0:07 - Gentle Parenting Insights
13:20 - The Challenge of Authenticity
25:06 - Connecting with Children’s Emotions
In this episode, we dive deep into the complexities and contradictions of gentle parenting, exploring its intended benefits and the backlash it has faced from parents who are exhausted and confused. Highlighting the insights of Polly Dunbar, who candidly shares her experiences, I discuss the moment she decided to abandon the gentle parenting approach when faced with a situation at a playful soft play session with her son. We reflect on how the ideals of gentle parenting, meant to foster empathy and connection, sometimes lead to conflicts that leave both parents and children feeling frustrated.
I unpack the notion that gentle parenting emphasizes never saying no, validating every feeling, and avoiding traditional disciplinary methods. Yet, the reality is that such a method may inadvertently indulge a child's desires without providing necessary boundaries. It's essential to examine why a child might resist transitioning from a fun activity—such as leaving a play area—and what this resistance says about their relationship with their parent. I draw on my own experiences with my daughter, emphasizing the importance of establishing a connection where children look forward to spending time together, rather than wanting to remain engaged in other activities deemed more enjoyable.
We explore Polly’s skepticism towards the scripted methodologies advocated by some parenting experts, as she finds them inauthentic. These scripts, designed to validate a child’s feelings while simultaneously enforcing boundaries, may feel more like manipulation to both parents and children. Real interactions, I argue, require authenticity and emotional honesty, allowing for genuine connections rather than rehearsed dialogues. Polly reflects on how, in moments of conflict, sometimes the most effective approach is a direct intervention rather than a lengthy discussion about feelings, highlighting the necessity of balance between nurturing a child's emotional world and maintaining parental authority.
The episode further critiques the potential dangers of an overly emotion-centered parenting style that attempts to meet every emotional need of a child. I discuss how this focus could inadvertently cultivate self-obsessed attitudes in children and how adult emotions should be integrated into parenting practices to demonstrate that it's normal for humans to experience a range of feelings. This leads us to the conversation about the need for boundaries in parenting—an integral part of helping children feel secure. Parents are reminded that structure and rules provide a framework within which children thrive.
Moreover, we reflect on my own parenting experiences while recounting anecdotes and lessons learned. I emphasize that being present, actively engaging, and showing genuine love and interest are pivotal in fostering happy family dynamics. I critique the societal pressures placed on parents, especially mothers, to adhere to idealized parenting styles, which often neglect the authenticity required in day-to-day parenting. The conversation brings us back to the importance of parents being true to their emotions, as children are adept at sensing inauthenticity.
In closing, I pose the question of how parents can offer their children the best of both worlds—supporting their emotional development while also preparing them for the realities of life and the importance of personal accountability. Ultimately, I encourage listeners to embrace authenticity and engage with their children in a manner that allows for growth while being firmly rooted in genuine connection.
[0:00] Alrighty, so a little bit more on gentle parenting, which I find quite a fascinating adjunct to peaceful parenting.
[0:08] So gentle parenting is no way to bring up children, and I should know. The mild-mannered parenting style, popularized by millennials, which means never saying no or raising your voice, is facing a backlash from exhausted and confused mothers, worried they're producing a generation of indulged and self-obsessed brats. Polly Dunbar, who tried it on her own son, understands why. This is from December 2023. So I can pinpoint, she says, the exact moment I was done with gentle parenting. Sorry, let me just make sure that this is by Polly Dunbar. So she says, I can pinpoint the exact moment I was done with gentle parenting. The soft play session had ended, but my three-year-old son didn't want to leave. And he'd had three more minutes at least four times. He was hot, hungry, and tired, and I could see exactly where things were heading. We'd been there before and neither of us liked it. Now, again, I understand I have a daughter, but I have a very fierce and strong-willed daughter. So I'm not going to say that she's any kind of putty or pliable or anything like that. Very, very strong-willed.
[1:19] But... If your children, and I'm just going from the outside here, I don't know what her relationship is like with her son, but if your children really, really, really enjoy your company, then they'll go wherever you go, and they'll be usually happy to go. If you say we have to go, then they know that they're going to have fun in the car. The problem is if your children don't particularly enjoy your company or don't look forward to it massively or love spending time with you, then you're going to have a problem in that your children find things more enjoyable than spending time with you. And therefore, they will want to stay where things are more fun. And I mean, my daughter, we had a lot of fun in the car. A lot of we would role play in the car. Also, we used to do this game where we would pretend to be shooting aliens coming from the moon. We had a game where she had to take a bad guy and turn him into a good guy, kind of my life mission, and we would play word games about that. So we just had a blast in the car. And so it wasn't like leaving was terrible, right? It wasn't like if we go somewhere and it's fun and then I I have to go for some reason.
[2:45] It's not terrible. And, you know, just why do you have to go? Right? The soft play session had ended, but I didn't want to leave. So why do you have to go? It's always the big question. Why do you have to go? So anyway, so if you don't have to go, just stay, right? Like last night, I wanted to go to bed, and my daughter was showing me various things that she'd saved on her phone, and they were very, very, very funny. And she, oh gosh, we saw some video about, no, I showed her something, and then she showed me stuff. I showed her a video about some cosplayers and how many hours they'd put on video games, and there was a Baldus Gate 3 person, and she says, 250, and the guy said, 250, and she jumped up and down with joy that she got it right. And it was just really like I was tired. I wanted to go to bed, but it was just a blast staying up and chatting about these things. So, you know, I can, I'll be mellow when I'm dead, right? I'll sleep when I'm dead. So anyway, she says, I tried the script, the one that the Instagram parenting gurus swear by. First, you validate their feelings. You don't want to leave. It's so tough. You're feeling cross. Then you hold the boundary. It's time to go. Then you sprinkle on a little sweetener. That you can choose which program you want to watch when we get home.
[4:12] So don't do a script, man. Do not do a script. A script is so fundamentally inauthentic that the kid just knows they're being played. The kid just knows when they're being manipulated. I'm asking nicely. I've tried asking nicely. And it's like there's a threat sort of in behind that. So a script, validating their feelings. What's the point of validating your feelings if the kid knows you're just saying that to get him to do what you want? Right? That's not an honest, genuine interaction.
[4:47] So, it's time to go. How do you hold the boundary? And then you bribe, right? So, I don't know, validating their feelings is, that's a girl thing. That's a girl thing. Men or boys, I suppose, having the validated feelings, if you understand the feelings you don't want to leave, then stay, right? Then stay. And of course, have you obtained an agreement on how long you'll stay before you go? So if I had some place I had to be, and my daughter wanted to go, say, to a play center when she was little, I would say, I'd love to take you to a play center. The deal is, we can stay there for like an hour and a half. And then I have to go. Now we can go another time and we can stay longer, but we have to stay for an hour and a half. Is that okay? Like, because otherwise we just can't go, right? I mean, if you want to stay for two hours, I'm going to miss, you know, if I had to go to the dentist or something like that, right, then I would say, well, you know, there's a place center near the dentist. We can go there, but I have a call and then we have to drive there so we can stay there for an hour and a half, which I'd love to do, but it is. So do you have this agreed to ahead of time?
[5:59] And if you haven't got an agreement ahead of time, it's kind of tough to impose one later. And three-year-olds can handle that. Will they know exactly what an hour and a half is? No, but you sort of tell them and so on, right? And then if they want to stay longer, then you can say, well, we did have a deal, right? We had a deal. If you're not going to keep your deal, I mean, you could do that. I mean, I'm not going to pick you up and drag you out, obviously, right?
[6:32] But if you're not going to keep your deal, we can't make deals, right? Like, you got to come here because you had agreed to leave after an hour and a half. It is an hour and a half now. I do have to get to the dentist because if I don't go to the dentist, I have to pay for a missed appointment. We have to come back, and I can't do deals with you for at least a while, right? And I would say, like, maybe you're too young to make the deals. And, you know, I wasn't mad at her. But you can have, so what will happen is you'll have another 10 or 15 or 20 minutes here or whatever. I won't be enjoying it. And I would just stop playing with her because I want to go. And so you can have another little bit of time here to play on your own. But that just means we can't make deals for, you know, for at least another month or two or three. So, you know, trust me, you're going to lose out on a lot more place interest than you're going to get just now. So, I mean, these are all facts, right? These are all just facts. And so I don't know this validating the feelings. It's time to go. And so on, right? And the bribery, I don't think, right? Anyway, she says, did it diffuse the situation? If anything, it inflamed it. In that moment, it was very clear to me, she says, that I could have the diplomacy skills of Kofi Annan paired with the relentless cheeriness of a CBeebies presenter. I don't know what that is. But they would be useless here. Sometimes if you want to preschool or to go somewhere they don't want to go, what you really need to do is stop talking, pick them up, and carry them out. Right.
[7:57] Right. The big question is, why won't the child reason with you? And this blowing through this question of why the child won't reason with you, is really, really interesting. It's a fascinating question. I would very rarely have anything like this with my daughter. In fact, I can't think of a time where the speech I mentioned before about if you want to stay at the play center, we can stay.
[8:26] But I'm not going to pick you up and drag you out. But I'm not going to play with you. And we can't make deals for a while. We can't make deals for a while. And maybe you're too young and so on. And I would say this like, well, maybe you're just too young to make a deal. You know, snarky. It's just like, well, you know, maybe. And then it's my fault, right? It's my fault. But because I kept my deals whenever humanly possible. I remember going to, oh, was it the White Mountains or something?
[8:53] Going to, oh, gosh, Porkfest. Like when my daughter was very, very little, she said, we stopped at a motel shortly before we got there. And there was a pool. My daughter, of course, as a little kid, loved pools, still does. And she said, can we do the pool? And I was really tired. It had been a long drive. And I said, I promise you we'll do it in the morning. We'll do it in the morning. And then we had to go in the morning. But I got up an hour early, hour and a half, I think it was, which I really didn't want to do. and we went to the pool and we had fun at the pool. But so she knows I will move heaven and earth to keep my deals. And if I move heaven and earth to keep my deals, then asking her to keep her deals is kind of reasonable and so on, right? So I don't honestly think we had any particular problem that way. So, all right. Among millennials, she says, gentle parenting is ubiquitous and approach intended to be more respectful and empathetic than the authoritarian rigid style common in previous generations, offering choices rather than making demands, avoiding shouting, and using negative words such as don't, no, can't, and bad. Gentle parents don't resort to punishments such as Supernanny's favor at the naughty step, instead delving into the feelings, causing unwanted behavior so children feel understood, which in turn theoretically makes them better able to regulate their emotions.
[10:11] So yeah, delve into the feelings, but not with the goal of getting them to change their behavior. So if you say to your kid, basically, well, I validated your feelings, now you have to do what I want you to do. I validated your feelings, now you have to do what I want you to do, then you're not really curious about the child's feelings. You're just trying to find levers or say words that cast like a control spell over their emotional apparatus, right? It's sort of like if you ask a girl out and the girl doesn't want to go out with you and you say, well, why not? It's not because you're genuinely curious. You're just asking why she doesn't want to go out with you in order to overcome her objections and have her go out with you, right? If you are trying to sell a car to someone, you're a car dealer, or you're trying to sell a car to someone and they say, I don't want to buy this car, you'd say, oh, why not?
[11:06] Or they walk into the dealerships and you say, are you interested in a car? And they say, well, yes. And then you say, what kind of car are you looking for? It's not because you're curious about their feelings. Like you just want them to buy the car. So you want to steer them to the right car. And there's nothing wrong with it, right? But it's not genuine emotional curiosity. You're just asking people what they like or want so that you can guide them to better buy from you, right? Right? So that's kind of important, right? Is it genuine emotional curiosity? Right? Like, well, why don't you want to go? Well, it's, and the reason you avoid this kind of stuff, right? It's like, well, you say, well, why, why, why do you want to stay? Right? Whatever it was, the soft play session, I don't even know what that means. Didn't want to leave. Okay. So the question is, why doesn't your child want to leave? Well, because they're having so much fun there, and they're not going to have as much fun with you. They're not going to have as much fun with you. So that hurts, right? Because then you need to up your game in terms of the child enjoying your company, right? I mean, let's say you're married, right? And it's kind of like the marriage has become kind of routine and boring and you don't really talk about that much and you just kind of go through the motions and do your chores and stuff. And then you go to some dinner party, right? I'm actually somewhat known for throwing some pretty legendary dinner parties over the years.
[12:36] And so you go to a dinner party and both you and your wife just kind of light up, right? You just kind of light up. It's like Diana Ross when they were doing We Are The World or whatever. Like she just didn't want it to leave though it was like four or five in the morning. So you and your wife go out and you're funny and your wife is charming and everybody's got great conversation and you don't want to leave. Why? Because then you get back in the car and you're just kind of staring at each other and you realize kind of everything that's been missing and you just feel a little bit depressed about being back in the car and going home with your wife because you were so much more lit up and having fun at the dinner party.
[13:20] So that's tough, right? That's tough. So why is it that your kid doesn't want to go because there's so much enjoying spending time not with you, and that's really really tough that's really really tough and that yeah so that's tough emotionally right so.
[13:52] That curiosity, why does your kid not want to go with you? Because they're having so much more fun here. Ooh, that's tough, man. And then you have to figure out how you can be more creative and fun and imaginative when you're playing with your kid or you're chatting with your kid and all of that, right? That's tough. That's tough. All right. I don't know, saying don't, no, can't, and bad. I don't know about bad. Bad is not particularly helpful. But the idea that you should not say no to your children, I find a little bit confusing because it's just inauthentic. And kids, I tell you, man, it's wild. Kids are just like x-ray machines of authenticity. They just know when you're faking it. They just know when you're faking it. So if you're like, you're so self-restrained, right? Well, you're upset with your kid, right? And, you know, If I was upset with my daughter, which would happen very rarely, but it would happen, I would be annoyed. I'd say, I'm annoyed, right? I find this annoying, right? I'm not saying you're bad or anything. I'm just saying, I'm annoyed, right? And that's fine. That's fine. And then she can say she's annoyed with me, right? So that's just honest, right? And it's been usually very, very productive and healthy and helpful, right?
[15:16] So yeah i mean um some years ago my daughter when i was having a conversation with her and i think this is a time when the show was on a real roller coaster and she said you know sometimes you can be a bit grouchy and uh i've sort of thought about it and we talked about it and i was like yeah you're right you're absolutely right you're absolutely right and letting too much of the world chaos seep into the family abode she was absolutely right about that and we actually just talked about this the other day, although of course I checked in with her quite a bit to just let go of some of the grouchiness that would happen from time to time. I'm not a particularly grouchy guy, but it would certainly happen from time to time. And she was right. So this, you know, well, I have to do this three-step, right? Three-step, the script, right? Well, you don't want to leave it so tough. You're feeling cross. And the kid's like, well, So now that you understand that, I should be able to stay as opposed to, like, if I wanted the date to go longer, but the girl wanted to leave, the woman wanted to leave, and I'd say, well, you want to leave, that's tough. You're feeling bored or you're not connecting and then say, well, then the date has to continue. That would be like, well, what's the point of understanding my feelings if you're just going to do the opposite, right?
[16:38] I ask your girl out and she says no. And I'm like, okay, you don't want to go out with me. That's tough. You're feeling not positive towards me. And then just say, so when do we meet? Like, let's go out Friday. She'd say, well, no, I mean, you correctly identified my feelings that I don't want to go out with you. So then why are we doing the opposite? That would be weird, right? Right? I mean, if I was in a job interview and they said, we're not going to hire you. And I'm like, you don't want to hire me. That's tough. you're feeling like you don't want me to be your employee so what time do I show up for work on Monday? That would be weird. So saying you don't want to leave is so tough you're feeling cross and then leaving is just weird. It's like, okay, well if you understand my feelings why can't we stay, right? So the script is a falsehood and oh, I can't say don't, no, can't in bed. That's just self-censorship and it's just inauthentic. You're just not genuinely connecting with your emotions and your child. Of course, I want more than anything to be kind and patient with my son. As my late adored mom was with me. What do you mean kind and patient? So that's just, again, it's inauthentic.
[17:46] Inauthentic. It's not kind and patient to be manipulative and to self-censor and to follow some sort of script and you can't say this and lack of genuine emotional connection and authenticity and spontaneity. It's gross. It's an NPC script. Sometimes, though, she says, living with a three-nature. That's funny. Can leave me feeling overwhelmed. Boy, that is like the ultimate, that is the ultimate female word of the 21st century. Overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. I don't know what it means. I think it just means you've been fake for so long that you don't feel real anymore. So since his birth, I've discovered shortcomings I had no idea I had. So when I discovered gentle parenting exponents such as big little feelings, Dr. Becky Kennedy and Janet Lansbury, a woman who embodies serenity on social media. I read everything. Big little feelings. It's gross. I really, really dislike that. All right. Um, much of what I've learned from those particular experts has been useful, particularly the emphasis on trying to calm yourself down first before intervening with your child to avoid adding fuel to their fire.
[18:56] So you don't think your kid can see your struggles. Kids read their parents like you read a book. Kids understand their parents like you understand the two and two make four. So anyway, it's also no surprise to me in the U.S. Most backlash, blah, blah, blah, starting from making us feel exhausted, confused, and ashamed. Is it entirely positive? For an approach designed to be non-authoritative, there are actually many rules to gentle parenting, most of them for the parents rather than the children. And failing to follow them correctly apparently means risking your child's future self-esteem and happiness, saying good boy, girl is frowned on in case you make them dependent on external validation. Boy, talk about a lack of self-knowledge here, right? So she's like, am I being good at gentle parenting? That's external validation, right? She's literally going to all of these people, Oh, this woman is the embodiment of serenity, the Janet Lansbury, and I want to be like her. I want to be like my mom. I want to be like these other people. And then it's like, well, you don't want to be dependent on external validation. It's like, oh my God.
[19:57] Just so you've made me really angry sad, which might trigger toxic codependency. You've made me really angry sad. This is, again, maybe 51, 49. This is a female thing. Man, this is a female thing. Which is something external happens and that makes them angry or sad. You know, like if somebody wires you up to electricity and runs 40,000 volts through your thigh muscle, then they are making you jerk back and they're making you hurt, right?
[20:27] But you've made me really angry, sad. That's not helpful. I am angry and sad. It happened after this, right? I'm not saying because of this, but... So shouting, so it's just not... it's not true that other people control your emotions, right? It's just not true.
[20:43] All right, shouting will lead to depression, a lack of confidence in later life, and possibly also make them a psychopath, right? With stakes this high, losing control and raising your voice once in a while could feel traumatic. But I found it's more likely to happen if I've spent all day engaged in tortuous discussions about feelings, not my own, obviously trying desperately not to say, because I said so, and ignoring my gut instincts, which is that clear instructions peppered with the occasional firm no might whisper it be far more successful. Yeah, so why are you ignoring your gut instincts. So you're lying to your child. You're lying to your child. You're not being honest and direct and authentic and connecting. Anyway, is shouting sometimes really so detrimental? I want my son to know that all humans get upset and angry at times, adults included, and that his actions impact those around him.
[21:28] But why would you have to shout? You could just say that you're upset. You don't have to shout. That's acting it out, right? So she's rejecting her own authentic experience. She's rejecting honesty. She's being tight-lipped, white-faced, red-cheeked and manipulative. And then she wants her child to respect her. It's like, but if she set herself against her own emotional authenticity and directness and honesty, why would the child respect her? I don't get, again, this is a little bit more female. I don't get this just adherence to external rules in order to just do something well. There's a script I have to follow. There's this person I need to emulate, I need to copy paste this and it went, I also doubt that her mother was quite as gentle as she says, otherwise she'd be able to do this more directly. Or maybe her mother was gentle also by faking her own experience and compulsively lying to her child.
[22:25] When you're searching your frazzled brain for the night, gentle parenting form of words with which to respond. What? When you're searching your frazzled brain for the right, sorry, sorry, my mistake. When you're searching your frazzled brain for the right, gentle parenting form of words with which to respond, never react. It's also very easy to get it wrong in laps, into permissive parenting, allowing them to do whatever the hell they want. It's a distressingly short journey from validating a child's feelings to let them cause mayhem in a supermarket, and from trying not to shout, stop that, when your child throws sand at another to standing, impotently watching it happen. The experts say boundaries are vital, but when you're focusing all your energies on not losing your cool, those are what often vanish instead. Right. So if the only way that you can enforce boundaries is through yelling and physical force, like picking up your child and carrying them, then you're really torn. Like you have to give your children some structure and boundaries. Children are happier when they know what's expected of them. So if you have to give your children boundaries, but the only way you can think of giving boundaries is to stop this weird psycho babble of inauthenticity and to yell and use physical force, that's no fun. I mean, that's really stressful. That's really difficult. How about just be honest, tell the truth? All right. And while nobody wants their child to grow up believing their feelings don't matter, I'm also unsure that a toddler's every emotional experience needs to be indulged. Yeah, I don't know what that means. I don't always have it in me to muster empathy for the distress caused by an incorrectly cut piece of cheese.
[23:53] More seriously, I worry that the constant focus on emotions will raise a self-obsessed, entitled generation who see their feelings more important than anything else, as more important than anything else, including objective truth, or different, perhaps equally valid viewpoints. Right. The objective truth is you're bothered by your son, and you're not telling him that, and you're also not saying, why does it hurt me that my child wants to stay here rather than go somewhere else with me? Which it probably does, right? Objective truth. How's the child going to get objective truth if you're lying to him by following a script that's inauthentic to how you're feeling and what is actually going on for you, right? Recently I've been trying to listen to my gut more which tells me to try to emulate my own mom who is kind, yes, and gentle to but also firm, sometimes even strict I know what she'd say if she could see all the gentle parenting social media posts the parenting can't be taught via 30 second videos there's no such thing as a script that every child will respond to, I think she'd also greet the idea of someone using a detailed narration of their recalcitrant and toddler's feelings to cajole them into leaving a soft play session with amused incredulity increasingly I feel the same, sometimes you just need to get home even if it takes a fireman's lift to achieve it.
[25:07] Yeah. Children are just at their happiest when they're relaxed and connected to the true emotional state of their parents. When their parents know, when the children know that their parents absolutely love spending time with them, right? My daughter wanted to go for a walk today. I know she likes going for a walk and listening to music. And I was like, I'd love to come along. But I totally understand if you want to go and walk and listen to music. And we had a nice hour walk. And we talked about just a lovely variety of topics and all of that. And so when kids are just connected and happy and they know that their parents love spending time with them and the parents are not faking things or being inauthentic and so on, then the kids are happy. I don't know this woman, but she does look like the kind of woman who is looking for a kind of social approval that is really tough and wanting to be right and do things the right way rather than just be authentic, honest, and genuine. Maybe that comes a little bit more from the father's side. Of course, she doesn't say anything about Polly Dunbar. What's her story?
[26:19] She doesn't say anything about whether she has a husband. She doesn't say anything about the child's father, and maybe that's an issue. Children's illustrator and writer. Okay, and let's see here. Cotswolds? Are you in Cotswolds? Are you in Cotswolds? Oh, wow, my. All right, career adaptations, bibliography as an illustrator. All right. Most promising new illustrator. Most promising new illustrator. Okay, sorry. Okay, what has she got here? She's the daughter of children's books writer. oh isn't that nice right oh most helpful uh okay so let's see here, Published three books. Oh, her partner and their two sons. Okay, I don't know if partner means male or female, of course. Who knows? Let's look a little further.
[27:28] Polly Dumbar. All right, what's the story? Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. And two very fluffy cats. Is there anything about, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what partner means here. But anyway, so yeah, I don't know if there's a dad, but if there's a strong dad around, there's usually just this kind of directness that is very positive and helpful, I think. And again, she could be perfectly wonderful at this. Maybe she's got the manliest man around, but I don't know. So yeah, helping women to be more authentic is a man's job, and helping men be more connected is a woman's job. It's all great stuff, so. All right. Well, thanks, everyone. Hope you find this helpful. I'm going to go and do my Wednesday night show. It is November the 13th, 2024. And I'll talk to you guys in a few minutes. Bye.
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