0:00 - Exciting Life Changes
15:01 - Unexpected Family Reunion
20:32 - Mother's Manipulation
25:48 - Social Media Surprises
30:31 - Seeking Family Support
33:28 - Facing Tough Realities
35:19 - Desire for Family Change
42:37 - Overcoming Past Influences
45:04 - Imagining Future Isolation
54:46 - Moving to a New Place
1:11:49 - The Big Fear
1:20:27 - Mechanism of Compliance
1:25:14 - Seeking Allies
2:01:43 - Wanting People to Be Like You
2:05:02 - Looking Forward to the Future
In our conversation, a caller shares with me the profound transformations in her life, attributing much of her growth to our previous discussions. She recounts challenging moments of asserting herself against her parents and navigating life-altering decisions. Particularly poignant is her recounting of a distressing encounter with her family at a nail salon after a two-year estrangement. As she grapples with complex emotions towards her family, I provide guidance on navigating the aftermath of the encounter and delve into her husband's reaction and its impact on their relationship dynamics.
Another caller opens up about the challenges of forming connections due to an abusive family background, expressing a longing for a supportive community, especially as they plan for a future with children. Despite seeking solace in religious groups, past negative experiences have left them wary. We explore the emotional toll of estrangement, emphasizing the need for self-protection and the creation of a nurturing environment for oneself and future family.
Delving into the worst-case scenario of being surrounded by deceitful individuals, we contemplate potential solutions, including the possibility of family members introspecting and making positive changes. Drawing from personal experiences with family dynamics, we discuss the transformative power of introspection and striving for personal growth within relationships.
Our discussion hones in on the nuances of family dynamics, focusing on the caller's interactions with her mother. I underscore the importance of understanding motivations behind remaining in challenging situations, highlighting the caller's quest for validation and support within the family circle. We unpack the intricacies of familial power dynamics, the pursuit of independence, and the yearning for acceptance and understanding within the family structure.
Further exploring the quest for understanding and validation from parents, the caller shares her struggles with her father amid difficult family relationships. We delve into the complexities of attempting to instigate change in individuals who fail to acknowledge their missteps. Reflecting on personal experiences and familial challenges, we dissect the inherent complexities of seeking resolution and peace within familial relationships.
In a fresh context, I engage in a French practice session with a focus on disparities in brain structures and internal dialogues. I express my joy in engaging in internal debates and maintaining diverse perspectives, crucial elements for my novel writing endeavors. Emphasizing the significance of truth and integrity rooted in conscience for personal evolution, I assert that a conscience serves as a guiding compass in life. Highlighting the futility of attempting to instigate change in individuals devoid of a conscience, we reflect on the inherent struggles in navigating such relationships.
[0:00] Excellent. Yeah. Gosh, well, long time no hear. Nice to get reconnected. Tell me what's going on.
[0:08] Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for taking the time. Honestly, it's crazy what happens when you apply what we talk about in the calls. I actually wanted to start by giving you kind of an update of the most exciting month ever.
[0:23] Sounds good.
[0:25] Okay um so i i don't know if you remember anything from our first call because it was a couple years ago and um i know you do like a thousand homes every year um anyways uh yours was quite memorable yeah.
[0:42] Yours is quite memorable so don't assume i know everything but don't assume i know nothing.
[0:48] Okay okay so i guess our first call was back in july 2022 and since since that time i like have completely changed my life um like i i didn't think i was gonna get like choked up talking about this because i'm so proud of myself um anyways so we had the first call in july, and then I and I was able to stand up to my parents and and all this COVID stuff which just completely derailed my life as well because I was supposed to go to med school and I got in early which was a huge accomplishment because I was supposed to start med school only at 21.
[1:36] And I wasn't able to go because I'm not vaccinated. And so I ended up applying for deferral and going back to school and finishing up my undergrad degree, which was great. So that takes me to September 2022. And then October 2022, we had a call together because I was actually She's supposed to go home for Thanksgiving. And after a month of trying to stand up to my family over the phone and talking to them about how I felt about how they had raised me and how they continue to parent me and just the overall family dynamic and how I hate my parents' relationship and just how toxic everything was, how abusive. I didn't want to go home for Thanksgiving. And I finally put my foot down after having our conversation and didn't go home for Thanksgiving. getting.
[2:30] And then back in December 2022, I graduated and ended up moving in with my boyfriend rather than moving back home with my family. So I hadn't seen my family for two years, basically.
[2:47] Until May 2024. But I'll get to that.
[2:52] So I moved back home in December 2022. At 22 I started a job in May 2023 I ended up turning down med school because I was really doing well in my job um and then come April 2024 um like January 2024 to April 2024 I was like a top performing sales rep at my company and I and I also turned 2020 I turned 23 in April 2024 so So being only 23 with only about a year of experience, I started excelling in my career, which was fantastic. And then in May 2024, my now husband and I, well, we got married. So I married my best friend in the whole wide world, which is just amazing. And we bought our first car together, which is also great because our whole life we were driving really awful cars that were breaking down and there were hand-me-downs and everything. And so we were actually able to buy a nice car together, which was super nice. And I feel like such a successful young professional, which is a great feeling. And then I just accepted an insane job offer. All within the span of two weeks, this has happened. And so I'm starting that job on Monday. So I just wanted to say, wow, like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Because I really applied everything that I've learned through your show, through our call-in.
[4:20] And I've like completely turned around my life. I feel so in control of everything. I feel so at peace with everything that's going on. I'm just like, I'm so happy and I feel so fulfilled for my age. And we're planning on having kids probably in two years once my husband finishes this program he's in. And yeah, so everything's great. So thank you.
[4:52] Well, I'm obviously beyond thrilled to hear it. And it's quite a journey. And it sounds like you're getting to a beautiful spot in your life and congratulations on marrying your best friend. That's about as good as things get and it's beautiful. And congratulations on your career success and all kinds of wonderful stuff. So I'm sure that's the good news. And there may be a slightly other set of news to hear.
[5:18] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I didn't want to, I feel like most people call you to share negative stuff off and ask for your advice but I wanted to start on a positive note now that's great for some more, main reason though of the call is like I mentioned I hadn't seen my family for two years and it was a few days before my husband and I were going to get married we got married on his birthday and we eloped and it was very magical and romantic and so much fun very spontaneous anyways I was getting Getting my nails done with one of my friends. Because of course, you know, you're getting married. You have to have nice nails.
[5:58] Understood.
[5:59] And it. To be sitting across from me at the nail salon, it was my mom. And I hadn't seen her in two years.
[6:11] Wow. Okay.
[6:18] And, oh gosh. And so my friend texted me because I didn't notice her at all when I went in, when I went to go sit down. And she texted me. She said, look at your phone. I looked down. and she texted me and she said that's your mom sitting across from you isn't it oh gosh, and then she said what you want to do and i just figured she wouldn't do anything because, like she's very status oriented and at this nail salon it's like very common from well it's in the neighborhood i grew up in and i just didn't think she'd make a scene or anything so it's like it's fine like i don't she won't come say anything i don't think so whatever and then next thing i know, my siblings and my dad come in and i hadn't seen any of them in two years and it was so hard because i didn't know what to do and i regretted not leaving to begin with, and so you think she do you think she texted.
[7:26] Them or was this a coincidence.
[7:28] She did she.
[7:29] Did okay No.
[7:30] She texted them. She texted them to come see me. And first people to come up to me are my two younger siblings. My older brother wasn't there because he lives across the country for work. And my younger siblings come up and they're 17 and 21. One but if you were to talk to them it's they're so immature that's like talking to like a 13 or 14 year old for both of them so it's so hard to treat them like adults.
[8:08] And they use their little innocent i don't there's like use their innocence to manipulate me i feel like and my dad came in and they all come up and like oh oh my gosh nice to see you and my mom walks over and i completely shut down and it's really interesting because it's so hard for me to even remember what was happening because I feel like I just completely shut down um anyways and so I sat there as I got my nails done my mom goes and pulls my friend outside and talks to my friend and I'm in there with my two younger siblings and my dad and they're asking me all these questions about what I've been up to the past two years and I'm sitting and I'm just so uncomfortable about the whole situation and my mom keeps saying to me like what's wrong with you my husband's and my husband and his family have completely manipulated me and are abusing me and taking advantage of me oh gosh and i'm just trying so hard to hold it all together yeah they start with like full back at assault nail salon where they kind of know people that are all around me.
[9:26] And next thing i know i've been talking to them for three hours um i finished my so i got my nails done and then my friend says oh you should stay and talk to them to try or at least talk to your siblings and it puts me in such an awkward situation so i know that like i mentioned earlier you're my all.
[9:47] Right hello hello are we back.
[9:50] Okay hey staff sorry no.
[9:53] I don't think that was you i think that may have been something at my end i don't know i just seem to have all kinds of trouble getting data but i think we're good to go now.
[9:59] No it's all it's all good yeah so sorry you were just talking about how yeah you.
[10:04] Were just talking about how your family kind of all swarmed and your husband was brainwashing you according to them and all of this kind of terrible with stuff they were saying?
[10:16] Yes, exactly. And so basically what happened is my younger two siblings were asking me all these questions about what was going on in my life and my dad was just kind of silent the whole time. And so I wrote it down here and part of me is kind of glad that I cut out there because it gave me a second to regroup my thoughts. Anyways, okay. So after I had finished my nails, my family followed me outside, um while my friend stayed inside and so my mom and i had a superheated discussion like the ones that we used to have two years prior when i was trying to express how i felt towards her and the rest of my family and it goes like something along the lines of you're creating that's not true you're so wrong so a whole bunch of gaslighting and then everyone else oh you mean that's the whole time and.
[11:08] Yeah precisely got it um and so I I started crying and I told my friend that we should leave and my friend told me that we should try to that I should try to talk to my siblings at least.
[11:23] Um and so obviously like I mentioned earlier my mom while I was talking to my siblings originally had brought my friend outside and I don't know I my my friend kind of comes from a similar family dynamic to me, um, and were raised with similar cultures. So I can, an element of respect your elders is very much instilled within her still just to blindly respect the parents. And so she told me that I should go, I should stay and talk to my siblings, even if I didn't want to talk to my parents. Um, and so my parents left and I agreed to talk to my siblings.
[12:03] And so while While talking to my siblings, they kept accusing me of being unreasonable and cruel. And I tried to talk to them about how evil my mom is and how abusive she is and all the harm that she's done, not only to me, but to my siblings. And then my siblings don't even acknowledge any of it. In fact, they say I'm lying, but none of it happened. Happened and despite them doing all this to me like I still want to ask them questions about their life because and part of me still cares about them I guess and so I was so conflicted I was like I want to leave but part of me just wants to stay with them and continue talking to them um and then after walking around the area with my siblings I said I want to leave and they asked me to give them a ride to their car.
[12:59] But then once they'd gone into my car, they refused to get out. And my sister was crying. And my little brother kept saying that I'm so cruel for making my sister cry. And my sister kept saying that we're best friends and that she loves me and misses me. And I asked her, why? Because how could they love me when I'm apparently so cruel and heartless and depressed and all these awful things? And they refused to get out.
[13:26] And my sister kept saying that she didn't want to get out of the car because she was scared that she was she was scared that she'd never see me again and they asked me to pinky promise that, i'll go for a walk with them the following week and i say i'll think about it and eventually kick them out of the car um and the whole reason they asked me to give them a ride was i think to lock me to lock themselves in my car because turned out their car they had recently my family recently had gotten a new car and i didn't know um and so the car was literally like a block away so i didn't need a ride to their car um and then as as soon as they got out of the car i sped away and i broke down like in a hysterical crying fit and all this took place in three hours and And I still don't even know how it was three hours because I feel like I can't even remember half of it because I felt like I just shut down. And so I thought I hadn't made such progress with everything with my family. And this is the reaction I had. Like, I just shut down around my family. I ended up talking to them for so long. I still feel it's so hard for me to separate myself from my siblings.
[14:44] And so I was just wondering if we could talk through, like, why, like why I ended up staying there for three hours and how to overcome this, like, feeling that I need to save my siblings.
[15:01] Yes. No, listen, I, uh, I hugely sympathize. What a, uh, what a ride. Would you have, uh, would you have left the nail salon if you had known? No.
[15:14] Yes. It was going to be such a painful three hours, absolutely.
[15:19] Well, it's not just then. It's all the wounds getting pulled open again, right?
[15:26] Yeah, exactly. Just the feeling of having to even see my mom. I wish in hindsight that I punched her in the face because I hate her so much.
[15:39] Touch. May not have been the wisest. I mean, listen, I understand the impulse.
[15:43] But you know, I know, I know it.
[15:45] May not have been a super low, then they get leverage over you and things get like, but no, I mean, I, I understand the impulse. I really do. I'm glad you didn't do that, but I understand the impulse.
[15:57] No, I probably wouldn't have had the courage in the moment, but you know, after.
[16:00] No, no, that's not a courage thing. That's a wisdom thing. It's not, it's not wise to punch people in the face, even if you dislike them, unless they're running at You were chainsaws, which she may have felt that way emotionally, but it wasn't happening that way physically, right?
[16:15] Yeah, exactly.
[16:18] Why do you think you stayed?
[16:25] You know, I've tried to think through this so many times because, like, knowing my mom, I feel like it was a really ignorant thing, that she wouldn't have come to talk to me. Because I kept telling myself, oh, she won't say anything. She won't come talk to me. I just want to get my nails done and leave. But looking back, my mom at a restaurant once fell and dumped a bottle of water, like a pitcher of water on my head and started screaming at me. I mean, what a stupid thing to think. and, In hindsight, like maybe I feel like I need closure. I don't know.
[17:11] Right, right, right. And what happened after this? You talked to your husband. You said you had a bit of a breakdown, which I understand again. And what was the sort of fallout or how long ago did this happen? And what's been the fallout since?
[17:30] Okay. It would have happened mid-May. And after that i didn't hear from any of my siblings um just my mom sent me messages, on instagram saying because i think i don't think i've actually blocked her number but i think she thinks that i've blocked her number and so she messages me on social media um which i'm not even an active one really um but she sent a couple things like oh come home we love and miss you so much you're being brainwashed um basically along those lines yeah right.
[18:18] Okay and uh how was your i'm sure he was great but how was your husband was all this.
[18:24] Um you know he he was wonderful but I have this thing where like well I came home and his um I came home and we went on a drive somewhere to talk about it and he kept pressing me saying like why why did you stay it's like three hours why would you stay for three hours why didn't you leave initially I mean it's just stupid nails you could have got your nails done the next morning or something and whenever he'd ask questions i just be like i don't want to talk about it and i just i shut down and i get it's just so stressful for me like i feel like my whole it's like a whole body reaction talking about this kind of stuff like i feel like i'm like sweating through my shirt did he uh.
[19:18] Did you have a sense from him that i don't want to put words in his mouth of course right but did it.
[19:25] Feel sort.
[19:25] Of a little bit like accusatory like why on earth would you? Or, you know, what kind of crazy person would stay? Was it something like that? Did you sort of feel like there was a negative response or a negative idea about you staying at all?
[19:41] At first, I'm going to be honest, at first, I think that's part of the reason I was so embarrassed to say that I wanted to talk to my siblings. And then he said something along the lines of, well, do you think it's because you still care about your siblings? And then when he said that, I broke down sobbing. So that's probably the reason I stayed.
[20:07] Well, but you didn't know your siblings were coming at the beginning, right? Your assumption was that everything was going to be relatively hunky-dory, right? Like your mom wasn't going to have a scene and so on, right? It sounds to me, and obviously it's your experience, so tell me what happened, but it sounds to me like you did not anticipate things going the way that they were going, or that they went.
[20:33] I i not think that my siblings and my dad would show up absolutely no way that my mom would call them or a textbook or whatever she did to come over come over and ambush me in a public place like that i no way i thought that couldn't happen now.
[20:54] Why did you not think that would happen and And this is not accusatory at all, right? I'm just genuinely curious. Because, I mean, in hindsight, it makes sense, right?
[21:05] In hindsight, yeah, it does make sense. But maybe part of me thinks that I didn't want to scare away this friend because... During covid i lost a lot of friends and it was nice to finally make a friend with someone with more traditional values and part of me was like oh i because she had never met my mom before that's why she said i think that's your mom um and so part of me was scared to scare her away but you know after how she reacted the whole way like i don't know if i want her to be a friend anymore more after she reapplied how she never she never followed up on anything that happened with my family really and asked me how i was that was my.
[21:57] Next question sort of what happened afterwards um with with your friend.
[22:02] Um she she texted me and saying something along the lines like oh i hope you work things out with your siblings um if you need to talk about it let me know and then she She never followed up, but I thought to myself, I told her absolutely everything that my family would do to me and what my relationship was like with my siblings. And after everything I've told her, I was like, how can you think that it would just be okay after I talked to them for like a couple hours? But maybe, I don't know, maybe I was being too judgmental.
[22:42] And what's her status or what's the status of her relationship with her family?
[22:49] She's basically in my boat three years ago. Like she's her, her parents are, very abusive from what i hear and they she comes from like a traditional mediterranean culture, with a bunch of hotheads and talking to her how she's has to like change plans sometimes last minute because she's fighting with her mom or has to do something for her parents or has a change of plans last minute because her parents are having guests over it just reminds me a lot of myself three years ago right okay and.
[23:27] How what was her perception of your relationship with your family did you think you were taking a break that you were going to work it out that this was temporary or what was her thought about that.
[23:34] I have a feeling that a lot of people that i'd talk to about my family think that it's temporary because a lot of people, really like my parents and they find it very difficult to wrap their head around that they're They're such awful people. But for her, like I mentioned, she hadn't met my family. But I think because of the culture that she grew up with, she just assumed I was fighting with them, even though I kept telling her that this is going to be a permanent thing. I feel like a lot of people find it hard to believe that you can fully detach yourself from your family.
[24:13] Oh, yeah. No, I get that. All right. And how have you been since? in so we'll get more into the details about all of this but how has this been since for you.
[24:24] Um well for the for the first week and a half well basically the next day after that happened um where my husband and i got married it was like you have to take a ferry to get there um and we spent, like five or six days there so i wasn't really worried about anything happening during that time And they knew I mentioned that I have to go home and pack and do this stuff because I'm going away. And so I figured that they, and I knew they were going away as well, because this was all taking place over May long weekend.
[24:59] Right.
[25:02] Um, so I, I kind of knew nothing was happened, but then after that, I was always kind of worried that they'd come over. Cause they kept my, my sister kept saying, well, we're going to come over. My mom was saying, we're going to come over.
[25:13] And this would be to your place with your husband.
[25:16] Yeah. And so I was worried that that might happen, but it didn't happen. And they didn't know that I got married. And then I hadn't used any social media for like, you know, almost two years, really. Maybe even longer. Again, I just I don't like social media, really. But I felt this urge to post about getting married. maybe it's part of it was because I wanted to.
[25:48] Brag that I'm so young and getting married and married for the love of my life like it's just such a wonderful thing um but then part of it was me wanting to tell my parents like f you, like you can't tell me what to do and they and I thought in response to me posting it like I wanted to really hurt them so I thought they would get really mad about it and call me but they didn't, um and after i did that my mom sent me some i don't know she's big into sending these you know like the live love laugh kind of stuff oh yeah it was like oh i'm like one of those parents that doesn't think when you turn 18 your parenting job is over like just come home when you're 34 i want to like do your laundry and when you're 40 i want to see you open your christmas gifts and i was like oh my gosh this is so stupid anyways like being a parent is not just being a nanny and giving gifts but okay um and then yesterday she actually liked the picture the pictures i posted which i was like so surprised about they even like i've changed my last name and whatnot and outside of that nothing negative which is kind of surprising for me first time this has ever happened to me.
[27:06] What do you mean.
[27:08] Where i'm not like where i post something on social media or i do something and i don't get criticized for it right.
[27:16] Right, right okay all right sorry go ahead.
[27:24] And i was just going to add i haven't heard from any of my siblings or my dad right.
[27:30] Right okay and is there more that you want to add because i i have a pile of questions but i'm obviously happy to hear if there's more that you wanted to add.
[27:44] No i'm all done all.
[27:45] Right all right so what has your experience been over the last couple of years of not seeing your family i mean i you've sold me all the positive stuff which is great.
[27:55] Yeah What else? An emotional rollercoaster. There are times that are really, really hard. Because, like, my mom's big into social media, and so maybe I do this to myself, but I definitely do this to myself, knowing that it might hurt me. But i go on to her facebook where she posts all the highlight streams of her life and she just, her first year of not having a daughter in her like me in her life, and she's just traveling all over the world staying at five-star hotels with my other siblings posting about how wonderful her life is and it really hurts because you Obviously.
[28:57] You feel like she doesn't care or it doesn't affect her that much, right?
[29:02] They know where I live and they never came to try to see me once. My dad came. So I graduated in December 2022. And I moved back into my home city, but I moved in with my boyfriend. And my dad came over once when I was at work. And never again. and that was like just after the first christmas um they never sent me any christmas cards, or birthday gifts or christmas gifts or try to come see me which like i know i'm talking about gifts right now but they never put any effort to come try to talk to me in person once i moved back home right for two years and not even my siblings and they can drive so it really sucks.
[29:58] Well does it.
[30:01] Well part of it is liberating because, It's like, wow, you guys.
[30:07] I mean, you could have had these three hours once a week.
[30:11] I know.
[30:12] I mean, doesn't that suck? Sucks because they're not in contact with me. It sucks that they're in contact with me. I almost feel like there's a common denominator. I just can't put my finger on it.
[30:22] It's just awful to think that parents that claim to care so much about you would want to hurt you so much.
[30:32] And then once you cut them off and they still claim to care about you so much, they put no effort into trying to come to see you or trying to fight for you because they're spreading these awful rumors about my husband and his family that they're insanely abusive. And if I'm in such an abusive relationship, you have my husband's contact information. You know where we live. Why would you put effort in to try to take me out of this abusive situation? Sure sure and then i would have my mom's friends come up to me and tell me how like how much my mom loves me and how much she's hurting and how i just need to suck it up and go home right because my mom's suffering and she's my mom as a mother they know what it feels like right Right. And it's just like, it is so, so awful because everyone just looks at me like I'm like, I'm a depressed psycho basically. Because I don't want to have my family in my life.
[31:46] Right. Right.
[31:52] But I mean, that's the negative aspect and the positive aspect is I'm not being told how worthless and how much, how worthless I am every day, how toxic I was to my family. I'm very accomplished for my age and I work very, very hard and I'm very maternal. And when I was home, I'd get up early to make my siblings lunches for school. I'd drive them to school. I helped with all their assignments, university and scholarship applications. I would do all the cooking in the house. I'd do all the cleaning in the house. And in response, I was yelled at. I was told I was worthless, that I should die. I'd have death threats. My mom would throw things at me to the point where I'd have to lock myself in the bathroom and she'd be pounding at the door saying that she was going to get in. She'd kill me. All these pulling me by the hair, throwing dishes at my face. So that's the response I would get for doing all these great things. And then now I continue doing all those great things because I actually enjoy it. And I love being productive and making people feel good and making people feel special. And I don't get that anymore and I get nothing but love in return so it's much better in that aspect.
[33:18] All right all right all right let me know when you're ready for the tough love.
[33:28] I'm ready for the tough love.
[33:30] Ready for the tough love all right yeah well first of all I mean you are such a nice and lovely young lady that I can completely understand why you'd have all of this optimism and this hope and the maybe, maybe, and they've learned because, you know, it's real easy to mistake the world for ourselves when we're nice people. It's pretty easy to say, well, I'm nice, so why is everyone else so not nice? Or maybe they'll learn or they'll cross over, they'll see how great it is to be nice and all of that kind of stuff, right? It doesn't happen in general, but it's very tempting to think that way. And, you know, it is part of your genuinely and generally nice nature that you would think that. So, I just wanted to mention that that makes perfect sense to me. Now, with niceness also comes a great challenge of self-protection. Okay, so in the two years since you last had close contact with your family, or really any contact with your family, what indication have you had that they've changed at all?
[34:32] None.
[34:33] Yeah. So what expectation were you going to have of any change when you saw them again?
[34:48] I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I thought that they would just shut up and listen to my side of the story for once.
[35:01] Okay, why would you think that?
[35:06] It's just wishful thinking. There's no indication that they would change.
[35:09] Okay, I know it's wishful thinking. Why do you have this wishful thinking? I know it's wishful thinking, but why?
[35:20] Because it's what I want in this dream world it's what I want, I want them to change.
[35:28] And why do you want them to change?
[35:36] Well I think like I mentioned before I don't it's hard for me to find friends, like good friends and then these people both that I've grown up with and that I've actually opened up to because I have told them everything, what I feel and everything, that if they would be willing to change, that I could have a family that could be there to support me because I don't have that, I don't have a friend group that could be there for me to help when eventually, when I have kids and stuff. And it really scares me.
[36:18] It scares you about not having people around when you have kids?
[36:23] Yeah, because I want to homeschool them. I know eventually my husband and I, we want to move to the States somewhere for career opportunities and cost of living stuff. Stuff and then it's it won't be that difficult because we don't really have roots here but i just find it so difficult to make friends with people around our age that are in the same days of life as us with the same values as us i just i've never come across it and even with my friend i like that one girl that i've recently been spending a lot of time with within the last year and a half I'm the more time you spend with her the more I realize like we're not that similar after all we're in completely different phases of life um I think she's more talk than she's not as traditional as she lets on and it just makes me nervous because it's so hard to meet people, and so if i could rekindle things with my my family maybe it'd be easier i don't know.
[37:33] So tell me, what is the hardest thing for you about not having as much social contact or not having the kind of friendships that you want?
[37:48] I think it's more, once I, like right now, right now it's fine because my husband and I, I mean, we're working really hard. And then when we're together, I mean, there's no one else I'd rather spend time with because I enjoy his company so much. But when it comes to, I want to have four or five children and homeschool them. And it makes me really nervous that if I don't have family around, how the heck am I supposed to do that on my own when my husband's working?
[38:23] Okay. Got it. I understand. I understand. Okay. All right. Right. And what is your worst case scenario regarding socializing? Let's say you have a bunch of kids, can't find any community. And what's what's the worst case scenario for you there?
[38:42] I mean, I suppose now that I think about it a bit more, I mean, worst case is. Is with my husband's line of work and with all the companies that he could potentially work for he could work from home a lot of the time so it'd be him working from home, And during that time I could have his help and then it would just be him and I and the kids, which I mean, it's not that bad because I enjoy his company so much and he's super helpful and whatnot. But I mean, I don't want the kids just to be our own family and super isolated from everyone. I want them to be able to make friends their own age, you know, other homeschooling kids and whatnot.
[39:30] Okay. And have you ever looked into homeschooling groups? like there are.
[39:37] Lots of people who homeschool and they like to get.
[39:39] Together for lots of different reasons i.
[39:42] Have on like on facebook there's homeschooling groups and i went through this phase of when i deleted all social media but facebook and i was joining all the homeschooling groups and homesteading groups and sourdough groups and stuff so and i did see a lot of people on there but i mean that was like a year and a half ago and all of it was just like, hypothetical i don't have any children so i haven't really i haven't messaged anyone or tried to make friends with anyone so sorry.
[40:17] What do you mean it was hypothetical you mean like you oh yeah i mean i understand if you don't have kids would be a little odd.
[40:21] To join but they're there right they exist they do exist yeah i've looked into it yeah remind.
[40:29] Me where you are with regards to religiosity?
[40:33] I'm not religious, no. I was raised Catholic, but it's not part of my life at all.
[40:40] Now, I'm going to go out on a limb, and I'm going to speak for you, of course, go out on a limb and say that most of the values of, you know, tell the truth and don't steal and all of that, and the sort of Christian values would not be something that you would be, like, innately opposed to or anything, right?
[41:00] No.
[41:01] Yeah, I mean, so, of course, one of the ways that you can gain a community is through Christianity. And to me, if you accept the same values, then you're closer to Christianity than a supposed Christian, like, say, your parents, who don't really accept those values.
[41:28] That's a good point. That's very true. true um i suppose part of the reason that i'm kind of, like intimidated about going make religious to make religious friends because i grew up with a whole bunch of people that claim to be religious they're all a bunch of hot-tempered idiots like Like, you know, have you seen The Sopranos?
[41:56] Yes.
[41:58] You know how that family dynamic is? Picture that like 10,000 times worse than those people that I grew up around. And they all claim to be very Catholic, religious, but they're all full of crap. And beat their kids and their wives and yell at each other and scream and pull hair at their hair. It's just awful. And so, like, how can you claim to be religious when that's what you're like behind closed doors?
[42:29] No, I get that. But of course, you wouldn't judge, I don't think it would be fair to judge all, you know this, right? You can't judge all Christians by your family or community, right?
[42:38] Yeah, no, that's true.
[42:41] Because, you know, good, decent Christians wouldn't want to be around that kind of stuff.
[42:46] It's true, yeah. Any good person wouldn't.
[42:50] Yeah, I mean, this catastrophic clan would be repelling good people left, right, and center, right? So you'd say, well, gee, all the Christians I knew when I was younger were not very good people. And it's like, well, yeah, that's by definition, right? I mean, they're not going to be good people because if they were good people, they wouldn't want to be around your family. Is that a fair way to put it? Yeah.
[43:16] Yes. And I guess another thing worth mentioning about why I'm so hesitant is I grew up with a lot of people who I thought were good people too. And then they support my mom and I say, okay, well, I'll tell you, my mom's very different behind closed doors. And they press me and press me. I said, fine. Okay, well, I'll tell you everything then. And I tell them everything. And then they still tell me to go back to my mom. mom and these are people that like i thought maybe because they're not part of the crazy italian community that they would be different but they still tell me go back to my mom because they say but it's your mom it's your family like you can't just cut off your family.
[44:00] Well and that obviously makes i mean this kind of thinking is the real cult, right i mean if you if there was any social organization or any church where they abused abused you in the way that your parents have abused you and everyone said well you have to go back you have to forgive them you have to spend the rest of your life there that clearly would be a cult.
[44:17] Yeah no it truly would i mean and i i think the best the like the way that i like to explain it to people now is just imagine my husband treating me the way that my mom treated me, you'd tell you'd call the cops on him yes.
[44:36] You would yes you would, So, the worst case scenario is you end up with, okay, let's go with the scenario you end up. For some reason, there's no homeschooling groups that you like. There's no decent people. There's no good people around. For whatever reason, I don't know, some curse has descended upon your bloodline.
[45:05] And it's you, your husband.
[45:07] And five kids. You don't like your neighbors, you don't like anyone in the town, you don't like anyone your husband works with. Even though you become functional and happy and positive and are not susceptible to wrongdoing or wrongdoers, for some reason, you just can't find anyone to spend any time with who's not a total piece of crap. What's the worst case scenario there? Let's say that is the worst case scenario socially. Everyone is abusive. Everyone will betray you no matter where you go and what you do. So what's that then?
[45:52] Well, when you put it like that, it sounds very outlandish. But worst case, then we can move somewhere better and try again.
[45:59] All right. You move to the new place. Everyone is evil. Everyone betrays you. Everyone sides with abusers, and it's just you, your husband, and five kids. You can move again if you want, but I think you'll get the pattern by now.
[46:19] I mean, fortunately, I love my husband so much, and I'm assuming our kids are going to be wonderful too because they'll have him as a dad, so I guess that's not that bad.
[46:34] So we always have to compare our worst case scenario with a non-worst case scenario because i i don't think honestly i don't think this is your worst case scenario by any stretch of the imagination what.
[46:48] Do you think my worst case scenario is.
[46:50] Going back getting swallowed up and being blind to the corruption again and being exploited and abused for the rest of your life well.
[46:59] That does sound much worse yeah i.
[47:01] Mean possibly and then losing the love of your husband because he's so traumatized and then handing your children over to their grandparents who are abusive and destructive and tell the kids all kinds of lies about you and you know all this kind of stuff they work to destroy your marriage they work to destroy your happiness your peace of mind they work to destroy your reputation and you just get swallowed up in your your siblings drama and then you go back to the family and they now really lord it over you and they can say whatever they want to you because you just hurt them so much that there's no, you know, they're just going to get back at you for the rest of your life.
[47:40] You know, it does sound horrible, and I did get a glimpse into that because, I mean, back in our call in July 2022, so my husband did the call first, and then I had a separate call with you. And after you had the call with him, you said, like, your, I guess, girlfriend at the time claims to love you so much. Like, what has she done to prove it? And i think there's like after that call there's a few weeks where our relationship was kind of raw because i was like oh crap like i'm gonna have to stand up to my family otherwise i'm gonna lose him i.
[48:23] Think i did also tell him to support you in some of the conflicts you were having with your family i don't think it was quite.
[48:29] Yes yeah i just wanted to balance it out but yeah I know but the whole prove it aspect I mean it's what I needed to hear because I hadn't been fair to him for the prior like I don't know I guess we had been together for like three years at that point and I was just sucking him into oh yeah the deep black hole of abusive names for my family like oh my gosh they're just awful disgusting people and so I think that's what I needed to here because it's a huge reality check like oh shoot like if i don't do something i'm gonna lose him yeah so i did something and now we're married so that's great yeah step by step yeah all right.
[49:12] So to me the worst sorry if there's more that you wanted to add to that.
[49:15] No that's okay so yeah the worst case scenario is you.
[49:18] Take that you take that three hours and stretch it out forever.
[49:25] Ever oh shivers just went up my spine yeah yeah because.
[49:28] It doesn't end unless you end it right.
[49:33] How do i just end it i mean i'd, other than just not talking to them i mean the thought i can block them on everything.
[49:46] Well i can't you know.
[49:47] I can't give you any practical yeah.
[49:48] I can't give you any practical steps so that's that sort of technical so give me the scenario like what happens in their mind in their thoughts in their conversation that has them change and become good and thoughtful and sensitive and caring and curious and i know this sounds kind of cynical i don't mean it that way like genuinely in your mind what is the sequence that could occur that would have that happen? What would need to change? What would need to happen in their mind and their conversations and their thoughts for that desired outcome to occur?
[50:32] I guess they'd have to think and reflect back on the previous conversations I had with them two years back in the most recent time and think, you know, this is what that daughter X was saying. So maybe we should listen to her and go from there.
[50:57] What would stimulate that thought? Right. Right, because, I mean, they've had decades, like a quarter century, give or take, with you, with self-righteousness and being right and never doubting and never questioning and blaming you for everything. So they've had that. And so what would jolt them out of that? What do you think would get them out of that, get them to jump that train track?
[51:20] Like, realistically, I feel like one of my other siblings standing up to them, but I can't see any of my siblings doing that.
[51:28] Okay so if another one uh how many siblings you have again.
[51:32] Three three.
[51:34] Okay so if another one of your siblings were to stand up and you know call it like it is and uh you demand change and so on then you think that might be enough to to change them.
[51:50] Yeah because i mean growing up it was very evident like and everyone like everyone outside side of her family would even remark on this that i was clearly like my mom's least favorite and so if my older brother for example oh not for example if my older brother did it oh for sure she would reflect because my older brother is my mom's favorite child.
[52:15] And do you know why he's her favorite child i know.
[52:19] First first child no first born son no Nope. Because he does exactly what she says?
[52:26] Yeah, because he'll never do that.
[52:28] Yeah, exactly. No, he is her little minion. He is such a mama's boy. Just all he wants to do is please her.
[52:42] Yeah, he's scared and swallowed up and, you know, he's merged, right?
[52:48] Yeah. You know, it's funny that you use the word merge, because usually when my husband and I use it, we say we're merged, but we use it with a positive connotation.
[52:56] Right, right, right. Yeah, you've become one flesh, which is totally appropriate for husband and wife, not so appropriate for mother and son or mother and daughter. One flesh? No, no, no. You start that way, then you separate so that you can go merge with someone your own age. All right. Okay, so it's not going to come from your brother. So where else might it come from? Do you think it would come from some internal reflection?
[53:24] I don't, I don't think my mom's capable of that.
[53:29] Well, there's no evidence for that, right?
[53:32] She's no, she's never, ever, ever been like that. And she always gets what she wants. And when she doesn't get what you want, she throws a temper tantrum. And she's so terrifying, throwing things, pulling hair, punching holes in the wall and hitting people and scratching.
[53:49] And when she had the opportunity to see, like, she not just had the opportunity, she did see you, right? Now, if you were her and you were estranged from a child who, I don't know, fallen under bad influences, let's just say, right? If you were your mother and you saw across the nail shop your daughter who had not talked to you for two years, what would you do?
[54:20] Oh, that's my biggest fear.
[54:24] Sorry, what's your biggest fear? I'm trying to keep track of all these biggest fears. There's a lot of them.
[54:28] I know.
[54:29] It's like Jurassic Park. All the monsters are loose.
[54:33] I don't like to not have a good relationship with my daughter.
[54:36] Okay, so let's say, for whatever reason, right? So how would you handle the situation if you saw your daughter across the nail shop?
[54:46] Up i'd go up to talk to her and.
[54:50] What would you say.
[54:54] I'd ask her if after she was done getting her nails done if we could go across the street to the coffee shop and talk and.
[55:05] Then she would say um you can talk now.
[55:09] And so So, I'd ask her about why she doesn't want me in her life anymore.
[55:20] Well, I assume that she would have told you some things, and you would have had a chance to reflect, right? So, you wouldn't probably want to put the whole burden on her. You'd say, here are the things that I did wrong in the relationship, for which I'm bottomlessly and deeply sorry.
[55:40] And this isn't a demand for us to become best buddies. I just want you to know that I have really thought about it. I've actually done almost two years of therapy. I've been going three hours a week. I've done anger management. I look back, and I'm really appalled at the things that I did, and my heart is broken at how I treated you. And I am so sorry. This is not any kind of demand. I would love, obviously, to have more conversation, but that's up to you. That's up to you. and I actually hugely respect you for giving me a wake-up call. You know, I was watching this show, it's on TV, called Intervention. And people who are addicts, all their friends and family, they get together and they say, you've got to change or we're not going to have anything to do with you. And you stopped seeing me, and that was a very courageous thing to do, that was a very hard thing to do.
[56:36] And it's exactly what i needed because i realized i was addicted to rage uh self-righteousness i'm being a bit more your mom in this situation than you yeah right but i i you were the one who stood up to me and you were the one who stood up for what was best in me by not accepting what was worst in me and i love you for that and i'm i'm so sorry that i put you in that position that I was so blind to the, ugliness of my will and personality that you are the one, who had to stand up and say things have to change and they did have to change I don't want to be going back to being the kind of mother who did that I mean it's appalling to me, and you know my gosh if I did that to you and I think of.
[57:29] Doing that to my grandchildren, I'm sick. I'm sick to my stomach at what I did to you. And I applaud you enormously and deeply, and I thank you enormously and deeply for taking a stand and forcing change. And to your credit, and I'm aware of this, you spoke for years about the need for change, and we just didn't listen. That's not your fault. That's 100% my fault and your father's fault. Well, maybe 101% his fault. But you tried using your words what to be you know we always said use your words not your fists right you tried using your words for years and we didn't listen and then you finally had to say and you were right to say it this can't go on this can't go on and through you standing up, for the best within me or at least not bowing down to the worst within me it really did shock me into a kind of change and i am deeply deeply ashamed of so much that i did and i'm deeply ashamed that you are the one who had to take the stand and i'm sorry, now if your mother had said something like that to you what would you think.
[58:52] I'd be so take i'd be stunned more stunned than i was with how she reacted and the man pushing me like i would have been so surprised.
[59:02] Right i.
[59:03] Think that's some i think it's impossible for her to be okay.
[59:07] Well uh you know i i give you a speech like that because your mother won't ever, And that's the speech you deserve. That's the speech you've earned. And that's speech that, in a sense, you should never have had to receive, because your mother should have dealt with all of this before it got to this point. And the universe, your mother won't give you that speech. Nobody in your family is going to give you that speech, but somebody should.
[59:36] No i i'm i'm with you there and even like i thought maybe my dad would stand up a bit more, but over the last two years i feel like my anger has grown the most for him or towards him, like oh he's just he's such a simp and he's just so awful the way that like there are so many red red flags in my parents' relationships that I learned after the fact because I was talking, a lot with my mom's younger brother and his wife, so my aunt and uncle, and they were telling me all this information about what their relationship was like that I was totally unaware of. You know the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding or whatever it's called?
[1:00:24] I certainly do. Yeah. I saw that with my wife when we were dating.
[1:00:28] Yeah, she's Greek, right?
[1:00:30] Yeah.
[1:00:31] Yeah. So I was told that that was the kind of wedding that my parents had and that my parents had this incredible love story. And that apparently couldn't be further from the truth. They broke up many times because of my mom's temper and her hitting my dad and throwing stuff. And they called off two weddings and a loaf. And I was told my whole life that they had this big extravagant wedding. Wedding and my dad knew all this going into the relationship his parents didn't approve of my mom because they said she had too hot a temper and they didn't want to go to the first two weddings and that's why they called off the first two weddings and ended up eloping because his parents refused to go and yet they still got married my dad still picked this crazy abusive woman to be, the mother of his four children.
[1:01:29] Right. And that's a sin. I mean, whether you think of it in terms of Christianity or not, that is a sin. Whether it was lust or, I don't know, maybe she was super pretty or whatever, right? But there is a huge amount of sin involved in pursuing someone to be the mother of your children who is abusive even to someone bigger than her. And if she's abusive to someone even bigger than her, what's she going to be like with people smaller, little babies, toddlers, children who are smaller?
[1:02:01] Yeah, and that's what she's like towards my dad when she was 10 years his senior. And my dad was basically partner at a huge firm making insane money and could have gotten anyone. And because he's genuinely outside of his weird sim nature and masochistic nature because he picked my mom he's actually like a really nice guy to talk to and spend time with outside of my like outside of any emotional support you know like he's actually enjoyable to spend time with and he could have picked anyone he picks a psycho woman to be the mother of his kids and i told him this and he said he said well you can just do what i do if you don't want to put up with it and just stick your head in the sand well.
[1:03:01] You can't do that as a kid though.
[1:03:05] No instead i just hid in their walk-in closet behind all his dress shirts so that they couldn't get me right right.
[1:03:14] You know there's a it's a funny meme uh and it popped into my head when you were describing your parents' relationship. It's not really that appropriate to your parents, but it's kind of funny where somebody was saying like, okay, so quiet, shy guys, why do you always end up with these fiery, emotional women? And the reply was, well, someone's going to have to tell the waiter, someone's going to have to tell the waitress that I didn't order mashed potatoes and it's going to.
[1:03:40] Be me that's so true oh it's so true my mom like whenever we'd go to a hotel and something was wrong she'd go off on the people and start like cursing at them in italian under her breath and stuff and i was like oh this is just so unattractive how can a guy won't be attracted to a woman, but it's so true. Right.
[1:04:04] Now, If it's not going to come from your brother, it's not going to come from your mother's internal reflections. So those of us, I mean, it's called an observing ego, right? Which is, you look at yourself and compare yourself to some external standard.
[1:04:25] Right? So most parents, they don't want to be yelling at their kids. They don't want to be hitting their kids and so on. And the parents who solve that or fix that are the parents who look at their own behavior and feel bad. In other words, I'm not reaching the standard that I want. This is a long way. And this is what I say when I see parents being abusive in public. I go and I say, look, this is not really how you want to be a parent, is it? Like, this isn't what you dreamed about when your wife got pregnant that you'd be like screaming at your kids. It's like, this is not how you want to be. I know this is not how you want to be. This is not what you dreamed of and all of that. And so it doesn't seem to me that, I mean, obviously your mother's more vivid in my mind than your father, but it doesn't seem the case for anyone in your family. No one in your family, outside of you, through some heaven-sent miracle, no one in your family seems to be able to compare their behavior to any outside standard. They are their own standards. Whatever I do is right. If someone angers me, it's because they're a terrible person and I can just go off on them.
[1:05:36] Because your mother handled, let's say you had been brainwashed by your husband, right? Let's say, right? Well, you'd still need to be humble enough as a parent to say, well, what deficiencies in parenting did I commit that my kid gets brainwashed? But also, if you are brainwashed by your husband, then getting in your face and snarling, you've been brainwashed by your husband, right, is exactly the wrong thing to do.
[1:06:08] So, if they genuinely believed you've been brainwashed by your husband, then they would look up, how do you deal with someone who's been brainwashed? And the last thing you do is scream at them that they've been brainwashed. Like, that's the absolute wrong thing to do, according to just about every expert I've ever read on the subject. So, even if they genuinely believed that, they would look it up, and they'd talk to experts, and they'd try and figure out how to solve it. And they wouldn't ever do what they did. So even in screaming at the Jew that you've been brainwashed and turned against your family, even in doing that, they're doing exactly the wrong thing. They're just indulging their own anger and trying to, in a sense, smash you into compliance.
[1:06:51] No, that's 100% what they're doing. My whole life, my mom would just try to bully me into what she wanted me to be, to do what she wanted me to do. And i know i keep bringing her up but like all everyone else in the family is there's nothing in comparison to her like.
[1:07:08] She's just so obvious right so so she's she's the indisputable one right in other words her behavior is so egregious and and and immoral and outrageous that anyone who can't see that you know the kids the kids have it really hard to get neglected, because like what do you say you know well I spent quite a lot of time in my room and I didn't really feel a very strong connection to my parents they always seemed to be kind of busy you know as opposed to you know like your mother death threats and fists through walls and physical violence that's so in your face and outrageous that anyone who can't see that I mean it makes sense to me that you would talk about your mother because anybody who can't see that is beyond hope so, So, let's go back to the nail salon.
[1:08:00] Okay.
[1:08:03] Why didn't you leave? And again, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't have, but I'd like to know your thinking process as to why you didn't. You see your mom across. Your heart starts pounding. This is a crisis moment, right?
[1:08:25] Yeah.
[1:08:26] What do you say to yourself that you stay?
[1:08:31] I said, this is what I thought. And this is like, that's what I texted. I texted my friend too. And I said, don't worry, it's fine. She won't make a scene.
[1:08:44] Okay. But who cares? Right and first of all that was incorrect right it was incorrect okay but that's so no there has to be a thought there so to to even want to stay you have to be thinking something right.
[1:09:01] Maybe part of me was curious to see what would happen i.
[1:09:04] Don't think so because you had no evidence over the course of your entire life that anything different would happen, and that's that's a that's a pretty dangerous thing to be curious about you know like if i've been mauled by a lion five times and then i reach out to pet a lion well i'm just curious what might happen like that doesn't make any sense right and you were mauled a whole lot more than five times right yeah okay so it's not that and.
[1:09:37] I'm thinking really hard how um, I'm, I'm not sure. I mean, I could sit here and think about it for five minutes, but I don't know.
[1:09:52] Was there, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so if this doesn't fit, just let me know. But was there any part of you, and this may be a male side of me, so it could be totally wrong. But was there any part of you was like, well, screw you. I'm not moving. I'm not leaving. Not driving me off.
[1:10:07] No, a hundred percent, actually. And that's another thing I said. I said, you know, I'm getting my nails done for my wedding I'm not going to let her rob me of that joy Okay.
[1:10:18] So you got into a plant your feet and protect your property and protect your, goal get my nails done you're not pushing me out.
[1:10:32] Yeah and part of me so, where we live there's like the area that i grew up in and then there's the neighboring, town i don't know like suburb i don't know what you'd call it anyways, they don't really feel very suburb but whatever suburb whatever great word it really should be the word um but whenever i go let's say to the other side of town where i grew up in part of me is always scared that i'll see my family but i always think like you guys can't claim this area and my family is part of this country club and i haven't been taken off the membership and i know no one in my family really goes but part of me is always nervous they'll bump into them or someone i know when i'm there but i like i'm like screw you guys like this is a very nice place i want to come and enjoy it and like i'm not gonna let you guys claim everything you can't claim this whole town and then whenever i go in this area and bump into you can't just ruin everything for me and ruin my whole life i deserve to enjoy some beauty and they do.
[1:11:45] They can ruin everything for you. This happened weeks ago, right?
[1:11:50] Yeah, I guess, yes.
[1:11:51] No, no, I mean, listen, I'm a big one for courage. I really am. I mean, I hope I've got some credibility that I'm a decent one for courage. But not running into lawnmowers, you know, not running into threshing machines or sticking your hand in a blender. Oh, I'm so correct. But the fact is that they do have that power, and how could they not? They raised you. They're always going to have that power over you.
[1:12:18] They totally do. I totally shut down when my mom was there. I shut down.
[1:12:22] Okay, so hang on. So where does this tough talk come from that is not, like, if you had some guy, he'd been at war for five years, right? And a year after he came back from war, you said, hey, let's go see some, I don't know, giant blood-speared war movie like Saving Private Ryan or, I don't know, Full Metal Jacket or something like that. And he's like, yes, I'm ready. I'm not going to avoid war movies. I'm not going to let them own that theater. Like, would that be sensible?
[1:12:57] No.
[1:12:58] No. Maybe, maybe 20 years after, but this is soon in your life. This is like only 10% of your life has been spent, less than 10% of your life, and only maybe about 40% of your adult life has been spent not in contact with your parents. So why? Because you have this bravado thing, and I guess I'm trying to figure that out. Like look I mean it's been 25 years since I've seen my mother and if I you know if she showed up at my doorstep I'd crap my pants.
[1:13:41] I don't know maybe I go back and forth because I think wow the fact I stood up, stood up to who I think is the devil on earth the fact that I was able to do that sometimes I feel kind of invincible but then And I sometimes go back and forth.
[1:14:02] Okay, so hang on. Who feels invincible in your relationship with your mother?
[1:14:13] Okay, well, my mom's probably the more invincible one. She gets away with anything.
[1:14:19] Right. Your mother feels invincible because she can't be corrected and can't feel like she ever did anything wrong and can't admit fault and never apologizes. So this invincible stuff is coming from your mother, not from you. I'm going to stake out my territory and I'm not going to get pushed around. Right, that's your mother. I'm not backing down. I mean, that's your mother. No, listen, my friend, back the heck down. If there's a lion, you back down, don't you? If there's a shark in the water, don't you get out of the water? I'm not going to let the shark drive away me from my paddling. It's like, you're going to lose a limb, man. She's a kind of predator that dominated your life for like 20 plus years. How are you supposed to fight that? The only way you can fight your mom is by becoming your mom, which trust me, you really, really don't want to do because then you'll lose your husband.
[1:15:31] I absolutely do not want to do that. When I was younger, I never wanted to get married and never wanted kids. Like i'm still quite young but you know like in my teens and yeah early like early 20s i guess i'm still early but anyways because i was so scared of having a relationship like my mom and dad do and having a relationship with my kids like i do with my mom okay.
[1:15:58] So let's go back to the nails now salon.
[1:16:01] Okay and it's so.
[1:16:02] Appropriate that the nails are claws right it's.
[1:16:05] Appropriate in the fang-sharpening store.
[1:16:09] So, you stayed, my friend, because your mother wanted you to stay so that she could exercise power over you, and you're so used to complying to her, as we all are with our parents, especially if they're dysfunctional. You stayed because she wanted you to stay.
[1:16:34] Now that you mention it but i mean that makes sense.
[1:16:37] Because there's nothing there's no benefit to you right.
[1:16:42] No i could probably go get my nails done somewhere else for cheap.
[1:16:46] Right right you would you would get your nails done somewhere else and you'd say well i'm glad like you don't if you get if you get out of the water when there's a shark in there do you have any regrets no no like.
[1:17:01] Few few i saved my arm.
[1:17:02] Yeah fantastic i'm glad i noticed my mom, you get up, you walk out, and you breathe a sigh of relief, like, I got out of the water. Because you're like the person in the horror movie who's like, you go for help, I'll follow the bloody footprints. You know, it's like everyone's screaming like, don't, don't, right? And then you contacted the person who gave you bad advice. So let's say, well, hang on, let's say that you had texted your husband saying, my mom's Right here in the store.
[1:17:50] Yeah.
[1:17:51] What would he say?
[1:17:53] Get out.
[1:17:54] Let's say, like, somehow you had texted me and I'd been working or whatever and see it pop up. Hey, Stef, I'm right here. My mom's right in the store. I haven't seen her in two years. What should I do? What would I say?
[1:18:07] Run.
[1:18:08] Despawn. Take the vents. Whatever you need to do. Beam out. Scotty, beam out. Right. right i i would say get out.
[1:18:17] Yeah no i might no go ahead sorry my husband would have said the same thing too but but i i know where he was but anyways he didn't have his he didn't see the text until later so okay so you did text him before you texted your friend is that right, no my my my friend yeah i i texted before i text my friend that we should stay yes Yes.
[1:18:45] Okay. So you did text your husband, but he just wasn't, he didn't see the message or whatever, right?
[1:18:49] Yeah, exactly.
[1:18:50] Okay. So when I asked you, oh, this sounds, always sounds so accusatory. Hey, when I asked, but when, when I asked you, what would your husband say? You said he'd tell me to get out.
[1:19:03] Yes.
[1:19:04] So why did you need to text him? Why doesn't your inner husband, your internalized husband, give you good advice? He would, right? If you said, what were you expecting him to text back, get out, then why not just take that advice that you knew was coming and get out?
[1:19:29] Because the internalized mother overshadowed the internalized husband.
[1:19:33] Well, that's a very correct answer, and I think it's very interesting. But you then text your friend, right? And your friend says, stick around.
[1:19:47] Perhaps I was testing her?
[1:19:50] Well, it's high stakes. It's high stakes because you could also text her and she says, stick around. You're like, okay, she failed the test and get out. So if wise people in your mind were telling you to get out and unwise people on your phone were telling you to stick around, then the question is, why stay? Now, we can say, well, your mother wanted you to stay, but there has to be a mechanism by which that is achieved.
[1:20:27] So there has to be a thought. And maybe the thought is, I'm not giving up my square. I'm not giving up my nails. I'm going to stick it out and I'm going to, what, are you going to win? You're going to win. I mean, what did you think might happen? You think she would just ignore you, walk out and you'd win. Like, what do you mean? What's going to happen?
[1:20:51] That's kind of, that's what I was telling myself.
[1:20:55] But she was going to see you there. She was going to ignore you and she was just going to stomp out, not say a word. And then you'd own the space. Is it something like that?
[1:21:07] Yeah, because we didn't even make eye contact.
[1:21:11] I'm sorry, say again?
[1:21:12] We didn't even make eye contact. I didn't even know, because I didn't notice her, so I was like, well, maybe she didn't even notice me.
[1:21:19] No, but she's probably going to notice you, right? I mean, I don't know how big this salon is, but she's probably going to notice you, right?
[1:21:26] Yeah, heck, we were right across from each other, you know, in those chairs with you. You put your feet in the little pool.
[1:21:32] Oh, gosh. Did you have fish eating your feet?
[1:21:37] Ew, no.
[1:21:39] No, because, you know, there's that thing.
[1:21:41] Have you ever bitten a nail sloth?
[1:21:42] No, no, but some of the Asian ones, they have these fish that chew on your feet. You've not heard of this?
[1:21:50] No, no, I know exactly what you're talking about, because one time we were in Mexico, and we made my dad do that.
[1:21:56] Nice.
[1:21:57] Yeah.
[1:21:58] No wonder he's upset. Okay.
[1:22:00] He's taking that on me, revenge. Right, right.
[1:22:04] Okay so you're literally sitting foot to foot with your mom.
[1:22:09] It's a it's a it's a very big nail salon but like we are across the room for each other so we're probably like i don't know like 20 feet apart maybe so she's she's.
[1:22:21] Gonna see you.
[1:22:22] Yeah okay.
[1:22:23] So your idea is she's not gonna make a scene because that would be low status right.
[1:22:31] Yeah especially she's so status oriented and then she's like oh nope sorry my name oh um oh so.
[1:22:40] And so yeah daughter of my.
[1:22:42] Like i can't like so sorry though like i can't believe you're in this abusive relationship just come home we'll take care of you oh my gosh and then And it escalates and escalates. But I just, like, the fact that you would just call me out in front of him. And then there was literally a mom that we know from a very wealthy family that walks by and says hi in the middle of all this. And she still goes off. And I was like, what are you thinking? Like, how? That was very unusual. Like, that she would continue escalating when there are people that we kind of know around.
[1:23:26] Well i'm sorry to be annoying um but i think that this is a maybe a bit of a tough thing that you have to empathize with your mom so i can tell you why she escalated why is that because everyone knows that you haven't talked to her for two years, And so she needs everyone to know how in the wrong you are and how right she is and how angry she is and outraged she is that you haven't talked to her in two years because everybody knows. So she can't hide it because everyone knows. So the only thing she can do is win.
[1:24:08] That makes sense because she keeps framing herself as the victim.
[1:24:11] Yeah. Oh, poor me. My daughter got swept up in some terrible guy marriage, blah, blah, blah. And woe is me. And she's terrible. And she's disrespectful. right so so she can't hide it like if if this was hidden then i could totally understand her not, escalating but given that everybody knows the only thing she can do is tough it out and and attack.
[1:24:36] And continue playing the victim card that makes sense that makes sense well.
[1:24:40] The attack victim card of course.
[1:24:42] Yeah right right, so and the.
[1:24:50] Thought sorry you're gonna say.
[1:24:53] Well i was just gonna say okay so if the reason i stayed to get my nails done was because i want like maybe partly because my inner mom was saying do this because this is what i want you to do and And then partly because I was wanting to claim my territory.
[1:25:14] So let's say that's the reason I stayed. But why would I agree to go for a walk with my siblings for like two and a half hours or whatever it was?
[1:25:24] Well, because you're looking for allies. You're hoping, you're hoping against hope that they're going to see your point of view and join you in your criticisms of your mother.
[1:25:41] That makes sense yeah no that that does make sense and.
[1:25:44] So you feel that if you just get the right words across right they'll finally understand me yeah if you just get the fine if you just find a way to unlock the keys of their heart then, Everything will be fine. And you'll have allies and you'll have a community and you'll win and your mom will lose. Or at least she might change based upon everyone's consistent feedback that if you just have some allies, everything's going to be so much better. Right? That isn't that going to be, isn't that sort of your big thought and idea? And I understand that. My gosh, totally.
[1:26:28] Yeah. Definitely. because even even like i said now i hate my dad and i didn't even want to engage in conversation with him but um back in like two two years back i was really trying so hard for him to understand my perspective and it's you know how i said my older brother is my mom's favorite well it's very evident that i'm my dad's favorite and so i was like i always listened to my dad complain about my mom to me and i was always his ally standing up for him to my mom and to my siblings especially to my older brother because my older brother's insanely disrespectful disrespectful to my dad even though my dad literally buys him like whatever the heck he wants and like pays for everything for him yeah um he's just so rude to him anyways so i always would stand up for my dad and i thought you know what maybe maybe i could get win him over and i spent so many hours talking to him expressing myself which and it didn't get anywhere telling him how i felt about everything saying these things happened to me because my dad he's very successful in his career and wasn't around a lot was traveling a lot always working long hours and whatnot so i was like these things Things happen when you weren't around.
[1:27:51] Well, sorry, just by the by, this is why he says, just stick your head in the sand. Of course, he was successful in his career. He didn't want to be home.
[1:27:59] Yes. Yeah, exactly. During COVID, he was working on the other side of the country and he would say, I am so excited to go run away to my place on the other side of the country because your mom is driving me crazy. And I'm like, tell me about it. Yet I have to stay here and put up with it forever. Whereas you can just leave whenever you want. Sometimes he'd be gone for a month at a time traveling all over the world.
[1:28:26] Sure probably didn't even have to my dad went to africa yeah i mean he basically tunneled through the earth and emerged perpendicular to where he started he couldn't have gone further away while still staying on the planet i don't blame him i wanted to go to africa too just not with my father so yeah right um.
[1:28:46] So like i tried to get an ally to my dad and didn't get me anywhere and And with my older brother, I know he's impossible. I hate my older brother. He's just like my mom. He's very mean to me. But then my two younger siblings who play this little innocence card and act like they're tweens or whatever you call it. I'm like, well, since they're so young and immature, maybe they're more open-minded.
[1:29:17] Yeah. And how's that theory going?
[1:29:22] Pretty horribly right pretty horribly.
[1:29:26] Okay so let me ask you this would you say that overall in life you have a good conscience i don't know what a perfect conscience or you know but a good conscience you've done you haven't done great harm to people that at least that you haven't apologized for and you've been um you know pretty dedicated towards goodness and and virtue and so on and you haven't, you know, threatened children with death or, you know, things like that. Would you say that overall you have a pretty good conscience?
[1:29:58] Yes.
[1:29:58] Right. That's your weakness. Straight up. So, the weakness is not having a good conscience. That's a great strength. What's the weakness I'm talking about?
[1:30:09] Maybe coming across too nice and so people can easily take advantage of me.
[1:30:14] Yeah, but why? Why? Because I think the great weakness of having a good conscience is you think that other people can change. Because if you have a good conscience, you can change. But if you have a really bad conscience, change is too ugly.
[1:30:39] I remember on an original call-in, you said, it'd be so difficult for my parents to acknowledge the harm that they did.
[1:30:46] Yeah.
[1:30:48] So it's better just not to have to change.
[1:30:51] Well, you say better. I mean, I don't even know that it's possible after a certain amount of time. You know, after a certain amount of cigarettes, you don't get to be a marathon runner. And you know i i can i can very very very much i don't have any proof of this but i can totally understand why my father didn't want to have anything to do with me for the last i don't know five to ten years of his life i think he got to a place of relative peace which was pretty tough for him and i think that he laid his ghosts to rest he had a graveyard of the past where things didn't stir and if he'd had a you know because the big question is well why didn't he contact me when he got old when he was unwell to make and i think it's because he needed to have some peace because he didn't have much peace over the course of his life and i think he needed to have some peace later later in his life and i was too tough for his conscience it would have been very very difficult, for him and and i think functionally impossible and i i don't even really blame him i mean you You know, peace is a good thing to have. Peace of mind is a good thing to have. And if poking around wrongs you did 50 years ago that you can't fix and that you've ignored for half a century, like, what is the point? It's like a surgeon digging up a body from a botched surgery 50 years ago.
[1:32:17] Like, what's the point?
[1:32:23] Yeah, fair. Especially when they've done so much harm. Because for me, after I did the call-in with you in July 2022, there was some friendships that I kind of ended point blank because my mom was just making them too painful. And I ghosted some people and I sent them long letters apologizing, explaining what happened and how it wasn't nice for me to do what I did. But that's very different than what my mom did. Like me being a kid saying, like, I'm sorry I ghosted my high school best friends. Whereas for my mom and me, sorry I inflicted years of abuse on my children and husband. Yeah.
[1:33:15] So, because you haven't harmed children for decades, you think that the change that is available to you is available to others. And it's not. It's not available because they have such a terrible conscience, that, change would be, see, change requires that you can, change requires that you can compare your life to some higher standard but if you had the capacity to do that in the first place, you wouldn't have abused your children anyway. Or you would have started and stopped because you'd be like, oh gosh, this is just too terrible. The things I'm doing are just too awful. So if they had the capacity for change or any kind of comparison of what they're doing to some higher standard, they wouldn't have been abusive to begin with. So there is no functional possibility of this kind of change, because they wouldn't need to change if they had the capacity to change earlier.
[1:34:43] If beating your child, if putting your fist through walls, if threatening to murder your child or kill your child, if that's not enough to bring you up short and say, oh gosh, you know, especially when you're a Christian, right? Because Christianity has a lot to do with protection and tender care of children. So if beating your child is not enough, At all. To have you change, how are those child's words much later going to be enough? Like literally hitting your child is not enough to cause you to even question a tiny bit what you're doing. How are mere words 20 years later going to be enough?
[1:35:36] You know stefan when i was much younger my mom and dad were fighting and my mom threw a glass at my dad and it hit the ground and shattered and sliced my sister my baby sister's head um like right just right above the eye and she had to go to the hospital and get stitches, and like heck if that's not a wake-up call right if that's not a wake-up call rats like heck she ended up in the hospital could have been blind yes so that's not enough right just missed her eye yeah if.
[1:36:13] That's not enough you know uh i remember when i was younger a friend of mine uh said that he was having some fight with his girlfriend and he he got so angry that he He punched, they were sitting in a car and he punched the window of the car and it cracked the window, like the windshield of the car, right? And then they had to make up this big story. I think that she said, oh, we were on the highway and a truck obviously kicked up some gravel and it hit her window, like all of that sort of stuff, right? And he said, he said, oh man, you know, I got to do something about my temper. Like I just, I just smashed the windshield of a car. And he did he went to get some anger management he did some therapy you know dealt with his temper now that's just breaking that's just cracking some glass some safety glass even right.
[1:37:08] So, if for your mother hitting a child, you know, maybe as you say, like, shattered glass around a toddler where you've got to go to the hospital, if that's not enough, and it's not enough for your father to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, what are we doing? This is crazy, right? Right? So if none of that is enough for them to change, it's kind of like this. So have you ever eaten something, you drink some milk or you bite into something and it's like really gone off? Like it happens with yogurt sometimes or it can happen with luncheon meat. Like you just bite into it and you're like, oh God, this is gross. Right? And you have to rinse out your mouth and drink some mouthwash and it's like repulsive. Right?
[1:37:54] Yeah.
[1:37:55] So if you've been eating disgusting, vile, infected, decayed food for 30 years, and you've not noticed that there's anything wrong, in fact, you love it, and someone comes along and says, you know, that food is not good. That's not good food. What are you going to say?
[1:38:21] Um, yeah, it's not good food.
[1:38:24] Well, no, you're going to say it's fine. What are you talking about?
[1:38:27] Yeah, sorry. If you've been eating it for 30 years or whatever.
[1:38:30] And you think it's great. You think it's great food. It's wonderful food. It's tasty food. And someone comes along and says, oh, no, this food is rotten and it's going to kill you.
[1:38:40] You'd say, whoa, whoa, what's wrong with you? Like, yeah, maybe your taste buds are off.
[1:38:44] Yeah, it tastes great. Like, no, but who will be able to convince you that the food is rotten if it looks and tastes great to you and you've been eating it and been healthy for 30 years. Who's going to be able to tell you that? No one.
[1:38:55] For me, it was my husband.
[1:38:57] Well, but no, you weren't eating the food. The food is bad behavior.
[1:39:03] Okay. Okay, I understand. Right.
[1:39:05] So if you think your soul is golden when it's absolutely rotten and you don't experience any of the rottenness of your soul, you don't experience anything negative in what you're doing, then who is going to tell you I mean, it's like somebody telling you, uh, you know, you think you like having an orgasm, but you're wrong. It's like, no, I think I'm fairly right about that. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that you're not correct about that. So if somebody has done rotten things and for decades, and they've never experienced anything as rotten and they think they're doing the right thing and it's healthy and and it's right, and it's good, and you think you're going to tell someone that they're wrong, how is that possibly going to work? If somebody were to come to you and say, well, you know, listen, friend, you think you love your husband, but you don't. You don't really. In fact, you hate him. Deep down, you just hate your husband. You pretend to yourself that you like your husband, but you really like if somebody were to try and make that case for you what would you say?
[1:40:23] I want to engage in conversation.
[1:40:25] Get thee behind me, Satan. You're so far off. Right. That would be appalling. That would be somebody wanting to destroy your life.
[1:40:35] You're unhinged. Yeah.
[1:40:37] Like if somebody were to say to me, your wife doesn't really love you, you don't really love your wife, it'd be like, okay, you're just bizarre. Get out of my face, right? Yeah, exactly. And I would view that as malevolent. Okay. Okay, so please, please understand, when you say to your mother, you've done things wrong, that's like someone coming to you and saying to you, you really hate your husband, and your husband hates you.
[1:41:00] Yeah. Okay, no one, that's, I can see that.
[1:41:05] Is there any amount of words, is there any amount or combination of words that would have you believe that you and your husband hate each other?
[1:41:12] No.
[1:41:13] No, you love each other, you're thrilled to be married, you're each other's best friends, of course. Yeah. There's no amount of language, so this is as tough. As it would be to budge the self-righteousness of your parents. It's not going to happen.
[1:41:25] My mom always says, she always says, I've never been wrong. I'm so right. I'm right about everything. Oh, I never did anything wrong. I remember I was doing this mock interview for med school. And then this guy I know who is in med school was doing practice questions with me. And one of his questions was, tell me about a time you were mean to someone. one. And so I told my mom about the answer that I gave with this guy I was practicing with. And my mom said, Oh, um, Oh, that's a horrible answer. Me. I would just say, I've never been mean my whole life. And I said, I laughed and I was like, you've never been mean your whole life. And she's like, it's true. I've never been mean.
[1:42:06] And she might, she might be able to pass a lie detector test about that. That's the terrifying thing. She would genuinely, completely, deeply, and honestly, she might be able to pass a lie detector test about that. I mean, my mom could probably pass a lie detector test which said, it's the only reason your life went badly because you were poisoned by doctors for some reason. And she would say, I'm sure she would say, and she would probably be able to pass a lie detector test about that. Yep, absolutely. Okay. You can't change people who don't respect reason. You can't change people who don't respect principles. You can't change people who can't compare what they're doing to some higher standard. And she doesn't. She says, I've never been wrong. So she is her own standard. Whatever she does is the right. And whoever disagrees with her is absolutely wrong. In the same way that somebody would say to you, well, you don't really love your husband. Well, of course you do.
[1:43:20] When you lay it out so plainly like that, I mean, I don't mean to belittle what you're saying, but when you lay it out like that, it makes perfect sense. Right.
[1:43:28] And that's the empirical evidence that you have, right? Right, I'm a big empiricist, so if there was evidence to the contrary, we would accept that with great joy, right? But she says, I'm never wrong, okay? So then if there's any problems, and there will be, then it has to be the other person. It always has to be the other person, always and forever, ever, amen.
[1:43:54] So, you will not ever find an ally in this family. And listen, I'm not going to say we have the same family, and obviously, you know, we're different people, we're very different stages of life and so on, but I'll tell you this, my family of origin did not admit they did anything wrong, or if there was wrong, it was never anybody's fault. You know, for my mother, it was all the doctors who just treated her badly and poisoned her and so on, right? Injected her with various ailments. So, I've now, it's been, well, a tiny bit longer than you. For you, it's two years, and then a break for me is 20, 25 years or so. And, you know, you're in your early 20s, I'm in my late 50s. And I'll just tell you from this standpoint with regards to my family and my friends, no one changed a bit.
[1:44:54] Quarter century and it's not like people can't find my issues i mean i told them directly and they're right out here on the internet right so people could listen to the shows they could do searches for a mother or father or all these things right and so nobody's changed at all, not not not one friend has contacted me from the old days my family has not contacted me i mean except to say that my father died, which is a whole other story as to why they would tell me that, of course, because it's negative news and it's designed to make my life unpleasant. But nobody's changed.
[1:45:34] How did you eventually come to peace with everything?
[1:45:42] Well, that's a big question. Of course, that's a big... I don't want to give you... Obviously, I don't ever want to give anyone a glib answer. And so the stuff that pops into my head, I want to make sure is not just surface level stuff. But how did I? Well, I got to tell you, so some of the studying of the brain really helped for me. So people without a conscience have very different brains. They're fundamentally different from people with a conscience. People with the observing ego, people with, you know, there's like a third of people don't even have an inner dialogue. They don't ever argue with themselves. They don't have any observing differences of opinion, you know, like you sometimes.
[1:46:20] Really?
[1:46:20] Yeah. Oh, no, like a third of people, they don't have no inner dialogue. Nothing.
[1:46:25] Yeah, I speak French and I have inner dialogue with myself in French.
[1:46:29] In French, right, right. Just so I can practice. Right, right. Perfidious Albion, you're arguing how bad the British are in English and in French. So, no, so there's really sort of very fundamental differences in brain structures.
[1:46:43] And I can't imagine what it's like to not have an inner dialogue. I mean, it's almost inconceivable, isn't it? I mean, honestly, I'm debating with myself half the day. And I actually find it quite enjoyable, is this perspective, that perspective, like, you know, I've spent, I don't know how many hours thinking about, you know, the people who took all the vaccines and if they're having health problems, you know, how much are they responsible, how much, you know, all of this propaganda did to take away. Like, I think about these things, it's not like I'm arguing with myself in any foundational way, but I'm back and forth on perspectives a lot, and I find that interesting. Of course, I write novels with lots of different characters, so you can't do that if you don't have an inner, at least, dialogue. So, I can't imagine what it's like. Like, I can't imagine the void that's in people's minds and hearts if they don't have an inner, at least one other voice in there. I just can't conceive of it. But in the same way, they can't conceive of my mind or your mind.
[1:47:50] We're too different. Now, it's not necessarily a moral thing or an intelligence thing. It's just, I don't know. I don't exactly know how. Nobody really knows how to explain it. And you can do searches for this, like no inner dialogue, and you can look at the statistics and so on. So for me, it's like, okay, so when I do something wrong, it really bothers me. Like even if it's accidental. You know, like if I make a misstatement in one of my shows or something like that. And I say million when I meant billion or something like that. Like, it bothers me.
[1:48:26] Yeah, me too. I'm like that too.
[1:48:27] Yeah, it troubles me. And so for me, recognizing that some people, it only bothers them if they get caught and punished. And they can always avoid getting caught and punished, or certainly within families and parents, by just denying they did anything wrong and attacking the other person. Then there's no problem. The gaslighting well yeah but it's like i feel bad even if nobody else knows.
[1:48:58] Right i i you know i i mean upb came out of me feeling like ah there's still something not quite i don't have 100 proof of this ethics thing right so if i make a mistake or or i think there's something deficient it it it bothers me it's like uh it's like when you have a i don't know if you have been camping and you have like a mosquito in the tent it's like you can't really quite rest until you got that little thing and squished it or something or driven it out. So if I do something wrong, even if nobody else knows, it bothers me. And I get a little bit of unease and I just have to work to correct it. Like if I've said something that could be a little abrupt to someone, I need to say, geez, I'm sorry, I think that was a bit short and that was a bit rude. Like I just need to do that. It's how I end up enjoying my mind is to have a clean conscience And that means, you know, I first of all have to notice that I did something wrong. And that's an automatic process. And it always has been. And then I need to do something to make it better.
[1:50:00] And so for me, you know, that shopping cart test, you know, like, do you put the shopping cart back even if there's nobody around? Well, yeah, of course I do.
[1:50:10] And you know the couple of times in my life that i found something of value even when i'm broke, i'll try and return it to the person even though i could totally keep it and if it was just cash or whatever no i try to return it to the person and you know just try to have a good conscience this certainly doesn't mean that i'm perfect of course but in general it's not dependent on whether I can get away with it, right? And so.
[1:50:38] To have that conscience, to have that comparison of what I'm doing to some better standard, is foundational to my existence, and I can't undo it. Like, I can't choose to not have that. Right? If I've done something wrong, it bothers me, and I have to make correct. Even if it's just a fairly innocent error, it just bothers me. And that's an automatic process for me and there have been times where it's just been eye-rollingly annoying which is like, oh come on it's such a little thing, it's like no, no, come on deal with it, right, you know that kind of stuff, right.
[1:51:22] And so that's an automatic process for me and I can't imagine what it would be like to not have that process to me, it would be terrifying, it would be absolutely terrifying to not have that conscience, to not have that inner voice, to not have that Jiminy Cricket, to not have that sense that I'm doing something that's not quite right. To me, it would be as terrifying, like before GPSs, you'd be driving down a street and you'd be looking for a cross street. And as you went further and further along, you just get more and more uneasy, right? Because it's like, I think we should have been there by now, right? And that was sort of a common thing. Or if you're hiking, you know, it can happen, you get uneasy before the GPS stuff. And to not have that, to just dum-de-dum, I've been driving for three days now, I'm sure, like, that would be terrifying. Like, how on earth would you ever course correct? What a total nightmare.
[1:52:15] And so for me, to not have that, you know, like things that are true, like there's so many people in the world, they don't care whether things are true, they only care whether things are accepted. Or whether they'll be liked or disliked for saying something or believing something, they don't really care about the truth. Now, to me, it's like no matter how difficult the IQ data or whatever, like no matter how difficult it is, it's true. And so, you know, we can't deny it, and it's pretty important to deal with reality. And to me, it would be kind of incomprehensible when people say, but what are the consequences of believing X, Y, or Z? We should decide on whether we believe stuff based on the consequences. I'm like, what? That's not how we progress.
[1:53:05] I mean, there were so many people who said that, well, you know, if we reject, if we don't have slaves, we'll all starve to death and freeze to death because there won't be any food and clothing. There'll be no cotton, there'll be no vegetables, no fruits, no, right? And it's like, well, so if you take that view, then you can never get rid of slavery. But you say, no, slavery is wrong, and we have to get rid of it, and it's an unjust institution, and let the chips fall where they may, and the world, in fact, got immeasurably better as a result of that. That so that the truth is essential integrity is essential if you don't hold up to reasonable values you need to apologize and make restitution and have a course correction all these kinds of things right so i can't imagine life any other way i can vaguely picture it but i can't genuinely get what it would be like to live without a conscience or to live without.
[1:54:05] An inner voice, to just have silence in your head. I wouldn't want that in any way, shape or form. I think that would be a terrible life. Now, other people who are like, what, you're always arguing with yourself, or you're always talking with yourself, or there's all these voices in there, what a nightmare. Okay, I get that. I mean, because it's not the life they're used to. So for me, it's just like, they're just like really, really fundamentally different. And again, it's not some moral thing foundationally, but I do not expect them. I guess there is a moral aspect if it's to do with the conscience. I don't expect my mother to grow a conscience any more than I expect me to lose a conscience.
[1:54:49] Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's fair.
[1:54:52] So she's not going to change. And if she was able to change, she would have changed the first time she hit me. Or the second or the fifth, but not the 10,000th. That's not going to happen because there's way too many justifications. And every time you do something wrong, it gets easier to keep doing wrong and harder to turn around to do right. And your parents now have 30 years of bad parenting or more under their belt?
[1:55:23] Yeah, 25, yeah.
[1:55:25] Yeah, not going to change.
[1:55:27] Yeah.
[1:55:30] I mean can you imagine sorry it's the last thing I'll say and then I'll be quiet so can you imagine you have kids trusting beautiful pink lovely little kids, I mean can you imagine what it would be like to hit them every day or threaten them or shake them or put your fist through the walls and terrify them or scream at them or call them names worthless, trash, useless stupid, selfish can you imagine what that would be like, to do that day after day.
[1:55:59] I can't imagine doing it. But if you were to do it, I mean, I don't know how you could ever admit that it's wrong.
[1:56:07] But it's hard to even imagine. Like, if I look at my daughter and I think of, like, yelling at her or calling her names or, you know, she's not doing exactly what I want, so I'm just going to scream at her and terrify her. Like, it's absolutely incomprehensible to me. So the people who do it are incomprehensible to me.
[1:56:25] Yeah well i taught swimming lessons for like six or seven years all throughout high school and university and so i teach kids from like a few months old all the way to like 10 and just all of them are just so cute and young and playful and nice and i did even like the thought to yell at them never even crossed my mind right did you keep your voice.
[1:56:51] Because a friend of mine's daughter was a swimming teacher and she kind of lost half her voice from yelling at the not yelling because she had to be loud i'm just yelling at the kids but had to be loud.
[1:56:59] When when i was teaching swim team yes because i i competitively swam for a long time and so i channeled my inner swim coach and that required a lot got it so.
[1:57:10] They're just they're very very very different they're very foreign it's a very foreign mindset i mean all the bees are bees but there's a big difference between the worker bees and the guard bees and the foraging bees and the guard, the queen bees. They're just very different. They're all bees, of course. We're all people, but we're all very different. And you change not as the result of what anyone else says. You change as a result of your conscience.
[1:57:43] You don't change because of what your husband says or what you read on the internet or anything I've ever said. That's not what causes you to change. Because if words change people, you could change your parents or your siblings, but you can't. You change because the words ally with your conscience and your desire for truth and your desire for honesty and virtue and courage. Now, if people don't have a conscience, all that your words do is interfere with their base half-animal will to power. And if you stand between the lion and its prey, you have a bad day. So they don't change because of anything you say. And you certainly can't say anything about morality or virtue or truth or honesty or or an integrity, or a love, because that's all based on a conscience. That's all based on having a higher standard, which they don't have. Your mother is, and she's very clear, she's never been wrong, and she genuinely believes that, because whatever she wills is right. I mean, if you were to say to a lion who just, like imagine you could speak lion, and you said to a lion who just took down a tasty zebra and was half eating it, if you were to say to that lion, and, oh, man, you've done the wrong thing. You've taken down the wrong zebra. This is the wrong approach. This is the wrong thing. You should have had a salad. What would the lion say?
[1:59:12] Let me eat the zebra. Screw off.
[1:59:14] Yeah, I'm eating. What are you talking about? Wrong. Like, and this is the same. When you try to correct your mother, it's the same thing, man.
[1:59:24] Yeah. And this analogy that you're giving with the lion and the zebra, I mean, it's very, it's the same thing with my mom. She's like, she pulled the pasta grenade, like you like to say. I heard you say that before. I thought it was really funny. And she's really bad with self-control with food. And if you tell her that she shouldn't be eating something, she'll be like, oh, screw off, but with more colorful language.
[1:59:46] Or she.
[1:59:47] Likes to shop a lot and buys a lot of crap that fills up the house and if you say oh you don't actually need that same reaction.
[1:59:54] Right if you say to the library the lion who's really enjoying his meal oh you you're not doing the right thing you got the wrong zebra that's the wrong meal you're not enjoying yourself you should chase a different zebra it would just be noise to him like you're like what's the matter with you i'm enjoying my meal i got the zebra like that's That's right. I've never eaten the wrong zebra. That's what the lion would say. I've never, ever eaten the wrong zebra.
[2:00:18] Yeah, there's a reason why they're so powerful, the lion.
[2:00:21] Right. So, the lion says, I've never eaten the wrong zebra, and your mother says, I'm never wrong.
[2:00:29] Yeah.
[2:00:31] And that's where things are. And if you sort of, I don't know, I say if you accept that or whatever, but if you just sort of meditate on that, that you have a standard by which you can be corrected. Which is civilized to me. I do think it's more advanced. I obviously think it's better. But you have a standard by which you can be corrected, and your mother doesn't, and your father doesn't, and your siblings don't. They're just very, very different. And words are just a waste. They won't change anything. Now, maybe some people like that, if they don't learn through inner dialogue, then sometimes they'll learn through tough experience, which is why, as we talked about, that you would want your siblings to take your side, right? Because then you can apply negative pressure to your parents and maybe they'll change because of that or something like that, right? But they're not in that place. And I've never seen anyone get there. I personally have never seen anyone go from no conscience to conscience any more than I've seen someone go from conscience to no conscience.
[2:01:43] Now that you again, not to belittle what you're saying, you lay it out so plainly. I know there's a lot of processes and knowledge that goes behind it.
[2:01:53] Make it plain, yeah.
[2:01:54] It makes perfect sense but then, I feel like a lot of the time I try to overthink things and like you, you want them to be.
[2:02:10] You want them to be, you want them to be like you.
[2:02:13] Yeah. And even my siblings, they describe my siblings sometimes, or I could put characteristics that I have onto my siblings. And I just think.
[2:02:24] But if they were like you, so you want your siblings and your parents, and we want all the people who don't seem to have a conscience, we want them to be like us. But if they were like us, we wouldn't want them to be like us. So wanting someone to be like you, to have a conscience, to have moral sensitivity, to have the capacity for love, so you want them to be like you, but if they were like you or even had that capacity, it would have happened by now and you'd never be in a situation of wanting someone. To be like you, right? Like, you want your husband to marry you, or you want your boyfriend to marry you, so he marries you. But if, you know, 10 years in, you were still wanting him to marry you, it would be because he hadn't married you. And all evidence would be probably that he wouldn't, right? So wanting people to be like you, it's a tacit admission that they're not like you, and you can't make them be like you. You cannot make people like you. You cannot make them have a conscience. Again, you can look at the brain scans of people who have a conscience and people who don't they're fundamentally different creatures.
[2:03:33] After this conversation i'm gonna go to the gym or for a run or something and i'm.
[2:03:37] Gonna listen to an.
[2:03:38] Audiobook of audiobook on anatomy of the brain.
[2:03:41] Right so is that i mean i know we've talked for a long time is that is that a reasonable maybe framework to to think of these things.
[2:03:51] Definitely after all my conversations with you i always feel a sense of liberation you know.
[2:03:59] Good like.
[2:03:59] A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and the fact that i feel that way right now makes me think that the conversation got me exactly where i needed it good.
[2:04:08] And i'm listen i'm i'm hugely delighted that you got back in content content of course i'm not thrilled for the reason but i was actually just thinking the other day about how you were doing so it was actually quite fortuitous that uh you gave me the uh the update so i really do appreciate that and you know obviously give my very very best to your your husband and you know a big hug for yourself these are very very difficult issues and you are very young and utterly brilliant and good woman to be to be taking this on and what a what an incredible journey in one generation from you as a mother to be to your mother as a mother that was it's just fantastic what you're doing and you You will get a great community. And this is the only way to get a great community is to cross this desert and make sure you have good distance between you and the people who don't have a conscience because they will just, they're just wild animals in many ways and they can't be domesticated.
[2:05:02] Well, Stefan, this is great. Hopefully, you know, in two more years, I'll give you another update and hopefully I'll be pregnant.
[2:05:08] I would love to hear that. And if there's anything else I could do in the meantime, please let me know.
[2:05:12] Oh, this is wonderful. Wonderful. I'm so, so happy. And like always, feel free to share it on your platform and everything.
[2:05:18] I appreciate that.
[2:05:19] I always like listening back.
[2:05:20] I will let you know when it's up and I appreciate your time today. Have a great night.
[2:05:23] You as well. Thank you so much.
[2:05:25] Bye.
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