My Girlfriend Doubts Philosophy! Freedomain Call In - Transcript

Relationship Concerns

[0:00] My question is about my relationship with my girlfriend.
I am in this place in my life where I've never been. I have a lovely girlfriend.
I think I very much appreciate her and feel like she's a very, very valuable person in my life.
However, I'm not sure that she is the one for me, like the one that we should live 80 years together, bring kids together.
I want many kids. She wants kids, but not as many, because I'm not sure that she shares the values that I so much value.
I can go into more detail.

Sympathy and Advice

[0:46] That's a very tough situation, and I sympathize. It's almost better to not like someone than to be in doubt about someone, because at least you have not this problem.
So I sympathize with that, and I'm happy to hear if you want to tell me what age range are you?
You don't have to tell me exactly. 20s? Mid-20s?

[1:06] Mid-20s, yes.

Getting to Know Sarah

[1:07] Mid-20s, okay. And how long have you been going out with, can we call her Sarah? Is that okay?

[1:13] Yes.

[1:13] Okay, so how long have you been going out with Sarah?

[1:17] Six months.

[1:18] Six months.

[1:19] Maybe just about seven right now.

Evaluating Pluses and Minuses

[1:21] So, yeah, hit me with the pluses and the minuses. Obviously, there's enough plus there that is tormenting you and enough minuses there that the torment might be real.
So what are the things that you like and the things that you don't like and all of that?

[1:35] Sure. So I will tell, but just in case I will open my mail. So in case I forget something.
Um, so, uh, so the plus is like, okay, she's, she's the best one I had yet.
That's for sure. That's by far.
Um, she is very positive.
She's very, um, um, yeah, just, uh, happy.
Happy she um she cares about me she loves me she um um she tries to have the initiative and stuff and bring stuff to the relationship she offers to go places and whenever i take her to places she's very grateful about it she um she's just a lot of fun a lot of fun and um whenever we talk We have long conversations.
She's with me. I very much appreciate that of her, that she can bear with me very long conversations in which I bring very niche perspectives, very, very perspectives that are not conventional.
She never heard about this whole stuff about homeschooling, way less she heard about my philosophical leanings, meaning anarcho-capitalism, which is actually one of the main points that.

[3:02] Concerns me.
Me um so yeah she i mean if i can uh open my mail i i have she was she did some um let me see okay here it is uh okay so i'll just read something here that that i wrote that but I think it expresses it better.
So, um...

[3:35] So yeah, so I'm now facing the crossroads of whether I want to continue the relationship or not.
She wants me and wants to continue, but not under the standards I propose we should follow.
She's very kind, warm, not complicated, a good listener, beautiful, fun, caring, feminine, and pleasant to be around.
And I would say we have a ratio of 90% happy and meaningful memories.
She also has done some acts I really value, such as joining my gym and training under my coaching, trying out the niche underwater sport I play and playing with the team for for two or three trainings, but then she came and filmed three of the other team practices, like three of our team practices, and she later edited one of the films, and all of the team got to watch it and appreciate that we can watch ourselves play.
She surprised me with puzzles that I like, with some Rubik's Cube that I really like.
She also learned how to solve them.
Also, she's a good girl who has taken care of herself in the sexual market and thus has come with no baggage nor toxicity to the relationship.
In short, she's a wonderful person who brings me happiness every time she smiles.
Should I continue to the problems?

Values and Future Plans

[4:51] Sure.

[4:54] Okay, so the problem is values, future plans and conflict resolution.
So, by the way, when I wrote this, it was two weeks ago and we were in the middle of a conflict.
Right now, it's just the dust settled off a little bit, but this still is not resolved.
So it still is on my mind, but I am now going along with it and feeling not as much concerned about it.

Conflict on Values

[5:20] But I know that it will for sure rise again. game so the problem is values flutter plans and conflict resolution uh i want my key i want many kids and no dogs she only wants two and a dog this is actually the only one that i believe i can convince her but there's a lot of uncertainty on my side um i want to homeschool them for at least and for at least one parent to be home which is probably her because they probably make more money, um she wants a career in architecture and has made no comment on homeschooling, we only had we had a few conversations in which I raised the issue and she, she many times says that she doesn't know about it but then doesn't want to, I mean we didn't find the time to actually talk about it seriously this is something that maybe.

[6:17] Maybe Maybe it's a problem that we don't have the time to talk as much deeply into these topics.
Never mind, I'll continue the email.
Okay, so I don't want to circumcise the kids.
She was open to hearing that, but did not approve of it wholeheartedly.
Instead, she said it's important for her grandparent.
So I'm not sure what is her position on that. I fear that it may be too passive.
Another big one and maybe the central one is that i'm an anarchist this one is at the forefront forefront right now it is of extreme importance to me to agree on morality i believe it will help her agree with my future plans and be enthusiastic about them because i believe that if she'll be an anarchist then she will see why i want i don't want to put my kids on government schools which which are brainwashed for me for the kids so i believe agreement here is necessary for admiration and love.
I believe if I don't marry someone who agrees with me on this first of all it's a foolish idea because it's so rare and special so someone who does agree with me will appreciate me tenfold.

[7:34] So unfortunately as was the case with all the other girls I got out with she's not interested in the topic.
We had at least four semi-long conversations about it in three of them she said the points I made made sense to her she did not think of it before but they don't seem to make but even though even though she did not think of them before they don't seem to make an impact on her and make her change her mind um in the in the other one of these four conversations i was actually attacking her, her mindset about the problems because as you may very well be uh familiar with sometimes people People just ask questions without bringing curiosity, just asking, oh no, how will someone fix the roads?
So I was attacking her approach.

[8:27] Sorry, what do you mean by attacking?

[8:30] Oh, sorry.

[8:33] I'm not sure if you're yelling at her or just being very critical logically. What do you mean?

[8:38] Oh, no, I never yelled at her. I think it was just making logical points. Yes, that's me.
So I pointed out that I don't believe her approach is correct, that she's not showing curiosity, but rather closed with a prejudiced conclusion. conclusion.
She raises this conversation as evidence that I am not willing to answer questions and therefore I'm close-minded and discussing this topic with me is pointless.
So this is something that actually hits me in a very personal point because my family also tells me this, that I'm close-minded.

Closed-Minded Perception

[9:18] So the way I see it is that I'm not close-minded because I got convinced convinced and i've never seen them getting convinced but uh yeah this is something that i get from many people around me uh namely um the girls i i've gone out with and my family, okay so i'll continue could you.

[9:37] Tell me a little bit more i just i just hold your place in in that i just want to make sure i understand what they mean by closed-minded or what you think they mean by close-minded okay.

[9:48] So by the way this is something that maybe even my friends tell me that i am not willing to really really listen to their positions and i'm already coming in with a with a position of my own and they know that they will not be able to convince me so maybe that's what they think i know that this is not the case that i um i mean i react to to good arguments and many Many times they don't bring good arguments, so I think that is the reason that I don't change my mind.
But I think they think I'm close-minded. I will not look at it.

[10:25] So open-minded means, do you think they mean that open-minded means you'll accept bad arguments and just nod along?
Or if you say this argument is false and they can't disprove you, then they just resort to an ad hominem attack?
Attack like well you're just close-minded and it's like well no maybe you're just wrong like maybe the other person's just wrong and then they attack you as being close-minded when they won't accept that they've made a bad argument.

Perception of Closed-Mindedness

[10:58] So I'm sure that they believe that they brought good arguments.
So I'm sure that they believe that it's me who's not willing to look at the good arguments and to actually change my mind.
But at the same time, I know that some of my friends who don't want to get into issues with me are kind of not wanting to engage.
With one friend, I have a disagreement about very, very basic philosophical stuff, like is there even a truth?
So he obviously doesn't want to get into that that discussion because he knows that he doesn't have arguments so this is what causes him to already believe that I'm close-minded I think it's the only is the only way for him to to deal with the fact that I'm that you're right yes so he's like there's.

[11:59] No such thing as truth but it is true that you're close-minded okay.

[12:03] It gets great Yeah, exactly.
That's the same exact sentence that I use.

[12:11] I can't prove that this ball in my hand exists, but I know for a fact that you're close-minded.
It's like, okay, that's excellent epistemology right there. Excellent.

[12:21] Yeah, so yeah.

Relationship Advice from Friends

[12:25] Yeah, so one of the things that one of...
Okay, so I have a friend and he has a girlfriend and they talk to me about it.
They tried to give me some advice because they have some issues which are related not in the values but in the ways that it comes about.
So they also don't agree with each other on some stuff.
And then they find some ways to maybe bridge the gap.
And what she said, I think, was interesting. She said that in their case, he is better with words than she is.

Communication Challenges

[13:01] And then um there are cases where she knows that she's not convinced and she knows that he didn't raise a good uh good point but she's wordless and doesn't know how to um how to respond to it with good words but she but she still knows that his argument is is wrong so maybe that's manipulation right yeah so maybe yeah maybe that's manipulation but uh um well no listen i mean my.

[13:29] My wife is better than me at some things, so I defer to her.
I'm better than her at some things, so she defers to me.
So the idea that you say, well, my husband is much better at debating and arguing and thinking and reasoning...
But I'm not going to defer to him, well, that just doesn't make any sense at all.
That's like saying, well, my dentist is much better at taking care of my teeth than anything I can think of, but I'm still going to argue with my dentist all the time.
It's like, well, that's not right.
If you bring your car in to be fixed and you don't know how to fix your car, are you going to argue with the guy who actually fixes your car?
That makes no sense at all.

[14:11] I mean i think what she thinks is that she's not here for his philosophical views i mean she doesn't want to defer to him on that because she doesn't recognize that he's better than he than she is although if she if she was to realize that he's better in finances then it was no problem for her to to defer to him on that uh on that field because uh she has no problem to admit in in that field that uh she she's willing to to bring someone in to her life life to deal with that stuff but on the philosophy side maybe she is not inviting that stuff she doesn't need it she doesn't want to she doesn't think it will improve her life and so she she just nothing doesn't think that that it's a good value and then and then she she doesn't defer to him even though she does not know how to respond to him right.

Gender Differences in Conflict

[15:02] Okay and do you i mean i think you've You've had a couple of thoughts there about why that might be happening.
Like, why would the women, it seems to be more the women, and I think that's a bit more common, why do you think the women are so keen on saying, well, I can't argue you, but I'm not going to admit that you're right?

[15:26] So, okay, so I think it has many reasons. One of the reasons that I think is in my case is because she doesn't have much experience in getting the other person to change his mind, then if she changes her mind all the time, then she is not confident in that it is a two-sided game.
She just thinks that she is giving up something and the other person is more powerful than her in the relationship, and then she will be little and she won't appreciate herself.

[16:05] Yeah, I think there's something to do with that, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong.
Another part of it might be that women who want to have kids generally are going to be in the community of other women, right?
If they're stay-at-home moms, then they're going to be in a community of other moms. Is that fair to say?
Now, how does anarcho-capitalism or the non-aggression principle or how private organizations provide national defense, how does that help them with other women and raising their children in a community of other women?

[16:49] Yes so the social reason how will the environment accept her is also a good point because I think she knows deep inside that they will judge her badly if she takes these conclusions.

[17:08] So for you it's a net gain because you're kind of facing the world and people in the world and how to change the world and that's your But if she is saying, well, okay, I'm going to raise my kids with a bunch of other moms, how do these beliefs help me?
In fact, they're just going to interfere with that goal. Is that fair to say?

[17:29] Yes, I think yes. So how does it help her?

[17:35] Well, so, yeah, men will often bond on arguing, on debating, right?
We love that. It's like play fighting for us in a way, right?
So I love matching wits and seeing who's right and wrong and having a debate and so on.
And again, because men often get into conflicts with each other and then we kind of shake hands. Like it happens in sports.
It can even happen in fistfights where you have a fight and then you shake hands and you're not enemies afterwards.
So for men, we can disagree and often quite aggressively.
And it doesn't wreck the friendship. It doesn't wreck everything. thing but when women disagree a lot of times it gets really nasty like a man might punch you in the face but a woman will try to destroy your entire reputation and have your girlfriend break up with you you know it can get really so i think a lot of times men are a little bit better trained at having conflicts or not being as afraid of conflicts whereas for women the conflicts tend tend to get pretty intense, and they tend to be very long-lasting.
So I think she might just be saying, okay, well, if I get into these conflicts, you know, like the circumcision question, right?

Conflict Resolution in Relationships

[18:47] So she might say, well, gosh, you know, if I end up disagreeing with the other mothers about circumcision, and that's like a big deal, then...

[19:04] That looms bigger in that kind of world than it might in our world of more abstract argumentation, if that makes sense?

[19:11] Yes, it makes sense.

[19:13] Anyway, that's a possibility, although I think that the other thing you said is right too.
So, sorry, go ahead. I know that I dragged you off of this other path, all of that, so I'm sorry about that, but you were talking about the things that are problems.

Building a Supportive Community

[19:26] No, I mean, I think it's a very interesting path because I surely don't want, And I want to make sure that I don't put her in a bad situation as compared to her friends, which I think she should make use of her friends to help her raising the kids.
So I don't want to put her in that situation.

[19:42] But especially if you want homeschooling. She's going to have to be part of some homeschooling group or community, right?

[19:48] Yes. And that's a good question. Actually, I don't have an answer.
I mean, I don't know which friends. I mean, I have my best friend.
I know he is with me philosophically.
In 99% of what we believe in.
So I know he will be able to bring his children if he has one, if he has some children.
But other than that, I don't know if I will have a strong community.
So I'm more relying on myself and on the fact that I can cooperate with people and we can cooperate with people even that don't agree with us because we can send the kids to basketball games.
So we don't have to agree with them on everything. But yes, I think we should cooperate with people who are more aligned with our values.
I don't know if there are such people. I mean, I don't know such people.
I know only my best friend, and I'm trying to convert hair.
And also I'm in a WhatsApp group with all of these people, but they're dispersed all over the country.
So I don't know if I have a solution for the community problem, but I know that we, first of all, have to be consistent internally, and then we can create a path based on values that we share, and then we can figure out maybe what will the community be.

Living in the Future vs. Present

[21:16] Right. So one of the big differences between men and women, and it's not bad or anything, but men tend to live in the future and women tend to live in the present.
So in your mind, and I think in your life, you're like, well, I have this non-aggression principle, anarcho-capitalism. I have this vision of the future and how I want things to be and so on.
And I think maybe your girlfriend is like, well, that's great.
You know, wonderful. I have to...
Actually be part of a community that lives with the values that we have in the here and now if we're going to homeschool and if i'm going to be part of a community, and the more i get into your values the more difficulty i have creating a community, to to raise the kids in and the more conflict i'm going to end up with and the more isolated i'm going to become and.

[22:03] Actually it's interesting because how i serve it myself is i say I say, okay, I have friends.
And the reason I have friends is that I play sports. And when I play sports, I go out with the people on that sport, and we don't have to agree on values.
But, I mean, the only reason I can...

[22:26] Well, no, you have to agree on the rules.

[22:30] Yeah, sure.

[22:31] So you have to agree on some values, right?

[22:34] Yeah, for sure we agree on the rules.

[22:36] Moral, abstract. Yeah, yeah, I get it.

[22:38] Yeah, so, I mean, the problem that I'm bringing to her life on the moral courage is, what do you say about the NAP?
So she is very fearful on accepting some of my conclusions. My, I mean, the conclusions that I think are correct.
So the way I deal with it with my friends is that But I bring it up just because I know that only those who agree with me are probably the ones who are going to cooperate with me on homeschooling kids.
All the rest are going to be just conventional. They're going to send their kids to daycare.
And I mean, I will not cooperate with them if I hide my values.
So they obviously know my values, but only if I convert them, then they can cooperate with me and help me with that.
I don't know if it's correct.

Society and Values Conflict

[23:39] Sorry, and the other negatives. It's mostly around society and values.
I mean, there is the number of kids, and I get that, but is it around society and values as a whole?

[23:51] Yes i mean i don't think she's um uh philosophical enough i mean uh once you talked about um about having a shared interest and we share some interest but i think philosophy is too, is burning too too hot inside me and i can't just accept that no.

[24:14] But why would you need a woman to to share your love of philosophy to the degree that you do, not that you can't talk about it or that she doesn't care, but to have that burning passion within you, why would she need to match that?
Because that would be very rare in anyone, but I think a little bit more rare among women.

[24:38] So, yeah, so I agree it's rare. And also, I mean, I think that there are people like that. I have evidence that there are women like that, but there are no women.
I mean, I didn't talk to these women, so it's very far. But I do think that there is something else out there in the world.
So that's why I'm a bit unsure.

[25:00] Well, okay, so how many women have you met who share your burning passion for philosophy?
And not any women. It doesn't matter. Like, it could be aunts, uncles, you know, whatever.
Sorry, aunts or people's wives or whatever. How many women have you met who share your passion for philosophy?

[25:21] Okay, so in the anarchist WhatsApp group, there are two.
So I know that based on what they write, I know that they are very philosophically inclined and agree with me and show correct, I think, good values in what they write.
And in my personal life, probably zero, but there are two who I think have enough of conversational skills and enough curiosity so that they could become one of these people.
So you're not a bad condition.

[25:57] Right?

[25:58] No.

Evaluating Philosophical Connections

[25:59] So hang on. So when you tell me there's two out of your group, what does that not tell me?
Two out of how many?

[26:10] I mean, um...

[26:11] Two out of two is 50%. Two out of 100 is 2%. How many?

[26:17] I mean, I say there are two from which I ever...

[26:23] No, you said in your anarchy group, there's two women, but how many people are in your anarchy group?

[26:30] Sure, sure, sure. In the anarchy group, which is, again, this is not part of my community.
This is just an internet community, which I have no physical connection with. So there, there are two.

Female Perspectives on Philosophy

[26:40] There are, I think, something like four women, but two of them are active.
And so I know the values and the philosophical innings of them.
But there are just four women in total there out of, I don't know, 60 men. Okay. Something like that.

[26:58] Got it. Okay. And are the women, are they like, I don't know, if you were single, would you date them?

[27:08] Exactly.

[27:09] No, no. Would you?

[27:12] So the answer is yes.

[27:14] Okay. Got it.

[27:15] One of them is not single, but the other one I think is single, and from what she writes, this is a very, very big temptation for me.
I never talk to her, and I never will do it as long as I have a girlfriend, and I told her that there is this temptation, but it is a big temptation.

[27:35] Oh, you said to who? Your girlfriend?

[27:37] Yes.

[27:40] I'm sorry, you said to your girlfriend that you're tempted to get in touch with the online anarcho-haughty because she's more attractive philosophically?

[27:52] I didn't say it in those words.

[27:54] No, I bet.

[27:55] Yeah no i mean i said that uh there is some steps that we still did not make in order to for me to be uh to be confident that i want her to be my wife one of those steps is um the agreement on, anarchism anarcho-capitalism um i mean she she asked me are there any girls that are anarcho Okay, I remember what she asked me.
She asked me, why didn't you put this standard at the beginning?
And I said, I mean, the standard that I put at the beginning is, are you able to adapt or to react to reason?
So this is the standard. I didn't expect you to be an anarcho-capitalist from the start.
And also, there are no anarcho-capitalists. I only know of one more girl who is an anarcho-capitalist who is in this group, but I will never talk to her.
And then she got the idea that I want to talk to her, which is the correct idea.
I want to talk to her, but not in the context of a relationship.
So she asked me, kind of upset, Okay, so am I something that sets you back? And I said, of course...

[29:12] Oh, holding you back from talking to this girl.

[29:14] Exactly. And the way I answer that is I am still seeing you as a big, huge opportunity in my life who maybe will be the future of my children, the mother of my children.
And I am still judging you and trying to fit you into that position.
But it is a temptation that you still do not fulfill in my biggest desires.

Emotional Barriers to Principles

[29:47] Okay, let me ask you this. If your girlfriend were to come to you and say, look, it's not my intellect that fails to grasp the universality of the non-aggression principle. I get all of that.
I just have this emotional barrier because I see it as a very lonely life.
Like, you're going to be off doing your work, and are you going to work with people who aren't anarcho-capitalists?

[30:14] Okay, so this is you asking me as my girlfriend, right?

[30:17] Yeah, yeah.

[30:17] Okay, so I don't think it is a lonely life. I think— No, no.

[30:23] Hang on, hang on. Just answer the question. Are you going to, in your professional life, are you going to work with people who don't share your values?

[30:31] I will and I do.

[30:32] Okay. So you don't obviously alienate your work colleagues with lots of talk about anarcho-capitalism, right?

[30:42] Correct.

[30:43] Okay. So for me, if I accept these values, I accept these arguments, arguments am i uh will you be okay if when i'm homeschooling i hang out with other moms who aren't anarcho-capitalists and we are friends or we have companionship in that group of raising children.

[31:05] Um for sure for sure i mean i mean i i think we should point out whenever something goes astray in the teaching but for sure we can cooperate and i have friends which are very very not anarcho-capitalist and I'm still their friend.
So yes, the answer is yes.

[31:22] Sorry, what do you mean when you say, I think we should point it out when, we should point it out when what? I just missed that.

[31:29] Okay, so if we are friends with non-anarcho-capitalists and maybe they're, I don't know, maybe they're socialists, and then we will teach our children together in a homeschooling environment, and then maybe they'll teach them something which we do not agree.
So there's no no problem with that. We just have to point out that that is not what we believe.
So we have to make sure that we know what they're teaching them.
So that is a concern.

[31:57] Are you, this is as your girlfriend, are you yourself friends with socialists?

[32:03] Um they're not philosophical so i believe they're not socialists um so no no.

[32:09] But you said socialists just just a moment or two ago.

[32:12] Yeah i was taking an example but uh i don't have friends that are socialists that define themselves as such i have only one friend who is philosophical who knows what these terms mean so.

[32:22] Are your other friends they would call themselves socialists is that right or some of.

[32:27] No no no no no they won't uh they are they they don't want to get into this stuff but uh i think mostly would say that uh the regular stuff that i see the the value in capitalism but i think there is also place for um mutual help in the socialistic way i don't know but i think so they would be like semi-socialists, I mean I think that that they would raise more points for capitalism but I don't think they are very involved in it they will raise some points for socialism as well so they're willing to violate.

[33:05] Property rights and the non-aggression principle using force.

[33:08] Yes and.

[33:10] They're your friends.

[33:13] Yes ok.

[33:16] So if you think that it's really important to have good relationships for people to share your values.
Why do you have friends who not only don't share your values, but would be willing to use force against you for disagreeing with them?

[33:32] Okay, so that's a good point, and I thought about it a lot, because that is exactly the point that my parents raised when I asked them, too, why are you not interested, why are you, you know, the against me argument, why are you willing to put force against me?
And they say, okay, but you are not really believing in what you say, because why do you say it only to us, why not to your friends? and first of all I mean, with my friends it's less important for me I mean, okay it's less important for me to agree on values because first of all my friends are not gonna, bring children with me, so it's a lower standard and secondly, I think they are, inside the same cage with me, so they are just not realizing that that they are inside a cage, but they are not willing to see the cage for what it is.
And I think I can give them a pass for that.
I don't think that they will use force against me if they were, I don't know, in the positions of power.
I don't think they would want to go to the positions of power, my friends.

[34:45] Okay, so then let's get back to me being your girlfriend.

Integrity and Values in Relationships

[34:48] So your girlfriend might then say, so obviously it's totally fine if i have friends who don't agree with the non-aggression principle, i mean you do so it's fine with me right yes so good okay so my family my friends it's fine if they don't agree with the non-aggression principle right.

[35:12] I mean, yes, I was kind of in the path of, I'm not sure about what my path should be about this issue about integrity, whether should I continue to raise this issue.
I raised this issue very, very exhaustively with my family. They are completely burned out of it.
They hate, I mean, they don't hate me for it, but we don't have regular dinners. They hate the topic.

[35:39] Yeah.

[35:39] Yeah, they hate the topic. So, I mean, I think I'm in the position right now that, yes, it's okay.
Of course, if I allow friends that have these ideas, then you should also be able to allow.
I don't want to have standards for medical difference.

[36:00] Okay, so it's fine if my friends and my family oppose your values, because it's not just that they don't share your values. It's that they oppose your values, right?

[36:10] I would not put it as opposed, because they are just not interested in it.

[36:16] Well, no, but I mean, if I'm a doctor and somebody's choking to death in the restaurant and I say, well, I'm just not interested in saving them, I mean, that's kind of aggressive in a way, right?

[36:31] Yes.

[36:32] So they do oppose your values in that they support the current system, which opposes your values, right?

[36:42] Um yes but only out of i mean only because it's more comfortable um i mean i don't think that if they thought that i was really in danger they would act according to the system and not according to no but they know that i mean.

[36:59] Sorry but i mean in terms of supporting aggression against you they I mean, they do that, right?
And I'm just playing devil's advocate here, right? But they do support the current system that supports aggression against you, and obviously themselves as well, but you in particular in terms of your values.

[37:17] Yes, but they don't see it as aggression against me.

[37:21] Well, but who cares what they see it as, the question is. I mean, that's not a philosophical answer.
I mean, I can't clap a hand over my eyes and say there's no train coming down the tracks to hit me, right? I can't just will things away or not believe in things. The question is, are they real or true or valid, right?

[37:38] Yes. So whenever I confront them and really show them that, okay, there is violence, then and only then will they say, okay, so we support this violence, but only, I mean, yes.
So that's the answer. Yes. So they will support the answer if they get pushed to the limit, but they don't, yeah.
I mean, yes.
I'm not sure the end of that sentence was um, Yes, they don't see it as violence, but if I point out, okay, man, this is violence, then they will just evade it in one in a hundred ways.
But yes, they will support it in the end.
But by, I mean, not by supporting, okay, we support violence.
I mean, I'm sure you had the same situation.
They will not say, okay, we support the violence. They will obviously say, okay.

[38:34] Yeah, they define it as it's consensual social contract. Yeah, I get the defenses that people have.
And so your girlfriend probably looks at this, I think, and would say, okay, so his friends, his family, they can all not accept what he says.
And he's okay with that. He's okay with continuing those relationships and saying he loves them and he's close to them and family dinners and friendship outings and so on, right?

[39:06] So in my defense, she does see a very, very big difference in my judgment towards my family and my best friends.
Okay, there's a very big difference towards my family and my two other friends.

[39:20] Can I ask you to move back from the microphone a little bit?
Sounds like you're half swallowing it, if you could.

[39:26] Yes. Yes, thank you.

[39:27] Go ahead, sorry.

[39:29] Maybe I should talk a little bit lower?

[39:32] I don't mind the passion. You could raise your voice as much as you want.
I'm just saying it's a little bit in my ears.

[39:39] Is this better?
Yeah, that's fine.

[39:44] Sorry, go ahead.

[39:45] Okay, so in my defense, she does see a really big difference in my judgment towards, in one side, my best friend who is aligned with me in my values.
And the other side, which is my family and my two other friends, we have a group of four. Two of us are philosophical and two of us are not, but the four of us like to spend time with each other.
So she does see a big difference and she does see that I am less interested in them as opposed to my other friend.
And she also does see that there is a lot of conflict in my family and that I am not eager to go to family dinners and that I am more than willing to not talk to them for the entire week and just limit my contact with them.
So she sees that there are consequences.

[40:46] Right, okay, okay. And do you feel or does she think that she's going to have to do this with her own family, have this amount of conflict and problems?

[41:00] Maybe she feels that, but I told her that I don't expect her to do that, and I also don't recommend her to do that, because I don't think that it will change them, their minds.
I mean, I've tried very, very— Oh, so it's okay.

[41:13] Hang on. So it's not a good idea to have personal conflicts with family about values.
If you think it won't change their minds, then you should just continue and not have these conflicts. Is that right? Yeah.

[41:30] Listen, I'm not criticizing you.

[41:33] I'm just trying to understand your girlfriend's thinking. I'm not having a big lecture on you about integrity. I just want to understand what your girlfriend might be thinking.

[41:39] Sure. And thank you. By the way, this is very much organizing the thoughts in my mind, so thank you very much.
So I would recommend her that she, if this is important for her, and I hope it will be important for her, I do recommend that she try to bring up these ideas.
Ideas i i i do recommend her to come with a lot of patience and a lot and very differently that i did because i did it very aggressively um but she should come with patience and she should i think think first of all what will happen if they will not agree because that is the most likely case and um i will recommend that if she if she values her family i think it's a good idea to bring and to correct their error because i think that letting people persist in error, it's like you put it letting people persist in error I think is, not loving them as much as you could so I would recommend I would recommend her to do it but I think it's mostly inefficient okay.

[42:45] So she sees you saying well you can continue your closest relationships it's fine they don't have to accept what you believe, it's worth giving it a try Right, but if they're just not going to accept it, you just drop the topic and continue the relationship, right?

[43:01] Yes, but then the price is that the relationships get a lot less close.
So if you want to be close with me, then you have to at least let's agree on this.

[43:13] Okay, but what she's also getting is that if she pursues your path, then she is going to end up a lot less close to her own family.

[43:28] I mean, I don't think this is necessarily the case.

[43:32] It is necessarily the case, I'm afraid, based upon your argument.
Because you're saying, well, you should try these things.
And now maybe her family will be like, you know, I see the lights, Lord, above.
I see that maybe they become full end caps or whatever. That's quite unlikely.
But she says, you say, well, you should talk about these things with your family.
The odds are they probably won't agree with you. and the result of that is you'll be a lot less close.

[44:00] I mean, you should choose for yourself if that causes you to appreciate them less or not.
Maybe you value them not for what they believe in, but for what they did for you in the past.
I mean, I value people for what they believe in and I value you for what you believe in. but I don't think you will, you will have a bad deal if you judge people by these standards although it will make you a bit farther from them but I think it's worth it.

[44:39] Now does she think it's worth it? I mean when she looks at you and she says how many years have you had this conflict for how many years have you had this conflict with your family?

[44:52] For five years.

[44:54] Okay, so she looks and says, okay, five years of stress and strain and problems, with your family, right?

[45:00] Right.

[45:01] And the end result of it all is just that, well, just not really, you just end up kind of distant and a lot of conflict and a lot of craters and it doesn't really solve anything.
I mean, it has been a huge, I mean, from her view, you i think it would be look like a net negative.

[45:21] I agree with you that she probably thinks it's a negative and maybe i should show her more why it's a positive because then you get to um you get to you get to love yourself because you have integrity and i think this brings you a lot of joy and a lot of um knowledge that uh and confidence that you will choose the right thing to do well.

[45:44] The The devil's advocate position, which may be going on in her mind, is, well, you define the state as immoral.
Those who support the state are supporting immorality and violence.
And yet you're willing to have relationships with people who believe the opposite of what you believe, who support the violence you condemn as immoral.
So maybe the integrity thing is not so convincing. Right.

[46:07] Um, but I judged them, uh, less closely.
Maybe I missed them. Um, I mean, yes, I, I, I agree that there is, um, uh, there, there is always, uh, something in my heart which says, okay, how much am I supporting this, uh, immorality by choosing losing people in my life who do not disagree who who who support this um and but largely i feel that um i am pushing the world towards a better place i mean i am giving incentives for people to change their minds and to become uncaps and i think i am happy for for myself for for being that way.

[47:02] Okay so i mean this is a a very powerful and deep question i don't have a big answer for it at all so i'm not gonna i'm not trying to lead you someplace like you know syllogistically but what i will say is this how much of your beliefs are theoretical and for the future which is fine right and how many how much how many of your beliefs are to be practically implemented in the here and now.
Now, I don't know that there's any totally clear answers to that.
So, for instance, if I were to say, I will never buy groceries from anyone who isn't an ANCAP.
Can I eat? I don't know. Gonna be kind of tough, right?
I will never live in a house that wasn't built by an ANCAP.
I will never get water delivered to my house. I will never take electricity or a cell phone from anyone one who's like to exist economically we just have to make compromises and do business with people whose values are opposed to ours i i mean is that that's a fair thing to say i mean you said in the business world you will do business with those who don't agree with you right right so how much or how many of our beliefs are to be implemented absolutely in the here and now and how many of of them are, this is where I want the world to go in the long run.

[48:28] Now, the mixture of these two things is tricky.
The mixture of these two things is tricky. Now, in my own personal relationships, I wouldn't have statists myself. But I do business with people who are statists, and I live in houses built by people who aren't statists, and I fly on airplanes by people who aren't statists and all of that.
So it's not a cut-and-dried black-and-white issue.
Now, in your life, and I'm not criticizing you for this at all, I'm just pointing it out in your life with regards to your family and your friends you have said and practically implemented that your beliefs are for the future world to be more than the current relationships you have and again I know this sounds like I'm criticizing your integrity I'm not I'm genuinely not but it sounds like where you've drawn the line is more along the lines of I'm I'm very passionate for these beliefs.
I will advocate for them, but I'm not going to inflict them as moral absolutes on every relationship I have right now. Is that fair to say?

[49:38] Yes.

[49:39] Okay.

[49:40] So maybe… And that's also a question of whether I want to make that decision.

[49:47] No, you have made that decision.
And, of course, you can change your mind. But just empirically from… And again, I'm not coming from a place of purity.
I'm just like an anthropologist.
I'm sort of trying to understand your life rather than judge it in some abstract fashion. So you have made that decision.
And over the course of this conversation, I'm trying to figure out where your girlfriend is coming from.
I'm not trying to argue you about what you're doing with your relationships. Does that make sense?

[50:16] Yes.

[50:16] Okay. So in your life, you've said for a lot of your relationships, what matters is what goes on in the future. What matters is what I advocate for in the future.
It doesn't have to be absolute in my personal relationships right now.

[50:36] Yes.

[50:38] Okay. So then she looks at that and she sees that.
And of course, women have this intuition and this instinct for rationality.
Listen, it's really, really important to have access to that, in my humble opinion.
Right? So she's looking empirically at your life. I mean, men tend to, a little bit more abstract, women tend to be a little bit more empirical.
So she's looking at your life and she's saying well hang on, you have relationships in your life where you don't have a demand for agreement in your business sports friendships family you can say well it's a little more distant and this that and the other right but you still have those relationships so you are not an absolutist in these matters does that make sense yes so then why are you demanding that i be an absolutist and submit to this absolutism when you don't even do that with your own family that you've known for decades longer than you've known me?
She's just saying, why is there such strictness with me and not that same strictness with other much more long-lasting and deep relationships?

[51:53] So I think I have an answer for that because I I place the relationship with you as a relationship which ought to be much more close and much more meaningful and much more important in the terms of the projects we will share.
So this is a relationship that it's more important that we find the correct positions.

[52:23] But we don't exist just you and me. We exist with your family, with your friends, with my family, with my friends, with my colleagues at work, with your colleagues at work, with the other moms that I'm going to be raising our kids with.

[52:38] Yes, but with every one of them, we have less of an important interaction.
You and me have the biggest interaction that there could possibly be.

[52:47] Okay, so if you go to your girlfriend and you say something like this, look, We can have lots of people in our lives who significantly oppose our values.
I mean, economically, we kind of have to in order to survive in the world.
But I have my family, there'll be your family, friends, colleagues, and you'll be raising kids.
And to me, it's totally fine to be friends or friendly with people who substantially oppose your values. You don't have to inflict these arguments, these values, and so on, on them.
But for us, we need to keep the faith.
We need to be pure, in a sense, in what we accept from each other.

[53:36] Yes. I mean, I think that's convincing.

[53:39] It's sort of like sex. Like, we can hug other people, but we can't have sex with them.

[53:45] Yes.

[53:45] Right? So we can compromise with other people in the same way we hug them, but we only have sex or purity with each other. Does that sort of make sense?
Ideological or moral purity is for each other.

[53:59] Exactly, yes.

[54:00] Okay, so if she understands that accepting these beliefs doesn't alienate her from friends, family, colleagues, future women and other moms to raise kids with and so on, that may give her some comfort that you're looking for intellectual integrity in the marital relationship, but that doesn't translate to intellectual purity in every relationship, because then you're kind of alone living in a cave. Dave.

[54:29] But I did tell her that I don't expect for her to raise these issues with her family.

[54:36] I thought you said, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I thought you said that you recommended that she did, but you wouldn't expect her family to accept it.

[54:46] Um, yes, that's true. I also said that. I said both. I said, um, yes.

[54:50] You did. And they don't quite mesh, to be frank.

[54:54] Um, I don't expect her to, but I would recommend, I mean, it's her choice, but I would recommend that if she values her, if she values them, then she should point out their error.
I think, I think in an attempt to save them.

[55:08] From her perspective, if, let's say, you are an expert in something and you fail, and then you say to her, who's an amateur, you can succeed, that would be kind of confusing, right?
So if you say, listen, I've been studying, okay, how long have you been studying these matters for?

[55:34] Um myself i mean i've been reading about it i don't know five years.

[55:38] Five years okay so you have a half decade experience in this right yes and you have converted nobody in your family right yes and how many friends have come over to the ncap side of things um.

[55:58] One but uh but not very strongly.
Another one, which is a girl, actually, but only on some minor issues.
I mean, there are successes, but there are few and far between.

[56:14] Right. Now, when you look back, and if you imagine being a businessman, if you look at the time and effort and energy that you've invested in trying to change people's minds versus the number of people whose minds you've actually changed, does it seem like a productive and positive use of your time when you look back on it?

[56:34] I mean, I'm happy that I did it, because I think that if there is one who can change his mind, that is worth a thousand, because he will be free.
But you haven't got.

[56:48] Hang on, you've got people's agreement on a few smaller issues, if I understand this correctly, but you haven't had someone who has accepted all of the implications of the full principles, is that right? Right.

[57:02] Right. But I have someone who agrees with the principles, but doesn't want to, is not very interested in them.

[57:13] Okay, so they won't advocate very effectively for these principles.
They wouldn't risk any other relationships or anything like that, right?

[57:21] Exactly, yes.

[57:22] Okay. So, cost-benefit, let's be harsh, right? Right?
In the short life that we have, you've probably spent 10,000 hours trying to convince people over the last five years?

The Value of Humility

[57:35] Not as much, but I love it.

[57:37] 5,000 hours?

[57:40] Maybe. I think even less, but yes. Okay.

[57:43] A couple of thousand hours, right?

[57:44] Yeah.

[57:44] Now, when you look at the practical results, not what might have happened or saving people's souls or whatever stuff you could say, when you look at the practical results, has it been worth it?

[57:58] So okay so in the face of the external world um again so it was not okay so, it's a lot the value for money i mean the value for change is very very little but um the small change that i did i think i'm happy with it but in the internal world it really helped me to to be confident in my beliefs.

[58:25] Right, okay. You could have got that confidence just, you know, debating online or debating with people who weren't family and friends and so on, right?
I mean, it's done some harm to your relationships with your family.
You said it's created some distance and so on. Is that fair to say?

[58:40] Yes, but I don't see it as harm. I see it as a distance which is beneficial for me.

[58:48] Go on.

[58:51] I mean i was feeling like uh like a ghost in family dinners which which gets shut up and censored so i'm happy that i'm um less um spending time with them.

[59:05] Okay got it got it so there's been some benefit in in the distance for you right, okay i mean you could have chosen to exercise that distance without the conflicts though right.

[59:17] Yes but then I mean I like to if I distance myself from someone I like to explain I don't want because they yes but not necessarily.

[59:28] For five years yes, I mean, look, empirically, I mean, I'm not saying whether it would be right or wrong, but empirically, it could have happened that you have a couple of debates with your family.
They say what their position is. You say what your position is.
You recognize that they're not going to meet you in the middle.
And whatever your decision you make in terms of the amount of time and effort and energy, and I'm saying this because you said that your family was exhausted, worn out, you know, like there's got to have been a lot that you poured into this that caused a lot of friction and problems.

[1:00:02] Right. So, what's the question again?

[1:00:05] Was it worth it for the thousands of hours, the amount of conflict and so on?
Was it worth it from a cost-benefit standpoint?

[1:00:21] So, okay. So, I mean, if you look at the consequences, no.
But sometimes the right choice does not bring the good consequences.
But you still are happy that you made the right decision.
I mean, for example, I don't know.

[1:00:39] No, that's what I'm saying is looking back on it, not at the time, but looking back on it.

[1:00:49] If I knew that this would be the consequence, then I wouldn't spend so much hours and I maybe would have to explain to my family why I am distancing myself and then they will probably understand me way less and maybe think of me other stuff that they think of me right now.
But it's not that right now they think of me the things that I like them to think about me.
So I think it would be worth it to take another approach.
And also, I do regret that the way that I brought it up, I brought it up very aggressively, which even lowers the chance that they will get convinced.
So that I had regretted always. always but um but yes if any.

[1:01:42] Other consequences so with all of the skill and expertise and look of course obviously your intelligence and language skills are very high so i'm that's obviously fantastic so with all of your skill and expertise and the close relationship you had with your family it didn't go well and you have some significant regrets about the time invested and also the way that you approached it like the kind of aggressive way is that right.

[1:02:09] About the way I approach it, I have regrets. About the consequences, I don't have regrets, but I would choose to do it differently.

[1:02:20] No, but as you said, the time invested, right? It was not a very productive use of your time to keep battling for this little effect, right?

[1:02:29] Yes, okay. Yes, I think.

[1:02:33] No, listen, if you feel that thousands of hours or hundreds of hours or whatever it was that you've spent fighting after the death, it sounds like mortal combat with your family.
It's a gladiatorial, like one person's got a lion, the other one's got a pitchfork.
So I think it's fair to say, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, that it was not the best use of your time to fight for this long with your family and have them just be exhausted at the topic and not really change their minds.

[1:03:03] Yes, but I think that maybe I would have regretted it if I didn't do it, because I know that I didn't give them the chance to be free.
I mean, how could I get to this conclusion without doing it?

[1:03:15] You keep looking back, right? And then you're saying, well, I couldn't have known.

[1:03:18] Sure, sure, sure.

[1:03:19] I'm not saying looking back, right?

[1:03:21] Okay, yeah, yeah. So looking back, yes, I agree. It didn't free them, so okay. So it was a waste of time, yes. That's true.

[1:03:29] Well, whether it was a waste of time or not, it wasn't the best use of your time. Something could, you know, right? Okay.
Like, I mean, if you play, I don't know, 500 hours of a video game, it's not a total waste of your time.
You have fun and you gain some skills, but compared to other things you're doing, it might not be great. Okay.
So when it comes to your girlfriend, are you going to her saying, I have made bad decisions at times about conflicts with people.
I fought too hard. I fought too long. I approached it the wrong way, so I really can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do regarding these beliefs and other people.
I have humility having made some mistakes. And listen, if it's any consolation, brother, I have too.
So, you know, we're all in the same boat or the same trench as far as this goes.
Sometimes I've been too soft. Sometimes I've been too hard. Sometimes I've fought too little. Sometimes I've fought too much.
So it's a tough balance. But, or are you saying you have to do what I did to some degree?

[1:04:35] That's a good point. I think I'm not coming at it with enough humility.
So I'm not, yes, I'm not taking responsibility for the fact that I have made inefficient decisions.

[1:04:47] Well, I mean, to take a silly example, like if I'm 350 pounds and I say to my slender girlfriend, you have to follow my diet, wouldn't that look a little nutty?

[1:04:59] Yes, very much so.

[1:05:00] So if you have made some bad decisions, as again, we all have, every one of us who's involved in improving the world, especially at a moral level, has made bad decisions.
But they're only really bad decisions if we don't learn from them in hindsight.
But if you were to go and say, look, with all humility, I tried taking this approach with friends and family, I've had almost no effect and I've alienated and annoyed a lot of people.
I think that your girlfriend can listen to that because you're coming at her with humility saying, I don't know how to change the world. I don't even know how to change my world.

[1:05:35] Now, I know that these things are true. I don't know how to get people to believe them.
I mean, clearly, even with my own family, with close friends, I've had barely any effect.
So I don't know what we should do with these beliefs, but I'm kind of tortured because I know that they're true, but I don't know how to get people to believe them.
And because I don't know how to get people to believe them, And the last thing I'd ever do is tell you what you should do with these beliefs.
But they are true. Nonetheless, it's one of these crazy things, right?

[1:06:05] Two and two make four, and everyone says two and two makes blue cheese or something, right?
And yet it's still two and two make four. I think if you approach her with humility, and I think humility, and I still have to remind myself of this all the time, right?
So again, you know, we all have to be patient with each other because it's tough to change the world.
I think if you approach it with humility and say, yeah, I've kind of faffed this up to some degree, and I've made some real mistakes, I've had some progress, I've learned a lot, but I can't tell you how to change people's minds, because I don't know exactly how to do it.
I do know that the stuff I've done has been net negative, like there's better things I could have done with my time, and annoying people isn't a great way to get them to accept your perspectives.
Perspectives, but if you talk about the emotions and say, look, I have this desperate need for people to accept the truth.
Like, I really, I'm desperate because otherwise I feel alone, and I feel like I'm surrounded by people who don't care for the truth, who don't care for me as much as they should.
Yeah, I have this emotional need for people to, you know, I tell tell you, I was, this is many years ago, the guy who introduced me to objectivism, right?
The guy who introduced me to objectivism, I met up with him, I think it was, this is probably 15 years after we were.

[1:07:28] I met up with him in California. He was renting an apartment with his wife.
This is before they had children.
And he and I were standing on this balcony, looking out on a beautiful California evening.
Evening, and I desperately wanted to ask him if he still accepted the basic tenets of objectivism.
I was too scared to ask.

[1:08:01] And I remember you felt the same thing at times.
I was too scared to ask because if he'd said, oh, objectivism, gosh, that was just something I played around with as a a teenager i've moved far beyond that now right i'd feel crushed because then you sort of feel left behind and you haven't out like you're still playing with legos at the age of 30 or something like that you just feel like shamed embarrassed humiliated left behind and i chickened out of asking him that though i really wanted to and it's tough, tough, you know, because you really want people.
And then there were times when I would go to, say, objectivist meetups, and the people there would be like, I really don't like you guys.
Like, you don't seem to be very warm or friendly or curious, or there's not a whole lot of self knowledge around and so on, right?
And so, you know, trying to find a philosophical home is really, really tough.
And I think that part of you might want to be imposing standards that will will create this for you.
And I think you tried that already for half a decade and it didn't work.
And I think you might be trying that with your girlfriend.
And I don't think it's going to work.
Because she's going to say, you don't have empirical credibility with me on how to get people to change things.

[1:09:27] Their minds. And so if you're going to insist on this with people, we're just going to get more and more isolated because you haven't recognized that you need the humility to say what I have been trying hasn't worked.
And so the economic equivalent would be like if you had some brother who'd been working for half a decade trying to get some business started and had burned through a million dollars and still wasn't showing a profit.
In fact, it barely made any money in five years straight. He'd burned through a million dollars, had barely made any money, and he was demanding that you join his business, what would you say?

[1:10:02] No, thank you.

[1:10:04] Yeah, like, what? Now, if he were to say, listen, I've really thought about this. I kind of don't know what I'm doing. I have this idea.
I'm kind of desperate to succeed in business.
Maybe you'd give him some advice. Maybe you'd look at it. But if he was just like, well, you've got to come on board. This is the best business ever.
I know exactly what I'm doing.
You'd be like, well, no, you barely sold anything, and you spent half a decade to burn through a million dollars, right?

Resolving Disagreements Through Reason

[1:10:28] Yes, but in that case, the point of the business is to make money, whereas the point of philosophy is just being correct. You don't have to...

[1:10:37] No, no, no, no. The point of philosophy, of course, it's necessary to be correct, but the purpose of philosophy, as you've been practicing it, which I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just really trying to wrap myself into your world here, right?
The point of philosophy, as you've been practicing it, is to change people's minds, right?
Because you can be correct all on your own.
Is that fair?

[1:11:08] Yes.

[1:11:09] So you've been trying to change...

[1:11:11] I mean, I get a lot of value from philosophy even if I don't change people's minds.

[1:11:16] I get that. And that's why I said, as you've been practicing it, not as you've been researching it or thinking about it, that a lot of the practice that you've had in the realm of philosophy has been to try to change people's minds.
And you've talked, I assume, to mostly to people who were the closest to you, right?

[1:11:33] Yes.

[1:11:34] And you failed. And there's no shame in that at all. But it's a fact, right?

[1:11:41] Yeah.

[1:11:42] No, I mean, I'm not trying to put you down or anything.

[1:11:45] No, no, no, no.

[1:11:46] I admire you for trying. I really do. But you failed, right?
And if it's any consolation, I also failed.
You know, I'm pretty good at this stuff. I still completely flamed out.
So it just may not. It may be that you just can't start with the people closest to you because there's too much ego in history. I don't know, whatever, right?
And parents are very unlikely to take moral instruction from their children because parents are so used to morally instructing their children.
If their children correct them, it means that they were parenting wrong, and that's pretty tough for people to accept, right?
So to accept that you have not achieved what you wanted to achieve gives you humility to say to your girlfriend, listen, it's really important to me that you accept the truth.
Now, the truth isn't the truth because I say it. Here's my arguments, and you can take time to think about them.

[1:12:38] I need to know that we can reason together because, and it's not about the non-aggression principle, and it's not about how DROs provide private defense in a multinational environment, and it's not about how court systems work in the absence of the state, because that's not something we're ever going to deal with in the real world, in our lives.
What is important to me is that we can reason together because we're always going to end up disagreeing at times in our marriage, it's inevitable, right?
How are we going to resolve these disagreements? Now, us talking about Ancapistan or the non-aggression principle of property rights or whatever, or peaceful parenting, is a way for us to figure out how we resolve our differences.

[1:13:22] Now, if reason and evidence resolves our differences, fantastic, then we can have a very happy and wonderful marriage.
And listen, I can tell you this, I've been married for 21 years to a woman who's very rational and and we have um uh we have almost no conflicts and whatever we do we resolve according to reason and it's it's wonderful so it really does work but it's not so much about you've got to become a prophet of end cap right you've got to go out and and, proselytize to the masses but it is important to me it's and it's not just important to me for like my personal emotional thing, although the emotions do run very strong.
But it's important to me that we reason together, we reason with our children, and we can have a happy, peaceful marriage where disagreements don't escalate into aggression.
Now, I have been aggressive with my family about my beliefs, and that's not been ideal, and clearly it has not changed their minds.
But it's not so much about the belief system, which I think she is going to view as it puts a big moat between you and everyone else, but it's about, and listen, I don't expect to reason with everyone in our lives, but I do expect to reason with each other.

[1:14:34] And if we can commit to reasoning with each other, that's the basis of a peaceful and happy marriage. And then we get to reason with our children and so on, right?
And I am an advocate of the non-aggression principle.
That means we can't mutilate our children's penises.
Like we can't mutilate our boys' penises. Like that's just not...
Now, if they become adults and they want to circumcise themselves, well, that's self-ownership and if they want to get a tattoo, like we can't tattoo our babies if they want to tattoo themselves as adults.
I hope they won't, but they can because that's self-ownership, but I can't inflict that on them.
I mean, that's, you know, I would assume that to some degree that's non-negotiable because I think that kind of stuff is really horrendous for children, for boys.
And, you know, she may have a little trouble understanding it, but it's like, okay, well, imagine if I wanted to genitally mutilate your daughters, right, our little girls, our babies, right? That would be awful, right?
And that's the same thing. So, I mean, there's some things which may not be negotiable, right?
But definitely, it's like our disagreements are a dry—it's not a dry run for how we're going to alienate everyone in our lives, and I'm going to be this table-pounding ANCAP warrior that's going to drive everyone away, and we're going to end up isolated in a cave somewhere.

[1:15:54] But I do have this emotional need, and it has been frustrated by people in my life for people to agree with me. of course, if you think that you're in the right and also that morals and virtues are involved.

[1:16:07] Then of course you want people to agree with you. Like, if you had a relative who was dying of some illness, you would be desperate for them to take a medicine that would cure them.
And if they thought that medicine was poison and they refused to take it, that would be very frustrating. So that's kind of where I've been in terms of the truth in my family.
And I don't expect you to go and do what I did. In fact, I would argue that you shouldn't do what I did because it didn't work.
And it was frustrating for everyone involved, and it didn't make the progress that I wanted.
But between us, it's not about ANCAP, it's not about property rights, it's not about the non-aggression principle, it's about us reasoning our way through our disagreements.
And I can understand that if you look at me and say, well, you've got to do what I do, and you see this guy, you know, he's battled a lot for very little purpose and effect other than than to alienate friends and family and everyone's less happy as a result and then you say and then he says to me hey you got to do what i do.

[1:17:14] Right that wouldn't be very tempting at all and so i think if you approach her from that standpoint you might be surprised at how open to talking about it she is but i think right now she's saying, come and do what I do and she just looks at it empirically and says that just makes everyone miserable and I don't want to do that yeah.

[1:17:40] That's a good point. A very, very good point.
That's a lot of food for thought.

[1:17:48] Well, yeah, that would be my approach. Of course, if, you know, if she wants to chat or whatever, I'm certainly happy if you both want to chat.
But I think if you take that approach, you may be really surprised.
I mean, she sounds like a great woman in so many ways.
And she sounds like a great mother to your kids, which is also obviously very important. And maybe some more of the values and philosophy is going to come from you, the father, rather than her, the mother, right?
She's going to bring certain skills to the table as a mother, and you're going to bring certain skills together to the table as a father, and they don't have to be the same, obviously, right? right?
I mean, you're not looking for a man with a vagina, right? You're looking for a woman, which means that she's going to have complementary skills to you.
And there's some things my daughter learns from my wife and some things that she learns more from me.
And that's, I think that's natural. And that's kind of how it should be because we can't just photocopy each other and say that we're the same.
So I think if you approach it from that standpoint with the humility and acknowledging where things didn't work out for you and that you wouldn't want to reproduce produced that in her life um you might be surprised how receptive she is to the ideas if she doesn't look at complete social disaster coming from adopting these these ideas if that makes sense uh-huh.

[1:19:03] And also it makes me appreciate her because she's correct in in identifying that.

[1:19:10] You gotta have the respect for her to say but tell me why like what is this making you feel you when I talk about this and you know tell me everything that you think I might have done wrong and like just be really open to that kind of feedback because a lot of conflict is just denying legitimate feedback right and and she probably has some really good instincts about what you're doing socially that could be incredibly helpful to you and she's just not letting those because she's hanging on to those which is actually it's a good kind of integrity if that makes sense, all right, All right, well, go talk to her. What the hell are you still talking to me for?

[1:19:51] Well, thank you. Well, I think you touched on a very important point. Thank you very much.

[1:19:59] You're very welcome. I hope you'll let me know how it goes, and I obviously wish you the very best, and it sounds like you've got a very good woman in your environment, which is fantastic, and I certainly wish you both the best.
And yeah, please let me know how it goes. I'd love to hear.

[1:20:15] Okay man thank you very very much i very much appreciate it and i will let you know fantastic.

[1:20:21] Have a great night take care.

[1:20:22] Take care thank you.

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