NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE?!? Transcript

Chapters

0:00 - Introduction and Community Invite
0:29 - Men's Desire for Pre-Marital Sex
1:16 - Evolution of Sexual Norms
3:14 - Reasons for No Sex Before Marriage Evolution
5:03 - Sexual Maturity and Marriage Traditions
8:09 - Challenges of Waiting for Marriage
12:33 - Impact of Hypersexuality and Abuse
21:04 - Risks of Hypersexuality in Relationships
26:12 - Dating Expectations and Red Flags
30:38 - Impact of Modern Society on Relationships
35:42 - Addressing Challenges in Modern Dating
38:41 - Importance of Getting to Know Each Other
39:59 - Consequences of Lack of Sexual Compatibility
40:48 - Conclusion and Appreciation

Long Summary

In this conversation, we delve into the complex dynamics of relationships, specifically addressing the question of sex before marriage. The speaker, Stefan Molyneux, offers insights into the historical evolution of sexual norms, tying them back to survival strategies in colder climates and the importance of paternity certainty for fathers to invest in their offspring. He highlights the significance of sexual compatibility in relationships and the challenges that arise when desires are mismatched.

Stefan delves into the male perspective on sexual relationships, emphasizing the importance of mutual desire and satisfaction. He explores how men perceive women's attitudes towards sex, discussing the implications of a woman's sexual history and how it may affect future relationships. Stefan dissects the idea of waiting for marriage to have sex, pointing out potential pitfalls and misconceptions associated with such a stance.

The conversation also touches on societal expectations, gender dynamics, and the role of sexuality in shaping interpersonal relationships. Stefan unpacks the notion of standards and self-worth in the dating world, shedding light on the complexities of modern romance. He addresses the challenges of communication, vulnerability, and understanding within intimate partnerships, offering a nuanced perspective on the delicate balance of desire and commitment.

Ultimately, Stefan encourages honest self-reflection, open communication, and a deeper understanding of one's own needs and boundaries in relationships. The discussion provides a thought-provoking exploration of intimacy, expectations, and the intricacies of human connection in the context of contemporary dating norms.

Transcript

[0:00] Introduction and Community Invite

[0:00] Good morning, everybody. Hope you're doing well. Stefan Molyneux. It is a little bit before my Sunday 11 a.m. show, and we are going to answer some questions from the fine folks at freedomain.locals.com. I hope you would join the community. It's a very, very good place to be. Remember, philosophy is not just intellectual. Philosophy is social. So I hope that you will come and check out the community, freedomain.locals.com. All right.

[0:29] Men's Desire for Pre-Marital Sex

[0:29] Freedomain. I've been exploring online dating, and I find that the majority of men want sex before marriage. When I decline them and tell them that I don't want to participate in recreational promiscuity, they often accuse me of being unreasonable. They pretend that sex before marriage is not a hedonistic or materialistic desire, and that sex is the only way that men can determine whether or not they want to invest themselves in marriage and children. As a single independent woman, I simply can't afford to be a broad for strangers. There are a few good men who are willing to court me and get to know me before becoming intimate. It seems like respect for women and themselves comes naturally to them. Why do so many men want to have sex as soon as possible? Is it really that pleasurable, or is it their way of avoiding a deeper and more meaningful bond?

[1:16] Evolution of Sexual Norms

[1:16] That is a fine, fine question, and I appreciate the space to answer. It's very interesting. So there's two things here that are not, to me, totally the same. So the first is sex before marriage, and then there is another one that says recreational promiscuity. So I'm not going to say these are two extremes, but these are not two things on the same exact continuum. So no sex before marriage.

[1:53] Is one thing, and recreational promiscuity is quite another. So to say I'm not going to have a one-night stand is not the same as saying I'm going to wait until marriage to have sex. Now, the evolution, of course, of not having sex before marriage was quite simple. So things Things evolved, sexual matters and sexual rules evolved, in a time when people got married in their teenage years after maybe a few weeks or at most a few months of courtship.

[2:37] So that's how things evolved. Now, the reason why no sex before marriage evolved in particular has to do with colder climates. So colder climates require a lot more skill to survive and i'm not talking i always have to sort of mention it's not like super cold climates like the inuit or the eskimo i don't know what the name is these days but that's a different matter because that remains sort of hunter-gathering even though that does require a fair amount of skill the evolution of no sex before marriage has to do with surviving winter in a farming environment, right?

[3:14] Reasons for No Sex Before Marriage Evolution

[3:15] So surviving winter in a farming environment. To survive winter in a farming environment requires years of knowledge transfer from fathers to sons and mothers to daughters. And in order to invest a huge amount amount of time and energy and effort into educating your children, for men, you have to truly know that they're yours. So, you know, remember, it's mother's baby, it's daddy's baby.

[3:49] Now, if a father has doubts about his paternity, he will not invest as much in his children. Just understand this. If a father does not have certainty in his paternity, or, you know, reasonable certainty, it's always a possibility, but reasonable certainty in his paternity, he will not invest as much in his children. If the father does not invest as much in his children, his children have a lower chance of survival. survival. Now, the lower chance of survival either occurs directly in that he doesn't provide for them nearly as much as he would otherwise, or it occurs in the next generation. So maybe he provides okay for his kids, but he doesn't transfer as much knowledge to them. And because he doesn't transfer as much knowledge to them, their children have less of a chance of survival. I mean, the skills Skills to survive winter in a rural agricultural setting are prodigious if the winter is, you know, reasonably long and harsh, or even if just the growing season is relatively short.

[4:53] So it's either his kids or his grandkids who end up with a lower chance of survival if the father is not certain of his paternity.

[5:03] Sexual Maturity and Marriage Traditions

[5:04] So human beings reach sexual maturity in their early to mid-teens. It used to be a little bit later. later. There used to be, I think in the Victorian age, women entered into puberty around the ages of 17 to 18 for a variety of reasons. But let's just say in your teenage years, you reach sexual maturity. And when you reach sexual maturity in relatively short order, you either have some sort of encouraged marriage, maybe even an arranged marriage in some ways, you get married in short short order, and then you start having sex within the marriage. But this all happens usually in your teenage years in the past. So that's how we evolved.

[5:49] Now, I'm assuming, of course, that you are not a woman who got married in her teenage years. And if you didn't get married in your teenage years, then you're doing something that is counter to what we evolved, which is, of course, that's totally fine. I mean, it's not a good or bad thing. I'm just pointing out that in tradition, you get married in your teenage years. And actually, I mean, some friends of mine got married in their teenage years and so on. And I mean, marriages are strong and good and all of that. So it's a perfectly reasonable and fine thing to do as long as you're raised obviously So you are out of the tradition of how we evolved if you're a woman in your, say, 20s or 30s, and you're not married.

[6:43] So, from the male perspective, from the male perspective, and I can't speak to women, and also I can't obviously speak for all men. This is a generic male perspective based upon sort of gathering information by chatting, you know, pretty frankly with friends over the years. From the male perspective, getting into a monogamous relationship with a woman who doesn't really enjoy sex is setting yourself up for a lifetime of torture. Let me say this again, just so you're clear from the female perspective. And none of this is moral. I'm just talking about the way things have evolved and what most men are like. If you're a man getting married and getting into a lifelong monogamous relationship, a sexually exclusive relationship with a woman who does not enjoy having sex or doesn't, I mean, doesn't enjoy having sex, let's say, nearly as much as he does. As he's setting himself up for a lifetime of tension, frustration, hostility, anxiety, fear, rejection, and torture, and temptation, and temptation. The male's sexual drive is second only to strong atomic forces in its intensity.

[8:09] Challenges of Waiting for Marriage

[8:10] So, here's the thing. Let's say, I don't know how old you are, you don't say, but I'm going to just say you're, let's say 25. So, you're 25. Okay. So, at 25, let's say you've been an adult for seven years, right? Now, if at the age of 25 or 30, a man comes across you and you say, I want to wait till marriage, well, the guy already knows that you've waited for seven years as an adult and you haven't had any sex. So, for a man, what does that signal? Well, for a man, that signals that you are probably low sex drive, or maybe you have an issue with sexuality, or something. Or maybe there's something physically wrong with you, or is there something wrong with your hormones? So you're saying I'm fine to go 10 years, let's say, because if he meets you at 25, you've been seven years an adult, no sex.

[9:22] And then, you know, you date for a year or two, you get engaged, you get married. So then you're going to be 10 years, no sex before you have sex. Right? So for a man, what does that signal to him? And I'm not talking sort of in the past, I'm talking about now. Now the teenage, like late teenage get married and start having sex, that's all gone. For the most part. I mean, some communities, yes, but for the most part in general culture, that's all gone. So the man looks at you and you say, I don't want to have sex until marriage. That's one thing if you're 18 and you're going to get married in a couple of months. Yeah, that's, I mean, to me, that would be worth waiting and an exciting anticipation and so on. But the man has to have a very strong sense that you are desperate to tear his clothes off. Because otherwise he's going to get stuck into a marriage, where one of the primary drivers of his existence, which is not just like the orgasmic sex drive, but, you know, the romance and the courting and the cuddling, like all of that stuff is great.

[10:35] Because if a man gets married to a woman, before a man courts a woman, he needs to get a sense. I mean, in a sense, he's desperate to get a sense of how pro-sexual she is. And he's looking for science. Now, some of this, for whatever reason, you know, there's a lot of words, you know, prudish or whatever it is. But if he has any doubts about the woman's capacity for lust, and in particular for him, then he's going to shy away. He's going to shy away way, because if you've ever talked to people, and I have, of course, over the course of this show, talked to men who are in sexless marriages, it's hell. You know, there's a video I've seen on social media, which is a man who kept a spreadsheet of all of the times and ways in which his wife had said no to his sexual advances. You know, 34 times you said you had a headache, 17 times you He said you were too tired. He kept a list of all of the times that his wife had rejected his sexual advances in a monogamous marriage.

[11:53] And a man who feels rejected sexually has a very tough time staying in love. A man who is rejected sexually has a very tough time staying in love. I'm going to put this as nicely as possible. And then, of course, so then, of course, the men get criticized as, oh, you just want me for my body and so on. And it's like, well, yeah, in part.

[12:15] Yeah, of course. But the body is an expression of something else. I mean, sexuality is such a wonderful and beautiful part of life that to be anti or cold or frigid or withdrawn, it signifies to me, it could be very tragic histories or traumas or problems or whatever.

[12:33] Impact of Hypersexuality and Abuse

[12:33] The male higher sex drive usually and men do usually have a higher sex drive than women but the higher sex drive of the male can be used to control and bully the male and sex for some women a lot of women it seems at times can be held out as a reward or a punishment in order to control the man and the you know if if the woman is continually saying i don't feel like it and then Then the man sees the woman doing all other kinds of things she doesn't feel like. If she's got a job, she goes to her job even when she feels terrible or doesn't want to go or is mad or upset or angry or tired. She gets up and goes to. So she'll do what her boss, her often male boss, wants to do even if she won't. And that's eight hours, right, or ten hours with commute. So the woman will do what her male boss wants to do without complaint but won't do or won't even entertain what her husband might want to do for, I don't know, 20 minutes or whatever, right? And I'm not saying the two are emotionally equivalent, but I'm just telling you how the male brain works.

[13:35] And this is why the male boss is a victorious competitor in the man's lizard brain to himself. Because the male boss is who the woman defers to, his wife or his girlfriend. The male boss is who the woman defers to. And she almost never says no. And she doesn't yell at him. She doesn't call him names. She doesn't usually manipulate him, at least not obviously and directly.

[14:03] She doesn't withhold. hold, she doesn't punish, she doesn't nag. So he gets the alpha treatment, right? The male boss gets the alpha treatment. And the husband, the supposed love of her life, gets the, I don't know, peasant treatment or the serf treatment or not quite the slave treatment, but it's not exactly the opposite of that either. Now, of course, there are a lot of women who experience sexual abuse and and molestation as children who are going to have issues with healthy sexuality. I mean, especially if they haven't dealt with it through maybe talk therapy or something like that. And so in that situation, a man is going to take on a burden. And, you know, there's this fear that women have, which I kind of half get as a man. I half get it. And I get it's like a dim shape and in deep giant shape in the fog. It's kind of at the limit of my understanding, and if women can explain this to me better, I would appreciate it. I kind of get it, and I kind of don't get it. And the fear that women have is that they're damaged goods. They're damaged goods. Now, that's tough for men to get, because we're forged by being broken.

[15:19] We're forged by being broken. We fall off things, we get into fights, We get humiliated, we get crushed, we get told we suck, we don't make the team. So we're made from broken pieces. And when we are forged from broken pieces, as almost all men are, we are incredibly strong because of that. And the sort of gynocentric trying to get boys to not be broken is simply producing very weak and therefore dangerous men. So for men, because we go through the experience of we are assembled from broken parts and the assemblage of broken parts is stronger than each individual part that was broken, and that's where our strength comes from, women don't...

[16:05] Don't process things in quite the same way. So, I mean, all healthy men are damaged goods. We're damaged goods in the way that, you know, a steel sword is forged and melted and twisted and hammered and sparks fly out and it needs to be cooled and then it ends up this incredible weapon. So we are forged that way, but women who are hammered tend to break. Women, men who are are hammered, it's really the only way we can become strong. I know this is a big analogy time, and I hope that I'm getting things across. But again, as I said, this is sort of right at the edge of my understanding. So for men, being damaged goods is a plus. It means that you've risked things. It means you have the confidence to get knocked down, get back up again, and so on. But women have a deep, deep fear of being perceived as damaged goods. So a lot of women who have been molested or sexually abused or raped or sexually assaulted as children will hide that for fear of being seen as damaged goods. Now, please understand, when I'm talking about men getting stronger from being damaged, I'm not talking about sexual abuse. That doesn't strengthen anyone.

[17:22] And that is a very, very appalling situation. But, you know, I'm talking about taking risks and tumbling. Like if i was an investor in in a company i would if some guy came and said well i, i have you know a couple of successful companies i have a bunch of failed ones here are the lessons that i've learned i'd be like okay so this guy's got staying power he's going to stick with it and he's learned his lessons i wouldn't view him as a failure i would view him as somebody who has learned through the process of failure how to take appropriate levels levels of risk. I mean, it's the old cliche in hockey or any place, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. When you take shots, you miss most of the ones you aim at, but you miss all of the ones you don't aim at. And a man has to throw 10 spears sometimes to get a deer or whatever, right? So that's just knowing that's going to be the case is a reality. So a man who's not risked and failed It's not attractive.

[18:27] To women. But a woman who's been broken is sometimes too high a burden for a lot of men to take on. At least that's the perception. So I'm not, again, I don't really understand it too well, but there is this concern or fear about women of the damaged goods. And men are scanning for that as well. Men are scanning for that as well. Because a man needs a woman who's able to protect his children so that he can go out and hunt and fish and go to war and scout and all of these kinds of things. So a man needs a woman who's going to protect his children. And a woman who was deeply harmed as a child is often less able to protect her children and therefore less able to protect the man's children. And therefore his investment in them may not pay off as much if his children are brutalized or sexually assaulted or whatever, right? So maybe that has something to do. Men who are beaten up as kids often become pretty tough and aggressive. I may somewhat put myself in that category, but women who are assaulted as children don't respond usually in the same kind of way.

[19:44] So a man is going to look for signs of sexual dysfunction. Function now if the woman is hypersexual in other words if she have if she has the sexuality of a highly damaged man then he may partake of that but he won't commit to that because a woman who's highly hypersexual and by that i mean you know constant dirty talk and you know you're gonna I'm going to have to run my own back to the hotel. You got me hotter than Georgia asphalt. Well, a woman who's over full of lust is going to be unfaithful if he's away on a hunting trip. And so, like, if she's tortured by sexuality to the point where she's an addict, then he also can't be sure of his children, right?

[20:38] And of course, one of the things that would happen in the past is if there was sexual abuse within a family, maybe it happens now, but it happens less, I think. But if there was sexual abuse in the family, if a male impregnated a woman in her teens who was part of his family, then he might try to get her married off as quickly as possible to cover up the resulting child as being part of the marriage.

[21:04] Risks of Hypersexuality in Relationships

[21:04] And so a woman who's in too much of a rush and and is hypersexual or whatever is also a a risk factor because then he he may get a lot of sex but also the shadow side of hypersexuality is a dislike of of sexuality in the same way that everyone who's a drug addict both loves and hates the drug or needs and hates the drug is the same thing with hypersexuality but he certainly will have risks of paternity fraud or those sorts of issues if the woman's hypersexual.

[21:37] So again, these are all complicated things so that a man is going to look for a woman who's lusty but not hypersexual and hypersexuality also is a lack of sense of danger, right? So women who sort of throw themselves at men as a whole don't have any particular particular sense of danger and therefore will put him at risk with her sexual entanglements and and so on so yeah i mean i remember as many years ago i was on a vacation went on my own for two weeks to the dominican republic and read philosophy on the beach and played volleyball all day it's a beautiful time but yeah i remember going on one of these tourist tours and meeting these women who were just inviting everyone to come over to their house for a party afterwards it's like what are are you talking about? You don't know these people. Why are you inviting everyone over to your house? Just made no sense. It's just a bad idea.

[22:30] So, men are looking for women with a healthy relationship to sexuality, and anything that is a red flag for that is going to be something that men are going to shy away from. Because, again, as a woman, you have a constant called male lust, but men don't have quite as much of a constant called female lust. I mean, obviously, I do, but you know what I mean. So for women, the idea that a man is going to withhold sex or not want to have sex and so on is kind of incomprehensible, so that's just not a variable you have to work with. But for men, it's a variable that men have to work with when it comes to figuring out who to enter into a lifelong, monogamous, exclusive relationship with. I mean, if you had to take a job and then keep that job for the next 50 years, you'd be pretty careful who you worked for.

[23:30] So if you're in your mid-20s or you're 30 or, heaven forbid, you're in your 30s and you say, I want to wait till marriage, then a couple of things go through a man's mind. And again, I'm not talking about one night stands. I'm talking about the sort of literally wait until our wedding night. He's going to say, how has she been able to not have sex? Let's say you're 30. For 12 years as an adult, she's been able to not have sex. How is that possible? Right? It means that she's not particularly sexual or she doesn't have much sexual desire. Liar and then he's just gonna look forward to a life of begging and pleading and being rejected and being hypersexual and frustrated and what am i gonna do and like that's just like no no thank you like this that can't happen for for just about any any man who sees that ahead of time so yeah.

[24:30] No thank you. I mean, it's just not a life that men would want. I mean, unless they're masochistic, in which case they're kind of messed up too. Or if you're 30, and I just, I know I'm up from 25 to 30, but this just to make it a little bit more vivid. So let's say you're 30 and you say to a man, no sex before marriage. Okay. Are you a virgin? Again, if you are a virgin, it means that sex is It's not a big motivator for you. You don't happen to be a particularly lusty person, which is fine. I mean, I guess assuming all your hormones check out, but for whatever reason, there's a bell curve with this sort of stuff as well, even among people who aren't traumatized. But if you are not a virgin, then you have imposed a no sex before marriage rule on new men, but not older men, other men from your past. So, let's say you've had three sexual relationships and then you come up with a no sex before marriage. Well, that's not really going to work. Sorry. I mean, sorry, I've just got to be honest with you. As the old saying goes, that is like trying to raise the price of a used car, right?

[25:44] So if you are not a virgin, and this doesn't have to necessarily mean vaginal sex or whatever, but if you've engaged in, I'm just going to use that sexual activity as a whole. If you've engaged in sexual activity in the past, and then with new men, you're like, no sex before marriage, that is not, it's not going to work. I mean, not with a high quality man. It's not going to work.

[26:04] Because you didn't have that rule in the past, right? It's the old joke about like, I'm a born again virgin. If I don't have sex for seven years, I'm a born again virgin, right?

[26:12] Dating Expectations and Red Flags

[26:13] It that's some sort of rule i think it's in catholicism something like that it could just be an urban myth so please don't take anything i say on this with any seriousness at least this part but yes it's just not going to work it's just not going to work i mean for a wide variety of reasons so you want the very highest price which is marriage for sexual activity when you you gave it away for free before now if and this is not credible to men it's not credible to men like you you gave away your sex before and now you're demanding a lifelong commitment for the same sex that you gave away for free before it's it's something that i don't know if women notice this but i'll tell you what doesn't work i mean this is just my sort of free dating advice and i'm absolutely certain about this this i'm going to give you ladies are going to give you this free dating advice. And this I'm absolutely certain about.

[27:12] So what you'll see a lot of times when women are on dating apps and so on, and these are pictures that I see, obviously I'm not on any dating apps, but what you'll see is women who say, you know, I'm ready to settle down. You better bring a real commitment. You better be man enough to handle my kids. And what the women are doing is they're desperately trying to say, I am high value through words.

[27:44] You better step up and be ready to handle everything that I have to offer. You know, I'm a queen, I'm a this, I'm a that. And they're trying to raise the value based on just attitude.

[27:59] And honestly, as men, we could care less. Like, it doesn't matter to us. It's just noise. We don't care. We are relentlessly empirical. empirical so if you are a man looking at a woman's dating profile and she's got a lot of red flags, and yet she says you know you better treat me like a princess and you better do this and you better do that but she's got red flags we her rating herself highly despite having a bunch of red flags it's just another red flag like all you're doing like if you say geez i've made some some real mistakes. I've learned from them. And, you know, I'm going to humbly move forward in this world, looking for a man of quality while recognizing that there are these red flags. That's, I can respect that. And men can respect that. We may not necessarily marry, but we would at least respect that. And maybe we'd go out on a date because that's some sort of self-knowledge. But a woman who's, you know, got a cavalcade of red flags, who then demands to be treated like some pure, virgin, wealthy queen from Stalingrad. I don't know. I mean, it's crazy. And men will not be interested in that for anything longer term. I mean, you have red flags. Be honest. You have red flags.

[29:17] Be honest. You have red flags. You've made mistakes. You've done things that are bad, that are wrong. And we can sympathize with that. As men we've also done things that are bad and wrong and made mistakes and so but yeah not like refusing to admit that is crazy.

[29:32] It's crazy I mean for women it's the equivalent of a guy who's.

[29:40] Profile says you know he's got swastika tattoos and lives in his car in the backyard of his his mother's place and she cooks all of his meals and he's 35 and he demands a virginal supermodel with an hourglass figure who's also top tier mensa member i mean it's delusional right you you if you don't have a reasonable sense of your own sexual market value you're doomed in the dating market market that doesn't mean you won't date it just means you won't get commitment and of course one of the ways in which the dating market is entirely disrupted is to say to women that all of your standards are confidence and to say to men all of your standards are phobic or dysfunctional or toxic or you know women can have standards men only have prejudices this is kind of a boring thing to say because it's so so obvious so if you're this is to the original writer of the question and i really do appreciate the question.

[30:38] Impact of Modern Society on Relationships

[30:38] And I sympathize with the challenges. And it's not like we're all the authors of our own misfortune because all of our sort of ancestral wisdom has been stripped from us through appeals to hedonism and debt and all of that and ridiculous excess. We are basically people who've been given a million dollars in what turns out to be counterfeit money. And it's a way of just completely messing up with people's emotional, mental, and even physical systems.

[31:06] On this rollercoaster, right? I mean, imagine if you live for a year thinking you've got a winning lottery ticket for $10 million or a Bitcoin, and you live for a year waiting for the hubbub to die down before you go cash it in, and then it turns out you got the numbers wrong. It's going to kind of mess up your life, right? You're going to live that year on a weird helium high, and then you'll get a crash and maybe have to beg for your job back and be bitter, and it would be better for you to have never played the lottery to begin with. And it's the same thing with what's going on in society that people are told, particularly women are told to have high expectations and you call yourself a 10 physically, no matter how you look.

[31:48] You know, like these videos of these guys saying to women, does height matter? And they're like, yeah. And then he says, step on the scale. He puts down a bathroom scale, says we'll step on the scale. And she's like, I'm not doing that.

[32:01] And he says, well, if height matters, then weight matters. No, it's different. different. A man should love a woman for who she is. And it's like, well, a woman should love a man for who she is and forget about the height. No, no, no, no. I don't, the height doesn't have to be absolute. He's just got to be taller than me. And then this guy who himself is tall, but slender says, yeah, okay, well, weight doesn't have to be absolute. I just want a woman who weighs less than me. So get on the scale. And they won't get on the scale. And he says, then you've got to withdraw your height requirement because you won't submit to a weight requirement. And she's like, like, no, I won't. Right. So again, for a woman to have standards is to be empowered and for a man to have standards is to be vaguely abusive and toxic and dysfunctional. And I mean, it's obviously kind of dull to talk about because it's so obvious, but so if you are an older woman in your mid late twenties, thirties, whatever, right. And I don't mean that mid twenties is older, older. I'm just talking about relative to sexual maturity and history when we would get married in our teens and have sexual activity and start making babies in our teens. If you're an older woman and you are demanding sex before marriage, all the man knows is that you have either had sex with men in the past where you didn't have this requirement, in which case you're asking for far more while delivering far less.

[33:21] Please understand this. you're asking for virgin treatment without delivering virginity so you are raising the price.

[33:33] On something you've already given away for free and could now give away free which just makes men kind of skeptical also for men again this is just for for the women i suppose but it's kind of important to understand how we reason through these things and we are very good at reasoning through these things. But if you are a woman, let's say you're 25 and you've had three significant, like let's just say you've had three fairly long-term relationships, you're 25, If in those relationships you were sexual and you and your partner had a healthy sex life and then he left you. So if you're an attractive woman and you have a healthy relationship to sexuality, then the man left you. Well, why would a man leave an attractive woman with a healthy relationship to sexuality? And again, I'm going to assume intelligence and all of that is baked into this. But why would your boyfriend leave you? Well, if a man is with an attractive woman who's a good conversationalist and he's getting regular sex that's passionate and enjoyable and all of that, well, I mean, then why would he leave? Well, that's a red flag, right? Now, the red flag could be that you are sexually cold and that's why the man left. Well, then a man doesn't want to step into those shoes, right? A new man. Because it's just going to be frustrating and sort of pointless, right? Now, maybe you could find a man with a lower sex drive, and there are men who have lower sex drives, for sure.

[35:02] And as a woman, if you're not particularly interested in sex, you can find a man who's not particularly interested in sex. The problem being, of course, that women tend to want men who are very successful. And very successful usually has to do with high testosterone. Very successful usually has to do with high aggression channeled into ambition and so on. And so a sort of fairly flaccid low-T man may be more compatible with a woman who doesn't have much of a sex drive, but then he's not usually going to succeed much at all in life, and there's going to be that issue of paying the bills and respect from success and all that kind of stuff.

[35:42] Addressing Challenges in Modern Dating

[35:42] So, yeah, it's a challenge. Now, of course, how do you answer this challenge? How do you answer this challenge? Sure. Well, if you think of the way it used to be back in the day, I mean, even as recently as the 50s, right, in many places, I mean, prior to the welfare state, the birth control pill and debt, massive debts and all that, unfunded liabilities at the yin yang, not counting World War II, which of course was colossal debt. that. But if you think about how it used to be, is that you would have, let's say, a young man and a young woman who are 18 years of age, who, you know, they want to get on with their lives, they want to get married, they want to have sex. So, you know, they date for a couple of months, and then they get married a month or two later. So they're waiting five months. Okay, well, we, you know, people can wait five months, right? That's fine. And then it's reasonable. And then they pair bond based upon sexual activity, right? Because pair bonding and sexual activity go hand hand-in-hand. I've talked about this years ago in a presentation called The Truth About Sex, where the more sexual partners a woman has, the more likely she is to divorce the man.

[36:45] So that's how it used to be. You'd wait for four to six months. You'd wait for four to six months, and then it would be great. And even back in the day, like I remember doing this research for The Truth About the Wild West. So in the Wild West, you know, very Christian and all that, in the the wild west in america a third of marriages were shotgun marriages right so even if you did have sex before marriage again a third and it probably was higher but these are the third that were detected and you can tell this from the marriage certificate and then the birth certificate right is it a reasonable time away and you know so a third of them and again it's probably closer to a half but we'll just go with a third a third of marriages where the couple had sex and then they got married. Which, you know, it doesn't interfere with the pair bonding in particular, so that's fine. So that's how it was. You wait a couple of months, and even if you don't wait a couple of months, you still get married, and the pair bonding is good, and that works out. Now, you are in your mid-20s, late-20s, you're 30 or whatever, and you say to a man, you're going to have to wait, well, for how long? What's the average length of time between starting to date and a wedding night. It's usually two to three years.

[38:02] It's usually two to three years. So instead of saying, wait for four to six months, and it doesn't even matter that much. If we don't wait, we'll just get married anyway. Okay. As opposed to wait two to three years.

[38:17] And by the way, I've already been waiting seven to 10 years or 12 years, like if you're 30 from 18 to 30, right? And men are very suspicious of women who try to raise their value by playing hard to get out of their time, out of common sense, right?

[38:35] So it doesn't tend to work. Now, does that mean jump into bed? No, of course not. That doesn't mean jump into the bed.

[38:41] Importance of Getting to Know Each Other

[38:42] A lot of women talk about a three-month rule. Again, three months is kind of in accordance with how long it would take to date and get married. And, you know, even if you had sex and the marriage was a month later, nobody particularly cared. It was okay. I mean, if you didn't marry the girl, that would be a different matter. But if you did, you know, people were like, yeah, kids will be kids, whatever, right? Young people will be young. young so if you have a three-month rule and say yeah it's it's important for us to get to know each other and you know i love sex as much as the next girl but maybe more but you know i want to make sure it's you know that we like each other and have at least some compatibility in terms of long-term goals or whatever right i mean okay that's within the bounds and i think that the important thing too is to express lust towards a man like i just want to rip your clothes off to express lust towards a man and then control it is actually very attractive right obviously because it's high iq it's deferral of gratification and so on so waiting is uh is a good thing in in this kind of relationship waiting for years is a huge red flag for a man because as i said before getting into a relationship with a woman who doesn't particularly enjoy tearing your clothes of is a recipe for disaster.

[39:59] Consequences of Lack of Sexual Compatibility

[39:59] And it's not just disaster in the bedroom. It's not just disaster in the marriage. It's a disaster professionally.

[40:06] It's a disaster professionally because you can't feel like an alpha if your wife doesn't love sleeping with you. Like you just can't feel like an alpha because you're being rejected at home. So it's a catastrophic failure. And other other men can sort of sense this coming off you. And so, yeah. And you end up kind of desperately flirty or, I don't know, porn addictions or whatever it is, affairs. It's just a giant mess and horrible all around. So I hope that this helps. And sorry, I couldn't be more clear about it, but there's a lot to deal with in this kind of situation. But I hope this helps unpack it to some degree. And of course, I really, really do appreciate everyone's time and attention to these matters.

[40:48] Conclusion and Appreciation

[40:49] Very, very important stuff. I love philosophy because it's the all discipline. You can talk about just about everything. So I really do appreciate your time and attention. Have yourselves a wonderful day. I guess I'll talk to you guys in about half an hour. And I appreciate your support at freedomain.com slash donate. Take care. Bye.

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