0:14 - Introduction to Our Conversation
28:33 - Parenting and Relationships
40:00 - Weight and Career Insights
50:36 - Dating Dilemmas
1:04:35 - Unpacking Emotional Connections
1:11:17 - Unpacking Relationship Patterns
1:12:44 - Recognizing Virtue in Choices
1:16:11 - Misunderstanding Interest
1:25:52 - Parental Influence and Support
1:37:54 - The Impact of Neglect
1:50:37 - The Search for Connection
2:01:02 - The Path to Genuine Care
In this episode, I engage in a candid and introspective conversation with a long-time listener who shares their personal journey and experiences with self-discovery, societal expectations, and the impact of parental relationships. We delve into the intricacies of his upbringing, exploring themes of emotional support, family dynamics, and the challenges faced as he navigates adulthood.
We begin by acknowledging my upcoming 20-year anniversary with FreedomAid, prompting the listener to express gratitude for the philosophical insights I’ve offered throughout the years. He recounts his early fascination with philosophy, spurred by a desire to engage in meaningful conversations with his parents, ultimately leading him to study it academically. However, he laments the lack of personal connection and guidance he received during this time, particularly regarding romantic relationships and career choices.
As our discussion unfolds, we tackle the listener's transition from an extroverted to a more introverted persona around the age of 15. I help him unpack experiences from his childhood, including a pivotal moment involving a friend who carelessly damaged a prized possession, which seemingly contributed to his shift in behavior. We examine how this incident, coupled with a lack of attentive parental guidance, began to shape his self-perception and emotional landscape.
The conversation takes a deeper turn when I challenge him to reflect on his relationships and dating history. He candidly shares his struggles with confidence and self-worth, revealing a pattern of seeking out women in unstable dynamics while simultaneously feeling undeserving of genuine love and affection. We explore the possibility that his deeply ingrained beliefs about his worthiness stem from his upbringing, during which he felt overlooked and unappreciated by his parents.
As we analyze the systemic neglect in his formative years, I encourage him to confront the uncomfortable reality that his parents may not have been equipped to fully nurture his emotional and relational needs. Their focus, he admits, was often on practical achievements rather than fostering a deeper understanding of personal satisfaction and fulfillment.
We discuss the importance of recognizing these personal truths: that his perceived shortcomings might not be a reflection of his actual worth, but rather a byproduct of an environment where emotional investment was scarce. I challenge him to consider whether he desires genuine relationships based on kindness and mutual respect or whether he continues to replicate past patterns.
Towards the end of the episode, I urge him to communicate openly with his sister and parents about his feelings of neglect and the impact it has had on his life thus far. This discussion not only aims to foster better understanding within his family but also encourages him to actively seek the supportive relationships that have been absent in his life.
This episode serves as an exploration of identity and the crucial need for emotional nurturing in our formative years. It encourages listeners to reflect on their relationships, the roles their upbringing plays in their personal and romantic lives, and the quest for meaningful connections based on mutual respect and understanding.
[0:00] Nice to chat with you, and I am all ears. I think we have a fairly open topic for tonight, so you will have to lead me in the direction you want to go.
[0:15] Sure. I took some notes, so not to be too scatterbrained about it. So I just want to start. I mean, really just to thank you for everything that you do. I mean, if I'm getting my dates right, it's almost your 20-year anniversary with FreedomAid, right?
[0:37] Yeah, it's coming up. I mean, it certainly depends on how you count it, but yeah, it's definitely coming up.
[0:47] Yeah, I'll be curious to see if you have anything in mind, some sort of celebration, or you don't want to reveal? or i.
[0:55] I don't have anything particular thought of right now but i'm sure we'll i'm sure we'll get.
[0:59] Okay cool i was just curious yeah so yeah um but uh yeah i've been listening probably near the beginning uh definitely when you were speaking in the car uh doing those videos and um the red I was, uh, uh, yeah, both, both.
[1:23] Yeah.
[1:25] Um, and, um, yeah, I, I actually got into philosophy, uh, as like a preteen because, uh, and you'll find this adorable, I'm sure. But because I wanted to convince my parents of things, you know?
[1:41] Yeah, that's good. That could happen.
[1:42] Because when you're a kid, you know, yeah, I'm just like, maybe if I. Oh, go ahead.
[1:47] No, go ahead.
[1:50] Oh, okay. Yeah, I just thought, hey, if I knew logic or how to make better arguments, then I'm sure I could persuade my parents to do things. you know right um so it came out of a frustration of like trying to get my way you know with things um so i bought this audio series of cassettes called the giants of philosophy narrated by charlton heston of all people um anyway that's how i got into it and then i you know during that time i was told you know it doesn't matter what you get a degree in just that you get a degree when you go to college so i love philosophy and, i mean you know i majored for love not for practicality but um i that's where i found you like college was kind of unsatisfactory in terms of like my philosophical like it was very heady and, crusty academic but you know i found you and you're like you had this like kind of punk rock take on philosophy that's like a verb not just like it you know this academic stuff you know that's siloed away.
[3:15] Um, so yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I just wanted to say thank you. You know, you probably saved my, uh, intellectual life. You've been in sort of like a, um, like a prophet or something like, you know, the, the things that you covered, even in the early days, just you covered so much. um you know people are still talking about or still people still haven't understood or gotten or they're coming out with it like they just thought of it but you had already been talking about this you know for however long you have um and i watched that and i chuckled to myself you know and uh just how right on you've been and um just i you know just i i'm just another voice saying like thank you so much for what you've done and what you've sacrificed and all the hard work and all that so yeah well.
[4:14] Thanks I appreciate that it's very kind.
[4:18] Yeah um yeah uh I um I actually have a little story I wanted to share with you uh I saw you speak live in at Stephen F. Austin University in Nacogdoches Texas I don't know if you have any memory of that.
[4:36] I think so.
[4:39] Yeah, it was a while ago. It's kind of a sad story, but maybe a little humorous. I don't know. You can laugh at me if you want. But I actually like, you know, I was like, I'm. a huge fan even at that point. I don't have the calculation of how many years into listening I was, but I had all your books in a backpack, and I wanted to get your autographs on them. I was excited. I'm from Houston, so I took the trip to Nacogdoches. It was a thrill to hear that you were going to be in Texas speaking live, which was pretty awesome. So yeah, I went there. I think Jeffrey Tucker was there. A few others. It was for a libertarian student conference, I believe.
[5:28] But yeah, I saw you speak, and it was great. But I didn't get a chance to meet you personally, which is sad. I was worn out. I'll spare you the mundane details. But I had an opportunity to kind of approach you. but there were other there were there was like a couple that was like for lack of a better term monopolizing your time uh in my opinion as a uh seeker of wanting to meet you and it was in between one of the sessions at the event and i remember i was standing there i saw you talking to this couple and they would just not let you go i thought they were just gonna briefly meet you and then walk away um but i was like you know i'm probably only gonna get one chance at this so, you know it's i'm gonna be out of character and try and be as much of a pain in the ass as i can to actually get here get to meet him you know so i'm standing there waiting politely quote unquote um internally stewing for this couple to like take a breather where i could approach but, But the next session was starting and the attendant at the college was like, okay, you need to go back in the next event starting now. And I said, okay, just one moment.
[6:49] And they're still talking to you. I'm like, what do I do? I'm sweating. He's like, uh, yeah, sir, you need to go in, you know? I'm like, yeah, just throw it one minute. I'll be right there. I promise. I'm just standing there again, continuing to wait. And, uh, I'm like, what do I do? Um, I just, uh, you know, I, you know, I didn't know. So anyway, I tried my best, but eventually the attendant would simply not let me be. I couldn't find a way. I didn't want to just charge in and interrupt and say, excuse me, and bombard you. I just couldn't find a way. So I ended up returning, and obviously the rest is history. Of course, I didn't meet you, but I thought you might find that amusing.
[7:42] Well i'm sorry we didn't get a chance to meet so how can i best help you with tonight.
[7:50] Um yeah um, i i guess uh i i'm sorry uh i don't really have anything I mean, to help with, I just, uh, I just wanted to, I just wanted to, I don't have a particular issue.
[8:16] Sorry, I'm a little confused. So you requested a call-in show, right?
[8:22] Oh yeah. Requested to speak with you.
[8:25] Okay. So, so you requested a call-in show and I mean, you've been listening for a long time and I really, really, really appreciate that. so when i book time to do call-in shows my general goal as you know is to be able to, answer questions help someone with issues or challenges and i mean i don't have to tell you, the format of the call-in shows you know them very well so when you book a call-in show i'm trying to sort of and understand what how i can help you what it is that we can chat about that's going to be of value to philosophy, to the audience as a whole.
[9:06] Okay, you're right. I, this is embarrassing for me, so I didn't have any, I didn't, I, I'm unprepared in that regard.
[9:17] Okay, then we have a topic.
[9:20] I'm sorry?
[9:20] And then we have a topic.
[9:24] Oh, about misunderstanding or foul?
[9:28] Well, no, you can't possibly misunderstand the show if you've been listening for almost 20 years. You've probably listened to hundreds of call-in shows, right?
[9:35] Yes.
[9:36] So you had a goal in, and I'm not upset or anything, I think it's very interesting, right? So you had a goal in sending me a call-in request, right?
[9:47] Yes.
[9:47] If you were somebody who didn't know the show, but you do, and so given that I booked the time tonight, and there's lots of people who want call-in shows, then we may have a topic, which is, why did you book a call-in show when you know what the call-in shows are about, but don't seem to have a question? Which is fine, I'm just curious why that's your approach.
[10:10] Yeah i think uh this is me making a stupid assumption which was i just uh as you said i've listened to a wide variety of call-in shows and they are over an extremely wide variety of topics so i just figured it's, Like, just thanking you and a long-time listener and my perspective of, you know, how you benefited me and all that.
[10:37] No, no, sorry, but you could just drop that in an email, which I appreciate, but you don't book a call-in show, right, for it?
[10:43] Okay, so that's the key misunderstanding I had.
[10:45] No, it's not a misunderstanding, and I'm not trying to be mean here at all, right? It's not a misunderstanding because you fully do understand what call-in shows are about because you've been listening for almost 20 years. So, I would say that you have something to talk about.
[11:04] That's fair.
[11:05] Okay, let me ask you this. How's your life going as a whole?
[11:13] It's going... I'm going to give a rating on a life's condition. Of course, it's going pretty good.
[11:19] You've been into philosophy for how long?
[11:24] All my adult life, I guess.
[11:25] Okay, how old are you?
[11:28] I'm 39.
[11:29] You're 39 okay so i've been part of your life for almost as long as you've been an adult right now philosophy is having values and standards and being able to rate things and right so, let me ask you this then uh are you married uh no okay i had a feeling you weren't, uh do you want to be married with.
[11:53] The right woman yes.
[11:54] Oh come on man that's by definition of course, right? Nobody says that you want to be married to the wrong woman.
[12:00] Just covering my butt.
[12:02] No, don't cover your butt. I mean, don't need to say things that are obvious. So, you want to be married and you're almost 40, right?
[12:11] Mm-hmm.
[12:12] So, why do you think you're not married?
[12:23] Well, um... Well, I will say first, I'm not in shape. I'm not in bad shape, but I'm not in good shape. I don't work out regularly. I've done a lot of stop and start exercising. So that's probably part of it. It's not helping my marketing, so to speak, in terms of physicality.
[12:50] Okay, what's your height and weight?
[12:52] I'm 5'7". I'm like 195.
[12:56] Oh, so you're pretty heavy, right?
[12:59] Yeah i guess i mean yeah i mean yeah i'll say i'll just say yes.
[13:04] It's what's your um what's your pant size 34 yeah you're pretty heavy right yeah.
[13:12] I'm not in shape yeah.
[13:13] Okay uh have you done your bmi yes.
[13:18] It's like 29 so.
[13:20] You're really close to severely obese right yes so you're not a little heavy.
[13:28] True.
[13:29] Okay. And how long have you been?
[13:31] I'm not trying to hide about it or anything. I'm just, I don't, when I look in the mirror, I'm like, I have, I'm chubby, but I'm not like Jabba the Hutt. You know, I'm like, I don't, I, I, I could be heavier, but I'm not, I'm, like I said, I know I'm not in great shape.
[13:48] Bro, just in the interest of my sanity, of course, anyone could be heavier, right?
[13:53] Sure. Apologies.
[13:54] Okay. That's fine. That's fine. So, how long have you been significantly overweight for?
[14:05] It picked up in the last, I would say, five years. Probably around COVID time, picked up.
[14:12] Okay, so how much weight have you gained over the last half decade?
[14:18] Probably 35 pounds, 38 pounds-ish.
[14:22] Okay, and why have you gained that much weight?
[14:27] Well i can only i mean calories lack of exercise but okay lack of exercise.
[14:35] Is another one of these things well obviously right.
[14:38] Yeah i'm not trying to i'm really trying my best to communicate i apologize i i'm thinking on the spot so i apologize i'm not trying to i'm not trying to hide from myself at least consciously um but i will say i you know okay come on let's just be simple.
[14:57] Did you eat more exercise less or both that's all it comes down to.
[15:03] Uh both okay.
[15:04] So you you exercise less right and you ate more okay so why were you eating more.
[15:18] I would say because my priorities weren't I had other priorities and eating helped like give me the energy quote unquote to, do those tasks with more comfort for comfort sorry.
[15:38] I don't quite understand that you had other priorities and eating helped you accomplish those tasks I don't know what that means.
[15:45] Like emotional eating, like I was tackling other challenges and that takes a lot of energy. And so I would eat to, you know, assuage myself, I would say.
[15:57] Okay. And what were those other tasks?
[16:00] A career in technology. It was like, I'm learning, it's not backend programming per se, but it's like front end kind of database administration, which was new to me. I went to school for philosophy, but then I ended up going to a coding boot camp. So I had to do a career shift, and that's probably when the eating picked up. I just had to learn a lot of new skills very quickly under high pressure to get a career rolling.
[16:34] And so are you saying that you started a new career in your mid-30s?
[16:40] Um what year um you said it was five years ago.
[16:44] You're 39 so 34 is that when.
[16:47] You're right i paused to try and give an accurate answer i'm sorry yeah that's.
[16:52] Why i said mid-30s rather than some exact year right.
[16:55] Understood understood so.
[16:57] You started a new career in your mid-30s and what were you doing before that.
[17:00] Well i had some administrative jobs here and there but i hadn't really chose I didn't have a career in the traditional sense. I didn't really think it through. I, I knew I, I sort of didn't know what I wanted to do, but I had some professional positions like working as a administrator in a library and so on, some odd jobs here and there went to answer, just to answer your question at that moment, I was actually just working sushi delivery, which was pretty good money. Um, but it wasn't, it was dead. It's a dead end job. It's not like I can build in that in delivery. So I was searching while I was working there for a shift of something really that I could do. And that's when I landed on programming.
[17:53] Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. If philosophy and programming kind of go hand in hand. All right. Okay. And, uh, what's your dating history? Okay.
[18:02] Um, I, I've had three girlfriends in my life. Um, I didn't lose my virginity till I was 30. Um, so that sort of, you know, I was definitely, it was definitely not an easy path there. um so in my i haven't had a relationship over six months um and the first one ended amicably uh no no sorry uh the first one well it ended amicably but the cause of the breakup was not an amicable event uh she it was going well quote unquote we were i mean like i said it was within six months that all this happened so we dated we met um and uh eventually like everything was going superb and then there was one really bad day where she threw this huge tantrum um i don't even remember what it was about at this point but i was in that moment i couldn't unsee it and i just knew we had to break up so we it was a mutual decision we shook hands and said goodbye sorry you were 30, Uh, yes, yes. 30.
[19:29] Okay. Why do you think it took until you were 30, which is like almost 15 years after you're supposed to, or typically people would start at least trying to ask girls out. Um, why do you think it took until you were, and it's not a criticism. I'm just curious, right? Why do you think it took until you were 32?
[19:45] Thank you. Yeah. Um, if I had to answer you, I mean, I, I spent a lot of time in the friend zone. um like and that's i just mean that i was let on i believe in my opinion um i.
[20:00] Also so uh you just this is like all these details i don't know about okay so you spend a lot of time in the friend zone uh why did you choose to do that because the way that you get out of the friend zone is you ask the girl if she wants to go on a date and if she says no you stop being her friend, it's not complicated i'm not saying it's easy but it's not complicated you're not like change somewhere yeah.
[20:24] I it was ignorance i didn't know that that was the way, um i know that now um but in the moment we were going all sorts of places and i just sort of interpreted them as dates in a way in my brain i don't know i just it was dumb i don't have a good excuse.
[20:43] No it's not dumb i mean it's a it's a dating strategy to keep being nice and fun and enjoyable to spend time with around the girl until she falls for you i mean it's just it's another dating strategy but you do have to have a cut-off date right you're yes correct okay got it, okay so uh tell me a little bit about your early childhood your family and and so on.
[21:11] Sure, my parents are still together they've been together all my life I am I was an only child until age 11 so I have an 11 year old younger sister, Um, I, I, I think, uh, for the most part I was treated well. Um, uh, you know, for the most part, uh, I was faint. Um, so, but very rarely, maybe twice in my whole childhood.
[21:47] Um, I remember having a temper as a kid, but also being like very extroverted, very animated to contrast my later years of introversion, and now I'm kind of becoming extroverted again. But when I was a kid, I was very animated, very passionate, funny, like entertainment and temper, just a lot of energy. I made friends quickly. I had a couple of childhood friends I would ride bikes with. I was super active, climbed treakies, basketball every day, super soakers, the kind of suburban kind of life, like in the movies. We're like middle-lower class. I'm sorry, like middle-lower class. Sorry, lower-middle class. I'm getting my term just confused. But we were stable, but not well-off, nor struggling. We're just pretty average. We didn't move. where I'm from.
[22:56] Oh, come on, man. You've listened to enough call-in shows to know that you need to stay off names and places, right? That's fine. I can delete it. But yeah, just do me a favor and stay off names and places. Okay, and did your parents take a great deal of pleasure in your company? Did they seek you out? Did they enjoy spending time with you?
[23:26] Yes, all of the above.
[23:29] And why do you think you went from extroverted to introverted?
[23:39] Um... My knee-jerk reaction would just be to be, you know, to say socialization. I think I lost my temper. So I did get into a fight when I was in middle school. And I got ISS. And it was the most powerful, like...
[24:02] Sorry, what is ISS?
[24:04] Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, in-school suspension. So it was like a good... Yeah, exactly.
[24:10] Okay, got it.
[24:11] Oh you know i you know my i was a good you know quote unquote goody and kind of still am but kind of a goody goody i never really had like a rebellious phase or anything so when that moment happened it was like uh shocking and i think i i really took it to heart that i shouldn't be so, like animated or whatever so i'm.
[24:34] Speculating here the story is all over the place you got into a fight therefore you shouldn't be so animated i don't follow that logic you've spent a lot of time alone haven't you yeah yeah okay so you're not used to because all these things are clear in your head right and you're not used to explaining things to others which is fine but i don't understand the logic of i got into a fight i got a suspension socialization therefore i stopped being so animated and became introverted none of that hangs together for me in any coherent way just be patient and go over it in a bit more detail to help me make the connections.
[25:15] I apologize so by animated I mean like, acting on my passions without thinking things through or staying calm and when you.
[25:29] Don't have that that's not animated, that's impulsive.
[25:33] Okay, I'm sorry. I misused the term. So, impulsive, I guess, is what I meant.
[25:38] Oh, so it's something like you were impulsive, and then your impulsivity had you hit a kid, you got an ISS, and then you wanted to become less impulsive.
[25:48] Yes, that's a good way of saying it.
[25:49] Okay, I understand. So, why did you hit the kid?
[25:54] Uh he he was a friend of mine or at least i thought at the time and i showed him a basketball card it was i collected basketball cards and i showed him a rare like michael jordan card that i picked up in like a basketball pack or whatever and he asked to see it and as a friend of course i'm gonna let him see it so i took it out of my little binder that holds cards and i showed it to him. He looked at me and he ripped it in half. And then I just lost it.
[26:26] Yeah, I understand that. Okay, I get that. I get that. I mean, he destroyed very valuable property of yours.
[26:35] Absolutely, yeah.
[26:37] So, how you got a suspension, what did your parents say? And how old were you?
[26:45] This would be I think, um
[26:52] Just roughly i don't know the exact age okay.
[26:55] Like fifth grade fifth grade um.
[26:57] So that's 12 11 yeah.
[26:59] That's about like 11 or 12.
[27:01] Okay so what we have nothing of your childhood really except your parents enjoyed your company you got spanked twice and you were extroverted, so you were spanked how did your parents deal with when you would do things they didn't like or disapproved of.
[27:22] Um, it was, um, timeouts, a stern talking to, um, there were arguments, you know, like I would act a certain way and try and justify it. And then I would be made to, uh, understand that I was wrong and to think about it. Um, things like that.
[27:45] Okay. Got it. And how often would these disagreements occur?
[27:55] I would say minimum once a month.
[28:02] Okay, and did your mother stay home?
[28:07] Some years, yes. Some years, no. My dad stayed at the same job for many years during that time, but my mom had some career changes. that some years she was at home and some years she was out off, you know, away.
[28:30] You mean at work, right? Not away away.
[28:32] At work, yes, sir.
[28:33] And how long did she stay home after you were born?
[28:45] Well, I actually don't know. No, that's fine.
[28:49] You might not know. okay and how did you know that your parents and i'm not disagreeing with you of course right but how did you know that your parents enjoyed your company.
[28:58] Yeah just um you know they we snuggled you know when i was a kid and uh they took me places uh they took me and my friends places we had sleepovers um you know they were friends with the neighbors and meeting me uh like get togethers were encouraged um so they let me and my friends get together a lot i was given a lot of freedom you know playing outside and stuff um and you know uh most days uh were you know pleasant i had no reason to think i wasn't uh appreciated well.
[29:44] But none of that and i'm again i'm not disagreeing with you but none of what you said is your parents seeking out your company but rather accommodating your preferences to play with friends or go outside.
[29:53] I see um yeah there were there were family events too i mean i you're right i mean they might have had to take me here and there, but I, yeah i guess i i don't know it was i guess since i whenever when i would spend time with them, i always figured it was because they wanted to uh i didn't really i wasn't really mulling over any alter ulterior motives and when i look back i don't i don't um i don't have any suspicion that they weren't enthusiastic i feel like i'm not answering you but good.
[30:36] No that's that's a good bunch of baffle gap i don't know what any of that means uh well so examples would be you know let's let's go uh for a hike and we'll chat or or let's play monopoly and you know my daughter and i have these like we used to have these like two week monopoly games that we would be dying to continue and you know just really enjoying your company you know they they find you interesting they want to know what you think and feel they they enjoy your jokes they uh you know just take delight in in your presence.
[31:04] Yeah i mean all all the above we played board games we did all that um we didn't have like a regular schedule like you mentioned but here and there there would be a lot of family events like watch movies you know little events and stuff.
[31:20] Okay but family events and watching movies is not your parents seeking out your company so.
[31:26] I was trying to piggyback back off the examples you gave which all the above similarly occurred um.
[31:33] Okay so if your parents really enjoy your company and obviously they take great delight in you and and so on then how could you end up with a friend who would have mutilated a prized possession of yours i'm trying to sort of figure that one out like that's a bit of a psycho friend right yeah yeah okay so how did you not see or how did your parents not see that you had a psycho friend?
[32:03] Yeah.
[32:05] Because parents are supposed to vet your friendships. They're supposed to model, you know, good behavior. I mean, so how did you end up with a friend who was so nasty that he tore up your baseball card? Oh, your basketball card. Sorry.
[32:20] Yeah, I don't know, honestly. I didn't, like, in my child brain, I was thinking, like, he had never shown any, not that I was like attuned to red flags at that age or anything, but like, you know, I had never seen anything like that kind of behavior at all.
[32:43] Okay, hang on, hang on. Come on, man. Are you saying that a kid is capable of that level of horrifying cruelty and meanness, but there was absolutely zero, evidence of any dysfunction beforehand?
[32:59] No I didn't mean to say that what I meant to say is I wouldn't have that I could pick up on as a child looking.
[33:05] Back what did you see in your friend that you wish you had picked up on.
[33:09] Um a kind of apathy um like, you know forgive me it has been a little while but from what i remember um i just remember the way he looked at me when you know right before he tore the card and no i'm not talking.
[33:38] About right before there's no such thing as a red flag right before.
[33:42] Sorry do.
[33:43] You know anything about his look i had some pretty sketchy friends over the course of my childhood but i never had a friend who would do anything like that that's.
[33:51] Horrifying right.
[33:54] Right that's that's purely sadistic right.
[33:56] Yeah absolutely okay.
[33:58] So this guy is a sadist as a kid.
[34:01] Yes and.
[34:02] He's so i'm trying to understand did your parents know him.
[34:07] I don't think i don't they may have encountered him once or twice he was a primarily a school friend okay.
[34:15] And how had you been a friend for how long.
[34:17] Uh just like a year or two but not like intimate like we were just school friends and maybe there'd be an overlapping group event year or there. We weren't close, but, you know, we weren't not close either, just like school friends, basically.
[34:36] Okay. It doesn't sound like we're going to get very far with this topic of the conversation. So let's move on to when you got into puberty and you started getting interested in girls. So how did your parents prepare you for the dating world and talk to you about what to look out for and so on?
[34:58] Uh, there was no talk.
[35:01] Why not? It's pretty important, isn't it?
[35:06] Mm-hmm. Um... Why was there no talk? Yeah.
[35:20] I mean, did they just expect you to figure out dating and kissing and who to vet for and who to go for and to make sure you didn't just go for looks and to look for quality of character? Like, dating is a pretty big and complicated thing, right? So, obviously, they were able to navigate dating all right. so i mean it's incomprehensible to me that parents wouldn't talk to their kids about dating.
[35:51] Yeah i mean uh it definitely there was no formal talk about it that's for sure.
[35:56] Okay i come on man are you weasel wording me what does a formal talk mean like.
[36:02] There was never um a briefing or a.
[36:06] Chat first you said they didn't talk to you and now you're saying there's no formal talk i don't know what that means what's the difference uh.
[36:15] No formal or otherwise there was never.
[36:18] Okay so formal is a red herring.
[36:20] Deliberate uh what was that sorry.
[36:24] For the word formal then is a red herring which is fine i just i'm just trying to be efficient in our conversation right because when you say they didn't talk to me about it and then you say well there was no formal talk i don't know what the word formal means Yeah.
[36:40] Maybe the word deliberate is better.
[36:42] Okay, but then if you say, hang on, if you say there's no deliberate talk, then I don't know what, compared to what? Like, is there a non-deliberative talk? Is there an informal talk as opposed to a formal talk? It just gets confusing.
[36:58] I apologize. Let me try again.
[37:01] No, just did they talk to you about dating?
[37:04] No.
[37:05] Okay, that's all I need. Then don't put in caveats like formal and so on, right? And conscious, and I guess that's confusing. Okay, so they didn't talk to you about dating, and why not?
[37:20] Well, the short answer is I don't know.
[37:22] But you do know. I mean, you're pushing 40. I assume you're still in contact with your parents, right?
[37:29] Yes.
[37:30] Okay, so you've known your parents for 40 years. So if you don't know them, nobody can be known.
[37:35] I have a guess.
[37:37] Okay, let's hear the guess.
[37:39] My guess would be, it's like you suggested earlier, that it just, like, it's sad to say, but I think it was just they were under the assumption that I would just pick it up.
[37:53] Well, but that's not an assumption any parent can afford to make. Because if you're wrong, your kid is screwed. He ends up dating some psycho, he ends up being, you know, he could get a girl pregnant, he could get a stalker, he could get an STD. Like, you can't take that, right? As, yeah, you know, let's just roll the dice, I'm sure he'll figure it out. Like, parents can't do that, right?
[38:14] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[38:16] You could get exploited, you could get your heart broken, really badly like there.
[38:21] Could be any.
[38:21] Number of terrible things right.
[38:22] Absolutely i mean that's like pushing.
[38:26] A kid with no no helmet down a rocky hill on a bike and saying he'll figure it out that's not good parenting.
[38:32] True i think i think if i had to elaborate that it was going to be a kind of reactive thing like they would see who i was dating and then make an observation and i would I think the assumption was I would come to them if there was like issues, but they weren't going to take a lead on guiding me. That's my best guess on it.
[39:01] Okay, but they screwed up, right? Because you didn't date. You didn't date till you were 30.
[39:10] Right.
[39:11] So they have a theory. Let's say that your guess is accurate. I don't think it is, but let's say that it is. So they have a theory that if they don't talk to you about dating, it's going to work out.
[39:25] Yes, that's true.
[39:26] So why the ever-loving hell did they leave it for 15 years since it wasn't working without talking to you about it?
[39:37] It's an open... Yeah, I mean...
[39:41] I mean, it's the biggest disaster in your life, isn't it?
[39:48] Certainly a candidate.
[39:49] Okay, what's bigger? Have they talked to you about your weight? did they talk to you about your career?
[40:01] How have you been parented?
[40:19] All fair questions. And, yeah, I mean, as far as career, it was, you know, we want you to do what you want to do, but just make sure you get a degree. That was to sum up their position on that. Yeah, not a lot of proactive parenting.
[40:46] Okay, what was the proactive? You say not a lot. I assume some. So what did you get that was proactive?
[40:56] Um Yeah, tough to come up with specifics Um, A lot of the... Yeah, I don't have a clear answer for you that's coming to mind. I have some guesses.
[41:40] Well, no, because you said there wasn't a lot, right?
[41:44] Right, right.
[41:45] Right, so that's, again, kind of confusing, right? Because a lot, say there wasn't a lot, right? If I say, I don't have a lot of cars, then clearly I'm saying I have some cars, right?
[42:01] Right.
[42:02] I just don't have a lot of cars. And then if I say, if somebody says, well, how many cars do you have? And I say, well, I don't know. It's confusing, right? Right. right right okay have they talked to you about your weight i mean they must have noticed i assume you see them from time to time so they must have noticed that you were packing on the pounds right yes.
[42:23] Um and it was mentioned um but again it was sort of with a do you know that we know that you know like uh like.
[42:36] What you.
[42:36] Know you're gaining weight.
[42:37] Yeah so they say you're gaining weight and what's happening and what's going on and, right, how can we help and is there, you know, you said it was emotional eating, so I assume your parents talked to you about that or some, are they themselves overweight?
[42:52] Yes.
[42:52] Oh, they are, okay. So, did they give you warnings and say, don't end up like us and here's what we did wrong and so on?
[43:00] Yes.
[43:01] Okay, so did they say, don't have emotional eating?
[43:05] No.
[43:05] Okay, so what did they say to warn you about how they ended up fat?
[43:14] Very standard, straightforward things like just watch what you eat and so on, but...
[43:20] Watch what you eat? That's it?
[43:22] Yeah, just...
[43:23] Oh my god. Come on, man. Watch what you eat? What does that mean? How is that practical? What are you supposed to do about that? It didn't work, did it? no okay so did they ever notice that their advice was about as useful as tits on a ball, and say well clearly that like they had this theory maybe that that you're just going to figure out dating which you didn't right you're 40 you've never had a real relationship, true so that didn't work and you're gaining weight and they say watch what you eat but you're still overweight so that didn't work so they did just hand you these fucking fortune cookies and go on their merry way.
[44:15] Um, yes. When you put it that way, yes.
[44:19] Okay.
[44:19] Um, it was with the understanding that they would be available for support anytime, but I think they kind of just expected me to do the, the practical implementation of it.
[44:32] Yeah. I don't know what that means. So just that, no, no, I don't, please. You got to stop explaining things to me because it doesn't usually help. So have they ever talked to you about your dating life?
[44:47] Not often but yes.
[44:49] Okay and what have they said about your dating life did they say anything in your teens yes.
[44:56] Um just again i'm sorry um i feel like when i explain things they're not sufficient so i'm like on the.
[45:05] No no you don't don't don't the reason i say don't explain things is your explanations are just justifications, and they're foggy and confusing. So I just want to know what they said. Like, you don't have to explain, right? Right, like if I say, oh, what did Jenny say about Bob, right? Oh, Bob's great. Okay, then just, oh, she said Bob's great, right? So I just need a report of what they said. So in your teens, what did they say to you about dating? examples would be are there any girls you like uh have you asked any girls out do you plan to ask any girls out what kind of dates would you take the girls on uh you know is there anything you could work out to make yourself more attractive is the girl you like that you feel rejected right here's how to avoid the friend zone which every man knows about right so these are just questions that they would ask you about your dating life i mean i don't know what they would be, but it might be something like that in your teens.
[46:09] I would say 99% no, but there was one situation where they had noticed I took an interest in a girl and, a fellow violin student and I talked to them about it and they talked with me about it. What did they say? I asked what I should do, how I should approach it. They advised It's like, you know, it was back in the landline days. So just calling, I had to speak to her mom. You know, how do I put this? Where do I go? We decided on a movie. We kind of worked out that one date. But aside from that.
[46:53] Well, hang on, hang on. So you asked the girl out, and she went to the movie with you, right?
[46:58] Yes.
[46:58] Okay. And your parents were helpful with that, right?
[47:02] Yeah.
[47:03] Fantastic. So your parents know now not to be reactive, but to be proactive and help you. Because it worked, right?
[47:14] Yes. I would say, though, and I'm sorry to be difficult, but that was only like one time out of my whole...
[47:21] That's my problem!
[47:22] Okay.
[47:24] That's my problem! Yeah. So the time they helped you, you got a date. Then did they ever help you again?
[47:32] No.
[47:32] Okay. What happened? You went to the movie. Did you ask the girl out again?
[47:38] Uh, no, because it didn't go well.
[47:40] Oh, okay. you didn't like her.
[47:44] And it was mutual. Yeah, we didn't like each other.
[47:46] Okay. So then your parents are like, hey, you know, we've helped you get a date. Let's talk to you more. What did you think you liked about her? Was it just that she was pretty, but you didn't like her personality? Like, what changed?
[48:00] Yeah, when I got back, I definitely we definitely talked about why it didn't go well.
[48:06] Why didn't it go well?
[48:08] Yeah. Yeah, so So, um, I, well, first of all, I was very nervous, but I would say we were both very quiet and I would, you know, as a naturally quiet person at that time, I was like really putting in a lot of effort to start conversations.
[48:37] Sorry. How old were you when you went on the date?
[48:40] Um, 18, 17, I think, something like that.
[48:47] Okay. A little bit late in the game for a first date, but, you know, survivable, right? Okay, so you wanted to go out on a date with the girl, but then you found yourself tongue-tied, so your parents must have known that you were kind of shy, right?
[49:05] Yes.
[49:05] Okay. So if you are a parent to a shy child, what do you do to help them with that? On the date, you'd say, okay, here's some things you can talk about. Here's some topics you might not want to talk about. Be sure to ask her, you can ask her about this, that, the other, and so on, right? So they would give you some help with regards to topics that you could talk about on a date so that you might not feel so awkward, right? Because they're your parents and they want you to be happy.
[49:32] Yeah.
[49:33] Okay, so did they help coach you on things to talk about on the date?
[49:37] No.
[49:38] Okay, so then since they knew you were shy and they didn't help you with topics to talk about on the date, they're kind of setting you up for failure, aren't they?
[49:51] That makes sense.
[49:52] Okay, so why are they setting you up for failure? Why are they encouraging a shy man to go on a date without giving him any coaching on what to talk about?
[50:11] I don't know. I don't know.
[50:13] Why do you think?
[50:19] That I would grow from it?
[50:22] What do you mean you'd grow from it? You'd grow from having a disastrous first date in your life? How the fuck are you going to grow from that?
[50:30] I guess they... I'm playing devil's advocate here. I assume like...
[50:35] Okay.
[50:37] Try...
[50:38] Sorry to be annoying. But no, why... So, you're single, and you're almost 40, and your parents have done nothing to help you date, really, right?
[50:49] Right.
[50:50] That means your parents want you to be single.
[50:56] Understood.
[50:57] Okay. So, why do they want you to be single?
[51:03] I don't know. I can't... I don't know. Um... I've never honestly asked myself that question. I don't see any reason. I don't know. They're together. I'm honestly at a loss. I don't know why.
[51:35] Do you live close to them?
[51:37] Yes.
[51:38] And do you see them a lot?
[51:40] Yes.
[51:41] Well, that's probably why. They want you to be around, to keep them company.
[51:47] Do you mean like codependency?
[51:49] I mean, I don't really want to put a label on it because that could mean different things to different people. Okay. Okay. Are they very happy with each other?
[51:59] Oh, yeah.
[52:01] And they really enjoy each other's company?
[52:04] Yes.
[52:05] How often a week are you over there? Or do they visit you?
[52:14] Um well right at this moment i'm actually staying with them.
[52:19] You're staying with your parents.
[52:20] Yes like.
[52:22] You're living with them.
[52:22] Yes why.
[52:25] Are you almost 40 and living with your parents.
[52:26] Um yeah i know how this sounds given our situation um it's just a long story. They're having medical issues and I wanted to save money.
[52:43] Okay. So they want you to take care of them?
[52:51] Yes.
[52:52] And when did you move in?
[52:56] A little around a year ago.
[53:00] And before that, you were living close, right?
[53:05] Four hours away, yes.
[53:06] Oh, four hours away. So you wouldn't see them very often, right?
[53:09] Yeah, just for here and there. Yeah.
[53:12] Okay. Now, have your parents talked about the fact that you're living with your parents is probably going to mean that you're probably kind of undateable?
[53:24] Yes, they did mention that.
[53:26] Okay, so why would they... And they're also aware, I assume, that your time is very much running out.
[53:39] Yes. I mean, I think there's nuance to that, but I'll...
[53:43] No, I'm all for the nuance. Tell me the nuance.
[53:48] Well um i don't i think, in my opinion i would say that my time that i still have some time left but it's not okay.
[54:04] How much time do you have left.
[54:05] Yeah i i don't i can't i i can't i don't know um it is it is tight for sure but it doesn't feel like right i'm right on the precipice and i'm just rambling so i'd rather not i mean i don't want to waste your time so.
[54:19] You're almost 40 at what age do you think it becomes pretty much impossible to to have a wife and some kids and so on.
[54:33] Yeah great question um, Yeah, I don't have a specific. I was just...
[54:48] Okay, let's work backwards. Are you too old at 80?
[54:53] What's that?
[54:54] Are you too old when you're 80?
[55:00] For what?
[55:01] Okay, what do you think we're talking about here? What was my question?
[55:10] What's that?
[55:10] What was my question?
[55:13] Like how much time do i think i have.
[55:15] Right are you too old to have a wife and children at 80 yes okay what about 70, yes 60, probably all right 50.
[55:34] More okay but very tight.
[55:37] Okay why is it tight tell me what the problem is at 50 Let's say you want, say, two kids.
[55:45] Yeah, I mean, there's physical degradation.
[55:48] Yeah, your sperm is getting older, you're getting older, you're getting creaky, and you're going to need a woman probably 20 years younger.
[55:58] Right, right. That's a good point, yeah.
[56:01] Right? And you're going to want an intelligent woman who's capable and competent and moral and reasonably attractive and so on, right? And then why the hell would she go for your half? Century ass.
[56:13] Good point.
[56:15] Also, right now you're 40, and you have virtually no experience in relationships.
[56:25] True.
[56:26] And you have no experience in any reasonably successful relationship.
[56:31] True.
[56:33] So if you were a manager, right, and you were hiring someone who'd only had a couple of jobs for a couple of months over the past 25 years, would you think that person would be any good in the workforce?
[56:49] No.
[56:50] You have no skills.
[56:53] True.
[56:53] To have and sustain a romantic relationship. And you'll have fewer skills relative to your age when you're 50.
[57:04] Uh-huh.
[57:06] Right now, you'd have to get a woman 10 years younger. And if she has no experience in relationships, and you have no experience in relationships, how's it going to work?
[57:19] True. I see your point.
[57:23] So the women that you dated, did they have experience with successful relationships, like, I don't know, at least a couple of years in the past?
[57:36] Um, yes, two of them did, yes.
[57:38] Okay, so two of them had had successful relationships of a couple of years, right?
[57:43] Yes.
[57:44] And how long did those relationships last with you?
[57:49] Well ironically the most recent one had had a nine year, ex but that one only lasted a few months even though we knew each other for a few years before that so she was able to.
[58:06] Sustain a nine year relationship with another man but she couldn't do more than a couple of months with you.
[58:12] Yes why not, because, it became apparent that, she wanted it to be casual, and there were arguments and then we just we had a bad break Quote unquote Okay so she didn't.
[58:49] Want A serious relationship with you.
[58:51] Yeah it was like sort of on the fence Like ambiguous Okay.
[58:55] So why didn't she want a serious relationship with you, How old was she.
[59:04] She was 39 When I was 35.
[59:07] What The fuck are you dating a woman pushing 40 If you want a wife and kids, Sorry, I'm a little confused. Can you help me out?
[59:23] No, I mean, that's an irrational thing.
[59:25] Okay, did your parents say, no, you can't date a woman who's pushing 40 if you want a wife and kids?
[59:32] No, but...
[59:33] Did they know you were dating a woman who was pushing 40 and you want wife and kids? I don't understand. Why would they say something?
[59:39] I'm trying to tell you. I'm sorry. It happened very quickly. it was like a whirlwind kind of thing it was just a few months I hadn't even expressed much to my parents about it no one really knew it was dramatic from beginning to end in good ways and bad so I was sort of caught up in it it happened very quickly and it ended very quickly, so there was never really much time for anything to solidify it was very nebulous and foggy and situationship-y, it was just not a good thing.
[1:00:16] Okay, so you got involved in a dramatic, I guess, kind of hysterical relationship. So isn't that exactly when you'd need your parents the most? This is almost like saying, my illness was too bad, I couldn't go see the doctor. It's like, well, if your illness is bad, isn't that exactly when you go see the doctor?
[1:00:34] Very, very true. I did talk to them about it, but only at the end, when it got really bad.
[1:00:42] Okay um so and you talk you go ahead would you say that you're close to your parents.
[1:00:48] I would say so.
[1:00:49] Okay so why wouldn't you tell them how long it had been since your last relationship was it 30 to 35 um.
[1:00:58] The last one was actually i think two years before that so like 30 32 33 and then 35 were like my three relationships.
[1:01:17] So you had a bunch of failed relationships, and your parents have a successful relationship. So they would be good people to go to for advice, right?
[1:01:28] Right.
[1:01:29] So why wouldn't you go to them for advice and say, well, I really like this girl. It seems a little chaotic. Can you help me out?
[1:01:35] Yeah, that's true. I, again, I would say two things. first that I was definitely just like caught up in the excitement and there was really, I didn't have a symptom. Like you used your doctor analogy. I didn't have any symptoms at first. So I didn't even, I thought it was all going well.
[1:01:56] Well, that's exactly when you talk to your parents, right? You'd say, man, I just met this girl. It's fantastic. I think she could be the one I love her to death or whatever. You'd be enthusiastic and you'd talk to your parents about it.
[1:02:07] True but i i did not i i was sort of doing it on my own i didn't no.
[1:02:14] But why wouldn't you want to share your good fortune as you felt at the time with your parents.
[1:02:22] Uh i think because i i knew i know that there's like a puppy love stage when you first meet but i didn't really know her that well so i didn't really feel safe she was so new you know um i didn't feel comfortable um making that introduction just yet one.
[1:02:45] I don't know about introducing her to your parents but you you talked to your parents and when you say that i mean.
[1:02:50] I'm sorry that you were dating yeah by introduction i just meant like introducing that there that she's in my life you You know, to just talk about it. That's what I meant. Sorry.
[1:03:00] Okay. That's fine.
[1:03:01] Yeah.
[1:03:02] So, but why would you hide that you're dating? I mean, I assume you talked to your parents. Did you just not tell your parents that you're dating?
[1:03:09] No, I would. In that case, I guess you could say I was kind of vetting. So I didn't know for sure whether this was going to stick or not, or what even it was at first. So I didn't want to, like, bring it up and create some start. like i didn't even know i didn't know her very well at the time and so there was really nothing that i could that would be productive to talk about even because i didn't know what i was even.
[1:03:38] Sorry but you don't you don't make that decision for other people like you don't make the decision well it's not productive to talk to you about it right you you share what's going on in your life and you let them make that decision.
[1:03:52] That's fair.
[1:03:54] I would imagine that given that your parents had been spectacularly not helpful in the past and maybe you suspected them unconsciously of sabotaging or not helping you with your relationships, that you kept it from them because you didn't want any negative feedback they might consciously or unconsciously provide.
[1:04:15] I think that's definitely possible, but it would be unconscious on my part.
[1:04:21] Yeah, that's fine.
[1:04:23] Okay.
[1:04:23] But there's a reason why, if you say that you're close to people and you're falling head over heels in passion with some woman, you talk to them about it. You wouldn't hide it from them.
[1:04:34] I agree. Very true.
[1:04:36] So you're not that close.
[1:04:41] Again my feelings for this person while there was you know an amazing attraction there was also an uncertainty right.
[1:04:51] That's why you talk to people.
[1:04:53] Oh yeah.
[1:04:55] Uncertainty is I need an outside eye right.
[1:05:00] Yeah yeah that's true so.
[1:05:07] You're not that close. What about the girl when you were 32? Or the woman, I guess, when you were 32. How old is she?
[1:05:18] She was my age, same age.
[1:05:20] Okay, and what happened with that relationship?
[1:05:29] So.
[1:05:30] Well, how long did it last?
[1:05:32] About six months.
[1:05:34] Okay. And how did that end?
[1:05:37] We ended on good terms. I ended it. We had gone on some dates, and there was this moment that she exclaimed something in a store. I don't even remember what the word was, but it was kind of like erratic behavior. And there were a couple instances like that.
[1:06:04] I don't know what you're talking about. She exclaimed something in the store that was erratic behavior. How on earth am I supposed to know what that means?
[1:06:12] I'm just saying what happened.
[1:06:14] No, you're not saying what happened. I don't know what happened. She exclaimed something. It was erratic. I don't know what that means.
[1:06:21] I'm sorry. Yeah.
[1:06:22] You don't have to apologize. I'm just, as I say, you spend a lot of time alone and you're not used to communicating these things to people, but I don't know what you mean.
[1:06:32] So we would be like walking around like a mall type area and you know uh walking next to each other and then all of a sudden she would uh like yell something in a store like a quiet store and draw attention and what would she yell um, just like ooze and oz um oh she addressed.
[1:07:01] It she's like oh you know she'd get it really excited.
[1:07:05] Yeah but um like very oddly like that would draw stairs you know so.
[1:07:12] I don't know imitate to me what what did she do.
[1:07:14] Just like a like a like oh you know like oh like like kind of like we own the place and there's nobody else nearby and she's just feeling completely, 100% empowered to just scream at the top of her lungs.
[1:07:30] Okay, is she screaming at the top of her lungs in a store? Does she have Tourette's? I don't understand.
[1:07:36] Not in like a rage way, but like in an enthusiastic way.
[1:07:40] Okay, give me an imitation. Like, what would she sound like?
[1:07:42] I'm just right. Louder than that, but it's just like, you know, yeah, I mean, I don't, I can't do an imitation. I mean, it's just a loud yell of enthusiasm.
[1:07:58] Towards something like sex noises in uh clairs or something okay so and how long into the relationship did she make these sounds like five months oh so she was fine for five months and then she started screaming in stores yeah basically and did you ask her why she did that?
[1:08:21] Yes, but I don't remember what she told me, to be honest. I was like, what's... She just acted like just happy as a pig in mud. I don't know. We never got to the root of it.
[1:08:47] Did she, I mean, she admitted that she did it, but she just said, well, I just, I'm enthusiastic or.
[1:08:52] Yeah. Something to that effect. Yeah.
[1:08:55] And was there anything else that was troublesome to you?
[1:08:59] Yeah.
[1:09:04] She had. Yeah. like a very uh inconsistent slash odd uh like employment history of like going job to job at her the job that she was at uh there was like a lot of drama, um that she would be a part of um and there would be a lot of time spent talking about that that was energy draining um she had this cat which would get out quote unquote of her apartment and we'd have to like go like on a search party to look for it, and this happened like almost every time i was there like probably 20 times in the time that we were seeing each other it was just very strange um i i i've never owned a pet growing up so I don't think that's normal like I saw it as irresponsible and so there are just things like that that kind of added up and then I was just like, I'm gonna break up so, she didn't flip out or anything like my first girlfriend did but she seemed sad but she understood and, we left on good terms, quote-unquote.
[1:10:30] We didn't hate each other at the end, but it was just a sad, kind of bittersweet parting, but I don't regret it.
[1:10:39] Sorry, regret what? What don't you regret?
[1:10:45] Oh, I don't regret it.
[1:10:47] No, what don't you regret? I don't know what you mean. Are you referring to dating or breaking up?
[1:10:52] I don't regret breaking up with her.
[1:10:53] You don't regret breaking up with her?
[1:10:55] Yes. Okay.
[1:10:58] Now, do you know why, have you figured out why you choose women that you don't like?
[1:11:17] That's a funny question you know it's a good question I would.
[1:11:23] Say it's the most important question isn't it because if you keep wasting your time dating women you don't like you're going to spend the rest of your life alone yeah agreed so that's a pretty important question isn't it definitely so what if you got.
[1:11:45] Yeah i guess i don't have a talent for recognizing signals maybe that.
[1:11:51] No that's not a talent thing that's not a talent thing.
[1:11:57] A skill that you.
[1:11:59] Develop no no no why do you choose women you don't like Like, it's not a skill or talent or magic or, you know, I guess I just wasn't born six foot six or with a great operatic singing voice. Like, it's, you've listened to this show for 20 years. I've talked about it about a zillion times, right? Have you read my book on relationships at all?
[1:12:21] Oh, real-time relationships?
[1:12:22] Yes.
[1:12:23] Yes.
[1:12:23] Okay, great. So then you know that love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous, right? So do you choose virtuous women? Now, why don't you choose virtuous women?
[1:12:44] I would say I probably aren't seeing them for who they really are, but probably who I would want them to be. um i i mean i don't yeah i mean it's true it it doesn't, i'm i'm just saying like i don't you know in the case of the third one the the kind of psycho like the one that ended badly um you know we sort of bounced off each other so okay first of all relationships hang on oh go ahead all.
[1:13:30] Relationships that end end badly there's no good end to a relationship.
[1:13:35] That's right because.
[1:13:37] You've invested time and effort and energy and.
[1:13:40] Then you.
[1:13:41] Wasted it all right and worse than.
[1:13:42] Wasted it.
[1:13:43] Now you got to recover from it you're a little heartbroken you're a little scarred you're a little jumpy right.
[1:13:48] So.
[1:13:48] Okay, but you're saying this one had a really bunny boiler dramatic exit, right?
[1:13:54] Right.
[1:13:54] Okay, so how did this one end again?
[1:13:57] Yeah, that one, yeah, she one day just found somebody else out of the blue.
[1:14:07] So she just dumped you and went with another guy?
[1:14:10] Exactly, yes.
[1:14:12] And why do you think she did that?
[1:14:17] Um... I don't think she liked me. I mean, I'm not trying to be a smart ass. That probably goes without saying. You know, because she did that.
[1:14:31] She doesn't like me. Did she like you more and then like you less over time?
[1:14:38] It's hard to say, but that would have to be accurate.
[1:14:43] Okay. And what did she grow to dislike in you?
[1:14:50] Um probably that i wanted to spend more time um i wouldn't say, in my in my opinion i would say that i'm not a clingy person but um when we would get together which was only once a week she had a busy career um and i had a career too um we had an agreed on once a week a saturday but a couple of saturdays uh she was you know may have made other plans, and it's sort of you know i was i would check in on wednesday if we're still gonna be on did.
[1:15:27] You go out for.
[1:15:28] Uh just like two months two.
[1:15:33] Months and you only get together once a week and sometimes she didn't even show up to that so what did you have like six dates.
[1:15:39] Yeah like less than that like five five dates but we were formerly uh co-workers we weren't dating as co-workers but we had known each other for two years prior to that oh.
[1:15:55] So you had a lot of time to vet each other.
[1:15:57] Yes and.
[1:15:58] You go on five dates and then she dumps you for another guy.
[1:16:00] Yes okay.
[1:16:02] So what did you miss.
[1:16:11] A lot. I missed... I guess I misunderstood her initial enthusiasm and passion at the beginning for...
[1:16:38] I misunderstood. Okay, I don't know what any of that means. Okay, so how long into the two-year working relationship did you decide you wanted to date her?
[1:16:46] It was after that. There was a period of time we didn't speak because she left. There was like a four-month period. And then after that, we reconnected. And then that's when it started.
[1:17:01] Okay, so in the whatever, however many, year and a half or whatever, in the time that you worked together with her, you weren't attracted to her and you didn't want to date her, is that right?
[1:17:12] Yeah, I thought of her as a co-worker. I honestly didn't have thoughts like that. She was my superior, indirectly. And it was just a co-worker relationship, that's it.
[1:17:28] So you weren't attracted to her?
[1:17:31] I knew she was pretty, but I didn't, you know, like, yeah, I was attracted to her. But I didn't think I didn't act on it in any way. We were co-workers, you know, so I put it out of my mind. And I honestly never thought about it, honestly, during that time.
[1:17:48] I was attracted to her. I put it out of my mind. I never thought about it.
[1:17:52] Like, I never thought about it.
[1:17:53] Does that make any sense to you?
[1:17:55] I'm sorry. I'm trying to be clear.
[1:17:57] No, you're not. No, you're just. I mean, do you know that your stories don't really hang together very well?
[1:18:03] I guess not.
[1:18:05] Why do you think? It's not a big criticism. I'm just curious. You just say stuff, and it doesn't connect to what you just said. It's like when you said, oh, yeah, I'm close to my parents. Well, I didn't tell them about this woman I was dating. Well, I was attracted to her, but I put it out of my mind, and I never thought about her. You just say things in the moment that don't hang together. Like you say, oh, my parents really sought out my company, and it's like, well, yeah, they let me play with friends, and then we rented movies, and there were family, but that's not seeking out your… So, the things that you say are kind of like scattered in don't hang together. They don't logically have cohesion, if that makes sense. Like, I really want a wife and kids, but I'll date an unstable woman who's 39. right I'm close to my parents but I hide that I'm dating.
[1:19:03] I understand the criticism.
[1:19:05] I mean it's not a criticism I'm just pointing out a fact, that's fair that it's hard to get to know you and your life because there's just all these contradictions that I alone seem to be noticing, right, which is not particularly great because if you study a philosophy show for almost 20 years and you study philosophy in university and you're a computer programmer, aren't you supposed to figure out contradictions and inconsistencies?
[1:19:47] Yes.
[1:19:49] So what, I mean, I'm genuinely curious. I'm genuinely curious here, right? There's no criticism here. I'm genuine. Like, what do you think is going on?
[1:19:59] Um, I could have theories, but, um, yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm falling in that like a bunch of traps or something.
[1:20:09] Um, I don't know what you mean by traps now. You mean, you think I'm setting traps or something?
[1:20:16] I don't, I, um, and it's a, it's a fair demand, but my perception is that you have a high standard for precision and language.
[1:20:27] I just don't want contradictions three times in three sentences or sometimes three times in the same sentence that's not a very high standard is it.
[1:20:35] When you put it like that definitely not.
[1:20:39] Okay and I'll just give you the example right so I you said you'd work together with this woman for two years and then she said you what she went away for four months she came back and then things started right and I said were you attracted and you said no she was just a co-worker well I knew that she was pretty, but I didn't think of her in that way. Well, she was actually a superior, but she was a co-worker. But she wasn't my direct superior, she was another superior. Were you attracted to her? Yes, I was attracted to her. Like, it's just chaos, man!
[1:21:07] That's fair.
[1:21:09] So why is there all this chaos? In, in...
[1:21:13] I guess I feel like I want to be, ironically, I'm trying to say all that to give you the full context, but in doing so, it sounds like contradictions.
[1:21:23] No. Contradictions do not give the full context. Contradictions are just confusing. If you say, I wasn't attracted to her. I was attracted to her. I put it out of my mind. I never thought of it. That doesn't hang together.
[1:21:46] Yeah. I get what you're saying.
[1:21:48] I mean, if you're attracted to a woman, you can't just put it out of your mind.
[1:21:54] We don't have switches like we're.
[1:21:56] Not like like the basement switches in an electrical panel.
[1:22:00] Yeah i mean sometimes you're attracted to a woman and you're thinking of like hitting on her or, there's a there's something i can do or like there's thoughts like that going on in your mind like there might be something here i what i was trying to say is i recognize she's pretty but I also recognize this is my job so I'm going to put that out of my mind, I don't consider that a contradiction I consider that context that's what I was trying to communicate but then you're saying.
[1:22:33] That you never thought of it again.
[1:22:38] I never thought of, when I was working with her, I never thought of it again in terms of that there's something I can do to act on it. That there's any sort of future here, that there's any sort of potential of me being successful in this pursuit of this particular pretty girl.
[1:22:56] Okay, so then you remained attracted to her, but you chose to act on it.
[1:23:04] Absolutely.
[1:23:04] Okay, so then when I said, were you attracted to her, and you said no, what you meant was, I was attracted to her, but I had decided not to ask her out.
[1:23:15] Yes.
[1:23:16] Okay, but you can understand why that's confusing if that distinction is not made.
[1:23:21] True, absolutely. I'll take responsibility. That's my fault.
[1:23:24] Again, I'm not trying to put any burden on you. I apologize. I'm not trying to put any burden.
[1:23:29] You're putting a burden on me in terms of not making contradictions and wasting time on the call. So I'm trying to accommodate that.
[1:23:37] This is human communication that what you say needs to make sense.
[1:23:43] I'm trying. I'm sorry.
[1:23:45] No, see, again, you keep apologizing like I'm attacking you or something. I'm trying to help.
[1:23:51] Yeah, definitely. I get that. And I'm trying to give you the accurate information.
[1:23:59] And failing yeah i you're too smart to fail at that right this is not super complicated well obviously.
[1:24:06] Not we just had to talk about.
[1:24:07] No no no what i'm saying is that you're not failing like you're striving and it's just not working out right that's.
[1:24:18] Exactly what i feel like.
[1:24:19] Well i don't think that's what's happening though.
[1:24:22] Okay that's fair.
[1:24:24] I think you rush things maybe because you don't want to be boring and then because you rush things they become incomprehensible which means people lose interest and then you feel like you're boring right i don't think you're frankly i don't think your parents pay much attention to you at all and i think you don't feel interesting, so then you try to rush through explanations and then people end up tuning out because it doesn't make any sense and then you're like oh well i guess i'm not interesting, your parents don't pay attention to you there's no fucking way that you can be in the dating pool for 25 years and never have had a successful relationship and your parents aren't all over you with that if they care about you right your parents know that you want to get married and have kids right yes you've told them hey i want to get married and have kids or you've said it in some way right yes okay so your parents know that you have a goal right yes and when did you think you first mentioned or when do you think you first mentioned that to your parents um.
[1:25:37] I'm sorry uh say that again.
[1:25:39] When do you think your parents were first aware that at some point in your life you wanted to get married and have kids.
[1:25:52] Um for for many years a couple decades.
[1:25:57] Okay so your parents have known for like 20 or 30 years you may have said that as a kid right let's just say 20 years so your parents have known for 20 years that you want to get married and have kids right yes right and it's their job to guide you in that direction. I mean, they were willing to say, go get a degree, right?
[1:26:16] Yes.
[1:26:17] So they're willing to guide you in that direction, right? So I don't think you know what it's like to have people genuinely committed to helping you achieve your goals. To really take an interest in you. Go ahead.
[1:26:33] That resonates with me. I think you're on to something. Yeah.
[1:26:36] Yes, I think so too. So how is it possible that your parents have let you rot in the back rooms for a quarter fucking century without sitting you down once and saying, how's this life goal of yours going? You're a son. We care about you. We want to help you achieve your goals. It's our job to help you achieve your goals because we're your parents. I mean, what do y'all talk about?
[1:27:13] Yeah, you paint an accurate picture, I think, morbidly. But yeah, we talk about a lot of practical concerns. um my goals um i have a couple business things um um it's kind of like a, a time of transition um.
[1:27:41] Okay i'm not i'm not i can't do any more abstractions with you sorry i can't i can't i won't i just won't okay let me ask you this so you graduated from university in your early 20s? So did 22, 23?
[1:27:55] It was a little later, 25-ish.
[1:27:58] Why did it take so long to get a degree?
[1:28:03] I dropped out for a year and, because, I wanted to get into the working world, but then I realized pretty quickly after a year that I was so close to finishing my degree, I should just go ahead and finish it.
[1:28:28] Okay, but that doesn't explain 25. You graduate at 17, go to school at 18, you're supposed to graduate at 22, that's another three years, so that's one of the three years. What happened to the other two?
[1:28:39] Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to piece together the time here.
[1:28:46] Okay, forget it. Did your parents guide you through school, help you through school? Did they talk to you about how it was going? Did they give you good study habits? Did they help you figure out how to socialize because you were a shy kid? Maybe you were more extroverted at this point, right? Did your parents, were they committed to helping you succeed in the educational sphere, like in university?
[1:29:07] Not at the university level, but through elementary and intermediate and high school, yes, they were.
[1:29:13] Okay, fantastic. So they know how to help you in an educational environment. So then what happened with their help when you're in university.
[1:29:22] Um, it vanished.
[1:29:26] Okay, so they lost interest. Like, why wouldn't they help you? Did they know you were going to drop out? Did they tell you, no, no, no, finish your degree, let's figure this out?
[1:29:36] Like, yeah, if I had to guess, I would think that, you know, they prepped me and they obviously worked with me throughout the rest of my schooling and thought, No, you already said that.
[1:29:53] So they didn't help you in university. Okay. So you graduate university and then you end up with a bunch of shitty jobs, right? You're a sushi delivery driver, you do administrative shit, and it's just crap, right?
[1:30:03] Yes.
[1:30:04] Okay. And this goes on from 25 until your early 30s, right?
[1:30:09] Yes, correct. Okay.
[1:30:11] What did your parents do about helping you with your career, helping you with your choices, realizing that you went off the rails in university, you went off the rails in your career? What did they do from 25? When did you go for your... Oh, no, it was almost a decade, wasn't it? It was your mid-30s that you went reoriented to computer programming, right?
[1:30:31] Yes.
[1:30:32] Okay. So for 10 years, you're floundering and drowning in a sea of inconsequential dead-end jobs, right? what the fuck did your parents do?
[1:30:45] Nothing proactive. They were there if I had struggles, but not really asking me about my long-term...
[1:30:58] Right, so they don't care. You can't watch someone flounder for a decade, not date for a quarter century, screw up in school and lose three years out of a four-year degree. and not intervene, and not say, kid, you know, something's not going right. Maybe it's us, maybe it's you, maybe it's the world, but we've got to sit down and figure this out, because we love you, and it's agony to us to watch you flounder like this, because we want to help you.
[1:31:33] Yeah.
[1:31:35] So why didn't they? Why have you had to invent everything yourself? Why have you had to figure out everything yourself? Why? The whole point of parents is they help you because they have more experience. They're supposed to be your mentors. It doesn't end at 17 or 12 or 14. Oh, you figure out the dating shit on your own. That's not parenting. Because all I've heard about your parents is they were fine with you playing around elsewhere and they played a couple of board games with you and then you would go on sleepovers and then there was family events. Like, what have they invested in you so that you don't have to invent everything yourself, which is exhausting and impossible?
[1:32:32] Uh-huh. Um. Yeah. Uh. It's true. There was nothing there in that sense. No help. In guidance, like serious kinds.
[1:32:58] So why didn't they care? Do they not care? Are they cold people? Are they indifferent people? Do they have no emotional depth? Like, why don't they care? I mean, I say this as a father myself. Right. Right? I mean, my daughter is almost 16, right? So she's got social stuff. There's some dating. I got to talk to her about these things because I really want to help her achieve what she wants to achieve in life as a whole and socially, right? So I'm not just going to let her. I'm just going to sit back and watch TV and let her flounder and figure all this stuff out on her own. That's awful. That's cruel.
[1:33:38] Right.
[1:33:38] It's cold is what it is.
[1:33:41] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:33:45] Do you think your parents didn't notice that you weren't dating and your career sucked? You didn't have a career and you had no girls and, like, did they not notice? Genuinely, did they not notice? Did they not know these things?
[1:34:04] They must have known.
[1:34:05] Of course they knew. Okay.
[1:34:07] Yeah.
[1:34:07] So why don't they care? Why did they just watch you? I picture two parents standing on a beach when there's a heavy storm across sea and their kid is like half fucking drowning, gulping seawater, right? There's an undertow and they're just watching there. Just watching. You let us know if you need anything, that's fine. They're just staring.
[1:34:39] Yeah.
[1:34:41] You're drowning.
[1:34:45] On the one hand, that definitely makes sense, and I agree with you. On the other hand, it is odd to me that they could be so supportive in other ways, like the day-to-day, but when it comes to the serious stuff, that it just turns off like a switch. It never turned on, as far as I can see.
[1:35:12] But what do you mean by supportive in the day-to-day? I don't know what that means.
[1:35:15] Just like, you know, you asked about my childhood, like, uh, like through all through until high school, you know, it was very involved with homework and, you know, helping with school and stuff. And like, you need to go to college, but we, you can do whatever you want. Just, uh, just that you get a degree, but the rest is up to you. um so just kind of like there's a lot of like initial talks well i mean not not a lot i guess but there's some like there's a thing a pattern of like initial conversation that's very lightweight and then you know a decade of silence that you know we you know some like of not checking in of not following up on maintenance and further guidance. You know, there's like the start, but not the follow through.
[1:36:09] Yeah, again, I don't know what any of this means. So let me ask you this. When you went from extroverted to introverted, or I think we said impulsive to more self-restraint, did your parents notice that transition? I think that was after you hit your friend who tore up your basketball card when you were 12. Did your parents notice that transition? Did they notice you going from outgoing to shy? And then, like, did they notice that? Did they care? Did they try and guide you through any of that? Did they give you any feedback? Did they listen? Did they ask questions?
[1:36:41] They made observations, but it was just kind of throwaway comments here. They're not in the context of guidance or anything.
[1:36:49] Okay.
[1:36:50] Not like, you know, we've noticed this change. Why did this happen? Not a lot of curiosity.
[1:36:56] Okay so what do you think it means that your parents don't care about the quality of your life and how to help you even though they're in possession of knowledge you said your father's kept his job for his decades right so he knows how to keep a job and you're you were floundering going from place to place they've obviously maintained their marriage right so your parents are in position in possession of knowledge that you desperately need in order to be happy they see you clearly not achieving what they know how to do and they don't lift a fucking finger. So what does that mean about you in your heart of hearts? Why don't they do anything to help? Why do they just watch you drowning?
[1:37:54] I i don't know honestly um.
[1:37:57] Okay let's take it third person you're at the beach you watch two parents who are watching their kid drowning and not lifting a finger yeah what would what was what why would the parents just watch a kid drown and not lift a finger to help.
[1:38:17] From the outside it would just be like sadism.
[1:38:19] Right right yeah they maybe they enjoy feeling superior maybe they enjoy watching you flounder maybe if you don't get a quality woman in your life that quality woman is going to say your parents hearts are fucking icebergs i don't like, they're cold to you they don't care i don't like them maybe they want to keep you around so you can take care of them when they get ill which is kind of what's going on at the moment right, certainly not about what's best for you, right so you don't know what it's like to be left you don't know what it's like to be genuinely cared for and i really sympathize with that i really that's a it's an awful position to be in, i mean i spent a lot of my life in that situation too just so you know i mean i i i have great empathy for this right i mean it wasn't until i got into my 30s and met my wife that i finally figured out what it was to have someone actually care about you.
[1:39:32] I appreciate that. I'm sort of absorbing it a little. Okay.
[1:39:41] Are you not interesting or are your parents cold? In other words, are they warm-hearted people, but they just find you really boring? You know, because sometimes that does happen, right? Right? I mean, there are people that I meet who I find really boring.
[1:40:01] Yeah.
[1:40:01] So are your parents not in, like, what's going on deep down in your heart of hearts? why don't your parents care because you've observed this your whole life 40 years right and i'm not saying they never cared about anything as you say they helped you with homework and and so on right but but that's giving you competent skills or skills in competency that's not caring about you as a person that's caring about you as a skilled robot, right so why don't they care is it because they're you're interesting but they're cold-hearted it, or is it because you're boring and uninteresting?
[1:40:46] My initial reaction would just be that it's more likely that they're cold.
[1:40:53] Okay. Is their coldness news to you as of an hour and 45 minutes ago, or maybe 10 minutes ago?
[1:41:02] Um, honestly, I don't think, I think it was unconscious, but having talked with you, I think you're absolutely right. And I've recognized it.
[1:41:13] Okay, so let's go back two hours ago before you had this call, right? So, what was your answer two hours ago in your unconscious? Deep down, what was your answer as to why your parents watched you drown and didn't lift a finger and did this for 25 years plus?
[1:41:41] Negligence, uninterest.
[1:41:44] That's just another way of saying that they didn't act. But what was the cause of their inaction? The kid drowning in the choppy waters off the sea, right, in the sea, the kid drowning looks at his parents, not lifting a finger to help him, and they say, what does he say to himself? Why are his parents not helping him?
[1:42:11] Right. It has to be either, selfishness or blindness or sadism or some version of that.
[1:42:33] Well, it's not blindness because they can see it.
[1:42:36] Yeah.
[1:42:40] But why, what causality what dominoes would fall and I think it would be something like the kid would say I must be such a horrible kid that they are fine with me drowning, I must be so unpleasant to them, I must be so hateful, I must be so disruptive and nasty and negative, and they must hate me so much that watching me drown makes sense. Like, you have to make it make sense. We always have things that are unconscious that are trying to make things make sense.
[1:43:21] Right.
[1:43:23] Now, he might say, these complete assholes, you know, they're just cruel sadists, and if I get to shore, I'm going to smack the crap out of them. Right? He might have that thought. I'm not saying he would go and do it, but he might have that thought. Like, I hate these people. They're so cold-hearted, they just watch me drown, even though I'm a great kid. So, someone is at fault.
[1:43:45] Right?
[1:43:46] Now, given that you didn't think your parents had any faults, right because i asked you quite lengthy conversations or i asked you quite lengthy questions about your parents in the first half of the conversation right that was not accidental right right and you were like no they're great you know they didn't i only got spanked twice uh you know i got some timeouts i got lectured they yes they showed great interest in me do you remember that question yes yes i said did they seek out your time did they take delight in you did they right and then i said later i said well were you even raised right did you did they give you any advice right so you had a belief that your parents were great but if your parents are great but they don't help you with any of your life issues but your parents are great that must mean that you're terrible that you're boring that you're uninteresting that you don't matter that you're not like they're they've got great big hearts but you're just not worth caring about, because you're so unimportant and your life is so immaterial and it doesn't matter. And right. There has to be despair down at the bottom there, because if you praise your parents, you praise them not being interested in you, which means you must be completely uninteresting.
[1:45:02] Right. Yeah, all that follows through, I see.
[1:45:11] Do you want me to blow your mind completely?
[1:45:14] Go for it.
[1:45:15] All right. You're a seasoned listener. So I knew that when you called me up and said you had nothing to talk about.
[1:45:24] Right?
[1:45:24] Because you called me up saying, I'm completely uninteresting. I have no problems. I need no feedback. Right? I just want to tell you the story, Stef, of that time in Texas you ignored me.
[1:45:40] No.
[1:45:41] No, no, I'm not saying that I ignored you, but that was the general, I really tried to get to see you, but you didn't notice, you didn't care. I'm not saying that, but that was the gist of the story was I was rejected by someone who was my mentor. Right? Right? That's not an accidental story.
[1:46:08] It's a true story.
[1:46:10] Of course. And how many true stories do we have? Millions. And you chose that one. So you called, you wanted to book time for me, right? And you call me up with nothing. I have no questions, and you say, well, I guess I'm unprepared, or you know what I mean? So you were inviting me to take your parents' place and find you annoyingly uninteresting.
[1:46:44] Huh.
[1:46:48] And you were calling me up to break that cycle. But you didn't know it, I think, at the beginning of the call.
[1:46:55] Definitely not.
[1:46:57] But you see it now, right?
[1:47:01] I see you know i've never not i've never thought of my i definitely have weaknesses but i've never told myself i'm uninteresting um.
[1:47:12] Okay so that is you have to explain why your parents didn't show any interest in you and why they still don't and the only answer is that they're cold-hearted narcissistic selfish whatever's right who have no capacity to bond with their child and view the child as an object, a resource provider, an ego boost, someone to eat dinner with, someone, right? But not with needs and thoughts and preferences of your own that they have to help you with.
[1:47:43] Right.
[1:47:44] Right? Like, I'm using this computer to do record this call-in show. I don't ask the computer if it wants to play Candy Crush. It's just a tool that I use for my own purposes. It's a thing.
[1:47:55] Right?
[1:47:55] That's the selfish view of other people. they're just objects I don't ask my computer what it wants to do I just have it do what I want it to do right, so if your parents don't have any problems you're the problem, gotcha they don't have any problems showing care interest and attention to other people only you which must mean you're boring as fuck.
[1:48:28] Right.
[1:48:30] Someone's at fault.
[1:48:31] Right.
[1:48:32] Because your life is kind of a mess.
[1:48:35] Agreed.
[1:48:36] Right? So why is your life a mess? Well, I've just made bad decisions, and I this, and I that, and I guess I just misinterpreted how much he was into me, and, like, none of that hangs together.
[1:48:49] Good point.
[1:48:50] Why is your life a mess? Because your parents don't care about you, and you don't see that. now please understand i'm not saying they don't care about you in any way shape or form and they're completely indifferent as to whether you're here or get hit by a comet but you, qua you let's use a little latin here right you with regards to you as opposed to like a kantian thing right yeah you as for you rather than you as it serves them.
[1:49:22] Yeah i'm i agree that's.
[1:49:25] Because they've not helped you with any of your life goals as an adult even though they have succeeded in those goals, it's one thing if i'm a japanese teacher my daughter's desperate to learn japanese and i don't teach her, right, that's kind of being a jerk, right? But if I don't know Japanese, that's different. So if your parents' lives were pure chaos, and they never achieved anything themselves, and they had no stable relationships, and they had no career, then that would be one thing, right? We'd have criticisms, but not because they were in possession of knowledge that you needed, that they were failing or refusing to transfer to you. yeah yeah so why is your life a mess i'm not saying it's only a mess but you know in terms of the work and love thing it's not going super well although the work thing is better than it used to be right definitely okay so with regards to love why has love not worked for you.
[1:50:37] I have no ability to recognize valid interest in me, qual me.
[1:50:41] Right. Right.
[1:50:43] And that basically puts me in a position where it's always kind of a wild card.
[1:50:52] You just have to cross your fingers and hope that lust and, what did you say, the puppy dog stage or the, right? Right. You just want to hope that the initial flesh collision dopamine is going to sustain something and it doesn't.
[1:51:05] Right.
[1:51:07] Right.
[1:51:13] Thank you yeah um i'm i'm fully uh in agreement and shaken but.
[1:51:21] And that's why you tell stories that don't hang together so that people lose interest and find it too confusing and baffling and abstract and right and then they just they can't stay focused i mean i'm willing to fight through it, that's fine, but that's why people, I mean, that's why you tell these confusing stories that jump all over the place and contradict themselves. It's partly because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Well, I don't want to take up too much people's time and attention, and then you sell these scattered stories, people lose interest. It's like, yeah, I kind of knew that I was not going to keep their attention, right? What age did you go from extroverted to introverted?
[1:52:07] Um, probably 15.
[1:52:09] Right.
[1:52:10] Um, maybe a little earlier. That's an estimate. Um.
[1:52:20] Now, I know that you think it was the friend tearing up the Michael Jordan card, which I'm not saying it wasn't, right? But what do you think might have happened that you went from extroverted to introverted and your parents didn't help you with it?
[1:52:33] Um... Not sure, I'm thinking.
[1:52:48] Okay, do your parents want you to be in a successful, happy, loving, stable relationship with a virtuous woman? Does that aid their access to your resources, your time and attention?
[1:53:02] No, it does not.
[1:53:04] Okay, so if your parents view you as a means to an end for themselves, rather than the Kantian sense, in a means to an end of yourself, right?
[1:53:13] Mm-hmm. Right?
[1:53:14] So if your parents view you as a means to satisfy their needs and preferences, does it serve that need if you get into a quality relationship with a quality woman?
[1:53:29] No, it does not. Right.
[1:53:31] So that's why they didn't teach you about dating.
[1:53:34] And maybe why I remained introverted for so long.
[1:53:39] Well, you remained introverted because if you'd stayed extroverted, you would have attracted more girls. Right. And your parents didn't want you to do that because I would assume that that would interfere with you providing resources to them. Now, they did want you to do well in school because nobody wants a kid who's flunking out, right? So they helped you with your homework, but not because of you.
[1:54:05] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[1:54:11] For status and not have a failure as a kid, right?
[1:54:15] Right.
[1:54:17] And they're like, well, we don't care what you do, just get a degree.
[1:54:21] Yeah.
[1:54:22] Well, what's that for? When you said, I want to take philosophy, did they say, oh, that's interesting, what's the long-term strategy, how's that going to get you a job, what are the career prospects, like, let's figure this out, right?
[1:54:36] Right. There was a small period like that, but it didn't last long.
[1:54:41] Right. And it didn't take.
[1:54:43] Right. Right.
[1:54:46] So they just wanted you to get a degree, right? So, I mean, I swear this is true. A lot of parental stuff is like they just want an answer for their friends.
[1:54:57] Yeah.
[1:54:58] Oh, what's your son doing? Well, he's taking philosophy at this university. Oh, wow, that's great. As opposed to, I don't really know, man. I mean, he's taking a couple of jobs. Like, that feels bad for parents. So it's a vanity thing.
[1:55:14] For sure. yeah i absolutely understand what you're saying and i'm uh shaken by it.
[1:55:27] So somebody appreciate that and and somebody who focuses on you and helps you achieve your goals, that's a superpower.
[1:55:41] Yeah and uh based on our conversation i guess i don't even know what that's like.
[1:55:48] You don't you don't know what that's like.
[1:55:50] Which is almost more horrifying.
[1:55:53] No that like great news man holy shit holy shit balls batman this is great news that.
[1:55:59] Like the the experiences i interpreted as support or so or instrumental not, you know claw me as you put it.
[1:56:08] Yeah for sure so.
[1:56:09] I've misunderstood for my whole life in a way.
[1:56:13] Yeah when i when i was in grade eight i took an adult computer science course um i i was in a grade 13 uh writing course my mom crowed about this to all oh he's taking adult computer science courses he's in a writing course that's five years or six years ahead of his uh it's five years ahead of his great she was just thrilled but she got to brag about me all the time yeah did it have anything to do with me, I really, I actually, I would just, I would just go to that adult computer science class. I just programmed games. I didn't read disk IOs from a pet on a five and a quarter inch floppy. I didn't care about any of that stuff. I just went and programmed video games. In fact, I remember that the teacher saw me playing a video game and he's like, no games in class. And I said, I programmed this. And he said, no, you didn't. And I hit control break and I showed him the code and he was like, man, that's good. It was a space exploration game. It was a very cool game, by the way. But anyway, so it wasn't for me. And the reason why I'm saying this is great news is if your life isn't going well, but everything is right, that's really bad.
[1:57:30] Yeah. I get what you mean.
[1:57:34] Right? I mean if you're losing weight too much right and then you start eating well and you exercise and you try and retain the weight or gain the weight and you try and put on muscle but you just keep losing weight even though you're doing everything right you're probably going to die right, or at least be very sick right whereas if you say geez I keep losing weight well what are you doing well I'm sitting on the couch and eating a thousand calories a day it's like well that might be it right, So it's really good news if your life isn't working out and you've missed a big thing like, holy crap, my parents don't focus on me. That's really good news. Yes, I agree. And that's why when these girls come along, you just grab at them and it just falls apart in your hands. Because you don't know, I think, deep down, and I sympathize with this again and I understand this, I really do. You don't know what it's like to have people care about you qua you. And to be dedicated to making you happy relative to virtue and your preferences. Rather than giving you a pat on the head because you did what they wanted.
[1:58:55] Yeah, I think that's spot on and horrifying at the same time. It is horrifying.
[1:59:03] It absolutely is horrifying, but incredibly liberating.
[1:59:07] Yes.
[1:59:09] Because I want that for you, brother. That's why I fight so hard on this whole combo, right? And I appreciate your patience with me, right? Likewise. I want you to have people like, okay, am I running an agenda here? Am I trying to get you to do something for me? I'm not, at least I hope I'm not, and I think it's fair to say that I'm not. I'm just trying to get to the truth and to get you to a place where you can be loved and be cared for regarding you.
[1:59:37] Yeah.
[1:59:39] But in order to be loved, you have to realize when you're not loved. In order to find a quality woman who's capable of loving you, you have to recognize that your parents are not anomalies. Maybe they're a little further along in the extreme, but your parents are not anomalies. There's not a lot of people who know how to focus on someone else without an agenda and really work to help that person without trying to bring ego into it or some theory that needs to be fulfilled or something like that.
[2:00:13] Right.
[2:00:15] Or to, you know, this is a free call. You're not paying me. I mean, I think it's a good call for people to listen to because a lot of us go through this. Like, I think most people go through this. You're not alone in this at all. Most people don't know what it's like to be genuinely cared for for themselves. And as a result of that, not only do they not experience the beauty of receiving love, but when you really devote yourself to someone else's happiness and it's mutual, it's the greatest thing in the world. like there's absolutely nothing better man.
[2:00:47] It must be, I hope I get that sometime.
[2:00:55] Well, yes, but in order to get to where the water is, you have to recognize when you're drinking sand.
[2:01:00] Yeah.
[2:01:03] And listen, what I'm talking about with regards to your parents, it's just a theory that I think fits the facts. But if I were in your shoes, I would sit down with my parents and say, why didn't you guys talk to me about dating? Why didn't you help me with university? Why didn't you help me with my career? And ask if they're curious about it. And see if they're curious about it. See if they want to know more. Or if they're just like, well, you've got to figure these things out for yourself. Well, this, well, that. Well, it's like, but you're my parents. You're supposed to help me, right? Especially as you say, like you've got an 11-year younger sister. But especially if you don't have siblings. So sometimes siblings can help you with the dating stuff, or maybe the career stuff. So you don't have siblings, you can't get advice from your younger sister. So it's really them, right? They chose to have a single, but what is effectively a single child, right? So you're 15 and your sister is like six, right? No, four, sorry, she's four. Yeah, sorry. I could do math at one point in my life. So, she's not going to give you any dating advice, right? I hope, right? So, your parents chose to not have siblings for you, and so it's up to them to teach you about dating and to help you with careers and all of this sort of stuff, right?
[2:02:30] Right.
[2:02:31] I mean, to say you're going to figure this out on your own, it's like, okay, well, what are you guys for then? yeah right if if you have a teacher i mean my daughter had a a teacher once about a particular subject and she would say can you help me with this and she's like the teacher's like well you'll figure it out and i'm like so what's the point what's the point of the teacher there's no teaching, right now can you imagine you you go to try and someone you hire someone to teach you piano and you're just thrashing around and you say could you where did the like what should i do what are these, oh, you'll figure it out. It's like, well, then why am I paying you? If I'm not going to figure it out, I don't need to pay you. You're not a teacher. So they're only your parents if they parent you. They're not sperm and egg donors and landlords. They're your parents if they parent you. And I don't see the parenting, but again, it's just a theory. So if you talk to your parents and say, I really feel like some stuff was missing here.
[2:03:36] Yeah.
[2:03:37] Like, help me understand, right? And see what they, maybe they've got fantastic reasons that I can't conceive of, right? I'm the opposite of omniscient, obviously, right? But if you have conversations with them, and I'd love to hear, if you do, like, what happens with that, but I'm rabidly curious. Like, I guess the last topic of which we can touch on for a minute or two is, and obviously don't get into any details because she's not here. But I guess your sister is in her late 20s, right? How's her life going overall, like in terms of love and career?
[2:04:16] She's had more long-term stable relationships. She's only had two. And what is going on?
[2:04:26] Sorry, she's had two. Go ahead.
[2:04:29] Two relationships total that I know of Is she in a relationship.
[2:04:34] Now or is she single?
[2:04:35] She's in a relationship now And how long has that mom been.
[2:04:38] Going on for?
[2:04:39] Yeah, a long time like six years five years maybe Why isn't she married? Yeah, I don't know the answer to that.
[2:04:54] Do you want to get married?
[2:04:56] I think so. She's mentioned it before, and my parents have talked with her about it.
[2:05:02] Okay, so have you talked with her about it?
[2:05:07] I have not, actually.
[2:05:09] Why not? Don't you want to help your sister get what she wants? What her values are?
[2:05:18] I see where this is going.
[2:05:21] Um now i'm not trying to make you feel bad because you didn't even know this was a void in the family right yeah but you know i'd say no have a call with her and say do you want to get married what's happening with this guy you know there's that old sort of cliche when's he going to make an honest woman of you kind of like it's been five years i mean how long do you test drive the car, right?
[2:05:42] Yeah. No, I need that. I think, you know, your theory is growing efficacy because I think I engage with my sister similarly to how my parents have engaged with me.
[2:05:59] Yeah, just surface level emptiness, maybe if you need something, right?
[2:06:03] Oh, sorry, what was that?
[2:06:04] Like surface level detritus, maybe if you need something.
[2:06:09] I definitely have attempted to go deeper, but talking with you now, I haven't, I could have done better.
[2:06:20] And does she have the career that she wants or is she, if she's employed, is that, is she doing what she wants?
[2:06:26] Yeah, she's got a thriving career.
[2:06:29] Okay, well, that's good. And have you helped you at all with your career?
[2:06:34] No, but.
[2:06:36] But boy, you guys, man, it's like interstellar distance. This is like intergalactic. Okay, so you also might ask her why she never helped you with your career. Not some big accusatory thing, just like, I mean, obviously, you're better at careers than I am. Why wouldn't, did you ever think of saying anything to me? Or if not, why not? Or whatever, right?
[2:07:03] Yeah, I have guesses, but it's worth an ask, for sure.
[2:07:08] Right. So, yeah, I mean, it's funny because the difference between the beginning, and you'll hear this when you listen back, The difference between the beginning of this call and now is night and day, as far as connectedness and conversation goes.
[2:07:27] I appreciate it. I mean, I'm sorry for fumbling it.
[2:07:30] Don't apologize. I'm glad that we got to someplace useful. You have nothing to apologize for. You can't know till you know, right? I appreciated the challenge. And you put up a very admirable and noble fight. And I appreciate that, too. I really do.
[2:07:48] I want to earn.
[2:07:49] My daily bread right.
[2:07:50] So that's.
[2:07:51] Good it can't it can't be boring right and it's not this was.
[2:07:54] Very interesting i i came in with like all this ammunition of singing your praises complimenting you i had a list of all the things that i've learned from you that i wanted to sing your praises on and now i'm chilled to the core uh of like this new paradigm and it really is a Colin show for sure.
[2:08:14] Yeah. Okay. Well, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:08:18] Absolutely. Absolutely.
[2:08:20] All right. All right. Well, I appreciate that and great job on the call. And I look forward to an update and I certainly wish you the very best. I'm sure you'll be able to get what you want out of life.
[2:08:28] Thank you so much. Same to you.
[2:08:31] Thanks, brother. Take care. Bye-bye.
[2:08:33] Bye-bye.
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