Transcript: BUT I LOVE MY MOM! Freedomain Call In

Chapters

0:07 - Introduction to Personal Struggles
0:52 - Childhood Influences
3:52 - Relationships and Patterns
5:00 - Breaking Old Patterns
5:39 - Reflecting on Marriages
12:08 - The First Marriage Breakdown
18:20 - The Second Marriage Insights
24:32 - Understanding Parental Impact
35:55 - Mother's Role in Relationships
52:55 - Parenting Responsibilities
53:56 - Consequences of Neglect
1:01:34 - Quality Relationships Defined
1:04:04 - Current Partner's Perspective
1:05:10 - Truth About Family Dynamics
1:10:33 - Moving Forward with Honesty

Long Summary

The episode features a candid and in-depth conversation between Stefan and a caller navigating the complexities of personal relationships, particularly in the context of his past marriages, familial upbringing, and his ongoing struggles with self-identity and emotional healing. The caller, a single heterosexual male in his late 40s, reflects on his painful history marked by two failed marriages, a tumultuous family background, and coping with inner demons of anger and self-doubt that have long dictated his life choices.

The caller begins by detailing the factors that shaped his inner turmoil, including experiences from his childhood. Raised by a single mother after his father abandoned the family due to alcoholism, the caller recounts how his upbringing was characterized by a lack of emotional support and guidance. His mother's tumultuous relationship with his father led to her prioritizing survival over parenting, leaving him with the impression that he had to fend for himself emotionally from a young age. This lack of a stable parental influence forced him to retreat into himself and fabricate "false selves" to cope with feelings of inadequacy and isolation.

Throughout the discussion, the caller examines his two marriages, highlighting the common themes of loneliness and dysfunctional communication. He explains how both relationships suffered due to the unaddressed traumas from his upbringing. In the first marriage, both partners were "trying to make one not lonely person," leading to eventual dissatisfaction and separation. The second marriage, despite initially appearing healthier with better communication, deteriorated due to familial pressures and unresolved personal issues. Here, the caller reveals the painful experience of infidelity that shattered his trust and prompted a reevaluation of his choices.

Stefan probes deeper into the mechanics of the caller’s marriages, emphasizing the importance of understanding the nuanced details that led to their breakdown. The caller shares regrets about allowing external pressures and ambitions to overshadow meaningful personal connections, expressing a yearning for the authentic relationships he now recognizes as truly valuable. He acknowledges this pattern of seeking partners reflective of unresolved issues with his father, mirroring a cycle of dysfunction that he desperately wishes to break.

In discussing his current relationship, the caller describes a more hopeful dynamic with a supportive partner who possesses qualities he admires, such as kindness and selflessness. However, he also acknowledges his struggle with self-criticism and a fear of repeating past mistakes. The conversation takes a reflective turn as the caller contemplates whether he’s genuinely progressing in letting go of the anger and pain that have haunted him, or unconsciously allowing these feelings to resurface.

Amid the exploration of his relationships, Stefan provides insights into the influences of familial patterns and how they have permeated the caller's adult life. He challenges the caller to consider how much of his decision-making has been independently motivated versus shaped by the lingering effects of his upbringing. Specifically, the discussion examines how the caller’s relationships with both his parents have impacted his choices and self-perception as an adult.

Stefan addresses the complexity of the caller's relationship with his mother, critiquing her inability to provide the emotional nurturing he needed and highlighting that her focus on securing her own well-being often overshadowed the needs of her children. The caller grapples with disappointment over his mother's lack of insight regarding her poor decisions, prompting further questioning of his own narrative habits and how they have influenced his ability to forge healthy relationships.

As the episode unfolds, the caller expresses a desire to learn from his experiences and help others who may face similar inner conflicts, hinting at the possibility of using his story as a cautionary tale for younger men grappling with anger and emotional pain. The conversation culminates with the caller committing to an honest and open dialogue with his current partner about their relationship and his reflections regarding his upbringing.

Stefan offers to assist the caller in navigating this conversation, suggesting role-playing scenarios to prepare him for potentially challenging dialogues with both his partner and his mother moving forward. The episode ends on an optimistic note, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, breaking the cycle of dysfunction, and the commitment to truth as a path toward healing and authentic living.

Transcript

Caller

[0:00] I'm a heterosexual male in my late 40s, single, childless, and unfortunately married twice and divorced.

[0:07] Introduction to Personal Struggles

Caller

[0:07] I'd like to connect with you either on a public call-in or a one-to-one to get your perspective on your insights of how I can continue to let go of the pain and anger that have dictated so much of my life and move forward with hope, strength, and authenticity. For much of my life, I've struggled with inner conflict, being deeply introspective, yet incredibly hard on myself. I've carried the weight of decisions made out of fear, loneliness, and a need of validation. This pattern started early, rooted in an upbringing marked by a lack of guidance, feelings of abandonment, and the scars of my father's alcoholism and abandonment of my family.

[0:52] Childhood Influences

Caller

[0:52] Through therapy journaling and listening to your shows over the recent years i've begun to see how these experiences shaped me as a child i walled myself off from others retreating into my own imagination and crafting a number of false selves to protect myself from this pain these personas helped me navigate a world where i often felt unseen and unheard but they also left me with a, Chronic self also left me with a sense of chronic self-doubt and an enduring sense of being a fish out of water. In my teens, a diagnosis of a chronic illness added another layer of complexity. It explained many of the strange symptoms that I had experienced, but also forced me to overhaul my life plans at an age where I had already felt left behind. I've always felt like I was trying to catch up, chasing a moving target that doesn't exist. Yet despite these challenges, I've achieved a good deal of external success. I built careers in medicine, pharmaceuticals, and earned advanced degrees and developed a reputation for excellence. Ironically, I've treated patients with the same condition that I've been diagnosed with and living with for decades. But no achievement has ever truly silence the inner critic that tells me I'm not enough.

[2:18] As I reflect on how these influence of key life figures influenced my life, one of which is my uncle who shaped a lot of these choices and self-doubts. My uncle was professionally successful, who prioritized his career with, his career and wealth over family while i admired his accomplishments i also saw i also saw the emptiness in his personal life or at least the way that i saw it, he often advised me to never settle and i emphasize that message as a way to uh lead up lead me up and pass up meaningful opportunities both in relationships and in my personal life in my 20s i passed up relationships choosing ambition and the allure of money over qualities of virtual connection and stability that i now truly value seeing people who, seeing people who went on to build fulfilling family lives i have often wondered how a different path in my past may have been and how if i made different choices had.

[3:22] Changed my life now if i had different influences this pattern of prioritizing external markers of success over internal fulfillment followed me for years. It's left me grappling with the realization that while I've achieved, success, external success that I wanted, I passed up the things that truly matter to me now, authentic connection, stability, and a sense of belonging.

[3:52] Relationships and Patterns

Caller

[3:53] My personal lives have been shaped by these same struggles. I've unconsciously sought partners who mirrored unresolved issues with my father, relationships that were destined to fail because they were built on the foundation of fear and self-sabotage. I'm now in a relationship that's very different. My partner is kind, selfless, and deeply connected with her family. She knows the value of prioritizing over oneself, and I admire her for her virtues of honesty, curiosity, and clear communication. She believes I'm too hard on myself, and I view myself differently than others see me.

[4:26] Her perspective resonates. For much of my life, I've let pain and anger motivate and convincing myself they were the keys to my survival. I'm starting to see that they've also kept me walled off from others and more importantly from my authentic self. I've learned that my anger doesn't protect me, it isolates me. Stef, I want to break the cycle. I want to be present, open, and authentic in my current relationships and in my life. But I also fear repeating old mistakes or falling back into patterns of self-sabotage.

[5:00] Breaking Old Patterns

Caller

[5:01] I'd like your insights on my current path and how I can continue to break free from these patterns of relationships, having put limits on some and ending others entirely? Am I generally learning to let go of this anger, this fear that has defined much of my past, or unknowingly allowing them to creep back in? Finally, I wonder if the story could serve as a cautionary tale for other younger men who, like me at the time, might let pain, anger, or the allure of immediate gratification dictate their choices in the immediate. Thank you for your time, wisdom, and guidance.

[5:39] Reflecting on Marriages

Stefan

[5:39] Well, I appreciate that. It's a very frank and open and honest and raw message. I really, really appreciate that. So what happened with your marriages?

Caller

[5:54] So, the first, I was in my late 30s. I had returned back to school to pursue a career in medicine. We were two lonely people trying to make one not lonely person, I think. The relationship was fine initially. Actually um the marriage lasted about five and a half years um and in retrospect, i probably wasn't as present as i could have been.

Stefan

[6:33] Okay so let me just ask you for a tiny favor so listen you're obviously a very intelligent guy and a very skilled a very skilled in language and analogy and metaphor you know two lonely people trying to make one not lonely people now that narrative though all of your narratives have not worked because if your narratives had worked, then you wouldn't be calling me right so when i say what happened with your marriage if you tell me your narrative you're telling me all the things you got wrong about it right and uh so if you could just tell me like what happened um in terms of uh and i was unclear so i apologize for that but if you can just tell me sort of what happened in the mechanics or the breakup the was there an affair um was there any sort of abuse um did she did she uh quit to go pick grapes in queensland australia or like if you can tell me sort of the mechanics of what happened because the narrative won't particularly help if that makes sense.

Caller

[7:29] Under understood um and apologies so.

Stefan

[7:32] I'm looking for symptoms not diagnosis there's your medical term got.

Caller

[7:36] It got it got it uh she came from a broken family. We both had problems with communicating feelings and what we really wanted. If we had done that early on in the beginning, we probably would not have pursued the relationship. She, was she was a restless person as i was probably a restless person um prioritizing other things over our relationship i ended up uh coming home one day she said i'm not sure i want to be married i said okay are you sure about that she said yes we pursued therapy we went to a therapist for a while uh the therapist asked her flat out do you want to remain married and she said i don't think so and i moved out pretty much the next week or so after again trying with a therapist for a while, and she ended up moving in with someone shortly afterwards so i think she was looking for more attention than i was able to probably give her and that's how the relationship ended, how old is she a little more clear not much.

Stefan

[8:45] But better uh how old is she when was she younger older same.

Caller

[8:48] Yeah so no we were both the same age and this was uh we got together in our early 30s.

Stefan

[8:54] Ah okay and was there any talk of kids.

Caller

[8:57] Yeah yeah there was and i uh we had talked about starting a family and instead of starting a family she chose to go back to school um there was always something else um that i think from both of our perspectives um needed to happen before we had kids um i didn't feel that having a family with uh i mean she decided to go back to school when we were gonna potentially start to try having kids about a year after we had been married, and that kind of put a damper on that and um i like in my letter i felt like i was we were trying to play catch up and that just I think created resentment on both of our parts.

Stefan

[9:45] So you had talked about having kids. Do you know what the decision point was that she wanted to go back to school?

Caller

[9:52] She was in the legal field and kind of like administration. And she chose to pursue a higher degree. She worked for the government. And yeah, so that was like two years and two years and change. And she was in school and I was working. And I mean, we didn't have time to connect and there was other things.

Stefan

[10:22] Just two workaholics, right? I don't mean to say necessarily workaholic, but two people who worked a lot.

Caller

[10:27] Yeah, I would say that's definitely probably the case. I'm not focusing on the relationship.

Stefan

[10:33] And if you had focused on the relationship, do you think it would have worked out?

Caller

[10:39] In retrospect, probably not. She came from a family that was even more dysfunctional than mine, if I could be really frank. And that was definitely a thing. I could remember two occasions, one of which I... I mean, her mother was extremely critical of her and myself and not used to... I don't know someone i don't want to say talking back but giving their honest opinion about what her thoughts were and i could just remember doing that at one point and sticking up for my wife and, uh her mom went like apoplectic about it um and her mother had been i don't know married a number of times and was with uh her second marriage and at the end of our relationship she developed a very quickly progressive dementia syndrome, and that kind of predominated a lot of things.

Stefan

[11:44] Yeah, you can't have a successful marriage with toxic parents in the environment.

Caller

[11:49] No.

Stefan

[11:49] I mean, a marriage can last, I suppose, but it sure as heck can't be successful.

Caller

[11:55] No, and that's one of the things that hopefully my letter was able to bring out, that I chose both my ex-spouses, people that had incredibly dysfunctional upbringings.

[12:08] The First Marriage Breakdown

Stefan

[12:09] Sure, sure. I mean, yes, I get that. I get that. Okay. And that was the first marriage. What about the second?

Caller

[12:16] Second marriage, very different. We had much better communication style. But we were a great couple for the first five or so years of the relationship. We moved in a couple of years after. I mean, it was great. I mean, people would come up to us in the, supermarket saying, oh, you guys look, people we didn't even know, oh, you guys look like a great couple, the way your wife looks at you or your partner looks at you. And I mean, it was wonderful. We had good communication. And then, again, a lot of family stuff started coming up. Also came from an extremely broken family. Her mother had been married a couple times. Her father had been married a couple times. She has five half-siblings, no full siblings, and just really bad.

[13:25] The best way I could put it is... I overlooked a lot of these warning signs because she was so charismatic and made me feel good at the time. But I can remember very early on, like her family joking about the level of dysfunction. Like for example, I'll just give you one example. She was kidnapped by her grandmother, taken out of school. No one knew where she was for like two and a half days. and that 25 30 years later that story is told by her mother and and it's like a funny story in front of her mother and her half sister and her half brother uh and it's like a funny story that oh you know crazy grandma and you know crazy dad who was at my first marriage with uh an ankle bracelet on because he was on probation for you know selling narcotics huh um yeah and these were things that you know again everyone laughing about and at the time i, i didn't realize and this was before i i think i started even i had discovered you and just it's something didn't feel right but i just went with it um and i should not have pursued that relationship and you.

Stefan

[14:47] Were your wives.

Caller

[14:48] So this is the interesting thing i mean, not average average um six seven right.

Stefan

[15:02] Okay all right so you chose um i mean as a as a well-educated and successful guy i assume you could have had your pick of the lookers and you know not good or bad right obviously but it's a bit more surprising if a man chooses a woman who's not compatible and she's not even a stunner.

Caller

[15:26] Right okay and sorry that's that no that and that's something that in retrospect i've i mean i realize and i've been incredibly hard on myself because i realize now um you know fatherhood has passed me up. I don't want to say I feel alone, but I feel alone in terms of the decisions that I've made. And through, again, self-exploration, I realized my upbringing ultimately led me to choosing the partners that I chose. And both of my, I think I mentioned this in my letter, but both of my partners were pretty much carbon copies of my father. I married my dad twice. My second wife had an affair on me. That and the setting of... Also, like, an incredibly traumatic family thing that happened to her and her half-siblings. And...

Stefan

[16:31] I'm sorry, during the marriage?

Caller

[16:33] Yeah, yeah, during the marriage.

Stefan

[16:35] What happened? I mean, just roughly.

Caller

[16:37] So, her stepmother, who is the mother of her half-sister, who she's close with, had a massive stroke. And my ex-wife was really the only functional person in her extended family. So her stepmother, who she's not even blood-related to, she took on all of these responsibilities. I tried to be supportive as much as I could. But again, taking away from our relationship, before this, we had gone through fertility treatments to, you know, start a family in her late 30s, early 40s.

[17:24] And again, in retrospect, I realized that she probably wasn't all that serious about it because she subconsciously or not, I mean, realized the amount of dysfunction in her own family. Why would she want to bring, you know, a child into this? Um so i ended up a few years ago i ended up getting a text message from the other wife saying that your wife and my husband are having an affair and um you deserve to know, and um you know i confronted her on it and at first she denied it and she said it was you know an emotional affair because i wasn't present which oh.

Stefan

[18:07] Yes it's your fault I had an affair.

Caller

[18:09] Yeah, well, exactly.

Stefan

[18:10] So, um, and she knew that you had parents who didn't take responsibility for their own dysfunction. So that was particularly cruel.

Caller

[18:18] Yeah exactly okay.

[18:20] The Second Marriage Insights

Stefan

[18:21] All right so that was it for that right.

Caller

[18:24] Uh and you know it was initially she said that you know well you know it's emotional i love you i want to work things out you know there was a month or two that we kind of i'll say tried um but and we went to uh therapy and it was clear that she wasn't invested she said she wasn't still seeing this guy i, i had my doubts i did a little uh electronic surveillance and i found out that she had like never ended communication with this guy and was still talking to him and some of the things that she had communicated with him were just i mean disgusting and i called her out on it and that was sort of the end of the relationship and she ended up we ended up going through mediation and i ended up having to you know pay her quite a bit of money and it was uh, the money is was worth my uh dignity and self-respect at that point so i needed to just be out of that toxic situation okay and i haven't talked to her really since right.

Stefan

[19:28] Now did you choose the women because if you're successful and the women aren't even particularly physically attractive then most commonly it's that the women latch on to you and you go along with it.

Caller

[19:43] Yeah, that was probably feeling as though I was desired, initially anyway um and then again as the relationship went along it just, the first marriage is sort of again sort of slowly dissolved over time but this second marriage um she was a bit of a she had quite a bit of charisma and um but.

Stefan

[20:14] These weren't women that you pursued if i understand this rightly these weren't women that you very strongly pursued and like got to have him.

Caller

[20:21] Um my my my second was and initially she was much more attractive and she ended up you know fat bombing me um during the relationship um to where but.

Stefan

[20:35] That's usually because they're in contact with a dysfunctional family.

Caller

[20:38] Yeah yes yeah i mean just just for an example like just to put framework on this and uh five or so years five six years ago She got just a routine ear infection, which ended up developing into a really bad infection. She ended up having to be hospitalized. She ended up getting put on IV antibiotics. She was in the hospital for a week. The antibiotics gave her kidney failure to where she needed dialysis. They were even talking about having to do a kidney transplant. Her mother, who was away with her significant other for winter, learning about this, didn't even come back to see her in the hospital.

[21:31] And I can remember her mother saying, well, should I come in? I'm like, well, mother's name, this is your daughter. I don't know if she's in the hospital and they're talking about all these things. And she didn't come to visit her after she got discharged two weeks after being in the hospital. Her mom came in, swooping in, stayed at her house, and it was like this rushing in to save the day while I had been holding the fort down and visiting her twice a day in the hospital. It was not a good feeling.

Stefan

[22:11] Okay um what has been it's funny because uh i'm going backwards here i normally go forwards but i have the instinct to go backwards here so um what was your relationship or what is your relationship like with your own parents if they're still alive or what was it like over the course of your marriages so um.

Caller

[22:31] I mean my mother had i mean i again i was raised by myself by a single mother my dad was a chronic alcoholic my mom left him when i was i think eight or nine um i was mostly raised my by, grandparents until my grandfather had a massive uh stroke um i i'd i've always had a good relationship with my mother open honest um but interestingly one of the things from through listening to your show that i asked my mother maybe three or four years ago after this divorce after this affair came out um i had asked my mother what drew her to my dad and why she married my father because he's just such a dysfunctional and he also came from an extremely dysfunctional family and her only response was well if i hadn't met your father i wouldn't have had you or your brother and you're the most important things in my life so going back to you at asking me to really uh sharpen up my response that was kind of heartbreaking that was her only answer as to why she chose my father heartbreaking heartbreaking yeah that's appalling heart heartbreaking because i understood what that meant okay.

Stefan

[23:56] Tell me what.

Caller

[23:57] You think tell.

Stefan

[23:57] Me what sorry not what you think that means tell me what that means for you.

Caller

[24:00] Well that, that she had similar problems in selecting a dysfunctional person and her parents didn't help her didn't help guide her or warn her of this impending disaster with my father and my father's family who are all chronic alcoholics um so she knew that he.

Stefan

[24:23] Was an alcoholic before she married.

Caller

[24:24] Him. Yeah. Yeah.

Stefan

[24:26] Okay.

Caller

[24:28] Yeah. And yes, and I know exactly what that means.

[24:32] Understanding Parental Impact

Stefan

[24:32] And, um, what exactly does that mean?

Caller

[24:39] She chose him to not be alone and thought she would be able to possibly change him or alter his, course of dysfunction um save him from his parents which is not possible.

Stefan

[24:56] Okay so the problem is with your mother now um i i've got almost an hour and i'm so again i'm really sorry for being late but you're a very smart guy so we can hit the gas so, So the problem is with your relationship with your mother. There's something you don't see. So you have a good relationship with your mother. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about your childhood. And for instance, you said you were mostly raised by your grandmother, right?

Caller

[25:31] During my younger... So I was mostly raised by myself. That's that is the other problem, because, again, my grandfather ended up having a stroke. My grandmother was disabled. They at pretty much at the age of 10, I was left alone. I was raised by, you know, TV, Dungeons and Dragons and.

Stefan

[25:54] I've been there. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So why was your mother working hard? I mean, why was she not available to to raise you?

Caller

[26:05] Working single mother my my again if my grandfather that didn't happen to my grandfather i'm sure i would have i would have had other people help raise me um but it was mostly myself and i mean i felt like uh piggy and the lord of the flies at times okay um so.

Stefan

[26:26] Why she was working but your grandparents were raising you when you were younger, so she would have nights and weekends, right?

Caller

[26:37] Sure.

Stefan

[26:38] And how available was she then?

Caller

[26:43] As available as i think she probably could have been um as a single mother in her late 30s raising you know two young boys um i again looking back at things i mean i i wish i would have been exposed to more positive male influences i mean even at that time did she date, not a lot i mean she she prioritized the i would say the best that she could my brother and i i mean she didn't have guys coming in and out she didn't um she wasn't going out she wasn't um so.

Stefan

[27:22] She prioritized you and your brother the best that she could is that.

Caller

[27:25] The best that she could as a as a as a woman um but that's not what i needed i needed you know a strong male role model, um not you know charles bronson and chuck norris showing me how to to deal with life's problems.

Stefan

[27:41] Oh you mean like she dated some fairly lower lower class guys.

Caller

[27:45] No no no no she didn't date anybody i mean she she did when i got a little bit older i mean she she did date uh she did date some people but like they they weren't always at the house and she wasn't i mean she wasn't always okay so so i'm.

Stefan

[28:02] Sorry to interrupt so tell me uh if you can tell me i'm sorry you can uh, on a sort of typical evenings and weekends like did you did you chat with her did you play board games did you uh go for walks did you like whatever you know hear about her life and get advice and did you share with her about what was going on at school i mean because she's working but there's nights and weekends right.

Caller

[28:24] Yeah yeah um yeah i mean we would talk but the important things i don't think so. She'd ask how school was going. I would say things, We would, you know, she tried to take us on little vacations here and there with what she could. We grew up in, you know, a two-bedroom rent-controlled house.

Stefan

[28:48] No, the money doesn't matter. The money is irrelevant. You can be a great parent and be broke. I mean, that's not the issue. So did you have substantive conversations with your mother about, you said you mostly raised yourself. What that means is that it sounds like your mother wasn't, she may have spent time with you, but she wasn't spending quality time with you in terms of having important conversations about.

Caller

[29:13] Yeah, I would say that is the case. Surface level.

Stefan

[29:19] Okay. Okay.

Caller

[29:22] And I mean, at this point in my life, I could say I'm, you know, a couple levels beyond surface level. That I need more than surface level. okay.

Stefan

[29:33] Is your mother still alive.

Caller

[29:34] Yes she is and.

Stefan

[29:36] Your relationship with her at the moment is what state.

Caller

[29:39] Um we we talk regularly um she is you know despite the um what we're talking about now i mean, i think i've heard her swear like three times in her entire life uh i have we have an open relationship now we talk especially regarding my you know my most recent divorce from a almost three years ago and and that happened but again very little insight into it um, okay sorry is.

Stefan

[30:15] Your brother older or younger.

Caller

[30:16] Younger okay.

Stefan

[30:18] And how's your brother doing.

Caller

[30:21] Uh outwardly i think very he's doing no sorry in.

Stefan

[30:26] Terms of relationships i'm sure you guys are all professionally successful.

Caller

[30:29] Yeah yeah no uh in terms of relationship i don't have much of a relationship with my brother at this point okay.

Stefan

[30:34] And what about uh how is your brother in terms of is he married does he have kids.

Caller

[30:39] He is um in a long-term committed relationship he has one daughter with his first wife his first wife was um kind of a lot like i would say a combination of my first and second marriages okay so.

Stefan

[30:55] Not particularly successful in terms of.

Caller

[30:57] Marriage Right. Correct. Yep.

Stefan

[30:59] And correct. And you all have one kid between you.

Caller

[31:02] He has one child. Yes. I have none.

Stefan

[31:05] Okay. So let's get back when you said to your mother, basically, what drew you to my to your father, right?

Caller

[31:14] Right.

Stefan

[31:15] And she said, well, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have you and your brother, right?

Caller

[31:20] Yeah. And I did press her on that a little bit more. And and some of the things that she said were, you know, he had a kind heart. Um he i mean it was almost like she was describing um, he was looking to get out of his.

Stefan

[31:44] Sorry i mean so so this is where you get your narrative habits from and the narratives are dangerous right this is why we always have to return back to facts and empiricism, right? Are you a religious man?

Caller

[32:00] Not as well. Not organizational religion any longer. I grew up Catholic.

Stefan

[32:10] Okay. I mean, as a medical professional, I'm sure, of course, that you prefer the scientific method for the exploration of illness as opposed to its demonic possession.

Caller

[32:20] Absolutely.

Stefan

[32:21] Right. Because you can't cure anything with demonic possession, except maybe, I don't know, maybe some psychosomatic stuff, but we prefer evidence-based medicine rather than narrative, because narrative, you can just make up whatever you want, and it gives you the illusion of knowledge without the fact of knowledge. So I'll tell you what I found appalling about what your mother said, because he had a kind heart, it's meaningless. A man with a kind heart doesn't drink himself into oblivion when he has a family.

Caller

[32:53] Right.

Stefan

[32:54] Right? He gets help.

Caller

[32:56] Right?

Stefan

[32:56] Goes to a 12-step program, gets, I don't know, whatever drugs you can get to help with alcohol addiction, and he sorts that shit out, right?

Caller

[33:04] Yep. I agree.

Stefan

[33:05] Okay. So this kind heart stuff is nonsense. If he has a kind heart, even if he screws up that badly, he still will stay in his child's life.

Caller

[33:13] Right. which.

Stefan

[33:14] He didn't do right.

Caller

[33:15] Well he tried to remain in my life and he still is sort of like this, appendage in my life um and again going back to like even when they split up the fact that my mother like let him see me and my brother while he was still like an alcoholic and driving us around and uh i mean yeah that again judgment not the best that's all judgment.

Stefan

[33:48] Not the best.

Caller

[33:50] My mother's judgment no i know.

Stefan

[33:52] Who you're talking about.

Caller

[33:53] Okay yeah all.

Stefan

[33:54] Right judgment not the best so she uh she put you in danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

Caller

[34:00] By handing you up to an alcoholic who was a driver absolutely and also uh.

Stefan

[34:05] Other other people right because you could crash into anyone right.

Caller

[34:08] Yeah, absolutely. As a kid, I can remember the cops pulling my dad over. This was back in the 80s where, oh, he's drunk, they drive me home, and it was different than it is now, and I can remember that. And as a young kid, I didn't understand what that all meant, but now I do. So, yeah, I didn't feel protected. And that's part of the reason why I created all these false selves.

Stefan

[34:44] Okay, so back to narrative. All right. So she says, I am happy to have met your father because it gave me you and your brother, right?

Caller

[34:56] Well, I don't know if she used happy, but that, I think that's the way that she, her narrative and how she can explain it.

Stefan

[35:04] Okay. To me, utterly narcissistic. It's about what she got out of it and what she prefers, not about what was best for you and your brother.

Caller

[35:16] Yeah especially after having me and then two years later having my two and a half years later having my brother knowing that and bringing my brother into.

Stefan

[35:29] Okay so she is happy to have you guys in her life did she ask one single question about how you experienced your father or about how tough it was for you.

Caller

[35:42] No.

Stefan

[35:43] So that's blindingly, staggeringly, in my humble opinion, and utterly narcissistic.

Caller

[35:49] Mm-hmm.

[35:55] Mother's Role in Relationships

Stefan

[35:55] Because she should have, I mean, she didn't say, I'm appalled at how difficult it was for you and your brother that I chose such a bad father for you.

Caller

[36:03] Yeah.

Stefan

[36:04] I mean, outside of the existential question that, of course, you wouldn't be you if it wasn't for the father, but, you know, for my children, right? She did not utter one comment or show the slightest curiosity on how difficult any of that was for you and your brother. And she can see the consequences of her decision, which is the failed marriages. Right yeah so we could say of course and and i understand all of this where you'd say well but my mother was uh you know the young and dumb excuse you know she was young she was untutored blah blah blah okay okay all right so let's let's i don't like waving that magic wand because i'm a free will guy but let's say that that's something we could accept okay how old is she now is she in her 80s 70s 77 76 okay and so when she was a couple of years ago when she was in her mid-70s she was still as bottomlessly selfish as she was in her 20s what did she learn over half a century, i mean we can say only 20s whatever bad decisions you know out of a bad child okay i get that did she help warn you against any of the bad relationships that you and your brother had.

Caller

[37:21] No i i don't know about my brother but, And she had been around my second wife and my second wife's mother who knew a lot of the dysfunction there, for sure.

Stefan

[37:43] Okay, so she didn't parent you, really, right? She abandoned her parental responsibilities to your grandparents, right? To her parents.

Caller

[38:09] Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure.

Stefan

[38:12] She abandoned her parental responsibilities to let her parents raise you.

Caller

[38:17] Uh yeah for again for a very short period of time and then my grandparents were not able to do that there was i probably would have then she abandoned.

Stefan

[38:27] You to the internet and the television.

Caller

[38:28] Yeah right correct yes 100 okay.

Stefan

[38:32] I mean you were 10 your brother is younger right.

Caller

[38:36] Yes okay.

Stefan

[38:38] So your parents Sorry, your mother left you home alone when you were 10 and your brother was 7 or 8, right?

Caller

[38:47] A large portion of the time.

Stefan

[38:50] Okay, and don't tell me where you are in the world, but in many places in the world, that's criminal. You cannot leave a 10- and a 7-year-old home alone. So there's criminal levels of irresponsibility. I mean, what if he'd had a medical emergency? What if he'd fallen and hurt himself? I mean, you were lucky. But it was dangerous. I mean, it wasn't just your father.

Caller

[39:31] No, no, I 100%, I know that.

Stefan

[39:35] Okay, so irresponsible, criminal, and, you know, we can say, oh, but it's the government and legitimacy, but in a free society, you wouldn't be allowed to do that. You can't leave a 10-year-old and a 70-year-old home alone, especially boys.

Caller

[39:48] Mm-hmm.

Stefan

[39:50] I mean, sorry to me to laugh because it's crazy. My brother and I were left alone. We wanted to watch TV. My mother had locked the TV in another room, so we got out on a third floor balcony, railing, and climbed along the edge of a building to get into the other room. I mean, we could sort of laugh about it in a way, but that's insane. And we were not far off from that age. I mean, I assume you wouldn't do that if you had kids?

Caller

[40:23] No.

Stefan

[40:24] So.

Caller

[40:25] No, not at this point.

Stefan

[40:27] Right. So I, uh, that's, that's appalling. So you weren't parented by her really. And she left you home alone. And was it starting at the age of 10 or was it, was it even younger?

Caller

[40:52] No. Well, so yes, about the age of 10, um, whether it was, you know, with my grandparents who were again, very, it was, were elderly. And my grandfather had just had a massive stroke. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Like I said, it's, in hindsight, it was self-survival and preservation.

Stefan

[41:22] Sorry, what? I'm not sure what that refers to. Who's self-survival and preservation?

Caller

[41:27] Just trying to preserve myself. I don't want to get into narrative like you had said, But in retrospect, the feelings of your abandonment and being alone –, Yeah, and then all the risks and dangers associated with that. Exposure to things that I probably shouldn't have been exposed to.

Stefan

[41:54] I assume you mean like internet pornography?

Caller

[41:57] Oh, no, this was pre-internet pornography.

Stefan

[42:02] Okay, so when you were asking about your childhood, she only talked about herself. Now, has she ever asked you or your brother, to your knowledge, has she ever asked you about the effects of your chaotic and often neglected childhood on your lives?

Caller

[42:21] No, not me.

Stefan

[42:23] Okay. Why do you think? I mean, she's got the evidence, right? She can see this sort of trail of bad marriages and bad decisions and few to no kids and all of that. So she can see all of the effects of that. so why do you think she hasn't asked you uh about your life or what may have gone wrong or what the issues may be or what happened with your childhood and so on.

Caller

[42:47] Don't know um.

Stefan

[42:50] Sure you do i'm sure everybody tries of course you know i mean you've got the woman for almost half a century right so you know her motives you know what's going on.

Caller

[42:57] As soon as i as soon as i.

Stefan

[42:59] Said i don't know it's too easy i knew.

Caller

[43:01] Exactly where where.

Stefan

[43:02] This is going because Because.

Caller

[43:04] I mean, it would implicate a failure on her part.

Stefan

[43:07] Okay.

Caller

[43:07] And her inability to, you know, successfully parent.

Stefan

[43:18] Okay. Did she successfully parent?

Caller

[43:20] No.

Stefan

[43:21] Okay. So she's not your mother in that sense. She's like a chaotic roommate who paid the bills. She didn't parent you. Right? So what's wrong with trying to figure out whether she made good or bad decisions? What's wrong with having a fair evaluation?

Caller

[44:09] No, there's nothing wrong with it. And if anything, it helps me. I mean, at this point, she's made bad decisions. There's no question. And I accept that. And in no way do I view, like, when I look at both of my parents, and I view this differently than my brother, that my mother is just as responsible as my father. And my brother, you know, will, you know, point to, you know, my dad's dysfunction. But I said to him even recently, like, mom picked dad. You know, she's not off the hook with that. And that's certainly troubled me. Right okay and i realize that has influenced my poor decision making in who i've chosen to surround myself with right okay okay, and get and choose to be close with, Okay.

Stefan

[45:38] So what is your moral evaluation of your mother?

Caller

[45:45] Well, as far as what we're talking about, it's not good. Yeah I mean and I accept that and I understand this and that I know through, both my own therapy that I've done journaling and listening to your show definitely to an extent that's played probably the biggest role in where, where and why i've chosen the relationships i've chosen in my inability to uh select uh a good partner i mean well did your mother approve.

Stefan

[46:35] Of your marriages was she enthusiastic about the marriages yes.

Caller

[46:43] The first no I don't think the first wife she was the second wife no no she would tell you.

Stefan

[46:48] I mean was she vocal.

Caller

[46:48] Well she did after well the sex sabotage though yeah well I yeah that I realize, again and this that came that came to light afterwards um after the divorce she approved of my second wife um as did a lot of other people in my life that well that just means.

Stefan

[47:10] That they are not wise enough to help you avoid disaster. Because you talk about all of your issues or sins or problems as if you're doing this in an isolated fashion. Now, if you were out living in the woods and you say, oh, I looked up the wrong plant and I ate the wrong plant and I got a rash, right? Or whatever, right? I'd say, well, you know, that wasn't particularly wise, but at least you weren't being surrounded by people who claim to love you, right? So you have this, the isolation of your childhood. You say that your current wife says that you're too self-critical, but that's because you are not recognizing, and I understand why, but you aren't recognizing that you don't make individual decisions in a social environment. You don't.

Caller

[48:05] Can you explain that a little bit better? Sure.

Stefan

[48:07] No, I'm sorry. It wasn't clear. um okay so uh so uh when when my wife got pregnant she said we need a house right and so we talked about it and uh we we got a house right and we but she wouldn't just go and buy a house right neither would i right we discuss things so when when i have employees and i want to do a particular thing in the show uh that involves them uh we talk about it negotiate it make sure that we're all on the same page. I don't make individual decisions in my life because I'm a husband, I'm a father, I work with people and I have friendships and so I don't make individual decisions.

[48:50] So, when something goes wrong in your life, and, you know, obviously some things have gone very right, your professional life and all of that, and congratulations, I mean, that's very cool and very admirable. But in terms of the personal stuff, you look back and you say, I made these mistakes. I didn't think of this, or I didn't do that, or I was not available enough, or I worked too much, or, you know, I'm sorry to sort of skim over your marriages, but these were some of the things that I heard. and you take on that that's just you. That's not just you. Who is in your life? You have a brother, you have a father, you have a mother. As a bare minimum, you also have extended family, you had an uncle who influenced you, and you have friends. So how many people do you think you have watching your back when you make decisions? I would argue at least eight and probably ten. Is that a fair statement?

Caller

[49:56] Yes.

Stefan

[49:57] Okay. So when you go into battle, right, why do we not have eyes in the back of our head? Because we're social animals. Which means that other people are supposed to watch our backs. And that's why we don't, like, if I'm going into battle and I'm alone, I'm going to keep looking around and turning around, right? But if you and I go into battle and we're back-to-back, my back is covered while you're still alive, right?

Caller

[50:22] Mm-hmm.

Stefan

[50:23] So you look at the decisions you've made in your life as personal issues, personal failures. Untrue. Absolutely untrue. Why? Because you're not alone. So if you and I go into battle And I wander off And then you get hit in the back With some club You'd get mad at me, right? Because I didn't tell you I was leaving I just kind of wandered off And you thought I was back there, You wouldn't sit there and say Oh my god, I left my back completely unguarded I didn't watch my sex I'm such an idiot It's like, no, I wandered off, Because you're so used to doing everything in an isolated fashion that you take all of the responsibility for mistakes.

Caller

[51:17] Yeah.

Stefan

[51:22] And I've got to be frank, the cruelty, if not the outright sadism, of afterwards saying, oh, I knew that marriage wasn't, she wasn't right for you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Right, that's like me saying to my daughter when she's learning how to ride a bike, oh, yeah, you should totally, if you want to ride down that hill, that's fine. If you want to ride down that hill, I'll be there. If that's what works for you, great. And she rides down the hill and, I don't know, she breaks her arm. And then I'm like, I knew you couldn't do that hill, man. But that's weird. That's cruel, right? Sorry, you're fidgeting a little.

Caller

[52:04] Sorry.

Stefan

[52:06] So i want to break you out of the isolation because the way out of your self-attack, is to stop thinking that you were just making all these decisions in these, pure god or beast isolation omnipotence, your mother made a bad decision in marriage so outside of just raising you which doesn't seem to have done, which she doesn't seem to have done very much. Outside of just raising you, she has one job, and one job only when you and your brother become adults. Because she had a very bad marriage. So, what is her one job when you all become adults?

[52:55] Parenting Responsibilities

Caller

[52:56] Sending us off into adulthood.

Stefan

[52:59] That's going to happen. That's done by nature. What is her one job job, because the biggest disaster in her life was her marriage to your father, right?

Caller

[53:07] Making sure we don't repeat the same mistake.

Stefan

[53:09] Exactly. It is making sure you and your brother marry well. So she's got to read books. She's got to go to therapy. She's got to consult with experts. She's got to watch videos. She's got to keep a journal. She's got to figure out what went wrong. And she's got to explain to you all the bad decisions she made so you don't repeat them. That's her job yep and she's in her mid-70s, and she's not lifted a finger to help you and your brother avoid the mistakes that she has made to the detriment of you being a father.

[53:56] Consequences of Neglect

Stefan

[53:56] Her selfishness and self-justifications and lack of curiosity, lack of interest, lack of protection, lack of parenting has literally, literally de-balled you. Emasculated you. Your balls are there to make babies.

[54:16] And this is why I was so appalled when she said, oh, no, but it's, hey, man, marrying your father was great for me. Oh, yeah, no, it totally worked for me. I got what I wanted, I got a couple of kids out of it it's great to know you and your brother, wonderful not looking at any of the goddamn carnage of you guys' lives, that arises because she wasn't watching your back she encouraged you to repeat her mistakes, and then, completely and totally stabbed you in the back afterwards when she said oh yeah I know I knew that wasn't the right marriage. That wasn't the right woman for you, right? And then you tell me, oh, you know, with pure innocence and honesty, oh, yeah, and my mom and I, we have a real honest and open good relationship, blah, blah, blah. But this is why you have no self-protection from the crazies. And I'm not calling your ex-wives crazies, but I'm thinking about the stepmother with your second wife who had the sudden onset dementia and your wife is like, oh, I got to take care of all of this and that was a big problem with your marriage, right?

Caller

[55:31] Yeah, at the end, for sure.

Stefan

[55:32] Right. Okay, what did your... What did your wives think of your mother?

Caller

[55:41] Oh, they loved her.

Stefan

[55:42] Oh, my God. Okay. Oh my god well that's a that's a red flag right.

Caller

[55:52] But they loved her and they loved her their own mothers which i also found kind of bizarre sorry.

Stefan

[56:03] It was bizarre that they left their own mothers.

Caller

[56:05] Yeah but not bizarre that they loved your mother i mean in retrospect yeah now Now I can see that. But at the time, with the amount of dysfunctional things that they had shared with me, it's like, well, how? But looking at, in retrospect, they're both equally bad.

Stefan

[56:35] Right, but you can't have any protection against dysfunctional people.

Caller

[56:39] Right.

Stefan

[56:40] If you can't even have a direct conversation with your own mother about, like, both of your kids have these messed up relationships, or at least had. Like, why didn't you teach us better? Why didn't you learn from dad?

Caller

[56:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Stefan

[56:57] I mean, she chose absolutely the wrong father for her children, and she continues to praise that decision. I mean, if your mother has learned nothing in over three quarters of a century, how are you supposed to learn anything? How are you supposed to have a standard of improvement?

Caller

[57:20] Mm-hmm. That makes sense.

Stefan

[57:25] So you blame yourself to protect your mother, i mean i almost married the wrong woman and you know it was in a sense just fortune and luck, that i didn't and after i almost married the wrong woman which i mean could could have ruined my life without a doubt probably would have uh after that i had to look at everyone around me and say, okay, why did they not say anything? Either they had no idea that this was the wrong woman for me, in which case, how could they possibly claim to know anything about me? Or they knew that it was the wrong woman for me, and they were fine with that. Either way, holy crap.

Caller

[58:12] Uh-huh.

Stefan

[58:13] See, you have this belief that your marriage exists in isolation from all of your other relationships, and if it goes wrong, well, that's just on you, man. You just made mistakes. You just did the wrong thing. Nope, couldn't be more wrong. Sorry to be annoying, but you couldn't be more wrong. Your marriages were a collective error. Everyone who was older than you i mean your uncle what did your uncle say about your marriages.

Caller

[58:48] Um again my my first probably similar that like that he after the fact that he didn't think we were aligned and i can remember, thinking when he said that, like, I wish someone would have told me this beforehand. And I've had a very superficial relationship with my father. And I can remember, going out to breakfast with him before my first marriage and sitting with him, thinking, wishing that he would say, don't go through with this. But yeah, you're 100% when...

Stefan

[59:48] So you got married to protect your parents. Your parents wanted you to get married because the women you were marrying posed no threat to their authority, power, and parenthood over you. Because a quality woman would have looked at these people and said, ooh, you know, these are the people who did the most harm to you, and I love you, and I can't also love the people who did you the most harm. Right? If some guy in a bar beat up the woman you love, could you love him too?

Caller

[1:00:28] No.

Stefan

[1:00:29] Of course not. So you can't love people and also love the people who did them the greatest harm. And your parents did you by far the greatest harm of any people. So all the people who say oh no your parents are great they are cheering on the people who abused and neglected you abandoned you used you selfishly as your mother admitted for their own ends their own pleasures their own preferences not giving one rat's ass about what you thought or felt or what was best for you so a quality woman comes along and i'm not saying that your current one is not. I'm just saying, like, if a really quality woman comes along, she's going to look at your parents and she's going to say, yeah, I kind of hate them. Because they really did harm for you and they've never really apologized. They've never really made restitution. They don't ask you how they can do better. They don't ask you to improve. They just use you. So I don't like them. How could I like them?

[1:01:34] Quality Relationships Defined

Stefan

[1:01:35] So, if a quality woman comes along, that's going to threaten the authority your parents have and the power your parents have over you, because they're going to say, no, I don't want these people around my grandkids. Are you crazy? Of course not. I can't have selfish people around my grandkids. I don't even like, I don't want to go visit them.

[1:01:59] I don't like them. In fact, I despise them, because they are unapologetic, and they did the man I love, the greatest harm of anyone in the world. Do not ask me. I mean, you can ask me all you want, but I don't like them. I won't like them, and I certainly will not have them around my grandkids. So if you want to get married and have kids, my friend, you have a choice to make, right? You can hang around with mommy and daddy, who abandoned and neglected you, or you can be with me, but you can't have both. Because I have to do what's best for the kids, and also what, in fact, happens to be best for you. What's best for the kids is not to have weird, narcissistic child abusers and neglecters around, and also, it's not good for you. I can't stand seeing you bow down before these people and not get any of your needs met and, you know, kind of be their goofy, happy slave. I can't, like, I can't do it. I won't do it.

[1:03:00] So, and if your parents came over, let's say your mother came over, then a quality woman would be like, okay, so, you know, Mrs. Smith or whatever her name is, help me understand, you know, I've heard some troubling things from the man I love about his childhood and, you know, because I care about him and I want a safe environment for my family and my kids, you know, we really need to kind of discuss this because this is, you know, pretty troubling, pretty troubling.

[1:03:33] And then there would be like a massive family convulsion and your mom would get mad and storm around and this and that and the other because somebody would be finally sticking up for you. What does your current partner think of your mother and your father?

[1:04:04] Current Partner's Perspective

Caller

[1:04:04] Yeah. From the surface level, I think pretty much the same.

Stefan

[1:04:17] The same as what? I went through a bunch of scenarios.

Caller

[1:04:21] I would say that my mom outwardly is kind. And, um, and. Okay.

Stefan

[1:04:35] Sorry. Sorry, bro. You and I are smart enough that we, this outwardly stuff is meaningless. Have you told your partner what happened in your childhood?

Caller

[1:04:49] About my father being an alcoholic? Yes.

Stefan

[1:04:51] And your mother marrying and your mother, um, basically raising you and giving you any feedback. And have you also told your partner about how your mother did not help you in your adulthood, did not warn you about dangerous women to marry, but strutted around afterwards saying how wise she was and she knew all the whole time?

[1:05:10] Truth About Family Dynamics

Stefan

[1:05:10] I mean, have you told your partner the truth about your mother?

Caller

[1:05:26] I think that's a conversation that I have to, again, go below the surface, which, yeah.

Stefan

[1:05:39] In other words, are you giving your partner a just and fair evaluation of your mother so that she can make her own choices? Or are you controlling and manipulating the information so that you can continue to appease your mother. Because you have a very fragmented, in my view, obviously my humble opinion, you have a very fragmented and sketchy relationship with your mother. And fragmented and sketchy relationships that are perceived to be essential always breed compliance, enslavement, appeasement. Because you should have a strong enough relationship that you can challenge your mother with your genuine thoughts, feelings, and experience, and the relationship will be strengthened thereby. But you don't have that, so you have to comply, otherwise your mother will reject you or abandon you because she already signaled and modeled that she preferred other things to raising you. That's a sketchy bond.

Caller

[1:06:41] Sure.

Stefan

[1:06:42] It's a fragile bond and a fragile bond means a strong bond is when you can strongly disagree, and become have a better relationship thereby a sketchy bond is when if you say something that the other person doesn't like they just shut down ostracize abandon reject neglect whatever right they just punish you.

Caller

[1:07:02] Appease in a piece yeah.

Stefan

[1:07:04] Yeah so so you to be in the relationship with your parents you have to shut up and agree with them, and that's terrible yeah.

Caller

[1:07:17] I've and, i've definitely broken from that with my father maybe 10 years ago um, And beyond, again, me asking that question to my mother after the dissolution of my second marriage, yeah, I have not done that.

Stefan

[1:07:45] And I'm not blaming you for that at all, obviously. I hope you're not getting any, I'm not criticizing, I'm just simply pointing out the pattern.

Caller

[1:07:53] No, that's what I need more than anything else. And I guess the correlate to that, which I don't know if we'll be able to get into, but is the, what do I do about that in my late 40s now?

Stefan

[1:08:10] Well, no, so you've still got another 40 years on the planet, right?

Caller

[1:08:14] Absolutely.

Stefan

[1:08:15] And you should have love. And you have a niece or a nephew.

Caller

[1:08:21] Yes.

Stefan

[1:08:21] And you can do good in your community and you can do good in your practice and you can do good in your relationship. So learning that we put honesty above other people's immediate preferences. You can't have a relationship if you lie. And I'm not calling you a liar, right? But you were raised to appease your parents. Because the bond was so fragile. Well, I mean, your father obviously abandoned you. Your mother, to some degree, abandoned you or certainly didn't raise you, which means that she doesn't, she's there for her, not for you. And if she's there for her, not for you, then if you show up and it's uncomfortable for her, she'll just drop you like a hot potato. So it's going on the principle that I am not going to spend, I had to spend the first half of my life lying. I don't have to spend the second half of my life lying and appeasing and groveling in a way.

Caller

[1:09:19] Mm-hmm.

Stefan

[1:09:21] So, I mean, whether you have honest conversations with your parents, I don't know, that's obviously a decision for you to make, but having a commitment to just say, look, I'm going to tell the truth, and if it bothers people, it bothers people, but I'm not going to pretend to have a relationship, but there is no relationship. I'm not going to have this, hey, nice weather for this type of year kind of nonsense going on. So what you do about it, I think, I mean, I don't know if you've read my book, Real-Time Relationships, but I think what you do is you just make that commitment, that foundational commitment to tell the truth no matter what. Tell the truth though the skies fall. Tell the truth and shame the devil, the stuff that you and I were raised with. And I have not bear false witness.

Caller

[1:10:02] Yes, and I have read RTR, and I've embodied a lot of that into all of my relationships, being 100% truthful and being prepared to break or significantly limit certain relationships that are not healthy in my life. What I'm hearing from you, Stef, is….

Stefan

[1:10:32] That's the problem.

[1:10:33] Moving Forward with Honesty

Caller

[1:10:34] Yeah i i i realize that and i've realized that from top from this conversation that that that's that's the the nucleus of um what we're talking about here um so, other than getting angry at my mother and having i guess coming to terms with that, where do I go?

Stefan

[1:11:02] Well, I tell you what, brother, do that, and that's a lot. Right? So do that, and that's a lot. And this is interesting, because again, I've got to go in a minute or two, and I'm sorry for this, but I'm happy to pick this up again. If you decide to have an honest conversation with your mother, I would be absolutely fascinated to talk to you afterwards and find out how it went.

Caller

[1:11:24] Well, more so at some point, would you be open to a role play with that what that would sound like.

Stefan

[1:11:30] Sure sure absolutely in fact if you want to do that before uh we can schedule another one and and do that listen i'm i i showed up late this morning so i'm absolutely you're back in call because i i made the error i made the mistake so um no worries so so if you want to reschedule we can do that role play whatever i can do to help you with that i'd be thrilled to help you because look man i mean you're a you're a great guy you do a lot of good in the world, and you genuinely and deeply deserve to have the kind of love, relaxation, emotional availability, and commitment. But you know, you say you're not emotionally available. Well, that's because you constantly have to appease selfish people growing up, and that's still part of your life. So you can't be emotionally available because your emotions are dangerous, toxic, or harmful to selfish people, because selfish people do not like it when you have your own thoughts and feelings independent of their immediate preferences. They do not like it, and they will punish you for it so i can be emotionally available if punishment if honesty results in punishment how can you be emotionally available.

Caller

[1:12:32] I understand that and um i appreciate your time my homework will be i will have that conversation with my um my current partner um that honest conversation with my current partner.

Stefan

[1:12:45] And that sorry to interrupt but that also involves you talking about her family yes which is okay do you like her family and the effect that they have on her. Are these people you want in your life? Could you be honest and direct with them? All right. Again, I'm real sorry for this. If you want to do the role play before you talk to your mom, I'm happy to schedule that at your convenience. And I really do appreciate your time today. And I look forward to our next conversation. You're a really great guy to chat with this stuff about, and I really do appreciate your time.

Caller

[1:13:24] Appreciate your stuff. You have a good day.

Stefan

[1:13:25] Thanks, man. Bye-bye.

Caller

[1:13:27] Thanks.

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