0:09 - Starting Fresh
0:51 - Overcoming Obstacles
2:11 - Life's Challenges
2:56 - Seeking Clarity
5:29 - Navigating Employment
7:00 - Reflections on Work
7:25 - Skills and Negotiation
8:34 - The Struggle for Independence
8:57 - Childhood Memories
21:03 - Family Dynamics
30:49 - The Impact of Violence
44:11 - Adolescent Relationships
52:42 - Marriage and Its Challenges
57:38 - The Baby's Arrival
1:05:27 - Confronting the Past
1:11:16 - Understanding Fear
1:20:01 - Self-Reflection and Growth
In this engrossing call, host Stefan engages in a deep and challenging conversation with a caller who is in his mid-30s and grappling with significant life issues, including financial struggles, employment challenges, and the aftermath of a difficult relationship. The conversation begins with the caller expressing a desire to find a way to make money while engaging in meaningful work. However, his responses are often circuitous and lack clarity, prompting Stefan to seek more specific questions and objectives from the caller in order to provide effective assistance.
As the caller outlines his background, he shares experiences of having been raised in a tumultuous environment, mentioning a problematic relationship with his parents. He conveys a sense of confusion regarding how to achieve personal and financial stability, detailing a history of live-in arrangements that were financially unsustainable. The conversation reveals his history of ineffective communication, as he struggles to articulate specific concerns that could guide the discussion towards potential solutions.
Stefan persistently pushes for clarity amidst the vague narratives shared by the caller. The caller describes periods of feeling oppressed, claiming he escaped from what he termed a "medical tyranny,” and expresses frustration with the stigma attached to his experiences with mental health. Throughout the conversation, Stefan remains patient while guiding the dialogue towards practical outcomes, continually steering the focus back to the immediate question of how the caller could find meaningful work and financial independence.
As the converation progresses, the caller reveals more about his childhood, including instances of violence and control enforced by his parents. This backstory is pertinent to understanding the caller's current relational difficulties and life choices. He describes instances of punishments imposed by his father, leading to feelings of isolation and mistrust. The conversation shifts toward discussing a past marriage that ultimately ended in dysfunction and separation, particularly focusing on the incident of the caller’s ex-wife taking their child from the hospital and the subsequent complications surrounding their relationship.
Stefan’s incisive questioning uncovers not only the complexities of the caller's marital history but also the emotional turmoil that he endured during and after the relationship. The caller freely admits to past violent behavior, indicating an awareness of the underlying issues that have impacted his relationships. The discussion then delves into the profound implications of the caller’s actions on his future and his relationship with his daughter, revealing a cycle of trauma and unresolved conflict that appears to haunt him.
Throughout the discussion, Stefan emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and accountability, urging the caller to recognize the impact of his choices on his current circumstances. He offers insights into the necessity of rigorous self-examination, advising the caller to confront his past decisions and their consequences honestly. The conversation culminates in a hopeful suggestion for the caller to explore new opportunities and to seek support in making healthier life choices moving forward.
In sum, the call offers rich terrain for exploration around trauma, accountability, and the challenges of initiating positive change in one's life while also providing clear insights on how past experiences shape present behavior. Through persistent questioning and empathetic listening, Stefan guides the caller toward a greater understanding of himself and a potential roadmap to a more stable and fulfilling future.
[0:00] Your message was a little scant, so if you can tell me in a little bit in more detail how it is I can best help you, I would love to hear.
[0:10] Yeah, so forward thinking. I've been looking for an opportunity to make money, and I've been writing a lot, more than I thought I could even write. So but i'm trying to make it so that there's you know i'm benefiting someone um that you know that's actually gonna be reciprocal eventually yeah that's sort of.
[0:38] Starting midstream i'm not sure the general like you know i want to make money and meet nice people i'm not sure with the philosophical content there so if you can just tell me a little bit about um how more specifically i could help you over the course of this call.
[0:52] Sure sure so, my parents love to throw food in my face and i found that that was a very convenient um thing that other people started to uh follow through on after i left their orbit and i um so anyway so I decided that my the main thing that I was focusing on was just not to be obese and then okay well that was easy so eventually I mean that's at the point where I'm at now or that was easy to get over um so I I start I start you know writing and I find all these uphevels and, problems that pretty much disappear as I write about them so I just get confused, how can i help someone when it's so easy to no.
[1:47] No i still don't i need something more clear you know.
[1:51] How can.
[1:51] I help someone i write things get clearer that's very foggy i don't know what specifically you want help with i mean have you you've listened to these call-in shows before right.
[2:01] Of course yeah okay.
[2:03] So i'm not criticism or anything but people come in with sort of specific stuff that they want to talk about and i just need to know kind of what that is.
[2:11] Yeah so um i uh i escaped the depths of a medical tyranny which were i mean essentially i literally was in the slums of coerced public housing where yeah you can leave the public housing if there's no one at the gun like with a gun at the door saying you can't leave but when you leave the people in the neighborhood they kind of act like you know oh well you should give us money or pay for this, that, or the other, and do all these kinds of...
[2:38] Hang on. These are complaints about your life as a whole. I'm sorry to be annoying, but I still need a specific thing that you would like to talk about that I can help you with.
[2:51] Okay.
[2:56] Yeah, I mean, how do you, earn money just fighting the good fight? I've been I mean, I was following religion and reading some stuff from Scott Adams recently that helped clarify some things at least from what he read about like it doesn't know what, um so that has helped me in some ways um however uh when it comes to, you know being face to face with people who are obviously not on the same page as me morally you know we just we just don't have the same values or we just don't think the same way, yeah you can i don't know i just i tend to walk away or maybe i'll wait to just, just you know to kind of distract myself or just okay so you started.
[4:07] With the question which was how do i make money and now i feel like we're rambling.
[4:11] Yes so.
[4:12] Is your question how do you make a living.
[4:16] Yeah how do you make a living uh yeah how do you make a living okay.
[4:19] And uh how old are you.
[4:22] I'm 35 35.
[4:23] Okay how have you made a living so far.
[4:29] Um the last job i had was making a dollar a day and then so i don't know if that would qualify as a living i mean they were feeding me and housing me and all that kind of stuff but they kicked me out after i confronted someone who i was about 90 sure had stolen something from uh we were sharing there was a room of five of us and i i'm sure this person was a was one of the thieves um in the room so i confronted him and i could tell like he was definitely shady knew something that you know that there was some he didn't he didn't he didn't want me here.
[5:08] Do you hear the rambling starting again.
[5:10] Yeah okay.
[5:12] So your last job was a dollar a day i think that could count as not particularly um a living wage um have you ever had a job that pays an hourly wage like a reasonable hourly wage.
[5:25] No not reasonable no okay.
[5:29] So is it the case that you've sort of suffered from mental illness or you have not participated in society as a whole because of something like that, or why would you be in your mid-30s and not ever really had a job?
[5:42] No, I've had, I mean, I've had jobs, I've had it where I was working even four jobs at one time and I was cooperating a business with someone and that was, we were making a lot of money, but that was when, you know, for a house, it was $600 a month for a two bedroom with a backyard and now for an apartment. And to even get a room share equation is very, very, very, very challenging. I don't know. It might seem i know there's a bit of an age difference between us but i've tried to i mean there was there were a few places that they say like everything on paper yeah well will you can rent here just you know fill out these boxes you know don't be a criminal all this kind of stuff and i would fill up checking all those boxes go to the place, and meet the landlord's property manager or whoever else and they would just i would wait Like, okay, they were talking about, well, you know.
[6:34] Hang on, hang on. Okay, so when I ask a question, you just have this conveyor belt of words that come out. Okay, do you remember what my question was?
[6:44] Yeah, yes. You asked if it was because I have mental illness or if there was.
[6:50] No, I asked you, like, oh, yeah, and you said you'd had, like, four jobs, so you've worked before and all of that, right?
[6:58] I mean, at one point.
[7:00] I'm just asking for confirmation. You told me that you'd had four jobs and you worked before, and then you were talking about your difficulties being a roommate, which is not related to the question that I asked. Like, if it's going to be a conversation, I need to ask questions and you need to answer them, not just talk about whatever you feel like, if that makes sense.
[7:18] Sure. No, that makes sense.
[7:20] Yeah, it's not a criticism. Again, it's just sort of what's needed for a conversation to happen.
[7:25] Okay so what areas would you say your skills are in your in your life in your economic life.
[7:36] I mean, I'm good at negotiation.
[7:39] I'm sorry, you're good at what?
[7:42] Negotiation.
[7:44] Really?
[7:45] Yeah.
[7:47] Okay.
[7:47] It's surprising to you. Well, it's just because.
[7:50] You know, you kind of talk on your own terms. And normally negotiation is a lot of listening and responding to issues. But okay, listen, I'm just meeting you for the first time. So I'm certainly happy to accept what you say. Okay, so you're good at negotiation. But negotiation in what area?
[8:07] Um just just negotiating from the point of, i know it's abstract but just reducing overall calamity i mean kind of like damage control type of thing okay.
[8:21] And have you been paid for your negotiation skills.
[8:23] Um not officially uh i don't know i don't know how you would i mean not for i didn't make a living doing it now.
[8:35] Okay. So when I ask you what your economic skills are, it's stuff you've been paid for.
[8:39] I'm just guessing.
[8:41] I'm sorry?
[8:42] I don't know. I just said, I'm guessing. I don't know. I'm, you know, it's kind of like the, the, you know, proof that I can't do it thing. I was kind of going by like, you know, I don't know if I can, but no one's really giving you evidence.
[8:53] You mean negotiation?
[8:56] Yeah. For negotiation.
[8:57] Okay. And so, uh, when was the last time you had a job and lived independently?
[9:07] Um, uh, around 2017.
[9:12] Okay. And, um, what's happened since then that you either don't have a job or are not living independently?
[9:22] Um, yeah. Main thing is that uh this is going to sound i mean always generally it sounds kind of obtuse to say but i got uh put on disability like i i get disability payments and they won't let me come off disability i went to you know the government that bills with it and i attempted to cancel my benefits and of course he was completely shocked that i wanted to do that and all that stuff and he kind of asked for clarification. I was like, no, I want to cancel them. And he went back to check with someone else. And he said that I, I could, I couldn't cancel them except only if I would pay them all that, all the quote unquote benefits back. And then I could cancel them. I would have to pay everything back.
[10:18] And so the only other way to quote unquote cancel your benefits is to have employment for nine months within a year, you have to be employed and have to, submit your wages every month and all that kind of stuff so there's a lot of, gateways or gatekeepers or whatever that are there you know so for example if you asked what happened, for example I tried to just find work and work without going you know the world was just like yeah I'll report my income but I don't want to you know because you have to you have to work with, who the government wants to work with or to find an employment so i was like no i'll just find my own job my own way, and so i kept doing that and just trying to find my own way and um you know people when they find out they can kind of you know read by language and stuff and when you read start reading stuff certain words will kind of pop out at you so you know people will either say oh he's going to feel bad for himself so now we can just you know like treat him like a baby or whatever however they I think.
[11:22] Okay, sorry. Why did you get put on disability?
[11:27] Um, uh, uh, there was a form I filled out. It's, it asked, um, it asked, you know, you had problems with, uh, you know, just, uh, just general, like, you know, some kind of mental problems with stuff. And I didn't agree with it. I was against it. And what were the.
[11:49] What were the mental problems that were being talked about?
[11:53] Um uh you know it was just like uh can't can't um.
[12:02] Uh there was a there was a questionnaire it was things about you know what what comes easy to you and what is hard to you and you know the bathing and grooming like kind of stuff was fine but um stuff like uh, uh what was it uh.
[12:20] Just having you know being able to work easily thinking or out to get you stuff there that was one of the main things that were, that stick out but I gave some detail about there was a box detail on about what you meant by it and I'm just you know thinking people are out to get you was one of the main qualifiers I think that they consider for, as the reason on whether you're granted or not um uh so yeah so um they asked me a question about, i think that answered what happened since 2017 that was that was the main thing ever since then um i did get a job after that um fast forward i don't know how far you want me to fast forward very quickly but fast forward to somewhat where i am now i i thought uh the judge sided with me that I didn't need, to be co-ordered on medication or anything and i was sufficiently grounded enough to be able to make my own decisions and all that kind of stuff so i didn't need to be coercively put on medication.
[13:34] Um so you know from there on what helped me with that by the way just to keep a little relishing there is um i did get a job while i was on disability and i just found the place randomly they were randomly hiring um and i just won and asked for a job and we had a very gut level.
[13:52] Positive interaction i was talking when i was talking with the manager so so from there i you know i got the job and i told them i was honest i said listen i just like you know i could work there longer you know and indeed like indeed i could but i just don't have the the the energy to do it um half asleep i can barely keep standing up it was it was a six it was about a six hour shift it was a summer shift and for the summertime they're doing six hour shifts uh four days a week and i was doing that and i was just very sluggish very tired and there were people i could see whoa like at least one or two people who are like you know eons above me and how fast they're working sometimes and i'm just like man i remember that's how i used to be before you know i was on all of my age for whatever so anyway so then um so i had this argument that i could use um in court and that's what i was focusing on because i knew the doctor was ben is to say oh well you know he needs all this help but if i could get the fact that i worked despite all the stuff he's saying which would dispel all the mess that he was creating in his whatever his academic background etc and, So that's what I did and whatever. So yes.
[15:09] Too much more than that doesn't matter. So now I just, I'm without a model, a particular model or path to follow.
[15:21] I just don't, I've applied to many places and it starts to feel like, I know you said feelings I don't want to ramble, It starts to feel as if I'm just possibly getting, you know, fished, you know, P-H-I-S-H-E-D fished, you know, information sites. Very careful now about, you know, going over everything and trying to, I mean, I'll give you another quick example. I went all the way to Wisconsin and rented a car, went all the way to a dairy farm. And i said you know i just said oh well you hire me and waited about 15 minutes in the parking lot for there were two people working there and the guy came out and said oh well you know i could tell he just wasn't really interested but he just told me to wait for emails from the website or contact hr whatever the heck and i did that but you know someone else just recently reached out but i had unsubscribed from their email messages i was like yeah well they you know so i don't know, And the thing is, I had an email that said that I'd stopped receiving funding. I passed a farming certification training. I mean, I was doing everything to get off the medication. That was my goal. And so, I mean, I did a certification for urban farming and passed that.
[16:49] I actually got paid for it too. and, so I just wanted to do something you know that I just want to do something where I see the fruits of my labor I get the self confidence of having achieved something and I've actually benefited, something you know there's a benefit to my existence if I'm not like a slonger whatever so, I get the confidence from that I just don't know and you know.
[17:24] I applied to aviation to build aircrafts or maintain the aircrafts, I knew someone who, again, no names, but I knew someone who, well, their father apparently was an aviation engineer. So I said, well, if they can do it, maybe I can flirt with that and see if, you know, I have a chance doing it. And I was watching videos and reading about it. And I said, it seems kind of dangerous, but I think, you know, if I worked my way up. But, you know, when I would go to the airports that I applied to for the aviation, I was just looking around me and I'm like, I don't think people here would take kindly to my type of person. So I stopped applying to those kinds of jobs, but they never responded anyway. I mean, I don't know how that's supposed to work. I mean, I'm a millennial, so I don't know. I hardly ever see millennials in any place that I go to. I don't know if it's the detail that I'm focusing on.
[18:34] Okay. I mean, I really find this conversation quite remarkable. And I just sort of wanted to, I mean, do you know there's somebody else on the line or do you just talk?
[18:44] Well, I just, I'm waiting. I'm not sure what you want to know. So I just.
[18:49] Well, then you ask me. You don't just talk and just keep talking and talking. I mean, I'm trying to help you into you want a job or something like that, then there have to be two people in the conversation. It's not just about you, just talking and talking and talking. Do you know what I mean? Like, help me understand that. What's going on in your mind that you're just talking and not asking, hey, is this helpful to you? Am I answering your question? What other information might you need from me? But you just talk.
[19:21] Well, I'll give it to you, Sri. I played your podcast at the last store I was at that I worked at, you know, the freedom, your freedom from your freedom main site.
[19:30] Okay. Well, hang on. What does that have to do with what I just said?
[19:34] Well, you said what was going on in your mind, so I was just telling you what I saw in my mind.
[19:39] No, because then you would have been talking about that. So this is not what's going on in your mind. Like, when you're talking, do you get a sense that there's somebody else who might want to have something to say, or do you just keep talking?
[19:58] I do. My goal when I was waiting for the hour or whatever, I said, I just need to shut up and listen and just like not say anything. That was what I said to myself.
[20:08] Okay.
[20:09] Just one or two words and just listen. And so, but when you ask me questions that I think I start to get, you know, I start to have all these implicit expectations that I'm not really aware of. So I just, um, I just sort of maybe ramble and digress.
[20:25] Okay. So your goal was to not talk too much, right?
[20:29] Yeah.
[20:29] Okay, so what happens to your goal? Okay, yeah, sorry, my apologies. So, yeah, so that's sort of my question, is that if you have a goal to not talk too much and then you end up talking too much, where do you think that comes from?
[20:50] I mean, I think of one particular person that comes from.
[20:54] Uh-huh.
[20:56] Uh there was a very egotistical person at the workplace i was at no no it's.
[21:04] Childhood no it's childhood it's not not that recent um tell me a little bit about your childhood.
[21:09] Okay um well i mean i was mainly in my room playing video games i mean uh my, my half sister uh would um, you know i wasn't even allowed to call her a stepsister i call her half sister now i wasn't allowed to call her a stepsister back then but she told me that she was my stepsister the, she's she's in another state now but you know i tried i've tried reaching out to her but yeah No.
[21:46] No, no, no. See, this is where things go wrong. What was I asking about?
[21:51] My childhood.
[21:52] Okay, so why are you telling me about stuff you're trying to do with your half-sister now in the present? Is that about your childhood?
[21:58] Oh, okay, yeah.
[21:59] So you've got to listen. Look, I'm really sorry, of course, that you were so isolated as a kid, so I'm just giving you some sort of conversational one-on-one stuff here. But you need to listen and focus your responses on what the other person is asking. And I'll try and do the same. So if I'm saying something that is not responsive to what you're saying, please tell me, right? It's mutual. But yeah, tell me a little bit more about your childhood and let's not get into the present.
[22:26] All right so i was in my room i mean i would for example um there was this, yeah i know you said no names there was this asian girl i think i think it was like fifth yeah fifth grade where um she said you know like it never rained or it never snowed in the throes never snowed where she was from all that stuff like everyone in the class was excited to talk to her and introduce her to new weather and different whatever just culture shit and around that time um there we were doing a project um at school that required that didn't require it but you know we were kind of friendly we're like oh exchange numbers and um there were these two, friendly asian girls i remember they were like kind of giddy about getting my phone number but you know it was it we were we it wasn't the age of puberty we weren't thinking that way we just it was just like kind of fun maybe semi-flirtation i don't know but it was just kind of fun just like talk about class a lot and so they called uh they called me one time and after that one time they called um uh my mother answered the phone and she just humiliated me like from that experience you know she kept talking about oh you have a girlfriend oh you have a girlfriend oh you're interested in girls all this stuff.
[23:48] And to pedal back before there, when I was in a thrift store, I remember very clearly touching a Hawaiian-looking shirt. They just call it Hawaiian. I don't know if they're familiar, but they call it Hawaiian shirt. It's like a break.
[24:05] Yeah, yeah, I know.
[24:07] Okay, so I felt the shirt, and it felt smooth. and when I touched that, my mom said, oh, where are you gay? Or I think it was my dad. I said, oh, where are you gay? Why do you like the feeling of clothes? Or whatever. So, you know, so it's just, I mean, I was happy. My memory was like, I was happy. I was giddy. I was angry at that point, but I didn't, I couldn't respond with anger because I didn't, like, where was I? What was I going to say? You know, if I talked to my dad, you know, he's He's not going to have a conversation. He's just going to try to punish me. Or, well, he would punish me. Do all these other kind of conniving tricks. I just didn't know what to do.
[24:57] I'm sorry. How were you punished?
[25:03] Yeah, as a kid, it was no sleepovers. Um it was um mainly no sleepovers was the biggest one for me at that that at that age range that that really affected my happiness um then there was um, uh there was uh, I mean, there was the implicit threat of just, you know, that the family is going to divorce, you know, if you cross any of these invisible tripwires that, you know, we can't talk about, and that'll be your fault.
[25:46] Sorry, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what that means. I mean, your parents said, if you talk about these topics, we're going to divorce each other, and it's your fault?
[25:54] No that's what my dad would say my dad would when no one was home when it was just me and him in the apartment my dad would say it's your fault it's going to be your fault to get divorced because you're telling your your.
[26:09] Your mother, these things that I'm telling you and you're not supposed to tell you know he would just he would expect me to keep what he would tell me or force me to listen to secret And, uh, I didn't want that, uh, I wouldn't call it a response. I didn't, I didn't want that implication. I just didn't, I just didn't want that for myself. I didn't, I mean, I didn't want, I didn't think it was healthy for anyone really. So I just, I didn't, I didn't want to accept it. So, I mean, I, I, when I would fight back, you know, like you would mention his mother, um, about stuff that she would do to him. And I would ask him about his I remember one time I asked him about his mom and he said don't you ever effing say my mother's name or ask about my mother ever again and it was a complete whiplash he didn't think about it he just reacted, so he had that kind of, he had that kind of sort of, foolish slash.
[27:17] Violent streak within him that you know so you kind of you just had to read you had to just read what was, acceptable to the point of i mean non-existing except just uh, just play games and zone out and hope that you know you'll make it to the end of the night i mean that was kind of pretty much i mean there was you asked does that make sense.
[27:45] Yeah yeah well done well done so um you have a half-sister is that what was that in terms of your parents marriages.
[27:55] Oh, well, this is a huge can of worms, too. It was from my mom's previous relationship. She was her first, I think they were boyfriend, girlfriend, I don't really know. Well, they were of age. But anyway, he was a very mean person. And he actually, I found out, at least my mom reported later, that he ended up killing someone who reported him while he was in prison for a crime that he committed.
[28:23] So this is your mother's?
[28:25] Ex-boyfriend yeah who was who was my half sister's um father yeah so uh he he was um he had uh told, um this person that oh if you report any you know this crime that i've committed after i get out of jail for the crime i already committed whatever i'm going to kill you and i I guess they were on a boat or something when he said that And maybe the guy didn't believe him or whatever, So he had Reported him anyway while he was in prison Jail whatever and when he got out He had cold bloodedly murdered him and now he's Serving life in prison, Apparently that's what was reported I mean I believe it but I don't know, Sorry.
[29:16] That's a Terrifying situation to be in.
[29:21] Yeah, okay but.
[29:26] Your parents weren't violent towards you right they just they threatened you with like no sleepovers and stuff like that right.
[29:31] I mean overall overall that's correct i mean they did uh enact some some forms of violence um we're talking about child of course right, right yeah yeah I mean my mom she she punched me in the knees and legs they call it Charlie horses, it was something similar to that and then so yeah and then yeah, Sorry.
[30:18] Go ahead.
[30:19] Against me, my dad did whip my half-sister. That was something that was a very big, sort of life-changing moment. At least, you know, my half-sister, she ran away and everything, and they caught her, and then...
[30:49] Sorry, how old was she when she ran away?
[30:52] She was 17. She was soon going to be 18. She was 17, but she didn't want to wait anymore. And, um, you know, she had stolen the, um, she had stolen my mom's car i think at that point and went to someone from high school who said that she would provide her with a safe refuge you know so she won't have to worry about physical violence and my parents went i mean they took me along with them just sort of you know provide a quote-unquote lesson of course and um we all went there and uh my dad knocks on the door made himself you know, made himself available and then we just ended up forcing himself into the building and pretty much dragged my half-sister out of the building, and you know all the way on the way home he was just rallying, rallying up what he was going to do to her when.
[31:55] When he took her when he took her when he took her home took us home and we were in this and you know, because I know people think of an apartment spell. We were the only one in the apartment. It was a three, four apartment, but there was no neighbors under underneath us or below us when this occurred. So there weren't really, and the people next door from us all spoke Spanish. So I don't, and I don't think they were from the country. So it was really like, you know, this, this there was there was no one who could you know be an enlightened witness or like you know um so anyway um uh you know the police did uh i i ran away after that um a little bit after that you know when my um my grandma on my mom's side was having a funeral she had actually according i mean according to other relatives in the family they say that she died even though she was you retirement. She wasn't having an official job, but they said it was because she worked too much. She was just constantly busy doing too much, taking care of everyone. I think she had a heart attack at 66 years old.
[33:15] It was a funeral that we're all going to, and I didn't want to be seen. I didn't think of it then. I just didn't want to be seen with my parents and have to put on this fake display of love after this was shortly after that instant you know with my with them hitting using my my sister and i so so um so i didn't want to put on the show you know so i just ran away and um i didn't have to uh i don't remember what happened there right now but is this sort of um is this sort of fill in some blanks for you or yeah.
[33:54] Yeah go ahead.
[33:58] So then anyway so then uh the uh the next thing is that um, Um, you know, I, I did get a, um, I did get a, oh, I, um, I'm kind of rewinding now. I, I had a girlfriend also. This is my first girlfriend. She was a, um, she was, uh, again, I know I'm kind of scattering here, but she was a cheerleader in middle school. Um, and everyone was like, you know, this is, wow, you know, nobody can touch her. Like you know yeah right you know no one can and i had a um uh sort of pal slash proxmanship whatever you want at the time i considered a friend um who uh he was already you know they were a boyfriend and girlfriend at one point and um he ended up helping me.
[34:57] Become uh her boyfriend and so i um so i was um i was her boyfriend for a while and then uh you know she she had a rocky history this is what kind of doesn't make sense to me is yeah it's like people say oh well you come from i i assume you get expectations sometimes or you come from a two-parent household so you know you have easier than me you know i have you know raised by a single mother or you know step down with this definitely that for some reason all the relationships i've had with any kind of relationship with female if you can call it relationship was I can't think of anyone who came from a stable or at least a two-family household. So with this girlfriend, she had a stepdad. I remember the stepdad would say, when I came to visit her in the summertime or whatever it was, oh, he has Frankenstein veins. And then I went out with her to the movies, and I came back. Frankenstein veins. I had these veins in my forehead that you could see.
[36:05] Oh, Frankenstein veins. Okay, sorry. I thought, okay, got it. Okay. Okay.
[36:12] Yeah so um so uh so i went to um so i went to the movies with her you know and we made out and stuff and it was kind of gross i think i had um i had a i had bit in a um a neon glow light or something and it got in my mouth and we still made out anyway and we're both like kind of spitting your eye was spitting on it anyway so you know he um he brought us or he brought the stepfather brought me back home and you know he asked me if i was scared like if you know we're watching a horror movie or we're planning to watch a horror movie and he asked me if i get scared of movies and i just said quite frankly yes you know like sometimes i get scared of a movie and pretty much from then on he just kind of considered me you know like not not the material that was right for her i guess in his mind that's kind of how i i would seem that the box clicked for him because i simply because you know i would i'm put on this blavado or whatever you know like you know nothing scares me whatever i don't know what he expected but i could tell that he didn't i mean ever since then he didn't i don't think he talked to me or he certainly didn't give me a ride or anything like that after that and you know she so she actually i actually um would walk all the way to her um to her house and at one point um i had hidden a bunch of condoms behind pokemon bars just tell me if you can't hear what i'm saying i can hear how old are.
[37:39] You at this point.
[37:41] Okay um uh i was around uh definitely teenager around 13 or something at least 13 probably 13 and you're hiding condoms.
[37:52] Yeah maybe it was too soon i mean we'll you know we know about the stress anyway yeah yeah, i mean yeah so this was this was obviously you know this i'm just saying this was before the cultural wars and all that so it there wasn't you know oh it was a you know you know it wasn't this kind of sense you know like you have to you have to be gay or you have to have on it was just like oh well i just want to have on them just in case the moment arises that's all like so i hit him behind pokemon cards and i hit him in the closet in the room i was in same same apartment and my dad had found them and thrown them all out and my mom said uh oh um you know you shouldn't do that you you know you shouldn't do that you should um you know at least he's thinking about the future you know he cares about the future you know he's not just trying to knock someone up or whatever.
[38:42] And so you know that kind of um i mean it was you know obviously as a 13 year old the way you think you don't really think that far ahead so it was it did strike a blow but that wasn't the problem the problem was um uh how they responded to this point was that i had walked all the way to the same girl's house which was very far and there were many bullies and people that i had to fight avoid to get there and so i would get there and um at least this one time i was making plans to go there and i had you know there i mean again i'm just telling you frankly uh her her uh okay i do.
[39:23] Need to point to the story and i need the story to conclude because this is just going on and on so just get to the point if you can thank you.
[39:29] Yeah the point the point was i mean i mean i just wanted to be alone with her in the basement and just, just, you know, hold each other and talk, even that would have been enough. But, um, I mean, um, you know, my, my mom was just like, no, no women, no women, you know, no, you can't have a girlfriend. You can't go over a girl's house, you know, nothing. And then my dad was the same way. You know, you can't have girlfriends over. There were several times where there was another, there was another girl who I wanted to have over. And no matter what, you would just say.
[40:05] No, still need the point of the story, bro.
[40:08] Yeah. I mean, the point is.
[40:11] Is, um, No, like what happened? I mean, why, why are you telling me this? Right. Cause I'm asking about your childhood and that's not like everything that happened in your childhood. It's everything that happened that has, you know, some domino or ripple effect up to the present. So what was the conclusion of this that has lasted with you to adulthood?
[40:31] I mean, I, I had to keep my, my girlfriend, my girlfriend, a secret. That she was sleeping over from my father.
[40:42] Sorry, your girlfriend was sleeping over at your house?
[40:47] When I was an adult. Yeah, I was 18.
[40:50] We were just talking about 13. How am I supposed to know that you're now talking about an adult?
[40:57] I don't know. I didn't think of that. Okay.
[41:03] Is there a conclusion or a point or a moral to the girl and the Pokemon cards and the condoms and the bullies?
[41:15] Not that I can think of right now. I mean, they could be.
[41:17] Why do you think you're telling me this then?
[41:23] I mean, I've been looking for a girlfriend for a while, and the last time I asked out a girl, her friend had, I think her, I can't verify, but I think they were in the room together in a building, in a college.
[41:38] Okay, hang on, hang on, hang on. Why are you telling me this now?
[41:44] Because you're asking if there's a value or moral or some type of instruction that you can get out of this.
[41:50] Because i'm skeptical of your jump around story time so i if you just start another story i don't know how it relates so if you could just do me a favor and say oh so the moral of the story i think is and it's shown by this as opposed to just telling me a new story because i just feel like i'm kind of dragged along behind your stories like a guy tied behind a pickup truck so to speak on a gravel road so um so how did things conclude with when you were 13 i.
[42:24] Think it was to.
[42:25] No no no no i think right because you were there right i don't have any other reference point so you were going to this girl's house last i heard and there were bullies along the way and and you had condoms, and then you wanted to cuddle with her in the basement or something and what happened? What's the end of the story?
[42:52] The end of the story is she cheated on me.
[43:01] Okay. She cheated on you. Is that related to you going to her house that night or something else?
[43:09] Something else.
[43:11] Okay, so you just walk into her house and then we switch to she cheated on me. There's no conclusion to that part of the story, which is fine. I just want to make sure I understand.
[43:24] I mean, I know where that part leads next when I walk into the house, but I mean, does that matter?
[43:29] How am I supposed to know whether it matters or not? It's just Dory.
[43:33] I mean, that's the thing is we had these fun secrets, you know, like we would go to her.
[43:40] Okay, hang on, hang on, hang on. I don't know what fun secrets is about. I'm just being rigorous with you, right? I don't know what fun secrets has to do with anything.
[43:48] Well we would go to your her grandma's house and we would sneak you know like an oatmeal cookie or something and then we'd go to the park and just joke and laugh and walk around and in the park by the pond and pick up rocks whatever just walk around and talk.
[44:02] Okay so you had fun when you were 13, and how old were you when she cheated on you?
[44:12] It was only, I mean, like three or three. I was close to four. I had to be around definitely past 14, I'd say.
[44:28] Okay, so how long had you been going out when she cheated on you?
[44:33] I mean we we had periods where we didn't talk for a while but.
[44:37] How long how how long had you been going out roughly i don't need all the cheese swiss cheese details was it a week a month six months a year just roughly i'd.
[44:51] Say about six months.
[44:52] Okay so six months and you said it was on again off again so how much of those six months were you actually boyfriend girlfriend.
[45:04] Probably four and a half months.
[45:06] Okay and were you kissing hand holding I mean what was your romantic relationship.
[45:16] Making out hand holding.
[45:20] Okay so and were you exclusive like you were exclusive boyfriend girlfriend when she cheated on you.
[45:30] When she cheated yes.
[45:31] Okay and did you break up with her after she cheated on you 100 okay and then what happened in terms of dating in your mid-teens or later teens.
[45:48] No dates.
[45:50] So was that your last girlfriend? Was when you were 13 or 14?
[45:56] In terms of being a minor, yes.
[45:59] Okay. What about adulthood?
[46:01] I mean, I did... Hold on, let me correct myself. I did have a one time... I did have a small kissing session with one girl.
[46:12] Let's not count that. So what about in adulthood? What's your longest relationship been as an adult? romantically?
[46:23] I mean, if you can call it romantic, I would say three years.
[46:29] Why would that be if you can call it romantic?
[46:34] It was a very calculating sort of strategic thing more than, you know, we're just kind of like actors. I mean, we're both kind of like actors playing of art rather than...
[46:47] I have no idea what that means, bro. Come on, meet me in the middle here. How am I supposed to know what that means at all? You've got to reach over to where other people don't know what you're talking about, right? You can't just use the language that makes sense to you if nobody else knows what you're talking about. So what do you mean? Three years, but barely romantic? You didn't kiss, you didn't hold hands, were you friends? I mean, roommates, what do you mean?
[47:20] We started out online um we would chat on facebook her her friends referenced me saying you know i was cute and funny and like kind of stuff um just the boring stuff you know now but anyways so i would um you know so that's that's how she got to i mean i saw you know she saw some of my youtube videos she said the same thing on youtube she said you know there's a particular part and i actually i guess neither here nor there but anyway so i she said on one of the videos she looked at all my videos and she said that oh i liked your expression that she put a time stamp i saw it was kind of an embarrassing moment but you know but anyway so um.
[48:18] So yeah so um we just would exchange um, emails and call each other and you know she wanted me to save her from uh her mother's new boyfriend who became her husband and, I wanted to kind of be saved from I mean we had this quote that, that I coined and that would really kind of wake us both up from our misery which was let me help you help let me help me help you help me, which is looking back was very codependent um But anyway, so...
[49:08] So, um, so yeah, we had this sort of mutual, this mutual plan and sort of plan of positivity in our mind. Anyway, so, you know, I would call her and we would chat. She came up to visit me and, um, you know, she had her brother who, um, supposedly was in the private military or something. And you couldn't have his face or anything published on the internet or any of his information published on the internet. Apparently, that's what his family would tell me. So anyway, his mom still posted his image on the internet and he came back. But the reason I bring that up is because I was supposed to meet him.
[50:01] Um supposedly she uh my girlfriend we came girlfriend boyfriend she she had sent cookies, to his house and we were supposed to meet and just that was kind of like a reason to meet like oh you know you cook this i guess i don't know but um so i would make plans you know and i went to a um i went to get a um what is it a uh one of those bands you put on your wrists oh it's like a cord military cord or something i forget what they call it oh a paracord that's what it is there was a there was a military thrift store and so i got this paracord supposedly it's like you know you can use this bungee cord you can use it to whatever tie things up or something breaks, so so now i was kind of like planning my mind's highly okay like i'm gonna meet your brother and he apparently has a degree in criminal justice and all this kind of stuff. He's just that and the other. So...
[51:03] So yeah, I know I'm wobbling around here, but another thing that we shared, one thing that kind of got me, I guess, kind of looking back, I kind of feel like a sucker now. But she showed me her home video of when she was a very young child. I mean, very young, not even like a child, like three or four years old. I think she said she was three or something. and that's when her father left at the same time she said is that uh she um her brother there it was christmas time and her brother every time she would like excitedly gleefully have some kind of emotional expression of positivity her brother would always say something negative to her like oh this isn't about you it's like he would pick up a present and like look for the person's name and then sort of hesitate and then say his name or someone else's name.
[52:02] Okay, I still need you to move your stories along, bro.
[52:05] Okay. All right.
[52:09] So how old were you when you were dating this girl?
[52:13] 18.
[52:14] Okay. So you met online, you went back and forth, you were slightly romantic, and then how did it end?
[52:27] Well i know i told you online but just to correct what you said we actually apparently we met in english class and i think that's actually true i had um changed schools and i was new to the class the details.
[52:43] Of the beginning what did i just ask for how did it end right now okay so maybe you met before online that doesn't particularly matter sorry if i got it wrong so how did it end.
[52:59] Ended in divorce.
[53:01] Oh, you were married. I'm so sorry. I thought she was girlfriend. Okay. Okay, so how did it end? So, how long were you together before you got married?
[53:17] Let's see. We got married on, we got married on 1-11-2011. So, I mean, it's about a year and a half.
[53:33] Okay. And then what happened in the marriage? That it broke apart?
[53:42] Um, there are many, many factors. I mean, the biggest thing for me was that she had kidnapped the baby, our baby from the hospital. That was the biggest thing for me. Um, and so, um.
[54:03] It's funny because you'll go on, on endless details about things that aren't that important. and then you're just moving on from your wife kidnapping a baby from the hospital. Like, what is that?
[54:17] Yeah, I mean, it was a, I mean, here's the story. I mean, I had planned what I did with my family to have to do with her family, you know? My family, I had planned to do with my family to do with her family. I had left my family.
[54:34] That is not a, I don't know what that means, sorry.
[54:37] No i know i'm trying to expand you stop interrupting i can expand but i understand the conversation uh so i i left my parents i considered them toxic etc and i wanted to leave, i was trying to convince her that there's a better future for us without her family her direct family in the picture and so that was my goal when i was with her was to bring her along the process that i was going to and to see forth through that i that i you know have a successful life and that she comes forth with me that was my plan despite you know the thing is is that, i know this is interpretation land but i i think part possibly okay what is that you.
[55:20] Remember my question bro.
[55:22] Yeah you fill fill you one of the details because that was i.
[55:27] Asked about the story of her taking the baby from the hospital.
[55:32] Well, yeah, she...
[55:33] Can you tell me that story? This other thing about family separation and so on, I don't know how it's related.
[55:42] She had uh we were at the hospital right and i was uh you know we i we're talking about you know medication all that kind of stuff and i was like let's not do the epidural i mean you can make it through it it'll be fine okay hang on hang.
[56:00] On so she was pregnant.
[56:01] She was pregnant okay.
[56:04] Did you mention that or did i miss that.
[56:05] I didn't mention it okay.
[56:08] So what you gotta tell me the story so it makes some kind of sense, man. Okay, so she got pregnant, you're at the hospital, and you're going to give birth, right?
[56:20] Right.
[56:21] Okay. Got it. So then what?
[56:27] So then she calls her sister, and she tells me, oh, go downstairs on the first floor and get food for us, and, you know, the hospital food. And when I get back upstairs you know i can tell her mood is really off you know she's very kind of hidden like she, you know there's something cooking there but um my thing was that uh was to keep her her mother was uh her mother didn't want us her mother didn't want us to be together okay so is.
[57:08] This specifically related to her taking the baby?
[57:15] Yes, because she fled to her mother's house afterwards.
[57:19] Okay, can you tell me the story of her taking the baby? Not whether her mother wanted you and her to be together, but what happened that she took a baby?
[57:39] I mean, that's the thing is I don't want to beat myself up over it. I've gone through this many times. I had assaulted her when she was pregnant.
[57:48] You had what?
[57:49] I had assaulted her when she was pregnant.
[57:52] Oh, my gosh. What do you mean? You beat her up?
[57:57] No, I mean.
[57:59] Sorry, do you have a different definition of the word assault than I do?
[58:03] No, I mean, it was assault. And I told her, I told her point blankly, you know, whatever, whatever consequences I have to face are fine. You know, it should never have happened. You know, it should never happen again. You shouldn't be afraid. You know, our baby shouldn't have to go through this. That's my fault. Let's, you know, let's get through this. And she wanted to keep it a secret. And she, and, you know, it, it just, everything sort of fell apart. I, um, I told everyone who I thought was.
[58:35] Okay, are you going to tell me the story of how she took the baby or not? I don't know what the hell's going on in this conversation.
[58:41] So that, I mean, we've talked about it before, Stefan. That's why I'm mentioning it.
[58:47] I'm sorry, we've talked about what before?
[58:50] We've talked about this situation where, you know, I just was in a different residence when I talked about it to you. I, um, I had told you, uh, that, um, that I had punched my ex-wife while she was pregnant.
[59:06] I'm sorry. Are you saying that we've done a call in before?
[59:09] We've done a call in before. Correct.
[59:11] Okay. Do, do I know that?
[59:15] I don't know. I mean, because I use my...
[59:18] You haven't mentioned it. I've done thousands of call-ins. When did you and I do the call-in?
[59:24] I think 2023.
[59:26] Okay, so a couple of years ago. And you haven't mentioned that, right?
[59:33] No.
[59:34] Am I supposed to recognize your voice on the thousands of call-ins I've done?
[59:38] No.
[59:40] So why do you seem annoyed with me that I don't remember this thing that you never told me about? You didn't email me and say, Stef, we've done a call in before and I'd like to follow up or catch up or anything like that. Okay, that's fine. Neither here nor there. So have you told me the story before of how your wife took a baby?
[1:00:02] I think I did. Yeah, I think in that call, I mentioned it, but you were focused on, which I agree with is a big concern that I have. You were focused on the fact that I had a self-aware. I think it was very shocking and startling to you.
[1:00:16] Okay. So tell me the story again, just briefly, and just tell me the story of why would she take a baby? What does that mean?
[1:00:27] It means that she's a strong, independent woman.
[1:00:31] No, no, no. Tell me the story of why she would take a baby. I mean, did she have a baby? In the hospital? Okay, so she had your baby. And why would she take a baby if she had a baby?
[1:00:52] She was in fear of her life.
[1:00:55] Okay, do you think that explains anything to me? Okay, so do things that explain things to me. I mean, oh, we don't have to have the conversation, but I just, when you say things that don't explain anything, it's annoying.
[1:01:13] Her brother is very controlling. He showed up out of nowhere. He came to the hospital and was like, oh, I know exactly where to go. I know exactly where everything is. I planned to hold the baby and everything I was reading on how to help a baby develop empathy, whatever. And he had just took over and then just started holding her. And everyone in the room held the baby except me. I was the only one who didn't. And nobody cared. The hospital staff was like smiling and didn't care. And nobody gave a rat's ass. So, I mean, it was just, you know, I had lost the game, the ground game, you know, of both.
[1:02:05] Okay. So are you saying that she left with her own baby, not that she left with another baby?
[1:02:12] Correct.
[1:02:13] Okay. so the kidnapping you're referring to is her leaving the hospital with your baby and not like you didn't have access to the baby after that is that right.
[1:02:27] Correct i didn't have the means to get there i mean if i would walk there she would it was a very far walk but i still would walk there i could walk there is the hospital no to her mom's address.
[1:02:40] I don't know that we're dealing with a new address now. Okay. So your wife went to your mother-in-law's place and it was a long walk for you.
[1:02:52] Very, very long. And that wasn't the reason I didn't go because I knew what would happen. It would have been a waste of effort. She would have just taken her vehicle, gone somewhere else.
[1:03:03] So she being your wife? correct okay so if you had shown up at your mother-in-law's place your wife would have left in a car with the baby correct okay so the marriage was functionally over at this point, correct okay and then was that when you got divorced.
[1:03:29] No, I didn't want to initiate divorce. I was very, so, no, it wasn't when we got divorced. She, you know, it was evident we were separated and we weren't going to be married. And I knew she would file the motion to divorce or whatever did on her behalf. She used the child tax credits. And I know I'm skipping around again, but.
[1:03:59] I mean, so she divorced you.
[1:04:04] She did. Yeah.
[1:04:05] Okay. And you've had no contact with the baby. Is that right?
[1:04:10] Um, during the divorce proceedings I did, um, I was fighting the best I can, but it got to the point where, a lawyer had asked that I, the only, you know, that if he were to help me, he would need a retainer fee of $5,000. And I just couldn't come up with that money. I used pro bono lawyers, what they call them, where I was in. And, you know, I did all the paperwork I could myself, reading everything and filing everything. You know, I went to a cellular store and asked for records of text messages and everything because I'm not very good at, saving tumultuous conversations and all that kind of stuff. So they said they couldn't provide them without court documents. So then I got to the point where I was watching documentaries, and I was at a very low point. So I just... I didn't know what to do. So.
[1:05:28] I mean, my, uh, my mom used to, you know, treat me like the, the gifted, you know, the story from Alice Miller, the trauma of the gift of child. That was kind of like how it was for me growing up. So pretty much my, my half sister became the new, because she had three kids and, and um you know was in a quote successful relationship like at least they didn't separate and you know all this kind of nonsense, they were doing and they still are they're doing from my understand financially well and have their own house and everything and um at least well in that regard so, now she's in the spotlight and um, you know that that part of my that was easily fit into is you know like oh you know I just I'm gonna do better, than the other people when was the last time.
[1:06:36] You saw your child.
[1:06:39] Uh I guess six or nine months old, something like that.
[1:06:52] Okay, got it. And do you know why your wife didn't want you seeing your child? Was it because of the assault or something else?
[1:07:03] Oh, I mean, it was just because of what my existence stood for. I mean...
[1:07:09] No, no, come on. That doesn't explain anything, what my existence stood for. Why didn't your wife want you seeing your child? I'm not saying she was right, but what was her thinking?
[1:07:20] I mean, her thinking was that I'm going to make her family look bad. I'm going to make her, that I'm going to taint her image somehow.
[1:07:35] Well, how would you do that in her mind?
[1:07:40] Well, in her mind, she wanted to be, she wanted to be the leader. She wanted to be known as, you know, being the reason for whatever successes there was. It was sort of a vanity thing, but, you know, I understand giving people credit for things and all that, but it wasn't reciprocal. We were, I'm trying to answer your question, I promise. We were doing couples counseling.
[1:08:06] No, no, but what was her reasoning? What was her thought? You said she was afraid you might make her family look bad, but why? What would you do in her mind? Again, I'm not saying she's right. But what would you do that would make her family look bad?
[1:08:24] Treat her well?
[1:08:27] So she left you and kept you away from your daughter because of her concern that you would treat her well?
[1:08:35] Correct.
[1:08:36] Does that seem even remotely believable to you?
[1:08:42] Yes.
[1:08:42] After you assaulted her, she was just terrified you were going to treat her well?
[1:08:48] No, not her, but our daughter that was going to treat our daughter well.
[1:08:53] Okay, so she was worried that you'd be a good dad?
[1:08:57] Yes.
[1:08:59] Again, does that seem believable to you?
[1:09:04] I mean, I think... I mean, it seems somewhat believable. I mean, it could be plausible to my ability. My part.
[1:09:16] Hang on. You were in your early 20s at this point, right?
[1:09:20] Yeah.
[1:09:21] How the ever-loving hell would you know how to be a good dad? I mean, you had a bad dad yourself, for which I sympathize, right? You had a bad mom, for which I sympathize. You had a really terrible, I don't know, not that you had a relationship, but father to your half-sister. And you had dated a woman who herself had a bad family, your wife, from what I can tell, or what you've said, had a bad family, how on earth would you know how to be a good dad? And I say this with sympathy, not with some criticism, but how would you be a good dad with no examples and no theories?
[1:10:05] I don't know. I didn't want to be a father. That's the thing.
[1:10:08] Okay. So does that answer my question? If I say, how would you be a good dad? Because you said my ex-wife was frightened I would be a good dad. And I say, well, how could you be a good dad? You say, well, I didn't want to be a dad. That means it's even less likely you're going to be a good dad, right?
[1:10:25] Well, I mean, at the time I didn't. I knew I wasn't ready.
[1:10:28] Of course, at the time. I understand it's at the time. How does that help you be a good father if you don't even want to be a father and you've had no good examples?
[1:10:42] Well, there's no, I didn't have an answer.
[1:10:45] Okay, so it's probably not true that your ex-wife was simply terrified that you'd be a really good dad. It sounds like Cope, to be honest. Why didn't she want you around her child?
[1:11:16] Yeah, she was afraid. I mean, I think she was afraid that...
[1:11:30] Come on, say it. Say it. What are you saying?
[1:11:34] She was afraid that I'd be too angry to handle it.
[1:11:37] Yeah, you'd be violent.
[1:11:39] Yeah.
[1:11:40] Because you grew up in a violent household. And you were violent towards her. I mean, is that wrong?
[1:11:53] Hmm?
[1:11:54] I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that.
[1:11:57] No, it's not wrong. The thing is, though, is I saw the train tracks. I understand now, though, how I messed up. It's just I didn't understand until like about a week ago.
[1:12:07] Hang on, hang on, hang on. So you just told me that your wife kept you away from your child because you were afraid she'd be, that she was afraid you'd be a really good dad, right? Now, we've just kind of reversed that, and you're going off on some other tangent now. I mean, one of the things I've been scanning for is any emotions that you have about any of this. So, we just kind of reversed an entire thought process you've had for almost 15 years about the breakup of your marriage and why your wife took your child. And i guess i mean isn't this a big reversal on what you thought before.
[1:12:54] That i had anger issues.
[1:12:55] No you thought or you told me not five minutes ago that your ex-wife kept your child away from you because she was frightened you'd be a really good father and now we've kind of reversed that to the point where she may have and of course she's not here we don't know for sure but she may have kept your child away from you because you had anger issues and had been violent. Isn't that a big reversal?
[1:13:34] I'm getting confused. I mean, 15 years is a long time, so I'm just getting...
[1:13:51] Sorry, what are you confused about?
[1:13:55] I mean, I don't know... anything about my ex-wife anymore. I know, to the best of my ability, that she's still the guardian of my daughter. I don't want to wrangle you with my intellectual side. I don't want to say too much. I don't know what question I'm answering or if I'm answering the right question.
[1:14:25] Okay, yeah, I mean, you can maybe listen back to this, and I've tried explaining it two or three times, and if it's confusing to you, I don't think a fourth time will help. Okay, so is there anything else that I can help you with before the end of the conversation?
[1:14:48] I mean, can you talk? No. Okay. I mean, how do you find out if your daughter is safe? That's the main thing.
[1:15:03] I'm not sure what you're asking me. I mean, I assume you'd be in contact with your ex-wife and ask her, or you'd, I don't know, I mean, you'd see if you can find her on social media, or, I mean, I don't know.
[1:15:23] That's the thing, though. She got a restraining order against me for sending a piggy bank to her house. She had the piggy bank tested for chemicals, told the police I was trying to kill her. And the police came to my apartment, knocked on my door very loudly and intrusively. I opened the door. They tell me, you know, did you send this? Of course, it's my address. It's my name. You know, why?
[1:15:48] Okay. So I don't, I don't want to get into more of these details. How long ago was that?
[1:15:53] I was like a uh that was like three or four years ago but.
[1:15:59] Okay so i i look i i'm a philosopher i have no idea how you would deal with these sort of legal issues i'm not a lawyer i'm not a specialist in this kind of area i'm not a social worker so i mean i assume you would talk to a lawyer and try and get some legal advice about whether you could have any contact uh if the restraining order is in place. Obviously, I would respect that if I were in your shoes. So you're asking me a question which a moral philosopher cannot answer. So is there anything else that I can help you with before we end the conversation?
[1:16:44] Can you help me start again?
[1:16:48] Well, I don't have a time machine, and I can't rewind your life. So is there anything else?
[1:16:56] Can you help me? I mean, I read your book, Essential Philosophy, twice, I think. I read it every single word the last time. And it says if you read a book, it cures you of insanity. And it seemed to detract the right people when I was reading it.
[1:17:24] Sorry, I don't think I've ever said if you read a book, it cures you of insanity. Neither am I calling you insane. So I'm not sure what that has to do with. Yeah, I mean, in general, I would say that it's important in life to go through sort of a rigorous self-examination. And I don't think you're overly self-critical. And I think we all have things in our lives that we can criticize ourselves about. And you've made some good decisions. You've made some bad decisions. And I think it's important to evaluate them objectively and without trying to shield yourself from negative feelings. That's sort of been my experience, that I have to look at the good decisions I've made, have to look at the bad decisions I've made, and try and find a way to evaluate them in some sort of objective fashion. And I think you'll get when you listen back to this that when you talk about your life and look, massive sympathies for what was inflicted upon you as a child. I was just terrible, terrible stuff. And I'm really sorry about that. And I have a lot of sympathy, really bottomless sympathy for what you suffered as a child. I think as you sort of move forward, you tend to say things wherein you're not really to blame. You didn't do things wrong. you know like the.
[1:18:44] You just weren't allowed to hold your baby and your wife took her away from you because she was worried you'd be a really good dad and maybe make her look bad like there's a lot of I think.
[1:19:01] A slant a slant to the stories which tend to have you not have made bad decisions but, You know, like I just sent a piggy bank to my daughter and next thing you know, and listen, I don't know the details of that and I don't understand the laws of it. So, you know, this is all with a grain of salt regarding my own, you know, utter lack of expertise in this area. But you seem to say, you know, I'm a victim and I didn't make any bad decisions. And listen, every single person in life has made bad decisions. Lord knows I have, right? So I think it's important to just be really rigorous with that kind of stuff and say, yeah, you made some bad decisions. And if your wife is some sort of really terrible person, then you made a bad decision to get married to her and to have a child with her. And if she's not such a bad person, then you made bad decisions in how you behaved towards her.
[1:20:02] And I think it's just really important to be self-critical because it's really tough to start making better decisions unless we can kind of nakedly look at the bad decisions we've made and evaluate them objectively and try and learn our very best from them, if that makes any sense.
[1:20:20] Yeah that makes sense.
[1:20:21] Okay good well i think that's the best advice that i can give you and i really do appreciate the conversation today and i hope that you come out of this again with my very very deepest sympathies for what happened with you as a child which of course was not at all your fault and for which you should receive a lot of sympathy but you know especially in your mid-30s, I think it might be time to start being a little bit more rigorous in your evaluation of your adult decisions. And again, the decisions you made when you were married, late teens, early 20s, that's, again, very excusable. But I think it's maybe time to have a sort of clearer eye, a more objective view about the decisions you've made and the sort of pluses and minuses of those. Well, I really do appreciate that. Thank you so much for your time. You don't happened to remember the number of the show we did before did you or the rough date.
[1:21:10] It was never published.
[1:21:13] Oh okay got it got it all right well i really appreciate your time and i hope you'll let me know how things are going and i i hope that you'll accept my my very best wishes for for life going forward thank you thanks man bye.
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