0:04 - Opening Remarks
0:09 - Parenting Questions and Concerns
6:38 - Park Experiences with Kids
12:50 - Reflections on Childhood Trauma
20:10 - Understanding Parental Influence
24:24 - Conversations About Negative Experiences
30:18 - The Challenge of Parenting
38:06 - The Importance of Engaging Play
46:55 - Exploring Parenting Dynamics
54:39 - The Impact of Childhood Experiences
1:00:27 - Lessons on Communication and Support
1:07:43 - The Role of Connection in Parenting
1:20:19 - Closing Thoughts and Future Conversations
In this engaging call in, the host Stefan opens the floor to a live call from a listener, where he dives deep into the nuances of parenting and childhood experiences. The caller shares his anxieties about social interactions in the playground with his nearly two-year-old daughter, illuminating the tension many parents feel about exposing their children to potential conflicts or negative experiences.
The conversation unravels as the caller describes his upbringing, marked by parental absence and emotional detachment, which has led him to doubt his capabilities as a new parent. He reflects on a lack of social preparation during his childhood, fearful that he may pass on these anxieties to his daughter. Stefan guides the conversation, encouraging the caller to disclose more about his childhood, using it as a lens to understand his current concerns as a parent.
As the caller recounts memories from his early years — including experiences with nannies, social isolation, and early school interactions — Stefan probes deeper to identify the roots of the anxiety surrounding his daughter’s interactions with other children. The caller reveals has a strained relationship with his father, who he feels failed to provide emotional support and guidance in navigating social challenges. This historical context forms the foundation for the caller's current apprehensions about his own parenting style and how to best prepare his daughter for interactions with peers.
Stefan expertly navigates these revelations, emphasizing that while negative experiences can be daunting for the caller, they can also serve as vital lessons for children when approached with the right guidance and support. He reassures the caller that fostering an environment where open communication is welcome will prevent the isolation he experienced as a child. The caller acknowledges this insight, recognizing that his daughter's ability to talk about her feelings openly will shield her from the fears he once faced in silence.
The discussion progresses as Stefan emphasizes the importance of parental involvement in children's lives, drawing on his personal experiences of active engagement with his own daughter at playgrounds and during social outings. He differentiates between healthy participation in a child's play and the pitfalls of helicopter parenting, arguing that being present in a child's life is crucial for building resilience and confidence.
The caller reflects on this new perspective, considering how interacting with his daughter during play can offer her not just companionship but also necessary social skills and emotional tools to navigate the outside world confidently. Stefan further articulates that exposure to minor challenges, when paired with parental support, does not equate to negative experiences but rather enriches a child's understanding of social dynamics.
Throughout the call, the discussion intricately weaves through themes of isolation, emotional maturity, and the importance of nurturing relationships between parents and children. By the end of the segment, the caller expresses gratitude for the insights he has gained, indicating a shift in his outlook on parenting. Stefan reinforces the notion that building a supportive dialogue with one’s child can help them confront and understand the complexities of interpersonal relationships, ultimately paving the way for healthier emotional development.
As the conversation draws to a close, Stefan summarizes the key takeaways—encouraging the caller to embrace both the joys and challenges of parenting while fostering an environment of trust and communication with his daughter. The episode encapsulates a thoughtful exploration of parenting challenges, childhood influences, and the significant role that emotional support plays in a child’s social development, resonating with many listeners navigating similar anxieties.
[0:00] Hello, hello. 2nd of June 2025, just after 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.
[0:04] Going to answer some questions in case people had any questions live that they wanted to ask.
[0:10] I am perfectly happy to hear those. Thank you so much.
[0:13] Can you hear me, Stefan?
[0:14] Yes, sir. Go ahead.
[0:16] Hey, Stefan. I had a question. So I have a daughter. She's almost two. And, you know, I take her to the park and stuff. um and i often feel a lot of like anxiety around other children and i'm trying to figure out how much of that is like it's just recent reality like other children not being peacefully parent and this kind of stuff and being cautious about that or how much of that is based on on my own history um not sure if this is uh do you have time for a question like that or um that's a good What do you mean?
[0:52] It's a parenting question. You're a listener with a kid. That's how I roll. That's what I do. So, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Tell me more.
[0:59] Uh yeah so so um i mean i take my daughter to the park and she's not really old enough to play with the other kids but she kind of just likes to be around them just like watch them and um and sort of observe and maybe she'll sort of um engage sometimes but for the most part she just likes to watch them and just kind of be around and whenever the other kids are around it's just kind of it's i find it a little nerve-wracking um and yeah i'm just trying to figure out because i I had, you know, I had a bad childhood and I, a lot of social isolation and stuff and my parents didn't really prepare me to deal with other kids and this kind of thing. So I'm trying to figure out how much is that like I need to get over my own thing or if it's just objective, like, you know, kids are not peacefully parented and you need to be cautious around them.
[1:48] Okay, well, more variables is always good. Tell me a little bit about your childhood, or a lot.
[1:55] Yeah. So my mother was very busy, and she worked in – she was like a marketer. She'd come home at like seven or eight uh pretty much every night um and my dad um was very distant very emotionally distant and and not really there and he had like a really bad temper, um so and it would be you know over over little things i actually talked to you about this 10 years ago now um but um yeah and yeah i don't remember them giving me any, sort of advice on how to deal with other children like the earliest memory i have with, um dealing with other children was um it was like my first day of pre-kindergarten you'd spend like half the day at school um and i was dropped off and four, uh pre-k it must be i remember grade one was um i was i would have been seven turning seven so i must have been four or five yeah and.
[3:09] What was going on in your childhood before that was your mother home or did you, um, are you dumped somewhere?
[3:15] No, I had a nanny. My mother was, she stayed home for like, you know, six months, typical maternity leave. And then my father was a teacher at a college. So he didn't actually work that much because he was a college teacher. So he was home a fair amount, but I had a nanny. I had like a string of nannies, kind of like in a character in The Gaudy Atheist.
[3:39] Did you say a string of nannies? The nummies, right?
[3:42] I had, yeah, I had a nanny that I really bonded with a lot, actually. And she was quite good to me from what I remember. She was, like, Croatian. But she, I don't remember why she stopped being my nanny, but I don't know if it was her choice or my parents, but I was really, like, heartbroken when she stopped being my nanny when I was, I must have been eight, nine, something like that. But, yeah.
[4:09] Oh, wow. So you had a nanny up till like your late- I had a.
[4:12] Nanny till eight or nine. Yeah. And then we had like our neighbor became our nanny. Like our neighbor was a stay-at-home mom and she just sort of, I guess my parents paid her to be our nanny. And then I had like an Italian nanny who was kind of weird, but that was more like when I was almost a teenager until I was old enough to kind of take care of myself at home.
[4:32] Okay. So did the nanny, did you remember your early nannies at all?
[4:39] Uh yeah my first nanny i remember quite a bit she was um i mostly have positive memories of her she was um she was very uh very warm and nice and had a daughter that kind of hung out with us the whole time when she was working um the daughter was like a few years older she was more like five or a few years older than me at the time yeah and.
[4:59] Did you play with her at all.
[5:00] Uh yeah yeah we played we I played a lot with her.
[5:03] So you had some experience with kids as a kid?
[5:06] Yes, yeah.
[5:07] And do you have siblings?
[5:09] I have a younger sister, yeah.
[5:12] Okay, how much younger?
[5:14] She's three years younger.
[5:15] And did you play with her much at all?
[5:19] Um, not so much. A little bit here and there, but for the most part I'd play with my nanny or I'd play with my Legos or something. Not so much with her.
[5:30] Oh, so you played solitarily, is that right?
[5:35] Yeah, or with my nanny, for the most part.
[5:38] Okay. And were there kids in the neighborhood?
[5:42] Uh yeah there were kids in the neighborhood um i remember playing with them more as i got a bit older um i think more after like seven eight or nine we would it was kind of like um you know it was canada in the in the 90s and early 2000s so it's pretty high trust still back then um and, we uh sort of played like hockey and basketball and this kind of stuff and just kind of like free-range to some degree, but it was a bit older that I started playing with other kids in the neighborhood.
[6:16] Okay. All right. So you have reasonable levels of experience playing with kids, right?
[6:22] Yes. Yeah.
[6:23] Okay. But not until you were older?
[6:25] Yeah.
[6:26] Okay. So tell me what happens when you go to the park in Canada?
[6:36] Right now?
[6:38] Yeah.
[6:39] Yeah. um we go to the park um and i sort of just um we either push my daughter in the swing, um and she kind of likes doing that and staring at the kids or she's sort of she likes climbing now so she's really good at climbing things, um so if you know if there's no one there i don't feel the anxiety obviously um but when when there are other kids there we kind of just go go to the park and um she sort of stares at them and we i kind of like hang around her and make sure they don't like bump into her or something or she doesn't fall um off of the off of the playground um so i fall.
[7:19] Off the playground.
[7:21] Uh it's you know it's on on the um when you climb on the playground and she's not like old enough to sort of um climb herself all the way up so um like not fall off the climbing the monkey bars just kind of yeah yeah the climbing got it.
[7:35] Okay and have you seen kids who are mean or careless at the park.
[7:43] Yeah, yeah.
[7:44] And what have you seen?
[7:51] Well, not so much mean. A little bit of mean. Like I saw this group of three kids and it was like a boy and two girls. And I have a really hard time guessing ages, but I would guess that they're maybe 9, 10, 11. Um and the boy uh kind of like threw rocks at the one girl um and then she was she said something, and he was like every time you say that word i'm gonna throw stuff at you um so that that was kind of the the main thing i saw and another time um i was at the park and um It was like a, there's like a campground near me. And we were there on like a Friday afternoon. So everyone was like coming in for the weekend.
[8:44] Sorry, you mean like an adult campground?
[8:47] Yeah, yeah.
[8:47] Yeah, not like a kid's camp, summer camp. Okay, got it.
[8:50] No, no, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just a campground where people come for the weekend. And there's like a day use area that we can hang out in. And it's like walking distance from our house.
[8:59] And there were like four kids there. So there's a one boy, and he was like, he must have been like 12 or 13. He was really like athletic looking and he just kind of showed up. And none of these kids were that mean. But I sort of, the three kids were in a family. And then this one just random boy came and became friends with them just like automatically as i guess sometimes happens when you're kids um and uh he kind of like ran off with the other kids they went to like the campsite or whatever and then came back and i overheard it's that random boy's parents um and he was like talking like pretty like not nicely to his daughter um the father of the boy um i couldn't hear what they were saying but um i think he was asking where the boy went and she was like i don't know and he was like he was just being like it seemed unnecessarily like stirring with her yeah um and then the um the the boy came back and the father called the boy over um and said something like you don't like you stay at the park or you come here like you don't you don't go off running which i guess is reasonable but it seems like it would make more sense to like get to know the other kids and see if they're like safe to hang out with kind of thing rather than just like uh scold them or whatever so i felt sort of anxious around those kids because they're a little rough around the edges some of the people around here are a little like um trailer trashy well but you want.
[10:28] Your kids to be around kids who are a little rough around the edges because they're going.
[10:32] To meet those people in.
[10:32] Life right and i'm not saying at the age of two if your daughter fends for herself i'm not saying anything like.
[10:38] That but.
[10:39] Try not to be, and I'm not saying you are, but try to avoid the bubble wrap parent thing. Like, because I had bad experiences, my children cannot have bad experiences. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of like if you were chronically sick as a child and then you say, well, my kids can't go anywhere or do anything because they don't want them to be sick. Right. But that's not, you know, that's, that's not going to help. Right. Cause they need to be out there, you know, a little bit eating dirt and being exposed to germs. And that's, you know, that's important. Right. So it's important not to swing the other way. Right. So your kids are going to have negative experiences. That doesn't mean that you're a bad parent. in fact because life is well i mean sometimes it feels like an entire sequence of negative experiences you know they certainly cluster right so your kids need to be able to deal with negative situations they need to be able to deal with difficult people they need to be able to deal with aggressive people because they're going to run into those in life and so you need to give them some sort of inoculation now again you don't turn them loose you model it all and we'll get to that in a sec, but is it your feeling that your daughter can't have negative experiences?
[11:54] Yes, I think there's some of that overprotectiveness, and I think my wife sort of feels that way as well.
[12:02] So give me sort of your top two or three most negative experiences as a kid that you think is driving this, and they could be long-term experiences too.
[12:15] So I think, well, so the story that I think I didn't finish in the beginning, but my first day of pre-K, we were... I kind of showed up, and we were running, just running around a tree. That was just the whole game. I was running around the tree. And I think some kids pushed me over, and that was like a negative experience for me. And it wasn't like a huge negative experience for me. It's just that I didn't have anyone to talk to about it, and I didn't like...
[12:51] Sorry, tell me what you mean, some kid pushed you over. What do you mean? In what detail? What does that mean?
[12:54] Um, like we're running around a tree and some kid pushed me over, um, and I fell and it hurt or whatever.
[13:01] Um, and, uh, what was your impression that this was a conscious, like, it wasn't just like they, you were running into each other. He put his hands out to protect himself and you fell down. Do you think this was a target you lock in conscious push you over thing?
[13:15] Uh, he was behind me, so I don't think it was a, it was an accident.
[13:19] Well, it could be. And again, I'm not trying to defend the kid. But I'm just trying to saying, is it possible that, how old was the kid, roughly?
[13:28] He would have been the same age as being sort of around five or six.
[13:31] Okay, so he could have just been get out of the way. Like, it may not have been malicious. Possibly, right? So, again, you don't know what his intentions were. And it's important not to jump to conclusions about intentions as a whole. So, you were pushed over, and it could have been malevolent. It could have been, although it's hard to say a five-year-old is malevolent, right? But it could also have been um accidental right maybe he was tripping and just reached out to steady himself and you got pushed or maybe he was just kind of selfish in a way and he was like get out of my way you're in my way i need to move out of my way or it could have been, i'm going to push you over to hurt you and you know be a bully or whatever right so it could be any number of those things but you were pushed and you fell and then what.
[14:14] Um that that's pretty much it um i'm trying to think of.
[14:21] Um so did you get like strawberry knee or you cut some bruises or what happened with you being pushed.
[14:29] Um, I don't remember if I had any cuts and bruises. It just, it was just kind of an unsettling experience, um, to go from, cause it was my first day in public school, basically, um, to go from just like hanging out with my nanny and, and the kids on the block, I guess, and my, my parents, and then, um, being sort of just. So you, you hit some rough running around a tree. Yeah. Yeah.
[14:51] Okay. And help me understand. I mean, you weren't injured, right? You got pushed down and help me i'm not trying to minimize your experience i'm just trying to, understand why this stuck with you in this way.
[15:09] Um well i i think i think it stuck with me because um, because i wasn't um taught how to how to deal with that or.
[15:24] How would you how would you have dealt with that if you'd been taught do you think well how would you teach a kid, i don't mean this to sound overly challenging like what the hell would you do i'm jim genuinely curious right how how would you like how would you have liked people to deal with it.
[15:49] Yeah so i think it probably would have been something like um, if i guess my dad might have talked to me it was probably like a father conversation and it's something like um well you know how we sort of um we like wrestle and and we play in this kind of thing um and i'm you know i'm an adult and i'm able to sort of control my body and this kind of thing um and and kids and you like to you like to roughhouse too and stuff and you like to wrestle with me um kids when you play with other kids they don't have the same um ability to control themselves like i do um so if you get into sort of roughhousing with other kids um they might you know push you and you might fall and it might hurt a little bit um but that's okay because that's part of part of being a kid and that's part of um you know learning how to how to use your um, maybe maybe unless uh you know um maybe less verbose words but um how i describe it but something like that like um it's sort of it's natural to to roughhouse with other kids and it gets a bit out of hand and you might get a little bit hurt.
[17:02] Okay. However, of course, it could have been a mean kid who wanted to hurt you. Could have been, right? So you can't give that speech as if you know what the kid's intentions are.
[17:12] Sure. Yeah.
[17:15] Okay. But it was not physically traumatic, right? You just, you got pushed over unsettling. I get that, but it wasn't physically dangerous or traumatic. Did the kid, did you see the kid after that? Was Is he continuing to be careless or cruel?
[17:32] I can't even remember these people at all. I can't remember any interruptions.
[17:35] No, but if the kid had been careless or cruel, I'm sure you would have remembered it, right?
[17:41] Yeah, yeah. So I don't remember much about this kid apart from...
[17:46] So mostly, I mean, most likely an accident if he didn't target you again and push you over again repeatedly, which I'm sure you would remember. So most likely an accident based on subsequent behavior, right?
[17:57] Yeah yeah that's true.
[17:58] So why do you think it unsettled you so much and to start a criticism i'm genuinely curious, i mean i have a theory but it's your experience so your your experience matters more than my theory.
[18:23] Well, I'm curious to hear your theory because I'm drawing a blank of it here.
[18:26] Well, my theory would be that because you were pushed over and because you fell and it was upsetting and maybe a little painful, you realized that you were unprotected in the world because you didn't have a father you could talk to about it. I don't know if you tried to talk about it with your nanny or your mother or anyone else, but you got a very strong sense of your own isolation in the social milieu because you were aggressed against by accident or on purpose, and you didn't have anyone you could talk to or anyone who would protect you, and therefore you got a strong sense of your isolation. And it was not the push or the fall that was unsettling. It was the unprotected and isolated nature of your existence as a child, I think, socially.
[19:13] Yeah, yeah, that's definitely, I think that resonates because I did talk to my nanny about it, but I didn't talk to my dad about it. And come to think about it, I was already, you know, I was playing sports and I think I was playing hockey by that time. And definitely more aggression happened in hockey or, you know, accidental falling or this kind of thing. But it was like sort of a structured environment.
[19:37] And for those who don't know, no joke in Canada, like I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out.
[19:43] Yeah. Yeah. So that I think that's that's definitely that is what it is. Yeah.
[19:51] OK, so why didn't you talk about it with your father? And again, I hate to repeat myself. i'm i'm sorry to be a broken record this is not like well why the hell didn't you talk to your father it's genuine curiosity why why did you not talk to your father what was your concern.
[20:11] Um i think i i got the sense mostly that it was it was pointless, Um, that he didn't have any interest in, in sharing with me how to deal with, uh, situations like this. Um, and he, he didn't, um, really know how to deal with this kind of stuff either because he, I think he, he grew up as a socially awkward person too. And never really dealt with it.
[20:45] A socially awkward guy who ended up as a university professor. All right.
[20:48] Yeah. Yeah. I think he grew up socially awkward and he never learned how to deal with people and how to be reasonably assertive because he had a bad temper and he would sort of build up these resentments and not sort of talk about them in a healthy way. And then eventually it would just you know boil over and he'd like scream or something, um so.
[21:18] I just got the sense that most professors are very fragile bullies which is why they have to go for tenure right i mean why why would you be so desperate for tenure if you felt you could earn and keep your job based on your merits so they tend to be kind of fragile and because they have so much power and the students they have so much power over students they end up being kind of bullies i'm not saying that's true of all professors and maybe that's not one-to-one ratio with your dad but it's quite common and very immature very very immature they stay very immature because they're shielded from adulthood market competition blowback consequences and so on so go ahead.
[21:51] Yeah he was he was like a huge underachiever because he was like he he scored like mental level on like um he'd do like iq tests and he'd score mental level and i.
[22:02] Don't remember these days i don't know that that's super impressive.
[22:07] Um i just know that he took iq tests and it was very high and i think he was a very smart person um but um he just like totally wasted his intellect well.
[22:18] Not totally i mean if he was a cab driver maybe or some five easy pieces thing but what do you mean totally.
[22:23] Oh because he taught like um uh climate change stuff like uh sustainability so i feel like that's a waste um he was a oh Like you felt the whole climate change.
[22:34] Propaganda or that was necessary.
[22:36] To have his job. He showed me that Al Gore documentary. What was it?
[22:42] Oh, An Inconvenient Truth.
[22:43] An Inconvenient Truth. Yeah. And he was like talking about peak oil and this kind of thing.
[22:49] Sorry, how old did he begin talking to you about environmental issues?
[22:57] Must have been... I have a hard time remembering. It must have been like 12 or something like that.
[23:04] Oh, okay. So he didn't hit your single digits with we're all going to die in a hellish conflagration, right? Okay. So it was at least until you were old.
[23:13] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A bit older, yeah. Okay.
[23:19] So you said that you felt it would be useless to talk to your father. What did you anticipate his response to be that you avoided talking to him about the push?
[23:33] Um it probably would have been something very brief like um like oh well kids are like that or something um and it wouldn't have been a very he probably would have tried to like keep the conversation brief and change the subject.
[23:50] Okay so let me try meeting your inner dad so i'll be you at five i won't alter my voice in any particular way because i don't respond well the helium but um yeah you be your dad and i'll i'll be you talking about this so i can get a sense of how he would respond if that's all right uh sure okay uh so dad uh i got i got it was my first day at pre-k today and i got pushed over by another kid it was really really unpleasant.
[24:22] That's not very nice, is it?
[24:25] No, it wasn't nice at all And I felt really bad I mean, I didn't get hurt really But I just felt really bad And I don't know what to do.
[24:44] I'm trying I'm kind of blanking.
[24:47] Well he would just He wouldn't continue the conversation Yeah Oh yeah that's tough And he would just blank off or go off somewhere Or pick up his phone or something like that right, So then I would say Dad I kind of need your I need something from you Like what do I do If I get pushed over, Oh.
[25:11] Well, you just, you know, you pick yourself up and you dust it off. That happens sometimes.
[25:17] Well, it didn't just happen. Like a kid pushed me. What am I supposed to do?
[25:25] Hmm. Um. Well, I'm not really sure.
[25:33] Well, what do you do when people push you around? I mean, I'm not saying people push you over, but what do you do?
[25:39] Well i'm not i'm not really a kid anymore so it doesn't really really happen to me.
[25:45] Oh so nobody like pushes you around or nobody's ever mean to you or because it seems like you're kind of grouchy about work a lot.
[25:53] Uh yeah well i mean my my students are kind of a pain sometimes so.
[25:57] Okay so your students can be difficult right and maybe they try and push you around or they ask for things that are unfair or something like that so what do you do, Um...
[26:19] Well, I kind of just, um, I, uh, I sort of make snarky comments, uh, and, uh, you know, make them feel stupid.
[26:31] Oh, I mean, that's not very assertive, is it?
[26:37] What do you mean?
[26:38] Well, I mean, of course, I'm not speaking like a five-year-old here, just so you know. But, I mean, that seems kind of passive-aggressive. You don't confront them directly on it. You just make mean comments and try to make them feel bad, right? Because, you know, you have a pretty bad temper around here sometimes, Dad. And so I guess you know something about it. And so when a kid pushes me over, you say, well, you're just supposed to dust it off and, I don't know, ignore it. But you don't ignore things that make you mad, which is why you're kind of grouchy. I mean, sometimes.
[27:07] Yeah, well, you know, you can't really, you know, get really aggressive with your students.
[27:16] But you do get pretty aggressive at home, right?
[27:22] Well, you know, sometimes I lose my temper.
[27:27] Okay, okay. So, because I was mad at the kid, right? So, I'm trying to figure out when should I lose my temper. And the first thing you say to me is you got pushed over. It was really upsetting. But don't let it bother you. But it seems like a lot of things bother you at home. So, I'm trying to figure out the difference. I mean if if you were waiting on the street corner and someone pushed you down to the ground and you kind of hurt yourself wouldn't you get mad.
[27:56] Uh yeah i guess i guess i would.
[27:58] Okay so what's the difference why should i just brush things off and not let them bother me but you would get mad that.
[28:11] Um, well, you know, um, once you get older, things are different.
[28:21] I feel like you're just kind of making up answers here, dad. I mean, you get the contradiction, right? Like you get the contradiction.
[28:30] You get that it doesn't fit together.
[28:32] Right? I should not let things bother me, but you spend a good chunk of your time cranky and mad around the house about things that aren't particularly important relative to getting pushed over. So I said, well, if you got pushed over, you'd get mad. Yes, I would. But you, son, you shouldn't get mad. You should just let it not bother you. But then why don't you follow that advice and not let things bother you? I mean, I'm not complaining. I'm just confused.
[29:02] I guess it's just, you know, it's just how I am. just how I am, I guess.
[29:08] Well, that's not an answer, right? With all due respect that. I mean, if you had a student who contradicted himself, right? You'd say, well, you have to resolve that contradiction, right? If you had a student who said, I don't know, CO2 is good and bad for global warming, you'd say, well, it kind of has to be one or the other, right? And if the kid said, well, that's just how my mind is, or that's just how things work, would you accept that? That's just how i am no right so you can't just say that's how i am that doesn't resolve any contradiction does it.
[29:47] Uh no i guess not.
[29:52] So what what are you what are you doing i don't understand what's it this conversation is just it feels like i'm in a in a in a in a laundry dryer just being tumbled around like when are you supposed to let things when are you supposed to not get bothered by things? And when are you supposed to get bothered by things? I don't understand the difference.
[30:19] I'm having a hard time answering in a way that's not like truth serum.
[30:23] Just answer it. Yeah, but answer.
[30:30] Well, you know, you're a very smart kid.
[30:39] I'm not sure how that answers my question. If I said to you, Dad, what does two and two make? And you said, well, you're a very smart kid. Are you saying, like, I should just figure it out for myself?
[30:50] Well, yeah.
[30:52] Okay, but you're in your 40s, and it seems that you haven't figured it out because you tell me not to get bothered by somebody who pushes me to the ground, but you get bothered by pretty minor things at home. So if I'm a smart kid and I'm five and I'm supposed to figure it out, how is it that you haven't figured it out in your 40s? How can you say that I should figure it out when you haven't? I mean, I'm asking you to do some parenting, Dad. Like, you've got to give me some rules here. You've got to give me some feedback. I mean, am I supposed to just parent myself? Am I supposed to just raise myself? I don't understand what's happening in this conversation. I mean, you're supposed to give me some knowledge and wisdom, aren't you?
[31:42] Well, you know, I try to do what I can.
[31:45] Well, that's just words, Dad, because you're not doing much of anything right now. I mean, would you say it's kind of complicated to figure out when you should get mad and fight back and when you should rise above things?
[31:56] Yeah, I guess it's complicated.
[31:59] You guess? What do you mean? You don't know this?
[32:03] Yeah, it's complicated.
[32:05] Okay, so stop guessing about things you know. That's very confusing, okay? So it is complicated. So have you got it all figured out in your 40s? Have you got it all figured out when you should get mad and when you should let things go?
[32:20] No, I don't.
[32:22] So, Dad, what the hell? Why would you tell me at the age of five to figure out something you, in your 40s, haven't figured out? Does that not seem weird to you? Like if you haven't figured out quantum mechanics or quantum physics or something, would you say to your kid at the age of five, you figure it out?
[32:44] Uh, well, you seem like you're pretty good at figuring things out.
[32:49] You're not answering my question. That's kind of rude.
[32:53] Uh, well... No, I, um... I don't think I'd expect you to figure out quantum mechanics.
[33:01] Okay, so if you haven't figured out when to get mad and when to let things go in your 40s, is it fair to expect me, at the age of five, to figure that out?
[33:11] Uh, no.
[33:12] So what are you doing? I don't understand this interaction. This is all just like weird fog and confusion. Oh, I get it. I know what's happening. Oh, Dad. That's very cunning. Oh, you're good. I mean, I'm happy to hear your answer, but I think I know what it is.
[33:37] Go ahead.
[33:38] Well, you don't want to give me a rule about when I should get mad and when I should let things go, because then you'd be bound by that rule and you wouldn't be able to be Mr. Graftgy pants all day.
[33:55] Yeah, I guess it would be kind of hypocritical, I mean, would it be?
[34:01] Right, so you don't want to define any rule. It's kind of like American governments or all the governments around the world. Many years ago, they tried to come up with a definition of terrorism, but they couldn't come up with one that didn't include all of their foreign policy. Again, I'm not speaking like a five-year-old. But yeah, so you don't want to define rules because then you'll be subjected to them. So you're just giving me all of this fog and nonsense, right?
[34:25] But that makes sense.
[34:27] So do you think that's good parenting?
[34:33] No, I guess not.
[34:35] So, Dad, I don't understand all of this fog. Like, you guess, you think, maybe, blah, blah, blah, right? I mean, when you get mad, things are kind of absolute, right? Someone did you wrong, you're mad, you're upset, you're grouchy, right? You storm around, you snarl. So, is it or is it not good parenting to not impose, like, not have rules for good conduct for your kids for fear that they might ask you to fulfill them?
[35:12] Yeah, I guess that's not good.
[35:14] See, again, with the I guess, what is going on? Maybe i think i guess possibly i mean this is all just a bunch of foggy nonsense like is it or is it not good parenting it's.
[35:29] Not good parenting.
[35:29] So why would you not do good parenting.
[35:37] Because it's easier.
[35:39] Well it's easier for you it's way harder for me do you know how terrified it was dad to come up and talk to you about this?
[35:52] No, I'm not sure. I don't know.
[35:55] Well, I was terrified that exactly what has happened would happen, which is that you just kind of dodge and weave and duck and make things up and not answer my questions and be all vague and not give me any parenting or feedback. Like i can't think of useful things that you've told me as your son that help me out there in the world and you don't really spend much time with me and you don't really play with me too much, so i mean how i mean let me ask you this right how would you rate yourself as a dad from one to ten.
[36:37] Maybe like a five.
[36:39] So 50% of the time you do good parenting?
[36:45] Yeah, I think so.
[36:47] Okay. So if I told you that, I mean, I just told you that I can't really think of any particular rules or feedback that you've given me that's helpful in the world, particularly the world of other kids or social life or whatever. If I say I can't remember one and you say, no, about 50% of the time I give you great advice, you can see a difference, right?
[37:07] Yeah, well, like, we have, like, a nice house.
[37:11] No, no, but that's not parenting. That's not providing. I mean, the government provides for people. It doesn't pay for them, right? Sorry, it doesn't pay for them. It pays for them. It doesn't parent them, right? So providing money, providing a house, that's not parenting. I mean, to take a silly extreme, prisons and gulags provide food and shelter, but nobody thinks that that's a benevolent or positive situation, right?
[37:42] Well, they don't provide very good shelter.
[37:45] Right, I get that. But, I mean, most parents throughout human history didn't provide very good shelter relative to a modern prison. At least a modern prison has air conditioning and soap and showers, right? Most people throughout human history, most parents didn't provide that, but we wouldn't call them bad parents if they gave good advice and were really connected with and cared about their kids more, right?
[38:06] Right, and and you providing is you being away right you have to be a way to provide and there's nothing wrong with that i guess that's part of being a parent but it's not the same as being present okay like when was the last time you and i spent a day together doing stuff.
[38:40] This is at five H5 yeah, well I took you to the the arboretum that one day.
[38:51] Okay so that's once when else Um...
[39:02] Well, I take you to your sports every weekend.
[39:05] Well, that's not you and I spending time together. That's like saying you're going on vacation with the guy who drives you to the airport. That's not it, right? What else?
[39:21] We go for walks and stuff sometimes.
[39:25] Okay. How often a month do we go for walks where we have good conversations?
[39:33] Good conversations never but well.
[39:37] What do you do on these.
[39:42] We just, I would role play I found the walks really boring I didn't like going on walks or anything like that animals and.
[39:51] Plants or like silent or what.
[39:56] Like he at the college they had an arboretum with like I guess they did like a wildlife stuff, and maybe they'd point out wildlife or this kind of thing, but I found that pretty boring. We would maybe go on walks, and I hated going on walks. I like walking now, but he liked walking a lot, but I hated it because it was so boring. We never had meaningful competition.
[40:19] Would he say anything?
[40:23] We might talk about... If we talked about anything, it would be about sports. But apart from that, yeah, pretty much... Pretty almost nothing.
[40:34] Okay so he didn't inquire in his mind as to what would be most enjoyable for you and try and fulfill that right no.
[40:41] No of course not.
[40:42] So let's jump back in um okay when was the last time we had a good long conversation about things.
[40:48] Uh i can't remember.
[40:58] Okay, so then you're not really doing much, if any, parenting, right?
[41:06] Well, I guess by your definition, no.
[41:11] Well, that's kind of Weasley, right? I mean, do you not think that it's good parenting as a whole to have interesting conversations, like spend time together, play together, and have conversations that are interesting and enjoyable for your children?
[41:26] Well my parents kind of just let me let me roam free and didn't have too many conversations with them.
[41:37] Okay and did you think did you prefer that to having interesting and enjoyable and connected conversations with your parents.
[41:48] Well I think I had a pretty good childhood.
[41:52] Sorry you had a what.
[41:53] I had a i had a good childhood i think.
[41:56] Yeah but you didn't answer my question again kind of rude right do you remember what my question was dead.
[42:05] Um did uh my parents have uh or.
[42:08] What i preferred yeah but you preferred it if you'd had connected and enjoyable conversations with your parents.
[42:16] Yeah, well, I would like to, you know, I've talked about how I would like to be able to talk to my mom again. She died before I was born, so he would talk about that sometime.
[42:28] Yeah, that's not my question, though. And I'm sorry about your dead mom, of course, but that's still not my question.
[42:37] Yeah, I guess that would have been nice.
[42:43] Okay, so it would have been better for you if you'd had more enjoyable or intimate conversations with your parents, right?
[42:52] Yes.
[42:53] Okay, so if that's something that's missing for you, then shouldn't you want to provide that for me?
[43:04] Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of a quiet person.
[43:08] Sorry, you guess? What does that mean again? you understand that five-year-old kids can't handle variability of that kind right they can't say well i guess means 35.7 agreement right high degrees of variability for kids are completely incomprehensible you know if you say to a five-year-old you know there's a 39 chance of rain tomorrow do you know do they know what that means.
[43:32] Um no i don't think they do.
[43:37] Right so so So stop giving me all these variables, right? I guess maybe a little whatever, right? That's age inappropriate, to put it mildly.
[43:49] Yes, it would be better.
[43:51] So you said that you are just a quiet person?
[44:00] Yes.
[44:01] So do you just mime things when you're teaching your students? I don't understand, but don't you fill the whole room with your voice when you're teaching your students?
[44:11] Yes I do.
[44:13] So you understand that's a little confusing, mm-hmm, So, let me step you through the next part of parenting, Dad. How do I resolve this confusion when you say, I'm a quiet person, but you're also a public speaker?
[44:40] Well, I guess, a lot of my social energy is used up at school, and I like to unwind when I come home.
[44:57] So you care more about providing for the needs of your students than you need your children well that's a higher priority right well.
[45:06] They pay me so.
[45:09] Okay so you're following the economics and since your students pay you they're worth putting energy into, but your children don't pay you, and therefore, they get much less of your energy, right?
[45:30] Yes.
[45:31] Now, do you think that's good parenting to say, I don't spend much energy on my children because they don't pay me money? I mean, does that seem like, I mean, do you hear it yourself? Does this seem like the way to go?
[45:50] Well, you know, we, We do other stuff together Okay.
[45:58] Dad I'm really starting to get pissed off here Like, seriously, You keep ignoring My questions, Would you accept that from your students? You ask them a question and they just They go on a tangent and won't answer it, Uh, no Right, so this is more hypocrisy, right? You wouldn't accept it from other people But you do it yourself, I mean, that's kind of terrible, isn't it? To give yourself permission to do things you'd find completely unacceptable in others.
[46:55] Well. Yeah he would probably just you know um do another uh tangent or something.
[47:08] And then i would say dad you're still not answering my question, you know like i at the age of five i shouldn't have to teach you about basic politeness but basic politeness goes something like this if someone answers you asks you a question you either answer it or tell the person you're not going to answer it. You don't pretend they didn't say anything or just go on some tangent of your own. Would you agree that that's sort of basic politeness?
[47:37] Yes.
[47:38] Okay, so why are you being rude to your kid?
[47:48] Well, I guess I can.
[47:50] Right. And how dare you, how dare you say to me that I matter less to you as your child, as your son, because I don't pay you money. Why become a father then? I mean, it's a big confusion for me as a whole dad, just so you know. Like, why become a father if you don't really seem to enjoy spending time with your kids? And then you say, well, I'd enjoy spending time with you more if you paid me. I mean, that's wild. Can you imagine mom charging you 15 bucks for a hug? Or 20 bucks for a kiss or something like that? Can you imagine? She said, well, you know, I'd be more affectionate if you paid me. Wouldn't that kind of make mom a prostitute?
[48:57] Yeah, that wouldn't be very nice.
[49:03] So why do you think you have Why do you think you give yourself permission To say these absolutely horrendous things to me Like you'd have more value to me, If you paid me to be your father If you paid me If you had money, I mean, do you think that's nice to hear Given that I am five and don't have money, uh no, i mean you get that that's gonna stick in my head for the rest of my life right do you i mean do you have any idea about that kind of stuff like the stuff that you say that i'll remember for the rest of my life you're telling me that.
[49:45] Uh one second my wife is just calling me i'll be right back, Okay, I'm back.
[50:03] No problem. So, yeah, because it's interesting, Dad. I'll just tell you, like, so you're going to get old, right? And maybe you'll want me to take care of you when you get old, right? I mean, that's kind of the deal, right?
[50:15] Yeah.
[50:16] Now, do you think if I say to you, well, you know, I mean, I might be interested in taking care of you, but the problem is you can't pay me. Would you think that's reasonable?
[50:32] Sorry, can you repeat that?
[50:33] Sure. So, Dad, when you get old, you're going to want me to take care of you, right? Maybe take you in or help you with your expenses or health care or drive you to the doctor or things like that, right? Now, do you think if I were to say to you, no, I'm not going to do any of that, Dad, because you can't pay me $5,000 a month to do that? Would you think that's reasonable?
[51:06] Well, you'd get your inheritance and stuff, so I kind of would pay you.
[51:10] Yeah, but let's say for some reason you didn't have money, you know, like I don't have at the age of five. Let's say for some reason you didn't get money. Or are you saying that the only reason I would take care of you is to get a hold of your money? That you'd have to bribe me to want to take care of you? That I wouldn't do it out of any care or affection towards you I would only do it for the money Like a whore, Yeah.
[51:44] It wouldn't be very nice.
[51:48] It wouldn't be very nice You understand that that's just more fog, right? Right, I mean, if some father said to you, really good parenting is not paying attention to your five-year-old because he can't pay you for your time, would you agree with that? Or would you think that guy was kind of a monster?
[52:18] Kind of a monster.
[52:22] So you get that you're kind of being a monster, right? So, what do you, and you say you had a good childhood. Does a good childhood produce this kind of mentality?
[52:39] No.
[52:41] So, basically, Dad, all you've been doing to me is lying. Lying and lying and lying and lying and lying. Oh, you'll be able to figure it out, son, even though I haven't been able to figure it out. Oh, you should not let it bother you, though I let everything bother me. Oh, I had a great childhood, but you didn't have a great childhood. Oh, I'm just a quiet man, even though I'm a public speaker and lecturer. Next thing you're going to do is you're going to tell me, oh, I don't have time, although you probably work only 10 to 15 hours a week, right? She's going to lie to me. So do you get how much you lie, Dad?
[53:21] A lot, yeah.
[53:22] Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I was terrified to come and talk to you, Dad. Right? Because I didn't want to see just kind of what a filthy liar you are. That you just make up anything in the moment to get away with not having to answer any difficult questions or have any reasonable standards or actually be asked to pay time, care, attention and provide affection towards your children. Quick question, Dad. After this conversation, just out of curiosity, do you still give yourself a 5 out of 10?
[54:09] I'd give myself a 0.
[54:12] So the 5 out of 10 was also a what?
[54:17] A lie.
[54:18] A lie. A lie. Why do you think you lie all the time?
[54:39] Because if I tell the truth, I'll realize how miserable I am.
[54:43] Oh, not miserable. That's kind of selfish, Dad. Pretty narcissistic, in my humble opinion. Why do you lie all the time? It's not about you.
[55:00] I realize how miserable you are.
[55:01] That's right. you'd realize how miserable your laziness and indetention is making others feel, particularly your helpless children who never chose you as a father, right? You'd realize just how selfish you are, and how little love you have for the children you chose to create and keep in the house.
[55:27] Yeah, it would be like hell.
[55:29] Yeah, I'm afraid we're now not in the five or the zero, but in the minus territory, right?
[55:35] Yeah.
[55:36] So why do you have such an over-tanned raising of a heart, right? Why are you so cold that you need to be paid for any kind of love or attention.
[56:10] I don't know much about his childhood. So, I'm not really sure.
[56:21] Well, the answer would be that nobody cared for or invested in him, which is why he responds to power as a professor rather than love as a father.
[56:31] Yeah.
[56:32] We get love or we want power, which is why those who tend to be the most interested in power or obsessed with power over others tend to be those who are the least loved or the most cruelly treated as children. So dad how do we fix this i mean based upon the assumption which is valid and fair that i'm not going to become a millionaire who can pay you a hundred bucks to want to spend time with me.
[57:11] Um well I guess I should uh I should apologize to you and go to therapy.
[57:21] Yeah, see, he knows. He knows. Okay, I think we can stop there, unless you want to continue, and I just wanted to know what your thoughts, experiences, and impressions were of that role play, which was great, by the way. You did a great job.
[57:36] Thanks. Yeah, it's, he was such a, he is, I mean, he's still alive. I don't talk to him anymore, but yeah, just a really dull and not present person. To say the least. And, yeah, I think that is the fear is that it would be such a tedious and revealing conversation to have. And I sort of avoided having meaningful conversations with him even when I was in the process of...
[58:10] Well, no, you couldn't. You didn't avoid it.
[58:11] I could, yeah. Yeah, that's like saying I avoided going to Mars.
[58:15] Right?
[58:15] Yeah, and I don't think the conversation would have got... I think he might have gotten angry to i think he might have if he was in a certain mood he would have you know had some sort of rage oh you start to touch the essence.
[58:28] Of this narcissism and i of course just using.
[58:30] This an.
[58:30] Amateur term this this bottom to selfishness you start to touch the root of that oh man selfish people are so full of rage it's like the gravity well of jupiter.
[58:48] Yep yeah and i did feel like um you know sadness for for myself at that age and um yeah just like yeah a lot of a lot of rage myself too just that um, like i'm so engaged with my daughter and and so interested in what what she's doing and what she's uh thinking whatever it is i don't i don't know yet because she can't talk much but, and it's just really incomprehensible to me how he could just be so disengaged.
[59:18] Well, he's also, I mean, sorry to interrupt, but his selfish people cannot speak to children on the children's level.
[59:34] Yeah.
[59:34] Right, because that requires that they surrender their own particular thoughts, impressions, and preferences to that which is best for the children. Or the child right so um it was wild just how absolutely age inappropriate his language was, did he ever meet your daughter no okay and what um sorry if we talked about this a decade ago um what was the story of uh you not seeing him.
[1:00:10] Um no i um i stopped talking to him in 2017 and then i kind of refood and then um d food again when um i got married.
[1:00:27] Oh yeah that's like uh hey i should get back together with an ex-girlfriend and then like three days later you're like oh that was the ex part yes i remember now.
[1:00:38] Yeah yeah it was uh it was kind of it was kind of like that yeah um yeah so i stopped talking to him um just because i was so miserable um and then i started being happy again and then i talked to him again i started being miserable again so um yeah so once i got married and i didn't and my wife sort of gave me some feedback on on my parents both of them and um helped me to to defu again so.
[1:01:05] Well i mean i'm very sorry that it came to that but i can completely understand, the um can completely understand the impulse and the decision so okay so let's get back to to your daughter um she is going to meet kids who are dysfunctional she's going to meet adults who are dysfunctional i mean she's going to have to have a job and like i i'm sort of in a privileged position maybe this is the case with you as well i'm in the privileged position i don't have to have dysfunctional people in my life, but I didn't just leap into that out of nowhere. I had to work my way through the maze of dysfunctional people to get to where I am. And I assume that your daughter is going to have to, because if she's not exposed to dysfunctional people, then she's going to be exploited by them because she'll grow up without an understanding of them. Like, you know, like you have to have the virus for your immune system to recognize it and fight it, right? And so the inoculation as kids is there's going to be dysfunctional people around dysfunctional kids and adults and then they they see that and they process that and then they can avoid them as adults does that make sense.
[1:02:12] Yes. Yeah.
[1:02:14] And I think if I had to sort of go down to write the root of it, which could be correct or not. And obviously, let me know what you think. It's your life, not mine. But I think you are projecting your own isolation as a child onto your daughter. So what i mean by that is your big issue was not being pushed but being unable to have a conversation with your parents about it right.
[1:02:47] Uh yeah yeah yeah for sure.
[1:02:49] Now your daughter because you guys are close and connected and it's wonderful your daughter is going to be able to talk to you, about negative experiences she has with other kids, right?
[1:03:05] Yes.
[1:03:06] In fact, she will be eager to talk to you. She'll say, dad, dad, like this crazy thing happened, right? And you will talk for hours about these things. You're pausing there maybe you don't believe me.
[1:03:21] No no i i do.
[1:03:24] You do okay sorry i'm not trying to make sure you're on the same page okay i was having.
[1:03:30] Like a feeling like it's a nice thought to have long conversation with her about that.
[1:03:34] Now here's the amazing thing is that because, your daughter has an open line of communication with her parents i'm sure it's both you and her mother, because your daughter has an open line of communication with her parents, she will not be picked on. The reason you were pushed, if malevolence was involved, the reason you were pushed, and I don't know how bullies know this, but they do. The reason why you were pushed was because you couldn't talk to your father about it.
[1:04:08] The fact that your daughter can talk to you about what's going on socially, she will not be picked on i mean she may be excluded she may be ostracized but she's not going to be picked on or aggressed against in that way because she's going to come and talk to you and then maybe you go and talk to the kid or maybe you go and talk to the parents and that kind of stuff, right? And they know that. I don't know how they know, but that's, we don't have to know, but they do. It's body language, it's eye contact, it's posture, something like that, right? So, it will not happen. What happened to you will not happen to your daughter. I mean, I'm as close to guaranteeing this as I can guarantee anything. Her experience is not your experience, will never be your experience and if i mean and and when she does see she will see dysfunction and you will talk about it and maybe she'll experience some and maybe it'll be i don't know ostracism or something like that but you will talk about it and you will get closer and she will understand the world better and it will be a positive experience, Her childhood is nothing like yours.
[1:05:30] And it will not be a negative experience for her to have a negative experience. Because she will learn how to deal with it. She will talk it out. She will realize she's supported. She will get good advice. The only negative experience as a child fundamentally is isolation. And she's not isolated, right? Yes so because you're connected she cannot have negative experiences she can have difficult hiccups and here and there right but she cannot have negative experiences because you are connected with her your wife is connected with her and she knows that she's supported and loved and treasured and she will be listened to and she will receive good advice and, she's not at the mercy of what happens to kids who are separated from the adults and isolated which is where the predation happens, right? I mean, the lions don't go for the baby zebra that's in and around the, like in among the adults, right? It goes for the baby zebra that's separated. So don't, you know, and it's tough, right? But don't mistake her childhood for yours. It's a whole different thing.
[1:06:39] Yeah, I like what you said about negative experiences not being negative experiences because if I think about my own life, someone's like an asshole to me at work or something. I almost find it funny now. Whereas if I was closer to my childhood, it would have been to maybe like sent me reeling or something.
[1:06:56] No, no. If you were still isolated. If you didn't have anyone you could talk to about it. If you were still isolated, and of course, a lot of adults remain isolated, right? So you can go home, you can talk about it with your wife or your friends, maybe if you're close to your sister or whatever, right? But you have, at least with your wife, you can come home and talk about it, right? And you can get sympathy and feedback and compassion and all. So it's not a negative experience because it actually reinforces the quality of the relationship you have with your wife, right?
[1:07:29] Right.
[1:07:32] Right. The only negative experience is isolation. Well, and you know, I don't know, cancer and getting hit by a bus. But you know, in general, like social stuff. It doesn't matter what happens to you.
[1:07:44] It only happens what matters to you if you're isolated. Because we're social animals, right? So the purpose of corrupt people is to separate you from others. So that you, I mean, this is the whole purpose of deplatforming me. It was to separate me from others.
[1:08:04] So it is the separation and the isolation that breeds the anxiety and i think you seeing the dysfunction of your own like the dysfunction that happened in your own childhood and feeling the anxiety and stress that came with that you're saying my gosh that's going to happen to my daughter if she experiences negative things but it won't because she's close to you and, close to her mother so not only is she almost certain to never be targeted directly but also whatever dysfunction she experiences or sees will bring you guys closer together as a family so your stress was not because of the dysfunction your stress was because of the isolation and she's not isolated right and she will experience challenges because you're raising her rationally and peacefully which means she's going to bump up against other kids as you say not race rationally peacefully now just to sort of finish up here um.
[1:09:06] For me, because I have an only child, right? So for me, when I would go to a playground or a play center or a swimming pool or wherever we would be going to play, I would not let her play alone.
[1:09:24] Yes.
[1:09:24] So I wear my track pants, right? I wear my comfy socks and my grippy socks, and we go in and we play together. And then, you know, I mean, I mentioned this many years ago when we would go to play centers when my daughter was quite little. I mean, it would be my daughter and I playing and all of the kids trailing after us because not only was I an adult who was willing to play, but I was a male, which was even more rare, especially in the sort of daytime matriarchy of the phone addicts, right? And and so we'd be there playing and the kids would all want to come play with us and because i would organize these games and then my daughter would tell them i just want to play with my dad and and you know i i just told her honestly i said look i i'm gonna have a tough time saying no to these kids i mean you know and it bothered her and i i get that and sometimes she would just say that no no kids uh it's time for me to play with my dad which was good and she was stronger than me in that way but that's fine so so you you go in and you you play and because you're in there playing your daughter will not be aggressed against so you know you roll up your sleeves you get in there and you play now when your daughter gets older maybe she wants to go and play with her friends on her own that's fine because she's already got the foundation right and the the the connection remains and because the connection remains she's not going to get aggressed against again maybe ostracized from baba but so so with regards to the.
[1:10:50] The playground you just you go in and you play.
[1:10:55] And she will not be aggressed against because you're there.
[1:11:00] So you would you would play with her the whole time up until she had a strong preference to to play by herself or with her friends.
[1:11:07] That's right okay absolutely 100 i mean what am i am i going to just send my daughter i mean for me it just seemed like the saddest and loneliest thing just send my daughter to go and play what do what climb around no we we played i mean originally it was kitty games where she'd you know she'd be a lost little kitten and i'd have to rescue her and then it was dragon game she'd be a baby dragon and and then it was uh uh tag games and then it was rounders and and then it was like uh we would do this thing where we would climb around the outside of the uh, of the playground. And we'd also do, like, can we time it? How fast can we do things? And, you know, various physical challenges. And, you know, we'd play with the other kids and all of that. And yeah, I mean, as an only child, and I'm not saying your daughter is going to be an only child, but for my daughter, as an only child, we're going to just send her off to go and play on her own. That's the saddest thing. And what am I going to do there? Right? I mean, I'd much rather play than sit on the phone. It's more fun.
[1:12:06] And so when we would be in a pool, we would organize uh games like um marco polo and so on we did this smorg says which is kind of like simon says where you know uh smorg absolutely forbids children to run at the pool pretending to be frogs jumping into lava right so then all the kids would be frogs jumping into lava or you know butterflies that that flap and then get hit by an arrow and you know so it's absolutely forbidden and you know just to make jokes like that and we could we could play half like an hour just come up with crazy scenarios and have the kids act them out there's another game called colors uh and anyway so you just you just get the games going and everybody's uh really happy in those circumstances and sometimes you meet kids that you want to see again and all of that so um yeah but just uh just get in there and you know kids kids are not just supposed to be certainly when they're young they're not supposed to be just doing things on their own because they don't have the power of spontaneous self-organization at that age so yeah they need they need their parents organizing yeah.
[1:13:06] So it's somewhere between like the total free-range kid and the the latter the helicopter parenting thing it's somewhere.
[1:13:12] No no helicopter parenting helicopter parenting is when you try to prevent your kids from experiencing anything negative and hyper control them out of anxiety it's not helicopter parenting to play with your kids.
[1:13:26] No i'm saying it's somewhere in between those two.
[1:13:30] Things no like no because you're saying that one of the poles is helicopter parenting like you move when you start to play with your kids you're moving towards helicopter parenting that's not that's not what it is okay playing with your kids is just enjoying their company and enjoying um the games that's not it's not helicopter parenting to engage with your children it's helicopter parenting to be anxious and say don't do this and don't do that and and you can't do this and and and be careful and and like because of your own anxiety and and desperately wanting your kids to never experiencing to never experience anything negative. That's helicopter parenting. Playing with your kids is nothing like that. Because it's not based on anxiety, and it's not based upon hysterical overprotection.
[1:14:14] Right, right. It's enjoying their presence rather than trying to avoid negatives. Right. Right.
[1:14:20] Yeah, they call it bubble wrap parenting. Your kids always have to be encased in bubble wrap and can never experience anything negative. And honestly, that tends to be maternal, right? And there's nothing wrong with that when the kids are very little, right? They can't exactly navigate stairs themselves when they're learning how to walk. So you absolutely have to protect the kids from negative experiences and then and then not right, you know um my daughter when she learned how to ride a bike was very keen on riding her bike with no with like not touching the handlebars right it made me kind of anxious and you know anxiety is higher when you have just one kid as opposed to a bunch of backups but but of course i had to say well i i did that when i was a kid and i didn't even wear a helmet because there were no helmets when i was a kid for biking so she's better off than i am and and what am i supposed to do i'm supposed to say well no you can't do this and okay yeah you're in anxiety you can't do this you can't do that you can't do the other well then they just grow up fearful and anxious and, less fun and so it doesn't do them that much good and so i just want to say it's like as you move towards spending more time and interacting more with your kids i don't want you to have while I'm moving more towards.
[1:15:31] Helicopter parenting and so I shouldn't do it too much you cannot overplay with your children because when they want to stop playing they'll tell you right, if they're tired of the one in apps like daddy I'm tired of the one in app or whatever right and so you can't overplay with your children I mean when you're having fun with your wife do you want to tap out.
[1:15:58] Can you have too much time with your wife? No. I mean, not really. I mean, I went this morning to go and work more on my novel, and then my wife joined me at the cafe, and we had a nice hour-long walk together, and so on. So there's times when you have to do things apart from your wife, but I don't sit there and say, oh, I'm spending too much time with my wife. So it's the same thing. It's even more true with parents, particularly when there's no sibling to play with. Our kids love to play, and you want to be the parent that they enjoy spending time with and playing. and, it's not like the more you play with them, the more you're being a neurotic helicopter parent. That's not the case. It's sort of like saying, well, the more time I want to spend with my loving wife, the closer I am to being a stalker. That's not a thing, right? That's not a thing. That's why I was sort of pushing back. It's somewhere in between complete neglect and helicopter parenting. It's not even on that continuum at all. It's like saying, where does anarcho-capitalism sit in the left-right spectrum? It's like, it's not even on the spectrum. Is it more communist or more fascist? It's like, no, it's not on that spectrum at all. If that makes sense. All right. Anything else that you wanted to mention? How's the convo been for you? Nice to talk to you again after a cozy decade.
[1:17:18] It yeah yeah it's great i appreciate it um i was curious if you do you remember this um, you told the story it was a long time ago um about how a kid at the playground said something uh mean to your daughter and then you kind of sat down with the kid and had a long conversation with with yeah i remember her um how to how do you uh how does that sort of um like you talk to the other kids and and uh well.
[1:17:47] It's funny because it was.
[1:17:48] Actually the other kid.
[1:17:49] Who wanted to talk to me uh because i think she recognized that i would be someone good to talk to about these things um so sorry what was your question.
[1:18:00] I don't know if i have a question maybe i don't know if maybe you could retell that story or um uh what what we could i could like learn from that well Well.
[1:18:11] Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, I mean, a kid said something mean to me and I, you know, sorry, to my daughter. And I put a stop to that right away. I said, that's like, no, that's not, that's not going to happen. That's not what, that's not how we talk. And then she wanted to talk to me further. And she wanted me to, so we went to a place and we talked about it. And I just said.
[1:18:33] If you say mean things, nice people won't want to spend time with you. And the only people who will want to spend time with you are other mean people. Then that's not going to be any fun for you at all.
[1:18:42] And so really work to try and be nice and be positive. And you can disagree with people and you can even get mad with people. But you just can't call them names, right? That's not fair. And that's not nice, right? And I sympathize. And, you know, you've got a very passionate, you know, strong, what do they call it? Strong emotions. Strong emotions. Strong feelings. I think feelings is more age appropriate. I think you've got strong feelings and I think that's great. And you've got to, you know, it's like having a horse that runs really fast. You've got to figure out how to ride it well. And so, yeah, we had a good conversation about it.
[1:19:12] And, of course, it's not like that's some magic wand that can fix all of these problems. But I think she appreciated it in the moment. And I think that certainly helped improve things for a while. But, again, if there's something going on at home, that's going to generally undermine that as a whole. But, yeah, if you see something mean, it's just like, no, that's not going to happen. That's not how we're going to do it. That's not a thing. and then um you know if the kid wants to talk i mean i was i was happy to talk and then i also talked to the parents uh but yeah that's you know your kids have to see that that that's that's not that's not going to happen right and and it may not be that you have any control of the situation it may be that you have to leave the park right which is fine but it's not like you're running away right i mean if it's a forest fire or whatever it is isn't you you're not running away because you're a coward just so uh but but then you have good conversations uh with your kid about how did you experience it? Why do you think that happened? And what are your thoughts? And you can have great conversations about all that kind of stuff and get closer thereby. So your closeness to your kids is not dependent upon the kindness of strangers.
[1:20:15] In fact, unkindness of strangers can bring you closer.
[1:20:20] Right, right. All right, well, I really appreciate it, Stefan. It was nice talking to you. We actually did speak a little bit ago with me and my wife on a private call. So it's been a bit less 10 years.
[1:20:31] But okay and how was the effect of the private call helpful and good for you guys uh.
[1:20:36] Yeah it was great um it's helped a lot and um yeah we'll probably speak with you again sometime uh soon just to iron out a couple other things but yeah it's it's been it's been great so far.
[1:20:47] Appreciate it well keep me posted about how things are going uh nice to chat with you again do give my very best wishes to your wife and i will uh stop the call here i've got a call in happening uh in a little bit i gotta get some food so my daughter's made these fantastic energy balls that i really like to snack on so all right thanks everyone so much freedom.com slash donate to help out the show to to uh really i really do appreciate that it's uh very important to me and and i dare say to philosophy so freedom.com slash donate thanks everyone so much have a beautiful afternoon we will talk to you wednesday night if not before bye.
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