MY SISTER THE EXOTIC DANCER - Transcript

In this episode, we explore the challenges faced by an exotic dancer and how it affects her feminist beliefs. We offer alternative options and address safety concerns while highlighting the importance of genuine connections and navigating family dynamics.

Chapters

0:00:00 Introduction and Concerns about Sister's Lifestyle
0:03:32 Sister's Path as a Dancer and Progressive Views
0:06:54 Sister's Income and Balancing Work as a Barista
0:09:58 Balancing Principles and Personal Opinions
0:18:12 Hobbies and Free Time of the Subject
0:21:06 The Informal Life of a Club Dancer
0:25:12 The Unfortunate Incident of Groping in the Club
0:30:00 The contradiction in her strong woman feminist beliefs
0:33:29 Corrupt behavior: verbal abuse vs. acquiescing to exploitation
0:38:11 Sister's Choices: Banal Advice and Polar Opposites
0:45:14 Creating Your Own Job Opportunities
0:49:09 Pursuing Higher Ambitions and Overcoming Setbacks
0:53:49 Confusion about Ambitions and Thinking for Yourself
0:54:53 Barriers and Nonsense in Pursuing Dreams
1:01:47 Concerns about pursuing dreams in dance
1:08:22 Apology and Commitment to Change
1:14:24 The importance of sharing concerns and potential dangers
1:18:03 The ripple effect of our choices on others
1:21:28 The Impact of Growing Up Without a Father
1:21:53 The Importance of Doing What's Best for Your Kids
1:28:06 The Impact of Money on Single Mothers
1:31:37 Seedy Environments and Contempt for Men
1:35:19 The consequences of neglecting children's needs
1:44:16 The Impact of a Troubled Sister on Relationships
1:47:29 Quality Woman's Perspective on Chaos and Drama
1:51:09 Choosing Between Past and Future
1:55:19 Gaining Empathy by Seeing Yourself from an Outside Perspective
1:55:38 Disappointment in Relationships and Expectations
1:57:23 Concerns about the impact on future children and family
1:57:56 The potential consequences of marrying into a troubled family
2:02:14 The Future and Perception of Exotic Dancers
2:03:54 The transformation of a woman's values and behavior
2:07:25 The consequences of prioritizing short-term sexual gratification
2:10:23 The Value of Having Conversations
2:14:22 Concerns about Video and Final Remarks

Long Summary

In this episode, we have a thought-provoking conversation about the caller's sister's career as an exotic dancer. I express confusion and concern about the sister's choice and question whether it aligns with her feminist beliefs. The caller defends his sister's passion for dancing, emphasizing that she sees it as a form of entertainment rather than exploitation.

I suggest that the sister could explore other opportunities to showcase her talents and offer assistance in finding grants and organizing professional shows. The caller, however, defends his sister's choices and expresses satisfaction with her current lifestyle.

I encourage the caller to consider pursuing higher-level dancing opportunities and emphasize the importance of not settling for less. We discuss the barriers of living in a particular city and the potential limitations of the caller's current job as a barista. I suggest considering a move to a city with more dance opportunities, but the caller mentions their connections and friends in their current city.

I argue that living in a certain place is a choice and should not be a barrier to pursuing dreams. I also discuss the time limit of the caller's current job as a go-go dancer due to age and suggest alternative career paths such as opening a club or creating a dance troupe.

We debate the definition of revealing clothing in dance and discuss the potential impact of the caller's career choices on her future. I express concern about potential regrets if the caller doesn't fully explore her talents and encourage her to aim higher and pursue her dream job.

In another part of the conversation, I address my sister directly, urging her to aim higher in her dance career instead of settling for a mediocre path. I apologize for any past behavior that may have come across as demeaning and express my desire to see her succeed.

I also express concern for my sister's safety, particularly in light of a recent incident of groping. I emphasize the importance of not accepting such violations as it perpetuates patriarchal and exploitative behaviors.

We continue discussing the importance of considering the impact of one's choices on others and delve into hypothetical scenarios to illustrate our points. We discuss the value of having a father or partner involved in parenting and challenge the idea of single motherhood as an ideal situation.

I emphasize that I care about my sister's well-being and want her to make choices that are best for her future children. We also discuss the emotional impact of our conversation and the need for empathy and understanding in our relationship.

I admit to some resentment towards my sister but emphasize my desire to support and see her succeed. We discuss the need for open communication and deep care in our relationship.

Later on, we receive a call from someone concerned about how their partner's liberal family will influence their future children. I, Stefan, emphasize that marrying into a family often means spending a significant amount of time with the spouse's family.

I suggest that distancing oneself from the partner's family might be an option and share my own experience. I advise the caller to prioritize their future over their family's past, as sacrificing a functional future for a dysfunctional past is not worth it.

The caller mentions sharing their concerns with someone at church, and the woman's disappointed reaction suggests potential disapproval. We discuss the potential impact of a dysfunctional family on future children and the judgment from both sets of parents.

I explain that the daughter in question may struggle with addiction or criminal activity, and the caller wonders if her situation will worsen in the future. We also delve into the challenges of the daughter's job as an exotic dancer, particularly how it may affect her attractiveness and sexual market value as she ages or if she becomes pregnant.

We question whether quality men in professions like medicine, law, or finance would want to pursue a relationship with an exotic dancer. We mention that women like Elizabeth Hurley and Christy Brinkley still look fantastic in their 50s and 60s, but it comes at a cost of expensive technology and the fact that they have already had their children.

We explore the idea that the woman in question may not fully realize the extent to which she is relying on her looks and is not considering the future.

We delve into the societal pressure on young, fit women to use their attractiveness to gain attention and the potential negative consequences of a hypersexualized society where stable, pair-bonded relationships and having children are less prioritized.

We explain how female beauty has been turned into high-value pair-bonding, but without the commitment of having children, as men invest their resources in things like e-girls instead of creating a family.

We highlight the importance of liking someone as well as being attracted to them in a long-term relationship and argue against the manipulative offer of receiving resources without providing children. However, we acknowledge that convincing someone who doesn't see a problem with this arrangement may be challenging.

The caller expresses optimism about having a serious conversation with their sister, seeking to encourage her to view their parents objectively and understand the potential trauma caused by their abusive father.

We also discuss how verbal abuse can make people more susceptible to certain ideologies and how it becomes normalized when experienced as unprocessed trauma.

The caller mentions a previous conversation that got corrupted and wasn't uploaded, and I express gratitude for their input and hope for improvement.

In response to the caller's request for a voice change to protect their family, I agree to make the change and restrict the conversation to donors-only. We say our goodbyes, and the call ends.

Tags

episode, concerns, caller's sister, exotic dancer, impact, feminist beliefs, alternative opportunities, safety concerns, family dynamics, genuine connections, relationships

Transcript

Introduction and Concerns about Sister's Lifestyle

Stefan:
[0:00] Well, it's nice to chat with you. And I guess the background of this is you

[0:03] wanted to talk about, or we were talking about in the show, we were talking about your sister.

Caller:
[0:08] Yeah, that's right. I was a bit concerned about her because she's like a dancer who wears quite revealing clothes and goes on a Friday and Sunday night to a nightclub or a bar and dances to loud music.
And I guess the men are really into that stuff. Can.

Stefan:
[0:29] You tell me, I mean, she's not on the call, so I guess I can hear from you about your childhood, your history, your upbringing, your parenting, your neighborhood, all that kind of good stuff.

Caller:
[0:40] Oh, yeah. We've talked before, by the way, back in September last year.
You probably don't remember it, but do you want me to go over it again? Yeah.

Stefan:
[0:52] Just a refresher, if you could.

Caller:
[0:54] Well uh my dad was like uh quite overbearing and would like um shout at us quite a bit and uh i think he was swearing while he was shouting and i think like criticizing us and uh calling us like saying that we were bad like um in different ways like saying we're stupid or, and um when i turned 18 like he called me the c word i i do remember that very clearly um, i i'm probably not allowed to say on the show what he called me and like i don't know i know yeah i don't remember things in great detail um but it's just a lot of swearing anger and him like swearing at other people and uh like in front of us and in the car getting frustrated other drivers not actually taking his anger out on the driver but taking his anger out on us.

[1:53] And, uh, I think I was, um, I was struggling quite a bit because of, uh, the health condition that we talked about before, but I'm, uh, slowly getting over that and forgetting about it as I was cured in late 2022.
And, uh, I was, yeah, um, the, um, I think it was very well provided for materially, like, uh, with the schooling was great schooling that we got sent to.
And, um, always looked after well, food wires and, uh, the best, the best, like he's well paid and he provided well for us. And, uh, so I'm appreciative of that.
And, uh, yeah, I think that's, I probably haven't spoken enough. No.

Stefan:
[2:42] That's fine. And what about your mom?

Caller:
[2:46] Uh, she was just quite like, um, middle of the road, just like going along with everything that my dad would do.
And trying to egg him on to shout at us. Trying to be like, oh, this person, he did this to me.
And then looking at my dad like, oh, what are you going to do about it?
And then not protesting when he would shout.
And he would get more riled up if it was my mom complaining about something to him.
Because he was always protective of his wife. And thinking like, oh, my wife's under attack by my children.
I've got to be extra angry now. Because it's not just me involved, it's my wife.

Stefan:
[3:25] Right right and your sister is younger is that right.

Caller:
[3:29] Yeah by two years right.

Sister's Path as a Dancer and Progressive Views

Stefan:
[3:32] And what's her history how did she end up in this life.

Caller:
[3:36] Uh well i think it's kind of misleading because she went to dance school and uh like left regular school at the age of 16 and um i think at dance school they make it out like oh um you could work in the west end as a dancer and uh that's what what we're gonna prepare you for or um other big dance places and um then when what they um mostly go into it seems like is dancing like as a cage dancer go-go dancer or uh, like doing shows in a bar um and because it's so competitive out there for dancers.

Stefan:
[4:17] Right so i guess the idea is you have to make some kind of living right and and this is the the way that it kind of plays out, right?

Caller:
[4:27] Yeah sadly and um yeah i think my sister is just really into all of this stuff like she's very um progressive like one of the most progressive people you could possibly be and uh i've been on her instagram and she's just completely open about everything like shows her wearing revealing clothes and um like probably a bikini is like as revealing as it gets shirts and for a top and uh barely covering her i don't know i don't want to be too graphic it's quite awkward talking about my sister in this way um no i get that but.

Stefan:
[5:01] I i appreciate your your caring for for her.

Caller:
[5:04] Uh yeah it's sad yeah i she was dancing with a drag queen on her instagram, and that's where i saw her a few weeks ago i uh i just couldn't believe it it's like Like, she's doing this to be the polar opposite of conservatives, and it's like, I must oppose the current thing that conservatives believe in.

Stefan:
[5:30] So, would she call what she does sex work, or would it be a different kind of conversation?

Caller:
[5:38] She just sees it like art, like a painter, or a decorator, and that's just her version of art.

Stefan:
[5:49] Right, okay. And she's been doing this for a couple of years, right?

Caller:
[5:54] And 2021.

Stefan:
[5:57] Right, okay. And, Does she have any, you said she has a boyfriend who lives with one of her female dancer friends, is that right?

Caller:
[6:12] She has a boyfriend and they're living together currently.
They're on a trip in India and they're just like traveling all over the place, sometimes by first class, sometimes by the regular trains and trying to experience India and all its variations.
And um she is uh um not living with her boyfriend just living with her friend and um yeah they her boyfriend seems more normal like more of a lab that you meet at festival and um got like psychotomy accent and um which is this pride because like her previous partners were pretty pretty crazy right.

Sister's Income and Balancing Work as a Barista

Stefan:
[6:54] And and has she ever talked to you about how much she makes what's the economics of her decisions.

Caller:
[6:59] Yeah i'm sure she makes quite a bit like uh but she's also working as a barista, so um i can't tell if it's like that much because um i guess she just wants to earn as much money as possible but i think she could like work just on friday sunday nights and that'd be enough for the whole week right.

Stefan:
[7:20] Okay okay and you said that she had done some drugs in the past but that she was clean for a while or what was remind me of that i.

Caller:
[7:31] Don't think she wants to tell me anymore because i was discouraging when she told me about her drug use and uh so i i've really no idea what she's up to with the drugs but uh she's told me that she's taken ketamine and cocaine before.

Stefan:
[7:47] Right okay and do you know if her boyfriend does that kind of stuff as well or is he not that way inclined i.

Caller:
[7:56] Don't know um i hope i think he's um less like of a druggie than previous partners right.

Stefan:
[8:04] Okay okay and she has no particular i mean she doesn't sound like she has has any moral issues with what she's doing right.

Caller:
[8:13] No no and if you pointed out like that you think it's morally wrong then that she would like get very aggressive i think and.

Stefan:
[8:23] What would she what would her argument be.

Caller:
[8:25] Uh she'd be like uh oh that's um such backwards thinking like you're just um I'm copying what people have done in the past because it's traditional.
And it's 2024, like getting the current year.
It's my body, my choice. I'm a liberated woman.

Stefan:
[8:50] Right.

Caller:
[8:50] Okay.

Stefan:
[8:51] Okay. Got it. And, you know, as far as, I don't know, like the morals of it go, much though I may dislike it in a way, I do have to stand on principle and say that it is not a violation of the non-aggression principle, right?
It is not violence, it is not fraud, I mean, so it's not evil.
We could argue that it's somewhat impractical, that it's not the highest use of our amazing capacities as human beings, but as far as the morality of it goes, it is all adult.
Adult is conceptual, it's not violent, it's not fraudulent. I mean, she's not promising these guys to be their girlfriends or anything.
So as far as I understand it, and, you know, you know that world better than I do. I mean, sorry, that sounds bad, but you know what I mean.
But it's not immoral in that way.
I don't know if we share. I mean, maybe there's something I'm missing, and I'm certainly happy to be instructed on this, but that would be my sort of first take on the issue.

Balancing Principles and Personal Opinions

Caller:
[9:59] Yeah, yeah. I'm pleased that she's not doing anything immoral, and I agree with that.
And that's partly why I haven't really tried to intervene because I have just thought about maybe like those principles and let them dictate my opinions and stuff too much even, where I'm like, well, it doesn't violate those principles, so I guess it's up to her.

Stefan:
[10:24] Well, I mean, no, that's not, I mean, I wouldn't go that far, right?
So for instance, if your daughter had a habit of, Sorry, if your daughter had a habit of walking around in a bikini in a really bad neighborhood at two o'clock in the morning, is that immoral?
No, she's not violating the non-aggression principle.
She's not defrauding people. She's not initiating the use of force.
But it's extremely unwise and it's going to lead to very bad things. Does that make sense?
Yeah yeah it's like drug use you know if the drug use does not violate the non-aggression principle particularly if you're single i mean if you have family who depends on you that's sort of a different matter but if you're single drug use does not violate the non-aggression principle, but it's very unwise right like not exercising and like getting fat and not exercising doesn't violate the non-aggression principle it's not evil but it's going to kill you smoking you know what i mean right so there's very unwise bad habits that are not specifically immoral, but you know you still have conversations with people about the wisdom and virtue of it if that makes sense yeah.

Caller:
[11:45] I think i'm put off doing that because uh she would just get very um defensive and just it'll drive a wedge between us and, I'm also affected by her life because one of her best friends is one of my housemates and, sadly I'm living in my childhood home that my parents have almost entirely left and they barely ever visit here and the temptation was too great to, stay here because it's like in a nice area and it's a three bedroom house and I uh but then the catch is that like one of my sister's best friends gets thrown in here because my parents want to make my sister happy.

Stefan:
[12:29] Right okay okay now, she doesn't have a problem with what she's doing in fact she takes pride because she's progressive and it's her body her choice she's a modern woman how dare you be stuck up with these old old historical prejudicial probably conservative and downright christian stodgy ethics and all the like so she she takes pride in what she's doing right yeah.

Caller:
[13:01] Like on her profile it says like uh queer or bisexual with those flags and she's got a rainbow flag that she flies outside her flat in the past.

Stefan:
[13:12] Oh so she herself is is gay or bisexual is that right.

Caller:
[13:17] She would probably say, yeah, pansexual. Right.

Stefan:
[13:21] Okay. So, yeah, so she doesn't have any issues with anything that she's doing.
In fact, she would have, and it's not neutral, right? It's not neutral.
Like if I say, I think reading is a good hobby, and someone comes along to me and says, I think that reading is really bad for you, or reading is a negative habit, it hurts your eyes, you get bad posture, you know, whatever, right?
Then I wouldn't be upset or offended or get angry.
I just probably wouldn't agree with them, and I like to read, but I wouldn't get angry at them, if that makes sense.
But the problem is not just that she's proud of what she's doing, but any criticism is coming from an immoral place.
It's coming from a, I don't know, some Christian fascist who wants to restrict her free use of her own body. Is it something like that?

Caller:
[14:13] Uh yeah yeah absolutely right okay uh but she seems like sad about it uh a little bit because i um went to the nightclub where she was dancing and i was participating i was kind of trying to impress her by being in the crowd and trying to show to her like oh look how crazy i can be and um then i was trying to talk to her as she came off the stage after dancing and she like tried not to talk to me and seemed to find it too embarrassing to talk to me and walked off.

Stefan:
[14:46] Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you were doing, trying to impress her by being crazy on the dance floor?

Caller:
[14:52] Yeah, because they make fun of me and my family a bit for being quite straight-laced and embracing suburban life.
We have a joke between us.
I guess it's meant to be the banter, but there's always a serious element to be triggered of.

Stefan:
[15:11] Okay all right so what is your relationship with your uh what are your relationships with your parents like at the moment.

Caller:
[15:19] Um it's very complex uh i think yeah i realized that i'm too dependent on my parents and uh anyone would see that like straight away uh because i like Like I work for recruitment for my dad and I also live with my dad in his house.
So this is like, it's not the right place to probably talk about that and to be like supported with that kind of decision because you're all about independence and parents.
And ironically, I've done the opposite despite listening to you quite a bit.

Stefan:
[15:55] And what are your, what's your parents view of what your sister is doing?

Caller:
[16:03] Um they're like uh saying oh it's fine like it's her choice and she's just dancing it's not harming anyone and it's quite surprising because they um they're quite straight laced in the past like they voted conservative and lived in suburbia for many years and sent us to private school and um they've just gone a bit uh crazy for the last like five years.

Stefan:
[16:30] Is right and what is she do you know what your sister's plans are i mean obviously she knows that there's not an infinite lifespan for this kind of uh milking your physicality right that times out after a certain amount of time does she do you know if she has any plans or is she living more in the moment she's.

Caller:
[16:49] Living in the moment certainly like uh playing it month by month and i've asked her about that before and she like doesn't think about the anything more more than a month in the future.

Stefan:
[16:58] And do you know if she has given you or has she given you any signs of particular intelligence does she enjoy complex poetry or classical novels or i don't know even movies with subtitles or something like does she have uh does she enjoy uh chess or complex crossword puzzles i mean has she given you i mean even just some sort of proxy signs of of intelligence that she might be in possession of.

Caller:
[17:30] Um yeah she's um good at debating and uh it makes me feel like i'm wrong sometimes because, she's um quite fierce with her arguing and also um hard to beat uh and um she did a personality test um i i guess you don't like personality tests from what i've heard in the past but um she was more intuitive than sensing and that's more like ideas focused uh so i thought that was and Stein.
And she didn't do that amazingly in her GCSE. She just got C's and B's.
Not terrible, not great either.

Hobbies and Free Time of the Subject

Stefan:
[18:12] And what about hobbies that she has? I assume she has a fair amount of free time.
You said she's dancing and then she's also doing the barista stuff at Starbucks.
I assume she has some spare or free time. Do you know what she does with her spare or free time?

Caller:
[18:27] Um one thing just listening to podcasts with uh social justice warriors talking to uh in our mind like giving your ideas and uh also watching like rupaul's drag race and the drag show reality show um so it seems like uh yeah i haven't actually learned about any intellectual endeavors uh beyond that and it because it seems like this progressive outlook is taking over her whole life, their emotional outlook and and when did she when did.

Stefan:
[19:07] She first start i guess dabbling in these kinds of ideas.

Caller:
[19:10] Uh when she was 18 or so.

Stefan:
[19:18] And did she go into it quickly? Was it slow? Did she have somebody who pulled her into this world? Was it educational?
How did she go into this world?
I mean, the idea was.

Caller:
[19:30] I imagine it was her friends around her who were influencing her and looking down on her.
Because she went to dance school and you couldn't be in a more left-wing environment.
Environment and so i assume it was her fellow students who brought her in and why.

Stefan:
[19:50] Why did she want to go to dance school did she dance from when she was a kid.

Caller:
[19:55] Yeah she's always been into dancing and um was really good at that and was like the main star and a lot of shows in her school that's got some real talent right yeah yeah and.

Stefan:
[20:09] The dancing that she does at the club is it like the cage dancing uh she's in like like a bikini or she's in revealing clothing or it's not stripping obviously but but tell me a little bit more about what she's doing.

Caller:
[20:22] Um she's dancing with a bikini and um like an air like thing that barely covers up her behind, um but it's kind of covering up and that would be as revealing as it gets and so no full nudity that i'm aware of but i have no idea like it could have happened yeah it wouldn't be like so like no top that's not i'm aware of okay.

Stefan:
[20:55] And where where in the club is she dancing dancing.

Caller:
[20:59] Uh she's dancing on the stage.

The Informal Life of a Club Dancer

Stefan:
[21:06] And is it a disco is that what she's like dancing in in a disco on a stage to encourage other people or to make the place look cool is that right.

Caller:
[21:15] Um yeah yeah and.

Stefan:
[21:21] Uh okay i got it and she does she get tips or does she get salary do you know.

Caller:
[21:31] It's quite informal it's like an uber dancer that'll phone her up short notice and try and get her to perform for a Friday or Saturday night.

Stefan:
[21:45] Well, yeah, but how does she get paid?

Caller:
[21:46] Just like... Oh, just through like how a regular worker would get paid who does pay as you earn.
Like just gets paid on a weekly basis.

Stefan:
[22:04] Okay, so it's just like it's a gig thing. It's not like guys are...
Sorry to talk about your sister like this, but it's not like guys are stuffing, notes into her bra or bikini or anything, right?

Caller:
[22:15] No thank god.

Stefan:
[22:16] Okay got it okay um and she has no friction against this lifestyle her boyfriend doesn't have any friction against this lifestyle and her friends encourage or think it's great to have this kind of lifestyle is that right yeah.

Caller:
[22:34] Absolutely my parents don't intervene they think think it's okay and.

Stefan:
[22:38] Is she a feminist yeah very strong i'm always trying to sort of figure it out, how and you've obviously i mean maybe you've talked about this stuff with her or not how is it that a feminist is okay with using your pure sexuality to make money, like that that seems kind of odd to me if that makes like i thought it was all about not not objectifying women.
I thought it was all about my mind, not my body.
I thought it was all about, you know, criticizing the male gaze and male lust and so on.
And I'm trying to square this circle and maybe there's a backdoor I don't know about, but isn't that a bit confusing?

Caller:
[23:22] She thinks that people shouldn't look at her in that sexual way, I guess.
And she's there for the entertainment and yeah she might be wearing revealing clothes but that's not for a sexual purpose I think, like she will wait so she's dancing barely.

Stefan:
[23:42] Covering her butt and I guess with like something like a bikini top I'm sort of getting I don't know Princess Leia, with Jabba the Hutt kind of vibes gold bikini stuff I mean I assume she has as a dancer I'm sure she has a great figure and so she's gyrating away in a, sexualized kind of dance barely wearing anything but she says it's not sexual is that right.

Caller:
[24:08] Um yeah she uh she wouldn't uh say it's like i never heard her say that her dancing is a sexual thing she would say well no dancing dancing.

Stefan:
[24:17] Is not necessarily i mean i think doing the charleston isn't isn't uh isn't like twerking but she's being.

Caller:
[24:25] Paid.

Stefan:
[24:25] To look and to move in a sexy fashion right.

Caller:
[24:30] Yeah i guess deep down she knows it's sexual and um i think her uh explanation is that she enjoys dancing and um she'll use any opportunity she can to dance and um that's just part of the job is to wear a veal clothe like she doesn't like it but that's what she's got to do because um that's like the only way to do what what she loves and uh so like um and if you criticize that then you're trying to put women down and so you must not like women if you're criticizing her trying to do what she enjoys so hang on there's a first.

Stefan:
[25:04] Bit of friction that i've heard that she doesn't like dancing this kind of way but it's the only way she can do what she loves.

The Unfortunate Incident of Groping in the Club

Caller:
[25:12] Yeah, well, she was complaining recently, but only when it got really extreme because she got groped.
It's really horrible, but she got groped in a club by an MP or an MP's friend.

Stefan:
[25:28] I assume you mean Minister of Parliament, not military police?
Or what does MP mean in this context?

Caller:
[25:34] Member of Parliament.

Stefan:
[25:36] Okay. So she got groped. is she not segregated or separated from the crowd in some manner? How did she end up getting grown?

Caller:
[25:44] That's how it is most of the time, but I think the boss was getting paid a lot by these guests, so they paid extra to get the dancers to go within touching distance, sadly.

Stefan:
[26:00] Sorry, I don't quite follow that. I don't know if you know the details, but if you could explain it a little more.

Caller:
[26:07] There was an MP he and his friends and they were spending a lot of money in the in the club and um they probably like said we'll give them more money if you bring the dancers closer to us and so that we can maybe touch them but it wouldn't have been that transparent i guess but it would be what they were thinking yeah um.

Stefan:
[26:28] No but she's a strong feminist woman with boundaries and so she just would have said no to that right because i would assume that her progressivism it's my body my my choice so she would have said no i don't get close to the patrons that's not the job right, i mean if you're a waitress and the guy says i want you to sit down and have a meal with me you'd say no i'm a waitress i bring you your food i don't have a meal with you i'm a dancer in the corner away from people i'm not going to come and dance on your lap or close to you or let you touch me because she's a strong feminist and it's her body her choice so wouldn't she say Again, I'm sort of trying to follow.
Wouldn't she say no to that?

Caller:
[27:11] She realizes that she would get fired if she said no, and then she wouldn't be able to carry on dancing.

Stefan:
[27:17] Well, then she would hate that because it's her body, her choice.
And as a strong feminist, wouldn't she highly object to a kind of Me Too thing like this?
Wouldn't she say, it's my body, my choice? So she did object, and then what did they say?

Caller:
[27:32] But she simply went along with it and went within touching distance.

Stefan:
[27:35] I'm sorry, so she objected and then what happened?

Caller:
[27:38] And then just went all with it.

Stefan:
[27:42] So she objected, but if she objected, I'm trying to figure out why would she go along with it?

Caller:
[27:51] Because she loves to dance. It's her passion.
And so if she didn't go along with it and then gets fired, then she wouldn't be able to do her hobby so much.
And then she'd be depressed and feel like she's not fulfilling her potential.

Stefan:
[28:10] Fulfilling her potential? dancing in a bikini in the corner of a club it's her potential look i mean you've seen her dance right now i'm sure she's a skilled dancer and this that and the other but come on man i i spent a lot of my youth in nightclubs club dancing is shit dancing it is like i mean i assume she's got a fairly small square she's got no choreographer she's got no partners she's not doing ballet up there is she uh.

Caller:
[28:38] No that's her dream deep down is to be like a ballerina and.

Stefan:
[28:43] No but she's not in the theater she's not doing the dancing that she wants to do right she's not this is not again i'm sure she's skilled in all of that but she's okay we just i mean indulge me for a second here so what area does she have like how big is the area she gets to dance in oh.

Caller:
[29:02] Uh tiny like it's mostly uh in the same place.

Stefan:
[29:06] Right, so she's just standing there, dipping down, shaking her butt, shaking her boobs.
I mean, this is not dancing, dancing, right? Do I have it wrong?

Caller:
[29:18] I think there's skill involved with it, because she was doing the same things as her other dancer, so they were skilled to be doing the same thing at the same time.

Stefan:
[29:30] Okay, so there's some coordination with the other dancer, but can you imagine going to see the ballet and they're allowed to dance in a six foot by six foot square yeah.

Caller:
[29:41] I i can't work it out really because um she posts things on her instagram that are revealing clothes as well so it's like um if she's uh against it deep down that's not the case actually because she wouldn't post things on her instagram.

The contradiction in her strong woman feminist beliefs

Stefan:
[30:00] Well and where is all of her strong woman nonsense when she's basically paid or she keeps her job if she allows guys to pour at her like i don't understand whether does she not have some doubts then about this strong woman feminist trademark crap if she's just like they're like you gotta let the the powerful guy pour you okay i mean that's half off a harem, isn't it?

Caller:
[30:22] Yeah, I guess the strength comes from being able to put up with people's rubbish and still being able to...

Stefan:
[30:30] No, no, just saying yes to being exploited is not feminist, is it?

Caller:
[30:35] No, but she would see herself as strong because she's being exploited and coming through that and not being harmed, seriously. Oh.

Stefan:
[30:46] So it's being a strong woman to be overridden by a man to do things that you find morally compromising and gross, like being in some guy's grabby reach, right?
So it's a feminist's strong, wonderful, amazing thing to go against your values and go against what you believe in and be dominated by a man into compromising your morals. That's her version of feminist?

Caller:
[31:17] She's not happy about what happened.

Stefan:
[31:19] No, no. Is that her version of feminist? Because I thought she was justifying it.

Caller:
[31:24] She is justifying Carrie on going to the same club after she gets groped at that club. Oh.

Stefan:
[31:30] So now it's a strong feminist to go back and work for guys who have no respect for you and demand that you, well, bully you or threaten you into violating your moral standards.
So now it's a strong feminist to go back to this environment and keep taking their money.
Is that right? I'm sorry, don't mean to laugh because it's serious stuff, but it's jaw-dropping.

Caller:
[31:52] Yeah, it's sad. To be devil's advocate, it's like she's in a war.
She's in a war zone and she's surviving.

Stefan:
[31:58] And she's not in a war zone that's bullshit I mean go to fuck me man go to Ukraine and watch guys carrying their own limbs to a field hospital and then this go-go dancer chick says she's in a war I mean come on.

Caller:
[32:14] I know not like a literal war zone I.

Stefan:
[32:17] Know it's not a literal war zone but even to use that as an analogy is incredibly offensive to actual soldiers who are getting drafted and getting their legs blown off.

Caller:
[32:26] Yeah i'm i'm sorry but um.

Stefan:
[32:29] No it's not you to apologize for you're just reporting on the facts but just seriously deranged yeah.

Caller:
[32:35] Yeah and um sometimes i feel like i'm as dysfunctional as her but.

Stefan:
[32:39] My job is well let's see i mean we're here to talk about her and and we'll get to that in a sec okay.

Caller:
[32:47] Yeah and um i think uh she just um wants to do whatever she wants to do and if he criticizes her she's a woman so therefore you're hating on women and being right.

Stefan:
[33:00] Okay so she has rendered herself immune from any criticism or any feedback that might have her change in other words she will call you a sexist and she will fight with you, but if a guy says go over there and let that guy grope you she's like okay So she'll fight against reasonable people trying to help her, but she'll acquiesce to scumbags trying to get her groped.

Corrupt behavior: verbal abuse vs. acquiescing to exploitation

Caller:
[33:29] Yeah, yeah.

Stefan:
[33:31] Does that not strike you as corrupt almost beyond words? If you're trying to help me, I'll call you names and I'll verbally abuse you.
But if you're bullying me into being groped, I'll do it, I'll grumble, and then I'll come right back the next night.
I won't call you, she won't call him a sexist pig and slap his face and walk out, right?
Uh no right so she only verbally abuses good people who want to help her not bad people who are exploiting her.

Caller:
[34:06] Um she's not so much uh verbally abusive um.

Stefan:
[34:11] Calling someone a woman hater and a sexist that is verbally abusive absolutely okay i mean tell me if i'm wrong wrong she.

Caller:
[34:21] Doesn't swear normally.

Stefan:
[34:22] No i don't the swearing is not swearing is is unjust condemnation sorry uh verbal abuse is unjust condemn unjust and blanket condemnation, but it doesn't mean swearing like if you've got a kid who does something not too smart and you say well you're just stupid through and through did i swear nope it's verbally abusive though it's an unjust blanket condemnation yeah.

Caller:
[34:47] 100 and um she it gets very sensitive about um things like recently i was saying like it's sad because um people in india have no choice but to um defecate on the streets in some poor areas and then she found that funny and uh it's like in her mind she was looking at me like i'm a neo-colonializer.

Stefan:
[35:09] What she found that funny or you found that funny?

Caller:
[35:12] She found that funny because I was trying to express real sympathy about people being impoverished like extremely that we can't relate to in the UK and she was thinking like, oh, he's looking down on people because they're from a different country. Right.

Stefan:
[35:30] So she'll attack her brother for having sympathy for poor people but she'll go back and take the greasy dollar bills handed to her by a club owner who demands she gets groped.
I mean, honestly, I've got to tell you, this is absolutely stomach-turning that she would attack you and yet bow down before the club owner peddling her flesh.

Caller:
[35:56] It makes me not want to hang out with her because I'm always on eggshells.
And same with her best friend uh her best friend who lives with me um i say like oh this coffee shop um it's probably nicer here because they make more money in this area than in this other area so they put more money into the refurbishment just try to go to like an economic argument that's pretty middle of the road and then he he starts smiling and like i'm trying to make a serious argument here sorry and smiling who's he um the housemate i live with i.

Stefan:
[36:29] Thought wasn't that a a woman uh.

Caller:
[36:32] No i live with a man in the house oh.

Stefan:
[36:37] I'm so sorry where is your sister's best friend living.

Caller:
[36:40] Um in my house ah.

Stefan:
[36:45] Okay so you live with a man and a woman uh.

Caller:
[36:49] Just one man who is uh my sister's best friend oh.

Stefan:
[36:53] I'm so sorry your sister's best friend is a man not her boyfriend friend uh.

Caller:
[36:58] Well this this person lives in my house is gay so um okay got it i think.

Stefan:
[37:06] Okay all right so.

Caller:
[37:08] The the roommate.

Stefan:
[37:09] Your roommate um smiles when you're making basically middle of the road economic argument.

Caller:
[37:17] Yeah it's like the mention of money is uh a bit impolite and uh it makes me look like a a capitalist or always politicizing everything.

Stefan:
[37:27] Okay. Are they socialists or communists or leftists politically?

Caller:
[37:34] He's left-wing, believes in a big deficit spending and maybe he protects his name.

Stefan:
[37:41] Okay. And your sister?

Caller:
[37:45] She's very left-wing and believes in Jeremy Corbyn. That's probably be like where she is politically but.

Stefan:
[37:54] More.

Caller:
[37:55] Socially liberal than jerry corbyn.

Stefan:
[37:57] Got it okay okay and when was the last time that you remember that your sister listened to any kind of advice from you.

Sister's Choices: Banal Advice and Polar Opposites

Caller:
[38:11] I think she's never explicitly followed my advice, apart from quite banal things like, oh, this TV show is great, let's watch this.

Stefan:
[38:22] No, yeah, any kind of life advice.

Caller:
[38:27] No, and she talks often about how different we are and sees ourselves as polar opposites.

Stefan:
[38:35] Okay. Now, I'd like to try something, if that's all right with you, of course you can say yes or no i'm not a club owner uh i'm not gonna fire you but i'd like to try getting a sense of your sister's mindset so if you could play her and i could sort of play you ish and and i could sort of get a sense of oh you said she's good at debating and so on and i'm sure you've had these conversations with her so if if if that's all right with you can we we can give give that a try yeah.

Caller:
[39:07] It's because she's so sure of herself but that's part of her.

Stefan:
[39:10] Yeah yeah no i get it it's very aggressive um okay so if i were to say listen sis i love you and and i care about you i want you to be happy in the long run i don't particularly like nor do i think it's particularly particularly great for you to you know wear this highly sexualized clothing and do this sort of sexualized dance in in a club i i think it's you know you've got a fine mind you're a great debater there's lots of things you could do and basically flashing your body for money you know you have the right to do it obviously it's not immoral for you to do it this is not a good or evil thing or anything like that but i just i think it's risky i think it as you found out with the groping like it can be risky it can be a little dangerous you could end up i don't know with some stalker or something like that uh and i just feel like you know you're such a wonderful dancer that it just feels like such a misuse of your abilities i mean.

[40:15] If you save up some money, you could put on a dance show, right?
You could get a dance troupe going, or maybe you could apply for grants from the Arts Council or something and put on a dance, or, you know, there are dance troupes all over the world that live on something or someone, right? Right.
So I just I feel like this is kind of holding you down from your potential because it's, you know, kind of dancing in a way, although it's not much dancing because you're really stuck on that tiny little square.
And I just I would love to see you do something.
You know, some modern dance thing, some maybe some ballet style thing or some Tyler Twop thing or like whatever is going on that that would be a real use of your talents, because, you know, like doing this kind of stuff for a couple of years now.
It's consuming a fairly big chunk of your capacity to do dance.
And, you know, I'd love to help you try and apply for grants.
I'd love to help you figure out how to do it so that, you know, you're not kind of in a bikini in the corner of a nightclub getting paid for looking sexy rather than actually going out.
And, you know, as I know you can do, and as I'd love to see you do, create something really beautiful with the amazing talents that you have.

Caller:
[41:33] Thank you but i've tried that on instagram i've posted my own videos on instagram and it doesn't make much money i've uh ventured outside of that arena of the noi club.

Stefan:
[41:46] Well i mean i get that but i'm not talking i didn't right i didn't talk about instagram i mean there's there's ways of of being able to put on dance shows right i mean i know lots of them for for instance i know that there are a lot a lot of amateur acting groups like that that put on plays and so on like i just i guess i'm kind of it's troubling me because i know what you're capable of like this you you were winning dance competitions all over the place you were the principal dancer, you know grinding away in a bikini in the corner of a nightclub i know that that's not what you want to be doing and i i think unfortunately it's kind of got you down in that area like it's good good enough.
It's kind of like a little bit of dancing-ish, and it makes some money, but this is not what you wanted out of your dance career. You want something better.
And I don't see you going on auditions for dances.
And I do know something about this kind of world.
I would love to help you apply for some grants, or we could put ads on to get dancers, or I'm sure you know dancers.
And we could save up some money, get a real choreographer, rent a place, sell some some tickets, you know, like put on a show, because this isn't using really much of the talents that you have, and I just would really love to see you do something great.

Caller:
[43:11] Um i um well i enjoy what i do most of the time i uh i make money easily from it and um i uh i think it's fine because uh it's just dancing with veal and cloves like it's not gonna hurt anyone well.

Stefan:
[43:28] But no i mean and listen i'm sorry i'm sorry to interrupt i as i said i'm not accusing of hurting anyone except maybe your own potential right maybe right because look i mean you didn't have as you like i grew up with you sis like you didn't have as your dream shaking your butt in a bikini bottom in the corner of a nightclub right that that was not your dream that's not what you got up early for sacrifice got all those injuries did all like that's not you did it because Because you wanted to actually do something beautiful with dance.
And yeah, you're not hurting anyone. I accept that. And yes, you get paid.
But it's not very elevated compared to what you can do.
You know, like if you're a beautiful opera singer and you just go and do some basement karaoke, that's really not on the level of your skills.
And you have wonderful capacities with regards to dance.
I just think you kind of got stuck. Like, you took a side road here, and this was supposed to be just a temporary thing. It's become like a permanent thing.
And I'm just telling you that it is far below the capacities to create beauty with your dancing that you're capable of. I know that because I've seen you dance for years.

Caller:
[44:52] Um i am i've tried applying for jobs in the past like um the theaters and i haven't been accepted so um this is all i can do with dancing because i've tried i've applied for every dancing job you can imagine and then create yours that's what i'm saying create create.

Creating Your Own Job Opportunities

Stefan:
[45:14] Your own like if you can't if you can't get a job you make a job right this is pretty pretty common.
Entrepreneurs do this all the time, right? If you can't get a job, you make a job.
And I would be thrilled to help you out.
And we can apply for grants and we can rent a space. If you can't get hired as an actor, this is quite common.
People like Eric Boghossian, this is like an older actor, but I've read at least a dozen times, actors who say, I can't get any acting work.
So what they do is they come up with their own plays they come up with their own one-man shows or they do stand-up or like they do something if you can't get a job you make a job and you know i'm i'm at your disposal because i know what you're capable of and you know or or if you can't get a job you have to figure out why like is there something that you're doing that is caused like maybe the dancing that you've done in clubs has interfered with your capacity to do better dancing because you're just standing on one it's basically a postage stamp for like a couple of hours a night and you know i mean when was the last time you took dance classes or when was the last time you expanded your uh your skill set in in the realm of dance so maybe you're getting stuck unable to progress because you're doing this kind of stuff.

Caller:
[46:37] I enjoy doing the exotic dancing the most. I feel the most liberated doing that.
And also when I've tried to create my own stuff, I haven't gone viral on social media.
And so it shows that people don't really like my dancing that much.

Stefan:
[46:58] How many of your dances have you released on social media?
And I don't just mean you film yourself, but you really do some choreography.
Maybe you get some friends to do it. You make good money, right?
And it's not like your living expenses are huge.
So how many, where you get a good choreographer, you get maybe a friend to do the dance with you, and you go out and get it properly filmed.
And how many of those have you done?

Caller:
[47:26] I've done a few but um they have been like moderately well liked uh maybe a few thousand views on youtube and um so i i don't think it's gonna take off massively um i um i've typed customer myself as an exotic dancer so and that's very clear to see so maybe that was sorry i'm not I'm not sure what you mean when you.

Stefan:
[47:54] Say you've typecast yourself as, oh, do you mean like the moves that you've been doing for the last couple of years, they show up in the video so you look like an exotic dancer?

Caller:
[48:04] Yeah, like if I applied for a role as a ballerina, then they would look through my social media and they would think like I'm not the right person.
And also I've made my body in a certain way that might exclude me from a lot of different types of dancing because I have a big snake tattoo on my chest and I have nose piercings that I wear in the past.
But I can take the nose piercing out, but there's that snake tattoo that can't be gotten rid of easily.

Stefan:
[48:36] Well, no, but you can use AI to remove that in the dance video, right, if you wanted to do it that way. So, I mean, is that it?

[48:47] Look, if you genuinely, if this is what you want to do, and you're happy with it, and you don't want to do anything else in dance other than, I don't know, gyrate in the corner of a nightclub for the next five years, okay, listen, I'm not going to push you.
If you want to do something more or do something better, I would love to facilitate it.

Pursuing Higher Ambitions and Overcoming Setbacks

[49:10] If you don't, and you're perfectly content with this, I mean, it breaks my heart a little because I know for a fact that you're capable of much better stuff, much more complicated stuff.
And I personally think you keep trying. You know, I mean, the idea that you succeed the first time you try something or the second or the third or the fifth, like, you know that there are actors out there.
I think George Clooney was one, like for five years, he didn't get cast and he just kept going to auditions.
And so, you know, I mean, the band Queen, they didn't make any money for the first, I don't know, seven years of being a band.
And, you know, Freddie Mercury, one of the world's greatest entertainers, was living in a moldy apartment, you know, after they had three albums.
And so I'm, you know, and isn't this sort of strong, you know, strong feminist stuff?
You just, you keep trying. You don't just try a couple of things and it doesn't work and you just give up. Isn't that right?

Caller:
[50:08] Um i'm happy with the lifestyle but i'm not happy with the lifestyle because i am i'm bombarded with intrusive thoughts and i had a panic attack early last year on the train and then i was staying in bed for a month uh after taking sertraline trying it out for a month um after taking so, sertraline uh type of antidepressant i think okay uh but that's nothing to do with my lifestyle style that's just uh bad luck i guess and wait sorry is.

Stefan:
[50:41] Your theory that a panic attack is just bad luck.

Caller:
[50:43] Yeah i guess some people are destined to have panic attacks and other people aren't you.

Stefan:
[50:50] Don't think it has anything to do with maybe that you're missing out a little bit on or a lot on your potential.

Caller:
[50:55] Uh no because um i'm fulfilling my potential because uh i enjoy exotic dancing And I love the liberal environment.
I love the liberal, I love the, I mean, this is my culture.
This is, I feel like I'm going against my culture that I'm in by embracing other forms of conservative dancing.

Stefan:
[51:29] Sorry, that just seems like a bunch of word salad.
I mean, I grew up with you. When you were a dancer, you didn't say, I can't wait to dance on a postage stamp in the corner of the club for the rest of my life.
I mean, do you remember? What did you say you wanted? What did you want when you were a kid, when you were in the dance world?

Caller:
[51:50] I i did start off being more of a conservative dancer but i think that's because i couldn't think for myself and um as i became more of a like revealing clothe wearing dancer um that's as i got older that's what happened and uh i started to think for myself more and um i've been heading in this direction for many many years so um it just makes sense that this is what I'm destined for for life.

Stefan:
[52:19] Oh, so when you had higher ambitions, you weren't thinking for yourself.
And now, look, clearly you have lower ambitions now than you did in the past, right?
Like in the past, you wanted to be a proper dancer, not a go-go dancer, right? Not an exotic dancer.
And I know the word proper is a little inflammatory, but let's, you know, you weren't aiming for this.
So is your thesis that in the past, when you had higher ambitions of real art, Because what you do in the club is not real art. We can agree on that.
You're shaking your butt on a postage stamp in a sexualized manner.
And look, I know it's weird for your brother to talk about it, but that's not high art.
People don't really pay to watch you. You're just kind of a backdrop.
You're like an extra. So, are you saying that when you thought less for yourself, you had more lofty and higher, actually, artistic ambitions?
But now that you think for yourself, your ambitions have collapsed to shaking your butt in the corner of a crowded nightclub?

Caller:
[53:26] My ambitions have reduced, and that's because I keep getting turned down for those big dancing jobs, but the trajectory is still correct and still proper, and I'm going with what I've done before, and I'm heading in more of a liberal direction, so it makes sense.

Confusion about Ambitions and Thinking for Yourself

Stefan:
[53:49] Sorry, sorry, you just kind of confused me. I thought you said that you're doing what you do now because you're thinking for yourself.
And then I said, are you trying to tell me that you had higher and artistic ambitions when you weren't thinking for yourself, but now you're in the corner of a nightclub you are?
And then you kind of changed your tune. You said, well, I couldn't get those jobs, right?
So do you want, like, if somebody said to you, you can now be the principal dancer in some, doesn't have to be ballet, some modern dance troupe or something like that.
If somebody said to you, you can now be a principal dancer, would you say, no, I'm thinking for myself, I'd rather stay in the corner of the nightclub?

Caller:
[54:30] No, I would accept that and I'd be overjoyed. Okay.

Stefan:
[54:33] So that's what you want.

Caller:
[54:35] Yeah.

Stefan:
[54:36] So why are you settling for this if that's what you want? Why aren't you trying more?

Caller:
[54:42] I live in and um london is a long way away and that's where the biggest jobs would be the dancing.

Barriers and Nonsense in Pursuing Dreams

Stefan:
[54:53] So what it's moving that's the big barrier and.

Caller:
[54:58] Also and also because i'm a barista in these coffee shops.

Stefan:
[55:02] So um there are coffee shops in london i've seen them okay let's let's i don't know what's going on here but this is just a bunch of nonsense if somebody okay let's say Somebody calls you up and says, hey, I see your YouTube videos. You'd be perfect.
And would you say, no, I can't come and be the principal dancer in this modern dance troupe because I have a Starbucks job and I live in...
You'd move, wouldn't you?

Caller:
[55:26] And all my friends live near him as well. Okay.

Stefan:
[55:30] So you wouldn't take a job in London if it was the job of your dreams. Is that right?

Caller:
[55:35] I would take the job, you know.

Stefan:
[55:37] Okay, so this is all nonsense, what you're saying. These barriers, right? so saying well i can't because it's in london well you would if it was in london right.

Caller:
[55:46] Yeah but it makes it harder to audition when i'm stuck in well.

Stefan:
[55:50] You're not stuck in it's a choice to live there right yeah.

Caller:
[55:54] Yeah it's just i've been there for so many years so i've built up so many good connections and.

Stefan:
[55:58] Good connections what do you mean good connections what are your good they're not good connections to getting you better dance jobs right right and um that sounds like That sounds like a drug thing.
I get good connections for a great drug. I know it's not, but it just sounds a bit more sinister, right?

Caller:
[56:16] Yeah, they're good connections because I enjoy hanging out with them on the night out.

Stefan:
[56:21] Right. Right.
So, and, you know, just, and I'm just trying to look out for you.
Maybe I'm doing it totally the wrong way. And I'm, I'm with all humility.
I really apologize if I'm coming at a call across negative.
I'm, I'm very enthusiastic for your potential and I'm, I hate to be an annoying guy.
Maybe I am older brother stuff and all, but I'm a little bit further down the road of life and I guess I have some concern about.
What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Sorry, go ahead.

Caller:
[56:55] Oh, I understand. You're only two years older than me.

Stefan:
[57:00] That's why I said a little ways. A little ways. A little ways.
But I guess I'm, I do this for myself.
I don't know if you do or don't. I do this for myself and I'm like, okay, five years out, 10 years out, what do I want my life to look like?
Right, five years. Because, you know, we do have to plan a little bit.
You're in a job arb which has a timeout right you're unlikely to be doing this when you're 35 right i.

Caller:
[57:28] Think that's a bit sexist actually well.

Stefan:
[57:31] I mean you can say it's a sexist but i mean this kind of a fact isn't it i mean that that that go-go dancers do kind of age i mean okay let me ask you this how many go-go dancers in their 40s have you met who work at the clubs um.

Caller:
[57:45] I don't remember meeting anyone who was in their 40s but we're going to create our own club and that will be good for middle-aged people.

Stefan:
[57:55] I'm sorry you're going to create your own club yeah.

Caller:
[57:59] Me and my friends the plans to create our own one and we clamp down on uh groping a lot more and wouldn't let the dancers be in touching distance for example.

Stefan:
[58:07] But hang on so if you have the money if you have the money and entrepreneurial ambition to create your own club wouldn't you pour that into creating a dance troupe instead.

Caller:
[58:18] Uh i uh yeah i guess the dance troupe would be um but i've uh tried being a dance trouper and uh, i haven't really got much success from that like uh i've done choreographed dancing on the streets and um it got videoed and then just led to like a few thousand views and not that great.

Stefan:
[58:42] Yeah i'm not talking about dancing on streets like i said creating it like if you've got enough enough money to create a nightclub, which is quite a lot of money, right?
You've got to get your licenses and you've got to get your rent and you've got to get your bounces and you've got to get your liquor and you've got to get your lighting rig and you've got to pay rent and you've got to pay property tax. That's a lot of money.
So if you've got enough money to start a nightclub, wouldn't you have enough money to start a dance troupe and really give that a shot?

Caller:
[59:10] Yeah, good point. I never thought about that before. um yeah well so you mean dancing in a studio and recording it and maybe there's storylines of dancing.

Stefan:
[59:19] Well i don't i'm not a dancer so i don't know but i know that there are dance shows all over the world and people make money in dance shows and you know they they're not in bikinis, they do like they do artistic dance not this sexualized stuff right and.

Caller:
[59:37] What do you think is too revealing like uh it's a bit subjective i don't know why you have these uh such rigid lines put up for a revealing or uh too revealing or not really enough well.

Stefan:
[59:48] I suppose that if the purpose of the dance is to provoke sexual excitement or to look sexy and that's the primary purpose then it's not exactly the most artistic dance if that makes sense.

Caller:
[1:00:05] But when I'm wearing most revealing clothes, it's not because I want to sexually excite men, it's for my own enjoyment.

Stefan:
[1:00:16] I'm sorry, are you not aware that men looking at a barely clad, attractive female body will often feel lust? You know that, right?

Caller:
[1:00:25] Yeah, but it makes me feel good. It makes me feel valued.

Stefan:
[1:00:30] Okay, but so if you're saying you're just doing it for yourself, but you also want to feel valued and lusted after by men, then it's not just for yourself, right? It's also to gain the interest of the men, right?

Caller:
[1:00:41] Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Stefan:
[1:00:42] And listen, I'm not, I mean, I get that's part of, you know, if women lusted after me in that way, or if I looked that good in a pair of shorts, I'd probably be quite happy about it too.
So I'm not sort of trying to come down on you about that.
But I would suppose it's not in particular how much skin you're showing.
It's like, what's the purpose? It's like the difference between a movie that has a sex scene and pornography, like the purpose of pornography is sexual excitement.
The sex scene in a movie might have some artistic merit or whatever it is, right? Right.
So it would be not so much whether you're showing skin or not.
It's what's the purpose of the dance is the purpose of the dance to elevate people's sense of beauty in the world and to tell them a story through dance.
Or is it to sexually stimulate them through flesh and, you know, twerking?
Oh, I don't know. I don't know whatever the term would be. But I would like I would like to see you move more towards your earlier artistic ambitions.
And I think there's ways to do that or at least ways to focus on it.
And I just, you know, I hate to see you giving up on your dreams. I really do.

Concerns about pursuing dreams in dance

[1:01:47] It burns at my heart because I've seen what you can do. I've seen the talent that you have.
And I think that you are, I wouldn't say wasting your talents because that's unfair, right? Because you are making money and you say you enjoy it.
But I also worry about your hearing, but that's, you know, I hope you're wearing ear protection in a nightclub for hours, But I hate to see you giving up on what your dreams were, because they're difficult, right?
But they're not going to be easier down the road, right?
I mean, if you spend another three years doing this dance stuff, then you've got more bad habits, you've got less skill in other forms of dance, and you're older, right?
So, you know, dancers have a problem aging out.
There aren't many ballet dancers in their 40s either, right?
Because it's pretty tough on the feet, the heels, the knees, the hips, you name it, right?
So I guess that's my sort of issue is that I just, look, if we have this conversation, look, I respect your choice either way, right?
If we have this conversation and you say, no, it is my highest ambition to be a go-go dancer, and you can look me in the eye and say that, okay, you know, hey, I'm not going to try and possess you and tell you what you should or shouldn't like.
I just don't want you down the road. And this is part of me just looking out for you, as I hope if you see me making mistakes, you'll look out for me, or maybe making mistakes.

[1:03:07] I don't want you to look back and say I could have been a really great dancer and I chose to, shake my butt in a bikini in a nightclub for years instead and i think that kind of regret can be pretty tough and and maybe maybe that has a little bit to do with the panic attack or whatever i don't know obviously but it to me in my mind it could possibly yeah.

Caller:
[1:03:28] It might be because my friends are at a similar level in their career to me and um it's like if i go on to be a great dancer then then they'll be jealous.
So, yeah, holding me back.

Stefan:
[1:03:44] I hate to say it, I wouldn't call what you have a career.

Caller:
[1:03:51] Right?

Stefan:
[1:03:51] I mean, it's being a go-go dancer, which, again, I only...
Look, if you were just some girl who hadn't studied dance for years, who didn't have all this potential, who couldn't do the wonderful things that I've seen you do in the dance world, I'd be like, okay, you know, Now, I think it's not particularly elevated.
It's not a particularly great way because it's all about your body.
And I know how smart you are.
I mean, you're a great debater. And I find myself stymied half the time with the things that you say. And it really helps provoke my thought. And I appreciate that.
But it is all about the flesh and not the mind.
And you have such a great mind that I think just having guys lust after your flesh is a bit of a – it's aiming a bit low compared to what you're capable of. But if you don't want, but you said if you got the job of your dreams, you'd be overjoyed, right?

[1:04:38] And if I can shake, maybe shake you up a little in terms of what you think you're capable of, and then you can aim at that.
That look if you aim at it and really really try like for like for whatever magic reason there's just some invisible demon between you and the job of your dreams or whatever but if you really try you know like you take the training um you develop the contacts maybe you get that snake tattoo removed i'm not sure that was ever a really great idea but you know we all make impulsive mistakes when we're younger but if you really pursue this and it doesn't work out you won't have regrets but my concern is that you're going to look back and say I could have done it I could have tried more, I could have done more I just put out a couple of videos.

[1:05:22] And then went back to the nightclub and I think there's potential for a lot of regret there and you know I'm just trying to look out for you and if there won't be regret and you think this is the best you can do and this is all you want to do.

[1:05:34] I have a tough time accepting that just because I grew up with you and I know how much you love dance and how much you'd love to do more with dance than being in the corner of a nightclub I just, want you to try more if if you succeed fantastic then then you you get your dreams if you don't succeed at least you won't look back and say i could have tried more if that makes sense.

Caller:
[1:05:57] Yeah i think i think you're right um i don't know why i have been procrastinating and not seizing my dreams but trying to see my dream well.

Stefan:
[1:06:07] You're terrified of rejection like we all are i mean i'm sitting here trying to have this conversation with you and my heart was pounding because i'm I'm like, oh, no, what if this goes totally wrong and she gets really mad at me and calls me a bad guy and a sexist and I hate women because I want you to do better.
That's so isn't it like we're all scared of rejection and it's easy to hide out in something that's OK rather than aim for something that's really great.
I'm so sorry. I totally interrupted you. That was totally rude, sis. Sorry. Go on.

Caller:
[1:06:33] I understand. And I think it's because I've been so defensive and so like angry when people try and question my choices that I haven't been able to get as good advice.
And so I've been like an emperor with no clothes based on my attitude for empress.

Stefan:
[1:06:57] So and I think listen I think I've been guilty of this too and I really do want to apologize for this in that I think people have come at you like to put you down, Whereas in my heart of hearts, what I want to do is, it sounds stupid, and I get the patriarchal crap at this, like, I just want to elevate you like I'm the man and I can do that.
Like, that's not what I mean, because I know that I'm not as progressive as you are, but even I can smell the patriarchal caveman sweat coming off that nonsense, right?
But it's like, if I can encourage you to explore your potential, and it's not just potential, because I've seen it. I saw so many of your dance shows growing up, right? So I can see that. I know that.
And to me, I don't want to put you down for what you're doing, but I do want to kind of pull your eyes up to the sky and say, look, maybe there's a mountain we can climb or I can help you climb because, man, you can do some beautiful stuff with your dance.

Caller:
[1:07:56] Yeah, I think it's because you've tried to put me down in the past because you've been been very conservative in the past especially when you were in your late teenage years as a radical libertarian and um so you've uh like you've been trying to put me down in the past so i just assume it's gonna carry on and that's why i'm immediately defensive when i start hearing you uh trying to give me advice yeah.

Apology and Commitment to Change

Stefan:
[1:08:22] And so two things number one i am really sorry for that and number two the fact that the pansexual is calling me a radical i actually take as kind of a compliment So I appreciate that. I mean, that is all good humor.
But no, and I am sorry for that, because I think I was embarrassed.
I think I thought, how does this reflect upon me?
And I certainly was frustrated, and I kind of wanted to shake you out of that environment, but without anything inspirational, without anything aspirational, and it was wrong, and to put you down.
Was the wrong approach. It was rude. It was dismissive. It was insulting.
And I'm really, really, I mean, I can say I'm sorry for that.
I know it doesn't undo what I did, but I won't do that again.
And again, I really want to just try and be here as a resource to, you know, we're the only two here, right? We're the only siblings.
We're a brother and a sister.
And if there's anything I can do to help you achieve your greatest goals, I will do that.
Because you know we're brother and sister we love each other i will do that i will really really work hard to do that i know it's not easy it may not work but i just i just know what you're capable of and if there's anything i can do to help with that i'm i'm thrilled to do it because i mean if it's not going to be each other really who's it going to be if it's not like we've got a whole handful of siblings to choose from sorry you were going to say say something and again Again, I spoke over you. Sorry.

Caller:
[1:09:48] No, I guess the patriarchy is still acting in our conversations a bit.
It never goes away. It always haunts me.

Stefan:
[1:09:57] But it's good in a way because the patriarchy, look, I get that's a real downsize to the patriarchy.
And I'm also, I mean, I'm a little mad at you because you've been calling me this patriarch and a little sexist and maybe you're down on women and so on.
But just you went back to work for the place where they kind of half forced you to get groped you know that that seems to me the real patriarchy the mistakes that i've made i'm not trying to, eliminate them but um you know that seems to be much more of a patriarchy but the patriarchy is good and that at least we can have these kinds of blunt conversations and i can say look i i think we can both do better i'm trying to do better in this conversation i think that you can do way way better in your dance opportunities, but it is going to require some discomfort.
And that's what I'm committed to doing my best to try and help you achieve.

Caller:
[1:10:48] Thank you so much. And it makes sense why you'd be trying to elevate me because I'm not a criminal right now.
I'm not doing anything that makes me deserving to be locked up.
And so, yeah, I understand now why you'd be trying to elevate me. And I'm scared.

Stefan:
[1:11:07] I'm scared. Like this groping story, this groping story scared the shit out of me, sis.
Like it really, it terrified me. Like I didn't sleep.
I can't even remember the last time. I'm terrified. Every time you're down at this club, I'm like, are you going to wake up addicted to heroin in fucking Dubai or something?
Like I'm scared. And look, I know you're tough. You can handle yourself.
You got the snake tattoo and I get all of that. but i'm i'm really i'm really scared i mean it's it's a little sinister and it's like i know it's been a couple of years but it seems like a big step that they tested some boundaries here and it they kind of got what they wanted and you're back and what happens next i don't know i mean i'm just you know the environment way better than i do but i'm really scared too i mean i got the potential thing i want all of that but i'm also scared about the direction this is all heading.

Caller:
[1:12:00] Yeah i never thought about it like that um because i just see groping as like yeah it's bad but it's not that bad and uh there's worse things that could happen but it could be a slippery slope that i'm heading down where it's a precursor for more serious sexual crimes.

Stefan:
[1:12:17] Yeah and we look we all know like the whole weinstein thing we know that the entertainment industry is rife with this kind of stuff and i uh model the modeling industry like all of it is just rife with this kind of exploitation and you are i mean you are very confident you are very attractive and you know that that is going to attract some people who might want to break you and i just, oh you know i just i just i have real concern and listen if something i mean something bad did happen to you.
And I get the groping is not the end of the world. It's not great at all.
And it definitely is a violation of your space and it's piggish and it's chauvinistic and it is patriarchal in the worst possible sense and it's exploitive, especially because it basically was for money to get the guy to spend more on the club or because he had been spending more on the club. But.

[1:13:09] It is, really scary that this violation has occurred and you're back.
You didn't just slap the guy in the face and stride out with your head held high, right?
And I get, because you want to keep being able to do the dancing, it's like, but there's got to be other places to dance or other things you can do, or is dancing worth that? And, you know, I'm just...
Uh i'm i'm scared about what's out there and what might be you know now they know like the club owners now know that you'll do this stuff like i guess you were mad at them and all of that but you'll do it and so when they want someone else to get groped or maybe get groped they'll come to you and like i don't know where it goes from there but it's probably not a good place.

Caller:
[1:13:55] Yeah i guess i'm living in the moment so much i'm living life like there's no tomorrow and And that means that I'm not trying to build up savings.
I'm not sacrificing so much by going to London and auditioning for lots of different things. And so.

Stefan:
[1:14:11] And if you were worried about me, let's say I was getting involved with a really bad group of people. I'm not calling the people you were involved with bad.
I'm just like, if it was me and I was getting involved with grad proof and I was getting threatened and this, that and the other.

The importance of sharing concerns and potential dangers

[1:14:24] And you didn't really sit down and talk to me about it. and then I ended up getting really beaten up or something really bad happened to me, I mean, you'd feel pretty bad for not sharing your concerns, right?
And this is what, I mean, I obviously care enormously about your potential, but I also want to share my fears because if I am scared, and maybe just, maybe men are a tiny little bit better at figuring out these kinds of dangers because, you know, as men, we move among men and we're just used to dealing with dangers and potential violence and so on, right? right?
Like, women don't beat each other up.
In general, men, we always face this possibility since we were little kids, so you're going to get beaten up or whatever, right?
So we're pretty well-tuned to violence and what can happen. And this was a kind of violence, right?
This was a kind of assault on you.
And I can't tell you, like, I'm not just scared about what's going to happen to you.
If something bad happens to you, if I hadn't said anything, oh my God, like the amount of regret that I would face would be, oh, I mean, it would be bottomless because, you know, I hate to be that annoying.
Maybe you think it's patriarchal. But you're my little sister and I love you and I don't want bad things to happen to you.
And they kind of are. Again, maybe this is just a one-off thing or whatever, but even in terms of the loss of your potential, that's kind of a bad thing, I think.

Caller:
[1:15:42] Yeah, I appreciate that. But it is my own life, so I can do what I want with it at the end of the day.
It's my choice. and so but.

Stefan:
[1:15:56] Is it sorry again it is of course it's your own life of course it is your own life but you are, you are wound and bound up with others, right? I mean, if I had a kid, to take an extreme example, if I have a son and my wife is on vacation or something, and I say, well, I just want to go to the nightclub.
He's one year old or whatever. I just want to go to the nightclub.
Well, I can't take him to the nightclub and I can't leave him alone.
And I say, well, but it's my life.
It that and right but if you're wound up with other people it's not just your life anymore because other people care about you and and one of the great things you get in life is that people will care about you and that's wonderful but then if people care about you and and will talk to you straight and will sacrifice to help you and are really bound up to your future and and what makes you happy you're not it's not just your life because people care about you and that that That doesn't mean we control you or you control us.

[1:17:10] But, you know, if you're some guy on a desert island and you kill yourself, okay, you're a guy on a desert island, like, whatever, right?
But if you have extended family, a bunch of people who love you and you say, well, it's my life, I can do whatever I want.
It's like, but you have a lot of people who care about you and you care about them.
And so you have a ripple effect, like your actions, your choices have a ripple effect.
It's not just you when people care about you. And maybe you feel, and listen, I've not been the best brother, so I'd say this with all humility, but maybe you feel kind of alone.
And that's why you feel like it doesn't matter what you do. But I'm telling you, as your brother, it really matters what you do.
It matters to me what you do. It matters to me what happens to you.
So saying it's my life, I can do what I want, I feel a pain.
It doesn't mean you're wrong. I just think I feel a pain in my heart about that because basically you're saying what I hear from that.

The ripple effect of our choices on others

[1:18:03] Could be totally wrong, but what I hear from that is.

[1:18:06] I can do whatever I want, because what I do doesn't matter to you.
Whereas if you accept that what you do matters enormously to me, then saying, well, I can just do whatever I want, becomes diminished, because you get all the benefit of support.
But that does, I think, put, at least you have to think about how your behavior affects others, because you're not an island, and you do have people around you.
I'm one of them, in fact, maybe the first in line, who really do love you and care about you.
And so what you do does affect me enormously and that doesn't mean you should be a slave to what i want and of course not but just saying it's my life i can do what i want denies i mean the very strong bond that that we have because if i were to say uh you know let's say we we're real close and we're getting along and and we love each other and then i say well i've uh i'm moving to to Australia, right?
But that would hurt and upset you because you'd want to have me around because I'm a good brother and we care about each other.
And if you'd say, well, I don't want you to move to Australia.
And I say, well, it's my life.
I can do what I want. Wouldn't that be kind of like, well, I get that it's your life and you can do what you want, but shouldn't you also care about what I want a little bit?
That doesn't mean that you're a slave, but we're not that isolated that it doesn't matter what we do, if that makes sense.

Caller:
[1:19:25] Yeah, I understand. And I got a bit emotional hearing that um but we might not have the strongest bond uh because i didn't message you for many weeks when i was in india and uh i think it might be because i um surround myself with friends who uh will tell me what i want to hear and um will say like encouraging things my current choices like it's my life my choice and um you're one of the few people who's um try to talk about moral issues and discourage me in my liberal outlook on life.
And so it makes me reject you. Right, right.

Stefan:
[1:20:05] Right. And listen, I assume that if you get married, right, I assume that you'll want, I mean, I know the whole pansexual thing and all of that, but I assume that, you know, if you get married, then...
You'll want your husband to be faithful, right? Especially if you have kids, right?

Caller:
[1:20:26] I might become a single mother.

Stefan:
[1:20:28] You might, but let's say that you do get married. Let's say either this guy or some guy comes along. He's the perfect guy.
You want to marry him and you want to have him be your father.
So generally then you would say, don't cheat on me, right? I think you wouldn't want him to cheat on you.
And so if he says, well, it's my body. I can do what I want.
It's true. He can go and cheat on you, but it's really going to hurt you.
Right so if he says it's my body i can do what he want he's kind of denying his bond to you and of course the funny thing is the funny thing is you say well it's my body i can do what i want, and then in a sense you get paid to be groped which you don't want to do like it's not it's usually not that simple as just being like a completely atomized person like you're a the only person in a spaceship a thousand light years from earth is like well then you can do what you you want but we are all bound up together sorry you were going to say well.

Caller:
[1:21:18] I i could be a single mother i could be reliant on the government and uh get a good uh salary from them so um i don't think it matters that much uh.

The Impact of Growing Up Without a Father

Stefan:
[1:21:28] No but it doesn't matter i'm sorry i mean it really does and and you don't have to believe me you can just go look up these statistics which don't come from christian or conservative or you know traditional sites you can just look up the statistics of what happens to children who grow up without a father. It's not good for them.

Caller:
[1:21:46] That's the generalization, though. Like, I think I'd be a great single mother.

The Importance of Doing What's Best for Your Kids

Stefan:
[1:21:53] But you do have to do what's best for your kids.
And that's statistically, right? Like, I mean, you can say, well, I can leave my toddler alone because most toddlers who are left alone are fine.
Right? And I guess maybe statistically, most of the toddlers who were left alone are fine, but it certainly does raise the risk of something bad happening to your toddler.
So you have to do, like, if you have a kid who's learning how to ride a bike, you should put a helmet on them.
Now, you can say, well, lots of kids fall off their bikes and don't get head injuries.
Or lots of kids don't even really fall off their bikes at all, or maybe it's on ground.
But you don't know that for sure, so you have to take precautions.
You have to do what's best for your kids, and you can't just go with generalities or odds or statistics.
You have to do what's best for your kids, and it's best for your kids.
Look, you're a wonderful woman, but you cannot teach a little boy how to be a man because you're not a man.
So any more than I could teach a little girl how to be a woman. I.

Caller:
[1:23:00] Might be a man in the future.

Stefan:
[1:23:03] That's a joke. Yeah, I get that, but you still wouldn't have been a man who grew up as a man.
So what I'm saying is that you really do have to kind of bend your will for what's best for your kids.
And what's best for your kids is to grow up with a father and a mother.
Now, I know our mother and father weren't the best examples, but that's a different matter.
Just because there are bad mothers and fathers out there doesn't mean they're all bad, and it could be a good incentive for us to be better.

Caller:
[1:23:36] What about a father and a father or a mother and a mother?

Stefan:
[1:23:41] Well, let's just say that you being—let's do one step at a time.
Time so you being a single mother if if you were to be a single mother and it could happen for whatever reason i guess you could be a widow if your husband dies or whatever right but if, if you grew up as a single mother that's not as good as having a father around now the mother mother father father stuff let's deal with that down the road but i really want to deal with the single mother thing first right it's not the very best thing for your kids and you say well i'm a i could do what i want but when you say i can do what i want what you're saying is it doesn't matter to anyone else what I do, and that's lonely.
That's isolated. That means you don't understand that you're bound together.
I mean, let me give you a silly example. Like, if, you know, if I'm in a small swimming pool with a bunch of other people, and I pee in the pool.

[1:24:36] And people say, hey, that's a suspicious amount of warm.
Like, what are you doing? And you say, I'm peeing. They say, well, you can't pee. I said, hey, it's my body. I can do what I want.
But I'm in a small pool with other people, so what I do affects them.
Now, if I'm in a lake swimming on my own, I could pee, right?
Because it doesn't affect anyone else. So when you say, I can do what I want, it's my body, it's my choice, I can do what I want, what you're saying is you feel very isolated and you don't feel like your actions matter to other people you don't feel like you're bound together with anyone and i think that's quite sad because you have a lot to offer and i i don't like the idea that you feel you're that isolated that what you do doesn't matter like you feel like you're in the middle of a lake in the middle of nowhere but you're attracted to small pool with a lot of other people sorry go ahead yeah.

Caller:
[1:25:27] I guess it's because whatever i do my parents won't discourage me and they won't um encourage me to do certain things and uh they're very like liberal like i am like they go to drag queen shows on the weekend and get drunk really drunk on saturday friday nights so um they're in the same camp as i am and um so no one's discouraging me from doing things and uh you're too scared to normally to to discourage me in recent years because.

Stefan:
[1:25:55] Well again i know and i listen you totally earned calling me discouraging because i have been negative i'm trying to and i hope i'm coming across this way to some degree i'm trying to be encouraging like i want if you you become a mother i hope you become a mother i want i want to encourage you to be the best mother you can and that means statistically that means having a dad around having a father around or we can say partner for now, whatever, right?
But you're going to need someone to help you raise the kid because it doesn't have good outcomes in general.
And I'm trying to be encouraging because, again, I really care about what happens to you in your life, as I hope you care about what happens to me in my life.
And I want to give you fact-based, decent advice, or at least encourage you to work hard for your potential, because I think that's going to make you the happiest. Sorry, you were were going to say.

Caller:
[1:26:48] Oh no need to apologize i'm just getting very angry so that's why i'm interrupting you and because uh you're going against everything i've heard on podcasts for uh many many years so um i think um like i think the problem is that the government isn't giving single mothers enough money and um if the government did more if we had a labor government in power then um i think single mothers will be able to be just as good as mothers who are married to a husband.

Stefan:
[1:27:18] No, but that's to say that fathers of children only provide money.
That they're just workhorses that spit money and vanish, right?
I mean, fathers are involved with child raising and have been, of course, throughout our entire evolution.
And you can't just, you know, wish away our entire evolution.
I mean, evolution programs men to react positively to half-naked female bodies.
So you're kind of hooking into evolution for your income.
So we can't just eliminate evolution when it's kind of the basis for your income, right? Right.

[1:27:55] So fathers provide a lot, and mothers provide a lot of value, fathers provide a lot of value, and you can't just replace that with government money.

The Impact of Money on Single Mothers

[1:28:06] I mean, if you look at a single mother now has probably easily 10 times more money than a single mother 100 years ago, like just on government income, because a single mother 100 years ago often had to go to a poor house or or workhouse.
She probably has a thousand or ten thousand times more money than a single mother a hundred years ago.
A single mother now has at least a thousand times more money than a married couple a hundred years ago, but the children of the married couple that were way poorer had better outcomes than the mother who's a thousand times richer who's a single mother now.
So it's not just more money. If more money was the solution, then the amount of money and resources that single mothers get now compared to married couples in history, that the kids should be doing much better better now, but they're doing worse.
So it's not just a matter of money.
And, you know, it's going to be kind of tough to attract a good father for your kids if you just say, well, the only thing that men have to offer me is money and go away.
Give me money and go away, right? That's not like a quality man is going to be like, no, I love you. I love the kids.
I want to be there and involved and helping raise them and all of that, right?
As opposed to just, well, all you are is a paycheck And I guess that's kind of like, maybe that's what happens with you in the corner of the club, right?
In the corner of the club, you know, shaking what God gave you, so to speak.

[1:29:29] Maybe that just reduces men to mechanical, like to animals, to hormones, to like, and that's the other, you know, like dancing in the corner of the club.
It's not really going to expose you to the highest or best quality men, like men who would really appreciate.
Your character, your wit, your intelligence, your debating abilities, your curiosity, and your intellect, right?
Because they're just going to be blinded by the flesh, I suppose, and you're obviously so much more than that.

Caller:
[1:29:59] Uh, yeah, I guess I've reduced them to just, uh, basic creatures and I guess it comes down to hating men, uh, more than anything else.
And, um, that's why I just want to take their money and, uh, not really like, uh, interact with them in a deep, meaningful way and just always taking their money with, uh, without complexity.
And i uh i just need to maybe i need to connect with men more and uh i i don't know yeah i never saw a lot of that uh thanks for bringing it up.

Stefan:
[1:30:36] Well i mean if if all a man does is go to strip clubs and watch pornography he's not going to get a very balanced view of women and he's going to view women as in a light that doesn't exactly get the deep complexity and beauty of femininity or womanhood or whatever it is right so if if you're at this kind of environment where the men are just kind of grabby and gross and leery and and throwing money at you and stuff it's not going to give you a particularly great view of men like you know if if i said well the the only thing that about black culture is is the bitches and hoes rap videos you'd say okay like that's kind of racist to say that that's the only thing the black culture you know there's There's lots of other things as well.
And I guess if you're just in one kind of seedy area with some pretty gross men, it does, I think it does, after a while, doesn't it kind of color your view of men and the contempt you might have for men and all of that?

Seedy Environments and Contempt for Men

[1:31:37] Because it is kind of seedy, right?

Caller:
[1:31:41] I show up my intellect in other areas. Like when I'm talking to my boyfriend on holiday and we're having interesting conversations.

Stefan:
[1:31:50] Right. And so that's good. Right. So there's an example. Now, but would you say that your boyfriend might potentially make a decent father?

Caller:
[1:31:59] Uh yeah absolutely.

Stefan:
[1:32:00] Okay and what would it do you think it would be better to to raise your kids with a father a partner a husband whether it's husband or not it's not particularly important but um with with a father for your children i assume it would be better than doing it completely alone right um.

Caller:
[1:32:17] I uh yeah but um things happen people make mistakes and uh I might just be fed up with him, so I'm okay with the alternative.

Stefan:
[1:32:31] Why do you think you would, I mean, you've been going out with him for a while, and I don't know, maybe there's a good reason, why do you think you would just, would you just wake up and just be fed up with him?

Caller:
[1:32:41] Yeah, maybe. People change, don't they?

Stefan:
[1:32:44] Well, I don't know. I mean, personality is actually pretty stable, according to the studies I've read. Personality is pretty stable throughout life.
Do you think that you just wake up and you just look at someone and you say, I don't like you anymore?

Caller:
[1:32:56] Uh yeah because i um i can do what i want and uh no man is gonna hold me down, i'm gonna well no but if you it's not.

Stefan:
[1:33:06] Holding you down if you like him if you like spending time with him but.

Caller:
[1:33:10] I might just wake up one day and be fed up with him and that's my choice as an empowered woman to ditch him and i'd be a single mother that'd be too yeah well.

Stefan:
[1:33:19] Again if If you focus on what's best for your kids, then you would try and figure out what had happened with your husband, right?
You would try and figure out what had happened with your husband so that you could work things out so that that would be better for your kids.
Right now, of course, if he was just a terrible guy, that would be a different matter. But he's not a terrible guy, right? I mean, just had a nice long vacation with the guy.

Caller:
[1:33:40] Well, I'm so focused on my own feelings and what makes me happy.
I'm not really thinking about children right now.

Stefan:
[1:33:47] No, I get that. Yeah, of course. I mean, this is very theoretical because we're talking about the future when you have kids, right?
And you've chosen to have kids with a man. So I get all of that. I get all of that.

Caller:
[1:33:58] And kids, like, they'll bounce back. They're strong.
They'll probably recover from anything that goes wrong in the relationship. Oh.

Stefan:
[1:34:08] And I hate to be this guy. I can really do. I really do.
And I, again, don't believe me. Don't believe me. But no, kids don't bounce back. I mean, that's not really the case.
And there have been tons of studies on this that, you know, I mean, significant child abuse, it takes an average of 20 years off a kid's lifespan.
You don't just bounce back from it.
So, yeah, the idea I can do whatever I want because my kids will be fine no matter what is not borne up by the data.
And listen, I know as a progressive, right, I mean, you're into science, and again, don't believe me, right, just look into the actual science behind it, but it is a very well-studied and robust phenomenon that kids don't bounce back.
There's this thing called the adverse childhood experience score, which is a score of, I think, one to nine.
And when kids go through these adverse childhood experiences, their odds of drug abuse, of promiscuity, of cancer, of heart disease, of various addictions and so on, every single one of these adverse experiences they go through raises their chances of falling prey to these kinds of things. And they don't bounce back.

The consequences of neglecting children's needs

[1:35:20] So you really do have to, you know, it's like saying if some kid doesn't get enough to eat and they grow up like three inches shorter than they should have been, they just eat more later and they'll just bounce back.
It's like, they really don't. So, again, I hate to be this guy who's like, well, everything you say is wrong.
And, you know, a lot of what you said, I really have listened to over the years, too. And you've made some really great cases.
But I have to be pretty ferocious about this one because you obviously wouldn't want to do things that would permanently harm children because you are a good person.
I know that. You're a good person. And you wouldn't want to do things that would harm children.
If you think that children just bounce back and you can do whatever you want and that's not true, then that would be like me saying, oh, I can smoke three packs of cigarette today and I'll be fine.
And you would then say to me what you would say no you won't that's very dangerous right and it's the same thing with with kids yeah.

Caller:
[1:36:09] I um but it's single motherhood on that adverse uh childhood and this thing.

Stefan:
[1:36:18] I'm sorry, say again?

Caller:
[1:36:20] Is single motherhood one of the things in that adverse childhood score?

Stefan:
[1:36:26] Yes, yes. Definitely father absence, divorce is bad for these things, for sure.

Caller:
[1:36:32] Oh, okay. But I think I just, like, I had a tough childhood, and I turned out fine.
And, well, mostly fine. so I think it would be okay for the kid like at least they won't have a toxic male around to abuse them.

Stefan:
[1:36:52] Well yes but your boyfriend isn't a toxic abusive male is he.

Caller:
[1:36:58] He might turn out like that.

Stefan:
[1:37:00] I'm so sorry I need to interrupt for just one second I apologize this is me jumping out of the roleplay can you just give me two minutes I have to do something and I'll be right back.

Caller:
[1:37:10] Okay yeah sure.

Stefan:
[1:37:11] Thank you if you need to pee or something now's the time thanks, All right. I'm not sure if you're back or not. Just let me know.

Caller:
[1:37:21] Yeah, I'm here. Hello.

Stefan:
[1:37:22] Okay. Sorry about that. So, yeah, sorry.
I can't remember exactly where we were in the role play, but holy, I mean, tell me what you thought of what we were up to in that role play.

Caller:
[1:37:36] Yeah it's interesting um sometimes i couldn't tell if i was imitating like a pure sjw boy it was my sister um but i think i try my best to imitate no you did a great job but uh.

Stefan:
[1:37:48] What was your experience of uh of what we were up to.

Caller:
[1:37:50] Um i gotta i did get emotional um at one point but But I'm not that emotional of a person as we've established in the past.
And one of the problems is that I repress my emotions too much.
And that's what we established in our last call.
And just the caringness that you showed us, that my brother was really powerful.
And it made me realize that I've come across as looking down on her too much.
And um i should really emphasize how i i'm loving and caring and i want the best for her rather than but.

Stefan:
[1:38:33] You try and you do want the best for her right.

Caller:
[1:38:38] Yeah that's what.

Stefan:
[1:38:38] I mean there was a pause there i mean maybe you don't i mean maybe there's a certain amount of hostility or frustration which is important to acknowledge as well but for me i like i just i can't have people in my life if i don't want the best for them because it just drags us both down yeah.

Caller:
[1:38:53] I guess i resent her a bit because of um How hostile she's been in the past to me.
And also because of the choices that she's made in her life that I disagree with.

Stefan:
[1:39:09] Well, that's what I was trying to get across. And I know I was a bit repetitive, but sometimes you need that.
I really did want to get across to her that...
I can do what I want, it's my life, it's my choice, is a statement of intense loneliness and isolation.
It's a feeling that nobody cares for you, you don't care for anyone, and it's really, it's one of the saddest things that you can hear from someone is, it's my life, I can do what I want.
And it's like, so you're saying that you're not close enough to anyone that your actions have any effect on anything.
You feel completely isolated.

Caller:
[1:39:51] Yeah it's just superficial nonsense that um she experiences all the time like um she has a new girlfriend that she brings to my parents and uh my parents are very approving and think like oh we like this person because she's fun to have a drink with in the pub and uh like it's not deep at all and it's like maybe it shows a lack of caringness of like uh like wanting the best for her.

Stefan:
[1:40:19] Now, when you say girlfriend, you mean that girl who's a friend, not a romantic pansexual thing?

Caller:
[1:40:25] I mean a genuine partner that she has.

Stefan:
[1:40:30] Oh i see so okay so but this is is it polyamory plus the boyfriend or was that separate from the boyfriend that.

Caller:
[1:40:38] Was a few years ago.

Stefan:
[1:40:39] Okay okay right i've.

Caller:
[1:40:42] Met her a few times.

Stefan:
[1:40:43] Right yeah so i mean i that that isolation you know do whatever you want right that is isolating right i i can't i can't just go and do what i want you know i mean i have a family i have a show i have you know people i i i talk to that i think we do some good in the world by having these conversations so, the idea that i can just go and do what i want is wild because it it is just so so solitary right.

Caller:
[1:41:19] Yeah yeah that's the message yeah it makes sense that she is lonely even though she's surrounded by people because her friends are too scared to judge anyone and I think it's because they had parents who were like often Christian and very moralizing and they're rebelling against their parents by not judging at all.

Stefan:
[1:41:44] Well but they do judge i mean your sister's very judgy right yeah.

Caller:
[1:41:52] They judge you if you're white center well.

Stefan:
[1:41:54] I mean so that they they do judge they just judge in an opposite way right uh these are moral standards what i'm going to judge you for imposing your moral standards like so they still have their morality they still have their judgment it just is reactive usually not not proactive Interactive.
So, I mean, the other thing too is that, of course, your sister being in this, you know, fairly sleazy world and in this kind of possible danger, or maybe just real danger with the last groping incident, it plagues your thoughts, doesn't it?

Caller:
[1:42:28] Yeah. I try and believe in things that excite me, like with certain views that you advocate for.
And sometimes I have my sister's voice in my mind saying, oh, you can't believe in that. That's completely inappropriate.

Stefan:
[1:42:46] Well i get that but you um i i sort of tried to get into the mindset i mean isn't it a little alarming to isn't a little alarming to have your sister in this fairly sleazy and dangerous environment full of fairly trashy men and exposing her flesh.

Caller:
[1:43:10] Yeah yeah it's concerning but i think i'm struggling with feelings um so my um concern comes from like um like more focus on abstract principles and i think not so much like oh that really repulses me it's more like oh that's a violation of the non-aggression principle to a great extent to.

Stefan:
[1:43:34] What's at wrong but so but you she's she's in your life I assume because you care about what happens to her.

Caller:
[1:43:46] Uh yeah absolutely.

Stefan:
[1:43:48] Now for women in particular if you come from a place of abstract judgment it tends not to go particularly well but if you come from a place of personal caring, which is why i think what i did was somewhat irresistible to her and i don't mean like she would agreed with everything but she couldn't just fly off the handle if that makes sense.

Caller:
[1:44:10] Yeah i really need to work on that being emotionally available and uh no.

The Impact of a Troubled Sister on Relationships

Stefan:
[1:44:16] This is honest you you care about her i mean if you just read about some girl who was a go-go dancer in the corner of a nightclub you just shrug and move on but because she's your sister and you grew up with her and you care about her so start from a place of of caring like you do care about her now if if If she's relentlessly hostile and aggressive and won't change and insults you, right, then you may have to take a step back and say, okay, well, I'm just hurting myself and not helping her. It's not good for me.
But it does have an effect on you. Like, if you meet a quality woman, or you meet some wonderful woman, and then you have to explain your sister, that's tough, right? Right?
It does, like her actions do have an effect on you because we're not responsible for who we have in our lives as children, but we absolutely are as adults.
And if you meet a quality woman and she's all, okay, well, tell me about your sister.
Oh, well, my sister does this and she got groped. And like the quality woman is going to be like, like, I'm not, I'm not sure about this.
Like there's something, something really not right here. And that's going to cost you.
So it does she'd be worried about sorry my dream.

Caller:
[1:45:28] Partner be worried about me being peer pressured into uh like being more like my sister.

Stefan:
[1:45:34] No a quality woman would sorry to dismiss no right but a quality woman would be concerned about chaos drama and danger.

[1:45:50] Right, so I'm going to give you the quality woman's mindset here, right?
That's not here. I'll just tell you. The quality woman's mindset would be, okay, so his sister is an exotic dancer and she's in his life.
So that means that the sister is going to have some pretty trashy people around her.
She's done drugs in the past. Maybe she'd do it again. Now, maybe she does drugs and maybe she doesn't pay for them.
And maybe somebody comes looking for money, right? That's kind of risky.
Or let's say she does actually get, it goes from groping to assault, and then she gets injured.
Well, someone's going to have to nurse her back to health, and maybe I'll end up being dragged into that, or maybe she gets into debt and we have to pay off the money, or maybe she gets sucked into some sort of criminal activity, and then we have to bail her out and deal with all the legal.
Right like what what or maybe she just gets pregnant or maybe she gets some really horrible std and you know there's just chaos and mess or maybe she she has has a kid with some guy who turns out to be an addict or violent in which case that like there's chaos and drama and mess and problems in this kind of world and is a quality woman going to want to be within a million miles of this kind of chaos and problems and drama.

Caller:
[1:47:16] No, yeah, she'd want to stay out of that.

Stefan:
[1:47:19] She's not going to want to get involved in this kind of life.
Because that life impacts you.

Caller:
[1:47:29] Right.

Quality Woman's Perspective on Chaos and Drama

Stefan:
[1:47:29] And through impacting you, it impacts her.
So if you have a chaos agent in your life, I'm not calling your sister a chaos agent because, whatever, it seems to be relatively stable at the moment other than the groping thing.
But, you know, this happens down the road. She's going to get depressed.
Depressed she's going to get depressed she's going to there's more panic attacks coming like all the mess is still to come because she's still young and uh she has this timeless thing but for women time marches on all right women age reproductively at three times the speed of men, so uh it's it's it doesn't get better from here and and an intelligent sensitive woman and will know that.
And then she's going to say, okay, so the sister's an exotic dancer.
What does that tell me about the parents? Well, it tells me that the parents are okay with it.
And that means that parents who not only raised a daughter to do this, but are okay with her doing it, those would be the grandparents that I would rely on to help raise my children, right?
Do I want that influence on my children's lives?

Caller:
[1:48:44] They would get drunk in front of the kids. That's a realistic possibility.

Stefan:
[1:48:49] They would. Or, you know, your sister's like, okay, well, maybe I've got to meet this sister of yours. Sorry, your girlfriend, right? Or some woman.
She's like, okay, let me come meet this sister of yours, right?
And your sister shows up with a big old snake tattoo on her chest, right?
And nose rings, or, you know, I think you said she takes them out or whatever, right?
But so the sister, your sister is going to, oh, great, this is going to be the auntie to my children is the girl with the snake tattoo, like the dragon tattoo, right?
A snake tattoo, right? So this is going to be auntie whatever her name is, right? Don't tell me, right?
But this is going to be the aunt for my children is the girl with nose rings and a snake tattoo who's a go-go dancer.

Caller:
[1:49:42] We can never fully achieve the uh tunbridge wellian dream that's a term i coined yeah yeah that's a fairly.

Stefan:
[1:49:49] Specific reference but i i get where you're going i mean look come on this.

Caller:
[1:49:53] Isn't.

Stefan:
[1:49:53] Exactly downtown abbey world here right.

Caller:
[1:49:55] Yeah uh because she's concerned that the kids will be raised um in a more liberal way um if they're around the auntie and uh the parents as well or if it's like lash out at the child because of what I've done in the past. Well.

Stefan:
[1:50:14] She's marrying into a family. And so, and she even more than like a woman, especially if you want kids, right?
A woman who marries into your family knows that she may end up spending more time with your family than you do because you're off working and providing an income and they're coming over, particularly the grandparents, if they live nearby, they're coming over a lot of, you know, The sister's got time off because she works nights, and she's coming over.
And so she's going to be like, okay, so these are going to be the people I raised my kid with.

Caller:
[1:50:49] Yeah. And I'm going to spend a lot of time.

Stefan:
[1:50:51] A lot of years with these people.
With elderly drunks and an aging-out exotic dancer.
For any quality woman, I've got to tell you, man, that's as depressing a scenario as can be possibly imagined.

Choosing Between Past and Future

Caller:
[1:51:09] Oh, yeah. So maybe the answer is to distance myself a bit from my sister and my parents and meet up with them for Christmas. Well, again.

Stefan:
[1:51:22] I can't tell you what to do. I'm just telling you that these are some of the variables that I believe, I can't prove, right, in my opinion, I believe these variables are in play.
And you have the choice as a young man, which is, is your life going to be about their past or your future?
Because if there's a choice between your past and their future, and I've been at these crossroads, I was older than you, right, so I'm sort of trying to throw this wisdom and back down the tunnel of time.
But I was at this choice.
Okay, so I have a past. I have a family of origin.
I have friends from when I was 11 because that's when I came to Canada, right? So I have a past and I have a future.
Now, if my past is detracting from my future, my choice is clear, right?
If your family of origin is going to drive away a quality woman, or she's going to look at you and say, like, great guy, but I just, I can't take, I can't do this.

[1:52:33] Then you have to look at your cost-benefit analysis. And this is a very cold-eyed way of looking at it. So if you're not Mr.
Passionate, we'll see eye to eye on this. To me, it comes down to this cold-eyed calculation. speculation.
It's like, okay, I'll just tell you my own life.
So I looked at my mother and other people. It doesn't really matter.
Just deal with my mother.
So I looked at my mother and said, okay, well, you've had your life, you've had your kids, you've made your choices, and you have what you have.
I have not had kids. I am not married. I have a whole future.
Now, I can't sacrifice my future for the sake of your bad decisions because then your bad decisions claimed two victims instead of one.

[1:53:18] And if a quality woman had said, had sat down with my mother and me and said, okay, so this is what I'm marrying into.
This is the woman who's going to be around to help me raise my kids.
She wouldn't have wanted to do it.
However much she might care for me, she wouldn't have wanted to do it.
Because you can't manage that. You can't control that. You can't reason with it.
So why would I want to sacrifice my past, which I did not choose, and dysfunctional people in my life that I never chose to be in my life?
Why would I want to sacrifice a wonderful, loving, happy future for the sake of people's bad decisions that I never chose to have in my life?
That would be really, truly sacrificing a good for a bad, and it would be sacrificing sacrificing a functional future for the sake of a dysfunctional past which means the past wins and the future is wrecked i'm.

Caller:
[1:54:24] Holding myself back you're right because i'm trying to conform into this family uh a bit without realizing so um.

Stefan:
[1:54:31] Well that's the whole point of what i'm doing is i'm yelling down the tunnel of time and saying well okay so think of your future and think of this is a tough thing for young people to do hell it's a tough thing for most people to think of somebody somebody coming in from the outside because you grew up with this this is normalized to you this is like you know the old thing about a fish in water you say hey you're in water the fish says what water right it's just the only thing it knows right so i'm trying to get your sense of of of thought to to go outside of your situation outside of your environment and to say what is it like, coming into this environment with no history of this environment.

Gaining Empathy by Seeing Yourself from an Outside Perspective

[1:55:19] What is it like coming into this environment with no history of this environment?
What do I look like from the outside coming in? It's a foundational act of empathy.
How does it look from the outside coming in?

Disappointment in Relationships and Expectations

Caller:
[1:55:38] Yeah, I've got to look at it like that. Yeah.

Stefan:
[1:55:41] Because that's what's actually happening.

Caller:
[1:55:44] Yeah, because I mentioned it at a church that I went to a few weeks ago.
And the woman looked disappointed.
She was a middle-aged woman and there was no potential for a relationship.
She was just like, oh, interesting, and looked disappointed. I'm sorry.

Stefan:
[1:56:00] I didn't follow that story. What did you say?

Caller:
[1:56:03] I was talking to a woman at church about what my sister does and what my parents are up to and she just looked disappointed and said, oh, interesting, which is code for I don't think that's very good.

Stefan:
[1:56:19] Right, right. So, and of course, if you want a woman who doesn't have this kind of dysfunction, right, so she's not going to come from this kind of world, most likely, right?
Maybe she's come from this kind of world, but has really reformed and fought that battle and managed to escape this kind of world, in which case she probably doesn't want to get dragged back into it, right? I just escaped from prison.
Do you want to go back to prison?
No, I just escaped from prison. Maybe you didn't hear me.
Right. So we assume that she comes from a much more functional background.
So she is going to come in from a relatively healthy and happy and functional family.
And she's going to say, okay, we've got some really heavy drinkers here.
We got a kid their daughter is an exotic dancer who is happy and proud and is looking forward to becoming a single mother, Why would I want to get entangled in this at all? Because there's going to be massive spillover effects.

Concerns about the impact on future children and family

Caller:
[1:57:23] Yeah. It's the kids that she's thinking about primarily. Well.

Stefan:
[1:57:27] She's thinking about her future children. She's also thinking about her own parents coming to meet your parents and her own siblings coming to meet your sister.
Hey, brother. Hey, mom. Hey, dad. Dad, here's snake tattoo, nose piercing, exotic dancer lady.
And what is her family going to say?

The potential consequences of marrying into a troubled family

Caller:
[1:57:56] They're going to be disappointed. No.

Stefan:
[1:57:59] They're not going to be disappointed.
Well, they're going to be pretty proactive and they're going to say, he's not that pretty.
Nobody's that pretty that you'll put up like no you can't you can't like honestly you they'd sit down with their daughter and she would care about their opinion they're good parents right they sit down with their daughter and say listen i mean i'm sure he's a nice guy i'm sure you know and i'm not blaming him for his family but this is who's in his life and that's not going to change, and so you're not just marrying him you're marrying all of them all of them, You're getting, you're, you're, you're binding your life together with all of them.
And the daughter is going to age out and the daughter is probably going to get addicted to drugs again.
Or the daughter is going to get into some kind of criminal activity or the daughter.
I mean, unless she pulls out and goes to therapy and right deals with it, in which case that's her.
But she doesn't even think there's a problem. So that's not going to happen.
Right. I mean, you know, the first you can't solve a problem if nobody thinks it's a problem. Sorry. Go ahead.

Caller:
[1:59:08] You think it'll get worse in the future because she'll lose their good looks and then she'll struggle to find jobs and be more broke. and then turn to drugs to deal with that? Well.

Stefan:
[1:59:19] I mean, that's certainly a possibility. Definitely she's going to age.
And she might get pregnant, in which case the whole mess begins to come out, right?
Because she can't be a dancer when she's pregnant. It's pretty tough to be a dancer after you give birth, right?
I mean, literally vaginal tearing and so on. It's kind of tough to gyrate when you've had an episiotomy, right?
So it's going to take a while to recover.
It's going to take a while to recover her figure. Of course, if she's getting her primary sense of value from being good-looking and with a great body, then motherhood is going to mess that up for quite some time.
Aging is absolutely going to mess that up after a while. And the two combined is going to take her off the market. And what does she do when she's not attractive?
What does she do when she doesn't have sexual market value to bring to the table, right?
I mean, women understand this kind of stuff, right? I mean, you can just follow pearly things on X, and she's constantly pointing out, yeah, 25-year-old women are hotter than 35-year-old women, and women go insane.
Some, right? Obviously, not all, not even that many, but a lot of them go insane.
And the first thing they do is they post topless pictures of themselves saying, well, I'm hotter than you, and it's like, but that wasn't my argument, right?
The fact that women lose attractiveness as they age.

[2:00:48] Is is understood men do too for the most part but it's a little slower for us and we gain value from having additional resources and income but yeah she's um you know i'm sure she's very pretty and she's got a great physique and all of that uh and she's young and um, that's uh and of course part of that great physique is she's doing the exercise of dancing for i assume well you said it's just two nights a week but you know that's still a fair amount of exercise but it's um it's not going to play well sorry lots of training oh she does the training as well right also.

Caller:
[2:01:23] Uh yeah i think i'm just walking around cafes like delivering coffees.

Stefan:
[2:01:28] Does she do training like she's taking additional dance training or is it just like gym exercise training uh.

Caller:
[2:01:36] Probably like gym exercise.

Stefan:
[2:01:36] Training yeah so she's working at it So I'm sure she looks great, and that's not going to last.
Now, of course, women do say, and it's like, well, look at Elizabeth Hurley and Christy Brinkley, and they're in their 50s and 60s and still look fantastic. And it's like, they do.
They do. And that's very expensive for the most part. A lot of technology goes into that, too, even if it's just exercise technology and so on.
But they've also already had their kids and so on, right? So it's not a pretty scenario for a woman to rely this much on her looks.

The Future and Perception of Exotic Dancers

Caller:
[2:02:15] I, um, I, yeah, I guess she doesn't realize that she's relying on a lot so much or no, she's so focused on the present that she's not thinking 10 years in the future.
She's like, oh, I might not even be here in 10 years. Well.

Stefan:
[2:02:28] That's great. What she also doesn't see, and this is what I was kind of trying to get across.
Not very well, which is my issue. not anybody else's of course but is okay um is a quality guy going to want an exotic dancer for girlfriend no no of course not i mean do you think do you think some guy who wants to become a doctor or who's in pre-law or i mean i'm to take some cliche you know whatever some entrepreneur or someone some guy who wants to get into finance or whatever it is do you think that he wants an exotic dancer as a wife or a former exotic dancer as a wife does he does he want to show up at a corporate function with snake tattoo girl uh probably no no absolutely no it's.

Caller:
[2:03:22] Half this no.

Stefan:
[2:03:23] Absolutely i've moved i've moved in some very very wealthy circles and you just don't you never see women like this, now i'm not saying that that she would do it just for money or whatever it is but a guy who's who's a moral decent quality guy i mean obviously he he might find he would find her attractive i guess from a sort of physical standpoint might have a fling probably wouldn't be great but he's not going to marry her.

The transformation of a woman's values and behavior

Caller:
[2:03:54] And it's that because she was raised to be like uh a very perfect lady uh going to one of the top private schools for girls and uh it's like what's happened it's just she just suddenly changed over a few years.

Stefan:
[2:04:08] Well she got a demonic this is a this is a it's a satanic story in a way in my opinion.

[2:04:15] Right which is that everybody knows that young fit women can get a lot of attention, by taking off their clothing i mean this is this is like everybody knows that right i mean monkeys know that right i mean not that take off clothing but so the purpose of a lot of society has been to try and find a way to restrain women from taking that route because then you end up with a hypersexualized society that doesn't have children because men, by being so overstimulated, will want to have...
I'm sorry to talk about your sister this way, I know it's weird, but let's forget just women as a whole, right?
So hypersexualized women, men will have flings with but they won't wife them up. They won't wife them up.
And so you end up with a hypersexualized society where people end up actually having less sex because you have the most sex in a happy, pair-bonded relationship.
But you end up with a hyper-sexualized society where actually very few people are having regular sex and there aren't any children.
So the whole purpose has been to harness female beauty and turn it into high-value pair-bonding.
High-value doesn't just mean money, it's virtue or whatever, right?
And so she was offered...

[2:05:38] Resources for attractiveness without having to commit and have children right because that's what men used to do i'll make you my wife i'll give you resources but you have to give kids like you have to give kids for these resources now she's getting resources without having to give kids right yeah.

Caller:
[2:05:59] No strings attached and she can do whatever she wants.

Stefan:
[2:06:03] Do whatever you want and you don't have to have a baby, you don't have to be responsible, other lives, you know, you could just live for yourself and so on, right?
And so the level of male lust and female attractiveness has gotten to such a high level, because we can find it within pair bonding marital relations.
But in the absence of those pair bonding marital relations, female appeal and male resource transfer is you're just flushing money down the toilet so to say i'm not comparing your sister to a toilet i'm just talking in terms of reproduction because you know you think of all of the men who send money to e-girls and again i'm not comparing your sister to this but all the men who send money to e-girls is money they're not giving to the future mothers of their children, right so all of these resources the male men men have more resources we have more resources than we need to live?
Why do we have excess resources so that we can have kids?
And men take all of this excess resources and they throw it into stupid shit and wasting time and movies and e-girls and pornography and video games and crap and we take all of our excess resources and we hand it over and we don't get kids, in return.

The consequences of prioritizing short-term sexual gratification

Caller:
[2:07:25] Yeah. That has incentive to find a woman, because like you can see a woman with revealing clothes on in a club just by paying money but if the woman only wears revealing clothes in a marriage then you're going to be more encouraged to get into a marriage.

Stefan:
[2:07:44] Sure i mean in order to satisfy your sexual appetite you get married and for the woman to find a quality man and because you know you have to live with that woman for 60 more years or 70 more years or however long you live right you you have to find someone you like, And so, liking someone is as important as being attracted to them, and of course, a wise person will tell you that liking someone is even more important than being totally attracted to them, right?
Because attraction grows, and also the hotness leaves over time, and all of that.
It doesn't matter how hot she is when the baby is crying for the fourth time in the middle of the night, right?
So, yeah, I mean, it's kind of a demonic offer. She now gets resources, and she doesn't have to provide children.
So she's hooking into a biological imperative that men want to give attractive women resources, but men do that in order to woo them and have children.
And she gets all of those resources and never has to provide any children, and society doesn't do so well, does it, right? Right. So, yeah, it is.
Unfortunately, it's I'm not saying it's any sort of like literal smoking.
No Satan guy thing, but it is kind of a satanic offer to say you can hook into all of the biological imperatives designed for the production and raising of children without actually having to produce and raise children.
That's a pretty demonic offer that all of these biological imperatives, they're just for you and your wallet and your bank account and your vanity.
None of it's for actually having children.
And it's like, OK, well, you can hijack that stuff. stuff but it's going to make you miserable.

Caller:
[2:09:14] Yeah it's um it's quite an intellectual argument and um it makes sense but i think she's like not so intellectual and is more um based on feelings that have.

Stefan:
[2:09:28] No i mean she's she's won the lottery right she's a young very attractive woman in a society that there's millions of men out there perfectly happy to monetize that so there's men Then throwing money at her for breathing.
Right? Okay, so how's that going to change?
Right? She would have, I mean, this would be an intervention of mammoth proportions, and she doesn't even think that there's a problem.
She's actually pleased and happy. It's a good thing.

Caller:
[2:10:01] She's probably being groped. One thing she has an issue with is being groped, and everything else is fine.

Stefan:
[2:10:07] Right. Right. So then she'll just say, well, I just will manage it so I don't get groped. Or if I occasionally get groped, I'll just put that down to, quote, the cost of doing business. Right.

Caller:
[2:10:16] Yeah. Okay.

Stefan:
[2:10:17] So she can't. There's no fixing here.

The Value of Having Conversations

Caller:
[2:10:23] But do you think it's worth having that conversation.

Stefan:
[2:10:26] I always think it's worth I always have the same answer sorry to be annoying I always have the same answer if there's potential value in the conversation and you care about the person have the conversation more conversation is always better or to put it another way if you have any belief that the conversation can help have the conversation if at some point you no longer believe that further conversation will help you can make your choice then But if you have a belief, and I can't tell you for sure whether this conversation will help, because I mean, I'm just sponging in from the outside.
I do accept the general principle that if people don't believe there's a problem, then you can't fix anything.
But maybe through a conversation with her you can convince her that there is a problem or a potential problem in which case if like i don't talk to my mother because i'm a hundred percent certain that further conversations with my mother.

[2:11:26] Won't help now you have but i also i had a number of conversations with my mother over the years about all of this kind of stuff right so i've put in my time so to speak right if you have and i think you would be fair and right and just to have this if you have the perspective that talking to your sister might help i would say talk to your sister if at some point you no longer believe that that and whether that happens or not i don't know that's free will right but if at some point, you don't you accept that further conversations won't help you can make your choice then but yeah i'm a big fan of like a man the more conversations the better as long as you know there's an option of of achieving something and you don't know that for sure yet so i would i mean i'd recommend it.

Caller:
[2:12:16] Yeah i think um i'm optimistic because uh i've had a serious conversation with for a few hours and um i modeled it based on the way you talk to people and uh try to talk about our childhood and um try to encourage her to view um our parents with uh like honesty and empiricism and uh try and see the dad for who he was as an abusive figure and uh maybe point out like how that could have traumatized her not saying like it definitely traumatized her but Well.

Stefan:
[2:12:52] A lot of verbal abuse does prime people to be susceptible to this kind of hard left progressivism, which has a lot of verbal abuse embedded within it, right?
So you have to be called a lot of names before you're willing to label someone a destructive term like bigot or racist or, you know, whatever, right?
So you have to have received a lot of verbal abuse that's unprocessed trauma in order to normalize the verbal abuse that comes out of a lot of leftists and some rightists, of course, as well.
All right, so that's most of what I wanted to get across. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention at the end here?

Caller:
[2:13:30] Oh right yeah um well just like i'm struggling as well um but not so much nowadays compared to our last call i don't know if you remember our last call uh.

Stefan:
[2:13:40] I do to some degree yeah i mean i couldn't give you a summary of it but i certainly remember the voice and i certainly remember the father.

Caller:
[2:13:46] Uh yeah um i thought that episode was like very dark so uh you might just like cancel it before and but the file got corrupted i think so that's why you didn't upload it um yeah.

Stefan:
[2:14:01] I can't i can't recall um the decision process around that but i'm sure i've got it somewhere all right well listen i appreciate the call.

Caller:
[2:14:07] I hope you'll keep me.

Stefan:
[2:14:08] Posted about how things are going and you know i certainly do wish your sister the very best and i hope that you can get through to her and have her maybe steer her heart and mind towards some slightly wiser decisions but i uh i hope you'll keep me posted yeah.

Concerns about Video and Final Remarks

Caller:
[2:14:22] Thank you so much and we'll have a conversation and uh in a similar way that we role played and i'll be uh very caring and show that i want the best for him to lift her up all right keep me posted thanks.

Stefan:
[2:14:33] A lot for the call today man.

Caller:
[2:14:34] Like um one more thing um it could uh the voice be changed yeah yeah i'll i'll make it for the exchange for that for sure, okay thank you because i don't want the family to be like torn apart prematurely like in a very unlikely case that the video gets down.

Stefan:
[2:14:51] No, I'll change the voice and I will put it to donor only, okay?

Caller:
[2:14:57] Okay, thank you.

Stefan:
[2:14:58] Alright.

Caller:
[2:14:58] Thanks brother.

Stefan:
[2:14:59] Take care.

Caller:
[2:15:01] You too, thank you. Bye.






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