Greetings, Stef. I hope this message finds you well.
I recently moved to a town where I know no one. I used to think I had my life figured out before I moved here. I find myself feeling extremely anxious and lonely most of the time. I'm trying to branch out and make friends, but it's extremely difficult for me because I have Asperger's, and having a conversation with people is a skill which I have neglected.
I have a hard time relating to most people. I feel like I need some kind of training to help me relearn how to communicate with other people. The people I meet out here are friendly, and I've made some progress, but I still feel quite lonely most of the time.
I've been thinking about it more and more lately. It didn't used to bother me before I moved because I had a few friends and family members in my old town. Now that I'm out here on my own, all I can think about is how alone I am. A big part of the reason I moved was because I want to find a woman to be my wife and start a family with, and the town I used to live in was not a good place to raise kids. Given the current state of my social skills, I'm worried that I may be unable to become a good husband and father.
The problem also involves my career. I came out here intending to start a new career because I didn't really have a career going. I think I may be able to start working in accounting, but it's going to take at least five years before I'm able to make enough money to support a family. I'm thirty-two now. I really feel like time is running out, and it's going to be at least another year before I can make any progress towards my career in accounting because I missed my opportunity this year.
I hope I've given you a good idea of what my problem looks like. There are plenty of things I haven't mentioned for the sake of brevity; hopefully we can get into greater detail if we connect and have a conversation.
0:05 - A Journey of Loneliness
0:10 - The Challenge of Making Friends
1:45 - Understanding Asperger's
3:27 - The Nature of Diagnosis
5:49 - Skills and Strategies for Communication
7:39 - Reflections on Childhood
10:35 - Discipline and Education
12:58 - The Impact of Homeschooling
14:30 - Family Dynamics and Relationships
16:34 - The Effects of Isolation
19:07 - The Struggles of Communication
22:56 - The Complexity of Emotions
25:30 - Confronting Parental Neglect
29:34 - The Role of a Father
31:15 - The Weight of Childhood Memories
36:17 - Positive Experiences with Family
39:22 - Fun Moments with Dad
42:14 - Evaluating Parental Relationships
59:07 - Confronting the Past
1:07:59 - Sibling Dynamics and Parental Relationships
1:11:48 - The Impact of Communication on Relationships
1:18:19 - Navigating Romantic Relationships
1:26:51 - Childhood Experiences of Sadness
1:30:03 - Understanding Verbal Abuse
1:41:47 - Unpacking Inner Conflicts
1:50:10 - The Challenge of Expressing Needs
1:55:02 - Embracing Enthusiasm in Relationships
2:10:20 - Moving Forward with Therapy
In this episode, we engage in a deeply introspective conversation with a caller who describes the struggles he faces in establishing connections in a new town following his recent move. The caller shares his feelings of anxiety and loneliness stemming from his experience with Asperger's, emphasizing his desire to improve his social skills and find meaningful relationships, particularly as he aspires to start a family.
We explore the impact of his childhood and how his upbringing has shaped his current social difficulties. The caller reflects on his father's behavior, revealing a turbulent dynamic marked by inconsistency and verbal criticism. As we delve into the nuances of the diagnosis of Asperger's, we discuss its implications on communication and social interactions, highlighting the distinction between behavior and potential physical brain differences.
The discussion turns to his family dynamics, particularly the relationships with his parents and siblings. The caller candidly recounts the challenges of navigating familial expectations and the resulting feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt. As he opens up about the emotional scars left by his upbringing, we discuss the importance of recognizing the difference between inherited emotional patterns and individual worth.
Through this conversation, we examine how the caller's perceptions of himself as annoying are intimately tied to his experiences of verbal abuse from his father, discussed at length. This self-perception manifests in his reluctance to express his needs or desires for fear of rejection and negativity from others, including his siblings. Our dialogue centers on unpacking the implications of his past on his current interactions, guiding him to embrace the notion that expressing his needs is essential for establishing genuine connections.
Towards the end of the call, the caller reflects on his journey and acknowledges the necessity of positive enthusiasm in relationships. We discuss the dangers of remaining suppressed in fear of negative feedback, urging him to forge ahead in seeking healing and connection. By cultivating self-compassion and recognizing his values, the caller is encouraged to take proactive steps towards building a fulfilling social life. This episode not only highlights the complexities of interpersonal relations but also serves as a potent reminder of the importance of understanding one’s emotional landscape in overcoming barriers to connection.
[0:00] I recently moved to a town where I know no one. I used to think I had my life figured out before I met here.
[0:06] I find myself feeling extremely anxious and lonely most of the time.
[0:10] Trying to branch out and make friends, but it's extremely difficult for me because I have Asperger's. And having a conversation with people is a skill which I have neglected. I have a hard time relating to most people. I feel like I need some kind of training to help me relearn how to communicate with other people. people i meet out here are friendly and i've made some progress but i still feel quite lonely most of the time i'm i've been thinking about it more and more lately didn't used to bother me before i moved out uh i moved out here because i had a few friends and family members in my old town.
[0:47] Now that i'm out here on my own all i can think about is how alone i am big part of the reason i moved was because I wanted to find a woman to be my wife and start a family with, and the town I used to live in was not a good place to raise kids. Given the current state of my social skills, I'm worried that I may be unable to become a good husband and father. The problem also involves my career. I came out here intending to start a new career because I didn't really have a career going. I think I may be able to start working in accounting, but it's going to take at least five years before I'm able to make enough money to support a family. I'm 32 now. I really feel like time is running out and it's going to be at least another year before I can make any progress towards my career in accounting because I missed my opportunity this year. I hope I've given you a good idea of what my problem looks like. There are plenty of things I haven't mentioned. For the sake of brevity, hopefully we can get into great detail.
[1:45] Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And I guess, tell me what you mean by when you say you have Asperger's. What does that mean to you?
[1:57] It's kind of difficult. It's like there's, well, first I was diagnosed with that. I suppose I should start by saying.
[2:06] But the diagnosis, as far as I understand it, and I apologize for what I don't know, which is quite a lot, but isn't the diagnosis just a description of behavior?
[2:16] Yes i mean it's not like there's.
[2:18] A brain scan that has identified some missing part or anomaly or something in your brain right.
[2:26] Correct uh it was a uh it was a result of talk therapy i expressed uh difficulty socializing there was depression of course but um the thing i was diagnosed for, I have a hard time communicating and dealing in the nuances of conversation that people usually have. Things like sarcasm or those sorts of non-verbal communications, implied situational communication. And I have a hard time dealing with that sort of thing. My brain likes to think in very concrete terms.
[3:19] Okay, so do you view the Asperger's as a physical thing in your brain?
[3:25] I'm not sure it's physical.
[3:27] I mean, you must have some thought about it, right? I mean, you say, I have Asperger's, I've been diagnosed. It sounds like a physical thing, right? Like if somebody says, I have glaucoma, you know, it's been diagnosed, and that's a physical issue with the eye, right? or somebody says, I have a tumor, or whatever it is, right? Then that's a physical thing that's high blood pressure. They may not know the cause, but they can at least measure the high blood pressure, right? So I guess what I'm trying to sort of figure out is your view of what it means to be diagnosed with Asperger's. Because it sounds like a thing that they've scanned and detected, you know, like osteoporosis or something like that, right? And the reason I'm asking, of course, that as a philosopher, there's smack all I could do about brain issues, right? So that's my curiosity, because to me, and again, I apologize for my appalling ignorance, but to me, I lack skill in the language of Japanese, right? If somebody talks to me in Japanese, I don't know what the hell is saying. That's not a brain issue. I just haven't, I didn't grow up with Japanese, and I've never really studied it, right?
[4:42] Right.
[4:43] So I'm not sure if you think that there is a brain issue, which is physical and therefore not open to philosophical alleviation, or if you lack skills, which we can try to figure that out. Is it a brain issue? My lack of knowledge in Japanese is not a brain issue. I didn't grow up with Japanese and haven't studied it. So if you lack some social skills, is it a brain issue or did you grow up without being taught those social skills and just kind of have to learn them? That's what I'm sort of trying to figure out. And again, I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but if you could help me out, I'd appreciate it.
[5:26] Well, sorry, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be unhelpful.
[5:31] No, no, you're being I'm the one who's I'm the one. Let's not both apologize to each other if there's something I don't understand about Asperger's. But it just seems to me like a description of behavior. Like if I say to someone, oh, you're kind of selfish or whatever, that's not a diagnosis. That's just my description of their behavior, if that makes sense. But sorry, go ahead.
[5:49] Right. I think whether it's a problem of the brain architecture itself or of behaviors that need to be relearned or something, I think the solution would be the same in either way.
[6:03] Well, not necessarily. Not necessarily. So for instance, if somebody's colorblind, philosophy can't fix that, right? Right.
[6:10] Right. Well, I think in my case, at least, I think the solution would be to try and learn strategies and skills that would sort of overcome the challenges I face.
[6:25] Well, did you grow up in a very social environment? Were you raised by people with good social skills who worked hard to transfer those social skills to you? I mean, that, to me, would be the first place to look. Right.
[6:41] Uh, well, um, I suppose my dad had good social skills, although I think he, he self-diagnosed himself with Asperger's as well. I don't think he was ever officially diagnosed, but, uh.
[6:54] Wait, sorry, so you have bad social, hang on, so you have bad social skills, and that's Asperger's, but your dad has good social skills, and that's also Asperger's?
[7:04] I suppose, um.
[7:06] You understand why that might be a little confusing, right?
[7:12] I guess.
[7:15] But that's why I'm asking, and I'm sorry to be hounding you, that's why I'm asking what Asperger's means to you. Like, how do you... If you're saying, well, I lack social skills because I have Asperger's, and you say, well, my dad self-diagnosed as Asperger's, and he's got good social skills, that's a little confusing, right?
[7:40] Let's just talk... Forget the Asperger's thing. let's just talk a little bit about your childhood and what it was like growing up in your world.
[7:48] Sure uh my my father my parents met um see i'm trying to omit the details here.
[7:58] Yeah you can give just no no places no names and that's that's fine you can say they met playing volleyball or something that's fine.
[8:03] Well they met at a at a nightclub.
[8:06] Okay uh.
[8:07] My father was he comes to this country from a, Mediterranean country small Mediterranean country and he Cyprus not quite but close.
[8:23] Malta, it doesn't matter okay go ahead.
[8:31] Yeah so he came to.
[8:32] Sicily no okay that's the last one I'll guess it's the last one I'll guess I apologize for that sorry go ahead.
[8:41] Uh yeah stuff like that i wish i could just i wish i could just be uh be witty like you stuff that's what i'm trying to learn um yeah um so he came to this country uh to study software engineering in the 70s i think it was and he met my mom i think he was in his 20s and my mom was like 18 when they met um yeah she was uh she was kind of uh like she grew up in a very poor working class sort of family and uh she was very impressed with him because he was this foreign guy come over here to study in software engineering and stuff what's their age gap i think they're about five or six years apart wait.
[9:25] You don't know your parents ages.
[9:26] Not off the top of my head i'd have to look it up okay.
[9:30] I mean don't you give them birthday press i mean are you in contact with them.
[9:34] Not currently ah.
[9:36] Okay okay all right sorry about that okay so go ahead they met uh.
[9:39] 18 and 20s okay yeah so um they got together and uh the 80s and uh see they had me uh in the early 90s and me i have uh i have an older brother and two younger sisters um, let's see we stayed in my old town where i was where i moved where i just moved out of um, until about the early 2000s then we moved out to because my dad hated uh the place he used to live in um all.
[10:13] Right so you're giving me the resume like we did this we moved here we went there you know, this is the age at which they met. Now, that's true of everyone. Everyone has, their parents have a certain age. They probably moved from one or two places. I'm talking about your experience as a child.
[10:31] Okay. Um.
[10:36] Let me ask you this. How were you disciplined, if you were?
[10:40] Disciplined? I was spanked a few times, I think.
[10:45] Okay. And how else? You mean a few times over the course of your whole childhood, and how else were you disciplined? I mean, you must have done things your parents didn't like or disagreed with or disapproved of, right?
[10:59] Yeah. Like, I had a lot of trouble in school, and I would... My dad did excellent in school, and he kind of never really taught me how to be a good student. And whenever I would get bad grades, he would just sort of punish me by taking things away from me.
[11:19] So your dad didn't help you with homework or teach you how to study or anything like that?
[11:24] Yeah, he was pretty negligent.
[11:27] Why do you think he didn't do that?
[11:30] I think he was more interested in the sort of things that he was interested in like his own life projects and stuff like that i think uh i think i think the reason why he wanted to get married and have kids was a big part of his culture and uh it was just not something that he personally was really interested in once he could sort of tick that off his list you know.
[11:52] No i don't quite follow so he had four kids right.
[11:55] Yeah and.
[11:57] Was he neglectful or negligent with all of his children.
[12:02] I think so.
[12:06] Okay and what was your relationship like with him when you were little.
[12:13] Um i think before the divorce um i would have i really really liked him he seemed uh seem to have very good memories of him like despite the occasional spanking or whatever and uh but after after the divorce uh things started to go badly he started to uh, be very or at least i started to notice him being very impatient and uh shouting quite a lot and uh just uh my relationship with him uh really turned bad and how old were you.
[12:49] When they divorced.
[12:50] I was, uh, 14.
[12:54] And for how long before you divorced, did you notice them not getting along?
[12:59] A couple of years. It was longer than that, though.
[13:03] You mean it was longer that they didn't get along, but you didn't notice it earlier?
[13:08] Correct.
[13:09] Okay. And... He didn't help you with your education really at all with regards to you being in school when you were younger?
[13:27] Yes. For example, there's skills you have to know to be a good student, like studying and doing that sort of stuff. It's hard for me to explain because I don't really have those things. But he just kind of never taught me those things. I think he earned a very high degree in his field, and he just never really taught me the skills necessary to be a good student. He just sort of expected me to know those things, I suppose.
[13:58] And did you not particularly care about any of your subjects? Because sometimes you can just learn how to be a good student because you care about a particular subject.
[14:07] Yeah i was uh i was very disinterested in school um especially once i was homeschooled for uh the first uh 10 years no until i was um i think 12 13 years old then uh the homeschooled yeah sorry my door is.
[14:30] Just kind of on the floor at the moment okay uh who homeschooled you your mom right.
[14:36] A mother, yes.
[14:37] Okay, so wouldn't it be your mother's job to teach you study habits then?
[14:42] Yeah, I think she tried to, but she was never a very good student either. Like, she, you know, she was a mother. She kind of, she didn't really do the disciplining stuff. She wasn't very good at it. So, like, it was a problem of keeping the kids on track. You know, it's just...
[15:04] Sorry, she homeschooled. Sorry to interrupt. She homeschooled four children?
[15:08] Yes.
[15:09] And were you guys part of any larger homeschooling community?
[15:12] No, I don't think that sort of thing existed back then.
[15:16] No, this stuff's been around for a long time.
[15:19] No, my mom didn't know about it.
[15:21] Well, how do you know?
[15:23] We weren't really involved in any of that stuff.
[15:26] That doesn't mean your mom didn't know about it. It just meant that she either didn't know about it or knew about it and chose not to, or chose not to even bother looking into it. Were you guys in the country? were you in the city where did you live.
[15:37] We were in uh suburbs outside of the city.
[15:42] Okay were there any other kids around during the day or were you like the only homeschool kids around i.
[15:47] Think we were the only homeschool kids around.
[15:48] So you grew up pretty isolated, yeah did you go out in the evenings to hang around and play with the other kids or no.
[15:59] Yeah during the day there were uh especially during summer when the kids at school had vacation there were plenty of kids in the neighborhood that we were playing with um.
[16:13] Sorry, the arm makes it sound like you've got something else to add, and I didn't want to interrupt it.
[16:18] Sorry, that's it. That was all I had to say.
[16:20] What about in the not two months, the other ten months of the year?
[16:27] Yeah, we still played with the kids who went to school after they were back from school. Right.
[16:35] Okay, so what was a typical day for you in homeschool?
[16:41] Um we would uh get up and eat breakfast and uh do our schoolwork um and uh my mom would read a book to us or.
[16:53] Something what do you mean by do your school work were you working through a book or a website or your mom taught you yeah.
[16:59] She would print out like worksheets and stuff like that we would do like math problems and uh writing comprehension i suppose.
[17:06] Right but who taught you that like you don't just hand the kids a bunch of tests or or books right you have to teach them right right so i mean did your mom teach you or just hand you.
[17:22] Papers i think she would just kind of hand us papers there weren't it wasn't any like.
[17:27] Classrooms you're there you've been gone for 12 years or 10 years right so i'm i'm trying to understand like what was like did did she did was there a whiteboard did she teach you here's how here was numbers are here's what multiplication is here's what it's doing here's how what's here's what it represents did she teach you concepts or did you just get handed some photocopies.
[17:48] Um i think we she just sort of handed us photocopies.
[17:52] You keep saying i think i don't know what that means you were there yeah.
[17:58] That's that's what i remember um.
[18:00] Okay so yeah did she I'm sure she taught you occasionally, but did she mostly not teach you or did she mostly teach you?
[18:10] Um, she, uh, she was the only one who was teaching, like my father wasn't really involved in it.
[18:20] Right. Sorry. Let me sort of be clear. I'm trying to say for homeschooling, I mean, the ideal of course is that you teach the kids something and then they practice it. Not that you just hand them stuff like workbooks to work through.
[18:32] Right.
[18:33] Because that's boring as hell. And, you know, it's hard to sort of figure things out if you're just being handed a workbook. you're supposed to teach kids, right?
[18:42] Right.
[18:43] I mean, if you're a carpenter and you want to teach your kids carpentry, you don't just hand them a whole bunch of hammers and nails and wood, right?
[18:50] Right.
[18:52] So I'm trying to figure out if you were taught.
[18:56] I was not taught in that way. What I remember, I was only just sort of handed workbooks and stuff like that.
[19:08] So so if you want some tips on on communication i'm going to give you one the vague stuff is really confusing, so i sort of and i saw so i did sort of define you can disagree with the definition of just being taught versus being just given papers right and you said well i wasn't taught in that way but that indicates that you were taught in some other kind of way that i haven't defined and you keep saying i think when it's your direct memories, okay like if somebody said to me uh were you born in ireland and i said yeah i think so that stalls communication right right, sorry and no no there's nothing to apologize for this is what you're calling me for this isn't even nothing to apologize for i'm just trying to help you along here so i guess my question is, why are your direct memories vague and conditional?
[20:11] And I'm not, it's not a criticism. Like what's wrong with saying, yeah, my mother didn't teach me very much or I was rarely taught. Because again, if I say, well, you taught it, you just handed papers. And I said, well, and I said, you know, you've got to, you've got to instruct people on concepts and what numbers mean and what the multiplication is doing. And you say, well, I wasn't taught in that way. Then that's fine. But then you can say, but I was taught another way. My mother taught me division with interpretive dance or like, you know, something like that. right so i keep getting these fog banks in our communication that is tough to navigate, right and it's not a criticism i'm just trying to understand i'm trying to understand if you genuinely don't remember how you were taught for a decade or if there's some other reason why it's kind of vague and confusing and sort of contradictory.
[21:03] Right i'm sorry this is.
[21:05] No no again this isn't this i i'm gonna be fierce with you don't have anything to apologize for i'm just genuinely striving to understand i mean do do you not remember whether your mother taught you for 10 years.
[21:17] Yes i do okay.
[21:20] So did she mostly hand you papers or did she teach you.
[21:23] She mostly handed me papers.
[21:26] Okay so she didn't teach you in any way She mostly just handed you papers. Is that right?
[21:32] Yes.
[21:33] Okay. So what was hard about saying that to you? And again, it's not a criticism. What was hard about saying, because, you know, we've been spending 10 minutes thrashing around just trying to get a basic answer, right? And that's going to make communication difficult for you, for people, because people have a certain amount of efficiency that they want to get out of communications. And if it's really convoluted and confusing and contradictory, people will just generally give up. I don't do that because, you know, that's what we're calling for. So I'm trying to figure out why it's tough to say I was mostly not taught by my mom. She mostly handed me papers.
[22:15] Uh, not really sure why it was tough to say that.
[22:20] Well, do you have an emotion about that? Or maybe it's complicated because you have a wonderful teacher and one of your older siblings or something like that, or maybe there was a neighbor or a tutor or something else, right? But none of that would still relate to your mom, right?
[22:34] Right.
[22:34] So why is it, why is it tough to answer? And I say this with sympathy, I really do. Like, why is it tough? Why do you want to hedge things? Why do you want to give yourself an out? Or why is it hard to just answer directly?
[22:56] I guess I'm just not very good at communicating.
[23:00] No, no, that's a cop out, right? That's a cop out. That doesn't answer anything. Because we're born being good at communicating, right? I mean, babies are very good at communicating. They communicate when they're happy, they communicate when they're hungry, they communicate when they're tired, they communicate when they have their diaper full, right? I mean, babies are very good. We couldn't survive as a species if we weren't born being good at communicating, right? So, let me ask you this. It sounds to me, I don't want to project my experience onto yours, but it sounds to me ungodly boring to basically just sit at home with a stack of papers and work through them. okay so it was really boring um what does your sibling have you talked to your siblings or what was your impression of how they experienced homeschooling in the way that your mom did it or kind of didn't do it just handing you some papers were they bored as well or did they seem to enjoy it more or how did they do i.
[24:08] Haven't really talked to them about.
[24:09] No no you were there you were there you weren't locked in different rooms were you, no okay so this is another thing where I'm like what was your experience like how did your how did your siblings experience it this is another area where I'm trying to figure out why it's like trying to get direct answers it's like trying to push two opposing magnets together, right so when you were, doing the homeschooling for 10 years or whatever did your siblings appear bored did they enjoy it or how did it work for them Um.
[24:42] From what I can remember, they, uh, they seemed bored as well. A lot of them weren't doing well.
[24:49] Okay. So you put another caveat in from what I, you know what it's like? It's like, it's like I'm interrogating someone who thinks they're going to go to jail. I'm serious about this, right? Because I say, well, what do you remember? And then you say, from what I remember, which is something that somebody on the stand says when they're concerned about perjury, if that makes sense. Like, you're very cautious in your responses. Does that make sense? So when I say, what do you remember, and then you put the caveat in from what I remember, that's an excess of caution. Does that make sense?
[25:30] Yes.
[25:32] So when you and your siblings were bored out of your gourd, sitting there scratching your way through endless mountains of paper, did any of you say to your mom this is not very interesting can we do something more fun or engaging or, okay and um why not and i say why not not in any critical way i'm i'm just just curious um.
[26:08] I mean, we didn't criticize it like that. I suppose we were just kids, you know, we were just, I suppose we were just bored.
[26:21] Well, I didn't say anything about criticize. It's just honest, isn't it?
[26:29] Yeah.
[26:30] I mean, you spent 10 years, for the most part, being bored. and if you don't say to your mom i'm bored then you're falsifying the relationship you're lying by omission does that make sense.
[26:45] Yes i should uh i should clarify something i misspoke earlier it wasn't 10 years that we were homeschooled it was only uh maybe two or three.
[26:55] Oh what sorry i thought it was till you were like 13 or 14 until i thought since a lot of kids start their education at around sort of three or four uh obviously so what happened um.
[27:09] So i i was uh i was in kindergarten in a in a private school and that didn't go well and uh so we were my mom my mom didn't like how it was being run so we were uh we were pulled out of that and uh she homeschooled us for maybe two or three years after that and then that wasn't going well either so we ended up going to a different private school after that.
[27:33] Okay so i'm just curious why when i've been talking about 10 years for the last 10 or 15 minutes you didn't correct me sorry.
[27:44] I've been meaning to find a good place to interject here.
[27:47] Well no that what do you mean finding a good place i've actually given you pauses to answer questions i haven't been talking continually i'm sorry i'm trying to get the apology stuff you keep not listening to me right i'm really going to beg you and insist that you stop apologizing, right? Because there's not much point in me communicating with you if I keep asking for something and saying you have nothing to apologize for, and then you just keep apologizing. That's passive-aggressive, as is a lot of the stuff that you're doing, because it tells me that you're not listening to me. So I say this with affection and sympathy, but when you say I was trying to find a good place to say it, I've literally paused five or eight times to have you answer things. Because otherwise, the impression is, well, Stef, you've just been talking nonstop. You haven't taken a breath and you haven't asked for any feedback. So there was no place for me to correct you.
[28:45] I should have corrected myself earlier.
[28:48] No, and that's fine. And it's fine if you said, well, I felt nervous or I didn't want to, you know, whatever. But, you know, saying, well, I couldn't find a good place to do it, when I paused and asked you questions, you could have just said, right, because this is part of the general maze with these dead ends, right? So we've been working for 10 or 15 minutes on you being homeschooled for 10 years, and it turns out it was only for two or three years, and you were significantly bookended by school, right? So, I'm trying to figure out, see, I find this annoying, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you're doing, I'm just giving you my experience, right? So, I find this annoying, and, you know, there's a part of me that wants to give up on the communication because it's just too fucking complicated and confusing, right?
[29:34] Right.
[29:35] Right, I don't know, I can't remember, I feel, well, according to my experience, oh, by the way, I said about 10 years, but it turns out it's only two or three. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just this blind maze, right? Now, generally, it means that you are upset or angry or frustrated about something, but rather than being direct about it, and I'm not saying this is a fault of yours, I'm just saying this is usually the mechanic, right? Because this is why we're talking. Rather than being direct about it, you have an unconscious goal of recreating that frustration in me and having me throw my hands up and say, well, I mean, I can't, I don't know what's real anymore in our conversation. So, what's your history with anger or temper? You said things didn't go well in kindergarten. Was that because you had some sort of anger or temper, or was it some other reason?
[30:27] Uh, no. Um, my... Uh, with that one, I think my brother... I'm sorry. My brother, um, tried to...
[30:37] Sorry, did you just apologize again? So, you've got to...
[30:42] I'm trying, Stef.
[30:43] No, no, no. You've got to be present in the conversation. Don't give me automatic talk, right? I need you to be fully present in this conversation, which means listen and speak alertly, not with automatic. I'm sorry, this, like, I just gave you this whole thing and you couldn't say half a sentence without apologizing again. So just, you need to dredge yourself up like the Titanic and get to the surface of this conversation and be right here with me. Okay? Okay, so, sorry, you were saying something happened with your brother in kindergarten?
[31:15] Yes my brother uh he was having uh he was a very he's a very energetic uh person he's he's very dynamic and he was he was bored in the situation uh he would be he would finish his school work early and he would get up and uh just go play around in the classroom and go look at things and stuff like that and he would uh and so the uh the the uh the school counselor had a had a uh sort of a session with him i suppose and that was apparently against my mother's uh wishes she didn't want that to happen and so sorry i don't know what a session means, yeah she like a talk session with him um i don't know what i'm going either.
[32:00] I understand they were talking, but I don't know what a talk session means.
[32:05] I i don't know all the details on this one i'm not trying to be vague um this is i'm i learned this from my mother you know years later she said uh she said that the the school counselor, examined him or uh uh talked with him or something like that i said i i i think the uh, i think what she said was uh she was trying to figure out if he had adhd or something like that Oh.
[32:33] So that was like an evaluation or a quasi-diagnosis?
[32:37] Yeah.
[32:38] Okay, that's more clear to me than a talk session. Okay, got it. I thought a talk session might be a criticism or a reproof, like you've got to sit in your chair, kid, or something like that. Okay, so the counselor was from the school. Was it counselor or the principal?
[32:54] The counselor.
[32:55] The counselor. Okay, so this could be somebody who had some capacity to diagnose. So they were maybe trying to diagnose your brother. Is that right?
[33:04] Yes. And my mother was very unhappy about that. So she pulled us out of this school. Okay. And she decided to try and homeschool us.
[33:17] Oh, fantastic. So your mother knew that you guys, or at least your brother, and we can assume by implication the other siblings, were bored and restless in school and needed stimulation. yes okay so then why the fuck would she just hand you stacks of paper, My kids are easily bored and need a lot of stimulation, so I'll just give them some photocopies and tell them to go to it.
[33:47] Yeah. Not great. I think initially my father agreed to be part of it, but then he never ended up being part of it. You know, part of the education.
[34:02] Okay. So you did that for a couple of years and then you went back to school, right?
[34:07] Yeah that was that was when we moved to a different state and uh there was another there was another private school uh opportunity that we could be sent to and so we were put there because my dad wasn't uh my dad wasn't uh happy with the results of the homeschooling.
[34:26] Right and so like he must have been making some pretty good did your mother no your mother wasn't working she was homeschooling i mean your dad must have been making some pretty good money to send four kids to private school.
[34:37] It was pretty successful, yes.
[34:39] Right, okay. And you said you have good memories of your father when you were younger, and what are those good memories, if you can give me some examples of the positive stuff?
[34:52] It was, he wasn't, he's always been kind of impatient and kind of, sorry, he's always been impatient and, stern, I suppose.
[35:06] Sorry, did you not hear what I was asking for?
[35:09] Yes.
[35:09] Okay, so I'm asking for the positive stuff, not his negative characteristics.
[35:14] Um, he was more involved. There were more things that we would do together or that he would bring us along with.
[35:24] No, no. See, I'm asking for, this is part of the listening thing. I'm just trying to help you with communication here, right? So if you look, you said that you had positive memories of your father, and I'm not disagreeing with those, of course. I'm just curious what they were. So I said, can you give me some examples of positive interactions with your father? And then you started off with he was negative and stern and irritable or short-tempered or something like that, impatient. And then you gave me abstractions, right? So none of that is responsive to what I asked for, which is specific memories of things that you did that were fun with him, not, you know, we did stuff together, right? So just give me a couple of specific memories of things and roughly what age you were of things that you did. I mean, did you have a week-long Monopoly game that was great fun? Did he take you fishing and you chatted all day? Did you roll around with him at the park and wrestled? Just things that you did with your father that were enjoyable, because that's something you mentioned before, and I want to get a more rounded picture.
[36:18] Yeah, he took us fishing a few times. There were religious activities.
[36:24] And what was fun about that? Because you could go fishing and have a shitty time. I know that happened with my father. So what was fun about going fishing with your dad?
[36:35] The activity, I suppose. He was... I remember having good time. I remember good feelings about it, at least. I'm sorry.
[36:44] Okay. Was it about, stop apologizing. Was it about the fishing or your father?
[36:53] I suppose it was about being with my father.
[36:56] Okay, great. So what did he do that made it fun for you?
[37:13] Having a hard time answering.
[37:15] That's totally fine. If you can think of another positive memory you have with your father, that's less about the activity and more about the person.
[37:29] I don't know. It's hard to name something.
[37:34] Well, but you, and I'm not trying to catch you out here, but you did say you had positive memories with your father. So that must rest on some empirical foundation, right?
[37:51] Uh i feel, i remember i remember um, enjoying being around him more uh it's it's all very vague i don't have any hard answers for that i'm sorry.
[38:13] I'll have to give up on the apology stuff right because this is just too automatic like you just can't control it, right? It's almost like Tourette's. Okay, so can you remember one positive interaction, something really enjoyable that you did with your father as a child, or that your father did with you that wasn't just about the activity? You know, like going to an arcade, the arcade is fun, right? But something with your father that was enjoyable for you. And listen, I'm not saying you have to have a memory of this. i'm just trying to understand where the statement i had positive experiences with my father comes from just one i mean 18 years you were a kid right so just one.
[38:53] Uh when uh when i was a teenager he taught me uh he taught me uh how to he would go to the shooting range and he taught me how to shoot. It's kind of fun.
[39:13] Okay. Was the shooting range fun, or was it your father who was fun?
[39:17] He was involved in teaching me how to shoot.
[39:19] Yes, but was it fun?
[39:21] It was fun.
[39:22] Okay, and what did he do that made it fun?
[39:25] He was teaching me how to shoot.
[39:27] Okay, and how did he teach you that made it fun?
[39:32] The instruction of it?
[39:36] Okay, you're just using synonyms. Teaching and instruction are synonyms.
[39:39] Um. Is that not an answer?
[40:04] No, no, it's not an answer. So, for instance, if I was teaching my daughter about addition and subtraction, I might do it with little pieces of candy.
[40:16] Okay.
[40:17] So, teaching about addition and subtraction is not fun. But if we do it with candy, it might be fun, right? if you get to keep the candy if you get the right answer you get to keep the candy that might make it fun if that makes sense.
[40:34] Right, I suppose the activity was just the fun thing about that.
[40:47] Yeah I don't exactly know how you make shooting guns fun I mean shooting guns can be fun but I don't know how you would make the instruction of that fun you couldn't exactly say there's a robber breaking in, get him, get him you know, I mean, because that would make things a bit hasty, which would be dangerous, right? Okay, so can you remember a time with your father where and it doesn't have to be a fun, fun thing, it could have been you know, a late night walk, where you just had a great chat that was just really connected and rich and enjoyable or something like that.
[41:25] Not really, no.
[41:27] Okay, not really is another one of these vague statements. Do you remember or don't you?
[41:31] No, I don't.
[41:32] Okay, so what's wrong with saying I don't remember? Is it because your father would then say, well, I remember this one time and suddenly you're caught? Like, why is everything so vague? I mean, again, there's been another 10 minutes just trying to find out because you said you had positive experiences with your father and it's like 10-15 minutes just trying to find out what they are and we got nothing and then not really right again that puts it back into vague maybe there is right, right so why is it tough to answer.
[42:13] Not sure.
[42:15] All right. Well, we'll get there. And what about your mom? Was she fun or did she, do you have positive, rich or enjoyable memories or experiences with your mother?
[42:33] I want to say no.
[42:37] Okay. Well, listen, I'm fine with that. I mean, I get that. What about your siblings?
[42:45] Did i sorry you're asking did i have uh yeah positive fun enjoyable experiences with your siblings um well i've uh i was never all that close with my sisters um even though, good people um but uh my brother i spent a lot of time with my brother he and i were very close growing up I think, Sorry.
[43:42] I'm not sure if you're going to continue the sentence or not.
[43:48] I'm just having a hard time answering.
[43:53] Okay, but why don't you just tell me that rather than going silent? Otherwise, I have to guess. Did we get disconnected? Did you have a stroke? I mean, why don't you just say, I'm having a tough time answering that. i mean again you're asking me for sort of human communication kind of stuff right sorry the human is redundant there it's not like we're doing sign language to squirrels here um so just telling people what's going on rather than having them guess right, right so you would say what if there's this long pause and you've said something like you're about to say something else and there's like a five second pause what would you say.
[44:37] I have a hard time thinking of something to say.
[44:42] No, that's not true at all. Because the moment that I said, what's going on, you said, I'm having a tough time answering this, right? You knew that right away. Is that fair?
[44:51] Yes.
[44:51] Okay. So you do know exactly what's going on. You're just not saying it.
[44:58] Yes.
[44:59] Okay. So you just need to say it. Like nobody's a mind reader, right? Especially because this is just audio, right? So I don't know what's going on. i just know that the conversation has stalled and so you just have to tell me what's going on does that make sense yes so what's tough about saying oh you know what i'm having a tough time answering this.
[45:20] Not sure it's just uh just tough to communicate that sometimes.
[45:33] I'm not sure what you mean it's tough to say the words or it's tough to know what's going on emotionally i i don't know what that means.
[45:41] It's tough to think to say it.
[45:44] Well you were aware that you were having a tough time answering the question right yes okay so then you say i'm having a tough time answering the question it's not that complicated i mean is it.
[45:58] Um, it's, uh, it's tough to think to say that at the time. It's hard to explain exactly what my problem is. I'm sorry.
[46:08] Well, no, I'm, I'm not asking you to explain exactly what your problem is. Have I asked for that? I don't know why you're having a tough time, but if you want to get better at communication, then you have to communicate. I mean, I got a whole book on this called real-time relationships about, you know, when I said I was, I was sort of irritated. I said I was sort of irritated, right? I didn't blame you or say that, and I said this with sympathy and all of that, right? But I was telling you my experience of the call, if that makes sense.
[46:37] Yes.
[46:38] So if you're stalling out about something, you don't just sit there in silence, right? Because you're part of a conversation. So you have to say what? You have to say, I'm kind of stalling out here. I don't know why. So reframing it as you have to suddenly explain exactly what's going on to every depth of your levels of consciousness is an impossible standard. but you can at least say I'm stuck I don't know what to say next or I'm stalled out here you can say that right, so that's all I'm saying you don't have to have some big wrapped in a bow answer for everything but you can say sorry I may not apologize but you can say I don't know I'm stuck I don't know what to say next rather than just being silent, right does that make sense yeah I just have.
[47:24] A hard time i just have a hard time deciding what to say i have a hard time.
[47:29] Well stop deciding what to say be honest that's my whole point here stop manipulating me just be honest it's not complicated, you're really complicating it and i'm not i say this with sympathy because you weren't born this way so you went through a lot to to make it this convoluted right but i'm just saying be honest you, If you're stalled, you just say, I'm stalled. You know you're stalled. You knew that there was an awkward silence. You knew I'm waiting for an answer. You just say, I'm stalled. I don't know what to say next. I'm tapped out. Just be honest. It's not like trying to think about what to say next. Do you know what I mean?
[48:13] Yeah.
[48:15] It's just be honest. And in your family, and this is why I asked earlier, and listen, I say this all with affection and sympathy. I really do. Right? my intensity has nothing to do with being mad at you I really say this with great sympathy I just need to break through some of this fog so that's why I asked earlier, when you were bored at school or I mean it's tough at school for sure but when you were bored at home, why not say to your mom I'm bored this is not working for me and why did none of the kids say that, And now, I know this sounds like a criticism, like, well, why the hell wouldn't you just... But there was a reason why you didn't say to your mother or your father, I'm not happy with the service I'm being provided. Right? Because you were not happy with your father's parenting, as far as I understand it, and you were not happy with your mother's parenting, as far as I can understand it. but you couldn't say that, or you felt you couldn't say that. And this is why your conversations are so complicated and oblique, because your parents would have punished you in some way I can't even comprehend, if you were direct and honest with them.
[49:44] So what did your dad do when he came home from work on a weekday?
[49:52] He would eat dinner with us, and then he would usually watch TV or deal with some kind of other work thing or project.
[50:10] Okay, so if he was watching TV and you said, hey, Dad, shouldn't you be doing some parenting here? I mean, you know, we're actual bipedal human children. We can't raise ourselves. Like, how about you do something with your kids? Is there something wrong? Why not? What would he say?
[50:34] I never, that conversation came up.
[50:38] No, what would he say? I know this is a theoretical conversation. You don't have to tell me that, right? I know I'm not talking to your father and neither are you. The theoretical, what would he say in your mind? if you said something like that?
[50:50] He would probably be annoyed.
[50:52] Okay, let's do it. Okay, so you pretend to be your dad, and I'll pretend to be you as a kid, all right? Are you ready? Dad, can you turn off the TV for a second? Okay, thanks. I appreciate that. So, Dad, you kind of come home, like you're gone all day, you kind of come home, and you really don't interact with your kids. Like, this is not good. You know, you've got a bunch of kids And you really don't Do much parenting And I'm trying to sort of figure out why Because, I mean, I would really like To have a better relationship with you I'd really like for us to do Stuff together, like, what's going on?
[51:46] Thank you. I'm, uh, I'm tired from work. I don't really, I don't really, uh, uh, how to talk about this.
[52:08] Well, I mean, if you didn't want to talk about things with your kids, you ought to, or always have the option to not have kids. And, you know, sometimes you wake me up in the morning to go to school and I say, I'm tired. And what do you say?
[52:21] Doesn't matter. you've got to get up and go to school, right? So, if I don't get the excuse at sort of eight or nine years of age that I'm tired, right, I'm not asking you to go to school for six or seven hours. I'm just asking you to spend an hour maybe playing a board game with your kids, or maybe asking us how we're doing, or checking up on our homework, or going to throw the ball around in the park, or, you know, just do some parenting, for God's sakes, right? I mean, I'm tired. I don't, if you're tired, then don't have four kids, but you have four kids. So you go to work, even though you're tired, but you can't parent? Why are we so less important that you can just veg out in front of the TV rather than do some parenting? What does I'm tired mean? Also, I don't think you get a lot of energy just vegging out in front of the TV, so maybe you're tired because you're not parenting. I'm trying to sort of figure this out, why I'm tired is therefore I never have to parent. And that puts, obviously, that puts an unfair burden on mom, but are we just supposed to raise, what is a father supposed to do? Are we just supposed to raise ourselves? Like, I don't understand what your theory of being a father is. If you could help me out, like, I really would understand it, but I don't think being a father is sitting like a lump on the couch and watching TV all night.
[53:45] Yes uh you're right, um i'm sorry i don't know where else you want me to go with this.
[53:57] I'm sorry i'm not sure if you're role-playing your father or talking to me.
[54:00] I'm talking i'm i'm just.
[54:02] Oh you flipped out of the role play right yeah okay so then i would say okay so You have been doing the wrong thing for the last half decade of coming home and not interacting with your kids, right? Is that what you're saying, Dad?
[54:17] Yes.
[54:18] So why have you been doing that if you know it's the wrong thing to do? Because that's pretty bad, isn't it? To abandon your responsibilities as a father and as a parent to watch TV and do whatever hobbies you're doing in the garage or the basement. Like, why would you do the wrong thing for like more than half a decade? I mean, no, you know what's coming on for 10 years. I got older siblings coming on for a full decade now, but you haven't really done much with your kids. So what the hell? Like, it's just now you're like, oh yeah, that's the wrong thing. I'm sorry. What does that mean? Does that mean that you've been sitting there thinking, oh, I really should do some parenting, but instead I'm watching TV for like 10 years. Like, what does that mean? The hell have you been doing?
[55:06] Um, yeah. not sure how he would respond to that that uh that line of argument.
[55:19] Okay i'll i'll kick it up a notch then so dad why are you such a lazy father lazy father, you come home you don't spend any time with your kids you don't help us with our homework You've never taught me how to study. You sit with your stupid projects, vegging in front of the television. What is the matter with you? This is ridiculous. It's outrageous. You're a father. You chose to have four children, and you spend almost no time with us and put almost no investment into us. And what's going on with your marriage? Dad, why are you such a log? Why are you, like, inanimate?
[56:09] Uh, I can't even imagine saying that to him when I was a kid. He'd probably just start screaming at me.
[56:15] Okay. So now we get to the screaming. So that's what's going on. So why do you think your dad would scream at you?
[56:21] Or challenging him.
[56:23] Okay. So let's say, what would he say? Like, let's really play this out. Again, I know it's an unlikely scenario and I'm certainly not blaming you for not saying this as a kid. So what would he say? What would he say? You don't have to physically scream, right? But what would he say in response to the, the, the, the, the, the just charge that he's a lazy dad?
[56:40] Oh, he would probably, he would probably say, uh, I can't say that to him. He's my father.
[56:46] That acts like one. You want to get the respect due to a father, do more than sit in front of the goddamn television. To be a father is to parent, not to be a sperm donor. So parent and you'll get respect, but don't ask for respect if you're not willing to actually be a parent.
[57:07] You don't get this label and all the respect that comes with it without doing the work and doing the work means being a parent when was the last time dad that you checked up on my homework when was the last time you knew what the hell i was doing in school when was the last time you asked me how my friendships were going when was the last time you asked me how i was doing in life? When was the last time you gave me a single shred of advice or showed the slightest interest in anything happening outside the square of the TV screen? When did you last parent me, dad? You tell me that, I'll tell you how much respect you're owed. So I'm happy to listen. When was the last time you and I spent quality time together with you transferring some of your knowledge and wisdom to me or giving a rat's ass about what's going on in my life? Do you know if I like girls? Do you know if I'm being bullied? Do you know if I'm having trouble with any of my friends? Do you know which courses I'm doing well and badly and ahead of time? What do you know about me? What are you doing as father? Sorry, go ahead, Dad, I interrupted you. My apologies.
[58:16] Right stuff i uh i challenged him on all this stuff oh well i said almost exactly all that same stuff to him uh in 2018 uh yeah that was that was pretty much the last time we spoke.
[58:31] Okay and what did he say.
[58:32] Uh it's the same thing he was uh just deflected blame uh yeah, yeah I just tried to he never apologized that's what I should say he just never accepted responsibility.
[58:56] And what about your mom?
[59:07] My mom, I just challenged her I just confronted her last year, same same story just refused to accept blame and we haven't spoken since.
[59:33] And what's your relationship like with your siblings at the moment?
[59:39] I just had a phone call with my sister on Thursday. She's really nice. My other sister, we've been a bit distant, unfortunately. I'm going to try and call her. This month is her birthday. So I'm going to try and call her again. But I play video games with my brother over the internet. and uh we're not as close as we used to be but we're still we're still somewhat close.
[1:00:08] And what does what do they think of what's happened with your mother and father.
[1:00:13] They are uh, well my sisters haven't my sisters haven't asked me about it like that they haven't asked me about the nature of my relationship with them uh sorry did.
[1:00:26] They know that you you haven't talked to your dad since 2018 is that right.
[1:00:29] Yes okay.
[1:00:30] So they've not asked you about this in the last six years.
[1:00:37] Uh no they haven't.
[1:00:40] Do they know about it.
[1:00:41] At the time uh yes they we yes the answer is yes uh sorry how is it how.
[1:00:48] Is it that they would know at the time but not since.
[1:00:50] I was about to say something else sorry the answer the answer is uh yes they they know about it because at the time in 2018 he was uh he was visiting the the town where we were at um and uh we all sort of challenged him individually we all it was all just unplanned we all just confronted him all at the same time like when he was there uh and uh and we all met up and sort of uh talked about it after the fact and it was kind of a funny coincidence um but yeah we all we all uh challenged him about it. Some of them have tried to repair their relationship with him, my dad. I'd be willing to try and repair my relationship with my dad, but he needs to be the one to apologize to me.
[1:01:41] But your sisters have not talked to you, and do they know that, sorry, have you stopped talking to your mother or no?
[1:01:47] I have stopped talking to my mother, yes.
[1:01:48] That was last year?
[1:01:50] Yes.
[1:01:51] When last year?
[1:01:55] September last year.
[1:01:57] Okay, so a year and change. Okay. And do your sisters know about that?
[1:02:03] Yes.
[1:02:05] And they've not mentioned anything?
[1:02:07] No.
[1:02:08] And how do they know?
[1:02:11] Um, I did tell them that, uh, I was not on good terms with my mother anymore.
[1:02:20] And did they ask why, or did they inquire deeper?
[1:02:25] No.
[1:02:28] And your brother, does he knows about these two incidents?
[1:02:32] Yes.
[1:02:33] And what does he say?
[1:02:35] He uh yeah he and I have had a conversation about um the uh the trouble with my mother between me and my mother and uh he um, he still has a relationship with her he still still um yeah he uh he doesn't know.
[1:03:01] You've had one conversation over the last 14 months with your brother about what happened with your mother yes why do you think how long did that conversation last about that topic not the conversation as a whole but about that topic.
[1:03:14] That topic um i'd say was about a half hour talked about it.
[1:03:22] Okay so you broke with your last parent 14 or 15 months ago 14 months ago and, you've had one half hour conversation with one of your siblings about that since, yes, why do you think they don't care.
[1:03:48] I'm not sure.
[1:03:50] Did I ask if you were sure? This is part of the active listening thing. Respond to what I'm asking. I said, why do you think, not what are you sure of? You must have some theory as to why they appear to be completely uninterested in you breaking with your parents, which is a very big deal. I mean, my daughter has trouble at work. I'll sit there for four hours and talk with her about it.
[1:04:20] We're all bad at communicating.
[1:04:22] No that's a that's a tautology why don't they care well they're bad at communicating that doesn't answer anything, because that's a symptom that's not a cause.
[1:04:37] I'm not sure what to say.
[1:04:41] Okay so that's, you must have thought that they don't ask, right?
[1:04:50] Yes.
[1:04:50] And when people act in a certain way, and I assume it's painful for you or upsetting for you, that they don't ask about what's going on.
[1:05:02] Yes.
[1:05:03] Okay. So when people we care about do things that hurt us, we come up with reasons why. We can't just have incomprehensible pain in our life, right?
[1:05:15] Yeah.
[1:05:16] You know, if we pat a dog in the wrong way and the dog turns around and growls at us, we say, oh, well, the dog didn't like being patted there and turned, so I'll just won't pat. Like, we don't just randomly behave and bad things happen and we don't try and come up with some causality, right? right so at some point in your mind you must have an answer and whether that answer is true or false i don't know and we don't we won't know for sure because they're not on the line and even if they were they may not be honest or direct but why do you think they haven't asked you i mean how often do you play video games with your brother once.
[1:05:55] Or twice a week here.
[1:05:56] For how long.
[1:05:57] Maybe an hour or two.
[1:06:01] Okay so for a couple of hours a week you're playing video games with your brother, right yes so let's say four hours a week a couple of weeks off you know give or take 200 hours plus uh two, more uh so sorry 40 oh gosh i'm sorry i got my i got my brain uh messed up okay so uh um, a couple of hours a week times 52, let's say 150 hours round up to 100, so 170 hours you've been on the line with your brother and he spent precisely, about 0.6% of that time asking you about what's going on with your mother, right?
[1:06:49] Yes.
[1:06:49] So why do you think he's massively more interested in the video games than your life?
[1:07:07] I don't know.
[1:07:08] Okay did i ask you whether you knew see this is part of this active listening, did i ask you if you knew or did i say why do you think what's your theory you have a theory right, because everything that happens to us particularly emotionally impactful stuff, an explanation is provided in our unconscious right if children are neglected by their parents they have to come up with a theory as to why they're neglected by their parents, and what do kids always say when they're little about why they're neglected by their parents, they say i'm not interesting, right right everybody comes up with theories about why they're treated well or badly.
[1:08:00] Our brains do that as certainly as we dream at night. So I'm asking you, what theories has your brain come up with as to why your siblings don't care that you've broken with both parents, or don't show any evidence of caring?
[1:08:28] I really, really don't have an explanation. No, you do.
[1:08:39] You do have an explanation. You might not be conscious of it, but you absolutely do.
[1:08:49] They're just not that interested in me.
[1:08:52] Okay. Now, That's one layer. So then the question is, why are they not interested in you? Is it fair to say that siblings are supposed to be interested in each other?
[1:09:08] Yes.
[1:09:08] Okay. So if they're supposed to be interested in each other, but they're not interested in you, why not? What's the reason behind that? And there's really only one of two options. Either A, they are cold, alienated, unfeeling people. Well, I guess there's three. Either they're cold, alienated, unfeeling people. Or two, they do care, but they refuse to or avoid expressing it. Or three, they do care, but you're absolutely uninteresting.
[1:09:51] You know, if somebody said to me, well, why haven't you learned Esperanto? I was like, well, because I find it supremely uninteresting. Why, Stef, why haven't you learned how to become a mime? It's like, because I find that supremely uninteresting, right? So why don't they care about you? Because they find you supremely uninteresting, or because they really do care, but they just refuse to or are avoiding expressing it. Or it's not that you're uninteresting, it's that they're cold, selfish people who are too they have their head up their ass too much to care about anybody else because they're too narcissistic or something like that there's a theory right there has to be some reason as to why these people who claim to care about you don't manifest it and they don't extend the simple decency the simple affection of saying gosh that's got to be tough how are you doing.
[1:10:40] Well um our parents were very selfish people so i suppose they uh they are as well.
[1:10:49] Okay, so your siblings are selfish like your parents, is that right?
[1:10:53] I think so, yes.
[1:10:55] Okay, so why would you be in touch with your siblings if they're selfish like your parents and you're not in touch with your parents? And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't be in touch with your siblings, I'm just curious as to why.
[1:11:08] I don't really have anyone else.
[1:11:10] Well, but that's, if you're surrounded by selfish people, they act as a Praetorian guard to keep kind people away. Because when kind people see you surrounded by and appeasing selfish people, they're like, well, good luck with that, but I can't live in that world.
[1:11:27] I don't live in the same state as them. Yeah?
[1:11:32] Do you think I meant that they were physically surrounding you?
[1:11:35] I'm sorry. This is part of my problem here.
[1:11:40] No, it's not a problem. It's just defensiveness. You're reducing things to mere physicality because you want to avoid the emotional reality.
[1:11:48] Yes.
[1:11:49] If you're happy to have selfish people who don't care about you, if you're happy to have them in your life, what does that say to everyone else around you?
[1:12:11] It says that I'm a selfish person.
[1:12:14] Okay. I'm happy to hear that. how does that work.
[1:12:19] They're like them.
[1:12:24] Well no because you identify your parents as selfish and you're not and you don't have them in your life so you have a standard called don't have selfish people in your life right yes okay, so you're not selfish like them because you have identified that in your parents and have rejected that right, It says that you're desperate.
[1:12:51] Okay.
[1:12:52] Right? That you're isolated and that, you know, it's kind of like when I was working up north and I was working with a friend of mine and he decided to drink. He was so thirsty and we didn't have any water and he decided to drink from some moose tracks, because he was that desperate, right? so it says that you have a standard called don't be selfish you have people that you're identifying as selfish in your life but you won't talk to them about it you won't confront them about it and that's because that's the best you can do and you don't want to rock the boat and you'd rather have selfish people around you than actually make the trek to having good people around you, Yes. And what's your dating history?
[1:13:50] I dated a couple of girls in high school. There was, like, I dated one girl a few years ago. Not much other than that.
[1:14:03] Okay, and how long did you date the girl a few years ago?
[1:14:07] Just a couple of dates.
[1:14:11] Okay, and what's the longest relationship that you've had?
[1:14:14] Never really had a relationship.
[1:14:17] So what do you do about, I mean, physical sexual needs?
[1:14:21] I do watch porn.
[1:14:23] Right, okay. And you're how old again?
[1:14:29] 32.
[1:14:30] 32, okay. So why do you think you haven't dated?
[1:14:39] Uh well um, i haven't felt like i was uh ready to pursue women, um i just my career was never in a good place i've been trying to but it's it's never really gone anywhere oh come on come as a teenager you can't.
[1:15:01] You kind of thought well i can't date much because my career isn't a good place when you're 16 or 17 years old.
[1:15:06] Well when i was a teenager i did date a couple of girls um they were both just i asked what.
[1:15:13] Your longest relationship was and you said just a couple of dates.
[1:15:15] Yes so.
[1:15:19] You didn't really have a relationship correct okay so why didn't you have why didn't you pursue a relationship, From your mid-teens onwards. I mean, you know, it's been 17 years, right?
[1:15:35] Right. The two girls I dated when I was in high school were very bad, very toxic, and I was wondering why is it that those were the girls that I was involved with? So I figured it must be. Sorry, did you pursue the girls? Yes.
[1:15:53] Okay, so you was involved with, you pursued the girls, right?
[1:15:58] Yes.
[1:15:59] So... Why do you think, tell me a little bit about what was toxic about them.
[1:16:04] They were in very unhealthy situations. Like one of them was bipolar and the other one, I think she brought me back to her house on the first date. And apparently her parents were cool with that. So it was just really weird vibes. I decided not to get involved.
[1:16:25] Sorry, brought you back, you mean for sex?
[1:16:28] Yeah. and.
[1:16:30] How old were you and her.
[1:16:31] We were uh i think we were both 17 at the time okay.
[1:16:36] So she brought you back to her parents place her place.
[1:16:41] Yes and.
[1:16:42] Your parents were cool with you guys like going upstairs and having sex.
[1:16:45] I think so i think that was okay that's a situation with her so.
[1:16:51] Why do you think you pursued those girls i.
[1:16:57] Was naive about how women were that was i didn't really understand anything about women so i just thought you know there's this there's this girl who's uh willing to talk to me so might as well pursue her like i was i barely got any attention from women when i was that age from girls when i was that age so any opportunity was sorry what maybe.
[1:17:18] It's different because you're younger than me, obviously, but, I mean, very few guys get attention from girls. That's like asking the deer to jump into your oven, so to speak, right? I mean, to use a hunting analogy, right? I mean, so, I mean, yeah, boys have to pursue girls. So why do you think you pursued such damaged girls?
[1:17:40] They were ones who said yes. They were just, like the one girl was, the first girl was, she was the sort of girl who never said no to any boy. Just to give you some idea. she was she's real sad situation but uh there was nothing i could do so ended up uh nothing happening with that one and then uh the second one i was uh i was in much better shape so i was much more physically attractive uh at the at the time of the second girl so um she was uh she was a bit more attracted to me so i decided to ask her out um.
[1:18:19] Okay so are you saying that you asked out a bunch of girls but these were the only girls who said yes no.
[1:18:26] They were kind of the only two girls that i ever asked out.
[1:18:29] Okay so we're back to this this point i'm trying to get why did you only pursue the damaged girls they.
[1:18:37] Were the only ones who were interested.
[1:18:39] No we okay we can go around the mulberry bush if you want we can do this round again so boys have to pursue girls can we agree with that to a large degree I mean there's a few what are alphas or whatever right like Paul McCartney or whatever right in his prime right but boys have to pursue girls right, right okay so why did you only pursue the crazy girls or the damaged girls say well but they're the only ones who said yes it's like well but you have to still choose who you pursue right.
[1:19:11] Yes they were they were the only ones who seemed interested I didn't want to pursue girls who didn't seem interested.
[1:19:17] Why not i mean it doesn't matter it matters whether you're interested.
[1:19:27] I didn't want to get shot down.
[1:19:29] Okay. So you decided to avoid girls with standards.
[1:19:35] Yes.
[1:19:36] Is that fair to say? Okay. So then the question is, why would you avoid girls with standards?
[1:19:47] I couldn't meet them.
[1:19:48] What do you mean you couldn't meet them? I don't know what that means.
[1:19:51] I couldn't meet the standards.
[1:19:53] Oh, you couldn't. Sorry, are you asking or telling? telling okay i still don't know if you're asking your telling because that seemed like a question mark too okay so what were the standards of the girls who had standards what were the standards that you couldn't meet.
[1:20:08] Uh it's hard to say um, standards i couldn't meet i i never really i never really had a a social group like i wasn't invited to parties or anything so i like i kind of i never really uh met a whole lot of girls.
[1:20:34] No no but you're in school come on man that's i mean you can chat with them in the cafeteria you can chat with them at the locker you can chat with them at the school dance you can i mean there's lots of ways to talk to girls i met very few of the girls that i dated in high school i met very few of them through any kind of social group, There's tons of ways to talk to girls outside of the social group or, or the parties or whatever, right?
[1:20:56] I, I didn't talk to a whole lot of girls.
[1:20:59] I understand that. So, but why not?
[1:21:04] I was shy i just.
[1:21:09] Well we're all shy i mean all guys feel like they're walking off a cliff when they're walking up to the girl that they want to ask out i mean that's that's a universal experience right yeah.
[1:21:19] I just i was uh i wasn't sure how to approach um i never.
[1:21:25] Okay really got there's tons hang on there's tons of things you've learned in life that you didn't know how to do at the beginning right i mean the video game that you play with your brother did you know how to do it well when you first started no so you learned right did you know how to use a touchscreen phone when you first got one no but you learned right right did you know how to set up a wireless printer i don't know whatever right but so not knowing how to do it i mean obviously it might be a little easier if your dad had helped you out a little bit or your mom for that matter but generally it's the man who has to help out his sons but it's not that you didn't know how to do it because there's tons of things that you didn't know how to do that you figured out how to do right so that's not the answer so why did you not approach the girls that weren't damaged that had standards that you because you know the real challenge is they might say no right right um why did you uh why did you switch to easy mode.
[1:22:27] Uh i don't remember ever having a any crushes on any of the other girls.
[1:22:33] No that's not come on come on man you're a guy i'm a guy are you telling me that the only two girls in your entire high school who were attractive were the the bipolar girl and the girl with the no boundaries parents that's a cope that's not true i'm sure that there were tons of attractive girls in your high school.
[1:22:54] There were other girls that were attractive in my high school, but I didn't, I didn't feel like I was capable of talking to them.
[1:23:02] Okay. We just go round and round here, right? Nobody feels like they're capable of talking to girls. You just got to go up and try.
[1:23:14] I didn't know that at the time.
[1:23:16] So you said, if I feel nervous about talking to a girl, I'll just avoid it.
[1:23:24] Yes. Okay.
[1:23:27] And then when a girl signaled that she was available because she really had no standards, then you were okay with that, but it didn't lead you to a relationship, right?
[1:23:35] Right.
[1:23:36] Okay. So then you have empirical evidence that the girls who are signaling interest in you are not suitable for relationships. So why did you give up after that?
[1:23:46] I didn't give up. I decided to try and make myself better. Sorry.
[1:23:52] How long was it between the two girls in high school and the girl a couple of years ago?
[1:24:02] Uh more than 10 years.
[1:24:04] Okay so did you ask girls out consistently over that 10-year period no okay did you ask any girls out over that 10-year period, so are you going to really quibble with me about giving up when you don't ask a girl out for 10 years is that where we're going to take the conversation to this pathetic level of quibbling, well i didn't give up i just stopped asking girls out for 10 years and then over the last 17 years i've asked one more girl out but i didn't give up, that's why i just need you to be present in the conversation i'm really trying to help you i'm certainly not trying to put you down does that make sense but i'm not going to get in this well i didn't give up i just only asked one other girl out in the 15 years since i was 17, that's giving up, right?
[1:24:56] Yeah.
[1:24:57] So you gave yourself an excuse and you said, well, when I'm better off, when I'm more valuable, I'll for sure ask girls out, right?
[1:25:11] Yes.
[1:25:13] But you never had any objective standard, which you could meet to start asking girls out, right?
[1:25:19] Yes.
[1:25:20] Why not? why did you avoid asking the girls out i'm gonna say basically your whole life because three is not much right right okay so why have you avoided asking girls out and again i'm just trying to get to the answer here i'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything but that's a pretty important question since it's kind of what you wrote to me about right.
[1:25:40] Yeah um well um, let's see i uh, The short answer is because I didn't want to actually pursue things that would make me happy.
[1:26:11] Well, that doesn't make much sense, does it?
[1:26:13] I have depression.
[1:26:17] Okay. Are you saying that after the second girl in high school, you've had depression for like 15 years?
[1:26:27] I've had depression since I was younger. A lot of the times I choose to do things that make me miserable.
[1:26:39] Okay. And when did you first think that you had, let's just say sadness, because depression is kind of a technical term. so when did you first feel that you had I guess an experience with chronic sadness.
[1:26:51] When I was young, I remember feeling, just poor self worth and a lot of, misery just Yeah, it has a lot to do with my parents, of course. Are you asking for a specific time?
[1:27:25] Yeah, when in your childhood did you start to experience this sort of chronic sadness?
[1:27:33] Oh, yeah, I think I have vague memories of my dad yelling and just me feeling miserable and wishing I wasn't there.
[1:27:45] Okay and i'm still okay third time lucky how old were you when you started feeling chronic sadness i'm raising my voice because i'm not getting the question through like at some point in your childhood doesn't answer anything to me it could be uh four years of age it could be 17.
[1:28:01] Um eight years old i think was.
[1:28:08] The first time i appreciate that so eight years old you started to feel some chronic sadness right yes okay great now tell me about your father uh yelling at you.
[1:28:25] Yeah um he would uh he would yell at me for uh, yeah um sorry but, I'm sorry, I, uh, have a... Can you ask the question again?
[1:28:53] Tell me about your father yelling at you. What would happen? What would be the circumstances or the provocation?
[1:29:01] Um, he would be frustrated about something, or, uh, angry at me for making a mess of something, just like little kids do, you know? And, uh, It would be, uh, he would just yell at me for it.
[1:29:20] Okay, what would he yell?
[1:29:27] Uh.
[1:29:31] Like, would he call you names, or call you stupid, or, uh, you're so selfish, or would he just yell and intimidate? Like, what would he say? Because it's the words that land as hard as the emotional intensity.
[1:29:45] Yeah sometimes he would uh sometimes he would call me pokey which is like uh means slow.
[1:29:57] Sorry it's what.
[1:29:58] Means uh slow you know oh.
[1:30:01] So he called you stupid basically.
[1:30:02] Yeah okay.
[1:30:04] And what else.
[1:30:17] Um, we'd have a, he would, uh, sometimes I would, uh, like say a bad word and he would yell at me for that. You're asking for specific things he would say. Um, he would yell at me for bad grades. I can't, I can't remember a lot of specific things. I'm trying to.
[1:30:47] Okay, but what would he say? He called you stupid. What else?
[1:31:01] I can't remember a whole lot of specific things.
[1:31:04] Okay, you're fogging up on me, bro. You said one word, and then you say, I can't remember a whole lot of specific things. Okay, how often would your father yell at you?
[1:31:15] Um uh uh, maybe once a week it all happened when I was a child I can't remember specific dates but it's just.
[1:31:35] Okay do you really think I'm asking you for specific dates from 25 years ago, stop fogging me it's so annoying, I'm asking you for general trends and then you're saying well I can't give you specific dates.
[1:31:58] I'm not sure what to say.
[1:31:59] No like if i if i said uh hey have you ever been to the have you ever been to barbados and you say well yes but i can't tell you the exact minute that we landed what the has that what's that to do with anything.
[1:32:12] Well if you're asking how many times a week he would yell at me i.
[1:32:17] Well you said once a week i mean but maybe it was more than once a week.
[1:32:22] Might have been it might have been more it might have been less it was uh somewhere.
[1:32:28] We're talking about an average, right? Now, do you know why this is also annoying? And I'm just going to be frank with you. I don't know if you remember, way back at the beginning of this conversation, I asked you, how were you disciplined if you were disciplined? And what did you say?
[1:32:46] He said, I said, I was spanked and yelled at.
[1:32:52] No, you said I was spanked a couple of times. You never mentioned the yelling. because if you had mentioned the yelling what would i have done.
[1:33:06] I'm not sure.
[1:33:07] I would have asked you about the yelling which i have to do now an hour and a half into the conversation at the time when i asked you how you were disciplined, did you remember the yelling or now.
[1:33:22] Uh i didn't think to mention it.
[1:33:23] I don't know what that means that's not answering the question. Did you remember it or no? I didn't think to mention it. It's not clear at all.
[1:33:38] I remembered it. I can't, trying to communicate. I'm really trying. It's really not easy for me. Um, I didn't know if yelling counted as discipline at the time when you asked there.
[1:34:22] I'm sorry, you've listened to my show for how long?
[1:34:26] A few years.
[1:34:27] A couple of years. You've listened to call-in shows before, right?
[1:34:30] Yes.
[1:34:31] Have you ever heard me discuss verbal abuse or being yelled at with listeners?
[1:34:37] Yes.
[1:34:37] So what bullshit are you trying to sell me here?
[1:34:40] I'm not trying to sell you.
[1:34:41] You absolutely are. You absolutely are. Because you've listened to these shows before, you know that verbal abuse is one of the worst kinds, right?
[1:34:50] Yes.
[1:34:51] And you've heard me talk to people about verbal abuse, and now you're trying to sell me that you didn't know that verbal abuse was an issue.
[1:35:03] It, uh... I forgot the answer.
[1:35:05] If you were... No, you didn't forget, because you said you thought about it, and you decided not to tell me because you didn't think it was relevant or something like that, right?
[1:35:19] I'm not sure what to say.
[1:35:24] I'm sorry did we not go through this whole tell the truth thing i mean i listen you can choose whether you can choose whether i help you or not you really can, like you can choose whether i help you or not do you know how you choose that, by telling the truth or not, if you go to the doctor and your left testicle is painful and you don't tell the doctor or the doctor says do you have any pain nope can the doctor help you, So, if you don't tell me the truth, so I ask you about, and if you listen to the show, you know all about the verbal abuse stuff. Verbal abuse is worse than physical abuse, right? You've heard me say that a million times. Because physical abuse is just a physical injury your body heals. Verbal abuse carves those letters into the soul of your entire psyche, right?
[1:36:25] Right.
[1:36:27] So, when I asked you how you were disciplined, I said, you must have done things. I remember very clearly what I said. You said, I said, you must have done things that your parents didn't like or disagreed with. Do you remember me saying that?
[1:36:41] Yes.
[1:36:42] And I said, and what happened? And you didn't mention the verbal abuse at all. Why not? Like, you're asking me how to have better relationships with people. Well, first thing to do is stop bullshitting people. Can't have a relationship if you're not upfront and honest, right? Right. And I've been going for almost an hour and a half, actually an hour 40, I've been going on, you withholding essential information from me. When you're calling me up and asking me to take my precious lifetime and help you, and you're withholding information from me. And listen, I know I'm annoyed, that's fine, I'm allowed to be annoyed, it doesn't mean you're a bad person or anything like that. But my question is why? Why waste all this time?
[1:37:34] Why would you decide for me what I need to hear specifically against what I'm asking? Like if you had a sexually transmissible disease and some woman said, do you have any sexually transmitted diseases or transmissible diseases, you wouldn't get to decide for her whether she needed to know something or not, would you? So help me understand. And you didn't even say, you didn't even have the good grace to say to me, Stef, listen, man, I don't know why, but I fudged it before. When you asked me about what happened with my parents when I did something they didn't like or disagreed with, I'm really sorry, man. I just, I fudged out. I lied. I withheld something. I'm really sorry. Like that, it's a funny thing is you apologize for everything that's not your fault, but something that is your fault, you don't seem to notice it at all. You've apologized for everything that's not your fault, but you haven't said to me, Stef, I'm sorry for wasting so much of your time because I decided to withhold from you information that you directly asked for that I'm begging for your help on.
[1:38:43] Right. I'm sorry I didn't mention that.
[1:38:47] It's more than a mention. You're minimizing it. I directly asked you, and you lied to me. and then you brought it up later without even saying actually i gotta kind of confess because that i would i would understand that more but you brought it up like you hadn't lied in the past now i don't know what that means in terms of your mind right were you aware that you were bringing up information about verbal abuse that you'd specifically denied before, um
[1:39:24] Was I aware that I brought up information?
[1:39:26] Yeah, so when you started bringing up the, I mean, honestly, when you started bringing up that your father would yell at you, you know, we did talk about screaming earlier, but that was in the theoretical that didn't happen when you were a kid, right?
[1:39:37] Right.
[1:39:37] So I did ask before how you were disciplined. What did your parents do when you did something they disagreed with? And you said you were spanked a few times and you never mentioned the verbal abuse. That's a specific lie. and and you knew it was important because you've listened to this show for years right, so when you brought it up again and you started telling me about how your father verbally abused you were you aware that you had withheld i mean had you completely forgotten that you, lied to me about that and again i'm not saying like you're some big terrible liar i'm not trying to like drop a ton of bricks on you i'm genuinely curious if you noticed that you lied about that before and you brought it up like you hadn't because that's kind of disconcerting to other people right right.
[1:40:24] I uh just just didn't uh think to say that it didn't uh come up in my mind.
[1:40:34] I don't know what you're talking about.
[1:40:35] I have a hard time thinking of things to say sometimes just.
[1:40:40] No no no okay so let's just go back so when i asked you about how you were disciplined you did think of the verbal abuse but you from what i understood you told me you thought of the verbal abuse but you decided not to tell me because you didn't think it was relevant or something like that yeah okay so if it's not relevant then why would you bring it up later and i'm not i'm not trying to be some like i don't know gestapo swinging light bulb you know yelling at you kind of thing i mean if if the verbal abuse is not relevant when i directly ask about how you were disciplined then why would you bring it up later as relevant and again i'm not trying to catch you out here i'm trying to i'm trying to follow your reasoning here.
[1:41:25] I i uh i didn't think of it at the time.
[1:41:30] No because you've told me you did think of it at the time when i asked you you told me you did think of it but you decided it wasn't relevant and therefore you withheld it from me, but then why would it come up later as relevant? That's what I'm trying to sort of follow here.
[1:41:48] And not from an accusatory standpoint, I'm genuinely curious.
[1:42:06] I don't uh i don't know how to reply i don't know how to say this.
[1:42:12] Does that mean you have a thought or a feeling you don't know how to express.
[1:42:16] Um I don't know what to say.
[1:42:31] I don't know what that means. Does that mean you have thoughts that you don't know how to express or your mind is a complete blank?
[1:42:38] I'm kind of blanking right now.
[1:42:40] Okay. So the problem is that I don't think you've done much to process the verbal abuse, which is why you hid it from me. And this is why, do you remember I said earlier, I felt sort of annoyed, right? So I think that you're stuck in a sort of situation where you're kind of recreating this verbal abuse. Now, I won't, obviously, I'm not going to call you bad or mean or a liar or anything like that. Saying that you lied about something is not condemning you as a liar, right? It happens to all of us, or we all make that choice from time to time, so I'm not going to give you that condemnation. But it's very provocative, right?
[1:43:16] Okay.
[1:43:18] Okay, you're giving me that okay, like you don't have any clue what I'm talking about, which is also very provocative.
[1:43:25] You're right, yes.
[1:43:27] Okay. So, if you withhold information from me that I'm directly asking for, in a conversation that you've asked me to set aside time for to help you with, right?
[1:43:40] Yes.
[1:43:43] If I'm supposed to be helping you study for something and you tell me that you've already studied for it, I'm going to take a particular approach. If two hours in I find out you actually haven't even opened the book, that's going to be really annoying, isn't it?
[1:43:58] Yes.
[1:44:00] So why do you think that you're doing things that are so provocative and irritating to other people? And again, I'm not calling you irritating in any foundational way, but this kind of habit is off-putting, right? You can understand that, right? And then looking at it objectively.
[1:44:19] Yes.
[1:44:23] I mean, it'd be like if someone sold you a car, right? And there was a real crack in the bottom of the car, right? And you ask, does this car ever been in an accident? Does it have any cracks? And they say no, right? And then after you buy the car and they've left the country with your money, they mention that the car has a huge crack along the bottom and they don't mention that they didn't tell you before. And then you say, well, why didn't you tell me this before? I said, well, I didn't think it was important or relevant. They wouldn't get to make that choice for you, right? And would you be annoyed at someone like that? Right. So that's all I'm saying. Like, why would you be in pursuit of trying to generate this kind of frustration or annoyance in other people? That's what I'm sort of trying to figure out.
[1:45:16] I wasn't trying to.
[1:45:17] No, no. Yeah, of course you were, right? Because you're a smart guy and you've listened to the show for a long time. So you have self-knowledge. Okay, do you want to know the answer? Because, you know, time's ticking away here. So the answer is simple, but not easy, right? So the answer is that you think that you're annoying. You think, like when I asked, why did your father yell at you, right? Do you know what the correct answer is? Because your father was an asshole. but you said well i did things that were annoying or he was impatient at me about something or i broke things you know as kid do you put the causality as to why your father yelled on something you did that's bullshit the father didn't yell at you for anything you did, that's saying you are the cause of your father's annoyance.
[1:46:07] It's not true Right You think you're annoying, And you're fulfilling that prophecy With these interactions And then you get to say, holy shit Even Stef found me annoying And he's one of the more patient guys around Oh look, prophecy fulfilled I am annoying, You see the unconscious thing here, right? Yes so why do you think, you still think you're annoying, isn't that part of what you mean by Asperger's I'm just annoying to people they don't get me they don't understand me I just rub them the wrong way I'm bad at communicating I'm blah blah blah blah blah oh that's just a big cloud of language around this core belief I'm provocative I'm annoying.
[1:46:59] Yeah uh that's how my parents treated me.
[1:47:04] Sure and they they did and i really sympathize with that brother i absolutely completely and totally sympathize with that and i can completely understand why you would come up with the conclusion called i'm annoying do you know why you had to do that as a kid.
[1:47:24] Because then you can evade your own anger. Because then you don't confront your parents, but it might be really dangerous for you to do so. Or to put it another way, the kids who didn't say, well, I guess my parents are annoyed with me because I'm annoying. If kids said, my parents are annoyed with me or pretending to be annoyed with me because they're immature assholes who take out their own frustrations on their helpless and innocent children, then you confront your parents and you call them assholes or something like that as a kid and what happened to our, species evolutionarily speaking what happened to those kids who identified their parents as the jerks how did they do evolutionarily speaking, not well not well so we've all adapted this well it's my fault i'm the problem i'm the bad guy not them, we all have to internalize it because otherwise we confront our parents and how do your parents do I mean how did your parents do over the last six years your father then your mother 2018 or five years 2018 and 2023 how did your parents do when you confronted them.
[1:48:38] They uh refused to uh apologize.
[1:48:44] Well they basically ended the relationship yeah you had reasonable standards of accountability and responsibility, which they imposed upon you as a kid right when you were a kid if you got a bad grade you were held accountable right you said they'd get mad at you your father would scream or yell at you for bad grades right, so they're very very keen on the concept of accountability for say six or seven or eight year old children they just won't accept any accountability for what they did as grown-ass adults, right? So when you had reasonable standards... For your parents, reasonable, not just objectively, but based upon the standards they imposed on you as a child, right?
[1:49:27] Right.
[1:49:27] When you held them to their own standards, what happened?
[1:49:31] They ended the relationship.
[1:49:33] They ended the relationship. They said, hey, if you're going to ask me to have even 1% moral consistency, screw you, we're done. So you couldn't have done that as a kid, right?
[1:49:44] Right.
[1:49:46] Now, you also have the same concern about your siblings. right yes so if you go to your siblings and you say guys what the hell i haven't talked to my father in six years i broke with my mother you all can't ask me anything about that like what what is up with that okay what how's that what's your fear about how that's going to play out with your siblings.
[1:50:07] It's going to go the same way as my parents.
[1:50:10] That's right so you have to say i'm uninteresting and if i express my needs i'm annoying, and this is where all this fog comes from whenever i ask you for your needs directly you're very oblique you're very foggy you're very indirect because if you express genuine and honest needs and preferences you're annoying and people are going to reject you and you'll be all alone and as a kid you're just going to die in the wilderness and get eaten by some fucking wolves, and I know that sounds like hyperbole but that's how it hits our nervous system that's our lizard brain right.
[1:50:56] So you're just not angry enough, you were treated absolutely absolutely terribly and abominably by your parents and that trickled down through your siblings, yes children are never ever ever annoying, do you know why children feel annoying children feel annoying to selfish narcissistic parents, who are only concerned with getting their own needs met and don't fundamentally recognize the emotional existence of other people with differing or opposing needs and beliefs, They don't negotiate, they just bully, Can you remember a time when you were a kid when your parents negotiated with you and or your siblings to find some solution where everyone's needs could be best met?
[1:51:58] No.
[1:51:59] Your dad's tired? He just sits like a potted plant in front of the television. How hard did your parents try and work things out so that they wouldn't get divorced? Did they go to couples counseling? Did they read books? Did they strive as hard as they possibly could to try and find a way to not get divorced?
[1:52:22] They spent a few months yelling at each other, but no, they didn't really do anything.
[1:52:29] Right. So they just had selfish needs and preferences and basically to hell with the kids, right? So you don't know what it's like for someone to take your needs and preferences into account and try to negotiate with you for a win-win solution.
[1:52:45] Right.
[1:52:45] So that means that all of your needs threaten the relationship. If you have needs, you're tossed aside like we called leftovers. So to have needs is to be rejected. and so you're in this situation where you can't have needs, with your siblings. And for you to get into a relationship with a woman will be to be a slave to her needs and to disappear into compliance on your own as you disappear in compliance with your parents, as you did in the past, and as you disappear in compliance with your siblings. so the only way that you can have any sort of consistent identity is to be alone because to be, around other people is to have to conform to their needs because your needs are just going to provoke irritation and annoyance in them how am i doing.
[1:53:51] Right yeah i think you're i think you're spot on.
[1:53:55] The idea that you could become more yourself in the presence of someone else is probably hard to picture. That somebody else would delight in hearing your needs. That's what was annoying to me, was I actually did want to hear what your needs were and what happened to you as a child. So the idea that someone would want to know your needs so that they could satisfy them and find a way to bring you happiness. The idea that there could be someone like that in your life, it's probably a little hard to figure out. And that's why it probably is more comfortable to be alone. Because what's the alternative? To disappear up the ass of some narcissist.
[1:54:55] Yeah.
[1:55:02] And so when you don't have historical relationships like as you've moved to a new town and i've moved to new towns in my life i mean i moved up to thunder bay when i was in my teens and i moved to montreal and and moved to other other places moved to nakina so i mean i know what it's kind of like being a little bit on the outside and and tapping away on the glass and and so on, but because you haven't had the experience i think of being in a relationship where you're just way better off and your needs are better met and you know more about yourself and you're happier being in a relationship it's kind of tough for you to believe in being able to provide that value because the reason why you haven't talked to your siblings and they haven't asked you, is because I imagine that none of you growing up but these terrible parents I don't imagine that any of you view your legitimate needs as anything other than an annoyance to people.
[1:56:06] Your legitimate needs is essential to have a relationship. You can't have a relationship by avoiding and conforming. Because avoidance and conformity is just manipulation. It's trying to self-erase so that you don't provoke irritation on the part of someone else. But it's saying that the only way I can be around people is to not be around myself. the only way I can break bread with people is to self-erase the only relationship I can have with others is to completely erase any relationship I have with myself, which is why pornography is better than sex because in sex you focus on mutual pleasure but with pornography you only have to think about your own pleasure yeah.
[1:57:11] So you don't have to be A rich guy To get a great woman I'm telling you that right now, Now You're a little late in the game So I'm glad you called Glad you're calling You're a little late in the game But you don't have to Be a rich guy Or an accountant Or whatever Because it's going to take you years Right? Yeah you don't have to be that way at all. Because someone can very easily and positively believe in you prior to you succeeding, and their belief in you can be why you succeed.
[1:58:09] You know, for a man to want to flash his success is like a woman wearing really skimpy clothing. Right? You want to meet a great woman and like her personality, like her thoughts, like her arguments, like her wit, her good humor, her even temper, her virtues. And then, hey, you know, I mean, if you find out she's got a great body too, so much the better, right? But you have to like her, and then a great figure is a great bonus. So I think what you're saying is, I hope that a woman can like my money enough to overlook the fact that deep down, I think I'm just annoying, or that's what I was taught. But you can't buy your way into love, and you can't bribe women into overlooking the habits of manipulation and withholding that you tragically, and I mean that genuinely tragically, developed as a survival mechanism as a child. Right.
[1:59:34] So tell me uh how i'm doing in terms of helping you see things.
[1:59:42] Uh this has been amazing i'm even worse at communicating than i thought it was.
[1:59:48] Don't do that to me no don't do that to me don't punish me for all this work don't do it man i.
[1:59:58] Mean you've shown me.
[1:59:59] Don't do it that was nasty that was really nasty.
[2:00:08] I'm not sure what you mean.
[2:00:10] I've been bending my brain trying to help you for two hours and ten minutes almost right it's been hard work, right yeah you understand i mean how many people can do this what i'm doing with you.
[2:00:33] Pretty much no one just you.
[2:00:34] I it's a fairly unique ability i've been working really hard and i ask you how i'm doing and what's really the first thing you say to me.
[2:00:52] Um you've helped me a lot.
[2:00:53] And then i.
[2:00:56] Said uh got worse problems than i thought i did.
[2:00:59] You said i'm even worse at communicating than I thought I was. Is that a statement of hope or despair?
[2:01:13] It's, uh, I meant it as a statement of hope.
[2:01:17] I'm sorry?
[2:01:18] I meant it as a statement of hope.
[2:01:21] Okay.
[2:01:21] You shed more light on them.
[2:01:22] Do you think that if after all of this work, you say, oh my God, I'm even worse off than I thought I was, and you thought you were pretty bad off at the beginning, right? So if you then say to me, oh my God, I'm even worse off than I thought I was, and at the beginning you sent me a message full of despair and disaster and relative hopelessness right and then you say after all this work you say oh my gosh i'm i'm even worse off than i thought i was do you think that that would be interpreted by any reasonable person as a statement of hope or despair a positive or a negative statement.
[2:01:57] It's a negative statement.
[2:02:00] Okay so then why would you want to hit me with a negative statement as really the second thing that you said in response to me sort of trying to give you this uh these insights oh.
[2:02:15] I meant to i meant to say um it's uh you shed a lot of light on a on the problem it's been tremendously helpful.
[2:02:26] I understand that so then why would you say i'm worse off than i thought i was, I mean, if you go to some nutritionist and you say, oh my god, I keep having these terrible bowel issues, right? And then the nutritionist says, oh, I think you're lactose intolerant. Would you then say, oh my god, I'm worse off now than I was before?
[2:02:52] That's not what I said.
[2:02:54] You said I have even more problems. I'm even worse at communicating than I thought I was.
[2:03:00] No, I meant the problem that I needed your help with was worse than I even knew. It's amazing. It's like knowing that... Okay. I'm sorry.
[2:03:20] Let me give you another analogy. So let's say that you're lost in the woods. It's cold, snowy, windy. You're lost in the woods, and you then come across a cell phone with a map on it, right? now the map shows you the way to the closest city right or the closest town, but it's a little further away than you thought, now you have two ways to interpret this information right, one is oh my god i'm further away from town than i i thought i was this is bad right right what's the other way.
[2:04:17] Thank god i have a map now.
[2:04:19] Thank god i have a map i can get to the fucking town yes And the reason I'm saying this is that if you have people who invest in time with you, and their perception is that you then feel that you're worse off, they will stop investing time with you.
[2:04:46] I should have chosen my words more carefully.
[2:04:48] No, that's saying that it was just a mischoice of words, right? I mean, to take a silly example, if I said to someone, I hate you, and they said, that's kind of mean, and I say, well, I should have just chosen my words more carefully, would that make much sense?
[2:05:08] Right.
[2:05:10] So what was happening, just so you know what was happening, what was happening was you express some gratitude towards me and then your inner parent your inner parents i'm not sure which one it was probably your father your inner parent came out to punish me for exposing the destruction they had wrought upon your soul yes so you're going to have to wrangle those inner parents a little better because they're going to push people away from you yes, because when you start to express hope and positivity or happiness what's going to happen in your mind.
[2:05:54] Uh i'm going to start pushing people away.
[2:05:57] Well okay when you were um when you were a kid or a teenager and you expressed hope and optimism and happiness and enthusiasm in front of your parents What happened?
[2:06:12] Uh...
[2:06:20] I mean, you must have done it at some point.
[2:06:23] To be honest, I can't remember a situation like that.
[2:06:26] Right. Okay, so you knew that you should never express hope and positivity and happiness and enthusiasm in front of your parents, right?
[2:06:35] Yeah.
[2:06:40] And why did you not express that, do you think? What would they do?
[2:06:47] Uh. I don't know. I can't think.
[2:06:58] Well, you must have some instinct for it because you avoided expressing any enthusiasm in front of your parents pretty much your whole life, it sounds like, which means you must have imagined some negative consequence to expressing that enthusiasm because every kid has, I mean, even the most harmed kids have enthusiasms about something, excited about something. so my guess is that if your parents were kind of negative and selfish or whatever right then if you express enthusiasm if they're also kind of dysthymic or kind of down or maybe depressed or whatever right i just use that in an amateur sense but if your parents are kind of down, how well do people who are kind of down and unhappy how do they react to genuine happy enthusiasm oh.
[2:07:48] They uh they uh try.
[2:07:51] And bring you down too yeah sorry you were saying.
[2:07:55] I said they try and bring you down too.
[2:07:57] Yeah yeah they'll like seeing other people happy right so it's not an accident that right after you express gratitude you then expressed a negative a strongly negative statement yes so you're gonna have to be careful in yourself because, it's hard to fall in love with someone who can't be enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is fuel for happy, productive people, right? So, I mean, when I met my wife, I had just had my first novel published, so I was very enthusiastic and all of that, and she was enthusiastic to read it, and right, so we've had this big enthusiasm fest for, like, almost a quarter century, right? So, being able to be enthusiastic, I mean, you know, if you ever want to find out where human nature is as a whole, go be really happy about something on the internet.
[2:08:53] Right?
[2:08:56] What happens, right? You get these incoherent German Stuka sounds coming down, right?
[2:09:04] Right.
[2:09:05] But I think if you can learn how to be enthusiastic and know that enthusiasm is going to bring danger and negativity to you because you're afraid of blowback from your parents. I mean, you were enthusiastic for some sort of reconciliation with your parents, and they just basically dropped you off a bridge, right, six years ago and last year.
[2:09:27] Yeah.
[2:09:28] So, yeah, be careful about that blowback from enthusiasm, because if somebody's enthusiastic and then you take them down with a well-placed sniper shot of negativity, they're going to recoil from being enthusiastic, and if they recoil from being enthusiastic, they can't fall in love with you, because love is just another kind of enthusiasm, right? All right, does that make sense? Did we get someplace productive and useful? Now, listen, I do really, really appreciate that you were working hard in the call. as well and i really do appreciate um the the honesty that we got to.
[2:10:04] Right that was uh amazing i can't i can't tell you how helpful it's been.
[2:10:09] Uh you can try try do it let's do it once more but without the sniper shot after okay.
[2:10:18] Uh most helpful conversation i've ever had.
[2:10:20] Beautiful see all right uh all right well um Keep me posted about how things are going. I would recommend Talk Therapy. If you can get a hold of a good therapist, I've got a whole show. You can go to fdrpodcast.com, do a search for how to find a great therapist or therapist. I think it's show 1927 or something like that. but uh i hope you keep me posted about how you're doing and i really really do, appreciate your time today you did a fantastic job and i'm really really sorry about all the burdens that were laid upon you as a kid you deserved absolutely none of it and you are not.
[2:10:57] Irritating thanks so much stuff.
[2:10:58] All right man keep me posted all the best you too bye.
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