0:03 - New Year's Philosophy
0:57 - Trusting Yourself
6:08 - Work and Family Dynamics
16:34 - Parental Influence
31:46 - Regrets and Reflections
35:36 - Establishing Boundaries
1:22:40 - The Nature of Respect
In this episode, we explore the philosophical concept of self-trust and its relationship to obligation and desire. As the host, I engage with a caller who grapples with the fundamental question of whether trusting oneself means relinquishing obligations and waiting for genuine desire. Our conversation highlights the complexities of navigating personal desires alongside the expectations imposed by society and family.
The caller shares a poignant narrative about his experiences working for his father, shedding light on the emotional struggles tied to familial obligations and career choices. Through introspection, he recognizes the anxieties stemming from his upbringing, including feelings of being forced into difficult situations without the autonomy to make choices. I challenge the caller to think critically about the nuances of his past decisions, emphasizing the importance of personal agency and the drive to pursue desires rather than succumbing to mere obligation.
As we delve deeper, we touch on themes of discipline and hedonism, dissecting the idea that self-discipline is not at odds with pleasure but rather an investment in future happiness. I encourage the caller to reflect on past regrets and acknowledge that, despite the challenges faced, choices ultimately stem from individual agency. The conversation serves as a reminder that while external pressures may exist, individuals possess the power to take control of their lives and make decisions that align with their true selves.
We also discuss the societal standards of respect and the dynamics of interpersonal relationships. I argue that cultivating respect requires an understanding that people’s treatment of others often reflects their self-perception. Through practical examples, I illustrate the necessity of applying both positive and negative stimuli in interactions, as this approach often yields better outcomes than excessive patience or blind trust.
Overall, this episode serves as an exploration of the intricacies of self-trust, obligation, and the drive for personal fulfillment. It challenges listeners to reevaluate their relationship with desire and obligation, urging them to overcome barriers imposed by past experiences in order to forge a path towards a more authentic existence.
[0:00] Yes, and I really do appreciate you guys dropping by on this New Year's.
[0:03] I hope you had a great Christmas, and I hope you had a great New Year's. And I am sure that we are going to do some absolutely fantastic stuff this year in the realm of philosophy, because it is year 20. Year 20! That's right. This show is almost old enough to drink in just about every American state. It's almost, almost old enough to drink. And that is really, really something and a half. So I'm very pleased and excited about that. All right. So we are happy to take questions and comments. You can raise your hand and unmute. Yes. Vida, I have unmuted you. If you want to unmute yourself, you can be the first caller in the 20th year of FreeDomain.
[0:58] A question that was asked on another stream another live stream I have the question I didn't ask this I just heard it I wasn't actually there for the live stream either but it was does trusting yourself involve giving up doing things out of obligation and waiting for desire and what does trusting oneself and one's instincts entail and that's the podcast number and the name is, 5766 the CEO shooter and the time step of that question is one hour, five minutes, and 34 seconds.
[1:29] Right. And what's the question?
[1:34] The question again is, does trusting yourself involve giving up doing things out of obligation and waiting for desire? And what does trusting oneself...
[1:45] Sorry, is the beginning mistrusting yourself or distrusting yourself or something else? I didn't quite get the beginning of that sentence.
[1:53] The beginning of the sentence is trust is uh distrusting yourself right.
[1:58] So distrusting yourself is waiting to feel pleasure rather than following obligation is that right.
[2:08] Uh it how uh how he puts it is um uh is sorry how he doing things was it.
[2:15] Not my sorry hang on sorry how he puts it was it not my my show was it are these my words.
[2:19] No no this is um Someone commented on this on one of your live streams that you do.
[2:25] Okay, got it. Sorry.
[2:28] Yeah, and so the way the person puts it is doing things out of obligation and waiting for desire.
[2:36] I'm still not sure what your question is. Could you state it as a philosophical question?
[2:42] Well, I'll put it this way. I'm trying to understand how to trust myself. And I'm having the same issue with this guy where I'm kind of stuck between obligation and desire. as well as I just don't really know. I'm not really, I'm very bad at navigating between obligation and desire. I'm like caught in between.
[3:13] Okay, give me, sorry, can you, yeah, that's great. I appreciate that. Thank you. Can you give me a concrete, specific example to make sure I'm aiming my answer in the right direction? In your life.
[3:28] In your life i can't i can't think like i can't think of one in particular i just i can think of like how the experience feels like um i guess like actually no i have an experience like well if you're struggling with.
[3:40] It it's got to show up in your life somewhere right so what you got.
[3:43] Well it shows up in.
[3:45] All of our lives every every single one of us has this challenge so what's yours.
[3:48] Well um like preparing for this uh uh this question and speaking to you like, For me, my heart's pumping, but in the manner that I'm shaking. I understand there is supposed to be some anxiety, but to me, it just feels disproportional. You're asking me these questions and my mind is going blank. So that would be an example. I think that's a good example.
[4:19] Okay, so obligation and desire, how is that showing up? Because what you're sounding sounds like, you know, mild anxiety or nervousness or whatever it is, which is fine. I mean, you're in a new situation, right? So I've been doing this kind of philosophical stuff for like over 40 years, and you are doing this for the first time, right? So of course, you're going to be more nervous, right? That makes total sense. but how does this the desire is what and the obligation is what like what is the what is the conflict here.
[4:51] Um let's see i'm still thinking.
[5:00] Do you have an issue in your life like making money or maybe eating well or going to the gym or something where you know that there's an obligation that you could have relative to health or wealth, but you just don't want to do it or you wait for the desire to kick in or something like that?
[5:21] For example, I've been out of work and I've been using my savings. And so getting another job has been very difficult for me.
[5:32] And why do you think getting another job has been difficult?
[5:36] Well, my other job beforehand, I was working for my father. So it was something that was just given to me. I didn't really want it, but that's a story for another time. So I haven't really been in the real world. I've just been stuck in my father's orbit. And that's partly why it's difficult.
[5:54] And how old are you?
[5:57] I'm 29.
[5:59] And how long did you work for your father?
[6:08] I'm sorry i think you cut out there sure.
[6:11] How long did you work for your father for.
[6:15] Uh i started when i was 18 and it ended uh when i was 20 let's say 28 so for almost 11 years okay or nine years and.
[6:28] Why did you stop working for your father.
[6:34] Um i didn't i stopped because uh it was a um it was a bad uh um, it was a bad, well my dad took advantage of me and it was uh I didn't like the work. It was a very bad work environment. People were passive-aggressive towards each other and worse with me because my father was the owner. So all the things they wanted to say to my father, they would just say to me or be passive-aggressive towards me. That's just to name a few bad things.
[7:22] Okay. And how long have you been listening to what I do?
[7:26] Many years.
[7:28] Okay. And when did you first begin to suspect that it was not a productive or positive thing to be working for your father?
[7:39] Uh um from the beginning or no sorry sorry go ahead yeah i'm sorry um um i never wanted to uh to work for my father but um i i got forced into it i and uh when i realized it was a really bad hang on hang.
[8:02] On hang on hang on hang on okay so this is a narrative and the new year is going to be no narratives. So when you say to me, I never wanted to work for my father, that's impossible, unless you were kidnapped and sent down to the salt mines. No, no, let me talk. So unless you were kidnapped and sent down to the salt mines of Aldebaran, there has to be a part of you that wanted to work for your father. So if I say, I never wanted to see my mother, then the question is, well, given that I wasn't forced at gunpoint to, why did I see my mother? So there was a part of me that did want to see my mother, and that there was a part of me that didn't. So if you say, I never wanted to work for my father, well, it's pretty easy to not work for your father. You just don't work for your father. Again, unless he's some Saudi prince who's got you locked in a salt mine in Kessel or something. So if you say... Well, I have a practical reason. I'm sorry?
[8:55] I have a practical reason. And that was, I didn't have a high school diploma at the time because I dropped out. And my father said, you either work for me, I'll kick you out. And it was a whole family um um like it was very tense my grandmother who lived in the same house as i did and she rented her room she told me out of kindness you can stay in my room you don't have to you know you don't have to worry so i you're right that's not by gunpoint absolutely but i think that encompassed the definition of being forced into something hang.
[9:25] On hang on so what you're saying is that your choices were limited because you dropped out of high school.
[9:31] Um yes maybe that isn't being forced and then you would be right did you.
[9:36] Choose to drop out of high school.
[9:40] Um, I mean, fundamentally, yes, but at the time it didn't, it, if I was getting like very depressed and major, having major anxiety and I was just skipping out of school and I was a good student beforehand. And so eventually I just, um, I just stopped going and I was over 18. And so, even though the school could threaten me, I was an adult, so I could, I could, um, I wasn't obligated anymore to go to school. And so with some assistance from my mother, I didn't finish school.
[10:17] Sorry, there's a lot in there I'm trying to unpack here. So when you said I was a good student before, before what?
[10:26] I would say before my senior year. My senior year, a lot of things happened.
[10:32] I'm sorry about not knowing the lingo. So senior year, does that mean grade 12?
[10:38] Yes. I'm from the United States. I would be grade 12 the last year of high school.
[10:43] Okay. So for some portion of the last year of high school, you were unhappy. You said depressed, anxious. Is that right?
[10:50] Yes.
[10:51] And before that, you were a good student.
[10:56] It was a lot of things. Actually, now that we're talking about it, I haven't thought about it in a long time. Well, at the time, I was a really good athlete. I was a top cross-country athlete.
[11:17] Hey, I did cross-country in high school, too. That is a muddy, dirty, ugly business, man. I'll tell you, I don't have to tell you because I know.
[11:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[11:26] Um i did i did a i did a run uh in i think it was grade 12 uh the mud was so bad that half the kids couldn't complete the race they just had to go back and look look for their shoes in the mud it was uh it was quite something but anyway go on.
[11:41] Um yeah i just i had a similar experience not personally with myself but with one of my teammates where he lost his shoe and he didn't go back he just kept going.
[11:50] He didn't go back nice that's commitment oh.
[11:53] No you don't go back yeah especially if you're uh you're vying for the top spot it's like you just you you work with it you just manage.
[12:00] Yeah yeah um okay so you're a good athlete good student and what happened.
[12:07] Yeah so um that's kind of would you ask me some questions i know that sounds strange is it's.
[12:16] Well okay so let me ask you this in grade uh you know grades two through, 11 you were a good student you know at some point you were a good athlete so you were healthy you were active you're out there getting the good sun and the the cardio and legs are pumping arms are flying and all kinds of good stuff right and so right at some point you moved into a position or a situation of anxiety uh and work avoidance is that right.
[12:49] Uh, yes.
[12:51] Okay. So was that a quick transition or a slow transition? In other words, did you just wake up one day saying, man, I hate this freaking place. I'll chew my own arm off like a wolf at a trap to get out. Or did you just wake up a little less motivated each day?
[13:08] The second, I, um, um, over, I would, I would say over a six month period, starting at the beginning of summer till the end of the year it was just gradually uh i started feeling worse, i um i didn't even consider it being depressed at the time but now that i look back on i was feeling more and more depressed and uh um yeah my anxiety was uh was unbearable like i never skipped school and i remember uh at the end of that year uh of the uh the year itself not the school year um i i remember facing this like daunting anxiety where i'm like i don't want to go to school anymore um right okay and my grades were so bad that i sorry go ahead oh sorry i just wouldn't say my grades later on a couple months later my grades were so bad that i got kicked out of track and field which is with my school you both do cross country and track and field and that just made things worse.
[14:09] Okay and this so the beginning of the year is September right and then the end of the year is June.
[14:19] Yes June okay.
[14:21] So September you're okay when does it start to kick in that things are bad, December so December so then December through the end of winter early spring and then through to early summer, you're just getting worse and worse. And what month was it roughly when you dropped out?
[14:44] So I was kicked out. I wasn't dropped out because my grades were really bad. They kicked me out.
[14:49] Okay, so that's fine. Sorry, I got that wrong. What month was it roughly that you were kicked out?
[14:58] Sorry, Stef, you cut out there. At least I think it's on my end.
[15:01] Sorry, I thought you had dropped. We got two things going on here. One is that you were kicked out of track and field or cross-country running. And the other is you dropped out of school. So which one are we talking about? Kicked out or dropped out?
[15:15] Oh i was sorry i was just mentioning about my internet connection uh just a moment ago and i'm trying to fix it so sorry.
[15:23] All right yeah let me know when you can hear me, all right well i'm just going to talk then because i think actually do have enough information to lead this person and he's got his internet issues and uh, yeah well uh so yeah we have our internet issues uh maybe on both sides i'm not sure but it's not so much towards the end of high school let's just say obviously this is the more concrete example it's not so much that you're anxious about high school it's that you're anxious about the end of high school. I mean, if you are a pilot, and you're trying to take off, and you're not sure you have enough runway, you're not anxious about the runway, you're anxious about the end of the runway. Now, if your parents have not prepared you for the world as a whole, if they have, in fact, interfered with your development of the world as a whole.
[16:34] I'm back. I don't want to interrupt.
[16:36] No, that's fine. So, if your parents have not prepared you for adulthood, then the end of high school is going to be absolutely horrible. Because it's like, if you haven't studied for a test, and the test is incredibly important, then the test is incredibly stressful. In fact, it is the anticipation of the stress of being unprepared for a test that is a major reason as to why we prepare for tests, why we SWAT or study, or matriculate or however you want to phrase it, right?
[17:09] That totally applies to my situation.
[17:11] Yeah, and now, so it's one thing if you're unprepared for the test. In other words, if your parents have just kind of resolutely ignored or neglected you, that's one thing. If, on the other hand, your parents have actively sabotaged your capacity to have a functional adulthood, that's even worse. Now, you're not just unprepared for the test, but people have beaten you up while you tried to study, and now you're averse to the whole thing, and you just feel like wretched and vomitous when it comes to approaching the test. In other words, you're not just unprepared, you've been brutalized into being averse to the test. And so the amount of parental sabotage that goes on when parents have dysfunctional marriages in particular dysfunctional relationships uh where do you have siblings uh.
[18:05] I have half siblings.
[18:08] Half siblings and where are you in the birth order i assume older i'm the oldest you're the oldest okay right so uh what kind of age gap is there between you and your half siblings.
[18:22] Uh, the first one is six years and the other two are, um, I think, uh, 17 and 19, something like that.
[18:32] 17 and 19 years?
[18:35] Yes. One, I remember the, um, my, my mother had, uh, the, the child that was six years and then my, um, uh, and then my father had the two others, which are the 17, 19 year, 17, 19 year difference.
[18:51] Wow. Okay. Got it. So you're the only, you only have half-siblings, right?
[18:58] I only have half-siblings.
[19:00] Okay, got it. So, yeah, if the parents are dysfunctional, they will often cripple the children so that the children don't go off and leave them behind. If your father is really difficult to work with, he would certainly have an incentive to cripple your development from a social and economic and romantic standpoint, so that you'll be stuck working with him, so to speak. He gets free labor, or cheap labor, or at least reliable labor, by kind of sabotaging you. So what did your parents do when you began to get really anxious about high school?
[19:39] Um my father um he ignored me and i remember in december um of that uh of that year when it um that was that was that point that i was talking about um where uh things uh where i started missing school and such i i i went to him to talk about what was going on and i remember because he uh like i said he owns his own business it's a restaurant and he would just spend all the time he could, talking to his customers while I was waiting for him outside of the restaurant. I just remember sitting there for hours for an hour at times and I went to him like multiple times to say well to have someone to talk to, Oh, and my mother, she had moved out of state, and so I didn't speak to her too much until when I wanted to leave school. That was kind of more when we started talking again.
[20:43] Right, okay. So, your parents weren't helpful in your school anxiety, right?
[20:51] Uh they weren't helpful with that and i would say they were at least they thought this way they were never helpful with pretty much anything throughout my childhood okay.
[21:00] What about uh guides counselors or anybody else school nurse or anyone else who you might be have been able to talk to about.
[21:08] I had a your.
[21:09] Anxiety go ahead.
[21:11] I uh sorry um i had a um i had a coach my cross country and track coach i could talk to him a little bit but uh in general i was very closed off at that time very suspicious and i was really bad at even communicating at the time like worse than i am now and so, like talking having conversations with with other people especially if i was not too familiar with them was like, I would say it was almost impossible.
[21:49] Almost impossible is an oxymoron. It's a contradiction. It doesn't exist. If something's impossible, it's impossible. If it's almost impossible, it's possible, right? So almost impossible is a way of saying, well, I can't claim I had no free will, but I'm going to pretend I had no free will.
[22:09] Yeah my bad and i would say um.
[22:12] It was i would.
[22:13] Say it was like i yeah i would say it was it was very very difficult like it was.
[22:20] Yeah i get it i get it i get it so it was very hard and listen i obviously want to say how much i sympathize with your situation as a as a teenager i really sympathize and i'm sorry i'm really obviously hugely sorry and feel very sympathetic that you didn't get any good coaching or feedback. I mean, my daughter is, she just recently turned 16 last month. And of course, you know, we've talked a lot about life and moving forward, and she's, you know, getting close to adulthood and all that kind of stuff. So she needs, you know, that kind of feedback, which is a different kind of thing than goes on when you're younger, instead of preparing your kids for adulthood. And it's a big job, and it's a fun job, but it's very important. And I'm sorry that you didn't get that for sure. And of course, what happened to you as a child is not your responsibility, but we're talking cusp of adulthood stuff. Now, you said that you were past 18. Did you lose a year? Or I'm sorry if I don't know, but when I was a kid, there was still grade 13. And I worked night and day to get out of school as early as I could. So I'm not sure, did you lose a grade or was there some reason you were in high school into adulthood.
[23:32] Uh no for uh at least here in california in the united states uh people tend to finish high school um either uh at 18 where um like the last few months of high of the of the high school i turned 18 at the beginning i um it's not too uncommon but uh i i feel like it was kind of lucky in that way but it's uh okay so you.
[23:57] Didn't lose a year just it was the accident of birthdays or whatever it is that had you graduating as an adult.
[24:04] Exactly.
[24:04] Okay. So you did not get help from anybody. You couldn't get it from your parents and you didn't really get it from your coach and you didn't talk to anyone else. Is that right?
[24:19] Yeah.
[24:19] Okay. And again, I understand it was really hard. So then you didn't graduate and your father said, come work for me or I'm kicking you out, right?
[24:32] That's correct the way I was able to leave is my mom like I mentioned before she lived out of state so she bought me a ticket and then told the school that I'm transferring to a school nearby her and so they stopped threatening me with, having the police come and take me to school every day.
[24:55] Now that wasn't true is that right?
[24:58] Um well they certainly made that threat i um.
[25:01] No no sorry it wasn't true i'm sure it's true that they made that threat but it wasn't true that your mother was transferring you to another school.
[25:11] Uh she filed the paperwork but i suppose it wasn't true i um.
[25:17] You suppose it wasn't true did you go to another school.
[25:21] No i didn't go to another school when i arrived um.
[25:27] Okay, so your mother lied for you to have you escape consequences, right?
[25:33] Yes.
[25:35] That's not very manly. And I say this as the son of a single mother who's gone through my whole share of emasculating things, but have mommy lie to the school so you don't have to finish high school is not the most noble thing. I mean, obviously, in hindsight, it wasn't very good for you, right?
[25:59] Um yeah i mean i wasn't gonna graduate anyways i had i had uh failed the first semester and and failed the second semester and they were like oh you're gonna stay for summer school and i was just like no i'm not and um i i could have just said hey i'm 18 i'm signing myself out of high school but my mom i concocted this plan and i was just like it i'm just gonna do that like I needed to get out. I couldn't go back. I did go to the meeting that dictated the end of my high school career, which that was terrifying. Sorry, I don't disagree with you.
[26:40] Sorry, what was terrifying?
[26:43] Oh, I had a meeting with the assistant principal as well as all my teachers and my coach as well was there to talk about how I'm failing high school that I intend to leave. At least, I don't know what the normal thing is, but that's what happened to me.
[27:01] Okay, got it. And you were failing because you just weren't showing up to classes and you weren't doing the work, right?
[27:08] Exactly.
[27:09] Okay. So you had a choice, and this is where discipline comes in. So discipline is not anti-hedonism, it's just hedonism in a longer time frame. So, for instance, I want to be strong and healthy when I get old. I've seen, and most people have seen at some point in their life, they have seen the sickly, ghoul-like, cryptkeeper old people tottering around, or the giant-ass people wheeling around in their little battle tanks in Walmart or stuff like that, right? Now, that could be both simultaneously sucks chunks and blows lard, and I just don't want to live like that. So I'm hedonistic in that I want to have, as much as I'm able to, a sort of strong, robust, and healthy old age. Now, I'm not way off from 60, and I can still sprint, I can still work out, I can still play tennis, and I can hike all day. Like, I'm doing all right, I'm doing all right. Now, that's just hedonism in a longer time frame.
[28:17] So when it comes to discipline people think that hedonism or pleasure and discipline are opposites no, not at all there's an old saying among the ladies who lunch the rich wealthy socialites they say nothing, tastes as good as thin feels, or they say you know once on the lips forever on the hips when it comes to a dessert. You get to taste it once, but then it stays on your ass forever, right? So discipline in a rational context is just hedonism pushed out into the future. And you can go too far with that. So hedonism is when you take your pleasures now at the expense of pleasures later, and discipline is when you get pleasures later at the expense of pleasures now.
[29:18] Got it. Thank you.
[29:19] That's all it is. So they're both pleasure-based mindsets. Hedonism is I'll take my pleasure now, right? And discipline is I'll take my pleasures later.
[29:34] Right so it's not now that there's some people who get they defer their pleasures too long, right in other words they they die with 10 million dollars in the bank and never having done anything cool or bought anything cool or gone on any vacation or anything like that does that make sense yeah so that to me is extending your discipline a little too far you can have too much discipline and this can result in an eating disorder where you have anorexia nervosa or something like that where you know like it's just kind of out of whack right so you can have too little discipline you can have too much discipline it's an aristotelian mean you can, defer gratification all the time forever and ever and that's called being an ascetic it's like like a monk who's like well i'll i'll beat myself with ropes and starve myself but i'll get the kingdom of heaven later. Well, I guess just another kind of theological hedonism, right?
[30:30] So discipline is not anti-pleasure. At least rational discipline is not at all anti-pleasure. Discipline is, I want a lot of pleasure. I want pleasure. Like for me, the time I spend exercising, which I don't particularly enjoy. I'm not like some, I guess some guys like moving heavy metal in a dark room. I'm not that guy. So I don't really enjoy exercise, but I enjoy the effects of exercise more than I dislike exercising.
[31:08] So when it comes to seeking pleasure, discipline is about seeking pleasure. It's just in a different time frame than what you might be used to, if that makes sense. Now, the question then is, what was happening in your life where you're kind of looking back over 10 years, And I think, if I understand this correctly, you're sort of looking back over 10 years and you're saying, I wish I had made different decisions. Is that right?
[31:47] Would you repeat that again? I'm sorry.
[31:49] When you look back over the last 10 years, do you wish you had made different decisions?
[31:57] In the beginning I would say in the beginning since I found your show let's say the last past five years, I'm not too dissatisfied but the first from 18 to 24 I have many regrets and I slowly have less regrets after 24 to present.
[32:25] Okay that's that's great to hear all right so let's just do a quick inventory then right so uh do you have uh some reasonable measure of financial stability and security.
[32:39] Uh not yet.
[32:41] Okay uh do you have a sustained romantic relationship.
[32:49] I have one And I haven't had one since.
[32:53] Well no then you don't have one now right.
[32:56] I don't have one now That's correct.
[32:58] Okay what is the longest romantic relationship That you've had.
[33:05] I believe Two years and a half.
[33:08] And when did that end.
[33:12] When I was 23 It could have been 22 but let's say 23.
[33:18] Okay so that's a long ass time ago right yes so you've been single for over half a decade, right okay you don't have a meaningful career or a job right that's correct okay what about a circle of good friends who can help encourage you to excellence.
[33:37] I don't have any good friends.
[33:40] Okay so you've got no financial stability you've got no girlfriend or prospect thereof no wife no kids no good friendships right no savings so things aren't going particularly well right no.
[33:59] Things are growing very badly.
[34:00] Okay so how can you have fewer regrets when things are going worse.
[34:07] Um, well, because, um, because I'm aware of these things, like beforehand, it was just this ball of emotions. And, and I was, I had resigned myself, I just thought I was screwed. And I believed in family obligations. And thanks to I don't. And so I was, I was in a very dark place. In my mid-twenties. And then having learned a lot of the philosophical points you've made about, you know, I don't have to be joined to the hip by my family of origin. It helped me to slowly... Oh, it helped me... It gave me that necessary relief to keep going.
[34:48] Okay. And what is the status of your relationship with your family of origin at the moment?
[34:53] Um well i'm still i'm still living with uh with some of them but at least with my father which i spent the most time in my 20s with i'm i'm away from him now and that was a very uh important step for me.
[35:07] All right and i'm sorry to hear that this distance between you and your father but it sounds like a some a decision i can completely understand so who were you living with.
[35:16] Uh my grandmother from my mother.
[35:20] And this is on your mother's side okay got it got it, okay and so what uh is the what is the issue or the question that i can most help you with at the moment.
[35:37] I mean, now that we've done an inventory, I see why I have this like under, what do they call it? I see why I have this, I have this anxiety, this like persistent anxiety. But I'm not really sure what to ask.
[36:01] Okay, let me ask you this. do you view your father as a hard-working man.
[36:05] Um i do.
[36:08] Okay do you view him as a i don't mean self-disciplined but in terms of his business work do you view him as disciplined does he work hard even when he doesn't particularly want to.
[36:23] Uh yes he well no that's kind of difficult because he's he's more of a workaholic and so i'm more.
[36:32] Efficient but that's being disciplined in a way right i mean he's still working hard right so so here's one of the challenges that may be occurring for you and if it doesn't we can drop it but one of the challenges that may be occurring to you, is it's the ceding of virtue to enemy territory it's a ceding of essential territory, to the enemy, right, so to speak. So if your father is disciplined and hardworking and you don't like your father, what they used to call throwing the baby out with the bathwater, oh, the bathwater's dirty, we're going to throw it out, and the baby's in it, so we'll throw the baby out too. No, you throw out the bathwater and you keep the baby, right? You flush your poop, but you don't flush the toilet away as well, right? Right. So if you look at your father, right, and you say, oh, man, so that's what a hardworking, disciplined guy looks like. So hardworking discipline makes you an asshole.
[37:38] Right? Like if your father was some drill instructor, right? You'd be like, damn, getting up early and exercising makes you into an asshole.
[37:49] So then what you say is, well, I don't want to be an asshole, so I better not work hard and be disciplined because look what that does to you. I'll give you an example from my own life. So my mother is very creative. I inherited some of my rational faculties from my father and some of my creative faculties from my mother. My mother is very creative. Now, my mother also is violent and crazed. Now, if I were to say, man, look what creativity does to you, man. It makes you unhinged and aggressive. Well, what would happen? Well, I would not want to express any creativity because it would be like the mark of the beast or something like that. Right and my father was rational but cold and if i were to say oh my gosh well if you're rational you just become like spark you become really awkward and i don't know half autistic and weird and you can't connect with people and and so on right you kind of disappear up your own ass, then i would say well i i can't be overly rational because that makes you cold and weird like like Dr. Spock or Mr. Spock from Star Trek, right? So if I were to look at my mother and say, well, she owns the definition of creativity, I look up the word creativity and there's my mother. If I were to look up the word rationality, there's my father. Well, I don't want to be like my mother and I don't want to be like my father.
[39:17] But if they own the definitions of reason and creativity, I'm screwed. Because i've given them the definitions so i can't be those things because i don't want to be like them does that make sense it does so discipline hard work and so on if you associate the toxic elements or your father's personality as being bound up in these traits then you are going to veer away from these traits and your life will not succeed. Because in order to succeed in life, guess what? You need to be disciplined and hardworking. There's nobody who succeeds who's not disciplined and hardworking.
[40:06] Well, also, it sounds like to me that now that you mentioned that, I did throw out the baby with the bathwater in particular with what is a job? How is it supposed to be? What's the work environment? What are the responsibilities? Because I was given a lot of responsibilities and no authority to do anything. So, you know, I would be treated very poorly by some of my father's workers. And I had no authority to be like, you know, if you talk to me like, again, I'm going to speak to my father and I'm going to have you fired. My father had kept all these workers for decades and decades in which he, well, often in situations, he would side with a worker and say with me, even if I was treated badly and he would get annoyed with me. Oh, you're just causing trouble. And it's like, it was one of the situations where I was doing the right thing or I was looking out for my own interests, like with tips, for example, because I worked at a restaurant. And I was being my dad would be very harsh with me about that no no stop rocking the boat just I'll compensate you give them all the tips and it's like no like I earned these two and that old deal doesn't matter anymore I'm not a kid anymore I deserve this now and I've earned it and I want it and so I think with me my dad owned the definition of what is a work environment I'm not sure if that is compatible with what you're saying but That in particular, you know, that sparked a thought in my mind.
[41:31] Okay, so people treated you badly in the restaurant, right?
[41:33] Yes.
[41:36] And your solution was to run to dead?
[41:39] No.
[41:41] Ah, that's what you said, though. Hang on, hang on. Don't gaslight me, bro. That's what you said. You said people would treat me badly, and I had no authority over them, and I couldn't go to my father and say, I'm going to get you fired or something like that, right?
[41:58] Well, that wasn't an option at all. I didn't have that.
[42:03] No, but it shouldn't be an option. Running to daddy to deal with co-workers is like running to mommy to deal with the school board.
[42:13] Well, at least maybe I didn't mean it in that manner. I meant it as in like, my father would rather fire me than fire them, even if they were in the wrong.
[42:25] It's not your father's job. to make people treat you well.
[42:30] No i'm not talking about treating well i'm saying they were abusive towards me they would.
[42:35] Okay it's not your father's job to prevent people from abusing you not when you become an adult i'm.
[42:41] Talking about as a manager of his restaurant and employees one.
[42:46] Employee harassing the other employee listen bro i worked in restaurants for many years i did too okay so So if you want to tell me that the only way you can get treated with respect is to have your father threatened to people to get fired, you're kind of doomed.
[43:03] No, I didn't expect that.
[43:05] Because daddy ain't going to be around. Daddy is not going to be around. I didn't think- I do that for you your whole life. You have to, listen, do you want to keep talking while I'm talking? You want to try that?
[43:12] I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
[43:14] Okay. Let me finish. Right? Let me finish. Then I could be wrong, but let me finish. It's really kind of annoying to try and talk with people talking in your ear. All right. Is it your father's job to make sure for the rest of your life that you're treated with respect?
[43:28] No.
[43:29] Whose job is it to ensure that you're treated with respect?
[43:33] It's my own job.
[43:35] It is your own job. It is your own job. The fact that you want to run to daddy to deal with aggressive or abusive co-workers is probably one of the reasons why you were treated with disrespect. And I'm not blaming you. I'm just saying that that's the causality. I mean, there are lots of people in this world who are treated with respect even when they don't have direct authority. Is that a fair statement?
[44:04] Yes, that is a fair statement.
[44:06] I mean, I don't have any authority over listeners. I hope that I treat them, we treat each other with mutual respect. I don't have any authority over my wife. I don't have any direct authority over my daughter. or my friends, right? But we treat each other with respect, right? Does that make sense?
[44:25] Yeah, that does make sense.
[44:26] Okay. So the challenge is... And I understand why, because when you were a kid, it was your father's job to make sure you were treated with respect and to treat you with respect. But if your father treats you like shit, there's no way your co-workers are going to treat you well.
[44:42] Well, these co-workers I grew up with, like I would frequent the restaurant when I was a kid. I grew up with most of them and they treated me badly. I mean, my father's assistant and manager, I was terrified of them. I thought, even once he tried to assault me.
[44:56] Sorry, I don't feel like we're having a conversation. Did you hear what I said?
[44:59] I think you cut out. i'm sorry and i'm being honest i think you cut out and that's why i didn't hear it.
[45:03] Okay but if you didn't hear it then tell me okay so if your father treats you like crap it's very likely your co-workers will treat you like crap.
[45:12] Yeah that's correct.
[45:14] Because if your father is an abuser let's say if your father is abusive then healthy people will not want to work with him, that's correct so he's not going to have healthy people around he's an abuser he's going to hire abusers and abusers are going to prey upon you, yeah so your father would not have as an abuser himself and somebody who abused you your father would not have interfered with other people abusing you it's inevitable, that he would fail to protect you and in fact put you in a situation of abuse. Does that make sense?
[45:57] It does. And that's what happened.
[45:59] It is your job to make sure that you are treated with respect.
[46:06] Yeah.
[46:08] And I say this because you're going to go and try and get a new job, right?
[46:12] Yes.
[46:13] Okay, and it is not anybody else's job to treat you with respect. It is your job to do your best to make sure you're treated with respect. Now, there are some people who are going to be assholes no matter what, and you just avoid those people. There are some people who are going to treat you well because of their own inner integrity, and you don't have to worry about those people. It's like in business, there are some people who are going to cheat you no matter what. There are some people who are going to be honorable no matter what. It's the people in the, Because virtue will simply tell you to avoid the people who just are assholes, and virtue will tell you you don't really need to focus your attention on honorable people, right? I don't wake up every morning saying, gee, I hope my wife doesn't divorce me and cheat on me and steal the silverware, right?
[47:08] Yeah.
[47:11] So virtue is for the people in the middle. Virtue is for the people who if encouraged will do the right thing but don't have their own absolute internal integrity.
[47:25] Yeah they go.
[47:27] Where the wind flows and that's that's most of the people most of the people in the world it's a bell curve right most of the people are in the middle, and they will sadly i wish it wasn't this this way and i'm certainly working my ass off to try and make it not this way, but most people will follow your cues. Most people will not say, I should treat this person with respect because he's a fellow human being who's had his own trials and tribulations, and I would want to be treated that way, and blah, blah. Most people don't do that. And most people aren't just automatic assholes, right?
[48:03] Right.
[48:04] Most people will judge you how they don't have any internal moral standard and they're not complete sociopaths most people will judge you how on your own on your own standards yeah by how you judge yourself exactly most people would judge you by how you judge yourself, And most people respond to positive and negative stimuli, not to their conscience or their morality.
[48:37] I see.
[48:39] So you have to be willing to apply positive rewards and negative stimuli in order to be treated with respect by most people.
[48:55] Right.
[48:56] Now because your father applied negative stimuli you probably associate that with being an asshole but it's not.
[49:02] Yeah that's right.
[49:04] So for instance yeah so for instance a good manager like elon musk obviously is a great manager and he says look we don't have toxic people at tesla people don't pull their weight people are difficult we just fire them so he obviously pays people well and then he fires people who perform badly or who are difficult so that's positive and negative stimuli right everything that works in your life is delivered by people who are willing to apply positive and negative stimuli because if they're not willing to apply positive and negative stimuli stuff doesn't get made stuff the electricity doesn't work the internet doesn't work right computers don't work everything becomes soviet crap sorry go ahead.
[49:46] Oh i just wanted to say that's what happened in my father's restaurant. I started doing more and more work and the restaurant's closed now, but you're totally right.
[50:00] So, in order to be treated with respect, you have to be able to apply positive and negative stimuli. And so, when I was in my sort of heyday on social media, I applied positive and negative stimuli. I mean, I did it within the bounds of honor and so on, but, you know, people who made good arguments, I would give them praise. People who made bad arguments, I would criticize. And sometimes I would make fun of them, right?
[50:26] Right.
[50:29] And sometimes I would mock them and sometimes I would be sarcastic right so that's positive and negative stimuli and that's just the reality of the world that we live in that most people and of course school and to some degree religion has to do with this positive and negative stimuli, religion for instance does not view people as motivated by virtue which is why there's heaven as the positive stimuli and hell as the negative stimuli. Most people don't have an internal work ethic, and so they have to be offered raises or being threatened with being fired. Now, the people you know who are operating beyond a positive and negative stimuli are those with FU money, right? So Elon Musk clearly is not working because he's got bills to pay, right? I mean, the guy lives on people's couches and is worth hundreds of billions of dollars, right?
[51:26] Right, right.
[51:28] So, a movie star, you know, there are a couple of movie stars. I think Jim Carrey just did Sonic the Hedgehog 3 because he says he needs some money, and Marlon Brando famously did roles in order to make money and really didn't give a shit about his art. But most movie stars who are worth a lot of money, like Tom Cruise is worth, what, like $400 million, and he'll still jump off buildings and shatter his stupid ankle because he wants to do some Mission Impossible thing, right? So he's beyond positive and negative stimuli, which is why you want to try and be around the most successful people who are doing what they want out of passion, right? And the application of positive and negative stimuli is foundational to the whole question of deplatforming and what goes on in the world, right? Oh, if you talk about this topic, you're going to lose your platform, you're going to lose your payments, you're going to do whatever, right? You lose your payment processing. So that's just positive and negative stimuli. I'm sorry?
[52:26] Sorry. i said ostracism as well as a negative stimuli.
[52:30] In regards racism is yeah ostracism is certainly part of it ostracism is different from de-platforming that ostracism is i'm not going to interact with you de-platforming is i'm going to make sure no one interacts with you or you know the essential people and so on that's a right it's a different matter of thing right so so breaking up with a girlfriend is saying i don't want to date you anymore but de-platforming is more like and i'm going to get you fired and i'm going to spread lies about you that you have herpes and i'm going to make sure no one ever dates you again and i'm going to stalk your social media like then it turns kind of psycho stalker right that's different from just ostracism which is i don't want to right but organizing that other people won't interact with you is a different kind of stalkerish yeah you're right so if you want to be treated with respect then.
[53:20] You have to be willing sadly i mean it's just a fact right you have to be willing to apply positive and negative stimuli. And this is why bosses tend to get more respect, as you point out, because they can apply positive and negative stimuli. They can give people raises and they can fire people. It's positive and negative stimuli. Now, please understand, I have no issue with giving people raises if they do a good job, and I have no issue with firing people if they do a bad job. That's fine. But the best motivations are the thing itself, not the raise or the working to avoid getting fired, right? Do it good. Otherwise, people just do the bare minimum and you end up in this kind of weird Soviet economy or this Japanese zombie economy where nobody gets fired and nobody really gets any raises either. So in life as a whole, I think one of the reasons that you would have a difficulty going forward and getting work is, is you made some negative choices as a young man, right? And listen, I did too. Everybody has. You're not alone. And it's certainly nothing to be ashamed of, but we got to call it what it is. You not finishing high school was a bad decision. You say, oh, well, but I was so depressed. It was still avoidant. If somebody had, like when you were down, really down, if somebody had offered you a million dollars to go to high school for the day would you have gone?
[54:49] Yes.
[54:50] Okay, so you could do it.
[54:52] Yes, I agree.
[54:53] So it's just a matter of motivation. To all the people who say well, I just can't work out it's so boring, it's so this it's like, okay, well if somebody offered you a million dollars would you go work out for a day? Yes. So you can. Now, if somebody's dying of cancer and somebody says I'll give you a million dollars to be cancer free, can they do that?
[55:13] No.
[55:14] No, they cannot do that. That's beyond their choice. Somebody gets their arm bitten off by some carcaridon carcarious, they can't be offered a million dollars, they can't get their arm back, right?
[55:25] Right.
[55:27] So when you were in high school, you decided not to go. Now, the more you say to yourself, well, I just couldn't, and I was so depressed, and so that's bullshit. Because if somebody had offered you a million dollars, you'd have gone. right yeah.
[55:45] No you're right yeah.
[55:46] So the million dollars is your motivation, yeah so just imagine somebody's offering you a million dollars, i mean jim carrey when he was younger he wrote a 10 million dollar check to himself saying i'm gonna make this in a movie one day now of course it's not magical he's also very talented and good looking nice head of hair and all that so good for him but there is that visualization aspect right right the moment the moment you say to yourself you can't you're right but there's no need to be if you say to yourself i i just i cannot go to school i can't you said this earlier i i can't they wanted to send me to summer school i can't go to summer school bullshit, of course you can go to summer school of course you could have finished high school, yeah you're because if somebody had offered you a million dollars you damn well would have done it so don't try and hide among the people dying of cancer saying, I don't have any more free will than they do.
[56:54] Right, yeah, yeah.
[56:55] Somebody gets pushed out of a plane and you offer them a million dollars not to fall, they can't take your money, right?
[57:02] Yeah.
[57:03] So when you go back, and this is my concern, when you said, well, my regrets are lower now. No, no, no. Regrets are when you forgot the million dollar pile of free will that's accessible to you anytime you want it.
[57:15] I was just about to say that, yeah.
[57:18] So you go back and you say, well, I couldn't, and I was this, and I was so that, and I'm down and depressed and anxious and overwhelming and blah, blah, blah. Listen, please, I'm not a tough guy this way. I totally sympathize. I really do. I mean, there have been times when I haven't wanted to get out of bed and do a show.
[57:37] Wow.
[57:39] So I get that. And I really say, I'm not like how, you know, that's bullshit that the feelings, that the feelings are real and they're important. But don't you dare lie to yourself and say you couldn't.
[57:53] Yeah, you're right.
[57:54] Because when you're on your deathbed And you look back and you're like gonna die You know Next month Next week, Next Tuesday Tomorrow morning This morning One hour, half an hour I think we get a countdown in our minds For most people, So when you're fading out at the age of 90 or some sort of Google-enabled Jimmy Carter age. Now, all we gotta do is die. Everything else is a choice. Would you sit there and say, well, I'm dying. The doctors can't save me. They're just making me comfortable. It's just I'm winding down. Ticker's dying. Lungs are fading. Everything's falling apart. Everything's going dark. I'm never getting out of this bed again. Would you look back and say, well, there's just no way I could have gone to summer school?
[59:02] No, I wouldn't.
[59:03] No, there's no way you're getting out of your deathbed. but there's a damn way you could have gone to summer school with all the sympathy of your bad childhood and this is the combo right some people are too much sympathy and then that turns into excuses and some people are too much discipline without the sympathy i bring both i really sympathize with your childhood it was wretched awful and horrible it sounds like but i cannot i cannot extend to you the no free will thing.
[59:31] Yeah you're right the.
[59:34] Language so when you Yeah, so when you said, well, I couldn't get people to respect me because my father wouldn't fire them, that's saying that you have no choice to get people to treat you with respect. And the only way you can get people to treat you with respect is to get your father to threaten them.
[59:53] Yeah.
[59:55] But that is bypassing the central fact that for most people for most people, they will judge you how you judge yourself and that is not a bad standard i'm telling you i mean i wish everyone had the whole whole internal morality and integrity thing i get that but it's not a terrible standard to say that, that I'm going to judge you by how you judge yourself. So if you go into a job interview and you're standing up straight, you extend your arm, you give a firm handshake, you keep eye contact, right? What does that say?
[1:00:35] It says I'm confident and enthusiastic to be there.
[1:00:40] Yeah, I'm confident. I know I provide value. If you ask questions back and say, tell me about the culture, I want to make sure it's a good fit, you know tell me about the salary and uh have you checked to see if it's market competitive or whatever it is you're going to say in a job interview you're saying look i'm i'm looking for a good fit i'm not desperate i'm not starving i'm not begging for a job i'm looking for a good fit same thing happens in the dating market right i mean i'm sure you've seen over the course of your life we all have you've seen some girl you know with the hunched shoulders staring down at her belly button maybe some oddly colored hair some giant freaky glasses and just you know walking around like she's half bent over question mark clamshell stuff right yeah.
[1:01:30] I've seen that.
[1:01:31] Now you judge that woman as being very insecure right i.
[1:01:36] Would yeah right.
[1:01:38] And you'd be right, yeah because she is, On the other hand, if there's some guy who's some big swinging dick, half-silverback jerkwad, who comes in and is totally loud and flops down on the couch and spreads his legs and kicks over your drink and like, okay, that's a little hysterically over-alpha douchebag, right?
[1:02:07] Yeah.
[1:02:08] So that's too much confidence, right? So, if you don't feel that you can encourage people to treat you with respect, then people generally will not treat you with respect.
[1:02:29] Yeah, and I've felt, as I've gotten older and listened to the show in the beginning, it felt as if it was impossible. And then now it's just more like precarious and I'm uncertain if people can treat me with respect.
[1:02:42] It feels like a con job, right? Everybody gets that frauditis, I used to call it in the business world, right? Like I ran a whole software company, and I'd never taken a computer science class, right? So I programmed all the software. I was self-taught, right? And so on, right? Oh, yeah. And of course, I don't have a PhD in philosophy from Stanford or Harvard, right? Or anything sort of nonsense, right? So I get that, right? But here's the thing. Most people, try to conserve as many resources as possible right which is why you will order pizza rather than walk to go and get the pizza right because you want to save all of those calories and all of that energy so here's the fact the fact of the matter is that treating people with respect, is more work than treating them with disrespect and.
[1:03:31] Why is that.
[1:03:31] Because you have to negotiate oh yeah more if you treat people with just yeah if you treat people with disrespect just tell them what the hell to do and snap at them where they don't and they'll just do it right yeah.
[1:03:43] Scare them shitless and.
[1:03:44] Yeah just do what you want let's intimidate them bully them and they'll just do what you want and you don't have to expend all of this pissy energy with this back and forth negotiating bullshit right right it is energy efficient to be a bully yeah i i mean i sit around i sit around of my family you know especially over the holidays and we're all like well what do you want to do well i don't know i've thought of this or what do you want like we're all negotiating try and find the best thing for us to do and you know we'll sometimes spend like half an hour trying to figure out what to do and then we'll hit on something oh yeah we all want to do it right that sounds so if yeah well it is but it's time consuming right whereas if i was just some i don't know a-hole patriarch right i'd just be like okay we're gonna do this right never line up everyone going to write i'm sure your dad was a little bit like that as well so it's just very energy efficient, to be authoritarian.
[1:04:37] Yeah my father was this old saying.
[1:04:40] About mussolini right at least he made the trains run on time i'm so sorry go ahead.
[1:04:43] I wanted to mention with my father being authoritarian he was kind of more like on i would say kind of like the communist world where it's like that soft core, authoritarian we're manipulative and as well as antagonistic and that was something that took me a while to really understand how bad my childhood was because it was a lot of, gaslighting and and and manipulation and then like because my father had a a reputation to maintain with this restaurant it's like i felt this really hard pressure it's like do not fuck his reputation because that not only like my father was the breadwinner so it's like that would just screw me over but also like financially uh as a kid i but also too it's just i did not want to upset my father and you know so to speak rock the boat it was very like it was a very tense um especially when i was younger it's very tense and then you know as i got older and my father could exploit me for you know for work at the restaurant it changed and right and such right.
[1:05:41] So i mean when it comes to say de-platforming me is it easier for people to call me a bigot and a racist or whatever and then just get me shut down or is it easier for them to study all of the, history philosophy biology to interview like i interviewed 17 subject matter experts in the field of human intelligence and variances and so on right is it easier to just call me names in terms of energy or is it easier to debate me and prove me wrong.
[1:06:17] It's easier to call you names sure.
[1:06:20] Sure so it's energy efficient right.
[1:06:22] Right if.
[1:06:24] You want to shut me up you can either find ways to prove me wrong and then wreck my reputation because I'm an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Or you can just call me names, get me deplatformed, and it's way more energy efficient.
[1:06:39] Yeah, lying is energy efficient as well.
[1:06:43] Right. I mean, this is why in the animal kingdom, frankly, there's a lot of rape. Because in the animal kingdom, not that it's rape, but it's not necessarily the most consensual. I think dolphins are quite non-consensual in their sexual activity and you know tragically and obviously it's evil for human beings but in the animal kingdom it's whatever right it's it's it's not as complicated as wooing so to speak right right so but recognizing self and other, and negotiating to mutual benefit you know is it easier to sit down with a bunch of your workers and negotiate a good contract, or is it easier from a sort of energy standpoint in the short run to just have slaves that you beat if they don't do exactly what you want? So when you're saying, treat me with respect, you're saying to people, I want you to expend a lot more energy in your relationship with me.
[1:07:45] Right.
[1:07:46] Now, people basically, because they don't have a lot of internalized ethics, they say, wait, why should I?
[1:07:53] Yeah, yeah, and they judge me, yeah.
[1:07:56] Well, instead of saying somebody's just driving to work, right, takes them half an hour to drive to work, you're saying to them, oh, you should come and pick me up, even though oh, it's 15 minutes out of your way. And then instead of half an hour, it's an hour, right? 15 minutes to get me, 15 minutes to get back half an hour to drive. And people are saying, wait, you're asking me to expend more energy on your behalf?
[1:08:17] Yeah.
[1:08:19] But it's the same thing with asking for respect. You're asking people to expend more energy on your behalf.
[1:08:29] Right.
[1:08:30] And the question is why? Why should people expend more energy on your behalf by treating you with respect? Now, again, I understand the internal ethics and motivations and virtues, blah, blah, blah, but that's not where the world is, right?
[1:08:43] Right.
[1:08:44] So, how do you get people to want to expend more energy on your behalf, and it feels like it's costing them energy, and it feels like it's benefiting you?
[1:08:55] You provide something that benefits them.
[1:08:58] Okay, and what's that?
[1:09:03] I can't think of a principle but um i i don't really have a good answer um but what did you it's not easy right yeah it's definitely it like depends on the situation like maybe you um you you start showing some camaraderie so they feel like oh you know they i'm on their side there could also be uh monetary like uh maybe what i start doing is inviting them to lunches if they if they're willing to pick me up and I also pay for gas or something, you know, make it...
[1:09:36] Well, waiters, like with waiters, to use a restaurant scenario, generally, the more expensive the restaurant, the better the waiters, right?
[1:09:43] Yeah, exactly.
[1:09:44] So in that case, the waiter is treating you with more respect, right? But you're paying the waiter more, right? You're buying respect, right? And movie stars get paid a lot because they will treat the audience with respect and do a really good job. They will half-ass it for the most part, right? So, you have to, for the most part, you have to bribe or threaten people into treating you with respect. I know it's sad. And we're just talking about professional stuff, right? And your personal relationships is not what you want, right?
[1:10:16] Right, right.
[1:10:20] So, in general, the way that I have done it is the principle I've talked about from the beginning. Treat people the very best you can the first time you meet them, and after that, treat them as they treat you. So, I extend courtesy, dignity, respect, blah, blah, blah, first time interacting with someone. If they then turn out to be, you know, kind of a manipulative jerk, then gloves are off.
[1:10:41] Right, and then it's win-lose.
[1:10:44] Well then it's just like okay well if you're not somebody who responds to being treated well then you have outed yourself as a stimulus response person and i'm not going to treat you any differently from that i'm not going to have my internal system of ethics dictate how i do things right so i've mentioned this story before so i'll keep it very brief in one of the businesses i was hired into as an executive, I had my number two guy was really disrespectful.
[1:11:16] And, you know, like in front of the entire team, when I was questioning or opposing something, he said, he's like, yeah, really, you're really pissing me off, man. You know, just like, it's like, that's not how you talk to really anyone in business, right? I mean, if you've got an issue, you take it behind closed doors and work it out. And he was just difficult and becoming, I just knew like I just knew this was going to be a conflict so I went to my boss and said I want to fire this guy and he's like no no he's been here for a long time he's integral and so on I'm like yeah but you know he made the QA girl cry he's you know a QA woman cry and and he's really disrespectful and kind of hostile and you can feel this you know and you feel that ugly temper in the room and so on right oh yeah so my boss was like give it a little bit of time blah blah blah so I gave it a bit more time and then I asked again and and I said look to me finally boss I got to be able to fire the people right it's like well you know we're more of a family here i'm like okay so but it wasn't someone who was going to respond to a virtue so um we were just in a meeting.
[1:12:14] With the senior management and this guy was there and i just provoked him until he blew up, and then i didn't even have to fire him my boss fired him right so i mean i'm just you know i would treat if you're trapped in treating everyone like they're rational you can't get anything done because most people are not most people are stimulus response yeah so treat people the best you can and after that treat them as as they treat you and sometimes i honestly sometimes i've been five or ten years between stimulus and response like i remember this in the business world like people who crossed me you know in a fairly small industry which was the environmental software industry back then. In a fairly small industry, you keep running into the same people. And if someone had.
[1:13:04] Uh screwed me uh sooner or later like i was going to be in some position over them i don't mean necessarily their boss but it would be something to do with a customer or a client or a recommendation because if our software didn't meet a particular client's requirements i would suggest someone else who did right because you gain credibility that way and it's being more objective right even if it was a competitor who did something better than we did i'd say no if you're really looking for this these are your guys not us right and so if somebody screwed me i would just uh find ways to drop hints that this was not the most ethical business situation this was not the most ethical business person and i think i probably torpedoed at least two or three companies that way and sometimes you just have to be patient and and so on right but when you're with moral people you deal with them in a moral manner when you're with amoral people you deal with them in an amoral manner. And that's the most rational and productive thing to do. Like, when you're with a little kitty cat, you pet it. And when you're not with a little kitty cat, and you're the big tiger, then you get inside the van, right?
[1:14:09] Right. Yeah.
[1:14:12] So if you have that kind of permission, then you can be confident. But if you're trapped in, well, everyone has to treat me with dignity, and I have to treat everyone with dignity, and everyone has to respect me, and I have to respect everyone, you're trapped. And you can't actually achieve anything positive in this world because that's not how most people operate.
[1:14:28] That was my situation i you're spot on when it comes to that and thank you for the example too.
[1:14:35] And then you just get you get hurt and you get upset and i understand that i really do, but to me listen there's nothing wrong you know man to man right we just let's bro it up for a second here let's sausage fest it right there's nothing wrong with a little old-fashioned combat is there i have an enemy and fight your enemy no.
[1:14:57] I definitely agree nowadays yeah oh yeah.
[1:14:59] I mean if it takes a while to get someone fired or it takes a while to get someone to lose credibility, take your time yeah it's no rush you know revenge is a dish best served cold and it's it's it's It's masculine and healthy to say, hey, treat me well, I'll treat you well. Treat me badly, gloves are off, let's roll. You know, we are still men who fought guerrillas. We are still men who fought other men. We are still men who have to draw swords in our history, and that's part of us. Now, we want to keep it civilized and peaceful and so on, but no, have your enemies. and work for their downfall. And when and the funny thing is is that when you have that air you actually develop fewer enemies.
[1:15:56] I can believe that yeah i can believe that.
[1:15:59] Because people will be like okay he's got a bit of a hardness to him he's got a bit of an edge to him well.
[1:16:04] I would imagine the way you move and interact as well just like uh non-verbally just uh gives you that cue it's like oh he's gonna if i mess with him he's gonna he's gonna get me back like he doesn't.
[1:16:15] And you get a reputation yeah you get a reputation over time and you will find so if if all you do is cling to and i hate to say cling to that's really becky the question but if all you do is is overly attached to well i everyone owes me respect and if i don't get respect i'm helpless i have to run to dad right no if people don't give you respect if the people treat you badly then you know you can try and reason with them you can try no but if they if they're committed to treating you badly, then they're your enemies and you work for their downfall yeah that's healthy, i i i would love it if we could i could love it if we could negotiate and reason with everyone i mean that's what i'm aiming for but that's not the world we live in i agree, And if you have the confidence of knowing that your security and your strength is not dependent upon the goodwill of others, right? This is a terrifying line in a play, Streetcar Named Desire, where the crazy woman says, whoever you are, I've always relied on the kindness of strangers. It's like, well, you can't move through life relying on the kindness of strangers. You've got to have some balls and biceps.
[1:17:35] Yeah, especially as men.
[1:17:37] I'm not saying you don't, right? But you've got to have a little bit of that Conan spirit, a little bit of that glint-eyed devil in you. Because if you're just rolling through life, crossing your fingers that everyone treats you well, I mean, you're just going to get rolled.
[1:17:54] Oh, yeah.
[1:17:58] You should follow this woman. I think her name is Dr. Karen Mitchell on X. She does really great dives into the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the dark triad personalities, and so on. And her estimates of their prevalence in the population as a whole is north of 10%.
[1:18:16] Oh, wow.
[1:18:17] So you're just going to run into these people, and they're more on the edges and more on the extreme cases and so on, right? But, if you are sailing through life crossing your fingers that you're going to be meeting only moral people then it's going to be very hard for you to gain any security or stability.
[1:18:46] Yeah I agree.
[1:18:49] So if you say listen I definitely want to. And it's all just about giving yourself permission. Giving yourself permission to have enemies is fine. That's life. There's good and evil people in the world. There's good and bad people. There's right and wrong people. And giving yourself permission to have enemies and to not feel bad if you work against them. And of course, obviously, I'm not talking about anything that violates the non-aggression principle or fraud or anything like that.
[1:19:21] Right. Right.
[1:19:27] But I mean, the guy, the guy I got fired and this happened on more than one occasion. This is the one that's just the most vivid. But yeah, the guy I got fired. I mean, he literally put me down as a reference. I couldn't believe it.
[1:19:39] I couldn't believe it.
[1:19:40] Yeah, I couldn't believe it.
[1:19:43] I mean, to me, that's hilarious.
[1:19:46] Well, and but if you're like, well, you know, you either get overly angry, right? Or you just overly of a pushover. But yeah, the guy put me down as a reference. I was like amazed I'm like well you know he may get a job but it sure as hell won't be because of me.
[1:20:04] I had respect for that.
[1:20:05] Well and and it's just self-respect though right I mean I gave him every opportunity to be reasonable and and so on and if people choose that path it's like hey man I mean, I wish you didn't, but you did, and now we're enemies, and you've got to give yourself permission to be a hotass. It doesn't do virtue any service at all to just wander through the world like everyone's already virtuous, because they're not. We become virtuous for the same reason that doctors become doctors, is because there are sick people in the world. And there are evil people in the world and i tell you this man sure shit they're working for your downfall yeah.
[1:20:53] No i know that intimately like uh um the example just escaped me sorry.
[1:21:00] Well no i i'm sure we can all think back on this but yeah give yourself permission to have enemies give yourself permission to tell the truth, and give yourself permission to work for the downfall of people who are corrupt or immoral. And do it smart and be careful, obviously.
[1:21:22] Yeah.
[1:21:23] And you'll find very quickly that people will sense that about you and treat you a whole lot better.
[1:21:30] Yeah. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And it helps a lot because, well, for me, like in the past, I was convinced by others that I overreacted. Now that I look back on it, it wasn't an overaction. It's just they didn't like it that I was establishing boundaries, and I was serious about it.
[1:21:57] Well, just remember, people used to fight duels at dawn.
[1:22:01] What do you mean by that?
[1:22:03] Well, I mean, in the past, if someone pissed you off, you'd slap their face with a glove, and it would be pistols at dawn, and one of you would get fucking shot.
[1:22:13] Oh, yeah, I get what you mean now. Yeah, yeah.
[1:22:16] Of course, I'm not recommending that or endorsing that as a solution, but what I am saying is that for males, having enemies in particular and working for their downfall is healthy. If you're virtuous, it's good for the world, too.
[1:22:34] Yeah.
[1:22:41] Now, does that mean you'll win every time? No. I mean, I'd be the last guy to say that. But you win in terms of your conscience, right? I mean, have I won against anyone? Have I won against everyone who's ever crossed me and put me down? No, of course not. Because, you know, you can't win every time. But I have sort of emerged into a life that is joyful and full of love and great friendships and great relationships. I mean, I've won in a pretty existential way, I would say.
[1:23:12] Yeah.
[1:23:13] But that doesn't mean that you win every battle. Sorry, go ahead.
[1:23:15] Oh, apologies. And winning at all costs is also, I realize it's a bad idea, especially when I was an adult. There are kind of limitations. For example, the non-aggression principle, that's a limitation, but it's better to do that than not.
[1:23:35] Yeah, I mean, look, again, I'm talking about honorable ways of having enemies and just telling the truth. I mean, with people I fired, I never lied about why I fired them, but I never sugar-coated it either.
[1:23:49] Right.
[1:23:49] Just tell the truth. And it's okay. It's okay and healthy to be pissed off at people. It's okay and healthy to apply, you know, peaceful, benevolent, negative stimuli, like bad references if somebody wants a job. And yeah, I had a guy who asked me to get him an interview, and it was an acquaintance, and I'm like, yeah, it seems like a nice enough guy, so I got him an interview for a job, and he didn't show up.
[1:24:22] Oh, no.
[1:24:22] And that's bad for me, because it looks like I'm no judge of character, and I wasted the manager's time for him setting up an interview, and what happens to the next guy I recommend to that manager? Like, it's just bad all around, right? Now, I get it, shit happens in life, you know, but, you know, the guy didn't call up, he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I guess I just forgot. You know, one of these, like, non-explanations that just is like, okay. So then, you know, the guy's like, you know, hey, man, but if you could set me up again, I was like, nope. No.
[1:24:54] Yes. Yeah.
[1:24:56] Right? So, like, he wasn't an enemy or anything like that, but it's like negative consequences. If I set you up for an interview, you move heaven and earth to get there, and if you don't, I'm never doing it again. And that's healthy because the guy shouldn't get all these i mean if it was some 17 year old kid maybe or whatever right but this guy was in his late 20s or whatever right yeah i can so yeah uh it's okay to have standards it's okay to spit a little piss and vinegar it's okay to have a little fire in the belly and it's okay, to have people you dislike and to either work against them or to fail to support them and that's perfectly fine it's perfectly healthy and you'll find if you apply that in general that you'll be treated a whole lot better in the long run because you are aligned with reality and the reality is if you're a baby zebra you don't assume that every weird smell and moving piece of grass is just some, buffalo crap and some wind. No, sometimes it's a lion.
[1:26:08] Right.
[1:26:09] And you've got to adjust yourself accordingly.
[1:26:14] Thank you, Stef. You really made it clear also, at least in my mind, how what we just talked about was very difficult for me, because the people that I, that were bad and I disliked the most were, you know, my parents and being a child. I mean, that's really tough to navigate, especially...
[1:26:34] It is, and, you know, massive sympathies. Like, if you weren't taught Japanese, learning Japanese is really hard, and I really sympathize with that. And look, you're a great young man and obviously very intelligent. I really appreciate that you listened to the show and that you are, you know, the first caller in the new year, in the 20th year of the show. So, So I massive respect and massive sympathies to you. And, you know, you did a great job over the course of the convo. And I really do appreciate that as well.
[1:27:01] Thank you, Stef. And to many more years.
[1:27:04] All right, man. Thank you so much. Now I have, believe it or not, a social engagement, which I am going to get myself ready for. Really do appreciate everyone for listening to the show. Freedomain.com slash donate to help out. Would be hugely appreciated. Thank you everyone so much. Lots of love from up here, my friends. we will talk soon. Bye.
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