0:04 - Finding Love Again
0:56 - The Big Breakup
5:52 - Relationship Dynamics
7:28 - The Question of Marriage
8:39 - Religion and Relationships
9:22 - Understanding Attachment Styles
12:21 - The Role of Introversion
17:30 - The Nature of Commitment
18:06 - The Uncertainty of Love
19:30 - The Emotional Toll
22:22 - Childhood Influences
31:32 - Coping with Fear
34:39 - The Weight of Expectations
37:19 - Lessons from Parents
48:56 - Family Dynamics
53:19 - Personal Reflection
1:00:23 - The Impact of Marriage
1:06:30 - Navigating Open Relationships
1:09:38 - Seeking Support
1:17:25 - Marriage Struggles and Self-Discovery
1:24:56 - The Pain of Divorce
1:37:02 - Financial and Emotional Turmoil
1:43:13 - The Challenge of Honesty
2:04:12 - The Cost of Deception
2:16:54 - Embracing Truth for Love
In this episode, we delve into an intricate and emotional conversation centered around love, relationships, and the psychological patterns that influence them. The caller, 43 years old and navigating the turbulent waters of romance after navigating through a sexless marriage and subsequent heartbreaks, seeks clarity on his struggles with finding lasting love. He shares his recent experience of a two-and-a-half-year relationship that ended painfully due to misaligned expectations about marriage.
Through our dialogue, we explore the emotional aftermath of his breakup, especially regarding the stark differences in views on commitment between him and his past partners, particularly a woman he dated from a Christian singles group who ultimately expressed her reluctance toward marriage. The caller openly reflects on how he initially ignored her hesitancies, projecting his desires onto the relationship instead of addressing them directly, which led to eventual heartbreak. We discuss his feelings of insecurity and inadequacy stemming from a childhood filled with religious upbringing and emotional turmoil in his parents' relationship, which shaped his views on love and acceptance.
I guide him through the complexities of attachment styles and past experiences that have shaped his dating life. We touch on the impact of his upbringing on his current dating patterns, including fear of rejection and feelings of unworthiness that keep him trapped in unhealthy dynamics. This conversation serves as a critical examination of how deceit, whether from others or oneself, erodes the foundation of romantic relationships, preventing genuine love from flourishing.
Further, we unpack the idea of emotional honesty and the importance it holds in building meaningful relationships. I urge him to confront his fears and express his needs authentically, warning that generic approaches won't yield success. This episode serves as a stark reminder that vulnerability and openness are essential elements in fostering genuine connections, ultimately pushing him towards a path of self-discovery. Through our conversation, we dismantle the fear-driven behaviors that led to previous failures in love, encouraging a commitment to truth as the cornerstone of future relationships.
We conclude with a sense of hope that, although his journey has been marred by difficulty, practicing honesty and confronting his truths will lead him towards a more fulfilling love life. He leaves with a renewed perspective, determined to embrace vulnerability in his next steps towards finding the love and family he desires.
[0:00] So the question I've been struggling with is, should I give up on love?
[0:04] And what I wrote in is, I will never give up on finding love, because more than anything, I want a wife and a family. But I'm in a rough spot after a difficult breakup with a woman who didn't want to get married after a two-and-a-half-year relationship. I was previously in a sexless marriage for most of my youth, and I wonder how that, my religiosity, and my history are affecting me now. and what I can do to make the most of the time I have. I'm 43, and I know you're a Pink Floyd fan. I've got time just thumping in my chest all the time. I'm empathic, loving, well into my self-knowledge journey. Spiritual, I make good money as an IT professional. I'm tall. People have even told me I'm good-looking. I work out regularly. I've been porn-free for two years.
[0:56] it's so discouraging how hard dating has been after my 2016 divorce i know you spend a lot of time talking about relationships with callers and after a very excuse me after a very recent breakup from a two-month relationship i found i thought was promising after the aforementioned two and a half year relationship i feel i could use an outside perspective on what to work on and do differently right.
[1:22] I appreciate that and you know looking for love is is a big challenge and i'm happy to uh chat about it and i mean happy to hear about childhood i'm happy to hear about um the last relationship where do you think we should start.
[1:34] You know first i just want to say that uh i've been a listener for a long time your material has really helped me out a lot uh and i really appreciate that um i guess it's starting with the recent two and a half your relationship because that's been it's kind of been the epicenter of my life for the past six months and sorry how.
[1:55] Old are you.
[1:56] I'm 43 43.
[1:58] Okay got it.
[1:59] Sorry go ahead yeah so i met my um, i met that relationship two and a half years i'm going to refer to them as the big breakup and the little breakup just to keep it easy in my head but the woman i met in the big breakup we met in a christian um singles group and you know it was it was a great relationship as far as i could tell that's why it's been so hard we got along well talked that great conversations did lots of things that we enjoyed together um she told me at the very beginning that she wasn't sure if she ever wanted to get married and i should have listened to her um because about a year in she told me we went to a wedding for one of her co-workers and after that wedding.
[2:56] She told me she never saw herself up on the altar, and naturally that scared the shit out of me and i was i was so afraid to lose her i didn't i didn't really pressure or push her um or i tried not to i mean i did um i did push to get married in different ways down the line which i'm sure we can get into um and gosh like, you know we got to the point where she really did not want to get married and all she would tell me is that she needed time to herself and she wasn't sure if she could put together put forth, all that being a wife and mother required and so we broke up last fall and it's it's been devastating, i've never felt grief like this before i'm.
[3:55] So sorry how um how old is she.
[3:57] She's 34 she's.
[3:59] 34 and so she met you met when she was like what 31 and a half kind of thing right.
[4:03] That's right yeah okay.
[4:05] Got it all right okay and as you said you didn't really ask her or she had some indications about hesitancy towards marriage but um it wasn't as much as you thought could be overcome is that right.
[4:23] Yeah that's right you know i've always um felt that you do you pay attention to what people do, not so much what people say, And I met her family that Christmas. I spent quite a bit of time with her family. She's met my family on several occasions. We're both religious. We spent a lot of time going to church together. Had really deep and intimate conversations, as you would expect, for a two-and-a-half-year relationship. So it seemed like, okay, this is it. She wants, I mean, of course, I'm projecting my own. my own desires um and i was afraid to tell her to really ask her like well what do you what do you want and she would always tell me something like she wasn't sure what she wanted from her life and you know that's manifested in in this breakup but yeah um i wanted to change her mind so to speak and thought i could okay.
[5:31] And so she would claim to be religious uh isn't doesn't uh it's christian right.
[5:36] That's right okay specifically catholic right.
[5:40] So isn't catholicism somewhat embedded with you know go forth and procreate.
[5:45] That's what i thought too no.
[5:48] No that's not what i think isn't that.
[5:49] What it is yeah yeah absolutely so.
[5:53] She's not that religious.
[5:55] Well she she is i mean she would not miss church no no who cares about going to church what matters I mean.
[6:04] Not that it doesn't matter, but it's like saying she goes to the gym, but she doesn't work out. I mean, the whole point of going to the gym is to work out, and the whole point of going to church is to live the values, right?
[6:14] Yeah, can't argue with that.
[6:16] So, yeah. What was her explanation as to why she claimed to be Catholic, but didn't want to get married and procreate? Now, again, she wants to be a nun or something like that, but what was her theory about that or her story about that?
[6:37] Well, you know, um, she would emotionally block up when I would really push her. I would ask her these questions, exactly that, what you're asking me. Um, why don't you want to get married? What's, what's the stop? What's the deal? And she would, she would start to cry and just emotionally freeze up. And I feel bad. Um, and I'd want to.
[7:03] Oh, so she was manipulated that way. like i can't it's upsetting it's just a way of avoiding answers right yeah i mean i'm not trying to you know besmirch your your affection or your love for the woman but that's not that's not fair right she she knew you wanted to get married and it's it's not fair to not answer the question.
[7:29] Yeah and you know in fairness i didn't want to hear the answer if it wasn't going to be no and.
[7:34] I know what is another central tenet of Christianity thou shalt not bear what? False witness you don't lie so if somebody says why don't you want to get married who wants to get married you have a responsibility to tell the truth, so again I'm trying to figure out where this super duper religiosity is coming from, Yeah.
[8:06] It's been a struggle for me too.
[8:07] I mean, men tend to see religion as a series of rules. Women tend to see religion as a series of comforts. Men follow religion regardless of the discomfort. Women often resist religion's discomforts and follow it for serenity, for sanctuary, for solace. but they don't, a lot of times, don't quite seem to see that religion exists to go against our instincts to prevaricate or to lie or to mislead or to exploit.
[8:40] Hmm.
[8:43] And we don't, obviously she's not here, so we don't have to get into too much detail, but why wasn't she married?
[8:51] That's another good question because i was her first serious relationship at 32 31 which is very late you know she was a good-looking gal i thought i had struck the law i thought i had struck gold to meet somebody that was in my age range but also had not a ton of experience, and well without asking.
[9:17] Yourself the question how is this amazing um how is this amazing woman still on the market.
[9:23] Right, right you know i've done a lot of reading on after the breakup on attachment styles and i know it's not necessarily philosophical but it's been helpful for me, i definitely tend toward anxiety in my life i've done a lot of work to curtail that and to work on that um after reading about avoidant attachment styles attack or avoided people in general that's kind of my working hypothesis as to what happened where you know we got too close and for whatever reason in spite of all of her beliefs and religiosity and all of that, she just couldn't deal with being close to someone and pushed me away.
[10:10] Okay she couldn't deal with that i'm not sure what that means.
[10:15] Hmm well um, you know when we first started dating we had no problem talking about anything or so it seemed but it was early stages right and then i again when i when i pushed her when i when i you know i so for example i'd say let's read this book on relationships to get ready for marriage, she didn't really want to read the book um then i'd say let's go talk to, um let's go talk to a priest you know and figure out what's going on and she didn't really want to do that either sorry.
[11:00] The religious i'm sorry the religious woman didn't want to talk to.
[11:03] The priest for advice yeah all right, yeah and you know in retrospect i could see i could see the the red flags um, i don't know why she didn't i don't know well you know what i really want to take responsibility because she told me from the beginning that she wasn't sure and then she told me when she told me at that after that wedding that she wasn't sure if she ever wanted to get married i was so scared to lose her that i just buried it and you know what i should have done at that moment has been Why the hell don't you want to get married? What the hell is going on? This is a big deal for me. Maybe not that aggressively.
[11:46] But yeah.
[11:47] Yeah. My anger is there. I feel like all my emotions are just within arm's reach right now. But you're right. Maybe not that aggressively. but uh i really regret just like rolling over and not really tackling it head-on at the time and instead kind of adopting a strategy of, well i'll show her how awesome i am and then change her mind that way right.
[12:22] Okay and so you met her 31 and a half you you broke up when she was 34 is that right.
[12:30] That's right okay.
[12:33] And you don't have any idea why she didn't want to get married but wanted to date.
[12:39] You know i asked her out and she said she's not sure now she seemed very enthusiastic, in the early stages of dating you know with the affection and we never got we never had sex all the way we came pretty close she was enthusiastic about that and given my history of being in a sexless marriage i was like oh okay this lady you know she's um she's we align on values and she likes sex this is awesome um which i assume if you like sex and you like the company of a man you like affection you know you like all doing all the things that couples do that you would want to continue that forward and get married so yeah it's been really frustrating because experiencing all of that and then getting to the point where okay let's do this and then, we don't because she says she's she's not not available for that for whatever reason, when we broke up actually she wrote me a note and she said that her commitment level doesn't rise up to what's required for marriage, and she's not she's not confident that she will be able to stand beside me no matter what.
[14:04] Okay i i don't really know what that means but.
[14:06] All right yeah i'm right there with you.
[14:13] Okay, so tell me the things that you liked better.
[14:21] Well, you know, in the hot crazy matrix, they say that the standard, the crazy starts at a four, right? And I feel like as far as looks go, any woman that takes care of herself and isn't overweight probably starts at a five or a six. She was about there. you know i was initially attracted to her looks um but then she told me that she took concealed carry classes from a guy that i was also training with and my interest level shot up to like an 11, so i liked her conservative values uh she's she was smart um she was a scientist chemist She studied chemistry and worked in a lab. Took a nerd out about science stuff together. We talked about religion and faith extensively and connected on that. So I really appreciated that. Her family was decent. Definitely some issues there. But considering my previous relationship, it was like a walk in the park, what it felt like. And besides all that, we just had my previous relationship.
[15:37] Do you mean your marriage?
[15:39] That's right.
[15:39] Okay, got it.
[15:40] Yeah. Yeah, and besides that, you know, we were into the same kind of things outdoors, camping, hiking. I'm in the Mountain West now, so that's a lifestyle. And she's an adventurous person, so she was always down to go with me and go out in the woods and hike up a mountain. So we had a lot in common. and i've listened to enough of these calls to know that by asking myself well what are the virtues, um she was a she was a caring and loving especially no no no i was gonna say to you No.
[16:28] No, come on. You can't say that she strung you along with maybe, maybe for a couple of years, knowing that you're older and you want to get married. And then just by golly, but she's just such a kind and loving person. No, I can't give you that. I mean, that's just, that's functionally impossible.
[16:46] That's fair.
[16:48] So what are you trying to sell me here and why? You know this one, right? You know.
[16:54] I do.
[16:56] I mean, nice try, I guess. Yeah.
[17:00] I do. I will admit, you know, um, you know, I've heard a lot of these calls and being on here with, with you, it's, it's definitely, I'm feeling pretty straight down emotionally.
[17:09] I just want to get away from automatic talk, you know, like, oh, she was nice and she was sweet and she was this and she was that. But none of that's particularly true. I mean, if it was true, then she wouldn't have strung you along in this kind of way, which is unbearably cruel, right? I mean, she, she took up and it's one thing she's in her thirties, you're in her forties, you're in your 40s right so she.
[17:30] Took you from.
[17:31] Your late 30s to your early 40s um without a an answer and without giving you a clear answer until the end right, i mean that that's not that's not caring that's not caring for someone.
[17:48] Yeah and she would probably say something like well you were fine with it you know you um i told you i didn't i wouldn't want to get married when we first met and then And I told you after a year and, you know, you stuck around. It's probably what she was saying.
[18:03] Did she say from the very beginning, she didn't want to get married?
[18:06] No, she said she wasn't sure.
[18:08] So that's a lie then. I mean, if she were to say, I said, I didn't want to get married when she simply said she wasn't sure. That's a different matter, right?
[18:19] Right. Right. Because there's uncertainty there.
[18:24] Well, there's a possibility, right?
[18:26] Right.
[18:28] So that's bearing false witness as well Now of course she might say Well I thought maybe I would Or could or whatever right And then don't you know it just turned out That it didn't really work for me Gosh don't you know right So yeah I mean that's certainly a possibility right, And what do you Do you think that's the case that she was open to it And then she wasn't Something happened over the two and a half years That she just didn't want to get married I guess to you.
[18:57] Well that's kind of scary you know that i just didn't cut the mustard on some level, um i've.
[19:07] Been spending a lot of time right i mean yeah we shouldn't have to theorize because did she indicate that there were things that were deficient in the relationship no.
[19:19] No she told me it's not you it's a typical it's not you it's me.
[19:22] That's all i got okay so so but she went from maybe wanting to get married to not wanting to get married when she was dating you.
[19:31] So what changed? Or was she lying from the beginning that she just knew she was never going to get married, but she didn't want to tell you because she wanted to date you?
[19:43] You know, when the last conversation we had, she said, sorry that you were the guinea pig, which implied to me that maybe I was, in her mind, trying out what it's like to be with a man, to have a boyfriend, and maybe think about marriage. But in the end, she decided that it wasn't for her.
[20:05] Okay, but why not? What did she say? At least what we don't know for sure, maybe, but what did she say?
[20:09] Right. Well, what she told me over several conversations is that she has a need for a lot of free time to herself, time to herself. She's an extreme introvert, and that if she's married to me, she doesn't know how she could navigate her need for time and space and still fulfill her duties as a wife.
[20:36] Okay so she knew that about marriage to begin with so what was the maybe.
[20:42] That's a good point and you know we spent a lot of time together in the first well throughout our relationship i was basically at her house like four days a week, and we'd have conversations like well maybe we're spending too much time together we should take some time apart but i never got that she'd always mention something like that and i'd say like okay that's fine you know i'll go do some my own thing on a sunday evening or saturday afternoon or whatever and it seemed like it was fine i never got the sense that i was smothering her, so yeah i'm quite i'm quite confused um by by that that she knew that she that as a christian the purpose of dating is marriage and we both agreed on that, And, uh, that eventually those demands would be made on her time and she dated me anyway.
[21:47] Okay. Do you know why she was an introvert or so introverted? Did she have any trauma in her youth or was that just her nature or what was the story there?
[21:57] I didn't experience her as that introverted, like as a recluse.
[22:02] Extreme introvert. I'm just trying to follow what you said.
[22:04] Yeah, no, I got you. Those were her words. And I was always confused by that as well, because my experience with her is that our time together, I never got the sense that it was too much or that she was overwhelmed. She does have some trauma in her past.
[22:23] Sorry, sorry. I was a little confused. I thought she told you explicitly that you were spending too much time together and she needed time apart. Did I misunderstand that?
[22:32] No, I think maybe you misunderstood the degree to which.
[22:36] Well i think goes with what you're telling me right so you said she was an extreme introvert and that sunday nights or whatever she'd say we're spending too much time together i need time apart right but then you can also say she didn't give me an indication of how introverted she was or how much she needed time apart because she said that to you directly if i understand what you're saying no.
[22:57] No that's fair that's fair to say what i wanted to add the caveat that the that conversation we're spending too much time apart let's not spend sunday nights together.
[23:07] No no spending too much time together right.
[23:10] We're spending too much time together.
[23:12] Okay let's.
[23:13] Take a sunday apart from each other that conversation happened maybe once every two months so.
[23:21] And how was she with socializing with say your friends or your family i mean did she seem introverted in that way as well.
[23:27] No no she seemed normal. Normal. I know that's a, what does that mean?
[23:35] She, I get it. Just normal amount of gregariousness or sociability.
[23:39] Right.
[23:39] Okay. Got it. All right. So maybe the introverted thing was an excuse.
[23:47] Possibly. I know that word.
[23:51] Right? I mean, possibly, maybe she was a space alien. That's possible too, I suppose, but I don't know how to, how to navigate the vaguely possible stuff. uh okay so what is it how did it end was there anything that happened in particular when it ended.
[24:11] Yeah i was getting really frustrated and more i guess i was putting more pressure, on our relationship with just what the fuck are we doing here what are we doing.
[24:28] Um and the day that we broke up i had set up an appointment to talk to a priest for the two of us and let me back up a little bit we went to a wedding another wedding, with the mutual friends and this couple had met before we did and here they are getting married so it was a very difficult wedding for me to sit through because i'm like i want to be up there i want to get married why are we still in this nebulous dating phase so after that point, i think my patience was pretty much at its end and i so i had made a i had made an appointment to talk to a priest which she agreed to go to and then canceled and then i went anyway, and when i went and talked to the priest and you know got some advice from him, spiritual advice and then i shared with her that i went to the priest and here's what he said and then that started the conversation that ended our relationship and basically you know she said, i'm done i'm not going to do this i'm not going to get married so we ended up taking a two-week break, but that ended up in us breaking up after the two weeks were over.
[25:54] And why was she upset as a Catholic or as a Christian that you went to talk to a priest to get advice?
[26:02] She wasn't upset that I went to talk to the priest. She was, I think, upset that this marriage question kept coming up and kept coming up and it wasn't going to go away. and my, it seems to me that she was just i'm done and was she done in.
[26:25] Kind of like an angry way or or what.
[26:28] No she was i could tell that she didn't want to hurt my feelings, and that she was it was difficult for her to make that decision she had indicated that, in the months before and i didn't know this that she was emotionally tormented, by the prospect of getting married and feeling a lot of pressure to get married, i really regret that we didn't talk about it because i didn't i didn't know that she felt this way not until the very end, but basically what she said was I'm emotionally tapped out and I've got nothing else I don't know what.
[27:17] That means emotionally tapped out.
[27:20] Something like I, I can't stand feeling this way anymore, so I'm going to make these feelings stop by breaking up with you.
[27:33] And the feeling this way was related to you guys getting married, and you wanted to get married, right?
[27:39] Right, the pressure that she was experiencing.
[27:43] Okay.
[27:44] Right.
[27:44] So she doesn't want to have kids, she doesn't want to get married, and that's just the way it was, right? And at some point, I mean, did you get a sense that there was anything that changed wherein she was open to the idea of marriage and then she wasn't?
[28:03] Not a black and white shift from open to not.
[28:06] No, of course it's not a black and white shift by definition. It's going to be subtle. But that's my question. Was there anything that you noticed or thought about?
[28:17] All i can think of was that wedding that we went to for her co-worker where two days later she said she doesn't see herself up on the altar and i found out later during our breakup conversation that she expected me to break up with her in that moment so i've wondered if she intended to break up with me in a subtle way you know not breaking up with me directly but saying something that would make me break up with her because I want to get married and she basically says she doesn't.
[28:47] Okay. So was it just her looks? Was it mostly her looks that had you so hopeful?
[28:56] That's a big part of it, if I'm honest.
[28:58] Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's a risk, right?
[29:01] Yeah.
[29:03] Okay. So you spent two and a half years with this woman. She ended up not wanting to get married, we assume in general, but certainly to you, right? right and why and how long ago did you break up.
[29:17] That was last fall so about six months ago.
[29:21] Okay and how long have you been listening to what i do over 10 years so why the hell wouldn't you call me.
[29:28] Honestly um yeah let's.
[29:30] Be honest why not.
[29:31] Yeah i i was i was so enthralled that a woman gave that gave me the time of day that i was attracted to everything just kind of fell by the wayside and i was often happy la la land i get you know, i mean i didn't know but you're not a teenager.
[29:49] Bro, i mean you've you've got a tortured relationship with a woman where you want to get married and She's kind of flitting around like some butterfly in a.
[30:00] Windstorm.
[30:02] And you've been listening to me for 10 years. And, you know, you can do whatever you want, obviously. But I'm just kind of curious why you wouldn't call me.
[30:13] I felt something. I felt some pretty substantial fears. I was terrified of losing her. And I didn't even want to look at the fear. I'm just like, that fear is in his door.
[30:29] The fact that you're living in terror of losing a woman after years of dating is a seriously bad sign, isn't it?
[30:38] Yes, it is.
[30:40] You know, it's like if you've had a job for two years and you go in every day with your palms sweating that you're going to get screamed at and fired, that's a toxic work environment, isn't it?
[30:50] Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking back.
[30:56] And how attractive do you think it was to this woman for you to be so cucked and terrified of her and feeling out of your league and out of your depth and she's too good for me and I've got to beg. And my God, that's gross to women as it would be to a man, right? If there was some woman who was just completely terrified of you and just always nervous that you were going to dump her month after month, year after year, wouldn't that get kind of exhausting and annoying?
[31:28] Yeah, absolutely.
[31:32] Okay, so let's go to childhood, right? Because this is childhood stuff, right? That you have no leverage, that you've just got to cross your fingers and hope and beg, and then you get angry when your needs aren't met. And then you fear again, right? That's got to be a mom thing or maybe a dad thing, probably a mom thing. So let's talk about your mom.
[31:53] Where to start? The very beginning? My childhood? Well, what I remember from my childhood is being dragged to church against my will. The religion was laid on really thick and powerfully. my parents did not get along for as long as I can remember and it was centered around the religion, my mother wanted everybody to, to follow along in lockstep and my dad was like nope uh you know i'm not i'm not there i'm not i'm not on the same page.
[32:40] So you have to talk to me like i'm not you right so you're saying things that make sense to you how on earth am i supposed to know what you mean by my mom wanted us to walk along in lockstep and my father didn't i have no idea it's lockstep refer to religion does it refer to chores does it refer to obedience to the parents or the mother like so tell me tell me stuff like i don't know it already because i don't yeah and that's automatic speak right so you've got to be alive to the conversation and be aware of what i know and don't know and not give me automatic language which is stuff you've talked about to yourself a million times before so let's try that run again with your parents not getting along.
[33:19] Yeah thanks for the guidance i'm surprised at how anxious i am um and uh my brain i i'm trying to access things and feeling blocked.
[33:31] But i'll try again about the block then um what do you think is blocking you at the moment.
[33:37] Uh well i want to do a good job on this call uh i want to get whatever.
[33:42] No nobody needs to be said good job on this call is just being honest and direct right yeah so you can't try to do a good job on the call yeah.
[33:55] I should just do.
[33:56] Well because that's just right to.
[33:58] Be honest yeah.
[33:59] Right like i mean if if i say i want to sit in the chair right i just go sit in the chair i don't sit there and say well i'm going to try and sit in the chair and i've already got a strain to sit in the chair and i want to get sitting in the chair right that wouldn't make much sense right this is just an honest and direct you know bro to bro conversation so don't worry about trying to get things right And don't worry about self-editing or saving time or anything like that. You know, just be aware that I don't know anything about your history. So don't assume I know anything because I don't. Right. And let's, you know, just sort of take a deep breath if everything's fine. And just try the telling me about your.
[34:40] Yeah.
[34:41] Because you also said like the differences was in religion and then you moved on to something else. I don't know. I don't even know what religion they were. Rastafarian and Zoroastrian, I don't know, right? So I don't know anything about what you're talking about. And so you can't sort of, you know, like how you skip rocks on the water, right? Just go on the surface. I need to know what's going on. So tell me a bit more about your parents' marriage on the assumption that I know nothing.
[35:09] Well, it wasn't good. They fought a lot, constantly screaming at each other, And it was a pattern of there would be a lot of like overly over the top lovey-dovey with a perfect couple and then a horrible fight.
[35:30] So I remember the perfect couple in public or private or for the kids or for others or at social gatherings or church. I'm not sure where's the perfect couple and then the screaming at each other. What are the two circumstances or environments?
[35:45] I remember mostly in the home to us, to their children.
[35:52] Oh, okay. So they would portray themselves to... And how many siblings do you have?
[35:56] I have two siblings.
[35:58] Okay. So they would portray themselves to you guys as the perfect couple. But then they'd be screaming at each... And what proportion of the time were they fighting or screaming at each other?
[36:12] Probably... And half of a given month, they would be screaming at each other. Is that right? Well, I'll just go with my gut feeling right now. Yeah, about 50-50. So, real strong switches between we're totally in love and we love each other and we absolutely hate each other.
[36:38] Right? So that would be a little tough to sustain, right?
[36:41] Yeah and they got divorced about um 10 years ago.
[36:49] Okay. So it's a bit schizo, right, to be screaming at each other and then say, hey, kids, we're the perfect couple.
[36:57] Yeah.
[37:00] Okay. All right. And tell me the difference in discipline or approach to that sort of thing between your mother and your father.
[37:11] My mother would discipline with a look and disappointment and emotions, I guess.
[37:19] Because she never spanked us. My father did, but it was something like a swat on the butt through clothes. And what I remember about his discipline is that it was almost like laughable. Like, really, this is all you've got? This is what I'm in trouble for? And he wouldn't follow through with things like grounding.
[37:47] Or um so i would get in trouble for something i can't i can't even remember what maybe coming home late later than i said i would and so it'd be where were you why'd you come late you're grounded you're grounded for a week and then after two days you know he'd forget about it, but with my mother um she would she would discipline us for almost like thought crimes, what i mean by that is if we're watching the wrong kind of movies or i remember having a set of pc gamer magazines this is back in the 90s and there would be advertisements in them for say doom or quake and they would be like a demon or something on the advertisement and she would look at that be like this is a demon and she'd rip out well one she would go through all my magazines and rip out those advertisements and throw them away, which drove me crazy. But also, she would make me.
[38:52] I don't want to say, I said she didn't spank, but she would be mad at me. And that was almost worse than the spanking, if that makes any sense.
[39:05] Well, what was it like when she was mad at you?
[39:11] That's a good question. I remember strongly not wanting to disappoint her. so i think most of it most of what i remember now is the internal shame of disappointing her now what did she what would she do she would scream you know she would uh she would yell, and pray loudly in a way that made me feel like i was going to hell oh.
[39:39] Yeah yeah that very self-conscious uh lord save these children i can't you know all that.
[39:44] Yeah exactly okay.
[39:46] Did she uh call you names.
[39:48] No she didn't call me names okay.
[39:53] So but you got the impression that you were going to go to hell.
[39:55] Yeah i.
[39:57] Mean that's really unpleasant for kids right it's terrifying.
[40:01] Yeah yeah and i remember being told that i'm not going to make it to eighth grade because what.
[40:09] Do you mean not make it to eighth grade.
[40:10] I'm not making it to eighth grade because the rapture is going to come and you know the second oh so there were very many times.
[40:16] As well like you're going.
[40:18] To hell on tuesday yeah yeah my mother was well.
[40:24] I mean did your father correct her.
[40:26] Nope all.
[40:28] Right so then they both were i mean i don't care what your father's beliefs were that which you let stand you to participate in, right?
[40:36] Absolutely.
[40:37] Okay. And what about your father?
[40:43] He was always at work, and I didn't really see much of him in the house, except on weekends, things like that. But it's not like the weekend would come and he's off work and we would go play ball. I would see him around the house more on weekends. i have a very very strained relationship with my father now and all of the my feelings about my father are directed at things in the present not so much back then when i in my early childhood, in my early childhood what i remember is that you know he suffered from ibs so he was always sick in some way i found out later that he was put on benzos for anxiety issues stemming from, uh fights that he would have with his with his brothers and his family sorry.
[41:49] At what age.
[41:51] Um this would have been in the mid-80s and he was born in the mid-50s so he would have been in his 30s yeah.
[41:57] In his 30s okay yeah and benzos can be i mean well just ask jordan peterson right pretty addictive.
[42:03] Yes they.
[42:04] Can string yeah pretty pretty rough.
[42:05] Yeah yeah yeah there was one, particular time i remember where he had a panic attack in public with me just me and him we were going to the mall or something and you know he had a panic attack i didn't have no idea i had no idea what was happening all i remembered is that he was in the bathroom for an extremely long time and the ambulance showed up and he was carted off. so yeah it's i there's not much coming up for me for my dad um when i was young it's like he let my mom run the show until moments when he didn't and then he'd get extremely aggressive and violent and he never hit my mother throwing objects across the room smashing um smashing plates and things like that.
[42:57] And how often would this violence occur.
[43:00] Um i want to say once a month to once every three months so it was fairly rare, but it was often enough that i was quite i was quite aware that my father was capable of having a temper and.
[43:19] Was he a sort of yellow or screamer uh as well did he call names as well.
[43:24] Yes he absolutely did um.
[43:27] What would you hear.
[43:27] I don't recall i don't recall him calling me any names or my siblings any names he would direct names at my mother though he would he would call her things like in spanish um the hypocrite um fucking bitch um this is mostly when they were arguing about religion and then they would they would both scream at each other and and hurl things kind of on that level at each other and.
[43:55] What would they be arguing about with regards to religion.
[44:00] Well my father always felt that religion was a money grab and they existed just to bleep people dry and there's probably some of that stuff going on there's a lot of prosperity gospel, which for those who don't know what that is is it's a theology where if you give a church a church a bunch of money then god will make you prosperous in return kind of like a tit-for-tat thing so like.
[44:28] A ponzi yeah okay.
[44:29] Yeah yeah so my my mom would i mean spiritual ponzi right.
[44:36] That the money just magically shows up the more you give right okay got it.
[44:39] Yeah yeah and also my mom wanted my dad to go to church with us she wanted him to be a spiritual leader and he wasn't that It just wasn't his thing.
[44:50] Well, he was an atheist, was he?
[44:54] He wasn't a strong atheist in that he professed to be an atheist, but he certainly did not live like a Christian.
[44:59] Well, if he said organized religion is a money grab, he certainly wasn't religious, right?
[45:05] Yeah, that's fair to say that he wasn't religious.
[45:08] So that's interesting. So your mother chose to marry, well, do you know if he changed his view on religion, maybe after he got married?
[45:17] No, absolutely not.
[45:18] So she married somebody who was an agnostic let's just say agnostic or whatever right or a weak atheist so your mother married someone who was an agnostic and then was really upset with him for not being religious yeah.
[45:33] She she became religious a year into their marriage i don't know the full circumstances as to why she became religious or what what happened there.
[45:41] Oh so she changed.
[45:44] Did you say he changed.
[45:46] No she your mother changed she.
[45:48] Did yes she changed that's right.
[45:49] Okay, so she said she wasn't religious to your knowledge and then she became religious after she got married.
[45:59] She grew up catholic but wasn't as religious as she was um so she had religion in her history, in her background, and had an experience where she left Catholicism and, had a revival experience or something like that a year.
[46:19] Sorry, I don't know what a revival experience is. More fundamentalist?
[46:24] More fundamentalist, yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
[46:27] What's your cultural background?
[46:29] My mother is Puerto Rican and my father is from the Dominican Republic.
[46:33] Okay, got it, got it. Okay, so she had, she left the church, the Catholic church, and then she became fundamentalist, right? Like hellfire, brimstone, end times, you know, the, if the car is empty, it's because of the rapture kind of stuff, right?
[46:50] Yeah. Yeah, the whole nine. Yeah.
[46:56] And then they struggled to make it work. Your father remained skeptical and your mother, I assume, stayed or got maybe even more fundamentalist. Is that right?
[47:04] That's right. She doubled down.
[47:05] And what were they fight about in detail?
[47:11] So my father was, besides the religion, and I guess focusing on that for a moment, like I said, she wanted him to go to church. She wanted him to be a spiritual leader in the family, in the household. he wasn't so she resented him for that and she'd poke and prod and push and you know demand that he that he do that so all of that was one huge area that they would fight another was that my father is a philanderer he's a womanizer uh he's been he's been that for us wait a puerto rican guy who's.
[47:49] A philanderer hang.
[47:50] On let me just actually he's the i gotta pick myself he's puerto rican my mother's puerto rican you might have so my father is right yeah okay which is not any better yeah i mean reputation six of one half dozen.
[48:01] The other okay i'm.
[48:01] Taking myself.
[48:02] Off the floor here with stereotype confirmation okay go.
[48:05] Ahead yeah he would brag that he had like you know when he was in college he'd have like a girlfriend in one dorm room and another girlfriend in the other room, um so my mother would find obvious evidence of him cheating on her and he would deny it and they would fight about it loudly, i always thought like dad uh how do you you know once she actually found a card that some other woman had written him a love letter basically and he denied it existed kind of like that shaggy song you know it wasn't me that's that's basically what he would do.
[48:56] And, um, so they were married for how long you said they got divorced 10 years ago.
[49:02] Yeah. So they were married for about 35 years.
[49:05] And do you know what caused the divorce?
[49:08] A lot of things. I mean, I should say there was a lot happening during that time. Um, their fights would get more and more loud and verbally abusive. You know, police would be called things like that. And my father, I think, I think things just broke between them in that my mother finally got up the gumption to leave, leave him to leave the house. and um i was living in a different place from they were and i offered like hey mom get out of there come over here and i i don't want to make it sound like i instigated their divorce because it had been a long time coming but i certainly felt happy that they were apart now and they had space from each other and.
[50:12] Your relationship with your parents now.
[50:15] With my father it's pretty much non-existent um i don't talk to him and i where where we stand is i wrote him an email basically saying you know there's a b c d e things that i expect you to, talk about with me or take responsibility for and he refuses to do that and we can get into what those things are. With my mother, I talk to her fairly regularly. She's mellowed out a lot in her religious fervor and we have enough in common that, from a religious standpoint that I can talk to her and I've I've expressed to both of them, confronted both of them on much of what I'm sharing with you now, my mother was apologetic she felt sorrowful that we went through all of that as kids and sorrowful she caused a lot of it, she did i mean i can't punch someone and say i'm so.
[51:29] Sorry you got punched like i wasn't doing it.
[51:32] Well like for example i i told her about my experiences as a young man young kid going to church being dragged to church by her and i told her how i felt about all that she said hey i'm sorry that i'm sorry that you that i put you through that i'm sorry that you did that i did that to you and a lot of times as i'm saying that though that was a while ago that was probably seven or eight years ago that i had that conversation with her and now i'm saying this out loud i'm questioning whether or not i confronted her fully i certainly confronted my father fully i found that easier to do, and I'm not surprised I'm not surprised about honestly I'm feeling a lot of resistance talking, negatively about my mother and I've listened to a lot of these calls and I know how this goes and I'm kind of surprised she said she was going to hell imminently.
[52:35] And you wouldn't make it to grade 8 that's terrifying, screamed at you "'Frightened you? "'Stayed with a philandering violent man? "'Kept you in his orbit? "'Chose him?'.
[52:53] You know, pretty recently I confronted her on that. I'm like, why did you choose my father? And he said, well, he was a good man. And I was like, what? That doesn't make any sense because of A, B, C, D, E. And she got pretty upset at me for bringing that up.
[53:20] Sorry i thought there was more um was your father very good looking i mean how was he such a philanderer.
[53:27] He had game as people would say um gosh i kind of wish i had some of that you probably don't, wish i could get trashy.
[53:41] Women to sleep with me you probably.
[53:42] Don't especially these days oh tell me about it uh okay so your father.
[53:48] Wasn't was he good looking and charismatic or just more charismatic.
[53:54] I think he was more charismatic and very persistent that's why that's how he broke my mom down as far as i understood the story you know he he pursued her for for probably six months, and she kept turning them down kept turning them down kept turning them down and eventually she agreed to go out with them and they were they were a thing it kind of blows my mind that, that works as a method to get a woman okay.
[54:21] And your last girlfriend what did she think of your family.
[54:26] That's a good question um so she spent the total of probably two weeks so two week-long trips, over um one with a year in between and and sorry she got along on a surface level, um she's scandinavian from the midwest okay.
[54:51] So she's a a white girl and she was going to the sort of puerto rican and uh dominican households right.
[54:58] Yeah but she spent more time in my brother's house um than with and she didn't she has never met my father or spoken to my father because i i wouldn't allow it i pretty much cut him out of my personal life at that point, she met my mother her and my mother got along, as Christians and as women there's kind of two groups in common and she, There wasn't any drama. It kind of felt like, oh, this is my girlfriend. Oh, yeah, this is my brother. Let's go do fun touristy things since we're on vacation. And we talk politics a bit. She's conservative, as am I, and my brother's not so much. So there's a few interesting conversations. Never anything where we debate aggressively or anything like that. But all in all, she got along with my family and never complained about them, which I know isn't a very high bar.
[56:12] Okay. All right. Okay. So I think I've got some good background information other than if you could tell me a little bit about your sexist marriage.
[56:22] Oh boy yeah so i met uh my ex-wife in high school that was pure pure physical attraction i mean i was 18 years old senior in high school and immediately um i was just blown away that a girl liked me back because up until that point you know i'd had several crushes nothing was reciprocated and really struggled, so why.
[56:52] Would you so down on your attractiveness yeah.
[56:59] That's a good question. I think I just always assume that girls don't like me. On some level.
[57:07] Yes, I understand what the definition of down on your attractiveness is, but why?
[57:14] I'm really struggling with that. Why? I think I wasn't very direct with girls when I was in school. i'd have crushes from a distance and then my feelings would just get to the point where i couldn't stand it anymore and i'd write some girl a love letter or something and then it wouldn't be received well so i took that as evidence of girls don't like me and sure maybe that i mean looking back now what sort of girls.
[57:53] Were you attracted to.
[57:54] The cute girl in my class i i can't really think or the cute girl on the bus i mean it was all looks based for sure i i don't remember like at that age liking anybody for anything beyond that.
[58:07] Well your parents only loved each other for reasons of sexual attraction i assume or they were only with each other because they didn't seem to like each other that much as people right.
[58:15] Yeah that's fair to say lust.
[58:19] Is uh lust is the basis and you hadn't seen any value that men and women could provide to each other from a moral standpoint. They just had sex and they fucked and they fought, right? So what are you supposed to do except follow sexual affection? Because you didn't have any examples of quality of character or personality, right?
[58:43] Yep. God, that hurts to say.
[58:46] I mean, my mother was very pretty and slender and charismatic. And guys chased after her, even though she had a kind of a horror show of her personality. it's just taught me a lot about a lot of men right and you know some decent quality men too but just looks looks looks right it's a it's a cliff edge right that many a man falls off.
[59:15] Yeah and i'm struggling with that now, because it's hard to i don't know like it's hard for me to say agree to date a woman that's overweight um a lot of it is i was not attracted to her.
[59:34] Yeah but the overweight thing is different the overweight thing is a character flaw, as a whole so that that's a different matter um, i mean for a lot of men it's like well if i stick my dick in her all of these rainbow virtues are going to come out, right if i if i'm attracted enough i can i can just make do with what comes right And look, I'm not saying I've been above this my whole life. I'm not, you know, I'm not like Zen-like above, oh, as if this ever happened to me. So I get that. I sympathize with all of that. But, I mean, certainly in your 40s, right? You've got to look for qualities of character, especially if you've been listening to me for 10 years, right?
[1:00:21] Absolutely.
[1:00:23] So the last girl... sorry sorry tell me a little bit more how long were you married and how long was it sex.
[1:00:30] Oh well it was sexless from the very beginning all the way through until the very end and it spanned about 15 years um uh.
[1:00:40] Sorry so i guess you had no sex before marriage because you're christian and then after marriage she said i'm not having sex after marriage either.
[1:00:46] Well i wasn't christian i okay so i grew up christian but i went through a crisis of faith um when i was in high school around the same time and i abandoned christianity completely her family was catholic but she wasn't particularly christian either our marriage our relationship was sexless partially because i had pretty serious porn addiction that started when i was in my pre-teen years, and she was sexually repressed by her family a lot of emotional abuse in her family, and history and when we got married we just did not after after being in a relationship, where we didn't have sex for seven or eight years you don't just automatically just have, know what to do or um i was i was i was terrified and i as i say that um it's pretty heartbreaking to say that and sorry.
[1:01:55] I don't know what you mean terrified of what.
[1:02:00] I was scared. So we got married under very, very stressful circumstances.
[1:02:08] And what was this?
[1:02:11] Well, so her mother controlled her life completely, even in her mid-20s, to the point where she was afraid to—we were going to go on a cruise with some friends. and she knew her mother wouldn't let her go which i know sounds ridiculous for a 25 year old woman to be in that situation but that's what it was and i was i was a married woman right no we weren't married at this point i'm sorry i'm.
[1:02:41] Sorry you met in high school but you weren't married.
[1:02:43] Yeah 25 this was right before we got married okay um so i was at my wits end and And in my mind, I was just setting an ultimatum. Like, I'm going to invite her on this cruise, and if she goes with me, great. If she doesn't, then we're breaking up. And I asked her, we're going to go on this cruise. And she said, nope. My mom was not going to let me go, and I'm not going to ask her, basically, is what she said. And I made her go. Instead of breaking up with her, I said, no, we're going on this cruise. so i drove her to her house and got her stuff and then drove to and sorry because.
[1:03:25] She wasn't married yet and she was concerned you guys might fool around.
[1:03:28] No she was she was afraid of her mother no.
[1:03:32] No but what was her mother afraid of.
[1:03:34] Well they're nicaraguan um they were at the top of the food chain during the uh you know the 70s and when the communists took over there she, lost everything and saw horrible things you know people getting executed and things like that um so she was a hateful person um that was my experience of her she was always angry um she was extremely very very quick to launch into tirades and insults, like if you fucking asshole you're an idiot you're a slut she called her a slut her daughter a slut to my face when we were together once yeah.
[1:04:15] But i mean.
[1:04:16] This was similar.
[1:04:17] To your parents marriage so this is all just familiar stuff right.
[1:04:22] Yeah with the exception that her husband was a complete and total pushover like he never said a word whereas my father and my mother their fighting was more even-handed, so in this family her she was basically a uh a tyrant, okay so then you got.
[1:04:44] Married and then there was no sex.
[1:04:46] There was no sex right until until years later when she developed my ex-wife developed a crush on her boss, and my reaction was something like wow you have a sex drive that's amazing instead of being furious, um so we had agreed to have an open marriage although i stipulated that that guy was off limits and we were starting to have sex sorry.
[1:05:19] That's quite a leap here right.
[1:05:20] Yeah i'm sorry she's christian.
[1:05:23] And she says i want a non-monogamous marriage so i can have sex with other men.
[1:05:28] No i'm sorry my ex-wife was not i mean she was catholic on paper but she was not a christian she never went to church she never prayed okay she didn't live as a christian so she.
[1:05:37] Wasn't a christian and you what was your belief at the faith at that time.
[1:05:41] Um i was an atheist for most of my 20s until, this situation with my ex-wife um i just i went into meditation and became a buddhist studied zen buddhism for about 10 years yeah.
[1:05:57] I can understand that living in a sexless marriage might make you want to master your desires.
[1:06:02] Huh you know I never got that connection until you just said that like how how did I get that to help it seems so obvious now, and that's that's that's kind of the thing in my life is me just, dealing with it with things.
[1:06:25] Okay hang on hang on so so she develops a crush on her boss and then she wants she wants to open up the marriage is that right.
[1:06:30] Yeah she wants to fuck this guy.
[1:06:33] Right and and you when you say sex is marriage you're talking about like from the wedding day onwards nothing or just very rare nothing.
[1:06:40] Like zero sex.
[1:06:42] For 15 years we.
[1:06:43] For 15 years yeah.
[1:06:44] And was it that she was aware of your viewing of pornography is that was that her excuse or was there something else.
[1:06:50] Our communication was terrible um all my sexual energy was going into pornography, so i didn't pursue her and we didn't talk about it, which i know.
[1:07:07] Sounds crazy that your pornography was a barrier to the sex life and that's just because you didn't pursue her or was she aware of your usage i.
[1:07:16] Don't think she was aware of the extent of my usage because i was i was i was beaten off to porn probably every day and i go through great pains to hide it and she never really caught me.
[1:07:28] But why why did you why did you stay married it's a good question i mean did you you didn't want kids because you know as far as i understand it that's the traditional way to do it right right.
[1:07:42] Right i was passive in my life i had no i had no sense that i had any agency that i could choose to divorce my wife or to leave her it didn't.
[1:07:54] Well you would get it annulled right if you got married in the church right if there's no sexual activity you can just get the marriage annulled and then it's like it's not even a divorce it's like it never was right.
[1:08:03] Right but that didn't even cross my mind and i will say that for probably the last five to eight years, probably the last five years of our relationship, so maybe a year or two after we got married, I felt like, what the fuck have I done? This is, I'm stuck. I'm stuck in this marriage. There's no way out. I made these vows. And this has been a pattern for me where I stay in a relationship way too long.
[1:08:41] Well, I don't understand this relationship. It's not a marriage. I don't even know what to call it. Marriage is about sex. That's why marriage exists. Because people have sex and sex makes babies. And babies need a two-parent committed household. So marriage is about sex. It's about the regulation and focus and discipline of sexuality.
[1:09:02] Right.
[1:09:03] So I don't know what to call this. This is like saying I have a job when you don't get paid. You don't have a job. You got something, but it ain't a job.
[1:09:12] Right.
[1:09:14] Did anyone else know? Did you talk about it with your brothers or your parents or friends? Or did you get any feedback or advice or what?
[1:09:21] I had a ton of shame about it. Could you imagine? You're married to somebody, you know, not having sex with them. So I never told anybody out of shame. I just pushed it down and trudged on with my life until I couldn't.
[1:09:39] So you said the last five years was like you were more conscious and aware of how bad it was.
[1:09:45] That's right yeah so what happened then, well talking to people um seeing conflicts with my ex-wife and my friends because we were long distance um when i was in college and i had a whole group i had a whole social circle that didn't meet her until until we were married and then they were like who the fuck is this we thought you made this person up and um wait what there was my friends when they finally met my ex-wife, they they were first of all floored that she actually existed because they hadn't they hadn't met her and they were joking they.
[1:10:24] Didn't think that you'd made up an entire marriage that you were.
[1:10:26] Lying did they, I don't, well, that's a good point. They were mostly joking.
[1:10:33] That's a pretty bad set of friends if they think that you're a pathological liar and still want to be friends with you.
[1:10:42] Well, sorry for putting it that way. That might have been misleading.
[1:10:45] No, I just want to make sure I understand. I don't mind if you were using hyperbole. I just want to know if it was.
[1:10:50] Yeah, it was hyperbole, for sure. It's like a joke.
[1:10:53] Like, you know, I have a girlfriend in California, you know, when you're a kid or something. Okay, so they were just kind of joking about it. okay go ahead.
[1:11:00] Yeah they must have thought it was strange that um, sorry let me collect my thoughts here um well.
[1:11:08] No that's fine so.
[1:11:09] You started.
[1:11:11] To talk about your sexist marriage and people is that right with people.
[1:11:16] Um i wasn't that direct with people about it but i was aware that our marriage was dysfunctional, and wanted better for myself and this is about the time that i picked up the meditation and was interested in self-knowledge and personal growth and those things, and we were growing apart because our whole relationship growing apart, that's fair but if anything our relationship was based on her needing me to escape her family whether she actually did or not i don't know um if she what would have happened to her if i wasn't the picture but i certainly needed the validation of being her savior at the time and as our marriage progressed she became more and more independent so that basis of why we were together well.
[1:12:11] These had just.
[1:12:12] Had two.
[1:12:12] Roommates masturbating in separate rooms right so.
[1:12:15] I don't.
[1:12:15] Even know what to call that.
[1:12:20] Shared history trauma anyway.
[1:12:23] Yeah so what happened i want to make sure we get to the sort of central point of of your question so what happened at the end of that marriage.
[1:12:30] Um so she i agreed that we should we can have an open marriage but that guy was off limits, um she ended up drunk at this guy's house late at night and he had sex with him this guy also has a reputation with the boss okay and he had a reputation for getting women drunk and sleeping with them so there's he's.
[1:12:52] A player like your.
[1:12:53] Daddy yeah yeah but for me um i found somebody and was talking to them and my ex-wife was really jealous and wanted me to not talk to this person, so i was like fuck this i'm out you know i'm this i can't stand this anymore and honestly at this point i had reached a level of complete exhaustion emotionally like i hate to say it but i didn't care whether she lived or died um which is a horrible thing to say i can't believe oh let's not.
[1:13:30] Judge it don't worry about it i don't care.
[1:13:32] About the.
[1:13:33] Judgment let's just go on with the honesty.
[1:13:34] Okay that's how i felt i didn't care if she lived or died and i'm just like i'm done i'm out so i initiated a divorce and it was a really painful process i mean it always is divorce sucks but um she didn't she didn't want to go through with it so i had to do all the all the legwork and track her down she went out to my phone calls i had to have i had to have her served, um a whole nine and we didn't have any kids or property so there was nothing to fight over she's pretty sure you didn't have any kids otherwise yeah that's fair.
[1:14:16] Okay. And how long ago did you get divorced? Or was it finalized?
[1:14:21] That was 2016, so nine years ago.
[1:14:24] Okay. And then you had a couple of relationships and then the two and a half year one, or was the two and a half year one the only major one?
[1:14:33] The two and a half year, that was the only major one.
[1:14:36] And how many other women did you date or sleep with since 2016?
[1:14:42] Well i met a woman at basically a music festival and slept with her at that point i had like no i basically i had not masturbated in like four months doing the nofap thing and um, it was horny enough to just go nuts right so so i was not particularly attracted to this woman but she was there and it was really clear that that was not going to be a relationship long term um i dated someone a few years after that for about a month i actually really liked this gal but this is during the period when i was still going through my divorce process and when i told her i wasn't divorced yet she dumped me on the spot and that was after only about a month, yeah i mean that's wise.
[1:15:37] Right i mean.
[1:15:37] Yeah there's no point getting.
[1:15:39] People going through divorce they're just a wreck right.
[1:15:41] Right right okay and you got.
[1:15:47] Involved with the woman for two and a half years and now your basic question is you said you're not going to give up on love so i'm not sure i can advise you with regards to that but what's the central issue that i could give you feedback on.
[1:16:02] Well i feel like i'm doing something wrong in some sense and i've been dating sucks these days everyone says that everyone talks about it but i i don't want to give myself that excuse, so And in a sense.
[1:16:21] I mean, what is it that you want out of dating or romance?
[1:16:28] I want a wife. I want a family. I want to have kids.
[1:16:31] You want to have kids?
[1:16:31] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:16:33] I feel that's looking away from me. Okay, so you're going to have to go at least 10 years younger, right?
[1:16:35] Right.
[1:16:36] Okay. And do you make good money?
[1:16:40] Yeah, I do. And, you know, over six figures.
[1:16:44] Okay. And how's your asset base or your asset situation? Okay.
[1:16:50] Not the best. I, you know, I make good money, but.
[1:16:55] Well, where's it honestly.
[1:16:58] For the past, I mean, after my, I wasn't, I've been making good money fairly recently in my life. So I haven't had a lot of time to save.
[1:17:07] Okay. But you didn't have kids. So where's all your money gone? I'm just asking you the questions that a sensible woman would ask, right?
[1:17:17] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:17:25] I've uh did your wife work did she contribute did you have to pay for her too or did she work.
[1:17:30] She did she did not work i paid for her.
[1:17:33] Oh my god are you kidding me you paid through the fucking nose for a sexless marriage.
[1:17:42] It's depressing isn't it.
[1:17:43] My god that must have cost you half a mil six hundred seven hundred thousand dollars more yeah yeah and uh bro i.
[1:17:56] Got fucked over by my father financially too um.
[1:18:00] No long.
[1:18:01] Long story short um i bought a house in 2008 which you can just by that you probably know where this is going it wasn't my house it was for my family and.
[1:18:13] I mean your parents my parents right you bought a house for your parents in 2008 because.
[1:18:19] Their credit was 2006 i'm sorry.
[1:18:22] So you're paying for a wife who won't have sex with you and you're buying a house for your parents who abused you that's right okay and.
[1:18:30] It ended in foreclosure and bankruptcy bankruptcy my bankruptcy.
[1:18:36] Okay right but sorry i thought that you were only buying the house because your parents credit rating was bad did they not have enough money to pay the mortgage.
[1:18:46] Well they did for a while until the interest rates started to go up i mean it was the worst possible situation as far as a mortgage goes so.
[1:18:54] Not sustainable right mortgage and it kicked in after a year or two or three, exactly okay yeah i mean that's why you should go with fixed rate my personal opinion not financial advice but my absolutely yeah you need you need predictability in financial matters okay all right so what did your wife do all day.
[1:19:16] Nothing i mean she went to school um.
[1:19:19] Oh she wasn't sorry student you paid you paid for her bills her food her health insurance her rent and you also paid for her to go to school, i did wow man you're a sugar daddy with no sugar no.
[1:19:35] Sugar man just saying this out loud is really it's.
[1:19:40] I mean your father has a lot of shame right now Yeah, I mean, this is insane. I've never heard of anything like this, honestly, and I've been doing this a long time, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but this is incomprehensible.
[1:19:57] Yeah, I'm feeling a lot of shame about this.
[1:19:59] No, no, it's not a matter of feeling shame. I just, these are the questions that you've got to have an answer to, otherwise you can't get a quality woman, because a quality woman is going to grill the living shit out of you, brother. because she's going to say wait you're 42 you're an attractive guy you make six figures plus how the hell are you still single and i don't know man you're going to have to find a way to explain all of this because this red flag's all over the place right.
[1:20:30] Yeah, yeah and it's hard for me to hear right now because i feel like i have got a healthy sense of self-esteem Like, I'll ride my motorcycle.
[1:20:43] I'm not saying you shouldn't have a healthy sense of self-esteem, but you got to understand how these absolute disasters occurred. How did you date a woman who didn't even really want to get married when you want to get married? How did you pay for a woman through the nose for 15 years? And then she wanted to open up the marriage and fucked her boss who you specifically begged her not to or told her not to. like that's my my question and if you were a younger man i'd you know do more childhood and sympathy but you've been listening to philosophy for a decade and you're in your 40s which means you don't get the excuse of childhood and youth right absolutely so what you know with.
[1:21:30] My ex-wife i really think it was my porn addiction i just had no drive i was.
[1:21:35] No no no come on man come on, do you think that if she was having sex with you every day you'd have a porn addiction.
[1:21:48] No i wouldn't.
[1:21:49] Right so it's cause and effect right.
[1:21:53] Right but it's also in my mind a spiral uh or maybe not a spiral um.
[1:22:01] Like a vicious circle right a.
[1:22:04] Vicious circle thank you yes right.
[1:22:05] Right right okay but But, look, the porn addiction is not great. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. But if she's not having sex with you and you're not getting divorced, like, men need orgasms for health. Like, you can go look this stuff up, right? Look at the prostate health and so on. Men need orgasms for health. They're not optional.
[1:22:34] Wow. Yeah, when you put it that way, and I know this, um i have been holding myself back i mean i don't do i don't do porn anymore right but, i feel like if i don't masturbate and i go out in the world then i've got more masculine energy and i've got more drive to pursue women and it's helpful from a certain standpoint but.
[1:23:02] Yeah listen i'm not trying to give you advice on health or or what you do with any of this kind of stuff i'm just saying that it's not just the porn addiction.
[1:23:15] No i you're right i can see that because of the all the emotional abuse i mean all that was there and our lack of communication.
[1:23:23] Sorry what was the emotional abuse from.
[1:23:26] Her from her family.
[1:23:28] Wait from her or from her family.
[1:23:30] From her family.
[1:23:31] Okay but not from her.
[1:23:33] No not from her.
[1:23:34] Okay got it okay so you need to be able to answer these questions, you know why did you get divorced oh it was a sexless marriage that became an open marriage and then she had sex with the guy i told her not to and she agreed not to right okay, and then the moment that i found someone that i was attracted to she wanted to shut down the open marriage is that right that's right but she wanted to stay married and have you continue to pay the bills right okay the h&m is walking away at least keep a good house nope did she cook did she clean did she take care of your bills and your finances and did she do any of that.
[1:24:23] Not really i'm sorry i know that's not very.
[1:24:26] No that's fine i mean i'm sure she made toast or something okay yeah all right so why should you get love, Like you want it, sure, like you want it, but why should you get it?
[1:24:48] Why should I get love? Because I offer love in return.
[1:24:56] Okay.
[1:24:57] I'm affectionate.
[1:24:57] Hang on, hang on. What evidence would a skeptical woman, and a woman has a right to be skeptical if you're single in your 40s, right?
[1:25:05] Absolutely.
[1:25:05] What empirical evidence would a skeptical woman have that you offer love? i mean you were not in a sexless marriage but a loveless marriage in fact you were being exploited, horribly so you didn't offer love in a 15-year marriage right and then you opened up the marriage to appease your wife right wait.
[1:25:31] When you say i didn't offer love what do.
[1:25:33] You mean by that well she didn't you didn't love your wife how could you.
[1:25:41] Because I allowed this to happen?
[1:25:43] Well, in a sexist marriage, you yourself said you didn't communicate about anything. She gets attracted to another guy and immediately wants to sleep with him. You let it happen. She doesn't clean house. She takes all your money. This is not a woman that's worthy of respect and love.
[1:25:59] Absolutely.
[1:26:00] I'm not trying to color between outside of the lines here. I'm just going off what you said. You didn't love her. What's to love? what nobility and virtue and passion and strength was there to love, nothing nothing it's like a something hanging off your jugular, yeah wrong kind of sucking bro yeah absolutely okay so there's no love in your marriage, And then you date for two and a half years a girl or woman who's not really sure she wants to get married. And then the moment you start pushing marriage, she bails.
[1:26:46] That's fair to say. Yep. So as soon as I have needs.
[1:26:50] Right. So now, of course, you grew up not knowing how, like you grew up seeing people who didn't have a fucking clue how to express their needs without screaming at each other. so I've noticed that when you veer into need territory you get aggressive, when you started talking about talking to your ex-girlfriend about marriage like what are we fucking doing so I don't think you know very well how to express your needs without being aggressive, because how could you I mean your parents didn't know how to express their needs without being aggressive, did they?
[1:27:28] No, they didn't.
[1:27:30] Now, earlier at the beginning of the conversation, I sort of quite, and I suspected this, so I quite deliberately, but honestly, said, I don't know what you're talking about, right?
[1:27:38] Mm-hmm.
[1:27:39] Like when you were talking about the religion and this and that, I didn't know what you were talking about. And so I expressed my needs for you to treat me as if I didn't know what you were talking about because I didn't, but I don't think I did it in an aggressive fashion. I just said, here's what I need to make this an effective conversation, right?
[1:27:53] Right.
[1:27:55] So can you think of a time in your life where you've expressed a deep and vulnerable need without feeling aggressive? I mean, I know that there's a lot of times when you silenced it, say for 15 years, but was there a time when you were able to express a deep legitimate need or a vulnerable need, all needs are really vulnerable, without getting aggressive?
[1:28:19] I don't think i was aggressive with my ex-girlfriend the two and a half year one when i was.
[1:28:25] Well you're pursuing marriage you expressed the conversation to me in a very aggressive manner do you remember you said what the fuck are we doing here yeah this was your characterization of the conversation and i said well i hope you weren't that aggressive do you remember.
[1:28:39] Yes i do remember that that came up in the conversation but i feel like that came up because of the anger i'm feeling now post relationship.
[1:28:47] No i get it but bro So, you understand it's the fight or flight mechanism. Every deep fear is associated with significant anger. You ever see these scare videos? Someone jumps out at someone behind the door and they just punch them in the face? Or you scare people and they get angry?
[1:29:08] Yeah.
[1:29:10] So, you said that you were terrified of expressing needs with your ex-girlfriend because you're terrified that she was going to reject you, right? And leave you. Right. Right. So all of that fear is also associated with anger because people who frighten us also make us angry. So then when you finally, after two and a half years, really begin to express, we could say a little less than two and a half years, 18 months or two years or whatever, when you finally begin to express, like, I really want to get married. Right? So how do you overcome that fear? With anger. Yeah. So if we're being chased, let's say, by, I don't know, a dog, right? And then we're finally cornered, we turn around, and when we run, we're frightened. If we're finally cornered, we turn around, and what are we? Angry.
[1:30:07] Angry.
[1:30:08] Yeah. So it shifts from flight to fight, right? And even cornered rats will attack and bite things 20 times or 100 times their size, right?
[1:30:17] Right.
[1:30:19] So you pushing down all of this terror and this fear emerges as what when you finally want to make your needs known?
[1:30:26] Anger.
[1:30:27] Right. And I'm sure, even if you were calm-voiced, I'm sure that your ex-girlfriend sensed some of this anger, and that may be partly why she bailed.
[1:30:39] Right, because she would see a part of me that she's like, well, what is that? I've never seen that before. She told me.
[1:30:46] I don't believe there are any secrets in relationships. I think she knew that you were terrified and gave her all the power, just as you gave all the power to your ex-wife. So you were terrified of her. And I guarantee you she knew that deep down. Women are experts at reading men. Men are pretty good at reading women, but women are even better. So she knew all of that fear. she also knew exactly how much in lust with her you were you know all of that and rather than having an honest conversation and saying you know really i don't want to i really don't want to exploit you like i know that you're really scared of me i know i feel like i have all the power and that's too much power it's not healthy i don't want to have this this kind of power over you this is not this doesn't feel good right i mean you've heard me of course in these call-in shows a million times saying, look, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I don't tell people what to do. I don't want to have that kind of power, that kind of stuff, right? Because I vehemently reject having power over other people because it's an illusion. And I can only have power over the worst and most subjugated aspects of themselves, which is a refooing if it was an abusive relationship, right?
[1:32:01] Yeah. You know, I get that. I don't want to have any power or controller or anyone either i find that.
[1:32:07] No but you want that you you go after women who have power over you either they take that power you generally you give that power right right so that's the problem that your parents relationship was only a manifestation of power of escalation of abuse of aggression, of screaming, and your mother's relationship with you was power, you're going to fucking hell on Tuesday. Power. Not reason, not love, not exhortation, not plea, not appeal. Power. And the horrible words that your father called your mother and him throwing things around once a month and so on, there's power, intimidation, escalation. How do you get your way? well you either surrender or you dominate that's it it's all you get.
[1:33:10] It's really hard to look in this mirror.
[1:33:14] So you don't want power over other people but because of, the culture and the family situation that you grew up in if you're not going to rule what's the only other alternative to be ruled to be ruled yeah yeah either dominance or submission That's all you're going to get. and so if your girlfriend is dominating you through the fear that she knows about, she knows about that fear, and she's more than happy to have it keep going, because that way she gets her way, and then, then what happens? Well, then what happens is, you finally lose your temper, enough of being pushed around. now it's my turn to push, now it's my turn to get my way and instead of me folding for you fold for me, but once you set up that dynamic where you're the one who folds, you can't get other people to fold for you you can't just rewrite that and now you're in charge now you're the bossy one now you're the dominant one it doesn't work that way.
[1:34:37] Because the whole relationship had been set up on the opposite.
[1:34:40] Yeah. And you keep trying, like, things keep changing. Like, look at these relationships. You want a pattern? Okay, here's a pattern. Look at these relationships. Your parents get married as agnostics or atheists or whatever the hell they were, and then your mother goes full, not just religious, but fundamentalist, right?
[1:35:01] Right.
[1:35:02] That's rewriting the whole relationship. You get married to a woman. with the full and healthy expectation of a robust and married sex life, right? And she writes the whole contract and says, nope, nope, nope, right? And then you date a woman who doesn't want to get married. And you try to rewrite that contract at the end and it all goes to hell. So look at all the rewriting of the contract that goes on in these relationships. You keep trying to change things from the inside. You keep taking these relationships and trying to rewrite them after you've already accepted them. And sorry, the last thing is that in your marriage with your ex-wife, she rewrites the relationship so you can't have sex, right? and then you both rewrite the relationship to turn it from monogamous into an open marriage, these constant rewriting of contracts is what you saw in your parents marriage, i mean your father also tried to read well i guess successfully i don't he didn't rewrite the contract but he acted as if the contract was null and void because he married your mother, promising what? Monogamy.
[1:36:26] Monogamy, yeah.
[1:36:27] Right. And then, he fucked everything that moved with a hole and a breathing tube, right?
[1:36:34] Right. Didn't even care about it.
[1:36:38] Yeah, so your father rewrote the contract unilaterally. Your mother rewrote the contract through religion unilaterally. Your wife rewrote the contract, no sex, unilaterally. And then, to appease her i mean she basically turned it into an open marriage that wasn't something that was on your mind was it.
[1:36:58] I'm sorry could you repeat that.
[1:37:03] Your ex-wife were you both i mean did you want an open marriage did you bring that no no you know so she rewrote that again she rewrote it to say she rewrote the marriage to say no sex and then she rewrote the marriage again to say now it's an open marriage, so you keep getting into these relationships because this is what your parents relationship was modeled on where people make promises and then just do whatever the hell they want maybe we'll get married says your ex-girlfriend no we really we got to decide this okay i'm out you're trying to rewrite the marriage contract you're trying to rewrite the relationship from the inside after you're already invested and i'm saying you'll choose Choose people based on their virtues and start trying to change people from within the relationship. Doesn't work.
[1:37:56] Yep.
[1:37:57] It doesn't. Did it work for your parents?
[1:38:00] Nope. Yeah, sure as hell hasn't worked for me either.
[1:38:03] It doesn't work with your wife. It doesn't work with your ex-girlfriend. It doesn't like, here's the example. Why did you wait a month to tell your last girlfriend before this one that you were going through a divorce?
[1:38:20] Because I was scared she would dump me.
[1:38:22] Right. So, you dated her under false pretenses, which is why she dumped your sorry ass when you told her the truth.
[1:38:33] Yep.
[1:38:35] And you also dated your last girlfriend under false pretenses. I want to get married. I would like to get married. And if you don't want to get married and you're not certain about that, We ain't dating. You're like, well, it's okay. I'll date you if you don't really want to get married. We'll just, I'll just date you. Right?
[1:38:59] Because I'll change your mind later from the inside.
[1:39:01] Well, I'll rewrite the contract. Don't worry about it. But you can't rewrite the contract. The moment you say to someone, I love you, we're together, we're boyfriend, we're girlfriend, you're saying, I accept you for who you are. Right?
[1:39:16] Right.
[1:39:17] You can't rewrite the contract from within. So what is it? If you take a job for $100,000 and then you say, after working there for a couple of months, I want half a million dollars a year, is that reasonable? Will that work?
[1:39:38] Hell no.
[1:39:39] No, of course not. If you go and volunteer at a soup kitchen and then on your second night you say, I want 50 bucks an hour, is that going to work? Nope. No. If you negotiate for a car, you say, I got to pay you $20,000 for the car. And then right at the end, you say, actually, it's only five grand. Haven't you just wasted everyone's time?
[1:40:09] Absolutely.
[1:40:10] Right. Aren't you just wasting everyone's time?
[1:40:14] I'm just floored by this because I'm such a rule follower in most other aspects of my life, you know?
[1:40:19] No, you are following a rule. the rule is I can negotiate this shit later and it fails every time you have a rule it's just a bad one, and your rule is I have to follow rules but other people don't.
[1:40:43] Man what's up with that.
[1:40:46] What's up with what we talked about a lot here but what do you mean yeah.
[1:40:49] I'm sorry um i'm just thinking to myself like hearing you say that out loud like that's obviously unjust.
[1:40:58] It's obviously what unjust what do you mean by that unjust i'm sorry yeah what do you mean by that yeah.
[1:41:05] Yeah like i guess i'm i'm frustrated with myself and wondering.
[1:41:15] You're frustrated with yourself yeah like jesus man i just get i just gave you the fucking golden key to your life and your first response is not relief or happiness but irritation, I just explained your whole life to you, gave you a path forward that's not the same as the last 20 years. And you're like, that's irritating. Maybe this lack of gratitude is why you can't get love. And you made it about you. You could say, Stef, wow, that's really great. I'm not even paying you for this, and this is a great insight. I really, really appreciate that. That's amazing. What a relief. Now I know what the problem is, which is exactly what you called me for. You called me for this, right?
[1:42:04] You're right. I did call you for this. And you're right. It is a good insight. And you're right. It is interesting that I made it about myself in that moment.
[1:42:12] Well, you just made it into a negative experience, right? So, you know, I'm bending my butt backwards trying to help you, right?
[1:42:20] Yes, you are.
[1:42:20] Thank you. No, and listen, I appreciate it. And I appreciate your thanks and all of that. But if you've got a chronic back issue for 20 years and some guy comes along and says, oh, just do this and you'll be fine. And you're like, that's really irritating.
[1:42:39] Yeah, sorry for that.
[1:42:40] No, no, it's nothing to apologize for. I'm just pointing it out that why do you deserve love? Well, you don't deserve love if you lie to people. Right? And if you try to rewrite the contract later on, that's a falsehood.
[1:43:00] Yeah.
[1:43:01] Did you see what I mean?
[1:43:02] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:43:04] Because you're saying this is a fine relationship when there's a huge condition in there.
[1:43:13] Right. And by me going along with it, waiting for it to change while passive aggressively or however, even trying to change it from within, that's... No, it's worse than that.
[1:43:28] Brother. And it's good news that it's worse than that. I'll tell you why it's worse than that. It's worse than that because you lie. And I'm not calling you some big stinky liar. And it's good news that you lie. Because lying is the... fundamental enemy of love right because you can't you can't love and lie now let me tell you what i mean the last girl right the scandinavian right right you were terrified right of.
[1:44:04] Losing her yes.
[1:44:05] For how long were you terrified from the beginning.
[1:44:10] No from when she told me that she never saw herself getting married and i could see the seriousness with which she said that.
[1:44:17] Okay and it was after a year.
[1:44:19] Of being together that was a year after a year of being together.
[1:44:22] Okay sorry i missed that part so at the beginning she said she might want to get married and then yeah and in the beginning that she doesn't want to get married Yes So why the hell did you stick around for another 18 months, She said she told you She told you the truth I don't want to get married, And you stuck around for another 18 months And then you demanded you get married, Bro Come on What are you doing.
[1:44:54] I felt like I couldn't do any better.
[1:44:57] Well, then you just keep dating her and don't get married.
[1:45:01] The problem is that we're Catholic, right? So our relationship, we can't have sex until we get married.
[1:45:08] Well, you had some kind of sex, right?
[1:45:11] We did, but it's not what I wanted. I wanted more.
[1:45:14] I get it.
[1:45:14] And I wanted a family.
[1:45:15] Okay. So then you could do better because with her, you can't have sex and you can't have kids. so what is the you couldn't do better what does that mean.
[1:45:30] That's to be honest feeling getting someone that looked as good as she did and.
[1:45:37] Was as young as she was very catholic no it's not come on just man that's that's trash i'm not saying you're trash i'm just saying that perspective i get that that's total trash she's hot, she's hot, I mean come on you've been into philosophy for 10 years, and you're a catholic to the point where you won't have premarital intercourse, so but she's is that is that a shadow from the porn addiction she just what did she look like a porn star or something and that's all you're attached to these days.
[1:46:14] It's a good point it's a good question.
[1:46:17] Okay well that's something to mull over on your own so she openly told you a year into the relationship we ain't get i don't want to get married okay but then you thought and and so hang on so when you first got together with her were you scared of losing her or were you scared that she wasn't going to uh stick it out.
[1:46:37] Well i wasn't scared at the beginning because i didn't know what would happen i i was definitely.
[1:46:47] Hang on hang on i asked her did you think she was out of your league so to speak at the beginning yeah i did okay so you were scared of losing her because when we date people out of her league we feel anxious right that's right okay so you were scared of losing her at the beginning that's right okay now uh the reason i'm saying about the lying is were you honest with her and say and say listen your looks are the primary thing that i'm attracted to and i'm terrified that you're way more attractive than i am and that you're not going to stick around and i live in fear of you leaving me like every time.
[1:47:30] No i never told her that.
[1:47:31] Right so that's lying because you're in a state you are keeping hidden as a shameful secret so you can't be close, Do you see what I mean?
[1:47:42] Yeah, no, I do.
[1:47:43] I mean, do you know what it is to unpack your heart and be honest and connected with a woman?
[1:47:53] Gosh, I thought I did.
[1:47:56] Well, you knew that you were frightened of her leaving you and you also knew that you never told her. That you withheld and hid your most foundational state of mind with her.
[1:48:11] Well and you know i experienced it at the time as this this vague anxiety anxiety is something that i've dealt with my whole life.
[1:48:18] Okay so then you should know what the hell's going on because you've dealt with it your whole life so you should know what's going on with your anxiety right.
[1:48:25] And i think i've dealt with it in some sense like oh i'm anxious that actually means i'm excited and i push it down.
[1:48:35] Okay and i don't mean you if you push down and deny your own feelings you're responsible for that especially again because you've listened to me mr you know be honest and connected and tell the truth blah blah blah right for 10 years right so so if you choose to push down your emotions and not figure them out then things are going to go haywire right absolutely you know if you've got a toothache and you just take painkillers, your toothache doesn't get better right right can be fatal.
[1:49:07] Right so if i had in that moment hey i feel anxious i don't know why but that's how i feel.
[1:49:13] Well you knew that okay when did you figure out that you were terrified that she was out of your league and she was going to dump you or she might.
[1:49:24] I've kind of struggled with well that's not true i was going to say that all women are out of my league but that's not true because there's some women that i like i'm not dating this person because i feel like i'm out of her league.
[1:49:34] The fat girls yeah exactly you said right yeah.
[1:49:38] But i would walk up to her door um you know to knock to you know because i'm here right to let me into her place and i'm just anxious and i.
[1:49:48] Can't just probably when did you figure out that you were frightened of her leaving you that she was out of your league or too good for you or whatever.
[1:49:57] Man since day one.
[1:49:58] Okay so what are you giving me all this runaround for, see you gotta develop a habit to tell it the truth or you don't get love you earn love through honesty, and until you can be honest you don't get love I mean you'll get lust you'll get attachment you'll get codependence you'll like whatever it is that people pass off as the false federal reserve coinage of pretend love but to get love you gotta be honest Thank you. And honesty would be, I'm in this relationship. Okay, what's the most honest thing you could have said to this woman when she said, I am not certain about getting married at the beginning. I don't know if I want to get married. What's the most honest thing you could say?
[1:50:50] I don't know if it's going to work between us because I sure as hell do.
[1:50:53] That is not honest at all.
[1:50:56] Really?
[1:50:56] No. What do you mean, I don't know? if you want a marriage and kids, and the woman doesn't want that is it going to work?
[1:51:12] No, it's not.
[1:51:13] It's not an I don't know situation.
[1:51:15] Right. It just isn't going to work.
[1:51:17] Yeah.
[1:51:17] We're not going to date.
[1:51:18] Yeah.
[1:51:19] I'll see you later.
[1:51:20] Yeah. I'm like I want to get married and I want to have kids and if it's not with you like you know you're great and love you to death so to speak but no. I'm not, uh, just, it doesn't accord with my values because you, all you did was waste two and a half years in that way. Because if you'd said that at the beginning, you said, oh yes, but, but then, then I won't get to date her. It's like, yeah, but you wouldn't be heartbroken now. Right.
[1:51:45] Right.
[1:51:46] Cause you're not fit to date. You're six months and you're still heartbroken. I'm not criticizing you for that by any means. Right.
[1:51:51] Right.
[1:51:51] But you're heartbroken because you're scarred. You don't know why things keep not working out, which is what I'm working to try and get you to see.
[1:52:00] Yeah.
[1:52:01] Because you don't tell the truth. Now, if you were younger, I'd say, you know, you hide things or whatever. But because you're in your 40s and listen to me for 10 years, you just lie.
[1:52:13] That's fair. You just lie.
[1:52:14] And I'm not calling you some big stinky liar. And it's not like I'm 100% all the time, right? So I say this with, you know, compassion and sympathy and all of that kind of stuff. But I have to call a spade a spade, right? No, I appreciate it. You lie and you want truth and you want love. Sorry, you lie and you want love and you can't get both.
[1:52:36] That's hard to hear, but I resonate with that. You're right. I do lie. I do lie.
[1:52:43] I mean, even when it came to your mother, right? You didn't want to talk negatively about your mother. Who cares what you want? You tell the fucking truth. Who cares how it feels? You just tell the truth. I mean, do you think I had a blast talking about all the controversial shit I was talking about in the world? But it's not up to me. that the truth is important and we can't have morality without truth and we can't love each other without the truth and I'm sick and tired of everyone lying to each other about really important things.
[1:53:14] Yeah, and I really respected that about you.
[1:53:17] Well, thanks. And so you admired me and life is a form of admiration. And so if you want to be admired by a woman, you've got to tell the truth. Because if you feel she's out of your league and she's going to leave you, you feel like a fraud you feel like someone who's stolen something and it's being tracked down and it's going to get caught you can't relax you can't enjoy yourself you can't enjoy her company it's just tense stressful sorry you were about to say and i interrupted you my apologies.
[1:53:51] No that that actually accords with my experience it's being stressed and it's being feeling stress intense and yeah it's subtle it's very subtle and i i i had this sense that i'm conditioned to to deal with those feelings in myself so maybe i'm not what that.
[1:54:11] Means to deal with those feelings.
[1:54:12] Okay sorry um um so i had this low level of stress and anxiety in my life maybe 95 of the time sure but I'm so used to it that because you were raised by terrifying people.
[1:54:33] Your father was constantly taking a sledgehammer to the base of the family by fucking everything with half a pulse. Your mother was telling you we're going to be swallowed up by Satan's armpit a week Tuesday. You were raised with great terror. And I sympathize with that. I really do. It's awful.
[1:54:53] Thank you.
[1:54:53] And you had violence and you saw terrible verbal abuse flying back and forth between your parents were from your father to your mother in particular. it right right it's awful so yeah of course of course and your parents uh did not tell the truth it seems i mean your father slept around despite promising to be monogamous your mother went from not particularly religious to a fundamentalist which is the rewrite of the marital contract, significantly right and you said that they kept pretending to be wonderful parents, when they were screaming horrible sometimes violent and abusive right so that's a lie look how wonderful we are when they're not wonderful that's a lie right.
[1:55:48] Right so you were raised by people who lied and i think it's hard for you to imagine being in a relationship where you tell the truth i'm yeah i'm intimidated by your looks i'm intimidated by your, science-ness i am um terrified you're going to leave me and i am i i'm i'm really going to work hard to try and talk you into getting married. Even though you told me you don't want to get married, I'm here to get you to marry me. But that kind of honesty is terrifying. And the reason that honesty is terrifying is if you had been honest with your parents, like when you were a kid, what's the most, I'm not saying you should have, no, none of us really can when we've got volatile and difficult parents. But when you were a kid, what was the most honest thing you could have said to your mother and father.
[1:56:43] You're not love.
[1:56:47] Right you.
[1:56:49] Guys hate each other.
[1:56:50] Stop fighting you absolute retards yeah stop screaming stop yelling stop being childish toddlers dad stop being a hot dog in permanent search of a bun like stop being ridiculous stop being embarrassing, stop being yelling, stop fighting, stop screaming, stop throwing things, stop being idiots. You're embarrassing. Now, if you'd said something like that to your parents, what would have happened?
[1:57:19] I'd get my ass whooped.
[1:57:21] Yeah. So truth equals death. Honesty equals destruction. So you've got to hide. You've got to be silent. Right? So, I think in practical terms, I'm sure you have truth as an abstract value or an abstract virtue, but in practical, absolute terms, I don't think you know how to be committed to telling the truth in a relationship. And how could you, given your history and your lack of practical commitment to these virtues and values? Telling the truth is really hard.
[1:58:09] Yeah, you know, that resonates. And I've noticed it gets harder when I know someone longer.
[1:58:18] Well, sure. Especially if you've had a habit of not telling them the truth, it's kind of hard to confess later, right?
[1:58:24] Right but also if i'm just meeting someone on the bus right or if i say i just met someone and i know them for a week then okay i can i can tell them the truth about whatever um but as i develop a relationship with that person i have this sense that i need them to like me, all the time and then telling the truth becomes more and more and more difficult, well that's that's so.
[1:59:02] No i get what you're saying but it was interesting you said i need them to like me.
[1:59:06] And therefore.
[1:59:07] I can't tell them the truth which is to say that what is honest about you is somehow shameful and you've used the word shame probably half a dozen or more times over the course of this conversation right.
[1:59:16] Right so.
[1:59:19] Uh with regards to the porn addiction you you felt you feel shame about it you felt shame about it right.
[1:59:26] Right i did who.
[1:59:28] Was responsible for keeping you safe from pornography.
[1:59:31] My parents were yeah.
[1:59:34] Did they do that.
[1:59:34] No no i didn't.
[1:59:36] Who introduced you to pornography.
[1:59:38] Well i was a computer kid so i was i knew enough to get on a bbs back in the 14.4 modem days and you know.
[1:59:49] Okay so someone online or you saw some pictures or whatever it was okay right so your parents failed to keep you safe yeah now how could you not be a sex addict which is what a pornography addict is when your father was a sex addict.
[2:00:08] Right. Because that's what he, I mean, he modeled that for me, right? And he got me pregnant. He's my father, so I'm going to do what he did as a model.
[2:00:18] He's the model of, yeah, you know all of that, right? You've heard that before. So yeah, your father seems like a sex addict if he just continually has sex with women and lies about it, right? So your father is a sex addict. And I assume that your mother is to some degree a sex addict as well, which is maybe your father was really good in bed and the colored lights kept going round and round and that worked for her.
[2:00:45] I wonder about that what what why she stuck around.
[2:00:49] Well a lot of times because the sex is great i mean that that keeps a lot of people in in relationships so again i don't know i don't know right but uh your mother clearly had some significant instabilities and and no sense of what was appropriate to talk about with children or not you don't even if you believe in this end times crap you don't talk about it with kids and you certainly don't hang over like, you know that saying to a kid you're going to hell is worse than threatening to strangle them to death.
[2:01:20] Right.
[2:01:21] Because strangle them to death, your suffering is over. Hell, the suffering is eternal, right? It's worse than a death threat. Especially if it's not like 70 or 80 years down the road, but imminent, right?
[2:01:35] Right. And it's for eternity.
[2:01:37] And it's for eternity. That's right. And you'll be separated from all the loved ones above her. She's going to heaven, you're going to hell. I mean, and just torture. Well, and, you know, if you're seven and under, it's not even theologically correct. Because if the age of reason, you're not responsible for your sin, you'd go to limbo, right?
[2:01:57] Right.
[2:01:59] So, yeah, go ahead.
[2:02:01] I want to talk to you about aggression, because when you pointed out that the way I described the end of my relationship with my ex-girlfriend was aggressive, that really surprised me to hear.
[2:02:15] Well, the good thing is you'll hear it when it's played back, but go on.
[2:02:18] Yeah. um i i've had a difficult as you know right just hearing this for the past couple hours my relationship with my anger isn't great and at some point i became aware of that stop criticizing.
[2:02:31] Yourself man which we're here to learn to understand not to judge go ahead.
[2:02:36] Thank you um anyway i'm really into martial arts to to channel that and i thought i'd solve that problem right because i do jujitsu and shoot guns and Well.
[2:02:49] Isn't martial arts to some degree about conquering your fear?
[2:02:53] Yeah.
[2:02:54] Right.
[2:02:54] Absolutely.
[2:02:55] So conquering your fear means not hiding it, right?
[2:03:02] What do you mean by that?
[2:03:03] If you hide your fear from people around you, it's won. It's conquered you because it's caused you to lie and falsify your existence.
[2:03:13] Right.
[2:03:14] So to be honest about your fears with the people around you is to not lose to your fear because if your fear becomes so great and you feel ashamed and you hide it then you are lying and falsifying your experience to those around you which means you are smaller than your fear your fear has won and conquered you because it has caused you to have a rift between you and others by lying and falsifying and hiding.
[2:03:40] Yeah I see what you're saying, Because the fear has basically got me to erase myself.
[2:03:52] Well, I mean, you lied.
[2:03:55] I lied.
[2:03:56] You lied. You lied by hiding your true feelings from someone you claimed to care about. Now, of course, if somebody says to you, should you hide your true feelings from people you care about, what would you say? Of course not.
[2:04:11] Absolutely not.
[2:04:12] Yeah, of course not. But you do. and then you say gee i wonder why i can't get love.
[2:04:23] It's a lot to take in.
[2:04:24] Well not that much honestly it's really not that much just tell the truth, it's not complicated it's really not i don't want you to come out of this with like oh my god what a maze Stef has constructed for me to get out of it's really it's dead fucking simple i'm telling you it's dead simple you feel something you tell the truth.
[2:04:47] You tell the truth you talk about it.
[2:04:49] Yeah you're.
[2:04:55] Right it is simple i don't know why i feel this way maybe maybe i'm i don't care about what people think of me.
[2:05:02] Well everybody cares about what people think of them it's it's not unique to you that's because we're social animals so that's not the answer but.
[2:05:12] But the truth is more important than that.
[2:05:14] No, the truth is that you think that you are not lovable, which is why you lie and hide. You think you are not lovable, and that's why you lie and hide. What I'm saying to you is you're not lovable because you lie and hide.
[2:05:32] You know, the crazy thing is that everyone tells me that I'm lovable.
[2:05:37] Well, I'm not telling you that. I'm saying you can be lovable, but you have to tell the truth.
[2:05:43] And I didn't mean to say that you're telling me that I'm not lovable. I just mean that— No.
[2:05:47] I'm telling you you're not lovable until you tell the truth.
[2:05:51] Fair.
[2:05:52] I mean, you're not. Yeah. Nobody is. I'm not. Nobody is, right?
[2:05:57] Right.
[2:05:58] Because what's there to love if the person's lying to you? Just an illusion. Someone who's not there, someone who's the opposite, right?
[2:06:07] Right.
[2:06:08] And here's the thing, too. People who are honest, my friend, always know that you're lying. Like, there were these comedians back in the day who used to make up nonsense languages that sounded realistic, you know, like some Eastern European language or some, you know, a pretend Japanese. Japanese, right? And it sounded like they were speaking Japanese or some, I don't know, Croatian or some Eastern European language, but it was just nonsense syllables, right? And there was an Italian singer who in the seventies created a English sounding nonsense song. It sounded English, but of course to English speakers, you know, it's just gibberish, right? Now, so people who tell the truth, people who speak the language of honesty, always know when you're lying. So the only people who will let you lie are people who are also lying. so the problem is the problem is when you don't tell the truth you are doomed to wander this god-forsaken earth in the presence of people who lie, fuck that so your ex-girlfriend a scandinavian woman you put on a pedestal the goddess of porn addiction or whatever you want to call her right so she lied to you, right so she she when you said i want to get married and have children she should have said what i.
[2:07:36] Don't want that so we're done.
[2:07:37] Yeah this is not this is not going to work out and it didn't right right and now everybody's hurt and so she lied to you because she wanted to have a boyfriend and you lied to her because she was hot right right gee i wonder why it didn't work out now what the reason i'm hammering on this so hard my friend is because you, are gonna meet some woman let's do this this little game what's your favorite female name, mary mary okay good catholic boy yeah so you're gonna meet mary she's gonna come down on a cloud of cherubs and honesty, right? You're going to meet Mary, and Mary's going to be honest, right?
[2:08:31] Right.
[2:08:32] Now, the moment you start lying to Mary, even unconsciously, she's going to know it, right?
[2:08:39] Right.
[2:08:44] And so you can't lie to Mary. So if you want to have a relationship with someone who's honest, you've got to start practicing telling the brutal truths to yourself first and foremost, and to others as well.
[2:09:00] Are you familiar with the book Radical Honesty?
[2:09:03] No.
[2:09:04] Okay. Well, it's along these lines, and I read it, and I'm like, well, it sounds great in theory, terrifying in practice. And the gist of the book is essentially what you're saying. It's you tell the truth no matter what.
[2:09:22] Well, I don't, no matter what stuff, I don't like the word radical. I mean, just be honest. Now, honesty is a relationship. So if someone lies to me, I don't feel any particular obligation to tell them the truth. I mean, I won't have a relationship with them as a whole. But, you know, if someone's lying to me, I don't feel any particular obligation to tell them the truth. So it's not to me, it's not an absolute like gravity. Honesty is a relationship. But when Mary comes along, she's going to need you to tell the truth. Now. To tell her the truth is to say, yes, I had a sexless 15 year marriage and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now the fact that that happened is not going to drive Mary away. Right. What is going to drive Mary away is if there's two things. One, you lie about it, or two, you don't know why it happened. You blame the other person, you blame your parents, you blame your childhood, you blame whatever, right?
[2:10:22] Right.
[2:10:23] It never crossed my mind. That's an excuse. Of course it crossed your mind. that you might leave. Because if it never crossed your mind that you might leave, you would complain to your friends about it and get their feedback. And then they might say, well, you've got to end the marriage because it's not really a marriage. So the fact that you hid it from your friends and your family meant that you were thinking about leaving, but you were frightened to leave. And that's why you hid it from people.
[2:10:52] Yep.
[2:10:53] Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely that's why you hit it so mary needs to know a that it happened and b you know why the hell it happened so that it's not going to happen again right.
[2:11:07] And i'm better for it i'm stronger for it.
[2:11:10] Yeah maybe i mean that's maybe i mean i don't i'm not with everything that kills you makes you stronger i mean chemo doesn't kill you but it doesn't make you stronger so um so it's, you know i'm better for it that's the kind of bravado i don't know if you're better for it or not it would be better if you've been raised well to begin with right so you can survive these things and grow from them but you know whether you're better or not that's a kind of everything that happens happens for the best and i'm stronger and better and like you can get you can get good things out of bad circumstances but that doesn't make the bad circumstances good so i don't i I wouldn't go, because you don't know for sure whether you're stronger and better for it. You sure as hell aren't at 42 because you're single and heartbroken. So it hasn't made you better and stronger yet. So I would be very careful about jumping to those conclusions because that was your first instance of kind of lying about something in even the imaginary conversation with Mary. Now I'm better and stronger because of it. You don't know that. And how? Now, what is the evidence that you're better and stronger for having had a sexless 15-year marriage and got your heart broken by the Scandinavian woman?
[2:12:31] That's a good point.
[2:12:32] So don't do that. Don't do this false bravado when I'm better and stronger and blah, blah, blah. At least like we're just talking about telling the truth and you give an imaginary conversation with Mary. She's going to look at that and she's going to say, this guy's full of shit. And she's not going to say it like in some condemnatory way. Oh, he's a terrible guy. It's just like, yeah, he's full of shit. Like he doesn't, he's just making things up to sound good or to sound better. He just saying stuff. He doesn't have a commitment to the truth. like why did you tell me no I'm better and stronger because of it why did you say that what was the impulse behind it.
[2:13:10] I felt some kind of need to, balance out the shame I feel.
[2:13:20] That's manipulative what's the most honest thing you can say in that moment.
[2:13:29] Here's what happened.
[2:13:32] What's the most honest thing you can say When you feel the shame.
[2:13:35] I feel ashamed of this.
[2:13:37] There you go, that's it Don't give me this bullshit I'm stronger and better That's not honest, That's manipulative That's you trying to make the other person Not see your shame By putting on this false Bravado front.
[2:14:00] And and this i i'm this is not a criticism in any way shape or form i'm just pointing out the mechanics that somebody who's honest like the moment you said that i'm like that's not true and i so i'm telling you like people who are really dedicated towards honesty and again please understand this doesn't mean i'm perfectly honest all the time but it's something that i really work towards right so people who are really honest will know immediately when you're lying and that was a lie and again i'm not calling you some big flawed liar i'm just saying that that was a falsehood because you weren't being honest and saying you know i really feel kind of cast down and i feel the need to pump myself up and compensate for the shame by saying oh it's for the best right or i'm stronger like so you got to catch yourself you know sort of take that deep breath and just say you know what i really do feel ashamed at the moment, yeah so Mary will catch this stuff and she'll point it out maybe once or twice but if you don't start to catch yourself she's just going to have to move on, because she's not going to want to spend the rest of her life trying to wrestle you back into an honest perspective if that makes sense.
[2:15:13] Right, and I wouldn't want to be in her shoes so I totally get that.
[2:15:18] Yeah, yeah, for sure. And this is... So, you shouldn't give up on love, but you've got to give up on falsifying things, on false front, on bravado, on braggadocio, on, you've just got to be honest. If you feel ashamed, say, I feel ashamed. If you feel fear, say, I feel fear. I've only got a whole book on this real-time relationships. I don't know if you've read it or not, but if you haven't, it would be a good thing to do.
[2:15:48] I have read it, and I will read it again.
[2:15:50] Yeah, read it again, because you've got to really commit to just take that deep breath. and unpack your heart you know when earlier when you were saying things that i didn't understand what did i say i don't understand i can't follow i this doesn't mean when you said oh i'm better and stronger i said i don't think that's true and sort of here's why and and all of that right so i'm again i'm not doing it any and this is none of this is about moral this is not about judgment it's just if you want love and i know that you do you got it the price of love is honesty, and it's hard because of course in your family honesty was roundly punished, and your father was a not only a sex addict it sounds like but he also sounds like a pathological liar because he lied to your mother about everything to do with his affairs right right you said you said she she your mother found this love letter and he's like nope, not real doesn't exist i mean that's like i don't even know what to say that's like somebody standing in the rain telling you it's not raining and.
[2:16:51] That's why i don't talk to him because he he lies to.
[2:16:54] Me yes but like that but now you have to confront his effect on you right, so i hope that makes sense so yeah but if you i'm telling you if you commit to this honesty stuff your life will change completely well.
[2:17:11] I really appreciate it.
[2:17:12] You are welcome and i just really want to reiterate i mean i'm so sorry about your upbringing sounds really really tough and horrible and corrupt and wrong and i'm really really sorry for that as a whole i you know massive big bear hug sympathies brother to brother about about that and uh yeah it's not too late i mean if you were 60 maybe but um you're just looking for a woman 10 years younger and you can get that but the price is honesty you you're honest and you'll drive the liars away and the truth tellers will hold you to their heart, but there's no other way.
[2:17:48] Thank you.
[2:17:49] You're very welcome. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
[2:17:53] Absolutely. Absolutely.
[2:17:54] Thanks, man.
[2:17:55] Thanks for doing what you do. I appreciate it. Thanks for doing what you do, man. It's a light, man. It's a light.
[2:18:02] I appreciate that. Thank you. Have a great night.
[2:18:04] You too. Take care. Bye.
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