In this segment from the 28 September 2025 Sunday Morning Live Donors stream, Stefan delves into the dynamics of toddler behavior and parenting strategies, specifically focusing on a parent's experience with their three-year-old son who recently expressed a desire for autonomy regarding the order of putting on socks. He addresses the common challenge parents face when children's wants and demands test boundaries and authority. This scenario serves as a springboard for discussing broader concepts of negotiation, power dynamics in parenting, and the importance of fostering reasoning skills in young children.
Stefan begins with acknowledging the child's assertion of preference when it comes to the order of sock-wearing, framing it as a potential power struggle. He proposes that this behavior is a natural developmental stage in which children test their influence and authority over their parents. The central question emerges: Is the child misusing their power, or is this behavior a normal part of growing up? He suggests that it is essential for parents to respond honestly to their children's desires while maintaining their own authoritative stance without succumbing to emotional manipulation — essentially teaching the child about boundaries and the essence of decision-making.
Through a series of hypothetical exchanges, Stefan demonstrates how to navigate such situations effectively. By examining the underlying motivations for a child's choices, he emphasizes the importance of asking open-ended questions rather than immediately conceding to demands. For instance, when the child insists that he wants his left sock on first, the parent can respond by asking why that preference matters, thus encouraging the child to articulate their reasoning. This interactive approach allows the child to engage in a dialogue about wants and needs, ultimately aiding in their cognitive development.
Furthering the discussion, Stefan introduces Universally Preferable Behavior (UPB) as a conceptual framework for making sense of these interactions. He elaborates on UPB by comparing the situation with a negotiation where both parties have distinct wants. The inquiry then transitions to whether personal desires should dictate actions. He posits that it is crucial for children to grasp that while it's natural to want their preferences met, it is equally important to understand that others have their own preferences and limitations. This exploration ultimately leads to a discussion about creating fairness and the practical challenges of accommodating everyone's wants.
Stefan also touches upon philosophical underpinnings through the lens of Kant's categorical imperative, explaining the child’s need to think about the universality of rules. By framing the conversation around whether the child's desire should hold the same weight as the parent's, he encourages a reflective dialogue essential to moral reasoning. These exchanges teach children about the negotiation of wants versus needs in interpersonal relationships, laying the groundwork for future social interactions.
Using tangible examples, Stefan illustrates how the communication of desires can lead to conflict and misunderstanding. The effective use of analogies, such as comparing negotiations to trying to create a "square circle," underscores the impossibility of having conflicting wants coexist without resolution. Throughout his response, he encourages parents to guide children in recognizing that the balance of desires requires the acknowledgment of trade-offs in various situations.
In conclusion, Stefan emphasizes that while a three-year-old might not fully comprehend the complexities of negotiation and authority, early exposure to these concepts through thoughtful dialogue and questioning can set a foundation for developing empathy and understanding. By engaging with their child in meaningful conversations and allowing them to navigate their emotions and preferences, parents can equip their children with the critical thinking skills necessary for healthy social interactions as they grow.
0:03 - Understanding Toddler Behavior
0:07 - Power Struggles in Parenting
3:24 - The Importance of Honest Communication
7:03 - Negotiating Wants and Needs
9:42 - The Universality of Rules
12:54 - Exploring Concepts of Trade-offs
16:21 - Teaching Reality Through Examples
[0:00] Uh, hi Stef, I have a son who just turned three.
[0:03] I try to follow his lead a lot and cater to his desires, e.g.
[0:07] What playground we go to, which fruit to eat for a snack, etc. But lately I am unsure whether he is misusing his power or if it's just a normal stage of toddlerhood. Example one, I put on his socks and I'm almost done when he proclaims, Oh no, mama, I wanted my right sock on first when I put his left sock on first. what's your approach? Is it a power struggle? Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. So he's testing whether you are a sort of obedience robot. You're testing how much power he has.
[0:47] He's testing how much power he has. So I'm trying to think, I put myself in your shoes. Ooh, tight. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Okay. So my kid says, I wanted my left sock put on first.
[1:01] So then I would say he's three, right? Is he closer to four or closer to three? Like at this age, that makes a big difference. It's like 25% of his entire lifespan. It's like 15 to 20 years later on in life. Is he closer to four or is he closer to three? My friend, if you can just let me know. So the essential thing with your kids, of course, is to be honest with them. So if he says, Mama, I wanted my left sock put on first, I would say, but I don't want, to put your left sock on first, because you don't care, right? So he says, you're putting on his socks, you finish putting on his socks, and he says, I wanted my left sock put on first. So you can say, why? Why do you want your left sock put on first? And if he doesn't have a good reason, you say, well, I don't, I don't care which sock goes on your foot first. I care about you, but I don't care. It doesn't really matter. Like you both end up with socks on your feet. But I would say, be honest and say, I don't want to put your left sock on first. Now, my guess is then, excuse me, my guess is then that he would escalate, maybe cry, maybe get upset because he really, really wants.
[2:30] His left sock put on first, or at least that's what he claims. And then I would say, should we get what we want because we cry? Which is an interesting, not with prejudice, like how dare you think that you get what you want because you cry, right? Should we get what we want because we cry? So if you want your left sock put on first, and I don't want to put your left sock on first because I don't care and it doesn't matter. And I, you know, I just don't want to have all of these rules, right? I don't want to be like, well, my kid's going to be happy if I put the left sock on first, but he's not going to be happy if I, like, that's just, and those rules can get lots and lots, right? So it's a UPB question or conversation, which is.
[3:17] Should everyone get what they want because they cry? Oh, he just turned three. Okay. So he's, early on.
[3:25] So should I do what you want because you're upset? That's a big question, right? And I think a three-year-old can handle it. Should you do what I want? So for instance, if I want you to eat your veggies and you don't want to eat your veggies, should you eat your veggies because I'm crying or because I'm upset or because I really want you to, right? So a three, again, you'd have to simplify it with more empirical examples because he's early three, not late three, but it would be something like, do you remember when I wanted you to eat your vegetables last night and you said no? And this is an interesting question. And it is an interesting question, right? Thank you for the donation. I appreciate that. So if you say to your kid, should we get what we want because we're upset, right? That's an interesting question. So we have, we're butting heads and there's nothing wrong with that. People have disagreements, but.
[4:29] If I should put your left sock on first because you really want me to, and I really don't want to put your left sock on first, who's right? What should happen? Now, we can have a discussion for sure. But if we say, you should have your left sock put on first because otherwise you'll be upset, then can I do that too? Can I say, you have to eat your vegetables, otherwise I'm upset. Is upset, is getting mad, sad, bad, or glad, or whatever, is that the reason why we do things?
[5:08] Now, that's a very, and we put those four, we put those questions to our children as these are very interesting questions. Not from a moral standpoint as yet, because you want children to understand morality before you inflict it. Otherwise, you're just saying, well, you're wrong or it's bad or it's negative or not evil because they're like little kids or whatever, right? But, you know, it's wrong. It's wrong to get mad at mommy because I don't do what you want. That's being a bully, and I'm not saying you would say that. But we don't want to teach kids.
[5:43] The consequences of right and wrong before they understand right and wrong. So the UPB question goes something like this. Mom, I really wanted you to put my left sock on first. Say, ah, that's an interesting question. Should I do it? Yes, you should, because I want you to. That's very interesting, and I appreciate that. And of course, I want to do things that make you happy. Is that true for everyone? Because if he's smart enough to say he wants his left sock on first, he's smart enough to get this. You say, is that true for everyone? So do I have to do what you want because you really want me to? Yes. Okay. Do you have to do what I want you to do because I really want you to? Because we're both people, right? We're both human beings.
[6:40] So if I have to put your left sock on because you really want me to, do you have to eat vegetables because I really want you to? Now he's got a calculation to make, right? Now things get really interesting for a kid because, of course, he wants you to do what he wants because he wants it. Sure, of course.
[7:02] I mean, you know, he's a kid.
[7:03] That's what they want, right? Do what I want because I want you to. Because, you know, they're somewhat helpless. He can't put his own socks on or whatever, right? So if it's a one-sided equation, then he's just going to expect you to do things because he wants you to do them. And who can blame him? I couldn't blame him. Some kids want to get what they want.
[7:27] But if it's like, okay, so the cost of me wanting you to put my left sock on is I have to eat my vegetables. Ooh. Right now that's interesting right so another is i want you to put my left sock on first hey that's i appreciate you telling me that that's a big it's a big and interesting question, so you want me to do it i don't understand why like it doesn't really matter in some big way right whether it's left or both both the socks end up on both feet we say so i should do what you want because you want me to do it? Do you have to do what I want because I want you to do it? Like last night, I wanted you to go to bed and you didn't want to go to bed. Right? And that's an interesting question. And I don't know the answer because it's complicated, but it's an interesting question. This is what I would say. It's an interesting question.
[8:26] So do I do what you want because you want me to? Then the deal is you have to do what I want you to do because I want you to. You have to do what I want because I want you to. Because we can't have totally different rules, right? That would be like saying to go upstairs, I have to go down into the basement and you have to climb the stairs to upstairs, right? We can't have opposite rules, right?
[9:00] So, and that would be the first thing, right? And that gives him pause, right? Now he has to say, okay, well, if I want my mom to do what I want because I want to, then what do I do when my mom wants stuff? Like now he's got, it's the beginning of learning how to really negotiate with people, right? It's to recognize the wants of self and other. So that would be the first thing. Now, I think my guess is that he's smart enough for this. And by that, I don't mean basically intelligent, but brain development stuff. I don't mean anything like that, right? But I would also give him the second level of UPB.
[9:39] The first level is Kant's categorical imperative, right?
[9:43] I wouldn't explain it to him that way. I can't because Kant. But it would be like, if that's the rule for you, will you accept that rule for everyone? Right act as if the principle of your action becomes a general rule for everyone, so that's that first part is more of Kant's categorical imperative or just basic morals how would you like it if right if you snatch something from someone else how would you like it if someone snatched from you blah blah blah right but the second so the real essence of the upb conversation goes something like this.
[10:16] So, and you could even use his favorite toys, his plushies, you know, Bob and Sally or whatever it is, right? So you could bring up his little plushies or his hand puppets or whatever. I'd say, okay, so Bob says Sally has to do something just because Bob wants him to, but Sally doesn't want to do it. So who wins? Doesn't it cancel each other out?
[10:42] So if the rule is everyone has to do what everyone else wants well you want me to put the left sock on i don't want it so we cancel each other out and we can't both get what we want therefore it's not i mean there's a problem with the rule that everyone has to do what everyone else wants.
[11:02] Because if i want to read and you want to go to the park then i have to want to take you to the park because I have to do what you want, but you also have to stay and watch me read because you have to do what I want and we can't decide what we're going to do. It's impossible because we can't both sit here and read and go to the park. So it fails. It doesn't like, and then you can sit there and say, okay, and this is what I did with my daughter when I was trying to explain paradoxes. I'd say, okay, get the pencil, get the crayon, get the marker or whatever. And get the paper and say, okay, I want you to draw a square circle. I want you to draw a square circle. And of course, you know, the kids always draw, you know, it's a circle. It's a square with rounded corners. I said, no, that's not a circle. Neither is it a square, right? And my daughter actually worked on this for a while because she was convinced that she could somehow produce a square circle, right? Okay. And so something can't be a circle and a square at the same time. Or if they're more tangible, you get them a ball, right? Get them, I got this little, what is this? Oh, a little ball of lip balm. It's dry in the studio. So you take them the ball, right? And you say, show me the edges. Where are the sharp edges on the ball?
[12:28] All right, right? I want you to cut a tomato with that ball or cut an apple maybe with that ball or something tangible and say, so this is right. Can something be a ball and have a sharp edge? No. If it has a sharp edge, it ain't a ball. It's not a ball, right? Something can't be a spoon and a knife at the same time. You wouldn't use a knife to eat soup and you wouldn't use a spoon to cut an apple, right?
[12:55] So the rule we do what other people want is like a square circle it's like a ball with an edge, it doesn't work it's not possible so we have to have some other way of figuring out what we do other than i do what you want you do what i want because our wants are not going to be the same right you want to play i want to cook or i have to cook or something like that right and i can't both play and cook. Otherwise, we're going to end up with toys in the soup or soup on the carpet, right? You can make jokes, this kind of stuff, right? Do you want to eat Barbie stew? Do you want to eat Thomas the Tank Engine stew? You don't want to eat My Little Pony Burgers, do you?
[13:36] Oh, hairy! And silicon. So I would have those conversations about him, or with him, to get him to understand. Now, of course, he's not going to come out of that because again, he's just turned three. So he's not going to come out of that with some big understanding of how to negotiate because that's big and complicated. But what he will do is he will recognize, you know, with my daughter, it's always like, it's one dial. Like, so you know, those, you have two dials, right? This used to be on EQs, right? You have these, I show you, I move the camera, I can show you, but I don't see my messy desk here, but you have these dials. So you can see them on windows. You can see them and equalizers, you dial up the bass and the treble. So in most of these multi-dial systems, you can just move one dial up and the other dial doesn't go up. Like many, many, many moons ago, when I was a director of technology, I programmed a prototype. It was really, really great. So one of the things that people have in large organizations is everybody wants their own budget, right? And so we had a list of projects, and they were categorized by various, sorry, They were categorized by various categories. They were sorted by various categories. And you had a fixed budget, and you assigned priority. Like maybe building something new was more important than maintenance. Right?
[15:01] And so there were five columns of various categorized projects, and you had a fixed budget. And if you dragged one dial up, the other dials went down based on the relative importance of them. So if you wanted to spend more on maintenance, oh, I want to get this done.
[15:17] Then the other dials would have to go down. And you could even change the budget if you got more budget. But it was a way of really explaining to people and having them vividly and visually understand there are no solutions, only trade-offs. If you're going to spend more on this, you have to spend less somewhere else. And that was a really powerful piece of software that actually sold a lot of systems, which was, because people who are the budgeters are always trying to get everyone to explain that resources are finite and desires are infinite. And this was a way of just saying, I mean, no, I don't have the code anymore. That was with another company. But it was a really great piece of software to explain to people, and just based on my basic knowledge of economics, that if you want to spend more here, and I wish they'd shown this to the boomers, right? You got a column called foreign aid. You got a column called the welfare state. You got a column called unemployment insurance. You got a column called pensions. You got a column called healthcare. You got an interest on the debt. And you got your taxes, right? And if you dial up one, you got to dial down another, right?
[16:19] It's just basically teaching. It's teaching reality to people.
[16:21] Like I'm doing this show. I'm not working out at the same time. I did occasionally in the past, But it was a really great piece of software, and it would be great to have this at a government site.
[16:32] Or to say to people who want to spend more, I remember in my documentary on California.
[16:39] Sunset in the Golden State, freedomain.com/documentaries, I confronted the city council of Los Angeles and said, well, how are you going to pay for all this stuff? Like, you've got the spending wish list, but you don't have the budget. Like, what are you cutting? Right? So if you want to spend more, like, oh, I want to increase foreign aid. Okay, what do you want to, if you bring that, other stuff comes down, right? But of course, with fiat currency, that chart is just a fantasy dildo to torment the next generation with. But it was really, so sort of my point with this is that if you dial up for the kid, do what I want because I want you to, then you dial it up for everyone. That's the universality of UPB, right? Dial it up for everyone. And if you dial it up for everyone, then the system doesn't work. Logically, the moment you dial it up, you get a square circle, and therefore it can't work. So that would be my approach to it. Yes, it was. It was actually very clever software, and I came up with it and programmed it entirely on my own, and it became a core part of the demo for the software as a whole.
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