0:00 - Introduction
5:16 - Relationship History
9:32 - First Breakup Analysis
14:25 - Parental Influence
20:06 - Incomplete Maternal Bond
35:33 - Breakup and Stalking Drama
38:41 - Judgement and Parental Involvement
49:50 - Opportunity Cost and Truthfulness
57:55 - Relationship with Parents
1:02:52 - Expressing Preferences and Childhood Dynamics
1:12:06 - Family Values
1:27:49 - Work Ethic and Parenting
1:35:39 - Choosing Money Over Relationship
1:38:59 - Breakup Reflections
1:45:07 - Regrets and Mulligans
1:46:24 - Treasuring and Trusting
1:56:40 - Unveiling Virtues
2:14:48 - Sin and Soul Saving
2:22:59 - Confronting Sinful Behavior
In our conversation, I delve into the intricacies of relationships with a caller who opens up about his recent breakup with his long-distance girlfriend, a recurring pattern in their tumultuous history. We explore the caller's childhood background, particularly focusing on his parental relationships and upbringing, aiming to uncover any influencing factors on his approach to romantic connections. Boundaries, decision-making, and emotional fusion in relationships emerge as key themes in our discussion, shedding light on the caller's struggles.
As I engage with Stefan, we dissect the concept of incomplete maternal bonding and its profound impact on one's quest for fulfillment through relationships. Stefan draws attention to the pivotal role of a secure maternal bond in shaping one's identity and attachment patterns. Through a caller's relationship dynamics, we uncover potential attachment patterns and past traumas, questioning judgment in pursuing partnerships with individuals linked to unstable histories. Our conversation underscores the importance of healthy parental relationships in fostering secure attachments in romantic contexts.
The caller opens up about a past relationship marked by complexities, revealing a lack of transparency with his parents about his romantic entanglements due to fear of their reactions. Stefan probes into the caller's family dynamics, delving into the influence of parental involvement and upbringing on his decision-making processes. Reflecting on familial dynamics and upbringing, we address concerns like a work-centric father and the impact of family dynamics on the caller's romantic choices, urging open communication for healthier relationships.
As Stefan and I navigate the dialogue, we emphasize the significance of expressing preferences and addressing underlying feelings within familial relationships. We unpack the caller's upbringing, noting discrepancies between parental actions and advice, eventually highlighting the necessity of honesty and open communication within the family unit. Our conversation offers empathy and guidance while exploring repressed emotions and the caller's family dynamics, encouraging a transparent and authentic approach to familial interactions.
Delving further into the caller's long-distance relationship hurdles, we dissect the challenges stemming from commitment issues and geographical distance leading to multiple breakups. Reflecting on the caller's quest for honesty and genuine care in relationships, we question the depth of bond and commitment in his current romantic entanglement. Emphasizing the importance of love and honesty in fostering robust relationships, we probe into motivations and underlying issues, underscoring the essence of genuine connection and mutual commitment for relational success.
In a reflective exchange, the caller discusses the aftermath of his breakup, unveiling conversations about the relationship and his emotional investment. As we explore themes of virtues, self-respect, Catholicism, and the impact of sin on actions, the dialogue expands into a profound discussion on fostering genuine love and commitment through self-reflection and moral integrity. Encouraging self-awareness and accountability, I stress the significance of virtues in nurturing authentic connections, delving into the complexities of faith, love, and personal evolution amidst moral quandaries.
[0:00] Hello.
[0:00] Alrighty. How's it going? Sorry, we already went through this. I'm all ears. Just lay it on me. How can I best help?
[0:10] I guess I'll just start with what's been going on recently. So my girlfriend broke up with me here this past Tuesday. And I don't know. I don't really know how to take it. I guess this is about the third time we've broken up, and I know that doesn't look good on paper, but we are also in a long-distance relationship for about a year now, or were, I guess.
[0:47] I'm sorry, could you just back off your mic a bit? I'm getting a lot of breathing noises. Or just move it below your mouth or something like that.
[0:54] Right, right. Is that better? no.
[0:58] Now that's a bit too far.
[0:59] Away too far right there that's great that good okay perfect um so yeah um i don't know i just don't, yeah i really don't know what to do um i guess so we broke up and then i guess we kind of talked She was kind of saying how just because of little things kind of breaking up, it wasn't over anything, any specific large thing. It's just a feeling of not knowing if we're right for each other and just kind of jumping to the conclusion of, you know, that if, if, if it doesn't feel right at certain times, then it's not right at all. I guess that's kind of her perspective.
[1:54] Interesting. Okay. How long have you guys been going out off and on?
[1:59] Um, so we started dating, um, Not this year, but last year, January 28th.
[2:10] Yeah, almost two and a half years, right?
[2:13] Yeah, yeah. And then we started talking about November of the previous year. So we kind of knew each other, met on a dating app. And yeah, I don't know. I really liked spending time with her. It was kind of a weird situation, too, where it's like... I guess my hometown's about three hours away from where I went to university. So I planned on moving home, just kind of save money. And I'm an accountant anyways. So accountants try to get their CPA certified public accountant. And I just wanted to be at home because I knew my mom would kind of cook for me and kind of help with the chores while I was kind of studying for that test, if that makes any sense. Uh-huh. So I guess we met and we dated for about a month after about a month, you know, everything was really good. And then I'm, I'm, the first time we broke up was on Valentine's Day, actually.
[3:25] Like shortly after you started dating?
[3:27] Dating yeah so like i guess for a month yeah yeah um i guess i was just concerned about because i've i've been in a previous relationship that like uh did long distance for like a year and it's just like a um and.
[3:44] Are you like mid-20s.
[3:45] Uh i'm 23 23 okay got it yeah yeah and then uh she's she's 22 too so okay um but yeah i did long distance before um like right out of high school um going into college and i dated a girl for a year and i don't know i just at that time i i had the feeling of you know long distance is just like slowly kind of losing the relationship over time oh yeah no long distances you know it's.
[4:16] Just trash i mean you just you just might as well just take luck take life and flush it down the toilet as far as that.
[4:21] Goes.
[4:22] I mean, it almost never works out, but you sure as can waste it. You can waste a crap load of time.
[4:27] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, that's, and it was on Valentine's Day too, and she was always very upset. I mean, you know.
[4:38] That's definitely bad. So she broke up with you on Valentine's Day, or you broke up with her?
[4:41] I broke up with her on Valentine's Day.
[4:43] And why did you break up with her?
[4:45] Just like she so, I guess if I say city, it's not going to ruin like, you know, I know you don't have any names and comments. Stay off cities? Okay. Okay, well, she was basically moving four hours in the opposite direction that I would be moving, you know. Well, okay, so basically the city where you're in was in the middle, and then I was going three hours one way, and she was going four hours the other way.
[5:15] Oh my gosh.
[5:16] Yeah.
[5:17] The relationship was, and it was fairly new, right? You guys have been going out for less than two months. So she was moving away, so the relationship wasn't particularly high priority for her, right? You were moving away too.
[5:32] Well, she... Well, she, I guess, it was kind of before we dated, she applied for this job, I believe. I guess it's hard to tell exactly off of memory. But I remember her telling me that she got this job and just being like heartbroken just because I knew that it's, well, yeah, just because I knew that we were just going to be so far apart from each other, you know?
[6:05] Yeah, and you didn't want to get into this long distance stuff again. And there was no particular chance for you guys moving closer for the next couple of years, right?
[6:13] Right, yeah. I mean, at least for, yeah.
[6:16] You broke up. I mean, that makes sense to me. I mean, you're moving far apart and it's going to be years till you can come close together. You don't want to do this long distance garbage. So you broke up.
[6:26] Yeah. And then, uh, after two days, I guess, um, she came over to pick up some stuff and I kind of asked her if we could start the relationship again.
[6:39] Um, and why did you do that?
[6:43] Uh i don't know i just.
[6:46] No no come on come on come on you've been a listener right how long have you listened to what i do for um.
[6:52] Well more recently i guess i've listened quite a bit um a.
[6:59] Couple years right a couple years uh.
[7:01] Maybe i once yeah a year or two i guess okay.
[7:05] So uh how how often does i don't know about important things in your life work and you've You've heard this, everyone says, I don't know, and then I ask them two more times, and they're like, it all comes out, right? So you know, right?
[7:17] Right.
[7:21] So why did you get back together with her?
[7:26] I just, I don't know. I thought she was a special person. I mean, I don't know.
[7:31] Come on, man. You broke up with her because you had a certain decision process. What changed that you wanted to get back together with her? Well, she was a special person two days prior, right? On Valentine's Day.
[7:45] Yeah.
[7:45] So, was it basically she's moving away, you're moving away, what's the point, right? And now that hadn't changed in the two days, right?
[7:57] Right.
[7:58] So, what changed? Something had to change. I'm not criticizing you, right? I mean, obviously, you know, I'm just trying to figure it out, right?
[8:10] Well i mean not i mean okay well i guess not talking to her um i mean i did see her as my best friend at the time.
[8:18] No come on you've been going out for like a month.
[8:26] Like uh i guess sex you know it's kind of out of the equation is that what you're kind of getting at.
[8:32] I don't know i'm not i'm trying to get at the truth i don't have an agenda here i'm just trying trying to figure things out what is she was your best friend you you dated her for i mean i know you talked a little bit since the previous november but hadn't you dated her for a month and change, yeah okay so what's with this merging fusion stuff she's your best friend what does that mean about your other friends i.
[8:54] Don't i'm okay maybe not best friend but i.
[8:57] Enjoyed being you said it i'm just i'm not trying to pick pick on you i'm just trying to understand right.
[9:02] Right um Um, well, uh, I don't know. She was always a joy to be around. Um, she'd make me happy. All right.
[9:13] How long did you wait to, uh, after you met to have sex?
[9:19] Uh, we had sex on the first night we met.
[9:22] Right. Why? I mean, do you, do you think that's a good idea in general?
[9:31] No, no, I don't. Okay.
[9:32] Okay, so why did you do that?
[9:44] I don't know, I guess... I don't know, I guess just falling to urges? I don't know, I guess that's kind of a cop-out, though.
[9:59] Well, no, look, it's fine. I mean, I don't know if you've heard me or the call-in shows, but generally having sex right away is a completely retarded idea, right?
[10:11] Right.
[10:12] Because you don't build up the trust, and your body thinks you're married.
[10:18] Right.
[10:19] Right, and you start bonding at a physical level before you've learned to trust each other at a moral, intellectual, and emotional level, right? Right?
[10:29] Right.
[10:30] So, I mean, this is, I guess, what I'm kind of curious about, right? And this may sound harsh, and I apologize for that, and I don't mean this in any negative way. So, you did things wrong, right? Like, you have sex right away, you do this weird fusion thing where she becomes super spectacular, important, best-friendly person over a couple of weeks. You break up with her, you make up with her again, you don't know why. Like, it's all just chaos, right?
[10:58] Yeah.
[10:59] Now, you listen to a philosophical show, right? And look, we're not perfect. We all make mistakes. So, you know, this is fine. This is not any sort of big criticism, right? But you do everything philosophically kind of wrong, right? And then what do you do? Then you call me.
[11:21] Oh, yeah.
[11:22] You know, like your nutritionist says, hey, man, you know, you've got diabetes. You shouldn't do X, Y, and Z. Your nutritionist, your doctor all say this, right? And then you go out and do X, Y, and Z, and then you call your nutritionist from the hospital.
[11:39] Right.
[11:39] What is the nutritionist supposed to say? Because everyone calls me later. Like, I just had a call. Sorry, it's not just you. Like, I had to call last night from a guy who's been listening for years and married, you know, the wrong woman. And she cheated on him within a couple of months of getting married. And then he calls me because he hasn't slept in two days, right? Never called. He's been listening to me for seven years, slightly longer than his relationship. Does he call me at any time during those seven years? Nope. Just gets married after six and a half years and then calls me only when disaster has struck, right?
[12:15] Right.
[12:16] So listen, I'm here for the convo. I'll help as best I can. but what i need from you is don't tell me you don't know stuff that you did because then there's nothing to talk about right right i said so let's go back to childhood because it's hard to understand these things without that right so what was your parents relationship like uh.
[12:39] My parents were high school sweethearts um i guess my my mom was a year older than my dad um, They basically met and kind of stayed together. I don't know. I guess I don't know the details of it.
[13:00] No, that's fine.
[13:01] You don't need to. They just kind of cohabitated, I guess.
[13:05] Oh, so they didn't get married. They lived together?
[13:08] Yeah. My dad would tell me how they'd get the question all the time, when are you going to get married, when are you going to get married? And basically one day my mom kind of put her foot down saying, you know what are we doing here and he married my mom um and they've been married ever since um, and what's.
[13:31] Their relationship like.
[13:34] Uh they were they well they work together um so my dad does landscaping when i was a kid my mom worked as a bookkeeper um for a moving company and then about halfway through my childhood childhood, she started working with my dad.
[13:55] And who took care of you? Sorry, how old were you when your mother started working?
[14:08] I can't really remember a time that there wasn't a babysitter.
[14:13] Okay, so why do you think your mother worked and paid for a babysitter rather than staying home with you?
[14:26] I mean, my mind tells me that it's money reasons. My family's not very wealthy.
[14:36] No, but she has to pay taxes. She has to pay the expenses of working. She has to pay the babysitter. I mean, it probably wasn't a huge financial change. And you can, you know, So did you say your father works from home as well?
[14:50] Uh, he, yeah. So he kind of like has a shop next to our house anyways.
[14:57] Okay. Got it.
[14:58] Yeah.
[14:59] Okay. So yeah. Tell me, understand. So do you, do you have siblings?
[15:04] Uh, I have a brother. Yes.
[15:07] Older or younger?
[15:08] Younger.
[15:09] Okay. So your mother had to have more than a babysitter, right? I mean, if she's working during the day, a babysitter is for like two hours, three hours at night, right? What is the story with the babysitter stuff? Because, I mean, that's a lot of time, right? And two kids, right?
[15:29] Well, I mean, it would be like after school or...
[15:32] No, no, but when you were very little.
[15:34] Oh, when I was very little? I guess I don't really recall... I don't know. I think, I guess I don't really know if my mom didn't, like when my mom started working or.
[15:51] Well, sorry. I thought you had said.
[15:53] I'm sorry.
[15:53] That you didn't remember a time when your mother was home with you.
[16:00] Yeah, but I guess I don't really remember too far into my childhood. to like i guess i can remember like elementary school um then going to like an after school daycare program and then like at five you know mom would come pick me up uh anything before, you know preschool or kindergarten i can't really i don't really know i guess.
[16:25] Okay so you were in daycare or you were other things were happening that your mother wasn't home with you, right?
[16:36] Right.
[16:36] Okay.
[16:37] Well, I mean, she'd come pick me up at like five when she'd get off work.
[16:42] Okay. I understand that somebody picked you up from Medicare and abandoned you there 24-7. I understand that. Right. I understand that. And again, and so your theory is that it has something to do with money, right?
[17:01] Yes.
[17:03] Right. And do you think that's true? Like it was impossible for her to stay home? Usually there has to be some kind of, you know, there's some kind of choices involved, right?
[17:18] Well, I think, I guess I don't know exactly the time when my dad started his business. Yeah, I don't know. um, I guess I don't really know why. I mean, from, I guess, talking to my dad, it always sounded like it was a financial decision.
[17:52] Well, yeah, but do you think that's the case? I mean, do you think that there was, I mean, clearly there was some way if your mother had wanted it for her to be home, right? Like if it was absolutely essential, right? Let's say you were sick or something and you needed constant care. Your mom would have quit her job and you would have saved money on babysitters and daycare, right? Two kids and daycare is expensive, right?
[18:15] Right.
[18:16] So how much, I mean, and she was a bookkeeper, right? Which is not much money.
[18:21] Well, I think, well, okay. So my brother, he's handicapped. He has SMA disease.
[18:32] I don't know what that is.
[18:34] Um so spinal muscular atrophy basically means that his muscles don't grow with his body right so he's bound to a wheelchair oh gosh so i if i had to guess it would have to do with you know paying for health care um that that would be my assumption anyways i guess i don't know i don't I don't know if she got health insurance from the company or what, but obviously if my dad has his own company... Yeah, I don't know.
[19:10] Yeah, again, I don't know. I mean, particularly if a child is disabled, right?
[19:18] Right.
[19:19] I mean, I don't know if you know why I'm asking any of this. I know it sounds kind of obscure.
[19:25] No, it's... I've listened to the call-in shows to know that it'll come to something.
[19:32] Okay, yeah. So, I mean, do you want us to get to that something now, or do you want to do it later?
[19:39] Um, well, you think you have enough to get to something?
[19:43] Well, no, like, so you, like, there's this thing called fusion, right? So you meet someone, you have no boundaries, no barriers, no skepticism. You just, they're the greatest thing ever, and you just, you merge, and then life becomes unbearable without them. And, like, that's something like what happened to you with this woman, as far as I understand it.
[20:07] Yeah i would.
[20:08] Say so so that's incomplete maternal bond, what do you have and there's nothing freudian about it right it it's just that, you have a an unstable or incomplete bond with your mother so you're a, you know a big old vat of need for merging together because a baby's merge with their mothers and become like they stay i mean they come come from inside their mothers and the mothers are around them and breastfeeding them and eye contact and cuddling and right and there's that completion of the merging of identity because i mean a baby doesn't have his own separate identity at all right identity is really something that only kicks in in the mid-teens. And so the baby is merged with the mother and that's where security comes from. And when you have a very strong bond with the mother...
[21:11] Then you don't tend to fuse in this kind of way with new women, because you don't have this hunger for completion through the feminine. I know this sounds very abstract and all of that, but a hunger for completion through the female, you know, there's that cheesy line, it's an old movie now, I guess, Jerry Maguire, you complete me. And it's like, no, that's terrible. It's like the worst thing ever, but it comes from a lack of a strong bond with the mother. Because the child is not, the baby is not an individual. The baby does not have an identity. The baby is one with the mother. And with that firm foundation, the baby can then grow and fall in love and so on. But the love is not needy. the love is based upon virtue and respect and admiration and lust and desire like all of these good things, but if I understand this correctly and I don't want to tell you your own experience so if I go astray obviously tell me and we'll revise or I'll revise but, when you got together with this woman you felt a powerful euphoria and you couldn't stop thinking about her she was the answer to your problem she was the greatest thing ever.
[22:36] And you needed her like oxygen within a couple of weeks of meeting her again if that's not the case I.
[22:44] Wouldn't say that it was like I needed her I don't think it was that strong like a need I guess at that point anyway Well.
[22:59] You did refer to her as your best friend within a couple of weeks of meeting her.
[23:03] Yeah, I think that might have been a... I don't know if that accurately... No, okay, that's fine.
[23:12] Okay, so maybe not like...
[23:13] Like the friendship was very strong.
[23:17] No, no, no, absolutely not. The friendship was not very strong. Right? That belief that you are now completed and you can merge without judgment, without evaluation, that's incomplete parenting. That's a hunger for completion through the female, which is, to me, entirely in accordance with daycare and rotational babysitters. They come and go. Because you can't trust, you can't fall into the feminine and use it as a foundation to grow from.
[23:56] I see.
[23:58] So, my belief, and I could be wrong, so the question is, why did you get back together with her two days after breaking up? I mean, I have a theory. If you've had any more thoughts, your experience is certainly more important than my theories.
[24:19] My thought was that, because at the time we broke up, she was saying that we just didn't give it Like we didn't even try, um, distance. And I, I guess I, you know, I obviously wanted her back. Um, and I, I basically, um, she came over to like pick up some stuff and I asked if she wanted to give it another try and she agreed. Right.
[24:49] I mean, this doesn't explain anything. That's just telling me what happened. The why, like, I know what happened, right? You broke up with her and then you wanted her back. Right.
[24:57] Right.
[24:57] Okay, so that's the what happened, but the question is the why, right?
[25:01] Right.
[25:02] I mean, I have a theory. It could be wrong. But I'm happy to share it, unless you have more that you want to add to the why.
[25:10] I mean, I don't really think I have more to add.
[25:14] Okay, so we can try this on for size and see if it fits. So you broke up with her in the hopes that she would not move. Right? So you wanted her to stay. She wouldn't stay, so you broke up with her as a way to punish and train her in a way so that she would stay. But then when she decided to move anyway, that all crumbled and you reattached. it's like a move i don't mean it cold-hearted or like but right it's like out of desperation, it's like well if you're going to move away i'm breaking up with you on valentine's day that's how much it hurts me and then you hope she'll say oh gosh you know if it's that important to you i will absolutely give up this job and we'll stay and we'll work on a relationship but But when she didn't do that, you're like, oh, that didn't work. Let's stay together. That's how much I need you.
[26:13] I don't know if it was like that necessarily, because I do remember accepting that she was going to be moving.
[26:22] No, but you didn't. Because you broke up with her, and then when she was still going to move, you wanted to get back together, though nothing had changed, right?
[26:32] Right.
[26:34] So, saying I'd accepted that she was going to move, nothing changed, how is it the case that you break up with her and two days later, though nothing has changed, you're desperate to get back together with her? The breaking up thing can't have been real. Because what's real is the attachment. We had great sex. She's my best friend. She's magical and wonderful and perfect. But she's moving away. I'm breaking up with her. Oh, she's still going to move away? I need her back. Do you see what I mean? There's a kind of addiction there.
[27:10] Yeah, I have.
[27:11] You know, addicts do this all the time, right? Like, they pour their alcohol down the sink, and then they go out and buy alcohol. They smash their cigarettes, and then they go and buy more cigarettes, right?
[27:20] Right.
[27:21] You get angry, and then the need reasserts itself.
[27:25] And I mean, that makes sense, because eventually we did break up here at the beginning of the year as well, and it was very much like a panic to get back together with her.
[27:41] Yeah, panic, right, panic. Because there's an addiction based upon incomplete mothering. now why would she get back together with you right first of all why is she having sex on the first date with the guy she's meeting for the first time that's very dangerous, right i mean did you guys do uh std panels before you got together.
[28:06] Uh she did uh i guess i did not um.
[28:10] Okay so she's coming to have sex with the guy she has sex with him the first day I mean you could have been putting on a facade you could have been a stalker you could have been a psycho and she didn't demand that you have an STD panel.
[28:25] Well she I guess she knew me from other friends and then I guess along.
[28:31] With her history that doesn't mean she knows your medical history right right right right, so that means that she doesn't have a very strongly developed sense of self-protection, which is usually incomplete fathering. So what's her relationship like with her dad?
[28:57] Her dad is a teacher. I guess she's from a small town. Her relationship with her dad, they talk a lot. They're really into sports together. Um, let's see, I don't know her dad's her dad's like seems to always be there but he's very much of uh this guy who you know he kind of just tunes into sports and I guess I've been around I haven't been around their family a whole lot but when I would travel to go see her um he just it didn't seem Seemed like there's very many conversations outside of like sports and things that don't really matter, I guess. You know, nothing deep, it seems.
[30:03] Well, I mean, he knew that you and his daughter were quite serious, right?
[30:09] Right.
[30:10] And did he do any vetting of you? Did he ask you about your family, about your plans, your lives, your intentions or anything like that?
[30:18] Uh, no, he did not.
[30:20] Okay, so I don't understand what that is all about. Like, I genuinely, I mean, I have a daughter, right?
[30:26] Right.
[30:26] She's 15 and a half years old. And the idea that she's going to date some guy, and, you know, it being pretty serious, right? And I'm not going to show any interest in him or try to figure out anything about him is incomprehensible to me.
[30:45] Uh, yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I guess you just...
[30:51] And do you know why fathers put a lot of time, effort, and energy into trying to vet the boys that their daughters date?
[31:02] So they don't get into a bad relationship, I assume?
[31:06] Yeah, because they love their daughters.
[31:08] Right.
[31:08] So if he doesn't do any vetting, frankly, he doesn't give a shit about his daughter.
[31:13] Hmm.
[31:16] They're not close, he's not a protector, and he doesn't care. I mean, sorry, I will die on that hill, right? Like, that's just not caring.
[31:28] Right.
[31:30] Is his daughter, I mean, is your girlfriend or your ex-girlfriend, is she quite physically attractive?
[31:38] I mean, I think so, but I guess she's probably about a six or seven.
[31:42] Okay. So that's just not caring, right? It's the job of the father to help vet the boyfriends, right?
[31:54] Right.
[31:54] Because he knows more about male nature than the mother does, right? It's the job of the mother to help vet the girlfriends and it's the job of the father to help vet the boyfriends, right?
[32:04] Right.
[32:04] Because young people are full of lust and there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's fine. It's great, in fact, but it's dangerous, You can waste a lot of time. You can get into a lot of difficult situations. You can mess things up. STDs, unwanted pregnancies, heartbreak, stalking. There's a lot of danger out there, right?
[32:23] Right.
[32:24] So…, Did either of her parents, I mean, her father didn't, did her mom try and vet you in any way or just like, hey, here's a guy over. Okay, here, let's have some chips.
[32:36] I mean, it's probably more leaning towards the, you know, offer me a bowl of chips. But, I mean, she did, you know, ask me about my parents and what they do and, you know, kind of what, I guess, what I was doing after college. knowledge um but i guess as far as like uh i don't know i guess i've never been in a situation where it's like you know what you're talking about of i guess i don't know what really entails like being vetted um i don't know if that's yeah i don't know.
[33:14] I don't know what the hell parents are doing these days honestly it's completely bewildering to me.
[33:18] Okay so So.
[33:20] Did her parents know that you guys broke up within a couple of weeks of getting together?
[33:30] They did, yes. They knew we started dating and then broke up. Yes.
[33:35] Right. And when they talked with you or met with you, did they ever have any questions about that? Or did they basically pretend that that never happened or didn't exist?
[33:47] Just pretend it didn't happen, didn't exist, pretty much.
[33:50] Okay, so they don't care about her. Like, straight up, man. I mean, I'm not going to pull any punches. They don't care. I mean, she's now wasted over two years of her youth. I don't mean wasted in that dating you is a waste, but it didn't lead anywhere. She's not better off. She's now heartbroken. And now the next guy is going to have to deal with the heartbreak. So she's worse off, right?
[34:28] Yeah, and I mean, you know, you're talking... I mean, also, I guess there's a little history. Like, when we first met, she was dating this kind of psycho guy.
[34:39] Who I can remember... Let's hear about this.
[34:46] Um and i i also do wonder if that's why she was kind of attached to me in the first place um i mean she dated this guy for about a year and it was kind of a situation of uh, you know they'd i guess they'd hang out um and then when she finally broke it off and wanted to move on, he kind of, you know, did the whole, uh, I'm going to kill myself, you know, talking about suicide and, you know, you, I need you, I need you.
[35:22] I'm sorry. And how long had they broken up when you came along?
[35:29] I think I was, I was pretty far into the breakup at that point.
[35:34] he moved away from the city and but he i can't i can't remember the day that he was basically spam calling her and her phone wouldn't stop ringing and i basically asked who it was and she kind of gave me the rundown and i ended up picking up the phone and talking to the guy saying like dude you gotta like stop this like wait so she was still.
[35:56] Going through the breakup when you were together.
[35:59] No, not going through the breakup. More like going through the harassment of him.
[36:06] Okay, so how long ago had she broken off things with him when you came along?
[36:13] I'd say... I believe she broke up with him about mid-summer, and we met late fall.
[36:24] Oh, so he's still stalking her a couple of months after they break up?
[36:29] Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
[36:33] And this is after he threatened suicide and so on, right?
[36:37] Yes.
[36:39] Bro, what are you doing? You're getting together with a girl whose ex-boyfriend had threatened to kill himself and was stalking her. like seriously I mean what if somebody else had told you this story and said hey I really want to date this girl she dated a total psycho, and he's still stalking her, and your friend said I want to date this girl and she's a six, not that that makes a huge difference but you know There's not even the excuse of, you know, uber hottie, right?
[37:22] Right, right.
[37:24] So what would you say?
[37:26] I would say I don't think that's a good idea.
[37:30] Right. And why?
[37:33] Well, because clearly she's not very good at vetting people she's dating.
[37:40] And she dated the psycho for a year. And she's still wrestling with the breakup.
[37:45] Up well i guess i don't i don't they she she said that they didn't really date i guess they dated for like a month but then it was like they were together you know i don't know i guess my generation everybody's like no let's not you know let's not get.
[37:57] Into this mess are you saying that she had an on and off again relationship with a guy who was unstable.
[38:02] Is that.
[38:05] Is that your argument.
[38:10] It's kind of reflecting back on me does that.
[38:12] Seem familiar in any way yeah, because i mean that's you right i'm not.
[38:23] Saying the psycho part but right, right.
[38:42] So where's your judgment? And also, did your parents help vet her at all?
[38:53] No, not really. I guess maybe a little more than her parents. I mean, my parents are very... You know, they asked her a lot more questions like what she wants out of life and i guess sorry.
[39:09] This is before you date like you started talk sorry to interrupt you started talking with her in november and then you started dating in january so during the time from november to january you told your parents i met this great girl online or whatever and did they ask, about her like more details before you met and slept together.
[39:34] Um well no because they didn't know about her because i mean i guess we we slept together the first night so they didn't even.
[39:41] Know no no sorry maybe i wasn't clear okay november you start talking with her right yep you don't sleep together till january is that right no.
[39:50] We slept together in uh november.
[39:53] Oh in november i'm so sorry i thought you oh so i'm sorry i thought you started dating in January yes.
[40:01] We started dating in January but November I'm I you know we matched on the dating app I basically saw her at the bar, one of her friends said that I was a good guy and then she had me over and we yeah that sex.
[40:22] So that's not the beginning of your relationship.
[40:29] No that's not when we started dating but i guess.
[40:31] Oh my god it's like you're the worst cliches of the gay community we had sex match and then decided to start dating, all right so she had sex with you the first night after she just tried to get away from a psycho off and on for a year.
[40:55] Right. And she did tell me later on that she was kind of doing that to try to move on from him.
[41:05] So you were a way that she was going to move on so she was still attached to the other guy.
[41:15] I guess that's what that kind of implies, her saying that, right?
[41:19] Sorry, I don't want to get this wrong. I mean, if she says that she's having sex with you in order to move on from the other guy, there's still an attachment there, right?
[41:30] Yeah, I'd say so.
[41:32] Okay, so it wasn't over with the other guy. Because she was still attached to him, and she used you to break her attachment to the psycho, right?
[41:45] Right.
[41:46] Okay. So when did you find out about the psycho?
[41:55] Probably about a month in. I mean, we were pretty much sleeping together quite often during those three months before we started dating.
[42:09] Sorry, what is the relationship? It's just a young thing. what is the relationship where you're sleeping together regularly but you're not dating is that what they call a situationship i don't know what is that.
[42:21] Yeah that's yeah i guess that's just pretty much yeah i mean it wasn't like it was pretty in my opinion it was just it was already like a relationship because i mean we'd we'd basically go to school and then go see each other pretty much every other night um so.
[42:45] How is that not a relationship.
[42:52] Yeah it's i guess it's you know it's a relationship but without the you know saying we're dating thing all.
[43:02] Right i i don't know what any of this stuff means i'm just going to chalk Rock myself up as too effing old to understand it. All right. So you're dating this girl, and was it in December, say, that you found out about the psycho?
[43:19] Yeah, probably that, or late November, yeah.
[43:22] Okay, so within, you said, a month of sleeping together, right?
[43:26] Yep. Okay.
[43:28] So you slept with her and you didn't know anything about her prior boyfriends or any current situationships she's got going on or anything like that, right?
[43:39] I knew about her. I mean, we both went to the gym on campus and I guess I knew her friends and her friends knew me.
[43:52] That's a great way to not answer my question.
[43:55] I'm sorry, can you repeat it, please?
[43:57] Sure. So you slept with her without finding out about any of her prior boyfriends and whether she was in any entanglements at the present, right? You're sleeping with her.
[44:08] Right, yeah.
[44:09] I mean, she literally could have been dating someone else at the same time because you weren't exclusive, is that right?
[44:15] Yes, that's true.
[44:16] Okay. So, you then, after a month, how did the psycho thing come up? Did you ask her about prior boyfriends, or did this just emerge like a whale in the ocean? Or, like, how did this come about?
[44:29] Well, I don't... See, I guess... That's where... I don't think she was really attached to him because it was more of... And he was literally calling from his mom's phone or something.
[44:45] Oh, to get through her blocks?
[44:47] Yes, yes. Okay, so the reason you asked her.
[44:50] You asked her, who the hell's this, right?
[44:52] Yeah.
[44:52] And she says, this is the guy I slept with you to get over him. Or something like that. I'm not that lucky, I suppose.
[45:01] No, she did not tell me until probably... I don't know, maybe winter of last year.
[45:12] Oh, that she slept with you to get over this guy?
[45:15] Yeah.
[45:17] Okay. So, a month in, you find out that this psycho's stalking her, right?
[45:24] Right.
[45:25] And this is a month or two before you become boyfriend-girlfriend, right?
[45:29] Right.
[45:30] Okay. So, at what point did you tell your parents about this relationship?
[45:38] I think I told my parents, I guess my birthday is like in December and she ended up getting me some stuff and I told them about her then.
[45:52] Oh, so you told your parents, I've been sleeping with this girl for a couple months, but we're not boyfriend girlfriend? Yeah.
[45:59] Uh, well, I guess I told her, I told them that I was talking to her at the time.
[46:05] Oh, so you kind of lied about the relationship, right? I don't mean in some big condemnatory way, but isn't that the case?
[46:13] Yes, yes, I did.
[46:14] And did you tell your parents that she's got this psycho ex and he's stalking her and all this kind of stuff?
[46:23] No, no, I did not.
[46:24] Why not?
[46:28] Probably could yeah because it would make her look bad right yeah.
[46:32] But it would have saved you a lot of time because you've broken up now right right so why are you lying to your parents and again i don't mean there's some big moral thing right i mean i think it's not great, but what's the point i mean why why lie.
[46:57] I don't know. I guess any relationship that I ever had that I've been sleeping with a girl, I just have never, you know, it's just more of telling your parents that you're talking to them.
[47:12] But, I mean, they're parents. They would ask questions, right?
[47:15] Right.
[47:16] Have you met up? Are you sleeping together? They would ask questions. They know young men and young women, right?
[47:22] Well, they'd have never asked me if I was sleeping with a girl.
[47:26] Okay, but they would ask you questions about her. Where's she from? What's her major? What's her family like? Right, right. And did they ask you that kind of stuff?
[47:37] Yeah, yeah, they did. I mean, I guess I didn't meet her parents until later that spring. um but yeah yeah they asked questions about her but i guess i just kind of omitted the crazy x portion now.
[47:55] Do you know why you would lie to your parents about this stuff.
[48:01] Um, I guess I've kind of just done that with all my relationships.
[48:08] Okay. So that just begs the question. What's the next question?
[48:11] Right. Right.
[48:12] Why have you lied to them about all of your relationships?
[48:16] Because they'd be, uh, I don't know. I just feel like they'd be weirded out. I don't know. Or upset. I don't know.
[48:30] Okay. But you do know. why don't why don't you tell the truth i mean because in this way you're not at all close to your parents right you actually you have a negative relationship with them so a non-relationship is exactly what you and i had before we talked today right just non-non-relationship right because we didn't know each other but you have a negative relationship with your parents in that you're pretending to tell them the truth but kind of lying through your teeth about important things right? So you're misdirecting them. It's a negative relationship. Like you and I never told the truth to each other before today. We never lied to each other before today. So we had a non-relationship. But when you're in a relationship where people are asking you questions and you're lying, actively lying, it's a negative relationship. So why not tell them the truth. I mean, let me ask you this. When you look back now, two and a half years later, would it have been better if you'd have told the truth and they'd have given you some wisdom that would have you not go down this road?
[49:50] Because then there could have been another girl who was better, right that you would have because this is all the opportunity cost like you you've poured two and a half years into this relationship that went up in flames, which is two and a half years and and now you're going to need another year to get over it probably right right so you know that's three and a half years and if you'd met the right girl you could be married and planning a family by now. So it's the opportunity cost of the breakup that's really important, and that's what parents are there to help you with. So you don't piss away two and a half years on something that breaks your heart and breaks her heart and renders you unfit for dating for at least another year. Probably, right? Because the right girl could have floated past while you were circling this lava drain, right? So I ask you again, Again, would it have been better, do you think, if you had talked to your parents early, they'd given you better advice, and you had looked for other women, rather than this two and a half year off and on thing?
[51:00] Yeah, it would have been better.
[51:02] Okay. So, and is it generally, I mean, you've listened to my show for a year or two or whatever it is. Because, I mean, you've heard me say that generally telling the truth is a good thing, right? The first virtue is honesty, right?
[51:17] Right.
[51:18] And you lied, right?
[51:22] Right.
[51:23] And the question is, and again, I'm not a big one for, oh, that's so bad, because that doesn't give you any knowledge. The question is, why did you lie? Usually there's only one reason why we lie to people. Because we're angry at them. Because by lying to your parents, you are taking away from them their ability to protect you. And that's what parents want to do. We want to protect our children. So by lying to your parents, you're causing them great pain. A, because you're lying, and B, because through lying, you are stripping from them their ability to protect you. You know, like you think of these presidential kids, they sort of sneak out the window and they dodge their Secret Service detail and they go and get their asses kidnapped or something, right? Well, that's frustrating because they're taking away from the Secret Service their ability to protect the kids, right? So you're taking away from your parents their ability to protect you by lying to them about the nature of your relationship. Does that make sense?
[52:45] Yeah, that makes sense.
[52:47] So why would you want to frustrate and hurt your parents in this way? Because you're angry at them.
[52:56] Right?
[52:58] I mean, that's why we cause pain in others if we're not honest about, right? It's because we're angry with them.
[53:05] Right.
[53:05] If that makes sense. so and maybe this is true maybe this is not it's my general approach doesn't mean it's right but if it's possible that you are angry with your parents what might you be angry about.
[53:23] Well definitely i'm not really i mean i guess they were around in my childhood but i mean a majority of the time they were working.
[53:42] Sorry, I'm not sure if this is a theory or a possibility or something you feel might be true, or I'm not saying you have to answer that immediately, all of it, but I'm not sure Right.
[53:52] I think it's probably, yeah I mean, I'd say it's most likely something to do with that but, yeah I mean my dad I mean we didn't take like vacations when I was a kid or I guess I'd see other kids doing that, I don't know I guess I've never I never really thought I was mad at my parents.
[54:36] But you understand that lying to people, especially your parents, and you ending up heartbroken is not great for them.
[54:46] Right.
[54:47] Right?
[54:49] Right.
[54:52] So, you're certainly not close, right? No. Because if you're close, I mean, you know, maybe you withhold a little bit here and there, obviously graphic details or obviously things like that. But as a whole, if you're close, you tell the truth, and you would want to tell the truth because you want their wisdom, right?
[55:15] Right.
[55:16] Okay. So, do you think if you had told the truth, they would have been helpful in the situation? situation. They would have said, oh, you know, this is kind of a red flag and I don't know about this one and there seems to be something not quite right and let's talk more about it and all that, right?
[55:40] Yeah, I think they'd probably, you know, have some more questions at the least.
[55:45] Yeah, Yeah, I think that's probably fair to say, right? Yeah. Okay. Now, of course, helping someone is, you know, it's a challenging and complicated thing, right? And one of the questions I think that parents would have would be something like, well, gee, why are you making these incredibly unwise decisions to begin with? And that would be an important question, right? It can be tough for parents to help children if the children are just making, like, bad decisions, like, I met this girl, slept with her the first day or whatever, right? And then we didn't date and I didn't know much about her and, right? So, then your parents have to say, gee, I wonder how he ended up this way. And that's tough, right?
[56:32] Right.
[56:33] Now, part of the toughness is things beyond your control, which is your brother's ailments and so on, which, of course, would have drawn parental resources to your brother at your expense. And that's, you know, just a big, tragic, sad situation. And I sympathize with all of that. And, you know, there's some things that can't hugely be helped, but, you know, other things that can be, right?
[56:54] Right.
[56:54] And also, if you're aware of that, you know, there's an unbalanced amount of resources going to one kid versus the other that, you know, you try and find ways to rectify that. You go away with your parents individually for a day and just spend time with them. And, you know, they try and fix things that way, if that makes sense.
[57:11] Right.
[57:11] And of course, a disabled child or a child with physical challenges, there's lots of expertise out there about how to help the child who's, in a sense, ignored. And there's lots of expertise out there, because a lot of families have to deal with this kind of stuff.
[57:33] Right.
[57:34] So, I don't know if your parents ever availed themselves. Are they part of a church, or...? A religious community?
[57:43] We used to go to church. Well, I guess we used to go to a Lutheran church, but then it got kind of taken over by the ELCA.
[57:55] And now my parents refuse to go to church because they do the whole gay marriage and all that fun stuff.
[58:04] Yeah, so there's things that would go against more fundamentalist sensibilities. Okay. And do they have extended family to help with the kids and with your brother's physical ailments?
[58:15] My grandparents would take care of me quite a bit, me and my brother. Okay. So.
[58:21] Got it. Now, are you aware of any of the issues that you have regarding how you were parented?
[58:34] I mean, my, uh, like it, like direct issues that I'm aware of.
[58:45] Well, I mean, every child has some criticisms of, of their parents and it's sort of a natural and healthy thing. So if I were to say to you, you know, uh, what are the issues that you have with your parents? What would you say? I mean, that you're aware of. obviously you can only speak to the ones that you're aware of what would you say or if your parents sat down and said you know um we just we need to talk about how you were raised there was some good there was some bad and we just want to get your feedback and your thoughts and all of that what would you say um.
[59:18] I mean i'd probably say something like we we never really spent time like doing any sort of recreation you know and I don't know if that's I mean that's probably definitely I don't know if it's because my my brother being handicapped they didn't want him to feel left out you know because it's kind of hard to but.
[59:43] I'm sure your brother didn't want you to have a deprived childhood because of his ailments wouldn't he say like let's not have two Two for the price of one of kids who can't do sports.
[59:54] Right, right.
[59:55] I mean, I'm sure he would have said, please go. You know, like, I'm sad that I can't, but I'm even sadder if you can't as well.
[1:00:03] Right.
[1:00:04] So it's not that.
[1:00:11] I guess i mean from what i understand from, my dad's childhood it was very much like a work work work environment he was a farmer with my grandpa and it's i my dad kind of has the same attitude where it's just kind of work constantly, um
[1:00:33] Well but he would have spent time with his father on the farm working together right.
[1:00:38] Yeah nice so i spent a good amount of time with his father yeah i spent a good amount of time working with my dad and stuff like that yeah yeah because i mean he did landscaping and i would help him um with that and he would also do snow removal so i'd help him with that as well and.
[1:00:58] From what age did you start doing that.
[1:00:59] I guess, probably not as frequent but like when i was 14 probably around there okay i mean that's that's long past you.
[1:01:14] Know some foundation of personality formation now did.
[1:01:17] You get.
[1:01:18] A chance or did you say to your parents i would like to spend more time i would like to do recreational stuff i would like to spend more time together i feel like we don't do that kind of stuff together as a family so when When you were a kid, I'm sure that you were aware that things weren't going the way that you wanted. And did you talk about it with your parents?
[1:01:38] No.
[1:01:39] Why not?
[1:01:42] Because I didn't want to pressure them. I don't know.
[1:01:47] So, but why would you expressing your preference be some kind of terrible suffering for them? you're a kid, you're supposed to have preferences and they're supposed to try and satisfy them, right?
[1:02:06] Right.
[1:02:07] So why would it be the case that you expressing preferences would be bad?
[1:02:15] Because it would be interfering with what they were doing?
[1:02:19] Well, but they chose to have children, right? So you can't choose to have children and then say, those kids better not express any preferences that go against what I want, right? That's not but that's not reasonable, right?
[1:02:31] Right.
[1:02:32] Okay, so why would you not say something? Because this is the origin of the lying, right? Withholding things from your parents, right? And listen, I'm not blaming you at all as a kid, right? As an adult, you know, we have different standards and options. As a kid, that's my question.
[1:02:53] Why wouldn't you say, I would really like this?
[1:03:08] I mean, I'm thinking really hard, but I can't think of.
[1:03:10] Uh, you were trained out of expressing preferences, right?
[1:03:18] Right.
[1:03:18] How? I mean, I'll just tell you from my standpoint, I couldn't express preferences to my mom because she always seemed like she was hanging on by a thread and she'd just scream and blow up and lose it and all that kind of stuff. So I was just trained out of having preferences as a kid. It probably wasn't that case with you, but there's some way in which you got trained out of having preferences because kids have preferences, a lot of them, and they should.
[1:03:45] Um, I guess, uh, like being, getting trained from them not being around. So you don't really, well, that's not a really good answer. Cause I mean, you could still ask. Yeah, then when they come home.
[1:04:00] You say, gee, I really want to. Now, did they come home, were they like, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just trying to give you help here, if it doesn't match, it doesn't match, but were, like when they came home, were they just like, oh, I'm so tired and no energy, and therefore you can't say, hey, let's go hit some baseballs at the Diamond? Like, was it like that?
[1:04:20] Yeah, it was, I mean, my dad was pretty much working. I mean, my dad's worked like 24-7 all the time, it seems, when I was a kid.
[1:04:31] And was that a money thing?
[1:04:35] I mean, I think it had to have been because, I mean, a little bit about my dad's childhood. childhood um he was going to school and then his parents or my grandparents i guess, um basically pressured him to like come back to work because they were going to lose the farm if he didn't um is what i understand him from okay so what he told me always.
[1:05:08] Gone and when he home when he was home he was just exhausted is that right.
[1:05:11] Yeah something to that effect yeah but.
[1:05:15] But didn't that mean that your mother had to deal with your brother's ailment?
[1:05:20] Yes, yeah.
[1:05:22] Okay. And your mother was gone during the day as well, right?
[1:05:28] Right, yeah.
[1:05:29] Now, did that mean that the babysitters had to deal with your brother's ailment?
[1:05:34] Yes.
[1:05:36] But doesn't that require a bit more expertise than your average babysitter? I'm not obviously an expert in any way on the ailment, but it seems to me that that would require a bit more expertise than your average 14-year-old babysitter would possess.
[1:05:47] Ass i mean i can't i can't really recall if she had any specific i think she she might have had some special training because she was like um the babysitter yeah i i mean i guess i'm a kid i was a kid at the time so it's harder exactly recall that means the babysitter is even more expensive right right yes means.
[1:06:09] That the the value of your mother going to work goes down even further right.
[1:06:12] Right and.
[1:06:15] Did you have multiple babysitters i mean it wasn't just one throughout your whole childhood i mean i guess it could.
[1:06:20] Be but it would be unusual, it was it was pretty much just one um outside of you know like the group daycare thing um and from what age did.
[1:06:35] You have this babysitter i mean that's pretty.
[1:06:37] Wild because normally.
[1:06:38] Many babysitters kind of come and go but uh so what age to what age did you have the babysitter.
[1:06:44] Let's see i gotta think about that um, maybe maybe uh i always forget what age relates to what grade but i guess when i was in fourth fourth, fifth grade to maybe a little past middle school, almost, I'd say.
[1:07:09] So grade four, five to seven?
[1:07:12] Yeah, something around there, yeah.
[1:07:14] A couple of years, right?
[1:07:15] Yeah, a couple of years, yeah.
[1:07:17] Okay. And what about outside of that? I guess it's a little hazy, right?
[1:07:22] Yeah, I mean, outside of that, it was mainly going to the after-school program.
[1:07:28] Right, right. Right.
[1:07:29] And my brother's not to the point where it's like he really needs any specific care. It's just more like he needs. So it's a progressive disease. So like as you when he was younger, it was easier for him to move. And then now he's like has very little movement.
[1:07:47] That's tough. And what's the prognosis?
[1:07:51] Uh, what are you.
[1:07:53] Well, what's going to, how is it going to play out the disease?
[1:07:59] Um, well, I mean, the, the, so he's, he's doing this new treatment that seems to have stopped like, um, cause as you get older, it, it kind of regresses. Um, what do you mean? Like it, uh, it will, it used to get worse. Like your, your muscles would just get worse and worse until your body give out and i think the oh.
[1:08:21] And you would die like even your heart.
[1:08:23] Muscle yeah okay right yeah so like 26 30 is like that's the upper limb right yeah but now now they now he's getting like a shot in his spine that's supposed to stop that regression anyways okay.
[1:08:38] Okay so during your childhood it wasn't as bad that's sort of what.
[1:08:42] I'm getting right yeah yeah okay Okay.
[1:08:46] Now, when your mom came home, how was her energy and focus on you guys?
[1:08:55] I mean, she was, you know, she wasn't, my mom's always been like a, pleasant, I don't know, like uplifting type thing. It wasn't like my dad, where my dad would come home and be exhausted, you know. I can remember him like passing out in front of the tv and trying to get the remote to wake up and go you know hey i'm watching that um where my mom was very much like you know she'd be doing chores around the house um playing with us i guess so.
[1:09:33] What um what kind of in what ways would she interact with you i mean i'm let's just focus on you because i'm on the phone with you and your brother.
[1:09:41] So in what ways.
[1:09:42] Would your mother interact with you when you were a kid.
[1:09:49] Um, I mean, like what, what activities would we do? Uh, I guess she, uh, I was a swimmer, so she would take me to swim. She'd go to my meets. Interacting with you. I mean, interacting with you. Um.
[1:10:13] You know, play Monopoly, play hide and go seek. uh tell stories to each other go to the park uh you go on hikes like just you know to take you bowling like and they're just interacting with you right.
[1:10:28] We go i don't know i guess a majority of my memory just goes up to like driving around town with her um i'm sure we i'm sure like as a young kid.
[1:10:41] No no because that's you accompanying her on her errands. That's not the same as her interacting with you, like at your level, things you like to do and so on.
[1:10:58] Um, I mean, I can remember going to like a hotel with my mom and going swimming with her, me and my brother. Um, but there wasn't, I guess there wasn't, I mean, I can remember some board games, but I guess there wasn't like a consistent, like, this is what we do.
[1:11:23] Did you get the sense that your parents took a great pleasure in your company? sought you out, wanted to do stuff together?
[1:11:33] When they were around me, yes.
[1:11:36] And in what way did they show that?
[1:11:42] Well, they'd want, I mean, they'd always want to, like, watch movies, and, I don't know, they'd want me around to talk about whatever.
[1:12:07] I mean, it seems like pretty thin gruel. I could be wrong about this, of course. Let me ask you this. Can you think of a piece of advice that your parents gave you about life that you look back on or think about now and still find a value? you like did they give you advice on work or or friendships or school work or work ethic or, morals or like did they give you advice on how to live or feedback or thoughts on how to live that you find helpful even up to the present oh.
[1:12:38] Yeah definitely um i mean my dad's still today i mean we have pretty deep conversations i mean i guess i guess sometimes i'm not always truthful with him but, yeah like my dad instilled in me a hard work ethic and for my mom I picked up a pretty loving attitude I guess.
[1:13:02] Sorry by by hard work ethic do you mean self-discipline yeah like you have no self-discipline in your relationships right just meet the girl and have sex with her, i mean wouldn't that be self-discipline yeah deferring gratification you know that kind of thing right.
[1:13:25] I guess what i'm what i mean more is like towards like working at school or, like there wasn't a whole lot of talking about girls.
[1:13:33] Okay so okay so he taught you a good work ethic uh what else and what sorry a good work ethic could be just modeling hard work but in terms of like the philosophy of like what's work for and, and why would you have a good work ethic? What's the point of it?
[1:13:50] Yeah. And also just, uh, you know, give, giving your efforts. Um, I mean, when I was a swimmer, he, uh, there was, I guess towards the beginning I wanted to quit and he, he said, you know, to stick it through.
[1:14:04] Um, okay. Stick it through. It's not life advice. So what's life advice that he's given you that you can think of as valuable to this day? I'm not saying there isn't any. I just want to make sure I understand.
[1:14:16] Like, I guess the advice of, you know, seeing something through to its end, even when it's...
[1:14:23] But he didn't do that with parenting. Where's his work ethic with parenting? That's what I don't understand. You have children. You should work at parenting. It's more important than just mowing grass or whatever he's doing. That's what I'm trying to understand. Where's work ethic with parenting? Where's stick it through and put your all in with parenting?
[1:14:50] I think from his perspective, parenting was more of, you know, I guess we would have long talks about life and... But as far as why he wasn't there, I don't know. Um...
[1:15:18] But wouldn't you, I mean, I'm trying to figure out why you're not telling your parents the truth. I mean, you'd have some resentment if your father says it's super important to do a good job and put your all in and don't quit, and then he comes home at nine o'clock at night and passes out in front of the TV and doesn't interact with you or your brother much, right?
[1:15:37] Right.
[1:15:38] Like, how much effort you put into things is really, really important, and he didn't put much effort into you, right? So he's got a work ethic for strangers. You know, someone's, Mrs. Jones down the street wants me to put stones in her driveway. I'll do that. Twelve hours a day. I'll put huge amounts of work into strangers' requirements and requests. But I won't listen to what my kids want. Isn't there a certain amount of resentment in that?
[1:16:17] Yeah, I mean, I can remember being a kid, and I had a swim meet or something, and my mom would be there, but my dad would be there like 50% of the time because he'd be out working.
[1:16:35] But being in a swim meet while nice is not interacting with you.
[1:16:40] Right.
[1:16:42] So, your father's a workaholic who ignores parenting duties, or doesn't want to spend, like he wants to go and work, so he goes and works, he doesn't want to spend as much time one-on-one with you, so he doesn't, right?
[1:16:57] Right.
[1:16:59] And how does that make you feel, that your father worked to please just about everyone, but not so much you? everyone else got his time for money but you couldn't pay him so you got very little.
[1:17:19] It's pretty upsetting. Yeah. Sorry.
[1:17:38] No, that's okay. Listen, man, I'm with you.
[1:17:40] Brother.
[1:17:40] I'm here to try and help. I really sympathize. So tell me what you're feeling.
[1:17:49] I mean, I don't know, I, I would, you know, I was very hurt as a kid, my dad not being, around working a lot, but I always told my, I guess I was telling myself that he had to and, but I, I
[1:18:31] Mean that's an excuse and a cope right because that's not an option as a parent, to say well I just have to work 12 hours a day 6 days a week or whatever he was doing right like that's not an option, That's not something that's on the table. If you want to work 12 hours a day, six days a week, don't have kids.
[1:18:55] Right.
[1:18:56] But if you have kids, you can't do that. There's no excuse for it. I mean, if you get drafted, I don't know what, right? But he wasn't drafted, right? So there's no excuse. Now, I mean, my guess would be, and I obviously don't know, but my guess would be he didn't have a childhood, so he didn't know how to relate to kids. Yeah I mean there's still no excuse, right because he would know that he didn't have a childhood and therefore he would know that he needs to work on relating to kids or your mother would say listen honey you know like you're really not doing the right thing with regards to these kids right like you've got to spend more time with them and right whatever we need to do to figure out how you can sort that out and solve that we've got to do right, because you know your sons need you.
[1:19:44] Right, yeah and i.
[1:19:48] Also i would imagine that your mother's love for your father was not quite as high as it should be because if i was working 12 hours a day six days a week my wife would say i miss you stop working so much i want to have a marriage with you i want to enjoy your company i want us to go do stuff i want to chat i want to like she'd be like no i don't want to trade time with you for money i.
[1:20:09] Mean i guess we would do stuff um my parents owned like a lake lot for a while Well, like we would go to the lake and... What?
[1:20:17] Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Back up a second, brother. Your parents owned a lake lot?
[1:20:25] Yeah.
[1:20:26] Why am I a little stunned at this?
[1:20:32] Because money...
[1:20:34] Apparently money was so tight your dad had to work all the time. Oh, wait, they own a lake lot.
[1:20:39] Hmm.
[1:20:40] Why didn't they sell the lake lot and spend time with their kids? Thank you. Those things are expensive.
[1:20:52] Right, yeah.
[1:20:54] So, I'm sorry, I'm just a little baffled.
[1:21:03] Yeah, and I don't know that I've ever thought of it that way.
[1:21:12] So, your parents, I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, and I'm perfectly happy to be corrected, but your parents lied to you, and that's why you lied to them. Your parents lied to you and said, well, we have to work this hard because we need the money. Mom's got to go to work. Daddy's got to work this hard. We need the money. It's like, that's not true. There's always options. Even if it means going to both sets of grandparents and saying, listen, we've got this kid kid who's got this medical issue like please can you help us out with some money that way we can be home with the kids because you know our youngest son in particular has enough difficulty with his, muscle degenerative disease that we really really want to spend every moment we can with him because of course your parents i assume thought that you're or believed and it may be the case but but we'll find out over time hope it's not but they thought that your brother would make it to like 25, right?
[1:22:16] Right.
[1:22:17] Right. So wouldn't they want to spend every moment they could with him? He's going to die. Like, wouldn't you say, I don't care about a lake lot and bookkeeping and endless work on landscaping. I need to spend time with my son because he hasn't got much. that I don't understand.
[1:22:55] That doesn't make sense to me either.
[1:23:01] So there's not a lot of honesty I think in this family, How do you get along with your brother?
[1:23:23] Pretty good. I try to help him to the best that I can. I live at home with my parents right now.
[1:23:30] I guess you're not telling him much about your dating life, though, because he's not Mr. Dating, right?
[1:23:39] Yeah, it's more of I don't want to... you know he's he it's hard for him as it is you know i mean i tell him about it but it's i don't go and you know i mean he's he hasn't dated anyone ever so it's.
[1:23:53] Right you know yeah and i go with massive sympathy for that that's just very hard right, now what about friends did your friends did you tell the truth about the girl with your friends did you tell the truth i mean other than me right did you tell the truth about the girl with anyone.
[1:24:18] Yeah i told my friends um you.
[1:24:21] Told your friends i'm dating this i'm sleeping with this girl we slept on the first date and you know found out a couple of weeks later she's dating this psycho who's stalking her day and night yeah and what did they say well.
[1:24:34] It was, I guess I'm trying to defend her right now, but it wasn't like she was dating him. It was more like she wanted to get on with her life.
[1:24:46] Did I say she was dating him?
[1:24:47] I did not.
[1:24:48] I said, he's stalking her.
[1:24:51] Right.
[1:24:52] Right? And it was kind of day and night, right? Middle of the night, right?
[1:24:56] I mean, I think all my friends were kind of surprised.
[1:24:59] Okay. So when you told your friend that you slept with her on the first date and you found out a couple, She only told you a couple of weeks later that she slept with you to get over her ex and he's stalking her and all of that. And what did your friend say?
[1:25:13] Um, just, I guess they were just kind of in awe. I guess they didn't really provide a perspective on anything.
[1:25:23] Okay so they didn't give you any advice now her friends i'm sorry your friends um, i don't know to think of the right word so your friends knew her and said she's a good girl right she's a good girl to date she's the right girl she's a great girl like your friend and her friends know you and said the same about you you're a good guy to date that's.
[1:25:47] A little backwards um i I guess my friends didn't know her. Like, her friends knew me, but my friends didn't know her, no.
[1:25:59] Okay, so she came in without any vetting to your life, right?
[1:26:04] Right, yes.
[1:26:04] Okay, got it. Now, her friends, by saying, her friends knew you, is that right? No, your friends knew, her friends knew you?
[1:26:16] Yes, yeah.
[1:26:17] So her friends vouched for her, right, and said she's a good person to date. To you?
[1:26:28] Yeah, I'd say they did that. I wouldn't say that's before, or well, yeah, okay, before, like when we were in that three-month whatever, before January, yes.
[1:26:38] Yeah, but, I mean, so her friends vetted her and vouched for her and said she's a good girl to date, and And they knew, I assume that they knew about the stalker X, right?
[1:26:54] I guess I've never heard them talk about him, but yeah.
[1:26:57] No, but they would know, right?
[1:26:58] Yeah.
[1:26:58] Because they'd known her for a while. So she knows she dated this guy off and on and he was still pursuing her, so to speak, right?
[1:27:05] Right.
[1:27:06] Okay. So they lied to you, right? Because they said she's a good girl to date and they didn't say, but you know, there is this thing, she's got this. X, who's kind of unstable and stalking her, right? So they lied to you, right?
[1:27:21] Right.
[1:27:26] So, I mean, what's missing in your life is honesty, isn't it? Your parents to you, you to your parents, your friends to you, you to your friends. Isn't there just, I mean, honesty and what's missing is love, is genuinely caring for people. Because when you genuinely care for people, you don't want to lie to them, because it's bad for them. Right?
[1:27:49] Right.
[1:27:50] I mean, if you get older, you have a daughter, and then she's dating some crazy dangerous guy, and she lies to you about it, and you're really frustrated because you really want to help protect her, right?
[1:28:06] Right.
[1:28:09] So, I think you need to have people in your life that you love and care for enough that you don't want to lie to them. but all of this distance vague orbit of each other and you can just lie and it doesn't matter and the idea of telling the truth is just kind of weird and appalling like i don't think that's how you want to live is it i mean in the long run.
[1:28:30] No so.
[1:28:34] What was the final breakup thing that happened two days ago.
[1:28:37] So i guess i'm going to talk about the second one because it'll provide context for what's going on now is it the second of three yeah so we broke up here this january um and it was just kind of at the point where it's like we every single time we didn't really talk about the future um like it was just like this ongoing thing of how are we gonna get to the same city or be around each other.
[1:29:14] Because you were still seven hours apart at this point, right?
[1:29:17] Yes, yeah. And, you know, she's... So then it was at this point where I was, I got to the point where I was like, you know, I don't think this is gonna work because we can't seem to work something out to get closer to each other.
[1:29:39] Sorry, what would you work out? I don't know. I mean, she's going to school, you're going to school, but you work out.
[1:29:45] Well, just like if, if she was going to come to me or I was coming to her, if we meet somewhere in the middle.
[1:29:50] You can work that out. You just go to her. Like you, you, you can do that. I mean, I mean, maybe not in the middle of a semester, but you can do that pretty easily. Right. I mean, not saying easily, like it's easy to transfer the credits and stuff like that, but you can just move to where she is. Right.
[1:30:06] I, I, uh, missed the point. Um, so we, we graduated here. so it was.
[1:30:12] Oh so you graduated so yeah you just find a job where she is right right so I'm not sure what the difficulty would be.
[1:30:22] Well, I was of the mind of, you know, living at home with my parents, saving money, and then it would just be easier for me to study.
[1:30:30] Oh, so you chose money over the relationship the way your dad did. Like, you chose money over the relationship with her the way that your dad chose money over his relationship with you.
[1:30:40] Hmm.
[1:30:41] Right? Isn't that the case?
[1:30:43] Right.
[1:30:44] Okay, so you chose money over her, and then what happened?
[1:30:49] And then we broke up um so she and then you know we broke up and i i basically had this like what have i done um oh same thing as you had but yeah with the february.
[1:31:03] 14th breakup okay.
[1:31:04] Yeah like my mind was you know i just threw away like a great girl yeah yeah yeah okay.
[1:31:12] And how long did it take for you after you did you break up with her.
[1:31:15] I i initiated it but she was very much in agreeance and said that she was going to kind of do the same okay so you broke up.
[1:31:24] With her and then how long did it take for you to want her back again.
[1:31:27] Um i'd say about a week oh.
[1:31:31] So better than two days i guess so about a week later you're like oh my god worst thing ever let's get back together and then you did get back together right.
[1:31:38] Right and.
[1:31:40] Was there any solution to the problem of being seven hours apart.
[1:31:43] Yes there was um so she started talking about moving um moving basically more in the middle uh what so okay so we were both we were both seven hours away right and we went to school, and kind of in the middle right and then what's she was talking about what's.
[1:32:09] That's the point and moving from seven to three and a half hours away. Why wouldn't you just move to where you are?
[1:32:22] I don't know okay i guess i'm i was very much of the mindset like you could move in with me my parents yeah that's.
[1:32:29] I'm moving with you and your parents that's the plan yeah yeah while you take care of your crippled brother right um romantic, um okay so she's not even going to move to the same city as you or the same town she's just going to move somewhat closer sir she.
[1:32:50] Was going to move an hour away from where we went to school.
[1:32:53] Okay but what is that relative to you that's.
[1:32:57] Four hours away from me.
[1:32:59] Okay so you go from seven hours to four hours that's your big that's how passionate your love is like you guys don't care about each other that much honestly i gotta be frank with you right you don't you don't otherwise there wouldn't be any of this hedging bullshit right you're not exactly romeo and juliet here right well.
[1:33:22] I'm sure you're gonna slam me for this but um i think it was like uh it felt like we were both like hedging our bet of.
[1:33:32] Like whether this would work out or not i'm not slamming you for it it's just, you're not that committed you don't care about it like if you really love someone what happens.
[1:33:43] You move for him yeah.
[1:33:44] You move it doesn't matter who moves you just you have to be together right right right, you know when i got married my wife already had a place it was a long way from where i lived i just moved there of course right i mean be together, so you guys don't have there's not much passion here i mean i guess there's some sex some history you know i'm sure you like certain aspects about each other but there's not there's no real commitment here right well.
[1:34:15] I mean we we we're committed in the sense that like we'd spend almost a majority of the weekends trying to visit each other um.
[1:34:25] So but in terms of committing isn't trying to see each other and a lot of that look you and i both know a lot of long-distance relationship is driven by lust right right right you don't see each other for a while Well, your juices back up, you need release, you go have sex, and there's nothing real about the relationship because you're not dealing with any daily stuff or any normal stuff. It's all just like smashing and dinners out and it's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a real relationship.
[1:34:54] Right, right.
[1:34:56] And if you take the sex out of it, what's there?
[1:35:04] Like, what is our relationship without the sex?
[1:35:06] Yeah. It's clearly not enough that you'll move.
[1:35:15] Well, she, I mean.
[1:35:16] I mean, men used to cross the oceans to be with the women they loved at a time when that was six weeks and a 20% chance of dying. Men, I guess my battlefields to get for the women they love, you guys can't figure out how to move closer together.
[1:35:32] Well, my thought was, is I was, I was going to move back home with my parents. This, this was my plan was to move back home with my parents.
[1:35:40] It'd be easier for me to study for, get my CPA. And then after that, we'd figure something out, move together. And that's what I expressed to her as well.
[1:35:51] Okay. So your plan is not just be with her no matter what?
[1:35:57] Well that's what i've i mean that's what how i how i felt but and.
[1:36:03] How no it's not.
[1:36:04] How you felt otherwise you would have acted on it so yeah how.
[1:36:06] Long was it going to be that you were going to do the cpa thing live with your parents and then like how a year or two years like how long what are you talking here.
[1:36:14] Like just about this time i'd say i i have one more you have to take four tests and I have three done and I have to get one more done.
[1:36:23] Yes. I don't know what that means. So how long?
[1:36:25] Uh, so I'd say July is probably when I'll be done.
[1:36:29] When did it start? Knowing where it ends doesn't matter. When did it start?
[1:36:33] Oh, when did it start? Um, I guess right. You know, I graduated last May. So about that time. Yeah.
[1:36:42] So you said to this woman, um, I'm going to live seven, seven hours apart from you for another year plus, right? It's May to July, right? So 14 months. I'm going to live seven hours away for another year and two months. And then, you know, we'll just try and figure something out.
[1:37:05] Yeah, I guess.
[1:37:07] Does that seem appealing to you? Is that love?
[1:37:12] No.
[1:37:15] I mean, do you know what love is? I mean, it doesn't sound like your parents are really attached to you. You had a long-distance relationship before that failed, and you guys are just kind of circling at a middle distance. Eh, maybe, let's see, if life brings us closer together, you know, we'll, you know, figure something out later, and, like, where's the Where's the passion? Where's the bond?
[1:37:38] Well, that's so, that's what I'm getting to. So then we got back together for the second time.
[1:37:49] And why did you get back together? I mean, nothing had changed, right? So why did you get back together? Just need and insecurity and lust.
[1:38:02] I mean, at that point, you know, I would say that we were best friends i mean we did spend hours talking a day um and.
[1:38:12] That was last summer you got back together.
[1:38:14] Sorry what'd you say was.
[1:38:17] That last summer you got back together.
[1:38:20] Uh, no, that would have been this, this, uh, end of winter, beginning of spring. So we, so we broke up January at the beginning of the year and then we got back together. Uh, let's see, probably beginning of February.
[1:38:34] Oh, I thought it was like a week. So end of January, beginning of February.
[1:38:37] Well I it was it took a week for me to basically try to contact her again and obviously she was she was hesitant um, and so I okay so you worked it a bit and.
[1:38:52] Then so you got back together in February and then you broke up again now it's May right.
[1:38:58] Right okay.
[1:38:59] And two days ago and what happened uh two days ago.
[1:39:05] So well okay so we broke up last week Tuesday and she, basically was kind of saying what she said when we broke up the second time how like she felt that we were just two different people what? in the fact that like she would say that we're two different people but then I'd ask her to like okay like what does that mean? I guess you're two different people.
[1:39:33] I mean you're not Siamese fucking twins you're like what do you.
[1:39:36] Mean you're two different.
[1:39:36] People of course you're two different people what does that mean.
[1:39:38] Right um and like you don't share the same values and she wouldn't even cite anything like value she would cite that there's just like a lot of little things that add up and okay so she doesn't give you any reason.
[1:39:53] As to why she wanted to break up.
[1:39:54] Well she yeah she'd say like um yeah i mean she'd give me like oh well you're not really into sports and i'm you know but she's He's known that about you for two.
[1:40:06] And a half years, right? So that's not, right? Right. That's not the case.
[1:40:09] Right.
[1:40:11] I mean, that'd be like me breaking up with my wife. You're short. It's like, yeah, I know. And you've known that.
[1:40:18] So anything else? Um. I mean, I, I, she, the main reason why she broke up that she was saying that, you know, she, she, at times when we're together and we'd be together, she could see me, she could see herself marrying me, but then, you know, other times she could not see the same thing. And she basically said that it's not right if she can't see me, she can't see it all the time.
[1:40:55] Okay, so her pair bond comes and goes, right?
[1:40:59] I guess, yeah.
[1:41:01] Okay. So, there's no specific reason, and you didn't do anything in particular, for her to break up with you, right?
[1:41:11] No. Okay.
[1:41:13] So, I don't know for sure, but if a woman doesn't give you a specific reason why she's breaking up with you, there's always and forever one other reason.
[1:41:25] What is that?
[1:41:26] There's another guy.
[1:41:33] See, I've thought that, but I...
[1:41:38] Now, it may not be another guy like immediate, but there's someone in the vicinity. She's right.
[1:41:48] I just don't think that's the case.
[1:41:53] I mean I don't know obviously I didn't know that would be my first guess and the reason for that would be that you know, she needs to pair bond she needs to have someone who's there for her and you guys have already been long distance pretty much for two and a half years right and there's still more to go right, so what's she supposed to do just like hang around and cross her fingers and hope that you'll commit right And she's not willing to commit.
[1:42:25] And I mean, she like, okay, so we broke up Tuesday and then Friday we met up and she kind of gave me some of my stuff or whatever. And we sat and we talked for about two hours. Um, and it's like, we were, I was, we were just talking over the relationship and she would say things like, um, you know, I could see us having like a good marriage, but not, not like perfect. and she she's very much of uh expressing like um like one thing she said was she still believes in fairy tales type thing like um yeah and then this is lies and.
[1:43:04] She wants uh.
[1:43:04] Yeah grand passion right and this is how open.
[1:43:08] Sorry go ahead and.
[1:43:09] This is something that she expressed when we broke up a second time uh for the second time like she would talk about her parents passion and romance yeah Yeah, she'd said her parents, they never had an issue and they were long distance. She would say they never fought.
[1:43:25] Okay, so, sorry, I want to make sure in the interest of time. So, how open do you think your heart is emotionally?
[1:43:35] What do you mean?
[1:43:38] Well, I'm on the receiving end of some real heartbreak and except for one time where your voice wobbled, how much emotion do you think you've expressed in our conversation? Like, how open do you think you are emotionally?
[1:43:53] I'd say I'm pretty open. I mean, there's a couple times that I almost lost it talking about her as well. But I guess I try to control that.
[1:44:06] Okay, so that's not being open emotionally, right?
[1:44:10] I see.
[1:44:11] Because you want me to care about your breakup, right?
[1:44:15] Right.
[1:44:15] And I want to care about your breakup. But if you haven't really committed to your girlfriend in two and a half years, how am I supposed to care about your breakup?
[1:44:25] Right.
[1:44:27] So if you don't care enough about her, how am I supposed to care enough about her? If you don't care about her enough to say, I would swim the oceans and climb the mountains to be with you, my love, right? If you're just like, well, you know, let's take another year, 14 months, see how it goes, right? If you're kind of indifferent and not passionate about her, why the hell would I care that you broke up? It's like, well, I had this job. I kind of hated working there. I kind of liked it at times, but I would never really commit. And then I lost that job. And oh, no, I lost it. You know what I mean? It's kind of weird, right?
[1:45:06] Right.
[1:45:08] So that's what I'm like. Do you regret not being passionate and committed to her?
[1:45:15] Yeah.
[1:45:16] Okay. Okay, so that's something I can really sympathize with that.
[1:45:19] Right? Right. Right?
[1:45:22] So if you could go and get your do-over, get your mulligan, right?
[1:45:26] Right.
[1:45:27] What would you do differently if you wanted to stay with her?
[1:45:33] Just move with her.
[1:45:35] Yeah, I can't live without you. We've got to be together. Let's get married. Or whatever, right? Okay. So why didn't you? you. And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have, I don't know, right? It could have been a disaster for all I know, but I'm just curious, why didn't you?
[1:46:05] I guess I was, I don't know. I was, sorry.
[1:46:15] No, it's fine. You were kind of playing it cool and calculated and I dare say tabulating things like an accountant, right?
[1:46:23] Yeah.
[1:46:25] You know, I mean, when my wife comes home, I hear the car in the driveway. way i run up and i jump up and down in front of the hallway give her a big hug how great she's like that's 22 years almost right right look i mean man to man women really need to feel treasured, right they really need to feel like you'd part the oceans to get to them right because they have to commit to you and having kids and being vulnerable and losing their sexual market value because they're pregnant and having babies and breastfeeding and their boobs fall down and write their butt sacks and they have to really, really trust you. And what is it that women trust? They trust the man's attachment. They trust the man's commitment.
[1:47:07] Right.
[1:47:08] And you're kind of playing it distant and cool, aren't you?
[1:47:12] Yeah.
[1:47:13] So why? And again, I mean this openly and curiously with great sympathy, but why? What's the price of being passionate? What's the price of, running to her.
[1:47:28] I can't live without you.
[1:47:30] I have to be with you.
[1:47:38] I don't know. I don't know. Money? But, I mean, that...
[1:47:47] Well, yeah. Money? So, for a man to say, I'm choosing money over you, is like, the woman understanding you're only with her because she's young and pretty. And what that means is that if another younger, prettier woman comes along, then you'll dump her and take that younger, prettier woman.
[1:48:08] Right.
[1:48:09] Right? Because if it's about money, then what happens if you get offered more money to go somewhere else? Then you're going to be gone again. Like, there's no commitment there, right?
[1:48:20] Right.
[1:48:22] So, why? Why play it cool and distant?
[1:48:34] So i just i didn't know if it would work out i don't know.
[1:48:37] No no come on you're guaranteeing it yeah right right right right it's like saying i have a job interview but i'm not going to go because i don't know if i'm going to get the job it's like well that's a great way of knowing you won't get the job right right so that's not it why, I mean, there's only really two possibilities.
[1:49:07] What would that be?
[1:49:08] Well, the first one is that you're very capable of love, but you just didn't love her enough. And the other is you have a barrier to falling in love. And it didn't matter what she did. Now, generally, people who have a barrier to falling in love, choose people they can't commit to so they don't uncover that deficiency in themselves. Does that make sense?
[1:49:40] Right.
[1:49:44] What virtues of hers did you treasure and admire?
[1:49:55] Treasured how truthful she was. How I treasured...
[1:50:01] Hang on hang on yeah she didn't tell you for a month that she was being stalked by her ex and she didn't tell you that she slept with you in part to get over him so let's not go with the big how honest she is okay let's try another one okay.
[1:50:15] Um well i mean obviously i listen to your show and a lot of people uh you know it's i i talked to her about you know your philosophies quite a bit, and she'd always be open and want to discuss.
[1:50:39] Okay discussion's not the same as virtue it's not bad but what are her practical virtues that you genuinely admire, because love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous right so love is dependent upon the virtue of others and ourselves selves. So what virtues of her did you love? Because it's the only way to love.
[1:51:10] I mean, I loved how kind and compassionate she was. I mean...
[1:51:30] Is it kind and compassionate to tell a man you slept with him in part to get over an ex that you didn't tell him about?
[1:51:37] Hmm. No.
[1:51:41] Okay. Okay. Is it kind and compassionate to draw an unstable man into a relationship and then end that relationship and he ends up suicidal? I'm not saying that's her fault directly, but she certainly was an environmental trigger, right? Rather than saying to this guy, look, I get that you want to date, you're attractive, but man, you need to really get some mental health help first.
[1:52:15] And I think that's what went down with the whole...
[1:52:19] No, she slept with him, she dated him, right?
[1:52:24] Well, she made an effort to try it. Like, she contacted this guy's parents and...
[1:52:28] No, but that's after the breakup and after he was suicidal, right?
[1:52:33] Right.
[1:52:34] I'm talking about before. she had causal effect on his deteriorating mental health. So I ask you again, her virtues. Now, maybe she developed virtues over the two and a half years. I don't want to judge her entirely by the beginning. But there's no self-respect for a woman to sleep with a man the first time she meets him. There's no self-respect.
[1:53:11] Right.
[1:53:12] And that's massively insecure. Because she's saying, I'm going to trigger your hormonal bonding mechanisms before you have any chance to really evaluate my personality. And in fact, that's how you evaluate a personality. A woman who wants to sleep with you on the first meeting is seriously messed up. I'm just going to be frank with you, and I'm sorry to say this so bluntly. She's seriously disturbed. It's dangerous. And she already had a stalker. Now, that stalker she had assumed was mentally healthy enough to date and sleep with. so she has bad judgment and she had complete evidence that she has bad judgment right right and what does she do, the next time when she already slept with a guy thinking he was great and he turned out to be a psycho stalker who threatened suicide so what does she do oh I'll sleep on the first date with the next guy, that's seriously disturbed man, and if you called me back then well this could all have been avoided, right? Right. She was still stalked by her psycho ex, who obviously she slept with, probably very early on in the relationship, too. And then she meets a new guy, jumps into bed with him again. Learned to not...
[1:54:40] But don't...
[1:54:45] Sorry?
[1:54:47] But don't you think if... she's never been unfaithful or, There hasn't been any... Like, I understand that that's not... Yeah. I don't know. Like, I hear what you're saying. That's not... No self-respect. But it seemed to me, at least when I met her, that that was more of a... Well, I guess I jumped in bed with her too. But that was more of a symptom. or that was more of a like I don't know I guess people my age everybody does that.
[1:55:40] You're talking to a model philosopher saying everyone does it okay yeah come on man you got to talk to someone else for that crap right, now I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, because you didn't tell the truth to your parents, because you knew that it was seriously disturbed behavior on her part and therefore on your part. So you hid what had happened between you two because you knew exactly how messed up it was. We don't hide things we're proud of.
[1:56:41] So you had sex, indifferent, lazy sex, without even any commitment. And then, months later, you start to try and knit together some kind of respectful, honorable pair bonding. That's like eating 15 candy bars and then trying to be healthy by having a salad.
[1:57:15] And you did it to avoid the sadness of the past and the lack of bonding and the lack of closeness and the lack of connection. And listen, my friend, I say this with great sympathy, you are kind of surrounded by some not so great people. Right? You've got friends who don't tell you the truth. You've got friends who don't warn you about this kind of behavior. You've got parents you lie to. you've got parents who lie to you. She's got parents who don't care about her enough to vet. Her boyfriend, even though they probably knew that her last boyfriend was a psycho stalker and they don't even vet the new guy. Holy crap. This is trash planet. This is the underworld. This is a dungeon. You're in Hades. who is acting with any honor or decency or integrity or love or virtue or courage, or directness or care for anyone in this world. You need to be cared for. She needs to be cared for. Not screwed. You built your castle on sand, man. Are you a religious man?
[1:58:43] Um, well, I would go to... I mean, I was thinking about becoming a Catholic. She was Catholic and not just... Not because of her...
[1:58:53] Sorry, she was Catholic?
[1:58:56] She is Catholic.
[1:58:57] She's Catholic?
[1:58:59] Yeah.
[1:59:00] No, she's not? What does Catholicism say about sex before marriage?
[1:59:10] Right.
[1:59:11] She's Catholic? When did you find out she was Catholic?
[1:59:19] I knew...
[1:59:21] Like in the time you were chatting before you met?
[1:59:22] Probably before, yeah, yeah.
[1:59:24] Okay, so the Catholic girl comes over, bangs you the first time. You have no... You've no questions about that? Oh my God, Ben, what have you been doing? She sinned. Terribly. Right?
[1:59:50] Right.
[1:59:51] Did she ever say, Gosh, you know, I can't believe we slept together. That was such a sin. Did she even notice it? As a sin? A grievous sin?
[2:00:04] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:00:10] And you knew she was Catholic before you met her and you screwed her. Bro, that's corrupting. Isn't it?
[2:00:28] Yeah.
[2:00:28] You corrupted her. Now, she did it too, but takes two, right? You corrupted her with a sinful union. Because even if you're not Catholic, if you respect the woman, you would respect that she's Catholic, and you wouldn't draw her into sin. Am I wrong?
[2:01:03] No, that's right.
[2:01:04] That's not good. Like, that's seriously not good. now of course she comes over and maybe she wants to sleep with you for whatever reason and you say no listen you're a catholic we can't do that that's a sin right it's a sin, I don't want you to sin isn't that caring for someone right I mean you believe she has a soul right right Right. And so, you wouldn't want to imperil her soul just to have sex with her body, right?
[2:01:51] Right.
[2:01:52] But you did.
[2:02:02] Yeah, I did.
[2:02:03] I mean, who are you working for here, Jesus, or not so much Jesus? And then you say, I'm sad we broke up? When you started in kind of sin and corruption?
[2:02:35] Right.
[2:02:38] I mean, she's a Catholic. I know you're not a Catholic. But she is. So you shouldn't be participating in her corruption, right?
[2:02:47] Right.
[2:02:48] And imperiling her soul. Did that, has this crossed your mind, or is this new info?
[2:02:57] No, this, yeah, I guess, you know, I I just did not, just, uh, oh, I mean, obviously I didn't care enough.
[2:03:14] I don't think it even crossed your mind.
[2:03:16] No.
[2:03:17] Right. And that's how sin happens, right? Everyone thinks the devil comes along with this big temptation and offers you the world if you go to a P. Diddy party. It's like, that's not how it works. what happens is he tempts you to not think about it at all. That's how he gets you, right?
[2:03:38] Right.
[2:03:40] Oh, she's hot. Let's have sex. It doesn't cross your mind. Well, if she's a Catholic this is a sin, right? To just get you to not think about it at all is the best way to get you to sin. So I ask you again what virtues do you possess with each other that give you the privilege called love. Because love is a privilege that we earn through virtue. I mean, you're corrupted, you lied, you fornicated, you sinned. You're in a kind of hell, aren't you?
[2:04:24] I would say so, yes. Right.
[2:04:26] And isn't that where sin leads you? I mean, hell's not the afterlife, right?
[2:04:31] Right.
[2:04:40] Can you think of any virtues that would cause you to be in love? This is why you can't commit, right? Because there's sin and corruption at the beginning. But yeah, of the virtues, right? That would overcome this corruption.
[2:04:53] Well, I mean, we talk about, you know, starting a family, and I do think she'd be a good mother. I do think she has values, even though, you know, yeah I do understand you know sex before marriage yeah but she is.
[2:05:14] This is not just sex before marriage this is sex on first meeting when she still has feelings for another man, that's a whole different continuum from sex before marriage you know like there's some catholic couple and And they've been engaged for six months, and they're going to get married six months later. And then three days before their wedding, they have intercourse. That's technically sex before marriage. That's a long way from where you guys were.
[2:05:46] Right.
[2:05:56] And what makes you think she would be a good mother? I'm not saying she wouldn't be. I'm just curious.
[2:06:00] Is well she she has very she's very caring um she's, i don't know she's i i don't know i guess let me ask you this i'm sorry to interrupt you.
[2:06:15] Right after i asked you a question.
[2:06:16] As a catholic.
[2:06:18] Then having sex with you imperils your soul right.
[2:06:23] Great.
[2:06:24] So she corrupted you by throwing herself at you, right?
[2:06:29] Right.
[2:06:29] And, I mean, it's fairly evident that women are often the gatekeepers for sex, right? Men are the gatekeepers to relationship, women are the gatekeepers to sex. So, if she's a Catholic, and she does, she tempts you with lust and imperils your soul by sex before marriage, is that kind?
[2:06:49] No. Okay.
[2:06:50] Is that caring? No It's pretty devilish, isn't it? Almost demonic Right So, help me understand the good mother thing then Hmm, Because if you sentimentalize her, then you're going to end up again with someone like her.
[2:07:26] I see.
[2:07:26] Right? You need to look at things starkly so you don't repeat, right? Right. If the alcoholic only thinks of how much fun drinking is and not the damage to his health and relationships and income and stability, then he's going to go drink again, right? If he romanticizes or sentimentalizes the addiction.
[2:07:47] Right.
[2:07:53] I mean, I do take her Catholicism seriously.
[2:07:59] It's her belief system.
[2:08:01] Right?
[2:08:01] Right. And she's, you know, it's, I guess, in our relationship, we've been having sex outside of marriage. And yeah, that is pretty bad.
[2:08:14] Okay, so the devil brought you together, and God is taking you apart, because he wants to give you a chance to go forth and sin no more. And you're mourning this? You're getting a chance to stop sinning, and stop hurting each other's souls, and prospects, and virtues, right?
[2:08:40] Right.
[2:08:45] You're like the drunk. Someone takes the drink out of his hand and he cries and gets angry. You're kind of addicted to sin, aren't you? Because there's not even any commitment here. I mean, maybe you can redeem the sex before marriage by actually getting married and staying married. I mean, it's not ideal, but I would imagine there's some redemption in that, right? That's what they used to say, make an honest woman out of me, right?
[2:09:11] Right.
[2:09:12] But you're damaging her. You're turning her into damaged goods, like the last guy, right?
[2:09:17] Right.
[2:09:17] And, you know, she's responsible, but I'm talking to you, not her, right? Right. So, the doorway to sin has closed, and hopefully the doorway to virtue is opening, right?
[2:09:38] I mean, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm telling you this.
[2:09:44] Man, you did this to my daughter. I'd hunt you to the end of the earth. I'm not kidding. I would hunt you to the end of the earth. Had sex with her right away and strung her along for two and a half years. With no commitment.
[2:10:04] But I still feel like I still want to commit to this woman.
[2:10:09] No, no, no, you don't. Now you just want to avoid pain. Come on, man. Let's be honest. You just want to avoid the pain of separation and the breakup. If you had wanted to commit to her, you would have done it years ago. You just want to avoid the pain of the breakup. by continuing to sin. Because you broke up before, you got together, you didn't commit. You broke up before, you got together, you didn't commit, right?
[2:10:38] Right.
[2:10:41] Now you break up again, you want to get back together. I mean, come on, man. You break something three times, it stays broken. Now, maybe you're totally right in not committing to her. I imagine it would have been a pretty disastrous marriage. Because you don't respect each other's virtues. And therefore you're just clinging to each other out of hormones, lust, emotional need and and desperation. But what is there from the outside, right, I'm trying to give you this, I'm trying to reduce your pain here, right, by being honest, right? But from the outside, what virtues would people see in this relationship? What would Jesus say about this relationship? What does God say about this relationship? You pray to God, and you say, with this woman, am I doing good? And what does God say?
[2:12:02] No.
[2:12:02] Am I honoring her? Am I respecting her? Am I honoring and respecting myself? Are we walking together in the shining path of virtue?
[2:12:14] And we're not.
[2:12:15] You're not you're using each other for sex to have a placeholder called a relationship and to avoid loneliness and the pain of breakup right that's not virtuous is it no, so how you act is how you get love there's no shortcuts right how you eat, is how you get calories or don't how you exercise Exercise is whether you get muscles or don't. There's no shortcuts, right?
[2:12:46] Right.
[2:12:46] You can't eat five cheesecakes a day, not exercise, and get abs, right?
[2:12:51] Right.
[2:12:52] So how you act is how the relationship works or doesn't work. If you don't have any standards of behavior, then you can't be admired. If you can't be admired, you can't be loved. If you can't be loved, there's no pair bond. The pair bond is mutual respect for morals. You don't love the woman, you love the good in the woman. Just as she loves the good in you. No, there's individual aspects to it, because everybody manifests good in different ways and in different skill sets and in different circumstances, right?
[2:13:33] And there's good... I don't know if I guess you might slam me for this too, but I mean...
[2:13:37] Stop trying to manipulate me and program my responses, okay? Just tell me.
[2:13:41] Okay, yeah, right. Sorry. But there is good in her, and that's... I mean, why...
[2:13:47] Okay, but tell me then, what is the good in her? I keep asking. I'm open to it. I'm wide open to it. What is the good in her? I'm not saying she's evil.
[2:13:58] Right? Right.
[2:14:00] Right, but what's the good in her? That draws your love to her and her alone. We fall in love when we finally say, I can't imagine anyone better. I can't imagine anyone more virtuous. I can't imagine anyone with more courage and more dedication and more honesty and more admirable morality. So, what is it in her that draws the love from you like a plant to the sun? What are the virtues that drive your love?
[2:14:48] I just want to say something like loving, but I mean, that doesn't.
[2:14:55] So the devil will have you make up virtues in order to keep you pair bonded, with a kind of horror or horrible situation, right? With a kind of corruption. Because the devil doesn't want you to see the corruption. He just wants you to make up virtues to cover up your addiction, right?
[2:15:12] So.
[2:15:18] Does she pray?
[2:15:21] She does, yes.
[2:15:22] Okay.
[2:15:22] We go to Mass together.
[2:15:24] Okay, so she prays, she goes to Mass. Has God ever told her that she sinned when she got together with you? And has she ever brought that up with you?
[2:15:37] No.
[2:15:38] So she's distant from God. Her sin is between her and God. Which means she can't access her conscience. Which means she can't correct her behavior. Which means she's lost. And if you care about her, and you do, I'm not saying you shouldn't, right? You do care about her. If I were in your shoes, I can't tell you what to do. If I was in your shoes, I would say, I'm sorry for corrupting you. I'm sorry for getting between you and God. You need to pray. And you need to connect with God. Because God is so distant from you that he wasn't answering your prayers and telling you you're sinning with this guy. You're corrupting each other. you're harming each other and you're imperiling your very souls that's how far you are from God and I've helped lead you that far away from God and I'm that far away from God you pray right? yes when you pray did God tell you you're doing wrong by fornicating with this woman?
[2:16:48] I mean if I have to yeah he did and I ignored it Ah.
[2:16:53] And when did he tell you that?
[2:16:59] Pretty much throughout the relationship. I mean, there's always... I guess I've... I guess I've always had a feeling of going to her and saying, we should stop doing this so that we can...
[2:17:14] Okay, so you prayed to God and he said, stop fornicating with this woman, right?
[2:17:18] Right. Okay.
[2:17:20] But you kept doing it. right why, do you think you know better than god is he just kind of mistaken about this and it's you and your lust that should rule the virtues i.
[2:17:36] Guess i'm just lustful.
[2:17:41] Well no that's but that's the point of course you're lustful that's why we need rules right of course everyone likes cheesecake that's why we need nutrition, of course you're lustful that's fully accepted right That's why you pray. How did you get from the highest and most moral universal being telling you not to do something to you not even bringing it up with your girlfriend and saying, listen, I'm tormented, right? I mean, I'm praying to God and God's telling me we got to stop. I'm terrified of corrupting you. I'm afraid we're harming each other. I'm afraid we're falling prey to two and a half years worth of lust and sin and hell. And this can't lead to a good place. Sin does not lead to a good place, right?
[2:18:28] Right.
[2:18:28] So even if you couldn't stop, I mean, of course you could have, right? Somebody gave you a million dollars to not have sex with your girlfriend, you'd not have sex with your girlfriend, at least for a weekend, right?
[2:18:39] So you could have stopped.
[2:18:40] Right? It's not like gravity. Right. So, and I say this with openness and with humility, like I'm not perfect, right? So I'm not saying this from like, ah, finger wagging from the pulpit here, but why wouldn't you bring it up with your girlfriend? and say, you know, we're sinning here, right?
[2:19:01] Does it have to do with me not being truthful?
[2:19:04] Well, that's tautology. Why didn't you tell, why weren't you honest with your girlfriend? Well, I'm not truthful. It's like, I know, but that's a tautology.
[2:19:11] Right? Right.
[2:19:12] Are you dishonest? Well, I guess I'm not honest, but why wouldn't you bring this up with your girlfriend?
[2:19:17] Does it have to do with my dishonesty with my parents?
[2:19:23] It has to do with, with contempt for your girlfriend. Because you believe, I believe, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I believe that you believe that if you brought this up with your girlfriend, she would have dumped you. If you'd have said, we need to become virtuous, she would have dumped you. That you have such a low regard for your girlfriend that if she can't sin with you, she doesn't want you. because the reason why you wouldn't bring this up is because you think it would go badly right, right in the same way you didn't tell the truth to your parents because you thought it would go badly right right so if you go to the catholic young woman and you say we're sinning and we need to get closer to god and we need to do the right thing the only reason you think that would would go badly is if she would choose sin over God, which means you have a very low opinion of her. Am I wrong?
[2:20:38] That's, that, I, well, I, I don't know. I don't know what she, yeah, I see what you're saying out of fear of her breaking up with me, but I honestly don't know what she'd say.
[2:20:54] Well, you certainly have a theory, otherwise you would have done it. If you were completely neutral, you would have done it, right? So you have a theory that it would go badly. Right. So if you brought God and virtue and Catholicism to your girlfriend, she would dump you. That's how much you think she wants to sin and avoid virtue. Or how enmeshed she is in this devilish construct of lust, right? Or just the avoidance of virtue. In other words, if you pointed out how hypocritical she was being, she would choose to act worse. because if you loved her, cared for her soul, you would say, we have to stop sinning because I care for your soul, right? Now, hopefully that would be the basis of the beginning of a better relationship, right?
[2:21:43] Right.
[2:21:44] But you didn't think that would happen. In other words, she chose you for sin and if you won't sin with her, she'll dump you. you are a mechanism for her to damn her own soul. You are a mechanism by which she pursues sin. Right? Right. And if I'm on a subway and I find I'm going in the wrong direction, I get off the subway, right? So she's using you as a form of self-humiliation and sinning. And you say, let's become virtue. She's like, hey, man, that's not what I'm here for. I'm out.
[2:22:28] So do you think I mean well obviously I want to get back with her but, It has to be on a basis of...
[2:22:47] You don't know if you want to get back together with her. You know you have an emotional need and a physical need.
[2:22:53] Right.
[2:22:55] That's how sin happens, right? Right. I mean, again, I can't tell you what to do.
[2:23:00] If I were in your shoes, I would have a frank conversation with her about sin. Are you Catholic? Yes, you're Catholic. Okay, what we did was a sin. And what we continued to do was a sin. Why didn't we ever talk about it? Did you pray to God? What did he say? What does Jesus say? Did you talk to the priest? What did the priest say? Why didn't your parents stop you? Like, there's a whole environment around her that's drowning her in sin.
[2:23:22] I see.
[2:23:23] And don't you want to help her out of that fiery fucking pool?
[2:23:26] I do.
[2:23:28] So it's not about getting your balls sucked. It's about saving her soul.
[2:23:34] Right.
[2:23:34] Now, even if you're secular, it's bad behavior, right? But if you're religious, the stakes are way higher. If you care about her, you would try to reconnect her with her virtues, with her God, with God, with Jesus, and apologize for drawing her away and having so little respect for her virtues that you feared she would dump you if you asked her to be good.
[2:24:06] Right.
[2:24:11] Now, how that plays out, I have no idea. I'm happy to talk to her if she wants to talk, but how that plays out, I have no idea. But that's a free will thing.
[2:24:23] Right? Right.
[2:24:25] So you can't control how she's going to react. The only thing you can control is what you do.
[2:24:29] That's how I react, right?
[2:24:30] Well, no, how you initiate, not how you react.
[2:24:32] Okay, yeah, you're right. Sorry. Now, I don't know what...
[2:24:43] I don't know... I'm not a Catholic, so I don't know to what degree... How far do you go to save someone from sin? So, she won't talk to you, do you talk to her parents? Do you talk to her priest? Do you talk to her siblings? Do you talk to her friends? Right? And say, listen, this is a terrible situation and I'm really feeling bad about all of the sinning. Like, whatever it takes to get help for her. Because she's walking a very bad and dangerous road, right?
[2:25:19] And maybe you aren't the person to help her. I don't know. But maybe you can raise some warning signs for the people in her life who may have more credibility than you. And I'm sure there are some people so that she can be saved. Because she's not connecting with her faith. She's not connecting with God. She's not connecting with morality. She's doing kind of the opposite, right? That's going to be very bad in her afterlife life but certainly in her life for sure right right so i think that's virtue right now if you do that kind of stuff you know hey man we all sin right we all sin so and you're a young man and i've, sinned as a young man i i hope you understand i am not trying to lecture you from any place of superiority i'm i'm i'm right down here in the trenches with you brother i'm absolutely I absolutely mean that. It's not a false humility. Right? But you need to learn your lesson and go forth and sin no more.
[2:26:21] Right.
[2:26:22] Just as I do. And still do. And that's what I wanted to get out of the breakup convo.
[2:26:37] Wow. well thank you.
[2:26:42] You are very very welcome my friend and I admire your strength in the conversation because it's not particularly easy right no.
[2:26:51] It's, it's tough but I really do appreciate everything you do.
[2:27:00] You are very welcome and again you know extend the invitation to her and I hope that she'll keep me posted about how things are going.
[2:27:07] I will and I hope eventually Well, we'll see, but I hope I can get her to call in or something.
[2:27:16] Yes, or go talk to her priest or find some way to reconnect with God. I think that's very, very important. So whether it's through me, I mean, it's a little tougher through me, but through somebody who deeply understands her faith, it may be better. But I'm certainly happy to talk if I can help, and I hope that you'll keep me posted, and I really do appreciate the conversation today. Fantastic job.
[2:27:37] Okay, I will.
[2:27:38] Thanks, man.
[2:27:38] Thank you, Stefan. Thank you. Bye. Thank you.
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