I've been married for about 17 years. We've never really had a good way of resolving conflict in the marriage.
I remember a specific conflict right after we were married, shortly after we started living together. We were both raised conservative Christians and didn't have sex before marriage, didn't live together.
I don't remember the details, but I do remember distinctly thinking to myself: "There's no way out. I tried to make my case, but it was as if what I said didn't actually matter."
[0:00] Good morning.
[0:01] Good morning. How are you doing?
[0:03] Doing great. How is the, how's the call quality?
[0:09] Not bad. I appreciate that. It's a lot nicer to not have the nightmare of post-production.
So I thank you for the mic and I'm all yours. How can I best help you?
[0:19] Yeah. How do you want to start? I see you read the email.
[0:26] Do you want to read that off just so we get context?
[0:30] I don't have it in front of me. Unfortunately, I'm kind of out in the wilderness right now. Ah, okay.
[0:37] Yeah, you can just tell me what's going on.
[0:41] Yeah, so basically, the gist of what I wrote is I've been married for 17 years. Oh, I'm sorry.
[0:48] You asked me about audio quality. I'm getting a fair amount of wind noise.
[0:53] Right. It's because I'm outside. Yeah.
[0:56] Here.
[0:57] Let me turn this direction. How's that?
[1:00] Well, I can't tell you yet, but keep going.
[1:02] All right. So I've been married for about 17 years. I'm going to be 17 in May.
And we've never really had a good way of resolving conflict in the marriage.
And I remember distinctly having a specific conflict right after we were married.
I'm not exactly sure, you know, the exact timing, but it was fairly soon after we had started living together because we were both raised conservative Christian and, you know, we didn't have sex before marriage.
We didn't live together, obviously.
And, you know, after we moved in and started organizing our lives, some conflict arose. rose i don't know the details of it but i remember distinctly thinking to myself.
[2:00] There's no way out like i tried to make my case it was as if what i said didn't actually matter matter.
So I sought some counsel with my father and basically he told me, look, you got to pick your battles. You got to cut your losses.
Some things are not worth fighting about.
[2:30] Basically save your anger for things that are important.
Because I guess in his mind, and whatever I was upset about or arguing just didn't, to him, didn't seem to be worth trying to jeopardize the marriage.
[2:47] So I took his advice. I basically dropped it.
But the problem was I didn't really drop it.
You know, I think to myself, okay, yeah, I just got to basically walk on eggshells, when it comes to these types of things.
So I think that's been driving a lot of resentment.
in me for a very long time and it kind of kind of culminated about five years ago i guess is when it really started kind of during the whole like covid lockdown thing, our lives kind of got upended during that whole disaster fiasco and that's not to say like nothing happened in the you know 12 years prior but that was when things kind of ramped up, in our lives and that's when i think the bitterness and the resentment kind of took hold and.
[4:02] Started manifesting you know turned into me being snippy and snappy uh verbal abuse for sure, there wasn't anything just name calling like you're stupid you're retarded that kind of thing.
[4:22] Me being really horrible, and did.
[4:28] She pay back.
[4:29] In kind or no sorry I got a gust of wind here, can you still hear me yeah alright perfect, she would she would respond by getting hyper emotional because you know I'm hurting her emotionally and, basically her responses would be to the effect of that's not how you're supposed to be you know you're that's a horrible thing to say etc etc.
I don't recall verbal abuse from her coming back at me.
Yeah, I would say no.
[5:22] Okay.
[5:26] So where we are now, I have a daughter.
She's turning six this year.
We've been kind of...
[5:37] Wow, you guys were together for a while before you had kids.
[5:41] Yes. You want that story too?
[5:44] I do.
[5:45] Okay. So after we got married, since we obviously didn't have sexual relations there was some difficulties with having sex sorry uh oh since you didn't have sexual.
[6:02] Relations before you got married.
[6:04] Right we were both virgins um doing the christian thing and i highly recommend it even though it didn't quite, i i think our circumstance was kind of unique but i mean i don't go around on quizzing people on their sex lives.
[6:21] But how old were you when you got married?
[6:23] I was 20 and she was 21.
So, and she's actually my first girlfriend.
And it was, I didn't really play the field so much.
my my history was is like wasn't really didn't really pursue a lot of women during high school because of kind of like I'm.
[6:59] I was really career-focused at the time. I know from 16 onward, I was working out in the workforce.
And I was doing electrical work, making pretty good money.
And I knew that all the women in my social circle at that point were going to go off to college.
So I didn't really think about that so much.
But when I met my wife, it was sort of a small young adults group at the church where I was going.
and i knew right away that she was the one because she was awesome she had super high morals uh very similar to mine um and i mean i really do think she's quite the woman, but the the reason we waited so long after getting married to have kids is is we had the difficulty having penetrative sex.
And it was, the technical term is called vaginismus.
And it's, you know, it makes penetrating very, very difficult, very painful for the woman.
and it's very difficult to think about hurting your wife when you're trying to do what you're supposed to do when you're married.
[8:29] Of course, I'm so sorry.
[8:35] Yeah, so, I mean, thanks. I just don't expect to get so emotional about it.
Um, so we, uh.
[8:43] Is, is causing your wife pain. This is terrible.
[8:48] Right. So there, we had some various, uh, emotional issues arise from that.
And, uh, we did, she did go through, uh, physical therapy to try to fix that.
Um, it was very interesting because of course she's telling me everything, uh, Um, as we're going through it and she was mentioning how they, they're, the therapist is saying, oh yeah, very strict religious upbringing.
I see a lot of patients with this similar background to you, which kind of got me thinking really. So very Christian conservative women can't have sex.
You know, I mean, honestly, I have no idea what it's really supposed to be.
[9:36] Sorry, but I don't understand why Christian conservative women would have this particular issue.
[9:42] Well, the therapist, she was saying usually it's because of abuse of some sort, usually sexual abuse. And as far as I know, my wife has not experienced any of that.
I've asked her on numerous occasions if there was anything like that in her history, and she said no.
Sorry, and I apologize.
[10:06] I mean, I've heard of this, but I don't really know the details.
Is it scar tissue on the vagina or the labia?
Is it involuntary muscle contractions? So what is it that makes the penetrative so difficult?
[10:23] It is the involuntary muscle contraction specifically. So when you go to penetrate, it'll get real tight real quick.
And she had to do breathing exercises and ways to try and relax her body.
So it's kind of like very similar to having an anxiety attack, but it's surrounding your sexual organs. and muscles specifically.
[10:49] And is it generally considered to be, I assume it's physiological or psychological?
I mean, you wouldn't say psychological in a way, but it's like an involuntary anxiety response. Is that right?
[11:01] That would be my best description, you know, amateur description.
That's how I would call it.
[11:06] You're less of an amateur than I am because you've dealt with it for 17 years, so.
[11:11] Yeah, it's definitely muscular because you can feel it going on.
It does depend on her cycle to a degree.
Obviously, when the woman's ovulating, things loosen up down there, which also made things better, for her at least. but if we were well better or like.
[11:38] Good or just less bad.
[11:39] Less painful she wouldn't she wouldn't experience pain when she was ovulating and that's just sorry but would she experience pleasure, oh yeah yeah yeah no i would i would make sure to uh satisfy her oh no sorry that's like i'm.
[11:58] Not talking about non-penetrative sex what i mean is that during penetrative sex would it would it be be pleasurable for her?
And I'm sorry to ask, I just kind of want to understand the context of this.
Would it then be pleasurable for her or just less painful or neutral, like the penetrative sex?
[12:18] I haven't asked her specifically if she...
uh ever experienced pleasure while having penetrative sex i would assume no uh it would it always seemed like um hey you know you've satisfied me now i'm gonna satisfy you kind of like a not not like a gross transactional tit for tat more like she's trying her best to make me have a good time so she would say yeah you can go in but there was never as soon as I would get in there, I would try and finish as quickly as possible because to me, it's like, I'm hurting you. I can't.
I don't want to hang around.
[13:05] Holy boner killer Batman. That is stressing me out.
[13:11] Yeah, and I apologize if I laugh about it because it's kind of just like a coping thing. it's because it is it's really serious like it's it sucks uh.
[13:22] It's funny how you'd say it sucks um i mean yeah i'm sure that's just an accidental choice of words uh all right you.
[13:31] Know the english language is not precisely.
[13:35] In fact very precise um no i'm i mean i'm obviously in all seriousness i'm really sorry Sorry for this.
That's a very difficult and horrible thing.
Did she, I mean, if it was not sexual abuse, was there any other, I don't know, vaginal trauma or, I don't know, a pole vaulting difficulty or some gymnastics?
I mean, what do I know about mysterious plumbing? Was there anything else that might have caused these psychological spasms?
[14:02] I can speculate wildly on that.
uh so her parents were very control of they're still very control of um i blame them 100 for it uh basically from what she's told me about her first boyfriend uh experience uh she grew up in the backwoods of maine like 40 minutes from the coast mid-coast maine um and they had a very very small, tight-knit community, Baptist, if you want to put a label on it.
They're actually very, very nice people. I've been up there to visit them.
Very welcoming, very generous, very kind people.
And there was a young fellow up there who was interested in her when she was, I believe, I think it was 17 or 18.
because I met her when she was, I believe, just turning 20.
So they had just moved to my area, and she was still emotionally attached to him when they moved down here.
[15:14] Sorry, remind me, how long had they gone out?
[15:19] I'm going to guess at least a year.
Going out in a tight-knit Christian Baptist scenario is more or less, hey, we're together, air quotes, but there wasn't any sexual contact, no touching, no groping. No, I get that for sure.
Yeah. But there was a lot of stigma and pressure because of their ages.
Obviously, they were young.
He wanted to get married.
married but the parents her parents were like you're not ready to get married etc, and she ended up sneaking out and um meeting him and the story is because you know i wasn't there this is all secondhand she she kissed him and her parents somehow figured out that this, rendezvous had occurred and basically she lied to her parents to you know try and get out, and the lying try.
[16:24] To get out.
[16:25] Well oh you mean she was out of trouble right right she was trying to lessen the severity of the reaction so she lied to them about it and then i don't know how exactly they figured it out but they eventually got full details either she confessed to it or, i'd have to ask her but regardless the punishment that she endured for that uh you know acting out as basically a 19 year old woman at that point but she was like banished to her room uh she was isolated from the family uh i think her dad tried to spank her but she wouldn't let him when she was at this age uh they were they believed in spanking too uh which when i heard that i was kind of like jaw to the floor like sorry i'm a little i'm a little maybe you You can help me understand something. Yeah.
[17:25] These are the people that you refer to as very nice people?
[17:30] No, no. These are her parents. I was saying the community around them were very nice, based on my interactions with them.
Her friends up there, which are now in their 30s, they all have kids.
[17:41] Okay, got it. Sorry.
[17:43] Yeah. I'm not a fan of her parents at all for this experience.
so she I think that's the source of it um and and, I don't think they comprehend how damaging that was to her.
I know her mom has apologized for it in passing. It wasn't a real apology.
Like, you're not, you know, I probably shouldn't have done that sort of thing.
Like, that kind of an apology. There was no, like, remorse.
It was sort of like, hey, we're trying to pass.
[18:27] How long did the punishment last?
[18:29] I'm not exactly sure. Sure. I would. But it was not quick. It was at least a week. Could have been a month.
I would guesstimate in that time frame like it was.
It was full blown ostracization. Get that word out.
[18:45] And of course, she couldn't see the boy ever again. Right.
[18:50] Well, she no, she saw the boy after that. But it was pretty much a choose your family or the boy scenario. He was very much hammered into her.
And another thing that I know occurred is after so long, the boy basically gave up trying to pursue her.
Because to him, it's like, hey, I'm just not going to go through this with her.
So she got rejected. And it wasn't like he didn't like her.
She knew he liked her. And they liked each other.
and so, it was I think pretty terrible, and.
[19:40] And sorry what is it I mean I don't know I mean I just like asking the question I'll ask it right doesn't mean anything but I'll ask it anyway because I think it's important and I mean that seems like Like a lot of punishment for a kiss.
[19:59] Yeah.
[20:00] So.
[20:02] And the lying. It was really about that.
[20:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that. But she must have been frightened enough of her parents that a kiss.
So after you've been dating a guy for a year and you're 19, the idea that you can't have a kiss?
I mean, like, honestly, that's crazy.
[20:28] Right.
[20:29] Right, so, like, I'm trying to figure out if they're unbelievable, like, almost unbelievable religious extremists, that they would expect their child, not their, they would expect a young woman in sort of the height of her hormones to date a guy for a year and then punish her viciously if she had one kiss?
[20:51] Yeah.
[20:51] That's hard to believe uh now that is you know it was only a kiss.
[20:59] Uh i don't i can't verify it i mean i could probably call the guy up uh and ask.
[21:05] Well he's probably not gonna say too much to the husband of well i mean no heart.
[21:10] I i've actually never met him i mean i don't blame her him for pursuing her she was.
[21:15] No no some guy 20 years after called up and said did you do more than kiss my wife uh what's he gonna say right i mean and absolutely not.
[21:26] We were more than honorable sir.
[21:28] Yeah yeah yeah it was just honestly like the idea that you would hit your child at 19 for kissing her boyfriend of one year like because he was going to spank her which is also completely bizarre for an adult it's bizarre Bizarre enough for children, it's completely bizarre for an adult, right?
[21:45] Well, she didn't let it happen. She basically said, absolutely not, and locked herself in a room.
[21:50] No, I get that. But the fact that that would even be on the table, so to speak, is bizarre.
[21:55] Yeah.
[21:55] So the level of punishment, either the parents are completely insane...
or it was more than a kiss.
[22:06] I don't think it was more than a kiss.
[22:08] So the parents are legit psychos when it comes to this?
[22:12] Oh, 100%. And that's not just based on this story.
That's based on interacting with them for the last 18, 19 years.
When I met them, when we were dating, or I guess before we were dating, when we were kind of seeing each other in a group context, um her mom and dad would prohibit her from going out to the group and say things like oh you've had too much socializing for example as if she wasn't capable of making that decision for herself and they you know knew better okay so really neurotic drove me the parents it drove me bananas Like, and honestly, sorry, I am being honest.
When I was dating her, I had zero understanding of how that environment affected people at that point in time in my life.
[23:13] Oh, you mean like the family environment and its effects on your wife?
[23:16] Right like looking back thinking about it now there were massive massive red flags that i just was not aware like i didn't have the knowledge to decipher it and know what it would lead to because you know i'm young dumb and full of cum as they say and it they seemed like good christian people, the kind of people you want to associate with in the Christian community.
And my experience with the Christian community was pretty standard.
Not Baptist. My family wasn't Baptist.
They were I guess Baptist-lite without naming denominations, but then went into the Presbyterian church, kind of went full spectrum from Arminian to to Calvinists, but if you're not familiar with doctrinal disputes of the Christian faith, that might be much better.
[24:16] I have some familiarity, but I'm certainly not an expert.
[24:18] Right.
[24:19] So what were the green flags? You said she was the one, you saw her, ah, the angels, right? So what was that?
[24:26] She dressed modestly. She was very kind. Right.
I absolutely loved her attitude when it came to just being around people, very sociable.
She wasn't, I kind of look at it like she was the hot girl that didn't know she was hot.
[24:50] You got a bit of a librarian thing going on.
[24:53] Yeah. And of course, she plays the cello, which just ups the sex factor by a thousand. I don't know if you've ever...
[25:03] Oh you look at that finger dexterity on the shaft and yeah yeah i get it.
[25:07] Okay dude just i saw her play in church man that was that was not.
[25:12] Well it wasn't just god who was in that church then my friend uh.
[25:17] Well it was you know she's she's not a classically trained musician but she does a lot of um oh what's the word you know you play by ear I can't think of it.
[25:32] No listen I get it she's got her legs spread and she's playing the shaft I get it I'm down I understand I just need a moment okay so you obviously found her she was pretty she was attractive sexy all of that kind of good stuff, the kindness thing I'm trying to sort of square with the later marriage stuff like where she doesn't listen to your side of a dispute I don't, see the kindness thing regarding that Okay, so what were the other green flags for you?
[26:05] Well, like I said, from a morality standpoint, she was far more righteous in the Christian standard than I was. I was, you know...
I work in construction and I hang with the guys, you know, and that kind of potty mouth type scenario.
[26:24] You're a little more earthy than she is.
[26:28] Yes.
Yeah, that's a great way to put it. You know, when I met her, I think I was wearing blue jeans with oil stains on them because I was working on my motorcycle.
So she may have had a little bit of a bad boy thing going on, too.
[26:44] A cello player and the motorcycle guy this is almost like some harlequin cliche i sort of picture you with fabio's hair on a whipset mountaintop taking her off no no no fabio's.
[26:56] Hair is way too straight i have curly hair so.
[26:59] Right okay completely different sorry okay so you admired her faith you admired her skills her musical abilities her talents uh her kindness fitness, obviously intelligence.
[27:12] She knew how to make a meal. She used excellent homemaking skills.
That was one thing her parents did get right, in my opinion.
So it's like you go over to her house and she's making dinner, and it's like, oh, okay, all right.
I don't have to live off Hungry Man if I marry this woman.
[27:31] Right. I don't have to live off of radiated food 24-7. Got it.
[27:36] It so she's she's ticking all these boxes and i said yep i'm gonna commit to her because i was thinking about children and i was thinking you know this woman would be a great mother for all the reasons aforementioned.
[27:58] Got it. Okay. And then how long was it until you got married?
[28:03] We met in, I believe, June of 2006 or 2000. No, it was 2005, 2005.
And then we got married in May of 2007.
So there was a little bit of drama when she first came in that this other guy was pursuing suing her.
So I had to kind of snatch her from the jaws of the wealthy farmer fella.
That's a whole other story, but that was an interesting side of our dating life.
But I could tell she didn't really like him. I could tell she liked me more.
She was giving me all the signals and giving him none of them.
So I just bid my time and eventually they broke up. And then I said, that, hey, you're my girl.
And, yeah, so we were engaged for about six months because we had known each other at that point for a very long time.
So we didn't really want a long engagement for obvious reasons.
We were not sleeping together. Yeah.
[29:10] Okay. And is there anything else that you wanted to talk about with regards to courting and dating?
[29:17] Um i would just say from the courting side i mean we did we were really hot and heavy for each other i mean we did not sleep together but we got pretty darn close i'll tell you what and it's uh it was the hormones were flying her parents did attempt to control that as much as they possibly could, to the point where I think my wife and actually her sister, her sister got married very quickly too. They got married.
They had like a shorter courtship with her husband.
And they got married within like six months of meeting. And they're still married. They have three kids.
And then my wife was literally five months after that. We got married.
So they, her and her sister were both itching to get the heck out of the house at school.
quickly as possible and that was kind of the vibe like let's let's go you know let's get out of here because she just could not live with them but as you were willing.
[30:24] To wait longer right.
[30:25] Of course yeah and.
[30:27] Which one of you wanted to wait longer.
[30:31] Oh, I don't think either one of us wanted to wait any longer.
It was her parents trying to control and manipulate the scenario.
They put some stipulations for me, like you got to get a life insurance policy, which is not a bad idea at all.
You're going to take care of my daughter, that kind of thing.
But I had to ask her dad to marry her, which I didn't mind. To me, that's kind of the way it works.
not that he's and i always thought that was kind of funny because like, you don't own your daughter you know and we could just elope it's not like you could stop us and some of the tactics that you've employed are technically kidnapping and you know like unlawful detainment probably would be the nicer way of putting it but you know i never kind of put that in their faces because i wanted to have a good relationship with them because of her like i didn't want to be like your parents are absolutely horrifying and we need to disconnect i have since changed that tune over the last probably three years really the the covid thing kind of sealed the deal like i don't want anything to do with them at this point because because of how they responded during COVID.
[31:55] And so, yeah, as far as the courtship goes, it seemed pretty standard from a Christian perspective.
[32:03] Okay. And then, of course, after you get married, you run into these sexual difficulties, and, I mean, they remain unresolved. Is that right?
[32:14] It's gotten better over the years, but...
I, based on my marital problems, we haven't been sleeping together for quite some time. I'm not exactly sure, but it's been at least six months.
But it was slowly...
[32:29] Oh, six months you've had no sexual activity.
[32:31] Right, from now. So it was kind of on the uptick.
When she started drawing boundaries with her parents, I did notice that things started to improve in the sexual penetration side.
well okay but so let's do a little.
[32:51] Bit so when you started you ran into these problems it was painful uh and how long did it take for you guys to go and get the medical help.
[33:00] I want to say maybe a month or two, um we didn't wait to try and figure it out it was hey it's something this is this is not the way it's supposed to be she has way too much pain that kind of thing so she went and sought help pretty much immediately okay.
[33:20] And uh you i guess you got psychological exercises relaxation breathing exercises.
[33:25] And so what was.
[33:27] Happening with your sexual frequency early in your marriage.
[33:31] Well we did a lot of playing around basically doing i mean frequency i would say probably probably once a week, maybe, but it was kind of like, Hey, I don't want to, it was weird.
It was just weird. I, it was hard for me to not feel like I was being selfish if I wanted to have sex with my wife because of the pain.
And of course she wasn't, she didn't think of it that way. she thought of it as, hey, I want to make my man happy.
[34:16] Yeah, wifey duties and so on, right?
[34:18] Right.
I mean, we were young. We did have sex frequently, but a lot of it was not penetrative.
I believe it took about a month.
Yeah. It took, oh no, it took like two or three weeks before we actually consummated the marriage in the traditional sense right.
[34:44] And then you would have non-penetrative sex once a week or maybe more uh but but you avoided the obviously you avoided the painful stuff right right right okay, Got it. And I guess sex was enjoyable for her as long as it wasn't.
Again, I'm sorry to be so asking, right?
[35:03] But I just sort of want to map the marriage.
[35:06] So sex for her was good as long as it wasn't penetrative, right?
[35:13] Yes. And I would do my best to satisfy her in all the right ways without penetration.
[35:21] Penetration got it so so sex was relatively good and and fun as long as you avoided the the difficult stuff which was i guess i mean it wasn't that much fun for either of you at that point right like penetrative sex right okay got it got it so given that you could have penetrative sex and it took you i don't know rough math uh what 11 years uh nine years uh to to have kids Was there a reason why you decided to not have kids for that length of time?
[35:54] Absolutely. So that reasoning in my head goes back to my childhood and her childhood, 100%.
I am one of eight kids, and I'm number two in the line.
And basically, my dad and my mom, I mean, I was...
i was rejected as a kid you know because childhood neglect doesn't exist right and so it's like my wife was over controlled over scrutinized i was pretty much left out for the wolves to raise me and i noticed a sharp decline in my parents uh.
[36:42] I guess, attention towards their children, the more children they had.
And since I was one of the older ones, a lot of the responsibility of babysitting, doing diapers fell onto me and my older brother.
My older brother was pretty much unhelpful in that regard.
He was very rebellious. I mean, I say that, but looking back, it was his, He was not getting what he needed from our parents.
So he was basically acting out, trying to get attention.
And my parents were always just focused on babies, babies, babies.
So in my head, I got married.
And I was like, hon, do you really want kids? Because I'm okay waiting.
And my dad, I remember my dad coming to me saying, hey, you got married.
You guys need to start making babies. And I kind of looked at him and I was the thousand-yard stare like, how could you possibly think that I would want to do what you do?
Because he just got... My father was not a wealthy man.
He worked constantly because he had 10 mouths to feed.
[38:00] And he ran his own business, which was somewhat successful some years.
He programmed COBOL, by the way. Just shout out to you.
[38:13] Hero of mine.
[38:14] Yeah. And he got a job one year up in a pretty...
Got a job in a town about an hour and a half away. He was getting paid like 50 or 60 bucks an hour in the early 2000s to program these COBOL machines that were still running manufacturing lines.
So that was kind of like the highlight of his career because he made a bucket of money back when 50 bucks an hour is probably like, what, 200 bucks an hour now?
[38:43] Something like that. Especially grocery bills. Yeah.
[38:46] Yeah.
So that contract ended. He started an ISP, actually, in the late 90s.
97, back when you could use the POTS network for resold internet.
So I had a T1 in my house when I was 97, up to 11 years old.
I had 3 megabit per second, up and down, symmetrical.
And everyone else was on 14.4 modems. It's great.
[39:20] I still remember my first upgrade from the 96k modem.
[39:23] Yeah.
so um I was popular at school at that point because I had the bandwidth that was it like I was the bandwidth kid so when Napster hit it was like what song do you want you know I can get them all so um, His career was very tumultuous.
Struggled sometimes, didn't struggle. My parents were always kind of bad with money.
And it seems like when I was in high school, we finally achieved a little bit of stability in the house we all lived in.
and then my parents decided to sell that house uh i think it was like 2000 and i'm gonna say 2005, so right when the real estate market was really ramping up in the u.s and they sold that house and they bought a bed and breakfast the next county over and that.
[40:31] God it's like they're like flipping the like the it was when i was when i was like a kid but you said some some kid would would come and say with a deck of cards right hey do you want to play like you'd have some cards what do you want to play hey do you want to play 52 card pickup and you'd say sure and they'd knock all the cards out of your hands and they're like hey and now you get to pick them up right you know that that old joke right and so it's like it's like your parents are like well which which of the random deck of entrepreneurial possibilities that we get to draw from today exactly.
[41:01] And that That business failed miserably.
It really opened my eyes into the absolute evil of the banking system in America.
Because when it was all said and done, they lost all of their money, everything.
The bank took the house and then stole it and made money based on what they had put down prior. Like...
I'm to the point where I think foreclosure should be illegal just based on the fact that the banksters literally want you to fail.
[41:35] And it's so freaking popular.
[41:36] Well, they want you to fail if they can make more money from your failure.
[41:40] They always do. That's the dirty secret. Like anyone who says.
[41:44] Oh, I lost money. No, no. I mean, look, I mean, I'm sorry.
I know people who've failed and the bank has had to eat a lot of money.
A lot of money. Like they've declared bankruptcy and the banks have – like banks do lose money on loans from time to time.
And it's really – look, I'm not trying to give you big sympathy for the banks because they're all tied in to central banking and all of that.
But there are times when the banks really do lose money.
Now, of course, they can just run to the Fed window and get more. So it's you and I.
But it does sometimes happen. Sorry. Go ahead.
[42:14] Yeah. In this scenario, this type of property, they mortgaged it at like 700,000 U.S. in 2006.
time frame. And they were paying the mortgage up until they couldn't.
So they were making interest on the money.
They had sunk probably $300,000 into it to get in there. So it was like a million dollar property.
But it was a functioning business at the time. The business ran for maybe two or three years.
But eventually, they couldn't pay the mortgage. They had to declare bankruptcy.
They stalled it out over a long period of time.
The bank eventually took it and then sold it for For around $650,000.
So it's just a basic math.
[43:00] Your parents bought it for $700,000, put $300,000 in, became a million-dollar property. The bank sold it for $650,000.
[43:06] No, no. The buy price was a million. And then they had to mortgage $700,000. So...
The bank probably broke even. My parents lost absolutely everything. But that's in the past.
[43:21] Sorry, but why did the business fail?
[43:26] Because my parents weren't – their standards were not high enough for the Ben Breakfast industry, in my opinion.
They didn't have the resources to really invest in the upkeep and the maintenance.
They were always – They dropped $300,000.
[43:42] Into the property? What do you mean?
[43:44] Yeah. Yeah, but they didn't leave like $100,000 sitting around to just say, all right, we're going to update the rooms. We're going to do this, that, the other thing.
[43:55] Sorry, I'm always curious about business successes and failures.
So they put $300,000, but they didn't upgrade the rooms?
[44:05] Correct. But the rooms at that point were not in terrible shape, but they did need attention.
[44:11] What did they put the $300,000 in?
[44:13] That was just a down payment for the property.
[44:16] Oh, I'm sorry. I thought they did 300 grand in improvements.
[44:19] No, no, no. That was just a down payment. They took all of the money from the original house and then sunk it into the other house.
[44:27] So they bought a house too expensive for them to upgrade?
[44:30] Way too expensive.
[44:32] Okay. So, I mean, the business failed because they bought the wrong house, right?
[44:35] Correct.
[44:37] So what's with all the... And again, I have problems with the bank, but it sounds to me like you've absorbed your father's losing story, that it's the bank's fault or the bank profit.
And it's like, no, you're responsible for your business. I mean, you know what I mean?
Everybody has to deal with banks. Their business is to succeed.
[44:56] I point the finger at the banks just because of the whole interest speculation calculation. circulation.
It was predatory, in my opinion, because looking at my family's financials, there must have been a ridiculous amount of lying going on for them to get any banker to approve that mortgage.
I look at it as they knew they were going to fail from the get-go, just because the math is so absurd.
[45:26] Oh, come on, man. No, I got to push back on this one. And I could be wrong, obviously i'm just it's your family so are you saying that it's the bank's fault that your parents lied to the bank.
[45:36] No it's my parents fault for them lying to the bank and the bank was like sure we absolutely will hand you seven hundred thousand dollars based on very loose figures, because i mean everybody was doing.
[45:52] That in the mid in the 2005 era everybody.
[45:56] Was doing that i I mean.
[45:57] This is why the banks ended up having to run to the government for their trillion-dollar bailout, right?
[46:02] Well, it wasn't from this property because, yeah.
[46:06] Well, no, but that's because they sold it before the crash, right?
[46:10] Well, they did not sell the property before the crash.
They got kicked out in 2010, all part.
[46:20] Oh, so when the recovery was a little bit underway.
[46:23] Right. They did the whole foreclosure thing. They stalled it for about a year.
[46:29] Listen, again, I don't mean to poke any old wounds here, but it bothers me when people blame external circumstances for their own failures. It just bothers me.
[46:40] I look at it as like a societal ill situation because...
[46:45] Yeah, but there have always been societal ills, you know? Like, there are always societal problems.
Yeah, the banks, of course, want to make their money and the banks have access to easy credit that we don't.
But there are still bed and breakfasts. You know, I remember being in a place where they said, hey, this bed and breakfast has been running since like 1930.
And it's like there are people who navigate it. It's not all just the external stuff. stuff.
And the reason I'm saying this is that if you have a view of your father where your father gets to play victim, that's going to infect your mindset too.
[47:18] Right. And I know it was dumb. I know it was completely stupid.
I'm not trying to give the banks a pass on it because if I was in charge of that, if I was the decision maker at the bank, I wouldn't have given them a dime.
And it wasn't that hard to figure out that that's really my gripe.
[47:41] No because the banks can give anybody any money they want because they could just run to the government for a bailout right i mean it's not not bad on the part of the bank if you get a if you get a bailout right well.
[47:52] Sure but that's but now you're just taking advantage of people who are dumb it's like.
[47:58] Well okay but everybody knows that the banks can run to the government for a bailout everybody knows i mean they were literally literally called liar's loans do you remember that phrase no everybody knows the bank is not vetting anybody and also that it's kind of illegal for the banks to vet some people because they wanted more minorities in home ownership and all of that stuff i've talked about before so everybody knows the bank is just handing out money like candy yes.
[48:25] Yes and my my family my mom and dad were responsible for that ultimately yes it is.
[48:31] Okay good i i saw it to be a nag but But it's because the reason I'm asking this question is going back to the conflict you had with your wife at the beginning of your marriage that has continued, where you are nervous to assert authority in your marriage.
[48:47] Right.
[48:48] Is that a fair way to characterize it?
[48:52] Yeah.
[48:53] Now, if you're nervous to assert authority and you don't assert authority, your only remaining choice is to play the victim.
[49:01] Hmm.
[49:03] Now, your wife, let's, and sorry, I don't mean to interfere with your father's career stuff.
Interesting though it is. And it was a very good segue because I think it leads us to here.
So with regards to your marriage, right, you have a disagreement early on in your marriage.
You can't remember exactly what it is about, but you know that your wife doesn't give an inch, right?
[49:26] She doesn't allow for us to have a rational discussion about it. okay and how did she.
[49:35] Not allow that.
[49:36] She got hyper emotional she and by hyper emotional i mean she would interrupt yell say you don't just start accusing like you don't care about how i feel, and essentially shut down the ability to resolve it so there's no more discussion So the girl who was raised in.
[50:00] An abusive and anti-rational household is anti-rational.
[50:05] Yes.
[50:06] Yeah, interestingly enough, she was raised speaking English.
What language did she end up speaking?
English. Right? Because that's how she was raised, right?
She was raised where escalation, emotional aggression, and dominance, and so on, that that is how you tend to resolve disputes, right?
[50:26] Decibels equals dominance.
[50:28] Right. Right. So you knew, I mean, I assume you knew the story before you married her of her father threatening to spank her at the age of 19 and locking in her room for kissing a boy, right?
[50:42] Yes.
[50:43] Okay, so you knew that's how she was raised, right? And did you have conversations?
And listen, I'm not, I mean, you were a young guy, so this is not any criticism at all.
I'm just, you know, I mean, I assume you didn't have conversations saying, look, we're going to have disagreements in our marriage. So how are we going to resolve them?
[51:02] No, I don't recall any of those types of conversations. We did do some marital counseling prior to getting married. That was one of the contingencies of my church.
And we just, you know, sat through some classes, went over, you know, basic belief type stuff.
It was more boilerplate, like, hey, are you a conservative and you're a conservative?
[51:24] Good. Then you won't have to disagree on, you know, politics, for example.
you know that kind of stuff it wasn't like if i was running a premarital counseling class right now i would sit down each individual in different rooms and i would say tell me all of your childhood trauma make sure you damn well deal with that right now you know well i mean that's the possibility but i.
[51:46] Would certainly say to the couple uh the marriage is founded on one thing and one thing only which is a methodology for resolving disputes that's what the marriage I mean, we assume the attraction, the love, and this and that.
The marriage is founded on how you're going to resolve disputes.
Are you going to resolve disputes according to reason and evidence, or are you going to escalate and yell and throw tantrums and manipulate?
[52:12] I think one of the reasons that I got really abusive verbally is because if we're not going to be rational, I think to myself, well, might is right.
Let me just resort.
I use this analogy all the time. If we don't have law, what else do we have? We have violence.
That's the only other way to resolve it.
[52:37] If the person who yells loudest is going to win, then at some point you're going to have to just yell loudest because you can't be in a marriage if you never win.
[52:50] Yes okay and i'm sorry go ahead yeah i've deferred to her on, basically i just tiptoe around if there's something that's going to trigger her i don't i don't talk about it i try not to talk about it um i just avoid the topic altogether even though I may think I'm right.
There's no hashing it out. There's no, hey, what do you think?
I can't even talk about... Back then, I was really into politics.
For example, it was something that interested me at the time.
My wife couldn't stand it.
She did not want to talk politics ever under any circumstance.
And my family at the time, when we would get together, they liked to sit around the table and discuss things.
And she would get offended routinely about that and say, Why can't you just not talk politics?
And I'm like, well, it's what we like to do. It's, you know, when we get together, that's what we do.
And I think in hindsight, she was asking for more attention toward her.
But I couldn't discuss politics with her. She would just shut it down the exact same way.
It would be like, I can't talk about this. This is ridiculous.
It's making me feel terrible.
And that whole idea that when as soon as she starts feeling terrible, whatever it is we're discussing has to end right now, or else it'll just escalate.
[54:18] Yeah, well, that's – women as a whole are not overly committed to free speech because free speech hurts the feels.
[54:24] Yes.
[54:26] Okay, so, but she's, I mean, she's, I mean, I would say a fundamentalist Christian.
Is that a way to understand it?
[54:34] You know, I have been trying to figure out what fundamentalist means when it comes to Christian, because, you know, I played ball growing up, and everyone told me, you got to work on the fundamentals.
So, people are like, you're fundamentalist. I'm like, what does that mean?
[54:48] Well, it just means that, I mean, it means that you take the Bible very seriously, and its instructions are law, right?
[54:56] I would think so.
[54:57] Okay, so help me understand. Again, I'm no theologian, so if I go astray, put me straight.
But as far as I understand it, the man is the head of the household, and she as a wife is supposed to submit to her husband in matters of the world in particular, right?
[55:14] Oh, you want to talk about love and submission. Yes, you're right. Right.
And just as a brief aside here, you did a fantastic exegesis on Genesis 2, better than most Christian sermons.
[55:33] Wow, thank you.
[55:34] Just want to throw that out there. Like, you nailed it dead nuts on, because there's a whole hierarchy and order within the creation narrative that people just completely ignore. Nora.
It's something that I've studied very deeply.
And if you look at Paul's writings later on in scripture, it just reaffirms what Moses wrote in Genesis.
So yes, if you're a Christian, in my view, you read the Bible, you take it seriously, you do what it says.
[56:04] Well, no, that's not in your view. That's what being a Christian is.
[56:10] Yes, but there's a lot of people that claim to be Christians that would disagree with that.
Not in theory, but in practice.
[56:19] Okay, so does your wife disagree that you're supposed to be the head of the household?
[56:24] She doesn't disagree with that. She just hasn't defined what that means.
[56:28] Well, at the very minimum, it means that she has to listen to your complaints with an open heart and an open mind, right?
[56:37] I would say yes.
[56:40] Does she know that she's accumulated 17 years worth of sin under her belt that she needs to atone for?
[56:47] She would not look at it that way.
[56:49] Okay, so what will she say? If you could just play her, because I don't really get her thinking yet.
So if I, as you, were to say to her, listen, we're Christians, and I'm supposed to be the head of the household.
old, that doesn't mean, of course, that I get my way all of the time or I don't listen to you and take your feedback and your input, but particularly in worldly matters, which I'm sort of out more in the world and you're more home with the kid.
So we've kind of missed the mark on the Christian marriage because I don't really get a chance to sort of put my side of things out there and I do a lot of tiptoeing around because I'm frankly quite afraid of your temper and your escalation and that's not good Christian beliefs.
And I think that we've really sinned or we've drifted from the true path in our marriage. What do you think?
[57:43] Well, I would say that your temper's terrible and you've verbally abused me.
You've followed these cults. You hate women. You're misogynist.
And I can't respect you until you repent. repent?
[57:59] Well, I certainly do repent the times that I've raised my voice.
I certainly do repent the times that I've called you names.
That's not the right approach. And when I give the reasons for it, these are not excuses.
These are ways that we can work together to minimize these problems.
[58:17] I mean, I just remember very early on in the marriage, and it's been kind of like a constant thing, that if we have a problem, I really can't say anything, because anything I say just results in you either detaching or getting aggressive, and I really can't think of a time over the course of our marriage where I've had a conflict or disagreement or an issue with something you're doing or something that's going on in the marriage where you've let me have a sort of calm, reasonable explanation of what's going on for me.
i also want to point out the irony that you accuse me of being verbally abusive and then you tell me that i'm a woman hater i mean i'm trying to understand that that's to call me a hater of women when i'm married to a woman and have a daughter to call me a hater of women is one of the ugliest things i've ever heard in my life and you have the nerve to say that i'm verbally abusive and then you drop these bombs on me come on that's not reasonable You're.
[59:19] A hater of women because you've listened to these people who obviously hate women, who have infected your mind.
I mean, you're a cultist. You don't interpret Scripture properly.
[59:35] Okay, so just to pause you for a second there.
so you're saying that i have a problem with my temper and then you accuse me of being controlled by people on the internet having no thoughts of my own and blindly following people who train me like a dog to hate women i mean do you do you realize that's about as insulting a thing as you can say to someone does that does that trouble you at all that that you're saying these incredibly insulting things to me that are, honestly, they're relationship-ending things to say.
[1:00:09] She doesn't respond.
[1:00:10] I just want to be frank with you. Like, if you genuinely believe that I hate women and I'm an empty shell of a person who's programmed by insane people on the internet, then there's no relationship.
Like, there's no love. You can't love someone like that. So what you're saying is...
relationship ending. Now, I mean, obviously, we're married, we have a kid and all of that.
But I have to not believe what you're saying in order to continue the conversation.
Because if you were just some stranger and I was having a debate with you on a plane or in a bar or something like that, and you said, well, you're just a person with no thoughts of his own, you're just full of hate and you're programmed by hateful people on the internet and so on, I would not continue that conversation.
[1:00:53] So either you genuinely believe these things about me, in which case you you hate and fear me, and there's no love in our marriage, or you're saying these things because you're upset and want to hurt me because you feel hurt or something like that.
I can't believe that you genuinely believe these things about me.
That would be beyond shocking to me, and I don't honestly know how we could continue.
I mean, if I told you that you just hated men and had no thoughts of your own, that would just be a statement of such contempt for you that I wouldn't know how would you be able to continue.
[1:01:28] She doesn't answer those questions. She just flat out ignores it.
[1:01:32] We should have a conversation. I would try to continue.
Can you at least understand that to hear that you hate women, have no thoughts of your own, and are just programmed to be malevolent by strangers on the internet?
Can you understand that that's one of the harshest and most negative things you can say to a man with two females in his family?
[1:01:58] I have made a case, obviously not verbatim, but similar to that, where I have literally called out, you're telling me, what you're saying is extremely insulting.
You're saying that I don't have the ability to say it.
[1:02:13] No, but what does she say? Like, if you were to say, can you at least acknowledge that these are very terrible things to say?
[1:02:19] I don't think I've asked her that. I didn't say, please acknowledge it.
[1:02:22] Okay, well, so imagine, right? What would she say if I said, listen, I'm not trying to fight, but we kind of need to be on the same page here.
If you genuinely believe these things, then you would have to leave me. I mean, wouldn't you?
If I genuinely hate women, hate my daughter, hate you, and I'm just a dangerous attack robot NPC programmed by malevolent people on the internet, wouldn't you have to leave in order to stay safe or not to expose you or our daughter to such hatred and and so on.
It's kind of jaw-dropping and, of course, incredibly painful to be told these things.
So either I think that it's true that you genuinely believe what you're saying, that I'm really a terribly evil fellow, or you're saying these things in an effort to control me or hurt me or something like that, which would make you the terrible person.
Like, once you say these things, either I'm a terrible person, and you're a terrible person for staying, or you're a terrible person for saying these things when they're not true.
I mean, do you genuinely believe that I just wake up, get programmed by the internet, and go through each and every one of my days seething with hatred against you and my daughter?
[1:03:44] No, not when you put it that way. I don't think that happens.
[1:03:47] Okay, so is it fair to say that I'm not a woman-hating misogynist programmed by the internet?
[1:03:54] I think you've been deceived by other misogynists.
[1:03:59] Oh, so now you think I am a misogynist again. Sorry, I thought you said that it wasn't quite true, that that's my day, or I hate women in that way.
[1:04:07] Well, not in the way that you described.
[1:04:09] Do you think I am a woman-hater or not?
[1:04:11] You put out this great, exaggerated, grandiose, you know, you must think I absolutely hate women.
No, I think you've been a part of a cult and I think you've been deceived, but I still believe that there's hope for you.
[1:04:27] And in what way do you think I've been deceived? How have I been deceived?
And I'm not asking this to argue with you. I'm genuinely curious what you think.
[1:04:37] Well, I think you completely misinterpret Paul's meaning when he says wives submit to husbands.
Wives are never supposed to submit to husbands if a husband is asking or commanding his wife to commit sin or to do something or just really anything evil.
And I think you've brained about that term in the wrong context.
[1:05:00] So you think that I have commanded you to do evil?
[1:05:06] I don't think you've commanded me to do evil, per se. I think you're misapplying the standard.
[1:05:11] Sorry, you just brought that up as an example. Hang on. I need to know.
I get very lost in these conversations because it seems like the definitions keep changing, so I apologize if I'm missing something.
[1:05:21] There's no definition. This is how it is.
[1:05:24] No no hang on so let's go back so sorry you said that you're not supposed to obey me if i command you to do evil and then i said well have i commanded you to do evil and you said no, so it doesn't really apply then right correct okay so when i have if i'm supposed to be the head of the household as long as i'm not commanding you to do evil i'm not saying you should just obey obey me like an animal or something, but if I'm the head of the household, and I'm not commanding you to do evil, then shouldn't you at least listen with an open heart?
[1:06:08] Yes, I would agree with that.
[1:06:10] And do you think that you do that?
[1:06:14] I think I am standing firm against your misogyny that's been infected in your mind by cult leaders.
[1:06:24] Okay, so at the moment, am I exhibiting misogyny by telling you that calling me a woman hater is unpleasant and nasty?
[1:06:38] No, I don't think you're committing misogyny right now.
But I think what you've done in the past five years, you've rejected me, you've neglected me. We don't sleep together.
I've asked you to take me out on dates. You haven't done any of these things that I need. need.
And I'm convinced that you hate me because you have been listening to these evil, evil men on the internet.
And I think they've poisoned you and set you against me.
[1:07:15] So the only problem in our relationship, if I understand this correctly, and I'm not arguing with you, I just want to understand your thinking.
So the only problem in our relationship relationship is that somehow I've fallen under the demonic spell of internet misogynists.
And it's nothing to do with how you and I have interacted for the past 18 years.
And it certainly has nothing to do... Sorry, let me finish and I'll...
So it's got nothing to do with anything that you've done or anything like that.
[1:07:46] And I'm not trying to blame you. I just want to make sure I understand what you're thinking. The only problem in our relationship is not anything that you've ever done.
It's only who I listen to on the internet.
[1:08:01] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:08:02] So you have been a perfect wife. I just fell under the spell of these internet misogynists for unknown reasons. Is that right?
[1:08:10] I have loved you. I have raised your daughter. I have stayed home.
I have done the absolute, I am God's gift to womanhood when it comes to homemaking.
And, you know, I'm not a feminist. That's one of my faults, breaking character here. I've called her a feminist, which is dumb.
and you just hate women because of the mind virus.
[1:08:38] Okay, listen, I appreciate you telling me that. And I'm really, really sorry that you feel that way.
And obviously, I have something to do with it. So I'm not going to pretend that this is all your fault. I've obviously had things to do with that.
And I want to talk more about that.
But there is an interesting question in what you said, right?
So you said, you've loved me, right?
now it's an interesting question because I don't feel loved like when you call me a woman hater and a sinner or an evildoer or infected by a mind virus with no thoughts of my own you can understand that that's not someone you would that's not something you would say, to someone you love right so it's interesting when you say I've loved you, when I actually don't feel loved I feel kind of hated, so when you say that you've loved me.
[1:09:30] If I don't feel loved, have you loved me?
It's sort of like if I say, I've made you your favorite meal, and it's your least favorite meal, and you hate it, and I say, but I made your favorite meals, then you would say, but I don't like those meals.
I, in fact, hate the taste of that stuff, and you know that.
So, if you say you've loved me, and then you call me an evil woman-hater with no thoughts of his own, you understand that that is not loving me, right?
And you've said that, of course for quite some time so when you say that you've loved me isn't it sort of important not that you say that you love me or you think that you love me but that i also feel loved i'm not sure if i'm making any sense is that like you make it to make me feel loved as well as you feel like like you're loving me.
[1:10:16] Yeah a hundred percent.
[1:10:20] Okay good so so if i don't feel loved then you're you're not loving me.
[1:10:26] Correct.
[1:10:28] Okay. So when you say I've loved you, that's not actually true because I don't feel love. In fact, I feel kind of hated.
[1:10:37] I don't think she would agree with that. I have no idea how she would respond to that.
[1:10:42] Hang on, what part would she disagree with?
[1:10:45] She genuinely believes she loves me.
[1:10:48] No, no, I get that. And I would understand that you feel that, but can you understand that... So we had... Let's go back, right?
Let's go back to our wedding day. And it was a wonderful day, and I'm sure we can get back to that level of happiness soon.
[1:11:00] Let's go back to our wedding day.
Now, our wedding day was full of the vows of love, right?
Love, honor, obey, Obey till death do us part for better or worse.
[1:11:08] Oh, no, no. She ixnayed the obey.
[1:11:11] Okay, that's fine. To love and honor and all of that.
[1:11:14] Cherish. It was cherish.
[1:11:15] To cherish. That's fine, too. Although ixnaying the obey is important, right? Because it's actually both people who say obey.
[1:11:24] Right.
[1:11:25] Right? And there are things I obey. My wife says, of course.
I mean, why would I want to do everything she's good at, right?
That makes no sense. So, now, if I had said, right, so these were words of cherish, love, honor.
So these were words of love on our wedding day. Now, if I had said that I want to insert into our wedding vows that you, my bride, the love of my life, that you hate men and have no thoughts of your own, and are incredibly susceptible to malign forces and will act out demonic thoughts in our marriage, and I treasure that about you.
Can you imagine the looks on the audience's faces, like on everyone who was there to witness the marriage?
Imagine if I had put that in, or if you had put in, to love, honor, and cherish this man who hates women and has no thoughts of his own and is easily programmed by demonic forces to attack his own family.
Can you understand that the whole ceremony would come to a screeching halt and everybody would say, wait, what did she say?
Because that would be completely the opposite of love, right?
[1:12:41] Okay, so when you say to me these things, you can't also say, I've loved you.
And that's sort of an example from the wedding. Like, if we'd put those things in the vows, everybody would say, well, this is not a wedding.
Like, this is not a wedding. I should...
Right. And then if I said, anybody who thinks that these two should not be joined together in holy matrimony, speak now forever, hold your peace, like the entire congregation would jump up and say, well, those vows would be why they shouldn't be joined together in holy matrimony.
So you can't say you love me and also at the same time say that I'm a woman hater who has no thoughts of his own and is easily programmed by demonic external forces to attack his own family, right?
[1:13:18] Correct. So what I'm picking up here is what you're doing is you're defining love and you're defining it, but by what it can't be.
It can't be this constant needling of your spouse. It can't be a...
[1:13:33] No, it's not needling. No, no. It's a condemnation to say that I'm a woman hater with no thoughts of my own.
is an outright condemnation of my character.
It's not needling, right? Needling is, I don't know, hey, I thought you were going to take out the garbage or whatever it is, right?
[1:13:48] Right, right, right.
[1:13:49] You're a woman hater who's programmed by demonic forces to attack his own family.
That's an absolute condemnation of my character. So just to be clear.
[1:13:58] Yes. Yeah, you can't be married and condemn your spouse. Why would you be married? There's no point.
[1:14:03] Well, you can. You can, and I think that's why we're talking.
talking you can't right yes correct so would she understand that attacking your spouse's foundational character and calling it malevolent and evil is not the same as loving i'm sorry i don't mean i can't believe i need to say this stuff if i call someone fundamentally evil that's not the same as loving them yes.
[1:14:26] Staff i believe you have a point um can you still hear me.
[1:14:31] Yes i i can perfect.
[1:14:33] Yeah there's i mean there's there's more to the story um just because.
[1:14:45] No no hang on hang on so if she says you have a point which she might say something like that.
[1:14:52] I don't know i've been.
[1:14:55] Trying to imagine she would okay shit that you would have a point right, so thou shalt not bear false witness is one of my favorite and most important commandments because if you lie there's really not much else you can do that's good right, so if you and for years I'm sorry for how long has she been calling you a misogynist and all that.
[1:15:22] It's ramped up over the past year.
[1:15:25] But before she would call it more rarely or like for how long has she been condemning your character in one form or another A year.
And before that, she was more full of praise and all of that?
[1:15:40] Yeah, it was a pretty standard marriage, I suppose.
I mean, we had our tiffs. We would fight and make up, apologize.
Really, I think we did way too much verbal abuse to one another.
because to me like verbal abuse really i kind of just got clued into as to like the damaging horrible nature of it oh everything after.
[1:16:11] Verbal abuse becomes avoidance and survival that's all it is avoidance of the pain and survival of the day.
[1:16:17] Correct and i didn't realize that's what my my marriage was until I got clued into verbal abuse and how dangerous it is.
[1:16:31] Well, I'm so sorry. So you said that she's really only been harsh with you for the last year, but then you say that a lot of your marriage has been based on verbal abuse. So I'm just, if you can help me understand that.
[1:16:40] Sure. Let me clarify that. When we would get into arguments or disputes, we would escalate and verbally abuse.
My tendency specifically is to say names, say horrible things malign her character like.
[1:16:55] They're stupid and what's some.
[1:16:57] Exactly what's.
[1:16:58] Some of the toughest stuff you said to her.
[1:16:59] Uh toughest stuff i mean i've called her a bitch i have called her a cunt when i'm extremely aggravated because there's just there's no excuse i'm just i'm just i'm just trying.
[1:17:14] To map here i'm not trying to blame i just want to understand what what bombs have been rolled into the tent so to speak.
[1:17:19] Right right yeah i've called I've called her retarded, I've called her, Evil vile shit and what she does is she will rightfully bring up like you have a daughter Do you want her husband treating her that way and she's a thousand percent right about that like absolutely no and It's.
[1:17:41] But he most likely.
[1:17:42] Will if.
[1:17:42] You don't change right.
[1:17:43] Correct and I'm, I get extremely upset when I I'm trying to make a point, and I feel like I just can't say anything.
There's no way out. It's just whatever she says has to be right, or else there's nothing.
[1:18:07] And this is just the definition of terms that was happening in our little role play?
[1:18:11] Absolutely. There's no definition of terms. It's whatever she feels.
It's entirely about her emotional state. If she feels bad, it's wrong.
[1:18:22] Okay, I got it. And what does, so you've called her these terrible words.
[1:18:28] Have you ever wished, I don't know, you'd never met her, that you hadn't got married, that you were still single? Have you ever sort of, in a sense, disavowed the marriage?
[1:18:40] Yeah, I would say yeah. And what have you said?
Well, I haven't said anything to her, but I've thought it.
I've thought to myself, this is horrifying. Like this, I'm just a donkey.
You know, I'm just here to satisfy your emotional state, whatever it happens to be at various hours of the day.
I don't have a voice.
[1:19:06] Donkey, sorry, that's almost like a beast of burden, like a workhorse for money.
[1:19:10] Yeah. Yeah.
And it makes, you know, one of my coping mechanisms is working way too much.
So, I mean, I'm in a way making myself a donkey.
[1:19:22] Well, you are respected and functional at work and you achieve positive things, right?
[1:19:30] Yes.
[1:19:31] And, of course, as a man, I mean, I think both men and women want this, maybe men a little bit more.
We need to feel like we're functional and effective and achieving positive things and that we're respected.
respected now work of course right you're the big man on campus you're the alpha so you are respected and so you're drawn to the place where you a man are always drawn to the place where they get the most respect right.
[1:19:53] Right yes and.
[1:19:56] So how many hours were you in sort of the heights of of workaholism or so on how many hours a week were you working well.
[1:20:04] Uh i run my own company so i'm I don't do a strict hours thing.
I would say probably 10 to 12 hours a day. Oh, gosh.
[1:20:14] Okay.
[1:20:15] When you run your own company, you get to work half days. Any 12 hours you like. That was my dad's job.
[1:20:21] But weekends too?
[1:20:24] Oh, no. Weekends was 100% family time.
Like, we specifically do not work on the weekends.
and i'm very very flexible on long days i will work 12 hours some days i will also i'll do six hours maybe it's very dependent on clients and what their needs are well.
[1:20:49] But your wife.
[1:20:49] May perceive.
[1:20:50] You working harder.
[1:20:51] As you avoiding her yes and.
[1:20:55] There's probably a little bit of truth in that i know that there's clients and all of that but.
[1:20:58] Oh yeah yeah no i i have used my work as an escape mechanism specifically because, hey, if I, I have a choice of either fighting with you or making money.
So I'm going to go make some money.
[1:21:14] And how often over the last couple of years, I know the last year it kind of escalated, but how often did you and your wife have these unpleasant, I don't mean like mild disagreements, and I don't mean like all the worst of the worst, but how often do you have unpleasant disagreements?
[1:21:34] Um hmm it's become more frequent over the last month or so two months maybe before that i would say probably we were in a cycle i would guesstimate around once or twice a week it would be you know get upset get angry uh be horrible to one another, make up. I apologize.
I apologize for calling her names.
She apologizes for not listening to me.
[1:22:07] And then you do it all over again a couple of days later.
[1:22:10] Right. Exactly. It's flawed.
[1:22:15] Flawed? Okay. Now you're redefining things a little.
Okay, so like 75 times a year, you're having these kind of mini or medium or maxi blowups, right?
Okay, that's completely unsustainable and absolutely terrible for your daughter, just so you know.
[1:22:35] Oh yeah, I know. And my daughter is horrified. She's turning six and she knows when mommy and daddy are about to get really upset and she starts getting upset.
And we both know that this can't continue.
[1:22:51] Oh no, you don't know that it can't continue because it does continue.
[1:22:57] It yeah it continues.
[1:23:01] So you guys hate each other more than you love your daughter by definition right because if you're doing things that cause your daughter trauma but gets you to fight with each other then your dislike for each other is more powerful than your love for your daughter.
[1:23:15] That would be the logical conclusion yes.
[1:23:19] So what the heck man wouldn't you and your wife say listen we can't upset her daughter like this like whatever we have to do has to get done i mean if you were on, if you were on a boat trip and your daughter got really sick you'd say we got a a daughter to a hospital it wouldn't be like well you know i'm really enjoying this boat trip so suck it down honey you'll be fine just try and throw up blood over the side of the boat don't attract sharks daddy wants to go snorkeling right you'd be like well we have to stop our vacation to go and deal with our daughter's ill health, right?
So what the heck? Help me understand.
I mean, you're sacrificing your daughter's future happiness and mental health for the sake of these fights.
[1:24:08] See, I...
I can't rebuild my marriage on a foundation that it's been on for the last 16 years.
[1:24:27] Okay, that's a lovely, it sounds like a lovely opening to a passionate speech, but I could care less about it.
Like, honestly, I see you climbing up on Mount Sinai there in storm clouds about to give me some oration, you know?
My marriage and its history and the blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, you can't fight with your wife. Like that.
[1:24:47] My wife, I don't know if she can be right.
[1:24:50] You now want to go to my... You, you can't fight with your wife like this. You can't do it.
Like, you can't do it. Now, who's in control of you? You, right?
Does your wife provoke you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what?
I mean, you're the leader of the household. You're certainly the leader of yourself.
And I'm talking about sort of biblical precedent here, right?
But if you can't be in control of yourself, how on earth can you expect to be any kind of leader in your marriage?
You're literally falling for your wife's needling.
[1:25:27] No, I'm not the leader of your marriage.
[1:25:29] Like an amateur guy on the internet meeting his first troll.
[1:25:34] No, that's been the fundamental problem. I haven't been the leader.
[1:25:38] And okay so why do you, rise to your wife's bait or why do you descend why do you take this this bait every time, hint it's not your wife and it's not your marriage it's your childhood it's your childhood.
[1:25:59] Yeah it's it's female rejection.
[1:26:04] That this is to do with the neglect you talked about from your mom yeah okay so tell me a little bit more about that i mean because if you're mad at your mom and taking it out on your wife that's pretty bad for your daughter so.
[1:26:16] Um all right my.
[1:26:20] Mother maybe you are a misogynist i'm just kidding go on my mother uh.
[1:26:27] Basically stopped. She was like a baby-making machine, right?
She had eight kids over the course of 17, 19 years with a couple miscarriages in there.
And their idea of what childhood is supposed to be was essentially slavery for anyone who happens to be sentient.
[1:26:56] Um yeah look after your.
[1:26:58] Brothers and.
[1:26:58] Sisters was like the mantra of your day right.
[1:27:00] Right it's it's one of the reasons me and my wife chose not to have children for so long yeah yeah you mentioned that okay we we just didn't want to do what my parents did and my mom my mom My mom and dad would fight over money specifically because of my dad's career.
And she would escalate. She would get emotional. I don't think they had rational fights.
I remember my dad screaming at my mom.
[1:27:38] What was the content of their fight? I mean, you said about money, but what would they say? Like, you're not earning enough. And then what would your dad say?
[1:27:44] Oh, my mom would say, we're all going to be homeless. and she would basically scream that.
My dad would then argue back, we haven't missed a meal yet, we're not homeless, it's not near as bad.
So my mom would say it's way too bad. My dad would say it's not as bad as you think.
[1:28:04] So both your mother and your wife have anxiety issues.
[1:28:09] Yes, my wife definitely has.
[1:28:11] If I'm not correct, obviously this is your life, but this is what I've sort of gleaned, and that doesn't mean I'm right.
[1:28:16] Yeah. No, I mean, it would be fair. My wife, or I should say, sorry, my mom, she doesn't have anxiety attacks or anything like that.
[1:28:26] No, no, that's why I said anxiety issues, right? Like she's worried about being homeless when you haven't missed a meal.
[1:28:32] Right.
[1:28:33] And, of course, if you're worried about being homeless, the last thing you want to do is stress out your husband and scream at him because that's going to cause him to lose energy at work, to not sleep well, to not be a good provider.
That's the last thing that you want to do.
Literally, it's like somebody who's carrying 18 glasses of wine on a tray, you don't want to trip them up and say, aha, look, you see, I knew you were going to fall.
To attack your husband for his failure to provide is going to cripple his ability to provide. So it's the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy.
[1:29:05] Seth, my wife has been out of the house for a week and might have been so freaking productive this week because I just don't have a cloud of doom and anger staring at me like a laser beam through the wall.
[1:29:20] Oh, yeah. No, you know that meme of the woman who says, I'm going to ignore him all day so he knows how mad I am at him and the man's on the track to be like, wow, what a nice peaceful day. So quiet.
[1:29:32] I know exactly what you're talking about.
[1:30:02] But their concern is that if their man provides and provides well, other women are going to try to take him away and might succeed, right?
So women have a very complicated relationship with male provision.
It's kind of like the guy whose girlfriend is kind of chubby and unattractive or whatever.
And he's like, you know, you need to work out and you need to look better.
And then she works out. She gets a fantastic physique and she looks amazing.
and then what happens? Some guy takes her away.
[1:30:35] She finds a better man.
[1:30:37] Right, right. So this is very complicated with women in providing.
So a lot of times women will nag a man for not providing because they feel humiliated, that they don't have more money, but if he does start to do well, they'll sabotage it so he doesn't get too high a dating value and get taken away.
[1:30:57] Well, my dad, I don't think he was...
He wasn't a high-status male in that regard.
[1:31:06] You mean in terms of money?
[1:31:08] In terms of social interactions, like in his tribe, if you will.
He was not the top man on the totem pole, I don't think.
[1:31:17] No, but that's in part because his wife kept tearing him down.
And by the way, by the way, women are right about this.
When I first became successful as an entrepreneur, within fairly short order, i dumped my girlfriend who wasn't going anywhere in life and she knew this and she was very ambivalent about my success right right so because yeah it was like very quickly because when she put me down i'd be like well hang on a sec like what are you doing with your life right like you're working as a secretary and i'm running a software company who are you to tell me how to live like Like, give me a break, right? Like, you don't have any credibility with me, right?
So they're right that if, and this is why success for men is so rare, because you have to have a woman who's willing to encourage you and grow with you and who has the confidence to know that you won't leave her if you get more success.
[1:32:16] Really, see, you know, I wonder if there is some of that going on subconsciously in the of marriage because where I am with my specific business, my wife has done things in the past, not so much now in the recent past, but a year ago, she was the subject of some strife between me and my business partner that caused a pretty significant rift at the time.
That was really damaging to the productivity of the company as a whole, because we have this extra layer of abstraction that we have to tiptoe.
It's like, oh, what's she going to say? Is she all right? Is she okay? Sorry, hang on.
[1:32:59] Your wife can be verbally aggressive, if not downright abusive.
What on earth is she doing to have a relationship with your business partner?
[1:33:06] Well, it was more or less my business partner wrote her a nasty email, which I corrected him on saying, like, look, you can't do that.
[1:33:15] Why did your business partner write your wife a nasty email?
[1:33:18] Because my wife was barging into the office and interrupting business operations.
[1:33:23] Okay, but you have to tell her she can't do that. Like, that's not a thing.
[1:33:26] Right. I have laid down the proper boundary.
And again, this kind of goes back to the authority thing. like i need to be able to be authoritative like i i need to feel comfortable being authoritative yeah you cannot undermine my.
[1:33:43] Authority at work that's that's sabotage yeah but.
[1:33:49] I never thought about it wouldn't let's just keep.
[1:33:51] Coming back and causing problems for you at work it.
[1:33:55] Was more or less hey the family's here and we're having an issue and i need your help to deal with the issue, and my response at that time was, hey, I need you to take care of it.
[1:34:05] What family? Her family? Your kid? What do you mean?
[1:34:09] Yeah, yeah.
[1:34:10] Oh, so she'd have a problem with your daughter, and she'd come to work and interrupt your workday so that you could solve the problem with your daughter? Is that right?
[1:34:20] Correct.
[1:34:23] And was this during a time when you were working a lot?
[1:34:30] It's during the we're building out our business system and at that time I get that I bet it was this time when you were working a lot it's.
[1:34:38] Okay. I can't even tell you how trashy that is.
And listen, I'm really, really sorry to use this word because I know she's a cello player and I'm sure she's all kinds of refined.
But dragging family conflicts to your husband's place of business is so trailer park, I can't even tell you.
[1:34:56] Well, I mean, we don't have a physical location. The place of business is my house.
So there's going to be overlap. So a lot of grace was given for that.
[1:35:06] She's interrupting meetings in your house with family conflicts.
[1:35:10] Right. Right.
[1:35:11] Okay.
[1:35:12] That's a basic normal thing to do.
[1:35:13] That's a trailer park on wheels, not on bricks. But it's not much of an upgrade.
[1:35:17] I mean, I don't think she would ever come. Like, if we got a commercial location and I was there, I don't think she would ever come in and be like, you got to come. Like, no. Okay.
[1:35:26] Got it. Got it.
[1:35:27] Never do that.
[1:35:28] Okay. So then why? So she brings family conflicts to a business meeting in your house, which again, I can somewhat understand a little bit more.
So why does your partner end up writing her a nasty email?
[1:35:41] Because I was complaining to my partner about it instead of addressing it with my wife, which is what I should have done.
[1:35:48] Oh, so you're dragging your partner into this and then your partner thinks, hey, you know what's really great?
I'm going to write a mean email to this guy's volatile wife and that's going to make everything better. Is that, that was his plan?
[1:35:59] Yeah it was a bad plan didn't work well i can't think of anyone who's doing anything remotely sensible in.
[1:36:05] This entire quicksand.
[1:36:06] Situation all right no then it was your wife.
[1:36:09] And did he copy you on the email did you know it.
[1:36:12] Was coming um i think he he didn't copy me but he did say i'm gonna let loose like i'm gonna go and i'm like at that point i think i was so pissed off at her, that I didn't, I mean, I didn't try and stop it, obviously, it happened. But...
[1:36:32] And then what was the fallout from that?
[1:36:34] Oh, the fallout from that was, She basically said, I don't know if you can work with this guy.
And I was like, you don't get to decide who I work with.
[1:36:44] So you sided with the business partner over your wife?
[1:36:49] No, I said, both of you, there's no way.
This is just such a bad situation.
I said to my wife that wasn't appropriate for him to do. He needs to come through me.
me however i wasn't i don't think strong enough in my disagreement with the things he was saying like he wasn't accusing her of being horrible he was basically.
[1:37:17] Okay so hang on just so you understand family is a close ranks situation always right always and that's your vows, house right so uh i mean i've said this to my my daughter right if if i ever come across her in a public conflict i will 200 take her side i mean i'm sure the same thing would be true of my wife that i can't really imagine that happening but it's like yeah i'm you know she's in the right i'm 150 with her now maybe i might have some minor things to say later but family is It's always a close-ranked situation.
[1:37:54] Right.
[1:37:55] Like you defend your wife.
[1:37:56] Right? Yeah, yeah.
[1:37:58] But of course, you were mad at her, and I understand that.
[1:38:00] I was very angry at her, and I think at that point I was even living, like I had very briefly lived in my mom's place, like in the basement, just to have a bed to sleep in. How long did you do that for.
[1:38:15] And when did that happen?
[1:38:17] That was off and on for about two months' time, last summer.
[1:38:22] Oh, it's almost like a trial separation, right?
[1:38:25] Yeah.
[1:38:28] I'm so sorry, man. This is terrible. And, of course, you know, where does most of my sympathy go?
[1:38:36] To the child.
[1:38:37] Yeah. I mean, it's jaw-dropping what you guys are doing to this poor little girl. Yeah.
I mean, you know what Jesus says, right? Oh, yeah. If you harm the children, where should they go?
Into the water with a millstone around their neck.
[1:38:58] Yes. He said it was better.
[1:39:00] I'm not quite that harsh.
I'd give you a millstone and a couple of rubber duckies, you know, just to be fair.
But this is like, you can't. You just, you can't do this stuff.
You're a father. I mean, if you and your wife want to bicker until the cows come home, whatever, it's a stupid way to live. But, you know, that's just yourself.
You're harming and maybe your employees if your business goes up.
[1:39:25] But you know how this plays out. Okay, so what happened with your parents' marriage over time?
[1:39:31] Well my dad and my mom had a pretty i think crap marriage um but they had a good facade, uh my dad, was a workaholic i think that was his mechanism of getting away from my mom, uh it's interesting because that.
[1:39:58] By attacking him that's driving him further away and yeah that's like right.
[1:40:02] Right right yeah you're never here.
[1:40:05] You don't help with the kids you just.
[1:40:06] Displaced like a.
[1:40:07] Hotel right okay.
[1:40:08] Right so, it's let me rush home from work to more of that right well he worked from home the last 20 years of his life and he he passed away in 2021 21.
That's a whole other thing.
[1:40:26] How old was he when he died?
[1:40:30] 69.
[1:40:31] Holy crap. What wore him out so quick?
[1:40:35] Sorry.
[1:40:41] No, that's fine.
[1:40:49] So, he, he got pneumonia in the middle of the COVID stuff. And, my, he was sick right after Thanksgiving 2021. And, you know, full disclosure, he was overweight.
He wasn't terribly unhealthy.
He was unhealthy, let's not mince words. He did not take care of himself. He was, I'm going to guess he was I think he was somewhere around 240 pounds.
He was 6'1".
[1:41:35] He's not super massive. Maybe 40 pounds.
[1:41:39] Yeah. He wasn't like gargantuan or anything but um he got sick uh right after thanksgiving 2021 and he was at home for a couple weeks trying to fight it off and then he had sleep apnea which did not help the situation but it was early december my mom took him into the hospital they you know give him a covid test and then systematically murdered him in the hospital.
[1:42:10] Oh, gosh.
[1:42:10] And it was...
I couldn't see him. Couldn't, you know, you know, standard coverage shit.
Kind of waiting for... You know how the Germans, when the German people discovered the death camps, remember the reaction?
I'm waiting for our fucking culture to get to that point with COVID because it was just as bad.
It was the same shit.
And I'm not being hyperbolic when I say he was murdered.
[1:42:59] My mom was in there every day. you know, trying to, the trying to fight for my dad and the doctor the doctor attending to him said, you know when he came in there like oh yeah he's going to die like he's going to die like it's pretty much set in stone and my mom you know of course it freaks my mom out sorry did he test positive for covid.
[1:43:24] I i missed.
[1:43:25] Yeah they they took a pcr test but you know everything tests positive yeah they cycled it.
[1:43:30] Up like crazy right okay.
[1:43:31] Yeah it's like coca-cola's got covid too along with my that so the scam is you know you test positive now you get locked into a protocol that shall not be deviated from according to you know lord fauci and that well the hospital.
[1:43:48] Is tough for the hospital too because if there are deviations they have massive legal liability i mean it really is just a massive trap for just about.
[1:43:56] Everyone sorry go ahead i have absolutely zero sympathy for a man who says my father's going to die and when my mother says, my mother asked him outright, said, would you go through the same protocol if you had COVID?
He said, absolutely not. I would go to Florida and get the monoclonal antibodies.
[1:44:15] That's what the doctor said.
[1:44:17] That is what the fucking doctor said to my mother who was treating my father.
[1:44:22] And then he couldn't be released and get anywhere that he could get a different treatment, right?
[1:44:27] Correct. they systematically murdered him.
[1:44:32] I'm really sorry for this experience my gosh.
[1:44:39] So my mom you know calls me up like December 20th and dies dead we thought it was getting better but you know his lungs eventually wore out but he was on a BiPAP machine he was not on a ventilator is on the ventilator light and it's, The scenario, my mom had asked the doctor, hey, could you try giving him Lasix?
And from my understanding, that kind of treatment would drain fluid from the patient's lungs. The doctor...
[1:45:19] Sorry, if you could just get back out of the wind a bit. I'm just having a little trouble hearing what you're saying.
[1:45:24] Yeah, here, I'll just... I'm going to zip up the coat real quick. My mom...
[1:45:28] Sorry, was he vaccinated?
[1:45:31] Absolutely not.
[1:45:32] Okay, got it. Yeah, of course, as some people would say, that was the problem, right?
[1:45:37] Oh, my sister tried to say that at the funeral, but I got the last word on that, so ha-ha.
But regardless, my mom was trying to advocate for... Because my mom was reaching out to anyone and everybody at this point.
Like, hey, has there been any treatment? What do you got? Give me your info, et cetera, et cetera.
And me and my business partner were actually kind of doing our research on the other side trying to get contacts and just trying to pull every lever we could possibly find to try and change the outcome and.
[1:46:17] My mom said my mom got a call about uh you know someone mentioned to her like hey my husband was in a very similar situation the doctor gave him lasix which would from my understanding drain brain fluid out of the lungs.
And my mom mentioned this to the doctors like, Hey, can you try this?
Can we just, you know, do anything, you know, throw the kitchen sink at it.
Who cares? He's going to die. Right.
And of course they denied it. And they said, you know, it's not going to do anything. He has no fluid in his lungs. Well, we got an autopsy.
There's lungs were full of fluid.
So there, where he probably would not be dead if he was at home.
In fact, it would have been better had he died at home, at least for me and the fam.
[1:47:07] Oh, because you wouldn't have had visitation and all.
[1:47:10] We would have. That along with he would not have been murdered.
It would have been an unfortunate event. it wouldn't be oh society's killing your father you know like and everybody's cool with it.
[1:47:27] And this was uh this was the time of this is alpha right and and alpha was i mean i everybody no there's a lot of people judge who sorry go ahead it.
[1:47:35] Was no it was i believe it was the omega variant or omicron it was one of the o's i forget.
[1:47:40] Okay all right because it was pretty nasty and pretty virulent a lot of people judge covet by what came later when it had lost some of its its potency, but I'm no doctor, right?
This is my particular opinion, is that the first variant was pretty nasty.
[1:47:56] Right. And, At the funeral, my sister tried to say, it's because he wasn't vaccinated and all that stuff.
Well, I got up and basically stood in front of everybody and said, my father was murdered.
This happened in our town, in our culture.
[1:48:16] There's XYZ, ABC treatment options. They were only allowed to do one thing and one thing only.
They were trying to get him on remdesivir, which would just kill him faster.
It was very, very interesting because the way that whole scam worked was it was pulse ox driven.
So they're monitoring your oxygen level in your blood.
And based on that, they're determining treatment.
And the reason I say it would have been better if you stayed home is because you don't have that information at home.
You're just trying to breathe, for example. and if you've ever had pneumonia or bad flu it's you know that can get dicey but you're not reading your pulse ox and you know making decision based on that so they set a threshold for the pulse ox to to they said you're not quote-unquote better until your pulse ox reaches a certain point, So, essentially, you are doomed because for the duration of the illness, the pulse ox would never get up to a point where it's going to remedy itself.
So, they're like, oh, put you on more ventilator, more, you know.
So, it's like you're just exacerbating it. You're not treating it properly.
[1:49:37] Well, I don't know the causality, but there's a lot of people who were put on ventilators.
like the was it 80 or 70 so some i can't remember the exact number but it was some crazy high number of people put on ventilators died and of course whether the cause i'm not a doctor i don't know the cause and effect is it like well the ventilators were bad or they were in such a bad state that the ventilator saved 20 of them i don't know no.
[1:49:58] It was in my view it was the ventilators is basically wearing out the lungs uh it's just like blowing up a balloon you know and And, but it's done because they're like, we cannot have the pulse ox drop below a very certain threshold.
Well, you can, you can go a lot further than they say you can.
And that's the justification for putting you on the ventilator because the ventilator is forcibly blowing air into your lungs.
So your pulse ox will go up because there's just way more air getting crammed in there.
So it, it was just, it was awful.
[1:50:37] And it was crazy, of course, that, I mean, I've talked to people who, you know, I've got COVID, I'm having a tough time.
And basically, they were just told, well, go home, and if you can't breathe, go to the ER. Like, there was nothing else.
[1:50:49] Right.
I mean, I didn't even get COVID for an entire, like, year, you know, during the whole lockdowns and all that stuff. Yeah.
It was awful. My dad passes away.
My mom pretty much immediately starts dating.
What? Oh, come on.
[1:51:14] She's not that mean. She'll bring a date to your funeral if you're her husband.
[1:51:19] She waited, I think, five or six months, but it was really illuminating because you know how you think of the Victorian times where the women are supposed to wear black for like half a decade or whatever, you know?
[1:51:34] Yeah, Queen Victoria style, yeah.
[1:51:36] Yeah, yeah, it dawned on me. That's not for the women. It's for everybody else, you know?
It's so that everyone can see, oh, you're in mourning, stay away.
You're going to freak everybody out if you get hitched immediately.
Because, you know, my mom just got married married last weekend.
[1:52:01] And how long was she married to your dad?
[1:52:03] She was married to my dad from 83 to 2021.
[1:52:09] Oh, wow. So, I mean, that's almost 40 years or 38 years. Yeah.
So she's married for 38 years and like she manages to almost pull half a year before dating again.
[1:52:20] End and she i mean she got married last week so 2024 so three years in between but she was kind of dating it wasn't quite a year but it was it was more than six months before she started not it was well before a year and it was sorry so she was more than six.
[1:52:38] Months sorry i thought you said four or five months.
[1:52:40] Yeah it's fuzzy it was really soon because i remember her talking to me about it And I was just like, I don't know what to think. I don't know how to process it.
But it was definitely before a year was done. And I was just...
It's like I'm not a part of that scenario. It's like my mom invites me to the wedding.
And I was joking to people.
It's like, it's really nice when acquaintances invite you to weddings.
You get to go have some food, talk to people.
[1:53:21] Oh, you mean like you refer to your mom as an acquaintance? Is that what you mean?
[1:53:24] Yeah. Yeah. Because it has nothing to do with me.
I was not consulted. I am not a part of this.
My mom wanted to do something like...
[1:53:36] I want to make sure we use the time. Have you talked to your mom about the issues you have? And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't. I'm just curious.
[1:53:44] I haven't and the reasoning is I really don't want to buzzkill her wedding honeymoon.
I don't want to be that guy. It's like, hey mom, I think it's really inappropriate that you're marrying...
[1:53:55] This stuff as a child.
[1:53:59] Yeah. I need to talk to her about that.
And it's just with the whole wedding timing thing, again, like, I don't want to be that guy who's just an asshole.
[1:54:14] No, come on, man. Like, I mean, honestly.
[1:54:17] You're a shitty mom.
[1:54:17] Hang on. Hang on. So if you've covered up how you feel towards your mother since you became an adult, which is probably, I don't know, you don't have to tell me your age, but you mentioned 30s.
[1:54:27] Right?
[1:54:27] So like, you know, 15 plus years ago.
[1:54:29] Late 30s. okay so 20 years.
[1:54:31] You've been an adult and you never once sat down and said to your your parents hey you know i had some issues.
[1:54:38] Yeah no i and i need to like when i was a teenager i was, i started drinking when i was 16 and my parents pretty much had nothing to say about it nothing they didn't restrict anything i was kind of on my own at that point, um it was you know why they didn't.
[1:54:58] Say anything i mean talking you've got a you've got a sorry your wife is like uh it's gonna get spanked for kissing a boy when she's 19 and.
[1:55:06] Your parents are like yeah booze.
[1:55:08] It up kid.
[1:55:08] They weren't pro booze it up they were indifferent or ambivalent toward the fact that i was boozing it up particularly why why did they.
[1:55:20] Not intervene Devine?
[1:55:24] I think they were too focused on themselves, the businesses.
[1:55:29] Nope, nope, nope, nope, no, come on. If you're really focused on yourself, you don't have eight kids, so it's not that.
I mean, not having eight kids is a great way to not be focused on yourself.
[1:55:42] I don't think they cared.
[1:55:45] Right. So let me ask you this, brother. have you ever had the experience of feeling truly loved?
[1:55:57] Oh, God.
[1:56:15] So did you get it since aren't getting it now right.
[1:56:21] Yeah, sorry it's not funny, you know, I don't even know if people even know what it means to love someone, right you know it's like I want to say my wife loves me, you know or you know if i were to ask my mom do you love me she would say of course i do i absolutely love you that just i don't think she's lying i think she just.
[1:57:12] Doesn't know what it means that's why i asked earlier people can say whatever they want i'm a zillionaire i am a lamborghini right i mean you can say anything you want that's why earlier i was because i had this sort of suspicion right that you didn't know what the experience of being loved was that's why i said so your wife says well i love you or i've loved you and blah blah blah and then but you don't feel loved and if you don't feel loved you're not loved can you feel happy can you be happy without feeling happy i.
[1:57:52] Don't even know what that means.
[1:57:54] Well can you say i'm happy if you're miserable well you can say it but are you happy if you're miserable and are you loved if you don't feel loved no now of course people will say to you if you don't feel loved right what does everyone say to you who's dysfunctional who claims to love you say oh we love you we love you if you say i don't feel loved what do they always say they.
[1:58:15] Blame you they say.
[1:58:16] Yeah you're just not capable of feeling feeling love. You're too messed up to feel love.
You're defended against love. The reason you don't feel love is because you're mean and you call me names. And it's all you. It's all you, right?
Which is like me, if I'm a chef, yelling at somebody who doesn't like my food, well, your taste buds are clearly cancerous and you're deficient and you've got bile problems and you're pathological and you're a hater.
And it's like, well, maybe you're just cooking some bad fucking food.
Maybe your food tastes like shit and there's nothing wrong with me and my tongue.
[1:58:50] That's the thing. It's like I feel like I'm growing up in a matrix, or I've grown up in a matrix where love is just this thing that isn't what it is.
[1:59:03] No, love is a word that is used to get resources from you.
No, love is one of the most predatory and exploitive words in the English language.
Right? You have to do this because I love you.
I love you. you owe me an income i love you you owe me a phone call i love you you owe me time and resources and money and i love and i love and i love love is just this cheap shitty coin for most people i'm not saying everyone in your life but for most people love is just this cheap shitty counterfeit coin that they exchange to get real resources usually from men although men do it as well right they say to women i love oh yeah yeah next and then go right right.
[1:59:44] Yeah yeah, and it's like do I even love my own wife.
[1:59:54] Well if you did love your own wife you couldn't call her a see you next Tuesday you couldn't call her a bitch you couldn't call her retarded like you couldn't and nobody could pay you any money to do that, you could no more verbally insult your wife, then you could dangle your child over a balcony, Michael Jackson style.
[2:00:20] Sorry, somebody tried to call me and I missed the last 15 seconds.
[2:00:24] No problem. So if you truly loved your wife, nobody could pay you any amount of money to call her these horrible names.
And you would no more be able to call her those horrible names than you would be able to dangle your own baby over a balcony, Michael Jackson style.
yeah so why what are you trying to do and forget the moral side of things because we already know about that right so when you call her a bitch what are you in what are you desperately and obviously not very successfully what are you trying to achieve what are you trying what's the purpose of that it's not like to say oh it's mean it's like yeah yeah it's mean but but there's There's a methodology.
There's a reason behind these things. What are you trying to do when you call her a bitch?
[2:01:14] I think it's cathartic on my side.
I want to feel better. I want to inflict pain so that I guess the misery gets shared.
Like I'm trying to dig into here. Like I'm very upset.
I'm really angry that I don't have a say.
[2:01:40] All right and i'm really i'm reacting i'm gonna stop you because this all very good theory but i'm gonna give you another theory if it hits great if it doesn't we'll go back to yours is that fair.
[2:01:50] Yeah go for.
[2:01:50] It you desperately want her to stop hurting you but you don't believe she'll do it out of love so you want to hurt her so she'll stop hurting you, she's saying all these terrible things to you she's doing these terrible things she's mean she's whatever yeah once you need her to stop doing that you need her to stop hurting you and you can't you if you say to her i'm hurt, right i mean it's kind of like like if i mean we could use the sex example but the more common example is you go to hug your wife, and you put your elbow on her hair and pull her hair and she says ow and you're like oh i'm so so sorry, right?
So you hurt her, you don't want to, and you stop.
And I mean, I guess this happened with sexual activity, of course, penetrative sexual activity in the past.
So if you hurt someone you love, or, you know, if you're roughhousing with your daughter and she's like, ow, oh, sorry, like, you stop, right?
Because you don't want to hurt the people that you love.
So if your wife is saying and doing these things that are just so painful to you, Then if you say that really hurts me, your fear is that she won't stop, but she'd be like, well, good.
You deserve to hurt because you're being an asshole or whatever it is. Right.
[2:03:15] Right. And I think this, I think this particular style of just verbal abuse, put down type language, it all comes from high school where that was the way to get people to stop harassing you verbally.
You would harass them back better and essentially publicly humiliate them?
[2:03:39] Well, no, because those people were enemies, not people you married.
Correct. So that's not the case.
[2:03:46] I'm just saying as it's happening.
[2:03:47] Those people were openly enemies, not people you commit your whole life to.
[2:03:52] Right.
[2:03:53] So it's because you've married her and then you put her in the category of enemy.
Of enemy. It's almost like to use verbal abuse as a punch, right?
It's a punch. And it is a punch to the soul. It's a punch to the heart, right?
So you're not allowed in moral terms, right? You can't just go up and punch people. But if somebody's punching you, you can punch them back.
Because somebody who's punching you has already broken the non-aggression principle, and then it's just a matter of self-defense and survival, right? Right?
[2:04:26] Mm-hmm.
[2:04:28] So, both of you probably perceive that you're punching back in legitimate self-defense.
[2:04:35] Right.
[2:04:37] That he's hurting me. He obviously doesn't love me enough to not hurt me because he's, I mean, calling a woman these terrible names or calling you the terrible names like the misogynist, the woman hater, all of this terrible stuff.
So, clearly, you don't love each other enough to not hurt each other.
So everything after that becomes legitimate self-defense, and things get so tangled in their cause and effect that you probably could both state your case towards God himself, and God would be like, yeah, I can see both sides.
[2:05:11] Right. It's like, yeah, you're both right, but you're destroying your daughter, so you're both wrong. So it doesn't matter, really.
[2:05:21] You both have plausible justification for your acts of perceived self-defense.
Sorry to get overly technical.
It's sort of like if two guys are in a fight, right? And nobody saw how the fight started.
[2:05:34] Right.
[2:05:35] Right? And this happens in the playground, right? You get into a fight with some kid, right?
And nobody saw how the fight started. And the teacher comes. And what do both kids do?
[2:05:48] They blame each other.
[2:05:50] Yeah he started it he pushed me he took this he grabbed my picture he did this he tripped me he took my ball he right so they both are pointing at each other right now nobody saw how the fight started right so what does the teacher have to say.
[2:06:05] Basically you both can't do this or work it out or.
[2:06:12] Well the teacher can't come down on anyone's side because nobody knows who started it and this is true of marriage right so you you both could make plausible reasons as to why you have done what you've done, you know well she was calling me all these terrible names so i called her a terrible name so she'd understand how much it hurt, and she could probably say the same thing and you know again there's no objective record of our marriage right that's only what people remember and memory is pretty malleable right Yes.
So I would, I mean, not that I would ever be any kind of external judge in these kinds of situations, but I could certainly see how even God himself, well, maybe God would know, but, you know, maybe he'd just blame, you know, her dad and your mom. I don't know, right?
But you're not fighting each other, right? You're not fighting each other.
You're fighting the people you didn't choose. So the habits that you have of self-defense, okay, the habits that you have in prison are and not the habits that serve you out of prison, right?
[2:07:16] Right.
[2:07:17] So you developed habits of self-defense, and you saw situations of verbal abuse and aggression with your parents that you did not choose.
You did not choose to be in that environment. You did not choose to be born in that family, right?
[2:07:32] Correct.
[2:07:32] So all of these habits are in a situation of no choice, but the difference is you chose your wife. Your wife chose you.
so all the habits that you guys developed as children are, I mean, your father-in-law seems to be a past master of verbal abuse because he's virtually disassembling his daughter's morality because she kissed a guy when she was 19.
[2:07:55] I think it was more her mom than her dad because her mom had a pretty sordid childhood. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[2:08:03] Okay, so then if she wasn't defending, then she was basically saying, well, this is what mothers do.
They verbally attack people to ensure righteousness and godliness.
[2:08:12] Yes and her my wife's mom is very strict uh disciplinarian type.
[2:08:20] No no no that's oh my god that is so not the right word okay no no no listen if you're not in control of your temper i never want to hear how strict you are your first strictness should be with your own emotions right Correct.
[2:08:37] Yes.
[2:08:38] So if you're really, really strict, then if you're such a disciplinarian, how about an atom or two of self-discipline?
[2:08:45] Oh, you know, I love pointing out, what's the root word of discipline?
[2:08:52] Disciple.
[2:08:54] Disciple.
[2:08:55] Right, following the virtuous and self-control. all so yeah people who like escalate and and yell at people and call people names and so on and then talk about self-discipline it's laughable it literally is the 400 pound guy telling you how to eat healthy it's like i i honestly i can barely keep a straight face when people who are verbally abusive talk about discipline, It's like you don't even have the discipline to not pour tongue shit on people you claim to love.
You self-indulgent to the max, right?
[2:09:30] Yep.
[2:09:31] And you and your wife have both been very self-indulgent in terms of your attacks on each other, right?
[2:09:36] Yeah. What does it expand? Yeah. Yeah.
And that's one of the reasons she's not in the house right now, because it's better for our daughter to not be around us the way we behave toward each other.
[2:09:53] Are we in a salvation situation or a not-salvation situation, do you think?
I don't know the answer, obviously. I'm not you.
[2:10:01] What do you mean by that?
[2:10:02] Well, I mean, can the marriage be saved?
[2:10:06] I think we both can save the marriage, yeah. Yeah.
[2:10:08] Okay. And what's your evidence for that?
[2:10:13] We both have a desire to not ruin our daughter's life.
[2:10:18] No, you don't. Not really. Because you are, right?
I have a desire to lose weight, says the 400-pound guy with his face in fucking cheesecake.
He's like, you really don't, right? Not really.
Okay, so what else have you got?
[2:10:34] I'm not disagreeing with you.
[2:10:35] I just am an empiricist.
[2:10:36] We still have affection for each other. At least there's still sexual attractiveness.
We still find each other sexy.
[2:10:46] Despite no bangathons in six months, right?
[2:10:48] Correct.
[2:10:49] Okay.
[2:10:52] I think my wife has shown a willingness to go to therapy with me.
She wants to go to couples council. so i've we've done we had tried that initially but it turned into this sort of me letting loose, in the therapist's office because you know a third party's present i can now say everything that's been on my mind i literally said everything well what's wrong with that.
[2:11:24] Sorry how's that how does that mean it doesn't work.
[2:11:26] You're supposed to be honest.
[2:11:28] In a therapist's office.
[2:11:28] That was was what I told her, she didn't think I was being fair.
I didn't know what that meant.
[2:11:38] Because oh fair means agreeing with her yeah just so you know yeah yeah fair means not disagreeing with her so.
[2:11:46] I don't see the marriage being capable of being saved unless that changes that, idea of only how she feels is the only metric by which anything is measured because i have.
[2:12:01] Okay so so let me ask you this let me ask you this so you can't change your wife right obviously right right So you can only change yourself.
So what behaviors, and outside of therapy, which I think would be great if you get the right therapist, so what can you do differently to help with these issues?
[2:12:21] I would say the only thing I can do is self-discipline. I cannot react.
[2:12:27] Okay, what does that look like? So she's in a bad mood, she's needling you, she's upset, she's aggressive, what do you do?
[2:12:34] I cannot react. I have to disengage. age, I have to actually put a boundary down with her and say, look, for example, the whole cult thing.
You can't treat me like that. You can't accuse me of these things and expect me to be...
[2:12:53] Okay, that's engaging. Right? That's engaging.
[2:12:58] Okay. So shut up and walk away. What would you suggest?
[2:13:03] Well, okay, so if somebody is insulting you to that degree where she says you're part of cults and you don't think for yourself and you're a woman hater and so on, right?
So, in terms of, if you take it personally, then you're doomed.
like honestly you have to assume that she's lying about all of this because if she genuinely believes that the marriage in my view I don't even know where you could go if she genuinely believes you have no thoughts of your own and you're full of hatred towards women, And you're controlled by online demons, so to speak, or something like that, right?
If she genuinely believes that, then she would have to leave, right?
[2:13:53] Yeah. Logically, you're just serving a cultist. So you're serving the cult at this point. You're benefiting.
[2:14:01] No, and it's an evil cult, right? So, you know, like if there's online articles and stuff about me, they call me like the worst guy in the know or whatever, right? Now, honestly, I don't take any of that stuff seriously.
And the simple example to do that, you go to Wikipedia and look up Stalin and look up Che Guevara.
Like Stalin murdered at least 10 million people.
And what does Wikipedia say about Stalin? Well, it's controversial.
There's pluses and minuses. There are people who have different viewpoints.
Yes, there were 10 million killed, but he also did slightly advance the GDP of Russia.
There's all of this controversy. of like well i'm going to present to you both sides of a guy who fucking slaughtered 10 million people right right it's important to get both sides of the story let's look at the pluses right the guy who advocates for peaceful parenting is just straight up satan.
[2:14:53] Well it's because you what you stand for is so fundamentally life-changing if.
[2:15:05] Well i don't like i don't want to get into the why's in particular because i want to i appreciate your thoughts on that but i want to make sure we focus on you and your wife and your daughter so if you have to like she's not it's not personal i hate to say it i know that she's like going at you and she's going at you hard and she's she's clawing at your your wounds and stuff like that it's not if it is genuinely about you if she thinks you're a total evildoer who hates women and is trying to raise a daughter, then there's no marriage.
[2:15:41] She should run for the hill.
[2:15:42] If she's a good person and you're an evil person, she's going to hate and fear you, right?
Because good people can't love evil people. I know that there's love your enemies and stuff like that, but that doesn't mean get a mass murderer to help co-raise your children, right?
[2:15:57] Correct.
[2:15:59] So it's not personal. Now, you also have to recognize that when you called her a bitch and retarded, it wasn't personal. These weren't your genuine beliefs about your life.
[2:16:12] Yeah, I don't want to be married to a retarded bitch.
[2:16:16] Of course not. So you were both bearing false witness in order to hurt each other.
It's not personal. Yeah. So you have the thing where she says you're a misogynist.
What you want to say is, well, of course I'm not a misogynist and here's why, right?
So you think that it's personal?
And that you have to defend yourself?
[2:16:42] It's her trauma. It's the cult shit that she literally grew up in.
[2:16:47] Well, whatever it is. Rejection, this is how she... And also, you have reinforced this behavior in her for 18 years, right?
[2:16:56] Right.
[2:16:57] 17 years of marriage, and I think it was a year or two before you got married. So close to two decades.
you have not broken this pattern, and what she does works.
So women, look, here's a, don't tell anyone else, right? Just between us bros, right?
So men would rather have no interaction than a bad interaction, which is why you go to work, right?
a lot of women would rather have a bad interaction than no interaction, so and it's a real tragedy and a trap that a lot of women get caught into where they feel kind of isolated and rejected and lonely which causes great stress and anxiety, right so so she's a stay-at-home mom she's dependent on you right, so if if things aren't going well you're like well i'll live right but if things aren't going going well she feels very unprotected and she might get tossed out on the street and have to live in her car right at least evolutionarily that's what right so so women feel a great deal of anxiety when relationships are going badly that men don't right which is the old beam that we talked about earlier where i'm gonna ignore him all day so he knows how mad i am and the guy's like oh what a lovely beautiful day kind of thing right what is it i.
[2:18:18] I heard i heard summed up to saying men play the game of life women play the game of men.
[2:18:23] Uh well men may be security and so on especially if they're moms right but.
[2:18:29] It's that resource first relationship dynamic.
[2:18:31] Right right yeah i mean i would say that women play the game of people and men play the game of things but you know it doesn't really matter i think it's both so for your wife if if you and if you are not paying her much attention if you're avoiding her then like if you have a customer who's not buying from you sorry i'm.
[2:18:55] Tripping her anxiety well.
[2:18:57] So so then she freaks out and then a wise woman will say gee i should make myself more appealing and attractive because my husband is doesn't seem to want to spend a lot of time with me but unfortunately a more insecure woman maybe slightly neurotic, will say, my husband is avoiding me, that causes me anxiety, so I'm going to attack him because he's making me feel terrible.
And it's his fault that I'm feeling terrible, he's a bad guy, so I'm going to get mad at him because he's avoiding me.
Now, of course, getting mad at someone who's avoiding you, It's the worst thing you could do. You know, if you run a restaurant and somebody doesn't come into your restaurant and then you scream at them on the street, is that going to make them want to come to your restaurant? Of course not.
[2:19:52] No, no. If I can.
[2:19:55] Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
[2:19:56] So in her past, specifically growing up, you know, talk about fundamentalist Christian.
There was a lot of, I guess, really, you know, patriarchal.
we can loosely use that term you know just male focused influences in her past where um she went to these i guess i don't know if they were like a day camp scenario, where essentially women were looked down on it was completely horrible like i've had some one of my close personal friends his wife went through a similar camp wasn't the same one my My wife went to, but it's sort of like a sort of documentary.
[2:20:39] I think it was called Jesus camp where some of the kids were put through struggle sessions about sin and hell and stuff. And it was pretty rough.
[2:20:45] It could be. I haven't seen that. That'd be interesting. I should probably look that up.
But her, my wife's or my friend's wife's experience at that, at those same organization camp was like, she had like clean a floor with a toothbrush, that kind of thing.
Like, you know, female training, like it was just completely degrading.
and my wife was like this is total bullshit this is not what it means to be a good woman so we have these well I call them blasphemous assholes basically using the name of Jesus and God to hey blaspholes that's a new word hey I like where your head's at and, they're they're you're using god to promote something evil you know not the first time won't be the last well and this is of course this is men.
[2:21:36] Who are angry at being humiliated by their own mothers turn out to humiliate other women right.
[2:21:41] Yeah so when i you know, you know you could tell basically i'm like a little covid scenario i'm not a big fan of the the mainstream for example uh and i the way i picture this in my head my wife has built a bulwark around the internet personality and she's sitting behind it and she's hurling over the wall you know you're the cultist you have to destroy i'm sorry i don't i don't understand.
[2:22:15] What you mean by she's built a bulwark behind the internet personality i don't quite follow that.
[2:22:19] So it's like She's using it as a shield.
She's saying, everything is my problem because you listen to internet people.
[2:22:28] Oh, rather than say, okay, so she can't get mad at the right people.
And the right people aren't even the blast holes who force her to clean a floor with a toothbrush.
[2:22:37] Which is horrible and humiliating. It's her fucking parents.
[2:22:40] Yeah, so she can't get mad at the right people, and neither can you.
So you get mad at the wrong people, and then it never gets solved.
[2:22:50] And she's been making ultimatums about these internet personalities.
And because I was involved in that, I was involved in a group of people.
We had a great time during COVID. We were probably one of the only groups of people having a good time during COVID besides, say, the Amish.
We just didn't do anything. Boy, but they vindicated.
[2:23:11] Eh?
[2:23:13] I have a little video.
[2:23:14] I can't believe these people with their horse and buggy crap.
Oh, they're fine over COVID? Oh, they didn't get...
[2:23:20] Oh, really?
[2:23:20] Holy crap.
[2:23:21] I have a video of me driving down the road in the car saying, I feel so safe in my steel little box.
And I pan over to the Amish spring gathering where there's literally 500 people.
None of them wearing masks. None of them doing anything.
[2:23:36] Yes, also very few of them overweight. And yeah, none of them got vaccinated.
[2:23:40] None of them got anything.
[2:23:42] Nobody's really processing that. that. I've yet to see the media go talk to the Amish and say, oh, that's interesting.
Well, it's a prophet from the 17th century, isn't it? Okay.
[2:23:54] So, you know, I was involved in this group. Now, I have since distanced myself from it. I don't even listen to the online streams anymore.
And I actually, my wife requested that I stop.
And I honored that request. I said, I don't agree with you.
I don't agree with what you think about these people but I will stop listening to them because I love you and I want you to be, the focus not I want to eliminate them as a variable in our relationship, and and, That hasn't had any effect. She's still standing behind the bulwark blaming those guys.
Saying, you have to disavow, you have to do this, you have to do that.
And I'm saying, look, I don't even listen anymore. I have no idea what they're talking about these days.
And she'll send me a link of some YouTube.
And these people are obviously banned on YouTube because they're not saying mainstream appropriate things.
And I tell her, I'm like, YouTube is a propaganda thing. It only allows what is, you know, mainstream approved to be on the platform.
So obviously you're only going to get critiques of this individual, not what the individual thinks.
There's no exploration.
[2:25:16] Yeah, no, people get banned in parts so that they can be attacked without any opportunity to answer the attacks, right?
[2:25:22] Well, and look at, I don't know if you saw the recent Tucker Carlson interview with the fellow who worked at the State Department.
I can't remember his name, but he basically described the censorship apparatus and its chief function, which is to isolate geographic locations based on opinion and direct or censor content accordingly.
like it's way more sophisticated than even i even thought was possible well.
[2:25:57] You know when you've got a couple of trillion dollars at stake people would do some crazy stuff and we're talking oh yeah yeah no okay listen i appreciate listen i appreciate all that and and i i just i know we're i'm i've got other things on for today so i'm gonna have to wind up soon so i just want to make sure we sort of do maximum value fascinating though this other stuff is i do appreciate bringing it up okay Okay, so...
The concern that she would have is that male community in the past was harmful to her when she was a child, right?
The men all agreed with each other that women should clean the floor.
The girls should clean the floor with toothbrushes and things like that, right? I'm sorry?
[2:26:35] Yeah, fucking toothbrush. I'm adding that.
[2:26:38] Yeah, I mean, that's just beyond appalling. That is specifically humiliating.
And it's not even productive. They can't even pretend that that had anything to do with productivity, right?
[2:26:47] It was just humiliation.
[2:26:48] Yeah, just, you know, and so for her, men getting together and agreeing had her on the floor weeping as she tried to scrub with a toothbrush, right?
[2:26:59] Yeah.
[2:26:59] Right, so, but that's not you. You didn't do that to her.
So, it's very tough, it's very tough to get angry at the right people in this life.
It's very tough. I mean, especially if they're parents, because getting angry at your parents when you're under their power and control, if they're abusive, can be very dangerous, like very dangerous.
And in fact, we view it as almost a form of suicide to get angry at abusive parents, because throughout most of our evolution, it would really harm our chances of survival, if that makes sense.
And this is true for you as well. Like if you had said to your parents, look, the fact that you want to have eight kids is no obligation to me.
If you want to have eight kids, you take care of them. I didn't choose that.
[2:27:43] Right.
[2:27:44] Right. I'm going to go have a life.
[2:27:46] That would have been the most, that would have been viewed as the most selfish possible thing I could even say.
How dare you not help? You live here. You owe us. You know, it's like, you're still fed. Therefore you have to X. It's like, no, that's not a thing.
[2:27:59] Right. I mean, would you say that to a political prisoner? You, you know, North Korea, well, you know, you, you're being fed, so you have to like, no, no, no. You chose to have children.
I didn't choose that. You have eight children. you are the parents, you take care of the kids or at least I'm not going to do it as much as you want, right?
So if you had tried to stand up for yourself in that way it would have gone very badly for you and evolutionarily speaking, infanticide was like a real thing and the inconvenient kids weren't fed weren't protected, you know and sometimes were just outright killed, so I know this is sort of the study I've done of primitive cultures and it's not that long ago that we in the west were a pretty damn primitive culture Right.
[2:28:41] I just want to mention my older brother was the example of the individual who was lashing out at my parents and he got punished.
He had a completely miserable fucking childhood.
And I observed it as a second born and simply chose differently.
I make better decisions.
[2:29:02] Conclusions you know and okay bro i gotta i gotta finish sorry i appreciate what you're saying but we've got so many rabbit holes here so right to get mad at the right people is really really important, and the habits that you have with each other were developed in childhood. Is that fair to say?
[2:29:24] I would agree with that, yeah.
[2:29:25] Now, for you, it may have been more provoked. For your wife, it may have been more observed.
In other words, she observed her mother being aggressive, therefore she's aggressive.
With you, it may have been more that you fought back a little bit here and there, and therefore you're used to that kind of aggression, or maybe you saw it as well. But it's not.
These habits were imprinted upon you, and it was wrong that they were imprinted upon you.
You should care for your children more than you care to win stupid points in a pointless argument.
Right? And you should care for your children enough to make sure that you have adequate child care for your children without destroying their lives.
[2:30:06] Right.
[2:30:06] Or, if that's too strong a phrase, overburdening them with child care responsibilities.
[2:30:12] No, you should be investing in your children. You should be pouring your life into them to give them a leg up, not expecting them to pour their lives into yours.
[2:30:24] Well, and also, if you're going to have eight kids, you better make sure that there are two sets of grandparents around, that there are aunts and uncles, that there's lots of places that you can go to for childcare, rather than relying on your children as sort of unpaid daycare workers.
[2:30:40] Correct that was not done.
[2:30:44] So with regards to your wife these are bad habits from childhood and that's why it's not personal to each other you guys just learned as kids that escalation and aggression is the only way to win and there's only win and lose there's no win-win so you're either on the losing side or you're on the winning side, And, you know, I'm sure sometimes you're on the losing side, but you can't do that forever because it's too humiliating and it causes too much resentment. So then you fight back. And right.
[2:31:13] So these are bad habits that came from childhood.
It's not personal to each other. It wasn't generated by each other's behavior.
And so not taking it personally. So when your wife starts to escalate, I mean, in my mind, it's almost like, listen, I don't want to interrupt your fight with your father. So I'm going to go for a walk.
I'm not saying you'd say that but I'm saying that that's the mechanic oh, are you chatting with your dad now?
okay, listen, you're mad at your dad I get that, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get in the way of that you have a good old fight with your dad and here's a hand puppet of a bald guy and, go to town, right? no, but I mean.
[2:31:55] Isn't that the truth? yeah look, you're mad at your dad.
[2:31:59] I'm not gonna to take it personally.
[2:32:02] If I scream at her, I'm really mad at my mom. Well, your mom, your dad.
[2:32:08] It's like, I don't want to interrupt your psychodrama with my presence, so go to it.
[2:32:13] Right?
[2:32:14] But I mean, is that not somewhat the mental attitude that's not bearing false witness?
Because when she starts yelling at you and you take it personally, you're not just not processing the reality of the situation that it probably has almost nothing to do with you.
And she grew up in a household where the love was, well, quote, love, was extremely conditional.
Extraordinarily conditional, right? You don't do the right thing, beat your ass, and block you in your room.
[2:32:41] Right? There was a lot of other elements in there, too, with just emotional manipulation.
None of her siblings are functional in a traditional sense.
They have pretty severe issues. Right.
[2:32:59] I am sure of that, and so that doesn't work either.
So, yeah, and that's another thing that gets you humility, is you say, well, all of the emotional habits that I learned from my family have not resulted in good things for the children, so I have to assume that this is not the right stuff to be doing.
[2:33:20] Yeah.
[2:33:24] So, don't take it personally. Don't engage as if it's you.
like honestly if she had some really rude waitress right she came to you and she said man that waitress was totally rude to me today and you would say I wasn't rude to you today, wouldn't that be kind of like weird and she'd say what are you talking about I'm talking about the waitress not you but it's the same thing, I'm really angry at male authority hey you know I get that you know your dad was definitely tough I'm not talking about my dad I'm talking about you no you're not no you're not yeah right i mean you gotta and that's what to me it is to not bear false witness is to actually know what you're talking about rather than act it out right because you're a safer target than her dad one.
[2:34:11] Thousand percent and the most ironic saying that i get and you're 100 right on the take personally because she says you she accuses me of me attempting to control here, control her, and it's the most dumbfounding thing because I have no idea how she could get to that conclusion if it wasn't a projection.
[2:34:39] Well, no, but you are attempting to control her because when you call her a bish and retarded in the See You Next Tuesday word, you're attempting to control her behavior with negative stimuli when the person you're actually angry at is your mom, but it's easier to counterattack your wife or to attack your wife than it is to talk honestly this is why i asked if you talk to your mom it's like well no that's too scary man i'll fight with my wife five times a week but actually talking honestly to my mom god no right it's like so what are you doing like you're a big tough guy yelling at your wife not dealing but you can't even say anything honest to your mom you.
[2:35:15] Know what i think i'm going to start by saying something something honest to my mom, what she gets back from her, honey, well, you know.
[2:35:22] Here's the thing. I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't be honest.
[2:35:25] Oh, I know.
[2:35:26] I'm just saying, I'm just saying that you're all kinds of tough with the mother of your child, but not with your own mother.
I bet you don't. Would you ever call your mom a bitch and retarded and to see you next Tuesday?
[2:35:40] Not to her face.
[2:35:41] Right. So you see your wife also sees this.
your wife sees that you treat your mother infinitely better than you treat her, how does that make her feel oh yeah, And you see your wife treat her father infinitely better than she treats you.
How does that make you feel?
[2:36:04] It's like, ouch. I look at it like you are treating that asshole who locked you in the house and did all this horrible shit.
[2:36:16] And you understand the better she treats him, the worse she's going to treat you. And the better you treat your mother, the worse you're going to treat your wife.
So go have an honest conversation with your parents. You'd be amazed at what that does to your relationship with each other.
[2:36:27] Yeah, that's going to happen in the next minute.
[2:36:31] All right. All right. So it sounds like, listen, I really appreciate the call.
And I also really appreciate the strength that it takes to talk about these things. It's a tough situation.
But this obviously has to be driven, and I've mentioned it, so I'll just close on this, has to be driven by your daughter did not choose any of this.
[2:36:52] You don't. I mean, I guess you guys can be kind of crappy with each other.
I think it's bad, but at least they're all voluntary wounds.
But your child is not with you by choice.
And your child cannot see this. Like, there's a lot of damage that's already been done, and the only thing you can do is stop adding to it and start subtracting from it.
And so, for the sake of your daughter, right?
I mean, I'm sure if your daughter was being menaced by a big dog, you'd grab a stick and stamp it with her and the big dog. And yet, you traumatize her with this bullshit, right?
So, to protect your child, this is the self-discipline, right?
To protect your child, to protect your marriage. Because look, not taking it personally, being the bigger person, not engaging with this stuff.
I'm sorry you feel that way, and so on. And so she can't, I mean, she can't keep fighting if you're not fighting, right? That's just not a thing.
[2:37:48] Right?
[2:37:48] She can't just keep fighting if you're not fighting. So having that level of self-discipline is going to be something that she's going to end up respecting.
Save her from herself, be the leader.
And you are, of course, an introspective and thoughtful fellow with a fine mind and great language skills and if you take the lead but if you get down in her with the muck and fight at this level it's harming your daughter and you you don't have the right to do that again you can waste your life fighting with your wife if you want but you don't have the right to to inflict this on your daughter and um and you know maybe it's not too late for her not to be an only child if that's your choice but right now of course six six months in the desert and producing anything other than dust devils, right?
So, yeah, I'd say definitely don't, stop taking it personally, however tough that might be.
If you have an honest conversation with your mother, you will at least identify the person who probably did you a lot more harm than your wife did, and that will take a lot of the pressure off your anger to your wife.
[2:38:49] No.
[2:38:50] Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[2:38:52] Absolutely, dude.
[2:38:53] Thanks, man. Great conversation. I appreciate the time.
[2:38:56] Thank you so much.
[2:38:57] All the best. Bye-bye.
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