0:03 - A Painful Backstory
38:31 - Childhood Trauma and Abuse
48:08 - The Cycle of Violence
54:44 - The Fear of Fighting Back
1:11:15 - Growing Up in a Patriarchal Culture
1:22:16 - The Absence of Male Role Models
1:29:59 - Defining the Separation from Mother
1:30:54 - Questioning Communication
1:44:44 - The Complexity of Family Dynamics
1:51:51 - Facing the Past
2:03:50 - Confronting Abuse
2:12:11 - The Weight of Responsibility
2:24:58 - Breaking the Cycle
2:35:22 - Loyalty and Morality
2:41:59 - Authority in Marriage
2:56:38 - The Importance of Male Authority
In this episode, we dive deep into a complex and emotionally charged conversation with a caller who shares his experiences of childhood trauma stemming from an abusive mother. The caller recounts a history of physical and emotional abuse from his parents, including neglect and violence that shaped his formative years. After reconciling with these painful memories upon becoming a father himself, he made the difficult decision to distance himself from his mother following a particularly honest and confronting phone call.
We explore the nuances of familial relationships, especially the challenges faced when a spouse has to navigate their partner's relationship with an abusive family member. The caller expresses regret over introducing his wife to his mother, now feeling caught in a web of conflicting loyalties. His wife, coming from a stable family background devoid of divorce, struggles to understand the depths of his pain and the rationale behind his decision to "defoo" or emotionally detach from his mother.
In our discussion, we dig into philosophical and psychological themes related to accountability, boundaries, and the dynamics of power in relationships. The caller grapples with feelings of betrayal as his wife hesitates to fully condemn his mother due to a lack of personal experience with such abusive family dynamics. The tension escalates as we discuss the importance of setting healthy boundaries for the sake of their children, particularly the need to shield them from the negative influence of an unrepentant abuser.
As the conversation unfolds, we touch upon the themes of authority, particularly male authority in relationships, and the implications of allowing toxic influences to persist. The caller confronts his internalizations and struggles with asserting the wisdom he seeks to instill in his children. We emphasize the importance of honesty in relationships and the need for mutual respect, especially when dealing with difficult family dynamics.
The episode culminates in a powerful exploration of how to navigate these turbulent waters while maintaining the integrity of the family unit. Our discussion paves the way for understanding the complexities that come with such detachment and the ongoing journey of healing, self-forgiveness, and reclaiming personal power in the face of past trauma.
[0:00] All right, let's go with the message then. So a backstory.
[0:03] My mother was physically and emotionally abusive in my childhood. She divorced my alcoholic and abusive father when I was around five or maybe six years old. So most of my pre and teenage years were marked by massive neglect and occasional beatings. We had no bond, no closeness, no love, but still we had moments of sentimentality towards each other. and I remained on speaking terms with her up until my first son was born when I had to revisit basically all my life for the sake of his future. I defood for my mother in October 2022 after our emotional and honest two-hour phone call. In a way, I was inspired by your calling shows that I discovered around three or maybe four months before that. before that i introduced her which my mother to my wife around three years ago they saw each other in person twice back when we were dating around 2019 and then when my son was around six months old in january 2022 and both times it was very briefly for a couple of days.
[1:23] They both started speaking over the phone when my son was born and my mother and was mostly interested in him back then it was a relief for me since i could skip my boring conversations with her back then i was bored with her because my anger came gradually later so now my wife is in a difficult situation because her husband, me, fully condemned his mother for her past crimes. At the same time, he introduced them to each other when we were still on speaking terms. And my wife is not coming from a divorced family or anything like that. She had good relationships with both of her parents. So my sudden defooing caught her totally off guard. My wife cannot condemn my mother in the same way since she didn't do any direct harm to her or our kids or even to me when I was basically an adult. At the same time, she's appalled at what my mother did to me as a child. My wife even keeps insisting that my mother loved and still loves me and at the same time admits that a loving parent will never abuse their child in the same way. That's a total contradiction. On the other hand, it was I who introduced them to each other and facilitated their connection mainly over the kids-grandkids topic. And I feel absolutely terrible for doing this to my wife.
[2:52] It's one of my biggest regrets ever. At the same time, I'm at least happy that I was able to keep my kids away from my mother and that they don't even know her.
[3:03] My wife had several conversations with my mother about all that post-Difuwin situation, but she does not want to take sides anyway. She is torn apart. Every time this topic surfaces in our conversations, I get emotional, angry, and stern. and my main pain point is not that my mother was abusive and became even worse after being confronted it's that my own wife is on the fence and cannot condemn the person she barely knows who did the most harm to her husband that she claims to love last time i spoke about it with my wife and got so heated that she threatened me with separation if i kept this negativity, and aggressiveness about the past. She thinks that I need therapy. Well, I say that no amount of therapy will change my stance on child abusers. I will always be angry at them. It's like my natural immunity now. I fully accept the responsibility for doing this to my wife, but I feel terrible knowing that she won't take my side in this situation. In a way, I feel betrayed. I know that you, Stefan, care about the children. And if philosophy can help me and my kids in this situation, I'd be happy to talk about it with you. Have a great day and thanks for all your wonderful work throughout the years. So a number of years of a listener, three years. And yes, I listened to calling shows before.
[4:31] No, I appreciate it. But one of the things I love about philosophy is there's always a new and exciting problem to be solved or at least to try to solve. So I, you know, I really sympathize with what's going on. And let's obviously start with the childhood and tell me what were the sins of your parents?
[4:55] So basically they were, they got together on good old lust, I guess, if you can call it good. and my father by this time was already two times married and divorced with two kids from previous marriages and this was not like a red flag for my mother for some reason she also knew that he was he was he was a drinker but he was a fungi and he was loved by all the women around them so this was one of the uh the key points why they got together she mentioned many times that she married him in to spite others like i don't know it's it was it was that so but then obvious thing came in i was sorry sorry just.
[5:50] Help help me understand how because if it's lust that's one thing. If it's spiting others, that's another. And just sort of step me through the details, if you could, about how marrying your father was spiteful towards others.
[6:05] Well, she was very good looking. She was very good looking. So I guess Luz was kind of here. And despite, I mean, she was, it's like she was able to, when he was in demand with all the other women around him. Oh, not to spite.
[6:24] But to win.
[6:26] Yeah, kind of like that.
[6:27] Okay, sorry. I thought spiteful, like vengeful or, okay. And you're not using the word incorrectly. I just took it the other way. okay so i just wanted to make sure i.
[6:35] Understood that so.
[6:36] So to triumph over other because.
[6:39] Your father was good looking or high.
[6:41] Status or in high demand right.
[6:42] Exactly yeah okay got it that's that so and then after about a year and a half two years i was born and surprise surprise, um every basically all the red flags that was was seen before they just manifested in the same way he was um well basically abusing alcohol he was physically abusive she she mentioned that i don't remember any of that but she mentioned that he beat me to the point that you know i got the um i got bruises that uh that was visible and they were too embarrassed to uh that you know people in daycare would notice that and this this combined so you.
[7:34] Were beaten when you were a toddler.
[7:35] Yeah sure sure no sorry it's a little disconcerting.
[7:40] Because you have no emotions about any of this.
[7:42] No no no i.
[7:43] Got beaten as a toddler yeah sure.
[7:45] Yeah i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm actually don't be quite that i'm.
[7:49] Not saying you got a sob on cue but being that disconnected it's a bit disconcerting.
[7:53] Yeah you're right you're absolutely right i'm too nervous now to uh to actually uh to get into this don't.
[7:59] Be nervous don't be nervous it's just a it's just a conversation so don't be nervous but um.
[8:04] Well it's just this is like the first time i i'm i'm talking about this to just about anyone except for my wife and.
[8:12] Your parents i suppose to some degree.
[8:13] Yeah to my parents no listen i've never i.
[8:16] Sympathize and listen i'm not saying you've got to summon emotions right and i'm not saying you've got to be choked up i i'm not saying that but just not yeah yeah no like that's like we're discussing a grocery list that's a bit disconcerting.
[8:28] Yeah yeah you're right you're absolutely right i should be more connected i guess uh so yeah sorry were.
[8:35] You beaten with implements or was it just by by hand.
[8:38] I don't know with my father i don't know i have just a small little glimpses of something i guess it was mostly mostly but no implements the implements will come later with my mother, uh that's okay so sorry go ahead you.
[8:55] Were talking about the your father's violence your mother's drinking and and so on.
[8:59] You know my father's drinking and his father sorry yeah so uh finally my mom in a way was fed up with all this um her main pain point was yeah that he was actually drinking almost every every working day so it's it's like a like a drinking culture in my home country where you know people in the 90s or in this case 80s 90s were going you know just blue collar workers they were just going drinking with their co-workers after every day and he was you know coming back um uh after been drinking and uh so my mom was fed up with this and with, obviously, all the beatings.
[9:49] I think he was also beating her, and not only me, to the point that we had to leave the apartment when we were leaving and go to her mother, his mother. So it was just chaos like this. And finally, when I was about to go to school, This is when she basically pulled the plug on this. And he was totally against this. He did not want this because in a way, he couldn't live without a wife, basically. He was basically a guy who wanted to work. and all the household duties child raising and everything else was basically um should have been done by the wife and he was kind of not very um independent in this way he couldn't even you know cook for himself so.
[10:58] He was basically going from sorry let me just understand so uh how old were you when your parents split up you said when you were heading to school so like five or so five.
[11:07] Or six yeah.
[11:08] Okay and do you know if there was i mean you're too young i assume to remember much of the marriage but was there a um like a final straw or something that happened or was it just a slow accumulation that you know of.
[11:22] I think it was just critical mass was i i think my mom she mentioned also a couple of times that, after they they got married she wanted like basically a divorce after like a couple of days, it was that bad right off the bat but then you know they just kind of stayed together and it was It's just from one thing to another. And she even claimed to her older sister when my father, when he proposed to her, she came to her sister, her older sister. And she said, this guy, he proposed, I'm dating another guy and he wants to take me to the other town. and this guy wants to marry me right away, what should I do? And she said, well, marry him. And she said, I don't love him. And she says, I don't love my own husband now. This is normal. They consider this state normal. If you don't love, no problem. Just get married. And yeah, this is how it all started, I guess. yeah so she she got married and then wanted a divorce she mentioned a couple of times that you know i'm married to uh to divorce and uh all this is very she married.
[12:49] Sorry she married to divorce i'm not quite.
[12:52] Sure what yeah kind of what this something like that she she mentioned this couple of times she felt like she she married just to just to divorce all she wanted to get out of it.
[13:05] Oh, so the divorce was inevitable given who she married.
[13:08] Yeah, exactly. All she wanted to get out of this is to have a child. And back then, it was mostly you can only get a kid if you're married from your husband or whatever.
[13:26] Sorry, did you have any siblings? I guess not.
[13:28] No, I'm the only child.
[13:30] Okay. Alright. So... Around five or six, your mother leaves your father, and then what happens?
[13:40] Yeah so they they uh they got divorced and um i stayed with my mother well sure she.
[13:47] Divorced him is that right.
[13:48] Yeah exactly exactly he and it was actually legally possible even though he was against us so i didn't.
[13:58] Understand that it was legally possible even though he was against this.
[14:01] Yes exactly exactly that okay so she could divorce.
[14:03] Him uh regardless.
[14:05] Unilaterally his objection.
[14:06] Okay got it.
[14:07] Yeah yeah maybe he she presented her case you know the abuse and everything and i don't know but the uh in my home country the the divorce was always very easy so the divorce rates are very high so that's because it's very easy to do it yeah so um what else uh well did.
[14:30] You stay with your mother.
[14:32] Yeah exactly or shared no no no no i i think after this after five or six up to uh maybe when i was 17 and i was leaving my mother to uh go study in the uh in the another city, i've seen my father like maybe a couple of times five oh so he basically stopped.
[14:54] Being a practical father for you and just was.
[14:57] Like exactly who.
[14:58] Got tossed okay.
[14:59] Yeah yeah well he He wasn't much of a father, even when we were living together, because his parenting was mostly treating me like some kind of grunt or a soldier. He basically ordered me around. This I remember. My mother confirmed this.
[15:25] Okay, and so you stayed with your mother, and how were things with your mother?
[15:30] It was terrible. It was actually pretty terrible. But I can only say this now, because I was under the impression for many, many years that it was kind of normal. you know if you're uh you have like uh your mother you're living with her sometimes you you got you got you know physical emotional and other kinds of abuses and you still you know you're still communicating even after i i moved out and everything yeah so um what really bugs me and just just angers me like a lot is the fact that she divorced my father because he was abusive in this way and then right after this maybe like a couple of years after this she did, many of the same things he he um he got divorced uh he got him divorced off whatever so he beat me.
[16:35] Well hang on hang on hang on so she divorced him because he was abusive towards you and.
[16:40] Her as well yeah and me.
[16:41] Okay so and her that's probably her first right because he was abusive to you for years but then i assume he was abusive towards her or was drinking too much to be a good provider or whatever it was right so no actually she was overly concerned with his abuse towards you well.
[16:59] Yeah because uh he basically stayed with him for like eight sorry for five six years.
[17:05] Well and i'm sure she would say that later later she well i had to leave him because he was beating you or whatever right that's but that's just you know the the first casualty of divorce is the truth right nobody can tell the truth about anything you know that's right i've never heard of that i've never seen that it's never going to happen in this or any of the universe, so um yeah so so the fact that she became abusive um is not uh shocking sadly given her character or her nature uh so i i understand the frustration but i can virtually guarantee you she didn't leave your dad because he was abusing you but because there was negative things to her.
[17:45] Yeah you're right you're right and um, But still, it was not, I knew this at the time that, you know, the divorce happened because of this, that, and the other. I was still living with her and, you know, got all this abuse. And at the same time, it didn't really occur to me, like, if she divorced him on this grounds, why am I still getting all this? And neglect on top of this. Because I was neglecting, because how could I not? she she should go back to work she was not you know working all the time that she she uh she was together with him so.
[18:29] Who took care of you when your mom went back to work.
[18:34] That's a good question that's a good question i would say school daycare and uh and her in some way it was oh.
[18:44] So you went from kindergarten to after school daycare and then you'd get picked up by your mom.
[18:49] Yeah exactly that and after school yeah exactly exactly.
[18:53] And what did your mom do for a living.
[18:55] What did she do she was um she was working in a factory as like um as like a lab technician slash chemists so i'm okay so she.
[19:10] Was educated like a professional or a semi-professional Is that right?
[19:14] Yes, something like that. Semi-professional is a better description.
[19:18] Did your father pay child support or alimony or anything like that? Did you know of?
[19:24] I know that he did not for the most part. He was obliged to pay something, but his official salary was quite low. So he was only obliged to pay basically pennies.
[19:37] And what did your father do for a living?
[19:40] Uh he was and probably still is he's a welder blue collar welder so it's.
[19:47] So funny that he he's an expert at joining things together and breaking things apart.
[19:51] Okay yeah exactly yeah and oh one of the things that why he was pretty much absent through my teenage years and everything he uh started working um like um like oh.
[20:03] Long distance like.
[20:04] Long distance yeah you were doing uh all this uh prospecting and gold penning something like this up north okay uh and he was doing that that kind of thing for like you're staying a month and then month at home month at work like that.
[20:20] Okay yeah i did three months and three weeks but anyway okay all right so i've just it's amazing to me that without child support or alimony it's your mother could afford, an apartment, food, amenities, and daycare. It's daycare. I mean, I know maybe in your home country it's not that much.
[20:39] It's heavily subsidized. It's basically a government daycare. It was not costing almost anything. School is free.
[20:51] Yeah, all the responsible parents get taxed to pay for the daycare of the women who choose bad fathers. Okay. All right.
[20:57] Right, right.
[20:57] Okay, so were you living in an apartment at that time?
[21:02] Yeah, exactly. my my father i got this apartment from from his work basically and uh he just just uh left it to us and uh well transferred it's.
[21:16] Not like that i assume it was rented.
[21:18] No it was not rented it was so he.
[21:21] Got an apartment from his work like they gave him a whole apartment.
[21:25] Yeah in my home country it was more or less common for...
[21:31] I'm just surprised. I'm not saying it's just... I've never heard of that.
[21:34] But it's quite a perk. Exactly, exactly. It's basically a studio, a very small apartment, like basically one room. And we stayed in this one room throughout all my childhood.
[21:48] I didn't even have a space.
[21:49] Did you have...
[21:50] Yeah, you had no separate space of your own, right? Did your mother date at all after she left your father?
[21:55] Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. she did. She had streaks of long-term relationships for maybe five, six to seven years from one guy to another.
[22:13] Oh, and did these guys come to your little box room apartment?
[22:20] Yeah, but only for occasional visits. She was mostly She was going to their apartment.
[22:29] Okay, got it. Yeah, all right. So you never really had any relationship with these guys, I assume?
[22:37] Maybe except for one. There was one guy who was particularly nice to me, more or less, although he was also a drinker. But he was not a violent guy. And I stayed in his apartment for quite a while. He was doing, you know, some, he was tinkering with electronics a lot. So I was going there to, to, to do that as well and to play video games because I couldn't do this in my, in my, in my apartment.
[23:09] Okay. Yeah.
[23:11] That's that.
[23:11] Don't often appreciate the value of a good graphics card. Okay. Okay. And how, when she was out dating, and you said it was pretty soon after the divorce, when she's out dating, who's taking care of you? I mean, you're like five or six or seven?
[23:28] I don't think she she went out dating right after this i think she took some time, for a little bit she was i think she was single for you know some time i don't remember exactly when the you know the first boyfriend surfaced but uh even without you know the dating and everything she was still getting together with you know her friends her female friends her, I don't know co-workers she had a lot of friends from uh from her school basically yeah and I mean.
[24:05] Pretty people often don't even really feel alive unless they're being admired so she's got to go out with her friends so that she can get looks from guys and feel desired and yeah it's one of the minor curses of being attractive is you tend not to feel like you have much value unless you're being admired it's like like a work of art doesn't feel admired in the basement, right?
[24:24] Yeah, exactly, exactly. Not only that, all her, we can say boyfriends, were younger than her. So she divorced when she was in her mid-30s, I guess, maybe early 30s, mid-30s. And then she only dated guys, especially when she was getting close to 40, mostly guys younger than her.
[24:53] And for yeah and then there's this funny flip where then she but then they have to date guys older than that they are when they get into the late 40s early 50s then they they go from 10 years younger to 10 to 20 years older sometimes all right and.
[25:03] Well not in her case she was.
[25:05] Always dating the.
[25:06] Younger i i still don't remember i still do not understand what did you know all these guys uh found in her.
[25:14] Oh come on no you can't come on what do you mean i mean i'm happy I'm happy to hear your case, but what do you mean you're confused about what the men saw in her?
[25:25] I don't know. Let's say she's like 35 and there's a younger guy who's like 30. I mean, yeah, she looks 30. So it's not like she's like an older cougar or anything like that. But I mean, the quality of the boyfriends was even lower than my father.
[25:45] Hang on, sorry. I'm still trying to understand why. and obviously there could be a factor i'm missing but why is it confusing that your mom would provide value to younger men.
[26:00] That's a good question.
[26:02] Because you said, like, I had no idea what the guy saw in her or whatever. And I'm not trying to be picky, but I'm trying to figure out why there's a blind spot in this way. I mean, it's a common one, so don't feel bad. But I'm just, what do you mean?
[26:20] Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe there are perks.
[26:25] Well, what is it? I mean, they didn't love her for the quality of her personality, right? They didn't love her for her youth and fertility. They didn't love her because they admired her character. Of course, as I said, they didn't love her because they wanted to be a wonderful stepfather to you. So why did they date her?
[26:46] I don't know. I guess it would be sexual access.
[26:52] Yeah. I mean, not just sexual access, but looks and status, right? So she's a good-looking woman.
[26:57] That's right.
[26:58] Then the men experience higher status by being out in public with her especially if she looks younger that's.
[27:10] Right but i mean there was a lot of women around who were you know just as good looking and younger i mean i don't know it's just uh.
[27:20] Well okay so let's let's work through that So there were women around who were good-looking and younger. Well, again, the man in particular cares if he's not interested in starting a family at that point, which a lot of young men aren't that interested in that, right? Then a man is interested in sex, looks, and status.
[27:41] Okay. Okay.
[27:43] And so obviously she offered up sex. She was good looking and she improved the man's status and she wasn't pressuring the men to marry and have kids because she was too old. Like an older woman is not going to pressure a younger man for marriage and kids. She might pressure him for marriage maybe, but not for kids because she's, you know, kind of passed her peak that way, right? She's already to geriatric pregnancy land, right?
[28:08] Exactly.
[28:09] So if you're just looking for a fun time that's high status with sex, how does your mom, I'm sorry to be so frank about your mom, right? But how does your mom not fit that bill?
[28:20] No, I think you're absolutely right. You're right. No way. And she was specifically, right after the divorce, she was specifically set basically in her tracks in a way that she said it was, I only want to have one child, one husband in my life. I'm not going to ever, I'm not getting married in my life ever. And not only that, she did not even want to live with a man. she was just she had this peculiarity about her she was, I don't know she was not feeling okay living with a man constantly like a husband and wife yeah okay I get it so.
[29:15] That's even more attractive for young men right.
[29:17] She wanted to only to live by herself Right.
[29:23] So as I said, that's even more attractive to a young man who's just looking for sex, looks and status, right? Because he's not going to get pulled into some commitment requirement, right? And he maybe doesn't feel guilty about wasting a younger woman's fertility if he doesn't want to settle down, right?
[29:38] Oh, yeah. In this case, you're right. You're right.
[29:42] Okay. So you said, but you said she had some longer relationships, right? Six or seven years?
[29:46] Yeah yeah she was uh like a serial dater or whatever what's the word for this.
[29:56] Uh serial monogamist.
[29:58] Monogamist yeah what.
[29:59] Do you know why the relationships ended.
[30:05] Um it's it's not funny and funny at the same time but one two two guys that I remember who was like seven both seven years they died, um that's why the relationship has ended uh these.
[30:24] Are younger guys.
[30:25] Well yeah i'm not sure about the first one was he really younger but i think so so the first one has he just died because of i guess because of the drinking issue and the second one died because he had an accident in his job he was a construction worker, and she had a dark joke about her, she said that she's like a black widow, because old men that could stay with her for seven years or more would, die somehow, because my father got away, she said, because they've been together for a little bit less than seven years then the guy for seven years yeah he died then another one he died after seven years um yeah and the other ones was a little less and they didn't die i'm sorry i'm just uh uh yeah this this is all very disconcerting i'm sorry for for laughing at this yeah.
[31:30] It's kind of tough to make jokes about men you're supposed to really care about and love but okay i mean i I get that's her personality. Okay. Okay. So when you were a kid, did you have much access to socializing too, like playing with other kids in the apartment building?
[31:48] Yeah, absolutely. We didn't have any issues with that. It was, I think you were talking about your childhood a lot. Like it's a free roaming childhood. We had something similar. You can always go out of your apartment building and there's always like five, ten kids around to play with. And yeah, that's what we do. I played a lot out on the streets. Well, not on the streets, near the apartment building.
[32:21] Yeah, I'm a smart guy. I know you're not playing on the road. Okay. All right. so did you have any access to any extended family or anything like that.
[32:30] Uh yeah i because we um i got sent to my grandparents the her grandparents uh it's sorry her.
[32:42] Grandparents or your grandparents.
[32:43] Sorry my grandparents her parents okay got it you know so uh it was very um like, customary especially in my in my home country to for parents to send their kids through the whole summer or like a month or two or so to their grand grandparents especially when they live in they.
[33:04] Live in i always think that's in the country but where was that.
[33:06] It was a very small town uh, And, uh, I, well, when I'm, when I'm saying I'm from the small town, it's like a hundred K people and their town was like 15,000 people, maybe. Yeah. Very undeveloped. Um, I was, uh, I, I did not like it because I had to stay, um, in the apartment for the most part, because every time I tried to go outside to play, to, to play, or even to just walk down the street i got um i would get harassed i would get sometimes i got robbed you just you know.
[33:47] Sorry harassed why do i think gypsies no what do you mean exactly.
[33:51] Exactly imagine gypsies but you know it's just different nationality so it's it.
[33:56] Was it.
[33:57] Was just a jungle basically.
[33:59] Yeah i had a summer once uh i had a summer when my brother went back to england my mother went to germany and i ended up staying with a friend of mine's grandparents i didn't know them and the woman was dying and it was just this really dour summer of like depression and uh yeah it's just like yeah get out right um okay so let's get to the negative things that happened with your mother after the divorce you said that she took over the beatings after a while yeah.
[34:28] Yeah and um I still remember some of them and I don't remember anything of my father because I was, I guess, quite young, but before, since it was after I was six onwards until maybe I was about 14, 15, this I remember very clearly. So I remember spanking, beating, implements, just hands. And should I tell you about specific occasions?
[35:06] Whatever is on your mind, it's usually good to share. Sometimes we don't know what the sharing is for until later. So if it's popping up in your mind, it's usually good to share.
[35:14] Okay, so one of the first things that I kind of remember, which was very severe at the time when I was thinking great too so it's I was about six or seven seven maybe even eight I I punched my my classmate in school and I don't know in in my in my country you get the like a note from the teacher that you did something wrong and it's sent to your to your parents and it's a it's a it's terrible for for kids because normally the the parents just take teacher's side and they just, the kids basically got in trouble for those notes for those basically bad grades for the behavior, so it was my first time that i got you know in trouble like this uh yeah i punched my my classmate absolutely um absolutely um in a in a bad matter so it was it was my fault i'm what.
[36:24] Uh what were the circumstances if you remember.
[36:26] I was it was terrible it was um so basically, we were waiting for the teacher to come um and the class was about to start and everybody it's customary for for the kids to uh to stand up before the teacher when they come into the class and everybody would just you know stand up and after the teacher didn't show up everybody just sat down and to their desks and one guy one guy like a very silent um, a very quiet guy and for some reason he just remained um standing and uh everybody would just tell him like hey hey hey sit down sit down sit down don't worry about it sit down, and um i just came up to him and i just punched him and not i'm just not punched him I punched him in a groin so he was he was he was terrible I still don't remember where and is that.
[37:27] Because you might get punished collectively if the teacher came in and nobody was standing no.
[37:35] No, not really, because everybody was sitting. And I think I just wanted to, I don't know, show off or just to, I don't know, maybe because there was some kind of bullying in me that I wanted to, like a crab in a bucket. You know, like, hey, you got to fit in or something like that. So it was terrible for me on my side. So I did this. He just, he bent over. He didn't, you know, respond in any way. The teacher came in and there was one girl who told like, hey, this guy, which meaning me, he punched this guy. And the teacher asked like, is this true? Everybody said, yeah, that's true. I got the note with a bad grade for behavior. And it was sent to my mom.
[38:31] And this is what happened. So after my mom found out about the situation, she was screaming for like a couple of hours. And she beat me for this.
[38:50] It still bothers me to this day, especially when I'm thinking about this now. So I punched a guy. And because of this, I got punched myself. And who's going to punch her? That's what I'm still thinking. And this is what I ask her later on. Like, what's the logic behind this? So this was one of the first things that I can remember. Does it make sense?
[39:25] It does. And I'm trying to sort of figure out or sort out why you went for the groin.
[39:31] Yeah.
[39:34] Why did I go for, that's very dishonorable, right?
[39:37] Yeah, but this is what, you know, I think this was kind of normal back then.
[39:42] Hang on, hang on. Was it a sucker punch? Did he know you were coming to hit him?
[39:47] I just squared up. It was face to face. It was not a sucker punch.
[39:50] Well, no, but did he know you were going to hit him?
[39:53] No, I did not say anything.
[39:55] So you sucker punched him in the balls.
[39:57] Yeah, that's right.
[40:01] Okay. And you said seven or eight?
[40:05] Maybe no more than seven or eight.
[40:08] Okay. So why do you think you did that? That's not a fair fight, right?
[40:16] No, no. And he was very like a quiet small guy.
[40:20] Oh, you picked on the little guy.
[40:22] Exactly. Exactly. It's terrible.
[40:25] Well, I mean, you've said that a couple of times. And I mean, we can do all we want as far as moralizing decades ago. but i i'm just more curious the judgment stuff is i mean it's i'm curious.
[40:38] What the motivation was i mean i.
[40:41] Think i know uh but but i'm just curious what you think i mean your your thoughts are more important than mine in regards to your behavior.
[40:48] I was thinking about this and as i said before it was either to uh to be like a like a crab in a bucket like hey you you got to fit in what are you doing bro and uh the second no because no.
[41:02] That doesn't that doesn't require that you suck a punch someone in the balls.
[41:06] Yeah you're right maybe you're right and this the second one was just i tried to show off maybe i just did it in a bad manner okay.
[41:18] What do you mean by show off.
[41:20] So I feel like I can you know, how do you know that if you're if you're just if you're capable of violence and you can you know you know, Make a guy do whatever you want.
[41:37] No, but sucker punching a little kid in the balls is not a status thing.
[41:43] Exactly. But I was, I don't know, maybe it was just done in a bad way.
[41:48] No, you're just being your dad.
[41:49] Really?
[41:50] Yeah, you're just being your father.
[41:52] Okay.
[41:53] Well, because your father was sexually successful by punching a little kid.
[42:00] Okay.
[42:01] Right? I mean, your mother married him and had children with him. so we do what our parents do because there are a template for sexual success and our genes say do what you do what your father does so you were trying to i assume you had like most kids who come and if i'm wrong tell me but most kids who come from very chaotic and violent households, have uh sexual thoughts before puberty and and significant sexual thoughts before puberty, and so you were trying to be attractive to the girls by doing what your father did to you because that attracted your mother?
[42:33] Well, yeah, it sounds absolutely fair. Absolutely fair, to be honest with you.
[42:40] And this kid couldn't fight back any more than you could fight back with your father?
[42:46] I think we were... Yeah, I think I was a little bit.
[42:50] You know... You said he was a small, quiet boy.
[42:54] Exactly, exactly.
[42:55] And he certainly can't fight back if you sucker punch him in the balls.
[43:01] I wouldn't say that i i punched it directly right there but in this region yeah in this region all.
[43:07] Right you really want to nitpick about how close you.
[43:09] Were i'm sorry i just remember him bending over and just.
[43:13] Well you you hit.
[43:14] The top yeah i guess i guess you're right so.
[43:18] Humiliating smaller and weaker children humiliating and attacking smaller and weaker people is sexually desirable to the females. So, this was, in my view, a mating display for the females to say, I'm like my mother, sorry, I'm like my father who got my mother.
[43:44] Can you please explain this? Since it happened after the divorce, how can this...
[43:50] No, but the template is still there. Your father reproduced sexually, and our genes tell us to do what works in terms of reproduction. And if your father reproduced and made you, then you have to do what your father does in order to reproduce and make another one.
[44:08] So you're saying it was mostly, I got a template. It was mostly unconscious.
[44:15] Yeah, this was a mating display for the females around, which is to say, I'm like my father, who by definition was sexually successful, got to reproduce. So if this is what the women like, if this is what the females of my society like, then I'm showing that I'm that. Because you would assume that the girls were raised by men similar to your father and therefore violent and abusive men are what women like so i'm going to show my attractive side by being like my father yeah.
[44:55] It was very normal back then.
[44:57] Right in.
[44:58] A way i mean it was even in the conversation between boys we um it was customary to uh in normal to say hey you know this guy can you can you beat him.
[45:14] Yes like that old joke of like uh my dad could beat up your dad the other kid says really what would that cost me.
[45:19] Yeah okay so yeah that that was that was bad.
[45:23] All right so so i mean you can say you know as you did a couple of times oh that's horrible oh i was so bad i was so wrong And yeah, I get that. I mean, if you'd punched my son in that way, I'd be having some conversations with your parents. But just judging it as sort of bad or wrong doesn't get you to understand that.
[45:47] Everything that you know led to this.
[45:49] Yeah the drove that caused it and the reason i'm saying that is is i think i know what's going on with your wife and your mom but i i want to get there to to gather information because i don't want to be you know premature in in my explanation uh if it's wrong right okay so um your how how often would your mother assault you it.
[46:13] Was very occasional but it was pretty massive in the way it manifested. So maybe because I mostly remember the biggest one, that's why I could say that it was not like regular, regular. It was one of her arguments when I confronted her and I said, why did you beat me in this situation or in this situation or this situation? she just pushed back with oh I wasn't really beating you like every day what are you talking about so that's her argument so how.
[46:54] Often would it happen.
[46:57] I remember I don't know maybe once every couple of months because okay so a couple of times.
[47:04] A year and what about yelling verbal intimidation maybe name calling.
[47:11] I don't remember name calling, but yeah, yelling and intimidation was very, very regular.
[47:19] And how often might that happen?
[47:23] It was, yeah, and every time you ask this in the calling shows, I'm just baffled.
[47:32] I mean, you know, just roughly, it doesn't need to be, you know, a couple of times a year for the sort of savage beatings. Was it a couple of times a month or a couple of times a week?
[47:41] At least a couple of times a month, yeah, I would say. A couple of times a month.
[47:44] Okay, so maybe three or four times a month for screaming or yelling, and then three or four times a year for the beatings. Is that right?
[47:55] Yes, yes, I think so.
[47:57] Okay, and what would happen the rest of the times that your mother disagreed with what you were doing or wanted to change your behavior?
[48:08] To change my behavior? I think I got into a habit of lying very quickly so I could get away with, you know, most of the things.
[48:21] Oh gosh, you are so self-critical, man.
[48:24] Uh, yeah, I am, but I'm not, I'm not in this case, in this case, I'm not condemning myself for lying. In this case, I would say I was just surviving the situation.
[48:34] Okay, good. Yeah. As long as we're on the same page as far as that goes. Okay.
[48:37] No, know it was totally uh survival i'm not condemning myself for this yeah because if.
[48:42] You uh if you told the truth to your mother you might get a beating that could be very dangerous.
[48:46] Yeah that's right that's right so uh i just try to to navigate to lie if i if i need to or just not to tell the truth and that was that was it.
[49:02] Yeah. I mean, when you say you got into a habit, that sounds like it's voluntary. You know, if you say I was forced to lie in order to survive, that's a different matter, right? It's the language that you use that gave me the moral condemnation side. I got into this habit of lying. Like I would, you know, there were just cigarettes lying all over town and I decided to start smoking them of my own volition. It's like, no, you were forced to lie in order to survive.
[49:27] Okay. Yeah. Sounds fair.
[49:29] Lying was required to live.
[49:32] Oh yeah at least.
[49:33] The price of breathing was lying you know i mean but but i i chose i got into this habit of lying just sounds like it's it's something like it's a car you were driving or something no.
[49:42] No it was not like that it was for you know for the survival at least not for survival or for just you.
[49:49] Know no no for survival i'm not kidding about this because when you get beaten really hard you never know what's going to happen right a nail could go into your eyeball like your mother's nail, you might, you might stagger backwards, trip and, and bash your head against the edge of a counter or a table in the kitchen, right? Like, like you don't know, and you don't know if your mom's just going to suddenly completely lose her shit and just beat you senseless and maybe give you brain damage, right? So it is survival because you don't know how far things are going to go. All you know is she's five times your size and it seems like completely out of control.
[50:26] Okay. Yeah.
[50:28] Now, in hindsight, you say, the odds of that were low, but you can't risk that shit when you're a kid. How crazy can she get? You can't risk that as a kid. A child interprets all violence as a potential death threat. Because I mean, throughout human history, it often was. And I don't mean a direct death threat, but you know, I mean, accidental, or maybe your parent just doesn't like you and doesn't really feed you much or doesn't take care of you, or maybe leaves you behind a little bit, or doesn't have you near the fire. Like, so it's survival. Yes. I mean, you could say, well, but she wasn't going to kill me. And it's like, but your genes don't know that.
[51:09] Well, unconsciously, I was definitely, you know, acting in this way. That's for sure.
[51:14] Listen, when I was a little kid and my mom was beating my head against a steel door, I wasn't like, oh, she's, you know, she's going to stop any moment. I'm sure I'm fine. It was like, no, I went completely limp to signal complete submission because that's what your genes do.
[51:28] That's horrible.
[51:30] Well, but that's survival. And so when I say survival, I'm not kidding. Our genes don't know about, like, I don't know, modern child protective services or legal issues or, like, our genes are just like, well, if someone five or ten times my size is beating the crap out of me, I'm going to prepare for death and do whatever it takes to survive. and I'm not going to cross my fingers and hope that it de-escalates somehow because the odds are... It's not worth the risk, if that makes sense.
[52:03] Yeah, totally makes sense. So that was the situation, basically.
[52:08] Okay. And how did things go when you hit puberty and got bigger? Did she magically find self-restraint or what happened with her violence?
[52:17] Well, it got a little bit... Well, it got... It got less and less and less, obviously. But again, this is because I started to just avoid it a lot of times. Because when you're little, you're not that smart or you're just getting in trouble more. And when you're growing up, you know how to lie, to not tell the truth, or to just avoid the situations that might get you in trouble. And yeah, so everything got less and less. but it was still a thing and every time I think about this I'm thinking like why I did not fly back she was still I think hitting me when I was like 14, 15 and I was already like a big guy, I don't know, I was like one of those, there's a story about the elephant, I think you even told this, that God, when he's little, and he just got attached to a little pole that he cannot get away from, and he gets bigger, bigger, bigger, but he just got into a habit, as I've said, that she cannot get away from this leash, from this little pole. so i was just um i was just.
[53:38] Sorry are you are you uh frustrated with yourself for not fighting back.
[53:44] Yes in a way i know that you you're going to mention that yes it's not as as long as i was under her care i couldn't really do it do this because if she.
[53:55] But i'm trying to understand why you're frustrated if you know that why are you frustrated it's like you're saying well why why on earth didn't i walk three days out of the womb it's like because you're a baby you can't walk, i'm trying to and i'm you know i say this with due sympathy and curiosity i'm trying to figure out why you're frustrated okay let's play it out so let's say she's she's hitting you and what do you mean by fighting back what are you what are you referring to i.
[54:21] Don't know just just pushing pushing back and just you know pushing her back against the wall and i know hitting her in the face.
[54:28] Okay so then she then she grabs a rolling pin or something and and escalates her attack then what.
[54:34] Oh that's a good question i don't know maybe i can get some something i would i think i would just run away and this is this is terrifying just.
[54:44] To think about it between you and the door and she's got a rolling pin and she's escalating and she's swinging at you and she might bash her brains in what then.
[54:57] I don't know. It sounds scary.
[54:59] Okay. What if you push her, she staggers backward, bangs her head against the wall, and then calls the police?
[55:08] No, this will never happen. This never happens. Why is that? Because it never happens in my home country.
[55:16] Women never call the police if they're being assaulted?
[55:19] By their kids? No.
[55:21] No, no. No, you're not a kid. You're 15. And you're bigger than her, right? So you're saying that women never call the police and never complain about assault if they're being attacked.
[55:31] I would say it was not very customary.
[55:35] How would you know?
[55:39] How would I know?
[55:41] Maybe you've got a good reason to know. Maybe you've got your best friend is a police officer who's told you this, even though that would be limited information. But how would you know if women never call the cops on their adult or they're almost adult sons who are bigger than them who are, quote, assaulting them.
[55:59] You're right. I have, I've had no knowledge of this, but at the same time, I didn't know that, you know, it was a thing. I've never heard of this.
[56:07] Sorry, you didn't know what was a thing?
[56:10] That, you know, a woman can do this. A mother can do this.
[56:13] My mother called the cops on me. And I'm not trying to say that, you know, they're the same person. I'm just saying that that's what happened with me.
[56:19] But that's crazy. if you say so.
[56:22] Sorry, why is that crazy? Help me understand. When women face physical danger, who do they reach for?
[56:35] For the powers that be, I guess.
[56:37] Yeah, they were men, older brothers, fathers, uncles, big friends, the police, right?
[56:45] I mean, yeah, this is, if this woman, let's say, your mother would be my daughter or my sister. Of course, I would want her to call the cops protection, call the neighbors and anything like that.
[57:02] So your mother, let's say she calls the police, right? And the police show up and she shows them the big, what do they call it? The goose egg, right? The big lump that might be bleeding on the back of her head where her head hit the wall. She shows the dent in the wall and she says, he assaulted me for no reason.
[57:23] Uh, what would happen in this case?
[57:25] Yeah, what then?
[57:27] I think, no, because...
[57:31] Come on, who do the cops go with? Who do the cops always believe? The crying mother or the surly teenage boy?
[57:40] I know, you want to say that.
[57:42] Don't even try, you know the answer to this one.
[57:44] I know, I know, I know where you're getting to.
[57:47] Cops are the ultimate simp white knights with these kinds of situations almost always.
[57:53] And Stefan, seriously, if you just knew how many such assaults happened in my childhood with just people around me. I get it.
[58:04] I'm talking about your mother calling the cops. I'm not saying it was 100%. I'm not even saying it was 50%. But what happens if she says my son assaulted me for no reason, I simply asked him to tidy up a little, I asked him to do the dishes, I asked him to finish his homework, and he just threw me against the wall. I'm terrified I'm frightened he could have killed me right.
[58:27] Well obviously they would believe her but I think she would be just she would get scared of the cops in this situation and why, because it was basically unheard of to call the cops in such situation you.
[58:43] Hadn't heard of it that.
[58:45] Doesn't that's right impossible that's right that's right that is right okay so what happens then.
[58:54] You're a big kid. You're almost a young man. And your crying mother is saying that you assaulted her just because she asked you to tidy up a little. And then what? What do the cops do?
[59:07] I think we're both just getting our talking to and that's it.
[59:11] Maybe.
[59:11] Maybe not.
[59:15] Maybe they take you down to the station to talk to you some more and scare you.
[59:20] That's that's that's that's a possibility yes maybe.
[59:23] You get charged as a juvenile and you have to go to juvie juvenile detention.
[59:28] Yeah but this would be very bad for her isn't it.
[59:34] No because nobody would blame her she's the victim she's the mother.
[59:38] But i am listen i had something similar happened to me I got arrested once when I was exactly like 14 when I was 14 not for assaulting anybody I got arrested for, for basically breaking glass in the in the building very close to our apartment building I did not know that it could get this serious we were just you know, Uh, it was just, uh, you know, boys being, being boys in a way we were, we were.
[1:00:18] Okay. Please, please God get to the story.
[1:00:20] Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's just, uh, uh, so the thing is.
[1:00:24] You got arrested for.
[1:00:25] I got arrested.
[1:00:26] When you were 14 and then what?
[1:00:27] And then what? Yeah. So, uh, and then I got arrested. I got detained for, for, you know, for hours and hours, almost for, for the whole day. And when my mom got.
[1:00:37] And you didn't know what was going to happen.
[1:00:40] Yeah. Absolutely. Because 14.
[1:00:42] It's terrifying.
[1:00:43] Is the age of, you know, legal responsibility.
[1:00:47] Right. I won't get into a long story, but a friend of mine was shoplifting and I didn't know it and he got caught and I was called his lookout and we got dragged off to the cop station for the day. And yeah, it's pretty alarming, right?
[1:01:01] Yeah, it was super terrible.
[1:01:02] So you know that you get dragged down to the cop station, to the police station, to the cop shop, and you're even older. So you're at the age of legal responsibility and you assaulted your mother.
[1:01:18] Yeah, but at the same time, in that story, she was terrified of me being sent to juvenile or whatever. She was super terrified. She put her all that she could to get me out of this situation because it was really bad for her. if I were...
[1:01:42] Right, but that's because she wasn't in any physical danger.
[1:01:45] That's correct.
[1:01:46] You broke the window, you didn't hit her head against the wall by accident, by whatever pushing. So, listen, I don't know how it would play out. Obviously, you know a lot better how it might play out, but you don't know for sure. And that's my point. Why didn't you fight back? Because nobody was on your side. And you know that if it push comes to the shove, the cops are going to side with your mother and take you in.
[1:02:17] Okay.
[1:02:18] So that's why you didn't fight back.
[1:02:23] All right.
[1:02:25] And I'm glad you didn't.
[1:02:26] Yeah, me too. But I'm still...
[1:02:29] Why none of us fight back because the entire system is rigged against us. You know, when my mom called the cops on me, I was like, I don't know, 13 or 14. And it wasn't because I was violent. And it's just basically because I was yelling at her and wouldn't listen. And the cops gave me a big lecture. Well, we have a generation gap here sometimes, son. They didn't talk to her. They didn't say what kind of weird-ass parenting is going on here. They didn't call for any evaluation. They didn't ask me what the problems were. You know, the fact that she's violent and insane didn't matter. I got the lecture. And again, obviously, it's different countries, different situations, different circumstances, and so on. But it's a possibility, even in your country.
[1:03:15] That's correct.
[1:03:16] That's right and what happens if you get known as the guy who punched or beat up his own mother.
[1:03:25] Well that's a stain on reputation.
[1:03:27] Oh are women going to want to date you, really right i don't think so it harms your future it harms your future dating prospects or your current dating prospects yeah and remember we're geared to reproduce above all else sorry go No.
[1:03:45] Not only that, I was, if I were to get into that kind of trouble, I could get, you know, separated from her. And if I get, you know, somewhere to some kind of center, yeah, I could get like in a downward spiral very, very quickly.
[1:04:03] There are a lot of creepy people hanging around the old, uh, yeah, we'll take them in for a couple of weeks. All right. The whole, the whole, uh, foster care system. I'm sure there's some honorable people in it, but I think we've all seen the data and we sure as hell have all heard the stories, or at least I have. So, uh, better the devil, you know, right. Then the devil, you don't. So I don't understand why you're like, I don't know why I didn't fight back.
[1:04:34] I mean, yeah, that's right, but I'm still frustrated Yeah, it's just Okay, sorry.
[1:04:38] But frustrated at what? The circumstances, the situation, the cops Your mother, or your poor-ass, helpless 15-year-old self?
[1:04:46] Everything, everything, that I was No.
[1:04:47] No, you were frustrated at yourself At myself? Yeah, why didn't I fight back? Uh, yes Because you can't win The whole system is rigged So the kids can't win.
[1:05:05] That is totally right.
[1:05:06] Step into that boxing arena with both of my hands tied behind my back. Well, because you can't win.
[1:05:13] Mm-hmm. Right.
[1:05:16] I try not to get engaged in battles where I can't win. That's called wisdom. And I'm glad you had it.
[1:05:26] Well, you're right. You're right.
[1:05:29] So, don't assume that there was something wrong with the decisions you made, in a situation of coercion and subjugation. Why didn't I fight back against those prison guards? Well, because they beat your ass. That's why. And they can lock you in a cage with no food, right?
[1:05:50] Well, seriously, when you're putting this this way, because in my head, it was just like I'm fighting back and she just stops doing that. Yeah.
[1:06:00] Yeah.
[1:06:01] But it can get really ugly. You're right.
[1:06:03] Well, it can really escalate. And here's the other thing too. You're trapped in a tiny box room with someone who's really pissed at you, have shown themselves capable of violence at some point, and you got to sleep sometime.
[1:06:17] Oh no, just don't tell me this. I remember this story.
[1:06:20] No, I'm telling you this because it's true.
[1:06:22] Ugh.
[1:06:23] This is what my friend's grandmother told me.
[1:06:26] Yeah, yeah, I remember this story.
[1:06:27] Right? You got to sleep sometime, kid.
[1:06:29] Oh no, it's just, ugh.
[1:06:32] And she did. She hit him with a tea tray when he was napping. So, yeah, why? She's already shown herself capable of great violence, beatings. Why would you want to get involved in a physical altercation system or situation or in perpetuity with somebody you've got to sleep right next to? oh no thanks yeah.
[1:07:05] You're right you're right.
[1:07:06] Have some have some respect for your younger self bro, i'm trying to get you out there alive and unharmed at least physically right yeah absolutely which is the best he could do you didn't lose an eye you didn't go to jail you didn't uh you know beat up your mom you didn't you're right i mean he got you out of he navigated that shit almost flawlessly have some respect bro okay.
[1:07:32] Okay that sounds uplifting thank you good.
[1:07:35] Good all right okay so when did you start dating.
[1:07:41] Uh, I think it only happened when I actually moved out of my small town because it was absolutely not possible there. I feel like I'm in a shell.
[1:07:54] Sorry, bro. I hate to fight with you the whole call, but what the hell do you, what do you mean it's not possible? Oh, because you were living with your mom?
[1:08:01] I was i was too i was too ashamed to do that because when you're when you're in a small town and everybody knows each other i mean you do one simple like one small mistake and then, everybody knows about this so i will and i i had no idea how to do that no one no one sorry.
[1:08:19] No idea how to do what how to date.
[1:08:21] Without other people knowing no no not like this how to do this properly how.
[1:08:27] To do what properly.
[1:08:28] How to date how to you know talk to girls and all this stuff.
[1:08:33] Okay so you didn't you didn't know how to talk to girls.
[1:08:35] I didn't know anything about this i mean so.
[1:08:39] I'm trying to get specifics and then you say something like i didn't know anything about this it just is does this mean talk does that refer to talk to talk to girls.
[1:08:47] Exactly and understand that I was in school the whole time I was there. It was very unusual for teenagers to date in my hometown. It was very unusual. Everybody would mostly focus on studies in this age. The people who dated, it was very, very occasional. I barely knew anyone who could pull it off. It was not like...
[1:09:19] Was that because of religious reasons or other reasons?
[1:09:23] No, it was totally secular. I think... I don't know. It was just the age when people would start to do that. It was at least when they would go to university at least or to any kind.
[1:09:40] Sorry. Come on. Okay. How old are you?
[1:09:43] I'm 37 now.
[1:09:44] 37 years old. Okay. Do you remember what it was like 20 years ago when you were a hormone-crazed teenager?
[1:09:51] Yeah, I know. I still remember that.
[1:09:53] What happened to everyone's sex? Was it just masturbation culture? Like what happened to everyone's sex drive?
[1:10:00] I think, yeah, I think so. But it's a good question, by the way. Maybe it was just we could.
[1:10:11] I mean, that's why God and nature gives us these crazy hormones so that we can overcome the fear of rejection, right?
[1:10:18] Yeah, that's right. but i i think i i just poured all my energies into studies because it was the only.
[1:10:23] But everyone did that's that's my question like what happened to everyone's i mean how was it all overcome what happened to everyone's sex drive the people are like yeah i can wait till my late 20s to date date even uh.
[1:10:37] Yes like not not to to 20s but i mean.
[1:10:41] 18 i said 18 sorry did i say late 20s i I meant late teens, if I didn't say that.
[1:10:45] Okay, okay, sorry. So yeah, it's 18 and up. Before that, when you're in school, it was very unusual to have people dating, seriously. It was like that, basically, in my social circle, at least.
[1:11:01] Okay, and just so, again, I'm sorry to be repetitive, but I'm still not sure why. How did some factor overcome raging teenage hormones?
[1:11:16] And i'm not sure if i understood the question properly.
[1:11:20] In my okay my case or general got the um you've got a geyser and you've got a lit right a geyser is this massive eruption a volcano right you've got a volcano and you've got a cap on the volcano now one of the biggest volcanoes of all, is male teenage sexual hormones right, So what put a lid on that volcano so that it didn't manifest, at least in dating? Because you're dying to date girls, you're dying to have sex, all this sort of stuff, right? I mean, it's funny because it's almost like one day to the next. One day, girls are just irritating people who slow down your sports games, and the next thing, you're just girl crazy, and all you can think about is that, right? And so, I guess my question is, what social factor was it, or what X factor was it, that managed to kill acting on these kinds of drives? And I don't necessarily mean sex, but, you know, at least dating.
[1:12:17] Yeah, but I think for me, when I remember myself, I was, if I liked a girl that I knew of, it was mostly like, it was romantic, I would say. It was not like in any kind of like a flesh, sexual kind of way.
[1:12:44] Romantic is sexual. Yeah. If you're married and you go to your wife and you say, I've developed romantic interest in someone else, would she say that's good or bad?
[1:12:55] I guess it's good.
[1:12:58] Let me try this again. You go to your wife and you say, I've developed romantic feelings or a romantic interest in another woman.
[1:13:06] Oh, yeah. I didn't understand the question. No, it's terrible.
[1:13:10] No, no, no. So whereas if you say, hey, I really like this guy I met, I think we'll be friends. She wouldn't be bothered, right?
[1:13:17] Yeah. Okay.
[1:13:19] So romantic is sexual. So if you have romantic interest in a girl, it means you have sexual interest in a girl. And I'm not saying romantic is only sexual, but it's based on sexuality.
[1:13:35] Yeah, that's right. That's right.
[1:13:36] Okay. So you're sexually attracted to a girl. And none of this is a criticism. This is just pure anthropological curiosity. I think it's important, but we'll figure it out as we go. So you're sexually attracted to a girl. What's the earliest age that you remember that happening?
[1:13:56] I'm not sure if I can say sexually attracted, but I think I first kissed when I was six. Okay.
[1:14:05] So six. Six to 18 is a dozen years, right? So how is it that you're, let's just say, romantic interest in girls, and let's just say, I don't know, 13 to 18, it's just half a decade, right? so how is it for half a decade you don't ask a girl out given that your hormones are screaming at you to start talking to girls and asking them out what's the counterweight what's the counter pressure i.
[1:14:39] Was just studying all the time.
[1:14:41] Oh come on man seriously.
[1:14:44] It was that bad.
[1:14:45] What are you an entire continent of nerds exactly i could ask a girl out but i think i'll study instead it no.
[1:14:53] No no i was.
[1:14:53] No that's not it that's not it what what what what is it.
[1:14:56] I don't know a shame i just fear of rejections and.
[1:15:01] No no no fear of rejection is taken care of by the hormones because you're mad with lust and that helps you to overcome your fear of rejection.
[1:15:12] I don't know.
[1:15:12] All men or everybody it's funny you know like every man, goes through this phase where they think that they're somehow special because they fear rejection from girls every man feels fear of rejection from girls because if you're not being rejected by girls you're not aiming high enough that's correct right so fear of being rejected by girls is natural and common to every male so it's not that, What is it that kept just about every male from dating in their teens?
[1:16:02] Do you ever know of these stories when, you know, if I remember then, if there was a couple or, I don't know, a guy or a girl or a guy who would just, you know, make a move or anything, just because it was like a small town situation, everybody would be just, you know, making fun of this. Okay.
[1:16:25] Everybody, everybody who makes a move gets made fun of.
[1:16:28] Oh, that's, that was very, very, very normal.
[1:16:32] Every guy who makes a move gets made fun of. That's also, and that's basic sexual competition, right? Because we want to punish guys who make moves because if they make moves, they might get the best women. So we want to discourage them from making moves until we're ready or whatever it is, right? So every male gets mocked for making moves.
[1:16:54] But people would get mocked, like, basically from women and, uh, from, from girls and boys.
[1:17:03] Okay.
[1:17:03] Basically, bilaterally.
[1:17:06] Okay. And?
[1:17:09] And?
[1:17:09] Why would that, why would that, why would that stop you from making moves? Because again, you've got these crazy hormones, right?
[1:17:18] When you say i i got those crazy hormones i still cannot really put myself into this category because i was you know such a nerd.
[1:17:26] Okay are you saying that nerds don't feel sexual lust well.
[1:17:32] I i mean i did but not to the point to.
[1:17:36] Actually fear of women, and how how strong were the men in your country how much authority did they have were they respected as quote patriarchs or leaders of the family or or anything like that were they generally respected in your culture you.
[1:17:59] Know it's very patriarchal culture.
[1:18:02] Okay fantastic i appreciate that and maybe that's a correction to what it is that i'm saying in which case of course i will adjust my theory okay so if it's a very patriarchal culture why did your mother divorce your father.
[1:18:20] Hmm. Maybe it's because it was not like a patriarchal in a way, like you would think about this, like father's rule and, you know, the dad knows best. Okay.
[1:18:34] But if you're using the word patriarchy and then you're saying, well, it's not in the way that you would think it is, then you're kind of screwing with my head.
[1:18:41] Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Okay.
[1:18:43] I want you to go left and you, you know, and then you turn left and I said, well, I didn't mean left in that sense. you'd be like why did you use the word left if you didn't mean it.
[1:18:53] Okay let's let's define um the patriarchy i guess or.
[1:18:59] Patriarchy is the men get respect and are largely in charge of the majority of important decisions in the household that's.
[1:19:11] That's more like it yes.
[1:19:15] Okay so you're saying that the you said that the men drank a lot right yeah.
[1:19:20] It was a lot of drinking.
[1:19:22] Okay so if the men drank a lot did the women give them a lot of respect no absolutely right and we don't know which came first did the men drink because they didn't get respect or did the women not respect them because they drank doesn't really matter but this is what you saw you saw growing up who was in charge who.
[1:19:42] Was in charge, do i have two options men or women or.
[1:19:49] Yeah who.
[1:19:51] Was in charge.
[1:19:52] When let's just talk about your experience, You were given to your mother. She was in charge.
[1:20:02] She was in charge.
[1:20:02] Your mother, this is why earlier, this is why earlier you said they split up and I said, no, your mother divorced your father, right?
[1:20:09] That's correct.
[1:20:10] Right. So your mother was in charge of the divorce and she was in charge of you after the divorce, right?
[1:20:22] Yeah. Total custody.
[1:20:23] She dated younger men for the most part, right?
[1:20:27] Yes.
[1:20:27] Okay even as she got older so she was in charge right so right did you have uh did you have a lot of female teachers when you were growing up when you were young i don't mean in high school like like in primary school sort of grades one to six yeah.
[1:20:48] It's normal situation 99.
[1:20:49] So so the i assume a significant majority if not all your teachers were female right yeah.
[1:20:56] Except for like Like PE class, maybe the arts and crafts.
[1:20:59] Yeah, but I mean, the majority of your teachers, I don't know that PE is really teaching, but you know that old saying, if you can't do teach, if you can't teach, teach gym. Okay, so as you were growing up, females were in charge.
[1:21:18] Yes.
[1:21:19] That's that's did you see did you see when you watch television did you see commercials where men were treated with respect.
[1:21:28] Retreated with respect.
[1:21:31] Where the woman was kind of foolish and made mistakes and the man gently set her straight or even if they were equal the man was treated with respect or did you see commercials or movies or television shows where the men were kind of goofy and foolish and the women were always rolling their eyes and wiser and in charge.
[1:21:52] I don't remember anything, you know, in particular to both sides. It was not that or the other.
[1:21:58] It could be more in Western Europe and North America.
[1:22:00] That's right.
[1:22:01] Okay, so let me ask you this. When you were growing up, who was your male role model that you aspired to become? Because he was wise and strong and powerful and treated with respect.
[1:22:16] That's a good question. Who was it? Who was it?
[1:22:24] I mean the pause is the answer right yeah.
[1:22:27] You're right i think.
[1:22:28] There was no one.
[1:22:30] Maybe when i got into you know music it was musicians you know guys with guitars and everything.
[1:22:36] No they they they may have status but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were patriarchal or treated with respect yeah.
[1:22:45] You can say so.
[1:22:45] All right so you did not have an example when you were growing up of a man who was treated with respect and deference.
[1:22:58] Absolutely. No, especially in close proximity that I know of.
[1:23:02] Sure. But even culturally, that's kind of the norm.
[1:23:06] Yeah, you're right.
[1:23:08] I know, because politicians have to defer to women, right? And advertisers have to defer to women because women made like 80 plus percent of the household purchasing decisions. And women vote more and more often than men. So the media, politicians and commercials and like everything has to just bend to the vanity of women, which means mostly denigrating men.
[1:23:31] Yeah, that's a Western thing. That's a Western thing.
[1:23:33] Yes, but you experienced it directly.
[1:23:38] In a way.
[1:23:39] Your mother drove your father away, and he never came back.
[1:23:45] She drove him away, and he...
[1:23:48] She decided to get rid of him, and he never came back. Now, there could be good reasons for that. You know, not good reasons, but understandable reasons. But as a kid, she's all-powerful.
[1:24:01] Yes.
[1:24:04] I mean, she triumphed over your father who beat you, which means she's stronger than your father.
[1:24:11] Yes. Okay.
[1:24:14] And do you know why I'm hammering this female authority thing?
[1:24:21] No.
[1:24:22] Because you are currently paralyzed in a conflict between two females.
[1:24:28] Yes, I am.
[1:24:30] Right. And because you can't please both the women, you're paralyzed.
[1:24:39] Yes, okay.
[1:24:41] And because you are asking for respect and your wife is not giving it to you, you're paralyzed. Because you don't have a template for male authority. You only have a template for female supremacy. And I'm not blaming you, of course, for that. I blame society or culture or whatever, right? But you are in a situation where you need respect and authority from your wife.
[1:25:13] Well, at least some kind of sympathy.
[1:25:17] Well, but the sympathy would come from respect and authority.
[1:25:23] Yes. respect and authority.
[1:25:29] And none of this is negative towards you, and it's all solvable, just so you know. But that's what's going on. Now, help me understand this. I know we've got to skip a bit, but we've been talking for quite a while. I want to make sure we get to the end of it. So, why after you separated from your mother in, what was it, October of 2022? Do I remember that right?
[1:25:49] That's right. That's right. Roughly.
[1:25:52] So, how long had you been married by then?
[1:25:55] For about three years.
[1:25:56] Okay so you separated from your mother because you had a terrible confrontation which i i'm really sorry about and i'm i just want to throw my sympathy in for all of that so why did why did why did she return why did you bring her back into your life.
[1:26:14] In what way what do you mean by this.
[1:26:15] Well she's back into your life your mother right.
[1:26:20] Um she was never really out of my life even at this.
[1:26:25] Point sorry if i i'm sorry if i have this wrong my understanding was that you had a big break with your mother in october of 2022 that's right okay so you had a standard she violated it egregiously and then you stopped seeing her right.
[1:26:45] We never really saw each other for a long time it was mostly phone calls.
[1:26:50] Okay do you really want to nitpick at me about whether you saw her physically or not is that important no.
[1:26:56] It's not important you're right but what do you mean by.
[1:26:58] Okay no no no see the male authority thing is not nitpicking.
[1:27:03] That's all right. All right.
[1:27:05] Well, it's certainly one of the major ingredients, right? It is a symptom of the week to look for marginal exceptions. It's a form of covering bases so you don't get criticized, but male authority doesn't particularly care about criticism. So I just want to point out, don't nitpick. Don't nitpick. All right. So October of 2022, you have a big break with your mother and you cut off contact with your mother, if I understand the story correctly.
[1:27:32] Yes it was mostly it's not like i i i said this like hey we're done or something like that i just, the conversation ended kind of normal i would say okay i think i understand what i needed to understand uh goodbye and that's it and she after this she called me again like it never happened And I just texted her like, hey, I, at this point.
[1:28:03] Bro, bro. I mean, I'm trying to help you out here. And you're giving me all of these details that are irrelevant. Did you have a big break with your mother in October 2022?
[1:28:13] What do you mean by big break?
[1:28:15] Well, you stopped communicating with her because it wasn't working.
[1:28:20] Yes, yes.
[1:28:22] Okay, so why is this, why are we floundering around here? I'm trying to get to the solution here. And you're, well, what exactly do you mean by this, that, or the other, right?
[1:28:30] Because you're saying that she's back in my life, but it's kind of hard for me to grasp.
[1:28:41] But the whole point is that, sorry. Okay, I'm happy to be corrected about this. Okay. If I have gotten something completely wrong. All right. i d food you wrote to me i d food from my mother in october 2022, right d food which means to separate from your mother it's like divorce right, uh yes maybe i it means it means to remove from your life your family of origin.
[1:29:19] Okay, do you think I used this incorrectly?
[1:29:21] So when you write to me this, do you remember writing this? I mean, that's one of the reasons I have people read their actual email.
[1:29:28] No, actually, I wrote it, this version.
[1:29:32] No, I don't care about versions. This is what I read. Versions don't mean anything to me because this is what I read.
[1:29:38] You're correct. You're correct.
[1:29:39] You said, I defude from my mother in October 2022 after an emotional and honest two-hour phone call. in a way i was inspired by your call and shows that i discovered around three to four months before doing this right yes so you separated from your mother in october of 2022.
[1:29:56] I think it's it's a situation that you are describing uh a lot.
[1:30:00] No no no no you are describing it you wrote it what i don't understand what the problem what is the problem here i mean was it incorrect what you wrote maybe maybe i'm what do you mean maybe you're you're hesitating as if i'm getting something wrong which if i'm getting something wrong it's because you gave me the wrong word.
[1:30:23] Yes i did i think.
[1:30:25] Right so if i said i divorced my wife in october my divorce with my wife was finalized in october 2022 right okay and then i said so you divorced your wife No. Why would you think that?
[1:30:37] Does it really sound like this?
[1:30:40] I do food for my mother in October 2022. That is separating from your mother. It doesn't necessarily mean permanently, blah, blah, blah, right? But that is a break with your mother.
[1:30:53] Yes, yes, okay, okay.
[1:30:55] I'm sorry, why is there this hesitation about what you wrote?
[1:30:59] Because I'm starting to second guessing if I really used the right term. in this case. Maybe I just used this incorrectly in a way, because honestly, in this case, I would just, how would I describe this, Sam? We just stopped regular communication like before? What is this? Separation?
[1:31:30] I don't know. I don't know what you mean by regular communication. I don't know what you mean by stopped in this circumstance.
[1:31:36] We used to have weekly phone calls with each other.
[1:31:40] Okay, you'd have weekly phone calls, and then you have this big, difficult interaction in October of 2022, and then what?
[1:31:49] And then this weekly phone call stopped completely, and we stopped.
[1:31:55] You stopped them?
[1:31:56] Yeah, I stopped them.
[1:31:58] Okay, so you stopped talking to your mother?
[1:32:02] Yes. but i there.
[1:32:04] Are pause about this i don't understand.
[1:32:06] Because i'm trying to catch.
[1:32:08] You on something i'm just trying to understand what you wrote to me.
[1:32:10] Yeah because i i i did not block her i still replied to her i don't.
[1:32:15] Care i don't care you stopped talking to her okay did you did you text back and forth was there some other form of communication that is making this muddier i'm just all.
[1:32:24] I'm trying to do i did i did i did okay and so.
[1:32:28] What was your texting about.
[1:32:31] After this uh she tried to uh to get the the situation straight with me so i texted her, you know all the questions again um um and i think after this we only texted a little bit back and forth and uh it was getting worse and worse there.
[1:32:56] Was some residual communication after october but it didn't resolve and it faded out is that right.
[1:33:02] Absolutely yeah faded out completely almost to to the point of just uh just several text messages after this um a year after and maybe a couple of like this a little bit before so it was mostly her trying to text me and me replying in some way or not replying at all at all if the uh the message is just uh insulting you.
[1:33:31] Say hang on what did you say to your wife and i'm sorry about that i really am and i heard the insulting part which we'll come back to but what did you say to your wife about your phone call with your mother.
[1:33:40] Well i said i just described it what we what we were talking about and everything that she said to me and everything that I said to her as is. Well, not verbatim, but the basic gist. And I don't know.
[1:34:07] And how much does your wife know about what you experienced as a child from your mother, like the beatings and all of that, right?
[1:34:18] Well, every major event like this, she knows of.
[1:34:23] Okay. So I want to make sure I get things correct here, right? So you defude from your mother, which was your last significant or voice or mutual communication was in October 2022, but there was a little bit of residual texting, but that's faded out within a year, right?
[1:34:39] Um not not like within a year we um so we had this conversation then she tried to call me again like nothing happened uh i rejected this she tried to text me and uh i responded a little bit and then after a year she contacted me again through the text uh saying basically like hey let's forget everything and i responded like okay um so the basic gist was that she uh she asked me like hey let's forget everything bad let's remember only the good forgiveness blah blah blah and i said like why why wasn't i forgiven why why did you choose me this father okay ask me first answer all these questions if you want to so basically standards just regular standards and she just uh uh, retaliated and, uh, start even calling, calling names and everything, calling me asshole.
[1:35:34] And that was after a year or longer after a year.
[1:35:40] No communication. And then she tried to, um, maybe, uh, uh, to, I can't even say make amends, but to kind of.
[1:35:53] She's not calling, she's not making amends if she's calling you an asshole. Right.
[1:35:55] But this was after I did not just say like, yeah, yeah, let's forget about everything. I did not say that and she got aggressive.
[1:36:07] So
[1:36:10] And after this we only had like a couple of text messages here and there mostly her.
[1:36:16] Texting I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong I just want to understand why are you still in communication with this woman who still calls you an asshole.
[1:36:29] That's a good question, I i think it's it's kind of similar to maybe your situations that i'm not like my door is open but i'm just uh not gonna let her in with uh.
[1:36:49] Sorry sorry i mean that was a good attempt at aligning yourself with me but it's not accurate.
[1:36:57] So my approach.
[1:36:59] I don't have i don't have people in my life who call me an asshole.
[1:37:03] What do you mean you're you don't have a people in your life.
[1:37:06] I don't have i don't text back and forth or try to reason with people or if they call me an asshole, because that's verbally abusive and that's a shitty way to treat someone, you do you she's still you'll still text with her you'll still go back and forth with her and that's not a big condemnation but it's facts right you're.
[1:37:29] Right it is a fact.
[1:37:30] Okay right so it's not the same, if somebody calls me an asshole they can fuck off, i mean maybe if they say oh my gosh yeah i can't believe i did that that was really rude that was really terrible blah blah blah blah i'm going to go to you know therapy or anger management okay then maybe maybe i don't know right but that's such a theoretical it doesn't really matter right.
[1:38:00] That's a good question why my door is still open.
[1:38:02] That's what i'm trying to ask because i thought it was closed for the most part i mean almost exclusively so why why is your door still open.
[1:38:12] Do you think i know the the answer to this.
[1:38:14] Well somebody does and it's more likely to be you since it's your life here's another question why does your wife allow this, why does he not say hey this this woman beat you as a kid she was incredibly rude to you as an adult she called you an asshole when you asked her some reasonable questions i don't why why would you have her around why why is your wife not saying bro this is terrible what are you doing.
[1:38:47] That's correct and this was my this was my, this is where I wrote my part about feeling betrayed, So I also ask this from her, like, why? She did all this. Okay, what am I not getting? Tell me.
[1:39:24] She's following your lead.
[1:39:26] She's following my lead.
[1:39:28] Who's betraying you?
[1:39:31] Who's betraying me? Am I betraying myself?
[1:39:35] Of course.
[1:39:38] Uh okay i'm.
[1:39:41] Betraying someone in your life who calls you an asshole and you're still communicating with them, is that correct yes.
[1:39:54] But i'm not oh man i i i feel the the need to nitpick here like i'm.
[1:40:00] Not really communicating be honest if this is your if that's your preference uh go for it because again i could always be wrong so feel free to nitpick.
[1:40:10] Okay yeah my nitpicking was around the fact that i did i only responded to um, To the actual, to something which have some kind of substance, which is not like a girly insults or anything like that. This I ignore.
[1:40:31] I don't know what you mean by something that only has some kind of substance. The only thing, the only thing, the only thing that you should be responding to is an apology. A deep, heartfelt, sincere apology and restitution and a reasonable assurance that it's not going to happen again.
[1:41:01] So basically, I responded to something that looked like that for her, but not for me.
[1:41:13] Okay i okay.
[1:41:16] Go for it i.
[1:41:17] Don't know what the hell that means.
[1:41:18] I mean when she uh texted me like a year after after the break like hey you know let's forget about all the bad things and i only responded to that that's not an apology of course it's not an apology yeah how.
[1:41:35] Is it pretend that nothing bad happened and pretend that i never did anything wrong how the fuck is that an apology.
[1:41:44] That's not an apology and do you want to say that no no you.
[1:41:47] Said you said it sounded like an apology to her i.
[1:41:50] Don't know what that really means but well when when the person is is kind of like doing evil things all the time he may see this thing as like a way i think even my wife mentioned this once she said like well maybe she's trying to, be apologetic but she's just doing a bad job.
[1:42:17] But you can say that about somebody stabs you in the throat and say, well, maybe he was trying to give you a tracheotomy, but he was just doing a bad job. A thief steals your wallet. Well, maybe he was trying to return your wallet. He's just doing a bad job. That doesn't mean anything. You can say that about anything.
[1:42:32] For me, yes. The same thing. It doesn't, you know.
[1:42:37] Okay. So now you're taking me off to your wife here.
[1:42:40] Okay.
[1:42:40] Why are you having someone in your life who's an unapologetic verbal abuser calling you an asshole? and not apologizing for it and not fixing it and not getting help or anything like that? Why do you have, and listen, maybe that's a good reason. I'm just, but that's my question. Why do you have someone in your life who's calling you an asshole and won't apologize for beating you as a child or choosing your father or driving your father away or whatever, whatever your major complaints are? I mean, I have some of them. I'm sure I don't have all of them. Why do you have someone welcome in your life that you're engaging with who has this kind of behavior?
[1:43:22] She's not welcome in my life. I'm not really engaging with her. That's the thing.
[1:43:27] Okay. So now this is just weasel words. Do you engage with her? Do you respond to her? Do you text with her?
[1:43:37] Again, the last time I did it was October 2023, basically, when I responded to this thing, when she said, let's forget about everything.
[1:43:49] So that was the last time that you had any interactions with your mother was October 2023?
[1:43:57] I also texted her once when I found out that she was sending...
[1:44:03] Okay, go on.
[1:44:05] I um i found out that she was sending money to my wife um so she could buy stuff for my for my kids and i tech and i texted her stop doing this i i i don't like it and that's it.
[1:44:25] Why did you text your mother with this and i'm not saying you're wrong i'm just kind of curious.
[1:44:33] I i wanted her to stop this but.
[1:44:36] Why don't you just ask your wife to send the money back.
[1:44:41] I i did and she yeah so.
[1:44:44] That was solved.
[1:44:47] That was not solved she she didn't send this back your.
[1:44:51] Wife didn't send the money back.
[1:44:52] No she didn't um why not she said because oh you know it's not for it's not for me it's just for kids and all this stuff and i was i was putting this with this up for you know quite some time.
[1:45:12] Okay so um i appreciate that that update so october 2023 was the last time you had any interaction with your mother. And do you consider yourself, since you considered yourself not defood in October, 2022, do you consider yourself defood in October, 2023?
[1:45:33] Well, she's not welcome. I'm not, um.
[1:45:37] You have no interactions with her. You don't contact her and you're not trying to fix the relationship. You're accepting the way she is. Um, and you're not, you have no plans to initiate any particular contact.
[1:45:48] Yeah, that's, that's describes it quite well. But at the same time.
[1:45:53] So can we, can we hang on? I just, cause I don't want to get tripped up on this language forever and ever. Amen. Are you defood as of October, 2023? Since you didn't, since you told me you would defood in October, 2022, and that's fine. If you want to extend it by a year, this is not a court of law. You can change whatever you want. Right. So do we just say then you're defood as of October, 2023?
[1:46:14] Yeah, we can say so.
[1:46:15] Okay, no, not can we say so, is it true?
[1:46:22] You know what? I really need to see my history with this. Let me have a look. Okay. October 2023. Yes, it was the last time. And then the only time was when I initiated was when I said, yeah, stop sending money a year later.
[1:46:50] Got it. All right. So your DFU is October 2023.
[1:46:54] Right? Yes.
[1:46:55] Okay, good. All right. So you said before that, I introduced her to my wife around three years ago, but because we've moved to DFU a year later, we got four years ago, right? Four years before.
[1:47:05] Yes. Okay.
[1:47:06] Okay. They saw each other in person twice back when we were dating around 2019. And when my son was around six months old in January, 2022, both times very briefly to two to four days, they both started speaking over the phone when my son was born and my mother was mostly interested in him. Back then it was a relief for me to, since I could skip my boring conversations with her. Back then I was bored with her and my anger came gradually later.
[1:47:26] Okay.
[1:47:27] You said, now my wife is in a difficult situation. Her husband fully condemned his mother for her past crimes, but at the same time, he introduced them to each other when we were still on speaking terms. My wife is not coming from a divorced family, good relationship with her parents. Sudden defooing caught her off guard. Okay. Was it a sudden defooing? Had you not expressed to your wife that you had problems with your mother and you were going to try and talk to your mother about those problems and so on? It's not a criticism, I'm just curious.
[1:47:55] The sudden part was mostly related to cutting contact, this regular phone calling.
[1:48:04] All right. So you hadn't talked to your wife about the stuff you'd been listening to in my show. Is that right? That this sort of family separation thing is an option if the abuse is not diminishing?
[1:48:23] Yes, we were talking about this a lot. That's why I'm basically calling.
[1:48:28] Hang on. If you were talking about it a lot and she knew that you were going to confront your mother how is it a sudden thing for and i'm sorry if i'm doing that before this and a follow before this uh no it's referring to what.
[1:48:41] If you're if you're talking uh prior to this phone call in october 2022 then before this we were not really discussing much um about this all the discussions came later when i did this.
[1:48:59] Okay so you were listening to me learning for a couple of years learning about the defu stuff you knew you were going to confront your sorry go ahead not.
[1:49:06] Not really for like three four months as i.
[1:49:09] Okay so for three more four months you were listening to me uh about the defu stuff you decided to have a confrontation with your mother and was it your thought when you had the confrontation with your mother that if she escalated or continued to be abusive that a separation from your mother or a defu was on the table was a possibility.
[1:49:34] Uh, it was not like it was possibility. It was just something that I would, that I would be, uh, um, happy for.
[1:49:45] Okay. So, um, a probability.
[1:49:48] High probability, of course.
[1:49:49] High probability. Okay. So you went into, and again, I'm not trying to cross-examine you in any way. I'm just trying to understand. So you went into the conversation with your mother knowing that a DFU was a likely outcome and might in fact be a preferred outcome.
[1:50:01] For me, yeah, absolutely.
[1:50:02] Okay, of course it's for you. And your wife didn't know about any of this?
[1:50:08] No, I did not tell her like, hey, I'm going to have this conversation. It just, we had like a regular phone call and it just went into it.
[1:50:17] Okay, so why did your wife, and again, it's not a big criticism, I'm just trying to understand, why did your wife not know about this?
[1:50:26] Because I was not really planning for this. It just happened spontaneously.
[1:50:34] No this is uh this is not true if you've been listening to defu stuff and you decide to have a confrontation with your mother you know that there's a risk it's going to go badly right, yes okay so why wouldn't you talk about that with your wife ahead of time i've been listening to this thing uh about maybe not seeing parents i'm really not enjoying my conversations with my parent with my mother and i'm going to confront her but it might go badly and i might end up separating from her why wouldn't she know that.
[1:51:02] Oh that's a good question.
[1:51:07] Oh good i'm glad we finally got to the good part of the question i'm thrilled because i felt it was a good question you flick your head.
[1:51:13] No no no seriously you're you're doing fine i mean and just uh it's it's me who were a little bit confused here um why did it not.
[1:51:26] Why i think your wife about what was going on with her mother-in-law.
[1:51:34] Why? It's a good question. Why? I cannot say that I don't know, because I feel like I do know.
[1:51:51] Well, what's this?
[1:52:01] Well let me ask you this what do you think your wife would have said if you'd said i'm going to sit down with my mother and uh there's going to be this confrontation and i might end up, not seeing her for a while what would your wife have said i.
[1:52:19] Think she would try to talk me out of this.
[1:52:23] Okay. And so that's why you didn't tell her.
[1:52:27] Yeah, this is what I'm thinking, at least on the surface.
[1:52:31] Okay. And again, it's not a criticism, but what would she have said, right? Okay. So you play your wife. I'll play you. Okay. Let's just do a little role play here so I can understand this. Is that all right?
[1:52:41] Okay.
[1:52:41] Okay. Honey, I've been listening to this guy up in Canada and he says, you don't have to be in abusive relationships, even if it's parents. and, you know, my mother beat me, you know, black and blue when I was a kid and screamed at me and, you know, it was just pretty terrible all around and so on. And, you know, I don't enjoy interacting with her. It's negative for me. And I think especially if, you know, we're married to you, you're wonderful. She's very different. You're going to be a much better mother. It's really highlighting for me, blah, blah, blah. So I'm going to have a confrontation with my mother, but I just want to tell you ahead of time that if it goes badly, if my mother continues to be abusive, I might take a break from the relationship with her.
[1:53:24] Why what what kind of guy did did you know on the internet tell you this what is this.
[1:53:31] Sorry what did what do you think he told me to.
[1:53:34] Uh to separate from your family.
[1:53:37] Sorry what do you mean by this sorry sorry that's what did i just say though that's not what i said.
[1:53:44] Okay and what did you say.
[1:53:45] But you were just here what do you mean what did i say you you were just here i was just talking it's literally 10 seconds later and you don't know what i said, okay well pretty rude isn't it and then you just make something up that's really rude with all due respect i love you to death but that's really like telling you something really personal and important to me and you're not even listening okay i'll tell you what why don't we take a break from this conversation and let's figure out a time when you're actually able to listen rather than just look at me and pretend that we're listening why don't we take a break and and then you can tell me when you're actually going to be listening i mean unless you want to do that now i.
[1:54:27] Would rather not have this conversation ever because i'm tired because this that and the other what are you talking about.
[1:54:35] Sorry you don't know what i'm talking about i just told you what i'm talking about.
[1:54:40] Yes i understand what you're talking about in terms of the meaning.
[1:54:44] Okay so if you understand what I'm talking about, why would you say to me, what are you talking about?
[1:54:52] What is this?
[1:54:54] Sorry, you're not answering my question. If you know what I'm talking about, why would you ask me what I'm talking about? You understand that's kind of confusing, right?
[1:55:01] Well, yes, it's confusing.
[1:55:03] Okay. So maybe try not to be so confusing, right? Because it's kind of hard to communicate if you're being really confusing and contradicting yourself from one five second time slice to the next, right? Okay. So let's, let's start again. What did you get out of what I said about my mother?
[1:55:20] That you want to separate from her?
[1:55:25] Sorry, are you asking me or telling me?
[1:55:27] It's a question.
[1:55:30] Okay, so if I just told you what I was thinking, I'm not sure why you'd need to guess. Like if you say to me, we're going to dinner at Luigi's tomorrow night, and I say, okay, and then I say, so we're going to set fire to a pizza hut tomorrow? You'd be kind of annoyed, right?
[1:55:49] Yeah. Yes, you're right.
[1:55:51] So you're trying to draw me into a life of crime here by burning down a Pizza Hut? It's like, no, that's not what I said. I said, we're going to go for dinner at Luigi's tomorrow. Where did you get that thing from? Right? That would be annoying, right?
[1:56:01] Okay. So you're saying you're just going to have a conversation that might lead to this.
[1:56:07] Okay, fantastic. So you kind of were listening. So I appreciate that. So yes. Okay. So I'm going to have a conversation with my mother. Why?
[1:56:17] Uh because you want to talk about your childhood again and uh.
[1:56:26] Sorry what do you mean by again have i had a lot of conversations with my mother about my childhood.
[1:56:31] Yes you did i think i think so yes.
[1:56:35] Okay so okay so i want to talk with my mother about my childhood okay and why do i want to talk to my mother about my childhood it.
[1:56:46] Because you are not happy about it and because...
[1:56:52] Oh, wait, sorry. Is it because I'm just not happy? Like somebody brought me the wrong food at a restaurant and I'm just sending it back? What do you mean, I'm just not happy? Did my mother do things that were wrong as a mother?
[1:57:06] Yes, she did.
[1:57:07] Okay, so it's not just that I'm not happy, right? What do you think my complaints are? I mean, I've mentioned them, obviously, or more than mentioned them over the years. What are my major complaints regarding my mother?
[1:57:21] That she was abusive, she was neglectful, and yeah, that's about it.
[1:57:31] Okay. And what do you think are the pluses for me in my relationship with my mother? What are the things that make me happy and satisfied and enjoying my contact or my relationships with my mother?
[1:57:48] I don't know. It's a good question. You tell me, maybe.
[1:57:53] Well, nothing, really. I mean, I don't look forward to talking to her. I find the conversations very boring. And I kind of dissociate, like I'm not present in the conversation. and so it's it's mostly negative and i want to try and find something positive in my relationship with my mother right does that make sense to you.
[1:58:13] But do you really do you really but do you really want to find something positive or you just want to uh get your revenge on her for all that she did to you.
[1:58:29] Sorry, if I wanted to get my revenge on my mother, I'd hire criminals to beat her senseless, as she did to me. She beat me senseless. So I'm not sure what you mean by revenge.
[1:58:38] Well, revenge, that is...
[1:58:40] I'd go to the godfather, you know?
[1:58:42] That is not against the law.
[1:58:43] I'd offer to do him a favor in return for somebody beating up my mom, right? So I'm not sure what you mean by revenge.
[1:58:51] Well, it's easy. You're staying in the boundaries of the law, but you're just kicking her out of her life when she's old, when she's...
[1:59:04] I'm sorry, kicking her out of... Do you mean my life?
[1:59:06] Yes.
[1:59:07] Okay. So, I just want to make sure I understand. So, you think that I'm setting a trap for my mom that she can't win so that I can kick her out of my life?
[1:59:17] Well, yes, because you're giving her all this, everything that you're saying. Yeah, it's obvious she was abusive and all that stuff. Yeah, that's right. You're right about it. She cannot win this argument against you.
[1:59:33] Well, she can take responsibility and apologize. Maybe go to therapy, get some anger management, something, right?
[1:59:40] Yeah, but she apologized already.
[1:59:43] No, she hasn't apologized. No.
[1:59:47] She apologized in her conversation with me.
[1:59:51] No. Okay. Okay. Honey, love of my life. Which one of us is the expert on whether my mother has apologized? You or me? Is the wronged party not the expert on when the apology is satisfactory? She didn't beat you. She didn't scream at you. She didn't drive your father away.
[2:00:12] Well, she did it. And whether you like it or not, she did it.
[2:00:18] Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that my mother did what she did? That's your big stellar contribution to this conversation to remind me that my mother did what she did? That's not very helpful, honey. Come on.
[2:00:29] No, I mean...
[2:00:30] You need to up your game just a little bit.
[2:00:32] No, wait, wait a second. Wait a second. She mentioned that she feels sorry about this when we were talking about this. And she, yeah, she feels sorry.
[2:00:43] Yes, but that has changed.
[2:00:45] Uh yeah because she she she's uh she cannot really change herself at this point.
[2:00:51] Okay so hang on hang on so you're saying that my mother can't change right yes yes absolutely okay i appreciate that i i i think she might be able to i'm willing to give it a shot because i want to give her you know every chance so let me ask you this i mean we have our lovely child right, Sorry, is a little boy or a little girl?
[2:01:14] We have a boy and a girl.
[2:01:16] A boy and a girl, sorry. Okay, so we have our lovely children. Now, let's say that my mother babysits.
[2:01:25] By this moment, we only have one child. Yes, the girl came later.
[2:01:30] Okay, so we have our little boy, and let's say that my mother is babysitting, and let's say that my mother did... to our little boy or does to our little boy what she did to me he will never do no no hang on just just let me finish it's kind of rude to interrupt okay so so my mother does to our boy, what she did to me as a boy would she be welcome to babysit again, No Ah, okay, okay So, would we ever leave her alone with our son again?
[2:02:21] No.
[2:02:22] Okay.
[2:02:23] We won't.
[2:02:24] So, if my mother does to our son what she did to me, she would not be welcome as a grandmother in the home. Is that fair to say?
[2:02:38] Yes.
[2:02:39] Okay. So, you have no problem detaching from my mother if your son gets abused. but the fact that even once but the fact that i was abused multiple times i should continue the relationship so you'll cut her off if she abuses your child once but the fact that she abused me a hundred times means i should somehow continue like no problem.
[2:03:11] Yes but understand it was in the past you're a you're a big guy now.
[2:03:15] She will never do that If she abuses our son, that also was in the past. We come home at nine o'clock, she abused our son at six o'clock. That's also in the past.
[2:03:27] No, but I mean.
[2:03:28] You didn't mention anything about it being in the past when she abused her son. So don't pull that on me.
[2:03:38] You know.
[2:03:39] All abuse is in the past.
[2:03:40] Long, long past.
[2:03:41] And let's not find it in the moment.
[2:03:42] Okay, okay. it's a long long long long long time ago.
[2:03:51] Right that's what i'm trying to say had a long long long long time to change apologize and improve so that doesn't help your case, okay.
[2:04:11] Okay, where are we going with this?
[2:04:13] Why is our son worthy of protection, but I'm not?
[2:04:20] Because you're not a little boy anymore.
[2:04:23] Correct. I'm not a little boy. So I have independence. I have adulthood. I'm not dependent upon my mother anymore. So our son would also be helpless as a little boy, but he would depend upon our adult judgment to protect him. Is that fair to say?
[2:04:38] Absolutely, yes.
[2:04:39] Right. Now, my mother was verbally abusive, as you know, right? She yelled and screamed at me. And I don't like that. Do you think that, let's say that a friend of yours called you a bitch and an asshole, would you expect me to be friends with someone like that?
[2:05:06] No, not really.
[2:05:09] Sorry, what do you mean by not really? You mean somewhat?
[2:05:14] Because I don't have people like that in my life who would do that.
[2:05:17] Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. You just closed the case for me. You don't have people in your life who call you bitch and asshole, right?
[2:05:28] But I mean, it never happened to me.
[2:05:30] Hang on, hang on, hang on. I just want confirmation of that because that's what you just said. I want to race off on some other topic. You don't have people in your life who call you bitch and asshole, correct?
[2:05:44] Let me think about it. Okay. Let me think about it.
[2:05:46] That's what you just said. What's there to think about? You just told me that.
[2:05:50] Oh, this is what just comes to mind.
[2:05:54] Okay. That's good. So you wouldn't want me to be friends with someone who called you a bitch or an asshole, right? Or both.
[2:06:01] Yes, but friends are different. Parents are parents. This is your mother.
[2:06:07] So your big contribution to the conversation is to tell me that parents are parents.
[2:06:14] But this is different. She raised you.
[2:06:17] Okay. Do you think that I don't know that she raised me? Do you think, I mean, I have literally been referring to her as my mother.
[2:06:27] Yeah, but you...
[2:06:27] Why do you think I don't know that she raised me?
[2:06:30] I think you don't know this because you are trying to pull off this...
[2:06:34] You think I don't know that my mother raised me? Come on.
[2:06:39] No, I know...
[2:06:40] Come on.
[2:06:41] I know this.
[2:06:42] No, I can't let you say these ridiculous things. Sorry, honey. Like, I just can't. I mean, if there's something bothering you about what I'm saying, then you can tell me that. But don't insult my intelligence and your intelligence. Actually, don't even insult your intelligence by telling me that I'm not aware that the woman I call mother raised me. Come on. Let's not go down that road. That's ridiculous. Okay. So you don't have people in your life who verbally abuse you, right?
[2:07:11] Yes.
[2:07:12] Yeah. Okay. And listen, I'm very.
[2:07:14] I would not want that at least.
[2:07:16] Yeah. So I'm certainly thrilled that your parents didn't do that to you. And I, of course I envy you and I think that's, that's great. So I will tell you my standards with regards to my mother. If I. I tell her the things that she did that was wrong. If she calls me names, like selfish, stupid, asshole, or something like that, right? Then I don't want her in my life. Because I don't want to have someone in my life that if I'm honest with them and not abusing them, that they abuse me and call me names. Okay. If my mother... let's say my mother calls me an asshole. Why would I want someone in my life who calls me an asshole when I'm just being honest about my experiences of them?
[2:08:17] Okay, fair enough.
[2:08:20] Good, so I think we're in agreement then. So then I go and talk to my mother. I tell her the issues that I have. and if she verbally abuses me then you're fine with me taking a break.
[2:08:36] Yes i guess you can do that.
[2:08:38] Good fantastic so what's what's with what's with all the confusion i mean we're on the same page here right.
[2:08:48] By we, you mean you and I.
[2:08:51] Or me and my wife? Yeah, yeah, you and I. I don't know what my mom's going to do. I mean, I have a suspicion, but I don't know for sure. If I knew for sure, I wouldn't have the conversation, right? So I don't know what my mom's going to do, but we're both in agreement that if she calls me pretty terrible names, that I'm fine to take a break from her.
[2:09:10] Okay. All right.
[2:09:13] In the same way that, look, if some family member were to call you a see you next tuesday or uh or a bitch or an asshole and i'm sorry to even use these words in your vicinity i apologize but if somebody were to call you that i wouldn't want you spending time with them because that's kind of a crazy mean person isn't it or a bully yeah.
[2:09:35] But yeah but a person could say this you know just um in the heat of the moment he didn't really mean it or she or they or.
[2:09:42] Whatever. No, that's, uh, now you're just lying to me. And this is really, really pissing me off. Now you're just straight up lying to me.
[2:09:49] How's that lying?
[2:09:50] You're lying. Okay. You said to me, you would not have someone like that in your life. And now you're saying, well, in the heat of the moment, if they didn't, that's, that's not what you said. And you're not even acknowledging that you're changing the entire equation here this is manipulative as hell.
[2:10:08] You know what you're right i think yeah i was a little bit too uh too quick to uh to jump on a thing that you know i wouldn't have this in my life or whatever yeah you know what if yes if if it's the heat of the moment if the person is just emotional, or like that maybe yeah maybe okay.
[2:10:36] So if they made a mistake in calling you a bad name right.
[2:10:40] Yes then.
[2:10:42] What would they have to do to fix it if someone called you a bitch or an asshole or something like that how would.
[2:10:51] They fix it, No, it depends on the person in the situation.
[2:10:58] No, it doesn't. Don't get all relativistic, Adby. Come on. How would somebody fix it if they called you a horrible name?
[2:11:07] You want to say that you got to get the nephology?
[2:11:12] I don't know. What is your standard for somebody who's done you a terrible wrong to fix it?
[2:11:21] Well if it's a if it's some kind of friend or or whatever then yeah apology would be good but i wouldn't i wouldn't expect anything like this from my parents right you've.
[2:11:34] Never experienced anything like this from your parents i have so how dare you tell me how to handle something you've never even had to face. Do I tell you how to deal with your period? Do I tell you how to deal with the pain of childbirth or cramps? I don't experience those things, so I shut up and listen when you're having difficulties. I don't give you, oh, well, here's what you need to do with your period pain. Here's how you need to psychologically handle the pain of childbirth. wouldn't you just kind of laugh at me?
[2:12:12] How dare you tell me how to handle an abusive mother when your mother is nice?
[2:12:25] If you had a friend, let's say I had a friend who was female, who'd been sexually assaulted, would I lecture her on how to deal with that and what relationship she should have or whether she should forgive someone who sexually assaulted her? Would I dare to tell her how to handle it? Your mother's nice. I love that about your family. I love it. I think it's great. But you could stand to have a little more curiosity and a little bit less lecturing me on something you've never even experienced, honey. If I've never been to war, I don't lecture people who've been to war on how they should think and feel about it. I just listen because I don't know. I don't lecture people on things I've never experienced and don't understand. Do you see what I'm saying?
[2:13:29] Okay, yes, I'm listening.
[2:13:33] So, if somebody calls you a bitch or an asshole, or both, then they owe you an apology. Right? Because if you are a bitch or an asshole, but you're not, but if you are, then they shouldn't be friends with you. And if you're not a bitch and an asshole and they call you a bitch and an asshole, they're just being a bully and mean and trying to break you by being verbally abusive, right? So they owe you an apology because they're wrong. And the fact that they owe you an apology is so that they understand that what they did was wrong. And listen, when our son gets older, guess what? He's going to push some kid and take their toy, right? And we're going to say, give the toy back and say, you're sorry. Okay. Can you imagine doing that as a parent?
[2:14:20] Yes, absolutely.
[2:14:22] Okay. So a three-year-old has to apologize for a wrongdoing, right? Now, I don't just mean mouth the words. We sort of have to explain to him why it's important, right?
[2:14:36] Yes. Okay.
[2:14:38] Okay. If I do something that hurts you, do you expect an apology from me?
[2:14:47] If you were wrong, yes.
[2:14:49] Well, yes, if I'm wrong. And if I say something mean to you or I do something mean to you, I don't just mean like accidental. Even though, even with an accident, I say, I'm sorry. That's why, I'm so sorry I didn't mean to. That was a total accident. I'll be more careful in the future, whatever, right? Because the reason we want apologies is so that we can begin to trust that the behavior is not going to happen again. Because people who refuse to apologize are planning on doing the same thing again. Or even if they're not planning, they'll let themselves. so let's establish this if you say well in the heat of the moment somebody might call you an asshole or a bitch, but obviously they feel bad about it right because they don't they recognize it's unfair and they don't want to do that right well yeah and so and the way that they communicate the way they communicate that is through an apology, right?
[2:15:45] Okay, yes.
[2:15:47] Can we agree we would want a three-year-old to apologize, you'd want me to apologize, and parents aren't magically immune from moral requirements, are they?
[2:15:58] I cannot agree with that.
[2:16:01] Okay, fantastic. So parents can murder at will and can never be charged with a crime because they're immune from moral requirements.
[2:16:08] Wait a second why are you going to this extreme now.
[2:16:11] No no you said parents are you can't agree that parents are not immune to moral requirements so you're saying parents are immune to moral requirements i'm just curious what moral requirements you're talking about i assume of course you're not saying that parents can murder at will no this no okay can parents steal at will, no okay can they assault people at will.
[2:16:41] I think no.
[2:16:44] Fantastic. So if they assault someone, then they would be criminally liable and should go to jail, right? Just as if they assault, like if they go and assault someone in a restaurant or, you know, whatever, right? So they're not immune from those moral requirements, right?
[2:17:01] But why are we going legal if we're talking about morality?
[2:17:06] Well, do you not think that the law has anything to do with morality?
[2:17:09] Well, yes.
[2:17:11] Okay, good. So, okay. So, parents are liable for assault, right?
[2:17:19] Yes.
[2:17:20] Okay. Does it really matter how long ago the assault occurred? Would they still be, maybe not legally, statute of limitations, would they be morally in the wrong if they assaulted someone, say, five years ago?
[2:17:34] Yes.
[2:17:35] Ten years ago?
[2:17:36] Yes, ten years ago.
[2:17:38] Twenty years ago.
[2:17:40] 20 years ago? I don't know. Seems like a long time.
[2:17:43] No, no. I didn't say would we charge them because eyewitnesses all gone and all that, right? But would they be morally in the wrong for assaulting someone 20 years ago?
[2:17:52] Still to this day?
[2:17:55] Would they be morally in the wrong for assaulting someone 20 years ago?
[2:17:59] Yes.
[2:18:00] Yes. Okay. Because that's what happened to me, right? My mother assaulted me repeatedly 20 years ago.
[2:18:07] Is this like a first degree? What are we doing? Yes, yes, no, yes.
[2:18:12] Okay, you notice that whenever you lose the argument, you just change the subject, right? You said parents are morally responsible and liable for assault that happened 20 years ago. My mother assaulted me repeatedly 20 plus years ago.
[2:18:27] Okay.
[2:18:30] If, let's say somebody calls our son a little prick and an asshole to his face.
[2:18:41] Uh, yes, okay.
[2:18:43] Could that person be in the wrong?
[2:18:45] Well, if our son didn't do anything wrong, I guess.
[2:18:49] Sorry, are you saying that there's something our son could do wrong that would justify somebody calling him a little prick and an asshole to his face?
[2:18:58] Well, maybe, maybe.
[2:19:01] Wow, okay, well, we'll have to have another conversation about that another time, because I think, okay, what about if he's under 10 years old?
[2:19:10] And under 10 years old what what if he do yeah something really bad.
[2:19:16] Like what.
[2:19:22] I cannot even think about this it's just it's.
[2:19:25] Something bad so let's say let's say that uh we hire a babysitter and the babysitter screams at her son at the top of her lungs and and and terrifies him she screams at him for like uh two hours and he's shaking he's wet himself he's terrified would that be something that would be bad.
[2:19:50] From uh coming from babysitter.
[2:19:53] Yeah that's horrible it is i agree what if it was a teacher Okay.
[2:20:00] Jack, that's horrible Okay.
[2:20:03] So a caregiver who has authority over a child should not be screaming at that child for two hours straight, right?
[2:20:12] Where are you going with this?
[2:20:13] No, no, she's asking you questions.
[2:20:17] I'm answering. Okay, yes, yes, yes.
[2:20:20] Okay, good.
[2:20:20] That's not good.
[2:20:21] You know, my mother did that to me, right?
[2:20:23] Yes, yes, she did that to you.
[2:20:25] You remember after I punched the boy.
[2:20:29] Okay.
[2:20:30] Okay, and she's never apologized for it. She's never even admitted that there was a problem.
[2:20:37] No, she didn't.
[2:20:38] Okay. so is it unfair for me especially because i'm a provider and protector for this family right, my major issue is of course it's twofold one i don't want her around my son number two, i don't want her to exercise dominance over me in a negative way because i need to have authority with my son i don't want my son to listen to me being berated by my mother or being even bored by my mother because then it's like, why is daddy talking to someone who's boring? Well, she must have power or authority over him. I need to assert my authority in my family in a positive and healthy way so I can't be bossed around by an older woman. You understand? I mean, I'm not saying you'd understand that because it's a bit of a male thing, but you can understand it, why it might be important to me, right?
[2:21:32] Yes, you told me this a lot of times already.
[2:21:35] I still don't understand. I'm sorry, go ahead.
[2:21:38] I just still don't understand. How is this going to affect you negatively, this whole thing? She's just your mother. And it happened a long time ago, and she might do a bad thing.
[2:21:52] Hang on, hang on. But I still can't be honest with her about anything.
[2:21:59] But you are about to get really honest. What are you talking about?
[2:22:04] Right. And you're resisting that. You're saying that's bad.
[2:22:08] I'm not saying this is bad. I'm saying the separation is bad.
[2:22:12] Okay. So let's say I'm, and the reason I need to be honest with my mother is I'm looking at our son and I'm remembering what my own childhood was like, right?
[2:22:22] He actually told me that.
[2:22:23] That's going to happen, right? Okay. So I need to be honest with my mother. Otherwise she's exercising unhealthy dominance over me. In other words, she's kind of quote, forcing me to lie in order to be in a pretend relationship right okay so i need to be honest with my mother like how can i tell my son, ah son it's really important that you tell the truth be honest don't lie to me if i'm lying to my mother.
[2:22:56] What do you mean lying to your mother in this context?
[2:22:58] My mother calls me up and says, how was your day? And if I've been spending the day thinking about how she abused me as a child, can I tell her the truth?
[2:23:06] Yes, you can.
[2:23:08] Okay, fantastic. So I'm going to go and tell her the truth. So you don't have any problem with me going to tell my mother the truth, right? You don't have any problem with me being honest, right?
[2:23:18] Yes, I have no problem with you being honest. I just have a problem when you're trying to, you know, basically kick your mother out of your life, out of our life.
[2:23:30] No, that's not, no, that's like saying that the police put a man in jail. No, the man puts himself in jail. Do you want me to be in a relationship with my mother where I have to lie continually?
[2:23:45] No, I guess not.
[2:23:47] Fantastic. Okay, so I'm going to go to my mother and tell her the truth. now if she bullies and escalates and yells at me and calls me names, then what would you have me do what do you think would be the right thing to do in that circumstance i.
[2:24:07] Don't know i i feel like you you are both just don't want to.
[2:24:13] Come to any kind of conclusion don't don't don't fade out of me you've got strong opinions about this just be honest. I go to my mother, I tell her the truth. She escalates, she yells at me, and she calls me an asshole. What do you think I should do? What would be the right thing to do? What would be the honorable or moral thing to do, the honest thing to do? If my mother is forcing me into a position where in order to spend any time with her, I have to lie. And, and by the by, she's now verbally abused me not 20 years ago, but two minutes ago.
[2:24:58] Because you said, well, it's deep in the past. What if it's not deep in the past? What if it's right now?
[2:25:12] Yes, it's right now. And, uh, you should just tell her that it's wrong.
[2:25:21] Okay. And I tell her that it's wrong. And she says, you're a selfish prick. I'm just saying, what if, what if, I mean, I know my mother a whole lot better than you do, right? So what if she continues to aggress against me to be verbally abusive? what should I do?
[2:25:40] He's not going to do that. Come on.
[2:25:42] What should I do if that happens? Don't tell me what my mother will and won't do. That's appalling vanity on your part. Who knows my mother better, you or me?
[2:25:54] Of course you.
[2:25:55] Okay, so don't tell me what my mother's going to do or not do. What do I do if she continues to verbally abuse me when all I'm being is honest with her.
[2:26:06] Okay, how about you just hang up.
[2:26:09] Say good one? Answer the question.
[2:26:13] Well, stop the conversation. Just stop the conversation. This one, this particular one.
[2:26:20] Okay, so I should get up and leave?
[2:26:24] Well, in this particular moment, yes, but not in a general sense.
[2:26:30] Okay so i should get up and walk out of the conversation with my mother.
[2:26:35] Well you tell her your reasons and yes.
[2:26:38] Yeah yeah i say you're being verbally abusive i don't want to participate in the conversation and i get up and leave right okay so then i talk to her a couple of days after and i say i want to continue the conversation because it didn't go well last time and you got verbally abusive so i'm going to pick up where i left off and talk about the issues that I have with you? And let's say she starts verbally abusing me again.
[2:27:04] Well, I think you have to do the same thing again.
[2:27:07] Okay, so then I hang up. I talk to her a couple of days later. I say, I want to pick up the conversation where we left it off because it got really ugly last time. You were verbally abusive, and I don't appreciate that, but I'm going to continue with the conversation, and she becomes verbally abusive again. What do I do?
[2:27:23] Well, yeah, you guys really need to take a break until you finally can change your way. What is your problem?
[2:27:31] What is your objection? since you agree if these happens.
[2:27:40] If this happens, no i i i don't know no objections.
[2:27:48] No no you just hang on you just said you know you said we need to take a break.
[2:27:52] Well yeah but not like a super break or.
[2:27:59] Okay how long i take a break let's say I take a break for a month, right?
[2:28:04] Okay.
[2:28:05] And I call her up and I say, hey, I'm going to continue the conversation where we left it off because you got verbally abusive, which I don't appreciate. I'd really like you to not do that. And then I start talking to her about the issues that I had as a child and she gets verbally aggressive and calls me names again. Then what do I do? I mean, we can do this as long as you want, honey.
[2:28:24] Yeah, I think we're running in circles.
[2:28:25] It's been 35 years for me, right?
[2:28:28] Yeah, we're running in circles again.
[2:28:30] No, I'm not running in circles at all. We're not running in circles at all. I'm asking you what happens or what I'm supposed to do if my mother continues to be aggressive or yelling or verbally abusive towards me.
[2:28:48] Well, yeah, you can, yeah. You can kind of stop talking to her because what's the reason?
[2:28:55] Okay, so you agree with me?
[2:29:03] I'm, I agree with you in, in, in a circumstances that you described.
[2:29:09] Of course. Yeah, no, I, I, I, and now I accept that right now. If my mother gives me permission to record and I come back with the recording where she's calling me an asshole, you would agree that I should take a break if the behavior doesn't change. Is that right?
[2:29:24] Yes. Okay.
[2:29:26] Fantastic. So good. I'm glad we had this conversation.
[2:29:31] I'm glad it ended.
[2:29:34] Okay, so that's the role play. And by the way, great job. Great job. Fantastic. Really amazing. Amazing. So tell me what you think.
[2:29:49] I don't know. Everything that you said, almost 70, 80%, I already said myself in one way or another.
[2:30:01] You told me you avoided having this conversation with your wife. Didn't you tell me that?
[2:30:05] Yes, but I had those arguments after this conversation. When we were basically discussing it over and over again after the fact, I gave her all those arguments after the fact because I only basically came to them later on because my my my decision to uh to take this break was kind of spur of the moment even though it was just years and years and years build up to this but then i i was able to formulate my thoughts clearly okay.
[2:30:45] So let's dip into the role play and i know we've talked for a long time so we'll keep this one brief let's dip into the role play again right.
[2:30:50] Okay i.
[2:30:52] Don't like the fact that you're in contact with my mother.
[2:30:59] Okay, again, really? Don't we have, you know, better things to discuss? We have so many problems here.
[2:31:07] I'm sorry, what are you, are you trying to tell me what's important to me? I don't understand.
[2:31:12] Yeah, I don't understand.
[2:31:14] No, but you can't tell me what's important for me.
[2:31:18] I'm not saying, I'm just, I'm mad about the fact that you, this thing is still important to you. Like, move on.
[2:31:26] But it is still important to me. So you've got to deal with that, right?
[2:31:31] Yeah, I guess I have to.
[2:31:33] Okay, good. Okay, so I don't like the fact that you're still in contact with my mother because she's never apologized to me. She called me an asshole when I was just being honest with her. And she abused me as a child. She's never apologized. She's never made any kind of compensation or restitution. And she verbally abused me the last time I talked to her. so i don't like the fact that you're in contact with somebody who's been really vicious to me and has done me the most harm of any individual on this planet what.
[2:32:05] Do you want me to do you.
[2:32:06] I want you to stop being in contact with my mother that's obvious isn't it.
[2:32:12] Yeah but i how do i do this what do you think oh.
[2:32:17] Do you want me to handle it i can handle it.
[2:32:19] How do we how do you.
[2:32:20] Oh that's easy i mean yeah i can i can do all the technical stuff i can just block the living shit out of everything and make sure that she can't contact you, we can change your number if we have to like that don't i i can handle all that don't don't worry about that that that's that's totally i mean i'm i know i think i guess it's a big ask for you so uh but no i'll handle all of that don't worry about it.
[2:32:41] No no this this sounds sounds too, do you want me to block her.
[2:32:53] No no I'll do it you don't have to block her I'll do it I'll handle it all don't worry about it uh.
[2:33:01] That's awkward. I don't know.
[2:33:04] Yeah. And listen, listen, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot to do with me. Uh, I should have been more decisive earlier on. And I apologize for that. Like genuinely, deeply and humbly, I apologize for that. I should have been like the moment she contacted you, uh, after, like, after I wanted to take a break from her, uh, I should have really, you know, I don't know, put my foot down or whatever you want to call it. So, so that's on me. And, and, you know, as you know, things are difficult with parents. And so I hope that you can understand why that's a challenge. And I understand that it's not easy for you. I really do. But it's got to happen.
[2:33:35] What do you mean, this got to happen?
[2:33:37] It's got to happen. It's upsetting for me. It's bad for me. It's negative for me. It's destructive to my peace of mind and my happiness. It comes between you and me. In the same way that if some friend had beaten you up repeatedly, and I wouldn't like that friend of yours, right?
[2:33:58] You're mixing friends with parents again friends.
[2:34:02] Are not i know because morality is universal right in the same way that you don't get a get out of jail free card if you're a parent you don't get excuses from morality yeah but you or or let's say let's say that you had a friend, who uh who prided himself on beating the crap out of his children 20 years ago would i want to be friends with that person would i want that person around us and our children.
[2:34:26] Well she she's not really proud of this she's ashamed but.
[2:34:30] No she's not because people who are ashamed admit their shame and apologize well.
[2:34:36] She just she just can't do this she just.
[2:34:39] Okay so for a sign so she's too full of pride to apologize i don't care why she can't apologize i care that she doesn't apologize which means she's still dangerous she still justifies what she did do you want an unrepentant child abuser around our family.
[2:34:54] She's not around our family.
[2:34:55] Do you want an unrepentant child abuser Around our family.
[2:35:04] No, if you're putting it this way, no.
[2:35:08] No, she's not putting it this way. Did she abuse me as a child? Yes. Has she ever apologized? No. She is an unrepentant child abuser. That's not a weird definition. That's a simple fact.
[2:35:22] It's not a pleasant fact, but it is a simple one. If you don't want an unrepentant child abuser around her family, we've got to regretfully take a break.
[2:35:36] Listen, listen, uh, I think you need a therapy and I think we need a family therapist. And if the family therapist tells me to cut contact with her, I'll do this. I'm not going to do this just because you're telling me to do this. We need a third party.
[2:35:53] Hang on. I'm not asking you to do this because I'm telling you to. I'm asking you to do this because it's the right thing to do. because if there was someone who had harmed you i would not want to be in contact with them especially if they were unapologetic i mean do you remember our vows right that we're going to put each other first you remember that right holding no others before, each other right that you and i are each other's number one priority which means if something is negative for you it's negative for me if something harms you it harms me, if something upsets you it upsets me i have no loyalties outside the family and morality of course right but i need to have loyalty to morality to even be bothered by this right so we are one flesh right i mean we had all these vows to put each other first to be one flesh do you remember all of that right well.
[2:36:52] You can say so.
[2:36:53] Sorry you you didn't take those vows.
[2:36:58] Are you asking me did we take those vows.
[2:37:00] Yeah and.
[2:37:03] Yeah we just had like a formal ceremony without.
[2:37:08] There was some kind of vows right yeah there was some kind of one you're one flesh or whatever right.
[2:37:12] All right yeah.
[2:37:14] Forsaking all others isn't that the phrase.
[2:37:18] Yeah but it's a christian tradition we're not christians.
[2:37:20] Well but we we told those vows right It doesn't matter whether they're Christian or not. I mean, if a Christian doctor writes you a prescription for antibiotics, do you take it?
[2:37:31] Yes.
[2:37:32] Of course. So these are the vows that we took. If I had an affair, it would be putting my happiness above your happiness, right?
[2:37:40] Yeah, and betrayal of kids.
[2:37:41] If I ran up a big gambling debt, I'd be putting my happiness or my excitement of gambling above what was good for you and the family, right?
[2:37:49] Yes.
[2:37:50] Okay. So I don't act in a way that is harmful to you.
[2:37:57] Uh, okay.
[2:37:59] So you shouldn't act in a way that's harmful to me and you being in contact with my mother is harmful to me. So I'm not telling you, I'm reminding you of your vows and of your love for me and to do what is best for me just as I wake up in the morning trying to think about what's best for you and our children. And if something is harming you, I'm not going to do it. And this is harming me. So don't you?
[2:38:24] So, yeah, if it's harming you, I think you need therapy. if it's harming you.
[2:38:30] Why so so if i if i do something that's harming you, the solution is for you to go to therapy so if i if i have an affair just to take an extreme example if i have an affair and you're upset by it and i say well you clearly need therapy.
[2:38:46] No it's it's first of all this is extreme second of all it's different situation It's just some.
[2:38:53] Mom in the past. It's worse, honey, honey, it's worse.
[2:38:56] How is this worse?
[2:38:57] Because this woman abused me as a child and continues to abuse me as an adult. She's a malicious and cruel person and you're inviting her into the family.
[2:39:13] I'm not in rule. I'm not inviting her.
[2:39:16] You are continuing to engage with her after I've repeatedly asked you to stop. Because she's a cruel and malicious person who abused me repeatedly in the past, continues to abuse me in the present, and won't take any responsibility or accountability. And you are inviting this person who is toxic and harmful to me into the family.
[2:39:42] I'm inviting this person. I'm inviting this person. Can we still agree on the fact that, listen, I'm not going to, I can't do this. I can't. I can't. I can't.
[2:40:02] No, no, no, honey, honey, this is marriage. You can do this. That's like me saying, well, I can't be a monogamous, my God. It's like, no, that's marriage. Marriage is monogamy. And marriage is, I and you and I are one flesh. What's bad for me is bad for you. What's bad for you is bad for me. That's marriage. So if you're saying I can't do marriage, that's a whole different thing. But what do you mean? What is it you can't do?
[2:40:28] I can't live with this negativity.
[2:40:31] Fantastic. I agree with you. I agree with you. I don't want to live with people who have abused me in my family orbit. I don't want someone to be friends with my wife who's also abusive towards me. That's a negative experience for me, and it's easy. We just have to get rid of the person who's toxic and abusive, and the negativity goes away. I completely agree with you. We don't want to live with this negativity.
[2:40:55] I don't, I just, listen, I just don't believe that this, just because we're, we, we block her, this will kind of help you with, uh, with everything. Look at all the other aspects of your life.
[2:41:09] Hang on, hang on. That's not your decision to make. You have to ask me what's best for me. What's best for me is you not being in contact with an unrepentant child abuser who abused me. That's what's best for me. So it's not up to you. It's up to what's best for me. And you can't tell me what's best for me or not. That's like telling me what my favorite flavor of food is or my favorite color. You can't tell me that. I'm telling you, I don't want an abusive woman who tyrannized me as a child, who beat me up as a child, who verbally abuses me as an adult as recently as a year ago called me an asshole. I don't want that person in our family orbit. That is not up to you. That is up to our vows. And I promise you this, honey.
[2:42:00] If there's someone who's really disturbing you that I'm friends with, who calls you an asshole, what would I do? Would I cut that person off? Of course I would, because nobody disrespects my wife. Nobody harms my wife and has my approval. Nobody calls my wife a bitch and I'm friends with them. Nobody. Because that's loyalty. and that's putting you first and our marriage first and our vows first and our family first do you understand yes.
[2:42:30] I understand but what kind of what kind of example is this for our kids yes we are acting moral and everything but.
[2:42:38] What what if no no don't hang on no wait what example is it to our children if we act in a moral manner if we're what are you talking about if.
[2:42:48] We're acting by cutting the parents off? What if our child, our son, look at that and think, oh, this is an option. It's on the table.
[2:43:00] It is an option. What do you mean? Of course it's an option.
[2:43:04] No, it's terrible. I don't want this.
[2:43:06] Look, it's terrible. Of course it's terrible. Nobody's saying it's good. Of course it's terrible, but we're going to be great parents. They won't want to detach from us because we're not going to be beating them black and blue and calling them assholes.
[2:43:19] Yes, but it would be because we said, no, you cannot get this candy.
[2:43:27] Do you think, hang on, do you think that I don't want to see my mother because she said no to me getting candy once?
[2:43:33] Yes, but our children could.
[2:43:35] Come on, no, honey, honey, that is a grave insult to me. That is appalling. That is horrible to say to someone you love.
[2:43:47] I'm just saying that our children...
[2:43:49] Come on, you owe me an apology for that one. That's terrible to say that the reason I don't want to see my mother is she said no, because I wanted candy once.
[2:43:58] No, you have... Okay, I'm sorry. You had your reasons for this, but our children...
[2:44:06] No, they're not my reasons. They should be your reasons too, because they're just reasons. You don't have verbally abusive people in your life, especially if they beat you senseless as a child. They're not my reasons. Like, oh, I'm just accommodating his crazy reasons. No. I'm shocked that you don't want this. I'm shocked that you don't say to me, this woman beat you as a child, screamed at you as a child, called you an asshole as an adult. You've tried honorably to connect with her. She keeps escalating. The last thing I'd want to do is have something to do with a woman who harmed my beloved husband in this kind of way. It's kind of shocking to me that we even have to have this conversation.
[2:44:52] Yeah, it's shocking to me, too.
[2:44:55] Well, you can't just mirror what I'm saying. You understand that it's kind of shocking that you want to stay buddy buddies with somebody who abuses me.
[2:45:03] We're not buddy buddies. We I just.
[2:45:06] OK, then there's nothing. If it's not an important relationship, we could cut it. If it's not important to you, great. Then there's no real reason to have any discussion. Because the less important the relationship is to you, the more offensive it is to me that you want to maintain it at all.
[2:45:30] All right. Yes. Yes.
[2:45:35] Good. I appreciate that. Give me your phone. And then you block. And we're done.
[2:45:43] Give me your phone. Block. And we're done.
[2:45:49] Now i mean your mother might try some other stuff but the point is we got the principle across right.
[2:45:56] I'm just afraid that our kids will get this message a wrong way.
[2:45:59] Hey i if your kids get the message that you should not have abusive people in your life isn't that a great message yeah.
[2:46:09] But they can look at the abuse because this generation can see the fact that we're, you know, not giving them candy or, you know, something like that as an abuse.
[2:46:23] No, because if your children know that you love them and you explain to them reasonably why they can't have all the candy they want, they will appreciate it.
[2:46:32] How do you know?
[2:46:33] When they become adults and they still have teeth and they don't have diabetes and they're not obese, they will appreciate it. They won't view it as abusive that you didn't let them live on candy when they become adults? Of course they won't. Because as adults, they won't live on candy either.
[2:46:51] Well, you never know what those kids would do.
[2:46:54] Oh, come on. So this is what I mean by having some kind of authority. And the authority is not bullying. The authority is not you have to do what I say. The authority is act as if you love me and maintain the wedding fast. you can't love someone and love someone who abused them and continues to abuse them that's just not possible so you got to make a choice, all right so that's what i mean by male authority and again it's female authority can work the same way, Leadership for you in this kind of way, holding someone accountable to moral standards is tough, right? And I sympathize because you weren't raised with any male authority. You were raised with women running the show and getting whatever they wanted through escalation and aggression.
[2:47:48] Pretty much everyone who can, you know, coerce you into anything.
[2:47:52] Right. Right. Now, of course, I got pretty emphatic and I raised my voice a little bit, but I wasn't abusive.
[2:47:59] Yeah, I wasn't. I was not. even though I use the same arguments as you, I would just, yeah.
[2:48:07] Of course.
[2:48:07] It's okay to get passionate.
[2:48:08] It's okay to get passionate. You can't call people names, but you can get really emphatic and passionate. It's really important. It's really important to you that your wife supports you against a woman who abused you and continues to abuse you. It's really important. Be important. Make it important. Make it understandable to her how important it is to you. Don't just be, quote, rational. But it really is important to you that someone stand up with you against your mother.
[2:48:35] All right.
[2:48:38] And don't be afraid to be honest in your feelings about that.
[2:48:42] Oh, I'm not afraid. I'm just...
[2:48:45] Well, I don't think you've been emphatic enough that she gets it emotionally.
[2:48:50] She just gets scared because I'm getting really emotional and kind of angry at the situation.
[2:48:56] Tell her to, I mean, if she gets, she says, I'm scared, say, no, no, focus on me. This is about me. This is not about you. Focus on me. This is what I need.
[2:49:06] Focus on me.
[2:49:07] Yeah, focus on you. It looks, if your wife is really upset about something and you say, well, I have these five things I'm upset about, that'd be kind of rude, right? Whoever brings up the thing that they're upset about dominates the conversation.
[2:49:21] Okay.
[2:49:22] And if she interrupts you, don't be afraid to tell her that's rude.
[2:49:27] That is rude.
[2:49:28] It is.
[2:49:31] Okay.
[2:49:38] Have authority. Look, you've reviewed this morally. You've tried to be honorable with your mother and give her every chance to apologize. You have had the conversations. You've done the right things. Your mother continues to escalate and be verbally abusive. you've taken every honorable measure to try and maintain or improve the relationship, right?
[2:50:03] Yeah, that's true.
[2:50:04] Right. So you're in the right. And once you're in the right, never back down. Once you're in the right, never back down.
[2:50:17] I'm not really sure that I'm really in the right because my wife can bring up stuff like, well, aren't you raising voice on your son or whatever? And that's true. I'm not perfect. I'm sorry.
[2:50:32] Okay. So then, yes. Okay. So if she says that, she's like, absolutely. And if we're going to say, and one of the reasons why I'm having trouble, controlling my temper is i still have an abusive person in my life which means that somehow abuse has to be a value or it's not a negative right so help me lower the heat of my temperature by not having a verbal abuser in my life.
[2:51:01] Is it really that simple.
[2:51:02] Well it helps everyone you allow in your life programs your mind And if your mother is in your life through your wife, then she's choosing a verbal abuser over her own husband, in opposition to her husband's peace of mind. You've got to not do that. Now, the effects of that, yeah, that would be great. But I have a tough time being more even-tempered when my wife is siding with an abuser who abused me and continues to. Your mother is sabotaging your marriage by doing an end run around you to get to your wife.
[2:51:47] Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[2:51:48] Okay, so your wife is participating in the sabotage of your marriage. Enthusiastically to some degree.
[2:51:56] I understand this.
[2:51:58] Okay, so you got to tell her. Like, I know my mother, you don't. So you got to just trust me on this. That's authority, right?
[2:52:09] I know my mother, you don't.
[2:52:12] Yeah who knows your mother better you or your wife oh.
[2:52:17] Yeah we answered this this is obvious.
[2:52:20] Right so then you know like if if if my wife says listen we need something we need uh we need new silverware or whatever right or we need new cutlery right do i have a clue.
[2:52:33] You mean do i have a clue.
[2:52:35] No do i have a clue whether we need new cutlery or not.
[2:52:39] I don't know probably not i.
[2:52:41] Don't i don't have i don't have the first clue my wife says um we need a dining room table well my daughter and i like used to like to play in the dining room now she says we need a dining room table do i have a clue whether we do or don't my wife says we need to repaint this so we need new curtains i don't have a clue, but what do i say sure okay yep sounds great yeah if i say i need another microphone, for whatever reason my wife says okay yeah i i you can explain it to me if you want but doesn't really matter because you have authority my wife has authority in certain areas where she knows and cares and i don't know or care much.
[2:53:24] Yeah that's my that's that's one of my issues i'm not.
[2:53:28] Really deferring Okay, so when your wife cares about stuff and it's important to her and it's not important to you, she rules, right?
[2:53:37] Well, she should.
[2:53:39] She should. Of course she should. And so if I say I need X, Y, and Z, right? Like I started doing these Twitter spaces and I tried to get a Bluetooth headset to work with Twitter spaces because the built-in phone microphone is not great, right? Now I could explain this all to my wife and she's fine. She's happy to hear or whatever, but you're like, yeah, get what you need. I trust you. Been running this business for almost 20 years. Get what you need. Right? So the person who has expertise rules. That's the division of labor within a marriage, right? But it requires trust. Now, who has expertise in your mother? You or your wife?
[2:54:21] Obviously, yeah.
[2:54:22] So she defers to you. It's not up to her.
[2:54:28] Yeah, you're right.
[2:54:29] It's your mother and your family, and she has to defer to you. That's what I mean by male authority. And there's things, you know, you've got to defer to her on some things as well, right?
[2:54:39] And i'm trying to say that i think i should start with myself here because i'm not really deferring in in some areas where i should so i'm not really.
[2:54:48] Oh yeah please please and here's the thing too once you defer to your wife in some areas if she pushes back on areas you're an expert in what do you say hey yeah hang on the last three things i just said okay right come on i mean i'm an expert in my mom you're an expert in how many throat pillows we need yeah.
[2:55:06] You're right you're.
[2:55:07] Right I don't know why we need more throw pillows than Adams in the house, but it's a thing. So if my wife says we need more throw pillows, I'm like, okay.
[2:55:18] That's right. That's right. This is like...
[2:55:20] And if you say, stop talking to my mom, she says, okay.
[2:55:26] Okay. Okay. Yeah. This is like a long hanging fruit for me now. It's one of the most obvious and easiest thing to do, but I'm just in a habit of resisting.
[2:55:38] Sure. And that's because you're, you did not grow up with benevolent female authority.
[2:55:44] Oh yeah, you're right.
[2:55:46] I mean, I love what my, I love what my wife does with the place. I feel like I'm walking into paradise. Girly world is beautiful, right? So once you have benevolent female authority, yeah, defer away to it. I mean, what man who's not married gets his blood work done? My wife's like, time to do your blood work. Okay. No, okay. No, okay. Right. So, yeah. I mean, if you're having kids with a woman, then you've got to defer to her authority. And then she has to defer to where you have expertise. So I think that will help. All right. Is there anything else you wanted to mention? Because we're clocking up for three hours here and I'm running out of inspiration.
[2:56:26] I'm so sorry. I just, I really don't apologize.
[2:56:28] I kept it going. there's nothing you have nothing to apologize for i'm just telling you uh that i'm not much good after three hours no.
[2:56:35] Seriously i thought that we're gonna just keep it to like 130.
[2:56:38] No that's fine no problem at all nope i'm happy to have done it i thought the role play was good and this is a very important topic i mean the west is dying for lack of male authority and so this is one of the reasons i wanted to dig into this topic a lot.
[2:56:51] Yeah and the funny thing is that this is actually not happening in the West, so to speak.
[2:56:57] Well, yes, but I mean, the same principles apply. And your son in particular, this is why I also wanted to dig into the topic, is your son in particular needs to see male authority. He needs to see female authority and he needs to see male authority.
[2:57:10] You're so right. You're so right. Thanks. Thanks.
[2:57:15] All right. Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:57:18] Not only that, I think I would like to tackle a few other things that I wanted to tackle initially, I just went into this direction because this was more important. So yeah, absolutely.
[2:57:30] Well, yeah, this is pretty important right now. So yeah, just shoot me up. We can do a public or private call, whatever you like. And I really appreciate your time today and I look forward to the updates.
[2:57:40] I cannot thank you enough. Thank you, Stefan.
[2:57:42] You're very welcome, my friend. Thanks for a great chat.
[2:57:44] Yeah, goodbye.
[2:57:45] Bye-bye.
Support the show, using a variety of donation methods
Support the show
