In this thought-provoking episode, philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages in a deep discourse with a caller named Jordan, who seeks to explore the concept of forgiveness from a Christian perspective. They dissect the complexities of forgiveness, examining its implications for personal responsibility and societal justice. Jordan shares his insights on Christian forgiveness, asserting that it does not absolve individuals of accountability, especially when one party has wronged another. He emphasizes the importance of repentance as a dualistic element in the forgiveness process, arguing that true forgiveness should involve both parties acknowledging their roles in the conflict and striving for reconciliation.
Stefan challenges Jordan’s views by questioning the inherent emotional weight of forgiveness when the sinner fails to show genuine remorse. They discuss examples of severe wrongdoing, such as rape and murder, delving into the moral obligation of society to ensure that justice is served. Stefan outlines the contradiction present in the idea of forgiving a wrongdoer if others still enact justice against them, thus providing a philosophical examination of how forgiveness can sometimes lead to society failing to protect its members from harm.
As the conversation progresses, both Stefan and Jordan grapple with the tension that arises when forgiveness intersects with the necessity of legal repercussions. They reflect on how societal norms and systems can complicate the application of forgiveness. Jordan reveals his frustration with the state of some communities, highlighting how a lack of accountability can lead to a perpetual cycle of dependency and irresponsibility. He passionately argues for a rediscovery of personal responsibility and community integrity, urging a return to deeper moral foundations that emphasize accountability rather than victimhood.
The dialogue then shifts to a broader discussion about societal corruption and a cultural acceptance of grievance narratives, which perpetuate divisiveness rather than foster communal healing. Molyneux and Jordan express a mutual understanding of the significant impact personal choices have on broader social dynamics, illustrating their points with practical anecdotes from their experiences. They both advocate for a return to virtuous accountability that does not shy away from confronting the uncomfortable truths of individual and collective behavior.
In this insightful exchange, listeners are invited to consider the philosophical and ethical dilemmas surrounding forgiveness, justice, and societal responsibility. Stefan’s articulate reasoning combined with Jordan's lived experiences creates a rich tapestry of discussion that challenges listeners to rethink the nature of forgiveness beyond its conventional boundaries, touching upon how these principles play a crucial role in building resilient communities and promoting individual integrity.
0:03 - The Nature of Forgiveness
1:40 - Understanding Bitterness and Responsibility
6:20 - The Role of Justice in Forgiveness
10:11 - Differentiating Crimes Against Society
14:00 - The Complexity of Christian Forgiveness
18:40 - Accidents vs. Malicious Intent
27:03 - Accountability and Consequences
30:03 - The Ultimate Arbiter of Justice
34:34 - Navigating Personal Relationships
44:46 - Forgiveness: A Multifaceted Perspective
47:36 - Accidental Forgiveness
49:40 - Safety and Security
54:39 - Justice and Accountability
59:48 - Differentiating Forgiveness
1:05:49 - The Role of Community
1:19:11 - Cultural Accountability
1:28:29 - Personal Redemption
1:31:04 - Overcoming Adversity
[0:00] More than us, if you want to. We're talking about forgiveness, right?
[0:03] Yes, sir. And then I have another subject, if you don't mind, as well.
[0:08] Well, let's see how we do on the forgiveness one and what time we have left.
[0:11] No problem. The one about Christian forgiveness, and I've watched your video on that. By the way, my name is Jordan, first name. So it's a pleasure to meet you as well. I've seen some of your content. I've kept up with some of it. And I've been keeping abreast of, I guess, the whole new Christian movement that's been coming from, I guess, you know, the state of things in the U.S. And how the progressive left has kind of just taken over the culture. And so, being a Black American myself, I've kind of disparate over, I guess, well, in my community, that in particular. But as far as Christian forgiveness goes, when I saw how Charlie Kirk's wife responded and then how people kind of had a vitriolic response to that, I think they misunderstand Christian forgiveness because it's not an abdication of responsibility. Repentance is part of it, but it's also a dualist in terms of, well, you forgive the other person, give the opportunity for forgiveness because it's not just a one-way street, it's two-way. Yes, there's repentance. They have to say, you know what, I did wrong. I'm coming to you to make it right between us right but from from the christian perspective you're not going to hold on to that bitterness and you're handing that bitterness over to god in in a technical term then i'm coming from more of a reformed uh reformed baptist view.
[1:41] Sorry so the view you just described is that your view.
[1:45] It would be the view of Reformed theology.
[1:50] Is that your view?
[1:51] Yes, sir.
[1:52] Okay, yeah. I just don't mean to harangue you. I just want to know if you were describing somebody else's view.
[1:56] No, it's fine. It's me. It's most definitely me. I hold that position.
[1:59] Okay, got it. So tell me about the bitterness. So it seems to me that there's a certain amount of hedonism in this. Like you get this curse called bitterness, which you only release yourself from if you say that you forgive or if you forgive or something like that. So it's not a universal experience that failing or not forgiving someone who has not repented produces bitterness. I mean there are people in my life who have failed who've done me wrong who failed to repent and, I have not forgiven them because I reserve my forgiveness for those who earn it because I want to help them and I don't give forgiveness to people who haven't earned it because it doesn't help them it reduces an incentive to, to apologize and to try to make restitution right so if it's not a universal experience and I'm not bitter about those things. I have a pretty great life. I'm sort of very happy. I have lovely people in my life and all of that. So if it's not a universal experience to experience bitterness, if you don't forgive, then that's not really a solid argument because you're relying upon emotions that are not everyone's.
[3:17] I would say that's, I mean, that makes sense. But even in the New Testament, Paul mentions that amongst, well, there's two types of forgiveness that we have to work with. Because in the New Testament, you have Paul's teaching, which expounds on Jesus' teaching. It's not just forgiveness, right? So we have forgiveness amongst people that we are outside the faith. You know what I mean? So we have that kind of forgiveness where the person comes to you and says, or doesn't, but either way, it's not an abdication of responsibility or accountability, right? So there still would be consequences for that action, right? There still would be ramifications. There's not an abdication of that.
[4:03] Sorry, there still would be what?
[4:04] There still would be ramifications for… Ramifications.
[4:07] Okay. Right. So let's take a rapist.
[4:10] Right.
[4:11] The rapist goes to prison or is executed, if that's the punishment.
[4:15] Is that right? Right. If he was going to be executed, that would still be the law, right? Because Paul says in the test, and this is in Acts, he says, the government doesn't hold that position for nothing. It holds the position to execute judgment because God has placed it in that position to do so, right? So the justice system is supposed to hold that accountable. So that way we're not going around being vigilantes, right?
[4:45] Okay, so let me understand something with regards to the state, and I appreciate the conversation. So let's say that the legal system, you had to press charges.
[4:57] Right.
[4:58] Right, so that's true of some cases, but let's just say it was true of everything.
[5:02] Okay.
[5:02] So, in order for the rapist to get punished, his victim has to press charges. Now, if his victim forgives him, should she press charges?
[5:19] If the victim forgives the person, yes, she can still press charges. That would still be within my stance, yes.
[5:27] Okay, help me, because forgiveness, if I forgive a debt, right, somebody owes me $100, and I say, the debt is forgiven, then I don't get to take that person to court for failing to pay the debt, because the debt is forgiven. If I send them a formal letter, I forgive the debt, the debt is forgiven, the slate is clean, then they don't have to pay me back the money, right? I mean, they can, but they don't have to. There's no law enforcement. So if forgiving means that it is if the wrong never happened... Right? It's somebody's earned their forgiveness. Like if I borrow your car and I dent your car and then I pay to get it fixed and all of that, and then it's like your car was never dented, that's me making restitution. And I assume that we would be good enough friends that you would forgive me for accidentally denting your car or whatever it is, right?
[6:20] Right.
[6:21] But so help me understand that if the law requires that someone press charges, and let's say that the punishment in the law for rape is death, then are you saying that the woman who forgives the man would still have him killed by the state?
[6:39] Okay, that, I can see where you're going with that because I would have to differentiate, I guess, that with a, I would have to differentiate the crime, I guess, the crime against society versus the crime against an individual. So in this case, if she's forgiving the person, then from what you're arguing that would make sense is that she would not press charges.
[7:02] Sorry to interrupt. We're talking about a scenario where a man only gets punished if the woman presses charges. The rapist is only going to get punished if the woman presses charges. The government can't do it on her behalf.
[7:12] Okay. Alright. Then I would go with most likely she would forgive the person and not press charges.
[7:17] Okay. So then the rapist would go free.
[7:20] Then it in okay. Well that's Thanks. I don't believe I agree with that.
[7:34] Agree with what?
[7:35] I don't believe I agree with that being what I hold in terms of forgiveness.
[7:42] No, I mean, I think you and I would both agree that rapists should not be roaming society, right? So that's the challenge, right? So what's required for rapists to be punished in the Christian society, the one that you're talking about? It's not the one that I grew up in, but that's fine. We can obviously have different opinions about Christianity, but what is required is that the woman forgive the rapist, but the other Christians who run the government absolutely do not forgive him, arrest him, try him, and if found guilty, put him to death or throw him in jail for the rest of his life or whatever the punishment is for the rapist. So, the woman is only able to forgive the rapist if other Christians in her society absolutely refuse to forgive the rapist and punish him to the fullest extent of the law.
[8:29] Correct.
[8:30] So, that's a contradiction, right?
[8:32] It does sound like a contradiction, but I have an example. I guess that might bring up an interesting situation because we have in Deuteronomy, which is the Old Testament, where we have a murderer that's committed a murder against the family, right? Right. But God had designated them to be exiled to another city or they would be put to death. It would be one of two things.
[8:56] Sorry, the murderer is exiled to another city?
[8:59] Right. The murderer would be exiled to another city. I think this is in Leviticus. Okay. Or either they would be put to death, but if they were put to death, his blood is on his own head. You know, or either exiled to another city if he makes restitution or if and if not, and the family pursues charges, there's still damages that's pursued, but it's not death. So there's still punishment.
[9:22] Okay. So that means a failure to forgive or you do not forgive the person. You instead seek restitution.
[9:30] That would be a, well, it would be a crime against God in terms of, because a violation in the body in terms of like acts against the body, you talk about rape, you talk about murder, crimes against the body is a crime against God. Is that how that's considered? So it's not just against a person you're committing the crime against. So it's not just you that's being violated. You see what I'm saying? So it's not just, so it's not just me going after the person.
[9:56] Because God is like, I don't mean to diminish it, but God is like a third party in the moral claim. And it's like, if I rent a car and then I damage someone with the car, then the car rental company is like a third party.
[10:12] Or if I drive it to someone's car who's rented it, then it's a rental company. The rental car company is going to go after me as well, because it's their car. So God would be a sort of third party claimant in this transaction.
[10:22] Correct, because the moral law is the Ten Commandments, right? So under that, you have a subset of laws that follow that. But again, Leviticus and Deuteronomy kind of follow Israel's specific set of laws, but those principles still kind of make sense in terms of a judicial system that came out of Christianity into the West, sort of. But it's not as punitive, and it's definitely not as effective in my opinion, but it sort of works. But it hasn't worked as much recently due to a lot of bureaucracy that's kind of gotten in the way.
[11:01] Okay, so let's go. We've gone a bit of a walkabout, which is very interesting, but we haven't addressed the issue that I brought up. That if we have a legal system where the victim has to press charges... And the woman is raped, and she forgives the man, then she will not press charges, and therefore the rapist will walk free. And that, I think we both agree that that's not an ideal outcome. And of course, morality should not have a bad outcome. That's an old sort of Aristotelian idea, that if someone's moral arguments lead to an outcome that everybody recognizes is bad, then something has to be reformulated. And so, if we have a legal system, Let's say the punishment is life in prison for a rapist. Man rapes a woman. She forgives him. She refuses to press charges because she's forgiven him. Then he walks free. So that's not great, right?
[11:52] Right. And I would say, now in this particular case, because when you have, well, you have also the state involved, unfortunately, in cases when it comes to this. So the state's going to- No.
[12:05] No, sorry. Sorry. We're talking about a situation where the woman has to press charges. And there are some of those situations, right? I mean, there are domestic disputes. I don't know the law in this particular way, but from what I've heard, there are domestic disputes where they say to the woman, do you want to press charges? And if she says no, then no charges are pressed. So there are some circumstances in which charges are optional. Oh, you're lucky he doesn't want to press charges. Oh, he's decided not to press charges or she's decided not to press charges. So, in those situations, let's just say that that's the basis of the law, then he's not punished if she doesn't press charges. And if she forgives him, she's not going to press charges.
[12:49] Yes, I would say in that case, that could most likely be the outcome, but this would be an exception, right?
[13:00] Well, no, this would be if she has to forgive Thank you. Her rapist, then to forgive her rapist means she doesn't press charges. If she doesn't press charges, the rapist walks free, which I think you and I would both agree is a bad outcome.
[13:17] Okay.
[13:18] So, in order for the rapist to be punished, there have to be two groups of people. I guess there would be the woman who says she forgives him, and then there would be other Christians who have to pursue him, arrest him using force, incarcerate him, put him on trial, and either execute him or leave him in prison for the rest of his life or 10 years or 20 years or whatever it's going to be. So they have to not forgive him. So there's a contradiction. Some Christians forgive and other Christians must do the opposite of forgiving, and that's the intellectual side I have difficulty with.
[13:56] I understand. And so, okay, so I want to dive into that a little bit more.
[14:01] So let's say the woman does forgive him, right? But the community has to hold him to some standard, right? So, because even though the crime did happen— So they have to not forgive him. Well, okay, so, but then, but because it's not just, okay, according to the Christian's view, right? So our view would be, okay, it's not just a crime against the person, right? It's a crime also against not just the laws in place, but God over it. You see what I'm saying? So it's the character of God you violated. So that has to be held accountable versus it not being enforced, something not being enforced.
[14:36] Yes, but that's true for the woman as well as the society as a whole.
[14:40] Okay.
[14:41] The man who rapes a woman, and I'm sorry to use such an ugly example, it's just that it's one of the examples that there's no ambiguity. Like if you say thou shalt not steal, it's like, well, what if somebody stole it in the past and I'm stealing it back? But rape is just unambiguously evil. So the rapist who rapes the woman has also committed a crime against God by violating her body, which is from God. So saying well it's good god is involved as well doesn't change the equation between the woman and the society as a whole.
[15:11] No i i agree with you it doesn't change that dynamic i agree um that does that does create a uh an issue i suppose there i mean but in terms of i mean i still think there's still accountability that still comes from that because you're not it's like okay if if let's just For instance, say, if I was a bank robber, right, from the past or whatever it was, just because I claim I'm Christian or whatever it is, right, doesn't mean that that history won't be held against me.
[15:43] Sure.
[15:43] You know what I mean?
[15:44] Yeah, you rob a bank and you're going to go to prison because, as you know, the really expert bank robbers tend to own banks rather than rob them. But all right. So you're a standard bank robber and you go to prison because even if you fall to your knees and you apologize and so on, you have to be held accountable. In other words, you are not forgiven.
[16:08] Right. But, I mean, you're not forgiven in terms of the history of it, you know, in terms of against society in that context of this actual law. It's, you know, it's illegal. It's not accepted as societal norms, that kind of stuff. But even if I turned to a different faith and went into a church and they were like, yeah, you know, you're a part of the group or community, they're going to still, I mean, people wouldn't want me in charge of their finances, you know? So, and that's reasonable. You're not, it's not a, it's not, I don't believe it's a hypocritical term in terms of forgiveness. I think there's accountability that still follows your pattern of behavior, right? So there's a pattern, you know, if you have a pattern, so there will be some accountability of that. It's like, I mean, I just believe that's how it would go in terms of that. You know, I don't want to expect someone to give me, even if I stole a penny from someone, eventually they're going to think, okay, if you stole a penny, you'd probably have to steal a dollar from me later, right?
[17:21] And I'm 100% with you with regards to the accountability, but the accountability—, requires that the person not be forgiven. And I think one of the challenges is that the word is used in multiple ways in Christianity. So, of course, if I brood over the people who've done me wrong, then my life is pretty negative, right? I'm like, plotting vengeance and all kinds of nonsense that is going to not make me a very pleasant person to be around, least of all to myself. So I sort of get the, you know, if you decide to punish people who've done you wrong, then you should move towards that punishment. And again, I'm not talking about vigilantism, but you know, I've, I've taken legal action against people who've done me wrong and I feel perfectly justified in doing that. And so I will do that. And if I decide I'm not going to.
[18:22] Take any steps against someone who's done me wrong, then I have to find some way to be somewhat at peace with it, to move on and to not brood, right? I mean, I think that that's not. So that is a way of finding some peace and getting the person out of your mind and moving on to a better life and so on.
[18:41] And so that to me is not forgiveness. There may be another word for that, but it's not the same as forgiveness. I reserve forgiveness. So there's people who do you wrong accidentally, right? There's an old line from Hamlet where he apologizes to Laird. He's saying, oh, I'm so sorry. I shot an arrow over a house and hit my brother. Like it was a pure accident. And we've all had that. You know, you play sports. I used to play a lot of soccer and, you know, you, you, you kick the ball and it goes into someone's face, you know, they go down like a bowling pin, right? Now I'm so sorry. And that's because I didn't, i didn't mean to kick the ball into your face and so you say sorry sorry sorry now of course, You don't want in the game of soccer for that man to be like, I'm going to find a way to kick the ball in Stef's face, too. You know, because that, so you apologize, it's an accident. And hopefully the person forgives you and recognizes that that's sort of a natural hazard of playing a ball game. You know, it's the same thing with baseball. You know, you're at bat and somebody throws the ball, it hits you in the leg. It hurts. And, you know, hopefully they're not trying to hit you in the leg. It's just an accident.
[19:51] Yeah, that sucks.
[19:52] So, you know, forgiveness is like, but the person has to recognize that it was wrong and they have to be sorry about it so that they can tell you it was an accident. Right. Sorry, go ahead.
[20:06] Yeah, I'll just add to it. They have to have, because it's almost like how people have discussions with you, right? Like, you know, if someone is playing the game of they're not having a discussion with you, rather, they're there to make their point at whatever cost that is versus we're having a discussion, right? So there's malice, and then there's someone that's actually coming from a place of, hey, I want to have a discussion with you. And we can tangle with the ideas versus someone that's coming from a place of malice. So, and I'll even add another caveat that also brings in, this is my more advanced thought is, so where do, even in Christianity, this kind of issue, I guess, is the benefit of the doubt thing, which I don't really agree with, you know, I don't agree with benefit of the doubt necessarily, because, I believe as adults, we make conscious decisions, you know, each and every day to do something. And I think as far as mistakes go, a mistake, I would say, okay, this is something that I had the knowledge at the time that I thought was the best decision, but later found out in hindsight, it was bad, right? Versus I made a conscious decision that was obviously wrong. And then to call that a mistake, I think is disingenuous, you know?
[21:20] So those are complicated things and to unravel. So just to return to my soccer example. So if I kick the ball into your face and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Right. That's my way of saying it was an accident. Right. However, if I kick the ball in your face and I say, yes, you're right. You were looking at my sister's butt, you know, something like that. Then clearly that's not an accident. Right. And that's a different kind of situation. Like if, again, if I borrow your car and somebody runs a red and hits the car, I'm not at fault, right? Because that person obviously disobeyed the law and did something highly dangerous. And the other thing is that if I am just a little careless or something happens where I scratch the car or there's a dent in the car, but it wasn't caused by someone else, but it also wasn't directly willed by me, that's a different matter. But then, you know, if I borrow your car and then key it because I'm mad at you about something and I scratch the heck up and consciously, that's a whole different matter. Right. And so… It's out of maliciousness.
[22:20] Yeah.
[22:21] Yeah. So where there's malicious willed intent…, So unraveling an accident. Oh, I'm so sorry. I hit you in the face with the ball. I didn't mean to. I'm really sorry. Uh, that's, that's usually fair because it is a genuine accident. And so I think forgiveness when the person has said, Oh, it was a total accident. I'm really sorry. Now, if of course someone like if, if over the course of a soccer game, I, I kicked the ball into your face eight times in a row, that might be a little bit less of an accident. And then my claims of, Oh, I'm sorry for the eighth time. Oh, total accident, bro. I'm sorry, right? You sort of not believe me. So for the accidents of life, apologies and forgiveness, are natural if you have kids like you you wrestle with your kids and every now and then someone gets an elbow to the nose and oh sorry you know didn't mean to uh do that and and you go back to your wrestling with more caution or whatever it is right so i think forgiveness for accidents is very important you can't have a relationship with people that last at all if you can't forgive each other for the minor missteps or slights or accidents of uh just life's friction and then there are yeah i'm married too.
[23:31] So i understand that.
[23:32] Good so and and then there's the the so that that's uh that's accidents which aren't even really sins right that's just right your life is gonna like life is gonna just throw stuff at you it's gonna hit you in the leg from time to time and you just have to kind of forgive it and move on and then there's carelessness right now carelessness, is this is the difference between uh you know you can cause someone's death that's a complete accident, right? Where you won't get charged. And then there's negligent homicide or whatever it is, right? Where you cause someone's death through your carelessness, right? Like you lend someone a bike and you haven't had the brakes checked ever. And then the brakes don't work and they plow into the traffic or something. And then it's like, you will be held liable, not because you caused the death directly or you wanted the death, but it was through your negligence that the death came to pass. And again, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm just pulling stuff out of my armpit here.
[24:23] Because that makes perfect sense because, I mean, I mean, I... Prior military so i know exactly what you're talking about yeah you know check vehicles check equipment stuff like that if you're in charge of things if you're not if you don't check that stuff and then something happens under your under your charge uh you're going to be the one responsible stuffless right.
[24:45] Right right yeah so if uh if there's a jeep and and somebody they checks off that they check the brakes but they didn't check the brakes because the brakes are bald then it's the only time the ball can never be used in a negative context ever.
[24:57] But uh but then yeah.
[24:58] That person would be responsible. And then that's a much more serious thing than the sort of natural accidents and frictions of life as a whole. And for that to happen, you can't just forgive the person who is negligent in a very dangerous manner in the same way that you forgive someone who accidentally kicks the ball and it goes into your face. Because that's not an accident, but neither is it willed malice. It's just maybe laziness, or I guess there would be, thou shalt not bear false witness if they say they check the brakes but they didn't then there would be some some deeper issue is it at risk and you wouldn't just forgive that person like you know i kicked the ball into your face i'm so sorry are you okay right let me go on with the game maybe i'm a little bit more careful but whatever right so uh that that you get up you dust yourself off and you continue but as you say in the army if you say you've checked something you.
[25:52] And you didn't like you, you know, you, you've got a box of ammo to send the front to the front lines and you say, oh no, I checked the ammo was in there. And then they deliver the box and it's full of, I don't know, buckets or, or, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, something that's not going to do a huge amount of harm, but it's pretty. So, so that's a more serious matter because, because you've lied because you said you did something that you didn't do. And, you know, there could have been multiple deaths or injuries that are the result. So that's, and you can't just forgive that because if you forgive that in the way that you forgive me kicking the ball in your face, you can't just go on because that's not an accident. That is, that is a sin. And the sin is lying. Because if you'd said, no, I haven't checked whether they're bullets or tracers, then they would go and check. Right. But if you say, no, no, no, I've checked. They're totally bullets. And they weren't. Then that's, that's a lie. And that's a different matter. Sorry, go ahead.
[26:45] Yeah. And then sorry to interrupt. And then you end up incentivizing bad behavior through that way because, you know, humans are driven by incentives, you know? So that's the fallout, ultimate fallout, is that you'll have an increased likelihood of bad behavior because there's no ramifications, right?
[27:03] Right. Well, and then the last example is when somebody, let's go back to the army example, right? A box of ammo is supposed to be sent to the front, and someone opens it up, takes out the bullets, and replaces them. With saucepans or something equally heavy so that it appears right so that's that's that's not an accident that's not laziness that's not like that's willed uh sabotage and that would be i mean i can't imagine anything more serious in wartime than actively sabotaging uh frontline war fighters so oh yeah so so that would so you would forgive the ball to the face in soccer you would have consequences for the person who was lazy and then you might get the death penalty for actively sabotaging the frontline fighters in a time of war. And so all of these things are different, but we use the word forgiveness in many ways, right? Of course, if we look at Erica Kirk, right, the fact that this fellow seems to have shot her husband through the neck for his lawful and peaceful exercise of free speech, that is not, like, we can't use the same word, for all three situations. That's like saying, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
[28:18] Yeah, that makes sense. I actually agree with you on that because maybe we could, because maybe it might be a technicality and differentiations of what type of forgiveness we're talking about here, right? So maybe we might need something else that might cover what she's doing, right? So that it's not misconstrued as, oh, well, it's a freebie, right?
[28:40] Well, but what she's doing, and I don't mean to pick on Erica because, of course, the woman has suffered immeasurably, but unfortunately, she's just the most recent example. So, what Erica is doing, her, I forgive you to the murderer, that is only possible because other Christians are not going to forgive him. Right? So, that's the contradiction. So, if the law was such that if Erica says she forgives the shooter, the shooter is not charged and gets to walk free. Then we don't have a legal system and evil people run society and we're all hiding in basements starving to death. So that's the contradiction, is that I think that Erica's kind of belief is a luxury belief that she can claim only because she knows for sure that other Christians, largely men, are going to go arrest this son of a gun, throw his butt in jail, and prosecute him the fullest extent of the law up to and including the death penalty if he's found guilty and it's appropriate to the to the situation so i'm concerned that it's a kind of a hypocritical luxury belief i forgive it's like but that's only because she knows that other people aren't going to forgive him and are going to punish him to the extent of the law all.
[29:58] Right i'll i i could possibly give you that position but let me present another position to you.
[30:04] Yeah so um So.
[30:07] It comes—and this is—I'm about 70% sure of this one. It's more so the teaching where—it's both from Paul and Jesus, where we're taught to forgive, but it has to do with the Lord's Prayer, you know? So, you have the Lord's Prayer where it says, you know, our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name, you know, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, you know, and then— On earth as it is in heaven.
[30:31] Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Yeah, yeah, I was raised with the same thing. Yeah, yeah.
[30:36] Yeah, so it's a teaching of that, and then you have Paul's teaching amongst people that are outside the church when it comes to violations amongst Christians, right? Yeah. It's not that, see, because, okay, just to debate slightly, it's like when Paul got stoned, it's not like the whole church got together and tried to, you know, gather the stones together and put them in jail because, you know, they weren't in power by any means, right? So, because the Sanhedrin was the majority religious group in power, right? So, they put, were trying to basically kill and arrest Paul. So, you know, they couldn't have done it. Other Christians couldn't have done that, right? So, they didn't go around trying to make justice by means of force. They could have if they wanted to, but they didn't go do that, you know? Because the belief is more that God is the ultimate arbiter of justice, right? Now, I understand that this may kind of suck in the physicality of things, but it comes from God is the ultimate arbiter of justice. And from even, I guess, our system here in the West, it's more that an innocent man be put in jail and a criminal be let go due to it would be a greater injustice that the innocent man is put in jail. Does that make sense?
[32:04] Mm-hmm.
[32:05] Okay.
[32:05] Right.
[32:05] So it comes from where, okay, see, because, and I'm pretty sure I think, I've watched, well, I've watched a good amount of your videos, and I agree that a lot of the issues now is that people are thinking the government is the solution. It's not, right? Because there's nothing to govern the government over itself other than it has to be an overarching standard over it that can govern it. And if there's nothing governing it, you end up using the government as an arms of religion, you know, as an arms of belief, an ultimate mechanism that solves all problems, and it doesn't, right?
[32:44] So, Erica Kirk's belief is more so that God is the ultimate arbiter and will bring justice eventually because we have, and I'm pretty sure you're familiar with that, that there is a judgment day, there is a day where God will account for all of it, right? It's not that he's gotten away, it's just that it may look like he's gotten away now, right? And so now that we, and I'm pretty sure you may agree, you can tell me if you disagree or not, but it's that now that we have now removed religion from society and now people think that the government is the end-all be-all solution. So she's just spouting that, okay, God is the ultimate arbiter. I don't think necessarily that other Christians will hold her accountable. Maybe that could be part of it, right? 25, 30% maybe. But the other side of it would be that from a Christian belief that where you believe that God is the ultimate arbiter of justice, that God is going to come and do justice either through the system because the government is part of that or either after the slide. You know what I mean?
[33:51] Right.
[33:51] If that makes sense.
[33:52] Right. So, forgive us our trespasses, I find fascinating. And I pondered this a lot as a kid because I had to recite the prayer every morning in school. And I think forgive us our trespasses is really fascinating because it's mutual. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Now, the word trespass, I mean, you could say it means debt or whatever it is, but let's just take sort of the modern parliance. So, trespass is when you go on somebody else's property, Right. And we've all done this, you know, heaven forbid, there's somebody with a corner lot, the kids are going to cut across the lawn. Like, sorry, but it just happens.
[34:28] We've all done that. Right.
[34:30] Now, you don't get to shoot the kids who are crossing across the lawn.
[34:34] Maybe you build a fence or whatever it is, but you don't get to like tackle them and beat them up because they set foot on your property. So there is, again, this sort of this inevitable chafing of life. I mean, even in this conversation, which is great, I really enjoy it, but, you know, we're a little bit treading on each other's toes when it comes to words, and we're both trying to get our points in, we don't have sort of a formal thing, and that's natural. There will be times where I'll overtalk you, times where you'll overtalk me, that's totally fine, that's natural, because the only other alternative is to have some other third party, but a stopwatch or some nonsense like that. So in life there's there's just chafing right i have i won't even get into the details because they're too horrific but i have forgotten a loved one's birthday completely and maybe i'm just a dude or something like that i tried.
[35:23] To get away with that once with my wife it didn't work.
[35:25] Well i'm sure you didn't try to get away with it you just forgot right and and so now, Now, does that person who shall remain nameless, but does that person forgive me? I mean, they could hold it over me for the rest of the time, but do they forgive me? Well, sure, because it was simply an oversight. And to be fair, I don't really care that much about my birthday because I'm not 12, right? So in the natural shaping of life, we are thoughtless, we are careless. You know, my wife likes it when I take my toothbrushes and toothpaste and put them and stack them. She's even given me a little nice cut for that, right? And so she prefers it when I do that. And it's.
[36:11] A way of caring.
[36:12] Yeah i but and i don't always do that right and and but but that's not so so again we could sort of as husbands we we know all of this kind of stuff that there and there are things that my wife does um she uh she always keeps her car key like the car that we share she puts the keys in her purse now a purse to a man it might as well be a black hole like i don't know what goes on in there there's mysteries there's things that will eat my hand i don't like going into a woman's purse it's gonna it's gonna take the hair off my arm or something's gonna happen estrogen based so when i say you know when you come in can you hang up the keys right she's like yeah yeah right now at this point in her marriage she's like look i'm so sorry for whatever reason it's not gonna happen doesn't mean i don't care just it's not gonna happen because she doesn't right she keeps him in her purse she comes home and to be fair she usually comes home because i need something so she's trying to address that so so she so then i need to go and heaven forbid if I'm late somewhere, which is my fault, of course. But, you know, if I say, where are the keys? And she says, in my purse, you know, there's usually at least three purses in the downstairs area, and they have approximately 4,000 compartments each. There's like little folds and other dimensional stuff in there. There's stars. I literally see constellations in there when I open them up. So I don't know where the keys are. I mean, I might as well just try and hotwire the dang thing and drive off that way.
[37:31] Sometimes there are lock boxes.
[37:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she, you know, heaven forbid I put something down and it gets tidied. And tidied means it simply disappears from this dimension. It's put into some proper place that is hidden from my consciousness as a husband. So these are just a little chafey stuff that, you know, who cares, right? Yeah. The prayer does not say, forgive us our murders as we forgive those who murder us, right? It's saying trespasses, which means you're setting foot on someone else's property. No particular damage is done, but you don't want to get hung up on all the petty little rules and you don't want to get paranoid and say, well, because my wife doesn't hang up the car keys, she doesn't love me. You know, you don't want to. So I think the trespasser stuff is just the natural stepping over on other people's in the same way that you and I aren't screaming because, you know, I interrupt you or you interrupt me or whatever, right? We're just like having, it's not even anything to forgive. Like we sort of rise above that kind of stuff. So I think the trespasser stuff, it's a word that's not in. The Ten Commandments, right? It's not about theft or murder or false idols or anything like that. And so, the trespassers word, I think, means, listen, don't let stupid little wrongs or slights accumulate to the point because you won't be able to have any relationships at all.
[38:50] Right, and I'll agree with you in the answer that. Even Paul says that later on in the New Testament. So, he says, you know, don't argue about, you know, what is it? Can't remember the word said don't argue about uh small things you know don't.
[39:04] Copy small.
[39:04] Arguments you know uh even amongst the churches because he knew eventually then it would just be tied up in them arguing about you know who wore this at what day right so.
[39:12] Right right or exactly you know down to the last decimal point what particular what means what's good charity and stuff like that now as far as forgive them like this is the challenge with jesus and paul as you know is that they were very early on in the church and it wasn't founded and it certainly wasn't known right so if yeah so So, ignorance of the law is an excuse, which is why the argument is that Socrates doesn't go to hell, even though he didn't accept Jesus because he was born 500 years before Jesus. So, ignorance of the law is an excuse until the law is generally known, right? So, if you're— Sorry, go ahead.
[39:48] Okay, well, I agree that—well, for me, I kind of go with, it's like, okay, I will start with, like, I realize that we have to be taught right. Because even as a child, even when you're younger, you know how to lie even before anyone tells you anything, you know, because you naturally feel shame.
[40:07] Oh, it's the default position, yeah.
[40:09] Right. So your default configuration kind of, you want to avoid feeling bad and shame and doing wrong and make others disappointed in you as a child, right? So that follows you as a child, but you have to be taught right. It's, you know, even... And so, from my perspective, at least from a Christian perspective, I argue that, and my position is that I think people kind of know what is wrong. It's written on their hearts by God. That's my position, because now we can say, okay, Socrates didn't go to hell before Christ. Well, again, it says, well, Paul kind of influences that by saying, well, it's written on everyone's heart, and God deals with each individual person in terms of their own personal experience with God, right?
[40:52] So that's kind of like covered to some degree because they say well the argument is well what if the guy that's out on the island somewhere doesn't know anything you know so but we had that covered later on by paul and in isaiah to some degree so i would say we kind of know we know what's wrong even when we're young it's just that knowing what's right because if you're incentivized to do wrong it becomes habit right so it's like if you're you know if you come from a chaotic environment you already know this if you come from a chaotic environment it's more familiar to stay in the chaos than it is go to an environment that's safe why would i go to something i don't know right and then to or just stay where i'm already at i know that this is chaos this is this is this is at least what i know you know so i would argue that point but uh overall i i somewhat agree with your position there but only to agree i guess like you know people i think they know what's wrong it's just that maybe you might agree you may not but i i think that people have a natural instinct to justify bad behavior, and try to make an excuse for it well you know i used to always do it this way or this is my experience or something like that.
[42:07] Or this is how i was raised and this is what my parents showed.
[42:11] Yeah my family has always done it this way this is tradition or whatever kind of excuse to try to wrap it around right so i think accountability is something that as humans we try to run away from, because you know we don't want to feel like we're doing something wrong because of what we want to.
[42:26] Do right and if if you're a parent uh your kids at some point when they're very little they will walk out of a store with a candy bar in their hand yeah now they're not stealing because at home if there's a candy bar uh they can just grab it i mean it depends on how your sort of pantry is configured but they can grab food at home so there's a candy bar i'll take it and they're not like stealing because they're like hey i got a candy and then you have to go back and explain it to them now of course if you're you know three or four years old and you take a candy bar out of the store that's not a crime because you don't know the law you don't know the store you don't know property rights in the abstract and so you know you take you you take the candy bar back you explain to the kid but not out of anger but just out of instruction right if that's but if you're 20 and you walk out of a store with a candy bar uh you know yeah you have accountability so i think I think that Paul and Jesus and the early church fathers were dealing with a situation where people hadn't witnessed the miracles, Christianity had not spread, they had not accepted Jesus, and so they were dealing with, in a sense, a three-year-old with a candy bar rather than a twenty-year-old with a candy bar, which is, I think, where that forgiveness comes in. So, sorry, if there's more you want to add, I wanted to see if I could find a way to resolve these different positions.
[43:44] No i think i i think we've we've come a way on it it's just i think we may need to call it something a little different possibly but um you know i i i i just i don't agree that erica was probably coming from that position though because you know if if you're an avid christian someone who's going to church or practice christianity your first thought is not necessarily well that your your first thought is really one you don't want to hold on to bitterness that way you know for your own sake because you end up rolling around being an angry person and the second one is you're giving the chance that possibly that you're hoping the other person could sometime the road come to christ if not they'll be hold they'll be held to that standard after this like uh after they check out of this life or they'll be held to the uh the law right so um i think that's probably more so the her thought process and this is just a guess right um i would say um what do you call it a, a good approximation of what i'm right so.
[44:46] Yeah if we look at these three situations accident with apology which is how you know it's an accident oh i'm so sorry i kicked the ball in your face so that we forgive then there is negligence with apology and hand wringing and i you know guilt oh my gosh i i didn't check the brakes and somebody got into a car crash i feel absolutely wretched. And, you know, that may be actionable criminally or civilly, but there is, at least the person feels bad and they're, you know, crying and wretched and so on, right? And so that is something which could be forgiven if the person reforms. And then there is actual malice. You know, forethought, you know, first degree murder, whatever it is, the guy who stalks some woman and, and well, anybody who rapes it's, it's actual malice. So, so, and once somebody has say murdered that first degree murder, they planned it, they did it for insurance money and so on. Then I would assume that all tears that they have after that are just crocodile tears. It's just, oh, I'm not sorry. They did it. They're just sorry. They got caught, especially if they only get sad after they're caught. So.
[45:51] And I would think, well, I would say most cases are like that, though, where they're just sad they get caught, mostly, because we have actual data on that. So, you know, for the most part, the law has to be, you know, we have to have some ramifications for that.
[46:06] Right. And so, to use the same word... For a soccer ball to the face by accident as first degree murder is like forgiveness. That to me, because in the first instance, you should forgive because it's an accident and it's just part of playing soccer. So you got to forgive it, right? I mean, otherwise you can't play soccer and all of that, right? And you hold grudges and, you know, 20 years later, you're like, ah, that Stef guy hit me in the face with a ball. You know, like that's kind of crazy, right? So the natural chafings and trespassing and stepping over each other's toes in life must be forgiven. If you are a purist, then you, you know, nobody can ever do anything negative towards me. Then you can't get married. You can't have friends. You can't have a job. Like, you basically can't participate in society because there's overlaps and chafings that go on in all relationships. They're just, they're like sunspots at the sun, right? If you say, well, I can't stand the sunspots. It's like, well, you know, there is, in fact, a sun around it that's quite bright that may be more important.
[47:03] Right. You figure out, yeah, something is burning me. Right.
[47:06] So I appreciate you throwing in the white boy summer reference to burnt skin. I am Irish and German, so I go full tomato. So I appreciate that.
[47:19] Hey, I'm a little darker. I can avoid the sun, but I'm not trying to get too dark. Okay.
[47:23] Right, right. So taking non-willed accidental annoyances or discomforts and saying, I'm going to use that word forgiveness, which is something you should do.
[47:37] And, you know, I don't, I'm not, it's become a joke in my household that, you know, that the various things that my wife and I do that, you know, may not be ideal for the other person, but it's just become kind of funny, right? So that you should forgive, and it would be petty not to. But saying then saying that, word covers somebody who shoots your husband through the neck and murders him in cold blood, that is, to me, stretching the word way too far. And I just need a different word. Now, let me make the final case here. You can sort of let me know what you think. And again, appreciate the convo. So what I would say is that you can let go of the negative feelings right the hurt the anger the rage i imagine it would be for someone like erica kirk you can let go of the negative feelings when society is safe again so an example would be uh most people have had this if you live in a house or it's not so common in an apartment to see if in a house right.
[48:47] And you wake up at two o'clock in the morning because you you hear the sound of broken glass downstairs right right so you feel this uneasiness right your heart pounds you you get your full fight or flight right now can you go back to sleep without checking downstairs i mean no no that's right so if you go downstairs and you find that a tree branch or you know some something broke your window or you know maybe the house was settling in some basement window broke just because the pressure or whatever and there's nobody and you check everywhere there's nobody in the house, the window is broken, and it's not because of an intruder, then you can go back to sleep and you deal with it the next day, right?
[49:32] Right.
[49:33] So that uneasy feeling, that negative feeling you have will stay with you until...
[49:40] You know that you're safe and your family is safe. Is that a fair way to put it?
[49:44] Most definitely. I think, yeah, I agree with that.
[49:46] Okay. So the anger that we would feel against someone who is a rapist or a murderer is a negative and uneasy feeling that you could say God or nature or whatever has put within us to have us act, so that we know that we're safe. And so if you go downstairs and there's an intruder and, you know, you use a weapon, you hold him at bay, you call the police, the police take him away. I mean, obviously you're going to be kind of wired, right? But you're now in a situation of safety because the police are now dealing with his home invader, he's going to go to prison and so on. And so I think that the uneasy feeling, the negative feelings, the, you know, anger, bitterness, shame rage all of those are feelings that are put in us to have us act to ensure our safety and the safety of others because it's not just about us you've got kids upstairs you hear the breaking glass you go down check the breaking glass because somebody could be in who could hurt your kids.
[50:52] So the uneasy feeling the negative feelings and of course with erica kirk we can't even comprehend the negativity of those feelings, but they're there to compel us to act to best ensure the future safety of society. So if somebody is a rapist, then we hate that person, and then we lock him away. And then the feelings of hatred are supposed to diminish, as I'm sure they do, because he can't do any harm to society as a whole. He's locked up, let's say, for the rest of his life or whatever it is, or if it's a murderer and he's executed, well, he's not going to murder again, right? So there is that feeling that there's this negativity, this unease when there's an evil in society, which is compelling us to act to ensure the future safety of society. And when we have acted to ensure the future safety of society, those feelings will diminish of their own accord in the same way that your fear and anger or upset on hearing the breaking glass downstairs is alleviated.
[51:58] If you go down, you find there's nothing, or heaven forbid, there's an intruder, you get him arrested and taken away. And let's say that you have a just police force and court system, and he goes away for five or ten years for invading a home or something like that, right? So you have now reestablished safety and security, and then your feelings of bitterness and anger diminish. And so the feelings of bitterness and anger are there to compel you to work to make society safe. And then the feelings are alleviated, not because they're willed, like you can't will yourself to not worry about the sound of breaking glass. It's an automatic nervous system response. I mean, I'm sure you've been in situations of danger and it's like genuine danger, not something sort of made up. You know, situations of genuine danger, you can't just say, hey, relax, because your body is like, no, no. I mean, I think someone's following us in the woods and they're hiding behind trees or whatever, you know, like you can't just say, oh, relax. Because you know or or to put it another way uh everybody who was out in the woods and told themselves to relax uh i'm sure we're not being followed by a bear well occasionally they were and they die from the bear so you know that kind of got selected out of the population so right you're definitely.
[53:08] Not you're definitely not arguing that well you know our feelings are uh all our feelings are necessarily valid so you're just arguing the ones that are valid based on actual situational well awareness from the five senses that we can.
[53:20] Right assess so so the negative of feelings are there to compel you to act in a manner concordant with justice to make society safe. So if somebody breaks into your house, you hold them where they are, the police come and take them away, they get arrested because you've got video, camera, whatever, right? This is open and shut case. And they go to jail and then, okay, well, so, because it's not just about me, Right.
[53:46] So it's about society.
[53:48] Like you got your neighbors, you got your community, right? So if you let that guy go, the odds of him coming back to your house are virtually zero, but the odds of him going to somebody else's house are very high. So if a woman gets raped and she quote forgives, doesn't press charges or whatever, then the odds of her getting raped by that guy again, a very low, but the odds of someone else getting raped by that guy are very high. So it is an uneasy feeling that society, there's a predator in society and we need to work to make society safe. And once we work to make society safe justice has been done that person has been removed from society right then i can relax right so uh so so yeah so so that's my sort of feeling but if you just will the forgiveness then uh it's like saying to yourself um i i'm not going to go check downstairs i'm not gonna you know so i heard the sound of breaking glass i'm sure it's nothing That's not positive. Sorry, go ahead.
[54:40] Got it. So maybe we have a problem in the justice system where it's, okay, because we just have one crime against a person, and the charges are not going to count against the person unless they press charges, right? But there's a crime against the community there. So, that's another type of crime, right? So, wouldn't it have to be addressed in that manner?
[55:05] Well, and there certainly are crimes that you don't have to press charges. You know, the state will press charges on your behalf, whether you will it or not. For sure. But that still requires that the victim, because Erica Kirk was praised for this approach, and unfortunately, I think it took a lot of the necessary righteous moral energy out of the cause, that, you know, because it deflates the tension in society, which sometimes is necessary for progress. It's like the energy that was generated by the horrible murder of Charlie Kirk got kind of dissipated by this. But that's more of a sort of psychological interpretation. But I certainly have noticed that the energy's gone out. People aren't really posting about it anymore. Whereas if you look at, you know, other crimes throughout history, and so on, they still have a lot of energy because there's not a blanket forgiveness. And so, um, something that happened six weeks ago is gone. Stuff that happened hundreds of years ago or 70 years ago is still cooking along.
[56:05] Yeah. You mentioned MLK or, um, you know, JFK people know exactly about that. They're still passionate about that.
[56:13] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, There's still a logical contradiction to say that it is good for the victim to forgive. And of course, I mean, Charlie Kirk is beyond the capacity to forgive, at least in the mortal plane. But his wife would be the primary victim of the murderer at this point. So it's good for her to forgive, but it's absolutely bad and wrong for other people to forgive. Because if everyone forgave the rapist or the murderer, they're just going to go raping and murdering. And we have the exact example of El Salvador, right? Where some fellow got into power, Bukele or something like that, and he arrested and kept in prison the cartel members and the murderers and the rapists and the thieves. And the murder rate dropped massively. People are actually able to walk in streets at night. The society is way better. So the fact that he did not forgive anybody... But rather acted on the negative feelings to ensure the safety and security of society as a whole is good. And, of course, you can see this. We're currently going to go back into that slide into hellscape in New York, right? Because the new mayor is like, oh, there's no such thing as crime. Although I bet you still have to pay your property taxes, right? Apparently, he certainly arrests people for that.
[57:33] Yeah, hold on. I don't want to interrupt you. Sorry. sorry but yeah he said something really stupid just just like not too long ago about you know increasing taxes but he only increased taxes but like 0.6 no by six cents.
[57:49] Right oh and then right after he promises everything uh everything for free to everyone he asks for donations but that's kind of inevitable so everybody's.
[57:58] Running away now.
[57:59] So yeah the negative feelings and the uneasiness listen of course i mean we should we should work to have fewer negative feelings over the course of her life, but we should earn it, right? So, if you feel bad about being fat, you should lose weight, right? But you can't just sort of will yourself into being fine, or even if you will yourself psychologically, your arteries remain clogged with fat, and you still need knee pain and back pain. You can't just will all of that away. So, my argument would be that if you say, I no longer experience negative feelings because I have taken the danger out of society, then that is healthy. But if you say, I'm going to will away my negative feelings, without making society safer, without pressing charges, without getting a lawful conviction, if that turns out to be the case, or a confession or whatever it is, putting that person away, then that is not healthy and that is not good. And I don't like luxury beliefs. It's just my, whether it's a personal prejudice or not.
[59:06] No, I understand what you're saying. I understand that. I agree with you. Okay. I fully agree with you, even as a Christian, that I don't believe in, you know, just handing out our use to people just because, you know, They missed something, you know, I don't believe that I believe accountability is the best, repellent to foolishness, you know, so um, I agree with you. Maybe this might be the terminology, or maybe it might be just something that needs to be expounded upon a little bit more. Maybe I'll have...
[59:36] I don't want the same word to be used for something that's good and something that's bad. You know, that to me is really... It's worse than muddying. And I'm not saying anyone's doing this consciously, at least of all you, of course.
[59:48] But I don't like forgiveness to be, oh yeah, you know there's minor missteps and overlaps in life and you know your wife will not hang the car keys up and and and you've and of course you forgive that it's like i mean of course right in the same way that if i don't pull my toothbrushes back at the toothpaste uh in the little cup uh my wife forgets that and all that right so so that that's a good thing that's a mature thing that's a that's a healthy thing right i got deplatformed and i really don't hold any malice sorry about.
[1:00:16] That i i saw that i was i'm sorry i'm sorry Stefan you should not ever had gone through that because when i heard that you were going i i followed you over to rumble and i was just like like there's there was i was just like this is crazy it is it is insane that you have the government the government actually going after people just for saying things and then now you see it over in the uk is they're actually getting prosecuted put in jail for that.
[1:00:43] Well that is that is true and i you know i wouldn't necessarily i mean maybe the government had something to do with it or not, but let's just say it was sort of private organizations and so on.
[1:00:52] Yeah, but I'm sorry about that. I really am.
[1:00:54] Well, I appreciate that, but I don't wake up every morning, and I certainly, I mean, obviously, there was a bit of a shock, and I had to sort of scramble to change things and so on, but I don't sort of wake up, oh, these, right, and it's because... Well, first of all, they don't have philosophy. It's not taught. And so, I obviously do not want to put myself in highly illustrious, if not semi-divine or divine company, but it is a little bit of forgive them for they know not what they do, right? They are simply following their hedonistic path that is natural and inevitable when universal moral values collapse because of the fall of Christianity or the lack of the rise of philosophy or whatever it is, right?
[1:01:35] So, they don't know really.
[1:01:36] What they're doing they're just acting on uh impulses and uh and so it's like to me it's almost like getting mad at um somebody who doesn't know any better like getting mad at the kid who takes the candy out of the store.
[1:01:49] Without really knowing any better i understand forget i understand um forgiveness of that in particular but i'm not even i don't even know if we can say necessarily it's by just following their impulses because the amount of information we have access to is astronomical and that at the rate that we can look up information get access to and the fact that i mean i work in technology i actually work with ai so um i i know all the back end stuff so it's you know the amount of stuff that people have access to is insane versus you know and i even i had a conversation with my mom i said mom i said did you imagine, the technology and we had a conversation about two hours i couldn't believe you know, just listening to her story of the transition from the 70s up to the A's, and then, you know, that stuff. So it's, I wouldn't even say, well, give people that excuse because we have way more way less of an excuse now with all the information we have.
[1:02:43] I agree with that for sure for sure and i also wanted to say how funny it is for me when you talk about like the 1970s as if it's like the most ancient time known to man, wow the 1970s i was there 3 000 years ago when the ring was forged anyway it's just kind of funny to me i'm called.
[1:03:03] An old soul so i actually go in and listen to old people and talk i'll just sit down with older veterans say hey you know what you know have a conversation with them because i'm like you know you're older than me you know you know more than me so i want to know what you experienced you know so it's it's for me it's a learning experience you know.
[1:03:20] Right i'm.
[1:03:21] 30 i'm 38 so.
[1:03:23] Okay so that's not such a difference okay so with with regards to the word forgiveness i am a big fan of forgiveness for minor slights especially accidental ones of course we we step over it and you know uh when when you have kids every now and then they'll say something like uh uh oh yeah i was talking to this like really old guy he was like 50 like i'm 59 right so so but they're not meaning to be rude they're just you know telling their story so that there's not you don't get upset about about that kind of stuff right and so so so forgiveness is really good and and and right and mature and and.
[1:04:01] Necessary to have relationships so that's that's a net positive and all of that and for negligence it's more complicated for malevolence oof you know and yeah like whoever shot charlie curse this was not i shot an arrow out of the house this was like i targeted you with my scope right so so you can't i i rail against the same word for things that are morally good and things that are morally bad. In other words, to forgive minor slights, trespasses is a good thing, but you cannot go around forgiving murderers because then murderers run society and gun everyone down that they feel like it and it's the rule of the most evil over the good. And so I cannot, and also with regards to Erica Kirk again, not to pick on her personally, but just as a sort of figure for this kind of stuff, I personally don't think she has the right to forgive him. That right is reserved to God, right? Because even Jesus said, forgive them, Father. He didn't say, I forgive you. So you can call upon God to forgive people. And what you mean by that, I think, not to speak obviously for all Christians, but what I think Christians mean by that is to say... I pray that this murderer will find his conscience and truly repent and earn his forgiveness from God.
[1:05:24] That would be more the statement, I think, probably that's trying to be communicated. Because, I mean, if you're, like I said, if you're really coming to Christianity, you don't just, I mean, I'm not talking about the mainstream charismatic, like the Word of Faith stuff, like you see Joel Osteen. No, not that. That's not it.
[1:05:42] Oh, I'm sorry. Is it pronounced Osteen? I thought it was pronounced Brillcreme, but I could be wrong about that.
[1:05:47] I don't know. It's Osteen. Yeah, yeah.
[1:05:49] Okay, go ahead.
[1:05:49] Yeah, T.D. Jakes, all of that. That stuff is really outside of it, you know, because you're talking about even orthodoxy and Catholics have noticed that that stuff isn't it, you know?
[1:06:03] Mm-hmm.
[1:06:05] It really does muddle the waters, and people don't know what Christianity is because, you know, it's all about warm fluffies and all that kind of stuff, and that's not Christianity.
[1:06:15] Oh, and prosperity doctrine.
[1:06:17] Yeah, the whole—it's called the Word of Faith movement, actually.
[1:06:19] Jesus will fill your bank account. I'm pretty sure that's not—I'm pretty sure that's not his job, yeah.
[1:06:24] No, it's not. It's Creflo Dollar and the rest of them. So, they're talking about places where you actually have to earn your place in the church, which is like the form theology. We're talking either, you know, Calvinist, Reformed Baptists, Baptist churches, talking Orthodoxy, Catholicism, you have to get catechesis, stuff like that. So, these are more areas where people have to, you don't just go into church and say, I want to be part of the church, you know, because they'll be like, okay, well, this is a path. This is not something you're just going to join and, you know, everything's fine.
[1:06:55] You got to earn it. Yeah. And so, for me, there's people in my life who quote wrong me, right? The soccer ball to the face. I forgive them because I'm recognizing it's just an accident there's no malevolence nothing to forgive right so so that's fine there are people who have done me wrong and listen I don't want to sound like some victim I've done other people wrong I had to apologize in fact I've done it on the show right but let's just pretend that I'm the only victim in the world but oh you're good so people who have done me wrong and they have recognized they're wrong whether I point it out or they come to it on their own if they come to it on their own even better but it's fine if I pointed out. And they listen, and we have great conversations about it. And then they apologize, and they make restitution if possible. They do something so that it's not likely to happen again, like if someone has a real bad temper, then they, let's take some silly example, they take a vase and throw it against the wall. That's my vase. Okay, they can buy me a new vase, and they can go into anger management, right? So this is not a real example, but something like that, right? So they apologize, they make restitution, and they take steps.
[1:07:59] To make it less likely that it's going to happen again okay that's that's honorable behavior and we all i mean i speak for myself i do wrong i have to apologize i haven't thrown a vase in a while but, actually ever but um but so there are people who have in a mature fashion stepped up to own their, wrongdoings and make restitution and and so on then and forgive right of course we forgive them because they've earned it and then there are people who don't who do terrible wrongs and never admit it and cling to their belief that they were justified and so on. I cannot in good conscience forgive those people because they haven't earned it. And why would I, it would be like paying an employee who shows up and works really hard and diligently and then paying the same amount of money to someone who steals a hundred thousand dollars from you and takes off and you continue to pay them, right? Like that's not fair. That's not right.
[1:08:51] That's not good. And you're subsidizing immorality.
[1:08:54] Sorry go ahead.
[1:08:54] All right and not just that also they could hold your ransom to your own morality as well so you have to forgive me yeah yeah yeah so now i made it to differentiation in the types of forgiveness because now i i think as created beings right we have a propensity and light and likeness of god in terms of that we're an image of god we're not you know god-like you know we're an image so we have characteristics right, But I think that limited ability to forgive is going to be at a human level. So, maybe we agree, technically, it's just that we don't have the same terminology, right? But maybe it's because I believe that we're limited in our forgiveness. Seriously, we're not able to fully forgive like God is able to fully forgive.
[1:09:41] Right? Well, because we don't have all the facts. We don't know for sure. Somebody could be a really cunning actor. Like, I remember one of Marlon Brando's kids was involved in some horrible crime, and he was up there. And, of course, the world's greatest actor on the witness stand. You don't know what the heck is true and what the heck is false because he's so compelling as a liar because the acting is lying basically right so so god knows the heart if somebody's genuinely apologizing or they're fake apologizing in order to exploit you further it may be hard to tell that from a human perspective but god would know the truth of the person's heart and motivations right.
[1:10:14] But the only thing we could do as humans is either one of two ways is okay you You hold them accountable then or, right, or there's a lesser punishment then or either you defer that and you kind of try to find out by time, right? So patterns of behavior, right? So you try to say, okay, let me just sit back or pull back a little bit and watch, right? So that I can be aware of what's going on. You know, not to fully withdraw from the situation because you don't want to cause a problem. But when you're dealing with people, you know, you kind of want to know how they let them know. hey, well, you know, this was an issue between you and me, we haven't addressed that, but since that's the case, you know, you're not going to be as interactive, you know? So, and maybe— Well.
[1:10:57] And also, God does not forgive the unrepentant.
[1:11:03] No, no, no, definitely.
[1:11:04] And not only that, that's the unforgivable sin. In the Bible, it is consistent that forgiveness must always follow repentance, that there is no such thing as forgiveness without repentance. Now, does Erica Kirk have the right to forgive someone who is unrepentant, which is not what God does, and not what the Bible commands? I don't think she has that right. And listen, I say this with all massive sympathy. You know, I don't hold her personally responsible for any theological missteps. I mean, she's processing the murder of her beloved husband. So this is, but I'm just talking sort of from a theological standpoint, we can say, I completely understand the impulse, the horror of the situation is so unbearable that if you find it a way of alleviating that horror is to say you forgive, you know, I can forgive that because, you know, I'm not in that horrible situation. If somebody murdered my beloved wife, I can't even comprehend the emotional turmoil, right? So it's not so much that, you know, Erica in her wild, incomprehensible grief, you know, made a theological misstep. That's not the issue to me. But with regards to Christianity as a whole.
[1:12:17] It is going against – you can't do the opposite of God and call yourself good. And you can't do the opposite of what the Bible commands and call yourself justified. And also it is not helpful. You know, you've, I don't know if you've heard these conversations I've had with people that their parents or some family member has done, done them wrong and they just pretend it didn't happen. And it's like, no, no, no, that's not good.
[1:12:39] That's not good. Like if you go to the doctor and he notices some giant wart on your back and doesn't say anything to you, that's not good for your health. He needs to say, Hey, you got to go get this checked out. It might need to be, it could be bad. Right.
[1:12:50] And so, and I agree with you. And just to, just to add real, really quickly, like you were saying, you know, people saying, you know, they had bad childhood. I had to do that with my own parents. You know, I had to sit down with my mother and go through that and say, Hey, this, this, this, this, this. And guess what? You know, she was like, you know what? You're right. I was composing this blah, blah, blah. She we went through all of that and guess what you know me and my mom now are close my dad passed away you know four years ago from brain cancer but you know it's you know to hear that from her and then own that you know yeah and then she wouldn't have had and i'm.
[1:13:23] Sorry about your father my.
[1:13:24] Father passed.
[1:13:25] Around similar time uh but.
[1:13:27] The fact.
[1:13:28] That you had that conversation with your mother and woke up her sleeping conscience to the knowledge of wrongdoing is a great gift we do not help people by not trying to stimulate their conscience with with reporting if they're wrongdoing that's like having no pain in your body if you have no pain in your body you're an you're in grave danger because.
[1:13:50] It just gets worse as time goes along and then not just that you have unresolved issues as an adult that you don't see because you haven't looked back into how you've really become an adult because some, you know, it's almost like the transition from teen to adult or even child to adult is so fast. You feel like you've arrived at 25. You don't know how you got there.
[1:14:14] Right. I'm pushing 60. I don't know how I got here.
[1:14:17] It's like, wow.
[1:14:18] At a more extreme level too. And maybe this is extreme. Maybe this is just more absolutist. But if your mother had a sin against you, and again, this is not to condemn your mother, of course, all parents have sins against their children and so on. But if you had withheld, feedback to your mother about the ways in which she had wronged you, then she would not have the opportunity to do right by earning your forgiveness and thus get back into good grace with God. You, in a sense, were condemning her to, I want to say to hell because that sounds very dramatic, but you were condemning her to a negative outcome by not stimulating her conscience and bringing into her consciousness wrongs that she was not aware of. That is, That is really, if you're the CEO of a company and an accountant finds that a whole bunch of money has been missing, do you want the accountant to tell you? Well, yeah.
[1:15:15] Yeah, of course.
[1:15:16] Because that way you can stem the theft, you can prosecute if necessary, and you won't get charged for some crime because you found out about it and acted against it. You want people to tell you when wrong is occurring. The only people who don't want that are criminals. The criminals don't want to be caught. So that is sort of my concern. You're not doing good to people in your life by withholding from them.
[1:15:42] And it's a false existence.
[1:15:43] Yeah, yeah, it's a false existence. And it is thou shalt not be a false witness. Yeah, you honor people by telling them the truth. So I suppose my issue is not, I mean, obviously I have no problem with forgiveness. I think it is actually a virtue in some circumstances and situations. It's a virtue when it's unintended and a natural shaping of living. It's a virtue when somebody has wronged you and they make restitution and apologize then you owe them forgiveness that's a matter of justice but when people have not apologized not admitted wrongdoing and a doubling down on their evils forgiveness is wrong it is wrong because it needs to be an incentive for good behavior not handed out like candy it's a form of socialism of the soul. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:16:26] Yeah, and I think maybe we can both agree that some different words could have been used, probably. Because that probably would, you know, as limited as my forgiveness is, you know, God can forgive infinitely, right? But still said something after that to hold him accountable, right? That would have made more sense, maybe.
[1:16:42] Oh, yeah. If she said, I pray that he finds his conscience and repents, and I pray that God—and you don't have to pray that God forgives the genuinely repentant, because God is infinitely knowledgeable and infinitely just. And if you genuinely repent, God will forgive you because God wouldn't want to be arbitrary or unjust. And so she could say, I pray that he finds his conscience and repents, but she cannot say, I forgive him because that is, dependent upon repentance, and reserved for all-knowing God in the end alone.
[1:17:16] All right. Well, I can agree with it. Something could have been said differently. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe that can be differentiated. Maybe I'll have more on that because I'll pick some notes.
[1:17:28] I appreciate that. Is there anything else you wanted to mention? It's been a great chat. I really do appreciate the conversation.
[1:17:33] I appreciate the time you've given me. Thank you. And the only other thing, I guess, is this this probably won't be as long is you know oh yeah yeah second topic sorry go ahead yes yes i'm black american so and i come from the south you know down in north carolina but you know i'm a i'm a military brat traveled so many places because my dad was military so but and for the longest time i remember you know he was he would always he would always he would always he would give me he would give me stern um advisement not to speak a certain way so you're not going to speak like that. You're going to speak like you know English.
[1:18:09] So he would sit, you know, I had so much trouble with English as a kid because I traveled to the Philippines. I was learning Filipino. I was learning Japanese in Japan. So, you know, when I came back to the States and Colorado, I just struggled so much with English. And he sat down with me for hours going through writing words in synthesis correctly, you know? So when I look around and I see my community just completely give over to not being accountable, you know? And then I go overseas and I see places like Uganda, different countries where they have way less, you know? And they don't even like Black Americans because of how irresponsible you are over here, you know? And working in the tech field, I've seen people come over from Nigeria and they come over here and they are, you know, astute, accountable.
[1:19:04] They're knowledgeable, they know what they're doing they're not lazy, none of that stuff but then in my own community it's like.
[1:19:11] I know it's the absence of the father, in particular, and the incentivization of the single mother being on the government, but it's like, and I really do think, unfortunately, the avoidance of any kind of accountability, even in culture, has caused this decay of just outright dependence on the government and blame on white people. And I'll go out to other white people that I see on the street and police officers say, look, don't get caught up in that. That's not right. It's disgusting. Don't get discouraged by that because when I see other white people, they talk about it. I'm like, don't get discouraged by that. I say, that is foolishness. I'm embarrassed of my own community. We need to self-introspect first. We don't need reparations for anything. The Europeans need reparations for being uh europeans and um what's the other uh europeans who else was the most trafficked i can't remember it was europeans were the most trafficked from europe to i think it to the muslim nations oh yeah like easy easy two billion and and slaves and.
[1:20:24] All kinds of.
[1:20:24] Terrible stuff yeah it was the europeans and i was the asians i can't remember but it was somebody else if.
[1:20:30] You sort of western europeans i mean we couldn't.
[1:20:32] Even live.
[1:20:33] By the coast we had to give up fishing because the Muslim raiders were so predatory. But from what I've heard, I don't know if it's true, that the word slave comes from Slav, so the Eastern Europeans were also enslaved in truly wretched fashion.
[1:20:46] Yes most definitely um so it's like the whole world needs reparations and even the europeans their operations and said that's a never-ending revenge train you know yeah they have to let go of that that that that you know that in particular not only that i don't even think the slaves at the time were wanting any of the stuff that these people want now you know like if i look at like even the old uh chain gang songs that were being sung right oh don't make me break out.
[1:21:12] My sam cook man you'll you'll.
[1:21:14] Regret it but anyway i know i listened to those things and they weren't talking about reparations and none of that all of it was god and i want to go home and bring me home and i just want to work and you know be with my family it was so simple and we've extrapolated this out to you owe me something you can't say something because you know you're white or you look white it's just it's disgusting and i'm you know for me i you know i i can't apologize enough when i run people because it's just it's disgusting to me well it's nothing for you to apologize.
[1:21:48] For because there's no i mean i think that the power corrupts i mean this is the this is the great danger of of political power power corrupted the slave owners because the government enforced all the slave contracts and caught all.
[1:21:59] The runaway slaves.
[1:22:00] And delivered them back to the slave owners so all the government had to do and this is the case in brazil all the government had to.
[1:22:06] Do to.
[1:22:06] End slavery was stopping forcing slave contracts. So slavery was a government program, and it is very easy to let the government do your dirty and wrong work for you. And the same thing is true, not of course, just among blacks, but among all people who are dependent on the SNAP and the welfare state and the disability and all of this stuff. It's like, well, you're having the government go and take other people's money and give it to you, which is a form of enslavement in a way. Certainly, it's not as egregious as direct chattel slavery, but power corrupts. And if you can get stuff for free, like slave contracts enforced or like the welfare state, then you're going to take it. And it's really a power corrupts everyone. And we got to be humble about that.
[1:22:46] Yeah they have so and then what what happens is yeah you know what it you know we take away see this is the danger with social programs once you give people uh sustenance like that you take it away from them they're gonna become bum.
[1:22:58] Oh yeah you know well now now it's basically you saw this with the snap thing and now it's yeah it's basically just a hey it's a nice city you've got there be a shame if something happened to it it's like you better get my money going again and this is true not just for the black community but you know for the the white community the the east asian community the middle eastern community the the asian community so yeah it's very much like oh well now i've got used to all of this quote free stuff and if it doesn't you know if it doesn't come i'm i'm gonna get and now it's basically i think just it's like a shakedown uh more than it is any kind of charity because charity to be moral has to be voluntary yeah.
[1:23:34] It's and i can't i can't remember like because i remember specifically i used to live in dc and so So DC was one of the worst places I would get approached from because I would actually take the transit, right? And I swear to you, Stef, the the the amount of people selling snaps down there i mean i couldn't go from there because i was working at several different departments there sometimes uh down in dc and so i i would get approached by at least 12 people to sell their apps to sell their snaps for cash wow and so and everything i'll reject them every time it's just that i was just like wow okay so this is where that money's going people are trying to do other stuff with it you know so um you go to 7-eleven, there's certain areas down here in dc where people are selling them outside of designated 7-elevens and stuff like that 7-elevens are hot spots for these kinds of things that happened so like uh yeah it's just it's that people don't know how gross uh snap is really misused well.
[1:24:35] And and of course all of the women who have become surly and vengeful and lazy and negative because they don't need a husband to provide for them because they've got the government, that's a really tough emotional set of habits to suddenly reverse, right? And to say, I mean, if all of this stuff went away tomorrow, then the single moms would have to find ways to get providers or they'd all pool their resources and all go to work at various times while other people watch their kids, which would actually be way better for the kids and would give a sense of community to the single moms. But, you know, they just have to be nice. And again, I'm not talking about just black women here, although I love Kevin Samuels, like, can you just smile at a black guy once in a while?
[1:25:18] Yeah, yeah, he's great.
[1:25:19] Yeah, but so, and this is what, it's festered these sort of negative behaviors, like slavery festers cruelty in the slave owner, and getting, quote, free stuff in the government, it does tend to increase the most negative possible behaviors, which then become very, very tough to reverse over time.
[1:25:43] Yes, I remember. So there's also there's there's also something, I guess, that came out of I think it was this is a guy that was a KGB agent. He came over and he literally said, your institutions are already infiltrated. You know, you're he said, he said, you guys are already too late down the road. This is the 1960. And I was just like, wow, this video is out here and no one. I was just astonished. And then you have a black economist who was talking about you know, he was talking about what would happen in 2000s and late now. He's saying that what he said in the 1990s is happening now where people are on SNAP and if SNAP was to disappear or benefits were to retract because of government budget you know, people would be violent and depending upon what percent of the population is on that, which what is it, like, uh, isn't it like 10 million Americans or something?
[1:26:39] I think it was a bit higher than that, but it's a, it's a, it's a not insignificant number for sure.
[1:26:44] Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty significant number of Americans that can be weaponized, Uh, just for the sake of the fact that there are all these benefits, I don't, I don't mind, you know, people having assistance, but I think it has to be very, very, very limited. Not only that, I really honestly would outsource that to, to, to churches.
[1:27:04] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, because you need individual knowledge of the circumstances. Some people you give money to, and I've, and I'm obviously not some, some big charity here, but I've certainly given quite a bit of money to listeners over the years for therapy and any of they need sort of, and some people you give them money and it turns their life around for the better and other people you give them money and it reinforces their worst habits and you need very detailed knowledge of who you're helping in order to just firing a cannon full of money at people uh is is actually doing a lot more harm than good but of course it alleviates it's like you know it's like heroin for a toothache it alleviates your symptoms in the short run but it causes more problems down the road and i think that down the road is getting closer because it's really cruel to get people addicted to a system that can't last i mean you're just setting yourself up for massive chaos yeah.
[1:27:51] Social security is about to about to not be able to be paid in 2030 so that that's going to cause a problem but you know i've been homeless i've been that guy that was homeless and that was coming out and that was coming out of the military because after you get out of the military it's okay bye deuces right um and so i i was i told myself i was like you know i'm never going to be again, you know? And there was this one other black guy, he came from, because I came up here to, Baltimore, not Baltimore, but excuse me, it was near D.C., it was like Bladesburg, and this guy saw me out of a 7-Eleven, and this guy helped me out of nowhere, just cherry, straight cherry.
[1:28:30] I didn't know this guy from anyone. He could have been anyone, right? I had my stuff packed under a bridge somewhere. I was like, Lisa's sick, they got my laptop vinyl and clothes. I had, you know, My first wife had passed away about a year and two prior to a car accident from an immigrant that didn't speak English.
[1:28:50] Oh, gosh.
[1:28:51] And so I was just like, okay, so I'm in this situation obviously because, you know, I got depressed, got too caught up in myself and, you know, wasn't proactive a little bit, you know. So, yeah, it left me in a bad situation. I'm not going to be here again, right? So he came over. He said, hey, are you homeless? I was like, oh, yeah. He didn't know I was homeless. There's no way you could have. I had a collared shirt and everything, nice in the iron jeans. And he said he took me out of the street, put me in a hotel for two weeks. He took me to every appointment I needed to go to so I could get back on my feet. Because I went from basically making almost $100K one time to making zero and then went over that after he helped me get my job. The remarkable thing is I never saw this guy ever again. You know and i could never tell i could never give back to this guy and to this day i don't know if he was an angel or something because i i couldn't find his number in my in my phone logs anymore because i had the same phone you know right so i had no data on him like at all i couldn't contact him it's like he just disappeared that's why so what a story i mean that's.
[1:30:02] Certainly a man who read his bible.
[1:30:04] Yeah, so I'm telling you, you know, I'm just thankful for that kind of situation. But it's that, and I remember meeting another veteran on the street. I was like, he was 20, he was 28. He was older than he had until I was like 25 or something. He was like, I was like, how long have you been here? He's like, eight years. I was like, why? I was like, well, you know, he said, I like smoking weed a lot. I was like, you got to get off that, man. I was like, you got to get off that. I said, I'm not going to be here. Look, I said, I'm going to, I said, I'm going to, this is like my third month. I'm not going to be here like this. He said, you don't need to be here. I said, you need to stop smoking that stuff You need to get yourself a job Focus, if you need to, hang out with me We'll focus together, but you need to not do that No more, So, lo and behold I went to another shelter And then I got into another place And I'm doing way better now Way much better now, It's about, okay Really, your attitude And where you're coming from Because a lot of people that are here, at least in the United States Are either here because of some issue because they can't take care of themselves or either, you know, they're on drugs.
[1:31:05] Right.
[1:31:05] So, because I've been on most of these homeless shelters in D.C. And most of these people are on drugs.
[1:31:14] Yes, that's true. And that's self-medicating usually for bad childhood. All right. Well, listen, I really appreciate the call today and certainly shoot me up or hit me up any time you like to talk more because it was a really great chat and I'd love to hear what people have to say about this discussion because I think it was very important.
[1:31:31] Thank you. Thank you, sir. And I appreciate your time and good luck to you out there and to your family. I hope you have a wonderful day yourself.
[1:31:37] Yours too. Thanks, man. Bye.
[1:31:39] All right.
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