[0:00] Well, yeah, nice to meet you. I'm glad we had a chance to chat today.
I had a week cancellation.
So, yeah, if you want to, you can just read the message or you can just tell
me in your words how I can best help.
[0:11] Okay, I'll try to just summarize it.
Basically, I kind of, I guess, conflicting decision.
And sorry if I'm kind of odd. I just worked out, so I'm still kind of generally cooling down.
[0:31] Are you using a headset, just out of curiosity?
[0:34] Yeah, it's my Apple AirPod.
[0:37] Okay, alright. Yeah, go ahead.
[0:39] Is that okay?
[0:42] Audio is not ideal, but it's fine, it's fine. So, go ahead.
[0:45] Okay. Maybe if I put the second one in, it might help.
So, my, I guess, predicament, you could say, is is I'm a single child.
I'm a 30-year-old male, single child, and I recently moved.
I'm from the Midwest region of the U.S., and I moved out west for a job opportunity.
I was out there for a couple of years, and it didn't work out for a couple of reasons.
And one of the main reasons that I had was being as far from family. It was very difficult.
If something were to come up, if it's a three-day drive, it's a $1,000 ticket
on any given day. Plane ticket.
And so I moved back home to be closer to family, be closer to that support system.
But I guess being here, I don't really have any pull to the area.
I don't have any interest in being here besides family.
So I guess there are times that I feel guilty for not wanting to be here to support my family.
But then there are other times where I feel like that's my responsibility.
And I guess, you know, having thought about this the last couple of days,
I just, I want to make sure that then it's me making the decision and not,
like my parents or something I think my parents would like.
[2:07] Okay. I'm sort of trying to, to, I need to sort of view of your life as a whole.
If you can tell me a little bit about dating and, and what's going on with you
in terms of relationships, like what's the competing stuff with regards to your,
your parents or your mother in particular, right? Is it just your mother?
[2:26] Yeah. Well, so my, my parents divorced when I was young, you know, one or two or something.
So I, I grew up with them being apart, but I still saw my father most weekends, every other weekend.
You know, I still had a relationship with him. You know, you get older,
you get busy, you see them less.
And I lived with my mother, who also had, you know, she had a boyfriend who's been very consistent.
You know, they've been together since I was in kindergarten or so.
So he's basically a stepfather.
[3:07] So then I guess coming up from that I had you know multiple families you could
say in a sense because my father remarried a couple times and went through a couple girlfriends,
and I would you know go over there to visit but I
stayed consistently in the same house with my mother and I've
had a couple of girlfriends throughout my love life you know
first girlfriend was you know first real girlfriend
real dating was high school like junior year high school um we were together
a couple years nothing serious i mean you know we that that was my first uh
sexual encounter um so that was serious but it wasn't it wasn't much past that you know we had a,
difference in opinion and and how to you know i wanted to go to college she
didn't want to She didn't want to she wanted to like move in together and all that. I had I.
[4:04] A couple of other kind of short-term girlfriends one was
kind of like i guess you could say a summer fling um and
that was just before going to college and i
you know my reasoning was i wanted a clean slate you
know i wanted to start fresh you know nothing tying me down and i guess that's
been a recurring uh theme or issue for me is not never wanting to feel tied
down um and i guess that relates to buying a house here I'm afraid to be tied
down to something I don't want.
[4:38] So past that, my next
kind of major girlfriend relationship was
in college and that was
about about three years we we were pretty serious um but it it was it was definitely
an unhealthy relationship um we started out okay but it it was it was just a lot of,
it was a lot and i know that's i know that's very vague and you hate that um,
Um, so like it started out, you know, we, we went to like a polyamorous relationship,
which I wasn't, you know, that wasn't my idea, but you know,
it's college like, okay, I'll give it a try.
You know, obviously that didn't work. Uh, and we went back.
[5:33] Something that she wanted.
[5:36] Yeah. So she brought it up. Um, we, we talked about it and she said that she wanted to try it.
When we met, I think she was a year younger than me.
um she was a freshman when we met and she brought it up that she wanted to try
it you know it's first year kind of you know kind of the same reasoning i gave
um the girlfriend before that you know nothing to be tied down so i said okay
you know we'll try i'm sorry.
[6:01] The same reasoning you gave so was it that you you wanted a polyamorous relationship
but the previous If it's the same reasoning, I just want to make sure I understand the history.
[6:11] No, just that I had told the previous girl I had a relationship with that I
wanted a fresh start or I didn't want, I wanted new experiences. So I guess.
[6:25] Oh, so you broke up with the previous girlfriend saying that you wanted new
experiences and then you meet the new girlfriend who wants polyamory. Is that right?
[6:34] Yes. Okay.
[6:35] Got it. Got it. I'm not, yeah, I just want to make sure I understand the sequence. Go ahead.
[6:39] Sure, sure.
So, and that was, you know, that was maybe a month or so in, you know, we had...
relationship together before that and then we did that for maybe a year the poly thing for.
[6:54] A year had a relationship with each other before that i don't yeah before you went poly yes.
[6:59] Yes like we were we were monogamous for about a month or.
[7:03] So before that okay um that's not exactly the olympics of monogamy but no.
[7:08] No not at all.
[7:09] Okay so you were monogamous for a month and then she brings up that she wants
to go poly right yes and you say okay right i.
[7:18] Say okay yeah.
[7:19] And how so how does that work in sort of practical terms like you can both then
just go and sleep with other people.
[7:27] Yeah so the idea is um that i guess there's multiple structures but the idea
is that there's There's a main relationship,
and then they consensually can see other people, so long as there's that maintenance
of the main relationship.
At least that's how I interpreted it when I looked into it and when it was explained to me.
[7:53] Well, this is what your girlfriend said, right? Like, you're my primary boyfriend,
but I want to have sex with other men.
[7:59] Right, right. right um and um
so it
didn't i you know i i'm thinking
you know i'm not necessarily a ladies man or a player or
anything like that but you know you have that thought like okay well maybe
this will be interesting or fun but that
never really happened i never it just
never really felt right to me and then of course she had
a couple of
encounters with people i don't know don't know how to
term it um and but it
ended up right yeah well no really it was um excuse me i'm sorry um there there
was one guy that she she got into like another relationship with that she was
having sex with uh the other times were like so dude dude women i.
[8:51] Don't know what you're talking about sorry you keep rushing all over the place and i'm i'm.
[8:56] Just being dragged.
[8:56] Along here okay Okay, so you're supposed to be the primary boyfriend,
and now you're telling me she got into a relationship with another guy.
[9:03] Right.
[9:04] So isn't that breaking the polyamory thing?
[9:07] Right.
[9:08] Okay, so you've got to help me here. I don't know what you're talking about.
You keep rushing along like I know what the hell you're talking about.
[9:15] I'm sorry.
[9:16] No, it's like, okay, so just slow down and tell me what the hell happened.
So she said, you'll be my primary boyfriend. I'm just going to fuck other guys.
And then she ended up getting what? Bonded and into a relationship with some other guy?
[9:29] Yeah, essentially.
[9:30] Wait, so what do you mean by, now, essentially is another word.
I don't know. If that's not accurate, tell me how that's not accurate.
[9:38] No, that's, honestly, that's accurate.
[9:41] Okay, so essentially that's just what it was, right?
[9:44] Correct.
[9:45] Okay, got it.
[9:47] So, yeah, she...
[9:48] And did she tell you, you're now the side piece and he's the main attraction, or how did that work?
[9:56] It uh it was there was a i i brought it up many times um it was kind of like
i was the that that that very that very question like am i the main piece and still um but.
[10:12] How did you know that she was in a relationship with another guy.
[10:15] She told me she.
[10:18] Said i'm now somebody else's girlfriend or how did she how did she put it.
[10:21] Yeah well it was like i'm seeing this other guy you know i'm with this other
guy where you know it was never explicit like i'm i'm i don't want to swear
i'm having sex with this guy but you know it we it was very you know we were very clear sorry.
[10:37] What what do you mean wasn't explicit i mean you're in a polyamorous relationship and she's with.
[10:42] Another guy.
[10:42] I mean what's.
[10:43] What's i i don't want to be explicit on on on your on this call what do you
mean i don't want to i don't want to drop f-bombs and oh i don't care about that.
[10:52] Oh, I mean, that's the least offensive thing to me of anything that you're saying, so go ahead.
[10:59] You know, it's not like we were talking and she was like, yes,
I'm fucking him, but it was like, yes, we're having sex.
I understood that.
[11:08] What? So she didn't say I'm fucking him, but she said I'm having sex with him.
[11:16] Yeah.
[11:17] What are you talking about?
[11:18] I mean, it wasn't outright.
[11:18] Isn't that the same thing?
[11:19] It wasn't outright. Yeah.
[11:24] Sorry, I'm misunderstanding something, and I'm not particularly familiar with
this community, so forgive my ignorance, but she said, I'm not fucking him,
but I'm having sex with him.
[11:38] I, I guess, well, let me say I'm not, I didn't like any of this and this is,
this is why I'm trying to understand what you meant though. Sorry.
I, I'm trying to remember the train of thinking that maybe say all that.
[11:53] Okay. If, if it's fine, we don't worry about it too much. So she said,
I'm having sex with this other man.
What's the deal? Like, was there a limit? Was there a timeout?
Like you can't have sex more than three times.
otherwise that's a relationship or or how did it work and like if you say well
we can have sex with other people is there some rule that says but not too many
times because that's like a relationship or or what no.
[12:17] There wasn't really anything like that but what happened was basically i would
see her during the week and then she would see the other guy during the weekend.
[12:26] Oh okay got it so So you were like the workday sex and he was the weekend sex.
[12:32] Yeah. And let me say that it was a very sexual relationship.
Looking back on it now, there wasn't really much of a real relationship.
[12:43] Sorry, you mean your relationship with her?
[12:45] Yeah.
[12:47] And what was her childhood like?
[12:51] Pretty bad. um i guess she was um i don't i don't know the full context but
i guess she was sexually assaulted when she was little um she well.
[13:06] Of course she was right.
[13:07] Right i i guess she she was adopted um apparently apparently and this is all
from her but um i guess her her biological mother, tried to abort her,
but she still was born. She was put up for adoption.
Adopted by parents in Mexico. So she grew up in Mexico.
Uh, and then, you know, they, she, uh, had a lot of depression.
[13:37] So sorry, she was adopted out of the country.
[13:41] I, yeah, I'm not sure. She, cause she was born in, supposedly she was born in
Spain and then was somehow adopted.
I don't know if, I don't quite know.
[13:52] Oh, maybe they were relatives or something like that, but.
[13:56] Yeah. And, and, and I know she said that she had tried to find information,
but her, she, either Either her parents, her adoptive parents never let her
or were hiding something. I'm not entirely sure.
[14:08] And then she was sexually assaulted by her adopted, like the people who adopted her.
[14:14] No, just the family, like cousins or something like that.
And she had brought it up and they didn't believe her.
and I guess I don't know if it was that alone or just other things but she developed
depression you know she was clinically you know went to,
psychiatrists and medication and all that she had history of drug problems drug addiction,
so not very good So why were you dating her?
I guess. She's a really broken person.
[14:59] Right? She's been really terribly abused.
[15:02] Right. I think the first part is the sex.
She was an attractive woman, girl, and I was into that.
But I think I have, I don't know, I have that fix-a-girl complex.
kind of thing.
[15:24] But I'm sorry I thought you said that it was mostly just sex so there's not
much fixing going on if you're just having sex with her right?
[15:31] Yeah yeah,
I didn't do a very good job.
[15:47] Okay, so what happened for the long run with this girl?
[15:55] Well, long run, we eventually, we lose the other guy. That's a weird way of saying it.
And she, the other, she dumps her, they break up, the other relationship, they break up.
[16:13] Yeah.
[16:15] So we're together for maybe another year, just us. And then it's kind of off and on.
[16:20] Wait, sorry, when you say just us, does that mean you hit the polyamory?
[16:24] Yeah, we came back to monogamy.
[16:27] And how did that come about?
[16:31] Just all of this.
I brought it up. um i said i i don't like this um and,
it you know we i think the other dude was moving away too or i don't know um
i've tried i've tried not to um and so we do that and i guess i should also
say that while this is all through college so we're kind of only dating,
partially because we're only dating during the school year when the summer comes
when summer break comes out like we go on a break now she,
has said you know we've talked about it later you know we've since talked since
breaking up and she said that it's she felt like she wanted to let me be free
you know she didn't want to tie me down,
you know I took it as she wanted to go run around but,
I never saw any evidence of that.
But, sorry, to answer the question, that's kind of what it became.
We fizzled out. We were kind of on again, off again for about another year,
and then we officially broke up and parted ways.
I moved back home from college town.
[17:55] Okay. Got it. and how early was your exposure to pornography,
um
if if that was the case.
[18:10] I would say, I don't know. I don't know specifically.
I would say maybe like 12 or 13. I wasn't super young.
I was kind of like that preteen era.
[18:31] Okay. And did you have any controls on that, that uh or did your um parents
or your mother and stepfather um manage that or deal with that at all.
[18:47] Um they i mean they they tried you know they did what they could uh you know
um there was a time when you know i i was looking up music videos on youtube um and,
And they, you know, I guess I got the impression, you know, my mom approached
me and said, like, what are you using the site for?
Like looking up music videos and like, no, like that's, you know,
I've been told that's not what that site is used for.
So I had to show her like my search history, like this is I was looking up. So I don't know.
I don't know what she thought was on there.
I've heard, you know, YouTube was pretty spicy in the early days. um
so when you know when she had the impression she she did try to manage it but
you know i also i wasn't trying to i was trying to hide it you know i would
just you know just i think google search that's that's how that was okay.
[19:46] All right um okay so you ended up uh doing so not not seeing this woman over
the summers and then it fizzled out or how did that go end of school or.
[20:00] Yeah it fizzled out we
i i stayed in town uh
after graduating college i stayed in the
town renting a house for for a year afterwards um and
we um i you
could say we broke up like at the beginning any of that and we
were kind of on and off throughout that
year um not the
full year you know maybe like nine months um and at that point i had i think
she she was renting a house somewhere in town and i think she still had another
year of school and i i moved back home to my parents house.
[20:46] And is that when it fizzled out? Sorry, I'm just trying to follow when it,
oh, I assume it has, right?
[20:51] Yeah, it has. And by the point that I had moved home, it had fizzled out.
[20:57] And that's your own monies, is that right?
[21:00] Yeah.
[21:01] Okay, got it. And since then?
[21:05] Um since then i i had a another fling with a girl i had met in college um we reconnected we,
i i flew out to to see
her one time you know and we hung out like a
weekend an extended weekend um nothing you
know we we saw a show nothing you know i don't even you know
we didn't even hold hands nothing like that um we continued communications and
then she came out to my place for a couple of weeks we were going to go see
a show um that fell through but she still stayed in town with me and over that i'm.
[21:47] Sorry what fell through the show.
[21:49] The show that we were going to see it was it was like a a weekend show um.
[21:57] You mean a show that plans for the whole weekend?
[21:59] Yes. It's a music festival.
[22:03] Oh, okay. Yeah. Like, okay. Got it.
[22:06] And she, so she, I bought two tickets. I like this festival and I like to invite
people. So I'll buy an extra ticket.
And, you know, I, there's usually a friend or someone that, you know,
okay, come along, you know, and that was the situation.
I ended up, I guess, just giving context. I ended up adopting a dog that same
week, thinking I could have my cousin come watch the dog while I was away.
Obviously, that didn't work. You can't have a new dog, all this new environment and stuff.
So I didn't go to the show to help get the dog back into the house.
And throughout that weekend and the following week, this girl stayed at my house with me.
[22:55] Sorry, your house being you and your parents? Or were you alone at this point?
[23:00] So I guess that is important. So I was living with my parents.
And this is my mom's house that we had lived in since I was little.
um i moved back
in i stayed there for maybe a year and
so throughout all this time my stepdad has
his own house um so uh after a little bit of staying there i was i put up the
proposition like hey why don't like if if you like you know you you both can
move into the stepdad's house and And I,
you know, I can pay you rent to stay here.
So that's, that's, they, they agreed, you know, and that's what we did.
So by maybe, you know, a year later, when this girl, by the time this girl had
come to stay with me, the house was, it was by myself in this house.
[23:55] And did you change anything to do with the house or was it basically like your
parents' house and you just kind of lived there?
In other words, were you living in like Boomerville or did you do anything to make it sort of your own?
[24:10] No, I would make it my own. I've always had a tendency to, even just my room,
just to up and change it, rearrange it.
But once I was renting the whole house, I would repaint walls.
I took over the landscaping. I was planting stuff.
I was really into all of that, gardening and whatnot. not and um i did you know
i ended up painting wall murals you know you go to lowe's they sell like discount
paint so i'll just buy random paint uh so i i definitely made it my own rearranging and such all.
[24:41] Right and so you and you still had you kissed or or was this a friend or were
you aiming to be a boyfriend or with this this woman who came to stay with you.
[24:51] It i it was yeah it was originally a friend but i i was intending you know i
liked her you know i was intending to make it serious and,
we I don't know that we specifically said do you want to start dating,
and how long have you known this woman.
[25:17] And spent time with this woman before you even talked about dating I.
[25:23] Knew her um,
I knew her in person for a year because we lived in the same dorm floor.
[25:33] That's wild.
[25:34] Our freshman year.
[25:36] Isn't that how wild that is?
[25:38] Yeah.
[25:39] I mean, the previous relationship, you're sharing your girlfriend,
your hypersexual girlfriend with other men.
And this one, you don't even hold hands for a year. Can you find something in the middle?
Or is that you're just like a person of extremes that way? It just seems kind of wild.
[25:56] Yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
[26:01] I mean, did you want to date her earlier or was this part of the,
I don't know, don't make it tied down thing?
[26:06] No, I did. I was. So I guess I was interested in her when we met, but she was dating.
She had a boyfriend in her hometown. She was from out of state.
She had a boyfriend, so she was unavailable.
um so by this point she had broken up with her boyfriend and we had reconnected,
you know online i mean we still kind of kept in touch and stuff but we reconnected and then i i,
set up going over there like to see her right okay and and you know and that
went so well that you know we continued continuing okay it's kind of i guess
it's kind of an extreme first date Got it.
[26:50] Okay. All right. And so did you end up getting together with this woman?
[26:57] Yeah, but after we had dated basically a couple of weeks, and then I had,
I don't know, I internally freaked out.
Because I don't know what it was, if it was still processing the previous relationship or what.
But I told, you know, I broke up with her just telling her as much.
Like, you know, I'm not ready for this.
[27:24] Wait, you flirted with this woman for a year, kind of.
[27:28] Yeah.
[27:29] And then you finally get her to date you and you break up a couple of weeks later?
[27:34] Yes.
[27:35] Okay. All right.
[27:38] I know.
[27:39] No, I'm just, what the hell?
[27:41] Yeah.
[27:44] Were you interested in dating you before that? Like who, who was,
who was not dating whom over that year?
[27:51] She, I mean, she was interested in, in, I, I got to feeling that.
[27:55] You, you kept this woman dangling for a year and then broke up with her a couple
of weeks after dating her?
[28:01] Well, we didn't really, you know, she lived in a different state and,
you know, we didn't, I don't, you know, I'm not, uh, not that wild.
Oh, so just pick her up the first day we started talking.
[28:18] That's not what I said, though. I mean, this woman wanted to date you for a year, right?
[28:23] I didn't know that.
[28:25] Oh, come on. I mean, you're not a kid, right? You're not 14. No.
Okay, so a young woman is hanging around you and likes you, right?
And she's of dating age, and she's single, right?
I mean, I can't talk with people who play dumb. Like, I just, I can't do that.
I can't do it. Because if you were that dumb, we wouldn't be able to have a conversation.
Like you wouldn't be able to tie your own shoes, right?
[28:58] Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't see the problem in talking to someone for a while
before engaging into a relationship.
[29:16] Is that where we want to have our discussions, that you think I'm criticizing
you for talking to someone? Is that really where we're going to have our level
of conversation Because that's kind of boring.
[29:26] Oh I'm sorry I don't know.
[29:27] Do you think I'm criticizing you for talking to someone I'm talking to you Why
would I be criticizing you for
talking to someone You're just purposely reframing what I'm saying Right.
[29:36] That's how I interpreted the.
[29:38] Last comment No it's not I talk to people for a living right You know that right,
Have you listened to these call in shows before Yes Okay so do you think I'm
criticizing you for talking to someone No.
Do you think I'm criticizing you for talking to someone before you get engaged
in a sexual relationship?
[29:58] No.
[29:59] Okay, so what is there? You don't have to agree with it, but what do you think
is my potential mildly negative statement?
It's not some big criticism, but what is my potentially mildly negative statement?
Even if you don't agree with it, what do you think it might be?
[30:16] Well, I didn't say it.
I
You made the comment that I kept her dangling for a year before I started to date her.
[30:37] Right. And then you responded with, I had no idea she was attracted to me.
[30:43] Yeah.
[30:43] Or she liked me in that way, right? But if a woman, I mean, and that's why I
said, I can't give you that lack of intelligence, right? right?
I mean, she was young and single, right?
[30:58] True. Okay. No, I agree.
[31:00] And she was wanting to hang around with you, and she wanted to talk with you,
and she wanted to come and visit you, right?
So the idea that there's zero way to figure out if she has any romantic interest
in you at all, I can't operate at that level of playing dumb.
[31:17] No i no i i okay i'm sorry i recant my statement i agree i had the ink i i knew that she.
[31:23] Yeah you knew that she was attracted to you and listen i'm not saying this
makes you some big bad ogre she's got free will and she makes choices and all
of that but you know let's let's not operate at the level of i had no idea that
this woman who wanted to come and visit me who was young and single and really
loved spending time with me that she might i had no idea that she might even
remotely be interested in me from a romantic standpoint, right?
Like, I just, I can't, I can't do that stuff, right?
[31:49] Okay.
[31:50] Does that make sense?
[31:52] Yes.
[31:52] I mean, it must have crossed your mind, right?
[31:55] Right. Oh, yes. Yeah.
[31:56] Okay. So when I say you kept her dangling, is that, do you have any idea why
you didn't want to date her for the year, like in that year?
[32:09] Well, I mean, we were, we're far apart. I wasn't sure I wanted to do a long-distance
relationship like that.
[32:19] Okay.
[32:20] I think even for...
[32:23] And did you tell her that there was really no possibility of a romantic relationship,
because you were so far apart?
[32:33] No. No.
And I don't know that we were talking for a whole year. I'm just trying to give a general timeframe.
And us talking was reconnecting, and it's a gradual buildup.
[32:58] Okay. Do you think that a young single woman who wants to come and live with
you for a couple of weeks is just coming as a friend?
[33:06] No. I mean, by that point, I'm not saying I didn't. At that point,
I was intending to date her.
[33:15] Sorry, you were intending to date her?
[33:18] Yeah.
[33:19] Okay.
[33:19] That was partially the idea of this whole trip and this whole music festival
was to kind of initiate that.
[33:28] Right.
But let me ask you this. I mean, so she comes to visit you, and the barrier
before—and I'm not critical, I'm just curious—so the barrier was distance,
but how was that solved when you dated her?
[33:45] It wasn't.
[33:47] So that wasn't a big issue. It wasn't a big enough issue to keep you out of
the relationship. Do I have that right?
[33:53] Right. I was willing to try that.
[34:00] Sorry, again I'm confused because I thought you said earlier that you didn't
want to date her because the distance was too great and then you're willing
to date her even though the distance hasn't been solved.
[34:13] Yeah I mean,
you can I don't know I got over myself I guess.
[34:23] Okay So the distance wasn't a deal breaker Right Right.
I mean, if I say I'm never going to work for $40,000 a year and then I take
a job at $40,000 a year, my former statement is just not correct.
Now, of course, things could have changed and all of that, right?
[34:39] Well, when you're, you know, say you're not making any money for a year,
$40,000 doesn't sound so bad.
[34:46] Well, and I guess if you had no other romantic prospects, then you're willing to make this one, right?
[34:52] Correct. Correct.
[34:53] Okay. So it wasn't primarily the distance. It was, you know,
can I get someone closer? You couldn't get someone closer.
So you went with her. Right. Now, did she know when she was coming to visit
you that this was romantic in nature?
[35:09] I don't think, I don't know. I never explicitly said anything like that.
[35:17] Okay. It was a friendly.
[35:18] It was a friendly, like, hey, do you want to see this show?
[35:20] If you think that a woman who's coming to visit you and I assume stay with you, is that right?
[35:25] Yeah.
[35:27] I mean, I'm just sorry. I'm just having trouble understanding this. Okay.
So let's say that you have a wife, right? Your wife.
[35:39] Mm-hmm.
[35:40] And you have to go on some big business trip to the Far East for two weeks, right?
[35:48] Okay.
[35:48] And your wife says...
A young, attractive single man I met online is coming to sleep under our roof
for two weeks while you're away. How would you feel?
[36:04] I'd be highly suspicious.
[36:06] But why?
[36:10] Well, there's a lot of implications with that.
[36:13] Right. So when a woman comes to stay with you and live under your roof for a couple of weeks,
that i assume you've been somewhat half flirting with to some
degree over the last 10 12 months or
whatever right and then
i say did she know that there could be anything romantic about it and you said
i don't know but then you say well if my wife said i'm having a young attractive
single man i met online coming to stay with me for a couple of weeks while you're
away you'd say oh no that's highly suspect because i mean right yeah i'm trying
to well i wear these circles it's.
[36:49] I can i can assume as much with like with the context that you just brought
up but she didn't explicitly tell me hey i think this situation has sexual intent
or romantic intent so i can't say like Like, I know what she was thinking.
[37:11] Did you invite her over with the idea of potential romantic intent?
[37:19] Yes.
[37:21] So there was romantic intent for you. She's going to come and stay.
And you don't know if there's, I mean, you don't know for sure if there was
any romantic intent for her.
but you would assume that right yeah okay and so did she come and did i remember
this rightly she came to visit you twice is that right uh.
[37:45] Once i i went to visit her once.
[37:48] Ah okay and how long into your conversation was that.
[37:54] Um
i don't i don't know um I mean, that was maybe...
the nine or ten month mark because it was a couple of months after that that she flew out to me so.
[38:15] It was like nine or ten months that you went to visit her but there was no nothing
romantic that happened there is that right.
[38:21] Right we i mean we went to a show um i i stayed at her house i slept on her
couch um you know and then and then maybe there's slight flirtations and stuff,
but nothing really happened.
[38:41] And was this, again, out of concern for the distance?
[38:46] No. I mean, to be honest, I'm a pretty shy person.
Growing up, I've tried to work on that and make that better.
And like I said before, I'm not a ladies' man, so I'm not...
you know each of these experiences i'm i'm learning from and trying to do better the next time.
[39:09] No okay so um did you ever talk to her and say what is happening with our relationship,
or no i'm interested in you romantically but,
no i mean just man to man it just feels odd that you go visit some girl you've
been flirting with for nine months and you just sleep on her couch and you don't
say anything or ask any questions or Or does that seem not a bit odd?
[39:33] Oh, yeah. I won't deny that.
[39:36] Okay. I just wanted to make sure. Maybe there's been some big value shift.
You know, we've obviously, we've got some separation in age, but. Sorry, go ahead.
[39:44] No, like there's definitely opportunities for me to make them move, you know, and all that.
But like I said, I didn't make them.
[39:55] So why can't you?
uh make a move maybe one way of putting it but just have an honest conversation,
what's uh what's so hard about that and i don't
mean that in some sort of like what the hell so hard what's the matter with
you i'm just genuinely curious like why no why is that so hard for you to say
um you know what's the status of our relationship i'm interested in something
romantic or i'm attracted to you or like what's wrong with what what is so difficult
about just Just that kind of direct communication.
[40:27] Right. No, I understand. And I guess to maybe, I guess it's not quite jumping ahead,
but like in my most recent interaction with the girl that I had interest in,
I did do that. You know, we had started talking.
It came up that she had a boyfriend, but, you know, she was still kind of interacting
with me in a way that I thought like, okay, she's giving me interest.
So I was up front with her and I said, like, hey, you know, seems like you're interested in me.
I'm interested in you. But, you know, you said you have a boyfriend.
What's the story? Like, what's what's going on here?
You know, she said, you know, she's fully committed. Sorry for any mixed signals.
And, you know, and we moved on from that.
so i was there something other than.
[41:13] The distance thing i appreciate that update was there was there something about
this woman that you found unattractive outside of the distance.
[41:24] Yeah so after really talking
with her there you know there was i
i eventually would like to have a family
you know have children and that was one thing she
specifically said you know i don't see myself as a mother i don't like children
um so that was a big point um and there there is just different personality
things um she was i get to i don't know how you would she was very into,
into weird just for the sake of being weird, like just into chaos just because
chaos is cool kind of thing.
She wasn't going around disrupting things or whatever, but I don't know if that
makes sense. What does that mean?
I'm trying to... It's like a personality type where I'm trying to word it. She...
maybe i shouldn't have brought it up because i don't know how to fully explain it no that's.
[42:34] Fine i mean it's a relationship that didn't work out so you dated her for a couple of.
[42:38] Weeks and then.
[42:38] You broke up with her and was this mostly around the kid stuff yeah okay and
i guess you learned your lesson that avoiding communication can waste a year of your life right.
[42:47] Oh yeah okay.
[42:49] Got it got it all right so then uh what's happened since then.
[42:56] Um well pretty soon after that was um,
i guess pretty soon after that i think the next year was covid so that you know
that all happened i um shifted you know the job i had you know it's kind of a detour but the job i had,
shut down so i ended up getting another job for the for the time now back to
that job and And eventually was offered a job in a state out west.
And I took that. And this is within the course of another year and a half.
So then I decided to move out west and take another job there.
And I haven't had any kind of relationship since then, really.
The town I moved out to was pretty desolate. It was a resort town in the mountains.
um so there i don't know that you can see the the dating pool was pretty slim out there,
so that was kind of another reason for coming back here i live within a major
city area so there you know there's more people more chances to to meet somebody,
that's kind of where i'm at now with uh the dating scene okay.
[44:19] Got it got it so there's I wouldn't really count the polyamorous one the longest
successful relationship that you've had?
Or just the longest relationship?
[44:32] Yeah. The longest relationship I've had.
[44:36] Is what?
[44:39] That polyamorous one.
[44:40] Yeah, but that was polyamorous so you can't really count that.
So not counting that one plus you said it was on again, off again like continual,
the longest consistent continual relationship.
[44:51] It would probably be my first girlfriend in high school.
We dated one or two years.
Sorry, was that one or two?
[45:03] What do you mean?
[45:05] I'm trying to recall.
[45:07] Okay.
[45:08] We started dating.
[45:09] But that's like 15 years ago, isn't it?
[45:12] Yeah. Yeah.
[45:14] So why do you think you haven't really had a successful relationship in almost 15 years?
[45:21] I've I've,
A lot of times I've chalked it up to being a shy person and not putting myself out there as much.
[45:40] No, but shyness is not like cerebral palsy or something, right?
I mean, shyness is something you can work on if it's important enough.
So it's not that. Why do you think?
[45:55] I i've wondered sometimes it
so growing growing up seeing how
my parents were um i always
had a i wanted marriage to
be a um sorry my voice is starting to break um i was wanting marriage to be
like a big deal like to me you know wow um excuse me i wanted it to be a big
deal don't excuse yourself for being emotional about very important things.
[46:26] That's a good thing that's a good.
[46:28] Sign anyway.
[46:29] So go ahead.
[46:29] Um no thank you
um so i i guess i always put a lot of weight into that um but i've also always
had this thing in the back of my mind of kind of afraid to to re like reenact, be like my father.
Um, cause he, I don't know. He never really had a, he never had a successful relationship.
Oh, so I'm afraid.
[47:02] So, so let me, let me ask you this. Did your father have more successful relationships than you've had?
Um,
I mean, he got married, right? yeah yeah he had a kid married.
[47:18] Yeah he's so he's had had three kids.
[47:22] Okay so so he's become a father and i'm obviously not a great father but you
know he got married and he had kids and he's had other relationships and and
so on right is he in a relationship right now yes.
[47:35] He's got a girlfriend right now um.
[47:37] And how long is he going out oh.
[47:40] Maybe the better part of a year um.
[47:44] And what's his longest relationship? I know it's a little tough to know, but that you know of.
[47:51] Oh, um...
The longest that I know of is with the woman, my stepmom, ex-stepmom. I don't know.
He married a woman after my mother and had a child with her.
And they were together, gosh, I don't know how long.
Well, they got divorced when my sister was...
kind of young five maybe maybe like seven so they were together for about that
long you know they dated a bit they well no they dated for a couple of years before getting married.
[48:48] Okay and so i mean in many ways obviously not sustained but but your father's
been been more successful in his relationships than you have been right.
[48:57] Yes so.
[49:01] What's the worst case scenario for you with regards to your relationship uh
your relationships and your father and his impact on you what what's the what's
the fear there or what's maybe the the paralysis.
[49:11] I
well actually i've,
like i guess an example the when
the stepmom with the second marriage when that ended he was already seeing another
woman um and he had even brought like me and my sister like to like to putt
putt with her um i guess i don't know i guess to introduce us or something but that was,
a couple months before they accounted for us.
[49:51] Okay and and and i guess that about that i don't i don't know i i didn't really
take it a certain way at the time but when when they did get a divorce you know i i don't know i just,
i wasn't as concerned about it for me because i
didn't have a strong relationship with my stepmother but i was concerned of
how how my sister would take it all i i haven't talked to her about it but you
know she didn't i don't know i guess maybe i was worried i i felt bad for my sister.
[50:33] And then I guess just to finish off my dad's relationships,
he ended up dating that new girlfriend for a couple of years. They lived together.
And then they broke up.
up he was he ended up moving into
a friend's house uh started talking to excuse me
an old friend of his of her yeah an old friend of his i think from high school
or something and she lived out west they started seeing each other flying back
and forth and eventually he decided to move out west to live with her right okay Okay.
[51:22] All right. Got it.
So worst case scenario is what?
[51:31] I guess multiple marriages and multiple children.
[51:37] All right. And is that better? I mean, that must be worse than what you're doing, right? right?
Um, cause you're changing this over that. And I'm not saying these are the only
two options, but maybe in your head to some degree.
[51:54] I guess in my head, I'm, I'm trying to,
I'm trying to find a steady relationship that I can turn into a steady marriage
and, you know, and build a family from that.
[52:08] Are you, I'm not.
[52:10] I don't know. I'm, I'm not, uh, I'm not afraid of doing that or anything.
I feel like I can accomplish that.
[52:18] Okay, but you've been working on this project since you were in your mid-teens,
to some degree or another, right?
Just to have some sort of steady relationship, right? So 15 years with no success, right?
[52:33] Right.
[52:34] And you're not close.
[52:39] No.
[52:42] So, I mean, if I said I want to be an actor and I've never gotten hired for anything or kept a job,
and after 15 years, I'm not even going on auditions,
what would you say to me?
[53:02] Try harder.
[53:04] You'd say try harder?
[53:07] Yeah. If you say you want to be an actor and you're not trying...
[53:13] No but if i would if i were to say to you that my main goal for the last 15
years has been to be an actor and yet you.
[53:22] Haven't right right.
[53:24] Would you believe me no right because i mean if you really want to be an actor
i mean there's tons of people who are actors they're all over the place on tv
there are tons of people who are actors and what they do do is they,
you know, they study accents,
they study monologues, they go on endless auditions, they do amateur theater,
they, you know, build their, right, you know, right?
Now, that doesn't mean that they'll succeed, but they're certainly trying, right?
[53:52] Right.
[53:53] See, a man's priorities are measured by his actions.
And it's true for women too, but we're just talking man to man here,
right? So a man's priorities are measured by his actions. Is that fair?
[54:08] Yes.
[54:09] Because people can say whatever they want.
If I say I'm desperate to lose weight, but I keep eating more and more and more
and I don't exercise, then clearly I'm not particularly desperate to lose weight.
Because losing weight isn't actually that complicated, right?
I mean, it's not easy sometimes, but it's, you know, eat less,
exercise more. It's not that complicated, right?
[54:32] Right.
[54:33] And so I'm trying to figure out, certainly if you say, you know,
getting married and having kids is the goal,
then the severely emotionally disturbed polyamorous girl is not that, right?
[54:50] Right.
[54:51] And if you say, well, my goal is to get married and have a family,
and you kind of half flirt and visit with a girl for a year before even asking
if she wants to have a family.
I don't mean to laugh, but you understand why this is a challenge, right?
[55:07] Right.
[55:08] And you only, after you've flirted and traveled off and on for like a year,
and you start dating her, only then do you talk anything to her about whether
she even wants to have children.
or be a wife. Does that make sense?
So I guess that's my question is, that's not your goal. It can't be.
I mean, if I say my goal is to learn guitar,
and I never pick up guitar, and then I ended up, you know, I sign up for a year's
worth of lessons from a music teacher, and then only after a year,
you know, of going to him, and he's like, man, he just keeps teaching me piano.
And it's like, did you ever ask him if he teaches guitar? No.
Well, when I finally did ask him, he's like, no, I don't teach guitar. I don't, right? I don't.
Like then me wanting to learn guitar would be like, not true. Right.
[56:05] Right.
[56:06] And again, it's not critical. I mean, just where we learn about our lives is
through the empiricism of our actions. Right.
[56:15] Yeah. Yeah.
[56:19] So,
what is it that you're trying to achieve in what it is that you're actually doing?
What is your goal? Like the empirical goal, not your conscious goal or your
stated goal, but the empirical goal. Does that make sense?
[56:37] I,
maybe, do you mean, mean i like what what am i trying to do with myself.
[56:46] Well you have everybody has goals right,
right so you know one example would be uh just so it's a little less abstract
i know it's a little too abstract sorry that was that's my bad so one example
if if a woman says i just i want a great boyfriend this that and the other and
she's she's complaining about not having a great boyfriend but she also you
know doesn't take care of her personal hygiene and is 100 pounds overweight,
then her secret goal is to avoid having a boyfriend.
Like maybe she's, I don't know, maybe she was sexually abused as a child and
she needs to avoid intimacy because it's incredibly painful for her or something like that.
So there's the stated stuff and then there's the empirical stuff,
right? And the empirical stuff is the real stuff.
[57:33] Right. So I, yeah, so then I guess I've here recently, I've been trying to self-improve,
you know, I've been going to the gym.
[57:43] Oh, my gosh. No, no. I'm not talking about your goals now. I'm talking about the empirical.
I mean, you've been an adult for 12 years, right? It sounds like your career
is going relatively well. Is that right?
[57:58] Yeah. Yeah.
[57:58] Oh, good for you. Good for you. So you've been an adult for 12 years and you
say, like, I want to get married and have a family.
But you're pursuing actions in the complete opposite of that, right?
Polyamory girl and girl with boyfriend and girl with, like, you know,
the moment a woman says, she's flirting with you, as this woman was,
and she says, I have a boyfriend.
You stop seeing her. I mean, the idea of like, well, gee, really,
what's going on here? Like, no, you have some values, some standards yourself, right?
You don't date a woman who's cheating on her boyfriend, even if it's just flirtatious cheating?
[58:38] Well, and I wasn't going to. You know, when it first came up,
I didn't, you know, that was it.
She continued to talk to me, and it was pretty shortly after that I brought
it up. Like, hey, like, what's going on?
[58:51] No, I remember exactly what you said, but that's a passive thing.
[58:55] Right.
[58:56] But you say, go deal with your boyfriend and you block her.
Am I wrong? As opposed to, okay, so if you just said, what's going on?
And she said, you know, I'm really on the verge of breaking up with my boyfriend.
You're just such a way better guy.
I'd love to get together with you. I need to obviously to take some counseling
or to have a transition or something. Like, is the what's going on an opening?
[59:25] No.
[59:27] Sounds like it.
It's an invitation to explain, right?
[59:35] Yeah.
[59:43] Again, it's not a criticism. I'm just, if you're asking someone to explain,
it means you're willing to accept an explanation, right?
Or there's a potential explanation.
[59:55] Yeah.
[1:00:01] So you've got three girlfriends, or I guess the last one's not quite a girlfriend,
but you've got three whatevers that can't really lead to marriage and children, right?
[1:00:17] Right.
[1:00:18] So what is your secret goal? And going to the gym now and so on.
If you don't know your past secret goals, you can't fix the current discrepancy
between what you say you want and what you're actually doing. Does that make sense?
[1:00:37] Yeah.
[1:00:40] What have you been doing for the last 12 years that you've managed to avoid
a wife and family so efficiently? Yeah.
[1:00:48] But I guess it hasn't been my primary goal those last...
[1:00:54] Please stop being so much work. You've done the opposite.
So you're saying it's not my primary goal? Does that mean it's your secondary
goal? That means you suck at your secondary goal.
If you're doing the opposite, it's not, well, I'm not doing it quite as well.
Like if I say go north and you head south and you say, well,
I guess my primary goal is not exactly to head north. And it's like, you're heading south.
[1:01:17] Is right so.
[1:01:19] I mean this with affection but please stop being so much work and please stop
me me because you know i'm 57 years old i don't have much time left on the planet sorry.
[1:01:31] I you know you you watch these videos and you always never want to be that person.
[1:01:36] I know i sympathize and it's sad to me of course that these conversations are
not more common in society So I understand and I sympathize and I'm not mad at you or anything.
I'm just, I just can't do too much more of this fogging stuff.
It's just kind of, it's so obvious.
Right. Okay. No, it's fine. It's fine. So, but what it does is it tells me that
you're surrounded by people who listen to this nonsense.
I don't mean that you're nonsense. I just mean this fogging stuff.
[1:02:06] Right.
[1:02:07] Who should have been having these conversations with you?
[1:02:13] My my friends and my family well my parents.
[1:02:18] Well your parents right yeah so
who is it in your life who works like who's who's trained you to to put out
these ridiculous excuses and these avoidances and this fog and this right so
what's going on in your relationships your primary relationships let's talk
in particular with your it sounds like you're closer to your stepdad than your dad is Is that right?
[1:02:44] Um, I don't know. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And no.
[1:02:50] Okay. That's fine. So I don't want to get overly complicated,
but that stuff. So we'll just say that they're equal. Okay.
So you have your mother and two fathers.
and have they had direct conversations with you about the fact that you're 30
and further away from getting married and having children than you were when
you were 18 now do you know why you're further away.
[1:03:17] Hmm. No, I could guess, but no.
[1:03:24] Okay. So if you're an employee, right, and you're 18 years old,
and you have almost no track record of working, and you go for a job,
your resume is pretty thin, which means you get judged on who you are at the interview, right?
[1:03:37] Yeah.
[1:03:38] Now, if you're 30 and you have 12 years of work experience,
and it mostly involves being unemployed, being in dead-end jobs or getting fired,
or saying, oh, no, I worked for some place for a year for free,
and then I finally asked them what the salary was, and it turns out they didn't even want to pay me.
So, you then have a 12-year track record of pretty terrible work decisions, right?
[1:04:07] Yeah.
[1:04:08] So right now if you're looking for a woman who's 30 let's
say now she's single too so i
get all of that but maybe she was in a long-term relationship and the guy got
eaten by a shark you know something that's really not her fault right yeah so
a woman looks at you at 30 right at 18 you could say well it was a high school
romance and we moved apart or something like that so but a woman looks at you
at 30, and she sees, okay,
so he hasn't dated for long periods of time, he dated a polyamorous girl,
got involved in some weird romantic triangle that went on for a long time,
and then he dated, half-dated a girl or flirted with a girl,
they went to visit each other, nobody talked about anything,
and then he dumped her a couple of weeks after dating her because he found out,
even after knowing her for a year and having some romantic interest,
that she didn't even want kids,
and then he got involved with a woman who was floating on her boyfriend I mean how do you look?
[1:05:06] Pretty bad.
[1:05:09] Yeah. And I'm not trying to make you feel bad.
I'm really not. I'm just saying that when you say, well, it hasn't been my primary
goal, you're building a moat around yourself.
[1:05:22] Right.
[1:05:23] You're building a big moat around yourself.
[1:05:25] I've been avoiding it.
[1:05:26] By accumulating experiences that bar you from having much of a chance with a
high-quality woman. Does this make sense?
[1:05:36] Yeah.
[1:05:39] It's so you haven't dated you've self-sabotaged now when i say self-sabotaged
i mean that the people around you have allowed your lust to cause you to sin against your future,
did your mother or either of your fathers know that the girl you were dating was into polyamory.
[1:06:04] Yeah i had talked to my mother about it at some point while it was going on.
[1:06:10] So you talked to your mother about my girlfriend has talked me into polyamory
right yeah and what did your mother say she.
[1:06:21] Didn't approve you know she said i shouldn't i shouldn't do that.
[1:06:26] Okay, and did you talk to any of the men in your two fathers?
[1:06:32] No.
[1:06:33] Why not?
[1:06:35] I guess my primary relationship has always been with my mother.
[1:06:43] Well, it's not that primary relationship if you don't take any advice from her
in these essential areas.
[1:06:51] Yeah.
[1:06:52] Why did she say it was bad? What was her argument? given?
[1:07:04] I couldn't recall the exact conversation.
I think she had told me it's just not good for me, not healthy for me.
She told me that she thinks I should break up, not be a part of that.
um and i guess that that's a repeat you know to also include in that you know my my first,
high school uh when we
had got serious my mom gave me
similar advice saying you know just be careful you know don't don't get too
serious don't let her uh you know because at the time that that girlfriend wanted
to move into a house together um and she didn't want me going to college my
mom said you know that's not good don't,
it's just like a high school thing but why.
[1:08:03] Was that not good?
I mean did you love her?
I mean the girlfriend um.
[1:08:18] I would say it was, what do they call it, like puppy love?
I don't know that it was, I don't think that was a good relationship either.
And plus, that whole, the whole moving in thing was, so she had a stepmom that was kind of crazy.
And there, I don't know, there was weird stuff where, you know,
supposedly she wasn't allowed to see her step that's
her knows her biological mom um she
wasn't allowed to see her because of some i don't know something
that happened in the past they her parents got a divorce but
she would still she's like oh i'm going to see my mother this weekend she's
gonna buy me some stuff um and that mother you know she was had money i don't
know if it was her own or her husband's um she was going to buy the house for
us and it was just that like that That was not a good situation to be in.
[1:09:20] Okay. And how much did your mother know about all of this when you started dating
your high school girlfriend?
[1:09:30] I would say my mother knew most of it while it was happening.
Maybe not the day I found out, but maybe soon afterwards. words we had talked
about most most of those things and.
[1:09:47] Did she say right away this is not a good situation or or how long did that take.
[1:09:52] Yeah i mean she was like oh that's not good.
[1:10:02] Right, but you didn't listen to her then either, right?
[1:10:07] Well, not at first. I mean, I did at the point where I didn't do it.
[1:10:10] You said you dated for a year or two. Please, God almighty.
[1:10:13] Right.
[1:10:13] Let's stop wasting time. You dated her for a year or two. Your mother said at
the beginning, don't date her.
[1:10:19] I mean, that instance, you know, with the whole... No, I didn't listen to her at first, but like...
[1:10:25] No, no, that's not at first when you date someone in your teens for a year or two.
I mean, in other words, you didn't break up with the girl because you listened to your mother.
You broke up with the girl because of other reasons, right?
[1:10:43] Right.
[1:10:44] Okay. So you didn't listen to her. You didn't date the woman when your mother
said, don't date the girl.
And you didn't break up with her because your mother said something,
because your mother had already said something at the beginning, right?
[1:10:56] Right.
[1:10:56] So you didn't listen to her. Can we, again, I'm just trying to beg you to have a stop wasting time.
[1:11:01] I'm sorry, I guess I I'm sorry No.
[1:11:06] Like you go to this fog place Well, not at first It's like One to two years,
So You have this place you go Where you kind of disintegrate Or like you're
trying to disintegrate the other person Right,
Which means you don't take clear feedback, and this is probably from yourself.
Like, you don't have this habit with me. Like, we're just starting to talk,
right? We're just meeting for the first time.
So you have this habit with yourself, right?
[1:11:47] Yeah.
[1:11:48] Is that right?
[1:11:49] Oh, yeah. My self-dialogue's a lot like this.
[1:11:53] Well, this, well, complicated, well, that, well, the other, right?
[1:11:58] Yeah.
[1:12:01] There's so many different factors at play and it's all kind of massive and murky
and machinery and right is that right yeah.
[1:12:08] Yeah yeah well.
[1:12:11] That's what happens when you don't live off principles and empiricism and i'm
not saying you don't at all right you're successful in your career so you have
empiricism and principles there right i mean i assume that when you're at work
and somebody asks you to do something you don't give these kinds of nonsense non-answers right,
Right. Is that right?
[1:12:31] Oh, right.
[1:12:32] Right. So you're decisive and you're empirical and you're principled at work, right?
[1:12:37] Yeah.
[1:12:37] And that's what's working in your life. Do I understand this correctly?
[1:12:41] Yeah.
[1:12:43] But then you're not principled and not decisive and not empirical in your love life.
And that's what's not working, right?
[1:12:52] Right.
[1:12:53] Okay, good. So we understand that, right? So as best as you can, don't fuck me.
[1:12:59] Okay. Okay.
[1:13:02] Right. Because you have this, like, if I say something that's blindingly obvious,
my mother told me not to date this woman.
I dated her for another year or two and then broke up with her for reasons unrelated
to what my mother said, right?
[1:13:15] Right.
[1:13:16] Right. So that's obvious, right? So when I say, if you say, my mother told me
not to date her, I went ahead and dated her anyway.
And I say, so you didn't listen to your mother.
That's obvious, isn't it?
If I say, don't join the Merchant Marines, and you go and join the Merchant
Marines and then quit two years later because you got injured,
and someone says, well, I guess you didn't listen to Steph, and it's like,
well, I kind of did because I did eventually quit the Merchant Marines.
It's like, but not because of what I said.
[1:13:55] Right, right.
[1:13:57] That's all I'm begging you for here.
[1:14:01] Okay.
[1:14:02] So who lets you get away with this stuff?
And again, I'm not saying you're doing anything bad or sinister or anything
like that, but who just nods when you go to Fogland? Who's just like, yep, that's okay.
[1:14:22] I don't know. Everybody, because no one really brings it up like you do.
[1:14:31] You okay so when you were dating the polyamory girl and your mother said don't
do it it's gross it's weird it's bad it's unhealthy did she follow up did she
say what's happening with the polyamory girl are you still doing it or like,
Or was it like a one-and-done conversation?
[1:14:56] It wasn't one-and-done. I mean, the kind of, like, she would check in on, like, what's going on.
But that was about it.
That was really a major conversation. I guess it was kind of a one and done
as far as like the depth of what was going on.
[1:15:23] And did you keep her updated and say, now the polyamory girl where I'm supposed
to be the primary boyfriend.
Now she spends the high quality time, which is the weekends with the other guy.
[1:15:35] No.
[1:15:37] So why, why wouldn't you,
I'm trying to figure out how close you are to your mom. Cause this is the fundamental question, right?
right i mean you don't listen to her advice you
don't keep her updated on essential developments in your relationships
right and she doesn't call you out on the fog stuff right yeah so i'm i'm just
trying to figure out how how are you close okay so you you hidden from her because
she was asking you about the polyamorous relationship and you hid from her that you'd been delegated,
to second tier, right? Because, I mean, Weekend is top tier, right?
[1:16:19] Oh, yeah.
[1:16:22] So you lied to her and you hid things from her in something which you had already involved her in, right?
[1:16:28] Yeah.
[1:16:30] So why do you lie to your mother and hide things from her? And I know this sounds
like some big critical thing. Again, it's just general curiosity.
[1:16:38] No, I mean, I would agree. I do that. And I...
I don't know if you'll like this answer, but I don't know.
[1:16:46] Well, you do. You do know, obviously. You know, we can go through this ritual
if you want, and I know it's coming, so I'm aware of that. I'm not blaming you for that.
But, okay, so why do you lie to
your mother and all things from her after involving her in the situation?
[1:17:02] I guess maybe it's like a form of embarrassment.
Like, I'm embarrassed to be in that situation.
and maybe i i know that sometimes i will kind of assume i know what she's going
to say or i know you know a lot of times i don't talk to my stepdad because
i kind of like i know what he's going to say well and that's like that's.
[1:17:32] Fine i mean you also know to some degree what i'm going to say but we're still talking right.
[1:17:36] So it's not.
[1:17:38] That knowing what someone is going to say is not it in particular.
I mean, if you know what someone's going to say and you don't respect what they
have to say, then it wouldn't be a productive conversation if I understand this correctly.
[1:17:54] Yeah.
[1:17:57] And when did this habit start, if you remember, with your mother?
[1:18:05] Um...
Maybe it was probably around, you know, around high school.
I was doing, I was doing bad things, but just doing things I didn't bring up with my mom.
Well, no, so when growing up, my mother was pretty, I guess,
strict, you know, as far as,
wanted a lot of communication. Around that age, I was going to hang out with
friends a lot, and she was the type of mother to text me when you're leaving,
text me when you get there, text me this and that.
At the time, I guess I was rebellious because I would have friends who...
He was the third child, so his parents were more lenient on him.
hey, I'm going out. Okay, see you tomorrow kind of thing. So I guess I was jealous.
[1:19:13] Okay, so it was in your mid-teens that you started lying to your mom, right?
[1:19:17] Yeah.
[1:19:18] And before that, you generally told her the truth?
[1:19:23] No, actually, thinking about it, in preschool, I was pretty troublesome.
I would like what
one time you know like one time I stole a
thing from a kid you know it was like a little knickknack I didn't I got in
trouble for it there I would I think I got in trouble for copying homework I
got trouble like one time I know that's not that major but the,
I got in trouble for like running on the walls that I took a dollar to like hit a kid once.
Um, so I, I, I don't know. I did a lot of things that that particular age.
Um, and I, I didn't do it after that.
[1:20:20] Well, so that you could say that's misbehavior, but is that the same as lying to your mom?
Did you lie to your mom about these things? No, she would be informed by the school, wouldn't she?
[1:20:29] Right but you know if just to kind of generalize it like if she would ask me
like hey did you do this I'd be like you know trying to hide from it I would say no like did you.
[1:20:40] Okay so why do you think you lied to her and again listen I mean I understand
that's a general human thing and kids do that a lot so again this is not some
big terrible thing but why do you think,
you lied to her about these things.
[1:21:02] Um, well, I knew, but, you know, it early on, you know, that in my kindergarten specifically,
when I got in trouble, I would get, you know, spanked and get to get the belt.
[1:21:19] I'm sorry, who would give you the belt?
[1:21:21] My mom.
[1:21:22] Oh, your mom would beat you with the belt.
[1:21:25] Yeah.
[1:21:26] Okay. And how often would that happen?
[1:21:32] Um about as often as you know i got in trouble it wasn't every time but you know if it was okay so.
[1:21:38] The next question obviously is how often did you get in.
[1:21:41] Trouble,
so if i'm right um,
gosh i it hard
for me to recall but well i mean every year maybe every month no every six months
weekly weekly bi-weekly i mean it was sorry bi-weekly means like once a week
or every two weeks like once a week or every two once every two weeks okay.
[1:22:09] So you might get what 30 to 35 beatings with a belt as a little boy every year.
[1:22:15] Um yeah may just and this was only for a year or two and she those stopped.
[1:22:28] Oh do you know why.
[1:22:32] No my thought is that she,
I like my thought is that she like I don't know for lack of a better term knew
better or like learned better,
from then we went to other types
of like you know i was around that time i started to get an allowance so my
my punishments were more allowance based you know like here's a popsicle per
dollar you get you get in trouble you lose a popsicle or you do something good
you get an you get a popsicle that kind of thing oh.
[1:23:11] Okay so it wasn't uh verbal aggression it was carrots and sticks oh no actually
not even sticks carrots or the withdrawal of carrots so to speak right is that
is that right Right, so she wasn't like verbally aggressive or putting you down in that way?
[1:23:27] No.
There would be some times where she would yell and get mad, you know?
Um, I, I, I wonder if maybe sometimes that maybe she was stressed from work
or something else and, you know, maybe stressed from her own relationship.
[1:23:57] Oh, so we're going through excuses here?
[1:24:00] No, I'm.
[1:24:01] Because it doesn't sound like she gave you a lot of excuses when you were a child.
[1:24:07] Right.
[1:24:07] Did she say, oh, well, you didn't do well on the test, but you know,
your father left or you're stressed for this or that or the other,
or you didn't get as much sleep or, right? Did she give you excuses?
[1:24:18] Right. No.
[1:24:19] Okay, so if you don't give excuses, you don't get excuses, right?
[1:24:23] Yeah.
[1:24:25] Okay, so what would she say when she was angry and yelling?
[1:24:36] Things like,
gosh I haven't thought about this in a while,
I guess I don't know I can't believe you've done that she wouldn't I mean there
would be times she would use curse words but it wasn't It wasn't berating me.
[1:25:04] So what's an example?
[1:25:08] Oh, like, yell at me. So, like, I guess, like, one example would be,
like, she would yell at me on the way home, like, shouldn't be doing that.
I can't believe we did that, you know.
That's, that's wrong behavior.
And then we'd go home. Once we get home, there, There was one time,
sorry, I'm trying to refrain from drifting off.
There was one time she yelled at me. She's like, I'm so mad.
I can't even look at you. Just go into your room. Okay, but none of these.
[1:25:46] Sorry, you'd mentioned curse words, and that's sort of what I was curious about.
[1:25:50] Okay, okay. Well, no, the curse words weren't, I'm going to say,
They weren't directed at me.
It was more so like, I can't fucking believe this, or I can't do this shit kind of thing.
[1:26:03] Okay, but she wasn't like, you're stupid, you're mad, you're selfish, you're...
[1:26:10] No, nothing like that. Okay.
[1:26:12] And what about your father and stepfather?
[1:26:17] I...
My father never really corrected me on anything.
There was one time, he's not very confrontational.
There was one time he got upset. I don't know what he was upset about,
but I just remember one time that he seemed upset about something.
He was kind of short with me about something. But it was like, don't do that.
[1:26:46] Sorry, but you say your father didn't correct you. I mean, all children need correcting.
[1:26:51] Right?
[1:26:52] Yeah i mean that's to correct the child is is actually to parent the child.
[1:26:57] Right and i guess so i would i would be with at my father's on the on the weekend,
um and that was it you know going to dad's house was kind of a vacation it was
a break from from mom's house.
[1:27:15] Yeah that's fog land again so i'm asking you
what your father did your father correct you you want anything don't eat
this eat that uh not too much screen time uh you need to get some more exercise
uh uh like how are things going at school what's going on with friends are you
in what courses do you like uh it can i help you with anything uh did he teach
you stuff wisdom knowledge how to interact how did it like anything.
[1:27:42] I i mean we would we would talk about you know like hey how like how's school
doing or what Like, what are you doing?
But he...
It wasn't... No, I mean, he never really...
i'm trying to think like like sam i'll pretty much the majority of my upbringing
is through my mother you know all the but.
[1:28:10] What about your stepdad.
[1:28:13] He he taught me stuff you know i don't mean practical things like.
[1:28:18] Fishing or whatever right but moral.
[1:28:20] Lessons or.
[1:28:21] Life lessons or communication lessons or virtual lessons on virtue or integrity or what?
[1:28:30] My stepdad definitely has taught me more of those things than my actual dad.
He would tell me, teach me things of,
how to be a man kind of things, how to...
Yeah, stuff like that. But again, it was... i was i was mom's kid and you know
like all the all of the correcting and like parenting was was through mom that's
how that relationship that's how that was set sorry.
[1:29:08] He taught you how to be a man but.
[1:29:11] Well parenting.
[1:29:13] Was through your mom i'm sorry i'm just trying i'm maybe.
[1:29:15] Something no right no and but i'm well i guess that that's that's the i guess
that's to say hey, that's the most that I've got, was what I got from him.
[1:29:28] And what were his lessons about how to be a man?
Your stepfather, so I guess your dad was just, I don't know,
it's like being raised by a toddler or something, but your stepdad, what were his lessons?
[1:29:42] Well, of course, different practical things, but as far as the abstracts,
he definitely helped me get out of my shell and I know he helped he was tougher on me,
in the sense to because he could see that I was a shy kid and whatnot so he
He worked on me to break me out of my shell. Sorry, I know that's fake.
So he taught me...
Being more...
Gosh, I'm...
[1:30:55] Well, it's good that you're noticing when you go to fog land. That's a big step up.
[1:31:00] Yeah, sorry. And I don't know how, how do I avoid that?
[1:31:09] No, no. What did your stepfather teach you about being a man?
And I'm not, I mean, I'm not skeptical. I just want to know.
[1:31:24] I i see he taught me more about being stern,
um
because you.
[1:31:36] Know i mean one definition of manhood would be you
don't date a woman who cucks you with another guy yeah so
i'm trying to i'm trying to figure out what and you said
well i'm still shy and right so i'm trying
to figure out what you learned that had you do the things that you do either
he didn't teach you or he taught or you didn't listen or he taught you the entirely
wrong things one of the least manly things to do is to share the woman you really
really care about was some other guy,
some other stud who's going to screw her brains out on the weekends, right?
While you just drum your fingers and wait for Monday to roll around, right?
So if this is you with the instruction from your stepfather on how to be a man,
I'm again, a little baffled.
[1:32:23] Well, and I never told him about that, any of that. He definitely didn't think that was.
[1:32:29] Do you think it matters that you told him?
[1:32:34] No.
[1:32:34] If you'd learned how to be a man, you wouldn't have done polyamory second tier cuck.
[1:32:41] Yeah.
[1:32:41] Whether you told him or not is irrelevant.
Am I wrong?
[1:32:54] No.
[1:32:55] And he taught you how to be, what, direct and stern and... Then why are you
still so indirect? And I'm not criticizing you, I'm just...
if somebody says, this guy taught me how to oar and you're putting the wrong
end in the water, I have questions.
[1:33:12] Yeah.
[1:33:13] It's good news because if you weren't taught this stuff, then it makes sense that you didn't do it.
If you were taught it and you went ahead and did, like if you were taught how
to be a man and then you got cucked by some guy on the weekends,
that would be a bigger problem in my view.
[1:33:27] Yeah. Right.
[1:33:31] So what are you feeling at the moment?
[1:33:34] I I,
I feel like there's a lot I never learned. I have.
[1:33:50] Which is fantastic news.
[1:33:52] Yeah.
[1:33:53] Right?
[1:33:55] Yeah. I mean, there is a lot to explain.
[1:33:58] And, sorry, go ahead.
[1:34:04] Well, there's more so that I realize I haven't learned.
You know, I knew there were things I never learned, but I tried to figure them out on my own.
and I felt like I recognized certain things with talking. I guess I didn't ever learn any of it.
[1:34:21] And you said that there were times when you didn't lie to your mother, right? Or lied less?
Because I remember you saying in your teens you were doing a lot of stuff that
was quote bad and you lied to your mother about it and then you said also when
you were younger but were there times where you lied less?
[1:34:42] Um yeah or just i mean i wasn't i wasn't doing bad things it it was just like if if,
you know i was at a friend's house and we went egging you know i didn't tell
him you know i wasn't you know if i stayed at a friend's house i wasn't supposed
to go anywhere else but if we went somewhere else like we went to the park or
or i did this thing and go egging you know i didn't tell her that okay.
[1:35:08] So i mean egging is pretty minor right.
[1:35:11] Yeah i mean and were there more important things that.
[1:35:16] You didn't tell her the truth about.
[1:35:18] No okay.
[1:35:22] Now do you think that your mother knows when you're telling her the truth or
does not know when you're lying i.
[1:35:30] Think i think she,
I don't want to say that she doesn't know but I think she trusts me she trusts that I would,
tell her the truth.
[1:35:46] And is she right to do that?
no so she trusts you when she maybe shouldn't at times right yeah okay and,
does she trust you because she believes you're telling the truth or does she
trust you because she doesn't know but that's a default position i.
[1:36:15] Think she she trusts me because she trusts that i I am doing the right thing.
[1:36:26] Doing and telling, these are two separate categories.
[1:36:30] Right.
[1:36:31] So with regards to, does your mother trust you because she believes that you're
telling the truth to her or because she just trusts you as a default and she
doesn't know the difference or notice the difference?
[1:36:44] I think because she believes, because she believes one thing.
[1:36:49] Okay, so your mother is not particularly good at figuring out truth from falsehood, is that right?
[1:36:57] Yeah.
[1:36:57] In her son?
[1:36:58] I would agree, yeah.
[1:37:01] I mean, I could.
[1:37:04] Well, no, I mean, I think she can tell, like, if, I don't know if this rates,
but she can tell, like, if I'm in a bad mood or something, like,
she can tell if something's wrong with me.
Um, but she will trust, she trusts that I will talk to her if I have an issue,
if I'm going through something or.
Okay.
[1:37:35] Now, have you told your parents, all three of them, I guess,
have you told your parents that you want to get married and have children?
[1:37:46] Yeah.
[1:37:47] And when did you first tell them that?
[1:37:52] Um
Well, it's, so it's been one of those things where it's kind of assumed,
you know, when you're going through life, that's a general life thing,
but it was, I explicitly brought up, you know, definitely after college.
[1:38:14] Okay. So like for eight years, give or take, you have been, you've had the explicit
goal of getting married and having children.
So you told your parents about that. And again, I know there could be some fog
here and there, but it's been a while.
[1:38:29] No, I would say from the beginning, my mom had always talked to me as if,
you know, being a good husband, you know, it was always this idea.
[1:38:42] Okay, so she's wanted you to get married since you became an adult, right?
[1:38:51] Yeah.
[1:38:53] Okay, and you have also expressed your desire to her to get married for eight or so years. Off and on.
[1:38:59] Yes. Yes.
[1:39:02] So what steps have your parents done to try and help you achieve the goal that you all want for you?
[1:39:12] They've encouraged me to go out, you know, meet people.
They've suggested people that I go meet, you know, friends or family kind of thing.
when I talked to my mom about why different relationships didn't work she would
agree that yes you want to marry and have kids that woman didn't so I agree
that you should have broke up with her,
right now Now, they're helping me look for a house.
They're giving me a place to stay where I can save up money to buy a house.
And then in which case...
[1:40:10] Okay, so it's either your fault, or it's the woman's fault, or it's a lack of housing.
That's sort of what I'm getting as to why you're not... Like,
according to your parents, that's why you're not married?
[1:40:27] Um, no, I would say according to them, I just, I haven't met the right woman yet.
[1:40:33] Okay. I mean, I'm just, I'm kind of curious. Do they have any self-criticism
at all about how they raised you as to why maybe you're not married? Anything?
[1:40:48] I, I, I think my mom might have.
[1:40:53] No, no, I don't want theories. I don't want conjecture and theories.
Have they taken any ownership and said, well, you know, I did beat you.
That must have been pretty unpleasant.
And I stopped it because I was wrong, but I've never talked to you about it. Or, oh, I don't know.
I married a guy who didn't give you any education on how to be a man.
I divorced the guy.
And you really haven't had any training on masculinity.
I can't provide that as a woman. and I didn't ensure that you got that from
your father or from your stepfather.
I mean, is there anything that your parents have done that indicates any self-ownership
for how they raised you and the problems that might have engendered in your
goal of getting married?
[1:41:43] No. I think the closest would be just an aside given of,
I think of sometimes when talking to my dad about something like this,
relationship-wise, he would say,
well, I'm probably not the best to give relationship advice.
So there's a little bit of...
[1:42:08] But there's no...
[1:42:11] No.
[1:42:12] So if he knows he's not the best to give relationship advice,
then shouldn't he make sure that you do have someone who gives you relationship advice?
[1:42:24] He would think.
[1:42:27] Like if a friend of mine says, I have this weird lump on my shoulder,
and I say, listen, I'm not a doctor or a dermatologist, you've got to go to a dermatologist.
Or a doctor or something, right?
[1:42:40] Yeah. Right.
[1:42:46] So that's not really helping you right so do your parents say,
we have a lot to do with why you're not married and let's talk about that no,
why not.
[1:43:07] I
I don't know.
[1:43:14] Except you do so we can play this game if you want so why don't they take any responsibility right,
Okay, let me ask you this. Is it a parent's job to prepare a child for adult relationships?
[1:43:40] Yes.
[1:43:41] Right. Have they done that? Successfully prepared you for adult relationships?
[1:43:48] No. Okay.
[1:43:50] It's not funny.
[1:43:51] Right.
[1:43:52] Right. So they have not.
And they won't even acknowledge that they haven't, that they failed.
instead they blame the woman they blame real estate or you right,
yeah so and the worst thing is in my view you have inherited which is perfectly
understandable and I say this with great sympathy,
you have inherited an aversion to self-criticism which is why you keep going to fog land,
now the reason that you have have inherited an aversion to self-criticism,
is your parents, it doesn't seem like to me, have any capacity for self-criticism at all.
[1:44:43] Because you take it all on yourself. And what I see from the outside,
and correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see from the outside is we have an entire
family structure that raised a child,
and has as the goal of raising the child a successful adult relationship.
And this child has gone for 15 years without a successful adult relationship
and no one's taking responsibility who raised you.
Nobody's taking responsibility who advised you.
nobody's saying this goal this plan which is essential for your happiness,
is not being achieved we need to do everything possible to figure out why no
they're putting their defensiveness above your happiness,
right the reason that you're not married is not because you haven't met the
right person it's not because you didn't have your own house it's not because
a woman was just this, that, or the other.
The reason you're not married is you lack relationship skills, in my view.
And I say that with sympathy. I mean, I don't speak Japanese.
I wasn't raised with Japanese.
But at least I know I don't speak Japanese, and if I want to speak Japanese, I know what to do.
I don't just tell myself, I do speak Japanese when I'm just speaking gobbledygook, right? Right?
[1:46:08] Right.
[1:46:09] So do you know how to evaluate a potential partner?
Do you know how to be assertive in relationships? Do you know how to both provide
value and receive value?
You do in the business world because you're successful, right?
[1:46:24] Right.
[1:46:25] Same principles apply in the dating world.
[1:46:32] Okay.
[1:46:33] Because at the age of 30, you know, you're still half mucking about with girls who have boyfriends.
And I say this with sympathy. So it's been 15 years. Oh, let's,
you know, make it as an adult. So 12 years, it's been 12 years.
So you've got an entire family structure that should be devoted to helping you
achieve that which brings the greatest happiness, which is love.
It hasn't been achieved. And the people in charge of the project,
and your parents are always in charge of the project.
Always. You can be 70 and they can be 95. They're still in charge of the project.
[1:47:12] Yeah.
[1:47:13] So the people in charge of the project have failed.
Now, I don't know if you've ever been in the business world where somebody's
been in charge of a project that is repeatedly failing and screwing up in every
conceivable dimension, and all they do is blame others.
[1:47:35] Not in a professional sense, no. Like school projects, group projects, but yeah.
[1:47:40] But you can imagine that there would be such a person in the business world
who they have a job and they
keep failing at their job but it's never
their fault it's the economy it's the customer it's the supplier it's the inflation
it's never even though other people are succeeding in exactly the same environment
they blame every single one of their failures on something external right now
you know that person's never going to improve right Right.
Now, sometimes to help our children, we need to submit to some pretty scolding
self-criticism, right?
[1:48:18] Yeah.
[1:48:19] But that's, right, that's the job, because what matters is what helps our children the most.
And if being self-critical helps our children the most, then that's what we
do, right? Because you're there to help your children.
And has anyone in your parents' circle surrendered themselves to self-criticism
or said, you know, gee, I've really been thinking about why things aren't working
out for you dating or romantically.
And I have some theories. Here's the things I think I did wrong.
Here's the things that we haven't been helping you with. You know, tell me what you think.
Let's really dig in. And, you know, if we've got to spend the whole weekend
jawboning, let's do that.
[1:48:54] No, it was never laid out like that.
I would say at most it was kind of a fogland conversation where mom was kind
of, I know we maybe didn't have the best situation,
but we made the best of it kind of thing.
[1:49:14] Sorry, what? This is your mother. Is she talking about your father?
[1:49:19] No, just talking about my upbringing in general.
[1:49:24] She says we didn't have the best situation what
does that mean i mean this was her choice this right
she chose to bury your father she chose to separate from your father she chose
where you lived she chose today like what do you mean she so she completely
self-abdicate she's just like a leaf on the breeze yeah i guess sorry i guess
it's one of these annoying phrases because if If it's wrong, it's wrong.
If it's right, it's right. But I guess it's just more fun playing.
[1:49:54] But that's what she said.
[1:49:57] Okay, so if she says we weren't in the best situation.
Yeah, listen, if you and I are flying across the Andes and we crash and,
you know, we have to eat people, we're not in the best situation.
[1:50:13] Right.
[1:50:15] But who you choose to marry and have children with and separate from, that's all chosen.
Those are all choices. That's not a situation.
Does that make sense?
You know, if some guy gets his friend and they go to rob a bank and then they're
pinned down by a SWAT team, and he says, well, I guess this isn't the best situation,
it's like, you chose to rob the bank!
[1:50:44] Right.
[1:50:51] What does your mother refer to, what is she referring to when she says we're
not in the best situation?
[1:50:58] Um...
she i guess she she never liked the idea of,
she she doesn't like not being married to to the to stepdad no.
[1:51:20] But when you know,
that's more now i assume or maybe was it back then too.
[1:51:30] I i don't i don't know about initial like when i was a kid but i i know no no
but you do know you must know what she's referring to you must.
[1:51:39] Know what she's referring to not the best situation as.
[1:51:42] A kid i um,
i mean i mean it like i said it was like one of those fog land conversations
where it's a lot is you know she okay.
[1:51:58] All right so if if you don't know you don't know now.
[1:52:00] Let me.
[1:52:02] Uh let me ask you this do you think that you have any habits around fogging and passivity.
[1:52:17] Yeah, I mean, I'm doing it right now.
[1:52:20] I think so, right? A little bit rubber bones, a little bit fogging, right?
Now, do you know when your mother says, when your mother says,
it wasn't the best situation, but we did the best we could, who is the we she's referring to there?
[1:52:35] Her and myself. Right.
[1:52:37] So she's equating you and her. So she's not being...
[1:52:41] It's always been like...
[1:52:42] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:52:43] Sorry. No, it's always been like... there's always been this talk of like it's you and me.
[1:52:51] Well but she's the mother so there is no we with regards to circumstances because
she chooses the circumstances you don't,
yeah right so if she's trying to bind you and her together oh you and me against
the world you and me we had to survive this you and me we had to but we did
the best we could right so she's She's making an equation there, right?
That you and she have the same level of willpower and choices and effect on life, right?
[1:53:27] Right.
[1:53:27] So either you had as much choice as she did and you were equal,
in which case you should have been able to beat her with a belt if she did something
you didn't like, but that never happened, right? So she has perfect authority
when it comes to abusing you.
She has perfect authority, but if you have any criticisms, oh,
it's you and me, honey, we're equals.
[1:53:52] Right.
[1:54:00] But you weren't equals. She was the mother. She was fully in charge.
She determined the entire circumstances of your childhood.
and she beat you dozens of times when you displeased her, and she punished you
thereafter with money and other goodies.
So you weren't equals.
See, all of this, all of this, the reason I've been talking to you about this
stuff for so long is all of this is based on the fundamental question,
should I take care of my mother? Is that right?
[1:54:38] Correct.
[1:54:38] Okay. So my question is, did she parent?
And parenting means putting the needs of your children first,
doing things to benefit them, regardless of personal discomfort.
I mean, if there was a newborn and the mom said, oh, I don't want to get up.
I'm just going to put earplugs in and shut my door and I don't want to get up
because I'm tired. We would say that's a bad mother, right?
[1:55:06] Right.
[1:55:06] Because she's not feeding the child who desperately needs food because it would
be uncomfortable for her, right?
[1:55:12] Right.
[1:55:13] So that's not parenting.
So, did your mother, I mean, it doesn't sound like your two fathers did much parenting.
[1:55:28] No.
[1:55:29] Did your mother parent you?
Did she engage with you? Did she learn about you? Did she stimulate the best within you?
Did she make sacrifices for you,
even if those sacrifices include personal discomfort and self-criticism?
Has she put your needs first? Does she devote herself to your well-being?
Is she willing to do whatever it takes to help you achieve happiness,
even if this means turning laser eyes on herself?
Did she teach you virtues, principles, practicalities? How to think?
Why be good? Did she teach you everything that she learned from her own mistakes?
Did she teach you all the red flags that you need to see that she maybe didn't see in your father?
Did she instruct you on how to live? Did she teach you how to be safe?
Did she teach you who you should give your heart to and who you should keep
your heart distant from?
Was she wise? Did she transfer those virtues and that wisdom to you so that
you can stride confidently in life with the best possible instruction that she's capable of?
That's apparent.
[1:56:42] No, I mean, no.
[1:56:45] And I know she didn't. I know that the parents didn't because you're calling me.
And you were untutored, as far as I can see. And so you're just kind of feeling your way along.
And you don't listen to your mother because she doesn't have any credibility
for you because the way that you gain credibility is to do what is difficult.
I mean, nobody says to me, Steph, you're an excellent walker.
Walking isn't that difficult, right?
Now, maybe if I injured my leg and had to go through rehab, oh,
good walking or whatever, right?
But your mother takes the easy path. If there's criticism, she just fogs and
pretends, sir, that you were just two people struggling against difficult forces
in the world, brother and sister, like, I don't know, like a toddler.
Your father gave you no instruction, and your mother didn't say,
listen, you've got to give him instruction.
Your father just kind of flaked out and faded out. Well, I'm maybe not the best
person to go, right? Well, you should have learned from that.
Even if you're a fat guy, you can say to people, don't do what I do,
and here's what I did, and here's what I didn't learn, and here's, right?
here's the mistakes I'm making, so you can at least learn how to avoid those.
But your father just kind of flaked out, right?
[1:58:01] Yeah.
[1:58:02] And you didn't share some essential information about dating and so on with
your stepfather, right?
Because you knew what he was going to say, and what he was going to say was going to be useless.
Am I wrong?
[1:58:16] Right.
[1:58:20] So you're untutored you're unparented to a large degree,
So if you don't respect your parents, why would you want to become a parent?
If you think that this is good parenting, why would you want to become a parent?
Why would you want to voluntarily step into a role populated by people you don't
respect who didn't really do much parenting at all, at the moral level?
Like, why would you want to do that? Why would that be a high goal for you?
Parenting is mealy-mouthed self-justification, manipulation,
falsehood, and the avoidance of all personal responsibility while inflicting
significant punishments on your children.
How's that for a job description? Do you want that job?
[1:59:19] But I didn't want to do all of that.
I wanted to learn from all that.
[1:59:32] Okay how much of this is news to you how much of what I'm saying is new to you,
it's not it's not new to you I.
[1:59:41] Do know this has been in the back of my head I've just been afraid to.
[1:59:47] Actually why don't you tell me when I'm going through all of this work I already know this stuff,
I'm not criticizing I'm just genuinely curious right.
[1:59:59] Well it's I guess trying to explain all the backstory and whatnot and hard to,
I don't know, hard to, you get put on the spot.
[2:00:13] Yeah, that's more excuses. So I know, listen, I know you don't know this stuff.
I know you don't know this stuff. How do I know?
[2:00:28] Um from what i've told you well.
[2:00:30] That's very generic and a non-answer.
[2:00:33] I don't how do you know.
[2:00:38] I'm sorry i'm just gonna wait for all that background noise to stop sorry.
[2:00:41] I'm i i have to move my car but it's not starting oh.
[2:00:44] Okay listen no take your time i don't want you to be distracted while you drive
so pretend i'm not here and just let me know when you're done but don't don't
feel any stress or worry just focus on your driving and be safe Okay.
I'll just mute here and then you tell me when you're done.
[2:01:03] Okay.
[2:01:04] No rush at all. Take your time. Thanks. All right. Are we back?
[2:01:10] Hi. Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.
[2:01:11] No, that's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Okay. So, yes.
So, why do I think, or rather, how do I know that you do know all of these things,
or that you don't know many of these things, at least consciously?
about how unparented you were.
[2:01:31] Well, is it because I called you? Is it because I called and asked?
Or asked a separate question, but...
[2:01:40] Well, again, that's very generic. All right, so this is the message that you sent me.
And I'm not sort of reading this to catch you out or anything like that.
I'm just telling you this is the sort of evidence.
[2:01:52] Oh, sure. Sure.
[2:01:54] A couple of years ago, I moved out west for a job and a sense of adventure.
However, the living situation out there, as well as the company I worked for, were not ideal.
A couple of years later, I moved back home to be closer to family and live in a more affordable area.
I recognized my duty as a single child to take care of my mother in her later years.
So you feel a very grave sense of obligation to your mother because she mothered you, right?
She parented you. I mean, if you had a guy who was a sperm donor,
let's just take an extreme example, right?
If you had a guy who was a sperm donor, then would you feel obligated to take
care of him in his old age?
[2:02:36] No.
[2:02:37] Well, why not? I mean, he's your father.
[2:02:42] But he wouldn't have physically done anything for my caretaking, for my upbringing.
[2:02:50] So he didn't parent you? Right.
So, if your parents had been great and wonderful and involved and caring,
then when they got older,
and I know people like this, so I'm not speaking out of my armpit,
if your parents were great and wonderful and nice and thoughtful and had raised
you well and you were happily married and so on, then when they got older and they needed some help,
I mean, I think in general, you'd say, well, yeah, I'll do that.
I mean, I'm so grateful to them and I love them so much and I want to make their
lives as comfortable as possible.
And you would do that, and you wouldn't call me, right?
[2:03:37] Right.
[2:03:37] So why are you calling me? Because part of you doesn't want to do it.
[2:03:44] Yeah.
[2:03:45] Right?
[2:03:46] Yeah.
[2:03:47] Now, everyone's going to tell you all about, oh, the obligations,
and your parents, and they did this, and they did that, and you owe them this.
Everyone's going to tell you that. that.
But it doesn't really mean anything.
[2:04:00] Right.
[2:04:00] Right. So what I'm interested in is the part of you that doesn't want to.
Now, what we can do, of course, and what a lot of people do is they say,
oh, well, but you should just want to, you know, it's an obligation.
They did this, they did that, and you just have to, right? All this stuff, right?
[2:04:17] Right.
[2:04:17] But that's not philosophy. That's just manipulative guilting, right?
[2:04:22] Right.
[2:04:23] So what I'm interested in is, okay, so this guy doesn't want to do this part
to take care of his aging mother, is that right?
[2:04:35] Yeah, I mean, she's not elderly. She's in her 50s, but it's coming.
Okay, but she also has.
[2:04:46] Effectively, Effectively, she has a husband, right?
[2:04:50] Yes.
[2:04:51] So I'm trying to figure out why that would be on you.
[2:04:59] Right.
[2:05:01] And again, I'm happy to hear, right, but she has someone to take care of her.
So I'm sort of trying to figure out, you know, when I get these kinds of messages,
right, I'm just telling you sort of my thinking, I'm trying to figure out why is this on you?
[2:05:18] Um, well, I know I, when this is what pops into my head, when I initially left to go out West.
Um, so my, my parents had COVID, they went through all that.
And I was the one that was taking, you know, my stepdad was in the hospital, but my mom was at home.
I was the one that was taking care of her. so when i brought up that i wanted
to leave my stepdad said that like you know who's basically said like who's
going to take care of us you know like.
[2:05:52] If we're both down and.
[2:05:54] Out yeah and.
[2:05:56] What does that mean take care of them they're in their 50s i'm in my 50s i'm
in my late 50s right i mean so help me understand what your stepfather was it
your father or your stepfather your stepfather right step stepfather okay so
what what what do you what did your stepfather mean i'm like who's going to take care of us yeah.
[2:06:16] Just when if they're both you know like in that situation they were like one
was hospitalized the other was bedridden the only person that could take care
of them was me you know the.
[2:06:28] Only person i don't intend sorry i don't just like i know i'm sorry i don't
i don't understand the only person that could take care of them is you what does that mean,
i mean there's there's nurses there's doctors there's in-home care there's all
sorts of people who take care of the nurse.
[2:06:48] The hospital turned my mom away they wanted nothing to do with her.
[2:06:51] What why hospitals aren't allowed legally to turn people away as far as i know well.
[2:06:58] That's that's it because it was it was coming you know they.
[2:07:01] Oh, okay. So the once in a thousand years pandemic, right?
What would that have to do with anything?
[2:07:15] It's the fact that they got a severe illness and needed assistance.
They needed someone else other than the two of them to make sure they're doing okay.
[2:07:31] Okay, so are they part of a church?
[2:07:37] No.
[2:07:38] Are they part of a community?
[2:07:41] I mean, yeah, they have family members, but I guess I'm thinking more in the
lines of if they all die, and it's just them.
[2:07:56] I'm sorry, if who all dies?
[2:07:59] The supposed family members that would take care of them if they're in a situation.
[2:08:06] Sorry I'm really trying to sort of so if there's a mass extinction event is that.
[2:08:13] No but say you know.
[2:08:21] Again, sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just trying to understand what the scenario is here.
[2:08:27] And I apologize. I'm trying to give a situation without being too general,
like give my situation. No, no, no.
[2:08:36] This is your stepfather's issue, right?
[2:08:41] Yeah.
[2:08:41] Okay, so I'm trying to figure out why you have to.
[2:08:47] He doesn't have any other. Oh, sorry. Well, he doesn't have any other children
or any, like, I'm his only son, quote unquote.
[2:09:00] Why didn't he have any other children? Do you know?
[2:09:05] I don't know.
[2:09:08] And how old were you when he came into your life?
[2:09:13] They started dating. I was, it was around, like. preschool, kindergarten.
When they started dating, it was really serious. And he moved in,
maybe grade school.
[2:09:31] Okay.
[2:09:31] And they've been together since then.
[2:09:34] Sorry. Did he want more children with your mother? Is that right?
[2:09:39] I don't think so. That I don't know. I don't, that never came up.
My, I know that my mom, she told me once, like when having me, she only wanted one kid.
So I don't, I imagined that she didn't want another one.
[2:09:56] Okay. Okay, so they had only one child and they chose not to have more children together, right?
[2:10:04] Yeah.
[2:10:05] Okay, so they saved a huge amount of money by not having, say,
two or three kids, right?
[2:10:10] Right.
[2:10:11] Okay, so they saved a huge amount of money by not having a bunch of kids.
And so they should take that money and make sure that they have it set aside for when they get old.
Right, so that they can hire the kind of care that they need.
Because, I mean, what are the odds if there's that kind of medical catastrophe,
what are you supposed to do? You're not a doctor.
Like, they need home care. They need all of that stuff, right?
I mean, if you only have one kid, you know, kids cost, I don't know,
depends on where you are or whatever estimates there are that's going on,
but kids cost at least a couple hundred thousand dollars to raise, right?
And they chose, so let's say they saved themselves half a million dollars 30
years ago, so they invest that half a million dollars or something like that,
and then that money grows,
or maybe you talk to them about crypto, I don't know, right?
So then they have more than enough money for being taken care of by professionals, not you, right?
Because you've got a life to live.
You've got a life to lead. You have a woman to meet, you have children to raise,
you have a career, you're going to have to travel.
So I'm not quite sure I understand the problem. Sorry, sorry to be obtuse.
I mean, do they have money?
[2:11:32] No. No, not really.
I mean, my stepdad, I think it's called working class.
He was able to buy a house in a nice area early on.
So he has wealth in that sense.
[2:11:56] Oh, okay. So that's good. So he can sell the house. They can move to a smaller
place, which they don't need a big house, obviously, so he can sell the house
and he can use that for his medical and care expenses, right?
And we're probably talking at least 20 years from now, right? They're in their 50s.
[2:12:12] Yeah.
[2:12:14] So, again, I'm not seeing. Are they still working, your parents?
[2:12:20] Yeah. Yeah, they're still working.
[2:12:23] Okay, so they're working. They're saving. They've had their entire life to work.
They've saved a whole bunch of money. You know, there are lots of working-class families.
I know them. They have four or five or six children.
Your parents had only one, so they saved a lot of money.
And, of course, as parents, they would be responsible, right?
And they would say, listen, the last thing we want to do is to burden our son
when he's in the process of marrying and raising children. The last thing we'd
ever want to do is burden our son with expenses and time, right?
So we absolutely have to set aside money and resources to take care of all of that, right?
There's, I mean, disability insurance will pay you if you get disabled or old.
There's, of course, death benefits if somebody were to die.
So I'm sure that they've got insurance and, you know, all of the basic things
that responsible parents do to make sure that they're not a burden to their children, right?
[2:13:24] Right.
[2:13:24] Do you know if they have disability insurance.
[2:13:28] No they don't what.
[2:13:31] Do you mean they.
[2:13:33] Don't have they don't have disability insurance not
that i'm aware of i mean i know that's that's
a shame really insurance but they should get disability insurance shouldn't
they yeah i guess probably what do you mean i know they have i know know they
have general like general health insurance i don't think they have anything specific like that but.
[2:13:56] Isn't isn't i'm sorry your your your stepfather is very concerned about being disabled right.
[2:14:05] Yeah, or at least at the time when he brought that up.
[2:14:07] Okay, well, are we fucking here again?
Oh, God. No. See, if he's not worried about it now, why are we talking?
If there's no concern about it now, are we fucking again?
[2:14:20] No.
[2:14:22] Because, you know, I don't have infinite patience for this stuff.
I've got to get on with my day, too, right?
[2:14:27] Sure.
[2:14:28] So your stepfather is very concerned about being disabled, right? Right?
So, because if you're very concerned about being disabled, then you would say,
I mean, he would know about insurance, right?
[2:14:41] Right.
[2:14:42] So he'd get disability insurance. Now, if he didn't get disability insurance,
okay, well then he can just go and buy it now, right?
[2:14:51] Right.
[2:14:52] And then they'll be taken care of, uh, bills and, and income and in-home care
and all of that will be, will be taken care of, right?
[2:15:02] Right.
[2:15:03] Am I wrong?
[2:15:06] No.
[2:15:07] So why wouldn't you, I mean, why wouldn't you just tell them that?
If you're concerned about health issues, then you need to get some disability insurance.
Now, that doesn't mean you won't care, doesn't mean you won't help out or whatever,
but you can't, what are you, are you supposed to put your whole life on hold
because your parents who are in their fifties might, might get unwell? No.
[2:15:33] That i i that was the that was the dilemma i had that was the like you said
that's what people say so that was that's what i.
[2:15:43] Know why no why is it a dilemma so your father your father is saying i'm worried
oh sorry it's not a dilemma it's not a dilemma at all so your father is coming
to you and saying i'm worried about getting old and sick right so yeah that's
that's a that is a concern,
That's part of life, you know, that's definitely a concern.
And so you can help him to solve that concern, right?
But I don't know that you say, I have to put my life on hold and hang around
here for 20 years in case my parents get ill.
[2:16:24] So it's right for me to do that?
[2:16:27] Do what?
[2:16:33] There's this, and you can tell my voice is cracking again.
There's this, I don't know, emotional barrier about doing that.
[2:16:44] Sorry, doing what?
[2:16:46] Sorry.
[2:16:47] Of giving them practical solutions to a problem?
[2:16:51] Of it i guess like
me leaving for i don't know i guess me leaving for 20 years it seemed like in
an abandonment sort of situation in the sense that me assuming me being here
is taking care of them so me leaving is not taking care of them.
[2:17:11] I'm not sure what you mean by taking care of them They're adults in their 50s.
Are they in decent health?
[2:17:18] No.
My stepdad's probably in decent health.
But my mom has issues. She's diabetic.
She has some other ongoing issues.
[2:17:40] Is she diabetic like the genetic kind?
[2:17:45] Um no it's the like the lifestyle later um i think yeah because like what type
one's like you can get that like it's wrong in your body type two is the yeah the lifestyle kind and.
[2:17:58] Why what what in her lifestyle has given her diabetes.
[2:18:03] I think it's diet and inactivity so.
[2:18:09] She overeats and she doesn't exercise size.
[2:18:11] Yeah and she's now she's been i will i i do want to say that she has been,
dieting she's been working on that you know she like right now she's she walks
more often so she she is consciously watching what she eats and and all that
but like and sorry how yeah how.
[2:18:35] How overweight is she?
[2:18:37] Not very. You know, she's not obese.
[2:18:43] Okay.
So she just, what was, didn't exercise?
[2:18:50] Yeah, just didn't exercise.
[2:18:54] Which is her choice, right?
[2:18:56] Right.
[2:18:57] So why would her bad choices be a dictatorship on you? Did you ever suggest
that she might want to exercise a little more?
[2:19:08] No. What?
[2:19:11] Why not?
[2:19:11] I have now, but...
[2:19:13] No, no.
[2:19:14] When she was told...
[2:19:15] Come on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Your mother doesn't exercise,
is that right? Or didn't in the past, right?
[2:19:25] Didn't in the past.
[2:19:26] Okay. And for how long did she not exercise?
[2:19:30] I...
As long as I... Well, she, except for various moments, you know,
there was a time when she had some.
[2:19:43] Okay, now come on, I'm not going into this level of granularity. I have a life to live.
Okay, please, for the love of all this God, did she exercise in any consistent way?
[2:19:52] Veridically. Not consistently.
[2:19:54] Okay, so no, the answer is no, she did not exercise in any consistent way,
right? And she also ate poorly, right?
[2:20:01] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
[2:20:02] So she ate poorly and she didn't exercise in any consistent way, right?
[2:20:06] Right.
[2:20:08] And you never said to her, mom, I love you. You've got to exercise.
You've got to eat better.
[2:20:14] Yeah. So I've, I've said that.
[2:20:17] I don't just mean recently.
[2:20:26] Yeah. I mean, I've said it in the past.
[2:20:29] Okay. So she didn't take your advice. You told her, here's how to avoid getting ill, right?
And she didn't listen to your advice, right?
[2:20:41] Right.
[2:20:43] So who's responsible for that?
[2:20:46] Her.
[2:20:47] Right. So why is that on you?
[2:20:50] It's not.
[2:20:51] I don't think so.
[2:21:02] And this is what I'd, if you didn't care about your mom enough,
and I'm not blaming you for this, right?
I'm just saying, if you didn't care enough about your mom to tell her to eat
better and exercise to the point where she has a pretty dangerous illness,
why would you start pretending to care about her now?
If you didn't care about her enough to prevent this, or at least help prevent
this, why, I don't understand.
If I don't care enough about a friend of mine to even say to him,
you got to exercise and eat better and really make that stick or really,
you know, really go for that and really make that happen as you know,
if I don't care about a friend of mine enough to really help him prevent getting sick,
then why would I care about him in particular being sick?
See I think I think what happened Is and again I don't want you to feel Like
a bad guy or anything I think what happened is You're mad at your parents For
not parenting you So you didn't do too much To intervene in their Bad health decisions.
[2:22:11] Now you can ignore me As a kid I'll just watch you get sick,
you sabotage me with indifference and let me date for 15 years without ever
helping me get a proper mate you sabotage me with indifference hey guess what
mom i'll sabotage you with indifference,
and now you're attempting to cover up all of that manipulation that's going
both ways with With guilt, right?
[2:22:42] Yeah.
[2:22:46] Am I wrong?
[2:22:49] No, no, no, you're right.
[2:22:53] And you're enmeshed in all of this, right? You're living in their house, you're... Right?
[2:22:58] Yeah.
[2:23:01] You said, I'm afraid of being too far from my mother to help when in need,
but also afraid that I will never be happy and feel stuck.
She has mentioned that if I will be happier somewhere else, she would support
that, but there is always an underlying guilt in the idea of my being that far.
I feel my mother raised me well enough to warrant this commitment to her.
okay so if you feel that your mother raised me well enough sorry if you feel
that your mother raised you well enough to warrant this commitment then you wouldn't call me right.
[2:23:28] All right i.
[2:23:29] Know you're calling me because you don't feel that otherwise you wouldn't call
me right right how do i know i'm not being guilted to stay close because i'm mom's only child child.
Now, I'm the parent of an only child. So, of course, it's fundamentally incumbent
upon me to make sure I do not become a burden because she can't share that burden
with other children. Does that make sense?
[2:23:53] Right.
[2:23:54] That's the job. I mean, it's not a surprise to them that you're an only child, right?
[2:23:59] Right.
[2:24:00] So, you've got to make sure that you don't become a burden to your only child.
So, you've got to save your money. You've got to have lots of insurance.
You've got to have have a community that can help you, especially because you're
not even married, right?
[2:24:14] Right.
[2:24:15] And so how are you going to get married if you're taking care of aging relatives?
[2:24:22] Yeah.
[2:24:26] So it's completely unfair to ask you.
[2:24:30] Yeah.
[2:24:40] You know, plus, you know, they made a marital commitment to stay together,
your biological father and mother, they made a marital commitment to be together forever, right?
[2:24:54] Yeah.
[2:24:55] Better or worse?
[2:24:58] Right.
[2:24:59] Till death do us part, in sickness and in health, right?
[2:25:03] Right.
[2:25:05] Did they keep those vows?
[2:25:08] No.
[2:25:09] No.
So, they already say you don't have to keep your vows. You don't have to.
Even relationships that you chose, you don't have to keep those vows, right?
[2:25:23] Right.
[2:25:31] I mean, it seems to me like you're just kind of half not there,
not just in this call but in your life and you're just bouncing off other people's needs.
Do you want to stay in the neighborhood to take care of your parents?
Sorry?
[2:26:05] No, I don't. Okay.
[2:26:09] Have you signed a contract? Are you legally and or foundationally morally obligated
to take care of people who didn't do much parenting to you?
See how easy philosophy is?
[2:26:31] Yeah.
[2:26:32] I mean, you're talking about wanting to take care of them. Have you talked to
your three parents about the deficiencies in their parenting?
[2:26:44] No.
[2:26:46] So, I mean, you can't even tell the truth to these people and you want to wipe
their butts for 20 years?
right crazy all right,
i mean i i i can't tell you what to do obviously but
if i were in your shoes i'd be like okay well let me at
least have honest and direct conversations with these people and say listen
i i really uh i have i have real problems taking care of you like i really do
i i feel like i was kind of unraised i feel like this family has kind of left
me dangling for 12 years and and i really didn't get much instruction on how
to be a father or a man or a husband.
And we have this kind of nonsense relationship where we don't talk about anything
particularly important.
And mom, you keep equating the two of us like it was you and I against the world
when you're supposed to be the mother.
You beat me when I was little. Like there's a lot of problems.
There's a lot of stuff to unpack here.
I need to have a direct conversation with you people because I'm tired of not
existing in this relationship.
[2:27:51] I mean, the idea that you have massive obligations with people you can't even
be honest with, it's incomprehensible to me.
Yes, I will absolutely put my life on hold and maybe not get married and have
children, but I won't tell you the truth about what I think and feel.
[2:28:21] I mean, if you don't have an obligation to tell the truth, what other obligations mean anything?
[2:28:30] Yeah.
[2:28:32] Tell the truth and then see what obligations arise from that.
But I can't imagine having an obligation to someone that involves sacrificing
your entire life when you don't even feel like you have an obligation to tell
them the truth about what you think and feel.
If that makes sense.
[2:28:48] It does, yeah. Yeah, because I wouldn't feel the same for a stranger.
And that's how it feels being described.
You know, a stranger didn't give me anything. I wouldn't give anything to them.
[2:29:04] I mean, you have a history and I get all of that, but I would just say that, be honest.
The first obligation we have, if we claim to have a relationship,
isn't the first obligation we have to tell the truth.
[2:29:18] Yeah.
[2:29:19] Right? I mean, if you get some woman to fall for you because you claim to be
some Dogecoin zillionaire and an astronaut and a pilot and it's all a lie,
it's not a real relationship, is it?
[2:29:33] No.
[2:29:33] That's just an exploitation of gullibility, right?
[2:29:37] Right, right.
[2:29:37] So if you claim to have a relationship, and I'm not saying you don't,
but if you have a relationship, shouldn't your first responsibility be to tell the truth?
[2:29:47] Yes.
[2:29:49] So, tell the truth. I mean, all these other obligations and so on,
I don't know what's on the other side of telling the truth, but it's not real now.
Everyone's just avoiding topics. Everyone's just avoiding contact.
Everybody's just avoiding the facts.
I mean, your parents want to avoid it for obvious reasons, and you're going
along with it. Okay, but let's not pretend that's any kind of real relationship.
If you can't tell the truth to people, you're not in a relationship.
I mean, about foundational things, you know, whatever, right?
[2:30:19] Right.
[2:30:22] So that's my thought about it.
Before you get involved in these massive brain-spanning obligations,
how about you just tell the truth about what you think and feel?
[2:30:39] Okay.
Yeah.
[2:30:48] Because, I mean, that's why you can't get a wife, because you're not used to telling the truth.
You say it's shyness. No, you're just afraid to tell the truth,
because I assume that you feel, and I'm sure you're right, you'll be punished for telling the truth.
Because, you know, if people are exploiting you and you tell the truth,
you become inconvenient to them, and they'll sometimes get mad at you, right?
So maybe that's the scenario. It could be something else, but that would be my guess.
Does that make sense?
[2:31:13] Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Sorry, I'm taking it in.
[2:31:25] No, listen, that's no problem. I mean, we've been talking for almost three hours.
It's a long call, and so I'll probably end here.
And of course, you can listen to this back. But, you know, first of all,
massive sympathies. Like, I mean, I'm really sorry that you were so untrained.
untrained and i'm glad if you're finding things on the
internet that are helping you learn a little bit more about these things i think
that's fantastic and good for you and i'm i'm really sorry uh
that you were so untrained if it's any consolation i was untrained as well and
it took me a long time to get my uh crap together in any way shape or form so
don't feel don't feel bad about that i think we're all in similar boats those
of us who are you know raised by wolves would be better because at least then
we'd know how to chew on the neck of a deer but so yeah i I mean,
huge, huge amounts of sympathies.
And I mean, I'm sure you can get what you want, but you need to practice being
present in a relationship because a woman will sense that, right?
A woman will sense, oh, this guy just kind of dodges and avoids and minimizes
and gaslights and fogs and isn't direct. And it's like, that's too exhausting, right?
[2:32:21] Yeah.
[2:32:22] She's probably like a quality woman is going to be like, no,
I need a man who can tell the truth.
And you really can't be more honest than your least honest relationship.
Like you can't be honest in life more than your least honest relationship.
And if you have a relationship with your parents, that's all about lying and
hiding and pretending things aren't what they are.
And then that's going to falsify everything.
And then you're not going to be able to find a quality woman because she's going
to sense that falseness and say, well, there may be a great guy in there,
but I don't have any consistent access to him. So the better he is,
the more torture it will be.
It's like you're starving and your favorite food is locked on the other side
of the iron bars. It's like, that's really frustrating. Yeah.
Anything else you wanted to mention?
[2:33:10] No, I just an extreme thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
[2:33:18] Oh, listen, man, you're absolutely worth it. You're a great guy,
and I really, really appreciate your honesty and openness with this stuff,
because I obviously do know that it could be kind of rough, and you did a fantastic job.
[2:33:31] Thank you. Yeah, I'm definitely going to take this to heart.
[2:33:36] All right. Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:33:39] Will do. Yeah. So much stuff.
[2:33:42] Oh, tell me. Tell me what you're feeling, brother.
[2:33:44] Oh, it's...
It almost feels like a way is lifted in a sense where there's a direct path.
I can have this conversation open and honest day.
If it goes one way, right, if it goes the other way, awesome.
I know what the situation is and I can react to that.
[2:34:13] Clarity is everything. And if you could do me one other favor,
please don't drive when you're upset.
I know you're feeling quite emotional. And if you could do me a real solid,
you know, have your emotions and respect your emotions, but please don't drive
until you feel calmer because, as you know, emotions and strong emotions and
good driving don't usually go hand in hand.
[2:34:33] All right. No. Yep. I promise. us.
[2:34:35] All right. Keep me posted. Thanks for the call, man. Take care.
[2:34:38] Will do. Thank you. Take care.
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