My Mom Had 5 Kids with a Married Man! Freedomain Call In - Transcript


[0:00] Okay, well listen, I'm happy to help. Lay it on me. How can I help?

[0:04] Alright, so first my question. This is The Call-In Show, right?

[0:08] Yes, that's right.

[0:09] Okay, yeah, so as I wrote, I wasn't quite sure which topic to focus on,
because there's been a lot going on.
But I think what I picked, being lost as a young man in Western society,
is a good starting point. point, because right now, the last years I've been
quite lost. It's getting better now.
I'm having some success academically, financially, but still socially.
And in terms of wanting to stay in Germany, I'm not quite sure.

[0:44] So I just finished my bachelor's in psychology. And actually,
tomorrow I'm moving to do my Masters.
And when I picked psychology as a discipline, you know, I was quite sure I wanted
to stay in Germany, because by international comparison,
Germany is actually quite a good place to be a psychotherapist in terms of being
your own boss, having a private practice, good earning potential.
Essential, but with the way politics has been going, both at a large scale,
like economically, as well as socially and in my private life, I'm not so sure.
What I alluded to some experiences with people, especially in like the academic
field, which is extremely left wing, have been very bad, especially with my
background, which I also alluded to, right? my mom.

[1:41] Yes, I'm just trying to make my way. Right now the goal is graduating in psychology.
I've also been thinking about maybe starting something else while I'm getting
my post-grad training because then I'll be earning some money and I might be
able to study something else on the side.
I've been getting into finance due to private reasons.
Um, yeah, so I have somewhat of a career path picked out, but I don't have like
a stable social environment.
I have had one relationship, which was like official, both sides saying,
yes, we're in a committed relationship.
A lot of experiences here and there.
But, um, yeah, I'm just not sure if I can settle down to a stable environment here.
And if not, like, what else am I going to do if I'm going to move abroad?
You know, that's a whole different move, getting used to something completely different.
So, yeah, just if you want to give any thoughts on any of that or have questions.

[2:51] Well, I'm trying to understand the, I'm sure there is, the philosophical part of it.
I mean, I obviously can't give you any particular career advice or anything
like that. But if there's something I can help you with with regards to philosophy,
I'm obviously keen to do that, you know, where you should live or whether you
should be a psychologist or not.
I assume that there's a lot of training you still need to go through.
Like an undergraduate in psychology is usually just the first step in a multi-year
or half-decade plus process to become a full psychologist. So I'm not sure,
you know, where you should live or what career you should pursue.
That's, you know, not particularly a philosophical issue, but I'm certainly
happy to help you if there's philosophical questions.
Or I don't mean sort of like big moral philosophical questions,
but I'm not sure how philosophy can tell you whether you should be a psychologist
or not, if that makes sense.

[3:45] Right, right. No, I get that. But I think there is a relation to psychology,
because one thing that's also played into it is sort of this existentialist
aspect of finding out what meaning you can find in life.
And I think for a lot of people, me included, a career is at least a part of
that. I'm not sure how much it should be.
Um but it's at least somewhat of a framework because of this you know feeling lost,
um and also with the other struggles i've had it's been hard to,
really put it into one congruent perspective like having a meaning in life um
really seeing the point and things that's also one thing i'm somewhat skeptical about in psychology,
um because you know there's a lot of different schools and i'm not sure which
to pick exactly because of the underlying implications.
So for example, behavioral therapy has somewhat of a more reductive approach.
Behaviorism, somewhat biological essentialism, and psychoanalysis seems somewhat eccentric.
I just don't have one clear path that I'm saying, okay, this is a sensible framework.
This is a meaningful task to give some structure to my life.

[5:09] Well, tell me what you mean. Tell me what you mean by meanings.
You say to have to have meaning in your life and so on. What does that mean to you?

The Search for Meaning

[5:24] Well, I would say having an underlying framework, so metaphysical worldview, which tells you,
doing this has this and this cause and is applied to this and this problem in
that way and has that effect.
And doing that is good for a reason within that framework. So,
for example, in psychotherapy, the obvious thing would be, you know, you're helping people.

[5:56] Well, okay, and maybe we're using the words differently, but I wouldn't view
metaphysics as related to anything meaningful, to do with meaning.
Meaning is somewhat subjective, right? Some people might find more meaning in
art or accounting, maybe, or exercise.
That people find meaning in different things in terms of that which gives their
life a sense of value metaphysics is not personal like metaphysics is the study
of the nature of reality and so,
metaphysics can't have anything to do with anything subjective like it's like
saying science is subjective well no science by its very nature is objective right so,
that's why i sort of want to understand what it is that you mean by the word
meaning and i i I certainly would argue very strongly that metaphysics can't
be part of your meaning, because metaphysics is the study of objective reality,
and there's no meaning in objective reality, right?
That's a sort of subjective state of mind or state of well-being, if that makes sense.

[6:59] Right, right. I get that.
That view and honestly this at this point the one i've adopted i have dabbled in different schools,
of philosophy um but yeah
that's basically the way i see it as well that there's you know by now through
the enlightenment um an understanding of the basis of nature and we have to
find our own way within that but the question is just you know making that choice
that's a subjective choice,
um in terms of the knowledge of that differing objective reality for me is um
difficult and maybe we could get into okay sorry.

[7:41] Let's uh i'm trying to sort of figure out like you sound,
somewhat unhappy uh which you know i i don't obviously have a a problem with
that maybe is why we're calling but it's it sounds like you're carrying a bit
of a burden you know your voice is kind of flat and a little repetitive and
a little, there's no intonation,
there's no liveliness, if that makes sense.
This is not a criticism at all, right? And I could be wrong.
People have different communication styles.
But is it that you feel unhappy? Is that what we are trying to work with?

[8:13] Yes, yes, I would say so.

[8:15] Okay, right. So rather than metaphysics and meaning and psychology and so on,
I think the issue is, if I understand this correctly, you're unhappy.

[8:25] Yes.

[8:26] Okay. And for how long have you felt unhappy?
Overall, I mean, we all have our phases, right? But I mean, overall,
in general, this is more pervasive.

[8:39] Certainly, the last about six years have been very tough, mostly due to personal
issues, dealing with chronic pain after surgery,
lawsuit, deaths in the family, and relationship struggles.

[8:56] Okay. And you don't have to give me your actual age. Are you sort of early 20s?
Are you mid-20s? Something else?

Coping with Unbearable Pain

Mid-20s mid-20s okay so uh
let's let's unpack all of the the weight you said that the lawsuit uh pain from
surgery deaths in the family relationship uh problems just unpack the the misery
train that you've kind of been strapped to for the last six years what's been going on.

[9:25] All right so i'll start chronologically.

[9:27] Yeah and listen you don't don't don't be shy on you know you can take as much
time as you need because I mean you've had six years and I can certainly spend some time listening.

[9:38] Well, thank you. So after school, when I graduated high school, I was quite lost.
Again, I didn't really know what I wanted to do.
And I tried a few different things. The first one was mechanical engineering.
I did some pre-courses for that and an internship.
But I realized it wasn't for me. You know, that was the point of that preliminary phase to try it out.
And I realized, no, I enjoy theoretical mathematics, more of the abstract stuff.
But putting it into application in physics wasn't my deal.
So after that, honestly, I didn't have a clear cut path just out of interest
and lack of alternatives.
I decided to study philosophy and English literature.
And at the same time, I had that surgery. It was a hernia surgery.
So usually nothing big, but it can go wrong. And it did in my case.
I had an implant, and it fused with a nerve, as I later found out.
So that basically meant since I had surgeryó Sorry.

[10:47] I think the hernia isósorry, is that where your intestine comes out of your wall?
And what does the implant have to do with it? I'm sorry, I don't mean for you
to give me a crash course on medicine, but I'm not quite sure I understand the implant thing.

[11:03] Yeah, so it was an inguinal hernia, basically where your testicles leave your
body during development, there's a channel, a hole,
and usually in healthy people, they have strong connective tissue there that
closes it, but I have somewhat reconnective tissue and it runs in the family,
so yeah, the intestine can push on that, that and of
course that causes pain and can cause a
lump and by now the standard procedure
is to put an implant a mesh
implant on top and then the body sort of encapsulates that and it solidifies
and the point is to make it more stable because that's basically a weak point
in male anatomy there's a lot of pressure from your whole torso on that area
so that technique was developed a lot to put mesh there.

[11:55] And it just didn't take for you?

[11:59] Yeah, so the issue was that a nerve was entrapped with the mesh and the scar
tissue, like anatomically the nerve was compressed and fused with the plastic
mesh basically, as I later found out.
Yeah, so that time studying philosophy was quite miserable because I was in constant pain.

[12:19] And how bad was the pain? Like sort of, you know, the old one to 10 scale?

[12:26] Well, I would say, especially with the chronic nature, it was the worst pain I've ever felt.
And you know, I've had motorcycle accidents, you know, it's literally a nerve
like the structure that senses pain being constantly stimulated.

[12:40] Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. And how long did this pain last for assuming it's passed or largely?

[12:48] Dr. So, I started consulting a different surgeon, one of the best in Germany,
and about a year after the first surgery, I had another one by him where the
mesh was explanted and the nerve was cut.
So, that phase lasted about a year, and that surgery initially helped.
So, everything was just numb because the nerve had been cut.
And during that phase, I switched to psychology because, as I said,
philosophy was more of a lot of interest, but I didn't have a clear-cut career path.
And with psychology, I did. I did have a goal and a job.
And that went well for about a year. But the thing is, you know,
nerves regenerate. And mine started doing that.
And apparently it hit some nerve tissue or something or it regenerated wrong.
So the pain started again in a different way, I would say less severe,
but still I got a pain therapy then with a strong medication and luckily that worked.
So I quit about a year ago with that, year and a half.
And yeah, finally I'm mostly healthy. Some days I still feel it because it was
a lot of tissue damage, but the neurological part I think is gone.
It's just anatomical. clue.

[14:11] Wow. Gosh, I'm so sorry. And when was the initial surgery with the implant?

[14:19] At 2018.

[14:22] Okay okay gosh i mean that's that's horrendous i'm i'm sorry was and was the
lawsuit related to um problems with the healthcare system like were you suing
doctors or was the lawsuit something else.

[14:34] Yes i was suing the
surgeon um because because of two things
mainly um one of them was he actually
didn't use the exact method agreed upon in the
contract i'm not sure about the english term you
know the informed consent you sign he actually used a slightly different method
with a bigger mesh so i agreed to have a mesh put in on the outside between
my abs and the skin but he was one that goes there and through the canal also
below the abs towards the,
abdominal abdominal cavity that was one thing and the other thing was it turned
out i have hemophilia, so a blood clotting issue, which wasn't properly diagnosed by him.
It was later properly diagnosed by the other surgeon, and that caused a pretty
big hematoma. So those were the two things.
And yeah, the lawsuit is settled by now.
I won the civil lawsuit, but part of that agreement was that I wouldn't and file criminal charges.
So, yeah, that's how that turned out.

[15:46] Huh. I didn't know it was up to you to file the criminal charges.
I assumed that would be part of what the police would do. But,
again, I'm no legal expert, but all right.

[15:56] That might depend on the country.

[15:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[15:59] I would have to file it.

[16:00] Okay. Well, so you were in severe pain for a year, and then off and on afterwards,
and it's been resolved now. And that's horrendous.
I mean, that's hell.
I mean, it's hell on earth to be in chronic pain.
So I'm really sorry for all of that. That's a mess. And it really is remarkable
just how incompetent a lot of doctors are. Like, it's like one of the major
causes of death in America is just, like, medical error.
Like, it's just, it's really, because, you know, when you're a kid,
you grow up with all of these TV shows and everything about doctors and how much they care.
And, you know, money's never really discussed. And it's just been,
it really is quite appalling just how terrible a lot of doctors are.
And some good ones, of course. But, boy, they just, they're just a bunch of
butchers, some of them, for sure. And I'm sorry that you went through that. That's, that's.
Oh, that's terrible. That's terrible. Okay, so we have two, right?
I mean, now I understand the pain issue, I understand the lawsuit issue to some
degree, and we also have the deaths in the family, and we have the relationship
stuff. So if you could tell me about those.

[17:17] Right. Related to the dust in the family, also my family background with my
mother, that also played into the whole pain topic.
Because, you know, at that time, after graduating high school,
I was also mostly isolated and mostly dealing with her.
And, well, she wasn't quite supportive, I would say.

[17:42] What do you mean?

[17:46] Well for example she just denied that I had pain or said things like other men
would just deal with it if there's a little pain somewhere,
and questioned why I got the surgery and I don't know just,
didn't provide any emotional support just told me to live with it,
and during the second surgery It was a bit of a complicated process figuring
it out with the surgeon and some organizational problems.
So I had to postpone it once. She made this emasculating remark,
like the way I decide whether I want to get surgery or not.
That's the same as some women deciding whether they get a haircut or not.
Things like that and that's you know exemplary of her personality and relationship to me.

[18:44] Wow a um a german mother unsympathetic to male pain,
i uh i can understand that i mean i'm sure you're oh yeah maybe you're aware
or not aware i uh my mother's german so i have a little experience a little experience this way,
or just you know women as a whole right suck it up and you know
like i i see all these videos on social media women complaining
about the price of things right and just
yeah women complaining about the price of things and it's like well
you know men men go through all of these difficulties in life and you know the
idea that we would go to social media to endlessly complain about things is
kind of incomprehensible because uh you know men women don't generally don't
often don't often and care that much about male suffering.
It's just kind of an inconvenience and suck it up and get back to being a good
little provider, a good little workhorse, and so on. So I'm sorry.
I'm sorry about all of that.
So that's... Sorry, go ahead.
I'm sorry?

Challenging Family Dynamics

[19:54] And that plays into the experiences I alluded to with women and the relationship stuff.

[20:00] Sorry, I didn't quite get the deaths in the family stuff, though,
So if you can help me understand that.

[20:06] Right. So that happened during COVID. My dad died.
And my grandmother, not of COVID, it just happened at that time.
My dad had heart issues, congenital heart issues.
And my grandma was just old, had all sorts of issues.
But that caused a lot of chaos in family structures and finances,
especially because a lot of money was involved.

[20:33] Oh yeah and and the the paperwork of death is is
huge i mean it's like like the the real funeral is for the all the time you
have uh because you have to do so much paperwork and bureaucracy and lawyers
and and uh and so on it's a it's a huge job to to deal with someone dying as
well of course as all of the emotional challenges as well and were you close to your father.

[20:56] It's a complicated story I only got to know him as an adult because my parents
were never really together so my dad was still with his first wife,
and I basically cheated on her with my mom and they decided to have five children together.

[21:12] Sorry you and your sorry your mother and her lover had five children together,
yes and I assume he did not stay married to To his wife?

[21:27] I don't know the exact details. They were together until my youngest sibling was born.

[21:35] Sorry, you're going to have to explain this to me like I'm three years old,
right? Because it's complicated.
So your father was married to a woman. He had five children with your mother.
And you're not sure if he stayed married to his wife?

[21:50] Yes.

[21:51] Okay.

[21:51] Because I was quite young.

[21:53] Yeah, you're very young. But he didn't live with you, is that right?

[21:57] Yes.

[21:59] Yes, he didn't live with you?

[22:02] Yes, only for a very short time, about two years.
They built a house together, a new one, and he was sometimes there,
but also busy with work and maybe his other family.
So, sort of for a year or two, they lived together, but then they separated.

[22:20] What is wrong with your mother? Like, that's so disturbed, I can't even tell you.

[22:28] But what do you find disturbing about it?

[22:30] Everything. I mean, the fact that she's a homewrecker, right?
The fact that she had an affair with a married man, that's disturbed.
The fact that she had five children with a married man. The fact that she did
not provide a father for her children, as far as I can tell.
This is all so bizarre and disturbed and corrupt.
I'm a little shocked, and I'm kind of hard to shock, but this is kind of shocking.

[22:57] Yes what i would like to add and what i wanted to say previously uh
i have been a long-term listener especially during my adolescence and
um yeah hearing your story sort of
first put this into perspective because this is all i knew you know i didn't
know there's anything wrong with this um but yeah the older i get the more i'm
like what were they doing and my mom is a disturbed individual you know i think
my dad was the only relationship she ever had and it wasn't a real a proper one.

[23:27] Why would she have five children with a married man?
I mean, why would he have five children with a mistress? Why would she have
five children with a married man?

[23:37] Well, they were planning to get together and possibly leaving his wife.
Again, I don't know the details.

[23:43] No, but you waited until he leaves his wife. You know, just keep having children.

[23:48] Yeah, ideally, yeah.

[23:50] Ideally? That's not an ideally thing.
Ideally, I go snorkeling and don't get my legs chewed off by sharks.
Ideally. That's more than an ideal.
Was your father very high status, very attractive?
Was there some reason why she pursued him in this insane way?

[24:16] I think two things. Yeah, he was sort of the stereotypical finance jet.
He was quite rich. He financed three houses for three women,
had children with two of them, married the other one.
And my mom, I think, didn't have a lot of options because she's psychologically disturbed.
I know she was abused as a kid.
She might have sort of autistic tendencies. My older brothers are diagnosed
as autistic, but no one else is.
So I think, you know, she didn't have a lot of options.
She herself was a veterinarian, so somewhat high status.
And, you know, she had found this rich, confident man. And I think that was the deal.

[24:59] Okay so you're still oh gosh how long have you listened to this show for.

[25:04] Uh well i used to listen a lot the last year is not so much only occasionally.

[25:08] Right right and so you're still in the excuses phase with your mom right.

[25:15] Not anymore after the.

[25:17] No no you just gave me all these excuses,
Right? She's autistic, maybe she didn't have many options, she was abused as
a child, right? These are all excuses, right?

[25:29] Right.

[25:30] So, I mean, if I hear, you know, if the first thing I hear about,
like, well, why did your mother have five children with a married man who wouldn't commit to her?
And you say, well, but she didn't have many options and she had a bad childhood
and all this and that, right? That's not, you know, that's an excuse, right?

[25:56] Right, but what would you say is the non-excused hard fact?

[26:06] Well, it's to do with moral choice, right? So I don't know what the answer could be,
but it could be something like the reason that my mother had five children with
a married man is because she was greedy for his money and status and thought
she could trap him that way.
I can only really analyze the moral choices because I give people free will.
And free will means you don't get excuses, right?
I mean, and here's the thing, too. The reason why I would never accept a single
excuse for your mother is she didn't give you any excuses for being in chronic,
unbearable pain in your groin for a year.
She's like, suck it up, be a man, don't suffer. So she's kind of mean and doesn't
give any excuses whatsoever, right? Am I right?

[27:01] Yes, no, I think that's...

[27:02] And you're in chronic pain in your groin for a year. Horrible pain.
And she's like, well, that doesn't give you excuses for anything.
So why are you giving the woman who gives you no excuses for legitimate suffering,
why would you give her excuses?

[27:19] She made horrible choices.

[27:21] She did the wrong thing. She harmed her children. She liked the high-status guy.
Or maybe she liked... I mean, did he give her money or did she just make the
money herself? I mean, who took care of you guys, you and your four siblings?
Who took care of you when you were younger?

[27:36] Again, complicated. So the house they bought, he paid the credit for it. It's paid off now.
And, you know, it's a big house in the rural setting. How she would like it
with horses, because they're both into horses.
And, you know, a minimum alimony payment in Germany is mandatory,
and he paid that, but he definitely would have had to pay more.

[27:58] What do you mean, alimony? They weren't married. Do you mean child support?

[28:01] Yes, that's right.

[28:02] Child support. Okay, no problem. Go ahead.

[28:04] And he probably would have had to pay more than that with his money,
but she would have had to sue him for it, which she didn't.
Yeah, so that was that. And I mean, in Germany, you know, there's a lot of state
support for children, And she started working again as a veterinarian.
So we weren't poor or somewhat extremely rich, just getting by comfortably.

[28:26] But she made a lot of money by having children because he bought her a house,
right? And paid this alimony.
And so was it your mother who took care of you when you were younger?

[28:39] Yes, and grandmother. So her mother was sort of like a second mother.
And honestly, more of the feminine nurturing figure.
My mom was more sort of academically pushing for success.

[28:53] Okay. So she just had children for money in many ways, right?
Because she didn't get the guy and she didn't demand that the guy give her a
commitment. She just kept having children with him, right?

[29:04] Yes.

[29:05] Okay. And she got well paid for that?
Do I have that right?

[29:12] Yes, I suppose. But to be fair, she did forward the payments to us,
but she didn't keep it for herself.

[29:21] She forwarded the payments to you. Aren't you living there?

[29:26] No, no, not for a long time.

[29:28] Oh, sorry. The child support payments?

[29:33] Yeah, in Germany. Well, no, not the ones from my dad, but the ones from the
government, you know, the subsidies and stuff.

[29:40] Oh, no, yeah, I know. I'm talking about the stuff with your dad.
So she got paid, she got a house out of having kids, right?

[29:50] Yeah.

[29:51] And then she also got payments from the government, of course,
and she also got the payments from your father, so she just,
she got a lot of money for having kids.

[30:04] Right.

[30:05] And she didn't particularly want to raise you guys, right?

[30:10] No again i don't want to make excuses um it would
have been hard to raise five kids by yourself but no there's no
like not that tight of a bond or
like a lot of direction you know i definitely won't let my son's get hernia
surgery and stuff like that maybe also her world view played into that sort
of entire very extremely anti-authoritarian just leave your kids be but i I
think in our complicated world, that isn't viable.
There needs to be some guidance.

[30:40] I'm sorry, she's anti-authoritarian?

[30:46] Well, in some regards. I mean, if you're anti-authoritarian.

[30:50] You shouldn't want to take money from the state, which is the ultimate authority, right?

[30:54] Right. I didn't mean that way. No, she's lazy.

[30:58] She's lazy. She doesn't want to raise her children and she doesn't want to give
you guys moral instruction.
She doesn't want to do some of the repetitive and slightly dull tasks of playing
games with children and teaching them, engaging with them. I mean, anti-authoritarian.
I mean, she's taking money from the state. So I don't know that she's anti-authoritarian.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it just be that she was just kind of a lazy mother?

[31:26] Yes, no, I would agree on that. But the anti-authoritarian part,
it was a stupid formulation.
I wasn't aware of the, you know, more sort of state theory aspect,
more of the German sort of leftist perspective of, you know, social equality.
Equality and um i don't know how much you know about that movement the 60s in
germany more that aspect but yes economically that's not anti-authoritarian.

[31:51] Well it's very pro-authoritarian yes so she was she she liked authority when
it got her paid she didn't like authority when it meant she had to be an engaged
and involved parent right,
So she's just kind of a hedonist, isn't she? Like when it's fun for her, she'll do it.
When she gets paid, she's pro-authority. But if having authority with her children
means they have to respect her, like you guys have to look up to her and respect
her and like her, well, that's a lot of work.
And then you have to play a lot with your kids and engage a lot with your kids.
And she didn't really want to do that, as far as I understand. Right.

[32:29] Yeah, no, that's correct.

[32:32] Okay, so as far as, you know, she had a bad childhood, I don't care.
I mean, I don't care. I mean, because having a bad childhood means that you
know exactly what a bad childhood is, and therefore you're completely responsible
for not reproducing it, right?
I mean, you're completely responsible. Well, you know, like if you grow up with
a guy, with a father who's a drunk, right? Then you say, gee,
I really shouldn't touch alcohol because there's a family history of this, that, and the other.
I know how bad it is to have a drunk around, so you don't drink, right?

[33:14] Right. But one thing I'm wondering is, I'm finding it hard to really ascribe
the sort of malevolence to her.
Like to decide if it is really malevolence or just incompetency with the you
know the autism aspect i mentioned and like legitimately being traumatized i'm
not sure if she really had the capacity to do it or if it was like a willing
egotistical choice i'm finding it hard to do ascribe that oh no that's.

[33:40] That's easy yeah and no it's malevolence yeah that's easy,
because she doesn't give you excuses right.

[33:52] Yeah, I suppose.

[33:54] I'm sorry if I'm wrong. I suppose it's language that drives me a little crazy
because I don't know whether it's true or not or whether you're kind of agreeing
to be nice or like, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.
That's totally right. I mean, I don't want to get anything wrong.
But I mean, obviously, I'm kind of struck by the fact that she told you to suck
up massive pain from an incompetent surgeon, it sounds like, when you were an adult.
And I assume that when you were a child, she held you responsible or accountable
for the things that you did as a child, right?
Yes so i can't claim,
to not know japanese if i
speak japanese right i mean that's
almost a tautology right if i speak japanese fluently and
engage in conversations with japanese people and and all of that read japanese
books then i can't claim to not know japanese right right okay so she fully
understands the concept of cause and effect and human responsibility and accountability
because she held you accountable and responsible as a child.
So she fully understands the concept that people are responsible for their choices,
should choose better, and should experience negative consequences if they choose badly.
And Om, how did she punish you as a child if she did that?

[35:16] Verbally, mostly. sometimes even threats of violence but no actual violence.

[35:24] So she never hit you no and what would she say to you verbally and what threats would she give you.

[35:34] Things like I'll give you a reason to cry about let me try to remember,
yeah just sort of very criticizing criticizing um calling me a cry baby or something like that oh.

[35:52] So she would mock and humiliate you for being upset about something.

[35:57] Yeah and you.

[36:00] Don't think that's malevolent.

[36:04] No you know rationally i think i have realized that it's just hard to come to
terms with reality that you know the only person who was supposed to be there for you sold you out.

[36:16] I'm not sure what you mean by sold you out.

[36:18] Well you know basically she doesn't care about my own best interest but hers well.

[36:26] I i'm not sure exactly what that means but she's malevolent right i mean if
you mock a child for being upset call them a crybaby and so on that's malevolent.

[36:40] Yes, absolutely. No, I'm not talking about the psychological reality of accepting
that. That, you know, is the reality of what happened to me.

[36:49] But you want to be a psychologist, right?

[36:54] Yes.

[36:55] So being a psychologist, I assume, has something to do with getting people to accept the truth.
Now, I'm not saying that makes it immediately easy for you to do it,
but that's sort of the deal, right?

[37:06] Yeah, absolutely.

[37:08] So why do you think it's tough? Now you can, sorry, before I get to that,
the reason why I would say that, I don't know, what do I know about autism, right?
But an autistic person shouldn't know, like if they genuinely don't understand
human emotions, then they wouldn't know how to be psychologically abusive.
They wouldn't know how to be cruel. They wouldn't know how to hurt someone.
Does that make sense?

[37:34] Yeah.

[37:35] So if your mother knows, oh, if I say this, this is really humiliating,
then she fully understands human emotions, right?
Like a guy who's an expert torturer can't claim he has no knowledge of the human
body because he knows exactly what to do where to cause the most pain, right? Yeah.
I mean, he doesn't lightly tap his fingers on your scalp and say,
look at me, I'm torturing you, right? Right?
So she fully understands human emotion, as far as I can tell,
because she is saying things that are about as hurtful as possible. Is that right?

[38:16] Yes.

[38:17] Did she say different things to your siblings, or was it always the same script
that she followed when it came to saying things that were hurtful?

[38:31] Um, well, as far as I, um, witnessed it, um.

[38:35] There's no other way other than what you witnessed. We don't have a camera, right?

[38:39] No, no. But the point is, um, the stuff we did, she did with me was mostly in private.

[38:45] So from what you saw or in conversations you've had with your siblings,
did your mother use different tactics on say the boys versus the girls or in
other ways to cause pain?
Because not every child is going to be upset by the same things.

[39:06] No, as far as I know she was only
that abusive to me and I think there's a reason for that which is that,
I quite strongly resemble my dad physically and in terms of personality more so than my siblings.

[39:23] Right, okay. okay got it and do you know was she cruel at all to your siblings
or that you know of or was it was it just to you.

[39:36] I know um that my oldest brother he originally wanted to get into physics um
but struggled with math and i know she made quite a big deal out of that um,
he had been struggling with that for a long time as the only one, I think, in the family.
And I think, yeah, she really degraded him for that, but that's really the only thing I know about.

[40:04] And in what way did she degrade him?

[40:08] Well, I didn't witness it. I only know from him that she criticized him for
that, but I don't know how exactly.

[40:15] Well, hang on, sorry, but criticism is different from degrading, right?

[40:20] Right, yes. Yes.

[40:21] So I'm not saying you're wrong. I just want to make sure I understand what you mean by degrading.

[40:27] Yeah, no, but it must have been degrading because, you know,
it stayed in his mind and he reported it as, you know, being hurtful.
So probably it was degrading, but I didn't witness it.

[40:41] Okay. Okay. I mean, because if, you know, let's say that your child is just
not a good singer, but they want to be a singer, then you'd have to say,
well, you know, maybe we can take some lessons or whatever, but it doesn't sound
particularly good to me.
That's going to be upsetting to the child, right? That's going to hurt the child
a bit here and there, or maybe more than a bit.
But that's not abusive, right? Wouldn't it be more abusive to encourage your
child to pursue something that your child is just not good at?

[41:13] Yeah, yeah, certainly could be a form of abuse.

[41:17] I'm sorry, what do you mean? Oh, yeah, yeah, to encourage them to pursue something
they're not good at, right? Okay.
And did your mother, you said this was the only real relationship was with the
man who fathered her children, right?

[41:35] Yes, as far as I know.

[41:38] Okay. And she has not pursued other relationships since. and then was the man
much older than her? Is that why he's dead?

[41:46] No, he died quite young at 63 because of a congenital heart issue.
And then he had a valve replacement surgery, but those valves were infected
and another emergency surgery and yeah, that didn't go well.

[42:01] Good Lord. Remind me never to get ill in Germany. Pretty bad.
It's pretty bad. Okay. Okay.
And did your mother inherit? You said that there was issues with the inheritance
of your biological father.
Did your mother inherit money from his estate, or I guess did the kids?
Did you and your sibling?

[42:22] Link um yeah so the constellation is that
because they weren't married or in any sort of um like
legally uh dated relationship she didn't um where she has the house because
that was already in her name from the start uh but she didn't um but because
we are biological kids we did uh however However, my dad,
after my mom, had another wife and he actually married her.
So that was also a bit upsetting because they married shortly before he died
and it was foreseeable that he would die.
And that's the point when they married.
So she got half of that and me and my siblings got our shares.

[43:13] Wow. So your mother was really rejected by this guy.
I mean, I guess he had a bunch of kids with her, but he actually chose to marry
another woman rather than the mother of his five children?

[43:28] Yes.

[43:29] Man, she must have been unbearable.
I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but I mean, how much do you have to not like a
woman that you cut her children out of your estate?

[43:44] Wait the last formulation i don't get he cut her out but not us.

[43:48] Well um,
the money would flow to your mother and to you guys i guess over time right
because your mother wouldn't spend all the money and then you would end up inheriting
what she didn't spend right,
yes yes so the money would flow towards you guys which isn't happening because
now the other woman The woman that he married, sorry, did you remind me,
did he have kids with her?

[44:16] No.

[44:18] Okay, so he married a woman with no kids rather than marry the woman who had five kids with him.

[44:28] Yes.

[44:29] Okay, so he's kind of an asshole. Because, I mean, if he's going to die anyway,
or I guess, no, I guess it wouldn't necessarily have to be marriage.
He could have amended his will to give the money
to you guys or or to his to to your mother he could have just he wouldn't have
had to do it through through marriage right right and there were no if i understand
this rightly there were no special provisions in the will for you and your siblings there.

[45:00] Was no will it was just the legal procedure.

[45:03] There was no will this guy's super super wealthy, or wealthy,
and he has no will? And he knew he was going to die?

[45:13] Yes.

[45:14] How is that possible?

[45:17] Well, I suppose he didn't want to decide after the chaos and tumultuous relationships.
Maybe he just didn't want to decide. I don't know.

[45:26] Yeah, I guess we'll never know. Okay, so when you become an adult,
your father, how do you get back in touch with your father? How does that work?
I mean, does he approach you? do you approach him? How did you end up in a relationship
with your father as an adult?

[45:40] I approached him because at that time that was when I was already living with
the chronic pain with my mom and she basically wanted to kick me out because
she found my depressive state unbearable.
And I had thought previously about, in my youth, age 15, 16,
I thought about moving in with my dad.
So at that point, I executed it and sort of lived with him for a while,
but also started studying.

[46:13] And how did that work when you got back in touch, I guess you initiated contact
with your father when you were an adult, and how did he receive that?

[46:25] He was very happy because I was the only one of his children who at that point had contact with him.

[46:33] He was happy?

[46:34] Yeah.

[46:36] Sorry, I'm a little confused. If he wanted relationships with his children through
your mother, is that right?

[46:48] How do you mean, through my mother?

[46:50] I'm sorry, I mean, he had other children, right?

[46:53] Yeah.

[46:54] Not through your mother.

[46:56] Yes.

[46:56] So he wanted a relationship with you and your four siblings of some kind, is that right?
Because you said he was happy when you contacted him.

[47:06] Yeah yeah it seemed like that but i think he would rather not have that relationship
if he had to deal with my mom because that was similar the way it went i'm.

[47:15] Sorry that was what.

[47:16] That was the way it went when he split up with her he also split up with us
but it seemed like he did want to have contact with us but since we were you
know tied to my mom i guess that was the eliminating factor for him so.

[47:30] She was so horrible that he couldn't have a relationship with you.

[47:38] Um yes but at this point i would also like
to add um that at least from what she told us at this point i'm skeptical about
it he was also physically and verbally abusive but i'm not sure if i believe
that anymore because that uh happened to take place uh just after the new house had been built.

[48:01] Oh, so after she gets the new house, suddenly he's abusive.

[48:06] Yeah. And again, I don't have...

[48:10] Did she file a police report? Did she contact the authorities?
Did she make sure that he would be held accountable for his physical violence,
especially because he has children and other wives and other girlfriends and so on?

[48:24] No.

[48:25] Right. I knew, of course, I knew that that was the case, right?
I knew that that she would complain that he was physically violent, but not go to the police.
Right. And the timing, of course, is right. So she's quite a character, your mother.
Quite something.
Okay. So how did it go with your father when you moved in?
Did he have a new family, other kids? I don't know where he was in his breeding carousel at this point.

[49:02] And no at that point uh he was single for a short time that was about a year
before he met his late later wife okay so yeah how did.

[49:11] Things so his kids had already moved out and so how did things go with you and him.

[49:19] Well you know it was strange uh meeting your dad as an adult for the first time
was sort of like a male friendship.
Just, I don't know, going out, hiking to restaurants, just talking because,
you know, we didn't really know each other despite being father and son.

[49:37] Well, you hadn't really had any contact with him, right?

[49:40] Yeah.

[49:41] I mean, did you have any contact with him as a child?

[49:47] Yes, but very little. Like, I remember a handful of times that I met him when
I was quite young, him being at the house.

[49:53] Right. And he would meet you at your house?

[49:58] Yeah.

[50:00] Okay. And so then when you start to interact with him as an adult,
you said it was kind of awkward.
Can you give me any more details? How was he as a whole?

[50:18] Well, maybe the autistic genes come from him Yeah.

[50:23] You keep saying this autistic thing I don't It seems like this is just a modern
catchphrase For all of this kind of stuff But, you know, people are awkward
Ah, they're autistic You know, people have It used to just be called guilt, didn't it?
People are fathers who Don't spend any time with their children Feel guilty
Oh, he's awkward, oh, he's autistic It's like, we have all of these,
I don't know, neurological explanations For moral phenomenon that don't make any sense to me at all.
I mean, if I had five children and I didn't spend any time with them, I'd feel terrible.
And it would be awkward to spend time with them, right?
So I don't know where the autism thing comes in. Like, can't you just be guilty
for terrible things you've done?

[51:15] No, but I don't see it as mutually exclusive. So I'm not saying that to rid
him of his guilt, but just, you know, all the peculiarities and,
like, special interests in my family are quite striking.
So he never left the village he grew up in. He was really obsessed with horses
and nature and, like, not aware that that mightó Yeah.

[51:35] He's quirky. I get it. he's a smart guy, he's quirky, he's eccentric.
We used to call this in England, right? Eccentric.
So yes, sometimes people with giant brains have unusual focuses,
but how is it more bizarre to be focused on horses than it is to care about
which stupid local sports team wins the ball game?

[52:00] Oh no, I personally don't think it is. You know, I'm similar, so...

[52:05] I mean, I mean, everybody has their quirky little obsessions or everybody has
their, you know, odd little focuses.
And I mean, I don't know. It just, I believe in autism, you know,
when the kid can't make eye contact and can't brush his teeth and can't leave the house.
Like I'll, you know, I remember reading a woman who was saying her son was really
autistic and she'd have to spend like 45 minutes every morning just trying to
get him to brush his teeth because he would like scream and turn away and like, okay.
And that's like a serious thing. thing but he likes horses too much come on come on yeah.

[52:42] No i guess it is um a scale but um.

[52:48] It's a form of uh avoiding responsibility it's a form of of excuse.

[52:58] Right. But I suppose also it gives me some power in explaining it,
making sense of it, possibly.

[53:06] No, but don't you want an explanation that's true? Otherwise it's just superstition.
Ah, the volcano is erupting because the fire god is angry. Oh,
look, I have an explanation. It's like, no, you don't.

[53:19] This is made up. Now, again, I don't know if he's got neurological scans or
I don't know, they find something wild about his brain. I mean,
that could be another matter, but people who make bad decisions are not always autistic.
They're just sometimes, they're just bad people. You know, they're lazy,
malevolent, incompetent, greedy, narcissistic, or even narcissistic is another
one of these words that waves away moral responsibility.
I'm just, I'm a moral responsibility guy, right? I mean, you know that about me.
So i'm just like in in the absence of
of significant physical diagnoses i
go to morals right so obviously if you say well
my father had a a giant brain he was a great dad he had a giant brain tumor
that ate away significant portions of his brain and after that he was uh you
know violent right if you were to say he was a real peaceful guy he had a brain
tumor ate away significant portions of his brain, and then he was violent,
I'm not going to say, gee, he decided to violate the non-aggression principle of his own volition.
It'd be like, no, your father's brain was severely damaged, and this obviously
altered his personality.
I mean, there's tons of, I mean, I'm sure you've read these things in psychology as well, right?
There's tons of things where people have, I mean, there's a famous one from the 19th century.
Some guy got a railway spike through his forehead and completely changed his personality.

[54:48] So, if there's, you know, significant physical evidence,
you know, some kid gets meningitis and then, you know, drops 30 IQ points or
something because the meningitis bacteria or whatever it is,
the virus, eats away at her brain or his brain.
Okay, absolutely, you know, that's a real tragedy and there's significant physical markers.
And if there are significant physical markers, you don't want to make the mistake
of ascribing moral characteristics to involuntary things.
So of course, in the past, epilepsy was considered a sign of demonic possession.
So that's wrong. That's unjust.
That's unfair because it's an involuntary physical disorder.
So epilepsy is not the result of demonic possession. So you don't want to say,
oh, that kid who has these seizures, the seizures are because he's immoral and
he's courting demonic possession.
So that's wrong, right? But at the same time, just as you don't want to ascribe
moral phenomenon to involuntary.

[56:01] Actions, you also don't want to ascribe involuntary actions to moral phenomenon, right?
So, you know, if my wife rolls over in bed and asleep and she smacks me in the
head, that's not assault, that's just, you know, it's an accident, right?
So I'm not going to sit there and say, how nasty of you to thump me,
that's terrible, right? I'm going to call the police, right?
Because it's an involuntary thing, so I'm not going to ascribe any moral characteristics.
Characteristics but we've kind of so we've we've gone from that to
now we've gone to the other extreme which is now we're ascribing
involuntary causes of moral characteristics like a moral choices and now we're
saying oh well autism or this or that but this again if there's some big diagnosis
he gets brains why he's not going
to get brain scans now because he's dead but why would would we go to,
autism when he could just be really, really selfish? Because he was.
Right? Because he was married and he had five children with another woman.
Knowing that he could not be a father to both families.
So that is incredibly selfish. It's hedonistic. It's vile.
It's contemptible it's immoral.

[57:29] And I don't have a magic wand called autism where I could just wave tell me where does that stop,
then everybody who makes a bad choice we can wave an imaginary diagnosis of
a neurological thing and say well they had no choice,
well okay Okay, so what happens to morality?
And of course, if we do that, I'm not saying you, but we do,
you do this a little bit, but society does it a whole lot, right?
Except when society doesn't like someone, right? So, you know,
when the whole vaccination debate was going on under COVID, people didn't say,
well, the anti-vaxxers are autistic and we should have sympathy for them.
No, oh no, they're just bad people or whatever, right? If somebody says something
bigoted, we don't say, well, you know, he's autistic, he doesn't understand these things.
Oh, he's a racist, right? We go get him, right? He's a bad guy.
Or when children misbehave.
A lot of times the parents don't say, well, you know, you might have a neurological
challenge and so on, so I'm not going to expect good behavior out of you.
No, we say, oh, the kids are bad and have to be punished.

[58:39] I mean, you were punished as a child. Your mother threatened to beat you as a child, right?
And your mother was verbally vicious towards you, she didn't say,
oh, well, you know, I guess you might have this autism thing,
this magic little ghost that removes you of responsibility.

[59:00] Well, the thing is, she actually did that for my brothers, which was also quite
frustrating, because they did have the diagnosis, which basically always made
them like poor victims that needed support.

[59:11] I'm sorry, did you say brothers plural? I thought you only had one brother who
was Autistic, is it more than one?

[59:18] It's my two oldest brothers. They're twins.

[59:20] Oh, the two oldest brothers are diagnosed as autistic. And how are they functioning in the world?

[59:27] Well, they're trans.

[59:30] Okay. All right.

[59:33] I don't know. They seem to be happy with that. I'm somewhat skeptical about
that whole ordeal. But I can fix it, so.

[59:41] Right, right. Okay, okay. Okay. And what's your relationship like?
Sorry, how did things play out with your father in the couple of years you knew him before he died?

[59:52] Well, it was mostly more of a comfortable home life than with my mom,
especially once he had his new wife. So I actually got to meet her quite a few times.
That's like the first time I experienced a harmonious home life.
So there were good moments, but there were also moments where his selfish,
narcissistic side shone through.
He was also sometimes verbally abusive and dismissive of my pain.
So it was a mixed bag as well.

[1:00:23] Right. And did you talk to him about any of the issues you had with him as a
father? Did you talk about any of this stuff with him before he died?

[1:00:40] Yes, but he played the same game as my mom, basically blaming it all on her
and saying, for example, the abuse allegations were made up.

[1:00:51] Um sorry can you say that again he um
you said that the allegations your mother had about him being physically and
emotionally abusive were made up yeah right but did you did you did you say
to him you know what what kind of person has five kids with a toxic mother and then abandons,
those children to their mother no.

[1:01:16] We never had that conversation.

[1:01:17] Well no it's not we never you would have to initiate that i assume right yeah.

[1:01:22] But you know that's tough um after not having contact with him then starting
it and immediately like drawing it to that serious uh topic.

[1:01:36] Um, that's a lot of words for saying I didn't want to tell the truth, isn't it?

[1:01:44] Sure. No, I absolutely agree. And that's also something I've, I have trouble with.

[1:01:49] I mean, you, you, you had, you had objective reasons to complain, right?

[1:01:57] Yeah.

[1:01:58] And you didn't really complain, or you weren't particularly honest, if I understand this.
You weren't particularly honest, and I understand why. I mean,
there's some causality that makes sense.
But in the years that you knew your father, you didn't tell him the truth about
your suffering as a child, I assume, and sort of hold him accountable.

[1:02:24] Nope.

[1:02:28] And you can say, okay, well, when we first met, right, whatever, right?
And I would assume that you didn't want to confront him because then you would
be afraid that he might send you back to your mother's. Would it be something like that?

[1:02:40] Yeah, absolutely.

[1:02:41] Okay. Okay, but then after a while, right, when things, when your health,
when your pain improved,
or I shouldn't say that, when your pain resolved to some degree,
why not say something to him before he died to get some kind of resolution or
some connection that way?
Or was it now, well, he's dealing with dying, I don't want to make things more
stressful. Like, was there always some reason as to why this shouldn't happen?

[1:03:10] So the phase when I declined shortly before his death was also the phase when my pain came back.
And it also happened quite suddenly. So at first, it looked like he was sick,
but not that seriously sick.
And then him dying happened quite fast. And he first had an amputation because
of a blood vessel congestion, and then suddenly died.
So that all happened quite quick. And honestly, dealing with the chronic pain
and strong medication, I was struggling to stay alive, both physically and psychologically.

[1:03:45] Right, okay. So in the couple of years that you were in contact with him,
there was just never really a good time?

[1:03:53] Yeah. Okay.

[1:03:58] And what about your mother? Have you talked to her with any frankness about
your experience of being her child?

[1:04:05] Yeah, and that happened during that inheritance ordeal.
The thing was, my grandma also had some money, quite a bit, from her sister's husband.
Husband, and she bought a house in our name in Ireland, and basically my mom
wanted to snag that for herself,
and that was the moment where I started to see things like you and started to
question her having her own little pony estate,
and saying no, and I am getting the payout of that, and told her everything,
my experience, and she tried to gaslight me, me, try to talk behind my back with my siblings,
and they are mostly on her side.
So yeah, that's also been an issue.

[1:04:59] And when did that convo happen?

[1:05:03] When?

[1:05:04] Yeah.

[1:05:07] About a year and a half ago.

[1:05:12] And how have things been with your mother and your family since?

[1:05:18] Well, with my mother, mostly no contact. Through texts, she's sort of fake kind.
I have had to go back to the house a few times for errands and stuff.
And yeah, then she's verbally abusive again, especially when we're alone.
So yeah, basically no contact because I don't want it.

[1:05:38] Sorry, what does she say now? You said verbally abusive even now when you go
to the house, what does she say?

[1:05:48] Okay, this is sort of a stupid detail, but in grade school in Germany,
there's sort of an evaluation of students, not in terms of grades, but personality.
And she always disliked that I was described as sort of calm and shy.
And now she has a new cat who's quite big and strong.
And she basically said, you know, he would never be described as shy or something
stupid like that. Like it's really petty and dumb.
Things like that oh.

[1:06:19] So she's saying that her cat is much better than you yeah my god what a ball buster,
i'm so sorry man this is i'm so sorry i'm just this just terrible terrible terrible
behavior on the part of a parent,
Oh, I mean, you know, she should be there to help support and encourage and,
you know, make your life better.
And I'm so sorry. I mean, it's just terrible. It's terrible.
But your siblings are siding with her. Is that right?

[1:06:57] Yeah, and basically some of them doing the same thing, except for my sister.
And what's your sister's perspective? Sorry?

[1:07:10] What is your sister's perspective on these things?

[1:07:15] She's sort of split. She's always been the most supportive of me,
I think especially because she realizes how my mother is to me.
Um but i think uh she's also sort of the my mom's favorite child as the only girl and a doctor,
so of course she won't like side
against my mom i think she would rather side with her than with me hmm.

Inheritance Ordeal

[1:07:39] Okay i'm really sorry man this is uh i mean it it's it's one thing to be maltreated
by parents as a child, it of course is quite another thing,
to have siblings as adults side with the mother,
and so on. So I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry about that.
And how are you doing in terms of processing this grief and everything that's going on in this way?

[1:08:14] Yeah, I'm trying to appreciate the positives So at least finally I have,
like we're supportive friends, we're basically a replacement family.
I did get a decent amount of money from the inheritance, you know,
I'm physically healthy. That's one coping aspect.
And the other is just trying to get away from it, distance myself,
hopefully meet better people.

[1:08:42] I mean, sorry, if I understand this correctly, you have met some better people,
right? I mean, you said your friends who are more supportive now.

[1:08:49] Yeah, sure. But they're spread out all over the country now because I had to
move for studies and they had to move.

[1:08:55] Oh, they had to move. Okay. And okay, so I guess the last one is to talk about
your relationship, the dating thing.

[1:09:06] Yeah. So as I said, I have a lot of loose experiences.
But the only real committed relationship that happened when my pain resurfaced.
And yeah, that was a mess as well. So I later found out that when we weren't
officially together, just getting to know each other, she was hiding the fact
that she had a boyfriend from me.
And at that point, we almost split. But again, that was my absolute low point
where I needed all the support I could get.
So I tolerated that, and she eventually split up with him.
But at the end, I don't know if this is true.
Maybe I don't want to make excuses for her, but she was also somewhat mentally
ill. She claimed to be dating a 40-year-old married man.
So I ended things there and was also struggling quite a bit.

[1:10:01] So your mother dated a married man, and your girlfriend dated a married man.

[1:10:07] Yeah.

[1:10:09] You don't have to have a degree in psychology to see that pattern, right?

[1:10:16] Yeah. And that's what I meant by my family was a prelude to other things I would experience.

[1:10:24] No, no, no, that's causality, right?
That's causality. You could have, of course, very easily, or not easily,
but it certainly is possible for you to say,
gosh, my mother was bad, and therefore I really have to avoid women who have
mental health problems.

[1:10:49] Right so saying well my my mother was a prelude
well uh no your mother could have been a
lesson on what to avoid right and listen i say this with all humility because
you know i i didn't learn this lesson until i was older than you right so i'm
not trying to say i'm not trying to give you any any oh look at me how wise
i am i was still uh retarded in dating into my 20s mid-20s and and so on.
So, I say this with all humility, but there's no direct causality,
because you're kind of a domino guy, right?
There's a lot of causality that's going on here. A lot of, well,
this happened because of this, right?
And I want to break that causality in you.
I want to break that causality in you, because causality is just an excuse,
with another syllable, right? Right. Causality is an excuse.
So we look back upon our lives, right, and we say, well, I did this thing that
was unwise, and I did this thing that was cruel, or I did this thing that was
unproductive, I did the other thing, right?
We look back and we have criticisms of ourselves, right?

[1:12:03] Right.

[1:12:05] And what do we do with those criticisms? Well, we learn from those criticisms
when we start making excuses.
So i was not a very good boyfriend in my teens i wasn't terrible but i wasn't great,
now i can certainly say because i was still legally like i was this is when
before i became sort of like 18 i i went to go and work up north in gold panning
and prospecting and i was gonna kind of off the map,
off the radar for dating for quite some time working in the bush.
Sorry, working in the bush. I get it. So I can look and say, well,
the reason why I was not a good boyfriend or not a great boyfriend in my teens
is because of my family life.
Now, did that have an effect? Absolutely.

Relationship Realizations

Absolutely. Absolutely, but could I have chosen differently?
Yes. Did I have a conscience and an instinct that I was not being a very good
boyfriend? I certainly did.

[1:13:21] So it's when I say, I can't give myself the excuse of the past,
that's when I can learn from it.
The past has to give us more than excuses, otherwise we'd never escape it.
And the reason for that is that when we say, the past gives me an excuse,
we lower our moral sensitivity and willpower in the present,
because the present is the past in the future we use as an excuse so the present
becomes an excuse for us as well saying i did wrong because of the past is saying
i can do wrong in the present,
because i have that excuse available to me in the future does that make sense,

[1:14:08] Yeah, no, I get it.

[1:14:35] It's just dominoes. It's no particular free will. I'm sort of thinking of a
prominent atheist here, but there's tons of examples of this, right?
So when I said at the beginning of the conversation, you seem to be carrying
a weight, or you seem to be carrying a burden,
I think that burden is a kind of determinism.
Because is it fair to say that, that and obviously if i'm wrong you know tell
me i i'm not i want to get things right i don't want to be right i want to get
things right so if i'm wrong but is it fair to say that you might be a little
bit short of enthusiasm in your life,
yeah at the current stage.

[1:15:24] Yes there have been different phases but currently yes.

[1:15:28] Well, and I understand the year of pain and so on, but for six years you've
been quite unhappy, right?

[1:15:42] Yeah.

[1:15:43] And then before that, you were quite unhappy because you didn't have a father
and you were being raised in a household of significant dysfunction and a very
or fairly nasty mother. Do I have that right?

[1:15:59] Yes. I would agree.

[1:16:02] So you have not had a lot of happiness in your life. Is that right?

[1:16:13] Yeah.

[1:16:15] And so the question is then,
Why was there so much unhappiness in your life?
And the unhappiness you had as a child was primarily the result of the decisions
of your mother and your father.
I mean, if you had, you know, happy, pleasant, functional, healthy,
loving, attentive parents, then you would not have been as unhappy, right?

Unhappiness and Determinism vs. Personal Choices

I mean, you wouldn't have been
unhappy other than it happens from time to time, just based on living.
You stub your toe, someone says something mean to you that sticks in your heart
and it takes a little while to shake that off sometimes, but you wouldn't have
been unhappy in the same kind of way, is that right?
So then, were you unhappy because of determinism, or were you unhappy because of people's choices?
Which comes down to, could they choose better? Could they have chosen better? Does that make sense?

[1:17:35] Yes. No, and I absolutely see that it's the result of other people.
And I think I have been victimized quite a few times.
And what I'm struggling to do is to draw the consequences from that.
You know, the positive consequences, putting it into action to improve my life is what I'm aiming at.
But with everything to overcome, it's tough.

[1:18:03] Sorry, that's a bit of a word salad that I don't know how to unravel.
But let me sort of tell you the other side of this.
So should I, if I were to do a podcast, right, and you were to listen to this
podcast, I know you haven't listened for a while much, but, you know,
let's say you decide to touch in,
and I do a podcast where I'm outraged and really, really angry that I'm aging.
You know, like I'm 57, I'm enraged. This shouldn't be happening to me, right?
There's an old Friends episode where Joey was like, he turns 30,
he's like, why, God, why, why are you making me age? We had a deal, right?
And it's comedy because, right? So if I were to make a podcast that I'm enraged,
you know, my jowls are sagging, I don't have as much muscle strength,
I have to get up at night to pee now, like I'm enraged at aging,
I'm angry at aging, what would you think?

[1:19:07] Well it's pointless.

[1:19:10] Well it would be a denial of reality and a mark of craziness wouldn't it,
um yeah no it would i mean it would be like for somebody to like i could make
jokes and say gee you know it's kind of frustrating i can't do what i used to
do but whatever like if i was i was really angry.

[1:19:34] At aging which is an inevitable process and actually aging is the mark of successful living,
you know like i remember when i was a kid you'd have these really old people
around and you think oh my gosh that's terrible and you're like now that you
get older you're like hey they're the the most successful people around, right?
Because they made it, right? To 90 or whatever, right?
Now, I do think that people let themselves get overly frail as they age,
and I think it's really important to, you know, keep exercising.
Mick Jagger's a famous health nut,
and you can see him running around the stage at the age of 78 and so on.
You know, you don't have to get, you know, old and like, I'm going to be 58 this year.
I can still do an hour and a half of pretty serious bracket sports and so on,
like you're trying to stay strong as long as possible.
You know, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was still working out in her 80s or whatever, however old she was.
So to be enraged at that which is not chosen is wrong.
It's a mark of immaturity. So, if you hear a parent, and they're yelling at
their three-year-old saying, you have to learn how to defer gratification.

[1:20:56] Well, these three, right? His brain is tiny, right? I mean, it would be crazy, right? Right?
If you saw a mother yelling at her infant, how dare you poop your diaper?
Hold on until you're at a toilet, for God's sakes.
What's the matter with you? That would be crazy, right?

[1:21:17] Yeah.

[1:21:18] Because they're ascribing moral standards to something that can't have it,
can't contain it, right?
I mean, if,
your waiter spills something on you and then you find out that they just suddenly
had their very first epileptic attack, you'd have sympathy. You wouldn't be angry, right?

[1:21:43] Right, yes.

[1:21:44] And sorry for all of these repetitive analogies, but it's really, really important. So,
if you say,
my father chose to abandon me, me.
Then you're going to have some outrage, some anger at his moral choice,
right? At his willed actions, right?
Now, if you were, like, if you called me and you said, well,
my father, I just, I didn't see my father after the age of five.
Right? And I say, oh, well, what happened? If you say, well,
he decided to leave and he moved and whatever, he became a mime in Queensland,
Australia or something like that, right? It's like, okay, well,
that's really irresponsible.
You have kids, you shouldn't do that. but if you were to say,
he was killed by a drunk driver you know he was driving, he was obeying the
traffic law some drunk driver crossed the median and killed him,
then I would say well your father didn't abandon you does that make sense?
No that wasn't his choice it was the choice of the drunk driver,
you can be,
angry at the drunk driver. You can't be angry at your father for being killed
by a drunk driver. Does that make sense?

[1:23:05] No.

[1:23:06] I mean, you can be angry at the situation and you can hurt and all that,
but it wouldn't be your father's moral choice. So the reason I'm saying all of this,
is that when you ascribe causality to what is in fact a moral choice,
choice, you destroy your own capacity for anger.
If your father and your mother are not responsible for what they did because
of bad childhoods or autism or all of the the things that we've sort of talked
about in this conversation.
If your parents are genuinely not responsible for their own bad choices,
then you getting angry at them would be immature.
It would be wrong. It would be unjust.
Does that make sense?

[1:24:07] Yeah.

[1:24:08] Like if you have a son who's five foot one, then getting angry at him for not
making the basketball team is kind of crazy, right?
Or if he's got a really bad voice it's getting angry at him for not making the
choir would be wrong it's not his fault he's 5 foot 1 it's not his fault that,
he's got a bad singing voice,
So when you give this causality, you gain some relief in the moment because
you don't have to judge people morally,
but it comes at the massive cost of your own conscience and instincts.
You cut off your own capacity for anger and conscience,
because to be angry let's say somebody is genuinely autistic right brain scans
whatever I don't know like genuinely autistic then getting angry at them for
not being emotionally sensitive,
would be wrong I mean you might get frustrated from time to time but it would
be unjust to blame the person for something beyond his or her control does that make sense,
sorry I'm not sure what means I don't know if you're agreeing or not Yes.

[1:25:28] No, no, no, I agree.

[1:25:31] No, and I'm not trying to criticize you. I just, I don't know.
So if your parents didn't make moral choices, but they have bad childhoods,
autism, whatever, like that they just not, then you can't get angry at them.

[1:25:50] Justly, right? I mean, if you did get frustrated, you'd say,
well, I understand the frustration, but it's wrong.
It's not rational. Whereas if somebody is cruel to you, and they're making a
moral choice, and they're morally responsible for that choice,
then getting angry at them is healthy.
But if you hand over the excuse called determinism,
whether it's biological or historical on sort of bad childhoods or whatever,
if you hand over this excuse called determinism,
then you rob yourself of choice.
When you rob yourself of choice, you rob yourself of enthusiasm.
When you rob yourself of enthusiasm, you rob yourself of the possibility of meaning.
So, you're calling me because I run a philosophy show, which I'm incredibly
enthusiastic about, as you can, I think, understand based upon all of the headwinds
and blowback and punishments and attacks that I've endured and continue to do it.
I'm very enthusiastic about this philosophy show. Now, if I were a determinist.

[1:27:07] If I said, well, people can't change because of their bad childhoods,
or anybody who's mean is actually autistic and it's a neurological thing and
we shouldn't blame them, we shouldn't hold anyone responsible or accountable,
would I be enthusiastic about doing a show based on moral philosophy?

[1:27:26] Why not? Because there would be no moral implications.

[1:27:29] No, that would be like, if I know that people can't age backwards,
so I don't do a show on how to age backwards because it's impossible.
So, I have a show basically called Moral Accountability, which only exists and
I'm only enthusiastic about because I hold people morally responsible,
which means they have the power to change.
I mean, if you believe that everyone ate inevitably based upon what they were
fed as children, you'd never be a dietician. You'd never be a nutritionist, right?

[1:28:01] Yes.

[1:28:01] So what is the price of you not holding your parents accountable?
Responsibility? Emotion? Anger? Outrage? Enthusiasm for something better? Free will?
Enthusiasm? Meaning? See, when I hear the people who have the kind of heavy
tone and don't really have any enthusiasm and, you know, a joke.
It might make them laugh, but it sounds like they just pulled stitches at the same time.
And I know, I know that I'm dealing with someone who's got deterministic qualities to their thinking.

[1:28:48] I'm not enthusiastic,
to be a dancer, like a professional dancer.
A, because I'm 57. 7b because I mean I'm not too bad at dancing at a disco but
I certainly can't learn dance steps to save my life I tried in theater school
it was not my thing at all so I don't really have the choice to do it so I don't
have enthusiasm now I happen to be pretty good at philosophy and in particular moral philosophy,
so I can pursue that I have the choice to do it because I accept the choices
of value I accept that people can choose and I want them to choose better so
I'm very enthusiastic for that,
but if you believe that life is just a series of dominoes,
then what really can you will?
And if you can't will anything, you can't choose anything, what is there to
be enthusiastic about? You just hang around waiting for the next domino to hit you.

[1:29:46] Your parents, my friend, and your siblings, with obviously the exception of
your autistic siblings, but your parents and two out of the five siblings,
are 100% responsible for their choices.
And we know that because they hold other people 100% responsible for their choices.
Your mother didn't give you any excuses.
Excuses. Doesn't sound like your father gave you any particular excuses.
He also got annoyed at your pain, right?

[1:30:21] Well.

[1:30:22] So your parents got annoyed at something you absolutely didn't want,
that you were completely the victim of, which was this botched surgery.
So your parents were angry at you for something that you were purely the victim
of, and they held you fully responsible for something you desperately didn't
want that was entirely outside of your control.
And then, you, I don't want to, I'm not mad at you, but you dare to try and
sell me that your parents aren't responsible?
They fully accept responsibility, in fact they inflicted responsibility on you
for something that wasn't your fault that you were suffering from.
How dare you excuse them from responsibility for things they actually chose
when they held you're responsible for something you never chose and desperately didn't want.
What they should have been doing is consulting with all of the best surgeons
and spending whatever time, money, and resources they possibly could in order to get this resolved.

The Burden of Holding Others Accountable

Working night and day to help you. Did they do that?

[1:31:32] No, and me seeing that that's possible in other families has also opened my
eyes, but I legitimately just thought that's the way it is. I didn't know it could be better.

[1:31:49] Now that's just not true. And I'm going to call you out on this 100%.
Because now you're giving yourself the excuse of, well, there's no way I could have known. Right?
There's no way I could have known that things could possibly have been better, right?
That's your case, right?
Is that right?

[1:32:19] Yes, now that you formulated it like that, I understand, but I wasn't aware of it previously.

[1:32:23] So why is that not true? How do I know that's not true?

[1:32:30] That I wasn't aware?

[1:32:31] How do I know that it's not true that you couldn't possibly have known that
families or anyone could treat you better.

[1:32:50] I frankly don't know.

[1:32:54] All right.
You were listening to me before 2018, am I correct?

[1:33:04] Yes.

[1:33:05] Right. Yes.
Could you, over the last, say, six years, have called in before?
Because you listened to call-in shows, you heard me unpack dysfunctional families
from a moral standpoint, right?
Yeah so you knew that there were alternate perspectives out there you knew that
there was better behavior right did you ever listen to a show with me and my daughter.

[1:33:32] I don't think so no.

[1:33:34] Right okay so you chose to stop listening or you chose not to call in although
you were fully aware that it was a completely free resource right.

[1:33:45] Yes I don't know if I knew at that time that it was free but I could.

[1:33:50] Have called it come on please don't nitpick me to death bro I'm 57 years old
I'm seeing the end of the horizon,
because you could have just asked right,
hey is this free yes it is Right?
Because you emailed me, and when you emailed me to talk, you didn't even ask me, is it free?

[1:34:22] No, I didn't.

[1:34:23] So you didn't really think it was charged, right?

[1:34:28] No.

[1:34:29] So that's not true either, right?
So you were aware...
For a long time, for many, many years, that there was something better out there.
You listened to shows where corruptions within family systems were morally examined,
and you chose to avoid calling in.
And I'm not blaming you or anything for this, right? I'm just, this is a fact, right?

[1:35:00] Yes.

[1:35:01] So if you choose to avoid knowledge, are you responsible? No.

[1:35:08] Yes.

[1:35:09] Right. Of course you are. I mean, if you choose not to study for a test,
are you responsible for failing the test? Yes, you are.
And again, I'm not blaming you for any of this, but when you say there's no
way I could have known, well, that's just not true. Right?
How long did it take to schedule this call? You emailed me what? Yesterday?

[1:35:31] No, I think today even.

[1:35:32] Today? Okay. So today I happen to have, I thought I had something on this afternoon
and I don't. so we could get this done, right?
Plus, I have a general soft spot for the German-speaking folk. But anyway,
so same day call, no cost, right?

[1:35:51] Yeah.

[1:35:55] And so when you say there's no way I could have known, that's more determinism.

[1:36:02] Yes.

[1:36:03] You'd literally listened to dozens, if not more, of shows where people...
Got to learn over the process of a moral examination of their lives,
their history, their choices, their parents, whatever, right?

[1:36:16] Yeah.

[1:36:17] So, no.
I mean, if I obsessively watch videos on geology and say there's no way I could
have known about geology, that's not very credible, is it?

[1:36:38] So, there's no way things could have been better, there's no way I could have known more.
I mean, that's just not particularly credible, right? I mean,
again, I'm not blaming you. I understand this.

[1:36:49] But don't try and tell me that you couldn't have known. Now, that's all I'm saying.
Like, when I'm offering a free service that you were perfectly aware of,
and, you know, other people or whatever, right, do similar things, so.
But you could have known, right? And the reason I'm saying all of this is because
I really, really, really want you to be responsible, right?
And I really want your parents to be responsible.
I want everyone in your life to be responsible.

[1:37:17] Because out of responsibility comes choice, enthusiasm, ambition, meaning.
But to be responsible, we have to swallow the bitter pill of where we weren't responsible.

Recognizing Personal Responsibility in Relationships

So for me to really come into my own as a philosopher, I had to recognize exactly
where I had not been responsible, which was largely in my personal relationships.
I had not been responsible. I was not responsible. I was living philosophy as
a theory, not as a practice,
and I had no excuse because the way that I approached philosophy was foundationally
from a standpoint of practicality.
So I couldn't say, well, you know, but philosophy is all about the platonic
ideal world of forms, and it doesn't really apply to daily life,
like all of this kind of crap. I could have, right?

[1:38:20] But I couldn't.
Because that's, so I say, I have a practical philosophy which is supposed to
be actionable in your daily life.
Hey, look, I'm not being practical in my daily life.
I'm not applying, I have a philosophy that you're supposed to apply to your
life. I'm not applying it to my life.
So I'm not philosophical.
Philosophical is, like I can't say, if I just read books on exercise,
I can't say I'm exercising.
Because exercise is supposed to be done. in motion, right? It's supposed to
be something you actually move.
If I don't change my diet, I'm not on a diet, no matter how many diet books I read.
I'm not a philosopher if I'm just reading and thinking about it and debating it, but not living it.

[1:39:10] So, I had to look at where I wasn't taking responsibility.
Now, let's get back to you, because it's not about me, right? Let's get back to you.
So, the question is, now, I know I just said there's no causality, right?
So we could just say you chose not to examine this aspect of your life.
But the question is why?
And the reason for that is there is usually a reason why we don't do things.
And we don't have any control over that reason if we
remain unaware aware of what it is right so
if i i don't know like every time i see my
mother i get psoriasis or something like that but i
don't make that connection then i just view psoriasis as
this kind of weird random thing that i kind of have to half deal with right
i don't know i don't notice the causality yeah so why did you avoid the knowledge
of how much better things could have have been in your life.
Was it beneficial to you to avoid that knowledge?

[1:40:24] Well, I think I was rationally interested
in having that knowledge and theoretically even implementing it,
but not ready to face the emotional implications and maybe too comfortable to
really put it into practice.
Because again, you know, I maybe have to confront or certainly have to confront
my mother, my parents, you know, just verbally tell them, yeah,
that it makes me angry and break these patterns.
And I can only hypothesize why I couldn't do that.

[1:41:01] So, yeah, I'm not ready is not much of an answer, right? Because you could apply
that to anything. Saying, well, I wasn't ready and I wasn't prepared.
And well, that doesn't really answer anything because that's,
that's tautological, right? Why did I do something?
I wasn't ready to do it, but that doesn't really answer much, right?
So I'll, I'll obviously, Cue Bono is important here.
Who benefits? So if you avoid the knowledge of the corruption within your family,
and let's talk about the long run, does that benefit you?

[1:41:33] No.

[1:41:34] Right. So who does it benefit? It has to benefit someone, otherwise it wouldn't happen, right?

[1:41:43] My parents.

[1:41:44] Right. So your parents did not want you to discover the corruption involved
in your parents' decisions, right?

[1:41:54] No.

[1:41:56] Now, of course, we all grow up wanting to please our parents,
no matter how dysfunctional they are.
In fact, the more dysfunctional they are, quite often, the more we want to please
them because there's not a strong bond.
So we end up wanting to please them because there's not a love. Does that make sense?

[1:42:18] Yes, absolutely.

[1:42:20] So we all grew up wanting to please our parents and so acting,
and the more dysfunctional they are, the more we want to please them.
because we want to please our parents and giving them full moral responsibility
is deeply upsetting and enrages them, it's upsetting to them and it enrages them,
then we don't want to give them, or rather they don't want us to give them full
moral responsibility because that's negative for them, although it's positive for us.

[1:42:58] I mean, if you have an uncle who is a thief, then it's better for the community
if you identify him and he is put on trial for his crimes, right?
Because then he'll stop stealing, at least if he goes to jail or whatever, right?
So it's beneficial to society. it's beneficial to you because then you don't
have a lying thieving corrupt guy around,
but it's bad for your uncle right yeah and
so we have this tension we want to do the right
thing and be honest and hold people responsible but the people who've done bad
things don't want to be held responsible right yeah of course so your parents
don't want to be held accountable and so you think oh maybe I should call Steph
or something like that or maybe it's therapy or something else right,
maybe maybe but then your parents in your head are like no don't do that don't do that.

[1:44:02] Because then he'll say that we're responsible I mean this is not a surprise
to you what I'm saying here right I hope it's not a deep shock that I'm holding
people morally responsible for cruelty to children or really bad decisions that harm children.

Balancing Accountability and Pleasing Authority

So your parents say, we don't want to be held responsible. We don't want to be held accountable.

[1:44:25] And you, who grow up, like we all do, wanting to please your parents,
you then please your parents by not talking to me.
But saying there was no way for you to do it or it was impossible is not true.
But understanding why you didn't call. And I know this sounds like causality and so on.
It's causality if you don't know why.

[1:44:51] Right? If I see my mother and get psoriasis every time and I don't understand
that connection, I'm helpless to stop my psoriasis.
If I understand that connection, then I can now make a decision to not see my
mother or whatever it is, maybe have an honest conversation with her about something that I'm...
And now I'm under control of my psoriasis because I know the causality.
So knowing why you avoid information,
knowing why you avoided calling me for years and years and years is important,
because then you can say,
okay, so I have a susceptibility to obey the selfish whims of corrupt authority figures.
And there's nothing wrong with that that's exactly
why we're alive it's why we survived it's why all of these things happen this
is why we are here because if you hadn't pleased your parents or if your ancestors
hadn't pleased their parents we wouldn't be here so I have no problem with that
it's perfectly sensible it's the right thing to do stay alive,
so if you know that about yourself and you say well I'm going to have a habit of.

[1:46:01] Sacrificing my own interests in order to appease corrupt authority figures,
ah, now you have some free will.
Now you have some choice. Does that make sense?

[1:46:13] Yes.

[1:46:14] But if you say, well, I couldn't have known what I couldn't have known,
then without any causality, you don't have any choice in the matter.
Because then you're kind of paralyzed in the present. Because if in the past you say,
well, I didn't discover the corruption of my family, but it was impossible for
me to do so, then you're also saying there's essential things in the present
that you won't know till later that's impossible for you to know in the present.
Does that make sense? Everything you apply to the past, you apply to the present.

Understanding Emotional Avoidance and Self-Responsibility

And you say well it was impossible for me to have that essential knowledge in
the past you're also saying to yourself it's impossible for me to have essential
knowledge in the present and then you call me and say i don't know what to do
with my life do you see the connection,
yes i i don't know where you're at i because i can't see you i don't know you
sound very distracted distracted.

[1:47:11] No no i'm not.

[1:47:12] Okay then where's your heart where's your emotions here i'm not sure where that
that's what's happening there um.

[1:47:22] Yeah so um it's hard to english right now uh the conversation took a route i
didn't anticipate but it's quite,
revelatory, revealing a lot of things I didn't anticipate. So yeah,
it's certainly interesting, but also emotionally moving.

[1:47:45] Alright, so tell me about the emotions.

[1:47:53] Honestly, I'm kind of sad for myself.

[1:47:59] Alright, so tell me about that.

[1:48:05] Well, just putting myself into the perspective of, you know,
a defenceless child in that situation and I know what it was like, I went through it.
And what I wanted to previously say is about the sort of dichotomy between determinism
and allowing yourself to feel anger.
I did feel a lot of anger, especially in my youth.
And sometimes still today. So it's not like I completely adopt that deterministic view.
But I'm struggling to really put that anger into a productive use.

[1:48:46] I'm struggling to put that anger into productive use.
So you have a view of your anger, it's like a tool that needs to be productive?

[1:48:56] No, because the alternative, the direct alternative is, I don't know,
maybe my view on this is weird.
But, you know, frankly, the direct
expression of anger would be physical violence, which I don't want to do.

[1:49:10] Oh, okay. So why would being angry translate to physical violence?

[1:49:17] I don't know it's just my impulse you know maybe a story I can recount by a childhood friend who,
later when in my later childhood I was somewhat fat and he sort of teased me
for having man boobs and my instinctive reaction was to choke him because I was taller and stronger,
so yeah it's just you know the instinctual reaction but I don't want to do that.

[1:49:40] Well I would argue that's not your reaction.

[1:49:45] That's all you react that's.

[1:49:47] Your mother that's your father okay so let's let's just go through the causality
here maybe i'm wrong but i'll tell you what strikes me doesn't mean i'm right
obviously so you were fat as a child right.

[1:50:02] Yeah and.

[1:50:05] Why were you fat as a child.

[1:50:12] I don't know I mean I wasn't that fat I was slightly chubby it's not like I
was obese okay why man boobs or boy.

[1:50:19] Boobs or whatever right so why were you overweight as a child.

[1:50:25] Well you're probably going to say neglect and it's probably true.

[1:50:29] Well did your mother notice you becoming overweight weight.

[1:50:33] Not that she said anything about it okay.

[1:50:40] So she so either she didn't notice or she noticed but didn't care.

[1:50:44] Yeah right.

[1:50:46] So did was there bad food in the house that you ate,
Like, you know, the German chocolates. I remember when my step-grandmother used
to come visit, she'd bring these giant bags of delightful chocolate and evil
marzipan, but that's a topic for another Old Testament rant.
So your mother had bad food around. I assume that you weren't engaged in sports
in any meaningful way when you were overweight?

[1:51:18] I did play soccer, but not that often, occasionally.

[1:51:22] Right, right. So she wasn't making sure you got your exercise and she wasn't
making sure you got healthy food or ate healthy food. Is that right?
No. Okay. So that's parental neglect.
I mean, it's bad parenting for your children to be overweight.
And, you know, maybe there's a little bit overpuberty or whatever,
right? There's some sort of, you know, like there's, I get all of that.
But it's bad parenting, isn't it?
Yeah i mean if you see if you see somebody with a really fat cat do you blame
the cat no of course not like goldfish right okay so when you were made fun of,
as a child for having breasts breasts, it led you to a path towards being angry at your mother.

[1:52:26] And that's your mother fighting back, not you.
Your mother doesn't want you going down the path of, okay, well,
yeah, you know what? I am fat, or I am overweight. You said not fat. So I am overweight.
So why? And then that leads you to, why doesn't anyone in my family care enough
about me to talk to me about this and figure out what's going on, make sure I deal with it?
Why am I so unloved that people don't help me out with this stuff?
Does this make sense?

[1:53:06] Yes.

[1:53:07] So the lashing back is, don't you dare.
Provoke my son into criticizing my parenting or having any issues with my parenting.
So you wanted, the violence was not yours, it was coming from your mother,
so that you wouldn't go down that route,
of learning about parental corruption and indifference.
So when you say, my anger leads to violence,
Well, I don't think so.
Where's the anger coming from? Is the anger even yours? Or is it someone else's?
If there's some kid who's being sexually abused, and the kid feels great terror
at going to the authorities, why does the kid feel great terror?
Who is generating the great terror in the child about going to the authorities,
a teacher or the police or whatever, with reports of sexual abuse? Is it the child?

[1:54:21] No, the abuser.

[1:54:22] That's right. It's the abuser, of course, right? So the child's fear is not
even the child's fear, it's the abuser's fear.
So how do you even know the anger is yours?
Now, of course, it would be nicer if your friend weren't just to make fun of
you, but was in fact to say, hey, you know, you're kind of packing on the pounds,
like what's going on, right?
And usually it means that you're depressed, alienated, isolated,
insulated and you're trying to get your dopamine however you can and if food
gives you dopamine well you need some reason to get out of bed in the morning
and if if it means because you can,
eat food that gives you dopamine then you'll do that right,
So that's number one. Number two, I would say, your anger is not there as a
tool that has to pass muster and prove its productive use before you feel it.
That's putting the cart before the horse. Okay, let me ask you this.
What evolved first, anger or higher human consciousness?

[1:55:39] Uh anger of.

[1:55:40] Course yeah anger is is fight or flight is around in almost all creatures right,
no i mean lizards will run away from you or turn and bite if you pick them up
right so fight or flight right uh you know there's this funny guy who wanders
around in florida picking up it's a crazy guy he like wanders around with with
bare feet among alligators and in the middle of the the swamp,
and he, yoink, he keeps picking up these things.

[1:56:08] Oh yeah, I've seen them.

Entertaining Insanity

[1:56:09] Yeah, he's, I mean, he's completely entertaining and completely insane,
which is not an uncommon combination, and seems to have, I'm pretty sure,
like, his last footage will just be found footage, like,
they'll find a cell phone inside a gator or something like that.
But anyway, oh, maybe he's right. Maybe he's, you know, this confidence is how
you deal with nature. I don't know.
I'm not an expert at these things at all, but But but,
That, oh, I'm sorry, I went one too far afield in my story. Let me sort of get
back to talking about anger.
So, yes, so anger, we see this guy, he picks up these little snakes and little
gators and they'll turn and bite him, right?
So, and they're not reasoning with him. He says, oh, you gave me a kiss,
you know, like not a kiss, right?
Of course he knows that, right? So anger predates us by billions of years.
And yet we look at something far older than us that has actually allowed us
to develop our higher reasoning.
And we say, you should obey me.
You have to prove your utility to me. Well, how about anger says to you,
stop bullshitting and let's be honest.
Because anger is what happens when injustice is separated from bullshit.

[1:57:38] And listen, we all bullshit ourselves when we're kids. We have to because we
can't get angry at our parents because they're required for us to survive, right?
But when we stop bullshitting and we say, yeah, my mom was mean and my dad abandoned
me and never was honest with me, your dad should have initiated conversations
with you about how he treated you and your siblings before he died.
And he was selfish to die without doing that.
That's not even in my view. That's, to me, stone-cold fact.
You owe your children honesty. You owe them sympathy. empathy
you owe them explanations as to why you did what you did
i mean my father was a pretty bad father but he did that at least to some degree
he gave me six hours of explanations on a bus from toronto to montreal and then
he stiffed me for a restaurant bill but that's another matter right so but he
didn't at least do that and your father didn't as far as i understand it he didn't.

[1:58:30] Yeah but to be fair my siblings case um they themselves broke off contact with
them and didn't reciprocate any attempts by him to contact them.

[1:58:41] Right, but he didn't tell you the truth about, or give you a deep understanding as to what happened.

[1:58:51] Is that right?

[1:58:54] Okay. Yeah, so that's bad, right? So your anger is not like...
I would try to avoid as a whole the...
I don't know, it's like the...
The imperial consciousness. The imperial consciousness is your consciousness
is the dictator and all of the other elements of your being are supposed to serve you.
Like you have this passport system. An emotion is only allowed to pass if it
can prove its utility to you.

[1:59:31] And your emotions or your passions or your instincts are kind of like slaves
that have to prove their value and then maybe you'll give them an audience.

[1:59:42] And the imperial consciousness stuff is where hyper-intellectualism and often,
I think, depression comes from.
Like, who the fuck are you to order anger around? Right? Do you know what I mean?
You're just some new addition to the whole consciousness thing,
right? Like, human consciousness has been around for, what, 100,000, 150,000 years?
Even shorter if you count it by some other measures.
So it's like, it's like, it's like the tiny rock on the top of the huge mountain
looking down at the mountain and saying, you must prove yourself to me.
You must serve me. It's like, dude, you're just a little rock on top of the giant mountain.
Have some humility, right? So when it comes to instincts and feelings and passions,
and you said, well, I don't know what the utility of getting angry would be.
Who cares? Who are you to tell anger what it should or shouldn't do?
Your anger is there to help and protect you.
And your anger is why you're here at all.
If the anger hadn't worked, if the fight or flight response hadn't worked,
we wouldn't be the alpha species that we are, right? We understand that from
an evolutionary standpoint.
So if the anger is the, I mean, if anger is an essential reason as to why we're
even alive, and the anger over billions of years delivered this higher consciousness,
how dare the higher consciousness order the anger around?
The anger is way older, way more foundational, and the whole reason we're here.

[2:01:10] So maybe listen to the anger i mean the anger doesn't control you right you
didn't you don't get possessed and suddenly go around you know breaking your
knuckles by punching holes in walls right it's not a possession thing because i've.

[2:01:24] Done that though.

[2:01:24] Well and and you've done that with this relationship to your anger that it's
got to prove its utility and it's there to serve you and you get to judge it
and whether it's right or wrong or good or bad right so if you if if you keep rejecting the anger,
it boils over into irrational frustration, right?
If you've ever been in a situation where you're trying to get someone to listen
to you and they just don't listen and they just keep rejecting you,
eventually you just get really frustrated and aggressive, right?

[2:01:51] But if you listen to your anger.

[2:01:52] It doesn't manifest as punching holes in the wall. It manifests as actual self-protection.
It manifests as actual energy. It manifests as actual ambition.

[2:02:04] You know, I'm angry at child abuse. I'm angry at the anti-rationality of the world.
I'm angry at the weakness and cowardice of most people who just fall in line
with authority and snarl and scowl and attack whoever the rulers point at. I'm angry at that.
I'm angry at that. And I'm not angry at that because I have irrationally high standards.
I'm angry at that because people always fucking told me when I was a kid,
and I would say, well, everyone else is doing it.
They'd say, well, if everyone else jumped off the CN Tower, would you jump off the CN Tower?
You have to think for yourself. You can't just go along with the crowd.
And then, you know, you may remember this a couple of years ago.
We had this whole test about whether you go along with the crowd,
and all the people who told me, you've got to think for yourself.
Hey, man, you're 10 years old. You're eight years old. You've got to think for
yourself. You can't just go along with the crowd, and all these people just
went Run along with the crowd.

[2:03:00] That's why I'm angry at the hypocrisy. I'm not angry at the fact that people go along with the crowd.
I'm angry at the fact that people go along with the crowd after lecturing me
and you and everyone else under the age of 18 on the planet to never go along
with the crowd and always think
for yourself and you can't blame other people for your own decisions.
And then when they face the test of their own moral instruction that they'd
inflicted on me when I was eight or six, they completely failed and they won't
even admit it it's the hypocrisy that bothers me the most right.

[2:03:34] So your mother and this is the hypocrisy with regards to your mother so your mother said to you.

[2:03:42] You should be able to handle excruciating groin pain for a year right,
you should just be able to rise above it you should be able to handle your pain
kid suck it up man it up something like that and then you bring up something
that's emotionally uncomfortable to your mother i.e.
Mom you were kind of a crappy mother in some ways and here's why and how did
she react did she handle that pain,
no she gaslit you she wouldn't accept responsibility she blamed you I assume
I mean tell me if I'm wrong.

[2:04:22] Not explicitly, she just gaslit it out of existence, just denying that it ever happened.

[2:04:28] Right. So did she, did she, after lecturing you to be able to man up and just
move on and handle and deal with excruciating pain,
when you brought up something uncomfortable for her, did she handle any of that
pain? Do you see the hypocrisy?
You should be able to handle an unknown. You didn't know if it was going to
be a year or the rest of your life.
You should be able to handle excruciating pain, but I can't handle questions about how I raised you.
That's the hypocrisy. Now, if that doesn't piss you off, I don't know what would.

[2:05:12] No, it does. And that's the reason I don't have contact anymore.
And also, when I tried to, you know, defend my claim to what's actually my property
at the part of the house um you know she claimed i was greedy with her own house so yeah i've seen.

[2:05:26] Oh yeah so you're greedy for wanting your property but she's not greedy for
having children with a guy who bought her a house yeah right so okay,
so you say well because now we're in the phase of the conversation which is
kind of predictable and i'm sorry but you know this is uh this is kind of how
it works so what happens is is,
I work for quite some time, quite hard,
to get you to understand something, and then you say, well, I know that.
Right? So, I say, your mother's kind of hypocritical in this way,
here's a blinding example, right?
And you say, well, yeah, but that's why I'm not in contact with her.
But there's two things. Number one, you didn't make that connection to me.
And number two, when you introduced your mother's bad behavior,
you introduced it with excuses.
Bad childhood, maybe kind of autistic, blah, blah, blah, right?

[2:06:25] Oh.

[2:06:27] So you can't say to me, well, that's why I'm not in contact with her.
When I point out these things, I mean, have you connected that before,
that she told you to suck up the pain, but she couldn't handle any kind of criticism?

[2:06:46] I haven't made that connection. I compared it more directly because that's also something she would do.
She had a C-section and other surgeries and claimed to have worn that without issue.
But I'm skeptical about that as well. My theory is more that...

[2:07:03] The only thing you know for sure is that you're supposed to handle blinding
groin pain but she can't handle criticism.

[2:07:12] Yeah.

Hypocrisy Unveiled

[2:07:13] So is she saying that blinding groin pain is fine and something you should be
mocked for not handling, but criticism is absolutely unbearable and should never be broached?
Also, you didn't ask for or want and were the victim of a botched medical procedure,
where she was being held to account for things that she voluntarily chose to
do. Totally different situation.

[2:07:43] Yeah, I've seen that contrast, yeah.

[2:07:51] So, yeah, I mean, I think you have stuff to be...
I think this hypocrisy, this manipulation, this absolutely terrible,
terrible moral decisions that your mother made to blame you,
to attack you, to have you grow up without a father.
See, I don't care how much the mother dislikes the father. I don't care.
I don't care. I don't care.
Children need a father.
Children need a father. You know, like if you all grew up in a small town,
maybe you did, I don't know, you grew up in a small town, and your mother just
didn't really like the dentist,
would it then be reasonable for you to grow up with rotting,
decaying, agonizing teeth and a life full of dental problems,
and then your mother says, yeah, but I didn't really care for the dentist,
so that's why you never went.
Would you accept that?

[2:08:53] No.

[2:08:55] No, he said, I don't care if you don't like the dentist. We got to see the dentist.
Well, I don't want to give that guy money. He's arrogant. It's like,
your children need a dentist and your children need a father.
And the fact that your mother, and I'm not making your father a victim in this
either because he chose to have five children with her.
But the fact that your mother made it so difficult for your father to see you
that he, and who knows what the truth is, right, he found it to be impossible,
the fact that she accused him of violence and abuse.
And I assume she did this publicly, right? I assume it wasn't just totally private.
She probably told family members or friends or other people, right?

[2:09:37] Yeah.

[2:09:38] Yeah. So that's vile. because it's one thing to say I was walking through the
mall and some guy sucker punched me out of nowhere,
it's another thing to complain about a man being violent and abusive when you
voluntarily chose to have five children with him,
that's a little bit less of a victim scenario right.

[2:10:00] Yeah,
I want to transfer this to a more recent situation if that's okay to talk about it,
Because it has some relation to her.
So that was also about a girl, and that was just very, very short,
not relationship, whatever.
But yeah, she was also quite like my mom, you know, making those degrading remarks.
And I literally just returned those to her, you know, give some verbal aggression back. back.
And she used that to spread rumors about me.
And we were kind of in a common circle of friends. And most people were on my side.
She's completely gone from the friend circle now. But one guy wasn't.
Yeah, that also led to a pretty big argument between us.
But I tried my best to defend myself adequately, tell him that it's not his
business. I'm sorry, what's the hymn here?

[2:11:11] Sorry, I got that you had verbal fights with your ex-girlfriend, but who's the man here?

[2:11:17] A common friend.

[2:11:19] Okay, so your ex-girlfriend, was this when you were dating? She went and she
said, oh, this guy's terrible, he's verbally abusive or whatever.
And then she went to your common friend, and then your common friend complained
to you about your behavior, so they said you're a bad guy?

[2:11:37] Yes, but what she reported or spread rumors about was more than what I actually did.
She was like that I was actually physically abusive or sexually abusive.

[2:11:50] Right.

[2:11:52] And so again, most friends, that didn't really have any consequences with them.
They knew me they didn't believe that but he sort of joined in and yeah so i
just told him it's none of his business none of it is true all i did was um
react in an adequate way with the same verbal aggression nothing illegal or
really abusive just defending myself and um.

[2:12:16] No but you weren't defending yourself no no no you weren't defending yourself
i mean i get that you were were defending yourself in the moment but to defend
yourself would be to not be in that situation to begin with that's truly defending yourself okay.

[2:12:31] But but how could i have avoided it.

[2:12:32] Okay now we have the red flags conversation you said this woman was i think
the excuse you gave her was she's mentally ill no.

[2:12:43] No just that she had some of those same traits as my mother that.

[2:12:46] No no you did say that she seemed to have mental illness i do remember that's
a different one no the different It's a different woman. Okay.

[2:12:51] It's a different one.

[2:12:52] Okay. So, I thought you said you only had one big relationship, or is this...

[2:12:58] Right. Yeah, this wasn't a relationship. This was more sort of loose dating, whatever.

[2:13:03] Okay. So, let's talk about these two women.
What were the red flags? How could you know ahead of time that they were unstable? stable.

[2:13:15] Now that you mentioned it, the one I last talked about with the rumors,
she confessed to me that she was suicidal at one point and from a really broken home,
And basically similar stuff with the actual girlfriend, serious relationship.
But I didn't take it seriously at Red Flags. At Red Flags, you know,
I took pity on it and then got abused.

[2:13:45] Right.

[2:13:46] Right.

[2:13:47] Because you're not holding them morally responsible. You're giving them the
excuse of dominoes, right?
Just as you gave your mother the excuse of dominoes, that she had a bad childhood
and she might be autistic or whatever, right?
So when you work to rescue the reputation of your mother in your own head then
you will white knight crazy women until the end of time or until you learn better right,
yeah now how long into the dating scenario or how long after you met these women
did they tell you about their problems,

[2:14:29] The one I was in an actual relationship with, it took quite a while.
Well, I met her years before, then we were in loose contact,
and after we were in more contact maybe half a year in, she started confessing more serious things.
And the other one was quite early, like within weeks of knowing each other and a few meetings.

[2:14:51] Okay, so the one woman, this was the longer relationship, right,
that you knew her for beforehand?

[2:14:57] No.

[2:14:58] All right. And are you saying that you knew this woman for years,
but there was no sign of any mental instability for years?

[2:15:11] Um, no, but, um, I wasn't close before.
I just, I met her, we were close for a while, then geographically apart,
and more in contact through text, and then later started getting to know each other.
So it's not like we had a long friendship before, and we just knew each other. So all this.

[2:15:33] Okay, but did you know anything about her life? Did you know anything?
I mean, was she successful? Had she had stable relationships?
Did she have stable friendships? Were there any physical markers of dysfunction,
like unusual physical appearance or tattoos?
Or was there any drug issues or alcohol issues? Are you saying that there was
no indication of any dysfunction in this woman before she told you,
after you knew her for years and you'd been dating for months?

[2:15:59] Actually, no, and I want to defend my case. Because she's from,
I think there might have been signs, but not the typical ones.
So she's from a quite rich, successful family, and also studied philosophy,
analytical philosophy.
And, you know, from a stable home, had, at the time when I met her,
had a longtime boyfriend.
So I would say if there were any signs at that point, they would have been hard to spot.

[2:16:25] All right. I'm totally happy. I mean, I fully accept what you're saying.
And how was her life going as a whole so she studied analytical philosophy which
to me is a red flag if she studied it in university that's honestly that's a
that's a whole because that's that's a lot about sophistry um and and how was
her life or career or uh stuff going that way.

[2:16:51] Uh well when i met her she was finishing her bachelor's and later starting her
master's And that was also one of the topics she confessed,
related to her confessional mental illness, that she had an extreme drive to
be very academically successful and constantly comparing herself to the greatest
philosophers and making herself dependent on that.

[2:17:19] And just out of curiosity, did you talk to her about what you had listened to
with regards to what I did?

[2:17:28] No i don't think so why.

[2:17:30] Oof just out of curiosity.

[2:17:32] Well it's you know quite a particular detail to remember she's.

[2:17:40] Really into philosophy and you're really into philosophy at least through what
i do here and this wasn't a point of connection.

[2:17:46] No no i see the point um but at that point and your show wasn't on my mind at that point.

[2:17:59] No, don't believe that. No, because even if you hadn't listened to me for years,
you still would have remembered that you were really into a philosopher, right?

[2:18:08] Yeah.

[2:18:15] So that's part of the red flag, that you didn't want to share what I did, right?
Now, you might say, oh, well, it's because you had such a bad reputation,
Steph, you're a real bad boy.
And she's like, well, that wouldn't, that wouldn't, anybody who studied the
history of philosophy knows that philosophers are regularly attacked.
So that wouldn't be something that would be off-putting, right?

[2:18:35] No.

[2:18:38] So why wouldn't you share what I talk about? And maybe you didn't need to share
it directly. It could be indirectly or whatever it is, right?
But you didn't seem to mention that you'd been into philosophy for some years
before you met this woman who's ferociously studying philosophy.
Sometimes it's the dark that doesn't bark that's the red flag, right?

[2:19:03] Yeah, but it's not like we didn't talk about philosophy at all.
I mean, we met both studying philosophy.
We didn't talk about it much. But, I mean, it was a topic that I might have
mentioned to you, but I honestly can't remember.

[2:19:15] That's fine. Now, which was the girl who was already dating a boyfriend when
you got together with her?

[2:19:22] That was her.

[2:19:24] Okay.

[2:19:25] But again.

[2:19:26] Okay. So, you know, maybe a red flag is she's cheating on you with her boyfriend?

[2:19:31] Yeah, but I didn't know that. I knew at the time when we met she had a boyfriend,
but that was years before, prior.
Prior and she hadn't mentioned any boyfriend or anything for at least again
i can't remember exactly maybe one year or a year and a half before and so she
pretty actively hid it because you know otherwise in your daily life daily conversations
you would mention a boyfriend.

[2:19:54] Okay so she she hid that she still had a boyfriend right.

[2:19:57] Yeah like i really didn't know and.

[2:20:00] Did you know any of her social circle did you ever hang out with her friends or anything thing.

[2:20:03] No because um we were geographically separated first and when we go and visit.

[2:20:11] Her she wants to introduce you to her friends right.

[2:20:13] Yeah but um the way the constellation was was we were most mostly when we met
um one-on-one like just us no.

[2:20:24] I understand that.

[2:20:25] I understand so so here's.

[2:20:27] Another red flag you don't meet her friends.

Red Flags Revealed

[2:20:31] I guess yeah you know why she.

[2:20:34] Didn't introduce you to her friends right.

[2:20:37] Yes but now that you mentioned one of her friends was a prostitute as I later found out.

[2:20:45] Alright,
okay so she's lying to you she's keeping you from her friends and did you ever meet her family.

[2:20:56] No No.

[2:20:58] And how long did you date her for?

[2:21:03] Must have been a year and a half or two.

[2:21:05] Okay. And you never met her friends and you never met her family?

[2:21:13] Um, well, some of her new friends, but again, um, she had moved to a new town at that point.
So I never visited her like home long-term friends and family.
I didn't see them, but like new friends in a new town where she had moved to.

[2:21:25] And what was the overlap between you dating her and her still being with her boyfriend?
How, like, was it six months or like how often, how long was she still with her boyfriend?

[2:21:38] I think about four months.

[2:21:41] And when did you find out about this overlap eventually.

[2:21:45] She admitted that i don't know why just in conversation just you know is that it.

[2:21:53] And when was that.

[2:21:59] About four months after we had started dating.

[2:22:01] Oh i'm sorry i so she she was still with her boyfriend for four months and then
when she left her boyfriend or broke up with her boyfriend she then told you
right away that she had been with her boyfriend while you were dating.

[2:22:17] Yeah well not quite actually that was um she first told me and um after i found out they split up,
first and then tell me she.

[2:22:31] Sure she broke up with him and then told you is that right Oh.

[2:22:34] No, the other way around.

[2:22:36] She told you she was still with her boyfriend.

[2:22:39] Yeah.

[2:22:40] Four months into dating, she tells you she's still with her boyfriend,
and then she breaks up with him.

[2:22:50] Yeah.

[2:22:52] Okay. And why did you keep dating her?

[2:22:56] Again, as I said, I was quite angry at that and wanted to split up.
But that was pretty much the second
worst phase of my pain, where I was struggling to keep any will to live.
And she was my closest person closest to me.
On her part, that's quite exploitative, but I don't know what I was supposed to do.

[2:23:23] Now, I assume she was not religious, is that right?

[2:23:27] Yeah.

[2:23:28] Sorry, she's not religious, right?

[2:23:30] Yes, correct, yeah.

[2:23:31] Okay, so where do her morals come from? She's not religious, right?
I mean, you'd listen to me enough to know that I've got this whole UPB thing,
I've got this whole secular examination or explanation of universal ethics and so on.
She wasn't obviously aware of that. and she wouldn't get morals from analytical
philosophy, in university in particular.
So where would her morals come from?
If she's not religious, and she's not getting it from philosophy?

[2:24:03] Probably hedonism.

[2:24:05] Well, no, that's not morality.

[2:24:07] Right, but what guides her actions, I suppose.

[2:24:12] No, not what guides her actions. actions morality is the
standard by which you judge your actions not what i mean what guides
your actions that's like hunger hunger guides my actions to get
some food that's not philosophy right that's not
morality morality is the standard that you compare proposed actions to to know
if they're good or not did she have a standard of morality that you know of
no right and was there Was there any evidence,
both in the years that you knew her beforehand, and again, I know that was off
and on, was there any evidence that she had moral standards before you started dating her?

[2:24:58] Yeah, well, I guess it's a low bar, but she wasn't flirting with me or anything
while she was still with her boyfriend, so she seemed to be faithful to him.

[2:25:07] Well, that could be hedonism that she prefers him to you. Anything else?

[2:25:17] Well, she placed a lot of value on productivity. I guess that's a very...

[2:25:21] No, that's efficiency. That's efficiency. That's not morality.
I mean, people who run concentration camps can be very efficient.
It doesn't mean they're moral.
I mean, some examples could be, did she have... Like, if you saw her in social
situations or if with you,
did she, or even just in public, did she stand up for things things that she
believed was right, even if it meant being disapproved of or being frowned upon.

[2:25:56] No, but there weren't really many opportunities. We were mostly hanging out
together, one-on-one in private or in nature.
So there weren't any great debates going on in public.

[2:26:08] No, but you must have disagreed with her about things. I mean, that's natural, right?

[2:26:13] Yeah.

Handling Disagreements

[2:26:15] And how did she handle disagreements with you?

[2:26:21] I think fairly well, actually. Like, calmly, being able to take criticism.
I think, actually, she was good at that.
And, like, having a constructive debate.

[2:26:35] Right. Now, did you ask her at all about her dating history over the course
of getting to know her close to dating?

[2:26:43] I didn't ask but we talked about it and from what she reported it didn't seem
strange you know like at that point we were both in the early 20s and you know she had had,
I think two consecutive boyfriends a few years apart so sorry you knew of.

[2:27:02] One of the boyfriends because she was dating him when you first met her right?

[2:27:06] Yeah.

[2:27:06] And did you ask her or did she say what happened to that relationship?

[2:27:13] Do you mean the ones you were stating when I met her or a previous one?

[2:27:17] No, the one when you met her. The one that she overlapped with you as it turned out.

[2:27:25] Hmm. Well, she didn't state her reasons for breaking up with him.

[2:27:30] Well, I guess she hadn't broken up with him, right?

[2:27:34] No, no, but when she eventually did, she didn't say any reason.

[2:27:37] No, no, sorry. When you were dating her and you asked about prior boyfriends,
she must have said something about the guy she was dating when you met her,
right? Oh, I've had these two relationships.
This one ended when I was 19. This one ended whatever, right?
And so on, right? Or I went out with this guy for a year, I went out with this
guy for two years, whatever, right?

[2:28:01] Yeah.
Honestly, I can't remember the details, but I think she would be smart enough
to only talk about that information when it's no longer, when it doesn't implicate
her, but I really can't remember when exactly we talked about what.

[2:28:15] Okay, so she was obviously a very good liar, right?

[2:28:19] Yeah.

[2:28:19] Is that right?
And did you have i mean she was suicidal at points is that i'm not sure when
the oh sorry sorry that was the other one okay and she is here so the girl sorry
the woman who was overlapping with the boyfriend right the the 18 month to two year girlfriend,
um did she have any other mental health issues other than i guess this pathological
soul-less lying stuff did she have any other mental health issues that you observe
over the course of your relationship.

[2:28:54] Well i know
she had been in therapy in the past but she
didn't say any concrete diagnosis then um but yeah she that stuff i talked about
with like uh comparing herself to the greatest philosophers and being depressed
because she can't reach that i don't know if i would diagnose that but you know
it's somewhat narcissistic and depressive tendencies and sees.

[2:29:21] Sorry, if she wants to be really good at something and she's depressed or she's
sad that she can't reach it, I'm not sure why that would be.
I mean, I'm not going to I'm the last guy to criticize anyone for ambitious
philosophical goals so I'm not sure how that's crazy.

[2:29:38] Yes, but again, as I said, I don't want to diagnose her but she was literally
like, she wanted to be like the greatest philosophers and it kind of seemed
like she was more interested in the status and the,
the status of that achievement.

[2:29:54] Okay, I mean, but that, you know, finding your limitations is very much part of youth, right?
We all, I mean, a lot of us have high ambitions and finding your limitations
is, I wanted to be a great actor, I wanted to, whatever, right?
And so finding your limitations in these areas is natural.
I don't know that it's, having high ambitions and then not being able to achieve
them is, was there anything else?

Weed and Ambitions

[2:30:19] No not really i mean she's small during phases she smoked a lot of weed but
so did i um but like not to the point where it interfered with our lives and obligations okay.

[2:30:31] So she didn't really exhibit any signs of of any any real problems right.

[2:30:36] Yeah okay.

[2:30:39] And then why did you break up?

[2:30:44] Didn't I tell you the stuff with the 40-year-old married man?

[2:30:50] Oh, yes, that's right. So she then got into this 40-year-old married man,
and she left you for him. Is that right?

[2:30:58] I don't know if they actually got together. She just told me that they were
seeing each other, but only in a dating sense.
And I broke up at that point, and I haven't had contact since.

[2:31:12] Right, okay.

[2:31:13] So I don't know. I don't know how that turned out.

[2:31:14] So there wasn't any particular bond that was very strong, right?

[2:31:19] Hmm.

[2:31:22] I guess not. If she's overlapping with a boyfriend and then she wanders off
to some other guy, there's not a particular bond with you. Is that right?

[2:31:32] I would have liked to think, but apparently not now.

[2:31:35] Right. Okay. Okay. And the other girl was suicidal and so on.
So there were no red flags that you could see, and I'm not going to invent them
if they weren't there, right?
But there were no red flags in particular that you could see because you couldn't
know, or at least you didn't know that she was lying, right?

[2:31:54] No. No.

[2:32:00] Okay. So yeah, I just wanted to double check that. But, you know,
I think for me, every relationship that I've been into, the girl is usually
quite eager to have me meet her friends.
Right? Because she wants to, you know, here's a good social situation.
And also, a woman who wants you to meet her friends is probably not cheating
on anyone, because then her friends will mention it, or it might be awkward or something.

[2:32:24] Oh.

[2:32:28] So you know dating a woman for two years and not meeting her friends or a family
um that's kind of a red flag right,
and and usually it's a good idea to try and meet a girl's friends earlier because
then also you can find out if her friend is i don't know a prostitute or something yeah but.

[2:32:46] To be fair um there was also some geographical problems involved like that was
It was literally the other end of the country.
We could have gone there, but there would have been a major trip.

[2:32:57] Oh, because she was in a new place?

[2:32:59] Yeah. So that place was closer, but her home was quite far away.

[2:33:03] Right. But you certainly could have.

[2:33:06] Yeah, I could have.

[2:33:08] It's possible. Yeah, and certainly it's good to meet people in social situations.
And also you learn a lot about someone by looking at their friends. All right.
Okay, is there anything else that you wanted to mention? I know we've been chatting
for a good old while, but yeah, I, you know, I mean, the things that I won't
reiterate because, you know, we can re-listen to this and all of that.
And so is there anything else that you wanted to mention just as we close up here?

[2:33:31] No, just that it's been really insightful and moving. And I'm happy to have talked to you.

[2:33:39] I'm very glad. that and i really do appreciate your time and you know
i i think that your approach to these very important
topics at such a you know relatively young age is is
most admirable and you know i i know that i sound like this creaky old wise
guy but you know you're further ahead much further ahead than i was at your
age and i think that's something to be entirely admired and i i really do respect
your dedication to to these matters
i think it'll serve you well and i do appreciate the call today all.

[2:34:07] Right then thank you and have a nice day.

[2:34:10] All right take care bye.

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