0:00 - Introduction
3:58 - Childhood Neglect and Abuse
10:37 - Impact on Biological Children
18:09 - Brother's Dating Life
21:48 - Brother's Relationships End
26:32 - Brother's Virtuous Qualities
30:47 - Taking in the Neglected Child
35:25 - Lack of Recent Meaningful Conversations
35:38 - The Longing for Marriage
46:25 - Uncovering Avoidance and Resentment
56:07 - Revisiting Family Dynamics and Neglect
1:07:31 - The Search for Love
1:08:45 - The Dangers of Expressing Desperation
1:12:29 - The Motive Behind Withholding Love
1:14:15 - Virtue in Loving Others
1:16:08 - The Harm of Neglectful Parenting
1:38:41 - Childhood Memories and Manias
1:50:13 - Learning to Limit Desires
1:59:19 - Frantic Installation and Missing Flights
2:01:23 - Problem-Solving Adventures and Challenges
2:05:33 - Challenges and Asymmetry in the Tech Industry
2:07:18 - Overcoming Challenges and Unstoppable Forces
2:15:00 - Dealing with Burnout and Boosting Focus
2:19:10 - Sharing Risks and Rewards in Business
2:24:13 - Embracing Competition and Thriving in Business
Stefan opens the conversation by addressing a caller's challenges related to family dynamics after taking in a neglected child. The discussion delves into the complexities of supporting the adopted brother, who struggles to settle down despite being in relationships. Stefan emphasizes the need for deep conversations to understand the brother's goals and motivations, urging the caller to prioritize connection despite busy schedules. The caller also shares plans to propose to their girlfriend, highlighting the importance of active involvement in personal relationships amidst family complexities.
As the conversation progresses, Stefan emphasizes the significance of meaningful interactions and genuine care in fostering connections with loved ones. He explores the concept of actively showing love rather than solely seeking it, emphasizing the depth of relationships beyond surface-level interactions. The dialogue prompts introspective reflections on childhood experiences, family dynamics, and the complexities of seeking and giving love in relationships.
The discussion delves into morality, virtue, and self-reflection, as Stefan and a caller exchange thoughts on unpleasant tasks and parental neglect. They analyze the impact of childhood experiences on self-perception and the challenges of navigating family dynamics. Stefan shares insights on empathy in parenting, advocating for teaching children the value of offering contributions rather than resorting to manipulation tactics. The conversation widens to entrepreneurial stories, highlighting the grit and self-discipline required to overcome obstacles and pursue success.
In the tech industry context, Stefan discusses challenges such as intricate programming tasks, high-pressure situations, and burnout. He stresses the importance of persistence, problem-solving, and learning from challenges to thrive in the entrepreneurial journey. Addressing a caller's concerns about burnout in a self-funded startup, Stefan offers advice on workload management, funding constraints, and maintaining focus amid intense demands. The importance of maintaining a work-life balance and strategies for sustainable entrepreneurship are also explored.
Stefan concludes the conversation by emphasizing the value of delegation, sharing risks, and taking breaks to prevent burnout and ensure long-term success in business. He encourages listeners to embrace curiosity, seek learning opportunities across domains, and prioritize understanding to enhance relationships and personal fulfillment. Through practical advice and philosophical reflections, Stefan engages with callers on various aspects of business growth and personal development, showcasing a holistic approach to navigating challenges and fostering growth.
[0:00] Hello, hello, everybody. How are you doing? Got a little bit of time today. Thought I'd come in and say, Hey! Sounds like the beginning of a country song. So, yes, I just wanted to come in and say hi, everybody. And thank you, of course, for being donors. And I'm here if you have any questions, comments, issues, challenges, problems, whatever's on your mind. I am happy to help, happy to chat, and can be philosophy, can be personal, can be whatever is cooking in your nodules. I'm thrilled to help. I did have a wee something, a wee bit of something prepared. Should we have a slightly shy crowd today? So that is ready, but let me just give a pause here. Don't forget to unmute if you have any questions or issues or challenges to take a care of.
[1:05] Hi, Stef. Can you hear me?
[1:06] Yes, sir. Go ahead.
[1:08] How are you doing this afternoon?
[1:10] I'm well, thanks. How are you doing?
[1:13] I have a question about child abuse and child neglect.
[1:19] Sorry, is that background noise? Sounds like you're doing the dishes or something. Is that coming from you?
[1:23] Yeah, I am. I don't have very much time until I have to be somewhere else. My question is about child neglect. My parents were actually pretty great people. They took a severely neglected child into their home. They never officially adopted it, but he practically became one of my brothers. Now, obviously, when you take a severely neglected child into your home, There is an adjustment period, and there will inevitably be problems. So my parents sat us down, all our biological children, and they told us about their choice and the problems we were most likely going to experience, which indeed happened. Happened, he ordered candy in his room because he wasn't used to free available candy being around. He had some other behavioral issues, which of course were a problem for us and which caused some minor trauma for us. And I'd like to know your thoughts and opinion on that situation that happened.
[2:42] Can you tell me a little bit more about the problematic behaviors?
[2:48] Um, his mother was very, very sick. Uh, it was a degenerative disease. So the kid had, my brother had to take care of his own mother when he got home from school. Uh, he was a friend of my brother. So, um, when he got home from school, if he couldn't be with us, he would have to go home and take care of his mother. Now, obviously, since he was a kid, he preferred to go to my brother and come to our house. The behavioral problems he experienced were resistance to the authority of my parents, obviously, because they weren't his real parents. He ordered candy in his room. He was, we always make the joke that like a dog, he was food possessive. He didn't communicate any of his plans with my parents. So if he stayed somewhere else or if he went to any other place, he just wouldn't tell my parents. He sometimes wouldn't show up for dinner or lunch.
[3:58] He preferred his computer over people. So he avoided social interactions by fleeing into his computer, which did make him a very successful programmer now. So it wasn't all bad.
[4:17] Yeah, I think that covers most of it.
[4:20] Okay. And how old was he when your parents took him in?
[4:25] I don't know exactly, but I think he was around 10 years old at the time.
[4:30] And did he have any siblings?
[4:32] No.
[4:33] And where was his father?
[4:36] His father was the one that neglected him. So his mother was sick. She couldn't really do anything about it. And his father blamed him for, as in the pregnancy, making the disease worse.
[4:53] What? Sorry. He was blamed for 10 years? like he was 10 when the family his family finally collapsed his father blamed him for making the mother ill by being born that.
[5:07] That's what we think we never really talked about it with his father because he obviously defood his father now uh but uh we think that um his father either never wanted children in the first place and only did so because his mother wanted to before she got really sick, and that his father blamed him for making the disease worse or never wanted him in the first place.
[5:35] Okay, so his father and his mother were still together?
[5:42] At the time, yes. But shortly after he moved in with us, his father moved his mother to a sick people's home.
[5:54] And did she die shortly thereafter?
[5:57] Not shortly, but several years after.
[6:00] Oh, gosh. What was the illness?
[6:04] Multiple sclerosis, so a degenerative nerve disease.
[6:07] Oh, gosh. Yeah, that's, I don't know, part of me would rather get creamed by a bus on the highway than go through something like that. But all right.
[6:16] Yeah, at least it's quick.
[6:18] Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's the suffering that happens to others, to those around you.
[6:24] Yeah.
[6:24] All right. So was, in terms of father absence, so the father was there, but what, he just didn't take care of his sick wife?
[6:33] And he took care of his sick wife to an extent but my well by then brother and he was before we adopted him he was just mostly sent to his room uh put behind a computer and everything in the house was locked so uh it might even be that his room was locked and that he wasn't even allowed to come downstairs. I don't know that for certain.
[6:59] I know. Why was everything locked? I mean, is that something to do with multiple sclerosis?
[7:05] No, that was because his father didn't want him touching anything. No food, no candy, nothing.
[7:11] Oh, so the mother was dying and the father was insane.
[7:16] I would say evil, yes.
[7:19] Yeah, no, yeah. Certainly, I mean, deranged, right? We can certainly say deranged.
[7:24] Yeah.
[7:26] And so then you took the boy in, and do you know for how long, did you ever talk to the boy about for how long his father had been deranged? Was this something that arose more with the stress of the mother, or...?
[7:51] Most of his life. His mother was less ill until he was about six. But as far as I remember, she was bound to a wheelchair ever since my brother was about five.
[8:06] Right. Okay. Wow, that's a very, very tough situation. All right. So, sorry, I just wanted a little bit of background. Could you remind me of the question?
[8:17] Um uh childhood neglect because i my my parents obviously weren't perfect they they neglected their biological children to some extent, um which is i think to a certain extent inevitable and they also caused some trauma in us by taking in the boy because um my adopted brother was obviously damaged and some of that damage which reflected on us some of his behavior, was difficult for us to understand. So while I think they did a good thing taking him in, and they indeed stood up to child abuse in their direct environment, they took a huge risk bringing him in. And I wanted to ask your opinion and your thoughts about that.
[9:07] Do you think thatI'm sorry, tell me, have you talked to them about their reasoning behind bringing him in? Was it a Christian imperative? Was there some other moral or philosophical imperative that drove them to this place?
[9:22] Yeah, yes, they are Christian. And I think my mother found out about the situation through her work, because she works at the school most of the kids went to in our town. And I think my father eventually made the decision, okay, then we're going to take him in. But I'm not sure.
[9:43] Was your brother, was he Christian? Was he a believer? Is he that way now? Or what was his faith?
[9:52] I think he's atheist.
[9:54] As a kid, was he also atheist?
[9:57] Yes, I think so. I don't think his parents were religious.
[10:01] Right. Now, did your parents take him in with the idea or the knowledge that the harm that had been done to him was very likely to be irrevocable? And the term irrevocable, it doesn't mean, of course, that the person is going to have a terrible life or anything like that, but they can't undo the damage that was done. They can try and work with it.
[10:25] Yes, I think that that was their intention. And also to take him from a very bad situation, at least to not make it any worse.
[10:37] Well, I mean, that's the challenge though, right? I mean, the challenge is you can say, well, I'll bring in this very damaged child and maybe that will make that child's life better, but it makes your other children's lives worse. So it's hard to say, is there a net good in this kind of situation? So he did better, but of course he had his issues and he wouldn't respect your parents' authority and so on, and as you say, he wouldn't tell them if he was coming home for dinner. So he was, you know, obviously rude and disrespectful, I assume, to some degree. And how much did that negatively impact you and your blood siblings?
[11:30] I don't think it did that much since I'm the oldest kid. I was 14, 13, maybe 14 when he joined. But I think the younger kids might have been a little bit more damaged by it. I'm not sure. That's why I want your opinion on it.
[11:56] Yeah, I don't think that parents have the right to bring damaged people into the household.
[12:04] I don't think that's a reasonable thing to do, because if you were to say to the children, like, give them the facts, say, okay, this kid's really damaged, he certainly will be unrecoverable in the short run, right? Right. So maybe he goes into therapy when he gets older and so on. But, you know, he's he's pretty damaged. He's going to be hard to live with and so on. And you say this to your biological children and you lay out all the facts. Oh, and by the way, now you have to have a relationship with this guy for the rest of your life. So it's not like, you know, we all have our childhood friends and we often I don't I'm not friends with anyone from my childhood because that was in England. And, you know, I moved, I was moved to Canada and there was no real way to stay in touch back then. So, I mean, I still have friends from my early 20s, but I don't have any friends from my childhood. So it's not like if this kid turns out to be some kind of weirdo who's really difficult to get along with, you know, for reasons we can sympathize with, but it doesn't change the facts. If the parents lay the case out directly to the children, children, right? You're going to bring this kid in. You're going to have to have a relationship with him for the rest of your life. And he's pretty damaged. What are the children going to say?
[13:34] I don't think they ever gave us the question, and I don't think they ever took our input.
[13:38] That wasn't my question, what the children said.
[13:41] Oh, there was a rhetorical. The children. I think they'd be hesitant, yeah.
[13:52] Well, they'd say no. I mean, of course they would. What advantage is it to the children to have a disturbed child living under their roof that they have to interact with for the rest of their lives? I mean, I'm happy to hear. What's the upside to the kids?
[14:20] To the biological kids, there is no upside.
[14:22] I don't think so. I mean, what's the benefit? Isn't it all negatives? I mean, you were there. Were there benefits?
[14:38] At the time, no. I mean, now he's just another brother. He shows up for family events. We have a lot of fun. So yes, there are benefits now. But I think at the time, it was difficult.
[14:53] Okay, and what's the adopted brother's life? What's his life like as a whole outside of, you know, the fun that you have at the family events? How's his life going as a whole? Is he married? Does he have kids? Is he a good person? Does he contribute to his community in ways other than economic? I mean, what's his life like?
[15:15] Um, yeah, he's a good brother. He is a software entrepreneur. Um, he shows up to family gatherings for us. So he now sets my parents as, uh, parental figures, at least not as a biological parents, but as parental figures, he's virtuous. He has some trouble, uh, connecting socially though. He's working on that. I think he's going through therapy, though I'm not sure. And we have conversations about our youth and how things went. And he did through his father. So overall, he's progressing. But I also think that he was held back socially and has a lot of difficulties regaining that ground.
[16:06] That was an excellent non-answer. You answered everything that I said wasn't important and nothing that I said was important because I asked, does he contribute to his community? Not from just an economic standpoint, you say, well, he's an entrepreneur, so that's economics. And I said, outside of the family gatherings, how is his life going? And you talked about the family gatherings. So, you know, no problem. I'm just sort of pointing it out. But okay, does he date? Is he married? Is he, right? You say he's virtuous. I'd love to hear more about that. Uh, so yeah, I mean, how's his life going overall? I mean, in terms of like the personal rather than just the economic and functional.
[16:47] I think he's, he's dating. I don't think it's long-term.
[16:52] And what's his age range at the moment?
[16:57] Uh, early thirties. He should be 31.
[17:02] Okay. So what he's just dating around and not settling down and not dating anyone serious?
[17:09] I think he's mostly focusing on his uh on his job on his work on his career and i think at the moment dating is not a priority for him no.
[17:19] But you said he was dating.
[17:20] Yes he is dating but i don't think it's a priority for him sorry.
[17:25] I don't know what that means that.
[17:27] Means he's not actively looking for anything long term which would be no that's a different matter no.
[17:34] Hang on And so if I say, I'm learning how to play piano, but learning to play piano is not a priority for me, that's kind of a contradiction, right? Learning to play piano is not, in fact, a priority for me in reality, so I don't spend time on the piano. My wife does, I don't, right? So he's dating, but he's not dating with any seriousness. So he's going out with women and he's not pursuing anything serious. Is that right?
[18:10] Yes, that is correct.
[18:11] Okay. And do you know if the women he's going out with are roughly his age, like late 20s, early 30s?
[18:21] Probably slightly younger, because that's what women prefer, but I'd say roughly his age, yes.
[18:26] Okay. And do you know if he dates these women, telling them up front that he's got no real interest in settling down in the foreseeable future?
[18:40] I don't know about him not having any interest in settling down. I think he's focusing on his career. And knowing him, he'd probably be upfront about it. So, yes.
[18:50] So, you don't know?
[18:53] No, I think he would tell them. I think he...
[18:56] No, so you don't know. You're guessing. I mean, you know him, but that's not confirmed, right? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying you haven't asked him, hey, listen, you know, like you're... And I guess he's quite successful, right? He's a software entrepreneur, which doesn't always mean successful, but certainly he's right. So is he reasonably good-looking or fit, or does he have other positive attributes that women might want to date him for?
[19:25] He's good-looking, I guess. He's a bit skinny, but he's reasonably successful. He's intelligent. So, yeah, a woman would be attracted to him.
[19:35] Okay, so he's dating women in their late 20s and early 30s as a successful man, and those women are looking for what? What are they looking for, do you think, in their late 20s and early 30s?
[19:47] Well, I hope they're looking to settle down.
[19:49] Right. So they're dating him because I guess he's kind of a catch, and they're looking to settle down, and he dates with no real intention of settling down.
[20:03] I don't know that for sure, but I suspect so, yes.
[20:07] Sorry, I'm finding I'm running into these fog banks. I thought you said that he's not serious really about settling down. He's focusing on his career.
[20:16] I think we confirmed that we were guessing and that we didn't know.
[20:20] No, we were guessing about whether he's telling the women that he's not interested in settling down and he's focusing on his career. That's what we were guessing about. I thought you knew that he was dating.
[20:30] I know he's dating. dating, I don't know if he has the intention to settle down or not.
[20:38] Okay, but have you talked to him about what he wants, you know, out of life? Does he want to get married and have kids, or does he not want that?
[20:47] No, and now that you say it, I probably should.
[20:50] Oh, so you don't even know what he wants out of his life with regards to dating?
[20:55] No, I don't.
[20:56] So you're not really close at all, right? right no.
[21:01] We don't see each other that much well.
[21:06] What do you mean see each other you and i don't see each other we're having a conversation about something important what are you talking about why would it have to do with seeing someone there's all this technology that we're currently using to have the conversation yeah.
[21:19] That is correct uh he he is a bit avoidant of communication communication like that. So he's a bit more closed off, a bit more introverted. But as you said, I can just text him and ask.
[21:32] I mean, are you close to him? I mean, it sounds like you don't know a huge amount about what's going on in his life. Well, let me ask you this. How many women has he dated, say, over the last five years? And you may not know the exact number, but just roughly.
[21:45] Roughly half a dozen, maybe six.
[21:48] Okay, so he's having a series of short-term relationships. And do you know why they end?
[21:58] Probably because he focuses more on his career than on his relationships.
[22:05] Well, I'm not sure about that. So you don't know why they end, right?
[22:09] I don't know why they end, no.
[22:10] Yeah, I mean, some people could work very hard and still get married and have kids, right? I mean, I've been an entrepreneur, and I was also in a relationship, so it's certainly not impossible. So he dates these women, and do you know whether it's the women who end it or he who ends it?
[22:30] I don't know. I don't know.
[22:32] So why are we talking about this guy that you don't seem to know really much about? That seems kind of odd to me. I mean, he's a brother and you have fun at the family gatherings, but where the heck is the actual human connection? I'm not criticizing. I'm just a little bewildered. Like, you're asking me about this guy and you seem to know very little about him. I could get more information out of him in a 20-minute call-in.
[22:58] You've known this guy for 30.
[23:00] Years or 20 years.
[23:02] A little before that um, yeah yeah maybe i should just ask him directly now the the question come from the conversations i had with my parents about my own childhood and they've even started listening to your book on peaceful parenting now and it's absolutely brutal on them um yeah um so um.
[23:30] So, I mean, you're not close to this guy. You don't have any particular knowledge about his life. So, you know, and the reason, so the reason I'm asking is that as a, you know, relatively in-demand guy in his early 30s, if he's dating women, the women want to settle down. Most women in their late 20s, early 30s, they've had their fun, right? They want to settle down.
[23:55] And either he's and and you know of the sort of half dozen women they would want to settle down, and so either he's saying to these women who want to settle down i don't want to settle down but they keep dating him anyway in which case he shouldn't date them right or he's not telling the women he doesn't want to settle down in which case he's exploiting them as a high value male, You know, this is sort of like the women who, you know, they promise to date guys, maybe, you know, they're looking for the right guy, maybe it's them, and they, you know, the guys keep taking them out on dates, but the woman never commits. That's kind of exploiting, right? It's exploiting their attractiveness to get free stuff without any commitment. Commitment so you say he's a a virtuous guy and obviously i'm i'm happy to hear about that but i'm not sure if you don't even know how he's conducting his dating life which is pretty important i mean and again i'm not disagreeing with you maybe he is a really virtuous guy but uh what is it about him that has you believe that he's a virtuous guy.
[25:05] Yeah what i our conversations about christianity and how he how he at least is trying to improve his wife i think that if he were the data woman he'd at least be upfront about it and he at least would aim for a long-term relationship but that doesn't always mean that commitment works because of his own issues and maybe because of her issues as well.
[25:31] So he has dysfunctional relationships, to some degree?
[25:35] To some degree, yes. Yes.
[25:40] So you know that the definition of virtue is not having dysfunctional relationships. So I'll ask again, what is it about him that you feel... Now, maybe he's going to therapy, that's obviously a good thing and so on, if that's what he needs. But what is it about him... And I'm not disagreeing with you, of course, you know him infinitely better than I do. But what is it about him that you find virtuous? Thank you.
[26:06] I don't know exactly is it a virtue, but he is thankful and, how do you call that, reciprocal to my parents for taking him in. He now accepts their wisdom as parental figures. Even though he isn't religious, he even visits church when my parents, how do you call that, perform in church, speech in church.
[26:32] Give a sermon?
[26:34] Yeah, give a sermon. Um, he joins in the family gatherings and we have conversations, though it's a bit shallow because it's difficult to have deep conversations with a large group of people.
[26:52] Well, but you can bypass that just by calling him, right?
[26:56] Yes. And I probably should, now that you've mentioned that. I probably should.
[27:01] So, and again, I apologize for not understanding something. I'm sure it's easily explained, but I'm a little confused about how he's very nice to your parents and very grateful to your parents, which I understand, and I think that's a nice thing. But if your parents are nice and good, then why would it be brutal for them to read my peaceful parenting book?
[27:23] Because of their own childhood experience. For example, my dad is a rather typical boomer. Worked for the government his whole life. Now, he also did some good things. A lot of good things. For example, raising us. But he was still taught by his father that if his wife didn't obey, he had the right to hit her. I don't think he ever did. I only think he hit me once. once he immediately apologized thereafter. So I think they did the best with the knowledge they had. I think they did a reasonable job considering circumstances. And now that we have conversations about it, now that they've been reading and listening to your book on peaceful parenting, now that we, in the pursuit of self-knowledge, walk through my entire childhoods and they're walking through their entire childhoods to, find the source of their traumas. We also landed on the subject of my adopted brother and taking him in and how much of that was detrimental to their biological children.
[28:42] Right, and so you're, I mean morally speaking, your first loyalty is to your biological children.
[28:48] Yes, obviously.
[28:50] And so if you do something that is harmful to your biological children without asking their input, right? You said you were 14 or so when the boy came to stay, is that right?
[29:02] Yes. Okay. Maybe a little younger.
[29:04] Okay. So let's say you were, I don't know, 12, 13, 14, let's say 13 in the middle, right? Okay. So you're 13 years old. You can absolutely be asked, do you want this boy to come and live with us permanently and be part of the family forever? Knowing that he's going to be difficult, there are going to be conflicts and problems and challenges, do you want that to happen? So you can absolutely be asked, right?
[29:40] Yes yes you can.
[29:41] And why were you not asked do you think.
[29:49] I think because the situation at his home was pretty dire. There was a very high level of neglect. And I think my father at the time made the decision to take him in permanently. Before that, he was, it might sound very familiar to you, to avoid his home situation, he was at our house a lot. And then come dinner time, he would just kind of hang around, hoping to get some dinner because he wouldn't get it at home. So we allowed him to stay for dinner. And then after dinner, he didn't really want to go home. So he'd stay with us as long as he could. And then at some point before the street lanterns turned on, we had to send him home. And then it ended up being he also came over for breakfast because his father locked all the cupboards.
[30:47] So uh at a certain after a certain time the only thing he didn't do at our house was sleep and then my parents found out about the neglect and the abuse obviously so the call to make him actually sleep at our place wasn't even that uh much of a transition anymore right.
[31:06] Okay and did your parents i mean obviously to to lock up food would be i mean illegal you you have a child at home and you're not allowing the child to get food, that would be a form, I'm no lawyer obviously, but I would imagine that would be a form of child endangerment or harm to the child's health and so on. So was there any talk of getting the authorities involved to make sure that the child was taken care of, maybe outside of adopting him?
[31:37] Yes, there definitely was, but I think the authorities are, well, let's just say incompetent and somewhat impotent in that matter.
[31:48] Hmm, okay. So your father worked for the government, but also believed the government was incompetent and immoral?
[31:55] He's a boomer. Yeah.
[31:57] No, I get it. Yeah, I mean, so are you happy to have this guy in his early 30s? Are you happy to have him as a stepbrother or a brother? Are you happy to have him as a brother? And looking back, are you happy that your parents took him in?
[32:21] Yes, yes, yes, I do. I think it's admirable what they did. I like having him around. And just like me he has a lot of drive to improve things uh he was in the same as i am he's into self-knowledge uh so we have that in common and we talk about it don't even talk about.
[32:42] Stuff what are you talking about.
[32:43] Well we haven't we've both i've been uh running after my career and my family he's been running after his career so we haven't been talking that much lately no that is correct Okay.
[32:55] Come on, man. Don't give me this mealy-mouthed nonsense. Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh. But, oh God, if I had a dime for everybody who made up this nonsense about why I'm so busy. Yeah, you're busy, I'm busy, everyone's busy. You're not too busy to have this call, right? So you could be talking to your brother instead. Don't tell me this. I hate these excuses. I really do. And it's not personal to you, and I apologize for the harshness. It's not personal to you. But the people who blame circumstances for what is clearly a choice are copping out horribly. You know, so why haven't I talked to him? Well, he's busy, I'm busy. Oh, come on. That's not the case. you're not having the conversations for some reason, and to ascribe it to being busy is not true. It's just not true.
[33:46] I should have left for my spinning class five minutes ago.
[33:50] Well, look at that, right? So you're able to make priorities, right? So you'd rather go to a spinning class than find out how your brother is doing.
[33:58] Yeah, that's pretty bad.
[34:00] Well, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I just don't like this excuse. Look, I get if you're thrown into some concentration camp, yes, there's a good reason for you not to be in contact. But with all of this communications technology, texting, video, audio, right? I mean, it's ridiculously easy to stay in touch and to have conversations. So when was the last time you had any kind of deep conversation about your brother and his life and his choices? Not this generic self-knowledge stuff, but, you know, what does he want out of life? Does he want to get married? Does he want to have kids? How is his dating going? Why does he break up with the girls? Do they break up with him? When was the last time you had a deep and meaningful conversation with your brother about his life?
[34:47] Not those subjects, but we talked about three weeks ago at my grandmother's birthday.
[34:53] Okay. What about his life? Because, you know, you're asking me sort of to, in a sense, to evaluate the decision to have him in the family. And to do that, I have to do some evaluation of him. And I'm telling you, man, every question I ask, and they're not the only questions to ask, but every question I ask, you didn't know the answer to. I'm not blaming you. I'm just saying that that's a fact, right?
[35:13] Mm-hmm.
[35:16] So, have you ever asked your brother what does he want out of his life? What to him would be a successful life?
[35:26] Not for a while.
[35:27] Okay, so when was the last time you had conversations about that?
[35:32] Probably, I think it was even a while before COVID, so five, maybe seven years ago.
[35:39] And seven years ago, when you asked him what did he want out of life or what would he consider a successful life or something like that, what did he say?
[35:47] He said he wanted a career in IT, his company to do well, and he wanted a permanent relationship.
[35:57] Okay, so I assume his company is doing all right?
[36:00] His company is doing very well, yes.
[36:02] Okay. So for seven years, you've known that he wants to, permanent relationship, I mean, I don't know what people, he wants to get married, right? He wants to settle down and get married, right? And does he want kids, or did he want kids back then, or has he ever mentioned anything about that?
[36:17] I don't know if he wants kids. I think he does, but I don't know. Okay.
[36:21] So seven years ago, he told you he wants to get married. And how have you helped him achieve that goal over the last seven years? Because you're family, right? So you should look out for each other and you should really help each other. And also, you know that he had a lot of difficulties with social stuff and he was neglected and so on, right? So how have you been helping him? Have you been checking in with this goal? And, you know, he keeps dating these girls and breaking up. Up so how for seven years your brother your brother has wanted to get married and what have you done to help him achieve that goal or check up on his progress towards that goal well i guess the goal is not working because he keeps dating and breaking up which is actually moving away from marriage because he keeps getting his heart broken which makes him tougher to it's tougher to trust it's tougher to pair bond and settle down so for seven years and i'm not trying to be harsh i'm just genuinely curious right for seven years your brother has said this is what i need to be happy, is to get married. And he keeps dating girls and breaking up, which means he's moving further away from pair bonding. So what have you done to help him achieve his goal, knowing all the difficulties that he had growing up that would stand between him and that goal?
[37:31] I wasn't the only one, but we suggested therapy. I pointed him to watch your show, The Pursuit of Self-Knowledge. But I haven't asked anything about his relationship with women.
[37:42] So you sent him to me and to a therapist?
[37:46] I didn't send him.
[37:48] No, but you suggested it.
[37:50] Yes.
[37:50] So you wanted other people to have the meaningful conversations with your brother?
[37:58] I guess, yeah. I guess I avoid the dad.
[38:03] I mean, you understand the problem is that, well, he makes me laugh at family gatherings. You know, come on, man. You're his brother. He's had these huge difficulties growing up, and he's missing half the happiness in his life. Are you married? Do you have kids?
[38:26] We really should have told my girlfriend, but I'm about to propose.
[38:29] Those well congratulations um so you're in your mid-40s i'm.
[38:37] In my early 30s i'm 33.
[38:42] Okay sorry i thought i thought the sorry i made that mistake i i but you're um so you're 33 okay so sorry that was my bad math i i got the four 13 years but it was 13 he was 10 Okay, got it. Well, congratulations for that. So you are, I assume she's going to say yes, you sound like a wonderful fellow. So you are able to achieve what he wants, but you haven't helped him directly or asked him questions about his progress. And it's not a big criticism, but you know, you've listened to this show where we have deep conversations all the the time which is simply to say loving conversations deep conversations are loving conversations right and do you love your brother well.
[39:32] Kind of hard pointing out now that you asked about his virtues but yes i would say i love him.
[39:39] Okay so if you love him don't you want to help him achieve what he wants in particular in the areas where he has difficulties and you have skills Absolutely, yes.
[40:20] I don't know. I probably have been avoiding it for some reason.
[40:24] Okay, but you do know. Sorry, you know, everyone says that. Oh, I can't possibly know. I'm going to ask again. Okay, it's this, right? So, why? I mean, if you love him, you don't want to see him suffer, right? And you certainly don't want him to, if he's treating these women at all badly, and I'm not saying he is, right? But if he's dating and not settling down, and the women want to settle down, he's not treating them well and you don't want that to accumulate in i'm not saying he is but if that's the case right or he's obviously he's choosing the wrong women if he wants to settle down but he breaks up with a woman every year on average then he's not dating the right women he's not choosing the right women which is bad for him right and it's bad for the women too because it breaks their heart harms their pair bonding you know it's not good for civilization as a whole for people to keep dating and breaking up right especially when they get into their 30s, I agree okay so and he's going to end up with less trust and more self-doubt because he keeps failing at something right, and he keeps failing at something that he really wants to succeed at and you've succeeded at it and you've listened to this show so, why wouldn't you sit down and say okay let's go over your dating how you're choosing these girls you know I've got some skills you've got some deficiencies I mean if you were starting a software company wouldn't he give you some help.
[41:50] I wouldn't recommend me starting a software company.
[41:53] No, no, let's do a hypothetical.
[41:55] It's percussive maintenance.
[41:59] If you were doing something in a field where he had real expertise and you were lacking knowledge, wouldn't he help you?
[42:07] He absolutely would, yes.
[42:08] Okay, so why don't you help him?
[42:15] I should. I don't know why I haven't. Probably because I feel uncertain about it myself.
[42:29] Uncertain about what?
[42:34] I don't feel as uncertain about proposing. I know my girlfriend is going to say yes. I know that I can't do any better. I know she can't do any better. I picked out a nice ring, picked out a nice venue, but I don't know why I've never asked a specific brother about his relationship with women.
[42:58] Well, you don't have to also be an expert to ask someone something. I mean, you don't have to have all the answers. It's just, you know, you said seven years ago, oh, my brother, you said you wanted to get married, and you keep dating and breaking up. Like, what do you think's going on, or how's it going, or what goes wrong with it? You don't have to have answers, right? Like, if somebody's ill, you don't have to have the cure to ask them how they're doing, right?
[43:29] No, I don't.
[43:32] Because it seems to me that this is a pretty shallow relationship. And so, if this brother was brought into your family, and there was some significant negatives, less so for you because of your age, but more so for your younger siblings. So, if the boy was brought into your family, and there was a lot of problems with that, and then you end up with this shallow nothing burger surface level relationship, then it definitely wasn't worth it. You know, the only way to make it worth it is to actually have a connected relationship with the man yes otherwise it was all negative and then this shallow goofy shit happens afterwards, At least be close. That makes it worth it, doesn't it? Otherwise, he's just some guy who hangs around at family gatherings. I also don't agree.
[44:23] I also don't agree. It was all negative. We had a lot of fun as brothers. But yes, I do agree.
[44:30] Did I say it was all negative? Sorry, maybe I misspoke. I don't remember saying it was all negative. I said there were some significant problems, which is what you told me. I never said it was all negative.
[44:41] No, it was a hypothetical. if it were all negative i think you said that but it doesn't really matter i think i agree with you i know i agree with you that i should strive to improve my relationship with him and have more often deep conversations about his goals.
[44:58] Well yeah maybe certainly more than once like more than once every seven years might be a might be a good plan yes yes you know i don't want to tax or burden you but maybe maybe more often than that and then i don't know the answer and but it's worth asking yourself or him. Like, why do you think we don't talk about these things? Why are we not close?
[45:18] Why are we avoiding it? Yeah.
[45:20] Well, why are we avoiding, in a sense, being related or being connected or, you know? Because, you know, he also might resent you. I would. I would resent you. I'm not saying I'd be right in doing that or whatever, but I'll tell you that I would absolutely resent you. If I had shared with you my desperate desire to get married, to be happy, and you knew about all the barriers I had as a result of neglect and then you sailed off and got married and didn't help me or ask me about it once, I'd be pissed. I think you're avoiding the avoidance. Like you're avoiding the inevitable results of leaving something for seven years because you of all people, probably better than anyone, knows the difficulties this guy faces with regards to, Pair bonding, right?
[46:10] Yes.
[46:11] So you, of all people, know his challenges in this area the most, and you don't talk to him about it at all?
[46:26] No, I really should.
[46:30] Well, he might be annoyed. Obviously, he can't speak for me, but I'd be pissed. Be like, well, I told you about this seven years ago, and it never crossed your mind. Like, why are you asking me now? Oh, I talked to this guy on the internet. Really? Never crossed your mind? Knowing that I was severely abused and neglected as a child, and I can't keep a girlfriend, you never thought to ask me how it's going or give me any feedback or anything like that. So where's that coming from? I mean, that avoidance, is it coming from your parents? Is that what's modeled? Do your parents not talk about anything? Is that why the book is, the Peaceful Parenting book is so tough for them? Like, where is this avoidance?
[47:12] Can you still hear me?
[47:13] Yeah, I can. Well, not if you were just talking, but I can hear you now. So where does the avoidance come from?
[47:22] Why does it not occur to you?
[47:23] Yeah, why does it not occur to you, given that you know how much about his neglect and abuse, why does it not occur to you to ask him questions about his relationships? We may have lost him. Going once, going twice.
[47:39] Oh, you haven't. I'm thinking.
[47:42] Oh, yeah. Sorry, I don't know. I just hear sounds.
[47:47] Sounds i i yeah well that happens when i think there's also the grinding of gears and, things imploding um it it could be his his resentment i i'm not saying he does it consciously but it could be his his resentment that that is somehow coming through and that's why we avoid the subject um.
[48:08] Well what about your parents do your parents talk to him sorry you said that he's solve things with your parents so do your parents talk to him about his life have you ever heard of anything like that have they ever said oh we had a conversation with your brother because you know we understood all of his his abuse and neglect as a child and we and we know he wants to get married and he keeps dating these girls and breaking up with them so have your parents had conversations with him about his life or his goals yes.
[48:34] They have yes but he is a bit avoidant about it. He doesn't tell a lot of people. He's a bit introverted in a way.
[48:45] Well, close. A lot of people are talking about your parents. I mean, you avoid so much even in this conversation. I keep having to cut through this fog. Like, this avoidance coming from somewhere. I wasn't asking, does he talk to a lot of people? It's your parents. You say he's fixed his relationship with your parents, which is good. So, they know his history, and being a bit avoidant, okay, well, so what? I mean, frankly, you're being a bit avoidant. That doesn't mean I give up on the conversation. I'm not pointing it out in a negative way, but it is kind of happening, right? So you're patient and you're persistent and you're curious, right? And this is important if you're going to get married, right? You're asking the girl tomorrow, again, yay, wonderful. But you need to figure out why you might have this avoidance about some basic conversations with people about their lives, especially when you know the challenges they face. Because if that shows up in your marriage, that's going to be very tough for your marriage. And yeah, so again, I'm not sure if he's still here or not, but sorry, I'll just pause here for a second.
[50:02] Oh, I muted myself again. Can you still hear me?
[50:06] Yeah, go ahead.
[50:07] I haven't yet figured out where the fog is coming from, but I think it is important that we want to progress our relationship to anything beyond what we have now, the very shallow...
[50:21] Yeah, you have less than nothing now, because he's got the pretense of a relationship without any particular curiosity or intimacy or caring. So do you think that you've been virtuous with regards to your brother, knowing that he wants this thing that, because of his childhood, is very hard for him to achieve, and you've ignored all of that for at least seven years?
[50:40] No, I should have done way better.
[50:42] Okay, so I think having that humility is really important. And listen, we all mess up with these kinds of things, and in the short run, it's a lot easier to avoid. void. But to me, it's like, okay, so your siblings had difficulties because your brother came to the family, and now nobody has any real connection with him at all, so the whole thing was a giant waste of time. If at least you get some connection out of it. I mean, he was neglected as a child, and your family is neglecting him as an adult. Do you see what I mean?
[51:14] Yes, we're repeating that pattern.
[51:15] So what's the point of all that? What was the point of bringing him in, this child who was neglected, in order to continue to neglect him and not talk to him about anything important?
[51:27] Well, at the time, it was my parents trying to be virtuous, being good Catholics, standing up, at least attempting standing up to child abuse in their immediate area. So they did their best. But I think that if we want anything positive out of it, we really have to work at it and have deeper, meaningful conversations with them.
[51:49] No, and I appreciate what they did. I mean, of course, they did it to some degree based upon the concept of the soul. Right, so in the soul there's always an unharmed person within, right, and physically, biologically speaking there isn't, right? There's no unharmed person, there's no unharmed ghost inside the mind of an abused child. And so they may have, based upon the concept of the soul and of prayer and of God healing and so on, they may have turned it all over to God, they may have prayed for him, but they wouldn't necessarily this is why I asked earlier, did they understand the kind of burden that they were taking on. And with the concept of the soul, then there is a possibility of infinite healing through prayer and all of that. And so, my guess is they probably underestimated the challenges that were occurring, that's number one. And number two, to stand up against child abuse means to say, this boy was neglected, we better teach him about closeness. This boy had parents who were fundamentally indifferent to him so we better not as a family let him go seven years without asking any important questions we don't want to reproduce to a smaller degree of course but we don't want to reproduce the neglect.
[53:05] That his parents inflicted upon him by not asking him questions he needed to be led to the green fields of human contact and we're not just going to abandon him to fix everything himself and to to just do his own thing, because that was his childhood. So I'm not sure that the foundational issues of the neglect have been solved.
[53:29] I'm fairly certain they haven't. I agree.
[53:31] Right. So, you know, that to me is the issue that you can do something about now.
[53:44] Okay, thank you. I now really have to go? I have to turn body heat into Bitcoin?
[53:49] Well, all right. He's going to sacrifice himself in the ink and pyre of minor GPUs. All right. I appreciate that. It's a great, great chat and great conversation. And yeah, just remember, like, don't just let people drift and bump and float around like a bunch of helium balloons. Like you really really do want to connect with people and ask them how they're doing my friends will know this uh perhaps annoyingly at times that i'm checking in with their lives and seeing how they're doing because you know it's fun to have fun but they're i'm sorry if the person who's talking if you're leaving if you could mute i'd appreciate that yes i.
[54:29] Wanted to tell you one more thing don't hold back on being harsh i really needed that.
[54:33] Okay you're very welcome and uh i i I want to be harsh, but I also don't want people to tip into self-attack, right? Because that doesn't help. That's just another way of avoiding closeness is to just self-attack, right? Okay, if you're done, if you could mute, I'd appreciate that. And I really do appreciate the conversation. But yeah, connect with people, man. Life's short. You know, we are shot from a cannon. And before you know it, we land in a grave and all our decisions have been made and nothing else is left to decide. And if you can decide, and you can decide, ask questions. Ask important questions. Don't just live on social media or on the surface or on video games or on media. Ask people important questions about their lives. What will make you happy? If you care about people, you want them to achieve happiness. And we all got to watch each other's back. Nobody's self-sufficient. I'm not. You're not. Nobody's self-sufficient. We evolved as social animals, which means we've outsourced a lot of our thinking and reflection to those around us.
[55:31] Out of the objectivism thing, there's this glorious self-generating, self-sustained heroes like the Howard Rourkes and the John Gaults and so on. That's all fantasy. They have as much realism as Superman. We are social animals and we've evolved that way. The social connections are very, very important. We are easily distracted by the detritus and details of the moment, and we lose the big picture all the time. And we need to be reminded of the big picture, and that's what philosophy is for. And that's where we really connect, and that's where the caring is.
[56:08] So don't let seven years go by without asking someone you care about how they're doing in what they desperately want that they have the most difficulty in that's not right and you can't get that time back and it leaves a lot of cynicism in its wake i mean how is this guy supposed to feel valued if his own family doesn't even bother to ask him how he's doing when they know exactly the difficulties he faces in the realm of relationships oh go to therapy oh listen to stuff. It's like, okay, those things are fine, but they're not exactly the same as, you know, a loving, caring friend or family conversation. You know, when you ask someone how they're doing, you say, you know, your happiness matters to me, you really matter to me. If all you do is make jokes and watch memes, then you're saying your depth and happiness and potential don't matter to me at all, and all I care about is distraction. Well, we can easily be distracted to death. The death of relationships, the death of connection, the death of intimacy, the death of curiosity, the death of love. You want to check in with people, ask them how they're doing, what's the big picture of their life, where they want to be in five years, how's the progress of their life, all of these things. And avoiding that, I mean, if you want to avoid that, okay, Okay, whatever, right? But it just means that.
[57:31] You don't really understand philosophy. And I would argue you don't really understand love. Love is not just having shits and giggles at a family gathering. Love is helping people achieve what will make them happy because you're better at some things and other people are better at other things. You know, everyone who says we don't need others, you know, just, yeah, build your own house, fix your own car, build your own printer, build your own from scratch Wi-Fi router, your own carpets. You're like, no, we're all completely interdependent on each other whether economically and psychologically, which is why it's so important to have good people around you. Bad people will mess with your head and turn you against yourself, and good people will help you connect with the behaviors that will bring you the most happiness. And we can't avoid the effect that people have on us. We can only choose that effect by choosing the people. And if you want to choose good people, you have to be a good person. And that means if you know somebody has a psychological wound from their childhood, which you don't have, and you've known them for 30 years, 25 years, then you should help them. Shouldn't you?
[58:41] I mean, if you're out with a friend hiking and your friend twists his ankle, don't you at least get him a stick or help him back or give him a shoulder to walk on because his ankle's twisted or something? I mean, you don't just walk on like nothing happened, do you? Except this guy does and this family does this this kid was wounded as a child and of great sympathy for that, the family was not wounded in the same way so they should help him just taking him in and that's good i'm not saying that's unimportant but yeah don't don't let time go by don't let life go by without telling people how much they mean to you and how much you care so all right appreciate that anybody else with anything that's on your mind i'm happy to hear just don't forget to unmute, Maybe people are at work. All right. Well, listen, I do appreciate it. Sorry, go ahead.
[59:46] I was going to say, you brought up love here. And it's hard to, I've been trying to wrestle with what it means to be loved. And you're kind of cutting out in and out there because it's something I'm currently struggling with and kind of unwinding the lack of it.
[1:00:13] Yeah, you're going to need to give me a little bit more detail. That's very abstract. I have no problem with that, but you're going to have to break it down a little bit for me, brother, if you could be so kind.
[1:00:23] Well, you know, it's me again from the sexless marriage conversation. That was kind of the salient point, like, oh, you've never experienced love. It's like, you told me that, and that really hit me like a backtrack. And i've been kind of unwinding from there and, we had then talked about my sister, and how i defended my parents when my sister was upset you know in the future conversation and now i'm thinking about my brother and how he He was a social pariah growing up. And it's all coming back to that same one point. Like nobody's experienced love in my family. And even today, I was just kind of journaling about it. And I owe my brother a big apology, because I treated him just like I treated my sister, thinking there was something wrong with him when he was just responding to a lack of love from what I can tell.
[1:01:46] And how did you communicate that to your brother?
[1:01:50] I haven't yet. I mean, this literally just...
[1:01:52] No, no, sorry. When you... Sorry, I was completely unclear. Sorry about that. How did you communicate to your brother that he was deficient when he was a social pariah as a child?
[1:02:03] We were actually having a fight because he had moved in with my parents and which kind of disrupted our relationship, me and my parents' relationship. And it came up and I said yeah you've always been a, kind of a social problem like you never really got in with the group you, were the guy who's poking at people just kind of nasty not aware of a group dynamic and not playing along with it, and he was upset about that and I'm thinking about it I'm just getting curious about it why would you do that?
[1:02:58] Sorry there's a lot of ambiguity in what you said was he blind to social dynamics but you also said he was mean so was he clueless or cruel or both?
[1:03:08] I think it's hard to say Hey, I don't know.
[1:03:14] No, you said it. I mean, you said it to him, so you must have had some thought behind it. How was he cruel in social situations?
[1:03:24] He would just do the unpopular thing on purpose. Yes.
[1:03:30] Okay, but I'm not sure. Can you give me an example? I never know how to follow these abstractions that everyone uses.
[1:03:35] Right, right, right. So I remember at summer camp when there was just a group discussion, and he was talking about women and submarines for something stupid like that. He's just going to say the unpopular opinion on purpose to get flack from people. He's like, well, I don't think women should be on submarines. Who cares? You're just making everyone upset because they all, whether they're right or wrong, think women can go on submarines. You standing up for that has no benefit, and now I feel the obligation to defend you in your position.
[1:04:22] Sorry, I'm a little confused. What do you mean? He doesn't believe that women belong on submarines. So he's being honest. So what do you mean? It has no benefit. You're saying he should just lie and that's the benefit. But if he tells the truth, there's no benefit in him telling the truth.
[1:04:41] From a social standpoint, he's setting himself up as the outcast. And then I have to be the outcast with it.
[1:04:49] So he's setting himself up as the outcast So people who want you to lie Will not like you if you tell the truth I mean isn't that You think that's a bug Isn't that a feature.
[1:05:00] No that's why I think I owe him.
[1:05:02] An apology Why would you want to be in a group That punishes you for telling the truth Correct Then the price to entry to the group Is self-erasure and self-destruction, I don't want to be in that group Right.
[1:05:17] Right, so I kind of come I came to this realization about like an hour before the show and I'm like people don't love like I don't think we've ever experienced love and he's just fighting for, someone to actually give a crap.
[1:05:40] Okay sorry I'm I'm being jerked around here like the tail of a kite I mean You just characterized your brother in a particular way, that he's like a troll who just wants to be the outcast and is making things really difficult for you, right?
[1:05:54] Right, and that was me mischaracterizing him.
[1:05:57] In the past, so this is not how you would characterize it now, but that was how you would characterize him in the past?
[1:06:04] Correct.
[1:06:05] Okay. So now do you have some respect for his ability to tell the truth, even if people crap on him about it?
[1:06:12] Yeah.
[1:06:13] Okay. And have you told him that? Oh, you said it was just an hour before the show that this realized?
[1:06:19] Right.
[1:06:20] Okay. Yeah. So a little tough to do that right then. Okay. Okay. So I'll tell you a terrible secret, if you don't mind. I know you have more to say, but I'll tell you a terrible but liberating secret. So the most common reaction for people who feel that they've never been loved is to try to search to be loved. I mean, it's just a natural thing. I'm thirsty. Well, I'll go get some water, right? I'm hungry. I'll get some food. I'm tired. I'll rest. So when we feel that we're deficient we look for something to fill that up with right, i've never been loved right this is freddie mercury's plaintive warble right can anybody find me somebody to love well he's actually wanting to give love and that's sort of a different matter that's why that song is so interesting it's not can anybody find me someone to love me so you feel unloved and your natural instinct and i understand that it's everyone's natural instinct, is to say, well, I haven't been loved, so what I need is to be loved, and that will fix it. Does that make sense?
[1:07:31] Sure.
[1:07:32] Sorry, I'm not sure. Sure is one of these things. Sure. It sounds like you disagree. You kind of agree.
[1:07:37] I agree with the logic. That would be the natural inclination.
[1:07:43] And it's the exact wrong thing to do. That's the exact wrong thing to do. If you have been unloved, the only cure is not to be loved, but to find a way to love others.
[1:08:02] Because if you are unloved as a child, you're in a passive situation. And if, as an adult, you put yourself in a passive situation, you have no control over your happiness. The only active situation is not to ask for love, but to provide love. Because otherwise you're on your knees begging, and I tell you, brothers and sisters, it is an extremely dangerous world to show your needs to.
[1:08:30] Because the moment you say, I'm miserable, I've never been loved, I just need someone to love me, well, people will exploit you. You don't bring good people who love you, you bring bad people who see your need and use it to twist and exploit you.
[1:08:46] Whereas if you say i want to love someone to fix not being loved i want to love someone to provide what you were denied that puts you in a situation of control of command of initiative and it does not leave you vulnerable to exploitation so it is understandable when people say i haven't been loved boy do i ever need someone to love me love me love me love me well the people will come in the predators will come in, the sociopaths and the nasty people will come in and say, ah, I smell the sweet scent of need. Great. Now I have someone to manipulate. I have someone to bully, get resources from, exploit, and that's when you get into pretty dangerous territory. Economically, psychologically, and from a relationship standpoint, it's really dangerous to show naked need to the world because it's like a, it's blood in the water for sharks.
[1:09:42] But then to find someone to love right you have to find someone who's virtuous in order to find someone virtuous you have to be virtuous to beg to be loved doesn't require that you be virtuous it only requires that you have needs but if you say i want to love someone then you have to find someone worthy of love which means you have to be virtuous as well because otherwise the person won't show up in your life if you're not virtuous if they're virtuous enough to be loved they won't show up in your life if you're not virtuous. And if they do show up in your life through some miracle, they won't respect your love if you yourself are not virtuous. It'll just be you'll be trying to manipulate them. Well, I'll love you, but you have to give me something in return. You know, I'll love you, but it's really a cover for me needing to be loved, and that's a cold transactional desperation to avoid suffering. So to want to be loved to put you in a position of weakness and being exploited, but to want to love others. To say that the solution to my not being loved is not to be loved now, which is impossible because I'm in a situation of need, not of virtue. And people can't love need.
[1:10:52] They can't love need, because need is desperate. And it's not refined. There's no discrimination. It's just need, need, need. And that's the kind of desperation to that. But if you say the solution to not being loved is to become worthy of loving others and discriminating and making sure that I give my love to a good person and so on that's the solution to not being loved is to love others not to be loved yourself so I just wanted to mention that I'm sorry I know you had more to say but I just wanted to point that out.
[1:11:28] No it's that's very relevant because it kind of flips the natural inclination on it's good.
[1:11:33] Sure kind.
[1:11:35] Of you need that uh yeah.
[1:11:39] Yeah having excessive needs is like eating your seed crops you're satisfied in the moment but you starve to death over the winter right.
[1:11:47] Yeah it it's just very weird growing up in that circumstance and then.
[1:11:55] Discovering it Everyone's so vague today.
[1:11:58] What circumstance? The lack of love, having neglectful parents, etc. And then you come around to the idea, oh, my concept of love and what it means to be loved has been wrong this entire time. Okay, now what?
[1:12:19] But the real question, I think, and that's a great question, I think the most foundational question is, why do parents withhold love? I mean, they know they shouldn't, right?
[1:12:30] Yeah.
[1:12:30] Say, is it important to love your kids? Everybody and their dog would say yes, right? So then the real question is, why do parents withhold love? What is the purpose? What is the goal? What is actually happening? Right. And your parents were neglectful, is that right? They withheld love?
[1:12:47] Yeah.
[1:12:48] So why? Why did they do that? They knew it was wrong. What's the motive? Too painful. Sorry?
[1:12:57] Pain avoidance, I would guess.
[1:13:00] Well, love is not pain.
[1:13:04] Right. But to, like I experienced this with my own child, Like being loving to her exposes the pain that I experienced earlier.
[1:13:17] So?
[1:13:18] Just bring it back.
[1:13:19] Hang on, hang on, hang on. No, no. So saying something's painful, there's no reason as to why it doesn't occur. I mean, is it fun to get your teeth scraped at the dentist?
[1:13:30] Of course not.
[1:13:31] No. I mean, but you do it. Is it fun to pay taxes? It's not, but you do it. Is it fun to work out? Often not. But you do it. And we say to our kids all the time, to only do what you want is hedonism. We say, oh, you can't just eat candy. Well, that's what I want to do. Well, you got to eat your broccoli because it's got better nutrition than candy, right? So first of all, we say to our children all the time, do something even though it hurts. And just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Well, I don't want to do the dishes. Well, you know, it's your turn and we all got to pull our weight and blah, blah, blah, right? So, if you say, well, parents don't do something because it's unpleasant or painful, well, they do lots of things that are unpleasant or painful, so that's not an answer.
[1:14:16] And also, they encourage their children and, in fact, might punish their children for only acting hedonistically. So, they have the value even of doing things that are the right things even when it's painful. And they know that it's the right thing to do to love their children. So, saying it's painful for them, that's why they don't do it, is not an answer. Sorry, I hate to be annoying, but it's not an answer it's.
[1:14:35] A lack of virtue on their part.
[1:14:39] No that's not enough either because a lack of virtue is not cruel to others, So, it is cruel and destructive. To me, at least, after sexual abuse, it's the most destructive, and I sort of make the case for that in my book, Peaceful Parenting, of course.
[1:14:58] So, a lack of virtue is a neutral state, right? So, if, let's say that I don't choose to give to some guy on the street corner, whatever, so I haven't actively harmed him, right? Now, if I punch him, I've actively harmed him, but if I just don't give him 20 bucks, I haven't actively harmed him. Now, let's say it would be better or nicer, virtuous, to give him 20 bucks. So, an absence of virtue is not the infliction of pain. It's just not helping. You know, if my friend, let's say that, you know, my friend has helped me move a bunch of times, and then he asked me to go and help him move, and I pretend I've got a shoulder injury or something. Now, I'm not inflicting, like, it's not like he can't move, right? He can just get other friends or hire movers or whatever, do it all himself if he can. So, I'm not directly harming him. I'm disappointing him and all that, but I'm not directly harming him by not being reciprocal. I mean, I may be harming the relationship in some ways, but it's not illegal to not be reciprocal, to not help your friend move even if he's helped you move. It's not immoral. It's not a violation of UPB.
[1:15:59] And so it's not, even if you're not nice and not reciprocal, it's not, quote, moral.
[1:16:08] You're not harming people directly. But neglect harms children directly, and everybody knows that. Everybody knows that neglect harms children, which is why, right, all the movies with good parents, the parents don't neglect the children, and everyone says, should you spend time with your children? Yes. Should you love your children? Yes. Do your children need you? Yes. Everybody knows the answers. So if you know all the answers, but you're neglectful anyway, why?
[1:16:31] Because they prefer it.
[1:16:33] Okay, but that's tautological. Why does someone do something? Because they prefer it. Well, but why?
[1:16:38] It's what they want to do.
[1:16:40] Okay, I get it's what they want to do, but why do they want, what's the purpose of them doing it? Why do they want to do it?
[1:16:45] To mess up their kids.
[1:16:47] Yeah, it's sadistic. So petty people feel power by provoking needs in others and refusing to satisfy that need. So, petty people can't have other people really want to spend time with them, or like them, or pursue them, or hold them in high esteem or value. So, what petty people do is they provoke needs in others, and then they refuse to satisfy those needs. And the easiest way for petty people to have other people need them and then not supply that need is to have children and ignore them. Because then you're in a constant position where the children want you they need you they're thinking about you and you feel like you're all kinds of important and valuable bureaucrats do this sometimes too like they invent all these laws and then you need the bureaucrats, approval and they get this satisfaction because they've created this barrier and then you need their approval and and so and so you you've got to defer to them and it makes them feel you know important and and powerful and all that so yeah to to create an artificial need or to create a need and then refuse to satisfy it is a fundamental power play of you know fairly contemptible people yeah.
[1:18:01] Well the issue i'm struggling with this now is like so my brother didn't lie about it and then i did and that.
[1:18:16] Okay how many times do i have to say stop being so abstract my brother didn't lie about it and i did What the hell are you talking about? Give me some details.
[1:18:26] Well, like I said, in the example, he was being honest about what he thought. I chose not to be honest about it. I chose to protect my parents and say, oh, there's something wrong with my brother. When he was, what appears to me like he was expressing his lack of love. Love like and i was trying to cover it up that's how i look at the relationship he.
[1:18:57] Was expressing his lack of love sorry i.
[1:19:02] He was and sorry was it was it new.
[1:19:05] Information that you said i don't remember it and sorry if i forgot.
[1:19:08] A new information that you went to your parents.
[1:19:10] And said there's something wrong with my brother because he doesn't think women belong in submarine.
[1:19:13] It was i thought he was being bad by being honest about that even though it was an unpopular opinion and my thought was why why try and rock the boat, what it was just trying to rock the boat i get it people submarines yeah yeah uh, But that whole thing that he wanted to, his whole inability to socially connect with everyone around him, that's probably the piece of the contextual piece.
[1:19:52] Sorry, I never know whether you're talking about the past or the present. His inability to socially connect with people around him. Okay, so this is your opinion about him in the past?
[1:20:01] Yes.
[1:20:02] Okay, sorry. I don't know if you're talking about your evaluations of the present, because you were just talking about how there was something wrong with your brother that you said to your parents. and I don't know if you're talking about then or now.
[1:20:12] Right, right. This is all in the past. This is me thinking about growing up with my brother in a church environment, social church environment. And he was always very unpopular because he would say unpopular things. I bring up the example of the submarine. Because on its face, what is the point of even talking about that? Who cares? And I'm looking at it from like a third person perspective going why are you even bringing this up and I'm trying to make sense of it sorry he's not bringing up.
[1:20:47] The submarine topic right other people are.
[1:20:51] Right he's bringing up someone I forget who brought up it may have been no it doesn't matter but it doesn't.
[1:20:56] Matter who brought it up but it.
[1:20:57] Wasn't him who brought it up right, what the heck is that sound.
[1:21:04] Everyone's on an.
[1:21:05] Airplane or something, But regardless, he was being honest. I was saying safe face for the sake of the group, and he was really just upset at the group.
[1:21:23] Right, because this is a group of Christians.
[1:21:26] Right?
[1:21:26] You said it was to the church?
[1:21:27] Right. You're supposed to show the love of Jesus here.
[1:21:31] Well, it's even more foundational than that.
[1:21:34] Right?
[1:21:34] Right. Doesn't doesn't. I mean, one of the most important commandments is thou shalt not bear false witness. Right.
[1:21:41] Right.
[1:21:41] So they should have respected him for telling the truth and they should have not punished him for telling the truth, because that's kind of satanic, isn't it? To punish someone for telling the truth.
[1:21:51] Yeah, it's it's ultimate hypocrisy.
[1:21:56] So he was right and moral and good and noble and true and Christian in every sense.
[1:22:04] Right.
[1:22:05] Okay, so you sided with the hypocrites and the semi-devilish people against your own brother.
[1:22:12] Right.
[1:22:12] Okay. And what did your parents say when you brought this to their attention?
[1:22:17] Oh, I haven't brought it up to their attention.
[1:22:20] No, sorry. I thought we were talking about the past. See, now we're in the present again. Okay, so no. No, I'm talking about when you went to your parents.
[1:22:27] I never mentioned it to my parents.
[1:22:29] No, but didn't you say to your parents this? Oh, my gosh, this is such a confusing conversation. Didn't you say to your parents that there was something wrong with your brother, like back in the day, because he couldn't get along with people?
[1:22:42] No, I never said that.
[1:22:43] Oh, my apologies. I must have misunderstood something. I thought you had gone to your parents and said that there was something wrong with your brother because he couldn't get along with people.
[1:22:53] I did i say i have to rewind it.
[1:22:56] No no if you didn't like even if you said it and didn't mean it or i misinterpreted it doesn't matter because i don't want to obviously base anything on something that you didn't say or don't believe so okay yeah.
[1:23:06] Yeah it, our relationship like it was always tenuous because that social dynamic that he was always he's quote-unquote rebelling i don't mean that in the rebelling from the context or the sense of the social group like oh he's just the guy.
[1:23:25] So why do you think you were why do you think you were so sensitive to the social group and to social disapproval you're an older brother right.
[1:23:34] I'm younger oh.
[1:23:36] You're younger oh so it's your older brother who was telling the truth okay that's good it's a little unusual but right doesn't really matter okay so yeah why do you you think you were so concerned with other people's potential disapproval for your brother telling the truth?
[1:23:52] I think it has to do with just looking for love, having that need for love, not getting it from my family and seeing that those other people are the only other humans in my life. I viewed him as jeopardizing that possibility and getting acceptance.
[1:24:18] Okay. Now, what's one logical problem with that?
[1:24:29] You don't have to tell me.
[1:24:32] Well, you're concerned about a lack of love within the family, and you're betraying your brother for the transitory approval of unjust strangers. So you're concerned about the lack of love in your family, and you're betraying your brother. So you're you're part of the lack of love in the family that you're complaining about you're part of the problem that you say you want to escape right.
[1:24:55] Okay, how do you fix this oh.
[1:25:07] So you jump oh gosh everyone's saying so you're jumping straight there's an identification of a problem too well what do i do right right yeah i don't know why there's such a compulsion it's okay to just if you're in your insights and your thoughts and not rush straight into action because the action is designed to drown out the conscience right now of course you can have sympathy for yourself i mean how old were you when this, we're talking about deep conversations and we actually are referring to a submarine okay what's long and hard and full of semen anyway that's a whole different different yeah so how old were you when the submarine conversation occurred.
[1:25:41] I would have been And probably 10.
[1:25:47] Right. So you're acting off instinct. And so you obviously wouldn't hold yourself morally accountable for betraying your brother, you know, at the age of 10. And how old was he?
[1:26:00] He would have been 12.
[1:26:01] 12. Okay. Okay, so, you know, this is not something that you would say, oh, I have sinned at the age of 10 for not understanding the complex dynamics of neglect and need and desperation and honesty and thou shalt not bear false witness and demonic false selves. Right, you understand, you were 10, right?
[1:26:21] Yeah yeah and.
[1:26:22] This hasn't been mine correct integrity integrity and virtue and you know like i i've i've always said to you like whatever conflict you get into in public i'm 150 on your side i don't care if you're saying that two and two make five i'm absolutely agreeing with you 150 i'm on your side now later maybe we can unpack it a little more or whatever but if any conflict happens uh i'm 150 on your side i have to be because i've raised it right so that's the sort of loyalty that you need and because of that she really doesn't get into many conflicts because everyone knows this is being dim shadowy sore on eye of dad is floating around so plus.
[1:27:03] You know her knowing that rule makes her think about conflicts too.
[1:27:09] Yeah no i mean i i do want her to stand up for what's right but you also have to know uh when there are fights you can win and fights that you can't right there's a discretion is the better part of valor is is something that you know you have to be judicious with your courage otherwise it becomes an excess of courage which is self-destructive foolhardiness right just angels rush in where fools rush in where angels fear to tread and so on so yeah you didn't have any of this modeled and you know i hope that you wouldn't i mean it sounds like you feel really bad about what you did when you were 10 yeah yeah so that's that's your parents that's your parents having you attack yourself rather than blame them you know like if if some if someone taught you horrible swear words as the name for common things like you know they said oh the name for tree is mf or something like that right and you said oh hey look at that mf right pointing at the tree right right Right. Would you say, and people would get really upset about that. Would you then say, well, gee, I was just a terrible kid. I look, I swore.
[1:28:12] No, not at all. Right.
[1:28:13] You'd say my parents were really cruel to teach me these false things. Your parents didn't teach you loyalty, they didn't teach you standing up for the people you love, they didn't teach you integrity, they didn't teach you about honesty, they didn't really teach you much about Christianity, of course, right? So, how were you supposed to know these things? You can't invent the wheel, you can't invent philosophy at the age of 10 and come to all of these sophisticated conclusions yourself. It's impossible. So, the reason that you're mad at yourself is your parents would rather you be mad at yourself than at them. And the reason you can't get mad at your parents is, I assume they were neglectful. It's a theme for the day, right? And because they're neglectful, they're saying to you, we don't have a bond, kid. So if you displease us.
[1:29:01] Something wrong with you.
[1:29:02] Well, no, so the reason parents also neglect their children is so that their children don't criticize them. Weak, petty people can't take criticism because they're wedded to the vainglorious and rather psychotic delusion that they always have to be right, and so they can't take criticism. And so the way that you make sure your kids never criticize you is you neglect them so that they don't have the strong enough bond to push back when you do something wrong or contradictory or foolish or silly or whatever.
[1:29:37] The inability to take criticism was the one thing that was modeled.
[1:29:42] Inability. Well, no, because now you're criticizing yourself. So it's not like, sorry to be contradicting you every time I apologize, but I mean, you criticize yourself, so you take criticism from yourself, right? Did your parents self-criticize, do you think, in the same way?
[1:29:57] No, I don't think so. I think they thought they were right all the time.
[1:30:01] Right. Which means, of course, in any conflict, you have to be wrong. And they would rather you self-attack than criticize them at all. And I'm really sorry about that. That's very sad. And yeah, don't get mad at yourself for what you did when you were 10. That's not fair. I mean, you wouldn't. That's because your parents were mad at you when you were 10 and wouldn't take any self-criticism. You know, if my daughter behaves badly at the age of 10, I don't remember that she ever did in any particular way. But if my daughter behaved badly at the age of 10, who would I criticize?
[1:30:54] The only person you can't criticize is yourself at that point.
[1:30:58] Yeah, I mean, it would be on me, right?
[1:31:01] Mm-hmm.
[1:31:03] I mean, that's the deal, right?
[1:31:07] Yeah. It's funny. It's like I was talking to people at church yesterday. And they said, you know, when the three-year-old's behaving badly, I asked them, what does that mean exactly? How does a three-year-old behave badly? Because a three-year-old can't behave badly that's putting a moral claim on someone who can't even speak how does that work right and of course it was the mom and she kind of stared at me, i gave me the ostrich half cock like think about it if they can't articulate words how can they to behave bad right right but then you criticize.
[1:32:00] A child and then the child is desperate for your approval and then you have power over the child yay more power more power more power.
[1:32:09] So and this probably goes into the whole peaceful parenting thing at what point do you start correcting with words or say something like hey that's a bad behavior it has to be when they can comprehend right sorry.
[1:32:21] When do you say to children that's bad behavior.
[1:32:24] Yeah like you know for example if my daughter were to hit somebody why would you want to hit somebody well exactly yeah because she sees someone else hitting or see because you've allowed aggression into her environment right it's.
[1:32:40] Like saying why would my daughter speak japanese because she's raised with the Japanese in the environment, right?
[1:32:46] So here's a good one, if we want to non-sequitur. My daughter was having problems. She wanted to use a swing yesterday that another child was using. And she asked nicely, but the other child said no. Told her, said, well, you know, sometimes that happens. And I said, well, we'll come back, you know, give it five minutes. We'll do something else. And I bet you she'll be off the swing, which she wasn't. She was fine. But in the moment she was really upset. She didn't get the opportunity to get on a swing.
[1:33:20] Sure. And she's five. She's five.
[1:33:23] Okay.
[1:33:24] Way to anticipate the question. Good job. All right. So she's fine.
[1:33:29] Is there a better way to handle that situation?
[1:33:32] So at five, yeah, that's interesting because this is the primary thing is to talk about empathy. So you talked about delayed gratification, right?
[1:33:41] Yeah.
[1:33:42] Right? So you could wait, and I think I may have had this exact conversation with my daughter because, you know, you go to parks and they want to do something and somebody else is using it, right? Right. So we went away, we came back, and I was pushing my daughter on the swing and she was having a great time. And I said, boy, you're really happy to be on the swing, aren't you? She's like, oh yeah. And I said, now, if another kid comes along and says he wants to be on the swing, what are you going to say? No. Ah, you see? That's what the girl was doing. Now you understand why she was doing what she was doing, because she was having a great time. Maybe she just got on the swing. So you don't want to give up the swing. No, you didn't want to give up the swing. Hang on. So I said to my daughter, you didn't want to give up the swing, and she didn't want to give up the swing and you'd be upset if i like let's say some other kid came and said i want to be on the swing and i pulled you out and said you got to give the swing to the other kid you'd be upset, right right so this is just an empathy thing to put yourself in the position, not of the person who wants to swing but of the person who has the swing, because now you are the person who has the swing so you were really upset because the kid didn't want to give up the swing and now you don't want to give up the swing so it's just a way of understanding and putting themselves into the someone else's shoes right.
[1:34:59] I'll remember that and it was it was particularly hard because the kid that was on the swing was obviously younger i would have guessed about maybe three and a half to four.
[1:35:08] Just learning.
[1:35:09] How to talk so there was like no way to reason well.
[1:35:13] No but why why would you want to reason why would you want to talk the kid out of being on the swing. In other words, what would be the benefit?
[1:35:23] I wouldn't.
[1:35:24] No, but I get that. And I remember having a conversation like, well, can't you just, you know, you're good at talking, talk her off the swing, right? And I said, look, I don't have anything to offer that child. So, it would just be kind of like, don't do what you want for no reason. Give up the swing for no reason.
[1:35:50] Right.
[1:35:51] So, I don't have any negotiate. I can't negotiate with someone I have nothing to offer to. Does that make sense? Like, I'm just going to go up to this kid. I'm going to have to say, the only thing I'm going to be able to say is, you're being selfish for not sharing the swing. All I can do is threaten a negative. Because I've got nothing positive to offer.
[1:36:08] And even that is bearing false witness. Because she's not being selfish.
[1:36:11] No, of course she's not. Like, I would have to go up and be mean and lie to her about being a mean kid. You're not sharing that selfish. I'm just mad. And it's like, but that's just threatening someone. And applying a negative is not a negotiation. It's just a threat.
[1:36:28] Right and this is interesting because this situation and how it played out and what we're discussing is the exact opposite of my child all manner of accusations of selfishness like if i were to superimpose myself in the swing it would be we need to get off the swing right now because you've had long enough so we have this arbitrary you've been on the swing for too long and someone If someone else needs a turn, you have to share, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[1:36:57] Right.
[1:37:01] Yeah. So.
[1:37:04] Yeah, so you don't have anything to offer, so you just threaten. You know, like some guy who sticks a gun in your ribs in the alley and says, give me your wallet. I mean, he doesn't have anything to offer, so all he's got is a threat. He doesn't have anything to negotiate with. I mean, I remember as a six-year-old, I didn't have any money. Like, I was in this boarding school, but my father paid for it from a distance, and my mother didn't have any money, and there was no money. And in the boarding school, they have something called a tuck shop.
[1:37:35] And in the tuck shop, you could go and buy sweets and what they call them, crisps, basically potato chips, and so on, right? So you'd be able to buy- I can translate to British. Yeah. So all these little treats and so on, and I never had any money. And all the other kids would buy these sweets and candies, and it was pretty terrible because I wasn't going to beg and cajole and, you know, hey man, share, you know, being mean, right? I just, this is a pride thing I've had from the very beginning. Like, I do my best to not beg from a situation of weakness because that's pretty tragic. And it's not my fault that I'm in a boarding school with rich kids and I don't have any money I mean we went to a fair and I desperately wanted to you know throw one of these balls at the bowling pins and if you knock one over you got a coconut and I was desperate for a coconut and I'm, I didn't have any money and I remember the teacher was actually kind of nice and gave me the I think it was five pennies to throw the ball I threw the ball and I missed but it was at least nice I remember that very clearly, somebody being nice about it.
[1:38:42] So I was in the tuck shop one day, and I had a little pencil sharpener that had a gold-painted little train engine on top. And the gold-plated little train engine was kind of cool, I suppose. And so I tried to sell my little pencil sharpener. Now, I needed the pencil sharpener, so I carefully removed the toy train, just that tiny little thing, like half the size of your thumb. And I went around because you could get a piece of candy for half a penny. And, you know, at the age of six, I'm going around trying to sell my little gold-painted toy train figurine for half a penny. And nobody wanted it. So I didn't have anything to negotiate with. I wasn't going to beg, right? Because that's just, you know, that's the mark of a slave, it feels like. Always has. So I just had to do without the candy. For years, like I went to that boarding school for like two years and I never had any money and I can never buy anything.
[1:39:43] And when we went through these various manias, this is sort of like when COVID hit, I'm like, oh yeah, I saw this when I was six. And the two manias in particular, I remember, it's sort of the manias that go on with kids who are alienated and trapped.
[1:39:57] And one of them was Conquerous, like these chestnuts that you'd put a string through a chestnut and you'd swing and hit the other one and you'd hope to have the one that broke the other one and not be broken yourself. So we did these Conquer things. And Conquer, I get it, like C-O-N-K-E-R, but it's also C-O-N-Q-U-E-R. So, Conquerors was one, and then we went through this wild phase of paper airplanes. Who could make the best paper airplane? Who could get it to go the fastest? Who could make it do the most loops and so on? And I didn't even have any paper. I didn't even have any notebooks. So, I ended up having to tear a page out of my personal copy of the Guinness Book of World Records. It was a page with Roman coins, I remember. And I got seriously lectured about, you know, when you shouldn't be ripping up books. Your mother worked hard, spent a lot of money, blah, blah, blah. And it's destructive, and I got this big long lecture in front of the whole class about property and so on. But nobody ever seemed to care that I didn't have any money to buy anything and had to kind of make do with a bunch of stuff.
[1:40:56] So, yeah, that's just part of the general hypocrisy. They beat me with a cane and then they said it's really important to be moral and not tear up books. Who's been leaving books out to spoil? Sorry, that's a line from one of my favorite movies, Room of the View. You so yeah did i i say we'll get you know i want to get on that swing it's like well what do we have to offer like we want we want the kid and i say this to my daughter what do we have to offer, right i i i want to get on that swing oh okay cool what do we have to offer, It's a long pause, right?
[1:41:32] Yeah.
[1:41:33] And because we don't. And so if we don't have anything to offer, we just have to wait. In the same way that when I was a kid, if nobody wanted to give me half a penny for my little golden toy train thing, I had to not have candy. If you don't have anything to offer, don't do anything because all you can do then is threaten. And you don't want to do that because you know if you're on the swing and some kid comes along and starts yelling at you and calling you a bad person because you don't give up the swing that's not happy that's not a good thing right so yeah i mean that at five certainly she can get the empathy thing where she can say because she's on one side of the equation and her need for the swing is bottomless and then her desire to hang on to the swing allows her to connect with the emotions of the other person so that when she's because you can't negotiate without empathy all you can do is bully, right? Empathy is, okay, if I were in your shoes, what would I want? And, you know, the kids didn't want my crappy little half flaked off gold painted toy train thing. And so, and you know, honestly, I didn't want it either. Otherwise I wouldn't have been trading it. So, so yeah, I mean, it's important in life as a whole that if you don't have any leverage, don't negotiate because all you can do is beg or bully. And both of those things are not, not great. So sorry, long, long story, but I hope it makes sense.
[1:42:49] No it makes total sense and that's a great approach to teaching these sorts of things because, yeah i want her in the headspace of being able to offer something valuable versus you know whining or cajoling.
[1:43:04] Yeah or crying crying or getting mad or yeah yeah that's because then that's just the infliction of a negative right that's the same as saying you're selfish it's like father you get me what i want or i'm going to inflict a negative on you called crying and making you feel bad and it's like that can't work and it's the same thing with kids too like my daughter would say i really really want x right she was so for a while she was really into toy snakes and she gave them all these names and it was actually kind of funny because she was so young she couldn't come up with names so we had one called tree one called window one called plant because these were the things that were in the room when she was naming it she's like what are you going to call it uh hey tree and so we had all these things named i guess it was the native of american naming style her.
[1:43:44] Cut her cousin has named a duck duda so.
[1:43:48] Dida duda like oh duda day yeah that makes sense yeah.
[1:43:53] Duda the duck.
[1:43:54] I believe that's the beginning imprinted yeah all right so so she was really into these and and we went to a um oh gosh uh it was like an apple picking place and and all of that and and they had a little gift shop and they had these big, big, puffy cloth snakes. And she's like, oh, I really, really want one of those, right? And she was very young, right? And, you know, then as a parent, you think that you have to say yes or no.
[1:44:29] And it's a balance, right? Because you don't want to say no all the time because then her desires mean nothing. You don't want to say yes all the time because then she has an unrealistic expectation of resources, right? It doesn't learn how to limit her preferences or tastes. So I was pretty early on. I was like, well, I don't have to say yes or no. I can ask her to tell me more about what she wants and what it makes her feel. And then I would say, okay, you know what? Let's go up and down the store. Let's point at everything we really want.
[1:45:00] For me i mean i have a sweet tooth that's why i had to give up sugar right back in the day i'd be like oh i can't i could take this whole roll of candy i could take this whole row of candy i could literally eat it on the way home and i don't think i'd get sick like i want everything it's so shiny it's so pretty and oh i like snow globes those snow and so we would just go around talking about all the things we want and so that was a lot of fun and we never ended up getting into snake because we can talk about things we want doesn't mean it has to translate into getting things you know i remember when i first was an entrepreneur and i had a budget and basically i could buy any cool technical toy i wanted anything yeah and this was mind-blowing to me because i remember saving up for like three months to buy 32k of ram from a guy in a parking lot probably I believe it was as hard as a bomb. But, and I just remember like not having money. I remember the first IBM PC I bought, $850 with a 20 meg hard drive. And just, I think it was one.
[1:46:17] One meg of ram or something it was a 286 and all of that and that that's because and that's because i i was into the atari 520 st but their their hard drive their external hard drive was over a thousand dollars and i thought okay well for 850 bucks i bought a second hand pc which i then wrote my entire novel revolutions on it was like a really good investment in a way but so and that was so i so sorry for most of my life i couldn't buy cool stuff and then when i was chief technical officer I had a big budget. I could buy any cool thing that I wanted and justify it. And I wanted everything. I still do. I mean, you can't give me a tech toy and not have me have a happy idiot grinning afternoon. And so learning how to limit when you get older, right? You can have all the candy you want, but learning how to limit is important. So you can have a desire for something without indulging in that desire, right? So I wanted to teach her that wanting something doesn't mean you have to get it or not get it. You can just explore that feeling and talk about all the things you want and have a great deal of fun with that kind of stuff but it doesn't have to translate into getting it or not getting it and that's the battle if that makes sense.
[1:47:20] Yeah it makes sense because then you're you're kind of because yeah you're trying to dig into the motivation behind the desire.
[1:47:29] Yeah and you're what you're doing is you're modeling wanting things without getting them which teaches kids something about self-discipline now we're at the point where i have to really really encourage her to buy things like we were at a renaissance fair not too long ago. And, you know, she liked this or liked that and all of that. And I was like, no, no, get it. She's like, no, you know, I can get it cheap for somewhere else. And it's like, yeah, but think of the time. Oh, it doesn't matter. Like, so it's not like it's gone too far the other way. But now she's like, you can't get to spend money on anything.
[1:47:59] Stef, Stef, Stef, you can't argue time variable to a 15-year-old.
[1:48:04] Yeah. Well, no, because, yeah, for her, this is the thing for me. For me, shopping is like going to the dentist. Like, I'll do it. But the sooner i get out the better but what i don't understand and you know femininity is a vast unexplored continent for most of the male mind and you know lord love these mysteries i'm not sure i want to penetrate the cloud cover of that ecosystem but for me uh like oh i have to go do more shopping like i'll just buy something and and that's it's done but she she likes the shopping she likes the browsing my wife's the same way it's like maybe it's some like i just want to hunt the thing and bring it down and bring it home right that's like the hunter thing but But they're all like, well, let's explore, and it's that gathering thing, and maybe there's, you know, she's like, every time we go somewhere, it's like, hey, can you lift that log up? There could be salamanders underneath. So, she enjoys the gathering. I don't. And that's just a delightful difference of the delightful incomprehension and wonder of the sexes. So, yeah, I'm like, yeah, but you have to spend time looking for it. It's like, but I like doing that. I'm like, okay, you've just passed beyond the realm of comprehension, so I'm just going to smile.
[1:49:09] I don't understand.
[1:49:11] I don't try to understand. It's not. I feel that understanding will cost me my chest hair. Although it could bring my hair back on my head. Who knows?
[1:49:21] Yeah.
[1:49:22] I think we had somebody else who wanted to chat. I'm not sure yes or no. But yeah, I think have that conversation with your brother. I think it could be really, really helpful. And don't get into self-attack. I mean, you were 10 years old, for heaven's sakes. You're still mostly just a shadow cast by your parents' choices. and have very little free will of your own.
[1:49:43] Yeah, and it's interesting with that, with the go behind the desire thing, because that's another thing about the childhood that's like, there was no desire. We were not allowed to have desires as children. Like, I didn't ask, I remember consciously not asking for things, because I knew I wouldn't get it, so there's no point.
[1:50:01] Yeah.
[1:50:02] Yeah.
[1:50:02] I still, like, it's funny, I don't need a computer, but if I get an email with computers on sale, I'd be like, oh, I can't believe it. I mean, of course, I won't order anything, but I don't need one.
[1:50:13] I mean, I'm currently chatting away with this in my, this little tablet. It's like, I don't know, six or seven years old, does everything I need it to. So now, of course, I'm at the time where it's like, yeah, it's a cool new toy, but I've got to spend some time setting it up. But that's, I'm 57. There's no longer an infinity of time ahead, right? So, all right. Well, thanks for the call. I appreciate that. And is there anything else you wanted to mention? Sorry, I feel like I keep interrupting you at the end.
[1:50:37] I would just say, is it the hatred of you to mention FPV drones since you have this weakness for gadgets that are cool?
[1:50:45] FPV drones? First-person view. First-person view. Yeah. What is that? Is that AR?
[1:50:51] I'm sorry, is that VR?
[1:50:52] What do you mean?
[1:50:54] No, you just stick goggles on your face and you can fly a drone around. It's really awesome.
[1:50:58] That is cool. I've actually thought of, you know, I like doing these woodwalks from time to time if the weather's good and the bugs aren't too bad. And I know you get these drones that follow you around, but I don't think they're silent. And I think they're also only like 15 minutes. So it's not going to be enough. But I thought it'd be kind of cool. Oh, just looking out the back here, this giant crow. But yeah, I thought it would be kind of cool to get a drone to follow me around while I'm doing a show. But they don't. I think they still make noise and they're not, they don't last long enough. So I think that's still an issue.
[1:51:27] You can get silent ones or pretty near silent ones. And if you go up high enough, you won't hear it. They sound like bees.
[1:51:34] But the time is still, right? The battery.
[1:51:38] Yep. They won't last an hour, that's for sure.
[1:51:43] All right. Well, thanks, man. I appreciate that crack dealer offer. Thank you. All right. Thank you, man. All right. So anybody else who wanted to? I know somebody was asking if there's a queue, and now's the time. If you want to unmute, I'm happy to spend another half hour.
[1:51:58] Hello?
[1:52:00] Yes, sir. Go ahead.
[1:52:01] Stef, yeah. Yeah. So could you share any gritty stories of you working hard during your entrepreneurial days?
[1:52:10] I certainly can. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[1:52:13] I'm just seeking some fantastic stories for some personal motivation because I'm currently building a startup.
[1:52:20] Yes, yes, yes. Well, I mean, I remember once we had a. I, it's funny, you know, I still don't even want to mention the corporate names, although it's been like 30 years and nobody cares, but I still keep it sort of private, but it's a brand everybody would completely recognize. And we were building a system for them and the system had to be ready. And there were still last minute changes coming in. And it was really, it was really a wild and tough time. Now, one of the things that I did as the chief technical officer, and obviously then in in a sense, de facto head of R&D, was I built software that could change software. Because I built a database that could change itself. I built every piece of data needed a report. And so I built software that would build the reports automatically and build the query and sorting forms automatically. I built software that allowed you to build your own reports. And this was all pretty wild back in the day. Like this is back 30, 35 years ago. go, this is all very advanced and very challenging stuff. And I remember after two nights, I stayed up for two nights. This was a massive system that we were delivering.
[1:53:40] And I really, really wanted it to work well. And I remember it was like, I don't know, five in the morning, the second night. Like we'd been up the first night, continued working the day, was up the second night. And I remember I had to hit the enter key a bunch of times to get something to work. And i remember half passing out waking up hitting the enter key half passing out waking up hitting the enter key and then yeah so then i was we we delivered at noon i went home and the system worked and it was it was great and i remember the one i was living with at the time it's like well i haven't seen you in two days you know let's go have a let's go out for lunch and i was like oh who do i have to blow to catch a nap here and so uh but you know i was responsible young young man so we went out for lunch and then i crashed and i think i slept for like 17 hours or something crazy like that. And yeah, that was the way. I also remember, for some mysterious reason, missing a flight. I missed a flight. And we would try and do these tours, these hops, right? So you'd try and get a bunch of sales presentations in a relatively close area. And then you'd go and do three or four at a time so you didn't have to keep crossing the border, flying up and down all the time.
[1:54:50] So I was sitting there with a salesman who looked vaguely like Michael Douglas, you know, one of these kind of guys, you know, a little gun cock. and Paul Newman style. And we were both sitting there reading at the gate. And for some reason, we completely missed the flight. I don't know if the gate had moved or we just missed something that was being read, but we were both doing a little bit of work and we missed the flight. And this was at about 10 p.m. And we had a presentation at eight o'clock the next morning. And we did the calculation and we figured if we rented a car and we really hoofed it, it we could get to the presentation by eight the next morning but it meant driving all night now again i don't think it was our fault in particular that we missed the flight because there was a lineup of people at the car rental place who would also miss the flight so but we managed to finally get a car we got the last car and there were a bunch of people behind us who desperately needed to get to this town that the plane was flying to which was about an eight eight hour nine hour hour drive and they were you know they sort of were desperate to get to this town so there was like i don't know four people or whatever so uh i did a lot of the driving and my uh the salesman uh was was sort of getting his deck ready for the presentation which he was going to do on the flight and we had four people jammed in the back and we didn't charge them or anything because it was a business expense or whatever but we we all drove and i remember we got there a little bit early.
[1:56:20] And we ended up checking into a motel because I said, listen, I'm going to need to crash after that. I'm exhausted, right?
[1:56:25] You know, driving all night is not particularly fun. And it was kind of foggy in patches. So, you know, you hunched over and straining, you know, hour after hour was no fun. So I remember trying to catch a nap, you know, from like, I don't know, 7 to 7.30 before we ended up having to go. And I remember the motel was so crappy that the pool was green and empty, you know, like the stagnant pond water at the bottom. Them and so I ended up trying to crash for like half an hour and then I went you get the adrenaline I did the presentation just fine and then we crashed afterwards so yeah it can be a brutal amount of work I remember flying to China I was supposed to be met by representatives from a big, environmental company out there they couldn't make it and I ended up just landing in China with no idea where to go what to do and I remember checking into a hotel and I'd just been sitting for like the 20-hour flight or whatever so I went walking and I walked up to Tiananmen Square and I I just remember it being so unbelievably cold. I didn't really think of China as being that cold. And I remember having to go into hotels along the way just to warm up because I thought it was just awful. But I wanted to see it. So I did all that kind of stuff. So yeah, the work can be brutal and it can be, but for me, it's like, it's worth it. I don't look back upon that time with, oh, that was terrible or, you know, I can't believe I worked that hard and all of that. And some of the work was annoying because the salespeople would promise, you know, like we sold to one company and they said, well, we need a record of every transaction in the database.
[1:57:54] With a comment, you know, if somebody changes this environmental data, we need to know why. And I had to design a whole system that backed everything up with comments. I couldn't just back up the whole database because you needed the comment that joined all these disparate tables through queries together. So I ended up writing a script that took all the queries that underlined the data entry forms, turned them into make table statements in Oracle, and then in the before update event of the form, I would have to have a comment and then I would take all the form data and jam it into the new make table. It was all wild stuff, and it had to be really creative to make all of this stuff work. I remember the salespeople, they said, well, we have an existing Java system, and we want to be able to reproduce that. Oh, yes, we can absolutely reproduce it. And the salespeople, they didn't know what they were talking about. And so what we had to do was, in the before update on the web form, there were a bunch of Java DLLs, dynamic link libraries, or the sort of things that you call and get a response from. And so we would have to run through a whole bunch of DLLs and say, well, we're going to call this DLL to see if the data needs to be shared with the Java system.
[1:59:02] And there were so many of these scattered throughout all of the places that we basically, and some of them were needed and some of them weren't. So we'd put them all in a particular folder and we would just try and call the Java DLLs. And if they weren't there, it would throw back an error and we just save the form.
[1:59:19] Right like literally it was it was like that was trash programming to be frank you should not have error handling as part of your business methodology but that's all i could think of to come up to to make it happen and uh it did end up working it did end up working but it was inelegant and, i was happy to never share the secrets of that with the with with the programmers on on the other side i also remember flying out to uh to houston to to work with a company down there And I had one day.
[1:59:52] And I needed to get my notebook onto their network.
[1:59:58] And I got there 8.30 in the morning and, you know, exchanged pleasantries. And I was sitting in the CTO's office and all these people were trying to get my laptop onto the network. And they kept coming in and out. Hours went by. The chief technical officer was on his phone. I don't even know if I should still be in his office. And, you know, he's like, you've got to get this guy on the network. Working we're working on a bus and you know i i think it was around four o'clock they finally got my my flight was at 6 30 or whatever and four o'clock so i was supposed to be a whole day installation that i had to get done in about an hour and uh it was uh really quite exciting i also i threw this in my novel the god of atheists i also remember um i had to reformat my computer before a presentation because something had messed up so i reformatted reinstalled windows windows, and then just before I went into the presentation, I realized that I hadn't installed any printer drivers, so none of the print previews, none of the previews of the reports worked, because no printer installed, and so I had to do that, and just, you're literally walking into the meeting, inserting discs and CDs back in the day, and making sure there are printer drivers, and I was just mad, really quite mad, but you know, I look back on it as an exciting challenge, like surfing or skydiving, where you're hoping to grab three pigeons to survive.
[2:01:23] It really was quite a blast in a lot of ways, and I loved solving the problems. For me, I designed a whole status bar where it would predict how long it would take to do things, like when you copy and paste things in Windows, it says three minutes remaining and so on.
[2:01:41] When I could make that status bar go faster, it was like the most glorious thing in the world.
[2:01:47] Our system was user-restricted but not data-restricted. So we had a customer who said, well, I only want the guys in the Northeast to see the Northeast data. I only want the guys in the Southwest to see the Southwest data. So we had user-level permissions for everything. So you could set up, well, this guy can see this report but not this query or something. Think so they want a data specific and so trying to figure out how to make that work because getting data specific restrictions on for users is really tricky because there's so many different ways that you can get at the data and you have to make sure that it's at the very most underlying query.
[2:02:27] That you filter the data because otherwise they can you know well they can run the report but what if they remove all the filters from their end does that give them all like we had to just make sure that it was all nailed down. So we had to push the code that restricted the data by user as close to the database as humanly possible. And figuring out how to make that work and make that bulletproof was really exciting. I love puzzling that kind of stuff out. I get very, very absorbed into those puzzles and challenges and how is this going to work? And is there any way to break through it and all this kind of stuff. And so I found it very absorbing. Time i'm flu my brain worked like 10 000 hamsters on cocaine and uh you know most times i mean there were occasionally times i just strike out but i remember one of our early sales.
[2:03:18] Uh the the customer said well i wasn't there for this meeting because i was only there to show the tech stuff to the tech people and so and and you know when you're not invited to a sales meeting as the tech guy you're about to get hosed like it's just there's a reason why they won't because normally they'll bring you because, you know, just in case there's some tech question that comes up that they can't answer. And when you're the tech guy, and you're not invited to a meeting, it's because they're going to do something unholy with your weekends over the summer. And so, you know, here's what the customer wants. And it was, you know, we had a whole specification process. And I actually, the specification process ended up being entered into a spreadsheet. And then the spreadsheet, I would feed it into the database and the database would make all the changes that were data related on the spreadsheet it would make them automatically throughout all the tables queries forms reports you name it even on the web interface eventually it was very cool stuff very very sophisticated and advanced stuff especially for sort of back in the day so i remember then they came back from this meeting and i said oh how was the meeting good good he just wants one little thing he said said, you know, the database just needs to produce this. And they gave me this fairly thick binder of all the reports that he needed.
[2:04:37] And I said, well, we don't do those reports. And he's like, yeah, but you've designed this whole database to change itself, and I'm sure it's not going to be a big deal. It's like, you're sure, you have no real understanding of the technology, but you're just sure it's not that big a deal. And if you've ever seen the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out relatively recently, there's a funny bit where they have a particular problem. They turn to the wizard and they say, well, just use your magic. And he's like, magic is very specific in particular. It's not just some wand that you wave to solve every problem. And I found that particularly telling, because that was kind of what it was like being a technology guy, that they'd say, well, you know, just, you know, the database changes itself and the reports change themselves. Selves so just and it's like yes but not in this format i don't even know if we have this data like so that was my challenge was a thick binder of reports and now you can say no.
[2:05:33] But how are you going to make payroll right if you i mean this was early on when we were just starting out so you say yes and then you find a way to make it work and what bothered me though was that the sales people would get their bonuses for making the sale that they go up to their cottages for the weekend and i'd be there with some other guys that i worked with working all weekend and we didn't get bonuses so it's kind of asymmetrical that way that all the people with high charisma and uh low wisdom end up making all the bank and all the people with less charisma, and uh high intelligence and wisdom they end up uh working all the weekends for no extra pay so they they basically were the man of lords and we were the serfs but it was uh yeah it was very exciting i mean it's the same all over in tech it's not there wasn't anything particular to to to me. It's just easier to lie to the client and then hand the job requirements over to somewhat high-strung, high-conscientious people whose paycheck depends upon them working feverishly for weeks, and then it sort of gets done. It's like that line in About Plays in Shakespeare in Love. Oh, it's all going to come together, even the play's a complete disaster. How? Nobody knows, but it does. It's the same thing with a lot of tech. Yeah, you dig into it, love the work, love the challenge, and know that every challenge you solve is probably a challenge that other people won't solve.
[2:06:56] The software company that I co-founded is still running 35 years later. That's not common. And we got a very good reputation and we worked hard. And everything that you solve at two in the morning is one step closer to success because other people aren't staying till two in the morning or aren't just saying, I will solve this.
[2:07:19] So when it came to sit down and write UPB or come up with UPB, I had so much experience in the software world and in the entrepreneurial world of saying to myself, there's no way this can be done but i'm going to figure it out anyway and that's really entrepreneurship is like there's no way there's no way this could be done but i'm going to figure it out anyway and then that stimulates your creative juices and you usually would get some kind of answer and so when i sat down with upb and said okay there's no way this can be done but i'm going to figure it out anyway i'm going to get secular ethics i'm going to get a rational of proof of secular ethics no gods no governments and uh just having had you know so much experience a decade and a half or whatever of experience of uh a decade and a half now about about a decade of experience just this is not possible but i'm going to figure it out anyway uh just gives you that kind of self-confidence and muscle and sinew that you just can't be stopped i always view like okay there's a you know the old thing that what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. Well.
[2:08:23] All of the immovable objects are things that can't be done, but I am the unstoppable force. And I figured that out in the business world and then translated it to philosophy problems. Because philosophy is just another kind of logical, series of logical steps and arguments. Because that's all software is, is a series of logical steps and arguments to compel the computer to do what you need it to do in a way that makes sense to the computer. So yeah, translating deep tech to user interface is part of why the deep tech of philosophy, I have a user interface of this show to make it more accessible to people. So a lot of what happened in the entrepreneurial world helped and was the foundation for what I do in the world of philosophy. So, anyway, I could sort of go on all day, but I hope that makes some kind of sense. But yeah, it's all great. Chew on the topics, love the challenge, love the challenges, love the impossibility. Because what seems impossible to you that can be achieved is going to seem impossible to someone else, and they won't even try, and then you win. And whatever ends with and then you win is a good tale. So I hope that makes some sense.
[2:09:29] That was beautiful. Thank you, Stef. Can I ask one follow-up question? How do you boost your focus stamina bar? I feel that I tend to burn out fairly quickly. And I need to take a little micro vacation or staycation and I can get back on the horse. But it kind of slows me down. That's how I see it. Because effectively, I'm working almost like three jobs into one. I mean, that's just part of the nature of the work of a startup.
[2:09:58] What do you mean by burn out?
[2:10:02] You begin to dread and resent the work.
[2:10:11] How does that manifest for you.
[2:10:15] Like it takes me suppose I'm trying to, like you brought up a lot of automation like suppose I'm trying to program a web crawler or a data set health check or program a background groundwork or like on a given work week where i'm not burnt out i can maybe solve it like you know in two to four hours but when i'm burnt out it takes me like a series of days.
[2:10:41] And it manifests like you just you can't concentrate you don't feel like you have any intellectual juice or creativity.
[2:10:46] Yeah exactly lacking in intellectual juice yes yes are.
[2:10:50] You You're working alone?
[2:10:52] 200 people.
[2:10:54] And do they fuel you?
[2:10:57] Absolutely, absolutely. But we're all located across the globe, a scout.
[2:11:02] Oh, yeah, yeah. I was around before that remote work room.
[2:11:05] Yeah.
[2:11:06] Well, I mean, we did open up a couple of offices in various locations. We opened up one in Vancouver and one in the States. And tell me the kind of scenario that leads to this burnout. Out how long are you working? How many hours?
[2:11:23] 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week. What burns me out is I try to upskill on this side. Like I'm trying to get up to speed on this deep learning LLM stuff. And I think it's just a high flux of information passing through my brain and it's just too much for me to handle.
[2:11:42] And how long have you been working at this pace? I know it's not always the same and it's not consistent, but how long have you been working at this pace?
[2:11:49] 10 months since the inception of this idea.
[2:11:52] Okay. and how old are you.
[2:11:55] 32 all.
[2:11:57] Right and what's your personal life like do you get recharged from girlfriend wife friends.
[2:12:03] Family yep married and have a healthy set of uh male friends and they recharge me but um given that this is a startup uh it's personally funded i don't have the financial means to go out and splurge every weekend or so um.
[2:12:20] Why is it self-funded do you do you not have any access to capital?
[2:12:25] I'm self-funded by the three of us. One of our co-founders is serving as an angel investor as well. It's his dime.
[2:12:35] Okay, and do you not have enough money? Underfunding is the biggest risk for almost all startups.
[2:12:42] Yeah, I mean, it's adequate to sustain a minimalistic lifestyle, but not enough for me to go on exquisite weekend trips.
[2:12:53] No, no, I'm not talking about your vacations. I'm talking about why are you doing the work of at least two people? You said three people, right? So if you're doing the work of three people, you can do that for a little while, but it's not a sustainable business model, right?
[2:13:07] Yeah, technically speaking, I guess I'm just wearing, I said I'm wearing three hats because effectively, you know, I'm doing front end data engineering and data science.
[2:13:20] Yeah, that's not answering the question. Sorry. So, are you underfunded?
[2:13:23] Because we can't afford to hire people.
[2:13:25] So, if you can't afford to hire people, why? Is it because you're underfunded?
[2:13:31] Pretty much. We're hoping to get a contract with the prospective client and then use that as a capital to build up staff.
[2:13:40] When might that happen?
[2:13:42] End of year or start of next year?
[2:13:45] Oh, so you've got a long way to go.
[2:13:47] Yeah yeah but we're at least seven.
[2:13:50] Seven plus more months of this right.
[2:13:51] Yeah pretty much.
[2:13:54] Okay um what is the work schedule of the people yeah you said there's other two people two other people what's their work schedule like.
[2:14:01] Uh the other person is he's effectively our coo slash uh uh cfo he's non-technical so he doesn't contribute to the code base um the the other guys uh cto asked for.
[2:14:15] Their sorry i didn't ask.
[2:14:16] For their title what's their workload is.
[2:14:18] It similar to yours.
[2:14:19] They they have they have full-time jobs um they put in about 20 to 40 hours a week me i put in at least 50 to 60 per week because i don't have a full-time job this is my sorry.
[2:14:31] Weren't you talking 10 to 12 hours a day six days a week, yes so isn't that 60 to 72 do i have that.
[2:14:39] Right ideal yes i'm just doing ad hoc math.
[2:14:43] No that's fine so the other guys are only working part-time.
[2:14:47] Uh exactly yes and.
[2:14:49] Does your equity stake represent like reflect the.
[2:14:52] Fact that you're putting.
[2:14:53] In two to three times the work.
[2:14:54] Absolutely yes and that's why i get a generous stipend uh.
[2:15:00] What do you mean by a stipend.
[2:15:01] Uh pretty much funds to keep me alive where I don't need a phone to live. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[2:15:08] Okay, so you have more equity in the company because you're working more, right?
[2:15:13] Exactly, exactly.
[2:15:14] Okay. So, are there any friends that you'd like to work with?
[2:15:20] That's a difficult... Okay, I'll just give you straightforward answers. No.
[2:15:24] Okay. Is there anyone who might be a friend of a friend or you've ever met that you think might be fun to work with, even if they're not a close friend of yours?
[2:15:33] As of now, no.
[2:15:36] So if you put the call out, or even if you put a job offer out, then there's a couple of things you can do. First of all, you can go to the angel investor and say, this is not sustainable. Like, I can't do this. Like, my brain can't work that hard. Like, you know, as an athlete, you can't train 10 hours a day. You just pull muscles, right? So it's not good. And, you know, for men saying, I can't handle it, or it's too much, it's not, it goes against our grain, but it's important to be honest, right? So that's one thing you can do is go and get more money and then hire someone. Now, I know that hiring someone, they've got to get up to speed and it's more work, but it helps in the long run, or even if there's more testing tasks or repetitive tasks that you can outsource, that would be one thing. Another thing is a lot of what you're going to do in the software world is repetitive. And again, the QAQC, quality assurance, quality control, maybe you could outsource that. You can get that overseas quite cheap. Another thing you could do, of course is you can hack off some part of your equity and offer it to someone else to come and work for the company non-negotiable.
[2:16:37] For me i want to retain everything that's why i work hard and that's why i'm asking you for heuristics.
[2:16:41] Well no but that's not wise because if you burn out i mean burnout is not just like i'm not as productive burnout can be serious errors, burnout can be um i i wiped the database burnout can be i i forgot to check in the source like like the updated code like burnout can be bad right and you can end up it can end up costing you quite a lot you know i accidentally deleted the backups and the hard drive fail like whatever i could be burnout is the kind of mistakes it's more than just like well i'm not as productive but it can be very counterproductive it can undo sometimes weeks or even months of work.
[2:17:21] That's good advice.
[2:17:21] So wanting to hold on to everything is great but not if it's sinking right, So, learning how to share risks and rewards. Sorry?
[2:17:34] In my defense, like, the modern landscape, it's all about, like, purchasing, like, SaaS licenses and getting, like, modern tooling. Like, that's how everything's able to be, like, done with less people. But, yeah, like, my initial grievance was, yeah, wearing too many hats, and it's really hindering my peak performance.
[2:17:55] Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with working extra at the beginning. But I can't tell you the number of businesses that I've looked at or evaluated where it's just crazy excess work that's keeping it afloat. That's not a sustainable business. A business has to be sustainable with a reasonable level of effort. If you say, well, my business is sustainable, but I have to work 70 hours a week, your business is not sustainable. And I'm not saying that's you at the moment, because you're in the startup phase and all of that, right? So I get all of that. But learning how to delegate and share both risks and rewards and share the work is important. And obviously, there's no magic solution to burnout if you've been doing 10 months of 60 to 70 hours. Like yesterday, I had one of these days, right?
[2:18:43] I did a show in the morning, and then I did a paid call-in, and then I did some other things in the afternoon, then I did another show, and then I went bowling with my daughter and some friends, and I came back and I had forgotten that I had scheduled a call at midnight, because it was a couple on the other side of the world. And I was like, I was tired, right? But, you know, I wasn't going to reschedule, so it was one of those days where I was just like, yeah, okay, when this day ends and I go to bed, it would not be the worst thing in the world.
[2:19:11] And you know obviously i'm older than you but if i had to do that on a consistent basis uh it would be tough to do good work it would be tough to do quality work so there is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to to effort and i was willing to work like i did and then i would take two weeks off and go lie on a beach and read philosophy because that would and play beach volleyball or whatever like that would recharge me right so you need that recharge time and it's not responsible to your investors to your product and to your business to to burn out, and saying well i i can't possibly give up any equity well if the business ends up not working out because you burn out then your equity is not worth much of anything so you might as well you don't give away equity to to end up with less you give away equity to end up with more right Exactly. So there's no magical solution to it. You do need to take some breaks. Why is there such a break net schedule?
[2:20:12] We just want to launch and secure a contract and use that revenue to do our initial hiring. Okay.
[2:20:18] So when you first had a business plan, and I hope you had some kind of business plan, what's the business plan? Okay, you're going to work 60 to 70 hours a week because we have this deadline because So.
[2:20:29] I mean, it's a little crumbs of background information. I think it takes me longer, too, because I'm not exactly like a technological veteran. Because a lot of it's upskilling as I go. So I'm like learning as I go. That's why it takes me longer.
[2:20:48] No, sorry, but that's sorry. So is it that your work is slower than you were anticipating in the business plan, right?
[2:20:56] Exactly, yes, yes.
[2:20:57] Okay. So if your work is slower, don't you need to move the deadline? Like, let's say it takes you another two months to finish. That's going to have you relax a little bit on the work, right?
[2:21:11] Exactly, yeah. Yeah, that would be wise. Right.
[2:21:15] So sometimes the problem is not in the day, but in the year. It's not where you are. It's at the end, right? So if you have an artificial deadline, say, well, we got to be finished by the end of the year. Like, well, why? Why is that an absolute? It's not an absolute, right? It's a negotiated thing.
[2:21:34] It's self-inflicted because I have this fear that other startups are kind of building something similar that we are, and they might launch it before us. And this ties in with the LLM revolution.
[2:21:49] I'm sorry, why is it bad if other software companies are developing the same product and might launch it before you? That's a good thing. Sorry, maybe I'm missing something.
[2:21:58] Well, I guess I fear they'll make it better.
[2:22:01] Well I don't know about that but I loved it when other people moved into my space because then they did free marketing for me, so let's say there's some company that's building something similar to what you're building well if they're first to market they have to advertise like crazy to make people aware that there's even such a thing as what they produced right.
[2:22:21] That's a good point.
[2:22:22] So they're going to spend huge amounts of money just raising awareness of the product in the marketplace and now if you're second to market that's fantastic, because it means that people are already aware of what you do because they've already other people have spent the money like other people have broken the ice and you just get to sail up without having to have the icebreaker so other people so when i was in the environmental software field both ibm and microsoft moved into the space and i was like fantastic my gosh because now they're advertising all of this stuff and then people say oh okay so we want to we they don't just say ibm doesn't say say, we have this, and then people just buy it, right? They do their research. So then when they did their research, you know, both Microsoft and IBM were spending massive amounts of money advertising for this product, which we already had. And IBM and Microsoft were new to the arena we'd already been around for like five years, which is like 35 years in software age, right? So, and we already had a proven track record, we already had satisfied clients, we already had They had testimonials and business plan cases and proof of value and ROI, all the kind of periphery stuff that you need for a market. So it was fantastic because then they said, oh, there's this solution. And people are like, wow, that's great. They do a search and we come up.
[2:23:38] So we didn't have to spend millions of dollars advertising because the other companies were doing it for us. So I'm not sure. And the other thing too, if I were you, if nobody else was working on it, that would not be a good thing, right? You want competitors because that means that other smart people have seen the business opportunity because most times smart people will see business opportunities. And if you're the only person in that space, that's usually not a very good thing because it means the space is very limited or other people have done the research and found that that it's not big enough to sustain the entry.
[2:24:12] Excellent point, Stef.
[2:24:14] Yeah, don't be panicked. Competition is great. Competition is really, really good for you. It makes you better, it makes you sharper, and you then get to share advertising costs with other people. So yeah, tons of times I would end up selling a system and say, oh, how did you find out about us? Oh, your competitors. Your competitors turned us on to the sphere and the field and we did the research and we thought you guys were the best i'm like thank you competitors right i'm sure sometimes it worked the other way not that we'd hear much about it but no it was great and having competitors is fantastic because they inform the companies of your existence and then you get to get in the meeting.
[2:24:55] I really needed that thank you so much stuff you.
[2:24:58] Are very very welcome but yeah don't don't competitors it's good i mean i i wish i had more people who were real challenging to debate with because uh that would be that would be more fun competition is is very good and uh you should you should welcome it and and it's fun it's fun to put your your best against other people's uh uh brilliance and and see who comes out on top if you know if they if they come out on top you can learn from them and that makes your product better if you come out on top you win and it's just yeah it's really great you should really welcome and appreciate the fact that there are other people or racing you to the finish line. I mean, it's been shown, of course, that runners run their very fastest when there's someone else who's at their speed or slightly better running with them. You're going to end up better because of all of that. So I wouldn't worry about it.
[2:25:42] Well said, well said. Time for two more brief questions?
[2:25:47] I think let's just do one, so pick your top one.
[2:25:49] Okay, okay. So I would consider, I've been a long-time follower. I would actually consider you as a textbook polymath, because you have so many domains of expertise. Like, I just entered my 30s, I'm 32. to but uh what kind of habits should i like form to like learn so many adjacent and unadjacent uh domains of knowledge and skill sets.
[2:26:19] Um but i'm not sure what you mean.
[2:26:23] Uh to simplify the question how do you learn so many things and how do you know so many things.
[2:26:29] Um just a general general curiosity i've always enjoyed things and then wanted a step further it right so uh for quite a while i was really into i remember listening to the band spirogyra in college and it's just really done i went into jazz i went into blues and and uh uh did even had some dips into country music although it's never been a particular favorite of mine but i just find stuff really interesting and i love it when the pattern pieces come together i love it when i read something and it's just like okay so that makes sense and this is why the world is this way or this is why the world is that way and so i've just always been curious and i'm just chasing that dopamine of things coming together. It's not a willed thing. It's not like, well, I know I must set myself this course of self-study. I'm basically just like, you know, a hamster running around from various food pieces to food pieces looking for the dopamine of the click and connect. And so I just love following the rabbit holes and.
[2:27:26] Seeing what ties together and what gets explained, right? So, I mean, I remember when I was big back in the day, and everywhere I went, every sort of conference I went to, I'd have like three or four rather sweaty guys come up and grab my lapels and say, you've got to look into Q, man, Q and on, you've got to look into Q. And so, you know, I'm not one to say no to what seems like wild theories, because Lord knows I've had some of my own. So, yeah, I looked into it, and it did not appear to to be uh valid and uh trust the plan and you know this is going to happen then this is going to happen and you know what's happened since is not anything that was predicted so i just was not uh.
[2:28:08] I didn't didn't really accept it and i'm sort of glad that i didn't really spend too much time looking into it because it turned out to be it probably will turn out to be some sort of psyop designed to um paralyze people's intellectual energies into thinking someone else is taking care of the problems in society. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was generated by some alphabet agency or something. But there was a hunger for a belief that what looks really bad is actually really good. And you just have to trust the plan. And trust the plan is a passive statement, right? So yeah, so I'm just really curious about why the world is the way that it is. I'm also, for some reason, I appear to be relatively bulletproof at the horror of having been lied to, you know, because when you grow up, you're told all these lies, you know, McCarthyism and Nixon and like all the things that you're told about, particularly with the U.S. History, that's just absolutely, completely the opposite of the truth and it's all propaganda. I remain still somewhat surprised, but not too long or any shocked that there are just massive amounts of people out there who have absolutely zero conscience about lying. It doesn't bother them.
[2:29:16] If it advances the cause, I mean, environmentalists have said this for years, that if we have to exaggerate to get what we want, that's no problem. No problem with lying. No problem with manufacturing data. No problem with just completely lying about people, like all the communists lying about McCarthy and so on. Just complete, no problem with it. And the number of people who go along with those lies is really quite shocking and surprising. But that is sort of the way that it is. And a lot of people recoil from the big lie because it's really painful for them emotionally. And then they have to challenge their relationships with all the people who lied to them or who accept those lies and so on. And COVID was another.
[2:29:53] Fauci was just testifying that, oh, yeah, the six-foot thing just kind of came out of nowhere. And we never really did tests on kids and masks. And there really weren't any tests. It'd be hard to design those tests, right? And so, yeah, it's just a bunch of lies and nonsense. A lot of people really recall from those lies and that limits what they can learn. And I'm like, oh, okay, so it's another lie. Okay, let's add it to the pile of giant lies that are inflicted upon society. Society is an asylum of propaganda held together by threats of brute force. And that's a lot of what goes on in the world. And I think a lot of people look at that and they sort of recoil. I've always been like, oh, that's what it is. That's what it is because I'm an empiricist, which means I try not to get too offended by things that are facts but most people seem to be offended by that stuff and i think that limits what they can explore i'm not saying you but so just have no limits and if you get real dopamine from things clicking and coming together and things making sense and having explanations and answers.
[2:30:53] I'm i can never be closer to the people in my life than i am to the truth i just can't be so if i want to be close to the people in my life i have to be close to the truth because I can't be close to people without knowing the truth. So I love being close to people. I love loving people and being loved by people. And I just, if I reject anything to do with the truth, it places a distance and a gap between me and the people I love. And I just, I won't sacrifice the people I love and my relationships with them in order to pursue a lie. I just, because I know No, that's a devil's bargain, because you end up neither with the truth nor any...
[2:31:37] People who are close to you it's very sad like the guy uh the 10 year old and his brother was 12 and the submarine women on the submarine thing so so uh he ended up conforming to the mob, and he ended up neither with the respect of his brother nor the connection with the mob you end up with nothing the devil says oh we'll give you all this approval and you won't get in trouble and people won't be mad and they'll love you and you'll you'll be happy and you'll get us a safe and secure societal and connection and community, you just have to not tell the truth. And so you end up, okay, fine, I won't tell the truth. And then you end up with no community, no authenticity, no love, no happiness, no connection, no depth, no self-satisfaction, and you don't have the truth anyway. So you end up with less than nothing. And that's just always seemed like a really bad bargain to me. So I think a lot of people avoid the truth because they're bribed with pretend community, and they end up neither with connection with their community nor the truth, and then they get either blackmailed or bitter or angry or very aggressive. So yeah, I would say just keep following the rabbit holes, and if you enjoy that click of understanding why things are the way they are, it's a beautiful feeling, and I've never.
[2:32:51] Really found much better than that click of understanding, because that's what brings me closer to people, and so you get the truth and love, and really, what could be better than that? All right. Well, thanks everyone for a great afternoon's chat. I really do appreciate it. And thank you, of course, for those listening later. This is a donor-only chat, and I really do appreciate you guys dropping by today. And your support, of course, if you're listening to this later, very, very important. Or even if you're a donor and want to throw me a couple of extra bucks, that's certainly, of course, more than welcome. But you can go to freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show. And I would really, really would appreciate that enormously. And you can, of course, also go to freedomain.locals.com. It's a great community. You can go to subscribestar.com slash freedomain. You also get to another great community that way. And you can go to fdreural.com forward slash TikTok to check out our TikTok channel as well. And lots of love from up here. I hope you guys have a wonderful day. I will see you on Wednesday night, 7 p.m. And thanks for everybody's contribution today. I really do appreciate it. Bye.
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