PUT VIRTUE ABOVE RELATIONSHIPS! Freedomain Call In - Transcript

[0:00] I think I wanted to chat with you and kind of what I talked about, kind of getting stuck in this middler zone of life of kind of avoiding knowing how to avoid bad relationships, but stuck and finding good relationships and meeting good people in life.
That's kind of what I'd like to focus on. All right. Do you want to give me some backstory? Backstory?
I'm getting close to 40 years old now.
I've kind of had just failed relationships in the past with women kind of through your show helped identify kind of what the bad qualities I was getting into, the relationships I was getting into.
Do and um just kind of yes stuck in this middle zone where i think i've eliminated um bad parts of my life or bad relationships and now i'm kind of just kind of stuck in this or kind of how i wrote about this desert of just kind of on the cusp of of something but you're you just don't see it yet welcome to the desert of the real yeah yeah yes yes.

[1:13] Okay, where do you want to start? Childhood? Do you want to start recent relationships?
What's best for you? We could start childhood, yeah.

Childhood: The Impact of Parents' Marriage

[1:20] How do you want to go with that? All right, so do you want a marriage like your parents?
No, I do not. Well, there's your first thing, right? There's your first challenge, right?
Okay, so what was going on with your parents' marriage that it was not great?
I think, well, they're still married. I think they get along, but being raised, it was both working parents.
And I didn't really have much relationship with either one of them growing up, really.
And I kind of felt even to this day, it's kind of what they're into and they don't really care much or show much interest in what I do or, you know, now or when I was a kid.
Were you in daycare early, or did your mom stay home at all? What's that? Sorry.

[2:16] Were you in daycare early, or did your mom stay home at all?
I was in daycare early. Yeah, not much.
That's all I remember as a kid, really, is daycare from start till going to different people's houses after school.
And kind of how you've talked about there's big chunks of kind of childhood where just kind of blanked out of not not really ever really doing anything like i don't think i ever had a real relationship with my father outside of doing what he wanted to do um okay so when you were a kid i mean obviously during the weekday you were in daycares or whatever but when you got older i mean there's weekends and holidays and and all of that and and march break um were your parents around for any of that stuff?

[3:04] They're around, but mainly I just remember being left alone and doing things as a kid around, you know, with friends or siblings growing up, but never we'd go on vacations and stuff.
But my father was just very, very impatient, real quick to anger, could kind of a type that can go from zero to just berserker screaming rage like that. Oh, so it's like a bully.

[3:30] Yes, very much so. Yeah. So it's not that he's angry.
I mean, it's this important thing. And again, it's your life.
So if I'm wrong, obviously tell me.
But when people go from zero to rage, it's a bully tactic.
It's not an organic kind of slow, like an organic anger.
It's like, okay, well, I'll get my way if I scream, so I'll scream.

[3:52] Stream okay yeah yeah and that and that's how he was it was and i butted heads a lot when i was a kid because i didn't quite understand it why but i mean it would go he's a pretty sizable guy and as a kid just really big really strong and you know like you said it was it was bullying tactics yeah and and the problem of course is that is if you associate that with anger then it it means it's tougher for you to get angry right because you associate anger with abuse and and therefore you might be a little more compliant or whatever it is but if you say okay well he just he was a scary bully who who intimidated people to get what he wants uh i mean that's kind of pathetic particularly when it's directed against children and it doesn't really have anything to do with anger uh as as a healthy emotion uh gotcha yeah yeah and i just felt even it it growing up like lots and lots of stress because of that like i'd get you know like like the jitters or the shakes just from that constant.
It was just from zero to just rage.
And it was basically, yeah, if we were doing something that, that was against his wishes or what he wanted to do, it was just a way to get you to comply.

[5:02] And I think to this day, when people do that to me at work or on the job or

Childhood Trauma's Influence on Relationships

[5:07] with what I do, I, I instantly, yeah, I could, could, I could match that level, but I don't want to like, I know it's there, but it's not. Oh, you mean like like the sort of fight back stuff?
Yeah, yeah, where they get in your face. I work in a lot of different construction jobs, and that tactic's used a lot, and I just have zero tolerance for it.
I don't know. It just snaps me back to those feelings of just being pushed around when you didn't, you know, it's just not, knowing now after listening to you for several years, that's just not the way you treat people.

[5:42] Several years wait are you saying there are several years you didn't listen i'm just kidding all right no you know you you bully your kids you're making their life unnecessarily difficult because it means that assertiveness becomes stressful really stressful right yeah that's what i noticed and i think that's what happened during stressful times of my life or in stressful relationships that i found mimic that relationship i those same symptoms would happen like that kind kind of that unconscious, let me know I'm in a bad situation or a bad relationship.
And have you ever had a chance to talk to, well, of course you've had the chance, but did you ever end up talking to him about this?
I have tried, but it's always deflected or again, blocked. And if I bring it up with family members, it's the same thing.
The excuse is you got to deal with him, not the other way around.
And so it's always like that. Wait, what? Sorry, I didn't follow that.
That one oh like uh like you talked about it's easier for the bully people to work around the bully than the bully having to change their ways so if i bring it up okay so yeah they uh they figure out who's the nicest and most reasonable person then and screw that person's interest right yeah and then like it feels like a part of you dying or being yeah subdued and and you're not the one causing it.

[7:05] So when you talk about it with your dad, what happens when you try to?
Just immediately shut down. Like I remember as a kid, you try to talk, he'd turn the TV up, but just any way to drown you out, just basically knowing that, you know, if it's not a concern to him, it's just my problem.
Huh. Like literally would just turn the volume up until you stopped talking?
Like literally i talked like as we if we were talking right now he would just crank keep turning the volume up until you know the hitting that rage and and yelling and you know shut up sort of so if you were to say dad it's kind of rude to it's kind of rude to raise the volume while i'm trying to talk to you could you please turn that off like would he comply or would he like just turn it up and tell you to f off or whatever yeah just keep turning up and f off it's It's like there's defined, clear, no-go zones.
And it's like I've butted my head against those enough to know that.
So a bully and a coward. Excellent. Of course, that's almost predictable, right?
Yeah. And what did your mom say about all of this?
Very similar. It's just kind of like I have – it was always like I caused the outburst or I was responsible.
So I kind of grew up kind of you, you know, you kind of know, What you can and can't cross you kind of adapt as a kid on how to how to handle those handle that like, you know when when you're gonna reach that point and and it's gonna you're gonna face the backlash or the consequences and.

[8:35] Right. Like if you poke the bear and the bear takes a swipe at you, maybe don't poke the bear. Like it's not the bear. Yeah.
And it was always there was always an excuse for the for his reactions to me.
But, you know, that I had to change, but never, you know, a meeting in the middle or any, you know, genuine interest or anything that I had.
Almost like a like you had talked about on your shows, like a animosity towards me, I guess, because I tend to pick up things quicker.

Annoying animosity with father's lack of encouragement

[9:03] And, you know, did well in school and on jobs when we worked together.
And it always seemed like there was like an animosity or a jealousy that was annoying.
Rather than if I felt like if I was a father and my son was doing better than me or doing well, like you'd encourage that. There was never that encouragement.
It was just kind of... Well, I mean, as a sort of, as a dad, it's like, it's a little surprising when that happens.
It is, of course, inevitable. I mean, there's things that my daughter is better than me at by now.
And what it does is it gives you that slight chill of mortality because it's like, oh, yeah, she's here to replace me. She's not here to hang out with me forever.
She's here to replace me because I'm going to die. And so when your kids get better than you at things, it sort of brings up that chill, you know, mortality thing.

[9:56] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know you've talked about that in the past, but just, yeah, dealing with that, it just, yeah, I just never, I don't know, never knew how to handle that or just kind of that.
Sorry, you never knew how to handle that?
Or just how to deal with it or how to deal with that type of relationship with your father.
Father of like you're doing well but there's no real interest other than if if it's helping them for what they want done like work-wise or around the house or that sort of thing, right okay and how did your parents get along uh they get along fine it's just but it's.

[10:37] There's just a lot of that. Oh, you're kidding me, dude.
Oh, you're so smart. You're so smart. And yet you say things like this.
They get along fine. Your father's a bully and your mother allows him to bully her child.
And but they get along just fine. Come on.
No. Well, what I mean is it's not a relationship I'd want, but I don't, you know, it's their relationship and I don't like it. And I don't, I want to be able to.
Okay. So now telling me that it's their relation, you already told me it's the relationship they don't want.
I don't mean this with any negativity. I'm just sort of pointing it out. Right.
So saying theirs is the relationship I want.
Well, you already told me that that's the basis of this entire conversation and it's their relationship.
I mean, do you think I don't know that? I just asked about their relationship.
So remind me that it's their relationship. So this all defensive stuff, right?
Because you have this thing, like they get along fine. fine. How is that part?
Are you saying that somebody who can be a bully to his child and somebody who enables bullying of that child and somebody I'm sure that he would bully your mom as well too, right?
So somebody who's married to a bully who also bullies children and who attacks the self-esteem and self-interest of the most reasonable person in order to appease the nastiest person around, are you saying someone like that, they can just get along fine?

[12:02] No, I don't – yeah, I see what you're saying. I don't think it's healthy.
I don't like it, and that's why I've kind of – I've separated from it in large part.

[12:15] So I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Okay, and so this is part of the contradiction.

Exploring the dynamics of parents' unhealthy relationship

[12:21] Because if you say it's possible to be really nasty and have a decent relationship, then I need to make some foundational arguments towards you.
Okay, yes, I agree. Their relationship to me is not healthy. To you or objectively?
Objectively. I'd say it's not a healthy relationship. Okay, so what aspects of their relationship is unhealthy?
I'd say just the inability to just have conversations without yelling, you know, without the bullying tactics of just blowing up because that zero to blow up, it happens as well between them.

[13:00] Is it both of them blowing up? More so my father and then my mom from time to time, but she kind of, it seemed like more of like an enabler.
Like her mother would be very similar to who she married, had that same sort of bullying tactic.
And I think she's more of like an enabler. But you're saying that sometimes she does blow up?
Well, yeah, well, kind of, yeah, sometimes, yeah.
And what's the sort of, is it 60-40, 70-30, 80-20, 90-10 in terms of your dad or your mom blowing up?
Probably my dad more so. It's just, yeah, she kind of, it's just probably 80-20.
80-20, okay. Okay. Yeah.
And how has their relationship changed if at all over the years?
Honestly, I think it's the same as I've always known it.
That kind of dynamic. And it's just that he's still that same way of just that kind of that tactic of just blowing up.
And evidently, that was how his father taught from talking to other people in the family. That was how his father was.
But even worse is what I've been told by talking to other people in the family.
Right. And was there any discipline or rules outside of blowing up?
Did they have sort of standards that they expected you to maintain?
And if not, other than the yelling stuff or the screaming stuff, what were the punishments?

[14:28] Punishments, yeah, it could be threats, physical.
Yeah, I'd get backhanded. I remember getting thrown against the wall for being out of line once.
How old were you? I was probably 10.
Wow. You were pretty little then still. Yeah, yeah.
Out well i also remember from talking to my brother um when we were left alone i like i have blocks that are you know blacked out and from growing up but he remembers me getting my dad getting mad and throwing toys at me when i was like a baby when my mom would leave and have to do something because i'd be crying um to uh because she was gone so he just never had a could could never control his temper.
Okay. Do you need me to say this as well? I mean, you've been listening for a couple of years.
So when you say that your father could never control his temper, that's not true.

[15:26] Gotcha. You're right. You're right. So give me some situations in which your father had absolutely no problem controlling his temper.
No, you are totally right. And I was going to bring this up.
Yeah, he could control his temper with people his same size, people in the business world, everyone where he had to, where there would be consequences for bad actions.
Yeah, where he might face negative consequences.
He had absolutely no problem.
Him putting a smile on his face and restraining his temper this and the other right and this is what i mean when i say it's not organic right so organic stuff it's like somebody who fakes pain you know like you know they're faking pain because then someone comes and says hey let's play your favorite sport they're like jump up and say hey i'm feeling better right it's instantaneous it's not deep right so okay so yeah it's just a it's a bully tactic and it's deployed against people who can't inflict any negative consequences on him.

Father's manipulation and camouflage of his true nature

[16:27] I mean, my mother was sweet as sugar in company, in public, was a model mother, never erased her voice, was always encouraging and positive and sweet.
And, oh yeah, she knew exactly how to do it. Oh yeah, no, it was great camouflage.
So yeah, I just sort of want to point that out that he was always in perfect control of his temper.

[16:46] Yeah, when it suited him or it was to his advantage, yes, he could be perfectly tempered and treat people right.
Yeah, he's like that shoplifter. I don't know if you've seen these videos.
There's some shoplifter in a store and he's in the process of stealing something and then he looks up and he sees the security camera and then he just puts it back and touches his forehead and strolls off, right? Whoops!
So he's perfectly capable of not stealing something. It's just that.

[17:21] He'll steal it once he sees that he's on camera he puts it back right because it's going to be negative consequences for him because he could be seen yeah correct correct so yeah that's that's just a it's like oh he has no he has no capacity to respect property rights he has no capacity to not steal it's like sure he does uh because he we see it you know and you probably saw it a thousand times or more you know where something that would get you thrown against the wall at home happens in public and he doesn't do anything right yeah yeah it's kind of that mike makes right sort of thing and yeah just i i don't know like i didn't i didn't think i was a bad kid and that i didn't i wasn't doing you know heinous things uh growing up but to you know deal with that or get treated like that i guess and then yeah you kind of see that hypocrisy and you don't have respect for that even as a kid you know you know that that's not not right or that's not how you treat people well i mean you he threw a a 10 year old little boy against the wall right yeah um i feel like your emotions are not but i think i'm more outraged than you are about this so i'm just trying to figure out where you are emotionally oh no no no i it it bothers me quite a bit it's just i try to stay a little calmer like no i know that it's a that that relationship is still has has, uh.

[18:46] Consequences in my life, the, the dealing with that, but no, I, I don't accept it at all.
And it's been kind of a hurdle I've been getting, getting over of not self, you know, blaming myself for it.
Like I used to think that, you know, it was the, the lack of a relationship was somehow my fault or not doing enough.
And I've kind of, I've gotten that point where it's like, no, it's not, it wouldn't have changed if it was me or if it was another son, it's just the the way he was going to act okay so the reason that i'm bringing this up is that this call is about passion in in my mind right i mean whether i'm right or wrong we'll we'll see but when someone comes and says i'm not falling in love what's lacking passion right and so if if passion is lacking it means emotion emotional expression is lacking okay yeah because if you can't express a passion for a woman then she's not going to be very attracted to you because for a woman a man's passion is her security okay for a woman for a woman her her man's passion for her is her security now of course her passion for you is your security so but we're just talking you know male to female so why does a woman need your passion so much.

The Importance of Showing Passion and Emotion

[20:09] Um to know you're interested to know that you're you're there to protect provide care for yeah your passion is your pair bond yeah that's yeah that's the glue so if you can't show passion, and i've been listening sort of very carefully as i always do right but but to your yeah your demeanor your conversation any emotional connection in your voice again you know we can't see each other but i'm pretty good at doing this by my voice and what's not here what's not here is is passion, is emotion, right?
Okay, yeah. And so when I say to you, where are your emotions?
And you say, well, I'm trying to stay calm.
Well, I would suggest that staying calm is the entire fucking problem.
Okay. Because if you stay calm, you stay aloof, you stay distant, you stay emotionally unavailable, women aren't going to fall for you.
They're not going to fall in love with you. They're not going to, I would assume, be that attracted to you.

[21:10] Because your heart is not available for them to feel secure, to feel surrounded by, to feel attached to.
Got it. Yes, yes. Again, I could be wrong, but that's my sort of first thought about when you say, no, no, I'm trying to stay unemotional, so I was trying to stay calm. It's like, no, no, that's the problem, I think.
Well, no, that's a good point. No, because whenever there was any expression of emotion or passion or anything like that, it was met with indifference or a negative or a slight.
Well, it goes all the way back to daycare, right? You didn't want to go to daycare.
I worked in a daycare. No kid wants to go to daycare. They don't want to.
I mean, unless it's total hell at home, in which case they have other big traumas to deal with, right?
Yeah. So you didn't want to go to daycare, and what did your passion achieve for you?
Still going to daycare. Yeah, and you missed your mom, and you would be crying about missing your mom, and what would your dad do? Yeah.
You'd meet punishment. You'd get punishment for that. So passion is punishment.
Okay. I'm having trouble pair bonding.
That's why I called. Yeah, thank you. And we are 15 minutes and done. I'm just kidding.

[22:30] When you're surrounded by punitive assholes, what they do is they use your emotions against you okay right so if if you're vulnerable they know how to hurt you if you're upset uh then they escalate until your emotions are crushed, i mean i would also argue your father doesn't feel much genuine emotion either because bullying is not an emotion it's a dominance tactic it's not a feeling it's not a passion uh so your father probably doesn't have any substantive or general emotions your mother probably doesn't have any substantive or general emotions and therefore when you have passions it reminds them of what they don't have and therefore their goal is not to unlock their own feeling but to lock up yours if that makes sense yeah that's kind of yeah that's how it's always felt to me without being able to put it in in those words but yeah whenever yeah it was just kind of a that that indifference or that just kind of stomping you in your tracks.
And yeah, it's just very deflating. Well, and then you get stuck in this terrible paradox, which is in order to have a, quote, relationship with your parents, you have to not have any genuine or deep emotions.

[23:51] But genuine and deep emotions are foundational to having a relationship.
So you're supposed to love your parents, but love is a genuine and deep emotion.
And if your parents punish you for having genuine and deep emotions, then you have to, in order to maintain your security, you have to destroy it.
Like, in order to maintain your security as a child, you have to destroy that which will give you security as an adult, which is deep and genuine emotions.
You have to destroy your adult capacity to pair bond in order to retain the provision of resources and food, shelter, whatever it is, from your parents.
And so it's a pretty brutal process to go through. And it seems to me that it would make sense exactly as to where you are in your life at the moment.

The Paradox of Emotions in Parental Relationships

[24:38] Okay. Yeah. No, that sounds dead on. Yeah.

[24:43] All right. So what were your teen years like in this environment?
And I guess when you began to be drawn towards girls?

[24:51] Teen years, I was, I grew up, it was again, kind of a lot of just parents not being around a lot of older brothers, a lot of older kids.
And it kind of felt like Lord of the Flies. um uh in terms of uh peers you know a lot of just same same thing kind of bully dynamics with older kids um not a lot of adult supervision um so i kind of to get away from that i tended to do kind of more uh solo endeavors and you know i got into bike riding lifting weights that sort of thing and was your brother i guess like a lot of older brothers like hey they're my friends go find your own friends and stop bothering me and get out and you know uh yeah very similar like what he was yeah it was kind of it seemed like his friends took priority back then um you know you know the the whole being cool and and all that and there was a lot of looking back just not a lot of of good kids that you know they just did a lot of hooligan type type stuff oh you mean you're a brother's friends yeah yeah right somewhere okay but most yeah they're you know somewhere on the level they just again it was similar like they didn't they were a good five years older than me and you know that some of them i'd get hit by them like.

[26:15] You know picking on me because i was smaller when i was bigger for my age but you know they still had the the you know five to seven years uh age advantage oh yeah it's like a different species like 12 to 17 yeah it's a different thing yeah so i got in that kind of you had to outrun or outgun and it was just a lot of outrunning and just you know again knowing who to stay away from that you know you could you know um that were just yes bullies i guess for lack of a better word and did you have any affection or tenderness or or protection, or that from your brother?

[26:50] At that age, no, not really. No, he was very similar to my dad in terms of just that real hot-headedness.
And was he somebody who enjoyed teasing or messing with you, or was it mostly just you're in the way of me being cool with my friends?
Kind of in the way, and then occasionally we'd butt heads and get in a physical altercation, but he was just a lot bigger and stronger, so I didn't really stand a chance back then.

[27:26] Right, okay. And girls? uh girls i uh hung out with in what junior high and high school dated um i had a long-term relationship in in college but we ended up going to different schools and ended up uh breaking up uh in grad school kind of went our separate ways in life um there because the distance and just kind of grew apart.

Long-Term Relationship and Career Prioritization

[27:57] How long was that relationship? That was six years.
Wow. Okay. So tell me about that. Why didn't you guys get married?
Yeah. No, you should or shouldn't have. I'm just curious about the arc.
I think it was, we put school and careers ahead of the relationship and she ended up wanting to do something thing in a, in a different field and the field I got into, um, they just didn't, didn't align.
So they were, we're just going in different directions career wise.
And then back then, I think we both put the career ahead of the relationship.

[28:38] Okay. That doesn't answer why you put the career ahead of the relationship.
It's an explanation without a causality, if that makes sense. Oh, gotcha.
Why did the volcano erupt? Well, lava came out of it. It's like, yes, that's what happened, but why?
Yeah well i'd say i was focused on on when i was younger more into get developing a career and getting into it into an industry and i think that became more of my focus than the actual relationship and i don't say you just i ask you for a detailed explanation and you just repeat what you said i'm sorry well you know we uh we put careers above relationships well why well i put career above relationships is like uh yes but why why why was uh why why would you, why would you put that priority up you know i thought about that and i i i, i don't know specifically why i think it was just to get, yeah established uh financially and and uh the career going but i maybe just in that That part of my life, I wasn't as focused on developing a healthy relationship.

[29:59] It's kind of a... Right. So now, instead of telling me why you prioritize other things, you're now telling me what you prioritize.
And it's fine if you don't know. That's fine, right? But let's at least sit in that space of you don't know why you didn't prioritize that relationship, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I'd say for me, my priority wasn't family and kids.
No, no, I didn't say any of that. I said the relationship.
Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Okay, we'll go with I don't know at this point.
And how long did it take to unravel, and how did it end?

[30:36] It took to unravel. We were separated when we were going to different schools, so it ended.
It was amicable, and it wasn't hostile or anything like that. It was terrible.
I mean, so it ended kind of blandly.
Yeah, it kind of went out with a whimper, yeah. Yeah, no one's heart got broken.
Nobody was on their knees sobbing and crying for things to continue.
Nobody threw their passion into the ring or anything. It's just like, well, this really doesn't make an Excel spreadsheet-type optimal calculation for us to continue, so shake hands and part.
Yeah, it sounds like that, but no, I had the broken heart and the feelings and the passion.
Ah, okay, okay, so good. So we got some real emotion here. Fantastic. Okay.
So, not fantastic that it's broken heart, but fantastic that it's emotion. All right.

Ultimatums and Unrequited Love

[31:34] Yes, I had no clue. Sorry, was it she who wanted to end it? Thank you.
Uh, yes. Okay. And how did you, so you wanted it obviously to keep going and what did you do to try and keep it going?

[31:48] I tried to, I was looking at a means to, um, get my career and hers in the same location, but I, I, she had an old, it was basically a lot of ultimatums that, that, um, needed needed to be met that were kind of, that were possible to do after a certain point or not impossible, but just weren't, weren't going to work out.
I'm sorry. It's quite the word salad. So she had ultimatums towards you.
Yeah. Sorry. What were those ultimatums? Where we were going to live, what she was going to do.
And she was going to basically turned into, she was going to do what she was going to do. And I had to fit in with that.
And there was no no compromise or a way to make it yeah compromise or make it work it was kind of yeah like an ultimatum so she wanted you to move where she was and she wanted you to find a job at the town she was at and and is that the thing yes yes so I would assume tell me if I'm wrong of course You know that that's her giving you these ultimatums made you feel pretty unloved, right? Yes. Yes.

[33:10] If my wife had to move to the Arctic, do you know what I would do?
Huh? What would I do? You'd move there. I'd move to the Arctic.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
I'm a big one for like, just declare your passions and find a way to make it work. And, you know, whatever you need to do, you do.

[33:34] So she gave you all these ultimatums. Do you think that the ultimatums were unconsciously designed to drive you away? Or do you think if you had, like, in other words, if you had fulfilled them, would she have found some other problem?
Or do you think they were genuine? Like, if you do this, you've slain the dragon, you've proven your love, and we can get it on?
I think they were, yeah, they were put together to promote the breakup, because I think she eventually was seeing somebody else, you know, towards the end of the relationship.
So I think that was... Were you going to drop that in the mix at any time?
Or were you just waiting for me to... well i didn't yeah it it was amicable but she was cheating on me, well yeah i think but i found that out later you know at the time i didn't well so what the hell does that matter that's even worse no you're right no it sucked it did suck um and yeah what's that happened that was what i knew it was like you know none of that meeting all that stuff that was just those were just barriers put up but the decision so holy shit hang on so jesus so she She starts dating some other guy.
She's sleeping with some other guy, we assume.
And she doesn't tell you. But what she does is she creates ultimatums that are very tough to enact with no intention of continuing the relationship so that you take the blame for things not working.

[34:52] Yeah. What a uber bitch move that is, eh?
Yeah, and I think that's what I felt. That's what I felt at the time.
So, yeah, that's why it was like, yeah, it was over.
Over oh so i didn't man chase or pursue or anything it was you know the writing was on the wall and so you guys were going out for six years when did she get the himbo i don't know sometime when you know we were both in grad school and i i know that i think they ended up getting married and whatnot um but it was just something i kind of just moved on from i didn't want to dwell on it too much it was the best oh yeah so yeah avoiding passion because that's that's been been working out really well so avoid the anger avoid the upset avoid the passion and there'd be emotionally unavailable for the next woman so i would suggest let's not let's not do that oh let's not let's try to not do that right did you ever like when did you find out that she was cheating on you.

[35:52] I just found out that she, she would, they were dating cause they were in the same department, but I was, I was living in another town, so I didn't, I didn't pursue it any further.
I just, cause kind of like, you know, it was, it was done.
I didn't want to, you know, um, uh, have any, any, any issues asking more questions.
You know the break did you uh do you have any q-tips in the house just out of curiosity, yes good okay i want you to grab them and clean your ears because you keep not answering my question my friend okay sorry sorry when did you find out she was cheating on you, uh it was after the breakup i i know i know you told me that when did you find out just Just give me an answer or tell me you're not going to.

[36:42] A few months afterwards. Okay, a few months afterwards, you found out that she'd been cheating on you, but you don't know for how long?
Yeah, I didn't know at all. I couldn't tell you a time frame.
I didn't have a mutual friend to...
But how do you know that they got together?

[37:02] Uh before you broke up uh because she they she was going to parties and and doing other things and and with that group of with the group of people that she was in school with so i didn't have uh evidence but she was like with that guy basically right after we were we were done so she was hanging around with him and his group yeah and then she was like right with him when you were were done yes yes but i don't have any like verification of the time frame of when they met or anything right and of course if you were to call her up after you break up and say you know i can't believe you're with this guy she would say of course well i wasn't and how dare you accuse me and right that's because you got no yeah i didn't want to deal with the you know stop you know you're a stalker it's none of your business blah blah blah it was it was done it was like you know there's nothing to to the answers wouldn't change the outcome well if it's any consolation if she cheated on you and married the guy, the marriage will suck.
Okay. Because there's no trust, right? If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you, right? That's the basic rule. You don't date a girl with overlap.
You don't overlap with a boyfriend. You don't because you can't trust her.

[38:15] Okay, gotcha, gotcha. So yeah, their marriage will suck and so on, right? So that's...
And even if she was keeping him waiting in the wings, right?
Even if she was like, well, no, no, we can't date because I've got this existing relationship and then she provokes a breakup from you and then only then does she quote start dating him if she's got a guy waiting in the wings that she's planning to date after the end of your relationship that's still cheating even if she hasn't kissed him or slept with him or even held his hand that's still cheating okay that's that's what i think probably was what happened that's more most likely yes yeah it's still cheating because she's lying to you, She is attracted to someone else She's not telling you She's chosen to end the relationship But she's not being honest and direct So that's cheating Okay.

Relationship starts to fade during grad school.

[39:11] When in the I guess it was college to grad school Like four and two Yeah When did the relationship start to fade?
I don't know I think it was during grad school.
It was the first couple years or the year, year and a half into grad school.
Oh, so it was really only bad for like the last six months?

[39:36] It's a year. Last year, okay. And as things began to fade or it began to fall apart, what was your goal or your plan?
Or were you just sort of like you're watching the sand go through the hourglass without wanting to turn it over? Like, oh, I guess we'll just watch this play out? Or did you want to keep it or what?
I wanted to keep it, but yeah, I got involved with my career.
And at that time, I think I was just more focused on career rather than the relationship of trying to fix it.
I felt like I was moving to fix it, but it felt like it wasn't fixable at that point.
It was kind of, like I said, you're starting to get more and more excuses and barriers and not seeing each other enough.

[40:22] And it was just slowly fading away. What was your emotional state?
It slowly fades away i guess you had a a sense of hopelessness about it is that right yeah i was frustrated because you was working on a on a on a degree and then that was it was it was falling apart at the same time and it was kind of juggling i do i finish this this degree or the relationship, and i decided to get the degree and get the career going um more so than try to fix things things um as well but it wasn't going to happen i think there's just too much distance and time between us right now i'll make the case from her standpoint or rather her egg standpoint.

[41:08] Which is look if this is for your future right if you date a woman of childbearing age you date her for a couple of years and you don't put a ring on her finger she should dump your ass yes i agree i see that now yeah so now she should do it more honestly she should do it more directly and of course she should bring up like I want you to I want to get married I want to have kids or at least look there look in that way or whatever or I don't want to have kids or whatever but but, Yeah, I mean, as far as if she was calling me up and she said, you know, well, this is Guy. We've been going out for five years.
He's not made any move towards marrying me. He doesn't seem to be that interested.
We're in separate cities.
You know, I'm turning 32 or whatever. Well, what I tell her to do.

[41:50] Yeah, I'd say it's time to move on. And I agree with that.
That well you know state your deeds and see if you can get your needs met in the relationship but if you want to get married and have kids and this guy won't put a ring on your finger time's ticking away right and at the time that that you have that she doesn't right, correct yeah and i think that was yeah yep i agree so why didn't you propose now don't tell me it's because you were focused on your career because we've already gotten that but why why Why didn't you propose?
Yeah, at the time, it wasn't as high a priority. Why wasn't it as high a priority?
Lack of passion? Just not wanting the same relationship that my folks had?
Did you have the same relationship that your folks had? Doesn't sound like it.
No, no. It sounds like you confused hysteria with passion and then had a dead heart relationship, so to speak, right? Okay, gotcha. Yes.

The Lack of Passion and Vulnerability in the Relationship

[42:59] And why do you think she, I wouldn't say put up with it, but why do you think she kept it going so long and then just kind of eased out with this play?
I think that's a good question. I think she just probably, like you said, kind of the sands of time.
She wasn't going to wait along anymore. Probably wanted to start a family.
And and but it's like yeah we did we never sat down and talked about that about the family and and did you talk about marriage and kids or anything yeah we did we we had talked about that in the past but again it just never um it just faded out because like i said like it wasn't it wasn't a priority um now do you think if she had you know at year four or maybe even year five when things started to go south do you think if she had showed up at your doorstep in tears like i love you and please let's make this work i i'll give up my job and let's get married and you know.

[44:03] And you know threw herself into your arms i mean how would you have responded to that do you think, yeah that would have been yeah like the passion would shown your yeah that the interest and the priority was the relationship and i yeah that would make it uh the stronger bond or showing that you make yourself she can't live without you right i mean that's the the point the bond is like my life is is terrible without you so you're central to my happiness like i need you like i need oxygen and like that's that's the bond right correct okay so she uh didn't do anything like that did she ever express vulnerability attachment need desire thirst no not really Not a whole lot.
It was kind of the independent woman, her career-oriented focus.
Right. Okay. And did you ever, did that ever cross your mind that sort of that declaration of passion or vulnerability or need might help?
Yes. Yeah. It just, I don't think it was there on either side.

[45:19] Sorry, what do you mean it wasn't there? I mean, did you not feel passion for the woman in general?
No, I did, but maybe the – I'd say – I think you're right.
It'd be more the ability to express it, at least on my end. Yeah, like you said, the ability to express those emotions has always been difficult for me in general.

[45:38] Okay. Was grad school difficult? It was a lot of work, yes.
Yeah, it's kind of tough, right? I mean, it's going to be kind of tough.
So don't give me this fainting couch Victorian lady, well, it was difficult, so I just couldn't do it. but you've probably done about a billion difficult things in your life, right?
Yes, I have. I don't shy away from difficult things.
Okay, so I'm sure that you knew that a declaration of passion, a declaration of need, a declaration of hunger and commitment and bonding and so on, that that kind of declaration, if she was receptive to it, would have cemented the relationship.
Relationship, and if she wasn't receptive to it, it would have ended things with honor, right?
In other words, you declare you passionately want this girl, and you love her, and she's everything to you, and if she just shrugs and turns away, then it's like, okay, well, I acquitted myself with honor.
I spoke the truth, and I put my heart out there, and if she rejects it, well, that's her choice, but at least I did the honest and right thing.
Correct. Yeah. Yeah, I see that now, being older, but at the time, yeah, I couldn't relate to this as much, but now I understand. No, sorry.
When I said, did you ever think of having the speech of passion or whatever, did you think of that at the time? Oh, at the time?

[47:08] Yeah, I remember having that discussion with her, but she was already— I'm sorry, discussion?

[47:17] I'm talking about a cri de coeur, a cry of the heart, and you're like, well, let's have a discussion.
That's not how IQs work. Okay, well, I did have that. No, you're right.
I'm remembering, I'm looking, or it's been a few years. But yes, I did have that, and it didn't go well.
She had already, you know, her mind was already made up, and it was, you know, I got the door slammed, and here's your thing.
Oh, did she literally, like, slam the door, or is that an analogy? Yeah, yeah.
Shut the door, locked it. And that's why I was like, you know, there's no, you know, crime of passion.
It's like you put your heart out there and that happens. You can't, you know, you got to walk away.
And when in the relationship was that? That was when I knew it was over.

The Cry of Passion and the End of the Relationship

[48:00] Oh, okay. So after you broke up, you gave it the cry of passion.
Well no when when we were when i thought it was still salvageable i mean i put it out there and then it yeah it that was the response and i think that was when i thought she was already you know seeing somebody that she was going to school with kind of put what did what did she say when you, do you remember what you said more or less and what she said or is it lost to the mists of time it's kind of lost in time but i did i put it out there and it was trying to save save it but it was I got the kind of too little, too late. If you were interested, you would have done something sooner.
And, you know, I'm moving on. And when did you first think of doing that?

[48:42] Um, well, I was making arrangements to looking at ways to get work and jobs and things that were going to be closer, but the more kind of these, these barriers came up in conversation to things.
I just thought that it was just that they were always going to find something wrong that wasn't going to make it work.
Just seemed like that's kind of how, how it slowly ended.

[49:09] So just a way to not be direct about it. on her end right as it's kind of slowly going away right okay yeah i mean a woman is going to look for commitment and if she can't find it from you she's going to find it from someone else if correct because she says she's now married or whatever right and again it's not a very honorable way to get there but that's that's what's going to happen right yeah yeah it happens i don't yeah Yeah, I'm not, like I said, that's been years ago.
Yeah, I've been moving on from it.
Okay. Now, so this is, was that late 20s, early 30s?

[49:48] Yeah, mid-20s, late 20s, yeah. Oh, mid-20s. Okay, sorry.
Yeah, it'd be mid-20s. Okay, so mid-20s, and what happened then for you in dating?
I dated, I started working. in uh the field i got into involved a lot of travel working in remote areas so i tried dating but i i had long work stints so i was never able to do a long lasting relationship so i kind of focused on work um heavily during that time it's like my late late 20s early 30s um would date but but was never in a town of any population or a city to have there for enough time to have a relationship or an established relationship.
Yeah, like Mr. Geology or whatever, right? Okay. And then?

[50:44] And then I actually got into another relationship. This would be early 30s, mid 30s, um with a gal when i uh had a more uh or had a job that involved less travel, and that yeah that one didn't pan out you had the job that had less travel yeah yeah and yeah so you said that didn't pan out what happened yeah well that happened it was a mistake of i dated a single mother uh had a couple children and um Um, ended up living together for probably less than a year.
And, uh, it, yeah. Wow. You worked in with the kids and everything.
Yes. Yes. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
It was a big leap. How pretty was she? I thought she was attractive. Yeah.
I'd say probably an eight. And how many kids?
Two kids. Same dad? Same dad, yeah. And what was he like?
He was out of the picture. they did not get along.

[52:07] Very well they'd see him every other weekend, but it was it wasn't out of the picture right I mean for me my dad moving to Africa that's out of the picture no no no he wasn't out of the picture no no no he was yeah they would still exchange the custody every other weekend, between the two of them and I got along with them but it you know was not a good situation, And did you get close with the kids?
Yeah, I ended up closer with the kids than her towards the end.
And it just became one of those situations where actually the way she treated her kids reminded me of how I was treated as a kid.
And I try to point that out, like you can't bully these kids, but you're not the father, so you really have no say.
You're just meet with, you know, you're met with. Sorry, what do you mean you really have no say? Do you mean legally?
Well, you're treated like you don't have say because from her, I should say, in our relationship, when I would point that out, it was basically, you know, don't tell me how to raise my kids.
Wow. Yeah. Was she working?
She was working, yes. And did you pay half the bills?
Yes. Right. So that's why you get to tell her how to raise her kids.
So I'm paying half the bills. Yes.

Living with a Bully and the Crumbling Relationship

[53:30] Yeah, you're taking you're taking half my money. So I get to say it how you raise the kids because I live in the house with the kids.
Correct. You know, like, I mean, to take an extreme example, if you're paying for half a house, and your roommate has a dog that, you know, craps on your bed, Amber Heard style, and you say, Hey, you got to figure out you got to toilet train your dog.
And that person says, Don't tell me how to raise my dog.
And it's like, Well, no, I kind of have to because he keeps shitting on my bed, right?
Uh-huh yeah all right okay so she was kind of like a bully same yes very much a bully and so what the hell were you doing there that's where i knew i had made a mistake and i yeah was, okay knowing you've made a mistake it's not an explanation of why, a bad choice of of picking a a partner it was a bad bad yeah saying saying you've made a bad had choice is also not saying why you were there.
Why I was there. Yeah. Why were you there?
I was there. Cause I thought I was wanting to be in a, in a committed relationship with a, with a partner, with a, with a wife.
That doesn't explain why you're with a single mother who bullies her children and disrespects you.

[54:47] Gotcha. I'd say, yeah, I didn't have the, uh, uh, was lacking self-confidence or assertiveness to, uh, uh get what i wanted in life or the the relationship i deserved was kind of i guess looking back kind of just selling myself short okay and so how did things how did things end there um it ended with i moved out and oh no sorry that's the i i get that you moved out that's a given right but how did things end in terms of the decay and emotionally and how did Did the breakup happen at all? It was, uh, it was bad.
It was, it was, it was not amicable.
It was, yeah, there was a lot of anger.
I was blamed for, for everything. It was my fault. Uh, you were supposed to save us. You didn't save us.
Um, it just, everything that she told about her ex, I was the new ex.
So I got the, the brunt of, you know, just being a terrible person, telling the kids I was terrible.

[55:51] And, um, yeah, that, that's. Oh, so she bullied the kids and then weaponized them against you.
Weaponized them against me, correct. So I was this terrible person.
So, I mean, this really was damaging to the kids, right, overall?
It was, yes, yes. Wow, that's a heavy thing to hang on your conscience, man. I'm sorry about that.
Yeah, no, I didn't like it at all. I still miss the kids.
You know, it was just a tough – it wasn't good for anybody.
And I didn't well yeah but you and the mom had choices the kids didn't right correct yeah and I feel bad about that and guilty about that causing problem yeah being a negative well and it's you know just another I mean more ugly side to their mom and another male who is booted out of the house or runs out of the house or whatever right yes yes and so but what was it that was going wrong that you wanted to start to end things.

Ending the Relationship due to Bullying and Feeling Like an Outsider

[56:47] I, you started, it was the kind of the, the bullying aspect.
And it was also like, you were just kind of a placeholder. You or the kids or both?
Uh, it'd be both. Like you were, I was treated kind of just like as a placeholder as not, um, uh, as just never really felt like a part of the, the family structure.
And I don't know if I was responsible for that or if it was both, but just your, just Just never really felt the connection or being a part of it. Yeah, you're the outsider.
You're like the ATM and the bed warmer and all, right? But not really.
Yeah, you're just wherever you went, that's what you were, like in every situation.
And it just, yeah, it's a pretty draining feeling.

[57:38] And how, so you were living together for a year. How long were you together before that?
Uh it was a good three years three and a half so you were together with her for three and a half and then you moved in for the last year yeah holy crap so it's like half these kids childhood almost right uh yes ouch and i i went to we went to counseling and i again i i i this i did show, wanting to fix things, wanting to get things right, go to counseling and work things out.
But this one was for sure, she was not going to budge or want to work through anything.
Even when we went to counseling, the counselor kind of pulled me aside after a couple meetings and was like, she's not going to change.

[58:33] She won't admit any faults, any wrongs, anything. It was just, everything was my fault.
Yeah. And that's a hole with no bottom. Right. Okay. So, so the second time you get false ultimatums, right. So, okay.
Yeah. And these were, these were, yeah, very much ultimatums, very much. Yeah.
Yeah. Moving in that direction. And I felt like I, I, I did put, put the, the, the passion was there, but it was all, it was a losing, that was a losing cause.
And like I said, the kids, I think, you know, they're the ones that lost the most or, you know, just putting people, putting them through a bad situation.
That's something I don't not proud of.
And did anyone warn you about this situation, your dad or friends or your brother or anything?
They everyone was like there at the time.
And then after the fact, it was, you know, they, you know, told you not to do that. But I never got a whole lot of no or like caution or warnings about it from from family.
But not a whole lot of or none that you can remember. They were supportive of it, you know, of the relationship.

Blaming myself for bad decisions in relationships

[59:52] But then claimed that they weren't later, right? Yeah, exactly.
And then it was like, you know, you're a dummy for putting yourself in that.
And yeah, kind of the blaming me for that, which I guess I deserve that. That was my decision.
No, but I mean, people who claim to care about you should help you make good decisions, right?
Otherwise, you know, they should be watching your back, right?
They should, you know, we all get blinded by lust or whatever it is, right?
Men and women and men, I think, a little bit more. And we need people to, you know, punch us in the nads and help us make better decisions, right?
Yeah, yeah. I'd say, yeah, you do get blinded by lust. I mean, for me, it was like, okay, well, if everything's on me and I'm responsible for everything and nobody owes me any good advice, what the hell are these relationships for?
Right? I mean, it's just for what, letting me walk into traffic when, or letting me walk into some invisible barrier that everyone else can see, but I can't, and then blaming me for it.
It's like, we need other people to view what we're doing and give us feedback.
And if people don't care about us enough to try and keep us out of bad situations, what the hell is the relationship for?
What does it even mean to have that relationship?

[1:01:14] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do remember like after the fact, it was my, my mom telling me that, well, your father, you know, knew that was a bad from the get go, but he never, never talked to me or told me anything. Oh yeah.
That's just, that's just 2020 hindsight bullshit. That's, you know, and everyone's like, oh, you should have sold at the top. And it's like, yo, thanks man.
You know, it's, it's kind of like if you're at the beach with a friend and, and you think you've, you put all the sunscreen on your back and then you start to get real tomato lobster back. Right. And.
And your friend doesn't say anything, right? And like, you can't see your own back and it's just getting redder and redder.
And then by the nighttime, it's like your skin is peeling and cracking and it's agony, you know, all of that.
And you say to a friend, Jesus, man, why didn't you tell me?
And he's like, hey, man, you're responsible for putting your own sunscreen on.
And it's like, I know that, but I can't see my own back. And if my back was getting red, why didn't you tell me?
Hey, don't blame me for your inability to take care of yourself on the beach.
You know that kind of stuff right yes yeah and it's like okay well then you're not really a friend of mine if it's too much effort for you to say hey man i think your back's getting burnt.

[1:02:25] You've got to slap some on. Let me put some sunscreen on for you or whatever, right?
Or there's this little meme video of somebody with a totally red back and somebody's got sunscreen on their hand.
They just whack it down. You know, it's like, ah, right?
So, yeah, I remember going dirt biking with a friend of mine in February or something when I was in my early teens.
And he had these big giant hockey gloves. It's totally warm.
I didn't have any gloves because, you know, my family was broke and we didn't have any gloves. gloves.
And, you know, I, my hands were like turning into these frozen claws as you're dirt biking around.

[1:03:00] And I didn't say, I want your gloves.
I just like, can I warm my hands up in your gloves? Like, let me just take your gloves for a couple of minutes, just warm them up and then we'll keep going.
And he's like, well, where are your gloves, man? Where are your gloves?
And it's like, okay, so you're just a douchebag. Like, okay, I think I will not do this again.

[1:03:17] Because, um, if it's, if it's, if it's just the worst thing in the world for you to lend me your gloves for a couple minutes to warm up my frozen hands uh then why how could how could this possibly fall into the category of friendship right okay yeah so yeah if they don't care about you enough to say oh you know you got to think this through man there's kids involved and you you know um, and and you don't even know exactly what happened with her ex i assume that she blamed her ex right for everything yeah she blamed him for everything and and and having a a drinking problem um which uh yeah he he did but but i learned later is that she she hid that from me the she drank just the same and that was another issue we had as i was saying you can't you know do this and and drink especially in front of the kids and again it was just well and drinkers never admit fault that's It's part of alcoholism. Well, most addiction. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, the thing too, like if just so you to sort of move the needle, right?
So if you were my friend and you were getting involved in a relationship like this, you know, I would say, okay, so...

[1:04:31] Did she like, what was the problem? Oh, her ex was just terrible.
Right. It's like, okay. So she doesn't take any responsibility in the breakup of her marriage.
And she'd be like, no, no, it was all her ex's fault. It's like, I would say, well, then that's going to be you at some point in the future. Right.
And if you, and here's the thing, if you were still blinded by lust, right.
If you, and I understand, look, I'm, I'm a big fan of lust.
You know, I'm, I'm talking about passion. you should feel safe getting lustful for a new girlfriend because you should have your friends watching your back.
So if you said, no, no, no, she's changed or she's better or whatever, whatever, right?

[1:05:10] Well, it'd be pretty easy, right? So what I would do is I would say to you guys, come over for dinner, right? Love to cook you guys a meal.
But just, you know, I want to get to know your girlfriend. So, you know, have a babysitter for the kids or whatever, right?
And then she'd come over, right?
And then i would ask her questions about her ex you know i could do this in a nice way over the course of the conversation nothing hostile like what the hell happened with your marriage but oh yeah so you know is the dad still in the picture and gosh you know that's pretty rough uh how did that go and you know this kind of stuff right and she'd start blaming him right yes and i'd say well but but you chose him right yeah right and oh well he hid everything from me and it's like well Well, but he kind of hid everything from you forever, right?
You dated him, you got engaged, you got married, you decided to have a couple of kids with him, right?
So, I mean, it can't all be him, right? I mean, you chose him, right?

[1:06:09] And then she would get more and more angry, right? Yep.
Right? And it wouldn't be like I would provoke her because I wouldn't be in there trying to needle her, but I would just ask her reasonable questions until she lost her shit, right?
Yeah. Now then, I would say, and then I would say to you, okay, so she can't handle any reasonable questions without being aggressive.
And because I've known you for a long time, I know you were bullied as a kid, so you may not be able to see bullies very well because you were raised by bullies.
But this is a very bad idea. And, you know, I think we've got the evidence, right?
Now, if after that, you decided to pursue the relationship, my conscience would be clear.
You know and what is it what does it cost it cost me uh a meal maybe a couple of plates thrown against the wall but it doesn't it cost me an evening but you know if i care about you as a friend which i would then it's a very small price to pay you know it's it's i've had people in my life even over the last you know not not a huge amount of time i say i think i think you're not making really good dating decisions right so uh you know have a call and talk for an hour or two and sort of explain why and so on, right? Yeah. And...

[1:07:23] If they continue, okay, at least I said my piece and my conscience is clear.
But if nobody cares enough to sit down with you and, you know, hey, you know, how's it going and what's she like and what happened with her ex, right?
I mean, when you date a single mother, you know that you are dating one half of a colossal screw-up in a family, right?
Yeah, yeah. And so, okay, if there's been a colossal screw-up in the family, that's about the worst thing is to have a bunch of kids and then bust up a family, right?

The Warning Flag: Lack of Caring Questions

[1:08:02] So there's a big warning flag there, and maybe she's done a bunch of therapy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
But if nobody cares about you enough to sit down for an hour or two, right?
I mean, we've been talking for an hour here, and you know i'm not saying everyone would necessarily have the same kind of skill or whatever it is that that i bring to these things but you know just some basic caring questions right some basic self-knowledge stuff right it's okay who does she blame for the breakup okay, well if it's all the uh ex's fault then she doesn't take any responsibility which means that she's never going to change right okay yeah so that's that's again this is not super complicated nobody's asking you to you know analyze someone's dream that you don't even even know right i mean this is not super complicated right uh you know what happened to the most important relationship in her life was with her child's father what happened with that oh uh yeah it broke up and she says it's all his fault it's like well that's that's not good right.

[1:09:02] And but of course you know for your parents to um for your parents to say that she doesn't change or she won't change and she just blames others would be well they you understand why they probably can't say that at all because that would be to look in the mirror and see themselves who they really are right okay yeah i see what you're saying so this is i mean the problem with keeping dysfunctional people around or to the point where you know you were discussing the breakup with your family the problem with keeping dysfunctional people around is they keep pushing you into the the arms of dysfunctional people, right?
Because they can't protect you because they harmed you, right?
We never expect a torturer to turn into our savior, right? Mm-hmm.

[1:09:55] You know, a friend, you know, if you're set upon by some street gang, your friend might help you, right?
Might work to try and help you and fight your way out or whatever, right?
But if you're being mugged and some street gang sets upon you, the mugger's not going to take your side, right? He's probably going to join in the street gang, right?
Yeah. So you just need people around you in this life. You need people in this life who are going to watch your back.
And the people who've harmed you and have never apologized, never made restitution, never admitted fault, not only will they be unable to protect you but they will enable your further harm okay.

[1:10:34] Because they can't admit that they ever hurt you which means they can't do anything to protect you from being hurt, well yeah you know like if you and I were in a cave a hundred feet underground, and I said to you hey man can you Could you sunscreen me up? What would you say?

[1:10:59] Yeah. Or in a cave, sorry. Yeah, in a cave, 100 feet down under the ground.
Well, yeah, you wouldn't need that. Right.
There's no UV rays down here, man. Don't worry about it, right?
Don't worry, we're good. Yeah, we're good, right? So if I, you know, I'm not going to try and protect you if I can't conceive that you are going to be in any harm or you with me.
So, yeah, people who've harmed you and who won't admit it can't ever protect you from harm. In fact, they're likely to end up, if they've harmed you, right? This is the basic thing, right?
If people have harmed you, they wanted to, right?
They want to, like, this is just praxeological, right? Whatever people do, they prefer.

[1:11:39] Right? If somebody goes to vacation in Hawaii, where do they want to go to vacation?
Hawaii. How do we know? They went to Hawaii, right? That's the best vacation they can get in their price range.
If somebody pays a quarter million dollars to fly above the atmosphere, then what do they really want to do?
Well, they really want to do that. We know that because they did it, right?
So if somebody has hurt you, and I don't mean like inadvertently, you know, like I throw a Frisbee and the wind takes it and it just kind of cracks you on the head.
I'm like, it's not even my fault really, but you know, I'm really sorry.
And, you know, let's not throw the first V around anymore because it's clearly too windy, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
Okay, yeah. So, if...

Obvious and repeated hurt without apology

[1:12:31] Somebody hurts you repeatedly and in ways that are obvious hurt, right?

[1:12:42] Like, there's nobody who would say that screaming at a child isn't frightening for the child, right?
That bullying a child or getting enraged at a child and, you know, threatening the child.
And there's nobody who would say that throwing a 10-year-old boy against the wall is not scary and hurtful to that boy, right? This is obvious stuff, right? Yeah.
Okay, so it's just life 101, right? And I hate to say life 101 like you don't know, right?
But it's just, there's a lot of confusion and clouds around this stuff.
So anyone who hurts you repeatedly and obviously and doesn't apologize, likes it. They like hurting you.
They like hurting you. Yeah. I mean, and we know that because they keep doing it, right? Whatever people keep doing, they like.
You say, ah, yes, well, it could be an addiction. It's like, well, yes, it could be an addiction.
And the addict likes taking the drug over whatever else it might be, right? They prefer, or you could say prefer, whatever it is, right? Whether it's like or prefer.

[1:13:45] But whoever hurts you, obviously and repeatedly, and never admits fault, and never takes therapy, and never makes restitution, and never promises to never do it again, right?
Whoever hurts you repeatedly prefers to hurt you repeatedly.
And so people in your life who prefer to hurt you repeatedly of course they can't keep you safe and if they prefer to hurt you repeatedly then clearly they prefer it when you get hurt.

[1:14:15] So if you look at the pattern of your parents here, right? Maybe your brother too. Let's talk about your parents, right?
Okay. So they don't tell you that you're going into a situation where for sure you're going to get your heart broken, right?
It's going to be an ugly mess, right? So they don't tell you that.
Why? Because they prefer that you get hurt.
Now then, when you break up, instead of comforting you, what do they say?
Aha, told you so. Yeah, it's always that way. Right. So why do they say that?
It's just more, it's kicking you when you're down. Yeah, because then they get to hurt you again.
Yeah. So they prefer anybody, and this is so important to get into your skin, anybody who repeatedly hurts you in obvious ways and never apologizes prefers that you get hurt.
And then having that person in your life will get you hurt. Okay.

[1:15:11] And they don't care who's... needs, they sacrifice in order to hurt you.
And it's kind of incomprehensible to me.
But it's a very real phenomenon. I don't know if it's sadism, I don't know if it's just abstract cruelty, I don't know, whatever it is.
And the psychological origins and source of it is not particularly relevant, right?
We don't need to know the chemistry of why a lion is hungry to climb a tree when it chases us, right? Yeah.

Lack of safety and comfort from parents

[1:15:41] Just know to get out of that situation. Right.
So when you think back on your life, have your parents ever worked to keep you safe or give you comfort?

[1:16:00] Yeah, it's, say, large, outside of providing, you know, shelter, food. No, that's a legal requirement.
That's like saying that the gulag wants to keep you safe because, you know, the gulag prisoner gets to see a doctor when he's cut himself, right?
It's like, no, they just, that's their obligation, right? So that doesn't count.
No, that's true. True. No, and I think that's why I've always found myself finding older people as mentors and stuff, because I just never got, I never had that from, never got that from my parents.
Right. So I was always, yeah, drawn to learning from older people.
Okay, so that's great. That's a wonderful distraction about your mentors, but let's get back to the core.
Okay, yeah. Can you think of a time where your parents have worked to keep you safe, to prevent disaster, or give you comfort, genuine comfort, should disaster strike?

[1:16:56] No, I don't think it's been reciprocated my way. When I was in need of something, I kind of was like, no, that I wouldn't.
Yeah, if I asked my dad for something, if I needed help with something, it wouldn't come.
I don't think that assistance would ever be there. Okay, that's not what I asked, though.
You are a slippery fellow, my friend.
You are very oblique. It's like the question goes in, and it's like that prism on the front cover of Dark Side of the Moon.
Like a single question light comes in, and it gets sprayed in a rainbow in 12 different directions, right? Okay, I'm trying.
Because I didn't ask if they gave you help.
Yeah. They said, did they work to prevent you from being hurt and or give you genuine comfort when hurt arose?
No, they did not. No, you're right. They did not. So do you know why your father bullied you?
Was it reliving what happened to him as a child? No. No?
I don't know. Oh, to be like jealousy based? I don't know. There's always seemed to...

[1:18:10] No, listen, you could read of things that happened to you as a child without bullying others.
I've had dreams about things that happened to me as a child.
I don't wake up and scream at my daughter.
Everybody gets jealous from time to time. That doesn't mean that you become abusive.
Just a power thing? Yeah. Everybody seeks power. That doesn't mean that I seek power of myself over I seek power over anti rationality. I seek power over, Destructive impulses. I mean everybody seeks power. That doesn't mean bullying, Doctors seek power over illness, right? That doesn't mean right.
Okay. Gotcha. Yeah.

Childhood Trauma: Father's Pleasure in Causing Fear

[1:18:50] Your father bullied you because he enjoyed your fear. Oh He liked it It gave him pleasure.

The enjoyment of others in causing pain and discomfort

[1:19:04] He enjoyed your fear. He enjoyed your anxiety. He enjoyed your discomfort.
Why did your parents drop you off at daycare so they could take great and deep satisfaction in you crying and screaming for them as they drove away?
Because they enjoy your pain. I mean, to me, that would be the only logic.
Why does somebody keep repeatedly doing something which they prefer?
Because they prefer whatever emotional satisfaction it provides to them.
Okay. Okay. Why did your father let you wander into this obvious death trap of a relationship with a single mother?
Because he enjoyed that it was going to screw up your life.
And then why, when your life almost got screwed up and you were in great pain, did he say, I told you so, because that gives him pleasure.
Oh, yeah, I can see that. Again, if I'm way off base, you know, it's your relationship, but I'm very much an empiricist, right?
If somebody keeps doing something, it's because they enjoy it.
Yeah, no, if you keep, yeah, be like, like, uh, poking a wound, I mean, you do that because you enjoy it.
Because yeah, it's- Yeah, because you enjoy, you enjoy the other person's pain.
And we know, we know that there's this big psychological phenomenon called sadism, which is actually quite common in many places, where you get, and they've measured this, right?
That you can, you get a thrill of endorphin looking at pain.
When you see videos of people being tortured, you get a semi-orgasmic thrill.

[1:20:27] Yeah i can see that yeah what what what you're saying like almost like an enjoyment from it of your yeah i mean it's extremely foreign to my way of thinking for sure no me too in the world that's why i have a hard time understanding it because i don't i yeah so far i i don't get that i don't i couldn't treat people like that but if you have people in your life life who enjoy your suffering they will continually and i'm saying unconscious right but they will be continually engineering your suffering yeah i think like you said it's an unconscious thing but it's it is what's going on yeah oh yeah it may be it may not be probably is but i mean they certainly have to know that they do it because it gives them pleasure right that they're aware of that because they don't do it randomly they don't do it for no reason at all.

[1:21:17] Okay yeah i i see what you're saying so if you say you know i'm i'm 40 and i i don't have a good relationship well that's because it would give your family of origin i assume it would give your family of origin a great pain to see you happy because it gives them pleasure to see you you unhappy okay that's the physics you're working for me it's you know to me it's it's i don't say it's as simple as saying you know why why can i not jump to the moon it's like because the physics of gravity don't allow it right it's not there okay i don't have the yeah that's so it's like why are my relationships failing well because people take pleasure in your relationships failing because they take pleasure in your suffering.

[1:22:10] You know, I had a family member once say, oh, it's a great, great girl.
You should go on a date with her.
She's a friend of a friend. And, you know, she used to be a figure skater and she's just lovely and blah, blah, blah. Right. Mm hmm.
Got to pick her up. She's an easy 400 pounds. Oh, geez.

[1:22:35] Now, I took her to dinner and we went to a nightclub and she was funny and nice and all that. But I'm like, I can't date someone who's 400 pounds.

[1:22:46] It's just not a good lifestyle fit because I'm very active, right?
Yeah. And I assume if she was a figure skater, and I assume she was, she said she was, then to go from that to 400 pounds is indicative of some severe trauma, right?

[1:23:02] Yes. That's manifested in all of that. And I remember she did a spot on impersonation of Austin Powers, like the Michael Byers character from The Spy Who, check me or whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And she was very funny. But why would a family member do that?
Yeah, it wasn't for your benefit. Well, because they would enjoy my awkward discomfort over the course of the date.
And they would also enjoy the fact that if I got angry, they could further twist the knife in.
Gotcha. It was almost like a joke plus a dig at the same time. Yeah, yeah.
Like, hey, you know, I mean, you're not having that many luck finding a permanent girlfriend of your own.
So I thought, you know, we just widened the net a bit. Don't be so prejudicial. Don't be phobic, right?
They just, you know, they put me in a situation of significant discomfort.
And then, you know, this used to happen as well in the business world.
There were people who would make the most outlandish promises about what the software I wrote could do. And, you know, then I'd have to stay for, you know, a month of weekends to make the software do that.
And, you know, they make the money and I get to work without a bunch of extra pay.
And, you know, it's just, there's a cruelty in the world that's, I mean, just look at the world.
I mean, there's a cruelty in the world that is really powerful. Yeah.

[1:24:26] It's really powerful, and it's a, I won't say it's a dominant phenomenon, but it's a very significant phenomenon.
So you would benefit from a happy relationship. But people who want you unhappy, who take pleasure in your unhappiness, they won't benefit from you being in a happy relationship.
So that's why you're not in a happy relationship, because, I mean, if it's your parents or your older brother or whatever, or maybe it's extended family. So the reason why you're not in a happy relationship is it would make them unhappy.
And because you're a person who grew up in a family structure and you had to please the people around you, you're just so used to pleasing people who want you unhappy or who want you isolated, who want you alone, who want you lonely.
You're so used to pleasing them, as we all are. I was, everyone, everyone on the planet. We only survive by pleasing our parents.
And if our parents want us to be unhappy and they enjoy our unhappiness, then we will conform to that because that's how we're raised it's like expecting us not to conform to that it's like expecting you and I to not know English when that's how we're raised right we may choose a different language we'll never unlearn English right.

[1:25:40] Yeah.
So, yeah, that's why I was spending a lot of time on what ended your relationships, right?
I mean, do you know how long your father dated your mother before proposing?
Or do you know how long they were engaged for?

[1:25:57] Yeah, not near that long. I think maybe a couple of years.
You mean from first date to marriage? Oh, from first dating to marriage.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's say two, three years?
Say two, yeah. Okay, two years. Okay. So two years from first date to marriage, right? Yeah.
Now, did he ever sit you down and say, dude, like, if you want to keep this girl, right, this is the girl that you had in college and in graduate school, right, from your late teens to your mid-twenties?
Yes. Did he ever sit you down and say, look, I was, you know, you'd be dating her for a year.
By the time I was dating your mom for a year, I'd already proposed.
So you've got to, you know, I hate to say this shit, I get off the path, so to speak, but you've got to, you know, don't just let it drift because that's not good, right?
Gotcha. Yeah, I never had those talks. Never say that, right?
So even though he did the exact opposite and ended up with a long-lasting marriage, however miserable it might be, so he proposed probably in a year and got married a year after that, right?
And you just drifted along year after year, half decade plus, right?
And he's never said to you once, listen, dude, love your kid, but you've got to make a choice here.
So you're doing the exact opposite of what he did to get married, and he's not mentioning a thing. You understand?
He's enjoying your suffering.

[1:27:25] Okay. Yeah, I see what you're, I get it.

Lack of support and encouragement from past relationships.

[1:27:32] If there's counter evidence, I'm certainly happy to hear it.
But that's certainly just from a sort of raw empirical standpoint.
That's how it looks to me, at least. yeah no there's really never any any yeah direction or yeah explanation or or yeah doing any of those types of talks you know so everything was always after the fact and yeah like you said it was always a dig after something went wrong you know after a set a life setback and never any encouragement or in that regard of relationships or or career profession or really anything.

[1:28:09] Thing right right and of course if we take away the drug of pleasure at watching us suffer we take away that drug you know people get pretty mad and so we we'd rather fail than anger the people who harmed us in the past we'd rather appease ourselves sacrifice ourselves in our our future so they don't get mad at us right i mean i don't know that there was too many people and can't really think of anyone in my past who was genuinely happy when i found the love of my life you know married 20 plus years and great kid and i love her more every day and she's just wonderful and how many people in my life were happy for me in the in the distant past and this were zero?
Is it the same? Well, yeah. I mean, that certainly seems to be how it played out.
Did you have a couple of close friends that were supportive?
Well, here's the thing. So there were some people who were supportive.

[1:29:11] I actually had three best men at my wedding. They were supportive, but they got progressively less happy as time went on.
And in fact, their relationships tended to falter.
So even though they were positive towards me, it was wreaking havoc upon their own lives in a way, the happiness that we had.
So it caused jealousy, animosity. I've noticed that when I've been successful with friends, when I've had success, not in relationships, but other aspects of life.
You have those friends that aren't it it uh it turns them off they're not not as supportive yeah this is old yeah kind of bitchy this writer gore vidal said it's not enough that we succeed our friends must also fail right yeah yeah yeah there is there is that you know happiness uh.

[1:29:57] You know happiness makes other people unhappy sometimes right i mean if you're genuinely happy then when your friends are happy you're thrilled right you should be yeah that's how i feel when When people do good, it's like, that's a good thing. Everybody benefits.
That's not something to turn the knife on or, yeah, try to sandbag.
Okay. So you said you have limited contact, but still some contact with your parents, right?
Yes. Okay. So let's say that you meet Sally from the alley, right?
So Sally is just a great girl, man. She's smart.
She's funny. She's wise. She's curious.
She's relentless she's virtuous and she really genuinely cares about you and wants you to be happy right okay and she says uh hey it's uh let's meet your parents i'd like to meet your parents.

The negative impact of meeting unsupportive parents in a relationship.

[1:30:55] Right and how is she how's she gonna, to react to meeting your parents how your parents yeah probably wouldn't strike me in my yeah that we wouldn't have the best yeah we wouldn't have a good relationship sorry who's the we there oh me and my folks don't have the best uh don't wouldn't we don't have a good a healthy relationship okay again you're you're you're obliquing me into oblivion okay how would sally react not you and She would not like it.
She would not be supportive of it. She would be against it.
All right. And let's say that Sally, she loves you. She just wants the best for you. She really cares about you.
And she finds out, you tell her, of course, that your father...

[1:31:46] Threw you against the wall when you were a little boy and screamed at you and called you names and threatened and bullied and all that kind of and has never apologized for it and she really loves you and really cares about you what would she what would she say yeah she she she would confront him or or not want to be associated with with him uh or with someone that would treat me bad i would i would turn yeah she would she wouldn't be in favor of that yeah i mean just to think about it in the reverse right you yeah yeah you know you you find that uh you know sally's mom you know just used to beat her and and just screamed at her and made her life hell and blah blah blah blah and has never apologized or ever admitted fault and you absolutely love sally and want very much the best for her want to protect her right because it's a you know the provide and protect male thing right yeah so how do you feel about your the love of your life how do you feel about sally's mom who harmed her more than anyone else in the world yeah if she didn't uh apologize or have any remorse or admit any wrong it would not yeah really i wouldn't support her uh keeping her around in her life um because she's not a not a you wouldn't support her keeping her around in her life oh my god dude grow a pair in this convo you're there to protect her what do you mean you You wouldn't support having the mom.
I would confront her mom, and yeah, that's not right.

[1:33:12] You draw a big, giant circle of fire around the woman you love and make sure that predators didn't cross it, right?

[1:33:20] Yeah. Well, you know, I wouldn't support Sally walking into traffic because she was distracted.
It's like, no, you tackle her and make sure she doesn't walk in.
Like, that's the protect thing, right? Right.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess I don't, I don't put it into words as well, but yeah, I would physically protect her from that.
Yeah. You'd say, uh, look, I know I don't want to spend any time.
Yeah. I wouldn't. Yeah. I'm not spending any time with your parents and listen, if you, I love you.
And the fact that they hurt you means I don't like them.
Right. That's what love is. Okay. Love means you don't like the people who fuck with and hurt the people you love.
You don't like those people. That's the shadow cast by the fiery sun of love.
It's fuck the people who hurt the ones you love.

[1:34:15] That's love. That's the price of love. Okay. You passionately care for the people who are good and virtuous and kind and sensitive and thoughtful and lovely.
And the people who've hurt them, I mean, you don't go hunting them down.
You don't stalk them, right? But you don't like them.
How can you like someone who hurts the best person in your life?
Yeah, you can't. So you have never had a girlfriend Who said anything like that to you Hey man, your parents screamed at you They abandoned you in daycare Your dad threw you against the wall And bullied you And struck you And he's never apologized?
I don't want to have anything to do with that dude I'm not No, my God, this is horrible I love you and anybody who's hurt you Is no friend of mine they are my enemy, have you ever had anyone be that loyal to you.

[1:35:21] No I've had loyalty on jobs and where you're working in dangerous situations that sort of bond with groups of individuals but not in a personal relationship, level were your girlfriends hurt by their parents?
I would say yes. And had those parents apologized, attempted to make restitution, promised to never do it again, gone to therapy, whatever it took to fix it?
I don't think they did either, no. Right. So if you love these women...
How can you have a positive opinion of people who've hurt them?
Yeah. Not apologetically hurt them, repeatedly.

[1:36:20] Yeah, and I remember confronting the exes about that, and they sided with the abuser or the parents. Oh, the single mom?
Yes, yeah. Okay, so there you go, right? So you can't protect people if they won't protect themselves.
Like, you don't have that power, right? Mm-hmm.

[1:36:41] So, I just, you know, to up your standard of what it means to love someone.
And listen, I say this because it doesn't sound to me like you were loved enough for people to protect you.
They just kind of went with the flow, right?
Well, there were problems, but they're your parents, blah, blah, blah, right? right?
Yeah, they were never, yeah, never confronted me on any of this past stuff.
Well, it's not really confronting you. No, I mean the situation between me and my folks.
Yeah, I was dating a woman in my 20s. Her father was really mean to him.
And she's like, we're going for lunch. Come along.
I'm like, nope, not doing it.
I'm not sitting down and breaking bread with a guy who hurt you and never apologized for it well he's sorry deep down oh yeah has he ever said it well but i know like no nope.

[1:37:38] Not breaking bread with a guy i care about you i wasn't quite at the i love you stage yet but i cared a lot about her and she taught me a lot about self-knowledge in my mid-20s and, i was not going to break bread with the guy who hurt her i can't say that i care about someone one and then have a positive response to somebody who repeatedly and unapologetically keeps hurting them but you see how love is just incredibly powerful and love is so not understood by the world love yeah fear is protective of those you care about.

Putting Family Above Virtue

[1:38:20] Yeah, and it seems more, yeah, people are more about family, but that is anything but that, anything but love, just more that family relationship takes precedence over that.
Well, and that's a theory, right? And the theory is, well, you know, if you just put family above everything, then everything will be great. Great. Okay.
Well, the world is putting family above virtue, family above love, family above morality, family above universal standards, family above kindness.
And how's the world doing?
Yeah, not very good. Not so great. Not so great.
Yeah. And of course, as a moralist, you put virtue above all, right? That's the whole point of the moralist. You put virtue above all.
And so yeah i mean this is me versus the world right and you know you're you know one way or the other you got a fork in the road here right so i'm saying.

[1:39:15] That morality is key and listen this is i mean the funny thing is is that nobody disagrees with me like nobody disagrees with me right i mean if if uh if your father was a bank robber right and and And you went to rob a bank with him because he just said he really wanted you to, and it would be quality bonding father-son time.
And you went to the police and you said, no, no, he was my father and he really wanted me to come. What would the police say?
Yeah. Yeah. You're still culpable. Yeah.
You're still like, they put morality above family, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And if, you know, if your father was an arsonist and you said, well, you know, I got to go and get him some matches and some gasoline because, you know, there's an orphanage he wants to burn down.
Nobody would sit there and say, well, that's totally legit because he's family, right?
And even your parents, what did your parents say?

[1:40:13] Morality is more important than relationships. And you know why they said that?
They said that you said you should resist peer pressure, right?
Yeah. You should do the right thing. Just because everyone else is doing drugs, don't do drugs, right? Just because everyone else is drinking, don't drink. Whatever they said, right?
Yeah, yeah. If everybody else was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you? Right? So everybody, everybody agrees with this.
Everybody agrees with this, that morality is more important than relationships.
The law, teachers, priests, parents, moral leaders of every kind.

[1:40:48] Everybody agrees with me in theory. In theory, yeah. And practice is different.
And even in practice, they agree with me because the police would agree with me, right?
That you don't get to say, well, family trumps the law.
Family trumps morality. It's not a defense, right?

[1:41:09] True. And teachers agree with me because teachers say that you shouldn't sacrifice what's good and right. Right.
You know, if you if you have a brother in the class, right, let's say you're twins.
Right. You have a brother in the class and your brother's just not very smart or whatever. Right. Maybe he's a fraternal twin or something like that. Right.
So your brother's just not very smart or maybe he's just not very good at math.
Right. Like you're good at math and he's good at English. Right.
And so he does your math homework for you and you write his English essays. Right.
Or vice versa, whatever it is. Right. OK, so let's say the teachers find out. Right.
And would they say oh no that's fine you can totally do the wrong thing because they're family right that's right yeah right so everyone agrees with me that's that's why they get so mad at me right because there's nothing more annoying than being asked to follow a moral rule, that you completely agree with but absolutely hate right that's why people get so mad at me just it's again it's got nothing to do with me nothing to do with me whatsoever it's their own contradictions that they're mad at, but it's easier to get mad at me than to say, well, wait a minute, our whole society is based on.

[1:42:24] The fact that we put morality above relationships.
Yeah, and they're trying to justify the contradictions. Well, then I point out that we should put morality above relationships and then everybody loses their shit.
And they lose their shit because they completely and totally agree with me. Everyone.
Everyone.

[1:42:47] And so, that's why they get so mad. Anyway, it's neither here nor there.
So, yeah, I mean, as a moralist, I say, along with your, and your parents, of course, your parents said the same thing, you know.
You should do what's right above what is popular.
You should put virtue above relationships and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
If your friend, you know, begs for you to help him cheat on a test, you should say, no, no, no, you shouldn't cheat on the test.
But he's my friend. It's an important, at least my best friend, right?
It's like, no, no, no, but you have to do the right thing. The right thing is independent of relationships.
You can't just say, well, moral rules don't exist because he's close to me, right?
That's not, nobody in the world says that. Nobody.
I don't know, maybe the mafia, right? No, right? But so, yeah, so that's where things are at.
I'm saying that morality trumps relationships. And the reason I say that is not only is that the very definition of integrity, the very definition of integrity is putting morality above convenience.

Integrity and Virtue in Relationships

[1:43:53] Right. And the other reason is that you can't have a relationship without morality.
Morality is honesty. Morality is integrity. Morality is virtue.
Morality is being trustworthy.
You can't have a relationship with people who lie all the time.
You can't have a relationship with people who betray you all the time.
I mean, you could be in proximity. You can call them names like mom, dad, whatever, brother, sister, cousin, aunt, but you can't actually have a relationship with somebody who's not virtuous.
And you can't have a relationship if you yourself are not living with virtue and integrity.
So it's not just what is the right thing to do in some abstract way.
It's the only way to actually have a relationship.
You can't have a relationship with people who aren't virtuous, and you can't have a relationship if you yourself are not virtuous.
And please understand, I'm not calling you not virtuous here.
I'm just saying that this is sort of the way that the logic plays out as a whole.
You seem like a very good and nice, I'm old enough to say young man, but you seem like a very nice and thoughtful and obviously very intelligent middle-aged man.
And I'm not saying anything like you're not a virtuous person.
I'm just saying that the whole point of logic, of science, of morality is to just take the obvious and the universal, like take the obvious, which everyone says is universal, and make it universal.

[1:45:16] So people say, yeah, of course, of course you should put the whole point of integrity is you should.
Can you imagine, can you imagine being somebody being a nutritionist and saying, well, you should, you should never put nutritional choice above hunger and what you feel like eating in the moment.

[1:45:34] Right there'd never be a personal trainer who would say you should you should you should always put personal comfort and laziness above exercise yeah right i mean they would say well the whole point of a personal trainer and a nutritionist is that you have to put you have to have standards above the convenience of the moment of the preference at the moment that's the whole reason those disciplines exist right yes so when i say yes uh virtue is the only way to have a relationship and we should put that and therefore we can't ever put virtue above a relationship.

[1:46:09] Sorry and therefore we should sorry we should never put relationships above virtue because you can't have a relationship without virtue that's yeah it's like a doctor saying i should i should put beheading someone over fixing their appendix it's like well if you behead them then then there is no appendix to fix because they're dead yeah so yeah so just that that sorry and i'll shut up now because i know you've been trying to say i apologize i just really want to get that point across that uh i'm just saying what is blindingly obvious what parents argue what teachers argue what priests and the police and the entire court judge judicial system everyone says that virtue trumps relationships and then i say oh okay so virtue trumps relationships And then everyone loses their shit.
I mean, it's just because it's supposed to be about, you know, they just say that and then they just do that to have power over you.
But so sorry, go ahead. yeah no i agree with you i think that's what what's been going on is yeah the just the titles of people that you have relationships with but you don't that yeah without virtue you don't have the basis for a relationship so with uh uh potential or with girlfriends with family members with you know mother father yeah the virtue is not there it's it's just a hollowed relationship it's empty it's just that's what's always struck me is like those it just feels empty.

[1:47:32] There's not much behind it other than a title or a name.
So that's your choice for the second half of your life. The choice for your second half of your life is do I want...

Choosing between historical relationships and virtue

[1:47:46] Virtue to be above relationships or do i want historical relationships which really i didn't choose so just born into your family right do i want historical relationships to be more important than virtue i mean that's a stark choice right and it usually occurs around middle age right because, you get a sense of mortality and and the the benefits of of obeying historical unchosen relationships over voluntary virtue becomes the price becomes pretty high and you're getting this unease like okay why isn't it working for me why isn't it working out for me well because you are enmeshed in relationships with people who um want you to fail they're preventing your progress they're anchors uh preventing if i sabotage you am i just preventing something oh gotcha it's even more so i see what you're getting at yeah yeah more than prevention yeah it is one thing to To stop you getting into a car, it's another thing to let you get into the car when I cut the brakes.

[1:48:47] Okay. Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's even more, it's stronger than I realized.
Well, yeah, because otherwise you would have succeeded at it, right? There's an undertone.
There's a physics to our life that's really hard to see until we just break it down to the stark realities.
And the way you break it down to the stark realities is you're just relentlessly empirical.
Just relentlessly empirical. Okay, well, your parents don't ever seem to, well, first of all, they were cruel to you when you were younger.
And I'm not saying they were only cruel to you. I get all of that.
But sometimes part of being cruel is being nice, like the nice cop, nasty cop is all just designed to get you in jail, right? Correct.
So your parents are mean to you. They've never apologized, which means they've never admitted fault, which means they've never stopped being mean.
They've never stopped being committed to being mean.

[1:49:33] Right? Otherwise, they would have apologized and made amends, right?
Yeah, there would have been some form of amends or restitution.
Yeah, just, you know, geez, I've been thinking about this, and this was wrong, and all that.
So, people are, yeah, there's a lot of inertia to people's personality.
It takes a lot of effort to change a personality, right? A lot of effort.
We know this, wrestling with this stuff sometimes on a daily basis.
So, it takes a lot of effort to change a personality.
And, yeah.

[1:50:01] Your parents haven't changed. And if they were cruel to you when you were younger, then, and they haven't changed, right?
I mean, you know, you're in, I assume you're in the STEM field, right?
So if you put a rock down and nobody moves it and nothing moves it and it comes back the next day, the rock's still there, right? It doesn't move on its own.

[1:50:25] That's like personality, right? If nobody's making an effort to change, personality doesn't change.
Change it's almost nothing more inert like maybe uh uh black holes and personalities the most inert things right so yeah so yeah if you if your parents were cruel to you when you were younger they've never apologized gone to therapy made amends then they're so cruel to you that doesn't just that doesn't just fade out it doesn't change right yeah yeah it's still there it's yes the so i mean it's it's the law of momentum right an object that's in motion tends to stay in motion an object at rest tends to stay at rest so if they're not in motion and growing then they're just putting down roots and staying more and more the same so then you say okay well my parents were cruel when i was younger they haven't changed haven't made apologies no restitution therefore they're still cruel to me now now they can't be cruel to you in the same way obviously right they can't pick you up and throw you against the wall uh which means that they could have prevented themselves from doing that when you were a kid right they can't do that now because uh it's illegal right so yeah so yeah so defend yourself as an adult yeah and you can defend yourself and that and they're getting older and you're stronger and right so so they can't do that you know they can't scream at you in the same way so they just have to find other ways to be cruel and the other ways is that they let you uh wander into bad situations they don't ever try and help you or save you and then they lord it over you mock you when the inevitable disasters occur correct i think Yeah, that's the hardest part, the mocking and the aftermath.

The aftermath and mocking in cruel relationships

[1:51:52] Sure, sure. Yeah, that's the gut punch. Right.

[1:51:58] So that's who you're surrounded by. That's the physics and that's the undertow.
And you can either spend the rest of your life conforming to that and be alone, or you can say, I choose to put morality above relationships.

[1:52:11] Okay, yeah.
And i choose if and but you have to you have to model this right so if you know you meet some woman and she's got i don't know like some um sister who's just you know really mean, and it's like i don't like your sister well why don't you like my sister she's mean to you i don't like people who are mean to you i care about you if i care about you how can i also like people who hurt you.

[1:52:41] Yeah. Now that signals something really unusual. That's a pair bond.
A pair bond is putting morality above relationships. That's what a pair bond is.
For humans, not for ducks, right? Just bond with whoever raises them.
But for humans, a pair bond is, and this is why, what does the marital vow say? Forsaking all others.
Right? right? To love, to honor, to obey, to respect, to treasure, right?
And that's why the vows are about morality.
To be faithful, to love, to support in sickness and in health, better or for worse, until death do us part.
So the vows, the marital vows are all about putting morality above relationships.
And that's why there's this thing in the, by the way, this is why there's this thing in the marriage ceremony where they say, anybody have a reason to believe these people shouldn't be married? Speak now or forever hold your peace.
You can say it now, but if you don't say it now, you can never ever bring it up again.
So you can put morale, if you think that there's a good reason, like a moral reason, why these people should not be married, right, then speak now, forever hold your peace.
So a pair bond is to put morality above the relationship because it's the only thing that is the relationship.

The Power of Virtue in Relationships

[1:54:04] And that's why the passion that you need is the passion for virtue from the passion for virtue you get the passion for a virtuous person and then they reflect that passion back to you and that's your pair bond yeah that's the fuel that's right so um you know how many of us in this life, actually have someone who says i don't like this person because he or she was mean to you and continues to be or hasn't made apologies it hasn't made restitution yeah those people are rare at least yeah extraordinarily rare which means we've got to become that and model it right gotcha that's what you're talking about in the past of leading uh being a virtuous man and leading a woman, leading a virtuous woman.
Yeah, I mean, it may just open things up to her. Now, she may come along and do the same thing for you.

[1:55:01] But I try not to, you know, I didn't try and wait for a good philosophy show to come along, right?
I try to make a good philosophy show. That's the plan, right? Yeah.
But if you live that virtue, you don't mind taking those hits, living that way until you meet the right person.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, because I met the wrong. Yeah, so sorry to interrupt, but let's say you meet the Sally, right?
You meet Sally, and I guess you tried with the single mom, right?
So you meet Sally, and you say to Sally, I don't like your father because he was abusive to you and he's never apologized.

[1:55:33] And she says, how dare you? You know, he's my father, and I'm loyal to him forever and ever.
It's like okay well then sally's putting relationships above virtue and it's a no-go right it's a very elegant sorting mechanism yeah you're right it makes it easy to yeah and it's yeah i've been that's i've been able to weed out those types of put you know bad relationships yeah but it needs to be explicit ahead of time right because then it's just like you know like like i'm sorry you feel that way good luck with your crappy pretend relationships right i'm out right gotcha yeah and i feel like just uh i've been doing that more with you know dating, since the single mom of you know trying you know sorting this this out and not um um falling in back into those traps and and you know right but if you don't have a positive way of working forward But then that's your parents just isolating you again and feeling superior and cruel, right?
Oh, okay. I see. Well, now I know what not to do. It's like, okay, yeah, but that doesn't exactly get you to be a dad, right?
No, you're right. And that's what helps. No, that's what I was saying. I know what not to do.
And I think that's why I contacted you is getting to the other side of what to do and how to approach it.
No, you've been, yeah.

[1:56:59] I see the blueprint. Right, right. So is that a reasonable analysis of the issues and a useful way of looking at them?

[1:57:10] Yes, I'd say so. Yes. Good. I mean, that's most of what I wanted to get across.
I don't mean to leave you high and dry or anything, but is there anything else that you wanted to mention?

[1:57:21] No, no, that helps quite a bit. No, I think, yeah, you definitely helped me and where I think I was, like I said, it's kind of that fork in the road and trying to establish how to possibly move forward.
Yeah you know really really love someone really love someone and just don't also like the people who hurt them i mean again this is something that's completely obvious when it's expressed when there's a lot of effort in the world into keeping it not expressed but i think i think that's that's going to find someone who really cares about you and that's that's the pair bond, no you're right i think once you explained it it's crystal clear but yeah you definitely cleared out the fog that's for sure fantastic will you keep me posted about how things are going.

[1:58:06] Uh yes i will i i greatly appreciate this you're very welcome and if i do get any emails from people who are hungry for somebody with your level of education and professional success i would certainly pass them along oh yeah well that would be great thank you all right thanks man take care have a great night awesome okay talk to you later bye.

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