0:00 - Romantic Confusion
0:46 - Seeking Direction
3:31 - Relationship Ultimatum
4:42 - Meeting and Attraction
6:27 - Judgment and Attraction
7:46 - Relationship Dynamics
9:15 - Family Background
11:02 - Childhood Trauma
12:40 - Traumatic Memories
14:08 - Mother's Letter
14:51 - Mother's Desperation
18:06 - Mother's Manipulation
21:05 - Impact of Childhood
21:51 - Psychological Effects
22:57 - Loneliness Development
24:19 - Bullying Experience
25:39 - Parental Reaction
26:50 - Bullying Consequences
27:53 - High School Challenges
29:03 - Parental Support
30:12 - Anorexia Revelation
42:48 - Anorexia and Family Weight Dynamics
1:00:11 - Marriage, Children, and Parental Influence
1:11:52 - Emotional Connection and Childhood Trauma
1:32:51 - The Entitlement Trap
1:33:32 - Uncovering Childhood Wounds
1:44:42 - Inconsistent Virtues
1:48:57 - Control and Insults
1:54:20 - Power Play and Projection
1:57:31 - Admiration and Respect
2:09:47 - Reflecting on Threats
2:28:21 - Setting Standards
2:30:26 - Therapy and Healing
I delve into a deep conversation with a caller who is feeling stuck in their romantic life, particularly in a seven-year relationship marked by conflicting emotions and a long-distance ultimatum from their girlfriend. We explore the caller's childhood experiences, revealing a history of emotional manipulation and threats from their mother, which sheds light on the complexities of navigating past trauma in current dynamics. The impact of childhood experiences on adult relationships becomes a focal point of our discussion, as we unravel the origins of certain behaviors and their implications on the caller's current relationship.
The caller opens up about various aspects of their life, including struggles with anorexia, childhood bullying, and familial pressures related to physical appearance and food. We probe into the caller's upbringing, reflecting on the influence of family dynamics on their attitudes towards marriage, children, and relationships. Complex family relationships are brought to the forefront, as we delve into the challenging dynamics with both the caller's and their girlfriend's parents, unraveling a web of emotional struggles and unresolved issues that impact the caller's current relationship.
As we deepen our discussion, we explore the caller's lack of knowledge about their girlfriend's childhood experiences, particularly concerning potential abuse by her father. This leads us to analyze the implications of unresolved issues on their relationship and future family dynamics. The dynamics of entitlement, control, and manipulation within parent-child relationships are scrutinized, prompting reflections on the caller's girlfriend's emotional availability and the role of her parents in shaping her views on relationships and parenting.
The conversation progresses towards recognizing abusive behaviors in relationships and the concept of imaginary debts that parents create as a justification for abuse. We delve into the importance of self-ownership, unconditional love, and understanding past experiences to navigate current relationships successfully. The significance of setting standards, boundaries, and prioritizing well-being in relationships is underscored, leading to empowering insights on assertiveness, self-reflection, and open communication to build healthy and transparent foundations for present and future relationships.
[0:00] I would like to talk to you about my stuckness in my romantic life. My hope is that with your help and insight, we will make sense of my conflicting emotions and by extension, understand if I want to move forward with my relationship. It has been a challenging time with my girlfriend of seven years. She filled my reticence in marrying her. However, things are slowly inexorably coming to a head and I'm afraid whatever way forward I choose is going to turn out to be an abysmal decision. The worst decision I could make for my life going forward. I worry that whatever I do will be me heading straight off a cliff. I recall you saying you were engaged to the wrong woman, but realized and backed out of it just in time. And I wonder if I am putting myself in a similar situation. How would I know? Can you help me make sense of this relationship, as I have seen you do with many other callers in?
[0:47] Thank you for your interest and all that you do. Warm regards.
[0:50] That's great. Right. Yeah, listen, and I appreciate you calling me beforehand as opposed to I'm in a marriage with four children and, you know, it's miserable and, right, that's a tough one. So I appreciate the prevention rather than the cure. So, all right, do you want to tell me what's going on? What has got you between these two extremes of love and fear?
[1:13] Year yeah yeah i guess uh well as i wrote to you i'm in a relation been in a relationship for seven years now my current girlfriend i moved abroad to work about two years ago and we've been going long distance since my girlfriend's tried find trying to find a job locally where i'm currently currently located at, but she has not been successful in finding employment. Part of it certainly to do with the fact that she doesn't speak the local language, or at least not to a high enough level, let's say. And, um, yeah, this has been quite hard on her last year, especially, and, um, she's now essentially given, given, given me an ultimatum whereby, uh, very soon, I guess the end of the month, I either have to propose to her or, uh, or she said she'll find alternative arrangement.
[2:22] What, whatever that means. alternative arrangement i'm not sure i understand that in language yeah well um essentially she would uh she's currently so she's not living very far from here she's about four hour drive, uh obviously there's a board in between but uh yes she would essentially look for a new place where she's currently at look for a new job where she's currently at because she doesn't, uh very much appreciate her current position and her current living arrangement oh so she breaks up with you essentially yes not not explicitly i mean the the the men the threat is not uh as explicit but well it's the threat something else i mean it's the threat to i don't know she'll sue you for alimony or palimony or no i'm trying to sort of figure out what what this No, no, it's definitely we'd be moving in a direction where we break up, yeah.
[3:23] Sorry, moving in a direction where we break up. I'm trying to figure out maybe the language is vague as a whole, but I don't quite follow.
[3:32] Like she'll break up with you, like marry me or we break up, is that what she's saying?
[3:36] Yeah, I guess that's essentially the threat underneath that she doesn't put it as explicit. She says, marry me, either you propose marriage or I'm going to start living my life over here and then we'll see what happens, happens.
[3:49] Okay. I mean, you say threat, you sort of use the language of threat. Is it a threat? Yeah.
[3:59] It's a good point i mean if you say to your boss um i need a raise or i'm going to start looking for other work is that a threat or is that consequences no that's consequences definitely i mean i don't think it's a threat a threat is you know or i'll cut you or something like that um so i think it's just consequences like and it's not unreasonable is it i mean it's been seven years years. Yes, I know. I'm unaware of it.
[4:29] Yeah, I know. Sorry, you told me. What age range are you guys in? Like late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s?
[4:36] Just on the late 20s, early 30s edge.
[4:40] Okay.
[4:41] Borderline, let's put it. Yeah.
[4:42] Okay, that's fine. So tell me a little bit about how you met and why you got together and what's been going on. I know it's a lot to jam into a conversation.
[4:52] But yeah do do what you can so we met online and 2017 um she was my first girlfriend, and i guess i was her first proper boyfriend as well we met online we just started chatting went to the movies had a chat afterwards and then went out for drinks once twice, uh just on a regular date and then we we sort of ended up together really, i'm sorry what does that mean perhaps you end like gravity well yeah i don't know did you accidentally glue each other well what do you mean you've sort of ended up together i mean you were attracted to her were you attracted to her i was yes yes i was okay i still am actually Okay.
[5:44] So what do you mean you ended up? I mean, it was a choice, wasn't it?
[5:49] It was a choice, yeah.
[5:51] Listen, if it wasn't a choice, I don't want to tell you that it was, but I'm not sure I understand how you would choose to date someone but kind of end up together.
[6:03] No, it was a choice.
[6:06] Okay, and what was it about her that attracted you to the point where you've committed for seven years?
[6:18] I don't know. I find myself asking that question. I have difficulties answering. On the one hand, she was available, which sounds very bad.
[6:28] No, no, listen. I mean, I'm not going to judge any of this stuff. I'm just, I'm a rabbit curiosity hole. That's my sort of, my life as a whole. So, you know, we can forsake the judgment stuff and say, okay, so she was available and I assume that for you she was attractive?
[6:46] Yes, correct.
[6:47] And how would you rate her looks and your looks on the sort of the old one to ten scale?
[6:53] I'll probably say she's a solid six and a half to seven. i struggle judging myself i'd probably say an eight but, okay got it and was there something in particular that you found more attractive about her now that could be physical you know some guys are leg guys some guys are boob guys some guys are i don't know whatever hair guys uh was there some particular physical attribute that she had that you found found more attractive that may have influenced your judgment? Not really. Maybe freckles, I'd say, but not really.
[7:33] Okay, yes, I guess some guys are freckles. All right. And who was it, was there someone who was more interested of the two of you, was there either of you that was more interested in pursuing the relationship than the other?
[7:47] No, I would say it was fairly balanced. Okay.
[7:51] And... Tell me about the kind of conversations you had and a good sense of humor, wit, intelligence, well-read historical knowledge. Like, was there any sort of if she was just a dude or a woman who was unavailable for whatever reason, a nun or married? Was there aspects of her that were attractive outside of sexual interest or what were those?
[8:20] I think she's witty for sure. much wittier than most most women most girls at the time, um she was our artsy conversation was um much about ideas which i'd never really had with women before it was mostly boring chit chat um, Yeah, that sort of thing.
[8:47] And would you classify her as a good person? Like, not obviously perfect, but, you know, moral and morally courageous and honest and so on?
[8:59] Courageous, not so much, but she's definitely not an NPC. Okay. Which is, yeah.
[9:08] Okay. Okay, and she was your first girlfriend, and I guess you met in your early 20s or mid-20s.
[9:16] Yeah, correct, yeah.
[9:18] If you're an eight.
[9:19] Why had you not dated for the previous— I was too stuck up.
[9:26] Too stuck up, okay. Tell me more about that. That's a very certain statement.
[9:31] No, I'd come very close with a couple of girls. I knew they were definitely into me. we dated, went out, went to movies they came over maybe I even went over to theirs but I just couldn't make the the leap, let's say the step I just couldn't get intimate, I just freeze into place even like on the couch or something watching a movie, Sorry, how has that stuck up meant they weren't good enough for you you were too vain or, Do you mean stuck or stuck up? It might be uh stefan that's a bit too subtle for me a difference i don't know english is not my first language no listen i appreciate it and i i always have i thought it meant you got paralyzed like you you couldn't correct yeah okay sorry yeah stuck up means really snobby and and superior and so on but so you would you would become paralyzed in the face of potential romantic stuff right that's correct okay got it yeah that's very well with it.
[10:35] And what was your parents' marriage like.
[10:39] If they had one? They're still together. And I don't envy them their marriage at all, let's put it that way. Why? Well, I don't think they have a functioning relationship going on. My mom's a screamer and a nag.
[11:02] and dad was never around actually at least for me well those two things often go hand in hand right I mean if the woman's really unpleasant then the man is like hey I've got work to do I've got other things going on right okay, correct yeah was she always a screamer did that, did that change over time I guess as you well will know Stefan memory has got a bit It does tend to get a bit blurry in the past, but as far back as I can remember, yes. Maybe initially she didn't scream as much at him. She screamed more at me. But yes, as far as I can tell, I would say she's always been a screamer.
[11:46] And was the screaming generally just tension, or was she screaming also insults and aggression at you?
[11:57] You no insults for sure it was all the moral lecturing and i was a bad kid and, was making them unhappy and uh oh so she wasn't just hysterical she was also like abusive right, yeah definitely yeah i'm so sorry and what would she what would she say to you as a little kid, honestly i don't recall much as a little kid i remember when i was Well.
[12:24] You can't remember.
[12:25] Probably seven.
[12:25] Yeah.
[12:26] Yeah, when I was seven, actually, I found it on the computer recently because they were smart enough to keep it. She used to come pick me up at school, after school, in elementary school.
[12:40] And at the time, I wanted to stick around and play with other kids. And one day, she just lost it. She essentially just left until I ran after her, after she threatened to do so. and then back at home she wrote me like a two-page letter slash contract laying out how I was to behave, how I was to comport myself, how I was to obey essentially her orders, under threat that if I...
[13:05] She wrote you a, A bully contract when you were seven?
[13:12] Yes.
[13:13] And sorry, so you said you had to obey her, this, that, and the other, under pain of what? What were the consequences?
[13:21] Well, it gets a bit blurry, but in the contract, he said they would send me off to boarding school abroad.
[13:27] Oh, gosh.
[13:30] And verbally as well, they used to tell me that if I kept making them unhappy, they would end up divorcing because of me. oh my gosh no oh how monstrous oh god I'm so sorry my gosh that's just about as, soul crushing and immoral as can be imagined I'm so sorry god what a, ah that's terrible do you have siblings, um no I'm an only child oh gosh so they really you got all of their crazy laser focus right Indeed, yes.
[14:08] And you found the letter that your mother had sent you recently?
[14:13] Yeah, I recalled, I remembered that, as I said, she'd written that letter and I found it, the word Falstaff on their computer.
[14:23] Oh, you don't have a copy of it, right?
[14:26] Well, I do now.
[14:27] Can you read it?
[14:30] If you want, I mean, it might be helpful. It's a foreign language.
[14:34] Oh, it is? Okay.
[14:35] It is in a foreign language, but I can try and see if I can translate off the cuff.
[14:39] If you could, I'm quite curious.
[14:50] Bear with me a second.
[14:51] Oh yeah, no, I'm asking you outside the convo, so take your time.
[15:03] So dear my first name since we can't really talk to you because you always interrupt and you always find excuses and i can't help it to scream i thought i'd write your letter so you can read at your own pace. What I want you to know every time, and that you want to read it, even when I will not be there. I can't accept to be treated in this way. And you know what I mean? I'm the only or one of the only mothers who takes as much care of her son and who has put him before everything else. And yet there's not one time where I don't have to wait for you.
[15:53] While you ignore me and continue playing with your kids. as if nothing were happening i don't want to be humiliated to this point, when all the other moms and all the other women um are there watching me and nothing's happening, so for since you're a big kid and you want to be autonomous and you want to keep on doing whatever you whatever it is you do uh please continue i won't i won't keep come and pick you up we had agreed yesterday night on some rules but just a few hours after the afterwards you you pretend like you pretend that you've forgotten all about it uh hence i've forgotten that i'm your mom too bad i kid myself that i have a a nice kid like many other women mothers a kid who adores his mom and for whom his mom is the person that counts most in the world.
[17:06] When you're not there in the morning i program home come pick you up i envision you, jump jump up and to embrace me i tell you how i spend my morning and then you do your homework, and then all happy and dandy i take you somewhere where you've got your uh your afternoon activities or we do something together today for instance I thought we could have gone downtown but instead I see we have to argue like like every other day or like like like any day it's too bad that I gave up all those jobs in your favor who who you don't seem to appreciate.
[17:57] Since this is really not working, I give you the last chance for the next three weeks to make up for everything.
[18:06] Otherwise, you know you're going to end up in boarding school. I'm sorry that the situation is so bad at the moment. My heart is in pieces and my eyes are all tears because after all, in spite of everything, I still love you so much. signed your mom and then on the on the back is a couple of bullshit rules as to what my afternoon uh, um activities where to be and homework and how to sit properly at that at meals, and how to dress up and and clean get cleaned up.
[18:49] And what's that like for you reading this back more than a quarter century later, well i don't know what to think of this it's on the one hand i know it's It's not all in my head because I have a paper copy or a hard copy at least. It's terrible. I'd never treat a child of mine this way.
[19:14] I agree with you that it's terrible, but what is it that strikes you in particular?
[19:21] Everything. The fact that she thought about writing me this kind of a letter at age seven.
[19:31] Um all the bullshit rules all the, all the lies and this like rancid level of manipulation yeah yeah right and and also you know you make me scream at you yeah you know all of that yeah all of this uh it's it's oh and i guess i've just if you forget that i'm there i guess i'll forget that i'm your mother right so the threats of abandonment and and all of this right now um why do you think your mother was this way and i'm not trying to excuse her but i mean what do you think the bad thinking was that produced these kinds of monstrous outcomes i think she's a narcissist but that still doesn't give a proper why i don't know she's just literally all right okay so why do people i mean it's a big question right and i think it's important to to puzzle this out why do people manipulate and threaten and bully children i mean we can say well but they have power and and they can get away with it it's like well yeah but so i mean i i have that power i could get away with it but I don't do that.
[20:53] So it's not in the nature of parenting. Why does your mother scream and manipulate and bully and threaten, right?
[21:05] Because she could get away with it, I guess.
[21:07] Well, all parents can, so that doesn't limit to her.
[21:12] So why would she? Can you repeat the question? Sorry, I think I didn't.
[21:16] Yeah, so why would your mother, I mean, I assume she does this to your father too, like this sort of manipulation, bully, and threat?
[21:24] Yes, not probably as explicit.
[21:29] Right, yeah, I guess. But why does she do that?
[21:38] What is the thinking?
[21:39] Now, she's responsible for it. When I say, why does she do that? I don't mean like she's possessed by a demon or it's determinism. But why would she take this approach? Why would she do this?
[21:51] I guess because it's always worked in her favor.
[21:55] Okay, it's worked.
[21:57] I'm not sure if it's the same answer I gave you earlier.
[21:59] Okay, let me ask you this. Does she do this kind of stuff out of desperation?
[22:08] Or sadism because when we're cruel to people when we're vicious when we threaten and bully and so on this generally it's either because we just like doing it like it gives us a weird kind of sick pleasure to bully people or we're desperate for something and we don't have any clue how to do it how to get what we want any other way well given this choice i would say she's desperate I get that sense too.
[22:35] And that doesn't mean that it's not crushingly wrong to do this. I just, I don't get a sense of sadism. I get a sense of desperation.
[22:44] No, I would say more desperation. Because even seeing she screams at her own mother as well.
[22:50] Right.
[22:50] And then comes back around and sobs and asks for forgiveness and then repeats it the next day.
[22:58] Right. Right. Sorry, don't make me laugh because it's not funny. Now, what is she desperate about? Where is this desperation, or what is this desperation coming from, do you think?
[23:12] I don't know, that she's wasted her life, I guess.
[23:14] And why do you think she's wasted her life?
[23:20] I don't know she's one of the things that's sort of in place in the letter i read to you but the career stuff like the all the jobs i gave up for you and you're not even grateful right right okay exactly so um this also ties in a bit to my life story now because obviously i told you i moved abroad my parents moved abroad uh before i was born before they actually got married um My father moved for work. And then similar situation, my mom, well, they got married. And then my mom struggled finding a job in the new country they moved to.
[23:56] Oh, like your girlfriend.
[24:00] Yeah, situation's a bit different in that case because she did speak the language, but there was potentially a bit of prejudice. That's what they told me. No, people didn't want to hire her because they sensed that she was morally corrupt and vicious.
[24:20] I never thought about it this way, actually.
[24:22] I mean, I've been a hiring manager, as you probably know. I've interviewed like a thousand people. I've hired like a hundred people. And the pettiness, immaturity, and instability, it's basically your major job to try and root those out.
[24:40] Right and and not hire and because if you can imagine this is how she's dealing with a seven year old imagine the chaos and destruction of productivity and politics and manipulation and and lawsuits that your mother might bring to the workforce that's a fair point i mean you you couldn't no responsible manager could ever hire someone like your mother it would just be yeah It would be crazy.
[25:05] You would lose years of your life. The stress, it's terrible. I mean, when I would occasionally get hired into new companies, my first order of business was to scan my new employees and get the crazies out.
[25:22] Right.
[25:23] So, no, it's not. Unless it's prejudice against emotional terrorists, which I suppose is a kind of prejudice, but I think it's a good one. It wasn't any kind of bigotry. I assume that would keep her out of the workforce.
[25:35] Yeah, that's just the narrative she's been doing recently always.
[25:40] So the narrative was either that they didn't want to hire a foreigner or else the jobs she was able to get to the, like she would qualify for, they'd tell her she was overqualified. For what it's worth.
[25:56] She's not learned any lessons about taking responsibility in her life. It's always other people's fault.
[26:02] That's a good way of saying it. She never really worked. She told me that she was erratic.
[26:14] Sorry, go ahead.
[26:16] She didn't do that either, as you said. I was in daycare. kindergarten and then uh school kept me busy rest of the time growing up so so she was staying home with one kid in daycare and then school yeah so is your mom kind of lazy, i guess yeah no no don't guess i i don't know i mean i already have kinda in there and if you say I guess.
[26:47] Then we have two fogs which don't make a hole.
[26:51] So, it seems to me, if you have only one child, and you put your kid in daycare, pretty lazy, isn't it?
[26:57] She even had a cleaning lady as well.
[26:59] Oh, no. I'm sorry. Oh, no.
[27:03] She would do the groceries.
[27:05] Oh, my gosh. She would do the groceries?
[27:09] Yeah, yeah, she would go get the groceries.
[27:10] That's so she could yell at the shop owners, I'm sure. Okay.
[27:15] Now she's as you're probably familiar from your mom she can be very very kind to strangers Oh absolutely yeah because she's about the status right so Does she come from a high status family? Not really no in general I would say no my grandfather was a policeman She did talk about in the letter her potential and so on was she well educated or, Yeah, she went to uni first, it was the first generation to go to uni.
[27:49] I'm sure you knew what she took there.
[27:53] There was something related to languages. I'm not exactly sure what the exact title would be, but she holds a doctorate. She has a doctorate?
[28:07] That's her PhD.
[28:09] Yes.
[28:10] It's fantastic that society poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into educating your mother so that she could drop you at daycare and go buy some fucking cabbages. Ugh. Ugh. I think of the opportunity costs of all of that kind of education, you know, society could have got a doctor or something out of it, right? But instead, okay. So, your father was traveling for work a lot, is that right?
[28:43] Yes, that's correct, yeah. Okay.
[28:46] I apologize for the swearing, if that was upsetting to you, I'm sorry for the swearing, I'll hold on.
[28:51] No, I didn't even register it, Stefan. Personally, I swear quite a bit, and I want to work on that.
[28:57] Okay. I may not help you in this call, but maybe afterwards you can say don't swear. Okay.
[29:03] In my native language, swearing is sort of like water to a fish.
[29:09] It's like punctuation, right? Yeah. Okay.
[29:11] Yeah. Yeah.
[29:14] So when you were disciplined, I guess you got these bizarre letters, this half-legalese abandonment threat letters. Did you get spanked or hit, or how else were you punished? So go ahead.
[29:32] I'm not exactly so spanked for sure. Hitting, is that with a closed fist, a closed hand?
[29:39] Spanking is generally open hand. end, usually on the buttocks or lower back, hitting is closed fist or they could be hitting with implements, like with a belt or a stick or a rolling pin or something like that.
[29:50] Yeah, I was always threatened with a belt and told to be grateful that I didn't get hit with a belt because that's what apparently my father got, but definitely spanked, potentially on the face as well.
[30:04] Also slapped. And how often would this happen?
[30:12] It's very hard to tell in retrospect, but up to probably around the time I got to school.
[30:18] And how often? Once a week, once a month?
[30:23] Call it once every other week. Once every other week. Maybe once a week. somewhere in that boat park okay so maybe 30 or 40 times a year and uh it it started i assume when you were very young and it ended around puberty is that right no it ended around uh when i went and started going to school ah okay okay so i remember actually the thought yeah there's a memory that um came back to me recently was um potentially even then telling me that But I made them, like if I kept on making them hit me, people would start asking questions because they would start seeing it at school.
[31:04] Oh, so the hitting was bad enough that it would leave like bruises and marks?
[31:10] I guess, yeah. I'll be honest, I don't recall that. I don't recall the...
[31:15] No, but if they were concerned about you being... If they were concerned about you being seen in school or the injuries being seen in school, then it must have been pretty hard.
[31:27] Yeah.
[31:29] Okay. And they literally said, or something to the effect of, if you keep making us hit you.
[31:38] Yeah, that's the memory that resurfaced recently. I know memories can lie, but. it well i mean i i would not assume in this case because it it memories we can doubt our memories when they don't act in accordance or we don't remember things that are in accordance with every other thing yeah but this all fits the pattern right i mean if you grew up in the desert and you have a memory of a desert it's probably a real memory if you grew up in i don't know england and you have memory of a desert then it probably was just the food just kidding all right so So.
[32:15] And the hitting was replaced with, I guess, was abandoned, and then there was yelling, because they were afraid of being found out to be child abusers. And that must mean that the hitting was pretty substantial. Okay. And then when you were in school, how was your social life as a whole?
[32:40] Um wild i would say wild especially um elementary school i skipped second grade so i went from first to third and i had a bit of trouble initially making friends when in third grade but then all of a sudden essentially it was entire the entire grade was friends so that was pretty good and then secondary school mmm bit of a similar thing initially a bit tough then I sort of made some friends but not never again as many friends as I had in elementary school right and then high school is a a whole different story, but in general, I would say I'm quite a loner.
[33:32] I assume that you... I'm sorry, go ahead.
[33:38] No, I was saying it sounded a bit deterministic if I said I turned out to be quite a loner.
[33:44] No, I mean, it's deterministic if you don't know the patterns, right? If you can't figure out the causality. So, like, I mean, if you don't know that smoking makes you sick, then you don't really have much of a choice to stop getting sick, right, to avoid that. When you were younger, is it fair to say that you weren't super comfortable having friends over to your house because of your parents? Or were they able to be civil or nice to kids you had over?
[34:19] I guess initially. So when I was smaller, I would have friends over more often. but I don't think it was so much like a conscious choice to stop inviting friends over and going to other people's places afterwards probably worded this very poorly well so you don't remember a time where you had friends over and you your mother would yell or be embarrassing so she was able to definitely no no no everybody used to love her like I wish I had your mom okay so she was a a good chameleon right okay yeah yeah when you got older you said high school was another matter can you tell me what you mean um uh yeah i guess uh i sort of fell in with the with the nerdy crowd.
[35:14] What was that was a year younger than as i'd skipped uh as i told you second grade so i was a year younger than most and then i went on and skipped another grade further further down the line um so i was always a bit the odd kid out even especially well initially especially also when i was just one year younger uh when puberty started kicking in i would uh i was bullied quite a bit thrown into the bin like a garbage bag and not a garbage bag a garbage can in in like the schoolyard and was that mostly because you were younger or was there some other reason do you think i'm not blaming you obviously for being bullied i'm just curious no i don't know i guess it was just an easy pick that was i don't know i was smart probably the smartest boy in the class and i think people were also envious of that right well i guess yeah because yeah so you know the funny thing is well it's not funny but the inspiration was a textbook we had, for english had that uh i don't know there was a scene somewhere in there's like this guy called ben and they used to play ben in the bin and then they did it with, with myself and some other kids as well like the bigger ones picked on the.
[36:36] And did you tell your parents? Did they do anything to help?
[36:41] I don't think I told them that time.
[36:44] No, but I assume the bullying was more than once.
[36:47] Yeah, the bullying was more than once. There's another episode they picked my beanie, you know, the cap I put on. And trying to make you run after them, they kept throwing it amongst them until you run out of steam. and then they dropped it into a puddle on the ground so it got all dirty.
[37:09] Right.
[37:09] So I could not tell him that case. And then my mum wrote better.
[37:13] Sorry, why couldn't you tell your parents?
[37:17] No, I couldn't not tell my parents. Oh, you couldn't not?
[37:20] Oh, because it's dirty. Sorry about that. Okay, my mistake.
[37:23] Yeah, yeah.
[37:23] And so your parents, they found out you were being bullied?
[37:30] Yes, yeah. Yeah, they must have found out. I mean, mom wrote a letter to the, uh, to a teacher.
[37:37] She's a big one for that in class.
[37:38] Which only made, which only made the situation probably worse.
[37:43] Uh, so your mother wrote a letter.
[37:46] Yeah.
[37:47] That's about it.
[37:47] Like complaining. Yeah.
[37:49] Yeah. I know. Yeah.
[37:51] Yeah.
[37:54] And your father, I mean, it would be your father's job, I assume, to deal with the bullying. That's a bit of a, a bro thing, right?
[38:00] Yeah, he always chickened out because he didn't really speak the language. He was working in a different language. So he sort of never interacted with his host country.
[38:09] Okay. Oh, so you were in the West at this point. Is that right?
[38:13] That's correct, yeah.
[38:14] Okay. And sorry, just remind me how old you were when you came over?
[38:20] I was just born. Oh, newborn.
[38:23] Okay.
[38:23] In my home country. I grew up in my host country at the time.
[38:29] Okay. Got it. Now, I guess you were two years younger in high school, is that right?
[38:38] Yeah, yeah.
[38:39] And so I assume that...
[38:40] And then I lost another year, though. I lost a year back. Oh, what happened? Because I got hospitalized for anorexia.
[38:48] Anorexia?
[38:50] Yes, sir.
[38:51] All right. I suppose we should talk about that a little bit. That's a bit of a new variable. So what happened there?
[39:03] I guess, to put it bluntly, I came back from a student exchange and stopped eating.
[39:09] Well, you basically just gave me the definition of anorexia, but that doesn't give me any understanding as to why.
[39:16] Yeah. I think sexuality, difficulty with sexuality. And that was the way to, on the one hand, stave it off, and on the other hand, try to starve your way to perfection. I'm not sure if it makes sense.
[39:38] How old were you when you came back from the, you said it was a student exchange program?
[39:43] I was two weeks. I was 15.
[39:48] You were 15. And so the exchange program was two weeks?
[39:52] Yeah, it was just, it's like with a host family. I'm not sure if you've got it in Canada.
[39:58] All right.
[39:59] You just go abroad for two weeks and then the, to a host family and then their child comes to yours for two weeks.
[40:06] All right. Right. And was there anything that happened when you were away that may have triggered the eating disorder?
[40:15] I was just hungry all the time. We were always eating. And I remember the people in the host country saying, oh, these guys here, they're always eating, they're always hungry. Oh, you're a teenage boy, I mean. Yeah. I remember that distinctly, though. That's for what it's worth. And then, I don't know, it was a cute girl. And I was too shy to approach her as well. And then some, pardon my French, dickhead jock, I would not say approached her. And so they sort of ended up together, at least for the exchange.
[41:05] Oh, so the cute girl was overseas?
[41:09] Correct, yeah. I'm sorry. There was nothing really to go.
[41:12] I mean, there was nothing really to do there, right? I mean, you're heading back, so.
[41:17] Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.
[41:19] Now, did you get the perception from the host family in the exchange that you were eating too much, that that was bad?
[41:26] No. So, tell me, I understand.
[41:28] Why did you stop eating when you came back?
[41:34] I don't know. I thought I had to be better. I had been rejected because I wasn't good enough. And I thought my good enough problem lay physically.
[41:43] Were you overweight?
[41:44] Mentally, couldn't be. No, I've never had a weight issue in that sense.
[41:51] Was this the first girl that you recall being very attracted to?
[41:57] No. No, there had been one or two prior to that.
[42:01] Sure, help me understand. So this girl goes with the jock, right?
[42:05] Yeah and is it do you think that had something to do with why you stopped eating.
[42:14] Probably not especially then why you'd come back from this two weeks and not eat yes um i used to have a, I would normally pick my fingers, the skin and my, elbows and whenever mom would catch me when I was probably 12 or so she would, it was like probably a daily thing she would tell me hey if you keep doing that no girl's going to want you, no girl's going to want to be with you, nobody's going to want you.
[42:49] And I think that dug its way into me that I somehow had to be perfect physically to be attractive attractive to be considered attractive or uh be uh be considered for a mate, so okay so but where did you where did you get the idea that skinny was attractive is your mom skinny or is is there some is your dad skinny like because you could easily have said um well a jock got the pretty girl so i've got to go to the gym and start working out and drink a lot of protein shakes and whatever you do so why why would you consider that would have been the second stage that would have been the second stage first to get really lean and then to bulk up, okay but anorexia isn't just about getting really lean right isn't it sort of endangering your health yeah definitely so why why skinny.
[43:47] To obliterate the body I don't know to obliterate the body?
[43:52] I mean that's kind of abstract, what's your family's relationship to weight and food and diet and so on?
[44:05] So weight I would say actually okay like there's nobody who's really overweight, or overweight really really. Food, let's just put it that way. All the women in my extended family, they keep trying to stuff your mouth with something. It's unbelievable. My mother, my grandmother, my other grandmother, aunts, granddaughters, I don't know what it's called, sisters of of my grandparents, they were all, eat this, eat that, you want this, you want that. It's incessant still to this day. At least those are still alive.
[44:50] But they themselves are not overweight, is that right?
[44:56] Well, yeah, they're not overweight, no, I wouldn't say. Maybe marginally, but not like...
[45:01] Yeah, like, I mean, maybe just a little bit of middle-aged spread or whatever, right? So do you know why women try to stuff men?
[45:11] Well i've listened to your show long enough uh no it's because they've no other nourishment to provide um yeah that may be part of it but one of the reasons they will try and stuff their men is to make the men less attractive so that they'll put up with women who aren't very nice, Okay So I don't know why Because anorexia tends to be A female response Yeah, I'm aware, yeah So If your mother Sorry, go ahead No, it makes the stigma even harder Right, right No, I'm not saying there's anything I'm just saying that in general So I would assume that it would have something to do with the female and if your mother is constantly trying to stuff your face with food then refusing food is refusing your mother right yeah, now how long did the anorexia go on for.
[46:20] Acute couple of months and yeah it was a latent couple of years and how did your parents respond, to you not eating i assume you lost a lot of weight i did yes um well i got hospitalized, twice first time was just yeah but it was never it never got that bad that it had to be hospitalized It was just probably easier to manage, but it was never critical, not yet critical. But I would say mom made a big fuss about it, and dad rejected me over it. He said I should pull myself together. I once walked um we're walking across the hospital yard once and it was the epileptics ward across, the yard I guess anyone so it was just me and him and he told me well look at those guys they've got real problems and then I don't remember I don't think I've said anything back to him at that time but what's your father's relationship to does he does he get angry in the same way your mother does No, he blows up occasionally. He just bottles it down.
[47:43] And then occasionally just...
[47:47] Say again?
[47:48] Well, and leaves, right? I mean, he travels, right?
[47:51] He works around. Not anymore.
[47:53] Well, it's funny too, because if... You know, pull yourself together. Did he ever say that to your mom when she was getting all kinds of hysterical and abusive?
[48:03] No.
[48:04] Right.
[48:04] I think what he would say to her is to be rational. That's the only thing.
[48:09] Oh, he would call her irrational. But he wouldn't say, pull yourself together. There are people out there with real problems. Stop being ridiculous.
[48:18] No, he wouldn't say that. So he would say that to you.
[48:21] But he married this woman, right?
[48:26] Yeah.
[48:27] Okay. And, you know, you face the fundamental both challenge and opportunity of all of us who don't want our parents' lives. Right? I mean, you don't want your father's life, right? You wouldn't want to get married to someone like your mom.
[48:41] Mom so i mean that's it's a very interesting and creative space to be because you don't want what your parents have so you can't sort of slip into their train tracks but it's tough to it's tough to jump the tracks it's tough to not end up in that situation so there's a great opportunity but also a great a great challenge so okay so the the dieting the anorexia it didn't have anything thing to do in particular with being attractive because it didn't work right the girls weren't like oh wow i can see his ribs and he's in hospital what a hottie right fair yeah.
[49:25] And you didn't experience any inappropriate sexual contact or molestation or that kind of abuse when you were a kid, is that right?
[49:35] Not as far as I know. The only thing I've, so none from adults, the only thing that was a bit strange is I was probably seven or eight, another kid my age, we sort of had sex play in my room. We would get naked, stripped down, and then have mock sex, I guess.
[50:01] And this was another boy?
[50:04] This was another boy, yes. And then there was the same feel, let's put it that way, with another boy, same age as again, probably also around the same time in my life, but where we have a holiday home. So I would only see this other kid once a year, twice a year, maybe.
[50:33] And was it that the other kids initiated this sexual reenactment?
[50:40] Yeah, with the local boy. So yes, both kids initiated, certainly the first time. I think with the local boy, it only happened twice, I think. and I was a bit disgusted with him and then with the other kid I think it went on for longer but it was as I said only I only saw him twice a year I'd say but it must have gone for two years or three years and initially there again it was initiated by by the other kid but a couple of times into it I was sort of looking forward to seeing him again and playing lovers, and when it first began you said you were kind of disgusted by the first kid or the local kid, um yeah did it cross your mind to say i don't want to play or let's go get a soda or or something like that no no i don't think it crossed my mind i was just disgusted but didn't want chicken out, in college well i mean you weren't allowed to say no with regards to your parents right you You weren't even allowed to want to play with other kids after school without your parents threatening to send you to boarding school, right? Yes, that's correct.
[52:00] I mean, can you remember a time when your parents accepted a perspective or opinion of yours that went against what they wanted to do?
[52:12] No. What? No.
[52:16] Okay. I mean, so you were starved of affection and acceptance and love, and maybe you went on a hunger strike about that.
[52:30] Because if you don't allow your kids to say no they're they're unsafe in the world sorry go ahead, no i just was musing about you use the word obviously starve i starved my i was starved for love and affection and i starved myself for food afterwards right, right now sorry you were gonna say no i wasn't uh was waiting for your input, so what happened it was a couple of months of i guess the extreme anorexia and then just under eating for a couple more years is that right yeah i would that's a good way to phrase it yeah under eating and sporadically overeating and sort of under eating again sort of managing in that quote-unquote managing it that way oh like a sort of binge was it a binge purge thing or just overeating and then under eating no i never purged okay i was just in your teeth thank you Right. Now, what about in your sort of mid to later teens.
[53:32] What happened with regards to girls or attraction or dating or anything like that?
[53:40] No, I wouldn't really call it dating. Went out a couple of times with this one girl at school. After I came back after the anorexia, she came, she moved from another place. She moved to our school.
[53:57] It's interesting.
[53:58] I thought I heard you say not anorexia.
[54:02] But anorexia, which is a whole other kettle of fish, which we may or may not unpack, but I thought that was interesting.
[54:10] Yeah okay so you you dated this girl in in high school but it was well i wouldn't say i dated her you went out a couple of times right a couple of times she came over i went over to hers as well and just watched movies and sort of dated i guess but, people might have some people thought we were dating but we never, we never yeah we never formalized we never made it like we're boyfriend and girlfriend we never kissed we never did you hold hands or i think we am no i think we am we hugged we embraced even on the couch like watching a movie or something but i don't think we i don't recall us holding hands actually now what did you do with the teenage lust teenage boy lust thing i mean isn't that somewhat what drives us to overcome our fears of rejection and so on to ask Girls out.
[55:09] You know now you think now that you make me think about it i don't know it's probably the anorexia sort of oh so maybe maybe that was it like maybe maybe it's like well if i'm well fed, i'm gonna be lusty for a woman or a girl and i'm gonna end up with someone like my mother so i'll kill my sex drive through starvation yeah probably i used to do quite a bit of sports back then as well. I used to especially run. So I guess that got also rid of the excess energy.
[55:40] But do you remember, so you don't remember much in your sort of middle late teens, having a lot of lust, sexual desire and so on?
[55:51] No, I remember crushes, like random crushes every other week. Right. But like crazy lust, no, I wouldn't say so.
[56:01] I'm not sure I said crazy, but it's interesting that you'd add that, but last.
[56:05] No, fair enough. Okay.
[56:07] All right.
[56:07] Yeah.
[56:08] Okay. So then what happened? Did you go to university or what happened after high school?
[56:14] Yeah, I left after high school and moved back to a home country.
[56:19] And why did you do that?
[56:20] I studied at uni, same uni my father went to, actually, but different major.
[56:31] Right. And sorry, go ahead.
[56:34] No, sorry, go ahead.
[56:35] Well, and so you graduated and then did you come back to the West?
[56:42] Yes. Not initially, actually.
[56:46] Okay.
[56:48] So I started working there reluctantly because I was a bit fed up with the salary situation and cost of living. because the salaries were quite low while the cost of living was quite high.
[57:06] And then you came back to the West, and then you got involved with this woman, right?
[57:13] I actually met her while we were still at uni.
[57:19] Is she one of the reasons you came back?
[57:25] No, my home country is actually not that far from where I'm currently at.
[57:29] Oh, you said a four-hour drive, right?
[57:30] Okay, got it. Yeah, it's about a four-hour drive, so yeah.
[57:34] Okay. Okay. Now, how have things been going overall with your girlfriend?
[57:45] Actually, apart from the arguments, a few arguments last year and a bit of the ultimatum thing, last year was actually fairly good, I would say.
[57:57] Last year was fairly good, but we're talking seven years, right? So how have things been going overall?
[58:01] Fair enough, yeah. Fair enough, I would say good. And why do you think you haven't proposed?
[58:11] I mean, do you want to have kids? Do you want to be married? Is that something you want?
[58:14] I do. Initially, when we met, I was very much against kids. I thought they were a huge nuisance and swallowed up all those resources and made you unfree. And essentially, they would run your life. But I've since changed quite a bit. And I realized I would like to have medium-sized family. I'd like two or three kids. Actually, more three than two.
[58:43] So when you met her, you talked about not wanting kids, is that right?
[58:53] I think we didn't really talk kids initially. I think at some point she said she'd always wanted kids. Or she always said she wanted kids. I was initially, I was not really. I don't think it's for me.
[59:12] Okay, so she wanted kids and you said, I don't want kids.
[59:16] Yeah.
[59:17] Okay. And when did that begin to change for you?
[59:23] I would say significantly the last two years, ever since I moved abroad again. Sorry, go ahead. No, I used to get, like reading in the park, I used to get glimpses occasionally of what it would be like to, how cool it would be to have a kid and play with a kid in the park.
[59:46] Right.
[59:47] But that was like glimpses occasionally, and then it was sort of the defense would move back in. you would think of all the time you have to invest in them all the effort, all the money all the cool things you wouldn't be able to do right yeah, now did you want to get married and not have children or not get married?
[1:00:12] nah I'd rather yeah my priority is not marriage, let's put it that way I prefer the kids and not be married and then necessarily after being married I garbled that up sorry no I get it I get it okay now my issue my issues more the marriage than it is the children let's put it out and why is that do you think probably because I don't really believe there's something I know there are happy marriages I just don't know them. Well, but do you think that it's the marriage that makes.
[1:00:51] Sorry, do you think that it's a marriage that makes, do you think it's the act of getting married that makes relationships unhappy?
[1:01:01] No. If you phrase it that way, no. But I guess a part of me is worried that as soon as the paperwork is signed, my balls are on the line. Let's put it that way.
[1:01:12] Ah, okay. So this is a defense of your father. So do you think that your father knew that your mom was a total witch, with a capital B? Do you think that your father knew that your mom was abusive and violent and hysterical before he married you?
[1:01:38] He must have. Oh, I think he must have known.
[1:01:44] No, do you think he did? Must have, theoretical, right? You've known the guy. Do you think he did?
[1:01:52] Yeah, I think he did.
[1:01:53] Okay. Okay. So, your mother didn't magically change after she got married, right?
[1:02:00] That's right.
[1:02:02] So, I'm trying to figure out why you'd have this thing that a woman is nice and trustworthy, you put a ring on her finger and she, demonic, whatever, possession happens. So, why would you, I mean, why would you have that thought? That a woman changes, the ring is like the ring of power, corruption in Lord of the Rings, right?
[1:02:23] Why would the ring it's a bit of it's a bit of a meme that way Stefan and like you know there's tons of memes it all depends it all depends what sticks to your heart right this one sticks to your heart yeah so this one does, have you seen that in other people you know that they get married and the woman changes or the man changes is that something you've seen, no no I would say no first time I've No.
[1:02:53] Okay, so you haven't seen it in your own family. You've not seen it in any other family, but somehow the meme convinces you to go against all of your experience. Why?
[1:03:03] That's a very fair point.
[1:03:11] Let me ask this another way. What is your relationship like with your parents now?
[1:03:18] Terrible.
[1:03:19] Go on.
[1:03:21] I avoid them as much as I can because it's just boring bland conversation, there's no substance there's never any genuine question it's always about them sorry.
[1:03:36] Why the hell would you put up with that? I don't understand they say the conversation is boring, you're part of the conversation.
[1:03:42] Why don't you bring up something interesting because I'm scared to bring up something interesting why? Because I'd probably just get screamed at.
[1:03:52] Okay, so let's say you get screamed at. I mean, you're an adult, right? You're pushing 30. Let's say you get screamed at. All right, let me ask you this. How often do you see them or talk to them?
[1:04:13] Once a fortnight, maybe. See them not so much, maybe three times a year.
[1:04:21] Right. Now, if you were to get married, they would be there, right?
[1:04:28] Yes, unfortunately, yeah.
[1:04:29] Unfortunately, right? Like you have no choice. And then if you were to have children, they would be there even more, right?
[1:04:38] Yeah.
[1:04:39] Right. So this is why you're stuck in this timeless zone, right? Because if you get married and have kids, mommy and daddy are going to be a lot more than a fortnight between visits, right?
[1:04:57] I never thought about it that way.
[1:04:59] I mean, that's why I asked if they would get closer. but they would, right? Grandparents, right?
[1:05:03] I guess, yeah.
[1:05:05] I mean, I assume it's part of the culture that extended family is a value, right?
[1:05:10] Yeah, to be fair, I grew up abroad as well, so they were the only family members that moved abroad.
[1:05:20] No, I get that.
[1:05:21] But I mean, it's part of their culture.
[1:05:22] Right?
[1:05:23] Yeah.
[1:05:24] Okay.
[1:05:27] Like my grandparents didn't visit as often.
[1:05:29] I'm sorry?
[1:05:31] Maybe visitors. My grandparents didn't visit us that often. But aren't your parents closer than your grandparents were?
[1:05:40] Or physically?
[1:05:43] Yeah, not a substantial difference. Okay. What does your girlfriend think of your parents? She doesn't like my mother. And does she know what your mother did to you yes she knows okay so she doesn't like your mother but she likes your father, no she doesn't really like him either she hasn't my father whenever it's like he's not there when it's like dinners or something he's barely there doesn't really say anything girlfriend see or talk to your parents, see them, About the same, I guess. Three times a year.
[1:06:32] Okay.
[1:06:33] But she doesn't talk to them.
[1:06:34] I guess, every two weeks like you do, right?
[1:06:37] No. No, she... Thank God, no.
[1:06:40] Okay. And what do you think of your girlfriend's parents? Yes.
[1:06:46] I don't like them that much either.
[1:06:48] Why is that?
[1:06:51] The mom's a bit... tries to make herself absent. She tries to make a scene and jokes and stuff, but it's not funny, the things she says. And she tries to... Like whenever my girlfriend does something on the computer, or when she makes a piece of art on the computer, her mother says, oh, that's not that difficult, I can do it. or when she explains something to her on the computer, oh yeah, but it's easy, it's easy, it's easy. And then two minutes later, she comes back to her asking her to show it again because she forgot how it's done.
[1:07:26] So the mom's got to be in competition with her daughter?
[1:07:31] Yeah, very much so.
[1:07:32] Okay, and her father?
[1:07:33] And the father, he was beaten severely as a child by his own mother. what my girlfriend told me and then he sort of broke off contact with her for like a very bad relationship with with his mother and then now she's i don't know 90 something i guess and now she's ill and like for easter he bought a presence all of a sudden he's i don't know he's back in in touch with her but she's never apologized for anything and always treated him like shit all her life i don't understand why he's um why he's acting that way you don't understand why, your father-in-law is in touch with abusive parents, you didn't just ask me that did you oh you didn't just state that did you, you can't understand they've treated him like crap he's still in touch with them did you really just ask me that how dissociated are you, I did.
[1:08:52] Well, what do you think of asking me that?
[1:08:58] Foolish. Well, you understand it's a little crazy.
[1:09:01] Right?
[1:09:03] Yeah.
[1:09:04] All right. Well, we'll get back to that. I just wanted to, my jaw just hit the floor and it hit the floor because you said that and because you didn't even notice that you'd said that. And how did your in-laws, your father and mother-in-law, how did they treat your girlfriend when she was growing up?
[1:09:22] My girlfriend never really spoke that much about it i know that her mother was very proud that she went to like the hardest high school head in in the region, and she's the first one to to go to uni of her family i'm sorry do you not know anything really about your girlfriend of seven years childhood, Hmm. Not that much. She doesn't like to really talk about it.
[1:09:54] She doesn't like to talk about it. So isn't that kind of a red flag? If you don't even know her origin story, how can you know her?
[1:10:10] Hmm.
[1:10:12] Why doesn't she like to talk about it? Has she given you any hints as to anything negative that might have happened?
[1:10:20] Not really, but I get the hints, which is, I get like the way she's still, I wouldn't say worships her parents, but. Oh, so she's a big fan of her parents. She's a little bit, say again?
[1:10:36] She is a big fan of her parents. She likes her parents.
[1:10:40] Yes she says usual usual shy they're not they're not perfect yada yada they did the best they could with what they had what they had alright, have you had much curiosity about your girlfriend's childhood, I actually yes I think I would say so because I've tried to break break through with her to her asking about and what does she say what does she Does she say.
[1:11:10] I don't want to talk about it, or there's nothing to talk about? Like, what does she say?
[1:11:15] No, she said that my parents were fine. They did the best they could. I don't want you to poison me or something like that.
[1:11:23] Oh, okay.
[1:11:24] You're projecting from your own parents onto mine.
[1:11:29] Oh, she's got psychological explanations. Excellent.
[1:11:33] Yeah.
[1:11:33] That's another just way of saying shut up, but with more syllables. Okay. Okay. I mean, can you really evaluate how your girlfriend is going to be as a mother if you don't know anything really about her childhood?
[1:11:46] Yeah, that's what's one of the things, I guess, that's keeping me a bit insecure about the way forward, Stefan.
[1:11:53] So you really, it's a blank. Her first 20 years of life give or take, right? I mean, it's mostly a blank to you?
[1:12:00] No, I guess she was, I guess. I know she was, both parents were working. She used to, initially, her grandmother would take care of her after school, until she passed, and then I think...
[1:12:14] Wait, her grandmother on which side?
[1:12:18] Materno, so not the abusive grandmother. No, not the abusive one. She's essentially no contact with her abusive grandmother.
[1:12:29] Okay.
[1:12:34] I know they used to tell her, that's what she told me. You're lucky you're so skinny and small, because otherwise we would have beaten the shit out of you. Maybe not in those words.
[1:12:45] Wait, sorry. Her parents said to her, you're lucky you're so skinny and small, or we would beat the shit out of you?
[1:12:52] Probably not.
[1:12:53] Well, whatever.
[1:12:54] Something like that, right?
[1:12:55] We don't have to have it verbatim, right?
[1:12:58] That's what her parents said to her? Her father, yes, apparently.
[1:13:03] And does she have siblings?
[1:13:07] No, she's an only child as well. huh so i mean she was threatened with extreme violence as a child by her father, Yeah, I guess it's fair to say yes.
[1:13:19] Well, I guess you're just projecting to have any criticisms of that, aren't you? Jeez. How emotionally available is she as a whole? Because you're a total fortress. I can't get any emotional connection with you at all. I'm just wondering if that's the case with your girlfriend as well. I mean, you've had no emotion and no animation over the course of this entire conversation.
[1:13:45] Conversation it's all just you know yeah yes and the other and that and we might as well be talking about the most boring subject in the world rather than your own actual life sorry go ahead yeah no i was about to sob earlier so that's uh not when you hide it well okay thank you okay so is do you have an emotional connection or contact with your girlfriend maybe you just don't have it with me that's fine i mean i guess it's an unusual situation but what about with your girlfriend and do you guys connect emotionally?
[1:14:13] Is she available to you? Does the spontaneity and play of her feelings connect you?
[1:14:20] Yes, I think so. I would say so. She's very caring as well with me. I had a medical incident last year and she took care of me for a good 10 days until she had to go back for work.
[1:14:37] Sorry, what was that? 10 days of what?
[1:14:41] No, I had a bit of an accident last year.
[1:14:45] Oh, an accident.
[1:14:45] And yes, and so she actually came over, took care of me.
[1:14:50] But no, that's not an emotional connection. That's not emotional. I mean, taking care of someone, I mean, nurses do that, right? They were very nice to me when I had a colonoscopy. So, you know, that's not a, that's not the test. When you're helpless and she takes care of you, that's not the test of emotional connection.
[1:15:14] Hmm.
[1:15:15] The test of emotional connection is if you say something that upsets her, she asks you to tell her more and doesn't make it about her.
[1:15:26] Okay. Yeah, I would say recently she's been more that way. She's been curious about...
[1:15:35] Oh, okay. So then she says, you have some questions about my childhood, so I know it's uncomfortable for me but I want to know more about your questions and let's have an honest conversation about that.
[1:15:51] Yeah, not that available.
[1:15:55] I mean, she told you that her father threatened to beat the shit out of her and said she was just lucky that he didn't, right? Now that's going to give you some concerns about how she might be as a mother, right?
[1:16:09] I don't know i i don't see her like you don't know if that would give you any concerns about how she might be as a mother if she's got unprocessed half death threats in her childhood on the on the one hand it does yes no stefan let me rephrase it on the one hand it does, on the other hand when i see her father when i see her i don't see them as alike like you don't see them as i don't i don't think she would model off of her father in that instance.
[1:16:45] Sorry, but let's say she models off her mother. Her mother approves of that, those violence or threats. Her mother dated, got engaged to, got married and gave children to a man who's capable of uttering those kinds of threats without regret, without remorse.
[1:17:04] I don't, are you doing the split where it's like.
[1:17:07] Well, you know, the dad's really aggressive, but the mom's pretty nice.
[1:17:12] No, I was, I wasn't even thinking about her mom either. I was just thinking she's not that way, not like either her father or the mother.
[1:17:21] All right. So let me ask you this. She knows that you were shut down a lot as a child, that if you had disagreements with your parents or had criticisms of your parents, that you would be threatened into submission, right?
[1:17:40] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:17:41] So then you have questions, legitimate questions, about her childhood, and what does she do?
[1:17:49] She shuts them down.
[1:17:50] She does, knowing that's exactly what your mother did, right? But tell me more about how caring she is. If she's pushing the same wounds made by your mother to get the same effect of your mother, I guess it's nice that she took care of you when you were in an accident, but that's not regular life.
[1:18:15] Yeah, you've got a point there. I think it's one of the things I jotted down a while back as well about... And, you know, a funny thing, well, it's not funny, but when you brought up about her potentially being like her father, that's essentially how her father proposed to her mother. It's like either we marry or we break up.
[1:18:41] Oh, that's how her father proposed to her mother?
[1:18:44] Yes.
[1:18:46] Yeah. And I personally, I don't ever said that she was going to be like her father. I just said that she has unprocessed trauma, and we don't even know what it is. We've just seen a little bit, but what I've heard is pretty terrible. So she's got unprocessed trauma, and if she becomes a mom, it's going to get acted out. Unprocessed stuff gets acted out. That's the whole point of self-knowledge, right?
[1:19:13] So you don't have to end up repeating what happened to you.
[1:19:18] Because stuff remains unprocessed because it's justified because we justify it right as your girlfriend is justifying the bad behavior of her parents right, well they did the best they could with the knowledge they had or they meant well or whatever nonsense she's saying so because she's justified it she's not going to have any barrier to repeating it, because we can't justify something and then say well it's totally just and fair and right but I'm never going to do it, the only way we say I'm never going to do it is saying it's fucked up and it's wrong. That's how we don't do it, right?
[1:19:53] Right.
[1:19:54] I mean, if you say to a kid, it's totally right and fair and just to shoplift candy bars, just don't get caught, and then we punish them for doing that, that would be a trap. That would be kind of crazy, right? So she justifies what happened to her as a child, which means most likely she's going to recreate it with your children, and you don't even know what that is. But you know that you get rejected if you even ask. And you get insulted. Because when she says, you're just projecting from your own family, that's an attack. That's not even, I don't really want to talk about it. I understand you've got questions. I'm just not comfortable talking about it. She's like, no, you're so immature and so lacking in self-knowledge that you don't even know that you're projecting from your family. So that's an insult. Is that fair to say?
[1:20:48] I think that's fair to say. I can also see that she snaps. It's like whenever I question her parents, or how she was raised by her parents, it's like she snaps out of it. It's like she gets possessed by something and sort of snarls.
[1:21:12] Right. Okay, let's talk about her dad, right?
[1:21:19] Yeah so has her dad ever sat you down and said okay listen son um let's be frank let's get real here you've been dating my daughter for a while now what's your plan what what are your intentions what's going to happen because you've been dating for a couple of years i'm not hearing let me i've never heard any talk about marriage and you know she obviously cares about you a great deal you care about her a great deal do you not want to get married do you not want to have kids i mean i've got to look out for her because she's my daughter and and i love her so, let's let's have a frank discussion man-to-man about what your intentions are, no nothing of the sort do you think that would be a reasonable thing to do as a father, Yes, yes. Of course it would be. Of course it would be.
[1:22:13] So, and his mother might do that too, but it's more likely to be the father. So why hasn't her father done that?
[1:22:29] Who?
[1:22:31] I mean, I would hope that you would do that to your daughter if she ended up burning up glorious fertility years on some relationship where there was not any sense of a future, you'd say, well, what are you guys doing? I mean, it may be both of you down, but certainly one of you, I mean, what's happening here? Like, you guys are just kind of bumping along. Like, what's your life plan? What's going on?
[1:22:54] No, I guess he doesn't care.
[1:22:56] Well, I don't know, but that would be an act of caring, right?
[1:23:00] Sorry, it was in response to your, yeah. No, no, no.
[1:23:03] What I mean is, I don't know if he doesn't care. I mean, it's impossible for parents to not care at all. I mean, it can be negative or whatever, but...
[1:23:10] Maybe he doesn't care enough, I don't know.
[1:23:14] Well, it's kind of weird, isn't it, to... His daughter's now seven years into a relationship, and has no proposal, no ring, no promise, no nothing, right? Most of her 20s have been burned up in this relationship that if it doesn't work out, right, if you guys do break up, she's going to need a couple of years to get over it. So then she's going to start, what, trying to have a family when she's in her early to mid-30s? Starting to date? It's a catastrophe, potentially, for his daughter, right?
[1:23:51] Yeah.
[1:23:51] And fathers, if you care about your daughters, you try not to let catastrophes happen to them, right? So what the fuck is he doing?
[1:24:05] Not being there, I guess.
[1:24:06] I don't know what's going on, but he's there for the... See, he's there for his own mother who abused him. He's there for her, but his own daughter? I don't know. It's a weird thing. I don't know when men just got kicked out of any kind of responsibility as far as this stuff goes.
[1:24:27] He does a bit what my mother does in general. She takes care of all the petty shit, driving people places, going grocery shopping 15 times because every time she forgets something.
[1:24:38] Or like your girlfriend taking care of you when you were in an accident. But not listening to you when you have questions about her childhood because you might want to have kids with her.
[1:24:55] All right.
[1:24:56] Let's go back to your mother. If that's all right. So why does your mother write these letters? Why does she scream? Why does she manipulate and bully and threaten? I'll tell you why, and then you can tell me if it fits, right? I mean, it doesn't mean it's a fact. Have you ever been in a situation where you desperately need someone to do something, but you have no credibility with them?
[1:25:26] You hit the nail on the head, Stefan, all the time.
[1:25:30] That's the job. That's the gig. Because your mother wants you to listen to her, wants you to, I guess, quote, obey her, but she doesn't have any credibility with you. Your mother wants you to come running to her at the end of school and not want to go and play with your friends, right? Because she wants love, she wants loyalty, she wants affection, she has this fantasy, right? He owes me the dopamine of love. I've paid by being his mother. He damn well owes me. You know, if you pay for something and the person doesn't deliver, you get angry, right? Because they've just stolen from you, right? So if you pay by being a mother, then your kid owes you the dopamine of love. And if your kid doesn't pay, you can get as angry as you want because they owe you and they better pay.
[1:26:31] Allegiance, yeah.
[1:26:33] What's kind of, well, love, whatever, making her feel good, right?
[1:26:36] Yeah.
[1:26:38] Now, that's called being entitled, right? I mean, it literally is the same as a man saying, a woman owes me sex because I bought her dinner. Now, of course, a woman doesn't owe you sex. If you bought her dinner, I don't care if you bought her a yacht. She doesn't owe you sex, right?
[1:26:52] Right.
[1:26:54] And, of course, if you were to say to a woman, do you owe a man, forget about the sex part, Do you owe a man loyalty, love, and affection if he buys things, pays for dinner? They'd say, well, no, of course not. In fact, you've seen this a million times on social media. The incels, they're so terrible because they think that women owe them something and blah, blah, blah. You can take a woman out for dinner 10 times, 200 bucks a pop, $2,000, she owes you nothing. I'm not going to disagree with that. it's not a contract, but then if you say to women do children owe their parents affection just for giving them a roof over their head and food because it's the same principle right give you stuff, owe me affection, The difference being that the woman chooses to go on the date, the child does not choose to be there.
[1:27:51] So your mother wants something from you that she believes you owe her.
[1:27:58] And when you don't pay her what you owe, she initiates quasi-legal proceedings against you. This is why I asked you to read that letter. That letter is like a legal pleading document, right? Your honor, here's the reasons why, right?
[1:28:17] Here is this is what you would do if somebody like if you if you give somebody ten thousand dollars and they're supposed to give you a used car they've taken the ten thousand dollars and then they block you you're going to send them a letter right here's what you got to do here's why if you don't do it these are going to be the negative consequences i'm going to go to the the next level and so on right yeah so this is a legal letter your mother's suing you for wanting to play with your friends rather than be with her i'm not i'm only half kidding about this no it's it's the way i always i've always perceived it as well so when you want something something from someone.
[1:29:01] This is why I asked earlier about sadism versus desperation. So your mother wants you to like her. Your mother wants you to love her. You, I assume, as a child, did not particularly like or love your mother. Is that a fair thing to say?
[1:29:24] I don't know, Stefan. On the one hand, I remember all the, i guess the donna didn't know the donna was terrified of her actually well i i think it's tough to love people who threaten and hit you yeah i mean wouldn't you say i mean if a woman said if a woman said my boyfriend is constantly threatening and beating me to the point where he's scared i'm going to be out in public and he's going to get arrested would you and she said said.
[1:29:53] But I love him, what would you say?
[1:29:56] What the hell are you saying?
[1:29:58] No, you don't. I mean, you may have some sort of trauma bond. And of course, we do have to bond with our parents because there are means of survival. But that's not love. Let's not insult the term love by saying it applies to parents who treat their children wonderfully and parents who insult, threaten, scream at, and beat their children.
[1:30:21] So your mother wanted the fruits of love without the work of love. Your mother wanted the fruits of being virtuous without actually being virtuous. So what people do, and this is what abusers do in general, is they act like complete shitheads. and then they imagine, that the only reason they acted badly is because their children misbehaved. So if somebody owes me $10,000 and won't pay it, I'm going to get angry at that person and I'm going to say, I'm angry because the person is not paying me the $10,000 and I really need it. I've got to pay my taxes or something like that. So I'm angry angry, and I feel kind of helpless, but I'm owed $10,000, and if this person would pay it, I wouldn't have a problem, but because this person is not paying the $10,000, I'm really angry at them. So if somebody were to say, why are you angry? I'd say, because the guy won't pay me the $10,000 he owes me, right? Does that make sense?
[1:31:29] Yeah, yeah, it does.
[1:31:31] So abuse is when you create an imaginary debt, that your children owe you something.
[1:31:39] Yeah. Yeah, I was about to say that the kid has to, has to repay. Yeah.
[1:31:46] This, you know, Hey kid, I I'm, I'm your mother. I gave birth to you. I carried you for nine months. I, I, I breastfed you.
[1:31:52] I was up half the night.
[1:31:53] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:31:55] Gave up my career for you. Okay.
[1:31:57] Oh, there you go. There you go.
[1:31:58] I, I could have been explicitly said.
[1:32:01] I gave up everything. I've, I've got a PhD. I gave up everything for you. You owe me, right? It's psycho. It's completely psycho. It's how the fist is drawn back to punch. You owe me. The imaginary debt that is put upon children is the excuse for abuse. You owe your mother nothing. Because you didn't choose to be born, you didn't choose her as a mother, you didn't choose to stay.
[1:32:46] It's cannibalistic. You don't want to feed off your children in that way.
[1:32:52] My daughter owes me nothing. Now, she does enjoy spending time with me. We do enjoy going places together. We're going out for the day soon, just the two of us. And I don't have to write her threatening letters to get her to do that. We enjoy each other's company. She doesn't owe me that. because I made the choices in the relationship she didn't. We owe our parents justice. We owe our parents a fair evaluation of their characters and behavior, but nothing else.
[1:33:32] Nothing else i mean can you reimagine if there was a culture and i there are cultures where a woman can get kidnapped and be forced to marry but i actually knew a woman once who told me this story that she was in india and she was kidnapped and she was raped and she was forced to give birth and she was forced to be married and all of that because i think people were trying to claw their way up the caste system or something like that it's just absolutely appalling story now if a a woman gets kidnapped and force-married, do we then say, you can never get divorced, you owe your enforced, quote, husband, you owe him everything, and you must obey and worship him for the rest of your life?
[1:34:18] No.
[1:34:19] No, because she didn't make that choice to be in that relationship. And children don't make a choice to be in a relationship with you, which is why you have to treat them the very best.
[1:34:28] Because that choice comes along right my daughter when she becomes an adult she doesn't have to talk to me at all, so it's incumbent upon me to make that worth her while right yeah yeah which is exactly what my mother's unable to do well every time you interact with her it makes you want to leave, I'm sorry about that yeah, And now.
[1:34:58] Doesn't your girlfriend to some degree think that you owe her marriage?
[1:35:09] Shit, Stefan, to some part of me thinks that as well. Like I've used up so much of her time.
[1:35:17] Well, it certainly is true that, but you know, she's an adult. She made the choice. and she chose she chose she chose to not tell you about her childhood other than a couple of massive warning flags but she made that choice she made the choice to say marry me without knowing my history have children with me without knowing about my childhood, And she insulted you for even wanting to know. That's a choice that she made. She's made that choice. She knows about your childhood. She knows, I assume, that it's been helpful and valuable for you to talk about your childhood, to be honest about your childhood.
[1:36:08] And she has chosen to protect her parents rather than connect with you.
[1:36:18] So she's living for the past. not the future. She's living for their preferences, not your legitimate needs in order to feel safe and secure. She knew that you grew up with an aggressive mother. She tells you that she was verbally aggressed against extremely as a child, and she won't tell you anything more. How on earth are you supposed to trust a woman who knew you grew up with a psychoaggressive mother and won't tell you about her own childhood other than a couple of clues that she was crazily aggressed against verbally. And God knows what else, right? We don't know what else.
[1:37:00] No, we don't know.
[1:37:01] So we come, as you know, with instruction manuals. We come with histories. And the histories are instruction manuals.
[1:37:11] So you come with an instruction manual called, it's tough for me to trust women, and it's easy for me to be bullied and intimidated by women right so someone who loves you should do what a woman who loves you should do what, not bully me yeah listen to me listen to you not bully you and reassure you, that she will never behave as your mother did. Because you come with a big... It's another thing that drives it up the wall. Whenever I say, that's just what my mother, that's just what my mother does or did or would do, that drives it up the wall.
[1:37:56] In what circumstances do you say that?
[1:38:02] I don't know. Even the ultimatum thing, what I said is like, this is...
[1:38:06] No, but was there other things?
[1:38:08] Threatening the bond.
[1:38:09] Yeah. Yeah, were there other things that she has done or said that have reminded you of your mother?
[1:38:17] Occasionally she nags. Not sure. She's not well half the time. That's unfair. She's frequently unwell. I don't know. Headache, stomachache, tired, fatigued.
[1:38:33] Oh, so she can be naggy if she's tired. Well, no wonder you hesitate about having kids with her, because when you have kids, you can be a little tired.
[1:38:46] Fuck. I've never made that connection either.
[1:38:49] What else?
[1:38:52] Hmm. I don't know. Sometimes she can get super petty.
[1:39:01] Like what? Can you give me an example? I'm not doubting you. I'm just not sure what you mean.
[1:39:06] I don't know. She was a couple of weeks ago. It was some local elections thing or something. thing and she went on and on and on about some idiot she knew apparently got elected, and she went on for like half an hour about that was with her father as well about uh it's unbelievable how fucked up this world is these kinds of idiots make their way up to get elected even and this and that and just went on for half an hour but it was a midwit and a stupid ass and, And that was a bit, like, it felt like she had, like, was something personal underneath it. All this looking at the small.
[1:39:51] Well, isn't that her mother being superior to the world?
[1:39:55] Yeah. I guess it is.
[1:40:08] Anything else?
[1:40:09] No, another thing she said to me is recently that, no, she's been quite stressed recently with work and our long distance thing. And at some point she was, look, I'm all burnt up. I'm half burned out. And it's all because of you, because we've got this long distance thing going on.
[1:40:30] Oh, no, she didn't.
[1:40:30] I don't know where I stand. No, no, no, no.
[1:40:32] No. She didn't blame you for her being upset, did she? She knows about your mother, right?
[1:40:38] She did Stefan she said I'm stressed and burned out and it's all because of you, yeah she did I told her that's exactly what my mother did as well and did she catch herself and say oh my gosh I'm so sorry oh my gosh no she didn't say that what did she say, I don't know I think probably she said don't you ever say don't you dare say that I'm not like your mother, oh so she acted like your mother you said you're acting like my mother and then she got even more aggressive just like your mother yeah dude yeah dude okay let me ask you this what has she taken, huge responsibility for in her life or your shared life, I can't come up with anything, Stefan.
[1:41:44] I mean, something at work, does she say, well, you know, I did do this, that, or the other, so I can understand why the person is upset, and that makes sense, or... What level of self-ownership does she manifest?
[1:42:01] Not that much. She doesn't see herself how she comes across She comes across to strangers, a bit off-putting, a bit very cold, keeping people at a distance, shutting down. I'm not sure if that answers your question, though.
[1:42:18] So can you think of a time when she said, that's 100% me, my bad, this is all on me?
[1:42:27] No. In general, she jokes that it's always my fault. That's her stupid joke. but then when I push back she takes some ownership but I don't think she's ever heard of her say it's 100% my fault, or 100% on her so the only thing that makes it possible for us to love someone is self ownership that's the price you play the price people pay for blaming others is to not be loved, because we can only love a cause not an effect because virtue is a cause not an effect virtue is something that we decide to do of our own volition and we can't love a shadow we can only love the person, and so if she doesn't take self-ownership and say that's 100% me because in life in general things are 100% you.
[1:43:25] They're 100% me they're 100% her.
[1:43:27] I like to aim for 150% because I have the weasel out part like I think most of us do so i aim for 150 right like it was late for the call today and i said i wasn't reminded, i'm sure that was me like i didn't set the reminder or something like that right so i didn't say you know well it was too early i don't know why you wanted it that early like whatever nonsense that would be right so and i appreciated you your your patience and apologized and so on right so i mean that's just a little example i didn't you know well my mom used to drag me out of bed really early so i'm not used to like you know whatever nonsense i could come up with right so or just pretend that nothing happened you know well let's get started you know without recognizing i was late so yeah if you can't think of a time when she's taken, 100 self-ownership what do you love and that's the big question right because that's the question that's foundational.
[1:44:28] I think, to this situation. So if you can, tell me, what do you love about your girlfriend?
[1:44:42] I would have said she's kind, but I know that she can be kind, and at times she can be vicious.
[1:44:49] Right, which means it's a whim. A virtue is that which you do consistently, right? I mean, I can't say I'm a great golfer if I play one hole accidentally really well. I'm a good golfer if I do it consistently, right? And I'm virtuous if my kindness is consistent. And the virtue is when it's difficult, right?
[1:45:12] Yeah yeah, so what do you love, I don't know honesty directness responsibility maturity what do you love, i wouldn't say any one of the ones you mentioned are actually unalloyedly applicable okay let me ask you this what do you really admire about her, and i would have said that she puts up with me yeah that's a that's not bad and that's that's a general bro thing of spineless appeasement.
[1:46:03] I can't believe she's stuck with me all these years. So no, what do you genuinely admire about her? And in general, it should be something independent of the relationship. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:46:18] No, her idea of raising children and being a happy family and the prospect of that.
[1:46:26] Sorry, what are her ideas about raising children? and how is she going to be as a parent? What's her philosophy of child raising?
[1:46:39] I don't know. It's probably just more an image I have in my head. Wait, hang on, hang on.
[1:46:44] You've been together seven years. You want to have kids. You said two or three kids, preferably three. So you've been with her for seven years. You don't know about her childhood and you don't know how she wants to raise children. Does she want to stay home with kids?
[1:47:01] So initially she said, that's another red flag for me. She said she She didn't want to be dependent upon me as a breadwinner. Whenever she wanted a pair of shoes or a haircut, she didn't want to come to me and beg for it, essentially. But I pushed back. I said it was unfair to me. And then I wished I would like her to stay home with the kids, to raise the children and not have some idiot stranger and some underpaid daycare, take care of my kids and transmit whatever values they transmit.
[1:47:41] Sorry, let's just back up for a second here. Sorry. You said you wanted her to stay home, and she said, I don't want to have to beg you for grocery money.
[1:47:52] Well, it wasn't quite grocery money, but...
[1:47:57] Haircuts, money, whatever, right? Yeah. So she doesn't want to be dependent upon you, and she doesn't want to beg you to give her money for legitimate expenses.
[1:48:12] Yeah.
[1:48:15] Help me out of saying, what the hell is she talking about?
[1:48:17] The way she would frame it is it's more not necessary expenses, but like whim purchases or whatever she fancies.
[1:48:27] Okay. Sorry, did she have the view of you as some sort of Turkish sultan that's going to cut her fingers off if she reaches for the gold purse without permission? Like, what does that mean? Does that mean that you would be 100% in control of the money? and she wouldn't have what, a credit card or a checkbook or access to cash? I don't, I don't, is that something you've said? Like, I want you to stay home, and you'll have to beg me for spending money.
[1:48:56] No, it was never something I said.
[1:48:57] Okay, so what is she, because you understand, this is a total, this is a total NPC, brain-dead feminist talking point.
[1:49:04] I know.
[1:49:05] Okay, so, but you told me right at the beginning, she's not an NPC.
[1:49:11] Yeah, you're right.
[1:49:12] So that's a huge insult.
[1:49:13] Isn't it?
[1:49:14] It's a huge insult to say that you would control me and not allow me to get a haircut because you're such a patriarchal asshole bully. And I'm not going to submit myself to that kind of insane levels of psychotic control over my life because that's who you are. Am I wrong? Isn't that kind of what she's saying?
[1:49:35] It is what she's saying. And it piggybacks off of, My being seen and regarded as a cheapskate, both in my family and sort of, I wouldn't say friends group, but I do spend mindfully, let's put it that way.
[1:49:58] You do what?
[1:50:00] I spend mindfully, spend my money mindfully. I'm a bit of a cheapskate. What does that mean.
[1:50:06] A cheapskate? I know what the word means, but I don't know what it means in the context of you.
[1:50:10] You well i would uh rather not spend money than spend it okay so you're a sensible human being i want yeah i guess but i mean do you know do you know how much people suffer do you know how much people suffer in life because they overspend it's insane i know it's it's stressful it's terrifying it's worrying and you know like i was just reading this in the show last night like in america one one out of eight families can't even pay their bills.
[1:50:38] Like they can't pay their debt bills.
[1:50:42] Now, why is it that people are suffering?
[1:50:46] Oh my God, the grocery prices are so high. Why are they suffering so much? Because they didn't save. Say, ah, well, inflation. It's like, yeah, but saving doesn't mean just sticking money in the bank, right? So they didn't save. Why? Because they spent money on bullshit. So because people spent all this money on bullshit, they're now stressing out because, hey, guess what? The environment, sorry, the economic environment goes up and down there's there are recessions there's inflation all this shit is is totally common and so the reason you save money is because there are these stupid things that the government does that jacks up the price of things right so i don't i mean i have no sympathy for the people oh well yes but yeah there's inflation it's like yeah you know that you know that there's such a thing as inflation you know inflation went up to like 15 in the 80s right so i don't understand just save your money save your money so you're not stressed later that's all and people are like well i can't pay my grocery bills it's like well you should have saved your money, But you spent it on, and people would like women with these tattoos and makeup and perfect nails and, and eyelashes and so on, all of them, you know, huge amounts of money. It's like, well, you chose to go to Puerto Rico for a week. You chose to go on a cruise. You chose. So, so now you're stressed about money, but that's why you save money because winter always comes. And sometimes it's a long ass winter. Sorry for this minor rant, but you know, you're such a cheapskate. It's like, okay, talk to me when grocery bills doubled in five years.
[1:52:10] Then talk to me about being a cheapskate because i'll be fine i'll be fine i'll have the money to buy my groceries and then you'll be out there complaining about the price of groceries when what you're really doing is you're complaining about your own lack of preparation for the inevitability that government's going to fuck up the economy anyway sorry but that's just kind of annoying to me but because i mean i've been called a cheapskate too but i'm not worried about my grocery bills right now sorry go ahead no i think the same way and you know the ironic thing is that in many respects In fact, she's just as much a cheapskate as I am. But then she holds, she rubs it into my face. And then whenever I push back and say, well, it seems to me that you're not really acting differently. She says, well, she doesn't agree and I'm way more excessive than her and that's that.
[1:53:03] And does she know that your parents have called you a cheapskate?
[1:53:08] Yeah she knows it because they've called me so in front of her so then she also calls you a cheapskate, yeah okay but she says I've gotten better over the years no no I don't care about that but what I am saying is that, she's taking over your parents wounds and using them for her own advantage, yeah, she is it, and because she does that she won't tell you about her childhood because she doesn't want to give you power so you've told her about your childhood and she's using that as far as I can see and I'm happy to be corrected right you told her about your childhood which means you've said, I'm controllable by these buttons here are my buttons and then she pushes the buttons to get you to do what she wants Now.
[1:54:09] She won't tell you about her childhood Why? Because she doesn't want to give you access to her buttons She wants to stay in control.
[1:54:21] Because and the funny thing is she calls you projecting because she's like well you know when you find out about somebody's sore spots you hammer them to control them so the last thing i'm ever going to do is tell you about my source my sore spots because she she's genuinely projecting because because you'll misuse my sore spots the way i'm misusing yours us yeah i i can see that now yeah you know bringing up another thought i had um it's an occasion whenever i bring up something or um i don't have a concrete example now actually when i think of it but i know i've thought about it in the past is whenever i say something, whenever i open up in an argument it's going to come back and get used against me, uh right yeah i mean that's that's quite common uh it's really tragic yeah it's really and i assume the same thing happened with your parents that they would bring stuff up from long ago, i guess and at the same time i can't bring stuff up from long ago because obviously it's in the past you gotta move on in the past you gotta move on your x age now that was so so many years ago. At some point, you've got to take charge of your own life. Yada, yada.
[1:55:43] Right, right, right. Tragically common as well. Is there anything that you admire about how your girlfriend conducts her life outside of the relationship?
[1:55:58] Not really. Like me, she doesn't really have any friends. what about at work do you admire the way she handles things at work, no i would say no she gets overstressed she is capable, she can get very creative she can that's quite uh i appreciate that whenever she like, does creative things uh nice thing like aesthetically nice things right that is very very cool, but she can't handle the pressure of work. She gets totally eaten alive by it. She can't keep a distance and ends up running around for everybody else.
[1:56:43] Okay, so I guess two questions. Number one, if she can't handle the stress of work, how is she going to handle the stress of motherhood, number one? Number two, if there's nothing you admire about her, what will her children admire about her?
[1:57:00] Fuck.
[1:57:03] And if they don't admire things about her how is she going to raise them, Because we were talking earlier, if you don't respect, love, and admire your parents, you don't want to emulate them, but they still need you to do stuff. So then they just get aggressive or punitive. They hit, they withdraw, they scream, they yell, they just bully, they half-sue you with these quasi seven-year-old legal letters from hell.
[1:57:32] So if you can't think of anything that you really admire about your girlfriend then it seems likely that your children will not admire anything about their mother and if they don't admire i mean imagine a son you have a son maybe you have three sons i don't know but you have a son if your son does not admire his mother why would he listen to her if he views her as kind kind of petty and and not worthy of respect and and manipulative and like why would he listen to her he's just going to roll his eyes and what happens to petty women when their sons roll their eyes they snap yeah they lose their shit right yes yeah and then and then the sons respect the mothers even less which makes the mothers lose their shit even more which means the sons respect Correct the mothers even.
[1:58:29] You understand. Where's the end to that?
[1:58:31] Yeah, it's runaway behavior, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the funny thing is that you brought up respect now with my own mother. She still yaps it in my face. I deserve respect. I demand respect. I just laugh her out of the room.
[1:58:56] But not far enough, maybe.
[1:58:59] Yeah so what's the benefit of being in touch with your parents i'm not saying there isn't one i don't know i'm just genuinely curious what is i don't know the benefit of being in touch with your parents um they're quite wealthy so i guess part of it is a prospect of inheritance right, but i mean you were in the 30s they're not on death's door right, and that's true sorry late 20s right so okay so that's decades away right give or take yeah okay what else, Odd favors here and there.
[1:59:37] Like what?
[1:59:41] Like, I don't know, sometimes like birthday gifts for holidays. I don't know. Okay, so just material shit.
[1:59:51] Okay, so I don't care about that. You shouldn't either. Yeah. So material stuff. What else?
[1:59:59] No, other than that, nothing. There's no guidance provided. Well, no, it's counter.
[2:00:05] Your mother is still demanding respect. She's still bullying you. She's still threatening you.
[2:00:10] Yeah, that's true.
[2:00:12] So the abuse, as far as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the abuse still continue?
[2:00:20] It does. It's obviously different now, but it does, yeah.
[2:00:24] Okay.
[2:00:24] All the pretense, all the...
[2:00:26] Well, you can't be honest, right?
[2:00:28] All the walking around in eggshells, yeah.
[2:00:31] Eggshells talking about nothing and you can't be honest with your parents family right you can't sit down sorry you can't be honest with your girlfriend's parents so you can't sit down with your girlfriend's parents and say all right i'm kind of stuck here you know i i really care about your daughter and then and you do right you care about your daughter but you know one thing i'm concerned about is i haven't heard anything about her childhood and she kind of won't tell me so i'm sorry to have to do this but i just need to know what her childhood was like you know this in every her childhood that's good and bad, and I kind of need to map that because it's hard to know someone really well without knowing their childhood. My spider sense is tingling in a way because she won't talk about it, but can we just spend an hour talking about her childhood, right? I mean, seven years into the relationship, I kind of need to know to figure out what to do next, so I'd really, really appreciate that if you guys could accommodate me. And what would they say?
[2:01:33] I think they would be sort of feel like imposed upon. What do you mean? Okay, let's play it out.
[2:01:40] Let's play it out. So they'd say, what do you mean? And I'd say, what part of I want to know about her childhood is not comprehensive?
[2:01:47] In what way is it relevant? Why are we involved?
[2:01:51] Sorry, why are you involved in your daughter's childhood? I mean, you're her parents, right? So I think that would be how you're involved, right?
[2:01:59] Right yeah how are we involved in this relationship now what's it about with us, um well i can repeat this if you like but i need to know about your daughter's childhood i can't get the information from her so i have to come to you so you're involved because i'm not able to get the information from her and i kind of need to know what her childhood was like because you know if we move forward and we and we have kids she's going to be a mother and i need to know what her her childhood was like because that's going to have an effect on how she is as a mother, well what do what do you think about it you you being my girlfriend in this case what does she think about about this situation here i don't think we should be discussing this without her yeah and what would she say, I don't know. I think she would try and brush it aside.
[2:02:56] Right. And I would say to you, I would say, yeah, and this is kind of what happens is I try to find out and she just kind of brushes it aside. Which, you know, doesn't doesn't give me much comfort. I mean, childhood should be an open book, right? The good and the bad. Right. And I've been open about the good and the bad in my childhood. And so given that she won't tell me, I guess, you know, tell me, you know, what was she like as a kid? How did you guys interact? How did you discipline her? her um what was it like for her growing up because you know i mean i i need to know these things, so that i can move forward and you know she's kind of given me a thing which is like we got to get married or or it's over and you know i take that very seriously and as i say i really do care about your daughter and so i i want to be able to move forward and one of the things that i need to move forward is knowing about her childhood and if she won't tell me i i care about her enough and I care about you guys enough to come to the real source, which is her parents, you guys. So if you could tell me these things, I'd really appreciate it.
[2:04:02] Well, I don't know what this has got to do with you guys, but we're a regular family.
[2:04:10] Guys, I'm just asking about her childhood. I'm not asking you to give up the recipe for the secret sauce on a Big Mac or Coke, right? What's the problem here? I'm just asking about her childhood. I mean, we talk about everything else. You guys did a half-hour rant the other day on some politician. You can't give me a half an hour about her childhood? Like, what is going on that this is like... Why can't you just tell me?
[2:04:42] Well, what would be the use? We were just a regular family, you know? We get by, both work. She goes to school. Save some money, buy a house, go on vacation twice a year. So I've been seven years into this relationship.
[2:05:00] She had a childhood for 18 years, and I get 20 seconds of bland tapioca, nothing? I'm like, sorry, I need more. Okay, so what happened when you guys had disagreements, right? Because one of the things that my girlfriend has said, this is to you, my father-in-law, one of the things that my girlfriend has mentioned is that you at one point said that she was lucky she was small and slender otherwise you would have beaten the crap out of her, And I guess that's given me, that doesn't seem like regular family stuff to me. Again, I don't know what, you know, where you guys grew up or the neighborhood exactly, but that doesn't seem like regular family stuff to me. And that's the kind of stuff I need to find out about or learn more.
[2:05:45] Idle threats.
[2:05:46] I'm sorry?
[2:05:47] It was just idle threats. I would have never, it was just idle threats. I would have never raised a finger on her.
[2:05:53] So do you feel it's, because, you know, I mean, if I'm going to have kids with you guys as the in-laws, right? Do you feel that it's a fine or decent or good parenting tactic to threaten to beat the crap out of a kid?
[2:06:13] Well, it can't have been that bad, can it?
[2:06:18] Well, no, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, do you still think, like looking back upon it, and I understand there's the heat of the moment and we all say things we regret regret in life, looking back upon it, do you think that was good parenting to threaten to beat the crap out of your little girl?
[2:06:34] No, probably not. Sorry, what do you mean by probably not?
[2:06:38] You mean there are circumstances in which that is good parenting?
[2:06:43] No, but it's just, you know, things happen. Life is not that easy.
[2:06:48] So you're back to justifying it again, like you were stressed or it was difficult or whatever, right?
[2:06:53] Yeah.
[2:06:54] Okay. So I suppose if you're around my kids and you get stressed or upset, you could also threaten to beat the crap out of my children. Is that right? Like that's something that's on the table for you as acceptable parenting or grandparenting, I guess.
[2:07:06] Well, you know, times have changed. We don't do that anymore.
[2:07:11] So was it just that times have changed like it's a fashion thing? Or was it always kind of wrong to threaten to beat the crap out of your little girl?
[2:07:24] It was probably not right even then, but things have passed now. I can't go back in time and change it.
[2:07:33] What has that got to do with anything? I mean, you guys were really angry about an election, right? Do you remember that? Fucked up world and midwits and right? Now, can you go back in time and change the election? No, but you were still upset about it.
[2:07:50] So by your own standard it's fine to get upset about things that happened in the past right, I mean I just had to listen to half an hour of you guys railing against some stupid politician, half at the top of your lungs so that was in the past you can't change it but you were still upset so let's not do any of this nonsense about there's no point getting upset about these things in the past okay, so was it wrong for you to threaten to beat the crap, out of the woman I love of when she was a little girl fine i guess it was sorry i don't know if you genuinely doesn't sound like you genuinely believe that no so you don't genuinely want to get out of the situation no i understand that i mean i understand it's not comfortable when you're called out on bad behavior i i know that i understand that i mean if it's any consolation your daughter calls me on bad behavior from time to time.
[2:08:48] And I don't like it, but it's important, right? I mean, if your doctor says you should stop smoking, it's uncomfortable, but it's important, right? So, okay, so as far as I understand it, you don't really believe that it's wrong to threaten to beat the crap out of little kids, right? So that's behavior that is still on the table for you. I assume it's behavior that you won't apologize for, like you wouldn't turn to your daughter and say, I'm really sorry for saying that. There was no excuse.
[2:09:16] We can't apologize, but what does it make a difference now?
[2:09:22] Sorry, what do you mean? You don't think apologies... Apologies are always about things in the past, right? So are you saying that there's no context in which an apology is ever valid?
[2:09:39] No, but I mean, it's so far in the past, what difference can it make now?
[2:09:44] Well, what do you mean by difference? you're not even admitting that it's wrong.
[2:09:47] If you admit that it's wrong, the difference it will make is you get to see your grandkids. I tell you that. I mean, that's a difference it will make. Because if you don't accept that threatening to beat the crap out of a little kid is wrong, I'm not letting you around the grandkids.
[2:10:08] Well, she will, though.
[2:10:10] Not if I don't have grandkids with her. Not if I don't marry her. not if i don't have kids with her and if she's going to put my kids in the care custody and control of people who think it's fine to threaten to beat the crap out of them, then i'm not having kids with her of course i mean why would i wouldn't do that i wouldn't put that on my kids i see well if you're the kind of family if you're the kind of family that that prefers, I won't admit fault even for something that's clearly wrong. Like it's clearly wrong to threaten to beat the kids, beat the crap out of little kids because you never did it in public, right? So it's clearly wrong. So if you're so full of pride that you would rather have your bloodline end than admit you were wrong, then I'm entirely in the wrong household. Like I'm entirely in the wrong place. Like you'd rather your daughter not get married and have kids than admit you did something wrong, which is clearly and obviously wrong. You would rather sacrifice your daughter's happiness than admit you were wrong? How messed up is this place?
[2:11:33] And then I'd peace out out of that situation. Honestly, I would. Because that pause tells me everything I need to know. That you'd seriously consider that. Well, it might be the end of my bloodline. I don't get grandkids. My daughter is miserable. She just wasted seven years of her life. She might never have kids. On the other hand, I might have to apologize for being verbally abusive as a parent. Like, if that's something you'd even weigh? oh my god that that those perspectives and priorities are so far out of whack, i'd feel like i was in an asylum.
[2:12:16] You know if someone kidnaps your beloved dog and says it's going to cost you a dollar to get your dog back and you're like oh dollar, that's a lot man really a dollar can we start maybe let's start at a penny, like would that be kind of let's say they kidnap your kid and it's like it's it's 25 bucks to get your kid back and you're like oh 25 that's a lot i might have to go to the atm now that's let's let's start haggling, yes that's insane good to not i know we're role-playing so we don't know exactly how it would play out but i'm sure i mean you've known these people for for more than half a decade so So, but if somebody would be like, ooh, admit that I'm wrong about something that's clearly wrong, or not have my daughter get married and have kids. Oh, come on. They would, I mean, I'm sure you're right, but isn't that just kind of jaw-dropping?
[2:13:21] And that's why your girlfriend can't admit she's wrong.
[2:13:25] I mean, does she? I asked you earlier about responsibility.
[2:13:27] Ability no no she doesn't okay right most times she doesn't she might occasionally, when i put you know that i'm sorry and it's just one line and the woman is like all over the paper with the pencil right so and then it ends up with the man being sorry usually at the end it's kind of funny but yeah yeah that's normally when you try and push back it's more of a headache to push back than it is to just take it occasionally right i mean that's not the case with every i mean that's It's not the case in my marriage.
[2:13:57] We both admit fault when it's right. It's just easier. And it's honest. And everybody knows, like, if your girlfriend's responsible for something, she did something wrong, as we all do. Everybody knows it. We just do this weird dance where we pretend to not know it, you know, blindingly and clearly, right?
[2:14:16] Yeah.
[2:14:17] And the other thing, too, I mean, which you could mention and I didn't in the role play, but if they say, well, that's in the past, what does it matter? It's like, well, but you got angry at your daughter about things that were in the past, so that mattered.
[2:14:31] Yeah, that's true.
[2:14:32] And then if they say, well, it's so far in the past, what does it matter? It's like, well, then it should be easy to apologize because it doesn't matter.
[2:14:38] Yeah. That's another, whenever I get the, what, what, what does it matter? What's the difference argument to try to verse it back, but it never works. Like, oh, oh no, no, no, no.
[2:14:50] It works every time. Oh no, no, no. See, you have, okay. I'm going to be kind of annoying here. So I apologize for that. Oh no, it works every time. Because you think by it works, you mean the other person changes their mind and admits fault?
[2:15:07] Yeah.
[2:15:08] No, when you disprove someone, it works every time. How do I know? Because you now know that they won't admit fault.
[2:15:16] Yeah.
[2:15:17] Now, if you choose to still hang around with people who will never admit fault, who continue to blame you, who continue to abuse and diminish you, who continue to bully you and demand respect, and you say, well, my arguments aren't working. It's like they absolutely are. You're just not listening.
[2:15:32] Yeah I get your point dude you are such an energy killer what the hell is going on in this company, sorry Stefan I mean am I boring you I don't want to bore you trying to help you so what the hell what's going on, he's looking forward at the hard decision I'm going to have to make, no it's a hard decision to execute you.
[2:16:00] And I think it's an easy decision to make. I mean, in my view, I obviously can't tell you what to do, but in my view, it's like, just have conversations, right? Have conversations with your parents, have conversations with your girlfriend, have conversations with her parents.
[2:16:14] And if you have doubts.
[2:16:16] Then find out the facts, right?
[2:16:19] Yeah.
[2:16:20] Maybe they'll respond in a very positive way. Sorry, go ahead.
[2:16:23] I spoke about the ultimatum situation. It was absolutely lack of interest. Chris was off the charts, like, yeah, we'll marry her. Just make sure you get a green up.
[2:16:34] You talked to your parents about this ultimatum situation and the torture you had with regards to your girlfriend?
[2:16:41] Yeah, because I couldn't get around them. Well, I could get around them, but it was a family member's birthday.
[2:16:49] They said, how did that conversation go?
[2:16:52] Well, my father didn't comment, really.
[2:16:53] Your father didn't comment at all?
[2:16:55] My mother said, not that I recall. And my mother said, well, marry her. What's the problem? Just get a prenup.
[2:17:05] Oh, because of their money, right?
[2:17:08] Well, yeah, I guess I've got.
[2:17:10] Oh, you've got some money too. Okay.
[2:17:12] I've got some money too as well. Yeah.
[2:17:14] Okay. So how long, how many minutes did you spend on the conversation with them? How long did it occur?
[2:17:25] Five to be generous.
[2:17:27] Okay. So you're pushing 30. You've got the biggest decision of your life to make. And you get five minutes of which your father says nothing. And your mother just doesn't give you any. Just says, do it. Do this, right?
[2:17:39] Seconded her, my mother's get a prenup suggestion.
[2:17:45] Have your parents given you any particular instruction that's been helpful in life as a whole? Maybe some career stuff from your dad?
[2:17:54] Not really.
[2:17:55] So have they parented you? I mean, parenting isn't just feeding, right? You can get that from a prison.
[2:18:00] No.
[2:18:01] So are they your parents? Did they parent you?
[2:18:06] I wouldn't say so, no. No. No, they haven't. They've just treated me like a, I don't know, like a thing to be moved around the wrong path that they somehow carved or preconceived.
[2:18:21] Yeah, so it's funny because a lot of, I mean, dysfunctional parents, what they want, is they want to be treated as parents without actually having to gather and transmit wisdom to their children.
[2:18:41] Yeah. I've listened to your recent shows. I found them very helpful, more insightful.
[2:18:50] That's funny. I give you this big M-O-A-B, right? And you're like, yep.
[2:18:57] I know.
[2:18:58] Where are you emotionally, brother? I don't know where you are.
[2:19:01] You're in the fog somewhere. I'm half sobbing, yeah. I'm in the fog, half sobbing, sitting on the floor. Okay, so tell me.
[2:19:07] What are you thinking? What are you feeling? Tell me.
[2:19:09] Me i'm sad very very sad that i've been i don't know i'm still in this fucking fog, still fucking lost um with sort of everything that's sad what what do you what are you sad about i'm not disagreeing with the feeling i just want to know how it's the circumstance just just everything, just like all my life. You know that line from Blade Runner, like the tears lost in the rain?
[2:19:43] It's interesting that you would go to a robot.
[2:19:50] Yeah.
[2:19:51] That's your analogy.
[2:19:52] Well, like everything, like a construction, it's like a sandcastle, it's, how would you call it? The sand that's sliding through the fingers.
[2:20:06] Right.
[2:20:08] Yeah.
[2:20:09] Now, are you sad? Is that your feeling? Or is that your parents' feeling?
[2:20:18] Part of me is sad. Part of me is worried.
[2:20:22] Okay, what else do you feel when we talk about how you've been abused and exploited and continue to be so by your parents? I get the sadness. What else is there?
[2:20:30] Anger.
[2:20:31] Okay. Okay, so let's man it up a little and tell me about that.
[2:20:38] Yeah, I'd like to smash it all to pieces, all the shit. Leave it all behind me. Just be done with it. Right. Be done with it all. I'd like to get a table in front of me. I'd just like to grab the legs of the table and just smack it against the wall. Right.
[2:21:02] I get the sadness, I do, I understand the sadness, but the sadness weakens you. And the sadness may be there, may be there, to weaken you so that you don't do the necessary steps to secure the truth. Because the necessary steps that you're going to need to take to secure the truth are around assertiveness. and sadness does not fuel assertiveness anger when properly channeled can help fuel assertiveness.
[2:21:45] Right. And I feel...
[2:21:48] Sadness is anorexia. Anger is boundaries. Sorry, go ahead.
[2:21:54] No, I feel difficulties with setting boundaries and putting my feet down. Like whenever I start, I need to be like tap into my anger. Afterwards, I start to cry because it just upsets me too much.
[2:22:12] Well, that's because, you feel that your anger needs to have permission or needs to be accepted by others. That's not true at all.
[2:22:26] Interesting.
[2:22:28] You feel that your anger has to achieve a goal that coincides with your parents' wants and needs. I'm angry, so I'm going to tell my parents and they're going to change. Oh, no, they haven't changed. I guess anger is useless. What's the point? And then you go back to sadness and despair and a lack of energy and emotional emptiness because, you know, the anger just doesn't, it doesn't work. It doesn't get you what you want, right? But anger is not there for other people to agree with it. Anger is not measured, the value of anger is not measured by who agrees with you. Because we tend to get most angry at those who agree with us the least. So, we tend to get the most angry with those who agree with us the least. In other words, if you're moral you tend to get most angry at the immoral but the immoral are never going to listen to you so if anger is only valuable because people listen to you, then the more just your anger the more helpless you feel. Do you see what a trap that is?
[2:23:49] I see people say boundaries like well I try to set up these boundaries with my mother and she just walks right through them boundaries is the wrong word in my view The correct word is standards.
[2:24:06] Do you meet my standards? I want to have a relationship where I'm honest. I want to have a relationship where I can speak my mind. I want to have a relationship where I'm not biting my tongue. I want to have a relationship where people aren't manipulative and aggressive. These are my standards. Do you meet them? Boundaries requires agreement from the other person. Standards does not.
[2:24:27] Yeah. Standards are just my thing, and I can always choose to subtract myself from there.
[2:24:35] Well, I have these standards for how I'm going to spend my precious time in this world. If you don't meet those standards, are you helpless? It's like saying, well, I really want to have a family. I want to be a father. And then some 50-year-old woman contacts you and wants to date you, and you're like, well, I guess I have to date her. That's too bad. I really wanted to be a father.
[2:25:06] But that would be like.
[2:25:07] What are you talking about? You have a standard called, I want to be a father, so you're going to need a woman who can give you children. And if a woman can't give you children, then you don't marry her. That's a standard, right? or you say, I really want to become a father, and some 30-year-old woman contacts you and wants to date you, and she says, I'm resolutely against having children. You say, well, I guess I'll try and convince her, and I guess whether I become a father or not and have children is dependent upon whether I can convince this woman to have children. It's like, no. That's making yourself helpless, and meaning now you are the one who has to beg to have your needs met. You know, never beg to have your needs met. these are my needs they're legitimate I'm willing to reciprocate I've thought them through they're valid they're just they're fair they're right they're honest they're direct meet the standards or don't, If you have some good that you say, I'm not going to sell it for less than 500 bucks, and somebody offers you 200 bucks, you say no.
[2:26:16] Yep.
[2:26:18] Well, I've got to convince this person to spend 500 bucks. No, you don't. You just have to tell them, no, the price is 500. I'm not selling it for anything less. You're not helpless to get $500. You can lower your standards if you want.
[2:26:36] And you know with some of the people we've been talking about it's not just lowering your standards it's reversing your standards in other words you're not saying well you don't have to be totally virtuous or have much of a commitment to virtue to be in my life right, you say you can yell in my face that i owe you respect and you demand respect from me, you can continue to yell at me even in my late 20s and I'm like yeah when do we when do we call next let's call in two weeks, and at a time when I absolutely desperately need your advice you give me nothing, yeah absolutely nothing, in fairness I didn't really expect much either either.
[2:27:30] Okay. So that's your problem. The fuck are you doing in relationships where you expect to be treated like shit? You think if you have kids in this environment, and your kids see you being pushed around by your parents and pushed around by your wife and pushed around by her parents, you think they're going to respect you?
[2:27:56] No. Not at all.
[2:28:00] So then you're going to be left with either nothing or aggression. And that's how the cycle reproduces. You lower your standards to the point where your children don't respect you, and then you have to be aggressive with them to get them to comply.
[2:28:21] And then they lower their standards, and their children don't respect them, and then they have to use aggression to get the kids to comply. If you don't lower your standards, your kids will respect you, and you don't need aggression. question. I've never had to call my daughter names. I've never, I can't imagine raising my voice at her. I can't imagine hitting her. I can't imagine threatening her. It's inconceivable. And she's a great person. I mean, I've modeled that, right?
[2:28:58] Yeah. You know, the first one of the first streams I heard with you and your daughter, or I couldn't listen to them because they were too painful. The joy that was emanating from the voice of both the rent and play was too painful for me to listen. Now it's changed. Now I can't listen to them. But initially it was very hard. I couldn't, as I said, I couldn't listen to them. It was too painful.
[2:29:25] I'm glad for that.
[2:29:25] It's quite inspiring actually.
[2:29:26] I'm glad for that. I'm sorry that it was so painful but I'm glad that you kept with it.
[2:29:42] So what's the plan, i'm gonna listen to this a couple of times i need to talk to people i need to talk, i'm gonna talk to my girlfriend again obviously try and talk talk to her parents as well well, get this talk out.
[2:30:02] Have you, I appreciate, I think that's wise, have you ever done personal talk therapy or anything like that?
[2:30:10] Yes, I started when I was first hospitalized, but that was a terrible experience because they essentially were blaming me. And I was, it was pretty bad. I was used as sort of a scapegoat.
[2:30:25] Oh, sorry about that.
[2:30:26] Essentially what my parents wanted to hear, that's what the doctors said it was my fault i was being too perfectionistic yada yada aim lower you don't need to be the best you can be you can 80 20 yolo it, that was essentially the gist that i got from the first cycle of therapy then i've been in therapy for quite a while with another therapist i guess in hindsight and i was even at the time it wasn't really helpful i've now started a new cycle or after i've moved last year and that is being, quite powerful however nowhere near as powerful as this session has been today so stefan, oh well i'm i'm glad for that i'm glad for that and um yeah certainly when you're going through these kinds of actually being honest in in your life therapy can be very helpful because it can there can be quite a lot of resistance both within and without to any kind of acts. As you might have judged from the call today, I'm having recently quite a big issue with dissociation. I'm just completely spaced out. Right. I'm not sure if it's just stronger now or if I've always been that way.
[2:31:35] Just so you know what's happening, you have to depersonalize in order to survive around really selfish people. Because they don't stand contradiction. They don't stand independence. They don't stand questioning. So you have to, in a sense, cease to exist to be around them. You have to not have preferences. is you have to not have an identity. You have to not have a being. So when we start bringing criticisms up of, say, your parents, the response is to depersonalize because that's how you ended up not criticizing your parents as a kid, because criticizing your parents as a kid could have been very dangerous. I mean, it would have been very dangerous. So depersonalization, which I assume is associated with, in my opinion, obviously I don't know, but I think that that's probably will be associated with the anorexia. It's just in order to be in the world, I have to not be in the world. In order to live, I have to starve. In order to exist, I have to do the opposite of existence.
[2:32:30] Yeah.
[2:32:32] Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[2:32:36] I will, Stefan. I will.
[2:32:38] I'm very, very glad. And I really do appreciate the call today. Sorry, go ahead.
[2:32:42] Yeah. Thanks for arranging it. I know it's been quite a while in scheduling. you're very welcome and i'm very glad to have helped and and i'm absolutely sure you would get what you want in life um like like everyone it it's it's a bit of a ride to get there but it's well worth the trip and i i'm sure you'll do fantastic and very clean words all right take care brother take i'll hope to hear from you soon and thanks again for the call today all right thank you stefan bye-bye have a nice rest of your day.
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