Surviving Suicide… Freedomain Call In - Transcript

Chapters

0:00 - Introduction
0:46 - Parenting Impulses and Patience
2:06 - Dark Impulses and Childhood History
6:37 - Delayed Parenthood and Toxic Relationships
11:07 - Effects of Parental Divorce
12:16 - Traumatic Childhood and Family Background
16:58 - Childhood Suicidal Thoughts and Family Dynamics
23:24 - Sister's Influence and Social Skills
27:14 - Childhood Feelings and Family Dynamics
31:44 - Violent Incident with Sister
34:21 - Family Communication and Healing
37:36 - Escalating Tensions and Mother's Aggression
45:15 - Younger Sister's Emotional Struggle
53:07 - Discovering Personal Growth Through Call-In Shows
56:55 - Transformation and Independence
1:02:50 - Weight Struggles and Relationship Dynamics
1:06:22 - Weight Gain and Gym Motivation
1:11:26 - Verbal Manipulation and Abuse
1:14:38 - Traumatic Family History and Loss
1:29:02 - Unhealthy Relationships and Neglect
1:32:32 - Childhood Neglect and Abuse
1:36:18 - Failed Rescue Efforts and Guilt
1:44:52 - Confronting the Past
1:50:56 - Facing Responsibility
2:01:15 - Overcoming Negative Patterns
2:05:57 - Finding Worthiness
2:09:36 - Seeking Emotional Healing

Long Summary

In this episode, I have a deep and emotional conversation with a caller who opens up about his traumatic childhood experiences and family dynamics. The caller bravely shares about his parents' divorce, his mother's alcoholism, and the verbal abuse he witnessed and directed towards her. We delve into the caller's early struggles with suicidal thoughts and neglect, leading him to reflect on the origins of his emotions and mental well-being stemming from a challenging upbringing.

As the conversation continues, we explore the caller's intricate relationship with his older sister and parents, touching on feelings of abandonment, neglect, and instances of abuse within the family. Despite the hardships faced, the caller demonstrates a profound sense of understanding and forgiveness towards his sister and parents, while also grappling with his own emotional turmoil. The call concludes with reflections on the importance of seeking counseling and how family dynamics have shaped his journey.

The caller recounts a harrowing tale of his mother's drug addiction and risky behavior, including exposing him to drugs from a young age. Despite these challenges, he shares his eventual decision to make positive changes in his life after being pushed out of his father's house. We discuss the transformative impact of focusing on health, reading, and employment, as well as the valuable skills acquired through playing World of Warcraft. The caller expresses gratitude for the positive transformations in his life and acknowledges his father's role in inspiring those changes.

Our conversation shifts towards the caller's past struggles with weight gain, manipulation tactics, and verbal abuse towards his wife, revealing the strain on their relationship. We delve into tragic family events and the caller's strained relationship with his father, highlighting the complexities of family dynamics and personal challenges. Despite his desire to help his sister, obstacles and personal struggles prevented him from providing the support she needed, leading to deep reflections on missed opportunities and regrets.

As we continue, we delve into the reasons behind the caller's inaction in assisting his younger sister, exploring his past behaviors, unresolved issues, and feelings of hopelessness and guilt. We tackle the importance of taking responsibility, examining past trauma, and improving relationships by addressing hidden guilt and understanding the impact of past experiences on present behavior. The conversation emphasizes personal accountability, family dynamics, and the transformative power of self-reflection and acknowledgment.

The caller reveals uncertainties and struggles with aggression towards his daughter, prompting a discussion on the roots of his anger, the need for self-forgiveness, and the importance of seeking help to address underlying emotional pain and behavioral patterns. We explore the caller's relationship with his wife and its impacts on their child, ending with encouragement for self-improvement and a heartfelt expression of gratitude for the enlightening conversation.

Transcript

[0:00] Introduction

[0:00] Hello?

[0:01] Hey, how's it going?

[0:02] How you doing, Steph?

[0:04] I am well, I am well. Nice to connect. I'm glad we could find the time today. Thank you for joining at short notice. So, yeah, I'm all ears. How can I, I mean, I remember the email, of course, but how can I best help?

[0:16] Yes, sir.

[0:46] Parenting Impulses and Patience

[0:47] Um in her in her stomach that you know it wouldn't exactly be be healthy for the baby, and um you know if i'm put in a uh in you know the sole caregiver position uh like it's i'm responsible for for helping her assisting her to go to bed you know i i kind of have a short short, short patience, um, with, with that process. Um, and I mean, thank, thank goodness my wife is, uh, always willing to, to, to do the extra work and like, I'll, I'll tap out if it's too much. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I, I, I believe I, I said, um, I, I, I just get these, these impulses to, to silence her, you know, by force.

[1:47] Well, listen, it's a super brave thing to admit, and I really admire your courage in talking about this stuff. Because, I mean, this is not what you're expecting, I assume, and it's tough stuff to talk about. But, you know, just genuine and deep admiration for having the courage to talk about this. I really, really admire that. I just wanted to sort of say that up front.

[2:06] Dark Impulses and Childhood History

[2:06] Now, when it comes to the sort of impulses that you have, have, I mean, let's just start full dark. Let's just go right down to the basement, right? So what are your thoughts? Like, what are your impulses regarding your daughter?

[2:24] Um, well, you know, one, one way to soothe her is to kind of like rub her forehead and, you know, sometimes it's like the Jedi mind trick or something. Cause you know, I waved my hand in front of her and her eyes were closed, but, um, you know, I have, uh, you know, just placed, placed my hand over her head. And, you know, babies are so tiny, they have such tiny heads, you can kind of fit their whole head in your hand. So, you know.

[3:02] I think I get it. Yeah, I think I get it. So what's your age range? Are you in your 30s, 20s?

[3:12] Me and my wife, we're both 34. four uh like i said um in in the email my baby's almost four months we have like a week a week to go okay.

[3:24] And how long have you been married.

[3:27] Uh well technically we we never even got married um but we've been together for for about six or seven years okay.

[3:37] Got it and And what had you wait so long to have babies? And look, I'm not saying that it's some big, terrible disaster. I'm just curious. You know, if you wanted kids, you would have had them, I assume, in your 20s. And was there a reason why you waited six or seven years to have a kid, or I guess five to six years before you started trying?

[4:03] It's a great question. um i didn't like like uh i i met my wife uh when i was like 28 and we met at work um and, you know um when i met her uh i i was a lot more rough around the edges um, um i still a lot of work to do um on myself and you know she was in a relationship with with another man uh but you know I still decided to pursue her but we you know and it was very toxic in the first few years I would I would say you know I was certainly verbally abusive towards her.

[5:03] And, uh, I mean, eventually, uh, I kind of started to, to kind of put myself together and she stuck with me, uh, a lot of the way through all that. Um, but, uh, it, I, I guess it was like, I mean, I, I'm very aware that having children late is, is not a, not the best for, for the baby's health. And, um, and I knew we had to get going. So, uh, I, I, I'm sorry. I'm rambling. I don't really know. Um, you know, uh, uh, I'm not sure.

[5:49] Got it. Okay. And how did you get her away from the other man?

[5:54] Oh, it wasn't, it wasn't that difficult. um honestly um because he they were together for like seven years and they were just not in a good relationship he preferred to drink all the time and he really wasn't going anywhere um he wasn't giving her attention um but.

[6:18] You were verbally abusive too.

[6:20] Yeah yeah i'm sorry you're the The upgrades.

[6:23] Like, I don't mean to say, like, there's some big negative thing here, but, you know, the verbal abuse ain't great, right? No, sir. I took her away from this bad guy and yelled at her.

[6:34] You're right. That's 100% true.

[6:37] Delayed Parenthood and Toxic Relationships

[6:38] So she's got a bit of a bad boy thing. Is that fair to say? Sorry, I don't mean to diminish it, but it seems that might be the case.

[6:45] It certainly, I never thought about it, but that certainly might be true.

[6:49] So how did you get, did you say, you know, he's a loser, I'm the guy, or how did you, how did you pry her out of that? Because seven years, I mean, they were basically married, right?

[6:59] Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, I said, he's a loser, I'm the guy. You know, I guess now that I think about it, it wasn't exactly too much of a difference between the two of us, you know. But yeah, not at the time anyway.

[7:17] Got it. Okay. Okay. I appreciate that. And... What is your history with violence as a kid?

[7:34] As a child, I don't remember large parts of my childhood, but I wasn't beat or anything like that, at least not often. I remember when I was very small, before my mother and father divorced, if me and my older sister were being disciplined, it'd kind of be like a big show and a lot of tears involved and my father would get the belt out. and even then i you know i i kind of feel like it was more for them just like that made them feel better.

[8:21] To have me you sir you you've been you've been fog of the day so far that's really that's really murky a can't remember much uh of my childhood or large parts b i wasn't beat well not that often and c there were a lot of tears involved but i don't know who's right so if you You could just be more specific. I'd appreciate that. So you were beaten. I mean, saying not that often. I mean, to me, that's like saying, well, I'm not a murderer. I mean, I've never killed. Well, not that often. Right.

[8:51] Yeah.

[8:52] So you were beaten and I'm, you know, I fully accept that it wasn't that often, but how often was not that often?

[8:59] Um, well, like, like I said, um, it was more of a show, like they, they wanted to see us us scared and crying and begging them not to hurt us.

[9:11] So it was kind of sadistic.

[9:13] Yeah, certainly. Certainly. I mean, I don't think there's that much depth to my father, but I do think he enjoyed that aspect of it.

[9:27] Okay. You know, you still haven't answered my question though, right? Do you remember what it was?

[9:31] How often was.

[9:33] There you go yes.

[9:34] Sir um i don't i don't i don't think that often i um i mean i'm sure it happened um but i i can't say of.

[9:46] Course you can you can say daily it's not daily obviously that would be very often it was it was was it like every year maybe once a year maybe once every five years was it two times was it five times was it like there's got to be some Some range that we could talk about.

[10:01] It was probably five times.

[10:06] Okay, so five times. So if there was this ritual, this crying, would you be crying?

[10:10] The ritual, I apologize to cut you off, the ritual probably happened more than that. But it was, you know, if we were ever actually hit, it was probably just like five times.

[10:20] Okay, and how often would the ritual, I guess if you showed enough sadness and tears and crying or whatever, then you would be let off the hook, is that right?

[10:29] Yeah, that's how it worked.

[10:30] And how often would the ritual happen.

[10:33] Um it was it was when i was very young um so i i don't exactly i mean i know i'm kind of it was probably like a weekly thing um a weekly thing so a weekly thing.

[10:47] You'd be threatened with the belt and have to weep and cry and gnash your teeth and submit right.

[10:52] Yeah but that that only had took place while my parents were actually together um because Because eventually they did divorce. And then, you know, it went from that.

[11:06] How old were you when they divorced?

[11:07] Effects of Parental Divorce

[11:07] I think I was six or seven.

[11:12] Okay.

[11:13] And do you know why they divorced? Well, my mother, when she was a child, she was abused. I think she grew up, I mean, I know she grew up in a foster home. There were allegations that the father of this foster home was touching the girls there. They only took girls.

[11:37] So she was in a foster home, was it because her parents were dead or just because it was so dangerous for her at home that it was better for her in a foster home?

[11:46] That's unknown. She's never really disclosed anything about her.

[11:51] Well, of course, she doesn't have any contact with her parents, I assume. Otherwise, you'd know at least that they weren't dead.

[11:56] Yeah, she claims her father killed himself, but I'm not sure the whole story.

[12:03] And do you have any idea, did she go into the foster home because her father killed herself, or was it sometime afterwards?

[12:10] I have no idea, to be honest with you. I know they were given up or something. It was her and her brother.

[12:16] Traumatic Childhood and Family Background

[12:17] Oh, so her parents gave them up?

[12:19] Yeah, I think the mother did.

[12:23] And how old were you when your mother told you that her father had killed himself?

[12:27] Pretty early. Pretty young. Maybe before I hit double digits. You know, she was very open about a lot of things with me and my sister.

[12:39] Very open? You don't even know if her parents are alive? You don't even know if her mom's alive? What do you mean she's pretty open? Am I missing something here? She like knows you. Here, count the hairs on my armpits because I'm pretty open. Can I find out about grandma? No.

[12:57] She'd just like to tell us, you know, sometimes unsavory things about...

[13:05] Oh, so she was like a traumatic sharer. She was like a sadistic sharer.

[13:09] Yeah, sure.

[13:10] Okay, so both your parents have this sadistic elements, it seems to me. I mean, confirm or deny if I'm on the wrong path, but that's...

[13:17] I, you know, certainly. I agree. Okay.

[13:23] And so, sorry, I'm not sure if we got to why your parents.

[13:28] Oh, you know, being with a woman like that is is, you know, once a lady decides she doesn't want to be with you anymore, she's going to raise hell and kick up hell. And she was already a drinker, heavy drinker throughout, you know. The marriage. Marriage. Uh, and, and I, they would just get into these, drop them down, kick, you know, like big fights all the time. Um, and again, being my sister would put on a big show, we'd scream, we'd cry and we'd beg them to stop fighting, stop fighting. Um, and you know, the first time the novelty of it, it probably worked, you know, but like eventually it stopped working. Uh, I believe my mother claimed that my father, uh, hit her and she had pictures of the bruises and all this it was a it was a big family drama but eventually uh you know she she ran him off you know um so they so they went their separate ways and.

[14:32] When you say she ran him off does that mean you didn't have much contact with him afterwards.

[14:36] I i did have contact with him you know he he was always uh talking about getting custody of us and this and that and she was She wasn't good. And I think he ended up getting every other weekend. So I would see him, you know, every other weekend. Or, you know, but what he would do when we were, you know, when that first happened is he kind of fell into the bottle too. And when he would pick us up, we'd go drive to the bar. And he would have, you know, he called them sprites. He would have sprites at the bar where me and her just sat in the car or whatever. Then we'd drive home.

[15:20] Wait, your dad would pick you up, you'd sit in the car, he'd go drinking, and then he'd drunk drive you home?

[15:25] That's right.

[15:26] My God.

[15:28] My mother, she would have a big gulp and just fill it with wine. I remember I was old enough to have a cell phone, so I don't know how old I was. But I remember thinking, like, I'm dead, dude. Like, this is it. And I was like, I wrote a little note in the cell phone. I said, hey, you know, I'm dead. It wasn't anything deep to the note. I was just like.

[15:54] Okay, you can't try and chuckle me in this, right?

[15:57] Yes, yeah.

[15:58] I mean, you've probably heard this a million times at the call-in shows where people talking about the most fucked up stuff. Like a child who thinks he's going to die and you're giving me that chuckle. That chuckle. And listen, I know that most people are like, ha ha, isn't that funny what kids think? Kids do the craziest things. But that's not here, right?

[16:16] Yeah.

[16:16] I mean, this is horrible. So why, you said your mother was drinking wine in a big gulp. Why was that what made you think, or was it something else that would make you think you were going to die?

[16:29] Uh, you know, she, uh, she's, she's crashed her car before from drinking and driving, you know, like the alcohol was such a big thing, uh, for her. So I, you know, I, I knew it impaired her ability to drive, you know, that was, I was well aware of that.

[16:48] Oh, so like every time you're in the car with mom, it's like make, making my peace with Jesus.

[16:54] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[16:58] Childhood Suicidal Thoughts and Family Dynamics

[16:59] And do you remember roughly how old, I have to say roughly now because I understand it's foggy, but do you remember roughly how old you were when you began to think that your parents were going to kill you one way or another?

[17:11] It had to be before I was 10. So I would say like 7, 7 to 10. And it was probably around this time, too, where I just, you know, I started to not want to be around anymore. I started wanting to die. And, I mean, thank God there was no cell phones like smartphones around back then. Because all I could manage was wrapping a belt around my neck and pulling on it. And, you know, that's not going to do anything. So, I mean, that was...

[17:46] Yeah, but you can kill yourself with a belt, can't you?

[17:49] Sure, sure.

[17:50] I mean, if you hang it someplace. I don't want to give instructions, right? But I think you can. If I understand this correctly, I think it happened. This is one of the reasons why you can't have a belt in prison, right?

[18:01] Yeah, yeah, of course.

[18:02] Thus giving a saggy pants fashion forever and ever. Amen. So while you were still in single digits, you are thinking of killing yourself, right?

[18:14] Yeah, yeah.

[18:16] Now, was there any particular incident that gave you those thoughts, or was it that accumulation of stuff bit by bit?

[18:25] Even even when i was a child i like i would have this brain fog about my mother and i would like i had a book a textbook from school and i remember one time writing in the textbook like don't forget you hate mom you know because i would keep forgetting uh, that you know every time i interacted with her i you know i would just the experience would be would be so horrible for me that um I.

[18:57] So tell me about an interaction with your mom that gives you the suicidality or the horrible feeling or the hatred. What sort of interactions are you thinking of?

[19:08] When that whole thing with the belt and the suicide ideation took place, I wasn't talking to anybody for like weeks. I would go to school and I didn't have any friends or I didn't talk to anybody. And I would go home and, you know, everyone was doing their own thing. So I wouldn't talk to anyone. It would go on for like a week. So, you know, I was kind of neglected by her. And, you know, again, I can't exactly remember. remember when when you speak about you know neglect it kind of it uh you know i i kind of i don't know how to say vibe with that you know i kind of get that but it's hard for me to to explain what she would do um to me because it's an absence.

[20:07] Right like she's just not talking to you.

[20:08] Yeah right.

[20:11] Okay and how did things sorry was it a brother or sister that you had sorry i.

[20:19] Had a half i had an older older sister and how much.

[20:25] Older and what was your relationship like with her.

[20:27] Well she's she's two years older than me um or maybe it's just a year I think it's just a year older and you know it was okay, you know because we survived all that all that together but eventually you know but you said no one talked to you, yeah well that she started getting friends and she was much more she was better at having friends than I was so she would use that it's her escaping you know oh.

[21:05] So she just kind of bailed and said.

[21:06] Yeah i might.

[21:08] My friends matter but i'm not going to talk to my brother.

[21:10] Yeah and i don't i don't blame her for that sorry why don't.

[21:14] You blame her for that.

[21:15] You know it's just if she could get out and escape you know that situation through that i guess you know i was i was playing video games all day so that's how i tried to to, no sorry I'm so let's say.

[21:30] You're what so at what age did she start going and hanging out with friends more.

[21:36] Um And I guess it really took place when she hit her teens.

[21:45] Okay, so she's like, what, 14 or 15, and you're 12 or 13, right?

[21:51] Yeah, sure, sure. Well, actually, when I was 13, I went to live with my father. So it had to be before that. Okay.

[21:58] So she's not always out with her friends. Why, as the older sibling, can she not talk to you? Now, the video games thing is not an excuse, right?

[22:07] Yeah, yeah.

[22:08] So why, you say you don't blame her for spending time with friends. Okay, well, I understand that. I mean, she could have theoretically brought you along a little bit, unless it was like some old girl power camp or something.

[22:20] No, I was, you know, I was the tag along. I wasn't, you know, cool.

[22:27] Well, I know, but you're family. Sorry. It's funny, you know. I'll come to that later. Okay, so why couldn't she talk to you? When she was home.

[22:39] I suppose there's not really a reason. You know, she would make me food sometimes. But one time, like, she spilt the boiling pot of ramen on her leg. And, like, it was pretty nasty. Like, burnt her leg up. So, you know, I mean, I think.

[23:02] Was that, like, a permanent scar? I knew it was.

[23:04] Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, you had to scrape the skin off. Like, and it didn't even give you any anesthesia or anything. So she'd go to the doctor for months and they would just, they would have to scrape, you know, scrape her leg down.

[23:18] So back to the chuckle, right?

[23:20] Yeah. Yeah.

[23:24] Sister's Influence and Social Skills

[23:25] And what's your relationship like with her now, or how has her life played out as a whole? Or both.

[23:33] Well, she kind of, you know, she went to, for a while, sorry. Well, she, for a little while, she was into, one of her boyfriends was into, like, libertarianism. And, you know, she was, like, believed in that. those kind of those views but then she went like hardcore feminist uh lefty and you know i, when i was a kid i i fell into some of these other uh you know i thought i thought like, being a skinhead was cool and and and all this other stuff you know i was just looking for for, for somewhere to, to, to belong. And so we, we kind of had that divide and just, just being exposed to, you know, the internet and having, and, and, and, and, and having the access to information that's not, not censored. I don't know what I'm trying to say. My opinions on things clashed with everything. She thought about everything, you know, and I told, I told I told her and my mother when I was like 11 or 12 or something, you know, I was like, I'm going to find a girl from a different country who, you know, knows how to treat a man. You know, like I got to, you guys are horrible to men. I don't know. I'm just raving.

[25:03] Sorry, you guys being your sister and your mother?

[25:06] Yeah.

[25:06] And how old were you at that time?

[25:09] It had to be like 11 or 12.

[25:13] Okay. So you were angry or upset with your sister at that point, right? right?

[25:17] Yeah. Yeah. I guess I guess that's true.

[25:19] So help me understand the, I, it seemed to me there was something along the lines of, I understand I don't have a problem with, with what she did.

[25:31] Yeah.

[25:31] As a kid.

[25:32] Yeah. I mean, I just, you know, it's, uh, to, to go through, to go through all that. It's hard to, to come out and, um, You know, to not be, excuse me, to be, you know, not culpable.

[26:02] I'm sorry, who's not culpable here? Your sister?

[26:06] You know, I'm sorry. You know, it's a tough situation. So, you know, sometimes you don't make the best decisions. And I certainly didn't either.

[26:27] Okay, so you understand why I'm a little baffled here.

[26:30] Yeah.

[26:30] Why am I a little baffled here?

[26:36] I'm jumping all over the place.

[26:37] No, it's not because of that. Because you're so full of forgiveness and understanding, but you feel aggressive and violent towards your four-month-old baby. Like, what the hell? Like, why does your sister get all of this understanding and compassion? And, you know, well, it was a tough situation, and I don't have any issues. And then you're like, but I've put my hand around my baby. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's crazy. And I don't mean you're crazy. I just mean that this is like...

[27:06] No, I know.

[27:07] Like, what? You forgive your sister, but you're enraged at your baby.

[27:14] Childhood Feelings and Family Dynamics

[27:14] Yeah.

[27:15] How about you forgive your baby for nothing, for being a baby? And get mad at your sister or someone because it ain't your baby, right?

[27:25] Yeah.

[27:26] Okay. So what's going on with you and your sister? Because she was older, right? Yeah. And she had also better social skills, by which I assume she was pretty.

[27:42] Of course.

[27:42] Yeah. Okay. So good social skills. Look, I'm very comfortable with people. It's like, well, yeah, because they like you because you're pretty. girls and boys alike right so she had some kind of entree into social life right yep and she just tossed you off the bus didn't she sure.

[28:01] Sure definitely i agree.

[28:03] Okay so now okay i get the tag along thing i understand you know all of that but why not teach you some social skills or notice that you're lonely or notice that you're isolated or come talk to you for five fucking minute today.

[28:20] Yeah.

[28:21] Now you say, oh, well, yes, but she was only 13. And it's like, I understand that. But it's not impossible for 13-year-olds to have some basic human compassion, is it?

[28:35] No, no, you're right. You're right.

[28:38] So your mom's a complete train wreck. Yeah. And dangerous. And, you know, there's a murderous, drunk driving, especially with kids in the car, has a murderous element to it, in my view.

[28:48] Yeah yeah of course i.

[28:50] Mean it's terrifying for the children and they kill other people on a regular basis right of course and themselves yeah which okay so, your sister is fleeing the burning building of your household and it seems to me and correct me if i'm wrong wouldn't your experience be that she was just she didn't give a shit about you and was just leaving you behind sure wait i'm not sure what sure means because that sounds like okay as opposed to do you agree or not i want to i don't want to be right i.

[29:25] Agree i do agree.

[29:26] Okay now here's here's a kind of dichotomy that we have right so we have our experiences as children right yeah and then we have our adult understanding and and so you can like as a kid you probably probably felt pretty angry and abandoned by your sister. Now, as an adult, you say, well, but it was a tough situation, and she was escaping, and I can understand this, and I can understand that. But that does not address the feelings you had as a child.

[30:04] Yeah.

[30:05] Right? So what we do is we say, well, as a child, I was angry. But as an adult, I understand the situation, and it's complicated, and there's this, and there's that, and there's the other, and ah, right?

[30:15] Yeah.

[30:15] But that just simply erases the feelings of the child of being angry and hurt and abandoned. Because as a child, you put your sister and your mother into the same category, right? Because at the age of 11 or so, you're saying, I'm going to another country, find women who don't treat men like crap.

[30:41] Yeah.

[30:41] And you said that to your mother and your sister, right?

[30:44] Yeah, both of them.

[30:45] Right. Were you and your sister threatened as much, or did your father have more of a problem with her or more of a problem with you? you um.

[30:55] Once once um they were separated he kind of well actually i mean.

[31:03] No no no but when you were threatened as you said from they separated when you were six or seven but before that you were threatened weekly and only beaten a couple of times but yeah were you and your sister threatened were you both usually in the same threat theater or what uh.

[31:18] You know just of course it's it's Sometimes it's together. It just depends on who was causing mom to be upset at the time, I suppose. Yes.

[31:32] Oh, so it was your mom who was upset and your father?

[31:34] Yeah, he was kind of like the enforcer, you know, if we made her upset.

[31:39] Oh, so your mom would provoke your father into these threat theaters, right? Right.

[31:43] Yeah.

[31:43] These struggle sessions. Okay.

[31:44] Violent Incident with Sister

[31:45] And, you know, it's so funny, you know, in your book, The Future, the one father describes his son who's more cerebral. He, like, sits back. He's just observing everything. everything he says like he was worried his his child was retarded and it's so it's i mean i guess it's not funny but my father described me the same way and i just i you know i was you know astounded that you know you could find that in a book somewhere but um but yeah at one time he was you know he he's big into the television so he'd come home from work and sit down and watch tv and my sister was annoying him so he like chucked the remote at her and it cracked her head open, you know that kind of head open.

[32:36] That's more than chucking.

[32:37] Yeah it was there was blood i i there was i don't think that there's i mean i know there wasn't any broken bones or anything but he broke the skin um wow so and i mean and if.

[32:49] She turned her head or something it could have gone in her eye and blinded her right.

[32:53] Oh yeah of course and i i use that today as justification classification. Uh, cause when I, whenever I confronted either him or my mother and said, Hey, listen, you know, cause I, I've been a listener of yours for a while. Um, so when I, when I did confront them and say, Hey, listen, I, I'm not happy about some of the stuff that happened when I was a kid, you know, my mother says, you know, you're lying. There was no abuse, this and that. And, you know, my father, he'll just say, well, I did the best I could, I don't think I did anything wrong, but you know, this and that I'm like, well, you, you threw a remote at my sister. I remember that. What do you call that? And, um, yeah, don't really get into that. I, well, I actually, I haven't actually said that to him. I mean, I've said other things.

[33:41] Oh, so in your mind and which is totally fine. Do you like, that's your, okay.

[33:45] I have expressed to him that like, Hey, like I'm upset about a few things. And then, you know, he gives me the whole, well, I did the best I could. And I don't think I did anything wrong. And I think I was pretty good. But later on, like, as now, I mean, I have to cut off more of our family members because they keep, hey, well, listen, this is your father. He just had a heart attack and this and that. I think you're going to regret if you don't reach out and talk to him. And I've given them both, you know, I've been very plain.

[34:15] Yeah, you've given them ample opportunity to make things right and to listen or even to show any curiosity.

[34:20] Yes, sir. Sure.

[34:21] Family Communication and Healing

[34:21] Okay. Boy, you should really listen to part 19 of Peaceful Parenting. I deal with this directly. I just put it out yesterday, so just do check that out. If you don't have the link, just let me know in Skype.

[34:35] I actually did listen to it already. I'm going to listen to it again.

[34:38] Okay. Okay. Good.

[34:39] Thank you.

[34:40] All right. It's a funny thing. There's two things I want to mention, and then I'll get back to the queries. The first is that, isn't it wild how totally wounded children can just sail through society and nobody gives a shit?

[34:54] Sure.

[34:55] Like you go to school, you're staring at the floor, you're hunched shoulders, you're not saying anything, you're not talking to anyone, and nobody cares. Yes. I mean, unless someone did intervene and say, hey, what's the matter? You seem quite down.

[35:10] It did happen at some point where I was going to a counselor.

[35:16] Sorry, how did you end up going to a counselor?

[35:19] I can't even recall. I was the kid in school who didn't speak to anyone and didn't talk to anybody.

[35:27] Oh, so somebody did notice and steer you towards a counselor?

[35:31] I guess, maybe. I don't know.

[35:33] How old were you?

[35:36] It had to be that 10 to 12 range.

[35:41] Oh, like post-divorce, but before you went to live with your dad.

[35:44] Yeah, and I was telling them, like, hey, my mom drinks a lot. And the counselor sent child protective services to the home. And, of course, they didn't, you know, we're not at a place where, you know, drinking a lot and neglecting your child is considered abuse. abuse so it's like.

[36:04] No they would they would i guess they would ask her do you drink and drive and she'd say yeah i would never like you know whatever yeah yeah and would they they interviewed your sister and your sister was like what well you wouldn't know what she said but i guess she didn't say enough for them to intervene at all right i.

[36:22] Would imagine she sided with my mother.

[36:24] With your mother yeah okay and you don't remember i'm sorry i just wanted to double check you don't I don't remember how you ended up in seeing a counselor.

[36:33] No idea. I mean, I might've said something, you know, wild that, that got me.

[36:38] Oh, you might've said like, I'm thinking of hanging myself or whatever.

[36:41] Right.

[36:42] And then they're like, okay. For liability reasons. Well, right. Yeah.

[36:45] Okay.

[36:46] And how long did you see the counselor for?

[36:49] Not long like after that kind of like you know you have a kid come to your office and he just sits there he doesn't say anything for like 30 minutes once a week you know it's just kind of you didn't talk to the.

[36:58] Counselor well you did say enough to say that my mother drinks a lot but then you.

[37:01] Sit there.

[37:01] And you wouldn't say anything is that right.

[37:03] I i i would like to imagine that's that's how it was but yeah it did say that much at least to her and you know eventually it didn't take too long after that for me to to go live with my father because things were just escalating with my mother so much you know escalating how well um we were just she didn't we were getting to disagreements i suppose she didn't like me as much anymore um like you.

[37:28] As much anymore.

[37:30] When did she like you before yeah oh so you've.

[37:33] Been are you hitting teen hormone storm and.

[37:35] Yeah skepticism.

[37:36] Escalating Tensions and Mother's Aggression

[37:37] And caustic aggression and and uh all of that yeah okay so you're starting to get your rage on, right?

[37:43] Yeah, yeah. And she, she, you know, she grew up in the city. She was on the streets. So she's a fighter, you know. And one time she was coming up to me. I knew she wanted to hit me or something. So I put my leg up to like, you know, kind of be a barrier between me and her as I'm sitting down. And she just like, she went, she slapped me. She's like, well, you were, you kicked me. So that was self-defense. I was like, okay.

[38:11] So, wait, how often would your mother hit you, though?

[38:13] I think that was just like the one time, like after that, I was like, I got to get the hell out of here.

[38:17] No, no, before that, though.

[38:19] Oh, before that?

[38:19] Because we talked about the threats and the beatings when you were, I guess, little kid, toddler to six or seven. And what would happen with your mother's violence between seven and you going to your dad's house?

[38:33] Yeah I mean it just wasn't it you know she would be doing her own thing or drinking or doing drugs and oh she did drugs oh yeah well that we actually ended up doing drugs together, uh later in life you know when i well you kind of buried in burying.

[38:53] The lead there man.

[38:53] I i mean we you know she she started with uh weed and then she slowly moved up to to doing heroin, um you know and she she actually found well you know she she would just let random people people into the home oh yeah i see no.

[39:16] Boundaries yeah yeah.

[39:17] She would no i mean she would let these random drunk losers into the home um but she wouldn't just when the guy she was picking to be with he was like the stooge he was going to pay for everything so she wasn't just willy-nilly about that you know she had to be someone she could control i'm sorry the guy.

[39:38] Would pay for for things.

[39:38] Oh yeah of course pay for everything so.

[39:41] She would basically exchange sex for money i don't want to be overly harsh but it.

[39:46] Sounds like that's.

[39:46] Sort of the setup.

[39:47] That was exactly the setup you know and she would uh divulge some of her her her sex her her sexy time with these men to us as children um but uh you know but they would pay for everything one of them took us on on this nice cruise uh you know how.

[40:07] How how pretty was your mom.

[40:10] She's you know beautiful woman beautiful woman and you know uh when you go through what she goes through as a child like she she learns how to to manipulate and to to you know the worst the worst the worst of things you know and you know these these knuckleheads would would wander into her you know venus fly trap and, and that was that but eventually she got pregnant again and, and um how.

[40:40] Old were you then i.

[40:41] Was 16 okay.

[40:44] So hang on let's go back to the heroin and mutual drug taking with your mom.

[40:48] Yeah that was your mom oh god that was the same time i was i was at 16 when she started getting heroin and um and uh like she kicked that she got rid of that guy pretty quick and then she got rid of the baby too she put the baby.

[41:08] Up for adoption.

[41:09] No she just gave it to her father which is worse worse than an adoption she gave.

[41:15] It to her father.

[41:16] Okay who was a terrible father to her she she I apologize for the confusion she gave it to the baby's father oh.

[41:25] The baby's father okay so the The.

[41:26] Father.

[41:27] Not her father. Okay, got it.

[41:28] Yes, sir.

[41:32] Is this the heroin guy?

[41:35] No, the heroin guy came after him. Okay. And he left too soon eventually because, you know, those type of relationships kind of burn quick.

[41:45] Sorry, I thought you said she got rid of the heroin guy.

[41:48] Yeah. Yeah.

[41:51] And when did you start doing drugs with her?

[41:53] Probably around that same age, around 16. Like we'd be smoking pot or she would find some pills for me to take. And, uh, you know why I babysat my, my baby sister. Um, yeah, I would be high.

[42:07] She would drug you and then say, babysit yours.

[42:11] Yeah. And the baby was so good. Like, well, no kidding.

[42:14] It's got no bond.

[42:16] I don't, I don't know if the baby was, you know, like what she was doing to make the baby sleep so well, but you know, she was a little angel.

[42:23] Uh, well, Well, she may have been giving drugs to more than you.

[42:27] Yeah, yeah. No, I completely.

[42:29] So you smoked weed with your mother. Your mother gave you weed to smoke at 16 and gave you pills. I mean, what pills?

[42:40] I had surgery at that time. And the whole opioid thing was just kicking off. Sorry, surgery for what? I had scoliosis that developed around high school.

[42:54] Oh, is it a spine curl?

[42:56] Yes, spine curl. It was horrible because I was already in trouble making friends with people. And then you turn it to fucking, excuse my French, quasi-moto.

[43:10] The least offensive thing about this entire story is you drop it in F-bomb. I can't care less about that. And what's the source of scoliosis?

[43:21] I think it's genetic, and I pray my daughter doesn't get it. But they think it's genetic. They're not sure. I mean…, I don't know, to be honest with you. It could have just been me hunched over playing the computer all day. I mean, who knows?

[43:40] Okay, so you got the scoliosis, and you got the surgery, and then you had, I guess, pain pills after?

[43:46] They gave me 50 milligram Percocets, which is heavy duty, man. You were a kid still.

[43:53] Right? You were 16?

[43:54] Yeah, of course, of course. And I was popping them, and I loved them. It turned out I loved them. So, you know, heroin isn't that different from Percocets.

[44:05] Okay so that still doesn't add to me what.

[44:08] Yes was that.

[44:09] What your mom was getting you with percocet.

[44:11] Something akin to that um she said she didn't know what they were she found them in you know the hotel room she was cleaning so i could have so.

[44:20] Your mom gave you.

[44:23] Unidentified pills.

[44:24] She found while cleaning a hotel room.

[44:26] Yeah i just took them that's It's.

[44:30] I mean, obviously I don't need to tell you how completely corrupt that is.

[44:35] Yeah, it's nasty.

[44:36] Monstrous.

[44:37] I mean, you know, what she did to my sister was worse.

[44:41] Oh.

[44:42] Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, she would get older and she's like, why doesn't mom want me? You know, that's all she would scream and she would cry.

[44:53] Sorry, she would say, I didn't catch that. Why what?

[44:56] Why doesn't mom want me?

[44:57] Why doesn't mom want me? Okay.

[44:59] Yeah. Why can't I be with you, Mom? Please, let me be with you.

[45:04] Oh, because your sister was with you and your dad?

[45:08] She was with, this is my younger sister.

[45:15] Younger Sister's Emotional Struggle

[45:15] So when she got older, that's what she would say, when she was still with her father.

[45:23] Your youngest sister with her father, and that's not your father?

[45:27] No, no, different guy.

[45:29] And how much younger is your younger sister?

[45:31] She would have been 15.

[45:37] That doesn't tell me how much younger she is than you.

[45:39] I don't. I'm trying to think.

[45:44] Just roughly.

[45:46] Probably 10 years.

[45:48] Oh, 10 years. Okay.

[45:49] Yeah.

[45:50] Oh, so, sorry. This is the woman. Sorry, this is the girl that your mother had and then gave to the father.

[45:58] Yeah.

[45:59] Okay, so this is the sister who's saying, why can't I be with you, mom? Okay, sorry. Sorry, there's a lot of bodies flying around here.

[46:07] I'm confused and I apologize. Yeah, my older sister, she just hung out with my mom for the next few years. And she would throw parties and drink. And my mom would be there too. It was just like, it wasn't the best situation. But I mean, I guess it was what she wanted. So I don't know. and.

[46:30] How long did your mom give you these drugs and take drugs with you for.

[46:36] Um excuse me, i'm trying to think you know it lasted for for a few years you know i tried to avoid her a lot and you know she was her as her addiction intensified you know she'd be on the streets um, Um, I mean, eventually she, she cut it all out. She found another stooge and she blew up to like 300 pounds and.

[47:05] Oh my gosh. Hang on. So how old were you when she was on the streets looking for drugs, selling herself? What do you think was going on?

[47:14] 16, 17. Uh, yeah. I mean, probably, probably all that, you know, um, cause.

[47:19] And then when did she get clean and I guess replace the drug addiction with a food addiction?

[47:23] Maybe when I was like 20 20.

[47:28] And do you know what, was there a particular incident? Did she hit rock bottom or was there something that had her go clean?

[47:37] No, no idea. I never asked her. I mean, it's a pretty important question. It probably should have came up.

[47:42] That's just curious. And then she met a guy like another stooge. Was that when she was clean but not fat?

[47:49] I think she might have been fat.

[47:52] Okay, so she meets a guy. Did she marry the guy? How did she secure her income?

[47:56] Come man and his family were so pissed too because he had all he had all this money and this inheritance and this property which wasn't anything special you know it was kind of yeah.

[48:09] I know but the family's like you're you're getting.

[48:12] Together with.

[48:12] An obese recent drug addict.

[48:15] Yeah and my mom got it all when he passed i mean he had god how long.

[48:21] Did how long were they together before he passed?

[48:23] I don't know how long it took her to suck the life out of him. He was so skinny and frail.

[48:30] Was he much older?

[48:32] No, they were... Well, yeah, I guess so. He was probably closer to 60.

[48:39] And how long were they together before he died?

[48:41] Maybe like four years, I want to say.

[48:43] Oh, gosh. Do you know what he died of?

[48:46] I think it was cancer. Cancer? Yeah.

[48:52] Oh, maybe he was, he said he was skinny and frail, but he.

[48:55] He was a heavy drinker. He, he had, you know, when you're with a woman like my mother, when, I don't know, there's got to be something wrong with you for sure. Okay.

[49:07] And so how were your twenties?

[49:11] Well, eventually, I just cut out all the drugs and sat in my room and marinated for until I was like 28 when I was like, this is enough. I'm tired of being- What do.

[49:29] You mean marinated? Were you living with your mother?

[49:32] No, I was with my father.

[49:33] I'm sorry, your father.

[49:34] I just lived up in his attic, and I didn't really do anything with my time. I did go to college. but it took me like seven years to sorry what do you mean did yes sir you.

[49:44] Did you graduate i.

[49:46] Did graduate okay.

[49:47] And what was your degree in.

[49:48] Uh a social work okay.

[49:51] Okay right because you want to fix things.

[49:53] Um yeah so.

[49:55] What do you mean you marinated and.

[49:57] Like are you talking like eight years yeah i just stagnated i mean it took me it took me doing what nothing i mean i just played video games i mean uh of course of course my my porn uh addiction started when i was young very young but um you know i just watched porn and played video games and i mean went to college but college is you know a joke um so you basically got.

[50:20] Completely sucked in by scream vampires of the double-sided.

[50:23] Oh yeah porn and games right yep without a doubt all right.

[50:31] And how was your relationship with your parents over your 20s?

[50:36] Well, you know, my father was, you know, I suppose it was okay. I mean, we never really talked, which he did prove to me that he did have the potential to be interested in the things I did when I was wrestling in high school for a brief time. And he was there and he was talking to me and we were having the best, you know, he was like the father I always wanted. You know, he cared. He's like, oh, you got to do this next time. And he was at all my meets and everything. And, you know.

[51:05] Oh, I guess that gave him some status, right?

[51:07] It could possibly, you know.

[51:09] Okay.

[51:10] But besides that, you know, he really didn't talk to me too much.

[51:14] Did you date in your 20s at all?

[51:16] I did a tiny bit, you know, online dating. And of course it was, it was like one night stand type of situations. So, you know, it's not good for anyone involved and progressively as I got, uh, more, you know, like this genic and unhealthy, uh, you know, my, the ladies I'd bring home were, were kind of following suit with that. Uh, what do you mean? It's just, you know, less healthy, bigger women and, and, you know, less, uh, lower and lower standards, I'd say.

[51:56] Okay, got it. So you get to your late 20s, and then what?

[52:02] Then I said, hey, maybe wanting to be dead every day isn't the best. How about we try being happy?

[52:07] Oh, so you were, sorry, because I know you were talking about when you were in the single digits having that suicidal ideation, and that came back into your 20s, is that right?

[52:15] So that just was a permanent thing throughout my life, I suppose, until I hit 28, where that would kind of be comfort to me, thinking about not being here anymore.

[52:28] When did you first start listening to what I do?

[52:32] I think 2013 I was first exposed. I don't know the timeline exactly, but watching you pawn liberals on the internet was awesome. People would share it on the sites I would go to and be like, hey, listen to this guy. He's got all these thoughts and this and that.

[52:56] I like that as a tagline. Steph, he's got all these thoughts. That's a good tagline. I think that's my biography, all the thoughts. All these thoughts. Not those. Okay. Go on.

[53:07] Discovering Personal Growth Through Call-In Shows

[53:08] But when did you, so I guess you listened to some of the political staff or the debate staff and so on. Was there, was there anything that drew you to like the more personal staff or the life staff or the call and show stuff?

[53:20] Of course, the call and shows, uh, I love those, you know, that you were so, uh, insightful. Um, and, and you kind of like put the blame where, where it belongs, you know, on the, on the parents, um, you know, on the adults in the situation. And, but you also, you also gave responsibility to the person for their choices. You know, you're not a forever infant, you know, who gets to walk around and make dumb mistakes because what your parents did. So it was just like all that together was new. But of course, you know, it didn't really stick until more recently.

[53:58] But you said at 28, you got obviously sick and tired of, as you said, marinating. Yeah. What happened then?

[54:03] I just, you know, I just tried to change everything. I tried to get to the gym, go on walks, you know, trying to eat better, to just change everything. And to start reading, I started reading a lot. um and.

[54:19] Was there a particular moment or again that accumulation thing.

[54:22] Just an accumulation you know of all that time just every day wanted to to not be here but nothing ever got better so it was just like well this isn't this isn't working like let's let's do something else and.

[54:35] What were your games of choice in your 20s.

[54:36] Uh i well listen oh my god i have like Like, I think three and a half years of in-game time for World of Warcraft.

[54:48] Ah, yeah. That was the EverQuest part two, right? So that was the digital crack of a lot of that time, yeah.

[54:54] So I can't even imagine wasting three years of you're actually actively in the game playing it for three entire years.

[55:04] Was it social as well? I mean, was there... Yeah, because you like Leroy Jenkins stuff, right? You have other people that you're – it was voice chat, too, was it?

[55:15] Yeah, yeah, of course. And I was important wherever I was. And I was the guild leader and I was the raid leader, whatever little video game title.

[55:25] You were learning some skills, right? Some social skills, some leadership skills, some planning skills. I mean, it's not the worst thing to do.

[55:32] You know what? I didn't think about it like that. I like to think about it like that a lot more than how I was thinking about it. Thank you.

[55:42] Yeah, I mean, there's some things that you can learn, from video games that are actually useful in life and particularly the social games and the planning and all of that right yeah.

[55:52] Yeah of course.

[55:53] And the leadership and and the resource management and the you know right tools for the right job stuff it's it's i know honestly there's i mean you weren't on heroin right you were actually learning some some skills and you were having some kind of socializing right i mean you might not have made it otherwise without the video games you might not i'll be here.

[56:10] Oh no i yeah yeah certainly.

[56:13] Or or maybe it would have kicked you out early i don't know right but uh i wouldn't myself i mean i understand that's a pretty jaw-dropping amount of time but it is uh something that may have kept you alive and may have given you some some good social skills which i'm not sure how you would have gotten otherwise.

[56:30] Yeah yeah very true.

[56:32] Other than maybe joining some bizarre cult or something in which you know would have been much worse so So, yeah, I mean, you kick yourself if you want, but you got to look at the upside as well.

[56:41] And, you know, I actually can't take any credit. Well, I mean, I suppose I can, but what really got me to change everything was my father and his new wife were moving to a new state and they said, get the hell out.

[56:55] Transformation and Independence

[56:56] So, you know, once I was out of that situation and had to do things on my own, that's when I really started to improve.

[57:02] Prove so yeah this is just general shout out to parents don't let your kids rot in the attic for eight years or 10 years i guess 18 to 28 okay yeah it's just just a general thought you know just don't have a pulse in the house that you don't interact with that's not not a good thing all right okay so you're hitting the gym you're you're and what are you doing for money over this time period over the 20s?

[57:27] I was just working.

[57:30] So you weren't doing nothing. You did a job.

[57:32] I had some part-time jobs when I was in college, like at, grocery stores and then at one of those big warehouse stores.

[57:45] Okay, so you had some work, and I guess your living expenses were pretty low because your dad's paying for most of it, right?

[57:53] Yeah, of course. Of course. Okay.

[57:55] And not much interaction with your dad, you said, over the course of this time?

[57:59] Not much. Again, I was like the black sheep in the family because I had these edgy jokes and this edgy humor and edgy information that people didn't want to hear. Isn't it funny?

[58:13] They're totally accepting of the woman who gives drugs to her children, some unknown drugs to her children. That's fine, but you better not have an edgy joke. Yeah. Heroin addiction, yeah, we could roll with that. But you better not have an edgy joke, because we have standards, man. That's insane. I mean, it's quite common, right?

[58:36] Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[58:38] Torturing your children driving drunk no problem edgelord comedy big problem yeah, gabriel blow the trumpets all right.

[58:49] Um so.

[58:51] You uh you get your own place late 20s and then what this is roughly when you meet your wife to be.

[58:58] Yep i uh that's when i graduated from college too and started a new job i met her at work did you get the job.

[59:05] With your degree like a social work kind of thing.

[59:07] Yeah yeah okay um so i assume.

[59:12] This is the government government job.

[59:13] Yeah well you know so you're.

[59:15] A little little past libertarianism.

[59:17] At this point right yeah well you know it's it's you know working inside these facilities um you really get to see how much where the money goes and it just goes into the pockets of people on paper they say yeah well we're going to rebuild tate and then we're going to show them how to and we're going to do this and when you get there it's It's like, yeah, this is where they stay, and then they die, and we get a new person to come in and take their bed. It's like, whoa. It's eye-opening.

[59:47] I guess you were in a significantly gynocentric environment.

[59:52] Oh, yeah. I still am.

[59:54] Right.

[59:54] I still am. I mean, any day.

[59:56] You're like the pasha. Okay. You're like the salt.

[59:58] Yeah.

[59:59] Okay. Okay, so you meet your wife at work, and you start dating, and then I guess the relationship works out, and you now have a baby. I don't mean to fast forward. Is there anything you wanted to throw in there?

[1:00:15] No, sir. Right. I mean, you know, I, it was, I would say that if I could go back in time, she wouldn't be, uh, well, she might not be the woman I end up with. Um, you know, okay.

[1:00:30] And what's that?

[1:00:31] I just, you know, cause maybe I would have chose, we were so, we have so many differences and sometimes that's a good thing. But, um, you know.

[1:00:41] No, I don't know. You say, you know, I don't know.

[1:00:44] You know, it's just not when you talk about how you are with your wife and how you enjoy spending time with each other and how it's just it's just magic and all that great stuff is just not entirely my experience. You know, there's some arguing and some some work, and I know how horrible it is to argue in front of a baby. So that's I'm taking that off the table during her pregnancy. I did argue with her a lot, though.

[1:01:11] And what do you what did you argue with her about?

[1:01:15] Just just things that that that can't be changed at this point.

[1:01:19] No no no i don't need a description or abstractions what in specific did you argue with her about you.

[1:01:25] Know i don't like this behavior i don't like that behavior.

[1:01:28] Okay and what i can keep i can keep going as long as you want what behaviors what did you say what behaviors did you want to change in her um.

[1:01:38] I, I'm trying to think, I, I really, I, I go through these cycles where, you know, I'm happy as can be with her. She's perfect for me to where I'm looking for something to be upset with her about. And, um, I, I'm trying to give me more abstract. Oh, no, no. I'm going to, I'm going to focus.

[1:01:56] You must remember something you've criticized your wife about. It doesn't have to be during the pregnancy. Like, Oh, I don't know what you're fighting about or, or what the level of, of languages.

[1:02:06] Yeah. Yeah. I have, you know, harped on her for her weight and kind of her inactivity. I know you can't really, if you're not an active person before you're pregnant, then you shouldn't be while you're pregnant.

[1:02:24] And was she overweight before she was pregnant?

[1:02:27] Certainly. Certainly. Not as much as she is now.

[1:02:31] And how much overweight was she? Did she gain weight over the six or so years that you were dating?

[1:02:37] Yes, yes, yes.

[1:02:38] And how much weight did she gain?

[1:02:40] I think she was 180 pounds when we first met, 185. And now, well, during the pregnancy, of course, she gained some weight. So during that time, she was at 240.

[1:02:50] Weight Struggles and Relationship Dynamics

[1:02:51] I think she's now down to 230 or something.

[1:02:54] How tall is she?

[1:02:55] She's 5'3".

[1:02:56] Oh, my gosh.

[1:02:58] Yeah.

[1:03:00] Oh, my gosh. Okay, so how much did she weigh? I guess this may be the penalty of the porn-laced chubby chasing in your 20s, I don't know, but how much did she weigh when you met her?

[1:03:11] Probably around 180.

[1:03:13] Okay, so she didn't gain much weight over the course of your dating, right?

[1:03:20] No. Okay.

[1:03:23] Okay. And she gained 60 pounds over the course of pregnancy? pregnancy uh.

[1:03:31] Well she no it was she probably only gained like i think she gained like 25 pounds when she was pregnant.

[1:03:36] Sorry i thought she i thought she went from 185 to 240 yeah.

[1:03:41] That was that was over the six year period um where we were together and and ah.

[1:03:48] Sorry don't understand okay so i i thought i said so she you meet her she's 185 and how much does she weigh roughly when she gets it's pregnant?

[1:03:57] About 220.

[1:03:59] Oh, okay. Okay. So, she put on like a good 35 pounds over the course of your marriage, right?

[1:04:04] Yeah.

[1:04:05] Which is a lot for 5'3", right?

[1:04:07] Yeah, of course. Now, I'm no, I'm not, you know, no model myself.

[1:04:13] So, what's your height and weight?

[1:04:16] I'm 5'6". I think right now I'm 225. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:04:25] And is that all muscle?

[1:04:28] Uh, listen, I, I do like the gym. I do.

[1:04:32] Um, all you have to do is find a way for the gym to like you back. So what do you mean? So you like the gym? You're five, six to 25. Yeah. Unless you have to turn sideways to get through a door because if you're delts, I'm not sure how that plays.

[1:04:46] No, no. I certainly, I'm, I'm certainly at, or maybe above 30% body fat. Um, yeah.

[1:04:52] You think? Yeah.

[1:04:54] Yeah. But it's just to, I, I've actually, I, when I put on all this weight and I started hitting the gym, like people.

[1:05:04] No, hang on.

[1:05:05] Sorry.

[1:05:05] You started hitting the gym at 28, right?

[1:05:07] Yes, sir.

[1:05:09] And how much did you weigh then?

[1:05:11] I was probably, I mean, I was doing a starvation thing, uh, just for no reason. I just stopped eating and I got down to 120 pounds. And again, I stopped.

[1:05:21] Wait, 120? 120?

[1:05:22] Yeah, and I said, this isn't working out for me. How about we gain some weight?

[1:05:25] Wait, you, sorry. You got down to 120 pounds.

[1:05:31] Yeah.

[1:05:32] I mean, doesn't that seem kind of suicidal to you?

[1:05:35] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[1:05:37] So this is part of the don't want to live thing, right?

[1:05:39] Yeah, of course, of course.

[1:05:40] I mean, okay, sorry. I just wasn't sure if we were both on the same page.

[1:05:43] I mean, it makes.

[1:05:46] Yeah, yeah. Okay, so hang on. So you say more than 30% body fat. I just got to get your, I want to just get your BMI.

[1:05:54] Oh, it's, it's, it's, if it's not, uh, morbidly obese, I don't know if that's a category, but I'm, I'm pretty up there. I'm in the red, I think.

[1:06:02] Okay. So you've got five, you're five, six and two. What was it?

[1:06:09] Um, two 25, I'll say.

[1:06:11] Two 25. Okay. Yeah. Your BMI is 36.3. Okay. So, I'm no doctor.

[1:06:19] Yeah.

[1:06:20] But that's not good. Okay.

[1:06:22] No, no.

[1:06:22] Weight Gain and Gym Motivation

[1:06:22] Okay, so you've almost doubled your weight from this low point where I assume you could play xylophone on your ribcage. Is that right?

[1:06:34] Yes, sir. And, you know, it's just that when I started hitting the gym and I got bigger, I went from being like a target of someone who is bullied to not that, you know. So it is kind of addicting to not be someone people see and to be scared all the time and to be something that's more imposing.

[1:06:58] So how did you – did you gain the weight over the course of your relationship? What did you go from and to over the past seven years?

[1:07:08] I think I got up – when I met her, I was also at 180. um and then i just i just kept on eating i told myself i want to stop at 200 but uh you know uh i haven't obviously so and what.

[1:07:26] Do you think is going on.

[1:07:27] We i just unhealthy eating habits i understand that yeah i.

[1:07:33] Understand that gaining weight is the result of unhealthy eating habits but why why why at the end why are you doing unhealthy eating habits.

[1:07:40] Some of its It's intentional, intentionally overeating. Like, obviously, she loves to eat. She cooks. All the food is real, but the amount of food that we eat is, you know, obviously way more than a person needs.

[1:08:01] Have you tracked calories? How many calories are you eating a day, do you think?

[1:08:07] I would say at least 4,000 for me. Um, she's tracked calories when she's tried to lose weight before. And, uh, you know, I, I try and encourage her to do it again. Um, you know, to, cause we want to have, we want to try to encourage her. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:08:29] You trying to encourage her.

[1:08:31] So that kind of doesn't work out, I guess.

[1:08:33] Well, I mean, don't you have to model the behavior, right? Be the, be the change you want to see. I think you have to model that stuff, don't you?

[1:08:39] Yeah, of course.

[1:08:40] Okay. All right, and... Do you find each other less attractive? Is there lower sexual activity or lower romantic activity because of the weight, or is it not much of a factor?

[1:09:00] No, certainly it's an issue we struggle with. um of course you know me with the the porn addiction i i haven't i've certainly reduced it a lot um since since you know my awakening or whatever but it's it's it's still present and maybe it's only reduced because uh you know my libido is just not you know what it was when i I was 16 or whatever, but.

[1:09:31] Well, the weight, right?

[1:09:32] Yeah, of course, that too. And that has been also an issue. But, you know, I am aware of that. And I know in order to have like a healthy marriage with, you know, sex needs to be a part of it. So I do work on making sure that I'm intimate with her.

[1:09:51] So you're not in a sexless marriage. Okay.

[1:09:53] No, no, no.

[1:09:54] Good, good. I mean, obviously you got a kid, but. Yeah.

[1:09:57] Okay.

[1:09:57] Got it. so you uh bug her to lose weight is that right.

[1:10:06] Yeah and to get active yeah and you know sorry go ahead uh i i you know when my the the things i've learned from my mother to to like to manipulate and to to prod and to needle and to you know i i have all that um you know all those abilities and I certainly use them on her and what does that look like it's you know like poking at her insecurities or, Or just say, you know, sometimes I, you know, I don't I'm not sure because she's from a she actually is from a different country. She's from South America and her second language is English. So there's kind of like sometimes there's a barrier between communication between the two of us. and you know i don't believe she's as insightful as you know maybe i would have liked in a partner.

[1:11:14] Sorry you're you're kind of verbally manipulating her yelling at her and putting her down but her level of insight is not up to your standards yes sir what are you talking about yeah i mean Seriously?

[1:11:26] Verbal Manipulation and Abuse

[1:11:27] Yeah.

[1:11:27] Have some humility, bro.

[1:11:29] Yeah.

[1:11:30] No, really. Really. Have some humility. How dare you say that your wife's insights are not up to your standards?

[1:11:40] Yeah.

[1:11:41] When you said you verbally abused her at the beginning of the relationship, you're still manipulating her and putting her down, right?

[1:11:47] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:11:48] Acting like your mom around her and, oh, but her level of insight, you see, is just not up to my high lofty standards.

[1:11:55] Yeah.

[1:11:56] Like, what are you doing?

[1:11:57] Yeah.

[1:11:58] No, no, don't yeah, yeah, yeah me. Like, engage. What are you doing?

[1:12:01] I don't know. I mean.

[1:12:03] Yes, you do.

[1:12:05] I did. I tried to get rid of her early on in our relationship just by being horrible to her. And she just stuck around. So it's just like.

[1:12:15] You tried to get rid of her early on by being horrible to her. And how long into the relationship was that?

[1:12:21] It was years of it. Years, certainly.

[1:12:23] Wait, you spent years being horrible to her, trying to drive her away?

[1:12:27] Yeah, yeah. Why? Um... I don't know.

[1:12:36] Come on. Her level of insight is not up to your level of insight. So you must have a good level of insight. So why would you horrible to her? Why were you abusing her to drive her away for years?

[1:12:46] I'm struggling.

[1:12:47] Um, but you must've asked this question of yourself at some point.

[1:12:52] Oh, you know, I just, maybe, you know, maybe I didn't think she was the, the, the one for me. So I had to, to get rid of her and, you know, she would end up crying.

[1:13:04] Hey, I don't think you're the one for me, and we're broken up. I don't understand this trying to get rid of her stuff.

[1:13:09] And, you know, I have said that to her before as well. So, you know.

[1:13:15] Sorry, when did you say to her, you're not the one I want to break up?

[1:13:19] Probably so many times, including during her pregnancy.

[1:13:24] Oh, no.

[1:13:25] As sad as that is to say. I'm worried.

[1:13:29] No, it's not sad. It's malevolent.

[1:13:31] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:13:33] You said to a pregnant woman, you're not the one, I want to leave you.

[1:13:37] Yeah, yeah.

[1:13:39] What are you doing?

[1:13:41] I know.

[1:13:41] No, you don't know.

[1:13:43] Yeah.

[1:13:44] Because you don't even know why you're doing it. So you've been verbally abusing and neglecting and rejecting the entire course of the relationship, is that right?

[1:13:52] That's correct.

[1:13:54] Is she a masochist?

[1:13:56] Probably.

[1:13:58] Does it turn her on to be put down? I don't know.

[1:14:01] No, no.

[1:14:02] Women seem to like Fifty Shades of Grey. I don't know.

[1:14:04] Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, I do tell her, you know, I'm going to do better. I'm going to stop all this.

[1:14:18] No, but that's bullshit because you don't, right?

[1:14:20] Yeah, of course.

[1:14:21] Okay. I mean, unless there has been a big improvement. I don't want to be unfair.

[1:14:24] No, I wouldn't say, you know, just because this week I haven't argued with her doesn't mean I've made a big improvement. Okay.

[1:14:38] Traumatic Family History and Loss

[1:14:38] So what do you want from this conversation? What do you want from me?

[1:14:45] I wanted to, what's really been bugging me, Steph, is this, the thing that kind of woke me up up was, it was two years ago, it was 2021. I got a call from my sister, my older sister, and she said that my younger sister wrapped something around her neck and she hung herself in the bathroom. and it's just did she die? yeah she was she was 14, at that point I was an adult and I worked in I worked in social work and I knew she was being abused.

[1:15:51] Right and we were talking about older siblings helping out younger siblings now she's a half sister right.

[1:15:57] Yeah yeah okay.

[1:15:59] Were you in touch with your uh tell me about the history of your relationship with your parents and i'm sorry to interrupt this i just want.

[1:16:04] To know where that is regarding.

[1:16:06] This story from 2021.

[1:16:07] Uh well i did at that point um my father, so he moved away um and i moved out yeah when you're 28 right yes sir okay about two years later i'm 30 um he wants me to come move to his state he lives in he says come with me come live in my house why uh did.

[1:16:32] He want he didn't want you to come.

[1:16:33] Yeah he said then he wants you to come what changed the whole family's down there come here you know get out of there get out of that state um i i'm not sure what changed because we had we had a talking relationship over the phone that was that was adequate you know so he was like come over here and i'm sorry when did you confront your parents uh probably probably um 2022 oh so after your half sister.

[1:17:01] Kills herself of.

[1:17:02] Yeah yeah and my father before that actually but oh your mother was.

[1:17:08] 2022 yeah okay and when was your father.

[1:17:11] Um probably 2020 because we he i did end up going down there i took i took my wife i said hey i'm going down here if you want to come uh i promise i'll be better this and that wait so you mean.

[1:17:25] Was she your wife at this point.

[1:17:26] No i mean i'm just calling her my wife because you know so.

[1:17:29] You said to your girlfriend i'm leaving to go to another state i guess you can come if you want to yeah you.

[1:17:38] Know i did man you were cold i did promise i said hey i'll be better i'll spend time with you this and that um uh you don't spend time with her not i mean i still i still you know sit on my computer i don't always uh spend as much time with her as i as i should, okay all right so you say i'm gonna move if you want.

[1:18:01] To come along feel free.

[1:18:02] She comes along and i i in my head i'm thinking okay great i'm gonna teach my father all this stuff i learned and we're gonna have a relationship and you know before before you know sorry what stuff you've learned just uh oh eating healthy and walking and lifting weights and reading books and all this like all my my new like uh bigger for life i was i wanted to share that with him and of course i i got down there and it was you know none of that you know none of that was was actually happened um and he divorced his wife my stepmother so we were kicked out again um, And we were staying in hotel rooms and these nasty hotel rooms with meth users and all this stuff. But yeah, I mean, before that, before I got kicked out, I did confront him and I said, hey.

[1:18:59] And you're just basically back to the shit pits of your childhood in a way, right?

[1:19:02] Yeah, of course.

[1:19:03] Okay. Sorry, go ahead.

[1:19:04] And I said, hey, listen, I'm not happy. And that's when he gave me the whole thing where it was just like, hey, I did the best I could. and maybe i don't think i was that bad i think a lot of this stuff's in your head and you know, he's always insinuated i was crazy or there's something wrong with me so you know it's just what he he continued to do so after that packed up and left um and then after after my sorry where's your where's.

[1:19:36] Your wife in all of this is she going through the meth motels with you or.

[1:19:40] And she yeah Yeah. Yeah, of course. And, you know, she was very sheltered, very sheltered girl. When I first met with her, actually, she whenever I would curse, she'd be like taken back and she'd be like, please don't curse around me this and that. But she just wasn't used to it. So it was all like very shocking for her and scary to be alone like that and not have your your family around to help you. Um, and then I got the call in that one of those, those hotel rooms that my sister killed herself. Um, and, um, I still, I still was open, you know, at the funeral, I, you know, my mother was obviously a pariah, um, you know, and I, I couldn't let her be alone. so I did go sit next to her and I I was you know there for her and But but later on I said hey I, You know, I, she, once she found out my wife was pregnant, she was like, Hey, I'm going to come where I'm going to come live with you. I'll take care of your wife, this and that. And she was like trying to, I was like, Whoa, this isn't even a good idea to begin with. You know, I shouldn't be talking to you. Like you killed my, you killed my sister, you know?

[1:20:57] What, um, what was your relationship with your sister?

[1:21:00] It was, it, it was, she was, you know, uh, you know, kids, kids just want to, to be, to get attention, shouldn't be loved and and i i wasn't always the best uh you know if i did have to babysit her i would like keep her arms length it'll be a chore more than an enjoyment um certainly that and and then she also sorry.

[1:21:24] How old were you when you were babysitting her this is also when your mother was drugging you if i remember rightly.

[1:21:28] Yes sir but but that was only for a brief time at when she was was very young later on i would babysit her in my 20s so i was an adult at this point you know still still a child and how i played video games all day and watched porn but um i was you know i was above the age 18 um so oh but and then you know black lives matter happened and everything thing and and she fell into that movement um and of course everything i said was evil and this and that she she still like was curious um about me you know she wasn't like how my sister my mother were where i was like the devil but she was like hey well why do you you know think these things this and that um but it was distant and even she asked she asked me um before i left to to move the floor she's like hey you're gonna be leaving soon you know come see me and i was you know, i was i was scared of driving at the time so i just i didn't make that that trip to go see her and sorry what year was that that was that was probably 2020 2019 2019, You know, a.

[1:22:45] Year before she killed herself for two years.

[1:22:47] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:22:48] So she wanted you to come and see her, but you were not driving at the time.

[1:22:53] I was driving, but it was just the idea of having to drive on the highways to get to her was kind of frightening to me. It's just, it wasn't a good, it's not good reason. You know, I could have had my wife driver or anything.

[1:23:05] Yeah.

[1:23:05] Take the bus, anything, anything. Um, and then even the, the week, and there was always this fantasy in my head. I'm going to get on my feet, I'm going to get this place, and I'm going to take her away from the house she's in right now where she's being – her neglect was worse than mine. And the father started a new family, and she was obviously a needy six-year-old, and the baby needed attention, so they would keep her locked in the downstairs part of the house away from her. She was bullied and –.

[1:23:41] They locked her in the basement?

[1:23:42] It essentially is like the bottom part of the house. They wouldn't let her up to be around the baby and to be with the rest of the family. Yeah.

[1:23:51] My God. Yeah. And she was, how long was she with her father for?

[1:23:56] Um, she was with her father until, until she passed. They would, you know, the police would be out there every week.

[1:24:05] Why would the police be out there?

[1:24:08] Just because she, instead of just what parents do these days, instead of just giving your child love and listening to them and being there for them, they choose to not do that. And she was uncontrollable in the way where they weren't able to give her those things. So she had behaviors and maybe acted out.

[1:24:30] Sorry, why would the police out there? It's so abstract. Why would the police out there?

[1:24:34] Well, what parents do nowadays when their child's running around.

[1:24:38] Was it drugs? Was it partying?

[1:24:41] It was just screaming. It was just her running around screaming and having the neighbors, hey, there's a kid screaming over here. Come, you know. And so the police have to respond.

[1:24:49] And do you know why she was screaming?

[1:24:51] You know, just because they would have arguments and he would take her iPad or whatever from her. And, you know, when that's your only source of entertainment, it kind of means a lot to you, I suppose.

[1:25:03] Okay. Okay. And do you know, did she do any drugs or?

[1:25:06] I don't believe so. I mean, she eventually started going to the city with my mother when she was older, but she, you know, killed herself soon after that. So I don't know.

[1:25:17] Sorry, she started going to the city?

[1:25:20] Yeah, to a nearby city where my mother is staying. And she started to go there.

[1:25:28] Oh, so she got in touch with your mother and then after that, not necessarily because of that, but after that she killed herself.

[1:25:34] Yeah, of course.

[1:25:36] Sorry, when you say of course, I'm not sure what you're saying of course to.

[1:25:39] No, I'm just saying it. I apologize.

[1:25:42] Oh, that's fine. And do you think that if you had a place to take your sister, do you think that your father would have released her?

[1:25:54] Her father? It's a possibility. It's never been talked about, I think.

[1:26:00] No, no, I mean, just, do you think?

[1:26:03] It's a possibility, sure.

[1:26:06] Because, I mean, if the police are coming by every week, and she's screaming, and whatever, right?

[1:26:12] He wanted to get rid of her, and he also didn't.

[1:26:15] Well, not get rid of her in that sinister way, but just, you know, like, her have a place to be and cool off.

[1:26:21] Yeah and she ended up going to some of those you know uh psychiatric facilities that they they have set up um so she probably.

[1:26:32] Was on some pretty heavy drugs i.

[1:26:34] Mean not illegal moment could be and.

[1:26:37] So you had this how long did you have the fantasy or or the idea or the ideal of rescuing your sister oh.

[1:26:45] I mean you know intentions i had the intention of doing it uh since since i was an adult kind of it just never you know intentions don't mean anything unless you you actually act on them so so.

[1:27:00] You spend three and a half years in warcraft but you can't find a place for your sister.

[1:27:04] Yeah sorry.

[1:27:07] I can hear some background noise i'm not sure if you're.

[1:27:09] Playing i'm playing playing with things. I apologize.

[1:27:17] And did you have a sense of escalating crisis with your sister before she killed herself, or was it a complete shock?

[1:27:26] It was a shock. I mean, you know, she was just pushed aside. She's been pushed aside so long, it's just something to be dealt with and to oh, we had to deal with her. I mean, it was It was a shock, of course.

[1:27:40] And she did want to see you and spend time with you, right?

[1:27:42] Yes, she did.

[1:27:43] And how much time did you end up? I mean, there was a time you didn't drive, but was there phone calls or, I don't know, video calls?

[1:27:52] There was maybe once a year there was a phone call. She did come down to spend Christmas with us the year before she killed herself.

[1:28:06] And how was that?

[1:28:07] It was lovely. It was lovely because I understood at that point, at least a little bit, that children, everyone's talking to her like an adult. They're like, she has this problem. She has that problem. She needs to fix this. She needs to fix that. I'm like, well, she's a child. So how about we just talk to her like a child and see how.

[1:28:29] So how long was she with you?

[1:28:32] Just about a week.

[1:28:36] And is there a reason why she couldn't stay longer? I mean, I know she's got school and all of that, but, you know, you can remote that stuff. You can, right? There's a lot of different options. I mean, how did you feel about sending her back?

[1:28:49] No, no, no real reason. I didn't really feel anything. You know, it was just back to the norm, you know.

[1:28:55] But you have this whole want to rescue her for like 10 years, right?

[1:29:00] Yeah, yeah.

[1:29:01] So she's with you.

[1:29:02] Unhealthy Relationships and Neglect

[1:29:03] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:29:04] What happened to the rescue her thought?

[1:29:07] I just wasn't, I wasn't ready. You know, I wasn't on my feet, this and that.

[1:29:11] I don't know what that means. That's just a bunch of words for me.

[1:29:14] I know.

[1:29:14] What happens? Like you got this fantasy.

[1:29:16] Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is, this is when we were, I would mean my wife were at my.

[1:29:22] Sorry, if you could please stop playing with the stuff in the background.

[1:29:24] It's really distracting. Throw it away from me. Sorry.

[1:29:27] I just, I mean, I'm really trying to give you a lot of attention here and I really appreciate it if it wasn't distracting clicking sounds.

[1:29:32] In the background yes sir okay um, i um i was at that that was when me and my wife moved in with my father again his his uh his wife so you know it wasn't really my another state yeah so it wasn't really my decision to to keep her since i didn't own the place not that i would have but.

[1:29:58] You and your wife both.

[1:29:58] Have jobs.

[1:29:59] At this point right.

[1:30:00] Uh i we were getting the the money from the government uh during the covet handouts so oh because the.

[1:30:08] Social work field was closed down.

[1:30:10] No just because if you i mean if you quit your job, during that time if you just weren't working they would just give you give you money you know it was wild um and we were getting paid better than what i was making when i was working just they were We're just paying people to not just be home.

[1:30:28] So you and your wife both quit your jobs to get government money. Is that right?

[1:30:33] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:30:34] So you had enough money to put your... your sister up and not move in with your dad right yeah yeah so why did you move in with your dad, um i'm not i'm just i'm genuinely curious i'm not trying to be some big critic here i've just you're making tons of money from the government for free so why do you need to move in with your dad that.

[1:30:56] Was just a plan you know we'd go move to this new state it was supposedly better there economically and um you know all the families there so i would go down so so we moved down there and you know eventually the intention was to to take her once I had my own place in a job.

[1:31:16] Sorry didn't you have your own place in the state that she came to you over Christmas no.

[1:31:21] No I was I was with my father so she was staying there with me my wife my father oh.

[1:31:28] I see I see okay yeah and why were Were you staying with your father at that point rather than having your own place? Because both you and your wife have professional jobs, right?

[1:31:41] She, I have a job. We didn't have jobs then. We were just getting government money.

[1:31:47] No, no. But before that, you quit those jobs to get the government money.

[1:31:51] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So why wasn't she with us before that?

[1:31:56] No, no. Why didn't you have your own place? I mean, you're in your 30s, right? Yeah. Okay, so you're in your 30s. You have a good job. Your wife has a good job. Why are you living with your dad?

[1:32:09] You know, just to start new in that new state. You know, it was obvious.

[1:32:15] No, no, no. Sorry. Yeah. Maybe I'm missing something.

[1:32:18] I apologize.

[1:32:19] No, it could be me. So your sister came to stay with you and your wife while you were living with your father. Was that before your father moved to the new state?

[1:32:30] That was after.

[1:32:31] Oh, after. Okay.

[1:32:32] Childhood Neglect and Abuse

[1:32:33] Yes, sir.

[1:32:33] Okay. So your sister came to stay with your husband, sorry, with your father and his wife, and you and your wife were living there. Yeah. And she came down for a week, and then everybody sent her back. You said she had a lovely week with you guys, and then everyone was like, go back to the house of abuse.

[1:32:57] Yeah, go back to Hell House, yeah.

[1:32:59] And it was Hell House because of the neglect, or were there other things?

[1:33:03] It was the neglect. It was just such extreme neglect. She would be sent to school without clothes that would fit her, so she was bullied for that. and she there was a bed bug infestation at one point at her home or.

[1:33:22] At the school.

[1:33:22] At her home at her home yeah so it was just it was just like you know and screaming and.

[1:33:29] The police every week and.

[1:33:30] Yeah psychiatric institutions.

[1:33:32] And so on right.

[1:33:33] Yeah of course all this stuff so and.

[1:33:36] Did anyone talk about, helping her get out of that environment at any point.

[1:33:44] Yeah yeah okay when.

[1:33:46] When did that happen.

[1:33:47] My sister reached out to me um and she said hey you're a social worker what can we do and i said you know there's really nothing we could do you could follow an abuse report but um you know if he wants to keep her then they're not going to take take her away and now that i sorry.

[1:34:08] If he He wants to keep her? Yeah.

[1:34:10] I thought Child Protective Services.

[1:34:12] I'm not an expert, but I thought that they could take a child out of a home where the child was in danger or undergoing significant neglect.

[1:34:19] Yeah, of course.

[1:34:20] So, sorry, what do you mean when you said to your sister, there's nothing we can do?

[1:34:24] Yeah um i i kind of attribute that to just the state of mind i was in at that point where, i am you know not as capable and as i am today and i i sorry this was this.

[1:34:40] Was a couple of years ago wasn't it.

[1:34:41] Yeah so you're 30 oh it was probably when i was like 20 20 28 probably early on like that or um oh so this is still.

[1:34:54] When you were marinating as you said in the.

[1:34:56] Past in your father's.

[1:34:57] House so you was but you've been studying social work for a long time right.

[1:35:01] Yes sir okay.

[1:35:03] So your sister says what can we do and you say nothing really.

[1:35:07] Yeah but.

[1:35:08] Why i mean that wasn't true was it.

[1:35:11] Uh at the time i might have thought it was true i mean it's Like.

[1:35:16] It's your sister. Wouldn't you go to the professor and say, what can we do? Wouldn't you ask someone in your program? I mean, this is your sister, right? Yeah, of course. So help me understand.

[1:35:27] I really can't.

[1:35:30] Yes, you can. What is going on? Like, help me understand.

[1:35:34] I just think I wasn't, I didn't think.

[1:35:40] No, no, because you'd had these fantasies about rescuing her. Your sister's like, is there anything we can do? Now, the least thing you can do is you can go to, you or your sister could go to your step-sister's father and say, we'll be happy to take her for a while.

[1:35:58] Yeah. And I think there was some of that.

[1:36:00] And that's not even a social work thing.

[1:36:03] Yeah. Yeah, of course.

[1:36:04] Okay, so help me understand.

[1:36:07] My sister kind of took the lead role, I guess.

[1:36:12] No, no, she's asking you for your semi-professional advice, because you've been studying this stuff for six years, right?

[1:36:17] Yeah, yeah, of course.

[1:36:18] Failed Rescue Efforts and Guilt

[1:36:18] Okay. So you've had this fantasy about saving your sister, and your older sister is saying, help me save her, and you're like, there's nothing we can do.

[1:36:30] Yeah.

[1:36:32] I'm trying to figure that one out.

[1:36:38] I, um, I don't know what to say.

[1:36:43] Don't go, hey, if you want to go rubber bones, we can just stop the call. I don't mean that as a threat, but I'm just saying, like, if you're just going to claim ignorance, because you already told me that you enjoyed the fact that I held, I hold damn adults accountable for their actions. Didn't you say that earlier?

[1:36:58] Yes, sir.

[1:36:59] Okay. So I'm, I mean, here's the thing. You think this is coming from me? This is not coming from me. You've already got this in your head.

[1:37:07] Yeah. Right?

[1:37:08] Your conscience is asking these questions.

[1:37:11] Yeah, yeah.

[1:37:12] And if you go rubber bones on your conscience, things go badly in your life. Yeah. Which is why you're calling me.

[1:37:17] Yeah.

[1:37:19] Right? If you're concerned that some action of yours caused your sister to be in harm and you're denying that fact, that might explain why you're feeling aggressive towards your baby.

[1:37:28] Yeah, yeah.

[1:37:29] I don't know. But rubber bones is not an option in these calls. I say this with great affection, and I'm glad that you're calling me, and I'm glad that we're having this conversation. But rubber bones is not an option. Because if you were to say it, because it's kind of a fraud, right? You know how these calls work. And if you say to me at the beginning, hey, if you ask me any tough questions, I'm just going to go rubber bones on you. I'd say, well, no, I've got like 50 other people who want to have this call. I'm going to talk to the people who don't have this silly out.

[1:37:57] Yeah.

[1:37:57] So. Why? did you not help your sister or explore it?

[1:38:11] Um, I don't think I wanted the responsibility.

[1:38:23] But your sister was taking the responsibility at this point, right?

[1:38:27] Uh, yes, yeah.

[1:38:28] Okay, so it's not that. What else?

[1:38:31] Um, not sure i mean i know i'm responsible i know i i i'm aware that i know uh okay what was the feeling yeah what was.

[1:38:53] The feeling in your heart what was the feeling in your heart, heart when your sister said, let's help our kid sister, or I want to help our kid sister, or what was the feeling in your heart?

[1:39:10] Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't say hopeless or, or I wanted to help her too, but it just felt like nothing, nothing would change.

[1:39:33] Despair no i just not quite it what no.

[1:39:36] No that's um do.

[1:39:38] You mean nothing will change hopelessness what do you mean this i'm trying to sort of figure this out i i because you're in social work right and you're in social work because you think things can change right yeah so it's sort of like saying well i want to become a doctor and then someone says i need some advice from you on health and you say oh no there's nothing we can do to change people's health trajectories It's like, well, then why are you becoming a doctor?

[1:40:00] Yeah.

[1:40:01] So let's try that again.

[1:40:05] Um, shoot. I'm trying to remember exactly. Cause I remember where I was sitting exactly when, when she was calling me and texting me about it. I was, but I don't know. I, I just. I'm not sure. I feel like I just couldn't. That if he wanted to keep her, then it would be difficult for...

[1:40:48] But you already knew that she'd been locked in the lower half of the household because they wanted so little to do with her.

[1:40:54] Yeah.

[1:40:55] So the idea that he's desperate to hang on to the daughter that he's locked out of his new baby's life is not, it's not empirical, right?

[1:41:06] Yeah.

[1:41:07] Okay. So since it's not empirical, right. There's no, in fact, there's evidence that he would be very happy to have her not in his household for a while. Right. Because the police are coming by every week, right? Yeah. Psych wards and screaming and police activity. So empirically it was absolutely worth exploring. If I understand the story correctly, It was absolutely worth exploring. Whether he might even jump at the chance to have her not in his household for a while.

[1:41:39] Yeah.

[1:41:39] So it wasn't that. So what else?

[1:41:41] But despite my, you know, my reaction to my sister asking me for help and my lack of help, you know, she did, you know, she would have my sister over her place and she flirted with the idea of taking her in, but decided not to because she was.

[1:42:02] You know. Okay, so, but your sister died.

[1:42:05] Yeah.

[1:42:05] Okay, so it didn't work. Now, I don't know whether it could have worked. Who knows, right? Yeah. But I'm just. Your conscience is already down there processing this question, and I'm just trying to join up with your conscience to release you from your anger against your daughter.

[1:42:20] Yeah.

[1:42:22] So, why did you not try to help your sister, given that that had been a decade-long dream of yours?

[1:42:33] Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I think that's why it was kind of like a dream because like, you know, my, my other sister was reaching out and saying, Hey, we got to do something. Um, so it was like, Oh, I could go, I could help her. And, you know, I don't, why I didn't do it. You know, I don't, I would just say I was not, um, really a man of action. Oh my God, man.

[1:43:06] We're just circling the train here. Yeah. You didn't have to act. Your sister was going to do it.

[1:43:11] Yeah.

[1:43:11] So what do you mean you weren't a man of action? Nobody's asking you to join the Marines.

[1:43:15] Yeah.

[1:43:16] Right?

[1:43:16] Yeah.

[1:43:17] So that's not it?

[1:43:22] I, um, hmm. So the question is, why didn't I help my sister? Yeah.

[1:43:36] Or why didn't you help your sister help your sister? Or why didn't you try and figure out ways in which your sister could be helped? Why didn't you, like, you're a social worker. Your whole point is to help people, particularly children, in need and distress. That's the entire, and you've got six years of education in this area, right?

[1:43:53] Yeah, yeah.

[1:43:54] So why didn't you say something? Oh, I'll look it up. Oh, I'll try and get the facts. Oh, I'll call my professor. I'll ask at school.

[1:44:05] Yeah.

[1:44:06] You had access to absolutely free legal and social resources to help your sister.

[1:44:13] Yeah.

[1:44:14] And maybe if you'd gone down that route, right, if it had turned out, well, the abuse isn't bad enough to take her out of the home, right?

[1:44:23] Uh-huh.

[1:44:24] And your half-sister's father absolutely won't give her up, okay, then there's really not much you can do other than try and stay in touch with her and see how she's doing.

[1:44:37] Yeah, of course. That's the least I can do. But you called her once a year. And I didn't even call her. She would call me.

[1:44:43] Oh, God. So you abandoned her. Yeah. And then when your sister came and said, I'm desperate to help her, you said there's nothing that can be done.

[1:44:51] Yeah.

[1:44:52] Confronting the Past

[1:44:53] Help me understand.

[1:44:54] I yeah I know what I excuse me I know what I did you know it's not something I'm not looking for.

[1:45:11] Self condemnation it's just.

[1:45:12] Genuine curiosity yeah of course and you know I just I want to I just want to be a good father from my daughter. So I want to answer. I just, I don't know. I don't know why. This is nothing good.

[1:45:33] Okay, so there's two probable reasons. These aren't facts. These aren't true.

[1:45:38] Okay.

[1:45:39] Right? These are just theories, and maybe they'll fit, and maybe they won't. But there's two reasons, I think. And again, if they don't fit, we'll just toss them, right?

[1:45:48] Okay.

[1:45:49] Number one. Thank you. How could you take a strong stand against an abuser when you're kind of abusive towards your wife?

[1:45:59] Yeah.

[1:46:00] Does that make sense?

[1:46:01] Of course.

[1:46:03] And do you agree with, I'm not saying you're only abusive, of course, but do you agree with the general assessment that you've been pretty, as you say, you tried to drive her away by being verbally abusive for years and it's still going on even now, right?

[1:46:14] Yes.

[1:46:15] Okay, so how are you going to take a firm stand against an abuser? You can't take a firm stand against the abuser yourself.

[1:46:22] Yeah, of course.

[1:46:24] So that's the price. Unfortunately, to some degree, your sister paid the price, but that's the price. There's always a price to be paid for being abusive, right?

[1:46:32] Yeah.

[1:46:33] And the devils in your heart are now saying, oh, your daughter's going to pay the price.

[1:46:39] Yeah. Right.

[1:46:40] So you understand the price that you pay for being abusive is your capacity to pair bond, bond, your capacity to love, your capacity to stand up for virtuous, your capacity to stand up against bullies and abusers.

[1:46:56] Yeah.

[1:46:57] Right. That's the cold embrace of these red-armed devils when they bring you into that club. That's the price you pay. And the price you pay is often borne by others as well.

[1:47:12] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:47:15] So, are you aware of the price that you pay for being mean to your wife and the mother of your child?

[1:47:22] I don't think so.

[1:47:23] Okay. Well, maybe that's why you keep doing it.

[1:47:29] Yeah.

[1:47:29] So, that's number one. Number two, I think, harkens back to what you were telling me at the very beginning of this call about your sister, that you have this forgiveness and, you know, she had to escape and things like that when you were abandoned as a kid when she got out, right? Now, I could be wrong. It's just a gut sense. It doesn't mean they're right.

[1:47:55] Sure.

[1:47:57] I think part of what happened was Fuck you sis Now you care about a kid Yeah, Don't just yeah me I don't know if that's real or not Yeah.

[1:48:10] Um let me Like.

[1:48:12] If you do have anger Towards your sister for failing to help you As a child Then when she comes to you with we've got to help this kid Without acknowledging Anything she did to you Or didn't do for you Sure.

[1:48:27] I could certainly see that. I'm not sure if that was the intention.

[1:48:35] I'm not saying it's a conscious motivation. I'm not even saying it is a motivation. Yeah. But I think it fits. It's a certain puzzle piece that fits, which again doesn't mean it's right. It fits some of the information that I've got from you, but you're the final arbiter as to whether that may or may not be true.

[1:48:50] It does certainly fit.

[1:48:58] What's the status of your relationship with your parents now?

[1:49:03] I, after I said, for first, I invited my mother to the baby shower and I said, wait, this is a bad idea. She showed up drunk anyway, but, you know, we got rid of her. But I don't talk to her anymore. I don't want, I said, listen, if you want to repair things with me, that's fine. Like, let's talk about that. But I can't allow you around my child. I can't allow abusers around my child. you know i mean it's kind of funny because you know what i am but well i'm an abuser.

[1:49:35] We're just keeping it in your head and dealing with it there right.

[1:49:37] Yes sir um but and then and then my father i gave the same choice i said hey listen i tried to to make amends with you you don't want to acknowledge any of the things i'm upset with because of that uh you know i don't want to have connection with you anymore if you ever change your mind you know reach out to me and I'll consider it. So I'm not involved with either of them anymore.

[1:50:01] And that happened when? I mean, you said the baby shower. I'm not sure when the baby shower was.

[1:50:06] Well, when my baby sister killed herself, that's kind of when I was like, that was like the real, I mean, that was the real wake-up call. I'd be like, hey, wait.

[1:50:16] Don't chuckle. Don't do it, man. I'm begging you. It's too weird.

[1:50:20] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was like the wake-up call was like, hey, wait, maybe I'm not a good person. There's something wrong here. How could this happen? I'm doing something wrong.

[1:50:35] Okay, so you had the insight that you hadn't fulfilled. And listen, please understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you're responsible for the death of your sister. Of course not, right? I mean, you weren't her parent. You didn't have any legal authority over her. I mean, could you have been closer? Absolutely. Absolutely. Is there more you could have done to help your sister rescue her or maybe done something yourself? Absolutely.

[1:50:56] Facing Responsibility

[1:50:57] But it's her parents who raised her and who had control over her and custody of her and all of that. So I just want to be really clear about that.

[1:51:04] Okay. I understand that. I also know.

[1:51:07] However, that's the kind of situation where you really do have to explore responsibility so that you don't have any hidden guilt that you're avoiding.

[1:51:16] Yeah.

[1:51:18] I mean, you could have done more. Is that fair to say?

[1:51:21] Of course. I'm well aware.

[1:51:23] And you know that when your older sister, because, you know, we had this little thing earlier in the call about how your older sister kind of abandoned you to be neglected and abused while she went off into the world with her friends, right?

[1:51:37] Yeah.

[1:51:39] So you knew how bad that was, right?

[1:51:41] Yeah, of course.

[1:51:43] And then she did that when she was, say, 14 years old, 15 years old, but you did that in your late 20s, right? Right.

[1:51:49] Yes. Yeah.

[1:51:51] So much less excuse.

[1:51:52] Yeah. No excuse.

[1:51:58] Now, whether that would have saved her or not, I don't know. It could be, again, I don't know how dysfunctional she was, but it could be that if you had tried to save her, she could have wrecked your life too.

[1:52:12] Of course. It's a possibility. It's completely unknown. I could never say.

[1:52:19] Well, I mean, but if you had put her on your sister, then she would have taken that branch, right?

[1:52:28] Yeah.

[1:52:30] So when your sister says, we got to rescue little sis, right?

[1:52:35] Mm-hmm.

[1:52:36] And you say there's nothing we can do. Was your perception or belief that it was too late?

[1:52:46] I definitely had that thought before.

[1:52:49] Tell me about that.

[1:52:50] I certainly have. I mean, I would tell my father, I'm like, she's going to end up being a stripper, you know, because you can't. I mean, you certainly can, but to survive that level of abuse and come out, you know, not an animal is I'm sure it's pretty difficult.

[1:53:11] And how old was your sister when you had these thoughts or had this conversation with your father?

[1:53:17] That one was probably 2019. She was 12 years old.

[1:53:24] And what behavior of hers was giving you that thought it's.

[1:53:29] Not necessarily her behavior it was more um how her parents treated her.

[1:53:35] Oh just knowing the level of abuse she was going through yeah yeah okay so you felt that she was doomed but based on the level of abuse is that right.

[1:53:48] I've had those thoughts, yes.

[1:53:52] And how would that relate to you? I mean, you experience significant levels of neglect and abuse. If she's doomed, are you?

[1:54:03] I hope not.

[1:54:05] Well, what's the difference? And I'm not saying there isn't one. I just want to know what the difference is in your mind.

[1:54:16] I'm not sure, I'm not sure I don't know Okay, Sorry, that's my baby She's been.

[1:54:28] Mad I'm aware Is your wife home at all? Is there a chance Because it's going to be a bit distracting I think I don't mind the baby being here, of course Yes, sir No.

[1:54:37] She's not She'll be home soon.

[1:54:38] I think Okay, well, we can finish up, I think, soon.

[1:54:43] Okay.

[1:54:43] So where do you think, we've had a long old chat now, where do you think the aggressive impulses towards your daughter are coming from?

[1:54:52] Um... it it kind of makes sense um you know my conscience has uh always always been something that um has kind of come back to to you know i've had tics where i would think of something and you know i know that's my conscious just like injecting these these memories or whatever ever into my head of you know times i did something i regret and um you know it it's probably just my i i actually forget the question i apologize where.

[1:55:35] Do you think your aggressive impulses are coming from.

[1:55:37] Just my my failure um to to my baby sister could.

[1:55:45] Be it as well and i So generally, if we're angry at the innocent, it's because we're not acknowledging our anger at the guilty. Now, if your anger at the guilty is towards yourself, for the two major things, right? Which is abusive towards your wife and not working harder to help protect your sister.

[1:56:06] Yeah.

[1:56:07] So if you get angry at yourself for your own bad behavior, which we all have. Like, I understand. I'm not, like, shaking my finger like Gabriel here from a high mountain. We all have bad behavior. But if you don't get angry at yourself for your own bad behavior, or accept it, or understand it, or find a way to be at peace from it, to learn from it. So, how do I know you're learning from your bad behavior? Because it's repeating with your wife, right?

[1:56:32] Yeah.

[1:56:33] I mean, you tell a pregnant woman, I wish you weren't with me. Yeah. That's cruel, right?

[1:56:39] It's horrible, yep.

[1:56:40] So you're not angry enough at the right things, so you're getting angry at the wrong things. So, a couple of areas, of course, you haven't, I mean, when you were a kid, you'd write in the notebook, I remember I hate my mom, right? But that hasn't taken, right? Because your mom's come into your baby shower, drunk. Yep. And then you say to your mom, I don't want to see you anymore, but hey, if you change, if you blah, blah, blah, and you said the same thing to your dad, right? Yeah. So why would you say that?

[1:57:24] I was, you know, I did, I was, I'm happy I got rid of, I cut them off, but to leave.

[1:57:35] But why would you say you're welcome back if dot, dot, dot?

[1:57:40] Yeah, I think I just heard that before.

[1:57:44] Okay, is that what you feel?

[1:57:45] I parroted. No, I mean, my father did reach out to me again.

[1:57:48] No, no, but is that what you feel? That they're welcome back if they do something, something, something?

[1:57:56] Absolutely not.

[1:57:57] Okay, so that's my question. It's not a criticism. I'm genuinely curious. Why would you say that they're welcome back if they jump through some hoops or whatever?

[1:58:08] Yeah.

[1:58:09] When your wife, sorry, when your mother, after neglecting you, abusing you, instigating your father's sadistic violence against you, abandoning you, and giving you drugs, and so on. I mean, and being a heroin addict while she's a mother, and driving drunk. What the fuck could she do that would have her back into your life?

[1:58:36] There's nothing.

[1:58:37] So, why would you say that? that i.

[1:58:41] I i might have just said it because you know i i listened to how you kind of coach um how you would approach one of these situations and it's not like you.

[1:58:53] Don't put it on me no i i've never said have i said to lie no have i said oh yeah make sure you misrepresent your experiences with people make sure you lie to people so if you say well if you say that there's There's nothing they could do to make up for what they've done. Then if you say, well, Steph, the reason I lied to them is you're a philosopher who values the truth and I was listening to you. Don't try it, man. Don't slither me that way, bro.

[1:59:20] I'm thinking it has something to do with manipulation. I don't know.

[1:59:32] If you heard the story from someone else, how angry would that person be with their parents?

[1:59:37] They'd probably be pretty upset.

[1:59:39] Be pretty upset?

[1:59:41] Yeah.

[1:59:42] Enraged?

[1:59:43] Yeah, of course.

[1:59:44] They'd be enraged? Yeah. Okay. Have you felt that level of anger towards the parents who did you such harm?

[1:59:58] Um, no.

[1:59:59] Right. Why not?

[2:00:03] I don't, I'm not sure.

[2:00:07] I can tell you why not, if you want.

[2:00:09] Please.

[2:00:11] Because you'll feel like real shit if you get really angry at abusive people, because then you'll have to confront yourself and what you've been doing to your wife.

[2:00:19] Yeah. Right? Yes.

[2:00:22] You forgive them so you can continue to be cruel to your wife.

[2:00:27] Yeah, that kind of makes a lot of sense.

[2:00:29] So stop that!

[2:00:31] Yes.

[2:00:35] They're abusive and it's absolutely unacceptable. You're abusive and it's absolutely unacceptable. This is the mother of your child. You don't get to pick and choose six or seven years after you commit to someone, impregnate them, and have a baby. Maybe you don't get to say, oh, you're not enough, right?

[2:00:51] Yeah. Yeah, of course. Sorry.

[2:00:53] Tell me to raise you my voice.

[2:00:54] No, it's okay.

[2:00:55] With your daughter, right?

[2:00:56] She can't hear. It's just bad opera.

[2:00:58] Okay. But do you understand that you still have something on the table, which is called, I can be horrible to my wife?

[2:01:09] Yes. Yes, I do. Okay.

[2:01:10] So why do you do that? Because you give yourself permission to do that.

[2:01:14] I do. I do.

[2:01:15] Overcoming Negative Patterns

[2:01:15] Okay. Okay, so what if you don't give yourself permission to do that?

[2:01:19] That's a good idea.

[2:01:21] If somebody gave you a million dollars to be nice to your wife for a day, you could do it, right? I bet you you're nice to your wife when you're at the mall or at the grocery store or at the airport.

[2:01:29] Yeah.

[2:01:32] So you're perfectly capable of being nice to your wife.

[2:01:36] Yeah.

[2:01:38] And you have on the table of acceptable behavior saying the most horrible things to your wife.

[2:01:46] Absolutely horrible. Yeah, of course.

[2:01:47] Right.

[2:01:49] And it shouldn't be on the table.

[2:01:51] And what also comes on the table is using violence or thinking of violence against your daughter. Because if you can get your way, listen, you try to get your way with your wife by being verbally aggressive and abusive, right?

[2:02:03] Yeah. Okay.

[2:02:05] So you have, in particular in your relationships with females, I can escalate until I get whatever the hell I want.

[2:02:13] That's a very true statement.

[2:02:15] And then what do you do with your daughter?

[2:02:18] I escalate.

[2:02:19] In your mind, you escalate until she damn well does what you want.

[2:02:23] That's right.

[2:02:23] But that's from your wife. That's how you treat your wife.

[2:02:28] Yeah.

[2:02:28] How could it be different? Yeah. That's the price you pay. Your daughter is paying the price for how you treat your wife.

[2:02:34] Yeah. Yeah. because you.

[2:02:39] Can't hide anything from kids.

[2:02:40] No you can't so.

[2:02:43] She'll see that coldness in your eyes she'll see that hostility and that rage in your eyes.

[2:02:46] I would like i don't know if that'll it's kind of been a part of me i i don't want that to be on the table for my wife but i don't know if i'll be able to get rid of that entirely i don't know what do you mean get rid rid of what? That coldness and that hostility.

[2:03:04] Well, I'm not asking you to rewire your brain because that's kind of impossible.

[2:03:08] Yeah.

[2:03:09] But you do have free will and self-ownership, right?

[2:03:13] Yes, sir. Okay.

[2:03:15] Can you stop yourself from saying mean things to your wife?

[2:03:20] Absolutely. Okay.

[2:03:21] So I'm not asking you to not have any thoughts or emotions because that's It's kind of impossible.

[2:03:26] Yeah.

[2:03:27] I am asking you to not act on them in ways that are harmful to your family.

[2:03:33] Yeah.

[2:03:34] Can you do that?

[2:03:35] Yes.

[2:03:37] Can you apologize to your wife?

[2:03:41] I can. Can you mean it? I think I can. I hope so.

[2:03:51] Well, she is the mother of your child, right?

[2:03:54] That's true. Yes.

[2:03:55] And for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, she stood by you in situations where few women would.

[2:04:02] Yes.

[2:04:03] Would you rather be alone?

[2:04:08] That's a good question.

[2:04:09] Without being a father?

[2:04:11] I can't, I can't, no.

[2:04:15] Yeah, because, I mean, that ship kind of sails, right?

[2:04:17] Yeah, and that'll be worse.

[2:04:20] Now, if you have some guilt about your sister, there's only one thing you can do. you can't save your sister because she's dead.

[2:04:29] But you could save your relationship with your daughter. Yeah.

[2:04:39] Sorry, if you need to do something with your daughter, I'm certainly happy to wait.

[2:04:44] Okay, do you mind?

[2:04:45] No, no.

[2:04:45] That'll just be a couple of minutes. Thank you.

[2:04:49] Yes, hello.

[2:04:51] Hey, I'm back. Thank you.

[2:04:52] No, no problem at all. No problem at all. All right. So yeah, I would say those two things are probably the major issues that are going on. To honor what happened to your sister, you need to commit to doing better with your wife. If you confront your own capacity for manipulation, for negativity, for abuse, which we all have, and of course with the sympathy of this is how you were raised and this is how you were trained, so there is that causality which is important. But now you know the causality, you're all the more responsible for fixing it.

[2:05:27] But if you can redeem yourself, if you feel guilt about what happened with your sister, by committing to learn the lesson of her death and not allow yourself to be lazy and inactive in the realm of kindness or abuse, I think that's the best you can do out of this situation. situation, and for the sake of your daughter, you need to not abuse her mother, obviously, right?

[2:05:57] Finding Worthiness

[2:05:57] I mean, for the sake of your wife, for the mother of your child, for the sake of you, for the legacy of your dead sister, and for the future of your child, that behavior has to be off the table. Now, that doesn't mean that all the thoughts will magically vanish, but it means without expression, the thoughts can actually be understood, right? So you know sort of the phrase acting out. Acting out is when we avoid our feelings by action that is the opposite, right? So a guy who's feeling vulnerable and humiliated will often react with anger and aggression to avoid the feelings of humiliation and so on, right? And feeling less, right? People who feel put down will escalate aggression to avoid their own feelings of humiliation. So, it's when we act in the opposite manner to avoid the feelings deep down. If you take away the actions, which is really what philosophy is, or just taking away the destructive actions, then the true feelings will emerge.

[2:06:57] You attack your wife because you can't understand why she's with you. You attack your wife because you disrespect her for being with you, which means you disrespect yourself. And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because if you act in a way that is clearly not worthy of respect, and then you say, well, I attack my wife because she is with me and I don't understand why, so I don't respect her, then I act in ways that she couldn't possibly respect and she stays and all of that, right? So you're kind of in this spiral of repetition and self-fulfilling prophecies. Start acting in a way that your wife can respect, and that will challenge the I'm not worthy drumbeat that's going on in your head and how dare anyone want to be with me and don't they know what a piece of crap I am or whatever drumbeat is going on in your head. That needs to be confronted, but you don't act out a feeling of humiliation and unworthiness by putting others down and being aggressive with them because you can't understand her bond with you, so you keep attacking your bond with her, right?

[2:08:03] Yeah.

[2:08:05] But you already have a child, so your child absolutely requires that you feel worthy. Do you understand?

[2:08:13] Yeah.

[2:08:14] You have no choice in this matter. You already have a child, and your child... can't see you acting out this weird psychodrama of I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. If you don't feel like you're worthy, okay, don't get married, don't have a kid. But you got married and you have a kid. So now you have to find a way to be worthy. And the first way to be worthy is stop abusing people. Does that make sense?

[2:08:36] It makes perfect sense.

[2:08:38] Sorry, you're so quiet I can barely hear you.

[2:08:40] I apologize. It makes perfect sense.

[2:08:43] Okay. So yeah, those were my suggestions. Have you thought about talk therapy in the here and now? Because I would I think it could be quite helpful.

[2:08:52] I have thought about it. It's just I work with therapists, and I wouldn't trust these people to buy my groceries.

[2:09:04] Well, you wouldn't necessarily want to work with a government therapist or whatever is going on there, right? I mean, it's private people who can do great work. I'm a big fan of internal family systems therapy. uh so uh i mean i think it would be worthwhile because if you stop acting out the bad behavior, the feelings will then start to rise up and you might need some help with those uh with those feelings like whatever's down underneath this aggression yeah.

[2:09:33] Yeah that's probably what's been going on too.

[2:09:36] Seeking Emotional Healing

[2:09:37] I mean underneath the rage at people not taking care of you is the pain of not being taken care of but it's easier to then transmit that into rage and then it's easier to transmit submit that into virtue signaling like well mother and father i'm still superior to you because i'd welcome you back if you change while knowing deep down that they won't and all of that stuff right that's a long way from the actual original feelings of of pain at having been ignored and exploited and manipulated and threatened and bullied and right so that's that's that's it's a lot of layers to that original pain and as you stop acting out you'll get down to the layers i think of the original pain and you might need some help with that because as you start to get down to the original pain, the defensive devils in your heart that are also in my heart and everyone's heart, just so you know, I don't want you to feel alone in this, but when you start to get the original pain, the defensive devils will say, oh, go act out. Yeah, we can make these feelings go away, just go yell at your wife.

[2:10:36] Yeah. Right.

[2:10:37] We can make these feelings go away, just think negatively about your daughter.

[2:10:43] Yeah.

[2:10:43] And that's going to be tempting, right?

[2:10:45] Yeah.

[2:10:46] And so I think having somebody in your corner who can help you with the feelings would be pretty important. I'd like to say essential, but that sounds like I'm telling you what to do, which I don't do, but I think it's pretty important.

[2:10:56] I value what you have to say very, very highly.

[2:11:03] I've got a whole podcast. You can find it. FDRpodcast.com. Just do a search for therapist in this. I think it's 1927. seven how to find a great therapist is sort of my thoughts on that so hopefully you'll you'll think of that and listen uh i just want to say first of all i'm incredibly sorry for what happened to you as a child and also what happened to you in your 20s without people standing up for you or saying hey what's going on with your life or just kind of letting you marinate or rot in the attic uh in in world of warcraft i have huge sympathies for all of that like and and also as i said at the beginning massive respect for calling in with these difficult topics it's very very brave, and I think very wise. And I really admire you for that. And I also admire you for the amount of work you've done in philosophy and your commitment to peaceful parenting and so on. So like really, really great stuff in there. You've got a couple of rough edges, as we all do.

[2:11:55] Yes, sir.

[2:11:56] And you give yourself permission for things which you shouldn't do, which we all do. So again, I don't want you to feel isolated or go into some sort of, I'm so bad kind of stuff, right? Right. But I do think that you do have to just, you know, as I said, take the harsh language off the table and get some help with the emotions that might result. But I really do appreciate the call today.

[2:12:17] I will do that. Thank you so much, Steph. You know, I'm going to continue listening to you every day and reading your books. And thank God you're here because, you know, I don't know what I would be if I didn't have your influence. on.

[2:12:33] If it's any consolation, I don't know where I'd be without philosophy either. So I'm glad that we're able to find some use out of it. All right. I hope you'll keep me posted. Thanks again for today.

[2:12:41] Thank you.

[2:12:42] Bye-bye.

Join Stefan Molyneux's Freedomain Community

Become a part of the movement. Get exclusive content. Interact with Stefan Molyneux.
Become A Member
Already have an account? Log in
Let me view this content first