My Bride Cheated Months after Marriage! Freedomain Call In - Transcript

Chapters

0:00 - Troubled Times Ahead
24:49 - Marriage vs. Living Together
33:00 - Compromise & Regrets
34:08 - Seeking Last-Minute Guidance
36:27 - Decision-Making and Divorce
43:08 - Shifting Power Dynamics
56:17 - Balancing Career and Parenthood
1:02:06 - Childhood Patterns and Gaslighting
1:10:23 - Lack of Parental Guidance
1:12:17 - False Choices and Relationship Dynamics
1:14:03 - Family Relationships
1:27:22 - Marriage Compromises
1:38:55 - Communication Struggles
1:44:30 - Unequal Compromise Assessment
1:50:03 - Relationship Reflections
2:05:03 - Future Family Concerns
2:17:52 - Parental Influence Impact
2:22:59 - A Chance for Happiness

Long Summary

Join me as I delve into a riveting conversation with a caller who bravely shares his heart-wrenching tale of discovering his wife's infidelity. The caller recounts the shock of uncovering explicit messages revealing his wife's affair, reflecting on past incidents that now seem like red flags. We explore the complexities of love and marriage as the caller reveals his wife's questionable interactions with an ex-lover and the emotional turmoil he grapples with. As we navigate the caller's relationship timeline, we uncover a web of betrayal and shattered trust, shedding light on the challenges of maintaining faith in a relationship.

Moving forward, we discuss the caller's relationship dynamics, including his partner's reluctance to marry and their living situation. I question the caller's decisions to compromise and underscore the importance of setting standards in relationships. The caller seeks advice on his current predicament, expressing remorse for not addressing issues sooner. Through our conversation, we emphasize the significance of open communication and proactive resolution of concerns to avoid reaching a point of irreconcilable differences.

Our dialogue shifts to another caller contemplating divorce and expressing concerns about sacrificing too much in the relationship. We analyze the risks associated with compromising one's standards and explore the caller's upbringing, particularly his father's submissive behavior in disagreements with his mother. Personal anecdotes surface, illustrating how seemingly trivial issues can mirror deeper power dynamics within relationships. We delve into the caller's inclination to prioritize his partner's preferences over his own, probing into the underlying factors guiding his behavior and emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and boundary-setting.

In a poignant moment, the caller shares insights into his strained relationships with his parents, detailing his mother's abrasive demeanor and his father's passive involvement. Childhood experiences of feeling neglected and controlled by his parents come to light, showcasing the caller's resilience in asserting himself and establishing priorities. We navigate the impact of these past challenges on the caller's current relationships, highlighting the necessity of self-awareness and clear boundaries in managing familial issues.

As the conversation continues, we unpack the complexities of compromise in relationships, focusing on one caller's struggles with marriage and parenthood hesitations. We explore instances where individuals make sacrifices for their partner's happiness, underscoring the importance of mutual understanding and reciprocation. However, we observe a lack of self-reflection and empathy in the caller, signaling potential communication gaps and a need for mutual respect in the relationship. We stress the vital role of effective communication and consideration for each other's needs in fostering a healthy and fulfilling partnership.

Concluding our discussion, we tackle the caller's concerns about his girlfriend's behavior and potential infidelity, emphasizing the implications of her actions on their future. We delve into the underlying motives driving the girlfriend's conduct and the significance of prevention and self-growth moving forward. By encouraging the caller to seek feedback from loved ones and reflect on his relationship dynamics, we aim to empower him to make informed decisions and cultivate a relationship built on trust and transparency. Through honesty, self-care, and a commitment to breaking detrimental patterns, we pave the way for a brighter future rooted in mutual respect and understanding.

Transcript

[0:00] Troubled Times Ahead

[0:00] Hello, can you hear me?

[0:03] Hi.

[0:03] Hey, hey, hey. Right, right. Gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about all of this.

[0:10] I was just going to ask you, how is the audio? Is it acceptable?

[0:13] Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I appreciate that. Thanks. So, yeah, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. What's going on? How can I help?

[0:20] Oh. Oh, well.

[0:26] Basically, let's see, sort of the penny was in the air, so to speak, on Sunday night in my area, that is. um and um yeah uh and then i in in the early morning found out through like um messaging uh you know sexting and all that sort of thing like very graphic stuff but um yeah and yeah them talking about having sex and planning to meet up and all that sort of thing um yeah but my wife had been cheating on me so long yeah that's uh that's just been in the last how did you come across these messages yeah so this turned a lot of people because i just didn't reach out to everyone everyone's been great but like um uh yeah so um uh sorry i've got no filter and i'm just going to be frank but um yeah we were having sex on um saturday night my wife and i was um.

[1:34] And this would have been like 11 o'clock at night or so. Maybe we finished up 20 minutes later than that or something. And then she went to the bathroom and I heard like her friend was on a bedside table. I heard a message like when you receive a message from Messenger, like a message coming in. And I didn't really think anything of it particularly. I was just like, oh, that's a little bit odd timing wise.

[1:58] You mean because it was so late at night?

[2:00] She came back to bed. Sorry.

[2:01] You mean because it was so late at night or?

[2:04] Yeah, just the time. I was like, oh, that's a little bit odd. Yeah, just because of the time. And she came back to bed and we chatted about some things. She had grabbed her phone and turned off the lights and stuff. We do that through an app.

[2:19] And we were chatting about different things. And then I also mentioned, I was like, oh, so who's messaging you at, you know, this time of day or night on a Saturday? And she's like, oh, I don't know. And I was just like, what do you mean you don't know? You just checked your phone. And she's like, oh, yeah, it was a group message. Like, so I saw that there was a message on a group, but like, you know, I didn't see who was writing it or whatever, blah, blah, blah. are um probably some you know her like person she likes to sort of uh bitch about in a group um because she doesn't like so much but um but uh yeah so i i thought i'd seen her open something before that so i was like i thought she did check it because like i i know you know the app that we use the lights for of course um i didn't say anything about that i was just like oh okay well.

[3:10] Odd um and it just really didn't sit right on me i was just sort of lying there and like you know couldn't sleep for i don't know maybe 20 minutes or something and then like it's just the most strange sensation and experience of it like sort of hitting me like it physically felt like something hitting me or something like it took the air out of me it was the best way i can sort of describe it is like just getting chucked into ice cold water like it took the air out of me i I just felt freezing cold all of a sudden and just started shaking. And my body was just like, something is really wrong. And I didn't quite sort of cognitively understand things, but I was just, something's really wrong. And of course, my wife notices this because I'm just rambling like nothing else.

[4:02] And yeah, so she's like, what's going on and everything? everything. And I was like, um, I'm weird. I don't know what's going on. Like, and I couldn't sleep all night. And I ended up getting up at like five in the morning. Um.

[4:17] And like, I just like, it had sort of clicked then and like that she was lying and whatever. And I was just, I mean, not myself, but like, you know, it's not something I'd ever treat my wife that way or anything. And, but like, I just grabbed a phone, like I wouldn't usually do this, but like I just needed to check and like wanted to know that everything was all right, basically. But yeah, so I grabbed a phone so I could check on that. she'd um i guess just like that night changed the access pin like to open her phone um and i was like what the fuck so that was like after we'd had that conversation she'd gone back to the bathroom and stuff which is not unusual for her she has ocd um so she's a bit like that um but like yeah she'd obviously taken her phone to sort of the bath like we've got a separate toilet so not on the toilet presumably but um like that fucking matters now but anyway um yeah she changed the code after we had that conversation about the message and so it's five in the morning i turn the lights on grab a phone hold it out to her and i'm like and again i wouldn't usually talk to anyone let alone my wife that way but i was just like open it like really demanding just yelling and that wakes her up of course and i'm like open it and she's like what why and i'm just like just.

[5:43] Do it now and so she did and i i get it and then she's sort of waking up and she's like wait why do you need that and like is like oh fuck like she's going oh fuck like um and she's like trying to grab it off me and like why do you need that and i'm like because you've been lying to me i know you've lied and i need to just check on this and she's like no no and like just trying to like grab me like ripped my shirt off like trying to grab the phone out from me and like Like I just ran out of the house with it. And yeah, so, um, um.

[6:16] As bad as you can imagine, just all the sexting images, videos, talking about when they were having sex, talking about meeting up. They were going to meet up that next morning as well. She recently, for context, started a job in a town a couple of hours away. She's always been more like, oh, look, I want a career. And I was like, okay, I can be the more flexible one in the partner. I was not a traditional male-female, but I was like, hey, that's fine. if that's the deal like we can make that work um so but yeah she she started a job um in a town a couple hours away where her parents actually live so she's just been staying with them during the week for a few weeks now because she just started that job and i can work from anywhere but we've still got this lease on a place where we're staying so i've mostly just been here and like she's mostly been um coming back here on weekends and would spend time um, Sorry, I haven't slept for a couple of days, really, so I might lose the plot a little bit.

[7:16] Listen, brother, brother, you have nothing to apologize for. It's a heartbreaking story, and you have nothing to apologize for. Just keep going.

[7:26] So, well, I mean, that's how I found out. And, like, because it was not on my radar, like, but, you know, there were signs. signs um but like you know i just never suspected that until i i don't know i maybe it all ended up and like just physically my buddy was just like fuck dude fucking pay attention because like it's not like i've felt anything like that before but like yeah anyway, um do any questions come to mind because oh totally yeah yeah totally um.

[8:01] So what were the the signs sort of when you look back at your marriage what were the signs do you think that she was cheating.

[8:07] We got married uh approximately six months ago um i don't think she was cheating on me sort of at the time i'm not sure if she's cheated on me before uh i guess it's fairly likely um but i don't know um we had a lovely wedding you know planning out looking forward to that I had a great wedding. I went back to our accommodation and, you know, we don't like, it's not like we, our drink is really, like, so it's not like we were passing out or anything. It wasn't super, super late or anything. But, you know, it had been a big day. We were both tired and everything. And, you know, I was in the mood to, you know, have a wedding at night. And she was, I mean, I'm totally paraphrasing, she didn't actually say fuck off, but the attitude was just like, fuck off, I'm exhausted. And that was really something to deal with. I'm like, oh, what's wrong? And tried to talk to her about it, and she's just like, no, I shouldn't have to. I'm like, I'm exhausted. It was really hard for me to process, but I just kind of was like, okay. Yeah.

[9:13] And sort of like the start of the wedding since, well, the start of the marriage ever since just the wedding itself has kind of been, yeah, not right, which is crazy. But I'm just sorry. I thought I'd start sort of chronologically with it. And then the day after, like when we were at the accommodation, which she didn't as well, because I was trying to, you know, just like in a nice way and everything. thing but you know facilitate and all all of that um no and then like the third day the last day we were staying at the accommodations and everything i like it was just like what is wrong like and just like it was like what i'm freaking out like what's going on like we're married like why what like i i get if it's like tired or whatever but like it doesn't need to be perfect like we just need each other sort of thing and like really let her know i was like really having a hard time with that and like we did which was good uh but like just not a good start to have to get to there um, and then so uh so uh talking about times of years for listeners by the way um what are we talking on the 6th of may um currently uh stephan you mean like just in reference just in reference to the year for the story for people uh currently you and i are speaking on the 6th yeah that's I mean.

[10:36] We're a little apart, but yeah, that's fine.

[10:38] Yeah, so I got married in October. But... Yeah, on New Year's Eve, they were a bit drunk, we just had a friend over, we didn't really get up too much, had a few drinks and whatever, and they were getting a bit silly. It's more my wife, so to speak, not that I regard her as such now, but we'll say that. But my wife's friend more, and they were a bit whatever. And then my wife checked a message and was like, well, that's weird. and like um basically it was an ex and she's like oh an ex and whatever and i was just like oh i'm married now um and so i was just like well i guess you could just dismiss someone like that and you know i was like that's weird like why do you have weirdos still like anyway um you know i was just like that's weird but yeah you just miss it and just be like yeah i'm married like what no like um but yeah obviously that was the guy and um they've since like and probably all year been um Kind of out of it. He's an ex, apparently.

[11:44] Sorry to interrupt. I got a little bit lost on the last bit. So after you got married last October, you met this guy?

[11:58] No, I've never met the guy. No, we just had a small friend to be social for New Year's Eve after October. But like, so just the next sort of milestone in the story is she got a message from an ex and like, you know, sort of sliding into a DM sort of like thing, I guess. And she commented on that and was just like, oh, no, I'm married and like replied, I'm married now. And then she's like, oh, that's weird. He said that's unfortunate or something. And I was just like, oh, well, I guess you would dismiss a guy. But I didn't think too much about it. You know, it's weird. And I didn't.

[12:35] Sorry. Oh, it's weird. It's weird that some guy sent her a flirty message. Yeah.

[12:40] Uh yeah yeah like an ex doing that like drunk on i presume a play on like new year's eve and all that sort of shit um so i was just like that's really weird um but she's not sorry sorry she's not yeah oh.

[12:53] Because she's still in touch with him.

[12:54] Yeah yeah yeah i.

[12:56] Mean he could have just messaged her out of the blue without having.

[13:00] Followed her life but still like and just a guy like that and stuff and then being like oh that's unfortunate like you know to i'm married and stuff and said like oh congratulations or like i'm glad you're doing well in life that's just you know it's it doesn't speak well of like um the person so like just having, an ex uh with that kind of attitude and stuff it's not yeah he's uh he's looking for he's.

[13:27] Looking for a booty call he can't get what he wants so that's unfortunate right okay.

[13:32] Yeah exactly and like, um it's.

[13:36] Also leaving the door open.

[13:37] But right it also indicates because i found out recently sorry um that he was um they dated briefly about 10 years ago before we had mad of course um and like basically they only ever dated in like the first phase and like everything like you know feel good chemicals and stuff and then he moved overseas to um well i guess that doesn't matter but um he moved overseas um and um to where he was from again um and yeah he's sort of you know they basically broke up because of distance and well i mean obviously there was no commitment there as well then so um but so basically i think she's just had this like magical image of like this perfect relationship because it just ended in like this one that only had you know all that that good good like you know initial sort of um so anyway they've been messaging like the whole time um ever since apparently so i guess she's sort of emotionally at least been cheating ever since he.

[14:36] Said that's unfortunate because she's married they.

[14:38] Continue to mess i mean when they were dating 10 years ago and he moved overseas they didn't stop messaging each other ever like really so uh.

[14:46] But and was this the guy who sent the message about that's unfortunate fortunate i.

[14:50] Don't know if it's certain but like i'm pretty you know like it would be yes yes.

[14:56] Okay okay so she kept in touch with this guy now tell me a little bit about, before the marriage how long have you guys been together.

[15:07] Uh i guess before getting married um like six and a bit years or something uh so you know a long time Oh.

[15:14] Six years. Okay.

[15:16] We've been presently together for at least seven years, sort of.

[15:21] Right, right. So you got married six months ago, but you were together six, six and a half years before you got married. And did you meet in your early 20s?

[15:30] Late 20s.

[15:31] Late 20s. Dude, what are you talking about?

[15:34] Mid to late 20s.

[15:35] So you met in your late 20s, and you only get married in your mid 30s?

[15:40] I know.

[15:41] Why? Why?

[15:45] Um okay uh well i have sort of i guess not too dissimilar views to you in some way of course uh oh no i think i think we have dissimilar views i'm.

[15:57] Pretty sure we have dissimilar views on this stuff i mean.

[16:00] Yeah no i totally get where you're coming from could i finish just what i was saying um i think the context of the sentence would make it make a bit more sense yeah go ahead um so i was always pushing for that kind of thing like um we started dating for you know like we dated for a year or whatever and i was like you know we were talking about you know progress and seriousness and whatever and um she had always lived with her parents um until she moved in with me but um she wanted to move in with me um for us to get a place um and i was like i don't think that's a good idea um i don't want to be unserious i don't want to just like like have some live-in situation and then like it like not have it serious and then break up and then we've got like an awkward domestic situation where we have to break up and things and like it just doesn't show commitment and stuff i was like i want to get married before we move in there but she was very not that i didn't want to break up with her and she was really um pushing for that so i was like okay but i told her look if you take it really seriously kind of like we're getting married um okay like we can move in together. But yeah, anyway, that's what I.

[17:08] So why was she living with her parents in her late 20s?

[17:16] Yeah, that's how it is, isn't it?

[17:18] I'm sorry?

[17:20] I said, yeah, that is how it is, isn't it?

[17:22] No, but why?

[17:27] My mind's gone blank.

[17:29] I mean, did she not have a job? Did she not have any money? Did she declare bankruptcy? Was she fleeing an abusive boyfriend? Like, why would she be living with her parents in her late 20s?

[17:39] She's done studying and living with her parents and working a bit. Yeah.

[17:46] And had you guys talked about having children?

[17:49] You know, did save some money.

[17:50] Sorry, had you guys talked? I know we've got a bit of a delay here. And did you guys want kids? Yes.

[17:56] I, that had been the understanding. Oh, come on.

[18:02] She's gone and- Yes or no? Did you want kids?

[18:04] So I'm not sure if she did. You don't know if she wanted kids? Ostensibly, yes. Yes, of course, ostensibly. Otherwise, it wouldn't have worked. We wouldn't have, like, I wouldn't have pursued things. Yeah.

[18:13] I'm sorry, I'm confused. Did she want kids?

[18:17] Yes.

[18:18] But I thought you said you weren't sure.

[18:21] I'm saying now, like, it doesn't make sense to me because she's gone and like at this stage of our lives uh anyway but yeah no it was always the understanding that we would have kids yes okay.

[18:32] So she after a year she wanted to move in and you said i'd rather get married and she said no right i just gonna move in.

[18:43] Yes yes sorry i'm not breaking up because of that so much as just like since i i just saw that i've gotten a message from her for the first time oh do you want to take a moment like i'm not going to open it now i like it that we i'm wanting to focus on this conversation but i don't know i don't i'm just saying i don't mind hang on listen.

[19:01] If if it will help you it will probably help you concentrate if you want to take a moment and read it that's totally fine with me.

[19:09] I think it'll just open up other stuff that's going to distract my mind we.

[19:14] Can talk about that other stuff if you like.

[19:20] It's my preference that we don't do that now not that we don't talk about other stuff of course we can I get what you mean.

[19:29] Now so, if you wanted to have kids why would you wait to get married until you're 35 or 36 are you the same age.

[19:44] She's Less than six months older than me, yes.

[19:50] Oh, so she's older than you.

[19:51] Okay.

[19:51] So are you 35 or 36? Yes.

[19:57] Approximately okay.

[19:59] So why would you wait to get married until she's in her mid-30s if you want kids.

[20:05] Yeah i mean i've brought all of these things up and like uh yeah uh i went along with it but basically you know we lived together for a little while and i was talking about marriage and stuff And she was very dismissive and like, I'm not ready to get married yet. And so I didn't know what to do with that, really. And so I just put it off until I was just like, oh, it's fucking now or never. I'm sorry. I've been swearing a lot.

[20:38] I don't care. I don't care. Forget about the swearing. That doesn't matter to me at all. Just whatever's on your mind. Just just say it.

[20:46] But yeah, I was like, well, it's fucking now or never. Like, I don't think she's going to say no. So like, yeah. Yeah. So I just got to that because we'd only ever talked about it and she'd been like, not now.

[21:00] Okay, so hang on. I'm sorry to interrupt because I know you're definitely upset and of course, it can make total sense. But I'm trying to understand a couple of things. So you said that recently she got a job in another town that's a couple of hours away and was staying with her parents during the week, right?

[21:19] Correct.

[21:21] So she started a new career in her mid thirties, right?

[21:27] Uh, well, I mean, it's related to, um, her career, but yeah, she made a move for career. Yes.

[21:34] So how the ever loving hell are you supposed to start a family if she started a big step up in her career and has moved away for the week weekdays?

[21:46] Oh, so we were just like, yeah, look, if you're going to be the main career person, um, you can do that. that um and you know i'll be more of the carer and sort of other flexible handling other things person so you would stay.

[22:00] Home with the babies.

[22:01] Yes of course yeah and.

[22:05] She would freeze her breast milk or and then go to work is that right.

[22:08] Yeah like uh i guess pump and uh you know do what she can when she's um there and otherwise i'd be you know taking care of the care um you know She'd be able to get some maternity leave as well, of course.

[22:22] I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying. She'd be able to get what?

[22:26] Some maternity leave as well.

[22:28] Right, but it's kind of tough to start a big new career thing and then take maternity leave, right?

[22:37] Yeah, not ideal, but it was a good step up in pay and career advancement and everything. Yeah.

[22:47] And so had she agreed? That you were going to have kids and that you were going to stay home and be the primary caregiver?

[22:57] Yes.

[22:59] And was that before or after she took the new job?

[23:05] Well, before and that was still the understanding.

[23:09] What do you mean that was the understanding? I don't know what that means.

[23:13] We don't have a talk about it. She's always been consistent. That's how we were going to do things.

[23:19] No, but there's no plan. Like, there's no specific plan. Let's start trying for babies. And she's 36.

[23:32] We were going to start trying seriously in two months from now, basically.

[23:39] Oh, so that was the plan?

[23:41] Yes.

[23:41] Okay, got it. So, there seems to be a whole series of things where you say, I would like this, and she says, no. No. I would like us to get married before we move in. No. Okay. I would like you to get married now. No. You'll have to wait. I would like to have sex on my wedding night. No. I would like to have a plan for kids. No. Maybe later. And I guess eventually you did have a plan for that. But it seems like she's kind of running the show a little, right?

[24:15] Yes.

[24:17] So why? Why? So you must think that she's higher above you in state. Hang on, let me finish. You must think she's higher above you in status because you're kind of a little bit trailing after her, right?

[24:31] I just thought we had different primary, like, focuses. I was, like, really keen on family. She was more keen on career is how I saw it.

[24:40] Well, what's that got to do with whether you get married or live together?

[24:48] I don't know. What does that have to do with that?

[24:49] Marriage vs. Living Together

[24:50] Well, you don't want to live together. You want to get married, right?

[24:58] I'm sorry. I didn't quite follow that. I think it's just because my brain's a bit sleep-depressed.

[25:04] Okay, so you want to get married before you live together, right?

[25:13] Yes, yes.

[25:13] So why isn't that the standard that you follow? so then she says no i want to live together and not get married and you say well no that's not my standard so we will live apart until we get married that's my standard like but you folded on that standard right yes yes um.

[25:32] And, well i did try to put forward my like um you know expectations and being like well well, okay, I'll do it so that we can continue having a relationship. And, but I really need to take it seriously.

[25:50] Did she say, if we can't live together, I'm breaking up with you?

[26:00] If we were not going to get married and she wanted to move in with me, um, like it just seemed like, uh, like a compromise, like, okay, but you need to take it really serious, not just like live in, like, I want you to think of it as like progress towards marriage. Like we, we need to, yeah. Okay. She, she agreed to that. She's like, okay.

[26:28] In the relationship, what did she compromise on? Because you compromised on some very big things, right? So what did she compromise on?

[26:38] Nothing comparable comes to mind.

[26:40] Okay, give me something not comparable.

[26:47] Yeah, my mind's gone blank.

[26:56] Okay so you folded.

[26:57] And she dictated yes okay.

[27:01] So why why why is that why is that the case why.

[27:05] Yeah i want to get to the bottom of that um i did have like an inner step and was thinking about things and whatever um just you know in the last while um that's my parents relationship um, Yeah, whenever they really had a fight about something or really had differences, basically my mother would escalate and my dad would eventually pretty much just end up folding. So, I mean, there's that, but I don't know why exactly.

[27:38] Well, and are your parents happy together? Yeah.

[27:45] Not the relationship I'd want, sir.

[27:47] Okay, so it's not the relationship you'd want.

[27:49] They're not miserable people, but no. You know, it's not the happiest relationship.

[27:54] Okay, so if doing what your father does gives you a relationship you don't want, then why would you do what your father does?

[28:07] It's fucking stupid. God.

[28:10] Well, I mean, the other thing, too, is you said, well, listen, I don't want to live together before we get married because most times that turns into a disaster right and what actually yeah and what happened it turned into a disaster it didn't i mean am i wrong you're not wrong right so you say no i don't want to live together i want to get married because otherwise things are likely to turn into a disaster and she's like no i want things my way and you guys live together for five years or whatever and then you get married and it's a disaster which is exactly what you were concerned about with living together before getting married right yeah.

[28:52] I'm just gonna say it because it just hit me now it's a tangent it's a bit of a blip maybe that's a defense but like um, i know there's um some uh like i haven't looked into research about it but i've heard about like um she's always been on the pill for our relationship and you know since we were going going to start trying for family basically uh basically this year she's stopped um the pill as well but that just came to mind.

[29:15] No that's that's that's a very real thing right so when women are on the pill they tend to be attracted to more passive men and then when they get off the pill they tend to be attractive to more aggressive men yeah, So, the question is the passivity.

[29:39] Yeah.

[29:39] So, what happens if she says, I want to live together, and you say, we have to be married, and she says, no, I really want to live together. What happens if you say, no, I'm out of care for our relationship. If you want to live with me, you're going to have to marry me, right? And what happens if you have that standard and stick to it?

[30:09] I think we would have broken up. I think she would have seen it as an irreconcilable difference and I wasn't being reasonable.

[30:19] Well, how is it reasonable for her to get her way? That's not reasonable. If it's unreasonable to have a standard, then she has a standard called, I want to live together. Why is it unreasonable for her to get her way and not you for you to get your way?

[30:37] Well, you know, like I'm not defending it, but I think the view was like, yeah, I was trying to negotiate and be like, well, this is why I believe this. So we need to be, you know, make sure we do take things really seriously, like not just moving in. Like, you know, it's serious.

[30:50] And what is moving in with an what is moving in with an asterisk called really serious mean? I mean, really serious is marriage. What is it like? Like, well, it's exactly the same as marriage, but without marriage.

[31:05] You're right.

[31:14] So for how long, how long did, when she moved in, how long did you expect to be living together before you got married? Or what was your thought about that?

[31:23] Maybe two years top.

[31:25] Okay. So how did that become five years?

[31:30] I talked about it, brought it up. I was like, hey, we should get married. And she's like, I don't want to now. And then it became later, and I was just like, well, I'd better fucking do it, because otherwise, like, you know.

[31:45] Otherwise what?

[31:46] Like, sort of now or never.

[31:48] Well, do you regret proposing?

[31:53] No, I do.

[31:54] Well, of course you do, right? Right? So why did you propose when she didn't want to get married? Like she didn't come to you and say, I'm ready. Let's do it. I'm sorry I made you wait so long.

[32:11] No. No. Well, it had been a while since we'd talked about it, and I thought she would say yes. I thought she would want it. She did say yes, so I thought she wanted to get married.

[32:26] All right.

[32:29] I mean, why would you say yes to marrying someone if you don't want to marry someone?

[32:34] Well, I mean, that's trying to plumb the depths of a woman who's obviously not particularly trustworthy, which is a hole too deep for a mortal man. So, yeah. So you compromise a lot and she didn't compromise at all. Is that right?

[32:52] Essentially, yes.

[32:54] Okay. So we have to go back to why. Now, saying your father, listen, if you were some noob to philosophy.

[33:00] Compromise & Regrets

[33:00] Oh, I did have an example of small things where she'd compromise. Like, you know, we were looking for houses we've been renting and stuff. And when we'd look for a new place, yeah, she took, you know, my primary considerations into, you know, concern very much as well. Like, you know, there's some things like that, whereas, you know, they were really not very high on her concern. And like, she would have just cared about other stuff.

[33:27] Well, so she compromised where she didn't care. I suppose so. Well, isn't that right? I mean, if it's not important to her.

[33:34] It's not too inconvenient, I guess, so she...

[33:37] Okay, so that's not a compromise, right?

[33:42] That would have been a better way to look at it, I guess, yes.

[33:46] Okay. So how long have you been listening to this show?

[33:55] Just, I think I just started, like I might have seen the truce about the Crusades on YouTube around the time we got together.

[34:04] Okay, so six and a half years ago, right?

[34:08] Say seven.

[34:08] Seeking Last-Minute Guidance

[34:09] Seven years ago. Why are you calling me now?

[34:16] Because I know I need to get it straight now. I didn't accept that earlier.

[34:25] Why are you calling me now? As opposed to at any time over the last seven years.

[34:33] Because I'm really running out of time to get what I want in life and because but.

[34:40] You understand how frustrating you understand how frustrating it is to me yes right yes do you think I wouldn't have taken your call if you say ah you know I got this relationship she doesn't compromise uh you know you do great work at the call-in shows I really could use your help to avoid making a mistake blah blah blah right.

[35:02] Yeah, of course. Although, you know, to start with, and like, I was getting very attached to her and getting really into your stuff because I thought it was great straight away. But, you know, I didn't really take it on board. And, you know, it takes a while, but it doesn't take seven years. I'm just running out of the obvious.

[35:18] It doesn't take seven years. Okay. Yeah. So you understand you're calling. It's like I'm an insurance company and you're calling the insurance company for fire insurance when your house is burnt to the ground. Philosophy is about prevention, right?

[35:34] Yeah, that's why I'm like, I can't fuck things up again. It's like if I've got another chance, it's only one.

[35:41] Well, it's tight, right? Because you're in your mid thirties. Really tight. Now you've got to go, how long does it take to get divorced?

[35:51] Yeah, it's not quick.

[35:52] Right, so it's a year or two. I don't know.

[35:54] Let's say a year.

[35:55] Yeah, but then you've got to untangle your finances. You've got to, I guess, move. And I don't know. I mean, I don't want to prejudge. Is that what you think where things are going?

[36:08] Oh, yeah. I can't trust her. There's no relationship to be had.

[36:11] Okay, so have you told her that, or have you been in any communication about that?

[36:18] I was yelling my head off at first when this all blew up um i was feeling like a crazy person but yeah i was clear about we're done yeah like.

[36:27] Decision-Making and Divorce

[36:28] It's over divorce okay and have you.

[36:30] Talked to lawyers or no that's um okay i mean it's been a couple of days today right and yeah it's been yeah like just i haven't gotten to sleep in since so yeah okay so not not asleep in as in sleeping long time just not any sleep really so so.

[36:48] Why why is she so high status to you that you don't feel you can assert anything because you're treating her like a boss.

[37:03] Right because i'd say there's a bit of a mirror to it as well because like about stuff like i didn't care about having the role too much anyway. So I was like, sorry, you didn't care about having the one. Like, I didn't care about having a career role particularly. It's like someone has to have it and it doesn't need to be me. If you care about it more, like, so I guess, you know, um, some of it's just compromising on stuff where it, you know, either way, it doesn't really matter too much to me.

[37:35] So, well, but what about your kids? I mean, I mean, wouldn't you want what's best for you? Is it best for your children, for the mother to stay home and breastfeed? Or is it better for you to jam a bottle in their faces?

[37:54] Well, like I was saying, when they're really young, she could have some maternity leave anyway and do that for half the day. And I thought just taking care of the baby the rest of the time, as long as they've got their primary carer, it's not ideal. It's more direct to a mother that's a little bit better. But it didn't strike me as being substantially better.

[38:18] Okay. How many kids do you want? Yes.

[38:24] An impossible amount for my age or our age um but as many as we could work out okay.

[38:32] So two three four five whatever as many as you can have right.

[38:35] Like seven yeah whatever okay not that that would be possible but you know like so you want yeah you.

[38:42] Want a lot of kids right.

[38:42] Ideally okay.

[38:45] So if you want a lot of kids.

[38:48] You know if i had one kid i'd be thrilled with that as well oh okay.

[38:52] But you want more than one. So if you want a lot of kids, how can she have a career? Because there's a lot of mat leave, right? I mean, it kind of sucks for companies if they keep hiring a woman who then turns around and goes on mat leave for six or 12 months, right?

[39:12] Yeah. The nature of her work, she wouldn't actually, like, there's a lot of opportunity to be able to work from home and those sorts of things as well.

[39:20] No, but working from home isn't fair for the children.

[39:24] No, but I'd still be the primary carer and just be able to take a little bit of time to do some breastfeeding and that sort of thing is what I thought about it.

[39:32] Oh, so she wouldn't take the mat leave then or she would?

[39:43] She probably would, yeah.

[39:45] So she would take the mat leave for like two or three kids. And how long was the mat leave? Six months, 12 months? Anything else?

[39:52] She only agreed that we would have one kid and then see. And that was like, it's not my work.

[39:58] Oh, so you want a budget. Exactly. Oh, hang on. It's acceptable. So this isn't about a compromise, right?

[40:04] Yeah.

[40:05] Holy crap, you spineless son of a gun.

[40:09] Yeah.

[40:09] You want a lot of kids. and she's like, well, we'll have one and then we'll see.

[40:14] Yeah.

[40:15] I mean, bro. Okay, so how long would she take in mat leave?

[40:24] I'm not sure, like three months?

[40:29] She would take three months of mat leave?

[40:32] I actually don't know exactly what it is.

[40:34] Well, but you know that the recommended breastfeeding is 18 months, right?

[40:39] Yeah, of course.

[40:40] And do you think it's good for a child to have a primary caregiver for three months who then basically vanishes?

[40:54] I hadn't thought about it, really. No, no, no. I know you're right.

[41:00] No, you don't get this. You've listened to this show, right? What do you do is what's best for your kids, right? You've heard this a million times, right?

[41:09] Of course.

[41:10] Okay, so saying I hadn't thought about what's best for my kids when I'm desperate to have kids, and I've been thinking about it for six years, is not an excuse, right?

[41:18] In my mind, I was the primary carer, and I'd have extra care for that period, like, you know, with the mother as well.

[41:26] Now, do you know the risks of divorce when the man stays home and the woman is working? You know the risks. When the woman's income is higher than the man, you know the risks of cheating and divorce, right?

[41:36] Yeah.

[41:37] So why would you agree to something that's so risky?

[41:45] Because that's not causal, I thought. You just decide, like, to get married, and, like, if you've, obviously, she didn't, but, like, to me, in my mind.

[41:57] No, no, no, no, if you're married, and the woman out-earns the husband, and in particular, if the husband then stays home, the risk of divorce goes up considerably.

[42:06] Yes.

[42:07] I mean, you're aware of this stuff, right?

[42:10] Yeah.

[42:11] Okay. So you're setting yourself up for a very risky situation.

[42:15] I thought that out, yeah.

[42:17] I'm sorry?

[42:17] But yes, you're right. Well, yeah, I thought we'd just sort that out and, like, there'd be strain and we'd work through anything that, you know. But yes, you're correct.

[42:29] Okay, so you're taking on one risk factor, which is living together without being married, and you're taking on another risk factor, which is being the primary caregiver for children, right?

[42:39] Yes, yes.

[42:40] And the inevitable happened. Right. I mean, you can only roll the dice only so many times before you get snake eyes, right? I'm not taking away her agency, but... Yeah, exactly.

[42:57] So I was just like, well, it's agency. But yeah, you've got a great point, of course.

[43:04] Now, why is it only you who has to compromise?

[43:08] Shifting Power Dynamics

[43:08] Because you're treating her like a boss, right? So when you have a boss and your boss says, I want you to do X, Y, and Z, you can say, maybe that's not a great idea, or here's my suggestion, or here's my preferences, but who gets the final say on what you do?

[43:24] The boss.

[43:25] Right. So why is she your boss? Why are you treating her like a boss? Yes.

[43:41] I'm not exactly sure um i think that's just always been how life was with uh you know when i was raised women no because if you listen.

[43:54] To this show you know about self-knowledge you know about looking for prior patterns and not repeating.

[44:00] Them right yeah so the great the great joy of listening to this show is you.

[44:05] Lose all excuses for repetition.

[44:08] Yeah.

[44:09] Right? I mean, if you watch your father die of lung cancer from smoking too much, you don't get to say, well, that's why I became a smoker. You say, well, that's why I didn't touch cigarettes, right?

[44:22] Yeah.

[44:22] So if you saw your father get pushed around and he's not happy, then you have no excuse for being pushed around, right?

[44:31] Yes.

[44:32] So why are you being pushed around?

[44:45] I didn't feel pushed around, really.

[44:49] Oh, please, don't be this girly. Don't be this girly. I'm asking you for a fact and you're giving me a feeling. but you were right i mean she you compromised she didn't i mean this is nothing you told me like five instances within the first 10 minutes of the convo so you're not unaware of this stuff i didn't have to dig for an hour to find it yeah so then if i say why were you pushed around you say well i didn't feel pushed around that's very feminine right yes and i don't i but you were pushed around. I can't judge your feelings, but I can judge the facts that you gave me, right?

[45:30] Of course.

[45:30] So why, if you say, hey, if you want to live together, we're going to have to get married. And she's like, well, I don't want to get married. It's like, well, that's the standard. Take it or leave it, right? So let's say she then says, well, too bad. We've been dating for a year, but I'm not going to marry you. Right. Would it have been better for you to hold to your standard five and a half years ago?

[45:57] Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. hugely.

[46:00] Right. And you were also listening to a show where I say holding to your standards is essential for life, right?

[46:07] Yes.

[46:08] Okay. And I think you have an example in me of somebody who's reasonably well held onto my standards, right?

[46:15] Yeah.

[46:17] So why do you fold? And I know that sounds accusatory. I don't mean it in an accusatory way. I'm not trying to make you feel bad i'm genuinely curious when you're listening to a podcast saying hold on to your standards and when you in hindsight after half a decade later say it would have been way better to hold on to my standards and you don't hold on to your standards the question is why and it can't be because of your father because again you listen to a show that teaches you to identify these patterns so why do you not hold on to your standards holding.

[46:52] On to an excuse for like a drug, I think.

[46:57] Okay, but a drug is something we use to cover up prior pain and trauma. So you must view her as superior to you in order to trail after her like this half-lost puppy, right? You must view her as superior to you. Is she prettier? Is she way smarter? Is she, I don't know, taller? Is she, she makes much more money? Her family is way better? Like, is there some way in which you perceive her as superior to you? That you need her, but she doesn't need you as much?

[47:32] About my equal in all of those regards.

[47:41] Okay, so there's no way. So you make the same money, is that right?

[47:46] Right um no she makes more because that's and how much more you don't have to give me exact figures.

[47:53] Is it like 20 more 50 more 10 100 uh.

[47:58] Until recently um not a very big gap um but like maybe 10 to 20 more um but then she was actually unemployed for a few months and i was sort of more supporting her a bit um and um and then she got this new job and um, and yeah she'd be earning i don't know 70 percent more.

[48:24] Okay and so you're both the same level of attractiveness right.

[48:30] Physically yes um yeah yes let's say yes okay.

[48:35] And are you both the same level of fitness or athleticism or physique or anything like that.

[48:42] That's something i found less attractive about her is she's not very um physically uh capable um i'll type to you like i don't want to give away too much identifying information but she had an issue um and um yeah so she did have like some good biological excuse to be less sort of um physically active and sporty but yeah Yeah, she definitely was not physically active and sporty.

[49:11] Okay, and was she overweight?

[49:21] Very slightly.

[49:24] Okay. And...

[49:29] She's got a figure where she puts on the weight in mostly the right places and looks very good with it, if you know what I mean.

[49:38] Yeah, yeah. Okay, got it.

[49:40] Like, it's not ideal, but like...

[49:41] Fat distribution of the gods, right?

[49:42] Her body makes it work for her as well as, you know, it could be attractive.

[49:47] Right. Okay, got it. Okay, so then why does she get her way? Okay, let me ask you this. So when you were raised, when you were being raised, how did you notice that your father was weak? Or how did you notice that your father was not negotiating from any position of equality or strength?

[50:21] Sorry, am I on now? I had a call coming in. I cut out this one.

[50:25] No, no problem. Do you need to take the call?

[50:27] No, I don't.

[50:28] Okay. So when you were growing up, obviously as a child, how did you notice that your father didn't have much strength in the relationship or much authority?

[50:41] I don't remember the context, like, sorry, the content of like, arguments with them and whatever. But one of the lead really disagree and sort of, yeah, like it became more like of a heated sort of thing and whatever. She just escalate and like, so it blew up a bit and then he'd end up capitulating, basically. Can you remember an example? i cannot but i can well i can sort of think of a very petty thing but like i sort of understand why it made him feel uncared for but um like they had cutlery that they didn't like especially my dad didn't care for so much like he didn't like the forks and he preferred the other forks that we had and so like he's you know always would let my mother know uh when you're making the table if you could set out the forks are like for me i'd really appreciate it and like it just never ever happened and it made him feel really unappreciated and then like it just became a big like blow up about fucking forks like ridiculous.

[51:39] Your dad your dad preferred particular forks?

[51:45] Yeah like the bigger ones yeah.

[51:48] Wow never heard of, I've never heard, I honestly couldn't care less but what do I know?

[51:52] I do actually understand it's mildly preferable.

[51:56] Okay okay so he preferred a particular fork which your mother would never provide to him right?

[52:03] No she just didn't pay it any mind so it was just random.

[52:07] Oh so why wouldn't he just go and get the fork.

[52:16] Well I assume you know if that's happening and your spouse usually makes the table you'd be like could like you know I like these forks could you do it and you'd get the fork and then so so i guess he would get the fork or just not bother sometimes depending on how he felt and um would let her know and okay so he felt hurt about it because he she just totally ignored it and doubled down and was like there's no fucking difference even though but you know it's totally, obvious which is which but yeah okay.

[52:49] So she dismissed his preferences.

[52:51] Yes okay.

[52:53] And so the forks is one thing and i know you had a tough time remembering can you remember any others.

[53:02] Now that sounds out as just being so fucking like like uh you know mound out of a molehill well no but it's not about the forks you understand it has nothing.

[53:13] To do with the forks right people are almost never.

[53:15] Fighting about the.

[53:16] Real thing right.

[53:17] Of course so did.

[53:20] She actually swear at him like there's no effing difference about the forks.

[53:23] Yeah yeah yeah.

[53:26] She mom sounds kind of.

[53:27] Not swearing at him like you fucker but like you know swearing about it like to emphasize and being like there's no fucking difference yeah yeah right.

[53:35] Kind of course isn't it.

[53:37] Sure is i mean i mean about something i'm not saying everyone has.

[53:42] To be marie antoinette but you know.

[53:44] Like i've been close as fuck the last day or no you're okay you're a dude.

[53:49] And you know.

[53:51] You're going through a.

[53:52] Lot this isn't about you know and honestly Obviously, excessive swearing is coarse for women in particular.

[53:59] Sure. I don't like it particularly, but I don't have any filter on that at the moment, really.

[54:05] Okay, so how often would your parents get into conflict? Just roughly, like yearly, monthly. How often would your parents get into conflict where your father would have to appease?

[54:19] Maybe twice a year or once or twice a year.

[54:22] Okay, so it's fairly rare. And did they get along well otherwise or yeah.

[54:30] Like not too much turbulence in the relationship otherwise. Yeah. I mean, you know, they don't have a really great, deep relationship like is ideal, but yeah, you know, they're not, um, they're pretty, you know, high mood sort of, you know, generally fairly sort of happy, um, and did you ever see.

[54:50] Did you ever see your father get his way against your mother's wishes?

[54:54] No.

[54:59] And when did you first identify that as a pattern that you had to look out for?

[55:08] After starting to listen to free-domain radio in the day.

[55:12] Oh, like seven years ago. And what did your parents think of your girlfriend slash fiancé slash wife?

[55:25] They don't live near us. They're not good parents in that regard, uh, not involved in relationships, vetting or that sort of thing. Um, but they, they had a casually positive, um, mostly, uh, yeah. Like if you're awesome, sort of positive, you know, vaguely. Yeah.

[55:48] Boy, that's, that's as foggy an answer as I've ever received on this show. Good job. Good job. Like a squid in some with the ink.

[55:55] Cool. I'm, uh, I'm gonna get bingo.

[55:58] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so wait, so they knew this woman for like half a decade or more, right?

[56:07] Yes.

[56:07] And they also knew...

[56:09] No, we really don't spend much time together. With my parents, they don't live near us. Yeah.

[56:17] Balancing Career and Parenthood

[56:17] Not much at all. Like a few hours in that time, maybe.

[56:21] Wait, so in half a decade, they spent only a few hours with your girlfriend?

[56:27] Yeah. And my mother and my girlfriend didn't really get along. That's my family.

[56:39] That's not an answer? I mean, this woman holds your heart in her hands, and do you have siblings?

[56:52] I have one older sister. I'll type how many months older she is.

[56:58] Yeah, you don't have to tell me. Okay, but it's not much. Okay. So this woman holds your heart in her hands, right, and your future, and the future of grandchildren, and the lineage, and the whole thing, right? So how is it possible that over half a decade they spend only a few hours with her?

[57:17] We don't, I don't see my parents all that much. Um, my wife even less. Um, and then your wife even less.

[57:25] Oh, your wife sees your parents and you said that your mom and your wife don't get along.

[57:30] Yeah. My, like, um, my mother can be quite abrasive and it really, uh, like my wife was very on edge about that. So she didn't like to spend much time around my mother.

[57:48] Got it. Okay. And what do you mean by abrasive? Can you give me an example what that means?

[58:00] A word came to mind of being somewhat narcissistic sort of character traits.

[58:05] Oh God, please just give me some actions. these descriptions mean nothing to me I don't know what abrasive means to you I don't know what narcissistic means to you that's why I keep having to ask you for examples just give me some examples.

[58:21] I'm really fogging, Yeah, if you disagree with my mother, she gets nasty and takes it personally and escalates on everything.

[58:38] Can you think of a time when you got your way with your mother?

[58:44] Not against my mother, no.

[58:45] Okay. So why are they in your life? I'm not saying whether they should or shouldn't.

[58:54] But yeah, I'm just curious. some of this stuff a few years back um and they were like oh you know this is so hard and like um, you know if it keeps going on like this like you know just me being honest basically um, you know we i can't keep seeing and stuff and i was like okay that's fine and um then they sort of have been like a lot nicer to me, really. A lot what? But not a lot nicer. And she has been with me a lot more, not getting all whatever and defensive so much occasionally, but like...

[59:33] Okay, so sorry, let me understand this. So you started being more honest...

[59:36] There was improvement is why.

[59:38] Okay, so you started being more honest with your parents a couple of years ago, right?

[59:42] Well, a few years, let's say four or five years, I don't know.

[59:49] Okay, is that the important part?

[59:53] I don't believe it is.

[59:55] Okay, so a number of years ago you started becoming more honest with your parents and they threatened to cut you off?

[1:00:04] Yeah.

[1:00:06] Holy shit.

[1:00:07] But then capitulated and yeah. Yeah.

[1:00:10] Wait, so they capitulated?

[1:00:13] They made the threat and then didn't follow through and capitulated to my needs mall.

[1:00:17] And did you change your behavior?

[1:00:22] No.

[1:00:22] So you still continue to be honest and direct with them?

[1:00:28] I don't have that much of, like, I don't relate to them as much, like a lot, because I don't think they're very deep. But yeah, yes. Yeah.

[1:00:38] Okay. So you were honest and direct with them. They said, we're going to cut you off if you keep doing this. And then you kept doing it and they didn't cut you off. Is that right?

[1:00:50] And made efforts that have been continuous to actually address my concerns. Yes.

[1:00:58] And A, what are your concerns? And B, what have they done to address them? I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to make sure I understand.

[1:01:07] Oh, well, I talked to them about things in my childhood and like... Sorry, it's hard to, at the best of times, dig up all of this and tell it in the most direct way now. But... Yeah, I said about how, like, my priorities were, you know, ignored. Sort of, no, worse than ignored. I got, like, a lot of false sort of choices, and then they just get overridden and, like, just trampled by my parents' will as a kid. And I was like, you need to acknowledge.

[1:01:48] What are false choices?

[1:01:55] I want A, and they offer, well, no, you can have X or Y, and you can have a choice, so it's a false choice sort of.

[1:02:06] Childhood Patterns and Gaslighting

[1:02:07] Or something that's different to that is, so when we were a kid, I was, whatever, let's say 10, and they wanted to move a substantial distance across the world and, for my dad's career and they discussed it all as a family and like we're like we need to make sure that everyone agrees and everything we'll go visit the place first see how you feel about it and whatever and um my view was like i don't want to leave my friends and life here i just don't want to leave and then like you know we did the visit and stuff i was like sure we can visit there and i was like yeah it's a nice place i don't have a problem with the place but i don't want want to leave and then they uh just did anyway and then like gaslit me about it and we're like well no you agreed we talked about this stuff and just totally like gaslit me about how everything went even though i was completely consistent about it the whole time and oh so yeah i confronted them about that and the gaslighting and it was all excuse excuse and like mutually contradictory excuses and stuff and i was just like shooting it down like no you're just bullshitting you just said this like it can't be it's got to be one or the other like and i'm the only person who's been inconsistent in the story like i'm right basically and and they'll just this was a little bit like so oh you know why and like if you keep being so difficult like we won't be able to keep seeing you and yeah so yeah so.

[1:03:31] Did they ever admit fault.

[1:03:32] Yes okay.

[1:03:36] And did they make.

[1:03:37] Apologize but yeah did they apologize and work to make restitution, they did apologize but what restitution can that be like they've improved their behavior but like, i didn't think about the restitution it's like what is restitution for like, trampling over me and doing that when i'm a kid i don't know i can.

[1:04:02] Think of some very clear restitution.

[1:04:08] I'd like to hear suggestions.

[1:04:11] Fetch a fucking wife, Spend more time with your wife Make sure she's the right person for you, Maybe your mom isn't so abrasive And drives your wife away Maybe they come out and spend a weekend end with you guys so that they can give her the once over and do something to help you. I mean, that's just the first thing. There could be any number of other things, but that would be one.

[1:04:45] Yeah.

[1:04:46] Wouldn't that be helpful?

[1:04:52] If they were capable of it, yeah.

[1:04:56] They're not capable of figuring out who might be good for you? What are you talking about? They're your parents.

[1:05:10] I mean, I haven't seen any indications of that. And they don't have the relationship that I would want. I was like, Why, you know, go to someone for advice about a topic on which they have not achieved, you know?

[1:05:30] Well, did they stay married for more than six fucking months?

[1:05:37] Yeah, they're married.

[1:05:38] Okay, so they've been married for decades. So they have more knowledge than you, and they didn't give you that knowledge.

[1:05:48] Yeah.

[1:05:50] Did you ever talk to them about the fact that your mom's kind of a bully and that was a bad example to grow up with?

[1:06:02] No, I criticized the bullying. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not sure if I directly said that was a bad example to grow up with.

[1:06:10] So you criticized your mom bullying you and your dad?

[1:06:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:06:16] And what did she say?

[1:06:30] She evaded it, but then actually did sort of say, I'm sorry, and has been better about it, at least with me. I think with my dad, but I don't spend a lot of time with them.

[1:06:50] All right so that was to some degree resolved but they never made any restitution right, correct they never said gee you know you're right you know if you find this a bit of a bully when you were growing up we should really sit down and talk about your girlfriend to make sure that you haven't fallen into the same trap because you know these patterns can kind of can repeat right, yeah god like that would be restitution right, They would say, well, if you grew up with sort of a weak dad and kind of an aggressive mother, then we have to make sure that this isn't repeating with your girlfriend, right? That would be the next reasonable thing to do, right?

[1:07:40] Yeah.

[1:07:41] Now, did your parents know that you wanted to get married and not just move in together with your girlfriend?

[1:07:48] No, I don't think I discussed that with them.

[1:07:52] Really so you moved in with your girlfriend and never told your parents that this was kind of an ultimatum on her part because she wouldn't get married i.

[1:08:02] Did not tell them that no did.

[1:08:04] You ever tell your parents that i'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have i'm just curious did you ever tell your parents that your girlfriend refused to marry you.

[1:08:14] No i never told anyone.

[1:08:16] Did you tell your parents that your girlfriend refused to have children and is still maybe just was talking about maybe one and then we'll see.

[1:08:26] Uh yeah i said that was her view and i was like well you know so i'll start with that yeah did.

[1:08:33] They ever ask you why you were living for half a decade with a woman and not marrying her no so what the hell I mean what are you what are you talking about I don't understand what's the point of any of this, I mean you're not talking about anything important that's going on in your life they're not offering you any wisdom or protection or insights or like what is the point of any of this, yeah okay let's go back to when you were a kid when you were a kid Do you remember your parents giving you wisdom that you found helpful in dealing with life's challenges?

[1:09:15] No.

[1:09:16] Ever?

[1:09:20] Not particularly. I mean, I guess it might have been like when I was a little kid, like this is how a lid works. No, no, no.

[1:09:26] I mean, not practical crap. I mean, so your parents didn't give you any parenting? No.

[1:09:36] Pretty much, I mean, yeah.

[1:09:38] I mean, anybody can just feed you and wipe your ass, right? But it's the sort of knowledge of you and the wisdom that is provided by parents. That's parenting, right?

[1:09:48] Very, very little of that, yeah.

[1:09:50] No, you said none.

[1:09:52] Yeah, pretty much none.

[1:09:54] Okay, so maybe there's a couple, but it's as close to zero. Because normally, if you parent it well...

[1:10:00] Well, if you're a fucking parent, it's as close to zero as you could possibly be.

[1:10:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because normally parents should give you wisdom that you can take into adulthood, right?

[1:10:19] Yeah yeah that should be the case.

[1:10:23] Lack of Parental Guidance

[1:10:23] All right drop my headset, um are they boomers yes they are okay so that's it right boomers didn't parent, they didn't fucking parent you know i wish i had an example but i don't no boomers boomers they had to have you know the fucking television broadcaster needed to come on at 10 o'clock at night. And do you know what they said? It's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your children are? Boomers didn't parent. They didn't fucking parent at all. It's insane. I mean, not only did they abort a third of the Gen Xs, but they didn't parent. There's no parenting. Almost with boomers.

[1:11:08] Yeah.

[1:11:09] So now you've got to go out and invent the wheel. Yourself, now. So you were talking about...

[1:11:13] I didn't have a fucking clue until until I came across your show, really. Right, right, right. Yeah.

[1:11:21] Right. Now, you're talking about false dichotomies, right? Oh, sorry, false choices, you said, right? So you'd want to do A, and they'd say you can choose between B and C, right?

[1:11:32] Yeah.

[1:11:33] So you say, I want to get, and this is the pattern, right? So you say to your girlfriend, I want to get married, and she says, we can live together or we can break up. And your...

[1:11:48] Well, she didn't say that, but yeah, I get you.

[1:11:51] Sorry.

[1:11:53] Like, it's my...

[1:11:54] I said earlier, I'm sorry, I said earlier, what would be the consequences if you held to get married? And what did you say? We'd break up.

[1:12:03] I think it would have, yeah.

[1:12:05] Okay, so your girlfriend says, maybe not explicitly, like we're adults here, we don't have to have everything spelled out, right? Yeah. So you say, I want to get... Your girlfriend says, I want to live together, and you say, we have to get married, and she says, live together or break up.

[1:12:17] False Choices and Relationship Dynamics

[1:12:17] So the whole marriage thing goes out the window. It's live together or break up, and that's the false choices that your parents gave you, right?

[1:12:23] Fuck. Yeah, that's it.

[1:12:27] So when someone... I didn't see that. Yeah, so when you have a preference, this is the price of the parenting, right? Or the non-parenting. So when you have a preference and other people say, I'm going to ignore your preference, I'm going to give you two other alternatives, you're like, okay, well, I guess my preference doesn't exist and I can only choose between these two other things. I don't want to break up with the girl, so I guess we'll live together.

[1:12:47] That's it.

[1:12:48] Right. Did you want your wife to move away for five days of the week?

[1:13:01] No, but it makes sense for career. So I was like, well, if you're going to be the career person, let's, yeah, we'll prioritize that. It's just for a few months at most.

[1:13:14] Oh, because in a couple of months, your lease is up and you can move there?

[1:13:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:13:19] How does your girlfriend...

[1:13:20] I mean, we weren't even necessarily going to wait for the lease to be up. It's just like, well, a little bit more money, like not even that much of a deal. As soon as we can get a place, I'm moving. Like, yeah.

[1:13:32] Sorry a little bit more money what do you mean.

[1:13:33] Oh like it would cost a little bit more money just to hold the lease for a couple months whatever who cares like i'll find a we'll find a place um that works for us for her work and uh and we'd move in like we'd move and how does your possible how does.

[1:13:48] Your i'm sorry and how long has your wife been doing this travel thing.

[1:13:53] Ah like a month a.

[1:13:55] Month okay and how does she get along with her own parents.

[1:14:03] Family Relationships

[1:14:03] She has a shallow relationship with her dad which she overvalues and doesn't get along well with her mom because she was pretty abusive when she was young like as a teenager at least her mother was, yeah in what way, One time she was having a fight with her. I don't remember the details, but I remember they were having a bit of a fight and yelling and whatever. Obviously not then my wife, but my wife person screamed. I don't know if she was 13 or whatever, but like, you know, I hate you because she wasn't getting her way, I guess.

[1:14:47] Sorry, my mother screamed I hate you.

[1:14:49] No, no. Oh, your wife screamed at her mother. And then the mother screamed back, like, I fucking hate you too, or something like that.

[1:14:57] Oh my god, man.

[1:15:00] Really fucked up shit.

[1:15:01] But why almost 20 years later is she still living with them? Like she was in her late 20s, she's living with her parents, right?

[1:15:11] Yeah, well, she doesn't really relate to her parents. and then thought, not that he was very good in my estimation, but at least her father was something for her and she's over-attached to him. Is what I'd make of it. He was the crumbs that she had to survive on, I guess.

[1:15:36] Okay, and your mother-in-law and your wife, obviously I hope the relationship improved and them screaming I hate you with each other and how is it now.

[1:15:49] I think it just died back they don't really discuss things you know they can, be you know in the same proximity but like no real talk do you like your in-laws no so.

[1:16:08] Why are they in your life.

[1:16:16] Because she's very attached to her dad, and I went along with it.

[1:16:19] Okay, so why are you going along with it? Like, where have you taken leadership in this relationship? And this, I know this relationship is torched, but in general, like for the next round, right? Like, where have you taken leadership? You say, look, this father is like overtached, the mother is abusive and now really, really distant. I don't like them. Sorry, they hurt you. They hurt you, my wife. And because they hurt you, I don't like them.

[1:16:46] Yeah, I haven't taken.

[1:16:47] I don't want to spend time with them. They hurt you and they've never apologized. Sorry, go ahead.

[1:16:52] Yeah. I've said that to her, but like, and I was like, but you know, it's your decision and yeah.

[1:17:00] Okay, so why, what happens if you say like, I don't like them and I don't want them to be part of this family unless they make apologies and restitution and like, oh, because then she could turn and say, well, I don't like your parents either, right?

[1:17:16] That's okay if she didn't she does like my father but.

[1:17:19] She doesn't like your mother right correct the abrasive thing right yeah, so but your mother wasn't screaming i hate you at you right no okay so you know this mother and the father as well they're a team as we know right there's not one better than the other the parents did significant i.

[1:17:46] Tried to birch but she just wouldn't hear criticism about her dad like yeah sorry you were saying.

[1:17:53] Sorry you you say she wouldn't hear criticism about her dad, like that's the end of it. That's the part I'm trying to get to, the lion heart, the spine. You're like, well, I tried to broach it with her, but she just wouldn't accept any criticism of her father. Okay. When roughly did, like, was it in the first year or two years or whatever you broached some, I guess you're listening to this show, talking with your your own parents uh four or five years ago uh being more honest and direct so when did you first notice and talk to her about some deficiencies in her family probably.

[1:18:31] After i dealt with some things with my family.

[1:18:34] Okay so four years ago or something like that right maybe um yeah okay so then you go to her and you say you know i have some issues with your family and what does she say.

[1:18:48] Yeah, like, totally would talk about it with her mother. And then like, it was like, but yeah, your dad was like, kind of, you know, there. And she's like, he was all I had. And like, and if I kept sort of pointing out sort of the issues, she'd be like, don't, you know, talk bad about my dad.

[1:19:05] Okay, so let's role play this. Let's role play this.

[1:19:08] And shut it down.

[1:19:09] Yeah, no, let's.

[1:19:09] I'm done.

[1:19:10] Hang on. Let's role play this. Okay. So I say, listen. You just play your wife, right? So I say, listen, your dad had some issues, right? He was there. He should have intervened. He should have reduced the bullying that your mother did. He should never have accepted the screaming at you. He needed to step up and be more protective of you as a child.

[1:19:33] He did. He was there for me. He talked to my mother and said, like, you know, that's not on. That's not going to help. Like. He was the only one who was there for me.

[1:19:46] Well but you were still getting yelled at right and there was still problems with your mother and i don't think he's ever stepped up like you and your mom seemed super distant and i don't know that he's ever stepped up and said listen ladies we gotta we gotta sort this out like this is weird distance in the family like he doesn't seem to me to be particularly um assertive in in solving family problems i mean you'd like to be closer to your mom you don't know how to do it maybe He was the.

[1:20:13] Only support I had.

[1:20:17] Well, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about issues that could have been better. Why was he the only support you had? Because he couldn't get your mom to be more reasonable. And he chose her and he chose to have children with her. He knew what she was like. And then you kind of took a lot of the brunt, right? So my question is, why was he the only person who gave you any support? Why didn't he work harder to make your mom more reasonable?

[1:20:49] How can she do that? She's not, that's not who she is. Like, how could you blame him for that? Like, he did, he did support me.

[1:21:01] Okay, let me ask you this. Do you think that your father knew that your mother had a vicious temper when he was dating her and marrying her and before he decided to give children to her?

[1:21:14] No like we didn't run into those issues until like we were in high school i was close with my mother it was nice when i was a kid.

[1:21:25] Okay so when your mother had this terrible temper you know that these things are actually quite easy to solve right i mean you can go to a 10-week it.

[1:21:34] Was the alcohol like she just drank too much and And then like blew up.

[1:21:39] Oh, and was your, sorry, just remind me, did your mother work?

[1:21:44] Yeah.

[1:21:45] Okay. So why wouldn't your father get her into rehab and get her into an anger management program and, and do things that would help in the family?

[1:21:59] He did what he could to support me and like prevent her from like continuing like that. But, like, you know, she wasn't going to do that.

[1:22:10] Well, what do you mean she wasn't going to do that? How do you know? Did you ever see your father say, listen, you absolutely can't drink. You're a mother. You can't be an alcoholic. You can't be screaming at your kids. This is absolutely unacceptable. I won't have it. You need to get to rehab. You need to get to Angerman. He did that.

[1:22:27] She just didn't need to go to rehab because he did. He said, you can't do that. Yeah.

[1:22:36] And what it's been better oh so she quit drinking.

[1:22:45] Nobody's discouraged it and like you know it's not as big of a problem now.

[1:22:50] Okay, do you have any criticisms of your father or was he pretty much perfect.

[1:23:05] I don't have anything to criticize him about.

[1:23:08] Now, you do understand that you criticize me, right?

[1:23:14] What are you talking about?

[1:23:15] Well, you have criticisms of me, right?

[1:23:19] Yeah, of course, everyone does.

[1:23:22] Okay.

[1:23:23] Not with you, but like.

[1:23:24] You know, everyone has criticisms. So, you understand that this is messed up, almost beyond words. That you have no criticisms of your father, but you have lots of criticisms of me.

[1:23:37] Why.

[1:23:37] Because your loyalty should be to me.

[1:23:42] He's my father like i'm your husband but why are you trying to like why are you trying to like cut me off from everyone who else who supports me you're not the only thing in my life no.

[1:23:57] Listen hey i'm fine if you want to have criticisms of me that's fine it means that you can criticize people you voluntarily chose, right? You chose me. So you have criticisms of me. You voluntarily chose me. You have no criticisms of your father. You never chose him as a father. It's just who we're born into. And he did marry a woman who was terrifically verbally abusive to her children at times and a drunk. So of the two of us, Let me ask you this. Have I ever screamed at you that I hate you? Or allowed anybody else to do that? No. Do I have a really great friend who lives with us who's a drinker? I do not. Do I drink myself? I do not. so you have no criticisms of your father who you didn't choose and who married a woman who verbally abused you and he enabled her drinking do you know how you don't enable someone's drinking you say get to rehab or we're divorcing because I will not have this around my children, what was he meant to do.

[1:25:01] Break up the harm.

[1:25:02] Yes exactly exactly.

[1:25:05] How is that going to help him it.

[1:25:07] Gets her to rehab it gets her to anger management, that's what you do I just don't.

[1:25:15] Know if you can know that I didn't want to break up the home I didn't want to like.

[1:25:23] No no the point is not to break up the home do you know what an intervention is do you know what that is have you ever heard of that term, yeah okay so you know what an intervention is an intervention is you have to go and get help or our relationship is over and is that designed to break up the relationship relationship.

[1:25:43] Maybe.

[1:25:44] No. If you want to break up the relationship, you just break up the relationship. The point of an intervention is to say, this has become unacceptable. You have to go to rehab. And if you don't go to rehab, our relationship is over. The purpose is not to break up the relationship. The purpose is to get the person into rehab, right?

[1:26:03] But that's not a good choice. He didn't want the relationship to be over.

[1:26:07] No, you're not listening. What I'm saying is that you make these ultimatums to get the person into rehab. it's not to end the relationship. And most people, where there's an intervention.

[1:26:19] They get help. But it would have ended the relationship.

[1:26:21] I'm sorry?

[1:26:23] But it would have ended the relationship, or it might have.

[1:26:26] Well, okay, let me ask you this then. Did your father ever consult with a psychologist or a psychiatrist on how to handle his verbally abusive drunk wife? Did he ever go to family counseling? Did he ever go to couples counseling? Did he ever go to therapy himself to work? Because, you know, there are experts. Who know how to deal with these things? You know, if your wife has a toothache, you don't just sit her at home and give her some aspirin. You take it to an expert, right?

[1:26:51] Not that I know of.

[1:26:53] Okay, so he didn't consult any experts on how to deal with this huge problem, right? Okay, did your mother drink when she was younger?

[1:27:05] Yeah.

[1:27:05] Okay, so did your father decide to have children with a woman who was a drunk?

[1:27:11] I don't know if it was a problem then.

[1:27:13] Okay, but she drank, right?

[1:27:17] I guess. I don't know if she was a drinker and a problem.

[1:27:22] Marriage Compromises

[1:27:23] Are you saying that your mother had no negative characteristics before you became a teenager?

[1:27:32] I think it was hard on her to move to this country and then it was a problem and the drinking didn't help.

[1:27:40] Okay, so she handled the move with drinking, is that right?

[1:27:51] Well, she tried to deal with it by drinking, I guess. I don't know. She lent on drinking.

[1:27:57] Okay, so she became verbally abusive, horribly, and she drank to excess, right?

[1:28:08] Sometimes.

[1:28:09] Did she ever drive with you or even alone while intoxicated?

[1:28:16] No.

[1:28:17] All right. So your father didn't consult with any experts. He didn't try and get any help. And do you know if he ever did say or demand that she go to rehab and or anger management courses?

[1:28:33] No, but like, that's not the only thing. He did try to like get in the way, prevent her and well, discouraged drinking. He supported me. He did get me professional help when I was struggling in high school. Like he did so much.

[1:28:46] He did like everything for me. Oh, that's great news. I'm sorry. I appreciate you. I'm so sorry. I'd forgotten about that. That's fantastic. So your father knew that professional help was important when someone was struggling. So he must have tried to get that for your mother.

[1:29:03] I don't know about any of that. She never did.

[1:29:08] Well, did you ever hear anything? I mean, I assume that would have been quite a conflict. You probably would have heard about it. Did you? Because, you know, your father says, listen, daughter, you've got to go to therapy because, right, blah, blah, blah. but he never demanded that of his wife that you know of?

[1:29:26] I don't know of it, no.

[1:29:28] Okay. Do you think that he should have pushed for her to get help with her drinking and rage issues?

[1:29:41] He did what he could. I don't know why.

[1:29:43] No, you're not answering the question.

[1:29:44] What's the point of this?

[1:29:45] No, you don't.

[1:29:46] What's the point of this? Why do you have to have such an issue with my dad? I have a relationship that I enjoy with my dad. He's the only person who supported me in my life when I was younger. Why? I'm done. I don't want to talk about this.

[1:30:03] Well, that's too bad because I do. And we have to respect each other's wishes, right?

[1:30:08] Well, I'm not going to. I'm done. I can't talk about this right now. And she would leave. She would leave there.

[1:30:14] Okay, then I would leave her. Yeah, because I can't be with people who just storm out of conversations. That's not a relationship. Because she's asking you to overcome your objection to living together rather than being married, right? If you're willing to do that, then she at least has to. If you're willing to compromise on, you know, a foundational practical and moral consideration, then she can stay in an uncomfortable conversation, right? And what I would say to her if she stayed is I would say, look, the reason why this is a problem is that you were still living at home in your late 20s. That's not healthy. You wouldn't commit to marry me, but rather, in a sense, threatened to break up with me if you didn't get your way. That's kind of aggressive. And I regret having said yes to that, but that's It's not great. You didn't end up taking the marriage very seriously. You didn't end up taking the living together very seriously because you wouldn't get married.

[1:31:12] I did take it seriously is what her objection would be as well.

[1:31:16] Well, no, because I wanted to get married. I wanted to get married. You wanted to live together. How long did we live together without getting married?

[1:31:26] I don't know. Maybe, what was it? Six years? Seven years?

[1:31:33] All right, so six or seven years, we lived together without getting married. Do you think that's what I wanted?

[1:31:45] I just fogged on that. I don't know what she would say.

[1:31:48] No, she couldn't say it was what you wanted because you kept trying to get her to marry you, right?

[1:31:54] I somehow don't think she would... I think she'd be evasive about that.

[1:32:01] Well, no, but she couldn't... I mean, she couldn't deny that you wanted to marry her, right?

[1:32:08] No.

[1:32:09] Okay, so I would say the problem is that I compromised thinking we could live together for a year or two and then get married. And then I kept wanting to get married and you kept saying no. I want a lot of kids. What if you told me? I've been open that I want a lot of kids. And what if you told me? One maybe, then we'll see, right? Well, that's my choice. Honey, tell me.

[1:32:31] I don't know. I want one kid, but it's difficult. So how can I know that ahead of time?

[1:32:38] But here's the point can you think of a time where you've compromised and given me what i want even if it goes against what you want i could think of half a dozen to a dozen times that i've done that to my and i'm not saying that was a good thing i'm just saying that that's happened can you think of a time of.

[1:32:56] Course we went in that house where the toilet was so out of the way and it was because you wanted the garden like that was for you.

[1:33:05] Yes, but you didn't care about it that much, Yeah.

[1:33:11] I did I didn't realize how bad it was Are you saying Okay.

[1:33:14] Come on Listen, honey Let's get our heads screwed on straight here Are you trying to tell me That not marrying me for six years Is equivalent to a couple of extra steps to the toilet?

[1:33:28] Well, no But it's not like I never do anything No.

[1:33:31] But you brought that up as something equivalent or something that's a response. Give me a big thing where you've compromised. Let's give a take.

[1:33:39] I do things for you all the time.

[1:33:42] A big thing where you compromise and do what I want, which you don't want to do.

[1:33:57] I don't know.

[1:33:58] Right. So you can't think of any. I can think of at least half a dozen to a dozen of the other way. Right now, I'm not saying this makes you bad or me good because it's been.

[1:34:07] What do you mean half a dozen to a dozen? We were just talking about like one thing. And no, I mentioned I mentioned time to get married.

[1:34:13] I mentioned three things. Do you remember what they are?

[1:34:17] No, we're just talking about like that. We didn't get married a little sooner.

[1:34:23] A little sooner. Six fucking years, honey. What are you talking about a little sooner?

[1:34:33] What's the big deal?

[1:34:35] See, now that's interesting, right? That's very interesting to me. I'm very passionate about something and feel very strongly about it. And for you, it's like, what's the big deal?

[1:34:44] But what's the difference? It's just like marriage. We were practically married and living together anyway.

[1:34:49] Well, you know the argument about that. Well, if it's no difference, then let's just get married.

[1:34:55] I wasn't ready to get married.

[1:34:58] That doesn't mean anything, that's just a meaningless statement the whole point of compromise in a relationship is sometimes you do what the other person wants even if you don't want to because you care about that person and want them to be happy, and your happiness comes from giving the other person what they want right, Yeah.

[1:35:24] And I do lots of things for you.

[1:35:27] Well, I just asked you for examples, and all you could think of was the toilet.

[1:35:37] So, what? I can't think of everything now. Like, I do lots of things for you all the time.

[1:35:44] Okay, give me a big example. Not a little thing, but a big thing. What's the last time that you did something for me?

[1:35:51] Well, I do lots of little things. Doesn't that count? Like I do lots of little things for you constantly.

[1:35:56] Okay, give me an example of something that you do for me that you don't want to do.

[1:36:06] Well, you're more into plants. I didn't want to go to... Well, it was for you that I go to the garden show and all that sort of thing. It's more your interest than mine.

[1:36:20] Okay, so garden show. You come to the garden show when you don't want to go, right? Because you want to make me happy.

[1:36:30] Well, I don't want to make it out like I'm a martyr or anything, but I do lots of things for you that are mostly for you.

[1:36:36] Okay it's garden show what else.

[1:36:42] I don't know like i got those pajamas for you the other day i buy things for you get you no no but that doesn't cost you anything what do you mean of course everything costs like no i don't mean money i'm not talking about money for you at the time no.

[1:36:59] No i'm talking about something like you You buying me pajamas is not a self-sacrifice, right? Like, when I said I want to get married and you said, basically, we live together or we break up.

[1:37:10] What do you mean it's not a self-sacrifice? I'm very thoughtful. I do lots of nice things for you.

[1:37:14] But it's not a self-sacrifice. Like, you buying me pajamas doesn't come at the cost of your own values. Me living together with you rather than getting married came at the cost of my own values.

[1:37:25] What does that even mean?

[1:37:26] I told you at the time, I want to get married, not live together. Yeah.

[1:37:31] Yeah, and we disagreed and got married later. So you got what you wanted.

[1:37:37] No, I didn't get what I wanted, because I wanted to get married, not live together.

[1:37:42] And we've done both.

[1:37:46] But it took six years. I didn't want that. That's why I kept asking you to marry me.

[1:37:52] So what, I need to do everything for you when you want it?

[1:37:58] Well no because if you believed that we would have been married six years ago and we'd have five children.

[1:38:08] Yeah, so that's ridiculous. That's not a compromise. That's not what I want. It shouldn't just be all about you.

[1:38:17] Well, when is it about me, other than the garden show and the toilet?

[1:38:24] My whole life I married you.

[1:38:29] Are you saying that that was a sacrifice, that you didn't want to do it?

[1:38:35] No, but...

[1:38:36] Okay, so we... I don't know if this is complicated. I don't know, honey. Honey, I don't know if this is complicated.

[1:38:41] Hang on.

[1:38:42] Hang on. Hang on.

[1:38:43] Marrying you, how can you criticize me about this?

[1:38:46] Hang on. The category we're talking about are things that you compromise because they make me happy, but it's not what you want to do.

[1:38:55] Communication Struggles

[1:38:56] So I hope the marriage doesn't fall into that category because then we just have to get divorced right now. Right? So I can think of a bunch of things, right? I mean, obviously, the big three, there's more, but the big three are living together and then also not getting married for six years. I wanted to get it done much sooner. And we're now, you know, you're 36 or whatever, and we're only talking about maybe one kid. I want a lot of kids. Right? And this is not, I'm not saying I've done a big, wonderful thing here. It's actually been bad for us both in a lot of ways. But I think I was...

[1:39:29] Giving someone how many kids they need, it's not like you have to have the child. I have to do that like and it's my choice like I want to have a child I don't know I've never had a child before I want to have one and yeah we'll see like how can I know that ahead of time.

[1:39:44] How can you see you don't know if you want to have kids right.

[1:39:51] Yeah I want to have a child but I don't know if I want to have more than one child.

[1:39:57] Because you don't know if you'll enjoy motherhood, No So you probably shouldn't have a child If you don't know if you're going to enjoy motherhood, Because you have a child for the rest of your life You'll have a child for the.

[1:40:13] Next 50 years What do you mean? I'll love my child What are you talking about?

[1:40:17] So you'll love your child So then why wouldn't you want more children to love?

[1:40:24] Well, it's difficult.

[1:40:26] No, you just said you love your child.

[1:40:28] It's not difficult at all.

[1:40:29] You just said you love your child.

[1:40:32] Yes.

[1:40:33] So it's not difficult at all?

[1:40:36] No, because then I want to do what's best for them. And it's harder to have more kids.

[1:40:41] What do you mean it's harder to have more kids?

[1:40:42] If I love my child, it might be best that they don't have other siblings.

[1:40:47] No, it's generally better for children to have siblings.

[1:40:51] Oh, not for me. me, I don't really like my brother.

[1:40:57] Well, but the problem is we can't resolve any of the issues with your family because you won't criticize your father at least, right?

[1:41:07] Yeah, look, I told you I'm sick of talking about my father.

[1:41:11] Right. So here's an example of something that's really important to me that comes at a bit of a cost for you. And what are you doing? Are you making the sacrifice? No. No, because you don't.

[1:41:23] You keep bothering me about this.

[1:41:24] No, I need to talk about it.

[1:41:26] You keep bringing up the problem.

[1:41:27] How is that helpful?

[1:41:28] No, it's my father.

[1:41:30] I need to talk about it. So you put on your big girl panties, you sit down like an adult, and talk about it with me, because I need to talk about it. I'm sorry that it makes you uncomfortable, but I need to talk about it with you. So you grow up and you talk about it with me.

[1:41:49] I don't want to hear about it.

[1:41:51] No, it doesn't matter what you need. It matters what I need to talk about it Oh.

[1:41:55] So now it doesn't matter what I need.

[1:41:58] Right in the same way It didn't matter if that's gonna be the conversation and the same way That it didn't matter to you that I wanted to get married and not live together and I compromised on that So you compromised on this so you're not selfish, Oh.

[1:42:14] So why is it me selfish in this.

[1:42:17] Because I want to talk about your father I want something too.

[1:42:19] I don't want to talk about it.

[1:42:21] Right And I.

[1:42:22] Don't have to talk about it If I don't want to talk about it.

[1:42:24] You absolutely don't You absolutely don't have to talk about it I'm not going to force you to, I'm just saying that If it's one way street This is a terrible relationship for me In other words If I sacrifice for you My comfort And my standards To make you happy But you don't sacrifice to me It's exploitation And you're just selfish You're kind of like your mom No No.

[1:42:44] There's one thing that I'm sick of you bothering me about.

[1:42:48] We talked about your father for about 10 minutes. 10 minutes.

[1:42:57] Yeah, and that was enough.

[1:42:59] I put off marriage for six fucking years, and you can't talk for more than 10 minutes. I was uncomfortable only living together. I put up with that for six years, and you can't do more than 10 minutes of something I need. Do you see how unbalanced that is? How selfish that is?

[1:43:20] What do you mean? Like, what difference does it make?

[1:43:24] Like, married, not married? Okay, let me ask you this. Do you understand that there's a difference between six years and ten minutes?

[1:43:33] Well, don't be stupid. Why are we going around in circles like this?

[1:43:36] No, no, just answer the question. Do you understand that that's different, right? So if I put up with something that I didn't want to...

[1:43:41] Yes, of course it's different.

[1:43:43] Excellent. Okay, good. So if I put up with something that I didn't want to put up with, which was not being married for six years... And you can't do something that's uncomfortable for you for 10 minutes. Well, more than 10 minutes, that's not fair, right?

[1:43:59] That's not the same thing. We got married.

[1:44:03] Right. After six years.

[1:44:04] I gave you what you wanted.

[1:44:05] After six years.

[1:44:06] Like, I just didn't do it exactly when you wanted it.

[1:44:09] No, come on. It's not exactly. It's after six years. Okay. So after six years, I finally got what I wanted, and you can't handle 10 minutes. I was uncomfortable for six years.

[1:44:19] And you can't be happy about getting what you want. Why are we fighting about when you got what you wanted?

[1:44:23] So by this logic, by this exact logic, honey, by this exact logic, I get six years to talk about your dad.

[1:44:30] Unequal Compromise Assessment

[1:44:30] And after that, I'll stop talking about your dad and you'll get what you want. Because I put up with not being married for six years, which was not what I wanted. So you, after six years, by this logic, after six years, I'll stop talking about your dad and you'll get what you want. It's exactly the same, right?

[1:44:45] You're being so obtuse and it's not the same thing.

[1:44:47] No, it is. It is the same thing. I was uncomfortable. You got what you wanted in six years.

[1:44:53] No, we just didn't have a piece of paper. That's not the same thing as bothering me about this.

[1:44:58] No, it bothered me.

[1:45:00] I don't appreciate it.

[1:45:01] No, it bothered me. I told you that repeatedly, and you knew that. It bothered me.

[1:45:09] And I gave you what you wanted.

[1:45:11] After six years?

[1:45:14] Yeah.

[1:45:14] Okay, so you can't do ten minutes for me, but I do six years.

[1:45:17] You're getting what you want. Why do I give you anything if I give you what you want, and then you're going to be upset about me?

[1:45:23] Okay, so I give you six years, you give me ten minutes. I can't win.

[1:45:26] You're just attacking me for what I've done right now.

[1:45:28] So I give you six years, you can't even give me ten minutes, and you consider that equal?

[1:45:36] It's not the same thing. And now you're bothering me about this.

[1:45:41] Okay, so I would just...

[1:45:42] Why?

[1:45:42] It's not an issue.

[1:45:43] It's not the same thing.

[1:45:43] Sorry, just to break the role play, you're doing a fantastic job. I would absolutely not continue this conversation with this person. They're never going to listen. They have no capacity to self-reflection. They're never going to listen. They don't understand basic logic, or at least they pretend not to. Incredibly selfish, narcissistic almost. I use that in an amateur sense, of course. But that's just absolutely impossible to talk to. And zero empathy, zero capacity to put herself in someone else's shoes. So you heard the logic.

[1:46:21] Oh, she has capacity for that. But when she really is empathetic about something, like on something that she really, yeah, yeah.

[1:46:27] What? I don't know what that means.

[1:46:36] Yeah, like on something where she's not willing to go, yeah. Yeah, that's what it's like.

[1:46:42] But that's what empathy is, when you don't want to do something, right?

[1:46:47] Yeah.

[1:46:48] Okay, so is this how your girlfriend talks?

[1:46:53] In that sort of argument, yeah. I was trying to emulate it a bit. Obviously, it's not the right tone.

[1:47:01] Why on earth would you be with her? What's the plus? I mean, she's horrible in how you're portraying. and I'm sure you're accurate, right? But this is just monstrous.

[1:47:13] Only a few things like that is what I was like.

[1:47:15] No, but that's why you appease.

[1:47:19] Yeah. Right?

[1:47:21] I tried standing up to her. Exactly. And what happened? Gaslight minimizing, fogging, reversal, pretending comprehension, jumping out of the conversation, insults, right? I mean, it's absolutely impossible possible to have any kind of negotiation with someone like that.

[1:47:44] Yeah, that's how it was in those things, I suppose.

[1:47:47] So why? Why would you put yourself through that?

[1:48:06] I guess that's the best I could ever get previously.

[1:48:10] I understand that, but why? Why is that the best you could ever get?

[1:48:24] I don't know. Maybe just because I accepted it.

[1:48:26] Well, but that's circular.

[1:48:29] I know.

[1:48:30] That's just another way of saying that's the best I could get. I accepted it. But why? Why? Because she's the kind of person, first of all, I'm not a very hot-tempered person, but that was about as grating, irritating, and annoying a conversation as I've had in years. Like she's, that's insufferable behavior on her part. I mean, you had to get angry from time to time. Or did you just avoid the anger by appeasing?

[1:49:08] Yeah, or putting it off for now and, like, you know, I'd rationalize it as being like, oh, well, she'll cool down and, like, I guess she's not ready to address that yet, but we'll work on it and, you know, just, yes, appeasing, sort of.

[1:49:22] She's very hedonistic, right? She operates on the pleasure principle, and if something's uncomfortable, it must be bad, right? And I absolutely would not in a million years accept a woman who had criticisms of me but only praise for her father because that means she's far more loyal to her father than she is to me, and that's just bizarre. That's like the Oedipus complex or something. That's weird at a very foundational level. Because her father's perfect, which means all of his imperfections have to slide onto someone else, right and that's going to be you i.

[1:49:59] Don't know why i'm laughing but yeah no.

[1:50:03] Relationship Reflections

[1:50:03] But you know what i mean right oh god yeah like if she says my my father's perfect it's great okay so we have kids i'll be a father so now i'm perfect so you can't criticize me right so you see you see how it worked your her father could marry a drunk sit by while she verbally abuses the kids not assert himself self at all and that's totally fine but you ask for a few minutes of uncomfortable conversation and you're just a terrible person that's mental like the the the moral priorities there are completely deranged does that make sense yeah having your wife drunk and screaming at your kids totally fine he's just doing the best he can nothing to admire no criticisms right, you raising a couple of rational questions you're just terrible, like that that's Marley and it's Marley insane, yeah, So what have you been, like, how many of these kinds of conversations have you had over the course of your relationship, sort of six or seven years?

[1:51:26] Usually, like, doesn't drag on for a very long time, but I don't know.

[1:51:29] Well, that's because you fold, right?

[1:51:31] Say it doesn't.

[1:51:32] It doesn't. So like two a year kind of thing.

[1:51:36] And.

[1:51:36] Do you feel that if you had continued that it would have gotten nowhere because it did get nowhere right.

[1:51:53] I can't see it like because but i don't know it's all fucked up so i guess it would have but like just recently I was like okay well you know, sorting out some more career stability and like progress and then like yeah we'll start having children and so, that's sort of the goals I was working towards in a short time span how.

[1:52:17] Would your kids have negotiated with her.

[1:52:21] Fuck yeah.

[1:52:24] It's a serious question, I mean, if you as an adult can't negotiate with her at all, how is a three-year-old supposed to do it, or a five-year-old, or a ten-year-old? Like, you don't have the right to put your kids in that situation, do you?

[1:52:54] No. God, I feel like such an idiot amalgamation fuck-up of all the stupid shit I've ever heard.

[1:53:08] No, no, but that's fantastic news. This is as great a news as could be conceived of in this shit situation. I'm not trying to say be happy, but I'm saying this is about the greatest news you can get at the moment.

[1:53:29] Yeah I needed to see it.

[1:53:31] Why is it the greatest news.

[1:53:44] Well because I can fix that for next time hopefully.

[1:53:48] No well sure but why why is it now good news great news the best news.

[1:54:00] That's not clicking for me.

[1:54:02] Bullet fucking dodged, brother.

[1:54:06] Oh, it doesn't feel that way.

[1:54:08] Well, that's because you're not getting it yet.

[1:54:10] It's like, oh, I shouldn't have put your hand in the fucking garbage disposal.

[1:54:15] It's not the bullet for you. It's not the bullet for you. Who's the bullet? Dodger here.

[1:54:20] For the children.

[1:54:21] The children. The children.

[1:54:24] Yeah.

[1:54:27] Because your children, I mean, can you imagine? you're folding and cucking and apologizing and wringing your hands and trailing after this witch like a puppy dog what does your son yeah look at you and say horrible.

[1:54:39] Repeat of my fucking parents yeah.

[1:54:42] Right except your mom i mean is your mom like this too in the way that this woman was in the role play not really okay so she's worse but.

[1:54:53] But actually yeah worse in some ways i guess.

[1:54:57] I mean i don't know it was worse wasn't like yeah.

[1:55:00] In some ways i'll say.

[1:55:01] Okay yeah so it's not like your parents it's worse than your parents yeah, so then you either get ground down into nothing and your children kind of hold you in contempt which is a horrible feeling i imagine you either get ground down to nothing, or, you try to stand up for yourself when she's got the entire fucking legal might of the government behind her. And then what happens?

[1:55:39] Oh. Nothing good for the kids.

[1:55:42] Or you.

[1:55:45] Sure.

[1:55:49] I mean, you'll be living in a car, praying for death.

[1:56:00] Don't know why, because it's like kind of shitty and white naughty, but I was like, maybe she fucked up everything to try to save me from that. It just came to me, but like, well, I don't know, obviously, too much sympathy.

[1:56:11] No, listen, whatever saves you from this fate is to be blessed. So my guess is it doesn't have much to do with you. My guess is she really doesn't want to be a mom. And so she goes off the pill. Do you know how long this affair has been going on?

[1:56:36] I really don't know. It could be all of the time emotionally. It could be since like January physically in this instance, at least possibly with other times when he was here in the past. I don't know.

[1:56:47] Okay, but you went back on the texts on her phone, right?

[1:56:53] Like there's a lot of like very traumatizing stuff to see. I went back like a few days. It's like one year of incriminating. Okay, so she, she.

[1:57:04] She obviously is, I mean, the fact that it happened and you found out about it right after she goes off the pill and you guys are talking about having kids is not an accident.

[1:57:21] Yeah, you're probably right.

[1:57:22] You know why? Because when you try to have kids, shit gets real, right? Like you were talking about, well, I want us to take living together really seriously, but you didn't.

[1:57:31] Yeah.

[1:57:32] Neither of you did. Because what's the purpose of getting married and living together? To have some children. And you guys wait till she's 36? Are you crazy?

[1:57:42] Yeah.

[1:57:42] You guys were playing house at best.

[1:57:44] I was like, yeah, I just might be fucking crazy.

[1:57:47] No, no. At best, you're just playing house, right? It's like this extended sleepover.

[1:57:56] Yeah.

[1:57:58] And then... You start to, you know, time marches on and you're like, okay, well, let's, now we're having a kid. Right? Done. So had this guy not texted her late at night before?

[1:58:19] Oh, God, I don't know.

[1:58:20] But you hadn't heard it, right?

[1:58:25] It's not something that had hit me before or anything unusual or, yeah, I don't know. But it didn't strike you.

[1:58:33] It struck you this time, right?

[1:58:36] Yeah.

[1:58:36] Now, if you're just, if you're having sex with a married woman, and what time was it at night that he texted?

[1:58:45] I'm a little concerned I've gotten herpes as well. Well, geez. Sorry. Well, hopefully that wasn't the message you got. No, no, I just got... Well, yeah, I might as well tell that story now. Fairly recently, a few weeks ago, she had an ulcer on her... Yeah.

[1:59:07] Okay, we don't have to get too graphic here, but you've got concerns that there was a sore that could have transmitted, right?

[1:59:13] I didn't know that was a thing, that you can get just an ulcer on it. it and she went to the doctors and got checked out and told me, oh yeah, it's just an ulcer. Yeah, and I'll put Vaseline on it and it's just an ulcer. It'll solve itself. I was like, oh, I didn't know that was a thing. And then a few days later and since I've had some mouth ulcers. I'm getting checked out today.

[1:59:36] Oh, you got it checked out today?

[1:59:39] No, that's the plan.

[1:59:40] Oh, you're going to go and get it checked out today. Okay, sorry, time zone difference. I obviously fingers crossed about that. All right, so why does a guy text a married woman very late at night?

[1:59:55] Because he's horny.

[1:59:57] Well, no.

[1:59:59] No, in this case. But, like, I mean, no, a married woman, like, you wouldn't typically. I can't think of anything.

[2:00:04] Right, so why would you?

[2:00:17] Not specific to being married, but if you're horny and you're that kind of guy.

[2:00:23] So, the reason why you text a married woman late at night is to produce exactly the kind of scene that happened.

[2:00:33] Oh.

[2:00:34] Right? Because it's late at night, right? So, the bing, right? And the husband might look at it and so-and-so has left a message or whatever, right? And then he says to his wife, who's so-and-so? and then all this shit comes out, right? So the reason you text a married woman late at night is to blow up the marriage.

[2:00:53] Sure.

[2:00:54] Which is what happened, right?

[2:00:57] Yeah.

[2:00:57] So that you can get with the woman.

[2:01:03] I think he's a homewrecking dickhead who's not going to commit to her. I don't think there's any.

[2:01:08] Well, it's not going to work, but that's the thinking, right? Of course. You don't accidentally text someone when they're home with their husband late at night without wanting to screw things up for her, right?

[2:01:23] It's just like life-wise was such a strange time to throw your hat in the ring thinking anything is going to come from it. But okay, sure.

[2:01:30] You mean for the guy?

[2:01:31] Yeah, like, what are you going to make of Anyway, you're just going to Burn through, like At best the rest of the Until they get through the sweet first stuff And then it's just going to go to shit Well.

[2:01:44] But unless she's been talking Hang on, but unless she And I don't know, we're just theorizing here Unless she's talking to him about wanting out And then he's like Well, I can help her with that, I'll text her at midnight.

[2:01:57] The only stuff that wasn't just like Totally sexual was really petty bitching about me that I saw. Like, just like, oh, the slightest little fucking, there's some stuff next to the, like, you know, next to the fucking dish drying rack thing again. Like, just being really petty and nasty about the pettiest insignificant bullshit. Like, yeah. Anyway, that was the only thing that wasn't them just being like, yeah. The other stuff. Right.

[2:02:30] So he's helping her out. He's white knighting to get her out of this terrible blah, blah, blah, right? Or this stupid whatever she's talking about.

[2:02:38] Oh, yeah. Maybe he sees it as, yeah.

[2:02:43] So, man, I mean, it's really, really, really tough. I get that. But I'm certainly happy to hear any scenario through which moving forward wouldn't be a complete disaster, like if you hadn't found this out.

[2:03:00] You're absolutely right if that was a statement um yeah no that's yeah.

[2:03:06] And yeah i mean if you're i mean by god if she gave you an std that's beyond appalling because isn't herpes i'm not an expert i think it's pretty permanent but hopefully that's not the case.

[2:03:18] I don't i don't know i'm hoping for not bad news. We'll see.

[2:03:26] But, I mean, if she was pregnant, now, you're locked in for 20 years, bro.

[2:03:37] When you said that, I got a shudder.

[2:03:39] No, seriously. And she could have gotten pregnant. When did she go off the pill?

[2:03:44] Let's say February.

[2:03:53] Um, I hope she's not pregnant.

[2:03:57] God, I hope she's not pregnant. Um, but we, well.

[2:04:00] And of course you wouldn't even know whose it was, right?

[2:04:03] Trying. Yeah. Um, so it would be very unlikely to be mine if she is pregnant.

[2:04:09] Why?

[2:04:11] Oh, because she wanted to wait until she was solid in her job, um, from a legal stance through probationary period before trying.

[2:04:18] Oh, so you haven't been having procreative sex, even though she's been off the pill?

[2:04:23] Yeah so she you know it's good to do that like because there can be issues to sort out so you know it's good to do that before you like not just go off it and then think oh am i instantly going to get pregnant so it's oh so you've like been.

[2:04:35] Using a condom or.

[2:04:40] Uh more like not having procreative sex at times where it's high risk of pregnancy.

[2:04:51] Sorry was there more it sounded like you cut off just in the middle there.

[2:04:55] Sorry someone tried to call again and it cut through um could could you um ask anything sure sure no it's.

[2:05:03] Future Family Concerns

[2:05:04] Fine so so you have been avoiding procreative sex when she's ovulating right.

[2:05:09] Yes okay.

[2:05:12] All right well.

[2:05:13] And um, yeah, so it's actually very unlikely but, at least with me but also, like I thought it made sense and then I think it's actually just about like then going to fuck another partner the same day or the next day or whatever because she did not want me to even when I was very like to almost no risk of, pregnancy to come in her recently and Oh.

[2:05:40] She might have been sore the other guy, right?

[2:05:44] Or maybe or or just yeah anyway i don't know it's all just so gross but um, sorry um.

[2:05:57] No that's fine i wasn't i don't want to interrupt your thought put.

[2:05:59] Together at the moment.

[2:06:00] Right okay so no.

[2:06:02] I'm having trouble you.

[2:06:04] Know so so listen i mean this is this is a terrible terrible sad situation and i'm not you know gonna say like yay but the light at the end of the tunnel is bullet dodged for you and your kids. And then you have to figure out how this shit cannot happen again. And I don't know what that means. What about your friends? Did your friends like your girlfriend back in the day?

[2:06:45] He hasn't really been very social with my friends. I don't have a lot of friends. And I'm not the best at cultivating friendships.

[2:06:53] Okay, what about your sister?

[2:06:55] Yeah, so I've got, like, say, I've got... It's sort of a newer and, like, not super close, but absolutely great Christian guy and everything who's, like, not really met her until our wedding and stuff. So, like, you know, the people who might have the best insight but didn't really, weren't really around her.

[2:07:12] What about your sister?

[2:07:17] I actually like my sister. She's, yeah.

[2:07:21] No, what did your sister think of your girlfriend?

[2:07:23] She's a good sister to have, but yeah, I think everyone's been really shocked that this is what, yeah.

[2:07:29] Sorry, what did your sister think of your girlfriend back in the day?

[2:07:33] Yeah, I think she liked, yeah. Oh gosh, sorry.

[2:07:37] I'm sorry, I'll take it.

[2:07:38] It's throughout my wife's name.

[2:07:40] Okay, so your sister liked her?

[2:07:45] Yeah. I didn't know her very well.

[2:07:47] Did she spend much time around her?

[2:07:49] No. So my sister lives near my parents.

[2:07:53] Did your sister know that you wanted to get married, not live together? Did your sister know that you were trying to get her married? Did your sister know that you wanted a fairly large number of kids?

[2:08:08] The last one, but no, otherwise I didn't talk to her about...

[2:08:11] Why are you hiding everything from people? You don't tell your parents, you don't tell your sister, you don't tell your friends. That's a big red flag. That's a big red flag. It means that you're in a world with no feedback, no outside view.

[2:08:30] Exactly, yeah.

[2:08:31] So why do you hide things from people?

[2:08:36] Hmm. I think I learned not to because I always got like crushed or like totally disregarded or gaslit about it when I was growing up if I really had a preference and like it was you know no I'm not talking about a preference.

[2:08:53] I'm talking about why do you hide the challenges with your girlfriend from everyone, Like, why can't you say my girlfriend wants to move in? I want to get married. I think she'll break up with me if I hold on to that request or that demand. Or, you know, I keep asking my girlfriend to marry me. She keeps saying she's not ready, but I want a lot of kids. And she's now in her 30s. Like, why? Because you don't, I mean, it's something because you didn't call me, right? You call me now. Right. But you didn't call me then. So why do you keep everything secret? Why do you wrestle with all this stuff alone?

[2:09:45] You know, I'm trying to think, but it comes up so much. My brain just goes, I don't know. You should say, I don't know.

[2:09:53] Okay, well, I'll tell you why, if you want to know. Do you want to know?

[2:09:57] I really want to know.

[2:09:58] Because your girlfriend doesn't want you talking about it.

[2:10:03] Oh.

[2:10:04] Because she doesn't want you to have allies first things that dysfunctional people do is cut you off from people around yourself.

[2:10:13] Oh that's why she was so defensive and scared and like oh don't cut me off from uh yeah because that's what oh because that was in on her radar too as a thing right Right. I didn't even think of that.

[2:10:29] So it's another form of complying with her preferences.

[2:10:37] Never. I haven't thought about that before.

[2:10:41] So you have a problem, you talk about it with people and not just with the person. Because we can't be good in isolation. Goodness comes out of conversation. If you think of the number of things that we've discovered together in this conversation, two hours and a bit, right? You can't be good without a conversation. You can't have virtue without a conversation. Your girlfriend did not want you to become virtuous, so you didn't call me to comply with her. And you didn't talk to your sister to comply with her. And you didn't talk to your mother and father to comply with her. And you didn't talk to your friends about things to comply with her. she wanted you isolated so that you wouldn't get any feedback that might have you shake your head and say this is a bad idea.

[2:11:29] Yeah okay like yeah she wasn't like at all aggressive about anything like that but just never gave any energy to that sort of like or like on a you know like it's not it's just been a few like meetups with no you are no but you are you are so compliant you are so compliant right that.

[2:11:48] That even if she expresses anything negative, you won't do it. And you just, you can't do that.

[2:11:59] Not that bad.

[2:11:59] No, no, no. I mean, until you know, right? Until you know why, right?

[2:12:04] Right.

[2:12:07] So you can't, you can't be more honest than your least honest relationship. You can't have more strength than your weakest relationship or the relationship in which you have viewed the weakest or treated the least.

[2:12:21] Right.

[2:12:23] The girlfriend and the wife is a shadow cast by the mother and the father and maybe the sister too. We didn't get into her and we don't really have time, but don't be in relationships where you can't be direct and honest.

[2:12:36] Yeah. She's had similar issues, divorce and stuff. My sister is kind of the story. Except she had children first, which is awful. Well, I mean, the child's amazing. It's a great kid, but it's an awful situation. Right.

[2:12:51] So, this is why I say, you know, it's really tough to get married and be a good husband and father if you're cucking to your parents, if you're weak with your parents, if you bow down to your parents, if they view you as lesser or inferior or unimportant or, you know, and you're nothing to your parents, it seems to me. you spent six or seven years of your life with a woman they only spent a couple of hours with, that's fucked up, like, where's your preference? well, they live far away, like, I don't know why people pull this shit with me, I gotta tell you brother it's completely bizarre well, they live far away hey, question, do you and I live close together? no, we live on the opposite side of the fucking planet Does that mean we can't have any honest conversations? It's free! I mean, people got to know each other through fucking letters that took a month to get delivered. Your parents can't get on a video call with you guys and see how you're doing? Well, they live far away. Like, why do people try this shit with me? It's incredible. It's unbelievable, the excuses. Like, when you hear that giant sucking sound, it's your own head coming out of your ass. Because, you know, well, they live far away. Like, you understand, that's ridiculous. You're literally talking to a guy when we're on the opposite sides of the earth.

[2:14:21] I really appreciate you making the time, by the way.

[2:14:24] No, that's fine. I mean, I get that it was a bit of an emergency, but your parents should be looking out for you. They should care about you. They shouldn't let you lose six years of your life, in a way. I'm not saying it's all been a waste, but this is not where you want to be in your mid-thirties.

[2:14:40] Damn, it was a waste. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[2:14:44] And, you know, maybe with medical effects too, right? So they should be looking out for you, right? And if they're not looking out for you, what the fuck are they for? If they're not watching your back, what are they for? if they don't care about you enough to get to know your girlfriend what are they for? well therefore their preference is not yours you understand the exploitation that we were talking about with your role play of your girlfriend comes from your parents, they want things from you they won't even get to know your girlfriend, now you understand this if you really really really love her if you really loved her Your parents' indifference would be horrifying to you. Did you understand what I mean?

[2:15:41] I'm sorry. I kind of blanked.

[2:15:44] Okay. So if you really, really, really loved your girlfriend and you thought she's just the greatest thing ever, anyone who was indifferent to her would be like nothing to you. You would be horrified and it would be like gross.

[2:16:00] Sure. Yeah, sure.

[2:16:02] Because she's so amazing and she's so cool and she's so amazing and she makes you so happy that anyone's like, eh, I don't care to get to know her. I mean, I've told you this, right? I mean, I've said this on the show a bunch of times.

[2:16:14] I don't care to get to know you then, yeah.

[2:16:16] Well, it's like, you know, I had a close family member who's like, yeah, I don't care to get to know your wife because you're just going to get divorced anyway. And I'm like, bye-bye. Right? Yeah. And it's the same, like when you become a father, people who aren't interested in your child, it's like, sorry, I don't have any time for you. I don't know, because my child is so wonderful, so fascinating, so amazing. amazing, so cool, and I love being a dad so much that anybody who's indifferent to my daughter is like, wow, I don't care about you anymore, sorry.

[2:16:47] She does seem like a totally awesome person.

[2:16:50] Oh, that's true, that's true. So one of the ways that you know you didn't truly love your girlfriend is because you didn't particularly care that your parents didn't want to get to know her. Because they didn't, right?

[2:17:07] But maybe we covered this already a little bit, but I'm just sort of like, what do they have to offer in regards to that? Because that's where the problem comes from.

[2:17:19] They should care about her. Why? Why should they care about her?

[2:17:24] I'm just saying they won't be helpful.

[2:17:26] Why should they care about her?

[2:17:33] Because I do.

[2:17:34] Right. Because she matters to you, she matters to them. Yeah. The degree that your parents care about you is mirrored by the degree they don't care about your girlfriend.

[2:17:52] Parental Influence Impact

[2:17:53] Yeah.

[2:17:53] And your parents, more than any other outside yourself, right? And your girlfriend. But your parents and her parents are the single biggest reason and you ended up in this mess. They trained you into compliance with these false dichotomies, these false questions. They trained you that you can't ever get what you want and people will just escalate until you fold. That's your mother with your father and that was your girlfriend with you about these various things, right? Just escalate. Oh, do it or we're breaking up. Okay. So your parents trained you in this.

[2:18:32] Yeah.

[2:18:32] And where you are is a significant product of what your parents did and do to this day. That's the danger. And it didn't seem, did it trouble you that your parents weren't getting to know your girlfriend?

[2:18:54] No, because I was like, I don't see, that they have that, like, didn't see that they were valuable in that.

[2:19:06] Think of this. Let's say, you know, my daughter's 20 and there's some guy who wants to shack up with her. What do you think I'm going to be doing?

[2:19:19] Check up as in move in, like live together? Yeah. I just want to, I mean, so if that's the situation, what are you going to do? Sorry, what was the question?

[2:19:29] Let's say there's some guy, my daughter's whatever, it doesn't really matter what age, she's an adult, right? And he wants to move in with her. What am I going to be doing?

[2:19:49] Uh talking to them i.

[2:19:52] Will be talking to him i will be talking to his family i will be examining everything i can about them i will be making sure of his honor and i would say she well she would never accept that she'd want to get married right but i would be spending so much time because here's the potential for two families to merge right which means i gotta know and i.

[2:20:12] Guess you'd be You're like, well, why aren't they going to get married?

[2:20:14] Well, of course I would be all of that too.

[2:20:16] Right?

[2:20:16] Yeah. But I would be like, oh, so my daughter is worth living with but not marrying? Are you kidding me? What's the matter with you? Yeah. Of course she's worth that. She's worth a thousand of that. Like it's kind of an insult.

[2:20:30] Yeah.

[2:20:32] Right? And because we're looking at the potential merger of two families, I'm going to be vetting the family of the young man, and they're going to be vetting me. and I would open myself up to that, of course, right? But we're going to blend together as families. And these grandparents on my son-in-law's side are going to be watching my grandkids, right? And we're going to socialize together and we're going to do Christmases together. Like, I'm going to need to know these people. I mean, can you imagine? My daughter's been dating some guy for five years and I've only talked to him for a couple of hours and we spent a couple of hours. Like, this is incomprehensible.

[2:21:14] But it's also, to me, just, like, so foreign. Like, I can't imagine having had a father like you. Like, it's just, like, not, yeah, what I had to deal with.

[2:21:29] Well, not that I'm your dad, but you had access to me anytime.

[2:21:35] That's true people who are listening are.

[2:21:38] Yeah it's actually really.

[2:21:40] Easy to get onto please please.

[2:21:43] Don't don't wait till you cross your fingers on stv channels right yeah yeah please.

[2:21:47] Go in uh yeah.

[2:21:49] So listen i i obviously i can't you know your heart is is wounded and i i i sympathize and i i feel for you i really do i if it's any consolation i was in a six or seven year a relationship that you know i i left it wasn't as flame out like this but i do have some understanding of of the investment and how difficult it is but whenever you feel hurt i want you to find the part in this show with the role play i'm not kidding put that on a fucking yeah i know you're not put that on a loop make that your fucking ringtone.

[2:22:33] It's like mosquitoes in the brain, yeah, bullet dodged and while you have the right to be as masochistic as you want in your own dating you are going to bring brand new human beings and give them to this woman, yeah And it's better now than later.

[2:22:59] A Chance for Happiness

[2:23:00] This, this, this bust up is your only chance for a happy family. I'm not kidding about that. This is your only chance for a happy family is this breakup. And while it certainly isn't going to feel that way now, there'll be a time where you're like, you'll look back and you'll be like, oh my God, that was, I was this close to that. I was this close to the volcano. Actually, no, it's worse than a volcano because a volcano is a quick end.

[2:23:29] Sure.

[2:23:31] Oh, my goodness. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention? Because I know we've been talking for a long time.

[2:23:38] Bit of a tangent um just like on the talk to steph when uh you know you need someone like um i don't hear a lot of people um you know uh repeat calls very often and like when it's not an emergency and like just like oh i could use a little bit of help with this um, it seems weird to ask i'm pretty sure you'd be like yeah i can do some of that but um.

[2:24:02] Yeah you want me to help yeah absolutely absolutely i keep begging so the reason there's not a lot of repeat callers is i generally suggest to people go to therapy and of course we'll suggest it as well so generally they work on with their therapist if they want to repeat call from me and they haven't gone to therapy i'm like you know why would you you know if you don't listen to my advice then why would you want my advice right so again i would strongly suggest you know lately.

[2:24:24] Like i think therapy that's good therapy can be extremely valuable i'm very skeptical about the whatever industry standard.

[2:24:36] Yeah i think therapy's changed a lot from when i was younger so i mean i i don't quite know.

[2:24:41] I've got a lot of ambivalence about it actually.

[2:24:43] Yeah i mean i think you can maybe just look for an older therapist somebody who was around before the work stuff and and so on and you know just keep going until you find someone you really click with but uh that would be my suggestion if it does have to be you know there's still a lot of therapists practicing in their 60s and 70s so um that would be my suggestion but listen if you meet someone on and you want to do a vet call i'm i'm perfectly thrilled to do it that would be very helpful and not just for me but for others as well wow.

[2:25:12] I felt a positive emotion i was like i'm.

[2:25:15] With gratitude.

[2:25:16] I haven't felt that for a little while.

[2:25:18] Good good and i know it's tough try and try and get some sleep i look it's massive turmoil and so on the mindset has a lot to do with things and if you view it as oh my gosh it's a divorce and it's the worst thing ever and she cheated and blah blah blah the worse the behavior the more relief you'll feel in the long time and she's behaved appallingly obviously right so the worse the behavior you know the really tough breakups are the ones where it's like eh you know it's not terrible it's okay I think I could do better but you know this is just such a spectacular flame out that you know being ejected from the wreckage is like what's going to keep you alive.

[2:25:58] I like the yeah view yeah.

[2:26:01] Will you keep me posted about how things are going?

[2:26:06] Yes, sir. Absolutely. I so, so appreciate it.

[2:26:10] Big hug, brother. I'm so sorry for all of this. It'll work out. I promise you, I promise you, I promise you, though that's not to say that it's not going to be tough, but keep me posted, all right?

[2:26:19] Sure. Again, thanks so much. And all the best to you, and so much appreciation for everything as well as this call. Thanks.

[2:26:27] Take care. Bye. Thanks, Mike.

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