Philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages with a caller who has bravely ventured into a deeper exploration of his life story. The caller, now 43, initiates the conversation by expressing his struggles with chronic pain and finding purpose after years of health issues that have stunted his personal and professional growth. His journey of self-discovery, influenced by the works of psychologists Dr. Phil and Jordan Peterson, has led him to confront painful memories from his childhood, particularly surrounding his parents' divorce when he was just six years old.
As the conversation unfolds, the caller elucidates his formative years, highlighting a distinguished yet tumultuous path shaped by family dynamics and traumatic experiences at school. He recalls a relatively stable early childhood that dramatically shifted after the divorce, fostering feelings of abandonment particularly toward his father, who seemed to vanish from his life thereafter. The severity of isolation and fear of being teased at a private boys’ school led to a debilitating fear of mathematics, propelling him toward creative outlets like sports and writing, where he found solace and strength.
Yet, the caller's tale takes a darker turn with the onset of severe chronic pain starting on his 18th birthday—an ailment rooted in structural issues with his legs that had gone misdiagnosed for years. As he narrates the harrowing impacts of this condition on his life choices, career aspirations, and relationships, Molyneux listens attentively, interjecting with thoughtful questions to further unravel the depth of the caller's emotional turmoil and identity crisis. The pain lingered for decades and affected nearly every facet of his life, yet he remained resilient, pushing through periods of unemployment, college, and eventually attempts at career fulfillment—often while grappling with the debilitating pain.
As the episode progresses, the discussion shifts from the caller's past struggles to his present. After finally encountering a doctor who could accurately diagnose his condition, he found a glimmer of hope, leading to surgeries that reduced his pain levels significantly. Despite the newfound relief, he wrestles with questions about finding purpose and envisioning a future, grappling with a lingering confusion about his identity and life goals. Molyneux encourages him to re-examine his past, pose difficult questions about his motivations, and consider how to reclaim his aspirations and dreams amidst a narrative marked by hardship.
The conversation takes another intriguing turn as the caller discusses his relationship with a doctor who has dramatically improved his life, but whose own struggles with mental health present challenges in their dynamic. Molyneux probes into the morality of their relationship—questioning the balance between care and emotional burden, and whether it is wise to depend heavily on one another for mutual healing. The caller expresses a profound loyalty to his girlfriend, embodying the archetypal hero’s journey, yet Molyneux cautions him about the risks of entangling himself deeper into the complexities of another’s severe mental health challenges.
Throughout this compelling dialogue, Molyneux adeptly navigates the fine threads connecting past trauma, present dilemmas, and future aspirations. He emphasizes that true meaning arises from contributing positively to the world and promoting moral virtues, guiding the caller to redefine what a compelling future might entail—beyond just personal gain. As the episode concludes, the caller is left with newfound insights, poised perhaps to embark on a new chapter in his life informed not only by his struggles but also by the resilience he has cultivated through them. Molyneux’s thoughtful approach ultimately invites listeners to reflect on their own journeys, the morals that guide them, and the weight of personal responsibility in creating a compelling future.
0:08 - Setting the Scene
3:58 - Childhood Struggles
5:48 - High School Hardships
7:32 - The Onset of Pain
13:32 - Health Challenges Unveiled
19:26 - Searching for Solutions
24:09 - Family Dynamics
29:52 - The Financial Strain
36:49 - Dreams and Aspirations
40:32 - New Beginnings
45:12 - The Pandemic Shift
46:46 - Acceptance and Adaptation
59:42 - Understanding Mathematics and Self-Discovery
1:02:35 - The Diagnosis of Chronic Pain
1:10:45 - Navigating Relationships and Personal Struggles
1:12:13 - Reflecting on a Partner's Virtues
1:17:13 - The Burden of Caregiving
1:20:28 - Managing Chronic Pain and Mental Health
1:31:44 - Exploring Solutions for Depression
1:33:49 - The Role of Long-Term Therapy
[0:00] Because I couldn't make the phone call from my usual place just because I didn't want to be overheard.
[0:09] Ah, okay.
[0:09] And so I went across to the park, which is just around the corner, and it's very windy today.
[0:19] And you don't have a room of your own that you can speak from?
[0:23] Not right now. No, I don't. But I believe this is heaps better now.
[0:27] Okay. All right. so um yeah if you want to let me know what's going on i'll do my best to help.
[0:33] Yeah thanks that's my apologies to that um, Yeah, so in my brief, I mentioned that I'm 43 years old, and I've recently completed a kind of process of self-discovery, I guess. So Dr. Phil is a popular American psychologist. He has a book called Self Matters, and in that book he asks the reader to look into their past and to see patterns in their past. And Jordan Peterson has a similar procedure in his book, self-authoring.com, this self-authoring thing, which you may or may not be familiar with. So, yeah, you're looking into the past, right? And so I've gone through that process of looking at my past. And I guess I'm kind of having difficulty with finding a sense of purpose and designing a compelling future for myself.
[1:51] I've kind of had some serious health issues for 25 years. My entire adult life and only recently, about a year and a half ago, have my pain levels reduced to a level where there's more career options for me now and I'm feeling confused about, I don't know what, Like, I'm feeling confused about, I'm having difficulty creating a compelling future for myself, despite reading those books. And I don't know, I was wondering if you could help with that. I wonder if philosophy can help with that.
[2:38] Oh, we can certainly give it a try. I guess, why don't we start off prior to the health issues about what was going on in your childhood as a whole?
[2:47] Yes, thank you. That's a great question. So the good thing is I've gone through this process, so I kind of keep things a little bit more breached. So my parents would do it. So I had from zero to six, I had a good childhood. I lived in a really good house. My dad was working all the time he was a state manager for a growing business but at six years old, my parents divorced when I was six years old, and from six to twelve I enjoyed primary school that's the age at which we finished primary school I was 12 years old here, the country that I live in. So from 6 to 12, I had a good school time, but I never saw my dad. During that time, from 6 to 12, I developed a fear of mathematics, and that would come in later.
[3:58] But there was a fear of mathematics that I had. And I did everything to avoid maths, but I was really good at creative writing, I was really, really good at sport.
[4:11] Then, so from 13 to 17, I went to a private boys' school, I hardly ever saw my dad when I was a kid. And so my mum had to look after four children, I was the youngest of four children. And I had a really bad, I had a really hard time at this private boys' school. They made fun. They didn't call me by my first name, like a particular group, like the popular kids. They called me by a sexual name. And that was a bit, that teasing was really traumatic.
[4:53] What was the name?
[4:54] I was never, oh, I don't want to say it. It kind of gets me, it triggers me a bit.
[4:59] Okay.
[5:00] But it was a sexual name. And, yeah, it was a sexual name made in there. But it kind of triggered me a bit. But it kind of made me a bit more resilient. But it's kind of like there was probably some PTSD that I had because of that.
[5:16] That kind of constant teasing by a particular group of people in school. I was really, really good at sport in school. I actually was very good at basketball and high jump. And all I wanted to kind of be, well, when I was 15, and I had friends at school, so I had some good times as well, but I wasn't with the popular crowd in school.
[5:44] And I wasn't good at mathematics in high school either at this private boys' school. I did everything I could to avoid maths, right? But anyway, I was really good at sport. And I remember when I was 15, one of my friends asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? And at 15, I was like, okay, I said, I want to be in the essay, yes. You know, I wanted to be like a soldier. I wanted to be some James Bond kind of character, you know. That's where I was at with that. And... And so, you know, if I hadn't have been a soldier or anything like that, I probably would have been a tradie, you know, been a tradesperson, electrician or something like that. But unfortunately, so unfortunately, on my 18th birthday.
[6:38] Well, two things happened. One, well, what happened when I was 18 was my older siblings had all left home.
[6:49] And it was just mum and I left in a big house. And on my 18th birthday, she sold the home and we had to leave to another home on my 18th birthday. On my 17th birthday, I started to get leg pain. A year later, on my 18th birthday, on the same day we're moving home, I was in so much pain, I couldn't help mum and the people taking the furniture out. I couldn't help them. I was in so much pain, I was like, I had to stay in the living room, right?
[7:32] And so from my 18th birthday until 42 years of age, I suffered from severe chronic pain. It affected my employment, it affected my relationships, it affected everything. I was always in pain. When I was sitting down, I was in pain, constantly in pain in my legs. So the idea of me being a tradie or joining the army just wasn't physically possible for me. So he moved house from a nice old home into what I call a dog box.
[8:11] Sorry, just before we get that, I mean, but what, sorry if I missed it, what was the issue with your health?
[8:19] Well, basically, the surgeons reckon I was born. It was inevitable to have a structural problem with my legs. So my fibula, my tibia, and my patella, they weren't aligned, skeletally aligned properly, right? So it was a male alignment. It's called tibia, fibula, patella, male alignment. And so I went to various GPs and I tried to go to the gym and stuff and try to fix things from 18 to 21.
[8:59] Somehow I managed to get into university at 18. So 17, we finished our high school, you know, big high school thing. I graduated. I got like, I think I got literally graduated. I got like 50%, right? So I wasn't academically talented, not because, not at least in terms of school grades. Somehow at 18 anyway, I still got into university, right? This is like 27 years ago. I still got into university. So I went straight from like failing, and then like four months later at 18, I was getting high distinctions for all my essays, right? But I was one of the best students in that, it would have been at least 300 students. I was one of the best students, right? So I got straight into the uni, but my legs were so bad and my mum moved house so far away from the university that I quit university at 18. And I think I suffered from PTSD, probably because of my legs and also because of the way I was treated in high school. But I'm over that. I got over that mental kind of PTSD stuff.
[10:07] Sorry, I'm just trying to, sorry, my apologies. I'm still trying to understand the leg thing. So your bones are out of alignment, is that right?
[10:15] Uh, they were out of alignment, yes.
[10:18] Okay. And sorry, and that meant that what, that they were putting pressure on your nerves or something like that?
[10:28] Uh, well, it meant that, um, I had a lot of knee pain in both legs. So when I was sitting down, I was in pain. When I was walking around.
[10:36] I was in pain. I'm sorry, just, I'm just trying to fathom this. And I know it's a lot of information to get across in a short amount of time. But if you're sitting then there's no pressure on your knees so is there something that's residual pain or is it um is it something where there's a something's pressing on a nerve ending to give you pain even when there's no pressure on your legs that's.
[11:01] Right the latter yes so um my patella was, kind of drawn one way, so that was squeezing against the cartilage and gradually grinding away the cartilage.
[11:17] Oh, gosh. I'm sorry. That's horrible.
[11:19] By 21, I had hardly, not a lot of cartilage. But there's more to this that we'll get into briefly as we go on.
[11:26] I'm sorry. Again, I mean, I'm obviously sure that you guys moved heaven and earth to try and figure out what, if any, solution there was for it. But I assume, of course, that you had all the experts in the known universe that couldn't figure out any.
[11:42] Excellent question. No, Stefan, I was neglected, and you'll discover that soon. So basically, my mum was poor. Well, she thought she was poor. And so I got into unit 18. I quit because of my legs. and then I was kind of living further away from university. I tried to go to the gym. I had some bad advice, bad health advice, and the advice was to go to the gym and build up my quadriceps and all this sort of stuff. It actually made things worse.
[12:27] I couldn't really work. I couldn't work. I shouldn't have been working. So I didn't have much opportunity myself to see a doctor, and my dad was never around. And my parents and my siblings just thought it was a mental mental, I had mental issues, right? But actually, as I didn't, it was a real physical problem. At 21, I finally, I don't know how, I think I asked my grandfather or something for some money. At 21, I saw a surgeon. And despite having seen maybe a few GPs prior to that, you know, I guess they couldn't see it. But I saw a surgeon at 21. He took one look at me and said, you need knee surgery. They're not even aligned right. So at 21, I had what's called a patellofemoral realignment, which is major surgery on both legs. And after that surgery, he came in while I was recovering. The surgeon said, look, you're going to be in chronic pain for the rest of your life. At the moment, there's nothing that can be done about it.
[13:32] You're just going to have to get used to it. And that was at 21.
[13:38] Sorry, I don't understand. What was the point of the surgery if you're just going to be in chronic pain anyway?
[13:45] Well, structurally, it wasn't aligned. So it's better to align it than not align it.
[13:52] Okay.
[13:53] Because at least things, I guess the muscles will be pulling on the teller so that tracking is right. And the surgeon felt it was necessary. And I need to do something because I was in.
[14:06] No, so sorry. Was this to prevent the pain from getting worse, but it couldn't fix it? Is that right?
[14:12] Yes.
[14:12] Okay, got it.
[14:13] That's right. That's right, right? Yep. Yep. So I had that at 21. At, I'll just go back one year. At 20, I went back to uni, which was painful to get to uni. I did a year and a half of an arts degree. I got good marks. At 21, I had that surgery. So a year and a half into my university studies. At 21, I had the knee surgery. And I also quit uni again because I foolishly joined, which is a multi-level marketing business. And I was in the 15 months. I don't recommend. But I quit uni, had knee surgery, joined at the same time. 15 months later, I quit. I woke up and I quit, right? And so I was about 22 years of age and, um, I still had this chronic pain. It wasn't as bad as prior to surgery, but it was bad enough for me to, you know, I could never look at during the army. I could never be a tradesman or anything like that. Um, so yeah.
[15:33] But nonetheless, there were years of unemployment, stints of employment in sales and telephone sales. I was actually a really good telephone salesman, according to the business owner, who was one of these marketing gurus. Like, he was quite a well-known marketing guru in our country. He said, I was the best telemarketer you ever had. But, you know, that's not something I wanted to be a telemarketer. But that was a bit of a thing. I sold cars. Most of my jobs didn't last any more than a year because I was in so much pain. I didn't tell any of my employers. I didn't tell any of my employers that I had leg pain because I feared I wouldn't get a job.
[16:25] But these were jobs that had a lot of turnover anyway of employers. But still, I didn't tell them. That's just something to mention there. And at 25 or 26 years of age, I went back to university again. And I actually did a business degree. I completed that business degree. And I was in a lot of physical pain, but I still managed to finish the business degree.
[16:56] I've always looked fit and I've always kind of been strong. So the perception is that, you know, the perception may have been, oh, you know, he looks fit and strong. What's wrong with him? You know, people couldn't see it with their eyes. Like if I was walking along the street, you'd just think I was a real fit, tall guy. You wouldn't tell I was in pain all the time. I finished the business degree. I got offered a job after I finished the degree. And I didn't take it because I was just in too much pain. I was like, I'm not going to be able to do this full time at all. So then I went and did a master's degree. And I was one of the best students. And they offered me a PhD scholarship. But again, I had this kind of fear of quitting because I don't think anyone could understand how much pain I was in, but I also got offered a job at a relevant job, relevant to my degree, and instead of doing the PhD at quite a good university PhD scholarship at quite a good university I took this full-time job that was relevant to my degree, And that was when I was 29. And so I was working full-time finally at 29.
[18:22] And I even, I chose to invest in gold instead of Bitcoin. This is like, what, 15 years ago, 14 years ago? But I invested in gold instead of Bitcoin, just as a side thing. But after, again, I was in so much pain.
[18:40] And I'm sorry, is the pain level constant, getting worse? And also what medications were you able to take for it?
[18:53] I should have been taking Panadol and Eurofine, and I was. And that's really all I could take.
[19:00] And that's for the pain management?
[19:01] Because, yes. My pain management was very poor, Stefan, until later. The thing is, Stefan, is when I had this full-time job, every four years or so, I would go and see surgeons and say, has the technology improved to the point where we can fix the cartilage damage, right?
[19:27] And at 29, the technology had improved enough. So I had what's called MACI, M-A-C-I. It's cartilage replacement kind of technology. They take cartilage out, they grow it in a lab, and they grow it, and then they put it where the cartilage is missing, and it grows inside. And so I had another major surgery at the 10-month mark of having been employed, right, full-time employed in a degree-related degree. And I did tell that employer, look, I said I might have to have surgery at the interview, the job interview. I said I might have to have surgery on my legs. They're giving me a lot of trouble. And I told them that at the interview. So that was good. And so I did have major surgery on my right knee because that was where the car was damaged was. That's where the technology was most suitable to work. And I had that and...
[20:26] That reduced the pain level, again, by a bit, and I got poached to work in another job. One of my friend's friends, I became friends with him, and he poached me out of that career-orientated job into another job in the mining industry, in the offices though. It paid twice as much, and it was actually easier. And so I went to work there, but that didn't last long. It only lasted six months. There was a mining downturn, and everyone got retrenched. About 200, 300 engineers got retrenched on the day, and I was one of them.
[21:11] You mean sort of laid off?
[21:12] So that didn't last. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yep, so at 30, so it's 29. At 30, right, I've just had major knee surgery. My grandfather died, and I saw him, I kind of almost saw him die, because I was working in the city, and he was 92 years old, and he –, His hospital he was in was just down the road. This is relevant. I'll just say so. So around the same time, a few things happened. Number one, my partner left me, right? Number two, I had major knee surgery. Number three, I got retrenched.
[21:58] Your partner, is that your boyfriend or your girlfriend?
[22:03] I had a girlfriend at the time as well. and only a whole like a perfect storm kind of happened around that oh no i get that i just i did you had six months you hadn't mentioned.
[22:16] A girlfriend so uh okay so you had a girlfriend.
[22:19] Who left.
[22:19] You and this is around the time of the knee surgery and and your grandfather.
[22:24] Died at 92 right at 92 yeah um i kind of i kind of you're in a situation where we were asked i was asked well, So it was me and my auntie, and they came out and said, look, you're going to have to make a decision on whether you want your grandfather to live or not. Because if you let him live, he's going to be a vegetable. If you let him die, he will die gracefully. So we kind of, the auntie made that decision, really, but I was there. That happened. And then what happened, Stefan, was like, well, I lost my job. And I went on a road trip with my brother. And my brother's an alcoholic. My father's an alcoholic. My dad's been an alcoholic ever since he was 18.
[23:25] Sorry, just let me. back here for a second because you said at the beginning of the sale you said you had a really good childhood up until about the age of six.
[23:36] That's right, yeah. But I didn't know my dad was an alcoholic.
[23:38] Okay, can it be a good childhood if your father's an alcoholic and your parents were fighting?
[23:45] Well, they weren't fighting. I didn't know they were fighting because I was only six. But I had good memories from zero to six. I was in a big house, had a lot of fun, had older siblings, you know.
[23:56] All right.
[23:56] But I didn't know about. But it wasn't good from six to 18 because they didn't have a father.
[24:01] But why did he leave a night? I don't understand. He's got four kids, right? doesn't he has a responsibility right yeah.
[24:09] And he didn't pay child maintenance.
[24:10] So he's kind of a piece of crap right hey job i mean you can't you can't just abandon four kids and not pay any child support and so what the hell happened yeah.
[24:22] So from about eight years old onwards he never paid child of sport.
[24:26] But what happened?
[24:31] Well, in terms of what he did.
[24:35] Why did he leave and why did he not parent at all?
[24:40] Yeah, so my mum couldn't handle the coming home drunk and she wanted someone that was there.
[24:51] But she married him. He was already an alcoholic, right?
[24:56] Well, she says she didn't quite know the extent of his alcoholism, and presumably it may have got worse over time.
[25:05] Well, hang on, hang on.
[25:06] He told me he started drinking alcohol at 18.
[25:10] So your mother's story is that she didn't know how much of a drunk your dad was?
[25:18] For X amount of time, yes.
[25:21] Okay. Do you believe her?
[25:22] Eventually she would end up leaving. I do because the alcoholics that I've known, and I know my brother and my father, and I know they kind of get good at deception, you know? And also, you know, my mom had four kids. My dad did work for Tyrant. He was a good worker.
[25:44] Well, but before you get married and have four kids, shouldn't you find out how much he drinks his family history.
[25:51] Absolutely but you know they didn't and that's the way that went down so she was born she was a baby bean they're baby you know and then where and i agree with you um where i am in the world there's that there's a bit of a culture of drinking i would say um not that it's his but that's just the way it is, And my dad's dad was an alcoholic. My dad's mom was an alcoholic.
[26:18] So he knew how bad it was.
[26:19] But my dad's always been a worker. My dad, even now, like he's 75, even now he's in complete denial about being an alcoholic. But he is a complete and out of through and through an alcoholic. Right? Guaranteed. But, yeah, he's in denial, like all these alcoholics are. Right? The chronic alcoholics.
[26:38] So how much does he drink now in his 70s?
[26:45] So I asked him, I've estimated it's between $150 and $300 a week.
[26:51] Okay.
[26:53] That's about $100 to $200 a week. He drinks at the pub, most of it at the pub. He's a sociable guy. He's got his strengths. He's got some severe weaknesses. And those weaknesses, I recommend it all about his health. Well, the alcohol is one of his weaknesses. Sorry about the wind. I'm going to move out of it. Sorry about that. Bloody hell. Yeah, so at 30, right, I went on this road trip. And what happened was...
[27:24] Oh, this is with your brother who's the alcoholic. Okay.
[27:28] Yeah, yeah, right. All right. So apart from being an alcoholic, my brother is a high achiever. He's an amazing guy, he's a real outdoors person, he's travelled a lot. So at 30 I got back from this road trip, those other things were colliding, like my grandfather dying, losing my job. I was falsely accused of something that I didn't do, obviously, and that kind of got to me.
[28:13] Sorry, do you mean at work or in a dating relationship?
[28:17] In a dating relationship, I was falsely accused of something that just annoyed me. But these are the things that kind of came at this point. And my brother and I got back to my dad's home. And I should just say, Stefan, that I should just pause and say, my dad didn't pay child maintenance, right, from eight years old. But what he did do was he did give my mum a large amount of money to the point where she never had to pay a mortgage because he'd earned a lot of money. So he paid for a whole house So I did have a good house Oh From zero.
[29:04] To 18 Why would you let me sit Hang on Why would you let me sit for half an hour Thinking that your dad didn't pay anything He didn't pay any child support Turns out he gave your mother a house.
[29:16] Well, now I've told you. So he did give mum a house, but he didn't pay any child support from eight years onwards.
[29:22] Well, okay, but hang on. You know that now. How much was the house worth?
[29:31] Oh, look, it was, I'll say it's a middle of the road home. Not poor, not rich. Good middle of the road home.
[29:39] So he's saving your mom $2,000 to $2,500 a month in mortgage? Okay.
[29:53] Yeah, so he did do that. Yeah. I never saw him, and my mom needed more money. When I was in high school, I was teased because I never had a proper uniform. I was skinny. I never had any food. Well, I had food, but I was always hungry, and I was skinny. Didn't have the uniforms. I got teased. I couldn't get into the top basketball teams because I didn't have a proper uniform. So that's one of the reasons I got teased as well, being poor. But we did have a home. I did have a good home, though. And I went to a good school, although I didn't enjoy from 13 to 17, my time at school. I didn't get any good academic results. So, yeah, back to you. You feel free, obviously.
[30:36] No, no. So I've tried to get to you at 31, you lose your job, your girlfriend leaves you, you get a, hang on.
[30:41] Yes, I need to tell you.
[30:42] You got accused of something and obviously you don't have to tell me what it was, but was it, you said it was annoying. So was it a relatively minor thing that you were accused of or something more serious? Yes.
[30:56] It was serious, but I mean, it was obviously bullcrap, and they all knew it was bullcrap. So it just annoyed me that people can do that, that you have a relationship with someone. But it was my lack of, oh, I was surprised, let's say. In hindsight, maybe I couldn't really see the signs, but I didn't see the signs. Maybe there weren't any. But there was this one thing that happened, the most multifactorial thing. On the way back from this trip, my brother and I visited my dad. And my brother started assaulting my dad. And I just had knee surgery, right? Like six months prior, I just had major knee surgery. And I was feeling a lot better. My chronic pain levels had gone down. And I was starting to think about maybe during the police force or doing some sort of trade or something, right? My chronic pain levels were down. And my brother started, he drank a lot of alcohol. And my dad didn't drink the normal amount of alcohol. But my brother's like a binge drinker. Like he won't drink anything for five days. And then on the weekends, he'll drink, he'll drink like 15 liters.
[32:16] And sorry, just to understand, sort of, you know, the 1 to 10 pain scale before your surgery, what was the number and then what was it after your surgery, after you'd healed?
[32:29] From 10, so it was 10 down to 7.
[32:35] Wait, so hang on. So 10 is like maximum unbearable pain, so it went from a 10 to a 7, is that right? Okay.
[32:43] Yes.
[32:44] I'm really sorry. So you spent many, many years at a pain level of 10.
[32:50] It gets worse. But yes, I spent from 18 to 30 in incredible pain. I should have been on, obviously, I should have been in what's called the disability support pension. But I didn't get that. I just didn't have that identity to be someone that was disabled or crippled. But actually, I was. I was crippled. Absolutely crippled. I should have been on a disability support pension at 18 years of age, right? But I thought I didn't have that identity. So I just wanted to work. I just wanted to work around it. And so I had stints of unemployment benefits, had long stints of not being on unemployment benefits, had stints of working, right, in pain, laboring away, doing telephone sales as well. All these things kind of just, I try to push the pain barrier the whole time. I got used to, I'm used to being in pain. I'm used to pushing through pain. But it doesn't mean you can get results. Results that are of market value or results that are, you know, kind of align with ordinary results of someone my age. But I kept on pushing through the pain barrier. And I do that until recently, and now I'm 43. So at 30, we get back. My brother starts assaulting my dad. And I'd never seen this before, right?
[34:02] And so I was really strong. Despite having disability, despite being a – I was very strong. I was a regular gym guy. It kind of – I was always a gym kind of person, always physical, always good with my hands. So even though I had huge pain, I still went to the gym, right? Very strong, like 99 kilograms. At 30, I was probably the fittest I ever was. I did 150 chin-ups at the gym. I was like the chin-up king, the gym. Anyway, this assault starts to happen. It was just pushing stuff.
[34:36] Like, what I did was I didn't know what to do, and I started to punch this bloody tree. There was a tree out the back. And all those factors that I mentioned before, I kind of lost my, I got angry. And so I hit this tree. I hit the tree multiple times to the point where I severely damaged for the rest of my life both my hands, right? And so that was a traumatic event in terms of my hands. Of course, it stopped the fighting because I couldn't believe I was hitting this tree, but it stopped them fighting. And the diagnosis of that was incorrect. Unfortunately, I did go and get my scans done and everything, but as is typical where I live, the medical fraternity has mixed results, and they misdiagnosed the severity of my injury and it was too late for them to do surgery to realign my knuckles.
[35:44] Because the bone had already set. And so now I have a bit of pain in my hands when I type but it's nothing compared to the pain that I had in my legs. So that's what happened at 30, right? I think I got, I think I was, after that, I was just confused. Like, I felt I was free for, I wasn't free from pain. Like I said, I went down to seven, from 10 down to seven. But that's a big, that was a big difference. Enough for me to think of maybe doing, I wanted to be a pilot. I wanted to be a pilot at that point. And I'd done flying lessons in different aircraft. I didn't even have my eyes tested. and uh, I don't know if I would have passed, I don't think I would have passed the commercial doctor thing because of my legs, made my knee surgeries. I wanted to be a part, I was starting to think about, imagine again, starting to dream again of doing things that maybe I was naturally inclined to do prior to 18 at 30. But then I stuffed up my hands.
[36:50] So then I became unemployed for a while, got into fishing.
[36:58] And I got a full-time job in a degree-related job again at about 33 and I was from 33 to 35 ish. Unfortunately the business owner was corrupt so I had to leave that job.
[37:17] And my leg pain sorry there Stef.
[37:24] Yeah I got you.
[37:27] Sorry mate sorry yeah just checking so yeah so it's already had that that injury again, that's led to a chronic a bit of chronic pain but it's only one out of ten right it's only one out of ten even a half out of ten but it's there and it'll probably get worse when you get older sorry where was this chronic pain so yeah i had that sort of oh so when i after oh yeah right i do get some chronic pain okay.
[37:51] Got it got it.
[37:52] Yeah so when i injured my knuckles right Yeah, so I do get some hand pain when I type now for extended periods. I got a full-time job at about 34 to 35. It was a degree-related job. Ordinarily, that would be a good job because it's like a career-oriented job. But the business owner was corrupt. And also the pain levels in my legs started to go from a 7 to an 8. And then it started to get worse. The leg pain started to get up again, right? So that plus the disruption meant that I left that jump.
[38:30] Was it operated on the other one or both? Both. Okay.
[38:35] Okay. So, yeah, so both pain. So when I say I'm in leg pain, I mean both legs are in pain. At a certain point, my right knee was worse than my left, but I was still in pain in both legs.
[38:48] No, no, I knew that. I just wasn't sure which was getting worse or both. Okay, got it.
[38:54] Yeah, yeah. Well, they're both slightly worse. They're on fire and it's so bad that it's hard to pinpoint where the exact pain is because it's the entire leg, all down to the feet, right? So, you know, pain kind of hides itself. So when you get rid of one pain, it reveals other pain, right? I was in so much pain.
[39:11] Did I talk about it?
[39:16] No no no nothing.
[39:17] But why not no.
[39:17] It wasn't like that no, well it's not it's not about it's just another it's just not something i'll never even consider i can still walk.
[39:26] Well you could walk you could walk with that and get prosthetics i'm not i have no idea if it's the right thing or not to do i'm sure it's not i just you know if you if you could get rid of constant pain uh and you know have something above the knees and then get a prosthetic I don't know. It's just something that crossed my mind.
[39:45] But, you know, that's good that it crossed your mind because it shows that you have an open mind about this. That's a good thing. No one's ever said that to me, but that's actually a good thing. Obviously, you're a unique kind of guy. That's a good train of thought. But no, that was not an option. But it's good that you cut us out of it. Yep. So, yeah, anyway, I was 35 now. I've only got seven more years. And so, yep, so 35, I quit that job because of corruption. That was a bit of a bummer because that could have led to self-employment. Starting my own business and doing a job, albeit in pain, at least I could be employed and have some control over my financial future. But the corruption, I had to leave. And I had to leave. So I left that because I'm not going to be a part of that stuff.
[40:32] And so I left that. And then at 36...
[40:43] I got offered another job on the other side of the country, right? From zero to 36, I've been hanging around the same city. And then from 36 to – actually, 35, sorry. From 35 to 40, I lived for five years. I'm from the other side of the country. So that was a good experience. I was in pain, but at least I felt like I was on an adventure, right? And the reason that I moved was because I got offered a full-time job. And also, I'd done volunteering with the Lions Club for three years. And so I had a place to stay because through the Lions Club, they have like a network. And they said, oh, yeah, we've got someone that can look after you. Why are you there in Tassie and set yourself up? So it was easy enough for me to go to Tasmania. So, yeah, I lived in for five years.
[41:50] And but the job only lasted four months. I don't know why, but I just didn't gel with the coordinator there. And so it only lasted four months. But it was enough time, and I'd saved enough, right, that I'd put a deposit down for a house. So at about 36 years of age, I bought my first home, and that was a highlight.
[42:22] But, and also, I need to mention this, I don't know. Yeah, you there, Stefan? Sorry, mate. Yeah, I need to mention this. So about three months prior to moving to, I was looking after, I was caring for my rich granddad. I have two granddads, a poor granddad, call them poor granddad, rich granddad. My poor granddad died when I was 30, as I mentioned. My rich granddad, he had quite a few brains, but he was an alcoholic as well.
[42:55] He didn't want to leave his house and I wanted to move out of the house with my mum right, this was at 35, so he needed someone to look after him so I moved from one house into my rich granddad's house and looked after him.
[43:17] That's the story in and of itself, but in his, so I'm there looking after my granddad and I'm like you know what I'm sick and tired of being poor and having no cash flow I'm sick and tired of being poor being poor my whole life so I I I.
[43:38] I designed and manufactured, I outsourced the manufacturing, an Amazon product that I got made in the USA, despite living in Australia. I got it made in the USA, and that was three months prior. I worked there for four months. I quit my job, and this Amazon product that I made, it became one of the best-selling Amazon products in its category for about a year and a half, and that provided me with cash flow to pay the mortgage for some cash flow to pay the mortgage for my home that I made. And this business was quite – it was enough to pay my mortgage in terms of cash flow that I got from this Amazon product, but it really only lasted a couple of years, right, because it wasn't a patentable product, but China got a hold of it, And China just undercut me. And China just sold theirs so much cheaper than mine that my business kind of went from making up to $1,000 a week in profit down to, well, now zero. So I recently stopped it, you know.
[44:55] So that was a good thing. But the cash flow wasn't enough for me to keep my home. So I sold my home during COVID. I guess I was, what, 38 then, 37?
[45:12] During COVID, around the same time, so I put this home up for sale and I made like 100 grand profit from it in two years. But COVID happened and I couldn't leave to go back to COVID, Western Australia, where I'm from. And so I was stuck in. And the home settled. But luckily, I had made friends. So I ended up living in a mansion with 20 Indians and a lovely lady that kind of like I helped with her business. Instead of paying rent, she didn't have much money. I did have the Amazon business, but it wasn't making that much money then. It really only had two years of good solid income. But after two years, it kind of went down to $250 a week, you know, and then it went down gradually. To $50 a month, that kind of thing. So during COVID, for two years, I lived in a mansion with 20 Indians and an American lady, lovely American lady. And in May 2020, I started teaching myself mathematics.
[46:21] Oh, yeah, overcoming your earlier phobia, yeah.
[46:26] Yeah, mate, yeah. So what you need to know is from 30 to 30... Seven, my leg pain started to get worse again. Okay, it just got worse. I thought it was the Tasmanian weather. What is it, right? It was just worse. And all I could really do was work one day a week with my friend. I helped build her business. She had a catering business.
[46:47] And I helped her build that business up. And so instead of paying rent, I spent eight hours a week working with her and doing other things with her. And she loved that, right, because I helped around this mansion. I cleaned the mansion and I peeled potatoes and I peeled carrots and I went cooking with hair one day a week and sometimes twice a week and driving around and stuff, right? But I also taught myself, like, man, like, I'm screwed, right? This might sound pretty dumb, but I kind of, like, started to accept my disability at around 35, 36, accepting that I'll never be... I'll never be like, you know, a bricklayer. I'll never be a pilot. I'll never be able to drive. I tried Uber. Uber was so painful, but it was at least some flexibility. But, of course, I don't know what it's like in your country, but the immigrants have taken over Uber. So that's not an opportunity there. I did Uber for a little while, but, yeah, it just ended up being painful. And I think I worked out it was like $14 an hour or something after you got like depreciation. And when I say $14 an hour, I'm talking about $8 an hour US. In my country, that's about 14.
[47:53] So I lived in this mansion for two years. That was an interesting experience. May 2020, I started teaching myself mathematics. Luckily, I was humble enough to start at kindergarten level. I started off using the Khan Academy, and I started teaching myself real basic stuff like count how many whales and octopuses there are. And that became one of my main focuses. I taught myself programming, Python programming and mathematics. And I found that I just couldn't do. The programming just didn't click with me. It was just, I found it really unenjoyable. But I liked the maths. So that was in May 2020 that I started to do that. COVID ended. This mansion was up to sale. And I could move back to home on the other side of the country. So I've been back home for three years now, and I taught myself from kindergarten level to midway through year 10 maths. That's like a 15-and-a-half-year-old equivalent of maths, and I enjoy the maths.
[49:12] So now here's where it gets interesting. It's at the tail end of it now. Thanks for listening. Yeah. At 41, I met a new partner, and she's a doctor. And she was able to correctly diagnose my chronic pain. It turns out that probably from at least 25 years old and older, I had three times as much calcium in my blood as is normal. It's called hyperparathyroidism. And she put her hand on my knee and said, yeah, you know, you had surgery on your knee, on my tibia and everything, so you should be getting pain there. But why are you getting pain everywhere else, like all up and down my ITB, down to my feet along the side of my calf? Like why are you in so much pain? It doesn't make sense. You should just have localized pain that was localized with surgery. You've got pain all on your legs 24 hours a day.
[50:23] So if I hadn't met her I'd still be in pain so my pain was say an 8 out of 10, I've met her two years ago she got me surgery to have my hyperparathyroid taken out my parathyroid taken out that was just day surgery and instantly my pain went from, an 8 down to like a And it's localized now.
[50:51] Right?
[50:52] And now it's just localized, mate. Yeah, you're right onto it, man. Yeah, it's just localized now, right? Yeah, you're a smart dude, man. You really are following this. That's great. Hey, look, yeah, so now it's just localized, right? So now I'm 43. I'm 43. I've been free from major pain for a year and a half, just under a year and a half, probably for 23 months. Oh, for 22 months. For 22 months. Sorry, not 22 months. for 12 plus 3, for 15 months, Stefan, for 15 months, my pain has gone from my 8 down to 2. And it's just legalized pain. So now I'm like, well, what can I do with my life, you know? I'm 43 years of age and poor. I'm still seeing this doctor. Everyone says they shouldn't see her because she has mental health issues. But she is the best doctor. I'm obviously biased.
[51:45] Sorry, she has mental health issues for a lifetime.
[51:51] She suffers from chronic depression and OCD. She's on medication for it. But like, you know, I'm like that. An analogy would be, you know how you see those videos in Africa of like some lion that some zookeepers kind of like rescued? And you know, the lion hates everything and will eat everything. But this one zookeeper, this one zookeeper the lion will warm to, you know, it's kind of like that, mate. Like it's like she got my pain down and she has serious good strengths. She's a very decent person. She never swears. She dresses well. You know, where I live now, all the women wear gym clothes everywhere. She dresses well. She's financially independent.
[52:45] Um she she's she doesn't have to work she's she's 47 she's 47 now and i'm i'm 43 and i met her um i met her 20 months ago and uh she she healed my legs um but uh i've had quite a few i've had i've had quite a few, relationships but nothing as serious as this um my chronic pain i didn't just, the reason i got the reason i left the relationships i've had over my 43 years is because i didn't really feel like i was well there's different reasons but, i didn't really feel i was worthy of being someone's partner because i was in so much pain, I could never see my, I couldn't have kids. I didn't have the, I don't have the physical ability to look after kids.
[53:42] For me, that would be like running a marathon. That would just be a huge physical effort, right, just had kids. So I didn't have kids. I need to tell you that my leg pain was so bad when I was like 35 and had my first home. I was living in my home by myself, of course, and I wasn't having any fun. And I was making this money, and I wasn't having any fun because I didn't want to get anyone pregnant because my legs were so bad. And no one knew what was wrong with my legs, right? They just said that this is the way you're going to be the rest of your life, you know? That's what I was told by other stupid medical people, these stupid general practitioners, right? It's really important in life to have a good GP, by the way, just for your listeners, because they're not all the bloody same.
[54:28] Anyway, so one of my friends, this is going to be ironic, one of my long-term friends was a doctor back over in the other side of the country. He never diagnosed me right. He wasn't a very good doctor. He's not a GP. He just finished uni and he was doing his training and stuff, right? And so he wasn't a GP, so I couldn't expect him to have a diagnosis of me right. But just so you know like I used to talk he used to ring me up I used to ring him up every now and again and he used to ask me you know how you going you know and uh, I told him, you know, I said, I'm not having any fun. I'm making this money. I don't want to get anyone pregnant. So he suggested I get a vasectomy. So I had a vasectomy at like 36. But I keep my, fortunately, I keep my semen at an IVF place. I pay $400 a week. $400 a month, sorry.
[55:26] I pay $400 a year. $400 a year. That's about $200 US dollars. I pay that to keep my semen there. So if in the future I do find someone I fall in love with, I can have kids, right? But at the time, I was in so much pain, right, that just wasn't an option. But at least I've done that. So I still have my semen there. So now my pain levels are from eight down to two. My sister's recently had a child, and she's older than me, by the way, which is a remarkable thing because she's older and it's not very often you get someone that has a baby for you.
[56:05] Wow.
[56:06] This is their first child, yes, yes, mate, yeah. You're a smart guy, dude. You're a smart guy. Hey, yeah, so I held this baby in my arms and now I'm physically more capable of stuff defined. I'm a bit more capable, physically capable of doing stuff. So I held this kid and I originally discussed it, I'm struggling to find purpose and a compelling future. and I held this kid. And I'm like, oh, you know, like, hey, maybe I can have a kid now, you know. But my girlfriend's 47. She cannot have kids. And she's a doctor, right? So the situation I'm in now is a situation I'm in now. I'm trying to be brief. The situation is now I'm living, well, I live half the time at my mum's house still. That I live half the time at my um, Just to say some simplicity, this is my doctor's girlfriend's house.
[57:05] Right? Sorry, your doctor's girlfriend's house. You mean your girlfriend who's a doctor?
[57:09] Sorry, sorry.
[57:10] Okay, no, I was pretty sure I understood it. I just wanted to double check.
[57:15] Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, look, so that's the situation now. And I've tried different things. I've tried cybersecurity courses, programming courses. My maths, I went back to uni and did teaching. So I might not want to be a math teacher so but actually, my partner's chronic health issues I couldn't really do it so your partner's chronic health issues.
[57:48] You mentioned the mental health is there something else?
[57:53] Yeah, so she has chronic neck pain.
[57:56] Oh, so you have that in common?
[57:58] She suffers from loneliness.
[57:59] She has an experience with chronic pain. Yeah, okay.
[58:03] Oh, yeah. But, you know, one of the things she says about me, you have an incredibly strong mind, right? Probably, first of all, the pain I've been in. But so she's had chronic neck pain for two or three years. She's had chronic depression her whole life.
[58:20] I'm sorry, does she know?
[58:23] Not her whole life.
[58:25] Was she in an accident or something like that? Arthritis? I don't know. What do I know?
[58:32] She also has arthritis, but the correct neck pain is due to poor posture. I've helped her in many ways. I've lived with someone with chronic depression and OCD for 20 months now, and I know what people mean when they say they're suffering from chronic depression. This is an attitude thing. This is a chemical thing.
[58:56] Sorry, what do you mean by that chemical thing?
[58:58] Living with self-depression. Well, you know, like they just, she tries to describe it to me. You know, she's like, I just can't get out of bed today, you know. So I just motivate her. When I'm around, she feels so much better. When I'm not around, Stefan, she won't go to work or anything.
[59:17] No, no, I understand what depression is. What do you mean by a chemical thing?
[59:22] Good. What I mean is prior to me having this experience, I would have said a lot of it's attitudinal. I wouldn't have appreciated the fact that it's an attitudinal.
[59:34] Well, hang on, hang on, hang on. But you know there's not proof of chemical theory, right?
[59:43] You're pretty much right. Yeah. Well, there is a small percentage that they think are born with.
[59:49] Well, okay. You don't have to get into details. But, I mean, how was her childhood? How was her early life?
[1:00:00] Okay. Yep. So she went to 10 different schools by the time she was 17.
[1:00:08] Okay.
[1:00:11] So she grew up in Britain. She was born in the UK to Asian parents. She speaks Queen's English.
[1:00:21] I'm sorry, in England that could mean Pakistani, it could mean Indian, it could mean obviously Japanese or Chinese or Korean.
[1:00:33] Excellent question. So yeah, she has a Singaporean parent.
[1:00:37] Okay, but what's the ethnicity of the country? Is she Chinese? Chinese, okay, got it Alright And so she moved around a lot And was she Did she have Asian Tiger Mom Syndrome Or how did that go? Sorry, Asian Tiger Mom is You have to get 100%, you have to be great at the piano You have to Everything has to be Perfect, you have to be slim And, You know, excelling in everything.
[1:01:13] Well, I understand what you mean. She claims she was self-motivated to do well, and she did do very well academically. But she claims she was self-motivated. But I was saying to her, look, I remember there's something about you having to go to 10 different schools. By the time she was 15, sorry, 15, she went to 10 different schools. So she migrated from the U.K. To Australia, and she came to Australia when she was 10. Right? 10. Oh, no, 12. 12. 11 or 12 or something like that. But she stayed at the same school when she was 16 and 17. So she finally had school sterility when she was 16 and 17. She got like one of the highest marks that you can get for her year 12. I don't know what the equivalent is in Canada, but for her final year high school, she got one of the highest marks in the country. Very, very good at maths, you know. And she'd always wanted to be a doctor, and yeah, so she became a doctor. But she has been... She should probably ring you up separately, but in brief.
[1:02:35] Her mental health issues are so bad that I think that have parents and siblings have neglected her. Sorry, did you say they think she's a reject? Okay, I'll say that her siblings have neglected her, but her parents have just gotten tired of it.
[1:02:54] I mean, they can't fix it, right? I mean, has she ever been to talk therapy?
[1:03:00] She's done a lot of things.
[1:03:02] Sorry, has she ever been to talk therapy? And do you know why not? Talk therapy is very effective at helping with depression, particularly cognitive behavioral therapy.
[1:03:20] Yeah. She's done the CBT.
[1:03:24] Oh, so she has fun to talk about it.
[1:03:26] She's tried it. I didn't know talk therapy and CBT were the same thing.
[1:03:30] Do you know for how long?
[1:03:32] She's seen psychiatrists. I don't know for exactly how long, but over the years she has seen people. However, I think she's struggled to maintain the routine of doing it. One of her OCD problems that she has is, believe it or not, reading.
[1:03:50] Sorry, OCD makes reading difficult? I'm not sure what that means.
[1:03:53] Reading. Yeah. So she suffers from the correct depression, but she also has OCD. And at the moment, every now and again, she gets an OCD with reading. So reading becomes, she keeps on rereading sentences. So she can't read a book. She can't, yeah, so she can't, at the moment, she can't read a relevant book that would kind of summon talk therapy.
[1:04:21] Sorry, do you know if she wanted to have children at any point?
[1:04:28] She says to me she never felt like she was one of the half children.
[1:04:33] And how long has she suffered from this level of depression for?
[1:04:37] Yeah. Well, before I said a whole life, that's wrong. It was not a whole life. She said when she was six years old, she said to herself, I'll never be happy.
[1:04:46] Okay.
[1:04:48] But she went through medical school. She did well. And she's worked full-time. up until COVID. So she's a financially independent man. She's completely financially independent. She's not rich or anything, but she's only 47. But she could stop work now and live off dividends from shares and also her income that she gets.
[1:05:17] Yeah, but I mean, that's not going to be good for her, right?
[1:05:23] Yeah, yeah. This is where she's at now, that's all. But yeah, we've had like a, yeah. The thing is, Stef, I'm like, yeah, so like, so try different things. And I've got into law school at one of the best universities here. That starts in February. My sister's husband's a lawyer and he's done very well. And he suggested that I do law. He has like a 10-year plan. Me because i'd like to be self-employed for 10 years and making good hourly rate and uh i can't even though my pain levels are down to two i still i still suffer from localized pain right and so i can't be a full-time painter or a full-time bricklayer or anything like that you know i might hang on so when you're.
[1:06:17] Off your knee does it still hurt like when you're sitting, Okay, so you need a sitting job. Yeah.
[1:06:25] Which is why. Yeah. And also I can stand up a little bit too. And also I could probably do maybe teaching, right? Teaching. But I might have some panel for that.
[1:06:35] But I could probably do it. You got into law school, right? So sorry, sorry to interrupt. Is that what you want to do? I'm just trying. I don't have any judgment. I'm just curious. Is that what you want to do?
[1:06:49] Oh, yeah. That's the question. That's the question, Stefan.
[1:06:57] Okay, so how long does it take to become a lawyer, like all the way, passing the bar and… Yeah.
[1:07:04] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all the way from today, I will pass the bar in about four years. So I have a degree and then I pass the bar. 43 and a half.
[1:07:15] So, I mean, you're staring down 50 by the time you become a lawyer, right?
[1:07:22] Yeah, that's right. I'm a proper lawyer. And my kind of role model now is not – I wouldn't say a role model at this point, but I do potentially have a good role model, and that is my sister's husband. And he suggested that this is a 10-year plan, Oscar. If you do this, this, and that, in 10 years' time, you should be self-employed, and you can be making $350 or $400 an hour. You should do it this way, provided things go well. So there's a little bit of a compelling thing there. Okay, but hang on.
[1:07:51] Hang on. Is it about the money or is it about being a lawyer? Well, but you didn't mention anything about being a lawyer other than the money. You didn't say, like, I have a thirst for justice and to right the wrongs in the world and put the bad guys in jail or defend the innocent people. There's no – and it's not a criticism. I'm just pointing it out that if you're motivated – hang on. Hang on. Listen.
[1:08:15] Not good.
[1:08:16] Have I let you talk a lot? okay so when i'm talking could you do me a solid and not talk in my ear, thank you so if you're motivated by the money the motivation won't last, because there isn't going to be any meaning in the money in the long run and it's not enough to sustain human ambition to simply aim at the money so if you have some because you're asking me for meaning right so meaning is morality meaning is doing good in the world there's nothing else that gives meaning other than doing good in the world so if you want to become a lawyer because, there is some self-righteous or righteous moral mission that you want to accomplish in the world great and you know the money will come and there's nothing wrong with the money but if you're just like well 350 an hour if i follow my brother-in-law's 10-year plan that's not going to be enough to give you meaning right.
[1:09:11] Yeah, it'll have to go beyond money.
[1:09:13] So that's what I'm asking. Do you care about being a lawyer?
[1:09:19] Oh, I do. I mean, I've always had a strong sense of justice. It comes from, I know where it comes from too. And particularly my experience in high school where I was teased all the time.
[1:09:28] Well, I'll tell you, sorry to interrupt. I'll tell you how, I mean, if you really want to get meaning out of a lawyer, you become a lawyer who does malpractice. You become a lawyer Who holds Asshole doctor's feet to the fire.
[1:09:46] That's right That's why I.
[1:09:48] Try to.
[1:09:49] Find personal injury law.
[1:09:50] Okay Alright So we've got a little bit more time And how can I best help you in the time that we have.
[1:10:00] Well That's where I'm at now Well, in the last week or so, I've kind of got a little bit more clarity on this. I went for a job interview for a job that was related to my previous degrees that I earned when I was in pain. And it was a good job interview. I think I did well, but I didn't get the job. And so that kind of made me feel good, actually, because it meant that I have to go down a law path. So I feel a bit more compelled to do law now than I did a week and a half ago.
[1:10:37] Okay, so how are you going to pay for the law degree?
[1:10:45] They have a system here where essentially the Commonwealth pays for it. And then when I start working full time, I pay back that debt.
[1:10:54] Okay, so you can pay that.
[1:10:55] With a bit of interest.
[1:10:56] And is your girlfriend getting better or worse or staying about the same with her mental health issues?
[1:11:05] She's gotten slightly better, but she's gotten slightly better with her mental health issues. Yeah, she kind of argued with me a bit. You know, I said, just get a full-time job or just get a job, any job.
[1:11:22] I'm sorry, isn't she working as a doctor?
[1:11:25] She hasn't. Yes, but, you know, her parents hover around. And, you know, if I'm not a lawyer or a doctor or engineer, She's worried that they'll criticize her decision to date me.
[1:11:38] I'm sorry, she's 47 years old and she's still worrying about what her parents will say about who she dates? Okay.
[1:11:46] That's what I say. But I think she's kind of...
[1:11:49] No, I get it, but that's a big cultural difference.
[1:11:51] Great.
[1:11:51] Okay.
[1:11:51] It's a bit crazy.
[1:11:52] All right, so help me understand the pluses of having this woman as your girlfriend. Because obviously the minuses are pretty obvious. And look, I don't know whether you should be with her or not. And it doesn't matter what my opinion is. I'm just kind of curious, like, what are the pluses?
[1:12:13] Well, she's a very decent person. She's financially independent.
[1:12:28] Those aren't really pluses.
[1:12:31] Yeah, I know. She knew me before and after.
[1:12:35] Let's try it this way. What are her virtues? What do you admire about her morally?
[1:12:42] She's a very very good morally or morally she's very decent she's very decent she treats everyone with respect um she's a very good doctor she goes the extra mile every all the time um she she's a clean person um you know clean in terms of around the house that's not really virtues but.
[1:13:00] It's nice i.
[1:13:01] Get that that's.
[1:13:01] Not really a virtue and it also could be related to the ocd right.
[1:13:09] Yeah, It's like the pain went from your It's like the pain went from your fucking legs To.
[1:13:18] Your girlfriend Like now you've just got another burden to carry How about.
[1:13:22] You don't have any.
[1:13:23] Burdens for a while.
[1:13:27] That's what my friends say, but you summed it up even more succinctly. You summed it up more succinctly. The pain's gone from her.
[1:13:37] Well, she's been 40-plus years at this. You said at the age of six. I'm never going to be happy, right? So this is who she is. It fluctuates to some degree, but she's had 40 years to deal with this issue. And i assume obviously like you're both very intelligent people so i assume you know dancing is one of the best cures for depression is from what i've read right so i assume that you all have looked up all of the possible treatments and approaches and protocols and she's tried everything uh with great dedication and nothing has fixed it so this is who she is right i mean if she's been wrestling with this for let's say a little under 30 years as an adult right so 30 years ago she would have been uh 17 right so a little under 30 years she's been working with this as an adult and she she understands all the biology and she's looked for all the medical sorry i'm getting a whole ton of background noise here that's right i'm sorry stefan okay it's right yeah so she's looked at all the physical courses i assume as you say she's tried cbt i assume she's tried medication i assume she's tried exercise and sunlight and dancing and all the other things so so this is i'm sorry she.
[1:15:00] Hasn't tried the dancing stuff she hasn't tried the dancing stuff because she's been very lonely so so i've come along and we're gonna do the dancing stuff together but that's the physical stuff not so much she could do dancing and we've been looking at getting her getting us for her a dog.
[1:15:16] Okay has Has she tried hard physical exercise? No, come on. What do you mean?
[1:15:27] She hasn't tried half these exercises, but she did work hard in hospitals and stuff.
[1:15:31] No, no, hard work is not the solution. Again, I'm not a doctor, right? So please don't take this as any kind of medical advice. But from what I've read, hard exercise, sunlight, and socializing, and dancing, and talk therapy, and so on, can be helpful from what I've read. Of course, do your own research and so on. And I'm just wondering how many of these she's tried.
[1:16:02] Yep.
[1:16:04] I mean, she still sounds scared of her parents, which means that there's probably a maturity element that's missing.
[1:16:13] Yes, that's true.
[1:16:14] So how does she make your life fantastically better?
[1:16:25] Well she gave me no no she didn't.
[1:16:27] Otherwise you wouldn't be.
[1:16:28] Calling me, yeah well you know she'll call me up at 10 o'clock at night and go i need you here i'm not feeling well and i would drive 40 43 minutes to see her and that gave me a sense of purpose And I was like, well, at least taking care of her gave me a sense of purpose, yes.
[1:16:51] Okay, but you can't fix her? No.
[1:16:57] I can't fix her, but I can mitigate some of the pain.
[1:16:59] Well, okay, but you've been...
[1:17:02] I mean, we go out walking. We go out walking.
[1:17:04] But you've been mitigating pain your entire life. Why would you want to take on more? Yeah.
[1:17:14] Well, I think there's some virtue in caring for someone. I think there's virtue in caring for someone.
[1:17:28] Okay, come on, man. Let's not talk at this level. I mean, caring for someone doesn't mean propping up someone with catastrophic mental illness. Caring for someone is, oh, are you a little tense, honey? I'll give you a neck rub. Oh, are you feeling unwell? well, let me bring you some soup or, oh, you seem a little down. Tell me about your day or like that's caring for someone, not trying to be a sort of psych ward for somebody with some pretty catastrophic mental illness, right?
[1:17:58] There's truth to what you're saying. Yes. And you're right. I haven't heard that kind of angle before. But the answer to your question is, I've been doing it thus far because loyalty, I feel like you did feel my legs.
[1:18:17] No, don't even try. Don't even try that bullshit with me, man. Don't even try. Don't even try. Listen, what you're saying is, if a doctor cures a woman, what she has to fuck him for years are you kidding me yeah and don't give me that.
[1:18:35] Yeah but there's not a lot of sex stuff either.
[1:18:37] Oh i have no doubt but what i'm saying is if if a doctor cures a woman does that mean she has to be uh his girlfriend for the next couple of years and and take care of him if he gets sick and just because doctors get paid that's you know what i mean you, okay so so don't give me this like she cured my legs that's nice that she cured your legs but that does not mean that you then have to take care of her as she can't get out of bed for the next 20 years true okay let me ask you let me ask you this and again she's welcome to call in and set me straight on anything I get wrong. Let me ask you this. Has she talked about how her suffering spills over to you?
[1:19:28] Are we still with us? You've got to be kidding me. All right. Maybe he ran out of power it's hard to say um all right well i'll i'll i guess i'll chat a little bit here and i don't know if this guy's coming back it's a bit of a chaotic call he called up on a speakerphone in a wind tunnel and so on so.
[1:19:59] So we can get used to these chronic pain conditions. We can get used to managing disasters and difficulties. And that's this assignment of Boxer thing. All we do is manage pain. All we do is manage pain. And listen, this poor caller. I mean, what a terrible situation to be in for decades because of some degree, to a large degree, like going from a 10 to an 8 to now a 2 with localized pain rather than chronic dual leg pain.
[1:20:25] Because of a misdiagnosis or an underdiagnosis is beyond wretched. It and you know obviously nothing but sympathy for all of that but we can get so used to managing, people's pain managing our own pain managing other people's pain taking care of people like he said caring is you know trying to deal with this catastrophic level of depression to the point where it seems like on a fairly regular basis if i understood what he was saying correctly on a fairly regular basis she can't even get out of bed, i mean that's that's pretty terrible right she can't even get out of bed.
[1:21:10] So you don't want to spend your life managing that you don't want to go from managing your father's alcoholism to managing your mother's issues to managing poverty to managing chronic pain to all of that sort of stuff to now managing this woman's depression. And of course, you know, nothing but sympathy for his girlfriend, the fact that she has.
[1:21:35] These uh this issue is is very difficult and it's a big challenge i've never, i mean my mother i guess for some time when she was turning 40 didn't know to get out of bed for i don't know a week or two something like that now i didn't really understand it at the time now the math kind of checks out but i've never been around somebody who's that depressed and that level of severe depression is really tough even for professionals to treat my understanding is and again this is not any kind of medical advice my understanding is that if it's really catastrophic they can put her on some meds which take you know some weeks to work but sometimes for me you just kind of have to will yourself to do stuff and find ways to distract yourself from feeling down but.
[1:22:22] My general belief is that there's usually childhood stuff at the root of this kind of stuff you know maybe there's some big biochemical thing but that's never been proven doesn't mean it's impossible of course but it's never been proven and this idea that she healed me therefore i owe her my life is not reasonable it's not reasonable i mean doctors have cured me of i but certainly one fell disease and that didn't mean that i owed that doctor my my life going forward i don't have to track her and then when she gets old take care of her for year after year because she cured me of a felt disease that's not particularly rational but also and the other thing too of course once you get entangled with someone who has severe cognitive challenges such as this or severe, mental health challenges such as this it sounds like some pretty severe depression.
[1:23:23] Once you get entangled in that It's very hard to get disentangled Because they have come to rely upon you You're the only shining light in their life And without you You fear And I'm not saying that this is what the woman has said Of course I doubt it But you fear that if you, leave them, then they're not going to get out of bed at all or maybe become self-destructive in some manner. So it usually is a good idea to not get involved with people who have these kind of catastrophic issues. You can care, of course, and you can suggest ways to approach it. But if this has been, you know, 40 years of never being happy, then, you know, you can't solve it. And also, you know, it's a tough call, right? But when you're in a romantic relationship, if there's no sexual activity, and of course, there's going to be times naturally where that's the case, you know, if you're ill or whatever it is, right? Or, you know, somebody's mother's just died or there's a kid been born. There's going to be some time with no sexual activity, of course, right? But it should not be the norm. And if you get trapped into these sort of propped up, I wouldn't say trapped, but if you end up kind of stuck in one of these prop the person up relationships, then that is a very tough thing to hang on to. That is a very tough thing to sustain. That is a very tough thing to have play out.
[1:24:46] And generally, it's a very, very bad idea. Don't try to fix what the experts cannot fix. Now, of course, I understand that she fixed what his experts for decades were unable to fix, which is really terrible. But, yeah, she's got chronic neck pain. She's got issues of severe depression, it sounds like. She has, I assume, some mobility issues with regards to her neck. And she has, obviously, severe happiness issues, to put it mildly. And it doesn't sound to me, again, what do I know, right? but it doesn't sound like to me. I mean, if I was suffering from some significant depression, I would say, okay, what are the most common ways that you can solve or fix depression? And from what I've read, again, no expert, no medical advice, no psychologist, blah, blah, blah, no psychiatrist. I ain't no doctor with degree, but I would list through all of those things and I would just apply myself as much as I humanly could to achieving whatever I could by pursuing the most common methodologies that have been relatively proven. And again, just off the top of my head from memory, there are some significant positives that can be achieved through things like, you know, making sure you get good exercise, making sure you have a good social life.
[1:26:10] Making sure you get good sleep as best as possible. And again, from what I've read, dancing is a significant plus when dealing with these kinds of issues. So I would just work through those things as a whole. And, you know, hopefully one would take. But of course, one of the challenges is that if you really feel like you can't get out of bed, it can be pretty tough to find, feel, the motivation. To pursue and achieve those kinds of goals. So that is a big challenge. But yeah, with regards to meaning, carrying his own burden of still pain, right? And the fact that it's gone down is obviously beyond wonderful, right? The fact that it's gone down is fantastic, but it's still there, right? He still has his pain.
[1:27:07] And that is a big issue to deal with and taking on somebody else's mental health issues, which sound pretty severe. They sound pretty severe. So trying to take on those kinds of mental health issues is probably a bad idea as a whole. Certainly amateurs can't fix what professionals have a great deal of difficulty trying to fix. So I would be very careful about that kind of stuff. So I'm going to just see here if I can figure this out, and see if I can't, you know, I don't want to sort of hover around the edge of the things that I know. And again, I don't want to leave anybody with any ridiculous amateur impressions of what is a good approach or potentially a good approach when dealing with the significant levels of depression. So let me just bring up here, if I'm going to X, I'm going to go to a good old friend, Grok, and say, list the five best...
[1:28:26] Solutions for deep depression, in order of efficacy.
[1:28:38] Again, this is not medical advice. Grok is not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. You know, you get all of that kind of stuff, right? So let's see. Let's see what there is.
[1:28:55] And again i i'm always i just if you know my prejudice or not i'm always a big fan of looking towards uh looking towards talk therapy is usually uh that's sort of my first go-to, go-to position right.
[1:29:15] Okay, so electroconvulsive therapy, the most effective acute treatment with odds ratios up to 12.86 response versus placebo, superior to medication and other therapies for severe life-threatening depression, or when rapid remission is needed. Brief electrical stimulation under anesthesia side effects include temporary memory issues. We talked about this on Friday night. Non-invasive brain stimulation. With a 3.35 for response, ranks just below electroconvulsive therapy in meta-analysis, highly effective for treatment-resistant cases with 60 to 80% response rates in studies using magnetic pulse to target mood-regulating brain areas, session size 20 to 40 minutes, four to six weeks. Ketamine, IV infusion, or esketamine nasal spray, rapid-acting effects in hours or days with a odds ratio of 2.94 for response. Severe suicidal depression is good for that. 50% to 70% response in trials.
[1:30:25] Let's see. Combination therapy, antidepressant medication plus psychotherapy. More effective than either alone relative to 2.15 versus usual care. Small to moderate effect sizes. Moderate to severe MDD. Addresses symptoms and underlying patterns. Meds like venlafaxine/SNRIs pair well with 12 to 16 therapy sessions. Personally, I would opt for longer, but that's obviously just me. And antidepressant medications alone. Okay. What about exercise? Sunlight. A good sleep and dancing. Yeah, let's just see what, again, this is just AI, so it's not official, right? Bum, bum, bum. What have we got?
[1:31:23] You can do it. Lifestyle interventions for deep depression, exercise, sunlight, sleep, and dancing. These are excellent, accessible additions to the clinical treatments mentioned earlier. While they're often most effective in adjuncts, enhancing recovery or preventing relapses and severe depression, they have strong evidence as standalone or supportive options, especially for milder cases of maintenance.
[1:31:45] Okay, so one, exercise. Aerobical strength training tops the list with moderate to large effects, reducing symptoms by 20% to 50% in severe cases, often comparable to meds, but with added physical benefits. Aim for 150 minutes per week, walking, jogging.
[1:32:04] A 2024 BMJ meta-analysis of 218 trials confirmed benefits across depression severities, including treatment-resistant. High-intensity intervals show even faster mood lifts in 2025 studies. Dancing structured dance or dance movement therapy a joyful subset of exercise with potentially superior mental health gains via endorphins social connections and rhythm, meta-analysis shows significant depression reductions up to 30 to 40 percent especially in adults or older populations and it's more engaging than solo workouts try one to two sessions a week e.g. Ballroom or freestyle classes 20 to 24 to 20 to 25 sorry 2024 to 2025 reviews rank it highly for anxiety too. Sunlight exposure. Effective for non-seasonal severe depression, response rates 40 to 50 percent, remission up to 41 percent by regulating circadian rhythms and serotonin. 30 to 60 minutes daily outdoors or 10,000 lux light box for 30 minutes morning. Recent matters confirm benefits beyond seasonal affective disorder with low side effects. Great for those with limited mobility.
[1:33:11] Good sleep hygiene, foundational with small to moderate effects on symptom severity. Poor sleep worsens depression by directionally focused on seven to nine hours a night via routines, no screens, pre-bed, consistent schedule, and so on. Non-drug fixes like CBT/I reduce depression by 20 to 30% in clinical trials. Even brief sleep restriction can acutely help severe cases. Prioritize if insomnia is a factor. Consult a doctor before starting, especially if suicidal, says Scrock. Please amplify professional care.
[1:33:46] All right. That's very, very interesting. Okay. What are the effects of long-term therapy, talk therapy, on severe depression?
[1:34:03] Okay. Talk therapy, psychotherapy, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, or CBT, interpersonal therapy, IPT, or psychodynamic approaches, that's the internal family systems therapy of Richard Schwartz, among others, is a cornerstone for treating severe major depressive disorder, MDD. Long-term typically refers to treatment lasting six or more months of follow-ups beyond the acute phase, 12 to 24 plus months. Evidence from meta-analysis shows it's effective for symptom reduction, remission, and relapse prevention, often outperforming medications alone over time, though combined with meds yields the best results for severe cases. Benefits accrue gradually with lower risk of worsening symptoms compared to controls. However, 50% of people, about 50%, may not fully respond, and relapse remains a risk. For severe depression, data is sparser but supportive, especially in combination.
[1:35:03] So, of course, the challenge is that if your mental health issues have to do with bad relationships, then remission will be much more likely if those bad relationships are not dealt with. So, that's pretty important.
[1:35:26] So these are uh things that are important to to sort of figure out and understand so, yeah with regards to meaning though find something that's going to add to the virtue of this world is going to add for the morale add to the morality of this world do your part to promote virtue and fight evil and i think that you will have the best chance, for meaning all right well i'm afraid that our good friend was not able to finish the call, but i hope that the information that i have provided is helpful for people as a whole i wish him the very best his girlfriend is certainly welcome to call in, and perhaps we can have an interesting conversation about her relationships and what's going on in her life so thank you everyone so much as usual freedomain.com/donate to help out the show you can of course set up your own calls at freedomain.com/call and lots of love from up here best luck out there i'll talk to you soon bye.
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