0:00 - Introduction and Concerns
2:25 - Childhood Memories and Family Dynamics
7:58 - Growing Up and Family Roles
19:50 - Sister's Life and Struggles
26:50 - Parental Relationships and Childhood Environment
32:53 - Household Dynamics
42:03 - Early Exposure
51:53 - Coping Mechanisms
56:32 - Impact of Words
58:43 - Deceptive Relationships
1:06:11 - Monstrous Immorality
1:11:32 - Cruel Lies of Childhood
1:19:36 - Survival Mechanisms
In this episode, I engage in heartfelt conversations with various callers, delving into the complexities of their past experiences and emotional journeys. One caller bravely opens up about feeling overshadowed by a sibling with a disability, sharing feelings of neglect and insignificance that have colored her childhood. Together, we explore her deep-seated emotions, leading to a shift in perspective as she begins to recognize her blessings amidst the challenges. Through our dialogue, I provide a supportive space for her to process and find solace in understanding her personal history.
Another caller shares their struggles growing up in a family with strained relationships and a somber atmosphere, reflecting on the impact of living with a disabled sister. Memories of a joyless household emerge, prompting the caller to seek answers and emotional resolution while navigating complex dynamics with their parents. Together, we delve into the challenges of seeking understanding and closure in the face of past traumas, offering guidance and empathy along the way.
In a poignant discussion, a caller recounts teenage escapades marked by risky behaviors and past traumas, including emotional and physical abuse from a parent. They express confusion over their parents' differential treatment of relatives and themselves, grappling with the emotional turmoil caused by their upbringing. Our conversation delves into the complexities of seeking closure and deciding on future interactions with their parents, ultimately leading to a profound acknowledgment of the abuse endured.
Throughout these conversations, I address dysfunctional and abusive behaviors, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and breaking free from toxic patterns. I empathize with survival mechanisms while encouraging honesty and self-acceptance as crucial steps towards healing. Together, we navigate the challenges of confronting abusive pasts, reclaiming personal narratives, and fostering healthier relationships moving forward.
Lastly, we explore the concept of holding onto lies even after the threat has passed, drawing connections between survival instincts and family dynamics. I engage a caller in introspective discussions on familial love, self-serving beliefs, and the impact of past experiences on present behaviors. Our dialogue prompts critical reflection on family relationships and the complexities of truth-telling, culminating in plans for continued discussion and personal growth.
[0:00] Hello, hello, hello. Good morning. How are you doing?
[0:04] Hi. I'm pretty nervous, but doing all right.
[0:06] Yes, no, I'm terrifying. I get that. Every time I look in the mirror in the morning, I'm like, ah! So, no, I get that. Understandable. Very intimidating. Most terror. So, we'll do our best to work past it and cross our fingers. So, all right. Do you want to read the message? What would you like to do to start?
[0:29] Okay so it says uh i have been in conflict within myself for the past three months i do not know how to move forward i defood from both my parents and my twin sister in 2020 it was really hard i was miserable at times poor for a while and struggled with a feeling with feeling safe for a long time i was immensely grateful to have my brother motivate me and emotionally support me through it all he even introduced me to the love of my life with whom I now have a lovely baby with. This past year, he has met a woman who seems to be the love of his own. He moved halfway across the world to be with her, and now we live far away because of it. I am dealing with familiar feelings of abandonment and a profound pain. It feels that part of my world has changed from the great cozy and wholesome life we had. I feel shocked with the change, and I'm stuck in a cycle of wanting to enjoy on my first year of motherhood versus feeling the painful reminder with every milestone that my brother is in here to share it.
[1:34] And as well as feelings of self-doubt and guilt. I struggle a lot with making and keeping friends. My brother has been there my whole life and I'm not ready or want to say goodbye. But it feels like he has done it for me. I have already tried talking about it with my family, my brother, my therapist and myself multiple times. It has not helped. I'm not sure 100% what I want from the call. So Parami wants a strong reaction from you, either agreeing or disagreeing with how I see the situation and see what kind of response that will generate in me. Thanks again for doing this.
[2:12] You're welcome. And I appreciate the mountain of you talk to everyone and it's become so desperate you'll talk to me. No, I appreciate that challenge and I will obviously try to do my best to help.
[2:26] so tell me a little bit about i i think this is the first twin defu i've i've heard of or or talked with so if you can tell me a little bit about what happened with your family i can get a sort of backdrop for this well.
[2:40] Um i've um i don't know where to begin it like a lot of time but um i don't have a lot of memories from like when i was little little middle. I remember stuff here and there and mostly from, I think, when I was 10 years old. I was born premature, that I know from my mom, with my sister. We were in the NICU for some time, and she had an accident during that time, but ended with her on a wheelchair. chair and your mother.
[3:19] Had an accident right after you were born oh.
[3:22] Sorry no no my sister oh you're you're a twin yeah okay so she.
[3:27] Had an accident what does that like in the neck.
[3:30] Yeah like uh i don't know what happened because i've gotten like very different stories like um the first thing The first thing that I heard was that the nurse that was supposed to look after her went for a coffee and then my sister was without oxygen for a while and that affected her brain. Like she had a, how do you call it, a hemorrhage in the brain. And she lost, like, nowadays she can't control her legs really well, and she has a hand that she can't control either.
[4:07] And did she end up with mental disabilities as well, or physical?
[4:12] It's all physical.
[4:13] It's all physical, okay.
[4:15] Yeah. Later on, my grandma, like, this is when I was already, like, 21. My grandma told me a different story, that the day that I was meant to get out of the NICU, my sister was supposed to still be there, but the hospital mixed her names and she was out when she was supposed to. and my mom well my parents basically got in the car to pick me up and when they got there they like were shown with the situation that like they had messed up and my sister had had the, the problem and and yeah like it was permanent wow i'm just talking about it so.
[5:02] I guess what was your sister was still in danger of having the hemorrhage and then she was not attended to either through mistake or the nurse getting a coffee. She was not attended to when she was supposed to be attended to and I suppose the hemorrhage happened and she didn't get the treatment or whatever they needed to do in time. Is it something like that?
[5:23] Yeah, I think so. As far as I know, the result was that now she's got a valve that connects her brain and her heart. and like she needs that to leave and yeah she's in a wheelchair gosh.
[5:39] That's uh that's just terrible and it just you know these these kinds of mistakes and and the lifelong consequences uh it's just it's just appalling you know people don't know just i mean a lot of people don't know just how dangerous it is to be around health care professionals yeah like medical error is like one of the leading causes of death and uh it's it's just horrendous i don't exactly know the cause and i don't i think it's getting worse for obvious reasons but that's terrible i'm so sorry yeah.
[6:11] Like the thing is like for me like it didn't really matter like i just saw my sister growing up you know as herself and i i i remember like i i spent like tons and tons of hours just playing with her, and it was amazing.
[6:27] Sorry, what do you mean it didn't matter?
[6:30] As in, like, I learned to do things differently because of her being in a wheelchair, but it was cool in a way because we had to, like, be a bit more creative at times.
[6:48] So it didn't, tell me, I'm sorry, I'm still trying to understand what you mean when you say it didn't matter. I mean, it was pretty sad, right? Like, you understand my, I'm a little surprised. It's nothing negative, right? Nothing negative at all. I'm just, you're heartbroken that your brother is moving away or has moved away, but it didn't matter that your twin sister is paralyzed?
[7:22] Like, now that you say it, it does sound a bit strange, but that's how I thought about it for most of my life.
[7:30] But it's miserable for her in some ways, right? I mean, she doesn't get to have a normal life. She doesn't get to dance. She doesn't get to play sports. It's going to be tough for her to date. I mean, there's a huge number of negatives. I'm sorry. I'm simply surprised, not because there's anything wrong with what you said. I'm just trying to mesh it with what the content of your email is regarding heartbreak and siblings.
[7:56] Okay.
[7:58] I don't... I don't feel that, yeah, that heartbreak thinking about her most of the time. I rarely feel.
[8:06] Well, how's her, how is her life now? And do you just roughly, I mean, are you in your twenties or thirties or?
[8:13] Well, I'm closing in to 30 now.
[8:15] Pushing 30. All right. So you're pushing 30. And so your sister is also pushing 30. Yeah. And how's her life?
[8:23] Well, as far as I know, she like lives with my parents. She got a degree. she's not working because nobody wants to hire her. I don't think she's ever dated. I don't think she's happy. She does do like a sport like a wheelchair soccer that she likes.
[8:49] So she's got no job. She's got no future. She lives with your parents and she's never dated.
[8:54] Yeah.
[8:57] And how do you feel about that.
[9:00] I feel pretty disconnected with everything.
[9:03] Okay right so I mean that's, I said I mean that's interesting right I mean it's an interesting dichotomy right but you're heartbroken about your brother who's having a successful life and you don't feel any particular sadness regarding your sister whose life is not successful and has no particular opportunity of becoming successful, right? I mean, can she have children?
[9:30] I don't know.
[9:31] Oh, you don't even know? Don't know if she can have children?
[9:34] I think so, but I don't know.
[9:37] But I mean, if no one's going to date her, then, right?
[9:39] Yeah, yeah.
[9:42] Okay.
[9:43] I've grown up with the fear that they were going to raise me to take care of her. So I think that's a bit where the disconnect comes from. I worry that...
[9:57] Oh, if you care about her, then you're going to end up having to take care of her?
[10:01] Yeah. Because it actually happened for a while.
[10:07] Go on.
[10:08] And like that that same year that i like left my parents i was actually living with my sister you know like um a flat that was government paid for like for the most part precisely for like disabled people to live with like people that would help them and i just signed up with her, to leave my parents and um and the like unwritten deal was that they pay the rent And I would take care of her. And I had to fight to get time off, to not go back, because I was studying at the time. So to not go back and cook her dinner and lunch every day. And to not shower her every day and stuff like that.
[11:01] Oh, right. So she has trouble cooking for herself and bathing herself, right?
[11:05] Yeah, yeah. So it was a fight with both my parents, mostly my mom, and they finally accepted to come by sometimes and get external help, like hired help. But yeah, they expected me to fully take care of her. And I was scared because I didn't know. You know, like, I picture if I said openly no, that, like, my sister would feel really, really hurt. Because she would, like, often talk to me and, like, say, oh, like, we're going to be, like, together forever, you and me. And that would, like, scare me a lot.
[11:49] Oh, so your sister thought that you would take care of her?
[11:53] I think so. Like, she never said it, like, openly.
[11:57] Well, if she said you guys are going to be together forever, that would be somewhat of an indication, right?
[12:03] Yeah, I used to picture my future with my house, my husband, my kids, and then a room for her.
[12:17] Yeah. No, it's a very sad situation. And obviously, it's unfixable. So, yeah, I mean, my sympathies to the whole family, for sure. Sure. So what happened in 2020? You said you separated from your family, which again, I'm obviously sorry to hear about, but was there something in particular that happened? Was it an accumulation? Or if you want to go further back, I mean, probably the backstory is more important regarding that with what happened, what else happened in your childhood?
[12:47] It um well i i have like the general sense without like not a lot of particular memories that i like my sister was put before me a lot of the time and um, i i assume that from that i get like the feeling of abandonment that comes so um often to me, like so how did that.
[13:18] Manifest like how if there's a documentary footage right like what would what would it look like.
[13:24] For your like.
[13:26] Your childhood and the uh putting putting your sister first.
[13:29] Like for example like there's this um at night time they would we would share a room me and my sister and she would always get like the last kiss or the last tuck in or she'd get like a stronger kiss and that would be like the case with my parents and my grandma. And even if like I was sad and I would cry for my mom, she like wouldn't come. But she woke up every night for my sister.
[14:04] What do you mean she woke up every night for your sister? What does that mean?
[14:08] Well, my sister wasn't strong enough to move on the bed. If she wanted to shift.
[14:18] Oh, she would ring a bell or contact your mother or something. Your mother would come and move her in the bed?
[14:24] Yeah.
[14:25] Right. And listen, I understand that's very tough, but honestly, it's way tougher for your sister, right?
[14:31] Yeah.
[14:32] I mean, one of the ways that we can deal with envy or a feeling of being shortchanged is to say, well, would I want to be that person?
[14:41] Right.
[14:41] Like, I mean, would you want to have your sister's disability if it meant getting more attention from your parents?
[14:48] No. Okay.
[14:50] So then you still won out, right? Yeah. You're still doing, and I'm not saying that it's not painful to see more attention going to your sister, but, you know, it's kind of like if you're in a bus that crashes and you have a gash on your arm and somebody's holding their own intestines and you say, well, I feel ignored by the medics. It's like, well, but I'd rather have a cut on my arm than be holding my own intestines because of some horrible abdominal wound. So you're still better off, if that makes sense.
[15:25] Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
[15:26] Okay. And what else was going on in your childhood? Okay.
[15:33] Well um um there was this one time where like we had a cat and well we had various cats and there this one got sick and uh i remember like to the point where she would pee herself and stuff so i remember i like decided to shower her and she got like really um agitated from it And I thought I was, you know, I was giving her like the final blow and I was killing her. And I was crying with the cat in front of me. And my mom looked at me and just said that, like, I have to be strong for my sister.
[16:16] Sorry, you were bathing a cat? The cat got a cut?
[16:19] No, the cat had leukemia. Had leukemia? Yeah, she was dying.
[16:24] Oh, my gosh. This is like the house of doom. Okay. Holy crap.
[16:30] Yeah. I literally thought that I had killed her, you know, like she couldn't handle the stress of the shower.
[16:38] Yeah.
[16:39] And I was just crying there and my mom told me just to be strong for my sister. So like just not cry. And whenever I cried, like my parents thought that I was trying to manipulate them.
[16:56] Right.
[16:58] And I don't know why, but that's like never stopped me from crying. And I just like, I have like easy tears. And it's hard because sometimes I like, I'm thankful that I can like express them, but it's also like, it feels very lonely. And I don't know why. Like, it's just so hard to accept when I'm sad.
[17:27] Yeah, you know, I mean, these kinds of situations, it's very tough for families. We've certainly not evolved to deal with this stuff.
[17:35] Right?
[17:35] I mean, if your sister, like, I don't know, even a couple of hundred years ago, even probably 200 years ago, your sister would have just died. and we have the same thing happens with soldiers right i mean one of the things that's tough about modern warfare is the battlefield medicine has gotten so good that people who absolutely would not have survived even 20 years ago now survive you know with like missing limbs and and like all kinds of crazy stuff and so we have this technology to to keep people alive that in the In the past, I mean, just wouldn't have made it.
[18:18] And that is something we're really not evolved to deal with or to handle. And so, everybody's just kind of inventing the wheel, so to speak, as it goes forward, because there's no precedent for it in our evolution for people who are that unwell to make it, to survive. vibe so yeah i i sympathize with everyone involved it's it's it's unprecedented in our.
[18:47] Species to to have to deal with a lot of this stuff and nobody really knows how to do it and we're certainly not really evolved to uh to deal with it i certainly within like and also because if there was care to be had usually it would be had in some specialized institution right rather than at home right because there's a lot of in-home technology that can allow all of this stuff to happen right i mean even wheelchairs aren't that a relatively new obviously in terms of our overall evolution and so man there's ways of of keeping people going and functioning that is so new that we just haven't evolved with any sort of particular emotional capacity to deal with this kind of stuff and i really i sympathize with everyone involved that's a very a very tough situation of course it's the toughest most of all uh on on your sister who faces a life of i mean what does what does she do as a whole i mean does she i mean she's not working right she's not dating what's her what's her day like like.
[19:51] When when i live with her she used to um, study and she likes to play video games and listen to music and sometimes she met up with a classmate or stuff like that. I'm not sure what she does now. I know she has a dog. But I kind of like...
[20:17] I mean, it's just killing time stuff, right? I mean, the studying without any particular purpose is just kind of killing time. Video games. I mean, I think they can be helpful for some things in terms of brain. They can be helpful in strategy games. They can be helpful in training reflexes and quick decision-making and so on. But if there's no place to apply those skills, then they are just kind of killing time, right?
[20:39] Mm-hmm. yeah she like the last time like when i lived with her she she ended up shouting one night saying that like she was suicidal and she'd rather just end it all oh and how old was she then, uh this was when we were 23 24 gosh.
[21:00] And did something in particular bring that on or was it just like the hopelessness of this this kind of life that that i mean again i can deeply please sympathize with.
[21:09] I think she just didn't like her everyday life. Like she, she got into like a study program that she didn't really want, but my dad pressured her to do. And like every day was kind of like heavy for her. Like there wasn't much joy in it.
[21:34] And now she's back living with your parents, right?
[21:38] Yeah.
[21:38] Okay is there and i would assume of course that you were closer when you were younger and then when you got older and you started to get more into socializing outside the home you got a peer group you had some interest in boys and from boys that your lives began to diverge in your teens is that was that the case or was it something else.
[21:58] Uh yeah that's that's pretty much the case then like after we hit like 20 we kind of like uh joined a bit more over like not wanting to be with my parents either of us and then like every all the time at home it was me and her and we started to like go out more but my parents it was weird because they kind of like pushed me to do it once i remember they even offered me money to spend time with my sister Sure.
[22:30] Um, I mean, they're desperate, right? And I mean, the emotional pain is enormous for parents who have to deal with this kind of stuff.
[22:40] Yeah, well, like they didn't share, I just assume. Because like now that I have a baby, I can't picture what they went through.
[22:53] Sorry, you can picture?
[22:55] Like I can't picture that amount of pain.
[22:58] Right, right. You know, you have kids in order to launch them out into the world and have them have their own lives. And it doesn't look like that's really going to happen for your sister much, right?
[23:07] Yeah. Right. I do feel, like, judgmental of them at the same time, though, when I have, like, a lot of anger.
[23:15] Yes, go on.
[23:18] Because I remember my dad, like, at times, like, we were spanked as children. And I do have, like, pictures of my dad. But once he stopped spanking, he would still approach us like, you know, like, I guess the word is like menacingly. Like, you know, like with a patent race or a fist race. And he would do it a lot with. And at that time, she didn't have like a motorized wheelchair. I mean, sorry, with my sister. And at that time, she didn't have a motor wheelchair. So she would just freeze. and I can see like her face of terror, and it's like I can't that also kind of like disconnects me from feeling empathetic towards their pain and their situation and.
[24:18] Yeah i mean obviously it's it's pretty rough mentally to picture a father hitting a disabled child.
[24:27] I mean.
[24:29] You as well of course right but i mean it's even harsher in the mind to think of a father who is hitting a disabled child that's very tough.
[24:41] And how often.
[24:43] Would these uh spankings or these and was he hitting open hand or closed hand or with implements or he.
[24:49] I remember open hand like when on the on the butt i don't remember like ever him using any kind of tool or anything and.
[25:01] How often would these spankings occur.
[25:03] I don't remember i just remember like i think what was the last time that he hit me because he left a mark on my butt and my mom told him and then they were kind of like, i don't know if they were horrified or surprised but i think they stopped then because i had like a 3d print on his hand oh.
[25:26] Gosh so he hit you hard enough to leave a bruise in the shape of his hand.
[25:31] Yeah yeah that's hot like the touch of it like it was warm and i remember the bumps yeah Yeah.
[25:39] Wow. And how old were you roughly then?
[25:42] I'm not sure. I have the idea that it's three years old, but I don't really know.
[25:51] And did your mother stay home with you and your sister and brother?
[25:57] No, she was a teacher. so she should go to work until she got like an operation but by then we were already like pre-teens and sorry uh.
[26:11] Who took care of you.
[26:13] Uh like a series of nannies, like maybe like five or six different nannies huh.
[26:22] So wasn't she just taking her paycheck and handing it over to the nanny yeah.
[26:27] And it didn't make too much sense because like i don't think they liked the nannies either and i'd remember the last one yelled a lot so.
[26:38] Why do you think your mother went to work if it didn't really make much economic sense.
[26:43] Uh i'm not sure i think she She wasn't happy with us.
[26:51] Like I remember our house being like full of people, but nobody really talking.
[27:04] Do your parents enjoy each other's company.
[27:08] No actually like i know my like my brother talked to them last week for the first time in years and they're separated now.
[27:14] Oh gosh okay and they weren't so there wasn't like a golden era of parents getting along when you were younger not.
[27:21] That i recall right.
[27:22] And was silence you said you You just got this memory of silence. Was that a pretty strong characteristic?
[27:31] Yeah. I remember like when, and this is something that I discovered, like I shared with my brother because we, I didn't know that like when we heard my dad come from work, like the key sound at the door, we would just run and freeze. And it happened like after we moved out that I, like we still bolted with the sound of keys like you know kind of like got us out of whatever we were doing so.
[27:59] You felt this fear when your dad came home yeah for sure now was that because he was just this intimidating, negative upset or angry like what was it that was scary about your dad that had you run when he came home i mean you want your kids to run when you come home but to you not away right so what was Is it that hurt you running away?
[28:22] I think he'd yell a lot. And he'd ask uncomfortable questions. Like, maybe it was just, oh, like, what did you learn at school today? And, you know, it doesn't sound like too bad, but he was never satisfied with the answer.
[28:40] Yeah. So if you've just been goofing around and he comes home and says, what have you been doing? You've got to make up, you know, I've been solving quadratic equations.
[28:47] And splitting the atom.
[28:48] Like to satisfy him right.
[28:50] Yeah right.
[28:54] Yes all these perfectionists who demand a gain of knowledge in their children never seem to study parenting.
[28:59] That's like one thing i asked him like because he said after you know like when we were already adults like that like he doesn't think he's done the best job and like i would ask him, like, did you look, you know, for solutions, answers? And his response was to yell at me that he's not a monster.
[29:24] Oh, so he said, I didn't do the best job. And I also demanded my children learn things every day. But I never bothered looking into parenting. And when you ask him, did you look into parenting? He yells at you that he's not a monster. That's not exactly opposing the idea that he's a monster.
[29:41] Yeah.
[29:43] Okay. And your mother?
[29:49] Um, well, my mom, she got sick when I was like around 10, had an operation and like she was, um, she's got like permanent consequences because of it. It affects, I don't know, maybe she wants details, but.
[30:08] I do, I do want details if that's right.
[30:11] It affected like her colon and she had to, had a portion taken out. Uh-huh.
[30:16] Now.
[30:17] She wears like a bag on her tummy.
[30:19] Oh a colostomy bag right there.
[30:22] We go yeah.
[30:23] Yeah i remember uh i was at a gym when i was younger and there was a guy who would shower with a colostomy bag and i just remember obviously having sympathy and also having admiration for you know he's not staying home he's going to the gym like good for him right but yeah it's it's tough for sure yeah.
[30:40] Like she quit teaching because of that like she could have gone back but she didn't want to. When I asked her about it, she said she didn't want to go to the school bathroom to get cleaned up. She didn't think it was... She just didn't like it. And she had the other... I remember being afraid that she would die in the operation and I would write to her letters, asking, because I don't know why they didn't take me to the hospital to see her, but I remember she stayed there for like a long time.
[31:15] And do you know what the issue was with her intestines or her colon?
[31:21] No, no, I don't really know. I would assume it's like stress related, but I don't know.
[31:28] Like, so you don't know if it's like Crohn's or something else or was it cancer or?
[31:35] No, no idea. I don't know.
[31:37] That's interesting. Okay. I mean, I can understand not wanting to frighten your children when you're young, but I don't know. It's important to know what your parents' medical issues are, right? Because a lot of them are genetic.
[31:50] Yeah. Like, I would ask her, but she would be, like, very generic or just not really want to talk about it.
[32:00] And what makes you think it was stress? I mean, was she very susceptible to stress at that time?
[32:06] Yeah, like I remember her yelling a lot as well, and they were this really high-pitched tone.
[32:15] Like a screeching kind of, oh yeah, that stuff is like nails on the blackboard, right? Yeah, just real screechy. Yeah, yeah.
[32:22] And, yeah, like this general feeling that she wasn't happy. I also don't think she slept really good between, like, waking up with my sister and just, I guess, she drank, like, plenty of beer as well. So, I think she slept really good.
[32:42] Yeah, and that certainly can weigh you down over time, for sure. For sure.
[32:45] Yeah. They both looked, like, really tired when they were, like, decently young, you know? don't know elderly people for sure it.
[32:53] Sounds like i mean i obviously don't want to tell you your experience but it it seems like a very sort of joyless serious negative slightly dangerous or maybe not so slightly dangerous household.
[33:06] Yeah like right now like i i would like some answers such but like I don't see the the um advantages of like reaching out and talking to them I think part of me is like still really afraid of them, well what was the.
[33:26] Sorry what was do you do you have memories of fun and silliness and goofiness and joy in in your household growing up.
[33:36] Oh I remember the some birthday parties like for For some reason, they really liked making them big. Well, that's a status thing.
[33:46] Right? Like then the neighbor's kids are coming over and they want to look good. I assume. I could be wrong.
[33:52] Maybe. Just like they would like think about fun games and like play dress up and, you know, like encourage us to make like fun invitations and stuff like that. And that was fun. We also had like fun toys like that I would play with my sister.
[34:07] No, no. I mean, with your parents. I mean, did your parents have, I mean, did they have any joy or take pleasure in your company or seek you out or enjoy conversations or interactions? Was there any lightness or joy in the household that you remember? No.
[34:27] Not that I recall.
[34:31] Dour, yes. It's like some Ibsen play. Yeah, okay. And did that change at all? Did the mood lighten when you got older?
[34:42] No, it got way worse. Oh, it got worse?
[34:45] Oh, gosh.
[34:46] Yeah, I remember when I started going to a different school and getting the bus, I would just stay away as long as I could. and there was a time where i just like went away from home like at 7 a.m and didn't come back until like 10 p.m oh.
[35:07] So you're like extracurricular and friends and so on you just stay away from home as much as possible right.
[35:12] Yeah and like when i went home it was like getting food ready for the the next day walking my dog and sleep right.
[35:19] Right and how how long did that go on for.
[35:24] I'd say uh around four years or so and.
[35:30] From what ages uh.
[35:32] Well i started uh around i'm saying at 16 is when i started going to a school further away and I would start like going out on weekends and I would ask my mom to like sleep out, but she would say no all the time. So then I just stopped asking her and I would stay away weekends by the time I was like, yeah, 16, 17 without telling them where I was.
[36:00] So you've gone all weekend and they don't know really where you are.
[36:04] Yeah.
[36:05] Where were you?
[36:07] I was usually sleeping at a friend's after like.
[36:11] Being out sorry after what after.
[36:15] Like going out somewhere and then just staying in in the friend's house for the weekend and then i started to be sexually active so then i started going out with boys.
[36:27] Yeah i mean it's it's very dangerous obviously you know that right i mean very dangerous doesn't mean that bad things happen but if you're away from home and don't want to be home Home is safe and so on. And there's nothing wrong, of course, with going out as a teenager. But if you're compelled to stay away, you are going to put yourself in significant risk as a whole. Did anything bad happen over the time that you were gone or did you manage to luck out?
[36:57] No, like nothing super bad. I ended up sleeping around. And, but like nothing, nothing abusive beyond that. I remember like I had one night that was like a blackout and that's where like I, I learned how much to drink, if that makes sense. I have to like not have that ever again. But like they, they didn't care. Like, um, my mom picked me up from my friend's house and, and I was, I don't remember this, but she told me like I was counting the months. I was going to be grounded while I was getting into the car. And she drove me home. And when I heard that, I just got straight. And I looked better. And I walked up to my bedroom. And she told me that laughing. And I was like, I literally have no memory of this. I don't know.
[38:02] And how many boys do you think you slept with over this four-year, 16, I guess, 16 to 20 time period.
[38:08] Well, I've counted it and it's like, I felt a bit embarrassed, but it's like, it's 14 boys and then a girl.
[38:21] Oh, okay. Okay. And were any of these longer term relationships or are they mostly one night stands?
[38:28] I had about maybe four or five long term.
[38:34] And what was the longest?
[38:37] The longest was the last, which was an au pair relationship for three years.
[38:44] And what ages were you there?
[38:46] I was already in college from 22, 23. Okay.
[38:54] And can you tell me a little bit about, where do you, sorry, where do you think the, where do you think the promiscuity came from?
[39:04] I think I, I thought that was how I would know, like, somebody loved me.
[39:17] Right. I mean, you would experiment with that, and then I would assume that you didn't get love that way, right?
[39:23] Yeah. I just kept thinking that I was doing something wrong.
[39:28] What do you mean? Oh, that if you slept with a guy better, he'd love you?
[39:33] Yeah. Okay.
[39:36] And did you get any advice on dating or sexuality or anything from your parents?
[39:43] Well, I remember two things. I don't know if I'd call them advice, but my dad asked me about a year after I had lost my virginity. if I knew what a condom was. And my mom yelled at me for having a voiceover while she was away.
[40:08] So nothing useful at all, right? So it's funny, like your mother's a teacher and your dad's very concerned about the knowledge you're getting, but they don't teach you anything about dating, sex, or boys.
[40:17] Yeah.
[40:18] Oh, it's terrible. I'm so sorry. I mean, I'm so sorry that you were, I mean, were you raced by the internet, basically?
[40:27] Yeah.
[40:29] I'm so sorry. I mean, it's absolutely awful, really, to me, that we have tens of thousands of years of social and wisdom and advice evolution, and just one generation just says, nah, forget it. We're not teaching them anything. They're just going to have to figure it out on their own. And it's like, good Lord, that'd be like wiping all of our scientific and mathematical and medical knowledge, like wiping all human knowledge and saying, eh, to hell with these kids. They can figure out how to read and write. They can invent their own language. They can invent their own numbers. We're not teaching them anything. And it's just wild to me that this complete erasure of all of this development of wisdom over the course of human evolution and history, tens of thousands of years, of hard-won knowledge. Just one generation says, screw it, we're not passing it along. They can figure it out for themselves. And, you know, like everybody who has to raise themselves, it's a pretty damn tough job, right?
[41:36] And, like, there's something that scares me more that it's like, I have a cousin that started, like, wanting to play sexual games when we were super, super young. And my parents knew, and my grandma knew, and nobody did anything.
[42:03] And I know he introduced porn to my brother for the first time.
[42:10] How old was your brother?
[42:13] Sorry?
[42:14] How old was your brother at that point?
[42:16] I think around... I don't really know, maybe, In my head, there's a number eight, but I'm not sure I could be wrong about that.
[42:26] But pretty young, right?
[42:28] Yeah, too young. Right. And he would show us very, very violent videos as well. Oh, my God. And my parents didn't do anything. They would just yell at him when he would get on top of me and do stuff that they didn't like. And I don't know what happened to him. i don't know like my parents know but it's like if i noticed that something was weird i bet they know at least something and.
[43:01] So you when you say you don't know what happened to him he just stopped getting invited over.
[43:04] No like in the sense like if something oh what happened in.
[43:08] The past okay okay.
[43:10] That he would act that way like who showed him the kind of games he played right like Like, with me.
[43:19] Yeah, I mean, obviously, I would have no doubt that that would be the result of virulent sexual abuse. Like, horrendous, horrendous stuff. And how long did that go on for?
[43:39] Like, I I think until like late teens oh so for like 10 years or.
[43:50] More this creep was around like grabbing at you and jumping on you and.
[43:55] Yeah I would see him like once a year maybe twice but it would yeah it would be like whenever I saw him, who would like seek me out. And it's just like, I'm a bit like embarrassed to admit this but at times like it made me feel special and I think it's linked with the promiscuity afterwards you know because he would play a lot with my brother and I would try to play with them, normal game and he would be like no boys with boys and girls with girls but then the other games he would play with me so I'd be like oh okay so like you know this is, how like it works well and also.
[44:49] He would know that you're unprotected right.
[44:51] Yeah that's.
[44:53] Your father and it would really be more the father's job that your father wouldn't grab him by, the hair pull him off you and take him straight to a psychologist and say please find out what's happening with this boy because it's vile.
[45:11] And he's like no like Like, I just feel so hungry with my parents, and I can't even picture, like, having a conversation with them, you know? Because it's like there's too much stuff, and, like, I don't want it to be on me to bring up.
[45:28] Well, what do you think would happen with this kind of conversation if you were to bring up the things you're talking about with me? What do you think would happen with your parents?
[45:39] I picture they're like either start yelling or just like tap out like I picture my mom just nodding and not saying anything and my dad denying it.
[46:00] So your dad would gaslight you and call you a liar if you brought this stuff up.
[46:04] Not like outright, but just kind of like, well, like, what are you talking about? Like, that makes no sense.
[46:15] Well, that's cowardly calling you a liar, right?
[46:19] Yeah.
[46:20] Like not even having the guts to say you're lying, but, oh, that's crazy. What are you talking about? Like just gaslighting and denying in a way, but without calling you a liar.
[46:31] Yeah. Yeah.
[46:36] Right and did you ever have or did you have conversations with your parents before 2020 when you split did you did you have conversations with them about anything to do with your childhood.
[46:49] Um yeah sometimes like, I I remember like trying to reach out a couple times like I I wrote them letters, because by the time i hit my teens my dad would like go slap my butt and tell me that i that i reminded him of my mom what yeah and um when i wore my first dress to like a party for school school, he said that I looked like a, prostitute waiting for fines at the bar.
[47:30] Oh, gosh.
[47:32] And I wrote to him a letter saying that that hurt me. I'm so sorry. And before leaving, I had a phone call with him. I reminded him of that, and that's one of the instances where he said that he didn't do the best job.
[47:56] Right.
[47:57] And that was it he didn't handle things properly.
[48:02] Sorry he didn't what oh he didn't handle things properly right I think that's certainly true.
[48:15] I don't know, it's fine if he wants to say that, but like that, like, that's it. Like, I.
[48:26] And did, did you mention at all about slapping your butt and saying you remind him of your mom?
[48:32] Just on the letter.
[48:35] That was in the letter?
[48:37] Yeah. Yeah.
[48:38] And did he ever address that?
[48:41] No.
[48:44] My gosh, that's monstrous.
[48:46] And like last week, when my brother talked with them, he said that like they still love us and they're still calling our numbers. But like, we don't even have those numbers anymore. more and i'm just like, like i feel so like powerless and so frustrated it's like it's like what what are they doing what do you mean like Like, why are they calling a number that doesn't work instead of, like, loving us?
[49:35] Instead of loving you?
[49:36] Yeah. Yeah.
[49:40] And what makes you think that they're capable of love? I mean, you kind of need to shake this off a little, my friend. I mean, you've got a baby, right? How old's your baby?
[49:58] Nine months.
[49:59] All right. Can you imagine in a year or two hitting that baby so hard that you leave a five-fingered imprint bruise on that baby's butt?
[50:11] No.
[50:12] You can't imagine that at all, right? Your tender, trusting, loving baby that came out of your body, whack!
[50:21] It's like, like, how would they love us when we were little?
[50:25] Sorry, say that again?
[50:30] Like, I, I probably think that they did love us when we were little, because they, whenever they're, we, like, our younger cousins, their face lights up when they want to play with them, and they, I don't know, because I don't remember, but I imagine they feel similar about us when we were little. Right. And I don't know, like, what changed.
[50:55] You mean, so, sorry, let me make sure I understand this. So your parents enjoyed playing with your younger cousins, but not with you?
[51:03] Yeah.
[51:04] Now, do you know why that? So you think it's because they loved your younger cousins, but not you, and you were doing something wrong?
[51:11] No, I just, I just, I don't know what changed.
[51:17] Sorry, you don't, I'm sorry to be dense. You don't know what changed between their affection for your younger cousins and you.
[51:26] No, like, I think they loved us when we were little.
[51:30] You mean when your father hit you so hard he left an imprint on your butt at the age of three? You think that's compatible with love? I'm sorry, I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. You think you can love a child and beat it like that?
[51:42] No.
[51:43] Then help me understand. What are you talking about?
[51:45] I don't think it's rational, but I have this belief that when we were more little than that, they did love us.
[51:54] Why would you think that? I mean, I understand why you might need to feel that as a kid, because you just got a Stockholm Syndrome bond with the abusers. But now?
[52:09] I can't picture not loving my baby.
[52:13] You can't picture not loving your baby. Yeah, but you're not your parents. Right? You're not your parents. Right? You can't picture hitting your child, your toddler, you can't picture hitting your toddler so hard that it leaves raised welts on the toddler's buttocks. but that's what your father did, so they're different, right? yeah they're cold, they're cruel, they're mean and their affection for your cousins do you know what that's all about?
[52:59] No.
[53:00] It's cruelty. It's cruelty because what it does is it says to you kids, your sister and your brother and you, it says, hey, look at that, we're perfectly capable of being kind and affectionate and sweet and playful. It's just that, you know, there's something wrong with you that we don't do it with you. I mean, come on, you must know, and I'm sure that this happened in your family, right? You must know that parents who are cruel to their children are really, really nice when other people come over, right?
[53:43] Yeah.
[53:43] That's called camouflage, and it's also part of the cruelty. It's saying, hey, we can be nice, we're just not going to do it with you.
[53:51] Yeah.
[53:53] You know, like the guy who's screaming at his wife, the doorbell rings and he's sweet as sugar, right? Hey, how's it going? What's new? Neighbor? Blah, blah, blah, right? I mean, that's common as dirt, isn't it?
[54:11] Yeah. I get that intellectually, but I don't know how to like, just like accept it and find closure.
[54:27] What do you mean by find closure?
[54:33] Kind of like let go.
[54:39] I don't know what that means either. You're going to have to use slightly less therapy speak. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry. My apologies.
[54:48] Okay. In a practical sense, It's like, I don't want my parents in my life, but now my brother was talking with them the other day, and then I start questioning myself. Is there a way I could reach out? Do I want to reach out? Do I want to see where they're at? because like part of me is like hell no like I don't want them anywhere near my baby I don't want them even to know that there's a baby okay.
[55:24] So the difference of the many differences between my approach and other people's approach is I am a moralist right okay, are your parents as a whole immoral.
[55:47] Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm.
[55:52] Were the things that they did that were evil?
[55:56] Yes. Yeah.
[55:58] I mean, yes. Assaulting a baby, assaulting a toddler is evil. Inviting over a kid who's half molesting your daughter is evil. And, you know, obviously not doing anything to protect the daughter. And inviting a creep over who's showing your children violent videos and pornography to your eight-year-old son. and not monitoring, protecting, is evil.
[56:25] Right?
[56:27] Slapping your daughter's butt and saying when she's a teenager is evil.
[56:32] It's a violation of personal space and an abuse of power and deeply creepy. I mean, he wouldn't do that to some woman on the street, would he?
[56:46] I don't think so.
[56:48] No. No. Being super nice to people during birthday parties or when other people come over or to your cousins is deeply immoral because it is part of gaslighting your children. So are you hoping that unrepentant, immoral people will wake up tomorrow with a conscience and virtue and the light of goodness in their heart?
[57:26] Like, no. But I just, like, I just, I don't want them in my life. But then, like, if my brother starts talking with them, and, like, chooses to talk with them without, like, talking.
[57:41] But your brother can only talk to your parents by lying to your parents. Because your parents will only accept conversations that are full of lies. Because when you try telling the truth to your parents, what happened?
[58:07] Like, they just yell.
[58:09] Well, your mother fades out, your father escalates, right? Gaslights. And if you persist, he blows up, right?
[58:16] Mm-hmm.
[58:17] So the price of having any contact with your parents is to lie, to falsify.
[58:25] Well...
[58:25] To pretend that things are true that are false, and to pretend that things are false that are true. And to pretend that evil things never happened. and evil was never done, and there are no perpetrators. So that's not a relationship.
[58:44] That's just self-erasure.
[58:46] Yeah.
[58:49] So I'm trying to sort of fathom. Is your theory that your parents were moral, when you couldn't remember anything they did, but the moment you started remembering what they did, they just became immoral?
[59:05] Sounds ridiculous, but yes.
[59:07] No, no, that's your theory, though, right? And I'm not trying to ridicule you. I'm trying to be clear. Your theory is, well, everything I can't remember is moral, and everything I can remember is immoral, or a lot of it. So my theory is, clearly, that they were deeply moral before I can remember things, and then immoral when I can remember things. Are you kidding? What are you thinking? Seriously? Well, it certainly is true that my father was a bank robber from the moment I can remember. But I'm sure that before I can remember, he was a wonderful, charitable, virtuous guy who wouldn't hurt a fly and never stole a thing. What? what i feel like i'm one of those cartoon characters with a giant lump in his head and birds circling around his eyeballs.
[1:00:15] Hey i'm i'm happy to hear the theory i really am because that would be fascinating, that you like like adam and eve and like you just made him bad he was great and then the moment you started being able to remember things, you had this magical power to strip him of empathy and replace his heart with a block of angry ice. What amazing powers you had by developing a memory. You made your father and mother bad people. Wow! Please don't do that on me. I'm begging you. Please don't use your witchy powers to make me bad. You're like this child god of corruption. Your memory makes people bad. i just don't want you to later back like when you think back on this conversation, then you'll be remembering it and that will turn me into a bad person like suddenly i'll be i'll be out there uh strangling hobos or whatever right so yeah i just wanted to you know please don't remember this convo because it'll make me a bad person okay deal deal good because that's That's your theory, right?
[1:01:33] Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't quite make sense.
[1:01:40] So. Now, listen, I mean, all joking aside, of course, I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I completely and totally understand that that's a survival mechanism, right? Because if you're beaten black and blue by your father when you're three years old, you're beaten black and blue by your father when you're three years old, well, honey, you've got another decade and a half to go, which is basically eternity for a child, right?
[1:02:16] Yeah.
[1:02:19] So you have to, in order to retain any capacity to survive mentally and maybe even physically, you have to pretend that your father has secret goodness in there, and if you just find the right key, you can unlock that golden heart and be loved. It's your fault. He treats you badly, and you just need to find a way to do what he wants and do what he says and unlock his golden heart so that he'll love you. And then you set about, for the next 26 years, trying to do that, right?
[1:02:56] Mm-hmm.
[1:02:58] That's a survival mechanism, right?
[1:03:01] Yeah.
[1:03:02] And totally understandable. And I'm very, very, very glad that you had the wisdom to do that. Like, great job. Seriously, great freaking job. Good for you. Well done. Well done. Great. Right?
[1:03:23] I don't know how to like, like feel lovable you.
[1:03:30] Don't know how to feel lovable yeah like no no no so so the way that you feel lovable and i mean this with all respect for your survival strategies which i'm very glad you did and you're very wise to pursue you. In order to feel lovable, you just have to do one thing and one thing only, and that's stop lying. Stop lying. And again, I say this not like you're some big liar. That was a necessary lie to survive.
[1:04:05] That was a necessary lie in order to survive, but the longer you keep believing it, the harder it is to feel loved. because if you feel like well gosh my father and mother they're just they're capable of deep wonderful empathetic compassionate virtuous love i just couldn't they they were so impatient with me i acted so badly i just i couldn't find a way to behave in a way that would unlock the doors to their heart. I've failed. I'm unlovable. These people who are so wonderfully capable of love, just couldn't love me because I'm bad, right? I'm difficult. I'm selfish. I don't please people. These giant glowing hearts of goodness and love and wonder and beauty and truth and virtue. you i was like this black hole sucking up all their star stuff into a giant void of selfishness and resentment and distance and it's my fault right all this drama of lies.
[1:05:21] They can't love because they beat toddlers black and blue, They can't love, because they chose evil. Beating a toddler black and blue, to just take one of many examples, failing to protect your children, failing to develop their heart, failing to love them, failing to give them useful instructions and virtue, tossing them out into a sea of teenage penises to try and find some way to float, failing to driving your teenage daughter out of the home to God knows where with God knows what. That's deeply immoral. It's vicious, it's cold, it's cruel, it's dangerous, it's dysfunctional.
[1:06:12] It's monstrous, in my opinion.
[1:06:19] They weren't close to love but just happened to miss with you you weren't responsible for the ashen deserts of your parents' hearts, that was long before you were born and it's long after you left it's the same that's a fact, that's a fact It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. You did what you did, and you swallowed the big lie in order to survive. Because if you had stood up as a child and said to your father, Dad, got to tell you, man, got to be straight with you.
[1:07:07] There's something seriously wrong with you. Like, you beat a toddler. You yell at us. We're terrified of you. Whenever you come home, we flee. I desperately don't want to be home. You have this weird acidic block of ice where your heart should be. There's something fundamentally wrong with you. And I don't know what you need. Go find Jesus. Go find a therapist. Go to anger management. Go deal with your childhood. But you're a cold, mean, cruel, angry person. I don't like you. and I also don't like that you've tried to get me to believe that there's something wrong with me. That's really the cruelest thing of all. That a deficiency of love and virtue on your part, you are trying to jam down my throat as a deficiency in me. That you as the parent are trying to make me as the child feel faulty for your own sick corruption. Now, if you'd have said something like that to your father.
[1:08:14] What would have happened? He probably would have kicked me out of the house.
[1:08:23] Yes. I mean, incredibly dangerous things would have happened because when you ally with a bad person's bad conscience, they react with extraordinary levels of violence or rejection or both. so you can't say that, and I'm glad you didn't. So what did you have to say instead? You had to say, Oh, Father, I'm so very sorry that I'm deficient in bringing the love forward that you possess within your heart. I'm so sorry that I'm acting in a way that makes it very hard for you to love me. I will try to do better. I will take it all on myself. Father, you are wonderful. I am the problem, and I will work my very, very best to bring out the love that is embedded deep within your heart like a supernova just waiting for the right pin to be pulled out. I will take on all the problems. It's entirely me, though I am, in fact, only, say, three. It's all me. I'm the problem in this relationship. You're the parent. I'm the toddler. It's all me. So, Dad, I'm so sorry that I fail you every day.
[1:09:37] I'm so sorry that I disappoint you every day. I'm so sorry that it's not that you have problems loving people. It's that you are wonderful at loving people. I'm just unlovable. And it is the case that it's true for all of your children. It's a weird coincidence that you, as the father, who has this wonderful capacity to love, has just mysteriously given birth to three children who flee when you come home. It's just bad luck. Bad luck, I understand. But it is, of course, it's myself, it's my sister, it's my brother. We are the ones who are at fault. You are a perfect, wonderful angel of virtue, and we are the devils running around in your feet, constantly stubbing our toes on our own immorality and forcing you, I dare say, forcing you away from love. the love that you have, that you possess, that you wish desperately to give to your children, but we're just such arrogant little shits that you can't love us, and I'm really sorry about that. Obviously, it has nothing to do with your parenting. It has nothing to do with your coldness or your cruelty. It has nothing to do with the fact that mom preferred hanging out in a classroom than spending time with her own children. It's nothing to do with the fact that we had five nannies, some of whom yelled at us constantly all day.
[1:10:50] It's nothing to do with any choices you've ever made. It's nothing to do with the fact that you You never studied the goddamn thing about parenting, which is the one job you're supposed to do and supposed to learn about. It's not because you are violent. It's not because you failed to protect us and brought predators, sexual predators into the house who worked their very hardest to corrupt your children. And Lord knows what happened to my brother when he was exposed to pornography at the age of eight. It's nothing to do with anything you've done. You are a golden angel of perfect virtue and your children are just rancid little scabby devils rolling around in your feet and you're desperately trying to love us. but we just, all three of us coincidentally, have just become bad or are bad or were born bad and we're just bad and you're perfect and it's all us.
[1:11:33] Right? That's what you have to say, isn't it?
[1:11:36] Yeah.
[1:11:37] Okay, here's a little hint. You ready?
[1:11:41] Yeah.
[1:11:42] Stop saying it. He's almost a half decade in the past. You're free, you're out. Stop pacing around a six by nine cell when you're almost a half decade out. Stop saying it. It's got no power over you. you're an adult, he's in the rear view. What's he got? Can he beat you anymore? Nope. He beats you, you call the cops, he goes to jail.
[1:12:13] But I'm afraid he's going to find out where I live and come. Because he followed me once, trying to find out where I live.
[1:12:24] Okay. So, he hasn't, right?
[1:12:28] No.
[1:12:29] It's been over four years, right?
[1:12:32] Yeah.
[1:12:33] Okay, so he hasn't, and I'm not trying to make you alarmed, but rather give you comfort. If he really wanted to find you, what would he do?
[1:12:47] Do it? Actually find me?
[1:12:53] Well, he would just hire a private investigator, and he'd have your name in a day. I mean, there are people who are experts, and I'm not saying this to make you alarmed, but rather to give you comfort. He hasn't done that. So he's not going to. And of course, you have the ultimate way to keep him away from you, which is to have a continued commitment to tell the truth. With the one exception of someone telling me my father died, my family hasn't contacted me in close to 25 years. Why? Because they know that if they contact me, what am I going to say? What am I going to speak? the truth yes it's magic they don't contact me because some tell the truth.
[1:13:48] It sounds too easy.
[1:13:52] You are in danger not because of your father or your mother but because of the lies that you're still telling yourself without necessity about your mother and your father. It's not true. It was just a survival mechanism. Like, honestly, if a bear's chasing me through the woods and I have to run for 20 minutes to get to safety, is my story to myself, well, I guess I just got startled by a little bird and ran for nothing. I guess I'm just a coward. No, I'd be like, well, there was a bear, so I had to run. And there was danger, so you had to lie. Sure. Sure. But you're taking this moral responsibility for the lies you were forced to tell. You're taking moral responsibility for that, like that's a choice you made or something real. It's just, I mean, it's just a necessary survival strategy, right?
[1:15:07] Mm-hmm.
[1:15:10] You know, if some criminal grabs some woman, and they demand to have some piece of information, and she knows the cops are coming, she doesn't give them that information. Where's your husband? We want to kill him. I don't know. She knows exactly where he is, but she says, I don't know. Why? Because she's under threat, right? Right? Now, if later she were to say to herself, well, I really didn't know, then she'd be continuing the lie beyond the threat. Right? Or if she said to herself, well, I guess I'm just a liar. I lied to those poor criminals when I really should have the virtue of telling the truth. We're like, there's no virtue here. There's no morals here. There's survival. I mean, you wouldn't call a woman a liar if somebody with a gun to her head asked where her husband was and she said, I don't know, when she did, would you call her a liar?
[1:16:14] No.
[1:16:18] So you had to lie and take on the burden of your father's dysfunction. Sure, of course. And, and, I assume your father's intelligent and perceptive, so you had to really, really believe that lie. I mean, if you'd have said, yeah, yeah, Dad, I'm the bad one, you're the good one, I'm wrong, and you're right, you're always right, and your kids are always wrong. Yeah, I get that, Dad, I'm just so terrible and unlovable, and you're such a wonderful guy, so capable of love, it's just that your children are always doing things wrong, and that's why you can't love them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? You're repeating the lie. Would you get punished?
[1:17:01] Sorry, I dozed off, like, for a moment.
[1:17:04] I'm sorry?
[1:17:05] I didn't hear the last bit, sorry.
[1:17:07] Well, if you were to repeat in a sarcastic tone the lie, oh, dad, you're just so wonderful and perfect, and your children are just so bad, you just can't love them, and it's all our fault, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? If you were to say that, right, would your father be angry?
[1:17:26] Of course.
[1:17:27] In that tone?
[1:17:30] Yeah I can like see his face.
[1:17:33] Yeah he would be like how dare you blah blah blah right he'd be angry because you would be repeating the lie but not in a way that he would accept so you have to inhabit and believe the lie, you have to be like the Marlon Brando or the Meryl Streep of lying.
[1:17:54] I'm afraid that I'll believe, like, facing that, um, like, alone, and, like, I have, I have my fiancé, it's hard to do thinking about my brother if I were to be that way and he would just leave.
[1:18:32] Sorry we get you to the heart of the matter and you're jumping topics are we talking about your fiance or your brother what are you doing Why are you misdirecting? Why are you fogging? Why are you gaslighting me a little bit? You know, if you're going to be a con man or a con woman, you have to go all in. You can't wink, wink, pretend, pretend. You have to go all in and be completely believable in order to con people, right?
[1:19:12] Mm-hmm.
[1:19:12] And in order to con yourself, which is necessary for survival with a violent and aggressive father and dangerous father, you have to gaslight yourself.
[1:19:36] When I went to boarding school at the age of six, I gaslit myself because the boarding school people didn't care about me so I had to gaslight myself and be real sentimental about my loving mother, of course I mean that's the natural survival mechanism it's how you retain the capacity to pair bond you create a fantasy parent rather than a real parent and that's probably why you can love your child which is good it's a good thing, You know, I would lie in my bed at night at the age of six in the middle of nowhere in some violent, cold boarding school. And I would make up all these wonderful things my mother would do or had did. Sure. Now, who doesn't want you to accept the moral reality of your upbringing?
[1:20:48] Well, my parents.
[1:20:51] Right. So, as long as you deny moral reality, you serve the corrupt. Now, as a child, you had to serve the corrupt. So, again, I'm not saying anything negative about your survival strategy, except that it's no longer needed. And that which helped you is now harming you. That which served you is now enslaving you. and if you haven't talked to your parents in over four years, it doesn't make much sense to me to continue to let them dominate your moral clarity, and to feel you feel unlovable because corrupt people didn't show you affection. I mean, if I go to a place where no one speaks English, Am I stupid because they don't understand me?
[1:21:59] No. No.
[1:22:02] I'm just in a situation where people don't speak English. In the same way, are you unlovable because you're raised by people who can't feel love?
[1:22:18] No.
[1:22:19] Of course not. Now, in order to avoid their own corruption, of course they would try to convince you that it's your fault, right? Of course. That's inevitable. And you had to believe it in order to avoid punishment and ostracism as a child. Yeah, you had to believe it. And I completely applaud you for doing that. But you don't have to believe it now. I mean, your fiancé loves you, right?
[1:23:03] Yeah.
[1:23:05] And your child loves you, right?
[1:23:08] I hope so.
[1:23:10] Well, yes, or at least is bonded, right? I mean, you're treating, you're not whacking your child, you're not screaming at your child, right?
[1:23:19] Yeah.
[1:23:19] You're showing affection to your child and closeness to your child, so your child is bonded with you, right?
[1:23:28] It's so weird, like super hard to accept that they just live like that and they're, you know, for so many years.
[1:23:37] Sorry, they just what?
[1:23:39] That they just choose to live like that for so many years. And that they still do.
[1:23:46] Right.
[1:23:47] And like they still got like a decent amount to go.
[1:23:54] Sorry, say again?
[1:23:56] They still got like a decent amount of years to go, you know? They're not like mega old.
[1:24:01] Your parents?
[1:24:02] Yeah.
[1:24:03] I'm sorry, why are we talking about your parents again? My apologies.
[1:24:07] Because like at times, I doubt it and it's hard to just set my mind, if that makes sense.
[1:24:14] No, I'm not following. So we're talking about the people who love you and you are back on your parents?
[1:24:27] A little bit, yeah.
[1:24:28] A little bit? What do you mean? Why are you gaslighting me all this time? No, we started talking about your parents, right? They've still got a long way to go, and they're not too old, and right?
[1:24:39] Yeah.
[1:24:41] So, we talk about the people who love you, and then you gravitate to your parents.
[1:24:47] Mm-hmm. Why? is i i still don't like fully accept that they don't love me.
[1:24:57] Okay so make the case i'm i'm you know maybe i'm entirely wrong in my evaluation and i'm certainly uh happy to hear the case, so what is the case that That they could love you, but they don't.
[1:25:21] Because, like, I'm not saying it's, like, fully rational, but it's, like, they themselves, like, are hurt. And, like, my grandparents are also, like, awful.
[1:25:37] Right.
[1:25:38] So growing up with them, like, must have been, like, a nightmare. Mm-hmm. and maybe like they, like i i this sounds like.
[1:25:53] No make the case don't don't judge it if this is the case you believe i want to hear it maybe you'll convince me and i'll change everything that i do maybe you're right listen honestly make the case don't uh don't don't leave your actions in the lurch make the case i'd love to hear it i really genuinely i'm not being sarcastic here like Like, I'd love to hear the case. Get behind it. Make it real.
[1:26:18] Didn't get like a good example or it was like too painful to shout out for their own kids like.
[1:26:25] In the.
[1:26:25] Face of their own parents because my my grandpa like was physically abusive towards my mom.
[1:26:34] And my.
[1:26:37] Other grandpa like insulted my dad on a daily basis, and it's going up around like all that violence just has them kind of blocked from showing the love they might feel.
[1:26:56] Right it's a great case so your parents were so damaged by their parents that it's almost like blaming your sister for not dancing, how so well your sister is physically incapable of dancing because she can't control her legs right and one of her hands so we wouldn't morally blame your sister for skipping leg day right yeah right so if your parents are mentally disabled because of their bad childhoods because then asking them to have affection for you is crazy because they were so damaged that you're asking the impossible. You're asking a guy with only one arm to clap, right?
[1:27:49] Uh-huh.
[1:27:51] And it's actually cruel and unjust and mean for you to take people who are spiritually disabled and hold them to a moral standard because they're just not capable of doing that because they were so damaged as children. Like you're actually the unjust one by being mad at people. who were damaged by their parents, and therefore cannot be nice.
[1:28:11] Uh-huh.
[1:28:12] Is it something like that?
[1:28:14] Yeah.
[1:28:15] Fantastic. Listen, that's a great case. That's a great case. I mean, it's total bullshit, but it's a great case. Honestly. Like, you make a great case.
[1:28:27] All right.
[1:28:30] How do you know that your parents had bad childhoods?
[1:28:35] Oh, they've told me.
[1:28:37] Oh, they told you. And what did they say?
[1:28:42] Well, my mom says that she's been like struck in the face with the hand and a belt.
[1:28:48] Right.
[1:28:51] That my grandpa wanted her to study teaching so bad that when she chose biology, he wouldn't like buy her even undies.
[1:29:00] Okay. So she was hit and controlled and bullied, right?
[1:29:04] Yeah.
[1:29:05] And she says that that's a bad childhood, right?
[1:29:08] Yeah. Boom!
[1:29:09] We got her. No excuses. Do you know why?
[1:29:16] Why?
[1:29:17] Well, your mother says I was hit and bullied as a child. Yeah. And that's bad. You see where I'm going with this?
[1:29:28] Yeah.
[1:29:29] She knows how bad it is to be hit as a child because she doesn't characterize it as, well, that was necessary and good discipline for me, and thank God I didn't become a biologist, and thank God I didn't wander through my childhood not getting beaten on a regular basis. Thank God it made me into the tough, wonderful, great person I am. No, she says that sucked. It was abusive and it was terrible. Right?
[1:29:53] Yeah.
[1:29:56] So she knows and characterizes hitting and bullying children as immoral and dysfunctional, right? No, no, don't mm-hmm me. You're crying about all this other stuff. Don't fade on me now. okay stay with me anyway i need your spine here not your right so she knows and has expressed how terrible it was to be hit as a child and then she countenanced and hit you as a child right yeah right i mean that's just one of many cases we're going to make against this perspective right uh that's number one right number two Two, did she know how to treat children well? Are you drumming with the furniture here? I don't know what's going on in the background here.
[1:30:47] Sorry, I've got a creaky chair.
[1:30:49] Is there a non-creaky chair you can move to? It's kind of distracting.
[1:30:53] Yeah, sorry.
[1:30:54] Thank you. These interruptions never happen by accident, but all right. Right.
[1:31:05] So.
[1:31:07] Did your mother know how to be nice to children?
[1:31:11] Well, being a teacher, I'd assume so.
[1:31:14] Well, you don't have to assume so at all because of what you told me. You know for certain that she knew how to be nice to children because didn't you have great birthday parties?
[1:31:24] Yeah.
[1:31:25] Yes. Look, let's let's send out fun invitations. Let's set up great games.
[1:31:32] Right?
[1:31:33] And when the other children were over, did you get yelled at or hit or anything like that?
[1:31:38] No, no.
[1:31:39] Oh, look at that. And you also said that your parents were very nice to your younger cousins, right?
[1:31:44] Yeah.
[1:31:44] Okay. So they know how to be nice to children.
[1:31:51] Right? Yeah. Yeah.
[1:31:56] So they're responsible for not being nice to children. If I'm dropped into Japan and nobody speaks English around me, I'm not responsible for making myself clear because I don't speak their language, they don't speak mine, right? However, if it turns out that for one out of ten conversations I speak beautiful, fluent, accent-free Japanese, am I then responsible for not being understood? yeah of course so your parents knew exactly how to be nice to children and how to treat children well because they did it whenever other children came over right oh this is really annoying i gotta tell you if you're not if you don't care about this we'll move on to another topic if this is not interesting to you i'm i'm happy we can move on to your brother we can move on to your fiancee okay um let's let's do that because i this thing is just a dismissive, and if and maybe this isn't important to you in which case we can move on to another topic.
[1:33:04] I i appreciate like the point of view it's just that i don't know.
[1:33:11] Because when you had all the self-pity you were as passionate as you could be right and now we're actually doing a rigorous analysis of your deepest illusion, and you're giving me all this distant stuff. So that's fine. Listen, I'm not mad at you. I'm just saying that it's kind of annoying to be in the situation where I'm just getting this blankness back.
[1:33:36] Okay yeah i sympathize.
[1:33:37] So we'll drop that topic and we can move on to your brother if you prefer because that was your original question right yeah okay so your brother found the love of his life after introducing you to the love of your life right now we're okay so exactly if you're um yeah because i i honestly i i find it very bizarre to be in a situation where i seem to care more about your heart, mind, and soul than you do. And I can sort of feel you getting emotionally more distant as we go on with the conversation.
[1:34:13] Yeah. I'm just like, I'm out of time and my baby's going to want to eat soon and I don't know why I'm not in, actually. Sorry. Yeah.
[1:34:22] No, no, that's fine. We can reschedule for another time if you prefer. I obviously don't want to interfere with any of your parenting duties.
[1:34:28] Yeah.
[1:34:30] Would you like to do that? because I mean if you're distracted it's a tough convo to have right.
[1:34:36] Yeah it is I would like a reschedule please.
[1:34:38] Absolutely okay so uh I guess we'll work it out in Skype and listen I I sympathize with obviously it's not a distraction to take care of your baby that's the most important thing so uh we'll work it out in uh in the chat and we'll reschedule, okay all right thanks for the call appreciate it thank.
[1:34:57] You bye bye.
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