[0:00] Hello. Hey, hey, how's it going? Hey, Stefan, how are you?
I am all right, I'm all right. Of course, I'm obviously sorry to hear about what's going on with your family, but I'm sure we can do something useful about it.
Do you want to sort of give me the background or what's going on or how you're doing, how you're feeling, I guess the whole thing?
Yeah, absolutely. How much time do you have? I guess hour 45, hour 50.
Okay, yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I'm just a little, I guess I can describe a little starstruck.
It's just, I can't believe I'm speaking to you.
So, but anyways, I'll try to be as efficient as possible.
Yeah, whatever works for you. We've got time. Okay, fantastic.
So, yeah, I reached out to you yesterday, just right in the aftermath of what I would call I was really, really bad.
[1:03] I'm sorry. Bear with me. I'm trying to articulate this the best that I can.
But I snapped yesterday right in front of my two daughters. I have a little girl.
She's two years old. Oh, you can stay off names and places. But, yeah, you got a two and a one-year-old. I remember that. Yeah.
Okay. I have a two and a one-year-old. I beg your pardon. and um yeah i just i i lost it i i snapped and um my wife was having a moment where she needed me she was um working and it was just really stressful and you know she's you know she's swearing she's screaming and he's having a difficulty and i knew what i had to do at that moment i i needed to diffuse the situation as possible we have both children are in earshot They can see everything and hear everything.
So I put my wife aside and I tried holding her to hold her down.
And then I got abusive.
Sorry, you meant you tried holding your wife down. Is that right?
[2:06] Yes. Yes. I tried holding her down and I just lost control.
Truly lost control. I mean, I take full responsibility for what I did, but it freaked me out just how how I was able to go to a place that is just so dark.
And I, you know, apparently she tells me that I put her in a chokehold and I threw her down and I put my hands on her and just, and just, it was just horrible.
Just absolutely, just horrible.
And, you know, luckily the children didn't see it, but I know they could hear it.
They could hear her, their mother screaming. They could hear just the whole altercation and, um, and, you know, we've had these episodes in the past, um.
[2:55] And normally right after in the aftermath, I mean, it's just we get so I guess I just get so numb.
It's hard. It's hard to believe that I can get to that place.
[3:09] And, you know, she's obviously, you know, feels the same way.
But, you know, we've got we have we have kids to raise. We you know, we can we don't have all day to kind of process everything. So we kind of separated.
She she finished up her work after everything was cooled off.
She told me to leave, get out of the house, and I did.
Luckily, we have an area where I could have retreated in our house, like in our shed.
So I took some time there just to cool off and breathe it off.
And we continued on through our day to the best of our ability.
But, you know, the kids can sense that something's amiss and something's wrong.
They can feel that. But we carried on normally.
We slept in different rooms last night. We haven't really spoke much today.
She told me it's probably best if you leave the house today.
I want to just spend time with my girls because the weekends are where she really has the most opportunity to spend time with them. So I have been giving her her space.
She went out shopping with the girls, the little Christmas shopping.
I'm just kind of doing my thing. I'm cleaning the house.
I'm trying to get a grip over what was happening and and listening system of your old shows as much as I can so that's kind of what's been happening is I mean it's it's still so fresh right now so I I don't know what else I can add right now at this point.
[4:35] Right. Listen, I mean, I'm really sorry that it got to this phase.
I just, I mean, before we go on, and just as for my own sort of peace of mind, if you don't mind, like, I just need you to promise me that if you have the urge towards violence to your wife, you'll just get out of the house, you'll call a hotline, you'll just do something because, you know, that's something which can't happen.
Like, you know this, I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
But that's something that absolutely, completely, and totally can't happen.
So I'm happy to help, but I just really would beg for that promise from you that you just won't put your hands on your wife again.
Like, no matter what. Like, as if there was a cop standing there in the living room with handcuffs on. Like, I just need that from you, if that's all right.
[5:21] Yes, yes, yes. Of course. You promised that, right? You call someone, you'll just run out of the house, whatever you need to do to avoid this kind of situation, right?
Yes, and we've said that so many times in the past that I just need to just leave and take off.
Always some words will be exchanged where me taking off is me being weak, like, oh, you can't handle this, or you're going to run away.
Way it's just you know just some yeah i mean but i just you so you promise me that you will not do this like no matter what okay this okay i just need that because i mean i'm sure we can we can do some useful stuff but i just want to make sure that we have that established first okay, so what's your theory what's your theory as to why you have this rage or what's your idea behind it If you sort of had to explain it to God himself, like what would you say?
[6:24] Oh, man, I've spent so much time trying to break this down.
[6:32] I feel as my childhood, my parents did me a great disservice.
They just didn't really, I mean, I just don't think they cared enough.
[6:46] I had violent tendencies towards a younger brother, um, a younger brother that is still to this day, extremely troubled.
I mean, I think he's, he's in jail currently.
He's just, his life's just been an absolute wreck.
And so when I try to try to figure out where does this violence come from, this rage, and I, um, I try to pinpoint it back to when I was little with him growing up and me being an older brother, it just as pathetic as that is, you know, you, you try, I could take my frustrations out on him him and just and i and i and i contacted him maybe a couple years ago begging for his forgiveness because i know just how terrible and how wrong i was to to hit him to push him to use violence against him when we would get into our tiffs or disputes um those are the only people in my life that I've that I've and I've and I know I've attacked my father before, um so those are the only three people my my brother my wife and my father that I've ever used force against and and I I guess it just comes from I guess it's a power thing um.
[8:07] I don't know I if God himself well it's not a sorry it's not a power thing because if you really want to have quote power over people then you love them you don't threaten them right, you know if i love my wife and if my wife wants me to do something i'll do it she has quote power over me because of love not because of violence right so it's not a power thing you actually have more power over people and it's not power over like dominant power but you have more influence over people, If they love you, then if they're afraid of you, does that sort of make sense?
Yes, it does. And, of course, you also recognize that you're heading towards jail yourself, right?
I mean, I'm sure you know that. I just want to be clear that we're both on the same page as far as that goes.
Like you say, oh, my brother went to jail. Like, you're heading that way yourself, right?
[8:59] Yes, no, that's a great point. And I know my wife and I have discussed this.
I mean, I even said that I don't know how I get consequences for my actions because, you know, we found times where we would move on.
We would try to bury this under the rug. I take full responsibility for those lapses. And she says, you know, I was wrong, too.
I shouldn't. I'm sorry. You don't know how you get consequences for your actions?
Well, yeah. I mean. Oh, because your wife doesn't give you consequences.
Correct. Correct. Well, do you know how you get consequences for your actions?
No, I don't. You kill her.
[9:45] I mean, that's going to be a little tough to cover up, right?
Or you give her brain damage, or you choke her out.
And you have to call 911, and they find your fingerprints on her neck.
Heck, you want, I mean, that's how you get consequences.
And you go to jail forever.
Like this is the kind of stuff you're messing with when you unleash this demon of violence in your household.
You don't know where things could end up.
Or you reach for her, she stumbles backwards, falls down the stairs and dashes her brains out.
[10:31] You are rolling the dice every, I mean, outside of the morals of the situation, you're absolutely rolling the dice every single time you reach out with violence.
[10:43] That she's going to be injured or killed. Am I wrong?
No, no, you're not wrong. She's told me this and I've acknowledged it.
Okay, so when you say, I don't know how I'm going to get consequences, we don't want you to get those consequences.
Consequences because you have children and you shouldn't be harming the mother of your children, right?
Correct, yes. Okay. I just want to be clear. You will get consequences for your actions.
[11:17] I guess, you know, in these aftermaths where, thank God, you know, my wife doesn't get killed by my foolishness.
It's just when we...
No, no, it's not foolishness.
It's not foolishness. I mean, this is abuse, right? This is evildoing.
Yes, this is evil. You're absolutely correct. I mean, it's using violence against someone to get your way.
It's not self-defense. It's the initiation of the use of force.
And, like, you know all of this from—I just want to be—you know, we have to be clear about these things, I think, right?
No, no, you're right. I don't know why I've articulated it as foolishness.
I feel like a fool, but I do know that it's evil, and it can never happen again.
Well, and it's evil in particular because of the actions themselves, but it also has a radius of evil in that this is what your little helpless toddlers are seeing and hearing, or hearing in this case, right? Yes, yes.
[12:18] And I don't know, I don't know how to identify where it comes from.
I, I don't, I've tried as much as I can to look into issues.
I mean, I've tried therapy before. They've always, all they do is they, they offer drugs and I don't want to take any type of prescription drug.
Um, now it's a little bit challenging. I, um, my, I'm going to get on my wife's insurance plan starting in January when the benefits reopen.
So we'd have discussed me going into therapy, which I'm more than willing to do.
I know that's going to be a challenge because you're going to have to find hopefully a good one.
I just need to make a change. No, no, I get that.
Sorry to interrupt you, but I just wanted to get back to when you said, like I sort of asked, where do you think the origin is of this rage?
And you gave me examples. You said, oh, well, I've acted out against my brother.
I've acted out against my father, that's not the origin, right?
That's an example of what happens when you're violent, or you say, where does the start of this come from? And you say, well, here's when it was already happening.
So let's go back even further. Right, right.
Do you remember a time, not that you should or shouldn't, I'm just curious, right?
Do you remember a time before this level of anger?
[13:42] Where i didn't feel it or i didn't express anger like this either one's fine with me, uh yeah i mean i can remember a time or and you know when my parents were still together where i i didn't ever feel um rage that just consumed me to do something like this yeah absolutely um And how old were you when you remember getting this level of anger?
Oh, the earliest I can think is probably when my parents separated.
I must have been, I think, they separated when I was 10, I believe.
And I remember having really bad anger issues during my middle school years and so on and so forth.
Okay, so is it fair to say that before 10, I mean obviously you have your anger and your annoyance and frustration like all kids do, like all people do, but is it fair to say that before the age of 10 you didn't have this level of rage?
No, no, yeah, I don't remember being rageful at all during those early moments of my life, not at all, yeah.
And is it also fair to say that before the age of 10 you didn't abuse your younger brother?
[15:04] Yeah, that's a great question. No, we were peas in a pod. We were really close.
I mean, we're five years apart, which is a pretty considerable gap, in my opinion. But despite that, we were very close.
I think I started taking out violence on him again, yeah, probably post-divorce when I was a teenager.
Sorry, I'm just trying to get the gap. I thought your parents separated at 10, and then you're saying divorce at 13.
Did it take a couple of years for the divorce to go through, or did I miss something?
No, you didn't miss anything. I was saying that I divorced around 10, but I don't recall really being violent and abusive towards my brother until I was in my teens, maybe early, like maybe 13.
[15:48] Okay. Now, between 10 and 13, did you have – we'll just call it the rage, right?
So did you have the rage between 10 and 13 before you started acting out against your brother?
There oh i'm sure it did but i i can remember getting really mad playing video games i i think my dad would even catch me playing i gotta pick a sporting video game and if i was losing i would just you know mouth all sorts of horrible things and just get really angry and throw controllers you know embarrassing stuff like that and then i think um i think he kind of saw it the most and And it's embarrassing to admit this, but it's the truth.
But I would watch sporting events with my dad, and our favorite basketball team would come on, and they would lose, particularly in a high-stakes playoff game.
I mean, I would absolutely lose my mind. I would curse at the TV.
I would put holes in the wall.
I would go outside. I'm sorry, what age were you here?
Oh, yeah, 13. 13. I can remember as early as being 13, this kind of this just uncontrollable rage, especially towards sporting events in particular.
[17:08] And how was your parents' marriage before they divorced? A sort of zero to ten kind of thing.
[17:17] Oh, you know, for what they put in front of us, I mean, it felt like a good, you know, eight.
On the worst day, seven. It always seemed pretty good when they were together.
[17:31] And do you know what prompted or triggered the divorce?
Uh yeah i i they they say they left amicably on their own terms um you know my mom i i don't really know who initiated it i i really tried to get to the bottom of that but they're they're so kind of closed off on that i do think it was my mother who initiated it for whatever reason um i think my dad she she she claimed that my dad you know he traveled he worked too much he was prone to look at other girls or flirt with waitresses and that kind of gross stuff.
And my dad took custody of us because, you know, he had the job. My mom didn't work.
I'm sorry. What's your theory as to why your dad got custody of you? That's very unusual.
He asked for it. He was adamant about it from what he says. He says, you know, we're going to separate. I want the children.
And my mom didn't really fight him for that, I think. Okay, what the hell?
No, I got a, like I'm tripping over my own jawbone here. Your mom was like, yeah, you take those kids. It's fine with me.
[18:51] Yeah, I guess she felt that, you know, she didn't have any, she didn't have a career.
She didn't have a job. No, no, no, that's got nothing to do with it.
There's nothing to do with it i mean the idea that you give the kids to the guy with a job, means that he's gone 10 12 hours a day sometimes right you'd want to give the kids to the person who's staying home now of course you say well how do i get my money well there's alimony child support all that kind of stuff right so the idea that you would give you would give the kids to the The guy with the demanding job, but not to the woman staying home, to the mom, I don't follow.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. That's what that's what they know exactly what to tell me. We just haven't gotten there yet.
How close were you and your brother to your mother?
Oh, I mean, we adored her. I mean, we I mean, she was.
She was always a little moody. She always, you know, she.
I mean, she was creative with us.
I remember I would come home from school before my brother went to school, and they would joke around with me.
I mean, she was a lot of fun to be around.
[20:17] And how were you disciplined as a kid?
[20:22] Oh, really hardly disciplined. I don't think I was a kid that ever really acted out.
I know my mom would, if we were unruly in public or whatever, I know she would always threaten to say, hey, I'm going to take you into the bathroom and give you a spanking.
But I think those were just words.
I don't think I ever remember if she actually pulled the trigger on that.
[20:50] My discipline was really just, I guess, non-existent is the best way I could put it.
Well, hang on. So punishment and discipline are two different things, right?
[21:01] Right. I'm sorry. No, that's totally fine. Look, I'm asking all the toughest questions. You don't have to apologize to me for anything.
So in terms of punishment is you did something wrong, and I'm going to apply some negative whatever. Okay.
Experienced you spanking or timeouts or whatever or just a lecture or something and uh but discipline is sort of a little a little different right that sort of reasonable expectations of participative behavior you know like clean up after yourself and and uh tidy up and and do the dishes or whatever it is you know contribute to the household kind of stuff so are you saying so you didn't get punished really as a kid right not not you weren't hit You weren't putting timeouts. You weren't yelled at. You weren't called names.
So you weren't really punished as a kid. Is that right?
[21:48] Yeah. No, I'm really trying to think right now about my discipline as a child.
And I really can't recall a timeout or a big-time lecture or any type of, you know, my parents would all say, you're just a good kid.
I would hear that a lot. But I'm sure there was something there, but for the life of me, I can't pinpoint anything.
No, and the last thing I wanted you to do is make up something.
So, no, of course, right? We'll take that until something else comes along.
Now, what about guidance, morals, and how to interact with others?
You know, maybe how to share, how to socialize, and how to just get along among peers or others. How sort of guidance, some moral guidance, practical guidance, tips, and so on, how did that go?
[22:42] Yeah, same with the discipline stuff. I can't recall really any kind of guidance into those things.
I mean, obviously, it'd probably be by their example, how they interacted with others.
I think my dad was a little bit more sociable, more gregarious than my mom.
So I guess I'd emulate how they behaved in some degree. um i'm sure they they trusted the school system and just us being disciplined by uh, administrators in that kind of regard, I don't think they really provided much in terms of guidance.
Well, can you think of a time, like all kids get angry, all kids get frustrated, it's natural, it's kind of weird if they don't, right?
So in terms of like, how do you deal with temper?
How do you deal with kids who are mean? How do you deal with sharing?
How do you like, in terms of just the general guidance on how to interact with others?
Can you remember any? any, it could be a totally minor example, but just sort of any examples of how to behave.
[23:50] Gosh, like I said, I'm sure there's something that they've done, and I'd love to hear what they would say to this.
But I personally cannot recall any example of them kind of showing me the proper discourse socially.
If I had a temper tantrum, what did they do? Did they sit me down and say, hey, you need to take a deep breath. This is not how we behave.
This is amazing. I honestly can't recall anything like that.
Okay. So did your parents ever show, again, parents can get annoyed.
We're all human beings, right?
But did your parents show through through their behavior that they model how to deal with anger or upset or frustration and so on.
[24:41] No, no, no, I know. I can't recall anything like that.
Now, was that because they didn't get upset or they didn't show you how to deal with, or they didn't, you never saw them dealing with their own upset, right?
So, I mean, here's a sort of silly example, right? So you're at, you're at dinner with your family and, Your father's food comes and it's cold, right?
Or something. It's the wrong order or something like that. The cooks, the meat is overdone or something like that. Or just some minor annoyance that happens.
These things happen in life, right?
So, did your father just not get upset at these things?
Or you didn't see how he overcame any frustration or annoyance?
Oh, yeah. But that kind of example. Yeah, he had he had a temper for sure.
I mean, he would kind of mumble, you know, curse words and he'd get frustrated and he would yell.
[25:41] But, you know, I guess to his credit, the reason why I guess it doesn't stick well with me, because I'd always remember him always saying, hey, I'm sorry I lost it. That was that was stupid.
But I do remember him now that now that I'm now that my brain's trying to get there.
Yeah, there'd be times when, you know, between my parents, when when stuff was not easy, I do recall them having arguments for sure. Sure.
Do I recall them making up in front of us and showing us how two adults resolve issues together?
I don't, but I do recall them sitting with me and apologizing for them losing their tempers.
And do you remember them losing their tempers?
I'm not sure what that means exactly because it means a lot of different things to different people. Can you remember a time where you saw them losing their tempers in some particular instance?
Because general descriptions are somewhat helpful, but our memories are built from specific things, right? So can you remember a specific thing that happened?
[26:45] Yeah, there was one that kind of stands out. And I don't know how old I was, but I know they were still together.
So this must have been when I was still in elementary school.
[26:55] And I have no idea what they were arguing about, to be honest.
But I do remember my dad was trying to sit on his recliner and I guess relax and they were arguing about something and I don't know what it was for the life of me.
I just remember that it was just it was pretty intense because I do remember crying when I heard them going back and forth.
And I think my mom I I don't know what she did I don't know if it was I could be wrong here but it just feels like this is what happened I feel like she might have just splashed a little bit of water on him maybe as like a joke to cool off and I just remember him flying out of that recliner and just like looking at her like how dare you do that to me and I just remember really being being scared and my mom just grabbed me and just pulled me away and said hey it's okay you know adults fight adults fight and and that's really it and but as we're talking about this i'm kind i am kind of disturbed that i can't really recall much about their times together so let me make sure i understand so you're a kid you don't know what they're fighting about maybe your mom threw threw some water on your dad and said, cool off.
And then he like lunges out of the chair in significant anger, maybe rage.
[28:19] And your mom is like, no, it's okay. People fight. It's, it's, it's okay. Nothing, nothing unusual, nothing weird. Right.
[28:27] Right. I think she she immediately came to my aid because I saw it and I just I do remember being crying and being scared by it.
So I think her impulse was just to grab me maybe as protection.
Yeah, I don't. Oh, you mean like a human shield against your dad?
I mean, I know I'm phrasing it like they could be that way.
I I just I wish I could be so much more detailed for you. But it's so incredibly difficult for me to pinpoint these moments between my parents.
And it's probably not unrelated as to why you, because when we see our parents do something like this, it's pretty crucial how they handle it, right?
Because if they downplay it and say, you know, your father's lunging at me with rage, but that's just normal.
That's how couples interact. That's, you know, couples fight, right?
[29:28] So if that seeps down into your head it normalizes it, this is what couples do they lunge at each other at rage they maybe use kids as human shields and maybe it wasn't i don't know right but but what your mother is saying is this level of conflict is normal natural natural, and healthy in a marriage.
Couples fight.
[30:03] But of course, if they knew how to handle conflict, they wouldn't have got divorced.
Right. If it was normal and natural, hey man, that's just what couples do.
They lunge at each other. They grab kids for protection. Right?
That's just normal. I mean, yeah, we know what we're doing. This is natural. This is normal.
But they failed.
You know, it'd be kind of like if you and I are flying in a plane and one wing is really shaking, right?
And instead of saying, holy crap, I don't know what the hell is going on.
We've got to land this thing right away.
I keep flying and what do I say? I say, oh, this is kind of normal, you know, when it's windy.
This is normal. This happens. And then the fucking wing falls off, right?
Like, it's not normal. It's not healthy. It's not what couples do.
I've been married 21 years I've never even raised my voice at my wife let alone lunged at her in anger she's never splashed water on me and told me that's not normal, that's not healthy this is not what couples do that's screwed up.
[31:14] Which they proved by getting divorced forced, which is the equivalent of crashing the plane.
Oh, this is normal. The wing's supposed to shake like that, right?
Screaming passages falling out the windows and stuff, right?
So no, that's not normal.
That's not what couples do.
Certainly not what people who love each other do.
[31:48] No, you're absolutely right. It's just it's amazing to me how they made it seem like it was normal and okay.
Okay, so was it your mom who mostly said it was normal or both your parents?
Oh, I mean, I think they both kind of take pride in the fact that divorce was amicable and that they still were able to hang and be in each other's presence in the aftermath.
Math i mean they we would still do holidays together on occasion we would they would still see each other um and you know whether it was a sporting event there or something along those lines i mean um so they considered it a good thing that they parted amicably, right i mean i remember i even remember when i was 23 years old so 10 years ago and we were We're having Thanksgiving with them.
And I even, they asked, they went around the table and said, hey, what are you thankful for?
And I was even saying, you know, I'm thankful that my parents who divorced are still here and are, you know, on good speaking terms, you know, are not one of those couples that eat each other's guts and won't even be in the same room with each other.
So that's kind of how their relationship was. I mean, they even worked together at one point.
But that's totally messed up.
[33:09] Really? Oh, man. Well, I think, look, don't take my word as gospel.
Let me make the case. Maybe I'm wrong.
I don't want to, like, I'm just, from my perspective, because, you know, you hear this kind of, sorry, I didn't say bullshit.
You hear this kind of stuff from celebrity couples, you know, like the uncoupling of the Coldplay guy and Gwyneth Paltrow or whatever, right?
It's like, no, no, no, we're still best friends and we still love each other. We care for each other.
We've got kids together. It's like, then why the fuck are you divorcing?
[33:40] Why are you putting your kids through that? Why are you destroying half your finances? Why are you breaking up the family home?
Why are you screwing up your kids' stability?
Like, if you just can get along, and if you're still friends, and it's amicable, and we care about each other, then why the fuck are you divorcing?
I mean, at least my parents had the good grace to hate each other's guts.
I'm like, yeah, okay, I can get why you guys divorced. But it's like, no, no, no, we love each other. We're friends.
Everything's great. We can work together. Then why divorce?
That's i mean that's why i think it's kind of messed up.
[34:16] Yeah no i agree and i i'm sure i could ask my brother and my sister that we were probably wondering like the same like you just said like you guys can still be in each other's presence without with being being civil and and friendly so well that's how they explain this shit to kids, well you know your mother and i are separating but we still love each other we still care for each other and we're still going to have holidays together and, you know, maybe we'll work together in the future and we all get along. And it's like, then why?
Why? Because what you're communicating to your kids is, oh, you can have normal, natural conflicts as a couple.
Every couple has them. You just lunge at each other and use the kids as a human shield.
Like, you can have normal, normal kinds of levels of conflict.
And you can still love each other. You can still care about each other.
You can still get along well together.
But due to some mysterious X factor, you just have to separate so how the hell are you supposed to grow up able to pair bond able to trust someone, like your wife when mystery shit can just pull you apart, I mean to me it's like going to the doctor with a broken arm and the doctor says geez how'd you break your arm and you're like nothing I didn't do anything.
[35:38] And then he tests you, like, do you have bone degeneration or bone cancer?
It's like, nope, your bones are strong.
So I ask you again, how did you break? I didn't do anything, doc. I just, you know, I was just showering and my arm broke.
Like, no one would believe that, would they?
No. It's like if you come, if you bring your car limping back into the driveway and your car has a completely crumpled front fender, And then, of course, your wife says, my God, what happened? You say, nothing.
[36:11] It was the weirdest thing. It's the damnedest thing. I'm just driving along, and the whole front fender crumples in.
And then your wife's like, well, hang on. I can see car paint from another car.
And it's like, yeah, I mean, that spontaneously formed as well.
Like, my car just crumpled, and there's other car paint on it for no reason.
Nobody would believe that, right?
That would be ridiculous levels of lying. It would be like the kid with the chocolate face saying, I don't need any chocolate. I don't even know where it is.
The kid with candy wrappers in the vents of his room.
I don't know where they came from. It must have been left here by the workers who installed the vents. That kind of thing, right?
So that's what's kind of messed up is that, hey, we're having normal levels of fighting. We still love each other. We care for each other.
We're still going to hang out together. And it's like, then why are you getting divorced then?
That's not answered, right? And parents often literally think they're doing a good thing by saying to their kids, there aren't any particular problems. We're just divorcing.
And it's like, that's completely weird for kids. And it causes them to have massive trust issues, I think.
[37:28] Yeah.
I don't even remember exactly at the time what they did say to justify it.
[37:42] Now, how did things go with your mom after your dad took custody?
So he took custody of you, you were 10, your brother was five, you've got a sister in there somewhere, and your kid gives up custody of all of you?
[37:57] Um yeah i'm sorry um you would like to know what my mom was doing well i mean how did things go with your mom in the eight years you had between 10 and 18 before you became an adult i mean obviously i'm sorry i shouldn't say obviously i assume that you still saw her even though she didn't have custody but it wasn't like 50 50 but how did things go between you and your mom or your siblings and your mom over the last half of your childhood oh yeah um so she um she found a boyfriend um and she she lives pretty uh somewhat close by and you know on every other weekend we would go visit her with her boyfriend and just hang out and i'm sure it was just all met with just good times all around you know go to the video store in a movie go bowling or mini golf and just hang out with her for a weekend and then and you know go back to our father and then just do the school thing um and then eventually um we met another boyfriend or she had one boyfriend that she had um i i kind of remember it happening like right away i know that kind of it set off some weird feelings to me.
So I, wait, she had a boyfriend right after she separated from your dad.
[39:16] Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, that's why they separated, because she had a boyfriend.
Well, yeah, I mean, of course. I don't think she would admit that, of course. Who cares what she would admit? Facts are facts, right?
Or reasonable assumptions are reasonable, right?
Sure, absolutely, absolutely. And I think she even accused my dad of philandering on his business trips and whatnot.
Well, maybe he did, too. Maybe he did, too.
Right. Who knows? Probably. probably but then when i was 12 years old we that's when i met my my my stepfather um and they're still together um you know he you know he was he was pretty pretty reserved he kind of let us kind of take our time getting to get accompanied with him and and they and they're still together to this day so um and what was your experience of your mother's i think there were two boyfriends before your stepdad and what was your experience of your mother's boyfriends um.
[40:20] They were i mean they were they were nice they were they were one of them was a was a brazilian jiu-jitsu dude and he was a you know he had tattoos on his arm and you know he he would he would try to his credit though i mean he tried to teach me some some martial arts he was a very patient guy i remember us playing i remember i wanted to go play basketball when i was in middle middle school and he drilled me, helped try to coach me.
So he was, I remember he was, I thought he was a pretty nice guy overall.
Um, and then just to have the course, another relationship that just kind of got severed and then onto my, my stepfather.
So, um, I remember them all being nice. My stepfather's a nice man for the most part.
And, um, and my dad would try his hand in dating and whatnot too, but...
[41:13] So, yeah, I mean, we would we would just kind of get used to just trying to move on with our new lives with my mom and her stepfather and just her occasional visits.
I know it kind of I know speaking for my brother and my sister, I think we've all talked about how kind of pissed off we were at our mom because she's not like she was far away from us.
And as you said earlier with my dad and his job, he did on occasion had to travel a lot.
So we would be home alone a lot, especially in the summertime when school was out. You mean like starting from the age of 10 or 11 for you?
Is your sister older or younger?
Oh, she's three years older. Okay, so she would be like the token mom while your parents were older, while your dad was away?
Yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't even consider that. She'd be with her boyfriend.
She wasn't very... What, at 13? My brother and I.
I was 13 at the time, so she's probably 16. Oh, so sorry.
I thought, you know, but I'm so sorry because your parents split at 10, but then divorced at 13. Do I have that right?
Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm jumping all over the place in terms of these examples. No, that's fine.
That's fine. No, listen, we're trying to stitch together a whole life in like a half hour or so that we're going to get things wrong. I'm going to get things wrong.
So just, yeah, just be patient with me and just, you know, correct me where I go astray.
[42:33] Sure so yeah i have a brother who's five years younger i have a sister who's three years older and and as i was saying earlier so yeah we would there during the summertime when no school's out i mean it would just be the three of us kind of fending for our own when my father was away at work and i and i think all of us just kind of recall that hey you know my mom doesn't work, um you know why you know they're on such good terms like what's stopping her from coming over and now okay so sorry so your parents they did separate when you were 10 do i have that right, yeah they separated when i was around 10 okay so then you you lived with your father who would then travel so you were 10 your brother was 5 and your older sister was 13 when this began right right yeah and i don't think he was traveling right away when the divorce happened i i think I think he was pretty much stuck around from his, I mean, my memory's a little hazy here, but I just do remember by the time I was 13, 14, 15, I can really remember just the three of us just kind of.
Yeah, party of five, sorry, that's a younger reference. Now, can you picture this, that if for some reason you were separated from your two little ones, could you imagine going a week or two without seeing them if they were just down the road?
[43:59] Okay so I'm trying to understand the mom thing here like you guys are close by you're on your own you're too young to be on your own and she doesn't come by, No, not frequently, no. She does, she doesn't. I mean, she did every now and then, but not. No, no, but not.
So, I mean, the question is why? I mean, you said, and this is why I asked sort of earlier, what was it like with her earlier? And you were like, no, she was great.
We were close and, you know, she'd play with us and all of that.
So, how does it work that she's not working? She's got all the time in the world.
It's not like your father would object if she came by to check up on the kids, right? No, you wouldn't have all had a problem with that.
So what the hell was going on that your mom divorced you?
[44:58] I don't know. I know it's a pain point for all of us. I speak for my sister.
Okay, let's go with what you do know.
What does it mean to you that your mother abandoned you?
In a significant hour of need.
I mean, permanently, right? Because she can't ever go back to when you were 10 and fix it up, right?
So what does it mean that your mother abandoned you during a time of significant need when you need constant reassurance of parental love because of the divorce?
And she's just like, yeah, we'll see you every other weekend or whatever, and we'll watch a movie.
Like, what does it mean to you, or what do you think it means about you to yourself that this happened?
It oh yeah it just it just feels like a it just feels like a rejection, more than a feeling i mean it is it is a rejection right you're unimportant, you're you're uh disposable, Is that fair to say? Yeah, they'll be fine. Whatever. I don't need custody.
I'll see them every couple of weeks.
Okay, so what does that mean to you that your mother tossed you aside?
[46:21] I don't know how to even answer that.
Yeah. I mean, it's rageful. It hurts.
Okay, so what do you think, if you can't access the feelings, that's fine.
They probably come out when you're mad at your wife, but what do you think the average child would feel if a mother they thought was close just tossed them aside in this kind of way?
Oh, yeah, heartbroken and just destroyed. Just destroyed.
[46:59] Those are the only things i can sorry the the nerves the emotions kind of emotions emotions are good we need those emotions, all right how much money did your mother give up by not taking you guys on, because if your father's working and she takes on three kids and she's been the primary caregiver and she doesn't have a career he's got to pay her thousands of dollars a month i guess i'm no lawyer but I imagine it would be maybe more than equivalent of thousands of dollars a month.
Oh, yeah. And then, of course, when I told her about that, why didn't you take custody of us?
Well, you know, your father's an overall decent man. I didn't want to take all the money from him.
I just, you know, you know, those are the kind of things I'll get from her.
Your mother said your father's a decent man. I didn't want to take the money.
But she wouldn't be taking the money from him.
She would be using the money to take care of her children.
And I assume that you guys were in school. I mean, five, maybe six or whatever.
Right. so she'd take she'd get the money to take care of you guys she'd still have a lot of time during the day while you guys were in school right sure yeah so i'm just trying to figure this out, i'm just trying to figure this out why would she leave thousands of dollars a month on the table not even check up on her kids when she knows they're alone.
[48:26] And unprotected and unsupported, why wouldn't she even check in with you guys?
I'm really trying to puzzle that one out.
Well, that makes two of us, sir. I mean, I could go into what I know about her past, and I don't know.
I guess it really kind of hit me as we're speaking just how much I've kind of just made this, rationalized this, and accepted this as not being a big deal.
And in fact, it's just, it's evil.
Well, let me ask this.
Let me ask this.
I assume, I don't want to assume, I assume, tell me if I'm wrong, that you missed your mother.
Because you had a good relationship with her, and then she just vanished, right? Right.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So when kids miss someone, what do they say?
[49:30] I love you. I miss you. Please don't go. Well, I mean, I want to see mom.
Where's mom? Right. Right.
I mean, I remember when we had a bunch of friends over staying with us, and it was for quite a while.
We don't have to sort of get into details, but I remember after maybe two or three days, my daughter was like, you and I are going out because we're just not spending enough time together, so that's what we're doing.
And I'm like, sounds great. Sorry about that. I should have been aware of that, right?
So you would have said, I want to see mom. Where's mom?
You'd have cried out for your mom, right? Right. I mean, you would I assume you would have done all of that because you missed your mom.
You want to spend time with your mom. Right.
I mean, you had your mom's phone number. You're 10 years old.
You know how to use a phone. Right.
So you to call your mom or you said, mom, come over or mom, I miss you or mom.
Let's spend time together or.
Where are you? I miss like wouldn't I mean, do you remember anything like that?
[50:29] No, I mean, that's a great point. I don't recall me ever taking the initiative on myself to give her a call and be like, come over here. We want to be with you, and we just always yielded to her.
Okay, so I'm not saying you should have. I don't want you to take anything on yourself.
Like, gee, I can't believe I didn't do that. The question is, why didn't you do that?
You had a good relationship with your mom. Your dad was gone a lot traveling, and your sister's out with her boyfriend or whatever, right?
And even earlier than that, when you're sort of 10 or 11 or 12 years old.
Why didn't you call up your mom and say, Mom, I miss you. Come on over.
However, why didn't you, did you think to do that and didn't do it, or didn't even think to do it?
I just didn't even think to do it, I believe. Okay, so why didn't you even think to do it?
I know it's tough to answer a negative, but why didn't you think to do it?
I mean, I suppose I just felt that I wasn't worth the time, the trouble.
War right because what would she what would she say what would she say if you begged for that.
[51:41] Oh, I mean, maybe on a good day, yeah, honey, I'll be right there.
Or just, oh, no, you're fine.
Hey, it's okay. Turn on the TV. I don't know.
Well, she might have lied to you. I mean, it would be tough to lie to you because she can't say, I'm too busy, right?
Because she's unemployed, right? Although maybe after she left your dad, she got a job?
No, I think she was just as cruel as I could sound. No, I think the first boyfriend, yeah, I think it was just a means to an end. Oh, she just milked him for money?
Yeah, it seems like that way for sure.
And then, of course... So hang on, hang on, hang on. So she... Oh my God.
She won't take money from your father to take care of her children, but she'll take money from Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy's wallet, as long as there are no children involved.
So she's fine taking money from men, just not from your dad to take care of her children.
Holy shit, brother. Holy shitballs. Yeah.
Yeah.
[52:54] Now, a woman who has sex with a man primarily to get his money, hmm, hmm, and I assume she's been hop, skipping, and jumping from man to man, from wallet to wallet, and has not had a job, right?
That seems to be the ML, yeah. Yeah, she was married.
She's from the UK and she traveled here very young, probably right after maybe she was 18 or 17, she says. And she met her first husband.
I think that lasted three years. And then, of course, met my father and, of course, had all three of us.
And then so, yeah, I mean, the only job skill she has is, you know, she she waited tables.
Symbols um she did go to beauty school to become a hairdresser at one point i remember but she graduated but then of course never got a job actually cutting hair so i was like well what was okay so she's never had a job she's lived off men yeah for the most part yeah i'm sorry what's not for the most part like maybe before she was 18 or something yeah yeah i'm you're right Yeah, she lives off men.
Well, she lives off men, but doesn't take care of the kids. I mean, certainly after you were 10, right? I mean, really.
[54:15] Okay. So she chose Brazilian guy over her kids.
[54:28] Yeah. Yeah, and I think I even, at one point I remember telling her, but she just said she just had to get away from my father. She just, I couldn't be in there anymore.
I mean, there's no... Wait, wait, wait, what do you mean she couldn't be in there anymore?
I thought they were friends and got along and everything was pretty much okay and this is couples and...
[54:47] Sure. I mean, a lot of mixed messaging there. I mean, she's vilified my father in every way imaginable, but yes, stays amicable with him.
Hang on, hang on. Sorry to interrupt. I haven't heard that she vilifies him because all I heard was like, he's a good guy. I didn't want to take his money.
Sure uh yes yes i i i guess i haven't painted the big 3d picture of course that she will praise him for you know being a good father and provider but that is very quick to also point out all of his shortcomings and we've and we've heard them all oh like his flirting with waitresses or other things yeah yeah yeah i think that was probably the biggest one that i remember is just how how, you know, we'd be out and about in public.
And I do remember this as a kid. And even as a kid, I remember just how repulsive it was, where if an attractive woman would walk by, like he would shamelessly turn his head and look and not even try to be coy about it.
I'm sorry, I assume that your mother, this is sort of the cliche of women who take beauty school training.
I assume that your mother was kind of a looker when she was younger, she was pretty oh yeah and she she takes great pride in her look she was yeah she's i still think she's in her 60s now she still looks good for her age she's okay so she's i mean when she was younger i know it's kind of a weird thing to rate your mom just in terms of prettiness uh where would you rate her on the one to ten scale when she was in her prime.
[56:17] I'm like i'm going to look at picture you is it okay if i bring up a picture reference yeah Oh, yeah, totally fine.
Oh, so, I mean, yeah, she's probably seven, eight. Seven, eight. And your father?
Attractive-wise, I'd six. Right.
Okay, so she attracted your father based on her looks, and then she's upset that your father looks at pretty women.
Yeah. Okay, honey.
[56:52] So, but I agree that a man, I get we're all men, we can admire an attractive woman, but how he was about doing it very openly is, I felt, was pretty gross. gross.
No, no, no, I get that. And that is certainly rude and bad and so on.
But for a woman to complain when a man is giving her huge amounts of money because she's pretty, rather than necessarily because of the qualities of a character, for them to say, well, he's overly concerned with looks when the only reason he's married her and is giving her all this money is because of her looks.
It just seems a bit precious. That's all.
No, and yet that's a great observation that I've never really thought about.
So, did she ever get closer to you guys in your teenage years?
[57:43] Hmm.
[57:46] No. I just think that all the times that we did hang out with each other, it was always just to make sure it was fun.
You know, like, you know, we don't have time for, you know, because the last thing I guess she'd want is if we're spending time with her.
On the rare occasion that we do, that we're going to, you know, muddy it up with heavy talks and that kind of stuff.
I just remember it was the same at Moe. I mean, we would go to the video rental store, rent a movie, hang out.
She would cut my hair, you know, clean me up, that kind of stuff, and just kind of try to make it light.
So she was like some babysitter rather than a parent who actually tried to guide you to living a good life?
Oh, yeah. Like I said, I don't recall any type of moral lessons or mistakes.
Hey, how are you doing with school?
I mean, I was always a decent school kid, so I'm sure she never felt to even bring that up.
I mean, I hear it all the time from her. You were such a good kid.
I don't, you know, you were such a wonderful boy, you know, like that kind of stuff.
Well, of course, if you were so good and wonderful, why didn't she want to spend time with you? It doesn't make any sense.
It's my favorite album. When did you last play it? Oh, I don't play it.
What? Okay. All right.
[59:14] So when's the first time that you remember the black rage coming on as a kid? Yeah.
Oh 13 yeah like i said earlier i think it really started to stem right when i was 13.
Maybe maybe it coincided with puberty or those kind of things um at that time um because yeah some time or some good chunk of time went back went by after their divorce and for the life of me i don't really remember much about getting enraged in fact i don't really remember much of what happened been immediately post-divorce, which is odd.
I just remember her boyfriend coming into the fray pretty early on, meeting him.
And then by 13, I can just recall just really, really, yeah.
Okay. Do you know why you can't remember this time where your parents separated?
I mean, I think I know why. I don't know why for sure, but I would have a guess.
[1:00:15] Well to me it's called depersonalization so you're out of control you don't want your parents to split up you don't want there to be a divorce you don't want there to be a separation and you don't want your mom to abandon you but you can't do anything about it because nobody's asking you and your opinions and your will and your preferences and your tears and your begging mean nothing to anyone so you might as well just kind of fade out you might as well just kind of cease to be in a way because nothing you do is going to change a damn thing.
[1:00:53] I even came across that as a diagnosis of some of my issues depersonalization, derealization disorder i don't know who i'm speaking to about it but i do remember that coming up well and of course i just mean that obviously in a purely amateur fashion but But, yeah, I mean, if you can't will anything, why remember anything?
You can't change anything.
I mean, memory is for learning lessons and changing your behavior.
But if nothing you do matters, why would you bother remembering anything?
[1:01:31] Well, absolutely. I mean, we remember that fire hurts, so we don't put our hand in fire again, right?
But if it's just going to randomly happen anyway, what's the point of remembering it? It's just going to hurt you, but you can't change anything.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Just as we're speaking right now, for the life of me, I'm trying to recall anything in that aftermath of how that happened.
And it seems all blank to me.
[1:02:07] Right. Which, I mean, to me, very tragically, and I'm very sorry about all of that, but it does make a kind of sense.
Yeah, no, it certainly does. I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I think it's worth sharing. So my mother's biracial.
She's half white, half black, West Indies.
And, of course, I'm a little, I'm mixed race, of course, as well.
And she um would relax her hair to straighten it to make it look more white of course or make it more presentable and i do remember as i grew up my hair started to you know look more african american and i do remember she immediately started to relax and straighten my hair to make it look more fair and more white because my complexion's white but my hair's a little bit more on the black side and i just remember um that was probably our biggest bonding was when she would come over and she would she would cut my cut and relax or straighten my hair, so i i don't know if the rage at 13 has something to do with kind of the identity crisis that that she kind of put me through.
[1:03:34] And what do you mean by the identity crisis? Sorry if I'm not following.
No, I don't even know why. This just came up to me.
Oh, no, I'm sure you're right, and I'm sure it's important.
I'm sure you're right, and I'm sure it's important, but I just want to make sure I follow what you mean by identity crisis.
So I'm going to jump a little bit ahead, not too far. But as I was in high school and I started to to to play basketball, again, my mom made a habit of cutting and relaxing my hair, because if she didn't, if it was to be natural, it did. It was coarse.
It's rough. It looks like it's like an African-American, like a black, black hair. You get Capernick hair.
[1:04:21] Yeah. And she kind of made it, she put this impression on me that it's not desirable.
It's not attractive, particularly because your skin is so fair.
You know, you look white, but your hair is kind of black.
So what I'm going to do is, you know, I'm going to relax it.
So you look fully white, if that makes sense.
I assume your father's white, right? So you're a quarter black. Is that right?
Yes, sir. Okay. And your girlfriend, sorry, you're not married, is that right?
Oh, I'm married, yes. You are married, sorry. And your wife is white, is that right? Yeah. Okay, got it, got it. All right.
[1:05:01] Okay, so there was something like she wanted to cover up the nappy hair and all of that kind of stuff?
Yeah, exactly. Which I guess would make you feel, like, ashamed of your black heritage, is that right?
Oh yeah yeah i think there was a lot of shame to it because i think she was kind of ashamed of it you know i think she i mean i think she liked the darker complexion of it because it made her kind of she said she'd always look like halle berry or something and she got you know she got off on those kind of compliments but of course her hair and it's i know it's a common trope for black people to be really kind of obsessive with their hair and make it look you know straight and fair and all that stuff.
And she definitely pushed that upon me. Now, um, was it by, was it by my request or was it through her request?
I don't know. I, I, I just know that that was something that, um, was kind of common.
That was a kind of a staple in our relationship, particularly when I would see her. Cause you know, the relaxers don't last forever.
So when she did come see me or when When I did come see her on the weekend, one of the first things we would do right away was, you know, cut my hair and get it under control, so to speak.
[1:06:19] Right. Okay. Got it. And did your hair, did it work? I mean, did it look like Caucasian hair or?
I mean, I, I certainly, I mean, I, yeah, I, I felt that it did.
When I look back at photos, I'm just kind of like, what the hell?
This doesn't look natural and good at all.
And it's definitely, it's been a source of, um, uh, real insecurity in my life.
And finally, luckily I've just gotten over it. I just keep it short and I, I manage it just fine.
But yeah, for a long time time of my life the insecurity of how my hair looked was a was a was a real big issue with me and it's particularly if somebody touched it or messed it out and called it out i would i yeah it could definitely trigger the rage right okay okay okay so sorry go ahead no that that i mean i think that is important that is helpful now do you know much about you said to west indies is Is that where she's from, or that's where her heritage is?
That's where her grandfather, or sorry, my grandfather's father.
And do you know much about the sort of family structure in the West Indies?
Is there a certain amount of child abandonment, or is there children raised by grandparents?
In the culture, is there a very strong bond between mothers and children or fathers and children, or is it less strong? I'm just curious if there may be some cultural thing behind her kind of ditching you and your siblings.
[1:07:46] Oh, man, that's a great question. No, I've never really looked into the culture of the West Indies.
Her father, my grandfather, West Indies, but then he lived in the UK.
[1:08:00] And they married, her mother and her father married very, very early.
And I just think they were met with a lot of backlash and put back on that union.
My mother claims that in that time in the UK, it was racially charged.
She would be called, you know, the N-word and all sorts of stuff like that.
And and then, of course, their parents ultimately did end up splitting apart.
And her mother did remarry to a white guy and and are still married to this day.
So it's very, very similar to my mom's path of marrying, having kids, three kids with a man and then leaving the man and then finding another relationship that has now been able to stand the test of time. So it's very similar in there.
Well, but without the precious children, right? Right. Yeah.
[1:08:58] I mean, that's not unimportant, right?
[1:09:03] I mean, part of what may be happening with you and your wife could just be in part just sleep deprivation from having two kids under three, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, I know both my wife and I are very devastated and made some pretty harsh realizations that not only my family, but also her family are just not really there for us.
We predominantly have raised these children on our own.
We really don't get help.
[1:09:41] Right. Okay.
Okay. I'm just having a look here, and this is probably not going to be particularly helpful.
I'm just looking up West Indies and paternal abandonment, just to see if that is kind of a...
Sorry, go ahead. ahead no i i'm curious myself i've never even thought to to research that um because yeah it is it is it is unsettling and it is really bizarre to to try to rationalize and make sense of my mom's decisions yeah i mean but you know family structures and and culture can be quite i mean obviously varies quite a lot across uh the globe and uh i guess that's sort of my my question let Let me just see here.
I don't know if I'm going to be able to find anything useful.
Probably not. Probably not.
But it might be...
[1:10:36] It might be worth looking into and seeing what family structures are like in the West Indies.
[1:10:46] Because it may not be, it just may not be as personal as you think, if that makes sense.
[1:10:52] Yeah, I try not to take it personal. I really don't.
But I mean, I have confronted my mother on several occasions about her failures raising us.
And she takes it she'll she'll take it and she'll of course admit that she was wrong but i do know that she will always harp back to just how cruel and ambitious her parents and particularly her mother was to her as of course that the domino's excuse right okay let me just see here uh african caribbean families so 80 to 90 percent of families in the caribbean from african background, uh let's see here um so the african caribbean family has unique mating and childbearing patterns some of these patterns include absent fathers grandmother dominated households, frequently terminated terminated common law unions and child shifting where children are sent to live with relatives because the parents have migrated or have begun a union with another lover or another spouse so child shifting right that that would be your situation in a way right in so far as the mom just kind of boogied out on some of her obligations right.
[1:12:21] Interesting yeah so yeah you might want to look up child shifting and so on just because if it's a cultural thing or it's kind of what she was used to or if it's what she saw then or what her father saw, then it might be something that is less personal to you.
Sure. And she doesn't have an answer for it.
When I confronted her about why you weren't there, she just has no idea, she says.
Well, who knows whether she has an idea or not, right? I mean, I don't, you know, somebody's willing to abandon their own kids.
I mean, I know not completely, but if somebody's willing to largely abandon their own kids, I would assume that they're not going to be honest about anything else, right? Right.
[1:13:10] Yeah. Yeah, of course. And she she does a good facade of trying to sound endearing and and and taking accountability.
But there's still a lot there that I feel that I just won't get from her.
So I do not I try not to take it personally, but at the same time, it's it's really hard not to.
Oh, yes. I mean, that that certainly is a challenge, right? And it certainly is a challenge.
This kind of stuff okay so i've got some fairly good information about your childhood and i'm sorry we're gonna have to skip over just in the interest of time some of your teenage years, but if you can tell me uh how long have you been together with your wife i mean including dating, sure yeah we met in 2010 um and we got married in 2017 oh wow okay so you've been together for for, I mean, 13 years, right?
It's been a while. And that's a constant relationship? It wasn't like make-up, break-up stuff?
Early on, yeah. We were both in college when we met, so there was a lot of make-up, break-up kind of things.
But then we really committed to each other in 2014, and we haven't looked back since. Okay.
And what would you say you love about each other, or what is it that drew you together and keeps you together in terms of the virtues and values that you love about each other?
[1:14:40] Oh, you know, we're just competence, you know, like, you know, she, she can take on life, you know, she's, she works hard.
She, she has a, you know, she, she's made, she makes a good life for us and for our girls.
Um she um has a good heart she you know she's got those wonderful maternal instincts of you know, cleanliness cooking uh she has a great heart almost too much you know where she's one of those people pleasing types and she's always trying to look for you know improvement and i i think early on when i saw her just you know her intelligence and just someone who um I think what really attracted me from her was understanding her background and realizing that she went through a lot and is still pressing on.
And I think I found a lot of similarities in that with my life.
So I think that's what really drawed me to her.
[1:15:42] Okay. And when did violence first begin to emerge in your relationship?
Oh, shameful as it is, why we were dating for sure. I imagine.
I'm trying to think the first time.
[1:16:08] Oh yeah. Probably when, when we were first starting to date, I, I, I can recall an episode of, of, of me being aggressive with her. And what happened?
I see. I, I, I don't know. I.
Are you pulling a, your mom on me now? Wait, now we're getting foggy.
It's not, wasn't that long ago.
Uh, no, no, you're absolutely right. I'm, I, I, I'm trying to be as detailed as I can.
I just I don't recall the details. I just know that we probably argued over something probably trivial.
[1:16:49] And. We both kind of get into these moments where, you know, none of us are going to budge in our viewpoint.
And, you know, and I like I said, I probably used force to to to get my way.
And what does that mean? I probably used force to get my way.
I mean, did you push her? Did you hit her? Did you, like, what does that mean?
Yeah, I probably pushed her or hit her. Like, I'm sorry, I just, you have a memory of something and then you say probably.
Oh, yeah, no. Like, you did or you didn't? Like, if you have a memory of something, you might not remember when it happened, but it's like, well, I probably did something.
Like I said, when were you, when did violence come into your relationship?
You said, oh, while we were dating. I probably, and it's like, I don't know what probably means.
If it's not something you remember, I certainly wouldn't want to have it talked about like it was real.
Right, right. And I will refrain from using probably. It's just, it's, it's a bit of a weasel word, you know, with all due respect, you know, I know you don't feel good about it, but it's just one of these, like, where is it over there?
Sort of. And it's like, no, no, where is it? Right. So, okay.
All right. So, so it was early on, it was early on that she experienced some level of physical aggression from, from you, right?
Okay. Now, why do you think she kept going in those circumstances?
[1:18:16] Uh my ability i'm i'm sure she weighed the pros and cons and and and hopefully saw more pros than cons spite and well but the con of violence is a pretty big con right yeah i know it's yeah it's it's horrible it's terrible and i i think and i know she's she said this aloud she's Her mother was a victim of domestic violence with her father.
Also, your violence is a symptom of her child abuse.
If she hadn't been conditioned to that, she wouldn't accept the violence from you, right? Oh, yeah.
So you're, in this way, sorry to interrupt, in this way, you're actually a manifestation of her prior abuse.
[1:19:08] Yeah now you knew when did you find out over the course of your relationship when did you find out that she had seen male and female violence growing up, on while we were still dating sure okay so for almost 13 years you've known, that she's very vulnerable to violence right yes, So, you know, when someone tells you something that they're vulnerable to, and then you push that wound, I mean, that's not good, right?
Like, you know that she's peculiarly vulnerable to physical violence from males, and then you do that.
[1:19:56] Yeah, it's disgusting. Well, I'm not trying to get you to self-attack here.
Like, I'm just trying to figure out the mechanics of it, right?
Like, if I say, oh, man, you know, my arm's in a sling, right?
And I say, oh, yeah, my arm's killing me. I cracked my forearm or something like that, and then you give me a good old whack in the broken arm or the cracked arm, right?
That's pretty bad, right? Because I've told you where it hurts, and then you hit me where it hurts, right? Yes.
So how often over the course of the years, how often does this violence emerge as far as you recall?
Oh probably five times a year and is that constant or is it more now or uh i i would say it's a pretty constant, okay so like once every two months give or take right once every seven weeks, yeah i think that's that's that's a fair way to put it yes okay Okay.
And what's the worst injury that she's received?
[1:21:09] I recall tossing her on the ground at one point, and I know she hurt her back.
And how long ago was that?
No, that was this year. As a matter of fact, that was probably in May, I believe.
So is it right or wrong? I mean, it could just be random. Is it right or wrong to say that the violence may be getting worse?
[1:21:43] Yeah, I think it's shown as getting worse, yes. Okay.
And do you have any theories as to why it might be getting worse at the moment, uh at the moment i you know i know we've been going through a tough year with raising the girls and um we've been both going through a lot of um issues i know she's been trying to confront her mother about some you know some accountability that you know the the problems the pain that she put her through i i recently just severed ties with my father back in march your father, yeah but but not your mother well yeah not my mother because i'm a little confused i i i mean your father who took care of you versus your mother who abandoned you you cut ties with your father who stayed but your mother you didn't with your mother who left yes that's correct, I'm not sure I follow that because we really haven't talked about anything negative that your father has done other than leer at waitresses and so on.
And again, I know sort of, I mean, if you can just step me through that, so make sure I understand what for you was the cause of separating from your father.
[1:23:03] Well, fast version. So, I mean, I've confronted them both about my childhood.
And where this really stems from is my younger brother, because he's in a terrible place.
He's currently in jail right now, and I just think his life has just passed the rubric on of recovery, and I hope I'm wrong.
And I feel that my father's guidance, his lack of discipline, his way of handling that was just, to me, just really, really terrible.
I'm sorry, his way of handling, I'm not sure what you mean when you say his way of handling that. What does that refer to?
Just his parenting overall um i guess i i know he he was there with us because he he took us in when my mother left but how he parented us was just um, it was done it was done bad it was done really poorly and um, He didn't, like I said, we were the non-discipline. I'm sorry, what was poor about your father's parents?
I'm not disagreeing with you, of course. I just want to make sure I know what poorly means to you.
Well, I'm just, I'm trying to, trying to, trying to just get to the third line without trying to get into all the details of it.
But he, again, he remarried again.
[1:24:29] And that relationship fell apart completely. I don't think it was a relationship that was based on anything closely resembling love.
It was just, I think it was a midlife crisis kind of thing. And it really put us in the back burner once again.
I think my brother took the heavy hit of that and still being, you know, really young at the time.
So having not only having to see his parents separate, but then also have to see his father remarried and then see that relationship deteriorate.
And he's just always been, he has a real transactional relationship.
Relationship and he he doesn't he lives in he lives now um and you know i'm sorry if i could just yeah just remind you to stay off the places that would be that would be great no worries no problem i'm sorry that's fine so i'm sorry i'm just trying to sort of figure this out so, your mother basically abandons your brother when he's five you start assaulting him when he's eight but the problem is your mother's your father's girlfriend i'm not quite i mean sorry if i'm I'm missing something here, but it would seem to me that the violence from you to him when you were 13 and he was 8 that went on, I assume, for years, and the maternal abandonment where there's no more instruction and there's just, you know, movie nights every couple of weeks.
Wouldn't that be a little bit more relevant to what happened with your brother than the woman that your father dated after the divorce?
[1:25:57] Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm just trying to paint some sort of way of how my father, because you asked why I decided to cut him off, and I just think it's...
[1:26:12] The choices he made the parental style of how you know because i you know if you're going to take on the kids um and want custody of them i mean obviously i mean that's a noble thing but it also requires you to really you know you know step things up a notch and and he just didn't you know he um i i would i would i would characterize my father as is pretty selfish um one a very transactional relationship, like would, you know, would give you money and expect loyalty from that.
When my brother was at one point homeless and, you know, dealing with drugs and having truancy issues with school and whatnot, my father just kind of just didn't know what to do in those situations and just kind of let it run its course.
I think he's even told me that, hey, He reminded me so much of myself growing up that I just thought he would self-correct like I did, and he didn't.
[1:27:16] And is he now in jail? You don't have to give me any details, of course, but is he now in jail for quite a long time?
Oh, yeah, yeah. He's made multiple offenses, and it's just – it's only – he's – yes, sir, it's going to be for a long time.
Okay. I'm obviously very, very sorry to hear that.
Okay, so do you view your mother as a better parent than your father?
[1:27:41] No, I think my father's a better parent. So that's why I'm sort of trying to understand why you've cut ties with your father, but not your mother.
Right. But as I've gotten older, maybe I'm approaching this poorly, so I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.
[1:27:56] But I've tried to separate my childhood now to now that I'm an adult.
And I feel like, you know, as our relationships, as we've changed, when I've confronted my mother about the past, she listens and she accepts her hand and she apologizes and she will hear me out and she will listen.
And when I've done the same with my father, he's just been, um, denies it.
He, he doesn't want to take any type of responsibility.
He doesn't want to, you know, he says, I just did the best I could. Um, that kind of stuff.
I'm sorry. So, uh, because the last I'd heard of your mother, she really wasn't accepting much responsibility unless of course I've misremembered.
So what is it when you say I've had these issues, like she hasn't even told you why she abandoned you. So I'm trying to figure out what she's apologizing for or what understanding she's giving you about your childhood.
[1:28:54] I don't. Yeah, that's a fair point. No, she hasn't really given me in terms of why she did the thing she did.
She's just validated my feelings that I told her that. No, but she knows in the absence of why you'll continue to blame yourself, right?
[1:29:12] I'm sorry, could you repeat that again? So she knows if she doesn't tell you why she half abandoned her kids, if she doesn't tell you that, if she doesn't tell you the reasons why, you will, to some degree, continue to blame yourself.
[1:29:30] So she's having you carry the burden rather than being honest about why she did what she did so she's continuing to sacrifice your interest for the sake of her own selfish preferences as far as i can see because if she tells you if she were to say to you listen um, this brazilian guy was really pretty and sexy and and i just you know i didn't really want to i was done with kids and uh you know i just didn't really want to spend time with you guys and and And I needed his money.
And like, then you'd be like, okay, so it wasn't anything to do with me.
It could have been any kid.
Like, it wasn't. And the reason it wasn't anything to do with you is she didn't take any of the kids. So it could have been any kid, right?
Like when my mom beat me up, it wasn't me. She's just, any kid would have done that to her. Or she would have done that to any kid.
So by not telling you the why, she's continuing to have you carry the burden.
[1:30:21] I see. um yeah i i asked her why she she did it and she yeah she just says she i don't know why i was she she she she tells she admits that she was she acted horribly and it was wrong and immoral and awful and she wishes she could go back and do that and all that types of stuff so i guess to answer your question from earlier that's why i i still am in contact with her at least and not in great contact to be fair i mean we'll we'll still talk every now and then and but as why but at least she gave me that opportunity to talk and and she owned up to it in some degree i hear what you're saying she didn't really provide her why so she has come up short in that she's given me an audience nonetheless and but my father just hasn't been able to do that for me well he's has chosen to not he could he could he's just chosen not to okay so what what are the characteristics that anger you the most about your wife where you just get that kind of, rage towards her what is it that angers you the most about about your wife.
[1:31:29] Um, yeah, she'll, I mean, so in my details, she's right now, our dynamic is where we're set up and maybe this is not even the best because it has been happening way before this dynamic. So I'll just try to stick with that.
Um, she can get really stressed out, like really, really stressed out to where, you know, she is overly critical.
Um, you know, you know, needs things to be the way It works for her, and then she'll go on the attack.
She can throw some insults at me, and I think that's what really triggers it is when she gets so— So what are the insults that she throws at you? What does she say?
Oh, God. I mean, it's so amazing how you know this, but you need an exact detail. It just vanishes.
Well, it's not an exact detail.
I'm not asking you to reproduce her accent. I'm just, what are the words that she uses when she insults you? I mean, I assume this has been going on for 13 years. You've got to remember a couple of them. You don't have to remember all of them.
[1:32:31] You're right. I'm sorry. It's just, so, again, she gets overly stressed out on stuff.
I may try to suggest something, which I know when, you know, when women get stressed out, I'm just supposed to listen and offer my sympathies.
But then, of course, I fall into that same trap of trying to manage it or give her suggestions.
And she'll say something like, no, you dumb motherfucker. fucker and and then oh my gosh really yeah she'll she'll she she can throw some pretty nasty insults my way and what else does she what else does she say oh just you know uh uh i mean she'll i mean she'll just get really enticed with rage or like just just with stress like overwhelmed like it's So much that I noticed that sometimes she'll she'll repeatedly punch the palm of her hand, you know, like repeatedly, like I almost feel like she's wanting to punch my head, you know, or acting it out that way.
I'm sorry. Did you say punch the side of her hand or the side of her head?
[1:33:36] Sorry, she'll punch her palm. A punch upon. Got it. Yeah. She'll punch her palm repeatedly and say, oh, you dumb motherfucker.
Or she'll just say, no, you know, anything that I say is just absolutely ridiculous.
So she'll get into these really, really like rageful when stress overcomes her.
And when I'm trying to manage it, I think the insults come up and it could be something else.
Like she might bring up something there where I screwed up in in the past or yada, yada, yada.
And then we'll start hurling insults at each other, which is just so childish, so awful.
No, that's not childish. No, no, no. Don't insult children. Children don't do that if they're raised well.
Okay, so what kind of things will you say to each other?
[1:34:26] Uh, just, just, just insults. Uh, I, I know that I can be pretty, uh, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm awful at dishing out the insults, uh, when I feel like I'm attacked personally.
Okay. So what, what, what, what do you say to each other?
[1:34:47] I mean though I will tell her you know she doesn't really have many friends so I will kind of use that against her you know like oh you know you should it'd be nice if you could you know talk to somebody else about because I can't you know if you know you're always coming to me with your issues and that and that's fine I'm here for that but boy it would be nice if you could just call a girlfriend but you know you're mean you know you're mean you're short you're short-tempered you know you you you um you're particular um she she's often talked about okay that's you're really hedging here and if you don't want to tell me what you call her right i wish you had more friends you're mean you and i both know that is by far that's far from the extent of of the negative things you say about her now if you don't want to tell me that's fine we can move on but i don't for a moment believe that that's the worst stuff you've ever said to her, oh right yes no you're right it's it's it's just it's the motion just gets so overwhelmed i know i will curse i will call you're being a bitch you're being you know you're um like uh, uh i know you're you're you're being.
[1:35:59] No you're stressed you really got to get over the stress this is ridiculous like you know um Um, like, you know, you need to calm down, stuff like that.
Um, like, uh, you know, shut the fuck up, that kind of stuff.
Uh, like, chill out. I'll say that. Like, chill the fuck out.
Um. Okay.
[1:36:25] Yeah yeah and what does uh what what are the things that she says to you that are the hot button stuff that stuff that gets you seeing red.
[1:36:37] Just the the personal attacks you know call me dumb motherfucker or you don't know what you're talking about or like for example if you know she's you know she's talking about her job and And, you know, she's getting overwhelmed by having to, she needs to focus on her job and she keeps getting pinged by other people and it's disrupting her.
And I'll say, hey, why don't you just, you know, put yourself on busy and, you know, especially if it's not totally urgent and then you can get back with them.
And she'll be like, that's not, I can't do that. That's stupid.
You don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're not working.
You know, you don't, you're not, you don't have this job. You don't understand anything. So no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do that.
Oh, that's right. Right, because she's the income owner, right?
And you're the stay-at-home?
Yes. Okay, got it. Yes. Got it. Okay. And I'm trying to think of arguments even prior to this dynamic.
[1:37:29] And of course, I want to be so transparent with you about the things that we say and whatnot.
And it's just, it's so, for the life of me, I don't know why I'm having such a hard time trying to think of the exact words that are spewed. I can...
But it sounds it sounds about as bad as it can get right yeah yes yes yeah i mean we don't have to get into specifics you know whether it's a see you next tuesday word or whatever right but it's it's i mean it's about as bad as it could get in terms of insults and negative terms right, yes yes absolutely well put it's it's horrible it's just it's it's just awful and when did these kinds of verbal bombs get thrown was it sort of similar to the violence like it started pretty pretty early in the relationship when there was conflict.
[1:38:14] Oh, yeah, yeah. It was the verbal bombs and verbal spews.
I know early on, before we were really, really official, you know, she'd have jealousy issues.
You know, we would get in arguments about that. And it was rightfully deserved.
I was still trying to navigate my way in a relationship with this.
And, you know, and so that was warranted. And we'd have blowups over that.
That and then and sorry how often how often would you have these kinds of verbal conflicts, early on in the relationship well i mean let's let's just say over the last year are they like weekly monthly by i mean i assume that there's at least as common as this sort of five times a year of physical violence yeah the verbal the verbal abuse is is is fairly common it's it's it's almost like another day you know it just it's like a oh so these kinds of verbal attacks are daily every other day kind of thing i wouldn't say they're daily but yeah probably once a week on average they they they're they're almost routine almost at some times you know but but of course not all of them escalate into um violence yeah like maybe one out of okay got it got it and what was the decision point that you had i guess about three years ago around having having children?
[1:39:37] Yeah, it was during the height of COVID. I was going through just some, like everybody, I think, just going through a complete upside down tilt of my world, just really starting to come into my own more of, because, you know, admittedly, I didn't really care about what was going on in the world.
I was into movies, into the sport.
It's just, you know, just kind of just doing that kind of sleepwalking lifestyle.
But, you know, eventually I feel like I finally started to, to wake up to more important matters and whatnot.
Um, I started, you know, listening to more, um, conservative and more right-leaning information, really kind of break out of my, um, my, uh, you know, my propagandized mind.
And then that, and then when I started to really, And thank God I did, because, you know, it was a great reawakening for me.
And I know when I told my wife, hey, you know, look, I this and she's like, oh, my God, you're not going to turn all conservative on me.
But then I was able to, you know, tell her how I felt, the information that I came across.
And then she pivoted with me and agrees with me.
So that was really great. And so once I kind of got through all that nonsense, we both looked at each other and said, yeah, absolutely, we should we should have children together. We both want that.
And so I guess our children are going to be tacked up into the part of the COVID boom.
[1:41:04] And did you have a conversation about like, we really need to clean up how we communicate and these verbal and physical fights before we have kids?
[1:41:13] Oh, yeah, yeah. We certainly had those conversations. And it's just, I know, last time we had a spute, we just talked about how awful it was that we didn't be more proactive in seeking help.
Well, hang on. So, sorry. So, before you had kids, you realized that you had to deal with these fights and these temper issues, right?
Yeah. And so, what did you do to try and deal with that?
[1:41:42] Well pathetically enough nothing i i just think we we tried to open up more lines of communication with each other we no no i mean i know like this this like that's all just a bunch of words like i mean in terms of practical stuff right i mean did you take anger management classes did you do therapy did you do couples counseling i mean did you do anything sort of tangible or practical uh in the world.
Like, you know, if you've spent 12, if you've spent, like, 10 years or whatever not solving a problem, then you need to go to an expert to help you solve it, right?
Right, right. And, no, to answer your question, we didn't do anything tangible or practical to solve it.
And why do you think you didn't do anything like that?
[1:42:29] Vanity, thinking that I could do it on my own. Well, no, I mean, I mean, but even if you can do it on your own, it's, you know, I mean, it's, it's, isn't it easier and more efficient to have, you know, I could probably learn how to fix my car on my own, but it's generally easier to have some guy come in and do it, right?
So, maybe it's the vanity thing or something like that, but there was some reason why you didn't, because, because you guys basically chose to have kids while still suffering from significant levels of verbal and physical abuse, right?
Yes, we did.
And you've continued to fight since the kids were born. I guess you've got a one-year-old and a two-year-old, give or take, right? Yes.
So it's the kids, of course, who deserve peaceful parents, right?
I mean, peaceful parenting also includes peaceful parents, right?
So if you had a strong enough bond with the kids, you wouldn't fight.
Because it's really harming the kids, right?
[1:43:32] Yes so when i look at parents who are fighting i i see that they're willing to harm their children to quote win against their spouse right now of course nobody wins right it was just winning in the moment right and that means to me that there's not to me there's not enough of a strong strong bond with the children where you'd say, well, we can't, no, we can't fight like this, it's bad for the kids, right?
[1:44:06] You know i mean i've talked to people over the years who drink and drive with kids in the car right i mean if you cared about your kids enough you'd never do that in a million years right, so then i look and i say okay well what what modeling is there that the bond is not there right that are not there enough that you won't fight with the kids around right or you won't fight at all because that's tough for the kids because they're always around right they're one One and two.
It's not the inner summer camp, right? So then, okay.
So the first, there's two things that I sort of thought about when we were going to talk, right? The first thing is look for where the bond isn't there between parent-child.
And, of course, we can see that with your mother and you and your father and you, right?
Neither of them were particularly bonded. And what I mean by that is you grew up with parents who put their own selfish pleasures against or their own selfish preferences against the good of their children, right?
They sacrificed their children's well-being and happiness for the sake of their own selfish preferences, right?
Now, that cycle is totally repeating, right? Yeah, yeah, it certainly is.
Right, because you and your wife are indulging in these stupid, violent, ugly fights at the expense of your children's happiness, right?
[1:45:18] So, I look for a lack of bond, and then I look at anger against the feminine, right?
I mean, unless you're getting into fistfights with random bikers at bars or something like that, it seems to me that you're only aggressing against your wife, right?
Yes. I assume that neither of you have aggressed against your children in this violent way?
No. Okay. So, I assume also that you're larger than your wife?
Yes, I am. Okay. How many pounds do you have on her?
[1:45:56] 50 okay and you probably also had 50 pounds on your brother at some point too right, oh yes i certainly did right so i mean you really have a lifetime at least from the age of 13 or so onwards probably 20 years or whatever give or take so you you have a lifetime of aggressing against smaller weaker people and that started with your brother and maybe it's transferred over to your wife if that makes sense i think that's very fair and i i think i i think i came to that conclusion with myself too right i think so and you also have not this is sort of why i was asking you about sort of moral advice or personality advice or you know how do you deal with negative impulses or feelings in yourself right and if you haven't had that and also you were left alone a a lot and you were not given restraint or restrictions right you weren't coached on, self-restraint if that makes sense again if i've misunderstood anything what you're saying obviously you set me set me straight but as far as self-limiting behavior right like i'm not going to do this i'm not going to do that because that's really bad right.
[1:47:06] Right. Absolutely. I did not receive strong enough guidance from either of my parents of right or wrong.
Well, no, you got counter guidance because they did whatever the hell they wanted to at the expense of their kids.
So you didn't see them restrain their own negative behavior for the sake of others, right?
No. No. So they indulged whatever they wanted to do at the expense of their kids, and they didn't teach you on how to deal with your temper or your anger.
So you grew up with like, okay, what you do with your temper and your anger is you indulge it.
I mean, my parents indulged what they wanted to do, and I feel like getting angry, so I'm going to indulge that too.
[1:47:48] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they took us to counselors. I remember seeing a psychiatrist, but they...
I'm sorry?
[1:48:17] I'm sorry, are you still there? Yes, you said that we just lost you for a second when you said you went to counselors, the psychiatrists.
Yeah, I remember my father, he saw the rage, and then we did go see a psychiatrist.
So I just think that was his way of solving the problem, you know, outsourcing it to somebody else.
Right, right. Okay. I assume the psychiatrist, given that we're talking now, like so many years later, I assume the psychiatrist was not super helpful.
No, it certainly wasn't. And, you know, when I look back on those sessions, I have a lot of, probably my fault, because I do remember not being honest with the psychiatrist.
[1:49:03] Right. Okay. Okay.
Right. And what's your ideal thing to get out of this conversation?
What, what would be the best thing for you to get out of this conversation?
[1:49:22] I'm dying to know where this rage is where is it coming from you're uncared for as a child you're uncared for as a child, you're uncared for as a child people didn't mentor you, they didn't train you they didn't teach you your mom just shrugged and walked the fuck off away from you, and didn't invest in you didn't teach you didn't help you harness i mean harnessing the dark side is the essence of masculinity i mean and femininity too but you know man to man we're talking right man to man harnessing your dark side is essential you can't live without your dark side but you can't let it run your life right you need the dark side for when people are fucking with you right i mean outsiders not people you love not family members right not the mother of your children but if people are screwing with you you need the dark side right, Right. Maybe that's why my anger with my father is so much, and that's why I cut him out, is because he just wasn't able to give that to me.
No, you see, you keep using this language like wasn't able.
See, if your father is just unable to do things and you let him off the hook, who else do you let off the hook?
[1:50:45] You. you you have to give perfect and true and 100 free will to both parents in order for you to have free will yourself like you want to choose different right, yes i do desperate right so if you want to choose different you can't give, you can't take away choice from anyone if you want to choose different because if you say well my parents couldn't do this and they had no choice with that they did the best they could then you're just giving yourself permission to be an asshole, because if your father could be an asshole but it wasn't his fault then you could be an asshole and it's not your fault does that make sense and i mean this with sympathy and with care and concern i'm not trying to put you down we all have the capacity to be assholes so i'm just pointing it out like you use this language your dad in particular and your mom too to some degree it's like well he couldn't and he right no he could have and he knew he should have, so tell me when i said you weren't cared for as a child that seemed to hit your heart pretty hard Is that right?
Yeah, yeah, it certainly did. So you're untutored.
And you should have been tutored. I mean, you'll see this as a parent.
Maybe it's already happening.
I know this as a parent. Kids need constant little course corrections.
They need big course corrections when they're younger and then little course corrections later on.
[1:52:06] But they need them constantly. And it doesn't sound to me like you got much of anything.
I mean, at a time when you desperately needed help with your anger, your rage, your destructive behavior towards your brother, your mom was like, I rented a movie.
[1:52:25] Have some candy. I got popcorn.
Jesus.
And even so now when we would tell them just how much of a struggle it is to raise these children on their own and they didn't come.
They didn't come and help us even with the sleep deprivation or nothing.
[1:52:52] Yeah.
It sucks, man. It sucks.
But they didn't help you with the rage they did i mean other they shipped you off to a psychiatrist but that didn't help and they didn't help you with the rage didn't help you with the abandonment aren't helping you with the causality behind what they did are still letting you carry the burden, so you're you're angry and you know one of the ways that that i'm not saying you're a criminal But one of the ways that you produce really dysfunctional people, particularly males, is you shield them for the consequences of their own bad behavior.
And this, of course, is partly what your wife is doing as well.
Like, it's not helpful, right? No, no, it's not.
So, I could tell you, I think, how to solve the problem.
And you can certainly get mad at me and yell at me. That's fine. No biggie, right?
We're not married, right? So I can tell you how I think you can solve the problem.
[1:54:03] I'm all ears. Well, so the reason why you do these things is because you give yourself permission to do these things.
Now, why do you give yourself permission? Because you were raised with self-indulgent people who sacrificed their children's interests or the interests of other people for their own selfish pleasures, right?
And you give yourself permission to do this. So, for instance, have you ever attacked your wife at a mall?
Oh, look, you could restrain yourself. Has your wife ever screamed you dumb MF at a family dinner?
No. No. Oh, look, she can restrain herself. It's not Tourette's, right? You're not having a stroke or epilepsy.
So you and your wife both have the perfect capacity to restrain your tempers.
You don't get taken over.
You're not possessed. You give yourself permission to do it.
[1:55:05] Now, thank goodness you didn't give yourself permission to do all the things your brother gave himself permission to do, or you'd probably be sharing a soul, right?
So good progress there. Honestly, I'm not kidding. Good progress there.
You do it because you give yourself permission to do it. and when it's negative to you, in other words, there's a cop around or a security guard or you're in public or, right, then you don't do it.
Because there, you don't give yourself permission to do it at the mall, right?
[1:55:36] Yeah, yeah. You don't give yourself permission to do it at church or in front of a cop or in front of her parents or your parents or whatever, right? I mean, no, you don't see your dad.
But you don't give yourself permission to do that shit, so miraculously, it doesn't happen.
I mean, if you're short of money, you don't sit there and say, say, well, I guess I could just go rob a convenience store, couldn't I?
No, because you don't give yourself permission. You say, I don't know how I'm going to get money, but I'm not going to rob a convenience store. That's crazy, right?
[1:56:06] So you got something in you where it's like, I don't give myself permission to do this.
And then somewhere else, like maybe at home alone, or you say, oh, I'm now flipping the switch. I now have permission to do this.
[1:56:24] So all you have to do is extend the i don't give myself permission to do this from the mall to your house, Now, not doing it will kick up a whole bunch of emotional stuff and you'll deal with all of that. You're a robust fella, right? So you're a smart fella, so you can deal.
But you just, that switch that you say it's off at the mall, just keep it off at home.
Imagine there's a camera with a feed to the police station. Imagine there's a cop knocking on the door. Imagine whatever.
Imagine you left a broadcast live stream on, right? Right?
Like, you ever see those little videos where some guy is stealing something, and then he looks up at the camera, and he smiles, nods, prays sorry, and puts it back?
Yeah. Okay, so now he knows he's being recorded. Look at that.
He can magically make himself not steal, right?
So, you've got to switch. There's on for temper, off for temper.
Out in public, in front of cops, it's off, right?
But then, in some situations, you say, fuck it, I'm switching this thing on. Well, don't.
And you say well that's really hard no it's not it's not hard, because you do it all the time when you're out in public.
[1:57:46] Every time you're out in public you don't scream at or yell at or throw your wife on the ground right 100% of the time, so you have no problem not doing it and you're not even tempted to do it right, no Right, you just don't do it. Like, that's just off the list. The switch is off.
Now, you are the switch. You have the switch.
Now, your history, your parents, the screwed-up, neglected childhood that you had, that's all like, man, just switch it to on. Come on, baby.
Come on. Show her who's the boss. You switch it to on. The devil, the fucking devil himself is saying to you, turn that switch on.
And the angels are saying, keep it off, keep it off. I don't know what's going to happen, but we're not doing this, right?
[1:58:38] And you see what happened with your brother when he gave himself permission to do stuff, right?
And you know what's going to happen to you if you continue to give yourself permission to do this stuff. Whereas if you just say, I'm not doing it.
Like, the switch is off. because that's an integrity is when you you control the switch not the circumstances oh if i can get away with stealing i will that's not having integrity right having integrity is you know what i don't yell verbal abuse and i don't throw my partner on the ground like i'm just that's not a good thing to do i i want to be a good person i want to be a moral person i'm not doing that shit and again you you don't do it at the mall so don't do it at home that's integrity right having the same values everywhere right it's like returning the parking like returning the shopping shopping cart to where it's supposed to be, even if it's the middle of the night and no one's around.
You have your own standards of behavior, not what can I get away with, but what's right. And it's not right to do what you're doing, right?
[1:59:37] Now, of course, you know, if your wife wants to call in too, it's not right for her to be doing this. And I get all of that, but I'm talking to you, not her.
And I, you know, you can't control what she does. And yes, she's probably, you know, you've had 13 years of her throwing MF bombs at you.
Yeah, she's going to do that.
But you don't sit there and say well i've quit smoking well unless somebody offers me a cigarette then i'm gonna smoke it's like then you haven't quit smoking quitting smoking is when somebody offers you a cigarette you say no so you just need to get that to be a good person and this is stuff of course your parents should have taught you and i really sympathize for that i'm not trying to make you feel like a bad guy here i really sympathize for the lack of training you got as a kid and i I hugely respect you for calling in and talking about this stuff. It takes a lot of guts, a lot of courage.
But integrity is when you're in control of your own switches, and you don't just say, oh, shit, circumstances switched the rage to on.
Great, I'll rage. Oh, I'm at a mall. Okay, I won't.
That's just like being a pinball, bing, bing, bing, bouncing around everywhere.
It's like being a leaf in the wind.
Oh, I can get away with it? I'll do it. Oh, I can't get away with it? I won't do it.
[2:00:44] That's not having self-control. That's not having a will. that's not having morals if that makes sense and i'm not saying you're an immoral guy i'm just saying in this particular area true morality is when you control the switch.
[2:00:59] Not circumstances not what you can get away with and you don't give the you don't give your switch to your partner right, you say oh well she when she's tense when she's stressed when she insults me i flip that switch she's she's flipping it for me not me it's like no that's not that's not owning yourself.
That's not being responsible for your own behavior, which you are.
She doesn't have any control over that switch.
She might go to you and say, oh, come on, big boy, you throw that switch on, whatever, whatever.
But it's like, nope, I'm in control of the switch.
[2:01:31] And I don't flip it to on because I don't want to do evil. And I don't want to harm my children.
[2:01:40] Now, your parents didn't do that. And I'm really sorry for that.
I'm like desperately sorry for that.
And I'm sorry that your mom made you feel worthless. And I'm sorry that your dad leered at waitresses.
And I'm sorry that your dad was a creep. And I'm sorry that your dad didn't take any ownership for the anger that you had. And I'm sorry that your dad didn't intervene and stop you at the age of 13 from attacking your brother.
I'm really sorry for all of that, and your mother too.
But that is in the past, and you are an adult now. And as a kid, you don't have control over your switches, obviously, right?
Any more than you have control over your bladder. You're a baby.
Well, you know this. You just pee, right?
So you don't have any control over your switches when you're a kid.
And the whole point of adult is you get control over your switches.
So circumstances your parents they're flipping switches all over the place you got a mean teacher a bully but switch a switch then you get to be adults like they're my switches they're my fucking switches hands off everyone hands off everyone they're my switches that's me, i'm in control now i have authority over myself integrity virtue, and philosophy tells me what to do not circumstances not my wife not my tiredness, not my excuses, not my childhood me, I own myself I choose the fucking switches and this one is off, unless somebody's coming at me with a chainsaw.
[2:03:08] Does that make sense? no it makes perfect sense, and you'll be goaded and you'll feel that slip, oh come on man flip the switch, flip the switch, do it right, and I understand that, we all have that temptation, we all have that temptation Thank you for your attention.
[2:03:27] I still have that temptation, you understand. You're not alone in this.
I'm 57 years old. I still have that temptation, right?
It happens. But you have to have control over yourself.
Otherwise, you're just being pushed around. And every time you're pushed around, things get darker and blacker, right? Yeah.
[2:03:57] I'm in control i'm in control i'm in control and i don't surrender that control to anyone, not to my wife not to my parents not to my history not to my habits i don't take, my hand off that switch for anyone it doesn't get pushed without my consent I own myself, and I'm responsible for everything that I do, which means not having any excuses.
And when you don't have excuses, you have integrity.
And again, I say this with massive sympathy for what you didn't experience as a child, because sometimes those absence of experiences are what is the toughest.
What you didn't experience was nurturing, loving, guidance and help and setting you on the right path and all that kind of good stuff.
We have.
[2:05:11] Yeah, I can imagine you're a bit angry at your mom and take it out on your wife.
I can imagine that you're angry at your dad but inhabit his behavior.
And I can imagine that you were raised by selfish people who indulge their preferences at the expense of their children.
And you and your wife do that a little bit, right? Or maybe more than a little bit.
[2:05:33] But you guide yourself by your kids. That's the great thing about being a parent is your life becomes enormously simple, right?
What do I do? What's best for my kids? What do I do? what's best for my kids what do i not do what harms my kids this harms your kids so you don't do it your switch is off i mean the switch your hands the kids of your hands are on the switch and that switch is always to off again unless there's a guy running at you with a chainsaw which is not the case with your wife right so your kids hands are on that switch your kids hands need that switch to be off otherwise it harms them right right right and then you mentioned earlier about um the likelihood of me not having a strong enough connection with them is one reason too why i can that switch is so easy for me to turn on right once you bond with them and do what's best for them that switch will be pretty easy to keep off because you say not not not what i not do i feel like doing in the moment because i'm angry but what's best for my kids kids in the long run yeah that that was a that was powerful to hear because you know I I feel like my parents again like I feel like you know now that I'm the prime I'm a stay-at-home dad that I I do bond and I have created these loving bonds with them but as you put it out yeah it's it's certainly not strong enough.
[2:06:57] I'm also, of course, a big fan of anger management, and I think that stuff can be really, really good and helpful.
And I don't just mean reading a book, like maybe actually going to anger management.
It's very specific, and I don't think they use drugs, and that stuff can be really, really helpful, and I would strongly recommend that.
Yeah, no, absolutely. That's good to hear. I don't know why I have this skepticism when it comes to that kind of stuff, but no, I— Well, you had the psychiatrist who wasn't particularly helpful and all of that.
But anchor management, it's very specific in particular ways to sort of deal with de-escalation and so on and make sure you dismantle that rising beast that, again, we all have and I sympathize with, but I would strongly recommend that.
[2:07:43] And, you know, again, don't put it off, right?
I mean, because every day is kind of an emergency here, right?
This is why I took the call today when you emailed me today, because it sounds like kind of an emergency, right? Right.
So, you know, I would hope maybe you don't have to commit anything to me, but I would hope that, you know, you get off the call with me and look it up and book an appointment and just make sure you get there and and work that way.
And and, you know, and make sure you don't be like, well, my wife has to take it, too. It's like, no, no, no.
You've got to maybe in this case, you have to lead her by inspiration.
But that would be my suggestion is, you know, get go and go down that road.
And if you if you change what she does, sorry, if you change what you do, she's going to change what she does. That's just how it's going to be.
But really focus on just fixing yourself, your relationship with your kids.
Keep your hand on that switch. Keep their hand on the switch.
And I'm sure that things will work out enormously better.
[2:08:38] No, I appreciate that. And I really appreciate you taking my call today in such a timely manner.
Seemed important. It really means the world. Seemed important.
Yeah, it certainly was. This is so fresh.
It's just so recent still. I'm still reeling from it. So this is invaluable.
And I think part of me knows that, and that was why I had it in me to reach out to you.
And I certainly do want to go to anger management, and I certainly don't want to break my promise to you, my wife.
Yeah, you can't yell at her, you can't call her names, and the switch has to be off. You cannot touch her in anger.
And listen, I appreciate your commitment to that, and I'm afraid I have something this evening, and I'm really, really sorry, but I do have to boogie.
Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
Yeah, I would be more than happy to keep you posted and maybe do a follow-up.
Oh please do yeah and if there's you know if if there's an emergency you've got my skype you can give me a shout and i'll be happy to chat further um but i really do respect and admire you for the call today it's hard stuff to do and you did a fantastic job.
[2:09:52] It means a lot to me. It really does. And again, thank you so much for your time. You're welcome, brother. Keep me posted and thanks a mil.
[2:10:00] I will. Take care. Bye. All right. Just a little addendum here.
I know this was a tough call, but I got a message from this fellow after the call.
He said, here's an update after a conversation, blah, blah, blah.
After no contact and communication for a day and a half, my wife and I finally had a talk last night for several hours and it went extremely well.
In fact, it was without a doubt the most productive conversation we've had discussing our troubles.
I was finally able to just listen to her with my guard completely down and with a mantra of no more excuses and absolute self-ownership on repeat in my head.
[2:10:38] Understandably, my wife does not believe that my rage against her isn't personal.
She feels it's due to our power dynamic and my wanting to, quote, put her in her place.
I shared with her that my violence stems from my childhood and my parental rejection and promised her like I promised you that I am determined to climb that enormous mountain of regaining her trust and to never use force on her again after our talk I feel like I have finally found the fuel to take on this journey no matter how long it takes or even if there is no end in sight, my wife is interested in speaking with you on this matter anyway we talked about that again from the bottom of my heart thank you so much I donated for our conversation on that's day and to become the process of starting anger management and i meant to tell you over the phone that i hope you have a wonderful christmas season and happy new year so i just wanted to point out we do some great good here and i really really thank you for your support in helping all of this happens if you'd like to help out the show free domain.com slash donate and obviously massive congratulations to this young man.
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