0:13 - Introduction to the Call
0:32 - Challenges with Therapy
1:53 - Overwhelmed by Parenting
5:58 - Understanding Childhood Impact
9:18 - The Role of Moral Judgment
14:52 - Shifting Perspectives on Relationships
19:00 - Parenting Under Stress
28:40 - Connecting with Your Child
32:07 - Breaking the Cycle of Emotion
39:55 - Managing Overwhelming Emotions
52:27 - Recognizing Unjust Patterns
58:31 - Conclusion: Embracing Change
1:03:06 - Understanding Moral Judgments
1:07:26 - Coping with Parenting Challenges
1:13:21 - Sleep Deprivation Struggles
1:16:58 - Managing Mistakes in the Kitchen
1:21:39 - Navigating Toddler Interactions
1:26:39 - The Importance of Consequences
1:28:57 - Differentiating Consequences from Punishments
1:36:14 - Honesty in Parenting Emotions
1:39:54 - Connecting Through Anger
In this episode, I engage in a private call with a dedicated mother striving to navigate the complexities of parenting two young children while managing her own emotional well-being. Our discussion delves into her experiences with various therapists and the challenges she faces in balancing familial responsibilities, personal issues, and the stress associated with raising two under two. The caller reflects on childhood memories, highlighting the impact of parental stress and the quest for strategies to become a calmer, more patient parent amidst overwhelming demands.
We explore the call's core themes, particularly the struggle for emotional regulation during moments of chaos. The mother shares candid anecdotes about stress, particularly during early mornings when her young child wakes up early and demands her attention. We examine her feelings of frustration when she recognizes a lack of patience and understanding in herself during these times — a situation she attributes to the overwhelming nature of parenting young children, particularly amidst sleep deprivation and the accompanying stress.
Addressing her childhood experiences with parental dynamics, I guide her through understanding how her upbringing influences her current parenting style. Specifically, we discuss the normalization of chaos in her past and how it manifests as a struggle to maintain calm during similar situations with her children. I suggest that awareness of her emotional triggers, combined with techniques to manage stress, could greatly benefit her interactions with her kids.
As our conversation deepens, we also touch upon her reflections of moral philosophies, emphasizing the importance of distinguishing between personal experiences and recognizing universally accepted moral standards. We discuss her inclination to compare her childhood to what is inherently normal for children and how this impacts her perspective on good parenting practices.
We tackle the fundamental question of how to respond to challenging behaviors from her children, particularly the two-year-old's need for autonomy and boundaries. I propose strategies that focus on proactive problem-solving, such as designating specific toys as shareable to prevent conflicts, instead of reactive responses that may inadvertently reinforce territorial behavior.
Overall, this extended dialogue serves as a space for the mother to explore her feelings, receive philosophical insights, and be reminded of the universal truths about parenting. She leaves the call equipped with a clearer understanding of her emotional landscape, the importance of patience, and practical strategies to facilitate a calmer, more enjoyable parenting journey amid life's inevitable challenges.
[0:00] All righty. So this is Stefan Molyneux. And thanks very much to this lovely young lady who very kindly agreed to allow her private call with me to be released to donors. Please don't share it anywhere else.
[0:14] And I think you'll see, of course, that things go quite different in the private calls. Of course, if you want to set up your own private call, freedomain.com slash call to do so. And again, thanks to this lovely young lady for her kindness in releasing this to you and here we go.
[0:32] So what am i trying to get out of this call so the what struck me the most in or there there were two things that i i guess i i should still work and so let me let me start with saying that i've gone through four therapists so far and they just don't produce enough results i guess and um i have some some childhood stuff that i i think i should still work through um the mindset around parenting me being stressed with two kids and uh the challenges with uh juggling family uh and then like my own personal problems and then a relationship like it's it's just a lot and i'm trying i was trying to work through stuff with therapists but they just don't produce the results that you do within two hours right.
[1:20] Right well i i.
[1:21] Appreciate I appreciate that.
[1:22] I mean, obviously, the stuff I'm working with is sort of pure philosophical stuff, which I don't imagine too many therapists or experts in. So hopefully it helps this way. And yeah, so thank you.
[1:35] Yes, so what I try to get is, I guess there's two things we can go down on. One is like my own personal childhood. And if you remember the call, it was me, like me being very overwhelmed and super duper stressed with two under two. And...
[1:54] Like how do how do i deal and then you said at one point that's uh like it's my mother trying to get me into her story but my mother was always stressed she didn't have time to play with us and then and you said that uh this is she now wants me to be stressed because and now i can see it whenever i tell her about something she's like see see um i told you uh so she wants me to be in on this narrative um and you said that it's probably a combination of like how my mother and my father treated me and i think there's stuff to be uncovered there uh and that's hopefully will i don't i don't know how to get basically i'm all over the place i don't know how to get to the other side of this of of this headspace where i'm in is it talking about it and getting in all out is there like breathing strategies where that will help me in the situation when when i'm super stressed or when something is happening that is upsetting me and uh yeah it's unsettling for me uh like how do i get to the other side of being a better person is it, talking through everything and realizing where i stand and how i got to this place where i am now like you've you've done therapy so so can you can you show me what is the roadmap like what are milestones i'm gonna come across to get to the other side sure.
[3:21] Sure no i mean this how to become a good person is kind of the whole gig so um and you know.
[3:27] If it's any consolation.
[3:28] I still struggle with it so uh we're we're in the trenches together and maybe we can exchange some tips. So for me, the purpose was, or the process was, that I had to compare that which is familiar to that which is moral. Right. So everything we grow up with feels natural or inevitable or just the way things are.
[3:59] And what I try to do, and I think this sort of mirrors what goes on in other major intellectual disciplines like science and so on. So science is there to get us to the truth, not just what seems true based upon our small five-foot-and-a-half, eight-like perspective on the surface of the planet, right? Because it looks like the stars circle around the Earth, but it's not true, right? The sun and the moon look the same size, but they're not. And so trying to surmount our own personal or limited experience with that which is objectively and universally true is the real challenge in life.
[4:50] And so I'm sort of trying to do to history and childhood and so on is to denormalize it and compare it to universal standards, right? Like it looks like the earth goes around, sorry, it looks like the sun goes around the earth, but in fact, the earth goes around the sun. And so denormalizing our personal perspective by comparing what we experienced to universal values, to morals, is the essential, I think, purpose of these kinds of conversations. And you can, of course, you've heard this a zillion times on these call-in shows where, Somebody is trying to get me to normalize the horrors they went through by inviting me into, you know, that laughter thing where everyone's like, oh, yes, well, I got beaten, ha, ha, ha, right? So they're trying to draw me into the normalized perspective. And I respond with a sympathy that is objective about the suffering that they went through as children. And I'm sorry if that's too abstract, but hopefully that makes some sense as a whole.
[5:59] Yes, exactly. got it got it so so you're saying it's it's getting to like it's it's you are cured not cured but you get to the other side by being able to take the outside view and compare it and be stefan molyneux and compare it to saying hey this is not normal don't yeah this this is not moral what what is happening here what is the moral thing to do instead of going like being flushed ashore with the emotions and doing the normalized response.
[6:34] Yeah, so if we grow up with, and I sort of use moral and immoral, you know, fully recognizing that it's not like 100%, right? I mean, but I grew up with, a sort of violent, crazy mother, a distant and uninvolved, like physically geographically distant, like other side of the world, uninvolved father, cruel family members, an oppressive school system, like the whole, and sort of uncaring and indifferent society. And I think that's true for a lot of us. I don't know that there are these, maybe there are now, but certainly when I was a kid, there weren't these giant pockets of lovely, wonderful, caring for children kind of situations. And so I grew up with children are to be seen and not heard, or as my mother used to say when I'd stand between her and the television, well, you might be a pain, but you're not a windowpane, that kind of ha-ha German humor. And so I just had to look at that and say, what is this relative? What was my childhood and the childhood of other people who I talked to, what is their childhood, not relative to what society was saying as a whole.
[7:46] Or relative to the normalized experience, but relative to, say, the non-aggression principle. Did my mother initiate the use of force against me? Yeah, of course she did, right? And in very dangerous ways at times. So when I don't just compare my own experience or the experience of, well, everybody else, you know, they beat everyone in boarding school or whatever. And when I say, well, I'm not going to try and normalize it with my own experience, but I'm going to compare it to objective morality, then you get out of the past. In other words, the defense against the horrors of the past is a clear, fiery line of objective moral judgment. That's what keeps, you know, like if you're at night and there are monstrous, like what keeps them at bay, well, what keeps them at bay is light, usually, right? Like you've got a big light or you've got a burning branch or something like that. And that keeps the monsters away. And so for me, and now that sounds like an eternal battle, of course, but to extend the analogy, at some point the morning comes, right? And then you can get to a safe place so you don't have to do all of this forever and ever. Amen. So for me, it is very much around...
[9:08] Well, not just for me. I think objectively, it's very much around bad things happened, I refuse to normalize them, and I compare the bad things that happened to objective morality.
[9:19] And I'll give you one more example, because I don't want this to be a big lecturer and sort of get your thoughts. So another example is the woman that I dated in my 20s, or more than dated, we had a long relationship, that I was going to marry. Well, none of my supposed friends and family had anything negative to say or anything critical or skeptical to say about this goal, this purpose, this plan, right? And so, given that this was going to be the wrong woman to marry, I mean, very much could have been, I mean, it would have, I think, been objectively bad for us both. So what do I do with the fact that people were going to let me wander into a disastrous marriage? Well, either my friends don't know what's good for me, in which case they're not really friends who know me, or they know but don't care, in which case it's not really much of a friendship, right? Like either they don't know that it would have been a bad marriage for me, or they knew but didn't intervene, in which case they're just kind of selfish and letting me wander off a cliff without even.
[10:27] Saying anything because you know i mean i've i was very receptive to getting out of that relationship it just took one friend's girlfriend who i wasn't even particularly close to to make a comment you know like gee you think that somebody who's going to get married would be happier, and like that was it right that started the whole unraveling it got me out of that so just one chance comment. So I had, you know, friends of, I guess at that point, friends of 20 years, family members who'd known me for, you know, over a quarter century, and none of them lifted a finger or did anything to try and save me. But one of my friends, girlfriends, just made some chance comment that started that whole process of getting out, right? So, I could either sit there and say, well, you know, I guess I'm just not worth caring about and, you know, make all these excuses for my friends and family. Or I can just say, well, that's, like, objectively, that's not good behavior. And that is not a relationship, right? If people aren't willing to even say, hey, are you really happy about this? You don't seem too happy. Or, you know, I've heard that there are some challenges in your relationship.
[11:44] With this woman, let's just have a conversation about these things, right? And nothing, right? So that, I mean, that's really tragic. And I can say, well, either I'm a bad person who's not worth caring about and so on, or, and, you know, these are people I've done a lot of good for, right? These are people who I literally hired them and paid them. In my business, I had done a lot of work, you know, when they were in the hospital, I'd come visit, and, you know, like, I would genuinely sort of did a lot of nice things, and they couldn't even be bothered to sort of help me out. So, objectively, like, forget about this, I was like, oh, it's so upsetting and hurtful, and that's true, but objectively, that's just not good, that's not a good relationship, like, objectively.
[12:32] And so, and realizing that I was sailing through life on history and momentum, and without the correction of people's outside eye. You know, one of the reasons that our inner lives are so vivid is because we rely on other people to tell us more of the truth about ourselves, right? So in our last conversation, right, you relied on me to give you some outside perspective on the thoughts that you were having. And so we've developed this big cacophony of inner voices and we've invented the ability to create our own perspectives but we have to have them tempered by people from outside so yeah.
[13:19] I try to, and philosophy is the ultimate outside eye, philosophy is the ultimate outside eye that says, let's just compare this behavior to objective virtues. Like, you've heard me say to people, you know, if they were badly treated, but they're disconnected from it, like say they were beaten as a child, but they're disconnected from it. And I'd say, okay, well, let's say somebody was beating your child. It's like, oh, I'd be so angry, right? Okay, well, that's an example of a universal principle, right? That you would be angry at, say, a babysitter who beat your child and you'd fire her and maybe press charges and stuff like that, whereas your parents are still welcome over, although they beat you as a child, obviously, much more than the once that might have happened with the babysitter. So, that's just an example of, well, why is it that your child is worthy of outraged anger and protection, but you yourself are not, right? That's just a universal. Why would you be really angry at somebody who beat your child once, but you're not that angry at your parents who beat you a hundred times? So that's, the progress is to get to universal virtues and universal values, because when you have that, then you really can't be exploited, because people exploit the holes in our moral armor, and the holes in our moral armour are justifications and excuses.
[14:43] Like, you wouldn't make an excuse for a babysitter who beat your child, but you'll make excuses for your mother or father who beat you. And those excuses are how we get exploited in the future.
[14:52] So hopefully that's, you know, you ask a big question, and that's hopefully a decent outline of an answer.
[15:02] It is it is and listening to you it gives me like i can zoom out and i i guess even before our call i could have seen like i i of course could not have pointed to what causes the behavior but i i could tell you what i was supposed to do but it's and then comes in the excuse how to do that running on like no hours of sleep right yeah i it's it's these moments that i struggle with um so.
[15:32] Tell me about some of the moments let's go to some real specifics.
[15:36] Okay let's let's go some of the moments let's go to a moment of my two-year-old um, is low sleep need as is my husband and one of these moments would be um he goes to bed around 10 between 10 and 10 30 and he wakes up let's say on average if he goes to bed at 10 he wakes up at seven or a little bit before but of course it happens that he wakes up at six or even a quarter to six and then and all and by six i've had i don't know a handful hours of chopped up sleep.
[16:08] And then he gets up and a job of a fragmented sleep so okay okay um and then he comes in our bedroom and he he wants me to give him a glass of milk or a bottle of milk and and at that time in my mind i get another hour maybe if i get 45 minutes within that last hour of sleep but, whatever i like i i'm i'm so tired and i just don't have the patience to deal with him and then um and he's he's in a midget pajama so we walk into the kitchen and then um he has all his passes in his hands like he has like 10 passes spread out through his crib because he sleeps with passy still so we uh they glow in the dark so we make sure that as the pacifiers pacifiers yes um so he has like all 10 of them in both his hands and then he wants to pour the milk into the bottle and uh and i tell him no like he has to put the pacifist the pacifiers down and he doesn't want to put them down so i pour it in and then that's the first meltdown and he starts crying and um i try to soothe him and then he wants to put the milk into the microwave which is uh, it's somewhere a bit higher up he can't reach it so i have to like lift him up but he's so sleepy still that he spills the milk and it pours over like the furniture that's sitting underneath the.
[17:30] The microwave and it's six o'clock in the morning and i just at one point i i can't and i just put him down i take the bottle i put it in the microwave i warm it up and then he gets to close the lid but by then it's just full-on crying and oh i'm so sorry that.
[17:44] I mean that sounds objectively horrible like exhausted spilling milk on the furniture that's going to smell and yeah that's that's pretty rough.
[17:51] And i really sympathize with that, it's moments like these but i know like i should if i if you are or if if one is the calm parent that you're supposed to be the loving mother and then like i i don't know like how to there is sometimes these moments when he's overtired and then he wants the jacket on then he wants it off then he wants it on then he wants it off and at one point i um that was yesterday that's an example of yesterday not just a hypothetical then he's too hot and then he's too cold then he's like i put it on and off and on and off for like 10 minutes and at one point i tell no okay that we are done here you said you wanted it on so we keep it on and then i walk away and then he runs after me crying my name and it's these moments that are just very overwhelming and at one point i i just don't have the patience and i see other moms they like they sit with their child and they call me tell it you you don't know what you want i'm gonna take it off i'm gonna wait here i'm gonna give you a hug while until you've calmed down and and i i just don't have that patience.
[19:00] I i wish i did and uh and there's there's just so many of these moments or like they they just add up these moments where i get frustrated and i am like okay you've said this is what you want so this is what you get i'm gonna pour the glass of milk or he he's he's spilling stuff and he's keeps knocking things over or like he wants to pour can stuff from one glass into the other and he keeps doing that and then i keep telling him to stop and at one point i put the glasses out of reach and then he cries and i walk away there's just yeah there's these moments and uh, how do i get to be the mom that is just calm and has that has the patience to sit through these things with the child like most of the time i have the patience but sometimes i don't that he wants to unlock all doors from the garage all the way to our apartment and it just takes 10 minutes to walk that to walk instead of two and uh yeah sometimes i just i just don't have the patience for that right.
[20:04] Right right and where is he two and a half closer to three closer to two.
[20:10] Where is he at no he's two years one month two.
[20:14] Years one month okay good, And when you say this, sorry, go ahead.
[20:21] Yeah, sorry. Maybe some more context. I guess that endless love that I'm supposed to feel for my child. I feel it for my baby, but maybe it's because a baby is, what does a baby do? It can't disobey. It can't not do what you want it to do. Maybe it's easier for a mother to love the baby. When uh baby cries you give it a boob maybe you know or if it's too late his first tooth just came through two days they're little blobs of easily pacified need right exactly exactly and, when there are two it's it's it's a lot more work it's it's just a lot more work right right um but i try to yeah how do i get to that endless love when i compare it like i love my my now husband And I love him to pieces. Sometimes we fight. And then sometimes he just breathes.
[21:15] Sometimes what?
[21:17] Sometimes when we fight, it can be hard, I guess.
[21:21] Sorry, did you say sometimes he breathes?
[21:24] No, not sometimes. I just have to breathe and remember.
[21:28] Oh, sometimes you have to. I love my husband. But occasionally breathing, and that drives me crazy. I just wanted to make sure I got that right. Okay. Got it.
[21:35] No, okay. Okay. So, yeah. So I love my husband to pieces. And are you supposed to love your child as much as like the same? Of course, it's a different love. But as much as you love your husband, like when my husband comes home, I love when he comes home. I always go to the door. I greet him. I ask him about his day. When he wakes up, I ask him if he slept well. Like I'm always looking forward to him waking up, him coming home, us spending time. But it's not always the case with my child I just feel some Well.
[22:08] No, but you fight with your husband too, right?
[22:10] Yes, I do.
[22:11] So it's not always the case with your husband either And it's not a criticism, I'm just pointing it out, right?
[22:16] Yes.
[22:18] All right. So let's be real, real honest here, right? And I appreciate this. And I know it's not easy to talk about, but I mean, it's very, very good to talk about this stuff. Okay. So with regards to your son, he's awake for how many hours? You say he sleeps for about eight or nine hours, right?
[22:42] Yes, for about eight or nine hours at night, and maybe about an hour during the day.
[22:47] Okay, got it. All right, so we'll just, so the math is easier for me. Well, he's awake for 14 hours, right?
[22:55] Yes, yes. Yeah, let's say 14 hours, yes.
[22:58] So on average, over the course of those 14 hours, how much or how many of those 14 hours are spent in fun and delight and enjoyment with your son?
[23:13] Most, most. How many hours? 13.
[23:17] Okay, so you have one hour of annoyance, on average, right? So you have one hour of annoyance and 13 hours of great fun.
[23:30] I would say so. I would say so, yes.
[23:33] So that's not too bad. I mean, if you had a job where you loved the job for like 93% of the time, and then 7% was just annoying paperwork, that would be pretty good.
[23:52] Sounds like a dream job. But then again, looking back at my own childhood, before I listened to you, I would have said, oh, I had a great childhood. But now when i look back i i say we were we were beaten my mom never spent time with us my dad was never there he was always busy he he was not interested in us he didn't spend any time with us and it's the moments when my mom blew up and she beat us it's those that i remember it's and that that you know it was probably the same like that was that was i don't know like the real bad stuff was maybe three times a year but that's what scarred me so yeah you want to see of course you can say it's only 93 are spent in joy but i want to make sure that this one this one hour or that yeah that when the when you do have a conflict that you handle it well and i i guess um when you said, so what is most important? I said, in our last call, I said, I want my kids to have a good childhood. And I reflected more on what that means for me. And it means for me that they don't need therapy. I want my kids to not scar.
[25:09] But also, if you were happy 93% of the time and only 7% did you have a negative experience in life, that'd be pretty good. So let me ask you this. How do you go, let's just say the first hour sometimes is cranky and negative. So how do you transition out of the first hour to remaining 13 hours of fun and positive interactions during the day?
[25:36] I go outside. Life is so much easier when you're outside, when you find a trampoline to jump on and then he's all game. And then the baby giggles when it's sitting there in the stroller and it giggles at us jumping on the trampoline. Yeah, things like that. It's transitioning or maybe once he gets food and he really loves his oats with yogurt and when he eats the oats and then he starts feeding me the oats too because he's like, mama also eats oats and he feeds me also spoons of his oats and uh yeah yeah i think that's that's usually when it it's just like it just takes some time to wake up and to get over the crankiness and once he's had something in his stomach and the baby's breastfed and they're both changed into change out of the diapers and uh and things are running and like their needs are met then the morning can start, okay so tell me some.
[26:43] Of the things that you do just one-on-one with your son that uh the most fun.
[26:50] Um yeah i jumping on the trampoline i love i i like i genuinely love playing in the sandbox and building stuff in the sandbox uh and i guess that's why he enjoys it so much too because that's when i'm the most engaged so playing in the sandbox and building stuff and digging holes and, trampolines, I guess I love going to the farm and petting all the animals petting the cows he's a bit timid he gets closer to the calf by now, they're basically dinosaurs at that size I'd be nervous too there's always calves, and we're getting to petting those or he feeds them or he gives me the hay to feed to the calves and he thinks that's fun. So yeah, we go to the farm and we feed the chicken with grass and we feed the cows and we look at the goats and the rabbits. And yes, yeah, so that's things I genuinely enjoy doing with him.
[28:00] Right. And it's not a negative, of course, I'm just, that's doing stuff side by side with him. Like, we're both focusing on a third thing, whether it's the sandbox or the trampoline or the animals in the farm and so on. So that is not back and forth one-on-one. Now, again, he's a little young for some of this kind of stuff to be happening on a regular basis. But in terms of you guys sort of like eye contact and back and forth without there being a sort of third object to focus on, whether it's the sand or the trampoline or the animals.
[28:41] I would say like especially in the evenings um when when i start getting him ready for bed i usually ask him about his day and we talk about his day i i ask him what he ate for lunch i ask him what would you like i ask him who whom of his friends he saw and whether he liked this whether he liked that so in the evening we talk about his day usually a maybe two or three moments during the day we talk about his day whenever we are in the car uh we always have a conversation we um you know i ask him if he saw abc or he he tells me what he sees so it's it's connor's it's looking at a third thing but it's us connecting maybe okay.
[29:23] And sorry um i missed must have missed something obvious here but when you ask him what he had for lunch don't you make his lunch.
[29:32] Yes I do but oh you're like asking.
[29:34] Him to remember what he had for lunch.
[29:36] Exactly got.
[29:37] It got it.
[29:40] And then if he doesn't remember, then ask him all kinds of weird things that you obviously cannot eat.
[29:46] Oh, right, right. Yeah, that's fun. That's fun. Okay. Okay, so...
[29:53] Yeah, also when we're with the animals, I quiz him what the animals eat and also add some fun things. And then sometimes he starts adding fun things that the animals obviously don't eat. And then he says, no, no, no, but mama eats those things. And it's very obvious that I also don't need those things.
[30:11] Got it. And what time do you normally go to bed?
[30:18] So it's not always me who brings him to bed. When my husband comes home, I would say about two-thirds of the time my husband brings him to bed. And if he doesn't, then I go to bed 10 minutes. I brush my teeth, and then I go to bed right after my toddler has gone to bed.
[30:38] So you're like 10-ish, right?
[30:41] Yes, 10.
[30:42] Okay. And if your toddler's getting up at 6, and you're going to bed at 10, how is it that you get so little sleep?
[30:55] Because I have now a six-month-old that is teething.
[31:00] Sorry, sorry, sorry. of course of course of course my apologies for being overly male uh yes quite right quite right okay so yeah you're up with the baby right.
[31:08] Yes yes and it's getting a bit better boy.
[31:12] Or a girl.
[31:14] Uh also boy um yeah it's getting a bit better the the past two or three weeks he's been up between 10 and 15 times i don't think i got more than like a 40 minute stretch at any point of time others like 10 minutes of sleep and i walk for 20 i remember those days then i walk for 30, it's like you know sometimes it's four in the morning and and and i've had four hours of sleep so far right right and broken.
[31:39] Sleep too so.
[31:40] Yes very broken sleep so um it's but today i feel great i i think he woke up maybe five or six times last night uh five or six so it's it feels like this is luxury yeah yeah no.
[31:53] It's it's uh it's rough man uh it's uh i i don't know how we how we made it as a species with these babies crying out for all the predators in the known universe to.
[32:01] Come and get a snack it's.
[32:03] Very strange but it does seem to to work out all right okay.
[32:08] Yes but it's these moments that count like it's also with my mother the the worst parenting happened when she was overtired everything was overwhelming it's not the nice moments that count it's not those that traumatize you it's never those it's it's the bad it's it's it's how you parent in those bad moments and uh that's where you got to elevate your standards uh that's one i sorry not you or i understand.
[32:32] I understand okay all right so a couple of questions about your eldest boy, He has how many pacifiers?
[32:47] Did you say 10?
[32:49] Did I have that right?
[32:51] Yes. We scattered them in his group. It's something we did. We started when he was like one. So whenever, you know, they don't sleep in one spot and fall asleep and wake up the same. So they scoot all over their crib during the night. And just to make sure when he wakes up and he needs one so he can fall back asleep in case he fell out or it's at the other side of the bed.
[33:16] No, no, but why is he still having pacifiers past two?
[33:23] Yes, he only has them for sleeping. And I've talked to the midwife and she says, around two and a half, you can start taking them away. It's hard to take them away at the moment. It's always a fight. No matter how much i tell him that it hurts his teeth she says it's it's it's a bit too early okay well.
[33:42] Listen take obviously.
[33:42] Take the midwife's uh.
[33:44] Take the midwife's uh uh explanations about this uh i just thought maybe it was a bit older but a bit old for that but that's that's fine i mean obviously your midwife is your knows your children uh infinitely better than i do so you can take.
[33:55] Yeah so i i asked the last at the two-year checkup also the pediatrician she says, do it before three but if you do it right now it's going to be so much such a fight you can you you get to wait until three but make sure they're gone by three okay got it okay yeah i would love to take them away but it's yeah it's uh it's hard i'm gonna listen to the experts i.
[34:16] Mean i assume.
[34:18] That they.
[34:18] Know what they're doing so okay now how does your son handle frustration.
[34:27] Um it's very cute he stumps with his feet um when he's it's he stumps with his feet and uh he cries uh obviously um he doesn't hit i'm very grateful he doesn't hit so he stumps with his feet he cries and uh if it's morning he throws the pacifiers, um but then he runs after them and gets them again um yeah he stumps with his feet and he cries and uh yeah that's that answer i don't think it's more he he just uh, he stumps with his feet and he cries until he he gets what he wants or you get him to agree to to something okay.
[35:16] So why is that cute and funny when he's very frustrated and crying.
[35:22] Um no it's like I don't think it's funny but no.
[35:26] No no hang on I just.
[35:29] Heard you say it's very cute and laugh a few times it's.
[35:33] Not a big criticism I'm just curious if why is that cute and funny, And I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm genuinely curious. I mean, if you were really frustrated, let's say something was happening at the bank or at the mall or your car wouldn't start and it was really cold and you were incredibly frustrated, if your son laughed and pointed at you and thought it was very amusing and hilarious, how would you feel?
[36:00] Yeah, I would never, like, I'd never make him feel that way. And I don't laugh. Like, I'm usually very frustrated with him. Yeah.
[36:12] Okay, you didn't ask that question, though. I'm not saying you laugh and point at him, but if your attitude is that the passions of your son are sort of goofy and amusing, that's going to goad him. And I'm not saying that you're pointing and laughing at him, but if that's in your mind as a whole, or if that's your attitude at some level, that's going to cause him to escalate because you are mocking and diminishing his genuine passions. Now, of course, children have genuine passions that we as adults don't share, right? Like, heaven forbid, the programmers of the video game Among Us changed the font, which my daughter was mad about. Now, I mean, as far as issues in the world go, probably not super high, but it's very important to her. And if we take our adult perspective of this doesn't matter or this is amusing or this is foolish then it's going to be tough for the kids to feel uh heard or or respected or that their feelings matter and listen i'm not saying that you don't communicate to your children that their feelings matter i think this is probably just a little hiccup out on the edges but it might have something to do with why he gets so frustrated?
[37:39] Mm-hmm i um, i i'm not sure i i'm not sure you're onto something here because i, i usually deeply feel what my child feels and that's why i cannot deal with them being so frustrated um okay so so i cash out because it frusts i i cannot be this mom who's who's calm through the storm i get frustrated with my kids and their frustration upsets me and at one point i can't um at one point i can't anymore and then i i i walk away okay.
[38:25] So so in in the instance where it's amusing and funny, the kids have too little power, in the instance where their upset transfers to you, and you get upset to the point where it's overwhelming, that's giving your kids too much power. Right? So, your kids can be frustrated, and angry, and so on, and if you say, well, your emotions are so powerful they infect me and overwhelm me, that's training them in a way to be frightened of their own feelings because their own feelings have too much power and that they can cause mom to short circuit and abandon them in a way too.
[39:13] Yes. It's probably my biggest flaw, my own personal flaw, that this is how my emotions feel to me. And that's also how it was to my mom, how my mother's emotions were to my mother.
[39:31] Sorry, your mother's emotions were what?
[39:36] They were overwhelming to her as well, as was our emotions. and now my own emotions feel very overwhelming to me and I cannot deal with my child's emotions.
[39:46] Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the thought process behind being overwhelmed by emotions.
[39:55] Because, I mean, almost everything that occurs in our minds outside of just breathing and heartbeat has some thought behind it. So when let's let's talk about when your son gets upset and frustrated, then you can't observe that as distant from you but you kind of go up with him in terms of frustration and upset is that right correct okay so what is the thought about, that, rather than saying, oh, my son is upset, and he's frustrated, so I'm happy to listen to him, and maybe he's valid, maybe he's not, but, you know, the feelings are important no matter what, so why do you have to go sort of climb that ladder with him?
[40:54] I don't have to. Why do I? I don't know.
[41:00] Would you like to know?
[41:02] Maybe I'd like to know, yes.
[41:04] Okay. So the reason that you climbed the stress ladder or are pulled up the stress ladder by your son is because when your mom got upset, you could not be distant from her. In other words, you couldn't say to your mother, you're upset, it's your business, don't pretend it's because of me. Because if people are merging their feelings with their children, if their children rationally point out that that's unfair and unjust and actually kind of selfish in a way, because then rather than focusing on the child's feelings, the mother or the father are focusing on their own feelings. If you point that out to your parent, they will often get quite aggressive. In other words, when your mother got stressed, oh, you kids are driving me crazy and so on. And if you were to say, no, your feelings are yours to manage. It's not our fault. You need to mature and find a way to manage your own feelings without blaming your kids. What would your mother have said if you'd have pointed that out as a kid?
[42:07] Oh, we would have gotten a beating for that because that would have just pushed her over the edge.
[42:11] So you are not allowed to have independent feelings from your mother because you would have been beaten. And so when your child gets upset, it programs the get just as upset as the person around you, otherwise you get a beating. You can't have an emotional distance. I mean, sometimes it's easier to see in other families. When my mother went on this whole, for me at least, sort of paranoid journey of the doctors poisoned her and all this kind of stuff, right? And she would get really worked up about that. And I would say, well, I mean, this seems quite outlandish. What is the proof? She would just hit the roof, right? In other words, if I tried to sort of understand where she was coming from, without just completely agreeing with her emotions, then she would get very aggressive. And I'm not saying that your mom's in the same category as mine, but it sounds like it's kind of along that continuum, that your mother would get angry at the children, and if the children were to point out that her anger is her own business and not to blame the children, that she needs to manage herself and not blame her children for her feelings, then you would get a beating, right?
[43:29] Yes.
[43:31] So having an independent judgment outside of someone else's emotional escalation is highly dangerous. So you have to go along with other people's emotional escalation, otherwise you get a beating. So you're programmed to climb the ladder with your son because you had to climb the ladder with your mother or you'd get thrown off it.
[44:02] Yes, or maybe sometimes we saw if she's really, really worked up, you go and hide. You pretend you're not there, you just don't breathe.
[44:12] Right. But there was no negotiating with her, either when she was upset or when she wasn't upset, or I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I assume that your mother didn't say to you and your siblings, you know, mommy, sorry she got angry and blamed you, it's not your fault, I got some bad news, and, oh, whatever it might be.
[44:33] Oh, of course, yeah.
[44:34] So she would always blame the children for her own emotional state, which meant that you had no choice to bring any independent rationality to your mother's emotions. You just had to scale up with her or hide.
[44:47] Yes.
[44:49] So that when your son gets upset, you have to go along with it. And then, because he's triggering the same, in a sense, emotional patterns that your mother triggered, which is you better go along with me being upset or very bad things will happen.
[45:08] Oh now i see what's going on with the baby it's it's the same like when the baby's, the the six months it's like you know a baby is not it's not binary it's not uh not crying on crying like sometimes they're just you can see that they're a bit unhappy and then And that also starts stressing. The unhappier he gets, the more stressed I am. If I don't see, you go through the list of, does he not be changed? Does he need to be fed? Is he too warm? There's a list you go through. And the further down I get, and if I haven't solved it, it starts stressing me. Right, because if somebody's upset.
[45:51] But you can't fix it, then you're going to get a beating. Because that's what you grew up with.
[45:56] Exactly. So, yes, you've just unlocked another one here. Thank you.
[46:02] You're welcome.
[46:03] That's where it's coming.
[46:04] So, I mean, so to identify the pattern is important. So let me sort of give you an example, right? So let's say that you step on a nail and you go to the emergency room. And when you see the doctor, the doctor takes out a nail and steps on it too. Have you been cured?
[46:32] No, but maybe this is my understanding of empathy.
[46:36] Right, right. Now I feel what you feel, so that must make you feel better. And it's like, actually, if you could just pull the nail out of my foot, that would be great.
[46:46] Yes.
[46:46] Right, the purpose of me coming here is not for you to put a nail in your foot, but to take the nail out of my foot. You want the doctor not to replicate your injury but to focus on making you better, yes whereas if you're like oh you're upset well i can get upset too and and if you're stressed well i can get stressed too that's like the doctor stepping on a nail rather than focusing on getting the nail out of your foot, yes all you end up with is two people with an injury.
[47:23] Yes all you end up with is two people upset so that's what you're saying here.
[47:27] Right like.
[47:28] With in a you know in my specific example here.
[47:31] Your children's upset like your mother's upset of course was directly dangerous right because when your mother would get upset, she would start looking for scapegoats and getting aggressive right yes right like when my mother had a bad day at work she'd stalk around the house looking for something that we had done wrong Right.
[47:52] Yes.
[47:52] And then she just and we would know this. We would know she's talking around looking for an excuse to get mad. Right. And it wasn't anything objective. Right. It was the old, you know, like the Stalin thing, like, find me the man and I'll find you the crime. Right. And so. Yeah. So, if your children are upset, that triggers in you a feeling of imminent danger, because of your mother, right? Because when your mother was upset, you had to really focus on trying to find some way to appease her, or get away, or de-escalate, or something. Otherwise, you might get beaten, right?
[48:35] Yes.
[48:36] Right. So your children's upset is not your mother's upset. I mean, it goes along the same programming. Because your mother would be upset and would get aggressive and didn't care, right? Like, this doesn't happen at work, usually. I mean, people don't usually get that mad at work or on the subway. So within the family home, though, these kinds of eruptions, if you have immature parents, it hits usually the same neural pathways as self-expressed toddlers. And actually, the parents who blame their children for their own emotional upset, and I mean, this is a tiny tweak, right? So I'm not putting you in this category as a whole, right? But parents who blame their children for their own emotional upset are in fact stuck in a toddler stage.
[49:29] Because when toddlers, and usually when toddlers are trying to, let's say you have those little toys which have cut out geometric shapes on the top, and then you're supposed to get the blocks and put them, the triangle and the triangle and the square and the square and the circle and the circle, if toddlers are having trouble with it, particularly boys, let's be honest, particularly boys, if they can't get something to fit, they'll get angry, not at their own judgment, but they'll get angry at the objects themselves as you say when your son is upset he throws his pacifier right as if the pacifier is the problem and sometimes boys if they can't do the shape fixing or something like that then they will uh try and hammer it in or they'll push it or they'll throw the whole thing away in frustration as if the source of their frustration is external to them And it's, in a sense, the toy's fault that it's not working. And that's a natural phase of development, but a lot of parents get stuck there, where the source of my frustration or upset is outside of myself and outside of my own thoughts.
[50:43] So when your son gets upset, he triggers the same fight-or-flight mechanism as your mother did, and it's hard to focus on him. See, your son is, in a sense, trying to get you, to replicate his emotions rather than listen to and accept that he has these emotions, but without escalating along with him. Because de-escalating emotions is really important. So we all have strong passions in life, both, you know, quote positive and negative, although they're usually all positive in the long run. So we all have strong passions in life. And it's important not to be frightened of our own passions, because then we can't really feel anything strong without experiencing a lot of stress.
[51:36] And if other people can focus on our feelings without taking them personally, without escalating along with us, in other words, if the doctor can focus on the nail in her foot without, complaining about all the things in his life, which, you know, would not be particularly helpful, then we are no longer as afraid of our own passions. Because now, when your son gets upset, he has to manage your upset. Because when he gets upset, you get really upset to the point where you will leave the situation. And so he's not comforted. In fact, he's frightened. And now, and it's a way for you to try to train your son out of having strong emotions by abandoning him if he has strong emotions that transfer to you.
[52:27] So you're trying to, in a sense, strong arm him into not having strong feelings by saying if you have strong feelings mommy's going to leave the room.
[52:38] And that's a way of your frustration or anger with your mother and her strong feelings being dangerous to you that's a way of trying to control your son's feelings rather than you know listen to them and recognize that they're they're not a threat to you and if they're a threat to you then he's going to experience them as a threat to himself and then he's going to suppress his emotions so you don't leave the room and that that's your way i think of trying to manage your mother but i don't think it's particularly fair or relevant with your son if that makes sense.
[53:13] Um it's my way of of managing my mother that's not relevant with my son.
[53:18] And then i think so it's It's that, so with your mother, her emotions were dangerous, right? Because she would blame you for her emotions.
[53:32] Yes, yeah. So with your mother.
[53:34] Her emotions were dangerous. And so you would try to appease her. But if that didn't work, you left the situation, right?
[53:42] Yes.
[53:43] And it's the same thing with your son. When he's frustrated or angry, you try to manage his emotions. But if you can't you leave the situation yes and that that communicates to your son that his emotions are dangerous now your mother's emotions were dangerous but your son's are not yes because your mother had violent power over you your son does not right.
[54:11] Okay, I see that connection. How could I not?
[54:15] Well, so another analogy would be like if you were in some terrible prison situation, and you were forced to play chess with a prison guard, and if you lost, he would beat you, then when your son wants to play chess, that's pretty stressful, right? Because it triggers all of those old experiences. Sorry, your question was how do you change it?
[54:37] Yes. my question is how it's it's it's i learn how to manage my own emotions uh maybe the closest closer to as a woman the closest you get to it or the the best judge of how well you are at it is giving birth the breathe all the breathing strategies they teach you uh leading up to that uh it really does help and i remember one therapist that i had also she taught me or she told me about breathing strategies you know when these strong emotions come but is that the is that the way through is like what is the way through here how do how do i get like just simply knowing okay now my son his own emotions are high okay let me try to see that mine don't get high as well it's you're.
[55:23] Such a lovely young lady you really are i mean you're so nice you're like oh my mother was.
[55:28] Horribly unjust.
[55:29] And beat to me the best way to deal with that is breathing exercises And it's a.
[55:33] Lovely thought.
[55:34] It really is. But I'm afraid you're talking to a moral philosopher. No. The solution is moral. The solution is what my mother did to me by blaming me for her emotions was utterly unjust and immature. Remember, I was talking about the fiery line, right, that stops behavior. So if you and your husband are short on money, you don't sit there and say, well, why don't we just go rob a gas station? Right, that's not on the list of things to do, right? That's not like, well, you know, every time we're short on money, I think of going to rob some old lady in the park. But I won't, right? Because it's not even on the list of things that you would consider doing, right?
[56:26] Yes.
[56:27] So, if you recognize how unjust and unfair it was for your mother to blame you for her own feelings, and you recognize how frightening and immoral that was, not just because it taught you that your feelings are dangerous, but also because it led to violence against you, right? And, of course, I know that's not happening with your kids, but I'm talking about your, right? So, your emotions. So if you recognize that it was just absolutely wrong and horrible for your mother to blame you and your siblings for her own emotional state and then attack you or abandon you, right, which is to say she'd just storm out or leave the room or something like that. Once you get how unacceptable that is, then it's unacceptable universally. And then it'll be off the table of possible actions for you and you won't do it.
[57:25] Now you'll deal with the emotions of not doing that but if it's unacceptable for your mother, then it's unacceptable for you in the same way if you were to hear somebody was a little low on cash so they'd robbed a gas station you'd say well that's unacceptable for them and it's unacceptable for you so it's just a universal so it's not on the list of things you will do right, so realizing that blaming your child for your own emotional state is unjust and immature and by the way deeply human right we all do it right so it's it's not uh it's not like you're some singular bad person i mean it's a natural state especially because we were most of us raised by adult toddlers in in toddlers in adult form so it's natural but if you say well that's just unacceptable. I was really, really mad when my mom did that, right? Because she was blaming me as a little kid for her own emotional state and then would even attack me if she continued to feel bad to the point where I'd have to flee or hide or something like that.
[58:32] That was really terrible and bad and dangerous and wrong.
[58:36] There's a kind of funny thing that happens when you recognize that your parents' behavior was wrong and it's universal. There's something that happens in our brain that it just kind of despawns from the list of possible actions for ourself. And that's why the moral judgment is really, really important. Now, the breathing thing is nice, and if it helps, obviously, I'm not going to say it's a bad idea. But the most foundational way to stop doing it is to recognize how wrong and immoral it was for your mother to do it, and your father too, I'm sure. And therefore, if it's wrong for your mother to do it and it's universally wrong, it will simply despawn or shimmer out or vanish from the list of your possible ways of dealing with this. Because nobody with any conscience, and obviously you have a very sensitive and good conscience, nobody with any conscience does what they define as wrong.
[59:40] You're right, you're right.
[59:41] And if it's wrong to do this, your conscience will say, don't do it. And you'll find other ways to deal with it and so on. But you won't replicate that which was harmful to you as a child once you make that connection. It'll just, I don't know, it's magic, you know. It's a weird kind of magic that once you define something as immoral, and of course you have a lovely and sensitive conscience, but once you define something as immoral, well, by golly, you just, it just goes off the list of things you'll do. It's the same way that robbing a gas station is not any way to deal with difficult finances. Sorry, sorry, go ahead.
[1:00:15] Yeah, or the best example for me is hitting a child.
[1:00:20] Right.
[1:00:20] Like, we were hit, and it is, I can't even, I can't imagine, I can't imagine doing that. And it's just, it's never something I have to suppress. It's just.
[1:00:32] Right, yeah, so it's universally, sorry, that's a much better example. I appreciate that improvement in what I'm saying. So, yeah, you're absolutely right, right. So hitting a kid is just not on the list. It was for your parents, it was for my parents, but it's just not on the list. Like, that's just not, and so it doesn't even cross your mind in a way. And so, in the same way. Exactly.
[1:00:50] I don't have to have a coping strategy. It's just not on the list.
[1:00:54] Right. So it's sort of like saying, well, I really want to hit my kids and the solution is breathing exercises. It's like, eh, not really. I mean, it won't hurt, but it won't fundamentally change the base impulse or desire, right? So once you get how wrong it was, sorry, go ahead.
[1:01:14] I don't hit my child, but you know, the hitting is like when shit hits the fan, my mother hits. She didn't do it on a daily basis, but when shit hit the fan, there was an outlet and it was hitting. And for me, when shit hits the fan, I walk away.
[1:01:31] Right, but your mother also did that sometimes too, or you did that to your mother, right? because you would leave the situation.
[1:01:37] Yes. Yes.
[1:01:40] And why is it so, right? So recognizing that your toddler is not your mother. I mean, I know this sounds like ridiculous and blindingly obvious to say, but your mother was making immoral choices. Your son is just passionate.
[1:01:58] Now I see what you were trying to say 15 minutes ago or 10 minutes ago or what it was.
[1:02:02] It's a complicated thing to get across. I hope I'm doing a decent job. It's hard to get across. But, yeah, if you're, you know, when my mother was upset, it was dangerous to me because she'd find some way to blame us and attack us, right? When my daughter is upset, she's not my mother. My mother made immoral choices. My daughter's just a kid. So, if your son is upset, there's nothing to manage. There's nothing to control. There's no threat. There's no danger. He's not going to stab you, right? I mean, he is just upset. And you can be curious and listen to his upset without taking it on yourself. And like if you're a doctor and somebody comes in with the nail in their foot, you don't have to put a foot in your own nail and then blame them for injuring you.
[1:03:00] Got it, got it.
[1:03:01] A nail in your own foot. I think I said foot in your own nail. I think I may have flipped that one, but we get that, right?
[1:03:06] Yes yes uh but let's apply that to myself yes i myself have these same struggles like if i i get emotionally overwhelmed with things uh yeah like something small that is very upsetting okay can you give me an example okay a more concrete example um.
[1:03:33] Okay uh um yeah i'm gonna take that one uh it was a few nights ago one of these uh yeah it was one of these nights where i you know i wake up between 10 and 15 times and i and at one point i think i was up for an hour and a half walking a baby that was crying um walking around the room trying to soothe it and in the morning, I have maybe five hours of sleep and, and then I'm just desperate I'm crying in the morning because I know I have a day ahead of me, and my despair runs so deep that it's hard to make and I tell to my husband I think we're done after two kids I can't do this another I don't want to do this again this is, And I make these, and I'm crying at the breakfast table, and I'm saying, I can't do this. This is too hard. You don't know. I've written a master thesis, and I thought I was sleep-deprived writing that, but now I can just laugh.
[1:04:44] Sorry, what were you sleep-deprived doing?
[1:04:47] When I was writing my master thesis.
[1:04:49] Oh, right, right.
[1:04:50] Yeah, I was sleep-deprived, or I thought I was sleep-deprived, but it's nothing compared to what is going on at the moment. Or not not today but in in general when you have when you have a small child then you need to get up for the other at one point everyone is awake and you have to be awake and you know you have a day ahead of you and you can barely function yeah and and then like i'm i feel that despair and it's really hard to get out of the mindset and be like okay let's let's tackle i have another day i get i you know i tell my husband to be home a bit earlier tonight so i can uh i can go to bed when the baby goes to bed um but like i to to be positive about the you know 12 hours that i have with my kids or however may i about the hours that i have with me to be positive about the hours with my kids i am overwhelmed i'm very negative and it's hard to get out of that head space and i it's overwhelming and i say oh i don't want to do this uh it's it's too hard i don't want to do this again it's really hard and yeah, what i'm trying to like does this give you a picture of my emotional state and me not being able to handle them instead of i don't know how how i'm supposed to just shake them off or i don't know i don't know this is an example does it help or can you know i completely.
[1:06:12] Understand obviously there's no philosophical insights that will replace sleep right.
[1:06:17] Yes i mean and it's not about to end.
[1:06:19] Right because you know you've you've obviously got breastfeeding for a while and And it sounds like you have a very non-sleep-oriented kid. And if it's any consolation, not that it's much, but my daughter was the same way. She just wouldn't sleep much at all. And is there some practical solutions or options? Can you just sleep with your baby so that you can breastfeed and try and nap while she's feeding?
[1:06:47] Yes, I do that.
[1:06:49] You have a separate room or a separate bed where you can take her and and co-sleep so that she can feed exactly with that okay so that helps a little bit right.
[1:06:59] It does it does.
[1:07:00] I you.
[1:07:00] Know i try to transition to crib but at the moment it's like all the sleep i can get i'll deal with the aftermath and all the habits they get into after but right now i just prioritize my own sleep.
[1:07:11] Yeah no you have to i mean you have to for sure because it's really tough to function i mean sleep deprivation is a method of torture right okay exactly exactly so okay okay.
[1:07:21] I I can give you, what was the other example?
[1:07:27] Your daughter works in an ice cream parlor, I heard in a recent show. It's very nice. I wish I did that. Because right now I have another passion project, and it's making ice cream. It's actually very, very simple to make. I'm a bit of a foodie here. So I make my own ice cream, and I made a tiramisu ice cream. Um and uh if i i made it i think the second time only the first time i didn't quite follow the recipe because i had some tweets i was like oh this is going to work well this is going to work well and that it did it and then the second time i made it according to the recipe and there was something within the recipe but i just followed it because i you know i need i need to know where i stand in order to correct it um and i and it was totally inedible at the end because there was so much caffeine in it i don't know what the the author of that book uh yeah was thinking and i was so upset about that ice cream and it's for me it's really hard to like shake it off say oh it was it's just an ice cream you know then i'll just not like we'll just not eat this we'll just not serve this to our guests we had a play date that evening but it's you know i i get so frustrated about something like that and it's and someone else can say oh it's just an ice cream come on okay so so so.
[1:08:44] Knowing knowing the history that you have right as i do what's the most what's the most likely explanation as to why you would get so tense about making a mistake in the kitchen.
[1:09:01] Um with i was afraid of my mother um yeah of my mother's reaction over me making a mistake okay.
[1:09:10] So if that's i mean did that happen when you would be making things with your.
[1:09:14] Mother or or you would be making things as a whole in general when you make a mistake um you like i remember when i was a kid no you drop a plate when you unload the dishwasher and i would start crying because I was afraid of her reaction.
[1:09:28] Right, right. So, it's not a mystery, and it's not something endemic to your human nature. You just have a little bit of trauma history, or maybe more than a little bit of trauma history, in making mistakes in the kitchen. When you make a mistake in the kitchen, your mother would get very angry at you, right?
[1:09:49] Mm-hmm. Yes.
[1:09:50] So it's sort of like saying, why is that ex-soldier upset watching a war movie?
[1:10:01] Yeah, well, that's very obvious why a soldier would be upset watching a war movie.
[1:10:05] If you were yelled at and frightened and traumatized and upset when you made a mistake in the kitchen, then it's not shocking that you would feel a great deal of stress making a mistake in the kitchen.
[1:10:21] Yes, I hear you.
[1:10:22] So that means that your mother is still in your mind, which means you haven't walled off her bad behavior with the fiery moat of moral judgment. You haven't got mad enough.
[1:10:33] Okay. Okay.
[1:10:34] I mean, kids don't have to make mistakes in the kitchen. Kids are supposed to drop things. Kids are supposed to miss pouring, right? Like your son is making a mistake in the kitchen when he pours the milk and it spills, right?
[1:10:45] Mm-hmm.
[1:10:46] So, it means that you haven't put that fiery judgment on what a witch your mother was by getting really mad at kids who are going through the normal process of making mistakes. You're not mad enough. So, it's still on the list of possible reactions for you.
[1:11:10] Okay, so what you're giving me, let's zoom out here. what you're saying is you're, not giving me a tool to say try, you know, breathing exercise. There is no thing I can do when I have a very strong emotion. What do I do if I have a very strong emotion?
[1:11:33] No, no, no, but you don't do it. Hang on. You don't do it while you're having the emotion. You do it when you're not having the emotion. Which is you say, I got triggered because for like whenever I would make a mistake and you understand kids can't make mistakes, Because that's having a standard of perfection that children, by design, can't possibly achieve. It's like calling a toddler a dwarf, or insanely short, or a midget or something. It's like, no, they're just a toddler. They're not short.
[1:12:05] Yes.
[1:12:06] Right? They're just a toddler, right? They're not supposed to be tall.
[1:12:09] Yes.
[1:12:09] If they're tall, that means there's something deeply wrong with their body. Right? So children can't make mistakes because we're born without knowledge, and the only way we acquire it is to make a mistake. It's sort of like saying, like, I spent 10 years learning the violin, right? And it's sort of like saying, well, when I first started playing the violin, I was making a lot of mistakes.
[1:12:35] You were always off it? Yes.
[1:12:37] Well, no shit, right? Well, but I mean, it's not possible to not make a mistake because it's not a mistake. I mean, you can say, well, it's not perfect, but of course, how can it possibly be perfect when you're just starting to learn something, right? If I'm just learning how to play chess and I move a chess piece against the rules, I'm not being stupid. I'm not making a mistake. I'm just learning chess. You know, if you learn how to play piano, you fat finger a lot of keys that are wrong, right? Are you making a mistake? No, because there's no standard by which you can be a perfect piano player when you sit down to play piano. Does that make sense?
[1:13:21] Yes, totally.
[1:13:23] A mistake is if you have a concert and you decide to go drinking for the week beforehand rather than practice your piece. Now, that's a mistake. So your son can't make a mistake when he's pouring of course he's going to miss, I mean my solution was I would have my daughter I put my daughter's cereal bowl in the sink and she would pour there.
[1:13:52] That's a good idea.
[1:13:53] Well because yeah obviously right then it doesn't matter if she spills because you just rinse the sink right.
[1:13:59] Yeah. At the moment, we just sit him down on the floor because then I don't have to clean. Yeah, I can.
[1:14:07] Right. No, no. But he wants to master things, right?
[1:14:12] Yes.
[1:14:13] Learning how to master things is a deep pleasure. So you're keeping him from a deep pleasure. And so you just have to say, well, my son has to pour the milk. So what's the least damaging place for him to pour the milk? Well, the sink. Okay. So I'll put the cereal bowl in the sink.
[1:14:29] Currently, it's on the floor, so at least it doesn't run over furniture. If he spills, it's on the floor, but it's so much better.
[1:14:37] Yes, but it spreads more. At least the sink is contained, right?
[1:14:39] Yes, yes, yes. Great idea.
[1:14:41] No, it's the old thing that if your kids want to paint on the table, you put down cloth and plastic.
[1:14:46] Exactly.
[1:14:46] Otherwise, it's too stressful if they spill, which they will.
[1:14:50] Yes.
[1:14:50] Or they paint through, which they will, right? so you just find this is why you find it easier to be outside because there's less things that can be spilled broken dropped smashed right whatever right.
[1:15:00] Yeah even though i feel like we were very good at not child like making our home a yes space and not a i'll be careful with this be careful with that right right right but it's there's so much there's so much more to do it's also more interesting for me and uh yeah yeah i yeah but everyone.
[1:15:18] Learns to fix things by destroying things, right? You take a clock apart and then hopefully you can put it back together. I mean, I remember a friend of mine's father was an engineer and he took apart a grandfather clock with like 6,000 cogs. And he's like, and he laid it all out on the ground. He put outlines, he drew outlines around them, said where it came from and so on. And then at one point, the dog got downstairs and just trashed the whole thing, right? And then he just put it in a big bag and threw it out, right? And so that's unfortunate. But yeah, I mean, you learn how to fix things by breaking things. Muscles grow because they tear, right? So strength comes from breaking things. So, understanding that your son cannot make a mistake. Neither of your sons can make a mistake. And so it is not a deviation. For a child to break things, for a child to drop things, for a child that is not a mistake. It is not a deviation from childhood. It is not a negative. It is an inevitable consequence of your child learning how to do things. So your son wants to help unload the dishwasher. And what you have to do is look and say, if he breaks less than 10% of things, that's a good thing.
[1:16:36] He gets to unload the cutlery, take away the sharp knife, and then I put him up and he gets to unload the cutlery and I hurry to do all the rest.
[1:16:45] Right, no, I get that. So it's not like it's a mistake or a problem or it's a bad thing that he breaks things. Because the only other option that you have is to have your child not do anything.
[1:16:59] And if your child doesn't do anything because you're afraid of a mistake or a negative, if your child doesn't do anything, then your child is in even a worse state because then you've broken his spirit rather than lost a glass or two. Right? It's like the parents who are like, well, I don't want my kids to play outside because they could, you know, they could eat dirt, they could get germs, they could trip and fall, they could, right? Well, yeah. Okay, so what's your option? Well, your child sits inside all day, gets fat and diabetic. It's way better to get a couple of strawberry knees than it is to be fat and diabetic, right?
[1:17:34] Yeah.
[1:17:35] So there is no option called nothing gets broken and nothing gets wrecked. That's not an option. If you want that option, don't have kids. But then all that happens is your life gets broken because you get sad later on in life, right?
[1:17:49] Yeah, you get bitter and lonely.
[1:17:52] So one of the ways that, not you obviously, but one of the ways that parents really harm their children is to have a standard of perfection that children are inevitably never going to meet. I mean, even I will, you know, once every year or two, I'll drop something and break it. Sure. In my family, it's kind of a known thing that whenever we hand things to each other, they fall. Like, we're just not good at handing things to each other. I don't know why that is. It's like we suddenly turn into like spastic lobster claw hands or something. Like, we just can't make the transition. So, to have standards called Nothing Bad Happens, is a way that parents excuse the abuse of their children. And I'm not putting you in this category. I'm talking about your parents, right? So when children are learning how to make food, a lot of times it tastes bad.
[1:18:50] Yes.
[1:18:52] Of course. And that's called learning, right? I mean, if you somehow had the magic power to make great food and never drop anything, you wouldn't be a human child, you'd be a god or something. Like, it wouldn't make any sense. It's like expecting children to learn polysyllabic words before they learn monosyllabic words. Like, it's just not going to happen, right? So, having a standard that includes that children can't make mistakes, they're simply learning and processing, right? That's natural, that's inevitable, and that's healthy. Children have to make mistakes or they can't learn because the only way to have children not make mistakes is to prevent them from learning, which is the worst mistake of all. Everybody who exercises will pull muscles and hurt themselves from time to time. And what's the option to not exercise? Well, that's even worse. Then your bones turn into puddles, and your heart is unhealthy and you maybe gain weight or like, you know what I mean? So all activities carry within them inevitable risks and negatives and the only way to avoid those risks and negatives is to not do anything which is the worst mistakeable.
[1:20:05] Yeah it's with a toddler it's navigate like he wants to do everything himself currently wants to pull up his own diapers uh but then that means that he always breaks them at the side because there's there are these pants and then uh yeah we go through two diapers and i'm like okay no more you get to pull up your pants but you don't get to pull up your diapers because they just break and uh of course he disagrees he wants to pull up the diapers it's just it's a fine line to walk because they won't do everything themselves and some things like i i just don't have a way around it's like no i'm sorry you don't get to do that because you obviously see this is broken and now this is also broken the third one i get to put it on.
[1:20:47] Well but sorry i mean to me that would be a matter of honesty and i don't know that this is the right thing to do. I'm not trying to say that it's the right thing to do, but to me, it would seem that this is an honesty thing, right? So does he understand the concept that, say, a candy bar costs money?
[1:21:04] Yes.
[1:21:05] Okay. So a candy bar costs, let's say, a dollar, and how much do the diapers cost?
[1:21:13] I don't know, about, I'd say, 20 cents per diaper, or something like that. Okay.
[1:21:19] So if you say to him, if you break the diaper, we can't afford candy.
[1:21:27] I see, yes.
[1:21:29] And there's a truth in that, right? I'm not saying that every 20 cents you'd buy a candy, right? But you'd say, look, if you break three diapers, we can't afford a candy bar.
[1:21:40] Or five diapers, I guess it'd be five diapers, right? Or whatever it is, right?
[1:21:43] Yes.
[1:21:44] So if he's just doing things with no consequences, and obviously I'm not saying buy him a candy bar every time he puts his diapers up, right? But just say, it's expensive. I want you to be able to do stuff but if you break them it's expensive and that's less money for us to go to the park it's less money for us to go to a play center it's fewer toys it's less candy it's it's just that's what it is then he's got some stakes like.
[1:22:18] That's the actual it yeah it's basically that's the actual reasons.
[1:22:21] Like i don't bother you right it's expensive buying these diapers and he keeps breaking them okay so if he understands that like that's just direct honesty with the kid and saying if you want like you can have all the practice diapers you want but that's less toys and candy and less outings because gas is expensive and the car needs to be maintained and if you break diapers i have to spend money on diapers not on toys and candy and outings now that's not from a an angry standpoint is it it's just a fact yes so you're teaching your child that resources are limited desires are infinite resources are limited and it's a zero-sum game if you break a diaper there's less money available for other things right and then you can do the math right and you can say okay so let's say you break four diapers a day, right? Over five days, that's 20 diapers. That's $2. That's two candy bars.
[1:23:22] You can even do the math, and that's like $2 is like 20 kilometers driving somewhere. That's to the park and back twice. And that way, it's not you getting mad at him. It's you explaining to him why there are negative consequences to breaking things. And then you can give him the choice. If you want less toys and less outings, you can do all the practice you want on your diapers. But if you do want outings and you want a juice box and you want, like, you know, whatever, like a piece of candy once in a while, then you have to get it right or not try.
[1:24:02] Mm-hmm.
[1:24:03] Right? And that's, so it's not you imposing your will on him and getting mad and frustrated at him and having this odd battle. It's like, here's the honest reasons why I think it's not great for you to keep breaking your diapers, but it's your choice. if you want that then there's fewer things that we can do.
[1:24:25] Okay well it's I hope to explain that as rationally as you did well I'll probably get the message across I think he will get that but I will be frustrated at that point and.
[1:24:41] Why would you be frustrated.
[1:24:43] I'm not saying you're wrong I.
[1:24:45] Just want to understand your thinking.
[1:24:50] Maybe it's the i told you you like i i told you you can't do this and see you can't okay uh you you could and then he's like no you want i want to try again and then i tell him it's it's really hard it's really hard you get to pull up your pants but it's really hard he's like no i want to pull up the diapers okay let me try one.
[1:25:10] More time and then he does it right no so so if you explain to him if you break two diapers or you break five diapers and you can keep track right and it's not mean it's just a fact right if i break a computer that i need i have to get it fixed or buy a new one and that means there's a certain amount of money i can't spend on other things that's just a fact it's not personal right so if you say if you break a lot of diapers.
[1:25:39] Then we can't do some things because it's expensive now if he then says i want to keep trying that's fine and then there need to be direct consequences usually that day right so if he if he breaks a bunch of diapers right he breaks a bunch of diapers and you say if if you break five diapers then i'm you know i'm not we're not going to the park because i need to save the money for new diapers right it's not personal right like if you say to your account if you say to your accountant i want to buy x y and z he'd say okay but you have to cut your spending it's not he's not being mean to you it's just it's math right yes now of course being a kid he's going to want both right so being a kid he's going to want to break the diapers and he's going to want to go to the park yes absolutely at some point you can also say but you're not just making a decision for yourself, you're also making a decision for your brother.
[1:26:40] Right? Because if you break all the diapers and we can't go to the park, because I need to save money for new diapers, then you're also making your brother not go to the park. Now, most likely what he'll do is he'll be super careful. And you can say to him, listen, I can help you with your diapers so that you can put your own diaper on and we can go to the park. Like, I can help you. But right now, he views the helping him as an imposition of will and you saying he's incompetent. So he fights it, right?
[1:27:12] Oh, you just gave me the greatest idea because your candy is my stracciatella yogurt. When we go to the farm, they sell their own yogurts and usually gets a stracciatella yogurt. I think he doesn't know that there's, yeah, he only gets plain yogurt at home. And I think that he thinks that the only place that there's different yogurts is in that farm.
[1:27:32] Okay.
[1:27:32] Okay, I can reason with him with, you know, five diapers is a stracciatella yogurt. So the next time we go, we don't get a stracciatella yogurt, something like that.
[1:27:39] Right, and the important thing is to not make it punitive. Like, I'm going to punish you by not buying you yogurt because you didn't obey me. Like, it's not personal. It's just math.
[1:27:50] Yes. Yes, I hear you.
[1:27:52] I hear you. If your kid would say, I want to go to the farm and to the play center and I want to stay home, you'd say, well, you can't. It wouldn't be personal how dare you like it wouldn't be mad you wouldn't be mad about it it's just like but that's just not possible right and so if your kid wants to do things that cost money that's fine that's fine but then he has to figure out what to spend less money on.
[1:28:16] Understood understood can we uh can we untangle something else.
[1:28:19] What is.
[1:28:20] The difference between a consequence and a punishment.
[1:28:23] Well a punishment is something that you impose a consequence is something reality imposes, So if you say to someone, if you keep smoking, I'm going to stab you in the lung, that's a punishment, right? But if you say, if you keep smoking, you might get lung cancer, that's a consequence that's not imposed by you, but by nature. Yeah.
[1:28:47] You know, let's start with the example of small kids. And that was especially true when he was less than one year old. You know, kids love hair.
[1:28:57] And uh if there's any hair that is not tied up into a ponytail they would pull on it right, and uh we used to have i would call it a consequence but maybe it's a punishment of you pull hair i put you down you're not you're not on like on my hip anymore um is that a consequence or a punishment hmm that's interesting how do i get the kid to stop pulling on hair I mean.
[1:29:23] I always like to think outside the box Which is, why not just spend five bucks And buy him a cheap wig, No, give him a wig to play with, okay or some furry toy that that he can play with right yeah.
[1:29:42] But you know when you have them on, it's a thing they pull on jewelry at the moment or not anymore like earrings and everything it's long gone.
[1:29:52] Sure yeah no earrings of course right yeah you they're shining and they want to put them in their mouth so you can't yeah i understand that right okay so also you have.
[1:30:00] Long hair they like pulling on it and i you know i don't have like having hair pulled.
[1:30:05] Right right okay so let's see here that's that's a good question obviously this is a bit outside my area of expertise because the only thing that my daughter could pull on is my ear hair uh so that's just that's just a fact there's just you could rub the dome well that's about it right now i guess there's a little bit of hair like even.
[1:30:24] If it's a little bit of hair like you would probably pull on your wife's hair? How did your wife react?
[1:30:30] Yeah, I don't know that that was an issue. Maybe it's a boy thing or something like that, but I don't remember that being an issue. So let's see. So why do you think he was pulling on your hair?
[1:30:48] I think they just start being good with hands and they start rubbing stuff. Why was it particularly my hair? I don't know, was it wanting attention?
[1:31:01] Well, I would imagine certainly if you're doing something and you're not engaging your child, which happens to all of us, right? We get distracted. So, but if you're doing something and you're not engaging your child, then your child knows for sure that if he pulls your hair, he will get your attention.
[1:31:21] Very imminently, yes.
[1:31:23] Right.
[1:31:23] Very promptly.
[1:31:24] So, if your child is feeling like you're too distracted in not paying him attention, then he might pull on your hair to get your attention. I guess another way of putting it is if you were in that particular kind of mood where you're close and connected with your kid and you're explaining everything you're doing and even if he doesn't fully understand, you're pointing things out, here's what we do with this and here's what we did. I would talk about this with my daughter even when she was too young to understand it, just so she would feel kind of included. did it happen that your son would pull on your hair even if he was engrossed in what you were explaining or showing?
[1:32:02] I could not tell you anymore.
[1:32:04] Right. It could be the case. It could be the case. Yes, it could be the case. Right. It seems unlikely that if you were doing something really fun with your son, that he would just reach over and pull on your hair. That seems a bit unlikely. Again, he could be different that way, but that would be less likely to me.
[1:32:25] Understood. Let me give you a current example with my two-year-old. Um he like i'm like i i'm kind of carrying him in front of me and he's like i don't know his knees on my belly and i'm carrying it we're up somewhere and we're talking to each other we're doing something super excited and he sometimes just gets so overexcited he slaps my face with both his hands and it really hurts what and then he does that to me and he also does that to my to my husband he slaps both like he slaps your face yes yeah or he like leaves you with a like he just with his entire upper body he goes forward and then he slaps his hands into my face, um and it hurts and then i put him down immediately and i tell him that it this hurts because it actually hurts no i get it and he's only.
[1:33:20] Going to get stronger from here right.
[1:33:22] Exactly exactly and he does it to.
[1:33:24] Your husband as well does he does it does he do it to his baby brother.
[1:33:26] Um slap him in his face yes yes he does that too.
[1:33:35] Now you said it was over excitement.
[1:33:38] I i think so some like it's usually with some strong emotions it comes out with strong emotions he doesn't just do it out of the blue um it's when he's super frustrated when he's super excited um it usually comes with emotions it's not just like we're having a conversation we're doing something or and then he does it out of the blue um.
[1:34:03] So it's when he has very strong feelings yes, okay so he must associate strong feelings with aggression, and that goes back to the first part of our conversation that you experience strong feelings as aggression because of your mother and maybe your father too but because your mother when she had strong feelings she would get aggressive.
[1:34:29] Yes so if.
[1:34:37] If he experiences strong emotions as aggression, then when he feels strong, he would be more likely to hit.
[1:34:54] Yes.
[1:34:55] So then the question is, how do you start to undo this association of strong emotions with aggression? Because one of the things that has seemed to me and obviously we're just kind of skimming the surface here but one of the things that seemed to me to happen is when you disapprove of your son you put him down or do you detach you leave the room you said when he pulls on your hair you just immediately put him down and so on right exactly well why because children view that as aggressive, it's kind of like a threat of abandonment like i'm not going to hold you i'm not going to show you affection, I'm going to leave the room, I'm going to put you down. And that is a punishment, for negative behavior. And so his strong feeling leads to- Yes.
[1:35:43] What is the difference between consequence and punishment?
[1:35:45] I'm sorry?
[1:35:47] This all came from Australia or me trying to get you to help me detangle punishment versus consequence.
[1:36:01] Okay, so...
[1:36:03] So you say this is a punishment.
[1:36:05] Yeah, this is a punishment because it's imposed by you, not by nature.
[1:36:15] Sorry, I hear my baby in the other room. My friend is... My babysitter was sick, so my friend is babysitting my baby.
[1:36:23] Listen, this is about your kids. So whatever you need to do, I'm happy to take five if you want to. And we can finish up fairly quickly after. because but i want to get this last point across so um to take whatever time you need and and i'll just.
[1:36:35] Wait but it's got it give me five uh i can just put you on hold here yep thanks all right i'm back on yes.
[1:36:45] Ma'am everything all.
[1:36:47] Right yes he says i'm breastfeeding and it's a luckily it's a passive process so it's fine good good all right so.
[1:36:54] Yeah so we can we can keep this relatively brief. And this is the final boss of parenting. So, okay, so let's say that your son smacks you in the face, right? Because he does, right? Both hands, right? Smacks you in the face, right? Your feeling is anger, shock?
[1:37:19] Yeah, it's mostly anger.
[1:37:21] Okay, so what's wrong with being angry with your son?
[1:37:30] It disconnects me from my son.
[1:37:32] Your anger disconnects you from your son.
[1:37:38] Yes that that's how it feels yes.
[1:37:41] Why i mean anger is honesty isn't it he honestly did something that was upsetting, yeah so you're saying that honesty and openness and directness with your son is disconnecting.
[1:38:03] Maybe negative feelings towards my son is disconnecting.
[1:38:08] So okay but why negative feelings towards your son is not disconnecting, It's you disconnect because you find it unacceptable to express anger towards your son because your parents unjustly bullied you.
[1:38:30] Yes, yeah. Any negative feelings from my parents towards us would result in punishment.
[1:38:43] Yeah, very, very negative. Well, not just punishment. I mean, punishment can be just, right? But abuse.
[1:38:50] Yes, that's the correct word to use here. Right.
[1:38:53] So, for you to get angry at your son is just being honest.
[1:39:04] Yeah, so him, I don't know, experiencing that anger or seeing that anger in me would be enough. I don't need to put him down. That's what you're saying?
[1:39:18] Well, no, you still think about all this indirect stuff. I'm just saying, if your son smacks you in the face and you say, hey, that really, really upsets me. I do not like that at all. Ow, that hurts. And I don't like it when you hit me. Okay what's wrong with that is that abusive.
[1:39:38] Not at all no it's honest yes but.
[1:39:43] What happens is he gets disconnected and rejected by you putting him down and withdrawing emotionally from the situation and he.
[1:39:54] Also doesn't get the.
[1:39:55] Direct feedback of what he's doing and how much it hurts.
[1:40:01] You i do i do let him know that i don't just put him down i say that hurts our uh yeah that hurts mama doesn't like it and then i i like while putting him down or i put him down first and then i say that but i don't just say it and walk away i i put him down and i i tell him what what he's done wrong well.
[1:40:22] But that's a moral lecture and he's too young for a moral lecture.
[1:40:25] He needs.
[1:40:26] To learn the impact of his actions on others. And that means being honest and vulnerable and anger is a kind of vulnerability to him directly. Because if you give him a moral lecture, then it doesn't necessarily, it might grow his moral reasoning in the abstract, but it won't grow his direct empathy.
[1:40:50] Okay. So what's the difference between you saying, oh, that really hurts and I don't like that, and me saying this really hurts and putting him down.
[1:40:58] Well, because you need to stay in emotional contact with him.
[1:41:05] Oh, I see, I see, I see. Disconnecting and, yeah, got it. It's being disconnected. That is the big difference there.
[1:41:16] Right. I mean, there's nothing wrong with, I mean, your children need to also learn how to handle when people are angry with them. And they certainly need to know that hitting someone is painful and unpleasant for that person. And to be honest and authentic with your kids is not always easy. Right? So my daughter went through kind of a no phase, so she didn't want to do stuff. And it's like, okay, then that's fine. Freedom for you is freedom for me. Right? So, if you say no to a whole bunch of stuff, then I'm not going to feel very motivated to do stuff. Right? And it's not manipulative, it's just honest, right?
[1:42:02] Mm-hmm.
[1:42:08] And I think, I certainly, I mean, I'm sure your son is 95% of the way there, but that sort of extra 5% of just my actions have really upsetting implications. And when we're upset, in general, the most common response is to make the other person morally wrong and then withdraw from the situation. As opposed to staying in contact and really explaining and being vulnerable. And open and direct yeah and it's not just that moment it's like when when you hit me i get nervous because i don't i hate getting hit i really don't like it it's really really horrible for me and yeah and if and i don't want to carry you and and i i'm nervous whenever you get excited i'm waiting to be hit like that that is not fun for me i don't like it.
[1:43:02] Yeah that's actually what happens yes yes.
[1:43:04] Yeah i know so it's it's it's a big effect right you know if if not that I ever would, but if I randomly hit you whenever I got excited, you'd get pretty nervous every time I got excited too.
[1:43:15] So you can use that as a, you know, sometimes I can see when we're on the playground and someone is playing with a tractor and he's like, oh, tractor. And he runs towards and I'm like, oh, I can see it happening. And I stop him in the tracks and I'm like, do you want that tractor? And he's like, yes, yes, I want the tractor. I was like, do we grab tractors? Do we like it if someone takes your tractor? And he's like, no. And then I ask him, so do we take someone else's tractor? And he's like, no. So, but I'm not sure he gets that yet. So like, you don't like it when it's done to you, so you don't do it to others. But that's what I try.
[1:43:53] That does help. But there's another option too, because this is win-lose. Either the other kid plays with the tractor and he doesn't, or he plays with the tractor because he grabbed it and the other kid doesn't, right? But what's the big challenge is, how are you going to get that kid to want to share his tractor?
[1:44:15] Oh, I'm reading PET. It's called a win-win situation.
[1:44:19] Right, right. So what you could do is you could bring over a whole bunch of dirt and say, let's take turns moving this dirt. Or, you know, how are you going to get that kid to want to share his tractor? Because right now it's like, well, either you take the tractor or he keeps the tractor. So that's win-lose, right? But the real challenge, and he's old enough for this, he's a smart kid, I'm sure, right? You and your husband are both very intelligent, so I'm sure he's a smart kid. So then the challenge is not to oh my god I've got to stop him from grabbing the tractor it's like your mission young man should you choose to accept it is to find a way to get that kid to want to share his tractor with you.
[1:44:54] Got it okay so I give him the mission of trying to find a way to get that other kid to share it's not like I find the mission for them both to share it.
[1:45:03] Yeah you have to make it more fun for that kid to play with you than to play on his own So how do you do that? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, right? But there's a way.
[1:45:17] Got it got it it's it had the same thing happens to toys okay i hope you have more time otherwise you cut me off and we i hope to reschedule um the same thing happens with like my two boys that i have now the six month old is now at the grabbing phase whatever is in front of him whatever he can reach and he can like pivot 360 around his own axe or kind of not not well but he kind of can so he's starting to reach for other toys and if he grabs whatever toy he has is what my older wants or if he grabs something that the older, he wasn't even playing with it but if the older one is playing with cars there's 10 cars and one of them is grabbed by the baby then that's of course the car that the older now wants and he yanks it out of the baby's hands how do I navigate that because, how do I navigate that.
[1:46:15] Right so he's got 10 cars he's only playing with two of them the baby grabs a car.
[1:46:20] One that he's not playing with yes right right so the question.
[1:46:25] Is why is he so territorial about the cars like that's the question because there's there's something in his mind, and that's i assume because for him things are win-lose and that's because he's punished.
[1:46:44] Hmm so you're saying not all kids are that territorial i thought it was an age thing.
[1:46:50] Uh again i i mean i know i have i know at least half a dozen families with four or five or six kids.
[1:46:56] And there's.
[1:46:57] A little bit of that but it is for the most part it is they certainly are thinking of a guy i know who's got four boys and they uh they share pretty well and they play together I've never seen them have that kind of stuff I don't think it's naturally innate.
[1:47:12] I see I see understood so you're saying it's because of punishment because he views this as a punishment maybe or what's your thing I'm.
[1:47:26] Trying to get into that mindset, now you guys don't take do you take away toys as punishment no Okay. Now, if he's in the raw calculation stage, right, so then what he's saying is, I might want to play with that toy later, or I might not get that toy back if my brother gets a hold of it. Is that right? Like, it would be, I'm trying to, I'm trying to understand his thinking here.
[1:48:02] Oh, I got it. Okay. Okay. That's also interesting what you're, like, how you're solving this here. You're, you're trying to get into his mindset and see where, where is he at? Right. i don't.
[1:48:13] Want to just judge him as oh.
[1:48:14] He's mean and selfish and he's not even playing.
[1:48:15] With that because that.
[1:48:16] That doesn't really help so the question.
[1:48:19] Is why why when his brother grabs the car.
[1:48:23] Then he says well it could be something else that he's not on car.
[1:48:28] And that's bad sorry go ahead.
[1:48:29] It could even be a toy he's currently not playing with so he's playing with the cars and the toddler or the the baby is grabbing a train track of of it like and the train track is just laying there it's not even connected to to to around to a full thing is.
[1:48:49] He concerned has the baby damaged any of his toys in the past as babies naturally will as they grab and pull things.
[1:48:57] Zero times but uh i'm waiting for it to happen yeah i mean it's gonna happen this thing has just yeah this thing has just started so he hasn't he hasn't even i think one time but that was very reason it was like three weeks into this conflict starting he's built the train track and the baby's pulled apart two of them but then you can just put them back together but that was just once, okay so i would imagine i would imagine.
[1:49:24] That what we need to be here is proactive so it'd be something like this so let's say that the two boys are playing on the ground and there's a, So I would say to my eldest boy, well, your brother's going to want to play with toys, right? Your brother's going to want to play with toys. And the question is, how are we going to do this, right? Because obviously he's going to grab things, you're going to grab things. So what toys can we divide so that if your brother plays with them, it's okay with you?
[1:49:55] So basically, yeah, like which toys are for sharing and which are not for sharing?
[1:50:00] Yeah, which can he grab? Now, if you want all of these 10 toys, that's fine. But understand that your brother loves you and wants to be like you, so he's going to want to play with what you're playing with. So what disposable toys can we have? What decoys can we have?
[1:50:15] Okay, so we grab it.
[1:50:17] It's fine.
[1:50:17] Yes. Yes. Oh, great idea.
[1:50:22] So it's always proactive. If there's problems that keep occurring, then proactively finding a way to solve them. Now, if he says, well, all the toys have to be mine, and say, well, that's not really an option, right? I mean, he's a kid, right? And if you were a little kid, you wouldn't want to have no toys, right? Like when you're playing with older kids, if they didn't let you play with any toys, you'd be upset. So it's not like he can't have any toys. So then the question is, what toys can he play with so that you're both satisfied, right? And then you can put a little line down or a ruler or like, I don't know what it is, but just make it so that he can be part of part of the solution rather than have the solution imposed. Like, give it back, or you can't grab that from him. Like, that's all just reactive, but it needs, the problems in life are almost always better solved proactively than reactively. So, if this is a repetitive issue, and it is, then.
[1:51:19] And with the hitting, it's like, okay, so let's say some other, if some other kid hits you in the park, like hits you on the face in the park, what should happen, right? And, okay, then if you hit me would you would you accept the same thing so uh so that he understands ahead of time then it's not consequences if he understands it ahead of time it's not a punishment sorry it's not a punishment if he understands it ahead of time if he agrees ahead of time right like if you say if you eat your you have to eat your broccoli before you have a piece of candy right that's not a punishment if he doesn't eat his broccoli and you don't give him the candy that's consequences because he already agreed to it ahead of time like if somebody robbed me of 50 bucks that's that's a theft but if i agree to pay someone 50 bucks for something that's not a theft that's that's, that's consequences because i agreed so whatever you can get the kids to agree to ahead of time, is is then then you're imposing consequences not punishment.
[1:52:14] Got it got it, so it's not uh him agreeing to if if he hits me that i'm then i put him down but it's saying hey we don't like this and uh didn't we agree to not doing this.
[1:52:29] Well i mean so it would be like okay so let's say you're at the park and some kid hits you in the face what would you want me to do, right would you want me to take you away from that kid right would you want that kid to suffer any punishments or negative consequences right well yes okay so so if you hit me in the face should it be the same? And so he has to understand all of that stuff ahead of time, but also try and get into the mindset of what is he trying to do, right? What is he trying to achieve? What is he trying to do by smacking you in the face? And as a parent, you always have to, you can't put the devils in your kids. You always have to go with the assumption that as a parent, there's something that you have taught that the kid has learned accurately, but you don't like the consequences. So if for you, whenever you get really upset, you put him down or maybe you leave the room or whatever, then that's viewed as children as aggressive. So strong emotions lead to aggression is something that you and your husband might have imprinted on him. And so then finding a way to undo that is important. And there's no reason why you can't be both angry at your children and incredibly connected and close to them. Anger can be very unifying because it's honest and it's direct in a way that just putting the kid down or giving a moral lecture doesn't connect.
[1:53:57] Understood. Understood.
[1:53:59] Okay. I know you've got a massive, massive baby work to do. Um, and, uh, I, you know, I wish I could do something about the sleep, but that's just the nature of the beast. But I really do appreciate the conversation as a whole. And, and it sounds like you and your husband are just doing like fantastic work and and it's enormously to be to be praised and honored.
[1:54:16] Thank you so much for all you do and everything that you've contributed it's uh thanks to you that i i'm doing what i'm doing um i'm a stay-at-home mom thanks to you thanks to the conversation we've had and uh yeah the parenting style i very much copy what you do i listen to all the podcasts that have been released like 15 years ago to get some advice good to know that.
[1:54:39] Old school is still cooking all right well keep me posted about how things are going and all my very best.
[1:54:43] To you and your family i got this uh last one um use this is a paid call so i is are is there an amount you would like or yeah yeah i'll uh.
[1:54:54] I'll put it in the i'll put it in the chat and uh if you want to have this go public or not that's totally up to you but uh.
[1:54:59] Um you.
[1:55:00] Can decide that after.
[1:55:02] Sounds good sounds good all right thank you have a good one okay.
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