't know what he's doing and ends up really harming his, quote, patients, is he allowed to say, I want what's best for my patients if he's not actually studied to be a doctor?
[39:37] You're changing the subject. You always do that. It's an analogy.
[39:40] It's directly related. Just indulge me for a second.
[39:45] Okay, but you need a license to be a doctor. Parents love their kids.
[39:49] No, no, he pretends. He pretends to have a license. He prints it up. He fakes it, right?
[39:56] Okay, that's wrong.
[39:57] Okay. So if he says, well, I just want what's best for my patients, but he hasn't done any education on how to be a doctor, then we wouldn't believe him, right?
[40:11] Oh, you're changing the subject. No, no, just, just.
[40:14] That's the last thing. Yeah, okay. So, I guess with regards to these parents who beat their children, I mean, for 70, 80 years, there have been books on parenting. And, I mean, of course, there have been books on parenting going back hundreds of years. But sort of modern, you know, reason with your children, don't beat them to hell and gone and so on. These books have been around really since the end of the Second World War, right?
[40:44] Sure.
[40:46] Okay, so that's, you know, 80 years or so. So... Parents say they want what's best for their children, but they never get educated on parenting. Is it fair to say that they do want what's best for their children? Because you said, well, if the doctor doesn't get educated, then he can't claim to say what's best for his patients, because he's pretending to be a doctor and he's not getting educated. And, you know, we all upgrade our skills all the time. People learn how to use computers and cell phones and digital thermostats and watches and tons of stuff. New cars, and they learn how to twiddle with these endless dials like a space shuttle on the new cars and so on. So people upgrade their skills all the time.
[41:36] And so should parents who want what's best for their children not read a couple of books which are available for free at the library, right? And people have years and years and years as adults to figure out something about parenting. And then, you know, they get married and they discuss having children and so they have years to prepare. The mom is pregnant for nine months and so on. So they have a lot of time to prepare. Like, if I didn't know anything about how to feed a baby and I never asked a doctor or I never looked it up or I never got any education, and I gave a newborn baby a ham and cheese on rye and the baby didn't do very well, would I get to say, well, I just wanted what was best for my baby. I was like, well, why didn't you do any research about what was best for your baby? And I guess that's the question I have. Sorry, go ahead.
[42:31] There's no time to read books, and all books say different things, and you never know what to read, and it's too complicated. But he does love you. I know that.
[42:41] I'm sorry. Parenting books are too complicated, and there's no time to read? I don't follow what you mean.
[42:47] There's so many books, and they all say different things, and you don't know what to believe.
[42:53] Okay. Are there books that recommend screaming at and beating your children?
[43:03] I don't know. I haven't read many.
[43:05] Oh, you've read some. Okay. So of the some that you've read, how many of them advocated beating your children and screaming at them?
[43:13] Well, none of them, but we all fall short.
[43:17] Okay so so look this is good so you read parenting books that said it's probably better to try reasoning with your children to show them affection and to not scream at them and beat them right, yeah okay so did you ever tell my dad about this yeah.
[43:40] I told him he was driving you uh into the arms of your mother, away from him.
[43:46] Okay, so you told him that what he was doing was not the best thing for me.
[43:54] Yeah.
[43:55] So how dare you tell me, how dare you tell me that he wants what's best for me when you told him that what he was doing was bad for me and he kept doing it?
[44:11] Yeah.
[44:12] That's nasty. That's kind of malevolent. So you couldn't change him, although you've known him a hell of a lot longer than I have. You couldn't change him with good advice. And you claim that he wanted what was best for me when you repeatedly told him that what he was doing was damaging me, and he didn't change, and he hasn't changed, and he still hasn't changed, and he won't change. And then you have the nerve, the literal absolute audacity. To say he wants what's best for you when you clearly told him with expert advice in parenting books that what he was doing was harmful to me and he's been doing it now for close to 30 years. How dare you lie to me in this way? It is an absolute falsehood. You told him that what he was doing was bad for me and you sit across from me at this table, look me dead in the eye and say, he only wants what's best for you. My God, what's the matter? What's going on? This is so crazy. What is going on? Like, genuinely, what is going on?
[45:24] Yeah, that's probably the more calm, rational, productive way I should have approached things the other night.
[45:34] Well, I don't know. No, I think indulging in those kinds of swear words at a birthday party is probably not ideal.
[45:44] I definitely regret it.
[45:46] No, and I accept that, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything like that, but my question is... What are you getting from this social situation?
[46:04] Because 99% of the time it's very loving and productive, and they're my closest living genetic connections who I generally get along with. And that's why I refer to their position on this issue, while horrible, does seem like an anomaly that they're not very dedicated to. They just will passively say things like I was imitating before. Okay.
[46:31] Okay, but let me ask you this. Do you think that your father's behavior and the enabling of your relatives are two separate things?
[46:40] No.
[46:42] Okay, so your father has been a dark shadow in your life for close to 30 years, right?
[46:48] Yeah.
[46:49] So, if your father was in general only able to do what he did, or largely able to do what he did, because he counted on and got the support of your relatives and his relatives to do what he did, then his abuse is tied into their approval. And they're gaslighting and minimizing and trying to talk you back into being in contact with him, and so on right so it's sort of like saying well the guy who drove the getaway car didn't rob the bank so he's fine and it's like no because the bank was only robbed because there was a getaway driver right if the if the getaway driver said i'm not going to be your getaway driver and the bank robber had no getaway driver, the bank robber would not rob the bank, right?
[47:42] Yeah.
[47:43] So you say, well, he's, I mean, I mean, come on, man, he's just sitting in a car. You can do that. He's just driving away. You can do that. And it's like, but he's charged, right? Even though what he did if it wasn't related to a bank robbery would be legal assuming he wasn't double parked I guess but if the bank robbery only happens because, of the getaway driver then he's charged equally because he's an equal criminal because the bank robbery would not happen without him does that make sense?
[48:25] Yeah Yeah.
[48:27] So your father did what he did, with the certain knowledge that all these blue-haired biddies would hurt you back to him with all the social force at their disposal. That they would be the slave catchers. If you know the whole community is going to rally around to catch and return a slave who runs away way, rather than get them on the underground railroad to safety, you can treat your slaves much worse, right?
[49:02] I have not considered that aspect of enabling, no.
[49:07] Abuse is social. It is not individual. Now, we focus on the individuals, I understand that, because they're more vivid, right? But abuse is a social phenomenon. So, when I was abused as a child, we lived not in some remote cave or location in the middle of nowhere. I lived right in the middle of a city in a crowded apartment building and series of crowded apartment buildings. We never had a house, at least after I was a baby. A series of crowded apartment buildings with paper-thin walls, right? I went to school, I went to friends' houses, I went to relatives' houses, I went to live with other people from time to time when my mother was disabled. And when my mother was institutionalized, nobody cared, nobody knew, nobody inquired. No doctor, no... I mean, the people who took my mother into the institution, institution I'm sure they knew she had children they did not because I went to visit right and, nobody inquired as to how I was doing although they would have taken a history of that so everything that happened to me as a child it's very easy to focus on my mother but my mother operated in an entire social environment.
[50:32] And I was not isolated I was not locked in a basement on the moon I moved through society I moved through other people's houses, I was very social, and of course the violence and abuse was audible to probably 50 to 75 people in the apartment building.
[50:50] And so, if I just focus on my mother, I'm focusing on the bank robber. If I don't look at all the getaway drivers, I'm missing the truth about society. And you said, sort of, how do I prevent this? Or one of your fundamental questions is, how do I prevent this from affecting my life going forward as much? Do I have that right? Is that something that's of concern to you?
[51:15] Absolutely, yeah. Because I just want to completely separate from him. He thinks I want to ruin his life. Not even close. I just want separation and I want to move on with a mentally healthy mindset for the rest of my life. But this thing is just bugging the heck out of me.
[51:31] Right. Right. Now, we generally feel upset until we're safe, right?
[51:40] We feel upset until we're safe. Yes.
[51:44] So many years ago, I was swimming in the ocean in a warm place. And there were a bunch of guys on a sandbar further out to the ocean, and a large dark shadow swam under myself and my family. And these guys were yelling, shark, shark, shark. So my heart was pounding. I see the fin, and I'm looking to see whether the tail is going up and down or side to side, because up and down is dolphin, and side to side is shark, right? And then the fin goes about 100 feet to the right and then stops. And I'm like, don't turn around, don't turn around. And, you know, I'm basically trying to, you know, not panic, but, you know, let's get out of the water. And anyway, the guys on the sandbar ended up laughing and laughing. It's like, oh, bro, it's just a dolphin, right?
[52:36] So I went from fear, well, to a mixture of fear and anger, like that's not particularly funny, right? Hey, you're going to die. Just kidding. Psych, right? But so I no longer was concerned because dolphins are not dangerous to humans. I mean, I guess they will sexually assault their trainers from time to time, but this wasn't that situation, right? So, once I realized that it was a dolphin and not a shark, then I was relaxed. I relaxed and I kept splashing. In fact, I looked for the dolphin again, because it's cool to see a dolphin, right? I mean, that's kind of neat, right? So, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
[53:28] I And then my fight or flight dissipated, and I ended up relaxing and enjoying my day at the beach. So we're upset until we're safe. Now, if it had been a shark, and my family and I, as would be most likely the case, would get to the shore, I would not continue to feel as frightened on the shore, right?
[53:52] Yeah.
[53:55] So we're upset until we're safe. So if you're still upset, it means you're not yet safe. And if you think that you have solved the problem of embedded family abuse, because it is embedded. Your father did what he did in part because he had the getaway driver of the rest of the family who were going to herd you back and convince you, give him another chance, just be around him. He needs you just once or twice a month. What can it hurt?
[54:28] You know, he's just awkward. He doesn't know how to express himself, but he loves you. He wants the best. Like this constant drip, drip, drip. Erode your will. throw you back in the water covered with blood.
[54:41] When there are fins around and tails going side to side not up and down, this constant drip drip drip of, put yourself back in danger put yourself back in danger he's just awkward you're intolerant you're mean you don't understand him you don't understand what it's like to be a father he had a bad childhood You need to have some sympathy. He expresses himself badly, and he's doing the wrong thing, but he's doing the best he can. How dare you? How dare you get angry at a cripple for not climbing a mountain? How intolerant are you? He's doing the best he can. He had it tough.
[55:26] Right, that constant drip, drip, drip. Go back, go back, go back. And he's relying on that. And he treated you badly, in part, to a large degree, I would argue, because he knew about the biddies who would catch your escape and send you back.
[55:45] The sharks don't need to chase you if, when you get to the shore, the lifeguards throw you back at them.
[55:58] Sure.
[55:59] So the reason why I think it's still upsetting to you is because, and the reason why you were dropping these F-bombs and C-bombs, is because I think you're waking up to the true danger and the true predation. With very rare exceptions, abusers never act in isolation. They always act with the support of those around them. and usually that support comes from women. But they're sweet and they're old and they're nice and they bake pound cakes and they have little jars of sweets and they appear harmless and they're sweet and they're sympathetic, and they're thoughtful and they remember your birthdays which is all called camouflage. Did any of these women ever intervene when you were being so harmed as a child? Did they ever give you sympathy? Did they ever help you understand what you were facing? Did they ever try to get any kind of protective services involved? Did they threaten to ostracize your father if he didn't go to anger management classes? Did they stand up for you at all?
[57:18] Well uh there were certainly times where uh they had you know defended me to my face like oh yeah i totally get that you're right about that but then it was all washed away with the but you know he does love you it's like all right well now everything else is just meaningless if, that's going to be your closing line so.
[57:36] They did not do anything with regards to your father, that would have caused him to change or given him a chance to change. What you're doing is absolutely unacceptable. You're incredibly harming these children and you need to go to anger management. Did they stage an intervention?
[58:00] Didn't stage an intervention. My grandmother claims to have had this conversation with my dad where she told him to change and on two occasions when I was much younger, or I want to say like 10 and 12, I did call her and she picked me up from his house when he was in a rageaholic fit.
[58:17] Okay, so she knew directly how terrified you were and how dangerous he was.
[58:21] Yeah. Okay.
[58:23] So what did she do?
[58:27] Always offered for me to stay at her place if I wasn't comfortable there.
[58:33] Okay. And then your dad would come and pick you up? Well you'd go back oh.
[58:42] Yeah i would.
[58:42] Always go back so she knew she had direct experience of how volatile terrifying and dangerous your father was yeah and she did nothing in particular then, and she's counseling you to stay in this relationship now Now.
[59:02] More or less that, uh, no, no, no.
[59:07] More or less. That's an absolute, unless I completely misunderstood what you're saying. Keep calling him once or twice a month. Stay in the relationship, right?
[59:16] Yeah. Yeah. That, uh, that, that was the, uh, most recent, uh, exchange we had on this issue.
[59:23] Okay. Okay. Okay, so that's siding with the abuser and saying that the victim has to change.
[59:42] How's your dating life?
[59:45] Dating life is better than ever before because I found the carnivore diet. So I used to be 290 pounds. So for the first time in my life, I'm actually getting positive attention from women. So that has actually been a silver lining in this mess.
[1:00:05] Oh, tell me a little bit about that change.
[1:00:08] So there was this woman I was head over heels in love with. And I'm like, I think she's into me. And one day I just said, we've gone on dates. I would really want us to be exclusive. And she gets a smile on her face and says something to the extent of literally someone as good looking as me is not going to date someone as bad as you. And then I just went to YouTube and I just watched probably 70 videos on foods to eat for fat loss. And I lost the weight. her and I dated for some time and then unfortunately on Valentine's Day I walked into her place and she was actually cheating on me but without that advice I never would have lost the weight and really gotten any attention from other women at all so yeah that is where I'm at as far as dating goes okay.
[1:01:04] So congratulations on the weight loss good for you now, Tell me a little bit about your dating life, or if there was a dating life. Normally, it starts to cook in around mid-teens, right? I'm not saying it's particularly serious, but that's where it starts to kick in. So, you've had, what, 13 years or so where dating has been possible. And when did you first start dating in your life?
[1:01:31] I want to say high school. There were two women I dated. One woman I dated in college, but there were really just three from age like teens to 26 before I lost the weight.
[1:01:49] Okay. And how were these relationships as a whole?
[1:01:53] Um i was so i found it so difficult to believe that anyone could like me or be attracted to me that it was really hard for me to be invested in it i was constantly like needing confirmations that they really were into me and i think i just exhausted them to the point of like i drove them away that is my immediate recollection um be honest i've not put much thought into that recently and sorry.
[1:02:26] Were they sexual relationships how.
[1:02:28] Long did they last uh first one high school uh yes it was and i want to say six months uh second one yes probably two months and then the third one i'd say six months this was i would have been 18 it was right when i I went to college.
[1:02:48] Was it long distance?
[1:02:50] It was in person.
[1:02:51] Oh, so it was in college.
[1:02:53] I went to school with them, yeah. Okay.
[1:02:56] And why did the college one end?
[1:02:59] I was heavily addicted to Adderall cocaine and Vyvanse, and I was just very unreliable. And the relationship just ended when I stopped responding to her. Once I got clean, I'd been clean for seven years, I texted her and apologized for everything. thing um as extensively as i could um.
[1:03:22] And sorry when did you first start getting into the adderall and cocaine and what was the other one adderall.
[1:03:28] Vivancy and cocaine this would have been from age 17 to 21.
[1:03:31] Okay got it and then from 21 to 26 you didn't date.
[1:03:41] I'm really trying to think i literally don't.
[1:03:45] Know i mean if you had a date or two but basically you didn't right oh.
[1:03:48] No no yeah so certainly no uh significant relationships.
[1:03:51] And then you got involved with the hottie who convinced you to lose weight or gave you the stimulus to him to lose weight and then you dated with her for a while and then she cheated on you on valentine's day yeah.
[1:04:05] That one lasted uh a year.
[1:04:07] Ah okay and it was exclusive for a year i mean that you know On my end.
[1:04:13] Yes, it was exclusive for a year. And when I found out, I never even asked her the details because whatever she said, I wouldn't have believed. But right when I saw this, you know, I knew it was just her home alone. And I was showing up like two hours early to our Valentine's Day. I was going to surprise her. And I just see this military handsome guy walking out of the house. And I go, oh.
[1:04:39] My God, she cheated on you. with your dad.
[1:04:45] And, uh, I walk in and it was common for me just to walk in. I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary and she's in the hallway and she just turns into a ghost, looks at me and then looks at the clock on her ball.
[1:05:00] And I just hugged her and I said, um, Hey, so good to see you. Happy Valentine's day. And I said, by the way, were you sleeping with that guy by any chance? And I said, it's totally okay if you were. I just want to know. Now, again, it's not that it's okay. It's I'm about to lose my mind and I'm trying to build her a golden bridge to retreat across because I had suspected it. So I'm just like.
[1:05:27] I just- Sorry, you had suspected that she was cheating?
[1:05:29] Yeah. I mean, she was just so good looking that at the back of my mind, I'm like, how is this a real thing that I'm in love with.
[1:05:38] No, but were you, sorry, were you dating with the intention to get married or how old was she?
[1:05:42] And we had talked, she was three years older than me. She had talked about how she really wanted to get married and have kids and we had had this conversation multiple times in a capacity that I thought was serious.
[1:05:56] And you were, sorry, you were 25, 26?
[1:05:59] I would have been 27.
[1:06:02] So you were already out of contact with your father, is that right? Yeah, Okay. And did she meet any of your family?
[1:06:10] No, she had met my friends. My family really consists of mom, grandma, aunt, everyone else is in other states.
[1:06:22] Sorry, so you were talking about marrying this woman, but she didn't meet your family. Or talk to them on the phone or Skype or anything, right?
[1:06:30] Correct.
[1:06:30] Why not?
[1:06:33] Because she was Asian and my family's Jewish. And before I introduce anyone who isn't Jewish, I got to be positive that it's going to be the one or else it's not worth the hassle.
[1:06:49] Okay, got it.
[1:06:50] But granted, that has actually faded recently. It used to be like around my bar mitzvah time, it was like, absolutely only marry a Jewish girl. And then I actually haven't heard that in some time. I think they've just lost that ambition.
[1:07:07] Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. So she admitted to sleeping with the guy and then you broke up, right?
[1:07:17] Correct.
[1:07:18] Okay. Okay. And have you dated much since then?
[1:07:24] Yes. I basically had more confidence than ever before. And in the last year or so, I've dated probably 50 times more than I dated from age 14 to 27. Primary places that I meet women will either be at work, at bars, or at events.
[1:07:50] Okay and what's the longest of those relationships been.
[1:07:55] Um I would say uh probably uh four months or so um, I'm really at the point where I'm looking for a long-term girlfriend. So when I'm on these dates, I will usually... It's not really about getting them interested in me so I could sleep with them immediately. It's like, you know, if we're not clicking that soon, I'm not going to invest much time or money. Because frankly, I went broke with the woman who was cheating on me. And I'm a little once bitten, twice shy.
[1:08:33] Wait, how much did you spend on her?
[1:08:35] Oh, Stef.
[1:08:37] No, come on.
[1:08:39] I'm going to have to put it in the chat. I can't. Let's just say.
[1:08:44] Could you buy a car?
[1:08:46] Oh, I could buy a couple.
[1:08:48] Could you buy a couple of cars? Okay. All right. Holy crap.
[1:08:53] I mean, just imagine never getting attention from women. And then one who is willing to date you sleep with you go anywhere and hold hands with you and she's dropped this woman was margot robbie level good looking right so i'm i'm basically just like all right whatever it's gonna cost me uh that's that's what i'm gonna do wow.
[1:09:16] She's an expert uh um bull money miner right.
[1:09:21] Okay got.
[1:09:23] It wow wow wow wow okay yeah i can understand some caution with regards to that all right um and why do you think the relationships aren't working out in terms of like you want to get married and all that.
[1:09:38] Why aren't the relations working out um i am uh really not sure i've put a lot of thought into it with friends as far as what are things to look for uh things that i could bring up to sort of of be a weeding mechanism for who I should really invest a lot of time into. I would say I think I'm really scared in general, even still. So I'm much less scared than I used to be to approach women. But just the fact that I did one the other, I approached a woman the other day at a restaurant, I never would have done that. And we exchanged information and I am definitely going to ask her out.
[1:10:23] That was the most blinding maze-like non-answer I've heard in a while. Excellent. Well done. All right. Let's try that again. Why are these relationships not working out? Because if you're dating 50 times longer, you want to get married, and the longest you've managed is four months, then something's not working, right?
[1:10:42] Yeah. And, you know, I just haven't found someone that I'm really passionate about investing a lot of time into.
[1:10:54] What standards are you using to approach these women?
[1:10:58] Standards I'm using are ability to have long-term productive conversations that really hold my interest along with good looks that hold my attention. Those are really the two main things.
[1:11:17] Good conversation, good looks, right? Right. So you know that was your mother's standard, right?
[1:11:25] Well she said my dad was funny she didn't say good conversation oh.
[1:11:29] Come on i mean.
[1:11:30] Somebody who's.
[1:11:32] Funny is doing so in a conversational manner right.
[1:11:34] Well uh i i mean unless he's a mom to be uh to weasel my way out of this but i do think there's a difference between someone who can make funny one-liners or comments versus someone who says um you know i'm really trying to differentiate who my good friends are versus who my bad friends are. That's the difference, I think, between someone who can be funny and someone who has good, solid, productive conversations. So that's what I'm looking for.
[1:12:03] But what's missing from both your mother and your equation is virtue. Somebody who's a good conversationalist, well, there are people who are good conversationalists who aren't good people. There are obviously people who are good-looking who aren't good people. So, I'm sure it comes as no deep and great shock to you, my friend, that I would recommend the virtue thing.
[1:12:33] That absolutely needs to be on the list. Yes, good call.
[1:12:36] On the list. Yeah, you know, somewhere. Maybe write it on the edge of the paper, a watermark. Nothing too obvious, because she could have a great rack. So, you know, I don't want to overemphasize the virtue thing. It's beyond margins. Yes, that's right. Right? So, how would you, you know, first of all, why do you think you're not filtering for virtue? Looking for, you know, integrity and clarity and skepticism and moral courage or, you know, charity, but whatever, you know, would be some good markers of a virtuous woman. Why do you think that's not on your list? Especially since you've read, you know, a bunch of my stuff and all that and you know this can't be too much of a shock that i'm focusing on this.
[1:13:21] Yeah um i think i'm just still so high on any uh any attention i could get uh in general that um that i guess it just didn't uh come to mind when you had originally asked uh asked the question but oh so you're in.
[1:13:41] Your fat liberated hound dog face.
[1:13:43] I can't i i guess that uh is a good way to describe it but um yeah i'm i'm really not uh sure why that didn't come to mind okay.
[1:13:59] So a virtuous woman, looks at you, and what would draw her to you?
[1:14:12] What would draw her to me? I would say my dedication to my profession, which I've spent probably 14 years trying to perfect and get better at, a general level of confidence when I'm in that arena, You know, ability to hold a steady job and someone who's capable of capable of achieving something significant when I put my mind to it, such as the significant weight loss or getting off of drugs. Those are the things that I would think of. I'm trying to channel the Kevin Samuels answer of women want a guy who's confident, intelligent and assertive. So those are some of the things that come to mind. Those are the ways I try to attract.
[1:15:02] Right, okay. Nothing in there is particularly virtuous. And I'm not saying that being good at your job is bad or conscientiousness is not a good thing or anything like that. But everything that you talked about could be in pursuit of bad things too, right? Some politicians do work very hard, even though they're pretty corrupt. Some lawyers are pretty bad, and yet they work very hard. We all know the totalitarian regimes, some of the administrators work very hard and produce massive amounts of evil and death. Again, I'm not saying you're in that category, but it's not a specifically moral category?
[1:15:41] Yes and that uh is also something that uh that i should focus on both for when i'm trying to look for and uh and for myself um, Yeah, thank you for reiterating the importance of that.
[1:16:00] Well, and it's tough to have, and I learned this through bitter experience, so I'm not saying this is some sort of objective rule, but I think it's a general trend.
[1:16:09] You can't really have a more moral relationship than your least moral relationship.
[1:16:16] You know, the chain is only as strong as its weakest link and so on, right? Like, I mean, if you have a relay team and you've got one guy who's 400 pounds, you're never going to win a race, right? Because even if everyone else is super lean and super fast, that one guy, right, is going to bring it all down. And so when a woman looks at you, a moral woman, right, she looks at you and she's going to say, okay, so I haven't married, get married, have kids and so on. So she's going to want to be in touch with your family because she's marrying into a family, right? Men date individuals, women assess families, right? Because you're going to be at work and she's going to be raising kids with a bunch of family members around. I mean, if the family members are around, in this case, it wouldn't be a father, but it would be others, right?
[1:17:03] And so she says that my relationship is going to be with a whole social circle. And if a woman meets your friends, that's great. But friends are what you have as placeholders before you have kids. And, you know, no, seriously, I'm going to be honest with you about this, right? It's just a, you know, a couple of decades plus. And I still have friends and I still see my friends from time to time. But compared to how much time I spend with my family, I mean, it's virtually nothing. I mean, especially if you're homeschooled and all of that, right? Because you just, now, if they live next door and you have kids all together, and then that can be great and wonderful and all of that, but...
[1:17:44] Uh, friends are what you use to meet your wife as a whole. And then like the stages of a rocket, they generally kind of fall away, uh, in life. And then it becomes about your family and, and so on. Right. And again, I mean, I get, I have long-term friendships and I really enjoy my friends and they really enjoy my company, but you know, honestly, we can go quite some time without talking because we're all busy with family and life and business and all that kind of stuff. So, for a woman to meet your friends is helpful, but for a woman to meet your family is essential. And any woman who's serious about marriage will want to meet, like, you know, the old thing, why haven't you brought me home to meet your mother? You know, well, of course, in your case, she's deceased, for which I have great sympathy, but to meet your family, right? Because in some ways, right, I mean, women have evolved to spend more time with your in-laws in some ways than you. Because, you know, you'll be off at work 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, maybe, and like with commute and all of that. And yet, you know, often the grandmother and the great aunt and so on, they're all living in the neighborhood and they're around a lot. And so she has to assess your family because she's going to be spending a lot of time with them because they're going to help her raise the kids. right?
[1:19:07] So, if a moral woman meets the biddies, and they say, I won't even try to do that accent, but if they meet the women, and the women are like, oh, you know, his father can be a bit of a handful but you know loves him and and you know we're really encouraging them to spend time together and so on right and then she says ah so this is who i get to spend quite a lot of my life with again i know that they're older but you know it's part of the family structure as a whole they'll still be others right what is her perspective going to be on taking on those relationships well.
[1:19:54] As of now she would just absolutely have to uh side with me at least in uh in those conversations i would just have very little day i have dated women who uh have said that um well you should still talk to your dad well you only have one parents and all this stuff and that i just lost interest uh immediately on on those ones um so what would her i would want her position to be unequivocal in support of defooling in this case.
[1:20:28] Well, I mean, or at least honest conversations, right? Like honest, like not F-bombs and C-bombs, you know, and volatility and so on. But, you know, sort of honest conversations where you're more vulnerable than aggressive, right? Because that's acting a bit like your dad, isn't it?
[1:20:44] It is. And it happened once in 28 years. And I hope I learned to make you feel bad about.
[1:20:53] Any of that. I'm really not. I'm just saying that that's probably a place that is not super productive. So it's just really an honest conversation. Like, OK, help me understand how this all happened. Because the protection of children is not just the job of the parents, it's the job of the whole family, right? Yeah. So how did this slip through the fingers? How did this guy end up, you know, I think obviously given what your half-sister did 18 years ago and others, like, how did he end up being this harsh and brutal towards kids? And with all of that, she's going to have some legitimate questions, right? It's like, okay, so if I'm going to raise my kids around these people, I need to know what they think about children and how good they are and dedicated they are to protecting children. What is their view of the moral status of children? Are children to be protected no matter what? And if they're not to be protected no matter what, if you appease the abusers, then that usually comes from a bad conscience. Right, so the women that we were role-playing about, you said they're in their 80s, is that right?
[1:22:00] Grandma's 84, and I want to say 60. Right.
[1:22:06] I remember when 60 seemed pretty old. Anyway, but they've spent a lifetime, I suppose, and made their decisions to not strongly and strictly intervene for the protection of children.
[1:22:22] Right.
[1:22:23] They didn't they didn't say document your father's rages and and maybe record them if it's legal and, you know, go to the court and say, listen, we've got to get this kid out of there and like whatever it takes to actually protect the kids. Right.
[1:22:37] Yeah, they really didn't take it seriously. That's why when they read the 911 call transcript, they were just shocked. And they, wow, I never would have thought this would happen to watch my sister.
[1:22:51] I don't know what they actually thought. That's what people say. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:22:55] It yeah towards my sister uh the second i told my sister she goes this is exactly what i was waiting for this day i'm so sorry this happened so the people who knew him best were not surprised the people who knew him very little who said i should keep talking to him were in a state of shock they couldn't believe the email yeah yeah.
[1:23:18] Uh i had no idea it's one of the most common defenses and don't tell me they didn't know him well their family.
[1:23:26] Family.
[1:23:26] I don't really believe that stuff. It's just something, oh my, I had no idea, right? Yeah. It's like, what is it, Carmela Soprano, you know? Yeah, he's in the waste management business, officer. I had no idea. I had no idea whatsoever. Now you'll have to talk to my lawyer. So if people have made these kinds of decisions, they're not really going to be able to turn around and then be in a state of saying, yes, I chickened out of protecting children my whole life, and I side with abusers. I mean, nobody's going to say that in their 80s, let alone 60 or whatever, right? So I think that's the reason why, is that they can't look themselves in the mirror and say, did I protect the children in my environment? I don't think people can do that. At least, I've never seen it. And I know those two things aren't the same thing, but I mean, I have talked to a lot of people and I've certainly never heard of somebody in their 80s saying, you know, bursting into tears and saying, I chickened out and I let you be tormented and abused and I'm just so ashamed. I mean, they just come up with excuses and we didn't know and we did try our best and he still loves you. Like, there's just a bunch of excuses to cover up that they didn't actually work hard to protect the children.
[1:24:52] Yeah that is something i could definitely uh see what uh this there would be a difficult statement uh to leave my uh grandmother's house however she has uh conceded great things previously up to and including saying she was not a very good mother and if she could go back she would uh change a lot um so.
[1:25:13] Okay so but the question then has become of course this was sorry this was your mother who said that no.
[1:25:19] This was uh my grandma she had.
[1:25:21] Your grandmother okay yeah so then the question is not like you you find out if people break out of this solipsism, when they start thinking about themselves and instead of saying well i should have done this i should have done that i have regret for this i have regret for that they say tell me how all of this affected you otherwise they're just still talking about themselves you know it's like that that old joke about the bad date, you know, hey, but enough about me. Tell me what you think of me.
[1:25:51] Right?
[1:25:51] I mean, when does it become about you? When does it become about you and the effects on you? And not only did they fail to protect you, and maybe this did happen for whatever reason, right? Not only did they fail to protect you in any meaningful way from your father, as far as I understand it, But they also... So you get fat. Like pushing 300 pounds is danger zone and a half, right?
[1:26:25] Oh, yeah.
[1:26:27] So what did they say about that? Did they stage an intervention? Did they slap cheesecake out of your hand? I don't know what was going on, but... When did you gain the weight? What age?
[1:26:41] Do you know what? I had always been overweight since I was young. I lost a ton of weight. I don't know how much when I started getting addicted to cocaine, Adderall, and Vyvanse.
[1:26:53] I'm sorry to laugh. You're on the hot girl diet, right?
[1:26:57] But I just developed a tolerance, and then I gained all the weight right back while I still had the addiction. So there's some pictures of me from high school that I'm not totally ashamed of. But other than that, yeah.
[1:27:13] The girls take this stuff so they're like, not only can I get into the club, I can stay up for three days straight.
[1:27:20] Yes.
[1:27:21] So skinny. Okay, so you were overweight as a child, which means that you were being badly fed and you weren't getting exercise, right?
[1:27:29] Yeah, I mean, I was eating like such trash. Even when I got older and I worked in online grocery pickup where you are constantly moving for eight hours a day, I still didn't lose the weight then just because I was eating so much bread, pasta and tons of terrible food. So like you have PE 30 minutes every other day and half of PE you're doing something sitting or, you know, out of motion. So it was just a microscopic amount of exercise.
[1:28:02] But also you were miserable and you were just trying to get your dopamine any way you could, right?
[1:28:07] Looking back, that certainly seems like it.
[1:28:09] I mean, you're probably eating your way out of suicidality.
[1:28:13] Yeah.
[1:28:16] You know, when I look at people, you know, who died young, it's like, yeah, but probably would have died younger if they hadn't get their dopamine, because who wants to live a life of sheer misery, right? So, okay. All right. So, yeah, so with regards to, you know, seeing your family and not seeing your family, to me, it is just about the honest conversations. And if you don't want to have the honest conversations, I mean, do what you want. I'm not in control of anyone. If you don't want to have those honest conversations, oh, they're too old or they're never going to get it or whatever, then I think just being honest about that and saying, okay, this is a severely limited relationship and accepting that, right? I mean, I don't talk about my finances with my dentist, right? Yeah. So it's a relationship that's largely limited to small talk and teeth cleaning, right? So that's a limited relationship, and I'm not pretending it's anything but that. And so...
[1:29:11] If relationships are limited i think just being really brutal and frank you know with yourself right and and not necessarily with the people but saying you know yeah this is my family i you know i i talk about you know five percent of what i think and uh it's very circumscribed and uh so you know they're not going to get that involved in the raising of the kids and having those uh we just have to be i mean whatever we do we just have to start with absolute honesty Honesty. And I mean, as best we can, absolute honesty is a bit of a ghost chase, right? But I do think that if you can have these conversations, because it isn't, isn't it, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, of course, but isn't it kind of offensive for people to say that the guy who did the most harm to you just loves you?
[1:29:57] Oh my gosh, is that offensive. And that's why, that's why I blew up.
[1:30:03] Right, right. right and again.
[1:30:05] It was not the first time i heard it it was probably the 200th time i've heard it and i go well obviously after what happened uh one week ago um but they're not gonna still say that and then to hear the words leave their mouth uh it was just shocking.
[1:30:23] Right right and that's why i got a sense of a drowning guy like who's just like can anyone see what an ogre i'm dealing with and i'm like i completely see it and i'm i'm incredibly sorry uh for for all of this i mean to have this kind of stuff to deal with i mean you can get good stuff out of it like really firm boundaries and great ethics and and strength and all of that but you know it's not the way we want to learn these things we'd like to learn them theoretically rather than practically, so um you know huge sympathies for that so then the question is in terms of security if you're You're still chasing competence in conversation and looks. And I have no objection to looks and all of that. That's fine. But I do think that you're going to need to really work to filter on integrity, on virtue, on honesty, on curiosity.
[1:31:16] And that's tough, but it will save you a lot of time. Because a virtuous woman would never take a couple of cars out of your wallet and cheat on you. So you say, well, I got burned. It's like, you got burned, but you got burned by the ancient biblical sin of lust. It's not super complicated, right? I mean, there are all of these commandments about all of this, right? We can go full OT on your libido and say, well, you know, this was kind of demonic in a way, I mean, to use that as an analogy, right? Right. So if you choose someone for their looks, then you feel like you get exploited, but you're exploiting them.
[1:31:57] Oh, yeah, definitely.
[1:31:59] For sexual access, for pride, for, you know, walking around with them in public and people saying, damn, he must be rich or something like that. Right. Although you were in the process of unriching, I suppose, of unaliving your finances. But, so, yeah, I mean, so mutual exploitation isn't the way to go. And certainly people who put family above virtue are always enabling the corruption of the family.
[1:32:34] People who put family above virtue are always enabling the family.
[1:32:40] No, they're always enabling the corruption of the family.
[1:32:43] The corruption of the family, thank you. Right.
[1:32:45] I mean, you can commit all the crimes you want if all the witnesses get unalived, right? So, the people who put family above virtue are saying that you can be immoral to family members, and it doesn't really matter, because family trumps everything.
[1:33:01] Thank you.
[1:33:02] And so that you know looking for people who are like yeah integrity is is really the only path to lasting love and virtue and honesty are the only path to lasting love and somebody who loves you enough to hate those who've hurt you is is a rare find but that is the kind of love i think that you need for a lifelong pair bonding and it produces a great relationship that your children and a happy to see, right? Somebody who loves you enough, to dislike those who've done you the most harm, particularly if they're unapologetic and continue to escalate. You can't love someone and also love those who do that person harm.
[1:33:44] You're going to dislike and maybe even hate the people who harm others. You know, if you love your child and then some bully beats up your child, you don't encourage your kid to become best friends with the bully and invite their family over for meals, right? Right? I mean, they just did your kid harm. And you can't like the people who do harm to those you love. And finding somebody whose loyalty is to virtue rather than to conformity, to NPC talk. Because, I mean, if you're obviously a very intelligent, creative, and brilliant guy, and you just, you can't live your life with an NPC.
[1:34:27] It would absolutely drive you mad.
[1:34:34] So on my notes here focus on virtuous woman uh the metric of she has to love you enough to hate those who do you harm what are uh some other uh bullet points i could uh or things to look for uh green flags if uh if you will.
[1:34:52] Oh yeah so as far as how i.
[1:34:53] Could find a virtuous.
[1:34:54] Yeah the big green flag these days is curiosity right so if you say something that may be surprising or upsetting to some people or whatever right uh do they care about you enough to be curious about, what you're thinking and why.
[1:35:11] Right or do you just get you know the sort of pre-programmed attack dogs of modern propaganda you know i don't know a silly example would be i don't know like i'm not entirely sure that the world is going to experience a biblical flood because we're putting some plant food in the air. And if she's like, oh my God, you're in league with the capitalists who are destroying the planet, you know, whatever it is. So people who get offended when you are honest about your thoughts and feelings, you can't have a relationship with people who get offended by who you are and what you think. Now, you could be wrong, right? But we all have to have the capacity to to be wrong without being attacked, right? Because then we just live in a state of fear and conformity, and, right, I mean, I will go to my grave being completely confident that people can be egregiously wrong and should not be attacked, shamed, and abused for that, right? So, yeah, so maybe you have, I mean, I guess in this case, it would be, yeah, my father was such a brute that I don't have anything to do with him. Now, the NPC conversation is kind of what we role-played with your biddies, right? Right. Which is, you know, well, that's not allowable and that's not right. And while I can understand your caution, dismiss caution, you've got to go back. Right. You've got to go back. And.
[1:36:32] So, if you say, yeah, I don't have much to do with my father because, you know, he's actually of a restraining order and so on, somebody is like, gosh, what happened? You know, tell me more, as opposed to, wow, that's pretty extreme, you know, why would you do that? You know, like, sort of like a negative judgment immediately.
[1:36:50] Immediately.
[1:36:51] So curiosity is absolutely the key. Because if you have fenced off areas of your relationship where you just can't go and you can't talk about it and you're not going to get sympathy, they spread, right? You find over the course of your relationship that what you can talk about gets less and less and less, right? Because let's say she's NPC about your father. Well, he's your father. You've got to go back, got to work it out. You'll have a regret. You don't forgive him. You blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? All of the standard tropes that are handed by, family-corrupting people, then what happens is you don't talk about that, but then you think about it from time to time, and then you continually remember you can't talk about that, and then you get resentful that you can't talk about that, right? And then you can't talk about being resentful that you can't talk about that. It spreads, you know? It's like a spilled paint, you know? It just kind of spreads out, right? And then what you can talk about gets less, and then you notice there are other things you can't talk about, because the NPC algorithm isn't just in one tiny corner of the personality.
[1:37:48] Right?
[1:37:49] And so what happens is you end up with less and less to talk about, then you're up staring at each other across a breakfast table a million miles apart, and then you break up. So curiosity is endless and wonderful, and marriage, of course, is a lifelong half-century conversation, if you're lucky, and you just can't have stuff that's off-topic. You just can't have stuff that you can't talk about. You've just got to be curious, because you care about the person. You can't care about the person and then really dislike one thing or two things or five things that they say. Even if they're wrong, right? You say, tell me more. I'm curious. What is that? Why do you think that? Or what's the thought behind that? And just getting to know someone as opposed to judging them, right? Judging is a power play. I'm judging you to be deficient. I'm in charge. You're bad. I'm good, son. You know, this kind of stuff, right? So when people level up and put you down by putting themselves in a position of judging you, then they aren't interested in getting to know you. They're only interested in feeling superior to you, and that is not a mechanic that can survive for very long unless you're a total masochist, in which case it's pretty toxic. Which I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying that was the only way that that could work.
[1:38:57] Right? Yeah. Very, very good advice. I really like that line about find someone who loves you enough to hate those who do you harm. That those two metrics alone, I think, will drastically increase the success of relationships if I use those as weeding mechanisms. Looking back, love casts a shadow.
[1:39:24] Right? Everybody wants to be nice, particularly women, but love does cast a shadow, which is you can't love something. I mean, you can't love virtue without hating evil, and you can't love the truth without hating compulsive liars, and you can't love someone without also hating people who do them harm.
[1:39:39] I mean, everybody wants to focus on the statue, nobody wants to focus on the shadow, but the statue does cast a shadow, and everything contains its opposite. Like, you want your immune system to love your health, and how does it love your health? By hating bacteria and viruses and wiping them out. You know, that's how we survive, right? Right? So, yeah, everybody wants the love and nobody wants to see, okay, what's the shadow of love, which is hating the opposite. If you love virtue, you're going to end up hating evil. Now, hating evil doesn't mean that you do anything violent or destructive or anything like that. It's just like.
[1:40:17] Stay away and and i'll i'll work to promote virtue and hopefully diminish the influence of of evildoers and that's a pretty good mission and and all of that and and it also because men are here well but to provide and protect right and so the protection is being able to scan for danger and work to alleviate it or ameliorate it or avoid it or whatever it is right and so if you love your family you have to you know i i was not a fan of the shark that could be swimming under my family right and and you know if there'd been a way to snap my fingers and have the shark swim out to sea or failing that have a heart attack i would snap those fingers right because i don't exactly hate the shark but i sure love my family and anything that threatens them is is not not my friend so i think that is is um uh you know because women want to be tough you see all these like women warriors and they can you know do everything a man can do and it's like yeah i think the toughness of women is i love my man so much that all those who do him harm are not my friends and may in fact be my enemies and I don't want to spend time with them if they won't redeem themselves through restitution apologies and restitution so I think looking for some because you know I don't think you've had an excessive loyalty to you over the course of your life and I think we all deserve that and we should provide that to others and once you get that kind of loyalty I mean obviously I've had a rather exciting career as a public figure and the The loyalty of my family is absolute. Once you get that kind of loyalty, man, oof, it's an incredible thing.
[1:41:47] And there's no substitutes.
[1:41:53] Awesome awesome productive advice thank you i got tons of uh of notes here this uh this has been really helpful.
[1:42:01] Good good will you keep me posted about how things are going.
[1:42:05] Oh yeah if uh if that's okay uh.
[1:42:08] No not okay i'd love to know i mean you seem like a great guy and i've really enjoyed the conversation and you know i have a lot of sympathy for how you were treated and and you know good for you for drawing that line and i think that that will serve you well in the future. And I just really, really appreciate it. I really do appreciate the conversation.
[1:42:25] Oh, yeah, of course. Do you have maybe 90 seconds to two minutes for me to tell you my four favorite lessons from Stefan Molyneux?
[1:42:36] Hey, enough about me. Let's talk about what you think of me. Yes, I would love to hear. Thank you.
[1:42:42] As I said previously, your propaganda analysis videos is where I really found you this. So I've I've been waiting maybe six years to tell you this. Lesson number one, this was from Everyday Anarchy. The importance of disassociating with bad actors in every aspect of life. No exceptions. Don't be afraid to have standards. That was so vitally important for me to hear again and again and again and incorporate into my everyday life that people are generally shocked when I say, you know what? This person is not worth the opportunity cost of my time.
[1:43:19] People are shocked when I say that, but I only say it with that amount of confidence because you taught me that lesson. Lesson number two, use precise language. So when one of these emails comes in and it says, was I the perfect father? No. To which the Stefan Molyneux, like my brain goes on and says, well, that's just something that applies to everyone. No one's perfect. So that's not even a reasonable metric. So using precise language, which you've even caught me on this call using imprecise language, which that's my second lesson, the importance of analogies. People can be very tied to analogies, The one specific instance, but your brilliant ability to use analogies to sort of extract a principle while giving them variables that they don't have emotional ties to, I thought was brilliant. And then lesson number four was hold people accountable for their statements to their face. Case you had an exchange with a guy where he had said, well, I'm going to stay with my girlfriend, but I'd break up with her if, you know, I guess if she ever really violated my trust. And you said, well, she already did that. She cheated on you and gave you an STD. So are you going to break up with her or just move to Gold Post? And I remember being, my gosh, I wish I had the confidence to say that to someone's face.
[1:44:42] It's easy when they're on a different continent, but yeah.
[1:44:46] I would not have had the confidence to say that on the phone. And I go, this is what a productive exchange of ideas looks like. And at the time, I for so long had always had the position that you recently had another video go viral on Twitter where it's you asking a gentleman if Israel should have open borders since diversity is such a strength. And he weaseled his way out of it. And my position for so long was Israel has a right to be a uniquely Jewish state and immigration is bad. But open borders for other countries is totally virtuous. That contradiction never came to my mind until you really pointed it out. So those were the four things that I've been waiting some time to tell you. So this has been an absolute pleasure, Stefan. Thank you so much.
[1:45:36] Yeah, and I also, it's funny because I guess, oh, great minds think alike. When you were talking about the analogies, of course, I was thinking about the analogy of the doctor I used in the role play in this conversation. And I was thinking about how people can look at the analogies without the emotional intent. And I was going to say that, but then you completely unpacked that in what you were saying, that people can extract the principles without the emotional attachment and so on. And I appreciated that insight. I hadn't really thought about it in that way, but I guess you certainly illuminated that for me, and I really, really do appreciate that. That's great to get that insight. All right, brother. Well, thank you so much for the call and, of course, for your interest in the show over the years. I really appreciate that. You can keep me posted about how things are going in the Skype window. If we can ever talk again, that would be of value to you. I'd be happy to do that, and I appreciate your chat today.
[1:46:24] Absolutely, Stefan. Thank you so much for your time and all the free materials you've provided the world in general. Take care.
[1:46:30] Hey, man, somebody's got to help subsidize your addiction to Asian women. So I'm very, very happy to have contributed to that. So all right, man, take care. Have a great day.
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