0:04 - The Struggles of a Sexless Marriage
2:51 - Conflict and Communication Breakdown
10:32 - The Patterns of Dysfunction
13:44 - Realizations and Transformations
17:21 - The Burden of Expectations
19:29 - Navigating Relationship Dynamics
27:15 - The Concept of Submission
37:07 - The Purpose of Marriage
44:23 - The Impact of Childhood Trauma
51:00 - The Shift After Parenthood
57:12 - Recognizing Personal Strength
1:06:02 - Understanding Mental Strength
1:16:15 - Social Approval and Consequences
1:18:34 - The Nature of Sadism
1:25:14 - The Illusion of Society
1:31:52 - Processing Disappointment
1:41:41 - The Dichotomy of Good and Evil
1:50:02 - Understanding Depression
1:57:10 - Finding Peace in Disconnection
2:10:05 - Navigating Good and Evil
In this episode, we delve deep into a thought-provoking conversation with a caller who reflects on his experiences throughout a long and tumultuous marriage, the weight of disappointment, and the journey to rediscovering personal identity and well-being post-divorce. The discussion begins with the caller recounting the struggles of his sexless marriage that lasted 17 years, rooted in unresolved conflicts and a profound lack of understanding regarding love and emotional connection. As the dialogue progresses, I help him unpack the layers of his frustrations and behaviors, drawing connections to significant past traumas and familial patterns that have influenced his approach to relationships.
The session takes a reflective turn as the caller reveals his emotional state following his recent divorce, grappling with feelings of depression and a pervasive sense of sadness. We explore the notion of conflict resolution in intimate relationships, illuminating how his inclination to please his wife often led to resentment rather than genuine closeness. I challenge his self-characterization as a "people pleaser," guiding him to consider the deeper motivations behind his interactions and the dynamics of submission and dominance that characterized his marriage.
Continuing our dialogue, we assess the relationship between his upbringing and the sadism he perceives in both himself and his environment. Our exploration of societal expectations and norms, especially surrounding masculinity and emotional expression, leads him to recognize an intrinsic conflict within—a struggle between seeking approval and asserting his own needs. These reflections catalyze the realization that he has not yet fully processed the impact of his marriage and its disintegration, which may be contributing to his current emotional malaise.
As we dissect the themes of societal pressure, emotional manipulation, and the quest for personal empowerment, I offer insights into navigating these challenges. The caller begins to see the importance of distinguishing between genuine connection and the superficial relationships often fostered by societal expectations. We discuss the broader societal landscape, particularly around the COVID-19 pandemic, and its revelation of human nature—how conformity and fear can obscure individual agency.
In closing, we navigate towards hope and possibility. The caller expresses a desire to find like-minded individuals and meaningful connections, recognizing that the pursuit of authenticity begins with understanding oneself. The conversation underscores an essential truth: the path to healing and rediscovery is riddled with challenges, but it is through this journey that one can reclaim agency and foster healthier relationships in the future. As we part ways, I encourage him to embrace the nuances of human interaction and the potential for growth that lies beyond past disappointments.
[0:00] Yeah, so I was in a sexless marriage for about 17 years.
[0:05] The original call, I was trying to save that relationship because I have a now six-year-old daughter turning seven. I was unsuccessful at that. My divorce was just finalized. The call centered around what I thought was love, I guess. Sorry i'm sorry i don't know how to turn off the video there i found the button so, yeah i spoke with you a year ago and what was revealing to me about that call.
[0:43] Was it originated in failing to resolve conflict in the marriage and i couldn't understand why.
[0:52] Me and my ex-wife are just fighting constantly and couldn't i was very frustrated with her i was being abusive with her and i didn't understand why i was doing that and the call pretty much illuminated you know the mother issues essentially never been loved never been gaslit really about the definition of love for a very long time and from that process i've been doing a lot of work trying to kind of undo that programming which has led to where i am now where i'm divorced i'm finding that i'm very depressed about it i'm very depressed, general i have a hard time getting up and going to work kind of feel like i'm all over the place here and where it's like i have this kind of like sadistic bent where i like i don't want to cause pain but it's like i get kind of this weird pleasure from it which i think you know as we've discussed in the past on other calls you know it's like you called out that my family was sadistic which i can now see and i'm like i've been trained in this way and i don't want to be this way and.
[2:18] It's it feels very familiar it feels it's odd it feels like i'm fighting myself.
[2:27] Don't be a jerk. Don't try and hurt people, which could just be another people-pleasing thing. So there's a whole lot of, I don't want to hurt people. So is that, because I was a big people-pleaser in the past with my ex-wife. I was always trying to constantly manage her emotions. And I, yeah.
[2:51] All right.
[2:52] So she, I was always trying to not offend her. Which was basically, I wasn't being a man. I wasn't just standing up for myself saying, no, this is what I want. This is what I need. I was always trying to manage her emotional state. And sorry, but how did you know that you could be a man with her? I don't. Yeah, I mean, because that's an important thing. When I say, well, I just wasn't a man. And it's sort of like, well, if I'm in prison, I'm just not talking back to the guards. It's like, well, you can't really, right? I mean, you're just going to get messed up. Right and it's interesting i mean not to go off on a bunny trail here, i would i just spoke with my ex-wife over the weekend this past weekend and we kind of drew that out like how the relationship died and why we actually kind of came to an understanding about it, which is pretty good. She, and I'm trying not to like blame her completely because it was kind of like we were two puzzle pieces that fit together in a very dysfunctional relationship.
[4:06] You know, we, I say we were kind of trauma bonded, like our trauma matched each other's trauma in a way. She was overcontrolled. I was completely neglected. So she would give me a bunch of attention and it was the wrong kind of attention that made me miserable because it was very controlling. And I kind of needed that female attention because I believe it's from lack of nurturing from my mother. So we kind of fit each other in that way plus her father is not a very strong male role model.
[4:44] Well you just you repeated child to trauma i don't know about this compatible stuff it's like you were used to being controlled and so you chose a woman who controlled you and right she was used to being dominant and so she chose a man who was submissive i'm sure i'm mischaracterizing it to some degree but that's the sort of repetition compulsion sign of the box of stuff, which I say this with deep sympathy, but isn't that sort of the mechanic? Yeah, yeah. No, I think you're dead nuts on with that. And you do this in order to justify what your parents did. Because if what your parents did is completely unacceptable, immoral, or something like that, right? Then you break the cycle. Or to put it another way, your parents want you to be with a controlling woman so that their abuses and neglects aren't high-lit for you. Your parents want you to be with a dysfunctional woman so that you're not with a healthy, immoral woman who's going to call out your parents' dysfunction. Correct. And I could see that because when I had that original conflict years and years ago, and I went to my dad for advice, he basically told me to pick my battles and not rock the boat.
[5:55] So that was his his situation he's just passing it down to me saying yeah you need to fit this model and i accepted that when i shouldn't have in my opinion but i mean it is what it is can't change well i mean your dad didn't have a happy marriage right i wouldn't say so of course not right so and and how old were you when you got married i was 20 right i mean so a young man for sure but i think that the idea of going to your father for relationship advice would be kind of like me going to my mother on how best to control temper yeah and yeah so i.
[6:44] Don't know does Does that
[6:44] Answer your question, or do you need any more information? Oh, no, it doesn't answer my question at all. So you talk about being a people pleaser, right? But you fought with your wife a lot. Yes. So I think people pleaser, I mean, maybe there are people pleasers or whatever, but it's too generic a term. Okay. And so when you say I'm a people pleaser, often that is a way of saying, well, I'm just really nice and other people take advantage of me. I really want to help people and want them to be happy and they just screw me over and take. It's usually a prequel to resentment. Right. I don't think of it that way. I think of it from the perspective of I'm trying to constantly manage your emotions, and I'm going to just fall in line and say, okay, all right, I'll do it that way because you asked me to do it. Well, no, but that's not being a people pleaser. That's just appeasing out of fear. Okay. I mean, have you ever had someone who's kind of like cringing and grime of worm tongue and toadying to you? Oh, whatever you say. Absolutely. I mean, isn't that kind of annoying? No, no, I don't think I've ever experienced that. Really? Well, you're a terrible sadist then.
[7:55] Like, you're really bad at this.
[7:58] Because that's what sadists are supposed to do, is make people a little scared of them, right? Yeah, and I've felt those feelings before, like when dealing with children in particular, which just kind of scared the shit out of me, because I recognized it and I didn't like it. Oh, like when kids were scared of you? yeah okay where i was starting to be cruel with them okay because that was another thing about growing up in in that household i was second born there were eight of us total and the i would constantly harass my younger siblings and i have eight in total is that right yeah okay go ahead and I would definitely you know.
[8:52] Don't think we were hitting each other but definitely bullying and picking on them and i would i remember getting upset you know when they would just cry and wind them up and it was totally just me and my older brother too we were just kind of fed up with the younger kids and it's just like this this cruelness that to me is just evil and i mean i've since you know tried to apologize to my siblings for that because and my younger brothers i remember my younger brother what we call call number five was like oh don't worry about it it's fine and same with the next one And I'm kind of like, no, it's really not fine. Like, I don't know what to do about it. Okay, so tell me about the people. You've got a theory that you're a people pleaser. And I'm not, you know, I have some skepticism, but that doesn't mean my skepticism is warranted. So if you are a people pleaser, can you tell me the people that you've pleased consistently, like that are happy with you and you don't fight with and stuff like that? Yeah maybe that's the wrong term because i can't think of anyone i know i'm very accommodating in.
[10:15] Groups like i'm very happy to help
[10:19] And i have this desire to be accepted so i want to contribute i don't know if that's really people pleasing no that's just being manipulative it's like me because I do things for you. Right.
[10:32] Yes.
[10:32] That's probably more accurate. Okay. So why do you think you have a theory called people pleaser, which doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence?
[10:42] Hmm.
[10:42] Probably because I didn't think about it. No, but I get that, but you still have this theory, right? Yeah. Because I'm trying to figure out why my marriage failed so hard the way it did. And i'm trying to recognize my contribution to it and i see the me just not pushing back against my wife or not saying what i need to her that's a big reason like i struggle being authentic like i was very afraid of her and i was afraid of losing her in particular so would just defer to her and try to not.
[11:27] Upset her. Like, try my best to not upset at any cost. No, but you fought with her a lot. Yeah, we did. Particularly at the end. No, no, there's no we. I mean, because I'm only talking to you. You fought with her a lot. Yes. So how is it like I'm such a nice guy, I don't want to upset her, I just want to appease her, I just want her to be happy and I fought with her a lot. I just don't feel those things. I don't understand those two things together. Yeah, I don't know. I think because that was my mindset and the result was fighting, well then it wasn't your mindset was not, to appease her to be nice to her to make sure she didn't get upset because if that's the case you wouldn't fight with her, right I would just I mean if you get pulled over by the cops right don't go there you don't you know but you don't fight with them right, no I just tell them no they don't know what to do no no I mean you can enforce your constitutional rights and I get all of that But you don't start yelling at them and insulting them, and you don't fight with them, right? That's true, because they'll just dominate me with superior force. Well, for whatever reason. But you're a cop pleaser, right? And I'm not disagreeing with that. It seems to me quite sensible. So you're a cop pleaser, so you don't fight with cops, right? But I'm not a wife pleaser because I fight with my wife. Well, so that's what I'm trying to understand, right? Right.
[12:55] And I was fighting with her. I'm trying to remember back to these fights.
[13:03] It's been a long time. It's been six months since we really had a clone. Yeah, it's not very long. I know, but I'm just struggling to recall them. I mean, the fights are almost never about to surface things, right? Right. Yeah, I wasn't. You're right when you say I wasn't people-closing her. No, I was kind of purposely not pleasing her. I was in a way rebelling against her.
[13:30] I was like,
[13:31] I don't like the way we're living in the marriage. I don't want to live this way. But before that, yeah, I'm sorry for the inconsistency here.
[13:45] It seems like there was a transformation
[13:47] Because I was in the marriage for 17 years. And up until about four years ago I would say it was me trying to not make her upset and do whatever I could to not make her upset until sorry until when until about four years ago okay, And from that point forward, I.
[14:11] Kind of realized
[14:12] That what I was doing wasn't making me happy. I mean, big deal. I have a kid. But I wanted the dynamic to shift in the relationship.
[14:26] Okay.
[14:27] I mean, I don't know what that means. I wanted the dynamic to shift. That doesn't convey any information to someone? so like so we were living where she was dominating me and i didn't like that anymore, and i didn't want to live that way and i recognized it as bad okay and how was she dominating you i'm not disagreeing i just want to make sure i understand well it was through conflict whenever there was a conflict it was escalation and shutdown tactics we kind of went over this in the last call. No, no, I get that. But in what specific ways was she dominating you? Was it like, we have to live where I want to live, we have to buy the furniture I want to buy? How was she dominating you in sort of practical, mechanistic ways rather than just there was a fight and she yelled? It was mostly scheduling type stuff. She wanted to spend time watching a show.
[15:29] And I didn't want to do that.
[15:31] And then if I said I didn't want to do that she would get upset and say you don't want to spend any quality time with.
[15:38] Me and I would
[15:39] Respond with well I don't I want to spend quality time with you but I don't really want to spend it watching a show like I find a show to be kind of boring and you know not exciting.
[15:52] For me but not that I can't sacrifice for her
[15:57] Basically she ran that side of the relationship and I wanted to do like I wanted to exercise more like we could spend quality time let's go for a run together or something like that she didn't want to do that, so I would just give in to sitting down watching a show and then I would just hate it I don't feel like she was understanding me or cared, that I found it annoying. Okay, so sorry, I'm not trying to diminish it, but your marriage ended because, you didn't want to watch shows, or you pretended that you wanted to watch shows, but you were seething. It was more the seething. Okay, so you lied to her and you said, I'll watch a show, but then you'd be bored and seething. Right. And I would say, I hate this, and I wouldn't tell her that. You would say you hate this, but you wouldn't tell her that. So Who would you say it to? I would say it to myself, like in my head, like, I hate this. Okay. And you didn't, but you didn't tell her. Correct. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, I think I have enough to give you feedback, but I'm certainly happy to hear more of your thoughts.
[17:12] Basically, she was running all, like, so another thing that I didn't do, I was very isolated in a relationship.
[17:21] I didn't spend a lot of time with any guy friends, which I now see is kind of important. Like I need to be able to get out and socialize. I'm very extroverted. She was very introverted. And I kind of deferred to that aspect.
[17:39] It's kind of where I say like, oh, I'm trying to just keep her happy at my own expense.
[17:46] And I remember she used to do these, she would do a party once a year and it was a big to do themed party. A what party? It was, we call it the Hobbit party on September 22nd for, you know, Bill Lowe Baggins' birthday. She's a big Lord of the Rings fan. A big what fan? Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings. Okay, got it. Sorry, you just, You're swallowing your words a little bit, so go ahead. Yeah, so that was a big event that would take a good amount of prep time. And I enjoyed it too, but it was kind of like her thing that she did with our resources. And I don't really resent her for it. It's just there was nothing that I did that was similar, like have a guy's poker night. It was because that that would have been a big deal like if i were to say hey i want to have five of my guy friends over and we're just going to be in the rec room playing poker, i would just have to run it by her i couldn't just schedule it i mean not that i would no i mean you have to run things past your wife right i mean you live in the same house right right but But it would have been like a scary thing for me to do, if that makes sense. It doesn't make sense, but I'm certainly happy. Why? What would she say? She would have been like.
[19:12] Well, I don't know. The house isn't clean. She would probably make up some excuse
[19:17] To make it not happen. Plus, there would be the, well, you don't spend time with me. Okay, let's do this role play because I'm not sure I understand these conflicts. Okay, so you be your wife?
[19:29] So I'd say, yeah, I've just, I realized I haven't seen my friends for a while. I'm going to, I mean, do we have anything on for like Sunday night? Well, Sunday's a family day. So let's see. What about Monday night? Monday? No, there's nothing on for Monday. Fantastic. Okay. So I'm going to have, I just, I feel the need for some hairy chest rubbing stuff. And I'm just going to have a, a bro night playing, playing poker with my friends. Obviously, we'll stay a little bit out of your way and all of that, but I just wanted to let you know ahead of time so that you're not shocked when the bros show up.
[20:11] Well, okay, but you haven't taken me on a date in two weeks, and it's like you work so much, and I don't feel like you're making any time for me. I'm sorry, I don't understand. What does that have to do with me having my friends over? This is something that I want to do. I mean, I do spend, we live together, right? We are raising a child together. We spend lots of time together. I haven't seen my friends in months. Are you saying that I need to take you out on a date and buy you things in order to see my friends? I'm not sure I quite follow that. I'm not sure, why are you making this about you? This is between me and my friends. And I'm obviously being a nice husband and all of that and telling you, but I'm not sure how you're making this about you. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.
[21:00] You should have guy friends. It's not really about that. It's about how I don't feel like you're spending time.
[21:09] I'm sorry, I still don't understand what that has to do with me having friends. It's a whole separate conversation. Of course, you can always ask me out on a date, and you can always arrange things. I'm not sure why this would be an issue. If you want to spend more time with me, then call up a place, we'll get a babysitter, we'll go out for dinner. I'm not sure why this sort of rubber bones complaining stuff is coming up. If there's something that you want in the relationship, then you should make it happen. But complaining does not make you very appealing, right? Just as if I complain, I'm not very appealing either, right? Like if I whine about not having sex and complain about not having sex, does that make you want to have sex with me does that crank your juices to the max no right so so when i say i'm having friends over and and then you complain about something that is perfectly, easy for you to solve that's not very appealing like if if you say you're just not spending time with me and blah blah blah does that make me want to spend time with you no i mean the way that that we enjoy time together if you feel something is lacking is you arrange for me to have a good time with you. Did you know what I mean? Yeah yeah i don't know what to say after that because i mean i'm trying to think what she was if i said anything remotely like that i.
[22:32] Would never say
[22:32] Anything like that but i mean what was there anything that i said that was rude or mean or no no it was it was standing up for yourself well i don't know what that means exactly but i'm just telling the truth like i don't see how right right you know if you want to spend time with me make arrangements to spend time with me if you want to go on a date ask me out on a on a date i mean i can't read your mind so tell me and then don't wait and just complain that we're not spending time together the moment that i bring up you know like you said we got so you said we got nothing on monday night so then you say well we haven't gone on a date well then why the hell don't you just make a date for sunday night for monday night right because sunday's family day just make a date for monday night but don't complain to me that we're not spending time together when literally a couple of days from now we've got a night free and you haven't made any arrangements for us to spend time together that doesn't make any sense to me that's like there's a class at the gym that i could go to on monday night but all i'm doing is complaining about not being in shape that doesn't make any sense to me so so it's just not saying that she's a sovereign independent individual who's perfectly capable to solve the problems she's complaining about. Whereas what you do is she complains.
[23:51] And you're like oh i gotta fix it
[23:52] But that's entirely disrespectful to both of you you know if if somebody's like in my life is complaining about, oh i'm i'm overweight or i'm gaining weight and so on am i gonna sit there rush around and create a meal plan and hire them hire them a private chef or some kind of nonsense be like oh that's tough tell me more oh yeah no i've sympathized man maybe it's got something to do with your childhood but you know obviously you know what to do like you're an intelligent person just buy a diet, book, eat less, and exercise more. It's not rocket science in terms of doing it, right? There may be resistances that are difficult, which I understand, but I'm not going to rush in there and try and solve their problem, if that makes sense, because they're an independent, smart human being, right? Right. And did try that line once or twice. Hey, why don't you schedule something if you're so keen on going out? And she objected to that and said, it was my responsibility to do that, you know, as the man.
[24:50] So it's your responsibility to ask your wife out, and it's not ever her responsibility, to make any arrangements for you two to spend time together. Right. Hmm. Okay. So have her make that case to me. So I say, well, you could ask me out, and she would say what? I'm sorry, I don't. So you want me to ask her? Yeah, be her and how she would respond. Like it's, right. So you just said, hey, you make a plan. Mm-hmm. Well, it's your responsibility as a man and leader of the family to pursue me as the woman. And I don't think you want to pursue me. And for me to make plans, it just feels like I'm chasing you around, and I don't think that's right.
[25:39] You're going to tell me what my responsibilities are as a man? You've never been a man. You don't know what it's like to be a man. You don't know what it's like to be in my body. You don't know what it's like to be me. And I don't know. I would never tell you what your responsibilities.
[25:58] Are as a woman
[25:59] Because I'm not a woman. I mean, we can negotiate these things, but I find it kind of incomprehensible to me that you would try and tell me what my responsibilities are as a man now you could say you could say well your responsibilities as a man are to take charge and be the the leader as in that's what you were saying right yes okay so then what would your responsibilities as a woman be well i mean my responsibilities as a woman are to you know follow my man and to support him and be loving and caring, but just a bit yeah okay so give me give me some examples so when i when we have a disagreement and and i'm stating what i want to need and you fight with me is that submitting i mean listen i'm i'm look i'll rewrite what i'm saying a little bit in that you can tell me what my obligations are as a man, but then you also have to tell me how you've modeled your obligations as a woman. Because if you don't actually have any obligations as a woman, you can do whatever you want. But I have all these obligations as a man. I mean, that's just exploitive, right?
[27:15] Yeah, it's tyrannical. Well, it's like saying, you have a responsibility to work for me, but I don't have a responsibility to pay you. I mean, it's just getting slave labor, right? So help me understand, because we have a lot of conflict, and you disagree with me a lot, and you fight with me a lot. Now, we fight together, or whatever it is, right? But if your responsibility as a woman is to submit because I'm in charge, how does that square with the fighting stuff?
[27:41] So the whole idea of submission for me as a woman is you have to be the right kind of man to submit to. And if I don't feel like you are being a good man, I'm under no obligation to submit. Okay, so that's not submission then. That's only submission if you agree and think that I'm already right. In other words, if you don't feel like submitting, you don't have to submit. But that's not submission. I mean, there's no law of the land that says, well, you have to follow this law unless you just don't feel like it. And then you don't. I mean, try that defense in a court of law. Oh, your honor, I just didn't feel like it. I i know how absurd the argument sounds because i we were we were actually fighting about this idea of you know what does it mean to you know the biblical idea of wives submit to husbands husbands love your wives and it got it got to that point where it's just she's only going to submit when she approves of me as a man which well no and so then so then i would say but you already buried me and you already had a child with me. So you've already chosen me. Like you've already chosen me as the leader of the family.
[28:58] If I hire, if I hire a personal trainer after reviewing a whole bunch of personal trainers, right? I want to get muscular and fit and I hire a personal trainer and I've been working with that personal trainer for 10 years. Do I then get to say my, the personal trainer that I've.
[29:16] Chosen to be
[29:18] My only personal trainer for 10 years, that he's an idiot, he's wrong, and I'm not going to listen to him. It would be ridiculous, right? So you choosing to submit to me is 17 years ago. So you can't choose me, choose to be my husband, and make the vows and give me leadership in the family and then fight me whenever you don't like something. Well, see, this is where the dynamic shift from four years ago comes in because up until that point, we were getting along fine until I changed. As a man well and okay sorry go ahead she the way i look at it she didn't want to follow in those footsteps she wouldn't submit right and again it's not really to you as an individual right i mean you you don't say jump off a cliff and she jumps off a cliff it's yeah the areas wherein you have expertise and have proven your worth over the years and and so on right right see the the model we were trying to follow is the biblical model of wives submit husbands love. And a husband that loves his wife would never ask her to come up. No, no, no, no. That's a bad model.
[30:34] I'm sorry, I don't mean to be heretical, and I'm not an expert in this area of the Bible, as I'm not an expert in this area of the Bible. But no, no, no, hang on, hang on. So do you know why this is a bad model? No, please tell me. Okay, it's a bad model because if the woman submits and the husband loves, then she has a perfect excuse to not submit which is to say i don't feel loved right which she said multiple times right so no no no submission is not feelings based right submission is when you do something that's the right thing to do when you don't want to do it correct i mean nobody's nobody who loves cheesecake says i'm gonna have discipline and submit to eating cheesecake Correct, yeah. Right, so if I'm in an argument and someone disproves a point of mine or shows me data that contradicts my point, I don't like it. Obviously, people want to win arguments, right? I don't like it. But because I'm a reason and evidence guy, I submit. Maybe the problem with the model is they're tied together well no the problem with the model is one is objective and one is subjective so the objective thing is submit.
[31:52] Right right and
[31:54] The subjective thing is i don't experience love i don't feel loved i don't feel that you're loving therefore i don't have to submit now how as a man like you you can't you can't objectively and rationally overturn somebody's claimed subjective experience. It would be like if I said I had a dream about being on the space shuttle last night and you were to try and disprove it.
[32:19] There's no standard by which you can disprove a claimed emotional experience, right? Because then it turns into this bullshit of like, you should do this. Well, I don't feel loved, but I do love you, but I don't feel it. And then what? Where do you go? And the tyranny of women's subjective emotional experience is crazy in this world because this is all this stuff like it's not what you say it's how you say it it's like i have this subjective experience that you're treating me with disrespect and let's talk about that and it's just a way of, not listening not submitting not obeying good arguments and reason right so what i mean sorry It's like an engineer who builds a bridge The bridge falls down And he says but I feel it's still standing I really feel it's still standing, Now I guess you could objectively say The bridge is falling down, But if a woman says well I don't have to, Listen to you Because I don't feel like you're coming from A place of love That's just vanity That's just angry will She can make up this thing called I don't feel loved And then she doesn't have to listen to anyone Or do anything.
[33:30] Women will often, it's not just women, of course, right? But women will often say, if I have a negative emotional experience, I don't have to listen to you. I mean, you can see this with, you know, whenever people from the conservative movement are on sort of the liberal media, which is basically to say the media, they provide facts and usually the female anchors are just upset. Or I find that offensive. And so if you say two and two make four, the woman says, i find that offensive then you end up not talking about two and two make four but trying to but talking about the woman being offended which is why in in the role play when i was playing you and said am i going to have friends over for poker and she says but you don't take me out i'm like that's not completely unrelated so i could stick with what i'm talking about right so if i say two and two make four and a woman says that upsets me i'd be like well what.
[34:25] Does that have
[34:25] To do with two and two making four right so it's the constant pull you into the black hole of my emotional state but it's not a real no it's not a real emotion it's not a real emotional state it's a manipulated emotional state it's manipulation it's a play it's a con it's a ruse whatever you want to call it it's not real it's just that if a woman doesn't want to do something and then she says she's upset then you end up talking about her being quote upset and never talking about the stuff she has to do Right. Like, it's a negative emotional estate for me to pay the mortgage, but I still do it. Right. Right. I can't.
[35:07] It's just a matter about being an adult, really. You have to do things you don't want to do, and you do them. Well, and it's a woman, again, this happens with men too, but we're just talking about your wife. It's women who constantly want to be wooed. Yeah and that's that puts men on this endless treadmill where they're constantly and this is what your quote wife said in the role play right is she said well you've got to be chasing me it's like no honey i already caught you like i got you 17 years ago you chose me 17 years ago i'm not gonna keep chasing you because that makes no sense i mean yeah it's sort of like you know when you if If you go to a car dealership and you say, I'm really interested in dropping $100,000 on a car, well, they're going to bring you a nice cappuccino. They're going to sit you down. They're going to chat with you, right?
[36:06] Do you buy the car if you go back in and they know you're not going to buy a car because you just bought the car if you go back in you're not going to get a nice cappuccino you're not going to get lots of chats from everyone because they already sold you the car right and so this women who want to be perpetually wooed it's kind of incompetent now listen i'm a husband i think romance is nice and you know i'll buy my wife flowers from time to time and send her nice cards there's nothing wrong with but she also does really nice things for me very sort of thoughtful things and picks me up things that I mentioned a month ago that she remembered. So there's sort of this mutual thoughtfulness about it. But the purpose of a marriage, the purpose of male and female is not to be wooed. It's like saying that the purpose of a car dealership is not to provide people with cars, but, but, but lattes and cappuccinos. It's like, no, the purpose of the car dealership is to give people mobility in return for money. And the purpose of a marriage is the having and raising of children. All right.
[37:07] Woo, for sure. You woo at the beginning. I get that. There's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. But the purpose of marriage is not wooing. Or let me ask you this rather blunt question. Did you have more sex very early on in your relationship as opposed to later? Oh, definitely early on. Yeah, seven, ten times a week, I bet, right? Well, no. If you recall, there were issues.
[37:33] Oh, yes, that's right. But the desire and the lust and the thirst was all there very, very strongly at the beginning. So when women say, I want to be perpetually wooed, that's the equivalent of men saying, I want the exact same amount of sex for the rest of my life that we had on our honeymoon. Right. Now, if a woman were to say that, right, well, we had sex twice a day on our honeymoon. So I expect for the rest of my life, 14 times having sex a week. The woman would say, what? No, it's the honeymoon. That's not sustainable. Right. And so a man recognizes that your whole marriage ain't going to be like your honeymoon, because that's not the purpose of a marriage is not to have endless amounts of sex, although that's a nice bonus, but it is to having and raising of children.
[38:25] Correct. And so for your wife to say, I want to be perpetually wooed would be like you saying, I want a perpetual honeymoon. And on the honeymoon, did I have a job? did i have to pay any bills no not really i didn't you know we had room service so for the rest of my life i want sex twice a day and not to have to work and also it'd be great if we lived on a beach, right the woman would say what i said no no that was that was the honeymoon for me and i want the honeymoon forever and the woman would say what no it's not right no we're not we can't i mean what we can't live on a beach for the rest of our life and have sex twice a day and that would be the answer to, I want to be wooed forever. Like, no, no, no, you chose me. The wooing is done.
[39:07] If you want to meet with your real estate agent because you're about to drop a bunch of money on a house, you want to meet with your real estate agent for lunch, she'll buy you lunch because she's anticipating making a whole bunch of money from selling your house, right? But if you're not in the market for a house and you call up your real estate agent and say, yeah, I'm not buying anything and I'm not going to buy anything for years, but it'd be great if you took me out for lunch. What's she going to say? I mean, she's going to say, like, I'm busy chasing clients that are. No, but you took me out for lunch last year, many times. Yeah, that was when you were buying a house. Right. So once the deal is closed, the behavior changes. So speaking of children, we waited 11 years to have children. And we didn't really negotiate that what is the marriage for idea up front. No, but you're both Christians.
[40:04] Right? Yes.
[40:05] So most of that negotiation is done for you, right? I mean, to a degree. I mean, in the Protestant... It's not like the Catholic side where it's like you will... Well, you had vows, right? Sure. Absolutely. So the vows do a lot of the work for you? Yeah. Love, honor, and cherish.
[40:28] So...
[40:28] And sorry, remind me why you were 11 years? i i i claim it's because our childhood trauma issues me and my ex-wife both had pretty rough childhoods so we didn't we weren't excited to make children up front based on the fact that we were just kind of coming out of that aspect at least that.
[40:56] Was my reasoning
[40:56] I'm sure if you talked to her it would be something similar but we just didn't want to make babies and i think that's kind of a thing i see that in in.
[41:12] Some christian circles
[41:14] I can know of another couple that's in a similar situation sorry you see what now is this the reluctance to have children Yeah, like you're married for a good five years, no kids yet. Now, I don't want to make any claims because they could be trying and they could be unsuccessful. That is a thing too.
[41:37] I mean, in general, and there's lots of exceptions, but I'll just say this in general terms. Maybe it applies to your marriage. So before children, the work is male, primarily. The man has to ask out. The man has to chase. The man has to woo. The man has to pay for dates, right? Yeah. And then, you know, oftentimes it's a male who pays for the marriage. It could be the father of the bride or the father of the groom. But it's very rare that a woman will pay for her own marriage. And so and then the honeymoon is not usually paid for by the woman herself but you know someone else or at least split and then you know you get a place and oftentimes the man is earning more and so he pays more of the mortgage so right until the moment that she gets pregnant the resources and and work and money flow to the woman right and then what happens is, that all reverses itself right tide comes in and tide goes out that all reverses itself when the woman starts to have babies now it's her turn to work right the man builds the nest the woman has the babies and then the woman has to raise the babies for the most part right so.
[42:56] What i sort of noticed with a lot of modern women is they want to stay in that greedy pac-man consuming phase where the man's providing all the resources and they don't have to actually have and raise the children, which is a lot of work. Right. And I understand that. I mean, it's more fun to have people pay for stuff than it is to get up because your baby's colicky. Yeah. And just so you know, my ex-wife did not work for the duration of our marriage. Wait, what? You funded her for 11 years? Yeah. With no kids? Yeah. Oh, so you basically kept her an infant? Basically. Okay. So, okay, let me ask you this, a pretty blunt question. Go for it. Was she lazy? Yeah. Compared to me, yeah.
[43:47] How so? Okay.
[43:50] When you don't have children what do you have to do with yourself I mean keep the house she kept the house great, she didn't cook as often as I'd like for not having any child responsibilities, you know typical like sleep in type stuff you know she probably slept until 8 or 9 well sorry did she I mean did she do charity work in the community volunteer at soup kitchen Did she do stuff at church that was very nice and time-consuming and helpful to the community?
[44:23] No.
[44:25] So she is just lazy.
[44:26] She did.
[44:27] She did do music shows. She's a musician. Okay. That's not charity. She likes playing music. Right. And she got paid for it, too. Oh, she'd have to pay for it? So you'd have to pay for it? Well, no, no. She would get paid by the gig. But in reality in my view they were more fun than work musicians don't get paid much money usually right and the reason they put up with that crap is because it's enjoyable, I remember we did a gig up in Rhode Island and that was a lot of fun we got to stay in a nice place and, okay so you're working you're working with commute and preparation and all of that you know probably 10 hours a day right easily all right and she's not so she feels aristocratic and she feels and and this is the problem when you when you give stuff to lazy people they just get entitled and they get manipulative as hell that's.
[45:38] The welfare problem
[45:39] Right rather than saying oh my gosh, I made a mistake. Like I had a kid out of wedlock with a guy who didn't stick around. I'm so ashamed. It's really bad for the kid. I really appreciate society stepping up, but I'm going to work to become as independent as humanly possible because I have empathy for the taxpayers, right? No, you give people welfare and they lose their morals because morals are about scarcity and they just get entitled. And then if you touch their welfare, they riot right so giving stuff to lazy people corrupts them so yeah i corrupted her well you certainly didn't help and and did you ever say what's for not having kids you need to get a job you do something no because it was my personal belief my personal belief which was based around having children was that women shouldn't have jobs, they should have children.
[46:36] And it wasn't until I had that... It would have been, I'd say four years ago the relationship changed. The wake-up probably happened for me about... It was right before she got pregnant, which would have been six, seven years ago at this point. And was the pregnancy planned? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you all decided, okay, we've done her 11 years, we're going to have some kids, right? And now, was she in her 30s by then? All right, it seems so, right? One second, I think she was 31. Okay. All right, so you have a kid, and then she's got a bunch of work to do, right? And, you know, that's fair, right? Sometimes you rest, sometimes for a long time, and then you work, right? Yeah. Okay, so how did she handle the workload of motherhood, which is, you know, considerable? I would say she handled it pretty good.
[47:39] Definitely.
[47:40] She didn't complain about your lack of contribution, right? No. That's nice to hear. And, you know, she breastfed for, I forget how long. It was at least six months. Okay. Not longer.
[47:57] Thank you.
[47:59] Until she i mean there were some issues with breastfeeding too but she understood the importance of that and the job i was working at the time was very accommodating because i because she had a she had to have a cesarean which is very rough so i basically had to take a month off of work, to because you know when you have a cesarean you can't move essentially it's very very painful, and so I helped around that and you.
[48:28] Know we all bought it with the baby
[48:31] She was great and yeah I would say she was fulfilling her motherly duties adequately and you weren't really fighting at that time is that right uh well with sleep deprivation one does not have much energy to no but that doesn't mean fighting I mean everyone says like stress leads to fighting no no stress can have you bond and laugh about it and be closer together. It doesn't, right?
[48:56] I mean, I remember
[48:57] The transition from the old self to the father self, which was just like, oh, it's not about me anymore. There was this very... Yeah, what a relief, man. It's so nice to focus on other people because the self does get kind of boring and circular after a while. Well, right. It's like there's this mission that's always there in the background. Keep the baby alive. Keep the baby alive. Yeah, yeah. So you're just like, whatever it takes. Yeah. And I don't know. Sorry, I was asking if you, so you were fighting, is that right? After the baby was born? I don't recall much fighting after the baby was born. Okay, so when did the fighting start? The fighting started, it was after we moved into a different house. And that's a good question. It may have been around COVID type stuff too.
[49:51] Because this is, So
[49:52] 2020 COVID happens.
[49:55] I get disillusioned with
[49:59] Society over that. And it feels like it kind of crept in. It was once everything stabilized after the newborn phase. And we're back into a routine. I know I was talking about having a second child. and we had decided to try for a second child but unfortunately we had a miscarriage so and i think that of course that is sadly common yeah and that was that was the end of 2020, that things went downhill into 2020. So 2021 on. And it was kind of like she reverted back to that entitled state, except with a child now.
[51:01] So now it was like... Sorry, do you think the miscarriage was the transition point? I would say she was very, very sad about that and understanding.
[51:12] And, yeah, I would say that would be a transition point. Okay. And how far along was she when you miscarried or when she miscarried? I think it was about six weeks. It's very early. Okay. So she was able to pass it without induced labor, right? Correct. Like a DNC. Okay. Got it. And listen, I mean, that's slightly less horrifying, but it doesn't mean it's not horrifying. Of course, right? Okay. But, you know, I mean, this is the Hamlet thing, right? I mean, your father lost a father, his father lost a father, you know, 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. It is a sadly common occurrence. And most women will go through at least one. So why do you think it changed so much? Well, I think because I was also changing. I was getting less I was getting less accommodating I would say to, not being the man that I felt like she's just dictating everything and I mean I was probably an asshole about it, i'm not trying to diminish you know my attitude but but you were rewriting the contract, basically yeah i mean she chose you i assume in part because you were submissive right and and listen rewriting the marital contract is a very risky business it's.
[52:42] Sort of like you know
[52:42] It's not quite the same obviously but it's like if you say well you know putting no others before us we're monogamous yep yep yep and then you're like hey i think i want to open the marriage up to other people and it's like right i mean that is you're rewriting in a sense the reason she chose you, yeah you know i was this is where the whole like the cult accusations come in from like the last the last call where she's like in a cult here because when i say i was disillusioned with society during covid i didn't mask like at all because to me it was total bs and you can you can look up the mosquitoes through the chain link facts is a good analogy yeah no i you don't have to you're preaching to the choir so i get all of that right right right so but women women in general i mean covid was a lot driven by women because and i say this with sympathy but women have a greater fear of illness than men, because women usually are the ones who have to take care of the ill. And I'm not going to say I'm clean and pure, because I got fired for non-masking, and the people who fired me were women in the HR department, who are still waiting for that apology. Ha, keep waiting. Keep waiting. Keep waiting.
[54:10] I was kind of, no, I was very mad at women in general at this point in my life. Because I see everyone around me playing this game, except for the Amish. I was surrounded by Amish, but they did not play the game. And I felt very ostracized. I remember being in the grocery store. I started going to this one grocery store because it wouldn't enforce any of the mask mandates because they were awesome. And it's like customer for life.
[54:44] I like you people.
[54:46] And this old lady was scolding me in the checkout line next to the grocery store owner's wife, who was also unmasked at the time. And it's just like, where do you get off, lady? You don't even know me. You're 40 years older than me. You're half my size and weight, and you are wagging your finger at me. Someone who could literally kill you if I wanted. What is wrong with this picture? Do you want to know what's wrong with this picture? Please enlighten me. You were given off submissive vibes. Okay, what did you do when this happened? During COVID? No, when this woman was.
[55:32] Finger wagging at you.
[55:34] I stared at her like an ostrich, you know, cocked the head slightly. Like, who are you? I should have yelled at her. Well, I don't know, but what, so you didn't do anything. And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have. I'm just giving you the mechanics of the situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I didn't react, you know, emotionally. So she got away with bullying you.
[55:55] Yeah.
[55:56] So how did she know? Remember, bullies are incredibly sensitive. Bullies know who to pick on.
[56:03] Right.
[56:04] So, how did she know that she could get away with it? I must have been vibing, you know. Well, there's something, because you said that you were submissive to your wife for many years, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you had the stamp on you. Owned by vagina. Or, I don't know, something, right? I mean, that would have been nice. Sexless marriage, remember? So... Yeah. How could she pick up on that? Because I don't know, but, but they do. Yeah. And I'm coming up and I'm not masking. I'm not following the normal.
[56:44] And yet she still finds the
[56:47] Way to how dare me in public. Right.
[56:53] I'm not trying to praise myself. Lord knows I have my weaknesses. But I didn't mask as a whole. And nobody ever said, I mean, my daughter and I got kicked out of a mall at one point. But I don't consider that bullying. That's just they have to follow the rules and blah, blah, blah. I don't consider it. But nobody ever said boo to me.
[57:13] Right. And if you're going to defy society's convention, you have to do it in a sort of crazy alpha way. Right you have to be aggressive you know somebody starts in your face you say step back back off back off step back and do not talk to me that way don't even try yeah which i was gonna say you'll be happy to know that the next little old lady that's picked on me i did yell at her and i said buzz off lady like and it was for some stupid picky thing on a walking trip she was upset that a group of us were I guess on the wrong side of the trail and it's like when you're in your 70s don't pick on a group of men like I don't understand why because I responded aggressively to her and she did back off, so I just don't understand that dynamic like she looked at us and saw what a load of nonsense you're talking okay sorry are.
[58:20] You bigger than your wife yeah
[58:22] I don't understand the dynamic I don't understand I don't understand why this lady on the walking trail could feel confident to address a group of dudes that she doesn't know well but I mean, part i mean she was right i mean she happened to like you happen to be going through a changing phase right which probably wasn't quite in your body language yet right probably not because she still addresses it if we were so so she she read the situation did any of the other guys say anything nope right so she read the situation correctly yeah yeah but she didn't yell that understand end the dynamic.
[59:07] Well, the equation in her head, like, why does she, I mean, she just assumes all men are weak, or she can very easily read the science. No, no, no, no. She doesn't assume all men are weak. She assumed we were. Well, she read your guy's body language, and she recognized you were guys who grew up with weak fathers and dominant mothers, and she could push you around. Yeah. It's sort of like saying, well, how does the lion know which zebra to chase well he looks for the smallest weakest limpiest one right right right, it's a predatory instinct yeah this is great i'm gonna i'm gonna have to go back on this hike and just portray total i'm an asshole don't mess with me see what i was yeah i was saying this to, my my daughter the other day uh about how because i've been look i'm obviously no big muscle guy But, you know, I'm fairly strong, and I have been working out pretty continuously since I was, you know, 15 or so years of age. So, you know, that's a long-ass time, right? Now, I've had some people kind of in my face, but they don't do it much. And that's because there's a physical read on physical strength. Right. And because I'm physically strong, it's not just the muscles.
[1:00:30] It's the fact that I work out that shows a certain amount of self-respect that shows a certain amount of I'm worth it.
[1:00:39] Certain amount of I'm going to move through the world with a strong body and good posture. Direct handshake, firm squeeze, straight spine, whatever it is you want to call it. Which is why, although I've had a couple of times people in my face, I've always been able to verbally put them down and back them off. Because they're reading the fact that I work out. And it's at an unconscious level and so on right yeah yeah so let me ask you this do you lift i don't lift, well then you're going to get pushed around the only lifting i do is in my workshop which is more of a hard labor type stuff i do metal fabrication as a hobby which is almost metal fabrication that's like being a musician just kidding sorry go on almost oh you want to hear my t-shirt idea yeah, metal is for kids who hate their parents emo is for kids who don't know it yet.
[1:01:44] Nice yeah so but now like yeah working working with steel is very heavy so honestly no but but that kind of i've done that kind of physical labor it kind of wears you out and it makes you appear they're just tired. Muscles don't do that.
[1:02:01] Honestly, it's, it's the simplest thing in the world. And, and, you know, I, I'll, I'll do weights watching a show, you know, just get, you know, 25 pounds or whatever, do some biceps, do some show. Like it's, it's so easy to integrate into your life and you can do a pretty good workout. If you focus in 20 minutes, it's nothing. It's like being in the bathroom with candy crush. It's nothing. It's so easy. I have never become addicted to candy crush you've never went i've never become addicted to candy crush well it's because it's a it's a girl thing so good no but i mean it is it is so easy and it is i mean it's just so ridiculously good for you and it saves you so much money, yeah yeah i mean you don't have to see the doctor nearly as much you don't get sick nearly as much your bones are strong you don't yeah i mean if you let your bones sort of deteriorate then they're easier to fracture and break and that puts you out forever you don't have to buy new clothes all the time i mean i just because i exercise and eat reasonably well i i still fit into the clothes i wore when i was 18 i just i've never had to buy a new wardrobe because of weight right right no i, i'm a runner so it's i like to do long distance right yeah do you know what running is pray like, I'm good at running away. I am. Yes.
[1:03:30] I mean, so take, I would just say,
[1:03:32] Obviously I'm no expert, but just take a little bit of the, carve a little bit of time out of the running and do some lifting. Okay. Also good for your testosterone.
[1:03:41] Yeah.
[1:03:42] I've heard that. I mean, lifting changes your odor and.
[1:03:46] People smell that on an
[1:03:47] Unconscious level. Hmm. The musk. Yeah. No, the pharonome. So for real thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay so so when you say you don't understand the mechanics i'm telling you the mechanics, no this is enlightening because yeah you're right because i never thought of it that way i i think have you ever done any posture work like alexandra technique or or anything where you work so that you know the idea is that your head floats and your body's kind of hanging underneath it and your shoulders are relaxed and and like there's a whole bunch of posture stuff you do that helps prevent conflict as well. Interesting. No, I've never, I've never done that. The only, the only posture work I've done is, you know, sitting at the computer desk trying to be conscious of how I'm sitting. So I'm not, like, out of the hut. No, you got to move through the world with some elegance, grace, and strength, and it just prevents a lot of problems. I mean, I've had it once or twice where I've been at a cafe or a restaurant and somebody recognized me and was upset or mad at me. I just stood up. Nice. Yeah. Now, I'm not, again, I'm just a shade under six foot tall, so I'm above average, but I'm not a tall guy. And I'm not like, you know, I don't have to turn sideways to get through doors and i could probably grab a post-it note between my shoulders i'm not muscle bound or anything like that but.
[1:05:09] To stand up
[1:05:09] Well it's it's a showing of are you serious well it's it's making myself bigger that's what animals do right and you think all these like cats hiss and put their fur up and and lizards have these flaps around their neck to make themselves look bigger I mean, I'm just, I'm getting bigger and back off. But you're also introducing the possibility of physicality, whereas they're just yakking. You standing up is like, let's add this element in there too. Or you want to go there. You need to, you need to step back right now. You need to step back. You need to be not in my personal space. Right. Right. Yeah. So, again, I'm obviously, I'm not perfect in this kind of way and so on, but I'm just telling you the mechanics of this kind of stuff.
[1:06:02] That the little old ladies scanned you and your friends and were like, yep, pushovers. And now she obviously made a slight miscalculation with you, but it didn't really cost her anything. No. And I just remember thinking about that after the fact. It's like, you're literally 100 pounds lighter than me. No, but you think it's about strength. It's not. But like, why? What do you mean? Why is it not about strength? Because it's about mental strength.
[1:06:32] In a bar with drunk if I'm in a bar and there's drunk guys that are you know 50 pounds heavier than me, I'm not going to go talk about their mother to them you know sorry but what are you talking about, like no this is a little old lady with guys yes there's the threat of violence sure we learn not to run them out as this kid because somebody's got a poppice one right right but this is a little old lady It's a completely different category.
[1:07:04] And it all has to do with social approval, right? So if you run your mouth and insult someone's mother at a bar and he pops you one, I mean, legally, I'm sure that would be assault and all of that. But a lot of the guys would be like, well, that was stupid. Why did you say that? Yeah, including the cops that show up. Well, the cops might have to press charges if the person really wants to. but they'd be like, my advice is don't go to bars and insult drunk guys' mothers. Right. Now, I guess, you know, we'll press charges and it's technically, but I'm no cop, but I guess they'd say, don't do the stupid shit.
[1:07:40] Exactly. That's exactly what it is. You know, like the guy who I remember seeing at hospital who complained that his broken arm wasn't healing and it turned out he'd gone skydiving. Well, the doctor still had to treat him, but he'd say, don't go skydiving, you absolute moron right no 100 hey i got hernia surgery and went on a roller coaster it's like well that was and i guess we'll stitch you up but that was retarded right right so so you're in a situation where if you mouth off to a drunk guy and insult his mother and he hits you i mean yes technically he's in the wrong it's a violation blah blah free speech but it's just stupid exactly Whereas, you know, what are you going to do with a little old lady that people will approve of? Right. You can't pop her one. Push her down the hill? Of course not. Don't do that, right?
[1:08:36] To me, I just saw it as what an arrogant display of what she's using, the social power to her advantage. She's saying, I know you won't do anything based on your body language, and I can get away with being rude and disrespectful to people twice my size. Sure. And why does she do that? Because she's right. Yeah. She's absolutely right about that. Absolutely right. So me screaming.
[1:09:03] Me raising my voice and telling her to piss off is a pushback on that idea in her head. Well, I don't know, but it's not about what you say after you get bullied. It's about preventing the bullying in the first place. Because you're thinking, well, what should I have said to this old woman? My point is, don't have her speak to you that way to begin with. Right, right. And you're right about that. the prevention is oh yeah yeah it's sort of like well once i'm in a fight how do i handle it it's like how about not getting into the fight in the first place right and do some martial arts so you're prepared if you well i don't know maybe martial arts but martial arts to me there's no substitute for weights because martial arts is kind of a bait and switch because you don't look muscular but you know how to fight whereas if you have some muscles in general people just won't mess with you well i'm also thinking weight class is a big thing too because even it doesn't matter how trained you are really if you are if you've got 50 pounds on them yeah weights weights is the ultimate non-aggression principle because it prevents escalation like having some muscles is the ultimate non it to me this is the absolute manifestation of the non-aggression principle.
[1:10:19] That's a great way to inspire people to go to the gym yeah i mean it's in conformity with everything I talk about prevention is better than cure and you want to have a non-aggression principle and if you have some muscles and walk with confidence people in general don't mess with you and they don't aggress so you're actually walking around with some muscles that are like you know pissing on the fires of other people's irrational aggression, right okay.
[1:10:44] So yeah the original, I feel like we've kind of strayed no no I'm still on the sadism thing if that's the major thing you want to talk about. Well, it's that and the depression. Okay. So I think the two are related. So we'll do the sadism briefly, then we'll do the depression if that works. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So sadism requires a trap, right? So sadism requires an excuse and I'm not calling you a sadist. I'm just saying sadism as a general principle or a trend, right? I don't want to reduce you to like two syllables in one category, right? So a sadist first has to convince himself that the other person is negative, bad, or annoying.
[1:11:28] There's a trap element to unleashing sadism. And this is why I fixated earlier so much on this people pleaser stuff. Yeah. So one of the ways that sadists act is they have to gather enough resentment that it feels almost like self-defense. There has to be an excuse for their unleashing of aggression. And, you know, some of it is like, I give and I give and you just take it, you take it, you take it. Right. And then they get mad. Right. and then they get angry. Maybe they hurt the other person, but it feels like it's self-defense because they're being exploited, right? Like if you've got a bunch of workers and they want to steal the factory from the guy who built the factory, generally they can't just go and kill him and take the factory because then they just feel like evil, right? So what do they do? Well, they need a whole ideology that justifies the theft. Well, it's actually our factory. He exploited us he's a capitalist a kulak he's a he's a bourgeoisie he's a he's a predator he's steals from us like and then they can rouse themselves to the point where they can do evil and feel like it's justified in other words nobody really wants to steal a bike but if they feel like they're stealing a bike back that's okay so the sadism is masked in a revenge or blowback fantasy.
[1:12:52] And because of that, you can act in a cruel manner and feel justified. And it's the justification that's actually at the root of sadism, not the cruelty. Because without the justification, the sadism really can't manifest. Okay. So you say, well, I'm just a people pleaser and I just, I tried to do everything to make my wife happy, but she's still not happy. Damn it. I've done everything. I've done everything. Right. Did you see how this kind of works, right? And then you can get aggressive. So the just yeah the justification yeah there's there has to be a trap there has to be a snare and so what was your justification you and your elder brother what were your justifications.
[1:13:31] For your aggression
[1:13:32] Against your younger siblings well they're just annoying they don't listen they're just always in my face they don't share like there's something that you do to build yourself up to the point where it feels justified it's their fault, so what did you say about your younger siblings that allowed you to be cold or cruel to them I gotta think about this because the context around the cruelty was.
[1:14:01] It was like it was
[1:14:02] Power dynamic no power dynamics come on there was something as a kid that you said about your brothers and your sisters that justified your cruelty, we were just bigger than them so that's not enough that's not enough i'm i'm i'm really digging deep here in the memory hole here so it's like okay did you experience them as annoying, yeah okay so they annoyed you so you're just pushing back they annoyed me and they would always appeal to mom right and so so they're smaller so they had to right so you were actually causing them to appeal to their mother because you and your brother were bigger and aggressing against them. Right.
[1:14:49] Obviously, it's a totally different moral category. If a guy's going to rape a woman and then he's mad because she called the cops, it's like, well, she has to because she's smaller. Right. Okay, so they were annoying and they called mom, which you caused, right? But you didn't sit there and say, well, I guess they have no choice but to call mom because me and my brother are bigger, right? No, of course, you didn't say that. We were just like, why are you just— That's what I mean. So you're a tattletale. I'm going to punish. So I aggress against you. You call for mom. oh you're a tattletale i'm going to punish you for that right you you just the justification is the sadism this occurs at a micro level this occurs at a macro level like genocide is based upon the dehumanization of the other right yeah and so why would i have to have an excuse wherein you're not just an asshole but they're annoying they're in your face they don't listen. They ran to mom. There's something by which your cruelty is justified. And the justification is the sadism because without that, the sadism can't manifest, or rather it manifests just as cruelty, which is anathema to the conscience. And I'm sure similar things happened with your wife as well.
[1:16:07] I'm trying to understand why I would be inspired to do that to my younger Okay, let's go to COVID.
[1:16:15] Yeah. You said you were disillusioned with society. Yeah, that's not true. Okay, how long have you listened to what I do? It's been about two years now. Okay. So, okay, that makes more sense to me. My apologies. Okay, so not including you, of course. For people who've listened longer, COVID cannot have been much of a shock. Okay. And the reason being that, I don't know if you've ever heard about the Stanford Prison Experiment or the Milgram, experiment or anything like conformity experiments, the majority of people are highly conformist and will murder other people if told to. Like two thirds of people, sometimes it's even higher, maybe a little bit lower. But in general, the significant majority of people, like, I mean, if you won an election by 66%, that would be a complete landslide, right? So the majority of people, the overwhelming majority of people, will kill others if told to.
[1:17:14] So, and again, I'm not saying, I mean, maybe you, have you ever heard of these kinds of psych experiments or anything before? The one where they slowly ramp up the voltage charge? Yeah, that's the one. On people? Yeah. And this actually came as a great, the psychological community said, oh man, only two or three percent of sociopaths or psychopaths will do that. It's like, nope. And the fact that this did not provoke a massive crisis in how children were raised tells you that this is what society wants, right? Right. Those in charge loving have love having the dumb zombie horde to provoke and point at. Right. So so look at COVID. Right. So you were on the receiving end of this. Right. Did you did you stay unvaccinated? You did, I think. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I just wanted to check because, you know, I remember you got fired for the masking. Right. So.
[1:18:02] OK. So.
[1:18:03] What did they say? They said that they didn't say, oh, these people are concerned about the long term safety. They are upholding the Nuremberg Code, which was developed out of the Nazi and Japanese torture of prisoners of war and concentration camp victims and so on. They wish to retain their bodily autonomy. They wish to have more data. And they wish to, my body, my choice, right? Yeah. Now, if they had done that, people would have a pretty tough time getting mad at the unvaccinated, right?
[1:18:35] So how did they get people, you know, this as well as I do, how did they get people to hate and fear the unvaccinated. They appealed to their emotions. They said, you're going to murder people. Yeah, they're selfish people who won't do their part and are killing your grandmother. Right.
[1:18:54] I mean, and they also tried to get people, I mean, it was the biggest PSYOP in human history, and everyone who emerged unscathed, or at least relatively intact, is like an absolute hero. But they also said that it is safe and effective. They don't listen to science. They're probably racist, probably sexist, and unthinking, and so on. And so they did. And they're putting you at risk. And also, the reason why you're locked down is not because of the government, but because of the unvaccinated. And then they tried to scare the unvaccinated by saying, you remember the Biden thing, a winter of severe disease and death. And also, I remember seeing these things and actually kind of laughing at them at the time. It's like, oh, this guy, he died. He died from COVID, and he's got four children. And his last words were, I wish I had just gotten vaccinated.
[1:19:47] Yeah it was a load of crap it's just a massive like massive tsunami uh psyop right way more like the the the milgram experiment was neutral right the the guys in the white coats didn't say to the participants you have to do this they said the experiment requires that you continue they never gave them order so right right right right so so you get you know i don't know i don't remember the exact number somewhere around two-thirds two-thirds of people will do it even if a neutral person is saying the experiment requires that you continue not giving them not saying you have to continue not punishing them if they don't not rewarding them if they do just giving a very neutral statement that's not even personal it's not even i want you to sit the experiment requires so two-thirds so with two-thirds of people with a neutral statement right what number of people with a massive concentrated psychological operation that's way more, right? Yeah, exactly. So you say you were disillusioned with society, unfortunately.
[1:20:49] But if you knew about these experiments, and you knew about your parents, you knew about your childhood, you knew about your wife's parents in childhood, you knew that nobody intervened and everybody sides with the bad guys, right? Everybody follows the propaganda, right? You've been a truth teller, I assume, for most of your adult life, and everybody knows.
[1:21:08] So what are you trying to say? You're disillusioned. It's like you're a zebra and you've seen 10 other zebras this week get mauled by lions. And then you see someone else get mauled by lions or a lion chases you. And I'm like, man, I'm so disillusioned to the lions. I remember being surprised because at work, they made us sign all these contracts. You're going to follow the guidelines.
[1:21:38] Sorry, you just muttered there. All of the guidelines. They were trying to contractually bind us into following guidelines put forth by the governor. Yeah, and that's for legal reasons, right? That may not even be in specific choices, but I assume that would be to, I'm no lawyer, but I assume that would be to limit legal liability. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I never signed that on purpose because I knew what they were trying to do. And I remember having a group email with my colleagues at the time saying, I cannot believe that this massive infringement on our freedoms is happening. Whatever happened to my body, my choice. Sorry, that's bullshit, man. You're saying you cannot believe this mass. I mean, Jesus, man, you ran for the Patriot Act. You said you can't believe this massive infringement on our rights. Why the fuck wouldn't you believe that? Okay. I was trying to muster up a group of people to resist it. That's what I was trying to do. Oh, so you were lying. I was lying? How was I lying? You said you can't believe this infringement on our rights. Yeah. But of course you can believe it.
[1:22:42] You can't. Okay.
[1:22:44] How old are you now? I'm 38. 38. Okay. So you're pushing 40. So you were in your mid-30s during COVID. Yep. You're not a kid, right? You're not 15. You're not even 20. You're 35 years old. You've been an adult almost as long as you were a child. You've seen all of the bullshit that people mouth and talk about, right? All the slogans that people repeat absolutely unthinkingly. You saw the Constitution and other legal, quote, protections in the West be absolutely shredded. And then you're saying like i can't i can't believe that they're taking away any of our freedoms so why am i lying to myself no i thought you were lying to other people i didn't say you were lying to yourself i thought you said you were trying to rouse people okay then but yeah i can't believe that it's like that's just a piece of rhetoric but it's not true you're an intelligent guy you listen to this show i'll put you in the top one percent of intelligence you're a pattern recognition guy. You're a guy who didn't get vaccinated.
[1:23:50] So the idea that governments would use an emergency to try and take
[1:23:54] Away your rights cannot be incomprehensible to you. Come on, man. No, you're right about that. What, that serial killer killed again? Unthinkable. I don't recall the exact language, but I remember being... No, no, don't fuck out on me, bro. Don't give me language to work with and then back away from it. I'm trying to help you because you said that you were disillusioned over COVID, I was that's how I felt at the time looking around at everyone throwing masks on nobody thinking about it nobody doing the math in their heads why was that a shock to you it's a great question I want to say because I wanted to believe people were better here.
[1:24:46] I think up to that point, I had thought that people would stand up for a gross violation. Well, and again, in Canada, that certainly was the case, right? The trucker protest is the single most successful protest in human history, in my opinion. And people paid a heavy price for it, but yeah, I mean, the restrictions were dismantled right after that. It was absolutely incredible.
[1:25:15] So you mentioned the patriot act the patriot act doesn't affect your day-to-day life as an american.
[1:25:24] Like so my
[1:25:25] My information shows up in a database somewhere i don't even know where that database is i don't think no i don't think that's true i i think that i think that that's not true because so think of the number of people who maybe want to stand up and make their voice heard and push back against tyranny and then think oh my god they've got all my emails and text messages like whatever they believe, right? And they're like, okay, well, maybe it's better not to. It's the dog that doesn't talk. It's the people who aren't standing up because they have some skeevy stuff in their history, right? So saying, well, it doesn't affect people. I think it affects people all the time. It's just that you don't really see it. It's the people who aren't there that count. That's my point. Like COVID was a very obvious thing that you could see. You have to put a mask on. You have to go put a fluid in your body, information in a database it was like it was a killer you could see right and still nobody, well and how many people have now that sort of more information is is coming out and like all of the i mean now even the authorities are saying oh yeah no it never really prevented infection and transmission so this is you know and even if people claim not to know this you can send them a link and they can read it in five minutes right so how many people have circled back and said ooh, you know, sorry about that, man, you were kind of right, or I think I got a little carried away there, or anything like that. Absolutely zero. And there's no social reckoning.
[1:26:52] Right.
[1:26:53] So is this the source of my sadistic ideas here? Like that justification? Well, so the question is, I'm trying to figure out what this might be. So being disappointed in someone is often a precursor to aggression. Okay. Yeah. So maybe you, I mean, we all have to process our negative feelings towards society if we think for ourselves. And it's a big-ass challenge, man. I still struggle with it. Be straight up. And I've been doing this shit for over 40 years. So we all have to process our negative feelings towards a society that is stupid and dangerous and willfully stupid and dangerous. Yeah, it is willful. Because we all have to say, okay, well, if I tell the truth about, you know, X, Y, and Z, there are a lot of reactive, aggressive, dangerous people who will try to hunt you down.
[1:27:53] Yeah.
[1:27:54] So the truth makes you a prey and some as predators. Now, our relationship to society as a whole, that's just a fact.
[1:28:03] And it started as children,
[1:28:05] Right? And you were abused as a kid. I was abused as a kid. Society did smack all about it and has shown, I mean, certainly me, has shown me no sympathy as an adult. Like, even if people think I'm some sort of bad guy, nobody disputes my childhood, right? Violent mother, absent father, institutionalized, had to pay my rent since I was 15 and on, right? Right. So nobody has ever said that's not true. So society, even if they think that I'm some sort of negative guy, never says, but he did have a bad childhood. So let's cut him some slack. Right.
[1:28:34] Correct.
[1:28:35] I mean, they will forgive like rapists and murderers for their bad childhoods and sometimes even let them out of prison or something like that. Right. But but not me. Right. And based on their skin color, too. Yeah. Well, you know, there's been a history of oppression, blah, blah, blah. Right. So, you know, even if somebody were to say, well, Stef's a misogynist, right? Which is not true. Of course, I live with two wonderful females. But then they might say, yes, but remember, he was, you know, brutalized and violently mistreated by multiple women over the course of his childhood. Right. Whereas, you know, a black guy who's bullied by white people, white kids, and they say he doesn't like white people, say, yes, well, but they did bully him. Like, so there's this complete double standard, right? So we have to kind of look at society for what it is and say it's full of dangerous NPCs easily programmed to attack whoever the rule is pointed. Yes, that's the reality. We're not surrounded, in a sense, by sovereign thinking individuals in the way that we are or the way that the people around us hopefully are. But we are surrounded by robots that a switch can be flipped and they want us dead. Right. So why was I thinking that was different?
[1:29:57] Part of it is, you know, over the course of our conversation, probably, I don't know, 300 people have died in the world, right? Right. Now, if one of those 300 people was someone we were very close to, we'd stop the conversation and, and like, so we, and, and, oh my God, I got to deal with this. And, and that's just so sad. And right. But so the only way we survive when, you know, a hundred people an hour die is to not think about them.
[1:30:23] And so part of surviving in a crazy world is to selectively ignore the crazy. Which, if I were to do that, would mean I would ignore the vast majority of people. Which, I mean, you do. Well, no, not just ignore. Like, honestly, I go to the mall, and I don't sit there and say, these are significant predators who would turn on me if somebody pointed at me and said I was a bad guy. Because I've actually experienced that, right? I don't go and play like a pickleball tournament and say I'm playing with robot zombies, easily programmed by evildoers to hunt good people like dogs i just have to you know hey how you doing you know like i i we have to ignore that to some degree just to live in the world now is that being inauthentic like basically you're putting on a mask for the npcs i wouldn't say it's inauthentic because i don't lie to myself about that okay right like like if if i'm out walking and there seems to be a dangerous dog around, I will curtail my walk and go home. Right, right, because it's not worth it. Well, I mean, the cost-benefit is just not worth it, right? So, you know, no man can face a dangerous dog and not think about his nutsack, right? Particularly in the area, right? So I look at the cost-benefit and I go home. Now, I don't lie to myself and say, well, I just don't feel like walking anymore.
[1:31:52] I say oh that's a dangerous dog so I'm going to have to change my behavior right.
[1:31:58] So what I do is if I'm going to play some sports tournament, I'll say, these people will probably be fun to play sports with. But they would totally turn on me in a moral battle if they were told to. Yeah, that right there. So me sending the email to my colleague was me putting more stock in that. It was me lying to myself about them. Well, you were incorrect, right? And Lord knows we all have to notice when we're wrong. I do it on a continual basis, right? So you had a thesis or a theory that your colleagues would stand up, rise up, join the good fight, and at least verbally oppose the encroachments upon liberties, right? Right. Or at least, you know, as a department, hey, let's push back and make the overseers squirm a little bit as they try and make us to do things that we all know is BS. Okay. So you had a theory which was wrong. Yes. Now, have you processed that you were wrong or have you just blamed others?
[1:33:10] So what do you mean by processing it? Well, that you had a thesis that was wrong. You said, I'm going to get my colleagues or coworkers to fight the good fight with me. And they didn't. So just admit to myself that, yeah, you were wrong. Move on. No, I don't. You don't just move on from being wrong. You process it. I don't know. You figure out, what did I get wrong? What were my illusions? What were my assumptions that were incorrect? I have not done that about that. I mean, if your brakes don't work and you crash, you don't just get in the fucking car again and drive off. No, you say, shit, why did I crash? Oh, my brakes don't work. Well, I got to get them fixed.
[1:33:51] Yeah.
[1:33:53] Humility lord knows i've been wrong hey i've got colleagues i'm sure they'll stand by me when i get deplatformed like i've been wrong right i've been wrong i'm i say this with all humility right i'm i'm i make mistakes i get things wrong but you got to process that shit right so you had a theory that you were surrounded by thinking honorable people right and you were wrong, i was wrong and you thought you were going to marry a wonderful woman, who is going to make your life better and fill it with love, light, and happiness and sex. I was wrong. Right. And I said, you know, you were badly trained and you were a young man and you had bad examples and God help you, you asked advice from your father. So I'm not blaming you for any of that. I say this with all sympathy, but we got to process when we're wrong.
[1:34:47] I mean, I dated women and we tried to be super nice. You know, there's this old meme. It's like, how do you drive a woman away? It's like oh just be a nice guy they hate that shit it's true so i mean it's a bitter meme and i get that but i tried the whole appeasing thing when i was younger yeah actually just young i'm not younger almost 60 so i tried the whole appeasing thing it doesn't work i tried being nice being super thoughtful blah blah blah blah and it doesn't work at least it doesn't work with everyone. Some people, if you're generous, will be generous back. Other people, if you're generous, they will exploit you. Now, I dated a lot of women in my life, and the first woman who reciprocated, I married. Yeah, you latched onto that, and you're like, oh, good one. Oh, absolutely, like a pit bull on a toddler. I'm all over that.
[1:35:40] Wow, that's vivid. So she was like 3%, one out of 30 or something like that right yeah and i'm like okay so boom three percent okay this right there's, So when it comes to being generous, most people, if you're generous, will escalate their demands and pillage you like a Visigoth or like Genghis Khan. Yeah.
[1:36:11] Of the women I dated, one out of 30 was reciprocal. It's actually similar to the number of people who donate to the show, percentage-wise. Most people will listen to this deep heartfelt heart one decades of wisdom and experience combined you and i and we'll be like oh that's cool and then go off and not donate a penny that's just true of people as a whole like the vast majority of people do not donate to the show, yeah okay so so we know that you know that yeah which is which is why i am a monthly donor by the way and i appreciate that i really do and and so so as a that's just the fact is that most people will exploit you if you're generous and i wish that wasn't the case and with peaceful parenting i'm sure that could be turned around in time but most people live at the level of like if you feed wild animals they will come and get food they won't bring your food back, that's just a fact most people are happy to be domesticated they don't thank you, for providing them resources they just work to always get more and will riot and aggress against you if you don't give them more or at least as much yeah i.
[1:37:35] Mean this is
[1:37:35] The sort of the doge thing that's going this is the fundamental incomprehension between the people in the media who are mostly benefiting from government money and the people in the general population who are mostly being pillaged and exploited and robbed blind by government money, they just can't understand it. They can't process it. I mean, it's the old thing that people on the right can understand people on the left, though they don't agree with them. People on the left, they can't even understand people on the right. They cannot process it. Yeah, that was the R-verse. So yeah, the R-verse is okay. So your depression, I think, is arising from the fact that you haven't processed how badly you got things wrong. And again, I say this with humility. Lord knows I've got things badly wrong over the course of my life as well. So I say this with an older than you, so with less excuse. But you got things badly wrong over COVID. You thought the world would go one way and it went the complete opposite way. Or you thought more people in the world would go one way and they went the opposite way I think so the thought that comes into my head was I thought people would do the right thing, and I was completely yeah.
[1:38:51] Interesting because even when my marriage was falling apart, I was seeking counsel from folks in my church, which I thought was a great church. And their advice to me was basically, you have to be better. Yeah, you have to improve, you have to change. And so this is what people do. What people do is when there's a conflict between two people, they figure out instinctively who who is the least volatile, the least aggressive, and the most rational, and then they work that person over. And they say, you have to change. It's sort of like you run across two people in an alley, and one guy has a gun, and the other guy has a wallet, and you say, just give him your wallet, man. It's not a moral judgment. It's just, okay, the guy with the gun is dangerous. The guy with the wallet is not. And I can reduce the danger by having the guy with the wallet.
[1:39:48] Give the wallet to
[1:39:49] The guy with the gun. regardless of the moral outcome there's no morals yeah there's no morals it's simply, power analysis yeah it's just a power so people look at you and your wife in the church right and they say okay who's more reasonable and who's not more reasonable okay so he's kind of thoughtful and he's kind of self-critical and he's going to question himself. Whereas, you know, maybe this other person, maybe your ex or your wife or whatever is more aggressive and volatile and immature and so on. So there's no point talking to the person who's volatile and immature, who doesn't really seem to have an observing ego or a third eye or, right, they just kind of act out. So there's no point talking to them. So yeah, yeah, I'll talk to the person who's more reasonable and.
[1:40:44] Tell them to change but you can't
[1:40:46] Do that and then say you're a moral authority god no of course not but the moral authority is just to cover it's just it's just it's just a power analysis so yeah this is why i don't go to that church anymore right, sit there and be lectured to. It's like the people who wouldn't stand with me during COVID saying, yeah, yeah, it was fine. It was good. We did the right thing. And I know they did the wrong thing. But they don't ever think.
[1:41:22] About doing the right thing.
[1:41:23] There's no such thing as the right thing. If there's only a power analysis, what is going to be more or less approved of or dangerous for me to do? Based on whatever context is most important and prevailing.
[1:41:42] So in their case, in the context of the church group, they're trying to maintain the power and status of themselves within that group. So managing me yields better results than managing someone who's well who what's going to cause them more trouble siding with the volatile dangerous person, or siding with the reasonable self-knowledge guy most people don't analyze what's right or wrong they only analyze what's safe or dangerous which is another reason why you have to work out because when you work out you have the you you have this wonderful portal open out call i can evaluate things by right and wrong not by safe and dangerous but like okay look at you're a church your model is jesus christ who literally went in front of pilot and said yeah let the the the men with hats murder me and pilot tried to get him.
[1:42:39] To not do that yeah he said i got no
[1:42:42] Problem with you it's nothing wrong that i can see you've done why are you even here jesus like you can't manage that over there and jesus's answers were specifically designed to get him because he was doing what was right not what was safe and if you call yourself sorry sorry who did so jesus did what was right rather than what was safe yeah what was right according to the will of his father to read garden of gethsemane i love your bible stuff by the way oh thank you just did a great it this morning but go on yeah yeah and to me it's the wildest story the whole thing because, pilot offers him the outs and he doesn't take it and he's like no i have to do this this way okay so let's look at pilot right so pilot sided with the jewish religious leaders rather than with what was right ah i would say he did a power analysis and he said, What's going to cause you more or less trouble I see what you're saying Yes, yes I don't want to riot So you're dead And so Jesus, the guy who did the right thing Regardless of consequences Is so memorable We're talking about him over 2,000 years later It's that rare, Yeah, it's true Right?
[1:44:05] I don't know what the latest data is, but I remember back in 2021, it was like 70% of Republicans, 86% of Democrats took the COVID shot. It's gross. And what's happened since then, I assume that, I mean, obviously those numbers can't go down because you can't untake the COVID shot. But the vast majority of people took the shot. Yeah. Or took one variant of the shot, I think. And very few of them, very few of them pushed back. In Canada, it was like 85% and so on, right? And the people who did take the vaccine, very few of them pushed back strongly against other people's right for bodily autonomy and natural immunity. I mean, clearly, if you are, I mean, again, I'm no epidemiologist, but this is my understanding. If you already had COVID, you didn't need the shop for your natural immunity.
[1:45:10] Just like chickenpox. Right. Why would you take it after having it? Right. There's no point. And so people just kind of got on the bandwagon. And the reason why propaganda works is propaganda creates a sense of danger for disagreeing, of disapproval and danger for disagreeing. And so weak people, it wires into them because they're like, well, I, and it's not just weak people. I mean, we're a tribal species. We need the approval of the tribe in order to survive. And this is why the USAID thing is so wild, because it's actually taking down the illusion of consensus brought about by propaganda, because people aren't just getting paid to lie. So you'll actually have a dialogue for the first time in decades in America. There'll actually be a dialogue because it's not going to be this wall of paid propaganda. Yeah, there's not going to be these AstroTurf buses showing up filled with random people all getting paid to chant. Yeah, yeah, to quote, to protest, right? It's totally organic. Yeah, yeah. Okay, got it. Yeah, like the buses. Because I don't think people were paid to protest 2024, and therefore it didn't really happen. I remember the Tea Party years. That was very organic. And I went to one of those rallies back when they were protesting a particular senator.
[1:46:30] And yeah, it's just random people. I was talking to people and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm just getting on this bandwagon. That had to get stopped immediately. Right. Because people...
[1:46:42] So right right so so i think the depression let's let's let's take an example right so you're you're lost in the woods you got no map no phone no compass you're lost in the woods and there are indications that you're actually going the wrong way i mean we could make up indications smoke in the distance whatever it is right but so there's indications that you're going the wrong way, now what does your psyche do if you just keep plodding along despite indications that you're going the wrong way this sort of used to happen back in the day i used to do a lot of course a lot of business travel which involved renting cars and driving places and this is before gps or map quest so you just had a physical purdy's purdy's map right and and so you're like oh i'm supposed to turn left at the gas station and you keep driving and you're like oh you know i'm pretty sure I passed it. I don't like, do you know what I mean? Like you get this uneasy feeling, this sort of vaguely negative feeling, which is your body saying, we may have made the wrong choice here. Yes. Right. Now, if you're lost in the woods and you just keep plodding along, the question is why? Well, you can't admit that you're wrong and you don't want to face the negative feelings of turning around. Hmm.
[1:48:05] I got something wrong you just keep plotting on because you won't admit that you're wrong now why do people not admit that they're wrong because they get mocked punished and humiliated for being wrong right okay yeah that's why people i mean in general i mean in general organisms survive because they have the ability to admit that they're wrong so for instance if if go back to our lion and zebra analogy. If the lion is chasing the zebra, then the zebra changes direction, right? So the lion thinks, oh, he's going to go this way. The zebra changes direction. The lion just doesn't keep running in the same direction, though the zebras go in the opposite direction. It corrects its course, right? I mean, if you're fishing in a pond and you're hungry and some guy comes along and says, oh, yeah, this is like a private pond. There's no fish here. Then you're going to say, damn, okay. And you go fish somewhere else because you're hungry. eat the fish, right?
[1:49:01] Does that make sense?
[1:49:02] So the ability to admit that you're wrong is foundational to the survival of all animals. If a shark thinks that a barrel is a seal and it bites the barrel, it doesn't just keep eating and consuming, unable to admit that it's wrong, right? So you made an error and a pretty significant one.
[1:49:26] But you're not processing
[1:49:28] That you're wrong and therefore you get depressed because there's nothing ahead of you but more woods and your depression may be your body's way of saying hang on hang on hang on we made a pretty giant error and we've just had two of them in a row marriage and covet right, we did wrong so depression i think is it is a it's a diminishment of energy and it's a way so let's say that that with regards to your marriage you haven't processed everything that went on with your marriage and you know whatever and i mean that's a fairly impossible task to do but there's.
[1:50:02] Major stuff to get so
[1:50:04] If you have not figured out what went wrong with your marriage then depression will help prevent you from getting in another relationship and thus ending up in the same situation. Right, right. Which I have not been in another relationship. Right, right. So your energies and masculinity and maybe testosterone will all be released when you figure out what happened with your marriage because then you can avoid it happening again. Right. And that's also for the sake of your daughter, right? You don't want another failed relationship. Yeah, yeah. Because she's going to, like your genes are almost saying, well, we can't model another bad relationship for our daughter. Otherwise, she'll grow up and never have kids. And what was the point of all that? Right. And that resonates deeply because I do not want to groom her up because she doesn't deserve that at all. It was bad enough with us getting divorced. I mean, fortunately, we're not at.
[1:51:08] Each other's throats
[1:51:09] Anymore. well but you know that's also prior to you let's say that you get some great woman then what happens if she's still single what happens is she well according to whose perspective my daughter's or my ex-wife no your exes she's going to vilify me well she she might get you know because she probably blames you right now if you have a successful relationship, going forward, then she can't just blame you because clearly you're capable of a good relationship. So she's then going to get angry because her self-justifications and self-righteousness is punctured.
[1:51:46] Right.
[1:51:49] And say, okay, if this guy can have a great relationship, then he's a great guy. So then I fucked up. Right. I mean, it's funny. I think like most people, I occasionally think of, you know, any ex-girlfriends, if they ever look me up and, you know, they get through all of the propaganda and stuff. Like, oh, wow. Right. Really happily married for almost 25 years. Wow. Interesting. Interesting. Now, I wouldn't put all the blame on them because I'm a different guy now and 25 years ago than I was in my teens and 20s. But nonetheless, I mean.
[1:52:18] I'm obviously still capable of it.
[1:52:21] So then the question is, and we can just close on this one, which is, okay, so the world is full of dangerous, easily programmed people who will attack any truth teller the leader's point at. Right. So what do we do with that information? Now, it's sad, and it takes away some of our buoyancy for a certain amount of time. But what it gives us is peace. It gives us peace, which is we no longer are invested in saving those who curse us. Yeah. It's interesting you use that word. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Well, if I was hurting someone, I would not want to receive salvation and positive feedback. I would want to receive negative feedback so I could change. And so with regards to the world and this is i mean this is the whole big de-platforming thing and i don't want to make this about me but i'm sort of telling you where these thoughts came from the world and even the quote movement that i was formerly not just part of but really at the center of has decided to go it without philosophy yeah the world has said and and even people i used to work with have said, we're going to give it a shot without philosophy. Right.
[1:53:41] But I can't change that. And so the world has said, yeah, we had this guy really good at philosophy. He was right almost all the time. And that's just because of the principles and all of that kind of stuff. It's not any sort of personal prognostication. It's just, okay, you follow these principles, you're kind of right. Yeah, he was right about Bitcoin. He was right about global warming. He was right about the corruption in the family. He was right about SSRIs. He was right about COVID. He was right about the vaccines. He was right about the social distancing. He was right about the lockdowns causing far more harm than they prevented. He was just right about government corruption. He was right about the perils of fiat currency. I posted a podcast I did in 2006 about how absolutely corrupt foreign aid is. And now Zelensky's saying, I can't find $100 billion. Come on. That's almost 20 years ago. So I've been right mostly. Of course, a couple of exceptions, but I've been right mostly. And people have said, okay, well, he's right almost all the time. He's got real deep principles. He lives with a certain amount of integrity, and he solved the problem of secular morality. But we're going to go on without him.
[1:54:58] Yeah.
[1:55:01] In its wisdom, decided to go without philosophy.
[1:55:06] Okay.
[1:55:07] Well, that's sad. I know that that probably isn't going to end in a very good place, but it gives me peace. I certainly did everything I could. I took every risk that I could. I talked about stuff that other people wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole, and not just individually, but in aggregation, right? So processing that is very liberating for me because now I can focus on philosophy, on this community, and what I think is of greatest value to the future because the present doesn't want to listen. That's fine. The present doesn't want to listen, so I'll talk to the future. I literally wrote a whole novel called The Future, right? So I'll talk to the future because the present doesn't want to listen. And that's very common with philosophy. And the better the philosopher you are, the more you have to talk to the future rather than the present. And that gives me peace. So it's like if you're on the phone with someone and you tell them that they're driving in the wrong direction and they call you an asshole, they yell at you, they curse at you, and then they call your wife and tell you you're having an affair. Do I care where he ends up?
[1:56:13] No.
[1:56:14] I don't. So that's what I'm talking about in terms of the peace.
[1:56:18] Yeah.
[1:56:18] I am no longer invested in where this guy ends up. He could end up in the Atlantic, he could end up in Vegas, he could end up, I don't care, because he not only didn't listen to me, which is fine, that's fine, that happens, right, but, you know, Scorn attacked me and then tried to break up my marriage, and then tried to get me fired, or maybe did get me fired, or whatever, right, okay, that's fine, so I no longer care where he ends up, I'm out of that game, I'm liberated from that, and I am no longer... Invested in that which I now tangibly cannot control. Because if I try to talk to the world and then the world attacks, rejects, and mocks me and then gets me fired and tries to whatever, do all these negative things. Okay. So I am now freed from investment in the outcome. And there's real peace in that.
[1:57:11] Right, right, right. So in your dealings with people in the world at this point, you are outcome agnostic.
[1:57:19] You just don't care. Well, I don't really deal with the world.
[1:57:22] I mean, I get invited to various places. I don't deal with the world. I'm not out there on public shows giving public speeches and so on. I'm not dealing with the world. I care about what's happening in this conversation, and I certainly care about the outcome with you and other callers and people I talk to or people I take questions from in live streams. I'm very much invested in that because I have some influence there. But i'm not going to chase after people who either stood by while people actively tried to destroy me or were the people who actively tried to destroy me i'm not invested in that outcome in other words i'm no longer interested in talking to people who not only don't listen but if they do listen try to destroy me i'm no longer invested in those outcomes so i don't talk to the world as a whole anymore because the world especially you know with the platforming and covid that was like a one two for me it's like okay so they don't want to listen to philosophy and in fact if they do listen to philosophy they attack the philosopher so and so so for me i'm actually harming their acceptance of philosophy by talking to them because they react against it and then they have a bad conscience and then they can't listen to philosophy like it's a whole mechanic right if someone does wrong to you they can't listen to you after that because that would be to humanize you and to have empathy for you. And that would be to reveal to themselves the wrongs that they did. And so they block off their own conscience, their own empathy. So I know that the world did me wrong.
[1:58:49] Now it won't listen to me. It won't listen to me because it did me unrecoverable wrong. And this includes some of the people I worked with in the past, not everyone, but some of the people who I worked with in the past who ghosted when I was attacked, ghosted me when I was attacked, even though a lot of times I helped get their career started. It's not like they owe me anything. It's really their own conscience that matters.
[1:59:11] But I'm no longer talking to the world, and I also know that it's kind of like, you know, I wouldn't have, but let's say I'd got involved in the 2024 election in the US. Well, that would have been a negative thing, because then people would have used that to attack people I was, quote, supporting, right? Oh, look at this guy's reputation. It's so bad. And so there's liberation from that. Yeah. I am no longer invested. And if people want to come to me and listen, fantastic. Love to have the conversation. I think that's great. Enjoy it. But I am not going to try and talk to people who now can't talk to me because they did me wrong.
[1:59:49] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:59:51] So my thought on this is you've developed a tribe that anyone can access. But they basically have to prove they are willing to come you know sit and listen by the fire and not be a predator you know well and even sorry i hate to nitpick but there was a guy a little while ago who got really mad at me for talking about shy people or something like that and he was very aggressive and we had a good old rousy debate and all of that i don't even mind the predators i'm just not i mean what happened to that guy i don't i hope you'll keep me updated about your life. What happened to that guy who came and yelled at me in this completely bizarre Scottish fashion? Well, maybe not that bizarre, because it was Scottish. But that guy who yells at me, hey, I'll have the debate. I enjoyed the debate. I enjoyed the fight, so to speak. But I don't care what happens to this guy going forward, right? That was an interesting one. Well, and I also know, and maybe you know two people. I know people, not two people, people too. I know people who themselves claim to have been COVID vaccine injured wow and this is not me saying it it's them saying it right right now of course everyone in my life i talked to about what i thought yeah so that that's so my conscience is clear yeah.
[2:01:12] So i'm i'm just thinking here for myself i just need to get connected with people that are not npcs i think i may have two and i have a good you see like you you created this sort of tribal environment on free domain and you're just like this is where i am come sit down if you want and i in response to getting my career destroyed and my you know marriage gone I'm building a business with like-minded business partners and that's going pretty good. It's not the greatest, but it's going better. And I've always had this mindset ever since I got kicked out, I have to build it myself because if I don't, I'm relying on those evil assholes that just kicked me out. Right. So you don't want to think that there are too many or too few good people in this world. now formally you were oh I'll talk to my co-workers there's lots of good people in the world that was a false thesis right and then.
[2:02:19] The depression may also come from oh my god there's no good people in the world right but those are two extremes that you know you want the you want an accurate representation right yeah because if we're not accurate we can't achieve really much in life so whereas before you were over optimistic about the number of good people in the world you don't want to let the 97 percent hide the three percent from you yeah you don't want to let the two-thirds hide the one-third or the three quarters, the one quarter, right? So don't imagine that there are more good people in the world, but don't let the number of bad people give you despair that there are no good people because then the bad people win and you're also not accurate. Yeah, and I've been struggling to meet newer, like-minded people. And as long as you know that you're probably, it's probably one in 10, one in 20, probably closer to one in 20, right?
[2:03:16] So, so numbers game,
[2:03:19] It's, it's a number of sales. Like if you've ever, I've, I've auditioned people for plays and I take one out of 20, one out of 30 people who audition. And even then I'm somewhat compromising on quality, right? Like the number of people who can truly open a movie, like you'll go and see the movie just because it's them. It's probably 50 people out of millions of actors, right? So if you, if you recognize that it's a numbers game, and I say this to guys who were dating, like most women will not be compatible. Three percent i i one out of the 30 women i i dated i i married right so i'm not going to let the 29 bad woman hide from me the 30th but i'm also it was not good when i thought all the 30 women were great or the 29 women or whatever right so so don't be over optimistic and it's easy to say right don't be over optimistic don't be over pessimistic but recognize that you're looking for probably five percent of people who can think and have genuine integrity and are curious and have empathy and if it's any consolation they're also looking for you.
[2:04:18] So so you say okay
[2:04:21] I'm most people i'm just not i'm gonna have to just eliminate them most people i'm just gonna have to eliminate them most people i'm gonna have to just step over step past bypass or whatever right no no hatred or whatever it's just no fear right and and sorry go ahead yeah i was gonna say the the biggest delineator i've noticed at least when it comes to meeting women not that like a mission right, just having the ability to have a deep conversation, is, it's been about one in, in that ratio, I don't know the exact figure, but vast majority can't get beyond the weather. And it's just, I don't find that appealing at all. No, and it's not. And women are also looking for guys who can have deep conversation and they're frustrated too. And of course, the problem is the older you get, the fewer of these women there are. Correct. And a few of the men there are, which means that if you do meet the right person, it's really going to be solid. But so the problem is if you think everyone's great, you're going to be continually disappointed and get pessimistic. If you think everyone's bad, you're too depressed to go out and talk to anyone. So you've got to have something in the middle.
[2:05:28] Right? Yeah.
[2:05:30] Yeah, that makes sense. Vitterness of being betrayed or depression because there are no good people is not either of the forks you want to take, right? Yeah. And it's, it's been very hard lately.
[2:05:45] Like, just, I don't know,
[2:05:48] I've been, it's been a hard time getting motivated and, you know, working, doing what I typically do. Right. And I think that's because you have not processed a big mistake. Now, it's not a big mistake in that you lost a leg or, you know, or you got addicted to crack or something. It's not like that. So it's a big epistemological, a moral mistake, but it's not a massive consequentialist mistake in that you just have to go back and say, okay, I misjudged my wife. Okay, I was 20. I had a bad family. Understandable. I misjudged COVID. Why? I misjudged people's response to COVID. Why? Yeah. Because I wanted to be... Because the Mildred experiment is like, let's say, 65% of people, and then you get another 20% from the propaganda that gets you to your 85%. Sorry, go ahead. As you say... Optimistic about people why was i optimistic why was i like yeah everyone can see this why did i assume people could see this as for what it was well and it's not like the 15 of people who didn't take the vaccine did so for rational practical moral.
[2:07:04] Reasons some did it
[2:07:06] Because they were completely paranoid some did it because you know they are stuck in ancient ideologies and methodologies. And like, so it's not like everyone who said no to the vaccine did so for sort of rational, moral, and philosophical reasons. So it's not even like, well, it's 15%. It's like, what percentage of those people did it for rational, empirical, moral reasons? It's hard to know, but it ain't 15. Well, I mean, on your ancient methodologies, I love the whole RFK thing, coming in and just exposing the sheer lack of data surrounding vaccines. Well, I've heard that there is some data surrounding vaccines from the 80s, but nobody likes where it leads. Yeah. There's a great book on this called Dissolving Illusions, Dr. Suzanne Humphreys. She does a deep analysis of the stats on communicable disease and sewage systems and how they correlate.
[2:08:08] And vaccine have very little statistical effect on outbreak. And this will go all the way back. Well, yeah, it's interesting because you can see the diminishment of the illnesses before the vaccines and so on. And I just know as a kid, there was no autism when I was a kid. Not that I have any memory of. And if you look back in sort of the history of literature, even people who were completely obsessed with detailing every psychological or physical malady known to man, And no mention of autism in 19th century, 18th century, early 20th century just did not exist. Even if we say, well, the term wasn't invented until later, I get that. But even the descriptions of the behaviors did not exist. And now it's like, what, one in 35 boys or something like that. So, yeah, something's gone on over the last couple of decades. If it turns out to be vaccines, it turns out to be vaccines. We'll just have to accept that. And, my God, the rage that people will have will just be truly, truly staggering. And we'll see. And with RFK in there, I think it's really our only shot to find out. Yeah. But even if we find out, people won't care. I mean, the SSRI stuff was disproven, what, a year, 18 months ago or whatever? Nobody cares? All right. We should probably wind things up if there's anything else you wanted to mention at the end here. I'm happy to hear, and I hope this call has.
[2:09:23] Been helpful to you. It has been helpful.
[2:09:27] I do want... One shameless plug for you, if that's all right. Plug away. All right. If anybody out there is spending more on Netflix instead of Stefan, on you, shame.
[2:09:41] Yeah. What is it like?
[2:09:41] 30 bucks a month now or something like some crazy number? I don't pay for it. Right, right. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, freedomain.com slash donate, or you can go to FDR URL.com slash locals to sign up there, or you can go to subscribestar.com slash freedomain. I appreciate that. All right. Well, listen, keep me posted. And I hope that, you know, just keep examining and going over your view of society in the mix of good and evil, because it's really, really important to navigate by.
[2:10:06] And I think once you get that balance down and you can accurately predict the ratio, I think that your energy and enthusiasm will probably return. Okay. Good advice. All right, man. Keep me posted. Thanks for the call. Thank you. Bye.
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