0:08 - Introduction to Self-Discovery
4:10 - Struggling with Recognition
10:06 - The Weight of Guilt
14:37 - Navigating Marriage and Anxiety
19:39 - Revisiting Family Dynamics
24:15 - Challenges with In-Laws
33:19 - Family of Origin Concerns
40:52 - Childhood Reflections
47:14 - The Impact of Verbal Abuse
52:03 - Conversations with My Mother
56:26 - The Cycle of Guilt
59:56 - Assertiveness and Boundaries
1:04:57 - The Dilemma of Family Obligations
1:16:35 - Confronting Guilt and Expectations
1:30:34 - Family Obligations Explored
1:47:32 - Confronting the Past
1:55:27 - The Dilemma of Family Ties
1:59:45 - Navigating Marital Decisions
2:20:51 - Defending Boundaries
In this episode of the podcast, Stefan engages in a deep and revealing conversation with a caller, a 30-year-old man from Southern Europe. The caller reflects on his past experiences of feeling like an "NPC" (non-player character) in life, before embarking on a journey towards self-knowledge and understanding. He expresses gratitude towards Stefan's work and philosophy, which have been instrumental in his personal development. Throughout the conversation, the caller shares insights into his personality traits, dysfunctional behaviors rooted in childhood, and the emotional struggles he faces despite having made significant progress in recognizing and addressing these issues.
The caller describes his realization of having passive tendencies, often seeking recognition from others without effectively expressing his own feelings and needs. He acknowledges this has led to feelings of resentment when others fail to meet his unexpressed expectations. The conversation shifts towards examining how these patterns manifest in his marriage, where he describes instances of being judgmental, particularly towards his wife. This judgment stems from his fixation on productivity and health, revealing a complex relationship dynamic where he struggles with the impulse to push his wife towards his own standards of health and behavior.
A significant theme that arises is the caller's struggle with reciprocity and the feelings of guilt associated with receiving without giving back. He shares past experiences of feeling uncomfortable when offered kindness or gifts, stemming from familial expectations about mutual recognition and material exchanges. This sense of obligation ties back to his upbringing, where he discusses the influence of his parents' behaviors on his self-perception and emotional well-being. The exploration of his childhood reveals a history marked by authoritarian parenting, emotional detachment from his father, and physical punishment from his mother, leading to a pervasive sense of guilt and a distorted perception of self-worth.
As the conversation progresses, Stefan encourages the caller to provide practical examples of his struggles, steering the discussion towards concrete issues such as his relationship with his parents. The caller admits to feeling guilty about not being more present in his mother's life, despite their unresolved issues. The discussion then delves into the caller's desire to communicate his feelings to his parents, highlighting the emotional toll their distant relationship takes on him. Stefan emphasizes the importance of recognizing the reality of familial obligations and accountability, urging the caller to reconsider his approach to his parents, especially in the context of their past abusive behaviors.
Stefan's questions prompt the caller to reflect on the ongoing impact of his parents' treatment and how it affects his marriage and potential future parenting. The caller voices concerns about how to manage relationships with both their parents now that he and his wife are starting a family. Stefan passionately advocates the need for boundaries with abusive relatives, asserting that allowing such dynamics to persist compromises the well-being of their future children. This leads to a discussion on the importance of moral courage and the responsibility to create a safe environment for their family.
Towards the end of the episode, the conversation shifts to the complexities of making decisions in a marriage when one partner feels emotionally obligated to maintain ties with their family. Stefan encourages the caller to be assertive in guiding their family values without succumbing to the pressures imposed by past conditioning. The caller reflects on feeling constrained and acknowledges the need for both he and his wife to establish a united front against external familial pressures.
Stefan's advice culminates in a compelling vision of assertive parenting and the importance of liberation from past restraints, urging the caller to prioritize the well-being of his family over outdated familial alignments. The conversation concludes with the caller expressing gratitude for the discussion, highlighting a transformative journey towards self-assertion and familial responsibility.
[0:00] Thank you very much for joining and giving me this opportunity to talk with you.
[0:09] No, it's my pleasure. I guess, as always, I'm sorry for the circumstances, but I'm certainly happy to help out as best I can. So lay it on me.
[0:20] Yeah, I would like to introduce a little bit my situation. I'm a 30-year-old South European guy, and I define myself as, in general, until starting my path towards self-knowledge, let's say, and philosophy, and in general, this kind of subjects. I define myself as NPC, generically, probably because I look at myself of the past and I don't even recognize myself. But I'm glad I went through this path. And of course, your material and your philosophy and everything was very helpful. So thank you for that. And yeah, since I started this path towards self-knowledge, I learned a lot about my.
[1:23] Personality traits. I tried to, let's say, build patterns between my childhood, my past, and these personality traits.
[1:34] And I found out that I had many dysfunctional behaviors that I didn't even recognize at the time.
[1:43] And I am actually glad of the improvement I did in the last couple of years especially and i'm generally happy with my with my life i i have a good marriage and i with a lovely person let's say and and and so i i'm happy about that but still i have some uh let's say some aspects of my personality uh that even if i rationally try to understand and also maybe repress let's say i still feel uh emotionally very very strong and sometimes my my first uh like gut instinct is to get back to those kind of uh um influences and this kind of moods uh while i try to uh rationally not um activate them let's say uh like for example i i feel like i need to be uh recognized like i i tend to be uh passive in a way in the sense that i i i've never been used to express my my feelings and my my needs and i i've been used to expect the other person to recognize my feeling and uh to or maybe recognize.
[3:10] Um something that i did for them uh.
[3:14] Expecting something in return, formally or some material stuff also. And when I don't get what I expect from the other person, I get rational that it's not a good thing to do, to get upset about it because I should be more open about my feelings and I should not expect others to read my mind. But still, I feel resentful towards the other person sometimes. And the escape I got right now is typically to repress this kind of emotion or at least talk about it. But still, I cannot, like, probably, I still didn't really, I don't know, maybe not enough time has passed, not enough analysis has been done about this kind of issues.
[4:10] I didn't maybe understand fully what is the reason for that and so that's why I called you for some moral clarity. And probably related to this kind of issue is also that I tend sometimes to be dismissive and judgmental towards other people and myself in general. So I tend to criticize people and also myself and especially when I.
[4:44] Do something I tend to, play down like for example I'm good at something someone tells me oh you're very good at this and I tend to say oh no that's not nothing special I'm just a normal kid you know even if maybe I believe myself that maybe I'm good at it. I'm not sure. Sometimes it's just appearance, sometimes it's self-critical but also critical with other people. And also, for example, this is something that happened with my wife and it was a very big issue in the past and I regret at behaving in that way. Maybe I saw some habits that my wife had and.
[5:35] Since I am a kind of guy that I'm very focused on productivity and also things related to health. If I read something related to nutrition, I immediately want to apply it for myself. And this is another thing I don't really understand why I'm so obsessed sometimes from things like it's like when I discover something that it's good for me, it's like if I don't do it straight away, it's like I'm dying the day after death. But I did it. I did the same habit. I avoided the same habit for the whole life, maybe. So that's not the case. But anyway, maybe my wife doesn't have the same approach for other reasons that are related maybe to her personality and her experience.
[6:37] And in the past, before going through this maybe real-time relationship building, I was more pushy. So I was not curious about the reasons why she was like this. And she was like appeared to me lazy and I was like representing her in my head as lazy. But actually, she wasn't lazy. She was just she had her reason to not do that. Maybe she had her avoidance issues or this kind of stuff. And I was tending towards pushing her while maybe recently I switched to more curiosity and she's more curious about my emotional feelings. But still, sometimes it still happens that I feel emotionally tending towards critical behaviors. Towards judging her superficially, maybe as lazy in some ways, even if maybe I restrain my behavior and I don't attack her. I try to be more curious. I, in some way, trace back irrationally to my childhood and some of the modeling that my parents.
[8:05] Have done to me, but probably I'm still not there completely since some of these issues are still present. And one last thing I wanted to mention as this introduction is that I also have, since I have this issue with reciprocity, like it's something that in my family there was also this, there was always this material reciprocity, like I do you a favor, I expect from you a favor, or I expect from you some formal thank you, some formal way of recognizing that I did something from you. I'm prone to a sense of guilt. I'm not sure it's the right word, but still, I feel guilty if someone is doing something for me and I don't have anything in return. So, for example, in the past, I was always refusing stuff for free when I was going to France as a guest. They were maybe offering me some pastry or some drinks or whatever. My first instinct was to say no and to be very not comfortable with those situations.
[9:34] Even if maybe they were very happy to offer me this kind of stuff. I was like seeing as, oh, I didn't bring anything to your house, so I feel guilty about it. So I don't want to bother you, while they were not thinking the same as well, for sure. So yeah, that's basically what I'm still struggling with. And yeah, that's it.
[10:06] Okay, so what's a practical issue that happens? Right, so give me a practical, like, so solving these things in the abstract is interesting enough, but what is a practical example of what you would like to figure out?
[10:23] A practical example? Okay. Yes, a practical example, like for the guilty feeling, would be my relationship with my parents, for example. This deal that is still ongoing. Let's say I still didn't, I'm still not satisfied with them.
[10:48] Let's say, clarifying with them and the solution that I got to. It's not a solution, of course. But for example, I confronted my mother many times and we reached a point in which I'm not really eager going on. And so we are not talking much.
[11:13] And when I hear from my brother that maybe she got sick for something and she went maybe to the hospital, I feel guilty as if I should be there for her, no matter what. Like, rationally, I understand that it's not the case, but still I have this inner sense of guilty. Maybe it's normal for a son at the beginning, maybe, I'm not sure. But I think also this reciprocity thing has something to do with it. And the same with my father, since they separated a couple of years ago, I see him as very lonely and his life seems not to have much joy in the moment. And while I think he did not behave correctly towards me and my brother, and he's not very emotional present in general, I still feel somewhat my responsibility to be there for him, even if I'm not there. But I still feel bad sometimes thinking about it. I'm not sure if it's practical enough, let's say. Thank you.
[12:41] Okay, and how well do you think you're responding to my direct questions at the moment? When I ask for practical examples, then you go on a... And that's not a criticism, I'm just asking, do you think that you're answering my questions? Because it sounds like you're going on monologues about more abstractions.
[13:00] Yeah, probably not.
[13:02] Again, I'm not trying to nag you, I'm just curious what your experience is of... Like, do you think that, so in general, when you communicate, of course, then what you want to do is you want to figure out whether or not you've answered someone's question.
[13:18] Yes.
[13:18] Does that make sense? Okay. Do you think that you've answered my question?
[13:24] Not. No. I can think.
[13:34] Okay.
[13:34] Yes. Yes, a practical example of these abstract feelings that I described you.
[13:42] Okay, do you think you gave me... Again, I'm not trying to nag you or bug you, but do you think that you gave me a practical example of these issues?
[13:54] No, probably it's still abstract. So maybe I can... Yes i probably one one is more more practical i i have in mind right now uh it's um.
[14:15] Last week i was uh with my wife and um she has recently uh got pregnant and, thank you very much congratulations and i'm uh we are a bit scared because we had uh first miscarriage a couple of months ago.
[14:37] So my pushiness, the thing that brings me to be pushy, is particularly triggered in this situation because I see her health, but also the.
[14:54] The fetus health in in steak let's say and she um she had um she wanted to to to eat something that i i feel like it's not good for the health of the of the of the baby let's say and i immediately My emotional feeling was immediately to imagine her as being, I don't know, not enough, with not enough willpower. And I immediately panicked and I tried to not let her see it because I knew it was not good because I need to trust her and to...
[15:47] To trust that she makes the good decision. And I know that I tend to over-exaggerate this kind of situation.
[15:59] A sweet thing is not the end of the world, of course. Not a sweet thing. Even if it's not the best thing to eat, it's not the end of the world. But I tend to over-exaggerate this kind of thing. And she noticed it, of course. and she asked me what was going on and I tried to explain it to her and I was feeling and I explained to her that I didn't want to push her. But still, the fact that I had this kind of emotion made me feel bad because I had to explain it to her and in some way she got, influenced by this, of course, because I'm her husband. So, I don't know, maybe that's a more practical and recent thing that I came into.
[16:56] Okay, so the issue then is that you are too fussy or worried or over-cautious about your wife's diet when she's pregnant? Okay, and what effect does that have on your marriage?
[17:15] Before getting married, we had a lot of issues with that. And now we still have some arguments about it but I believe we are doing some improvement in this field at least I'm acknowledging the fact that it's not correct for me to be fussy and pushy and I'm trying to restrain myself to do so but still it's not the best situation that's why I want to improve it, So, yes, there is some kind of arguments related to this. We had some arguments in that night in particular. There was some tension, let's say, not a fight, let's say, but there was some tension. So, yeah.
[18:14] Okay, so I still don't know what effect this has on your memory. So give me, does your wife get angry at you for being concerned about this stuff? I mean, I'm trying to sort of, is she exasperated? How much time do you spend on any given week dealing with this kind of issue?
[18:41] No, she's not exasperated. She's comprehensive. She's curious about it. She's not happy when I have this kind of emotion but it's not a great deal at the moment it happens once in a while and we figure it out in a relatively short time but still I feel bad about it it doesn't have a big effect on my marriage I'm happy with my, relationship with her but still I feel that I need to, fix it, like to improve it.
[19:20] Okay, I mean, you know, I mean, these shows, and I'm still very happy we're talking and all of that. So again, there's nothing negative here. But these shows tend to be more about like, this is an ER, right? Like the call-in shows are usually for things that are kind of high stakes and emergencies. Now, I don't have any problem dealing with this. I'm just a bit surprised.
[19:39] Because normally, when people email me, they're kind of desperate for things to be solved right away, because there's some big issue that's occurring. And if i just want to make sure that we're going to deal with the right thing because if your issue is well i could be i could stand to be a little bit less concerned with what my wife eats even though it doesn't really bother her that much and we've mostly solved it if that's your issue i'm happy to talk about it i'm just a little surprised and that nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with anything you've done i'm a little surprised and i don't want you to get off the call and then be like, ah, you know what? We didn't actually get to the important thing.
[20:16] Yeah, yeah, sure. I understand your point and you're totally right.
[20:20] So of all the issues in your life, this is the one we have our precious little time together, right? So of all the issues in your life, this is the one that you want to focus on is being a bit over-concerned because of a prior, miscarriage about your wife's eating habits, even though she's not particularly bothered by it and it's not a particularly big issue in your marriage. Again, I'm fine to talk about it. I just want to make sure that we are doing the right thing.
[20:51] Yeah, no, probably I didn't focus on the right thing. I have to say that I feel this thing very strongly. I feel the emotion that I feel when I deal with this situation. I feel it's very strongly like i feel it like it's personal not not that uh she's eating a candy and that's that's a very big issue objectively i i feel it like it's she's doing something uh personal to me so that's that's why i i wanted to dig more into it and um maybe maybe i i i don't know i i'm just over paranoid on this stuff. Maybe it's not... I understand that what you're saying, it doesn't have a big practical impact, so maybe that's not the best use of the time.
[21:52] No, no, listen. Whatever you want to talk about, I'm fine with. This is your call. It's just that I don't think... I mean, I've been doing this for a long time, and I don't think... That I have had this small an issue in a call-in show. Now, again, I'm not complaining about it at all. I'm just a little surprised. And if that's what you want to do, I'm happy to accommodate. But I'm just a little surprised, if that makes sense.
[22:24] No, maybe you are right. Maybe I was over... I don't know how to say it. Sorry. Over-exaggerating it in my mind. Maybe it's better to focus on other topics of the list that I wanted to address. Like, for example, the fact that I feel like... I don't know what to say, sorry.
[23:04] I have some concerns related to how to deal with a family of origins, let's say, during my future. I strongly want to have a family with my wife, but there is some issue with the family of origins. We would strongly like to have some social support in our surroundings but we don't feel that our family of origin are the right people to do so. The fact is that on my side, I'm having some issues in dealing with my sense of guilt that I was explaining before. And on her side, also my wife has some issues with her parents, with dealing with them.
[24:16] And she legitimately doesn't want to cut them from her life, even if she acknowledges the damage that they did.
[24:34] Sorry, but it's not about her. Again, she's not here, so we can just keep this brief. but what's a brief sketch of the issues, let's say, that your wife's parents inflicted on her, negative things when she was a kid?
[24:53] Yeah, what I was going, sorry, I just wanted to finish my thought. The thing is that I.
[24:59] No, no, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I've listened for a while now, right? I mean, close to half an hour, right? And I've yet to get any particularly substantive answers to my question. So I'm going to be a little annoying here. And I'm just going to say that I would like an answer to my question because I've been listening for a long time. I'm still no clearer about what we're dealing with. And I do have to think of the audience who listens to this, right? Okay. So if you could just let me take the lead for just a little bit and just answer the question about what are the issues that your wife has with her parents about how they raised her?
[25:39] Yes, just briefly. I don't want to take her words from me. And her mother is very pressing with her. She's like playing the victim. Her father was very violent towards her siblings. She has a substantial age gap from her siblings. Her sister and her brother are 10 and 7 years older than her, and they were victims of violence. While she was not a victim of physical violence, but a victim of verbal and aggressiveness in the house. And she had to intervene to calm down the fights of their crazy parents when she was...
[26:43] Okay, so sorry, just to make sure I understand. So the mother plays the victim, and the father is verbally violent, but not physically violent.
[26:50] With her, not physically, with the other components, yes. Also physically.
[26:57] Okay. And so did he beat his children? And how did he beat his children? Hand, fist, implement, like object, spoon, canes?
[27:09] I'm not sure also with object, but surely very violently. Violently because my her her brother had to cover the signs to go to school and also also the the sister uh was uh even if she's a girl she was very uh punched very heavily like punched i don't know if it's punched or i don't know i don't know if there was also object involved but very very heavily for sure.
[27:43] Gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. How absolutely terrible. Absolutely terrible. And has he had any come-to-Jesus moments about realizing that he did a bad thing? Has he apologized? Has he admitted fault? Has he gone to anger management and therapy? Has he made restitution? Has he done any of the things that might improve the relationship?
[28:12] No, I think it was just, I don't know, we suppose it was more getting older and less strong and maybe, I don't know, some hormone going down. I don't know, he just changed without like changing his personality. He was always very like aggressive in terms of attitude, also verbally. But he just stopped using much violence, at least with my wife. Probably the violence kept going on with other persons, because if I remember correctly, still when the sister of my wife was on her 20s, they were still fighting with punching and slapping, if I remember correctly. So it was only towards my wife, let's say, that he didn't use physical violence.
[29:24] Okay. Okay. And her parents are still together, is that right?
[29:28] Yes. They hate each other, but they stay together. Yes.
[29:34] Well, they should. I mean, they should hate each other. I'm glad. Okay. So what are your perspectives on your in-laws? What are your thoughts on them?
[29:46] Yeah, I'm disgusted. And the issue that I was mentioning is that I still, like I'm not forced, of course, but I still need to deal with them. And I'm not sure how to manage the situation since my wife legitimately doesn't want to, like, consciously doesn't want to cut ties with them. And when we are at their place, I close myself into some shell because I don't feel like I can say whatever I want. But at the same time, I'm very discontent of the situation. I feel disgusted for them and how they behave with my wife.
[30:49] Okay and you said she has legitimate reasons for wanting to keep them in her life right.
[30:56] I don't know if legitimate was the right word um she decided.
[31:01] She said she justly doesn't want to break she said you said something like she justly doesn't want to break with her parents yes she doesn't like this right, okay so do you think that that is a good decision.
[31:13] No i don't think so but i i also understand that it's not easy emotionally and so she she already like confronted her her mother uh nothing changed, with her her father probably it's it's much harder now because he's um, like going through some sort of dementia let's say and also probably it's more scary to to confront I don't know but still she did she did she did something but she's not ready to to cut ties I'm not like completely agreeing with this and we discussed about it and I probably was pushy in this situation too as well probably too much uh too much like too pushy for probably to in this situation i was not saying directly that i wanted her to to do anything but uh indirectly i was uh trying to like point out that uh it was not good uh and yeah i don't think it's uh it's it's good but i i partially understand the emotions behind it.
[32:31] And what are her feelings uh about it why why why does she not want to do that.
[32:39] Um i think it is like, uh more like not not rational like she she feels like she cannot do it uh because it is her family and so she feels she feels bonded and maybe it's a matter of time maybe it's also a recent thing what what we like the like the awareness of it let's say and before that it was more like a normalized one even if it was not normal and uh i think it's more emotional than rational so i i don't have a rational argument for that.
[33:20] Okay. Okay. So, is her plan, what is her plan regarding her parents and your children?
[33:32] I told her that I don't want them to be involved in our children's, like, grow up, when they grow up, let's say, education. And she told me that she wants to keep them bare minimum formality, let's say. Like maybe seeing once every, not often, let's say we are physically not close. So probably the response to that is more, let's say, physical avoidance. Like uh like i don't know we moved away from from them um probably partially because of that i we were not fully aware of that but probably the the her response is more like avoiding the physical contact with them so uh like trying to see them uh as little as we as we can um but not cutting cutting tiles i don't know if i if i answered actually, Yeah.
[34:44] I think I understand. Okay. So what about your parents? How was your upbringing?
[34:50] Okay um i don't have a that many memories in of my of my childhood but the ones that i have uh are related more to um let's say my mother screaming and punishing me and my my dad's uh like.
[35:13] Emotional detachment, let's say. He was very focused on his life, his career. He's a bit monothematic, let's say. He was a footballer and a football coach. And he was very focused on that. He was talking always about that. And the only... Emotional support I got was in that field, because I was playing as well, even if not professionally. And the only positive guidance that I can remember was related to that field, let's say. And not only technically, but also, let's say, dealing with social situations inside the teams and bullies inside the team and this kind of stuff, but for the education side, it was more my mom on charge and she was authoritarian in my opinion. She was very focused on me and my brother getting good grades.
[36:31] She slapped us. Probably my brother got it worse in terms of physical violence. He's older than me. And they told me, expressively told me, as if it was something that I needed to thank them for, that my brother was punished more than me. But I remember hiding from her things, like I wanted to play video games, for example, instead of doing homework. And I remember I was scared that my mom could have discovered me, so I was trying to find out ways to do it. And i remember being in school and being afraid of being punished by the teacher and that the teacher maybe could have gone to my to my mom and and told her and so i was more like driven by fear in this in this field um at the beginning i was um.
[37:41] A bit uh like contrarian in some ways i don't know if it's for the influence of my grand grandfather because my grandfather was uh an influence in my life because he he spent a lot of time with me he made me learn a reading uh he played with me and this kind of stuff and he was uh like always fighting with my with my mother my mother was always screaming at him because he was late and and this kind of stuff and probably i i followed a little bit his path of being a little bit contrarian in some sort of ways for example in the football team like my my my family had a football team uh that they were supporting and screaming at the television and this kind of stuff that crazy stuff but i i was uh like saying from the beginning oh i don't want it's uh stupid uh or maybe i was supporting the opposing team because i wanted to be a little bit contrarian but then growing up i think my a lot of my personality was uh shaped by my my my by the approval of my father i think that that's what i what i think because uh my father was uh very like a teaser, like he was very critical towards people inside the family.
[39:07] And I realized that the typical critics that he was making about my brother, for example, especially, I reacted towards compliance, let's say. Like, for example, he was complaining...
[39:26] Behind my brother's back or maybe also directly that my brother was spending too much money. And so I grew up very tight on money. I was feeling guilty for every penny I was spending of my parents' money and this kind of stuff. He was criticizing my brother because he wanted to dress well and do his hair and this kind of stuff and I grew up very let's say.
[39:59] Not very caring about dresses and this kind of stuff so, I don't know, this is my supposition that some of my personality were shaped by my father's judgment and And also this tendency to critic, to be judgmental, of course, I remodeled it, I retook it, and I tend to be judgmental. I'm trying to improve this, but still my natural tendency is to be judgmental towards other people. Um i i had also some uh.
[40:52] Okay bro bro bro what are you doing these are talking do you feel like we're having a you're calling me do you feel like i'm having do you feel like we're having a conversation, or are you just talking? Like, you don't check in with me. You don't ask me if I'm understanding. You don't ask. I've told you a number of times that you're not responsive to my questions, right? And you're not, and I'm going to be direct to you, right? I mean, you're calling me for directness, right? But you're not checking in with me and saying, is this answering your question? Does this make sense? Do you have, like, you just talk. And I'm trying to figure that out. And it's not some big problem i'm just saying that it's an unusual situation to be in when someone calls me up for feedback and then just talks and talks and talks and doesn't ever check in whether what they're saying is helpful or useful or is responsive to what i'm asking.
[41:53] Yeah it makes sense.
[41:54] Do you get that sense like you just talked yeah probably.
[41:57] It's because I'm not sure it's because of that, but I prepared in advance what I wanted to tell you, and I'm going through a script more than I was not prepared. Like I was thinking what I should emphasize of my story about this. And probably I am going more through the script than asking for feedback and this kind of stuff. I'm sorry about that.
[42:30] Okay, but you don't need me for a script.
[42:32] Right?
[42:34] If you're just going to go through a script, you could just write a letter to yourself or that kind of stuff, right? So again I'm not mad or anything I just find it odd that, this would be our interaction.
[42:53] Yeah yeah you're right.
[42:55] I mean do you feel like when you're talking do you feel like we're connecting is there another person on the other end of the line whose feedback you're looking to get or what's your experience of talking in this kind of way.
[43:08] Hmm, maybe, yes maybe I'm too focused on how I look when I talk then the actual result of the call that should be, getting feedback from you?
[43:42] Well, I'm just, again, I'm just trying to sort of understand what's going on in the conversation. And again, I'm not saying with any sort of big critical thing, but it's a disconnecting conversation, if that makes sense.
[43:57] Yes.
[44:00] So I'm trying to figure that out. Okay so tell me a little bit about the verbal abuse you suffered as a child.
[44:14] Um then it was um mainly, maybe due to like things that i didn't do if i remember correctly like for example oh you didn't do your homework properly or you didn't, clean your room or this kind of stuff. So I was like feeling a little bit guilty about it and maybe growing up it was more, since I was like responding more it was more oh you're arrogant and you think you know better than us but we are uh your parents so we uh we are we have more experience and this kind of stuff.
[45:25] Okay so what would be said to you like the arrogant and and it was sort of insulting right Can you think of a specific example of, that occurred, so I can sort of get a sense of the interaction.
[45:43] So from my mum, something like, like taking it very personal, like, you always make a mess, you don't care about me and the fact that I'm tired or this kind of stuff, probably. From my father it was more the uh oh i'm your father you cannot talk about to me like this um, because i'm your father like more like i'm your father i know better than i know better than you when when we were when we were fighting this was the typical, typical phrase keeping typical sentence.
[46:31] Okay and how often would you have these kinds of conflicts with your parents as a child.
[46:39] As a child i think i don't remember exactly uh not exactly first i don't remember very well, probably it was more on the weekly or b weekly base no probably the screaming more on the weekly base and maybe the physical thing more on the b weekly like twice a month for something like this, and the other stuff with my father was more when i grew up so it was not very frequent because we didn't have much interaction actually communication was not very good.
[47:14] Okay, okay so a couple of times a week.
[47:34] Yes, I would say once or twice a week, but mainly for the first 10 years, probably, of my life. And then it went down because the interactions were less.
[47:54] Okay, got it. and what has been your experience of talking with your parents about problems you had as a kid.
[48:08] Okay um i talked with my with my mother mainly i i felt the urge of doing it with her because i i I was feeling annoyed by the fact that, or maybe this is not relevant. Anyway, my experience in talking with them is that I tried to bring up the thing that I thought were not good in my childhood and in general in our relationship. And when I talked to her, I talked to her like three or four times in lengthy conversations.
[48:59] She seemed to take responsibility of it, but I had some gut feeling that she was still giving herself excuses. Like she was referring to the fact that she was alone because she was saying that my father was not present and to the fact that in some periods of her life she was dealing with her mother's sickness. Because my grandmother, she was very attached to my grandmother and she died when I was little. So I had the impression that she was not really fully getting responsibility of that, but she was maybe trying to tell herself that she was doing so, but she was actually trying to take some excuses, let's say.
[50:04] And I had the confirmation about some of my doubts, at least, because she told to my brother that she had this conversation with me and she was, after the first one or the second one, and she was depicting me as like someone that had read some book and now understood everything about childhood and was going to, moralize about it, something like this. And then I confronted her about this and she admitted wrong, she told me, like she was using also like very self-denigratory terms, like I was a terrible mother and crying and this kind of stuff. But I didn't have the sense that she was actually understanding, let's say, or actually, I will say, taking responsibility of that fully at least.
[51:14] And how long ago did that happen?
[51:21] All these conversations, I think, were in the last year and a half. The first one, one year and a half ago, and then a couple of them in the following months. And then I moved away, and so we talked less, and we had a conversation about another confrontation in the summer. And then after the miscarriage, we had the last one, so in October.
[52:04] Okay so she hasn't really changed she's just got some self-pity she's claiming to be all knowledgeable now and she's not focusing on you.
[52:13] Yes she has changed but not in the way that we are referring to like yes it didn't it's the answer to you to your question yes she did she didn't change but she told me that she changed just because she went from being an authoritarian mother to being much more, let's say, tender, let's say, quote-unquote, in the manners in which she's talking with us, with me and my brother, and in which she's asking things. But of course, she has much less power on us. So I think it's expectable. But yes, for what But I can say she didn't really, really change because she's keeping doing the same behavior again, even if in a different manner.
[53:11] Right. Okay. So what has been the result of you having these conversations?
[53:17] The practical result, do you mean?
[53:21] Yeah. So you went in saying, I need some visibility, I need some understanding, I need some recognition of the wrongs that were done, and she doesn't provide that.
[53:29] Yes. right um i i at least uh finally got to the like uh conclusion like for myself that i i didn't want to hide my feelings anymore so i i told her that i wanted to be like sincere and not feeling guilty because i i was maybe annoyed by the fact that she was calling me or or texting me as if not nothing happened and so i started uh like expressing more of my feelings but as a as a result she she got, annoyed by it and i'm not sure that i'm not sure we are not texting anymore like or hearing each other but i'm not sure if she is like doing some uh i don't know passive aggressive stuff like like you you you need to call me if not i'm not calling you or if if she i don't know doesn't want to to call me or i'm not i'm not sure what is in her mind but at least i i i feel a little bit better even if emotionally still i still struggle uh not feeling entirely guilty let's say of not being present, even if I understand it's not, something that I have to do.
[54:58] Okay. Why do you think you have a tough time truly interacting in these kinds of conversations and inquiring? Like, about 20 minutes ago, I said that you don't inquire as to what you're saying makes sense or not, or is answering my question, and you still haven't done that. And again, I'm not trying to be a nag or a critic. I'm just saying that I expressed an issue with how we were communicating, and you have not responded to it. In a direct way. And again, I'm just sort of pointing that out, right? So if I say, listen, I really don't feel like we're having a conversation because I feel like you just talk and you're not checking in with me to see if it makes sense or is answering my question, and you still haven't done that, right?
[55:44] I think I try to adjust it by trying to focus on being more on point on what you were asking and waiting for your feedback.
[55:54] No, no, but that's not up to you. If somebody has a complaint about a communication style, right, who gets to choose whether that complaint has been addressed? It's very interesting. And I appreciate what we're talking about here. I really do. I'm not trying to nag or it's a very interesting thing. Okay. So I'm the one who gets to choose whether things have been sorted out, right?
[56:25] Yes.
[56:27] Not you. but you are doing it on your own. You are trying to decide, right, whether or not things have been addressed without checking with me. So who's that like?
[56:47] Yeah, my mother.
[56:50] Right. Right. So, what's the price of you accepting that your mother can just gaslight and it's a filibuster, right? So, what I'm experiencing from you is kind of like a filibuster. In other words, a whole bunch of stuff gets talked about, but nothing is actually getting solved. And your mother can decide whether you're satisfied. Uh no and you can decide whether i'm satisfied you don't even need to inquire right, so does this sort of make sense like.
[57:38] What is like the the parallelism sorry i didn't get it like um related to the my conversation with my mother like the fact that she.
[57:52] Um well she said a whole bunch of stuff without checking in with you and finding out if it if it addressed your issues it wasn't a conversation you brought up an issue and she just talked and talked and talked right um.
[58:03] Basically she listened and then probably she didn't yeah i understand what you're saying yeah probably she didn't.
[58:12] Okay let me let me ask you this were you emotionally satisfied with the conversations you've had with your mother about your childhood?
[58:22] Not entirely.
[58:26] Okay.
[58:27] I was satisfied by the fact...
[58:29] What percentage were you satisfied?
[58:31] I was satisfied by the fact that... Percentage? I don't know what percentage, but I was satisfied by the fact that finally I was expressing my feelings. But from her side, I was not satisfied. So I was not satisfied by what she was saying. That was how she was behaving.
[58:53] Okay, so did you tell her, hang on, did you tell her that you were not satisfied? Okay, and what happened?
[59:03] She told me, if I remember correctly, she told me something like, what do you want from me or what do we have to do? It's too difficult to satisfy your needs or something like this.
[59:19] Okay, so she kind of insulted you and said that your needs were too difficult and you had unfair or unrealistic standards or requests or something like that, right? Okay, so she didn't really listen, right? And she didn't respond to, right? She just went kind of rubber bones and said, Well, your requests, your demands are unfair and unjust, right? So she got aggressive when you said you weren't satisfied.
[59:47] Yes.
[59:57] So, you were not assertive with your mother, and I'm not trying to complain, or be negative about it, but you were not assertive with your mother.
[1:00:08] What do you think would be assertive, meaning that situation? Like um yeah um because when i when i also think of uh talking to to my father i sometimes say what's what's like what's the purpose i i i feel like it's useless because i i i already know what What is the response that I'm not getting what I want? And the only thing that I'm feeling is like, okay, maybe I can at least express my feelings. But on the practical term, I'm not sure what should I expect.
[1:01:06] Right.
[1:01:07] I'm not sure it made sense.
[1:01:09] Well, what should you expect from a productive conversation with someone you're upset with?
[1:01:18] I would expect some understanding and some opportunity to restore or repair what has been done. If we conclude that there is something negative about it. But I'm not hoping for it, actually, in my heart, I know it's too difficult to help them. I'm not sure it makes sense.
[1:01:56] Okay. So, is your understanding that you can't get any satisfaction with your parents and your complaints?
[1:02:07] Yes. Basically, yes.
[1:02:09] Okay. So then what is the point of the conversation? And I'm genuinely curious. Like, if they're not going to listen to you, then what's the point of the conversation? If they're just going to insult you for having unrealistic standards, then what is the point of the conversation?
[1:02:24] The conversation with them, do you mean? Yeah, my point with them, like with my mother, I had this conversation because.
[1:02:38] And she was like, treating me like, I was annoyed by the things that she said, even if they were not mean things. Like she was asking me just normal stuff and I was annoyed and I felt guilty about it because I felt like I was doing something wrong. Because she was just asking something and then i realized that maybe it was the comparison with the with my mom of the past that was um that was uh triggering me and so i i wanted to explain explain her why i was annoying and not the fact that i was um like a mean person like for for random reasons. So I wanted to clarify that and see her perspective on it. But yes, probably I was already expecting nothing on the practical side in my house. I don't know. I'm sorry if I'm not very clear here. I don't know. Does it make sense?
[1:04:02] Go ahead. You've got something else to say. Okay, so you have no hope for your parents and a connection with them and them taking any responsibility for the abuses they inflicted upon you. Horrible, horrible stuff, like calling you selfish and attacking your character and not allowing you to have a response and so on. Terrible stuff. Can we agree on that? Like you wouldn't want to do that to your kid, right? Okay. So your parents did some pretty terrible stuff, and you don't have any belief that they will ever take responsibility or genuinely apologize or go to therapy or go to anger management or whatever it would be to give you some satisfaction, right?
[1:04:43] Yes.
[1:04:46] Okay.
[1:04:47] Basically, yes.
[1:04:53] So why do you want unrepentant abusers in your life?
[1:04:58] And, I mean, I don't want them in my life, but I think that to not have them, I would still need to have this kind of conversation like clarifying like i i feel like i i owe not all but i um should give explanations and give the the chance to to to clarify things instead of just just, I don't know, leaving and not commenting, but I don't see how they can be an active part of my life in the medium term.
[1:06:11] Okay, I don't really know what that means. Active part of your life in the medium term. What is it? There's a short term where they can. There's a long term. What's the window? It doesn't make any sense what you're saying. It's not clear. Don't have any active part in your life. This is an example of a phrase that doesn't communicate anything.
[1:06:30] I mean, that's...
[1:06:34] So, do you mean in the short term they can?
[1:06:36] No, actually, at the moment, I don't have any active part.
[1:06:41] Okay, what do you mean by active part? I don't know what that means.
[1:06:46] Like meeting regularly, having lunch together, or dinner together, or this kind of stuff.
[1:06:58] Okay, how many times a month do you have any communication with your parents?
[1:07:06] In the last months with my mom not at all if not for the last conversation in October, and with my father he texts me once every couple of weeks to say how it's going and I answer and that's it.
[1:07:32] Okay so you have no functional.
[1:07:34] Relationship with.
[1:07:35] Your parents right i mean in that that you're you're they will initiate contact your father will but you haven't spoken to your mother since october is that right now do you mean last october do you mean in 2023.
[1:07:46] Or just like two months ago yes because we had a conversation about the, the miscarriage let's say and we had a discussion about the last confrontation was was in october, so but before that i was not hearing from her like three months or something like this from the last uh like last discussion that we had.
[1:08:18] Okay, so are you planning on having a relationship with your parents? Are you planning on reconnecting or having another conversation or anything like that? And again, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, because I don't know, but I'm just curious.
[1:08:31] Yes, I would like to have a conversation with my father to clarify some stuff. Like i i had in mind this maybe maybe now listening to your thing maybe if if i don't have any hope for that maybe i should i don't think about think more about it but my my instinct was uh that i i i should have a conversation with him about uh how i feel about our relationship and i was planning to do it soon, while for my mother actually i i i don't i don't plan to have a relationship at the moment like i don't have to i don't plan to have a relationship but i struggle yes i struggle emotionally, Okay.
[1:09:38] Got it. All right. So, when do you plan to have the conversation with your father?
[1:09:47] I'm going back next week, so I wanted to talk with him next week.
[1:09:57] Okay. Got it. All right. So, do you think that you are done with your mother?
[1:10:07] I i think there's there still be that there still will be some interaction like i i expect her to come back to me, but i don't see hope for for having a relationship with her so basically yes.
[1:10:33] Okay got it got it All right. Okay. And why, with your mother, in your mind, you're done with her, and if she were to contact you again, what do you think would happen?
[1:11:00] Uh i think, you would.
[1:11:12] No no what she would but.
[1:11:13] Okay maybe i would um, i i would i i think i would uh stick to my position but one thing that came to my mind, is that I still have some instinct to formal stuff. Like if I get to have a baby, I would feel guilty not sending her a message that a baby has come. I'm not sure if it makes sense or it's just some, I don't know.
[1:11:49] No, no, that's what you feel. No, I'm fine with that. You don't have to. Yeah, I'll tell you if it doesn't make sense. Trust me. Okay, so if you have a baby, you would still want to be in touch with your mother to tell her.
[1:11:59] Yes, but I don't want.
[1:12:01] Okay, and why? And again, I'm not criticizing. I'm just trying to understand what you're thinking.
[1:12:06] Because I would feel guilty not telling her.
[1:12:12] Yes, I understand that. But why would you feel guilty? I understand that it's guilt.
[1:12:16] Why?
[1:12:17] What's the thinking behind it?
[1:12:27] Probably because I imagine in my mind how in the past she behaved when she thought we did something to her, that we didn't involve her in some things, like, for example, in...
[1:12:49] No, but that's sorry. If she was mean or bad about not being involved in the past, that would be an extra reason to not involve her in the present. Right so help me understand again i mean you understand all of this you've been listening for a long time to what i do right so you must have some uh at least some understanding of of my approach to these things so saying i would want to be in touch with my mother because she would be, bad or aggressive or abusive if i wasn't in touch with her would be a damn good reason, to not be in touch with her right yes.
[1:13:30] You're you're right.
[1:13:32] Okay so so the reason so that the guilt thing comes from somewhere right and the guilt thing comes from a belief that your mother's upset is justified in some way or in some manner right like if you borrowed uh 500 euros from a friend of yours, and then you didn't pay him back, even though you could afford to, and you just dodged his calls or whatever, right? If all of that happened, you would feel guilty because you would be doing the wrong thing, right?
[1:14:03] Yes.
[1:14:03] Can we agree with that? So, with your mother, you would feel guilty because you would agree with something. Some complaint that she would have, you would agree with, right? So, for instance, there have been lots of people who have said online that I'm a bad guy, right? Like, I'm a really bad guy, a terrible guy, right? Mean guy, bad guy, whatever, right? Now i don't feel like a bad guy because i don't agree with their assessment does that make sense, okay so that's how i keep myself safe from that situation is i do not agree, with their assessment of me as a bad guy does that make sense okay so the reason why you would feel like a bad guy because guilt is an indication that you've done something wrong or bad right can we agree with that yeah.
[1:15:04] Yeah i agree.
[1:15:06] Okay okay so then the question is what is it that you agree with regards to your mother about that you not telling her you had a baby would be you being a bad guy like you have to agree with her at some level and to some degree in order to feel guilty does that make sense yeah.
[1:15:24] Probably probably i i i don't know how to explain this because it's some stupid because i i i.
[1:15:35] Okay don't judge it for god's sake stop telling me about what you're telling me about and just talk to me directly okay right because i'm i'm not i'm not going to get mad at you for talking to me directly i'm not going to get mad at you for annoying me or you understand i might get a little impatient if you don't listen to me repeatedly right um so what is it it is about your mother that you agree with regarding being a bad person for not telling her about the birth of a child.
[1:16:05] The first thing that comes to my mind is that it is a family obligation, but like some family obligation requires you to tell that it's such an important thing as having a baby, you need to tell it to your mother because your mother is your mother.
[1:16:31] Well, your mother is your mother is what they call it.
[1:16:33] Sure.
[1:16:34] Right?
[1:16:35] Yeah, I know. That's why I sound stupid, yeah.
[1:16:40] Okay, so family obligation, that's what you've got, right?
[1:16:45] Yeah, but I don't believe it's…, Well.
[1:16:50] You must believe something or you wouldn't feel guilty.
[1:16:53] Yeah, and then maybe it's not that. Maybe.
[1:16:57] No, no, maybe it is. So you're saying that family obligation is a really, really important thing, right? So tell me what you mean by family obligation. What is the definition of family obligation and how are you failing to meet it? So we have a standard called pay back your debts, right? That's a reasonable standard, right?
[1:17:21] Yes.
[1:17:23] So pay your debts. And so if you have a standard called it's good to pay your debts and you don't pay your debts, then clearly there's a standard that you're not meeting, right?
[1:17:35] Probably I'm still seeing as in some part of me, there is still this thing that I owe them something because they grew me up. But I know that this should be not the case because they decided to have me. I didn't have a choice in that. So, but I know that in the past I had this feeling of wanting to be as little as a burden as possible to them because I felt like they were doing me a favor. So maybe in some part of me there is still this feeling.
[1:18:24] Sorry, you just, you felt like they were doing you a favor?
[1:18:27] Yeah, when I was...
[1:18:30] Bro and i i understand i'm not asking you to explain more okay that's crazy man it's crazy for a listener of this show to say that they just they just felt this way about their parents, i just i just felt like i was no no they they they told you that you were a burden they told you repeatedly that you were a burden yeah.
[1:18:51] Yeah yeah you're right.
[1:18:54] They inflicted you being a burden on you. They told you, you're a burden. You're a pain in the ass. You're selfish. You're this, you're that, whatever, right?
[1:19:05] Yeah.
[1:19:05] Okay, so you didn't just have that feeling or have that thought. That was inflicted upon you. It's like saying you chose to learn Italian or Greek or whatever, the language that you have grown up with.
[1:19:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:19:20] It was inflicted upon you. So your parents sought to control you and bully you by telling you that you were a burden. I'm not sure if you agree or not, if I'm being unfair.
[1:19:41] No, no, I totally agree. I was not implying that my feeling was not given by them. I absolutely agree that it was their behavior that made me feel like that. Yes, I totally agree. And thanks.
[1:20:02] Okay, so they inflicted on you that you were a burden because they were parents. Okay, it's a sort of fundamental control thing, right? say that you're not necessary, you're not needed, you're a burden, and so on. Okay. So, is it a family obligation to make your children feel loved, wanted, and secure? Yes. Ah, good. Okay. Did your parents fulfill their family obligations regarding that?
[1:20:35] No, no, they didn't.
[1:20:37] Okay, so how the living fuck is a family obligation only landing on you, the victim, not on your parents, the perpetrators. Literally, it's like if you and I, I say, hey, I'll lend you a thousand euros, right? I lend you a thousand euros. Now, of course, if I lend you a thousand euros, you're going to pay me back, right? You say, yes, yes, Stef, I'm going to pay you back, right? And then I don't lend you a thousand euros. And then you say, I feel really guilty for not paying Stef back. Would that make any sense at all?
[1:21:09] No, no.
[1:21:11] You go to your wife and you say, I owe Stef a thousand euros. And she says, oh gosh, really? Why? I mean, when did he lend you the thousand euros? And he said, well, he never lent me the thousand euros in fact he stole a thousand euros from me but i feel guilty for not paying a thousand euros back to him and your wife would say what you're crazy, she would say wait not only did he not lend you the money but he stole from you and you feel obligated to pay him back he didn't lend anything to you in fact he stole from you yeah so if family obligations are a very big thing, who is more responsible for the fulfillment of family obligations?
[1:21:56] Yes.
[1:21:57] The parents?
[1:21:58] Them, of course.
[1:22:01] Right. Now, in terms of the family obligations, what would your parents say that they did that obligates you? What is their argument?
[1:22:17] Probably they had this very practical focus, like giving me money for only the economical support I would say, but it's not legitimate of course. Not a legitimate reason to be obliged towards them, sorry. But I think their argument...
[1:22:48] Okay, so they would say they paid some bills.
[1:22:51] Yes.
[1:22:53] Like they paid your bills.
[1:22:54] Probably, yes.
[1:22:57] Okay, is that an obligation that parents voluntarily take on by having children? Okay, are they lending money to their children by paying their bills? In other words, are children kind of like a bank that you deposit $200,000 into, and then you can withdraw that later?
[1:23:18] No, but probably they expect so. They expect probably support from children in their old age, or I don't know when, only because they did some economic support, like a bill that they did voluntarily. We didn't ask for anything, but probably in their mind, they expect it as it is a lending, like something that we will return in the future with other support and loyalty, let's say, quote unquote. I don't know.
[1:23:58] Okay, so you need to take care of their emotional preferences and financial needs when they get older. Is that the deal?
[1:24:10] What I suppose they think, they consciously or unconsciously think, I think it's that. Like probably what they communicated with their actions, I think.
[1:24:28] No, I get it. I get it. I get it. I understand. I understand.
[1:24:35] But your perspective is for sure, I totally agree, and it was very well stated. Probably It helps me reflect upon this and why I feel this guilt, even if it makes no sense.
[1:24:55] So, if I understand this correctly, parents spend money on their children, and then their children are supposed to spend money on the parents, right?
[1:25:04] Yes, money or loyalty, or I don't know what kind of personal relationships, like having to stay with them at least in some way. Not strictly economically.
[1:25:27] Right, right. Okay, got it. Got it. All right. And what is the argument for that?
[1:25:39] There is no logical argument. I don't agree at all, but I don't know why I still feel a part of it. I feel like I liberated a little bit myself from this kind of mechanism in some way, but still not fully. And I don't know why, because I totally agree with what you say. It's something that I, in a different way, but maybe in a less clear and sophisticated way, I thought myself. But still, I don't know why. I probably, as you said, I probably agree with them in some way, in some parts of my mind. I don't know. I don't know why. It's a mystery to me.
[1:26:39] Okay. And I understand the perspective. I understand the argument. Because, of course, in nice families, you hope that the children will want to help out the parents when the parents get older out of love, right?
[1:26:54] Ideally, yes.
[1:26:57] Now, would you say that the way you were parented made it easier for you to make money, to be assertive and ask for what you want and get what you need in a business environment? Would you say that the way that your parents raised you made it easier or harder for you to make money?
[1:27:16] Much harder I think.
[1:27:19] Okay, and why is that?
[1:27:20] Because I was totally unprepared towards the business world. No one prepared me about how to do business or this kind of stuff. And also, it is something that I would add to the obvious fact that i'm not uh i've not been uh skilled like uh trained to be to be um more more assertive and not feeling like uh guilty about this this kind of stuff can can can also damage me in the sense that i don't learn to negotiate uh properly in the business world and i don't know if it makes sense right.
[1:28:14] Okay it makes sense makes sense to me it makes sense to me okay.
[1:28:20] Also if i if i if i may add it didn't help me at all in the uh also in the dating uh because i had huge uh difficulties in in my dating life in my uh teenage years especially and so probably that's that's also So something that, yeah, for sure didn't help me be more happy and, I don't know, calm about my future and focus on my business opportunities and my revenues and this kind of stuff. So I totally get your point.
[1:29:06] Okay so if your parents harmed your ability to make money by being cruel right so if your parents harmed you and your ability to make money then they stole from you, right they stole future earnings because they were destructive or abusive that's.
[1:29:29] That's very useful insight. Thanks.
[1:29:36] Okay. So, if, your parents harmed your economic, abilities, then they cost you money. It's like sabotage, right? It's like saying that I owe someone money because they burnt down my store. Like, in other words, you've made money or you have a career, not because of or due to, but despite your parents' behavior.
[1:30:14] Yeah.
[1:30:15] That makes sense.
[1:30:16] Yeah, yeah.
[1:30:22] So, I don't see the obligation there.
[1:30:27] Yeah, you're totally right.
[1:30:34] I mean, it's made it tougher for you to be assertive and direct, right?
[1:30:38] Yeah, yeah. I had huge problems in being totally assertive. I always have had this tendency and still have now in some aspects to wanting to appease other people.
[1:31:01] Sure, sure and I really of course I really sympathize with that I really sympathize with that and so the reason why it's tough for you to be direct is that you were punished for it as a kid, that's why I was pointing it out fairly directly but not in a way that's harsher mean I hope anyway right which is yeah you can't, you can't be honest and direct and assertive with me or with your wife because you're afraid of being attacked.
[1:31:38] Yes.
[1:31:39] You can't ask people for their feedback on how they're experiencing the conversation because your parents would be unbelievably harsh and nasty about all of that.
[1:31:51] Yeah. Yeah, it feels it feels less accurate.
[1:32:04] I mean, it would be like saying to a torturer, hey, it really hurts when you do this. It really bothers and upsets me when you do this or that or the other, right? That would be unwise.
[1:32:18] Yeah, it would be counterproductive.
[1:32:21] And so you, and I don't mean to minimize the suffering that you went through as a child, but you answer these questions, like, I'm sure you had this when you were a kid, right? You hadn't done your homework. And the teacher would ask you for an answer, right? And, I mean, you'd see other kids do this too, right? That they would just make a bunch of noise, right? Right, they couldn't be direct and say, I didn't do the work. I find the work useless and pointless and stupid, right? And but they also couldn't um uh they they didn't have the answer so they would do a filibuster yeah i mean i remember when i was in i don't know how it works where you are but when i was in math class i almost never did any homework and so then the teacher would say occasionally that you'd be called on to to put the answer up on the board right and i would go up uh and and i would go onto the board i'd pick up the chalk i'd pretend to be looking at my notebook and i would write a bunch of stuff down and then i would say unfortunately this is as far as i got teacher.
[1:33:43] I don't know.
[1:33:46] That was a i couldn't be honest and say my house is too violent and chaotic for me to do homework Plus, and also, I don't care about math. Right? I couldn't be honest, right?
[1:34:00] Yeah.
[1:34:02] So I had to do the filibuster. I had to just make some noise and pretend and so on. Right? Now, of course, I'm sure the teachers knew everything that was going on. And, you know, they were frustrated because they knew I was smart. And some of them took it personally, you know, which I guess they should have. Right? But my point is that the filibuster is when you can't be honest and direct because you're going to get punished. And if you still have that habit, it's because you're still afraid of being punished and attacked.
[1:34:49] Yes.
[1:34:52] And but the funny thing is of course it so when you go on these long windy uh talks you're trying to cause the other person to dissociate so that you don't have to be direct now with abusive people if you do that kind of stuff they may get annoyed but they also view it positively because it is a mark of surrender. But people who are not that way will get annoyed, if that makes sense. Because it's like, we're not having a conversation. So it might be considered a mark of submission to abusive people, and maybe they'd be okay with it. But people who are not that way, they don't like being treated like they're abusers. So in the way that you were responding to me, you were going all over the map and you weren't being direct and you weren't checking in with me and you weren't trying to figure out if what you were saying made sense to me. You were just talking and talking. In other words, you were treating me as if I was an abuser and you couldn't just be direct with me. You couldn't show fault. You couldn't show flaw. And this is also marked in the over-preparation that you had. So you can't prepare for these conversations. Do you know why?
[1:36:15] Because they should be spontaneous.
[1:36:19] Well, that's just it. Because you don't know what the problem is. If you knew what the problem is, you wouldn't need to call.
[1:36:24] Yeah.
[1:36:26] Right? So the conversations, this is why people keep listening to them, they're unpredictable. And they're unpredictable because if you knew what the issue was, you wouldn't need to call. So you're calling because you don't know what the issue is so the level of preparation, and filibustering that was occurring was as if i were an abusive person who was going to be mean to you if you got wrong anything wrong at all.
[1:36:51] Yeah yeah yeah.
[1:36:53] I i.
[1:36:54] Can relate to this feeling i looking back i maybe i not maybe i i was like feeling as if it was an exam or something like this.
[1:37:06] Right right so in other words you couldn't just sort of be spontaneous and honest and direct you needed to be highly prepared and, You had to put on this filibustering so that you couldn't be criticized for anything in particular. In other words, you had to produce a lot of language that was kind of vague and defensive.
[1:37:35] Right? It makes a lot of sense, and it's very insightful.
[1:37:43] So, and I say this with sympathy, right? It's not a criticism. Yes. That's why you're calling, right? And I may have let it go on a little bit too long, but I did want to give you every opportunity to maybe say, oh, gosh, you know, here's something that I've gone on a bit too long, or I'm not sure if I'm making any sense, or is this answering your question? Or if you were to notice that you had disassociated and were just talking.
[1:38:10] Yeah, I'm sorry for that.
[1:38:11] I was curious about that. No, no, and I appreciate that. Honestly, you don't have to apologize. guys. I mean, this is why we're talking, right?
[1:38:19] Yeah.
[1:38:21] So, if you treat me like I'm a mean guy, that you have to kind of, filibuster and be vague and so on. So, with abusive people, you have to give vague answers. Do you know why?
[1:38:41] You have to give evasive answers, because if you tell them the exact feelings you have, you get punished.
[1:38:53] They'll attack you, right? Any directness. Or they will get you on something. So if your parents say, where's the flashlight, right? Now, if you remember taking the flashlight out into the woods a couple of weeks ago, will you say that?
[1:39:19] No, because I get punished. if i tell them probably will say i don't know.
[1:39:25] Right so yeah absolutely you will not say that you will not say oh yeah i think i last had it and i think i took it out to the woods a couple of weeks ago because then what will your parents say.
[1:39:35] You're you're i don't know stupid because you forgot it in the woods or something like this it's your fault.
[1:39:41] Right you're gonna get hammered right, so what do you say i don't know now you can't say i didn't i i've i didn't even know we had a flashlight i've never seen this alleged flashlight like you can't say anything like that.
[1:40:01] Maybe i don't know just be evasive or maybe.
[1:40:05] Yes you see yes i do remember we had the flashlight when did you last see it oh gosh i don't know i mean i suppose i saw it some months ago in some drawer and uh i remember this because i had just come back from soccer practice like you're just gonna even though you know you took it into the woods a couple of weeks ago and you probably left it in the woods right you can't say that you've got to just filibuster, mm-hmm yeah, Because if you say to your parents, oh yeah, no, I took it out into the woods, you know, come to think of it, I probably left it there. I'm really sorry, right? They won't be reasonable about it. They won't say, okay, well, you know, that wasn't the brightest thing to do, but it's just a flashlight, right? Just try to be more careful or whatever, right? And of course, people who are abusive pretend that you are the only one who has fault. Or makes mistakes. Right? So my daughter, like all children, has lost things, right? Now, has she ever seen me come back to the car three times because I forgot a baseball cap? I forgot the car keys. I forgot my wallet. Has she ever seen me look for things that I have lost?
[1:41:31] Probably, yes.
[1:41:34] Well, of course she has. because human beings lose things yeah right i mean your parents doubtless got mad at you losing things but i'm sure you probably have seen maybe because it was uh you were older but you know you probably if your parents have cell phones how many times how many times a week do i say to my wife oh could you call my cell phone i don't know where it is right yeah, so of course how could i possibly get enraged at my daughter or mad at my daughter for, losing things when i also lose things yeah you cannot, well it would just be it's ridiculously hypocritical right so your parents of course called you what would they say selfish yeah arrogant selfish.
[1:42:31] This kind of stuff.
[1:42:32] Okay so they would they would call you selfish because you did things without taking their feelings into account that would be that you only think of yourself and and you're selfish right however by calling you selfish they were only taking their own feelings into account and disregarding your feelings yeah yes does that make sense, So they were projecting. They were accusing you of what they themselves were actually doing, or they were blaming you for something they themselves. To call a child selfish is incredibly selfish on the part of the parent.
[1:43:11] Yeah, I agree.
[1:43:13] Because selfishness is when you indulge your own feelings at the expense of other people, and indulging their own feelings of anger at the expense of your mental health and self-esteem is incredibly selfish.
[1:43:24] Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. and actually this behavior of criticizing has created uh of course this kind of issues uh with me but also my brother is uh like struggling a lot he became a workaholic because uh i don't know you you i don't know this is my this is my impression uh it's my thinking uh that that's he was criticized so much that he found in the working environment something that he could um i don't know since he he felt like he could regain like this uh self-confidence and he he um he i don't know he dedicated all his life to to work because there he could be like a good a good worker and and and he wanted to to to get back this uh this self-confidence that that he he lost from from the critics and and harshness of my parents i don't know if it makes sense i don't want to i don't want to to go deep into it no.
[1:44:40] No you're looking for empirical examples.
[1:44:43] To support my theory i'm not going to you were that.
[1:44:46] Right? I mean, that's helpful to me. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that is, that is why you're abstract and vague, because to be direct is terrifying. Does that make sense.
[1:45:01] Yeah yeah totally makes me reflect a lot about about my uh the pressure that i i feel in some situation as it was at the beginning of uh of this call and i don't it's not fair to project the abuser in people that are not abusers, because I will let good people escape in this way. So that's not good.
[1:45:37] Well, I mean, it's not let. I mean, you have, like all of us, right, you have a survival mechanism which worked and was essential in the past, right, and does not work now. If that makes sense.
[1:45:59] Yeah. Because it's a different kind of society, do you mean? Like, that we can… Okay, that's really… that we can detach from our parents while in the past we couldn't.
[1:46:14] Well, yeah, I mean, so, and also you don't want to reproduce that.
[1:46:17] Yeah, true.
[1:46:17] Right? Okay, so let's say that you have a son and, you know, fingers crossed, I'm sure you guys will make it. Let's say that you have a son and for some reason your father babysits him for the day or takes him out for the day and you come back and your son is bawling in tears and you say, why? And he says, well, you know, Granddad said terrible mean things to me. He called me selfish. He called me a loser. And he threatened me. And so on, right? What would your response be?
[1:46:50] I would be very angry at him. My father, of course. And I would not ever leave him again to my father. And of course, I would ask for explanations and I don't know, I would for sure try to first to consolidate my child and deny these terrible things that my father told him, and get angry at him for a second.
[1:47:33] And what would you say to your father.
[1:47:36] I i would probably, okay i would probably ask uh what was like why did did he do it um and, and that this was not.
[1:47:57] Okay, so what would be, what would the answer be that would satisfy you as to why he did it?
[1:48:05] No, no, there is no answer.
[1:48:06] Is there any answer that he could give as to why he called your son a selfish loser and threatened him? Is there any answer that would be satisfying? So why the fuck would you ask? What are you looking for?
[1:48:19] No, no.
[1:48:21] What explanation could there be?
[1:48:22] No, you're right.
[1:48:25] I mean, to take a completely extreme example, if you had a daughter and she got raped, would you ask the rapist, well, why did you do that?
[1:48:32] Of course not.
[1:48:34] Right? Okay, so what would you say to your father?
[1:48:40] I don't, I will never see you again. I will never let you see the son again. Something like this?
[1:48:53] Well, yeah. I mean, there would be nothing to say. Right? I mean, you might say that or you might just say, yeah, thanks a lot. And then just he leaves and you just don't respond. Like whatever, whatever would be the safest and easiest way to create those boundaries, right? But would he be welcome in your son's life again?
[1:49:10] No, of course not.
[1:49:12] So why is he in yours? He did that to you, not just once, but hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. So why would he not be in your son's life but he is in yours? Why would you protect your son but not yourself? Or to put it another way, how do you think you can protect your son without protecting yourself?
[1:49:40] Yes. It's definitely a, Yeah, you're right. I've not taken that responsibility yet. I was not enough assertive to do that yet.
[1:50:13] You don't tell me your exact age but what sort of decade and part of decade are you in 20s 30s.
[1:50:20] 30s like early 30s.
[1:50:24] Early 30s okay so your father has been an unrepentant aggressor against you for 30 years plus yes okay does he show any sign of changing no.
[1:50:42] She he just got to like him very uh how do you say um very like uh as if uh he's um now more more caring about about me and more uh i don't know weak uh just because.
[1:51:05] Yeah he's become nicer because he's lost power Okay.
[1:51:12] Not to repent, like he didn't show signs of any faults, like he didn't.
[1:51:20] No, but that's like having a cop who harasses you your whole life, tries to get you thrown in prison, gets you thrown in prison, harasses you, right? And then he retires, and you're like, well, you know, he's nicer now. It's like, well, he just doesn't have the power anymore. Yeah. And that's even worse. Even worse. Because it means that he knew the whole time how to be nice. He knew the whole time because he's doing it now, right?
[1:52:00] Yes.
[1:52:04] So that means that he had the choice to be as nice as he is now all the time that you were young.
[1:52:16] Does that make sense? Sure, but it's the same thing that I think of. My mother, she became nicer and she told me it was a virtue that she changed and she became nicer. But I asked her why. If you became nicer, it means that you understood your wrongdoing in the past. So why didn't you come to me and ask me what was the effects of this wrongdoing but what was the uh like if if i was okay with you being nicer but still in my life because of your wrongdoing so i it was not credible in my my opinion also it was worse as you said because and.
[1:53:01] It happened in when you were 30.
[1:53:03] Yeah yeah so.
[1:53:05] What's the point then to haven't been parents for 12 years We'll see you next time.
[1:53:14] Yeah, the point, of course, is because they lost power and they want to raise pity in me and my brother, I think. But, of course.
[1:53:26] Well, I mean, my God, if I stole from my employer 12 years ago and he went into bankruptcy and I call him up and say, you know, I have a newfound respect for property rights, does he give me my job back?
[1:53:42] No, of course.
[1:53:45] What does it matter?
[1:53:48] Nothing.
[1:53:49] What does it matter? It's too late. It's too late. They're not doing it because of you. It's just another strategy. Right? Like the guy who's got a gun on you, and then you wrestle the gun away from him, and he's like, hey, we need to reason this out. He hasn't just suddenly discovered the joys of sweet reason, has he?
[1:54:14] Yeah sure.
[1:54:17] You just you have the gun now right, nothing's changed don't be fooled, don't be fooled, your wife's parents were not just verbally abusive but violent.
[1:54:45] Right yeah the father was extremely violent and also in public maybe not in public with the physical violence but with, verbal abuse in public and yeah very, excessive, right So.
[1:55:27] What would he be doing around your kids this remember early you said well my wife is not ready to not see her parents or like she's not doesn't feel comfortable with it it's not the right thing for her it may not be appropriate like you were saying that kind of stuff right sorry i can't remember the exact phrase she feels she.
[1:55:43] Cannot emotionally do it she wants to avoid their presence by keeping distance physical distance instead of confronting them and telling them the truth or maybe telling them to stop texting or whatever or calling or seeing.
[1:56:04] Right. So you see, it is not up to her whether she sees her parents or not.
[1:56:16] Mm-hmm.
[1:56:19] What are the standards by which she makes that decision?
[1:56:26] I think it's a similar attitude than mine, like this family obligation that we have instinctively, but it doesn't make any sense. And that in some way we probably feel that was inculcated in us by our parents, but we still cannot free ourselves from, I don't know.
[1:56:59] Okay, did you feel yourself going off into chat land there?
[1:57:03] Yeah, sorry.
[1:57:06] No, that's fine. That's fine. Okay. So, what is the standard by which she determines whether she sees her parents or not? Is it her own personal preferences alone?
[1:57:23] No, it's the preference of the parents, of course.
[1:57:30] It's the preference of her parents?
[1:57:31] Yeah, she's...
[1:57:35] No, but what should she use as her standard, as to whether she sees her parents or not?
[1:57:43] She should use her own standards and our future children's standards. Like, what's best for them?
[1:57:52] There's one person missing from that equation.
[1:57:54] And me?
[1:57:56] You! How long have you been married, my friend?
[1:58:03] Seven months.
[1:58:06] Okay. How long have you been going out?
[1:58:08] Almost six years. Yes.
[1:58:13] Wow. I know.
[1:58:14] I know.
[1:58:14] So long.
[1:58:19] Yeah.
[1:58:21] Sorry.
[1:58:22] Yeah. I was an MC. An MC. I was not.
[1:58:30] Oh, okay. Okay. Got it. All right. That's fine. Yeah, we talked about that at the beginning. All right. Got it. All right. When you get married, you never make a decision on your own ever again. You become one flesh. Do you ever eat and say Well, I want the food to go to my right arm Not my left arm Yeah, That wouldn't make much sense, right? Right, You eat for your whole body, right? It's kind of like with exercise There's very little thing as spot removal, right? Like you just have to exercise And hope for the best, right? So So, what is the decision by which she decides whether to see her parents or not?
[1:59:45] We discussed it. She, of course, takes into consideration my feelings, but she told me that in this specific area, she didn't feel at all ready emotionally to live them out of her life. And she told me if I could accept the fact that she would have avoided as much as she could their physical presence without keeping the appearance of having a relationship. And I probably wasn't enough assertive or maybe I don't know I didn't know what to what to do with that because I saw her feeling very strongly about it I tried to reason with her about the rationale behind that but also since I have similar issues maybe that's why I I.
[2:00:52] Say accepted it or maybe went along with it, and yeah that was the discussion I don't know if you asked I understood that you asked how did she decide about this maybe, did I get it correctly.
[2:01:17] I think a little bit so I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying. Is it good for your marriage to be weak and submissive in the face of abusers? Okay. Is there anything more important than what is good for your marriage?
[2:01:51] No.
[2:01:52] And maybe there is, right? Obviously, I'm not trying to lead you in some trap here. I'm not trying to trap you. Is there something that is more important?
[2:02:01] No, for me, there is nothing. Of course, for sure, not the appearance of a relationship with relatives.
[2:02:11] Right. Okay. So if there's nothing more important than what is good for your marriage, then that's how you make your decisions. Not your strong feelings, not the past, not history. I mean, do you want to live in a society as a whole where people make their decisions based upon emotions or morals?
[2:02:48] Yeah, morals.
[2:02:51] Of course, because you can't have a society at all if people make decisions based on emotions, because then they say, well, I'm hungry, I'm just going to grab some food. You know i really like that shiny object in the window i'm just going to steal it right sure i mean you can't have a society right so you want to make decisions based upon principles right, and the principle of loyalty to virtue is it good for your soul to appease evildoers absolutely not that you don't have to well i mean if you were kidnapped i'd say appease the evildoers right, but is it good for your soul to appease evildoers that you don't have to? Or is that a mark of cowardice? And I'm not calling you cowards, I'm just saying is that a mark of cowardice? Okay. Is being not super brave, to put it as nicely as possible, is being not super brave good for your wife's admiration for you and good for your admiration for your wife? Do you admire her and look up to her when she appeases her parents out of fear? You might have sympathy, but do you consider it admirable and morally strong, courageous?
[2:04:04] No, I just have sympathy, so I don't consider it bravi.
[2:04:08] Well, no, you also would have some disrespect. And I know you love your wife, and I'm not saying your wife is not worthy of respect, but that particular behavior of appeasing evildoers when you don't have to, is not something that you would respect, right? Would you respect a policeman who refused to... Arrest somebody who was beating up children because he was nervous about somebody being up yeah.
[2:04:41] Of course i wouldn't respect him.
[2:04:43] Right so i mean i i try to treat women of course as as as men, and if someone could oppose an evildoer with no physical danger to themselves but refuse to do so because they were just scared, we would not admire that behavior, right? So the problem is that you are threatening your wife's admiration for you and your admiration for your wife by appeasing evildoers when you don't actually have them.
[2:05:16] Yes, yes.
[2:05:20] Now, when you have a child, let us say you have a fine-strapping Viking son, when you have a child and your child sees you appeasing evildoers, when you don't have to, will your child admire that behavior in you?
[2:05:37] No, of course not.
[2:05:40] Of course not, right? So if you have people around your child, and at some point your child will find out that these people have been terrible and horrible and abusive and vicious and have not changed and have only changed in terms of manipulation to get what they want at your expense, right?
[2:06:00] Yeah, yeah, totally, we got it.
[2:06:02] You see, if your mother really cared about you and she was unable to change her bullying and dominant nature, she would say, you cannot let me around your son. You cannot let me be around your son. Why would she say that?
[2:06:21] Because she understands that if she's a bully, until she is able to repair this trait of her, she's endangering the baby. She's endangering his well-being.
[2:06:39] And how is she?
[2:06:41] By being a bully with him or by treating him not in a good way. Or maybe if she treats him in a very good way, she's like gaslighting me in some way.
[2:06:59] Yeah, it's harmful for you, right? So, she would say, listen, you need to have your son's respect, and I can't stop bullying you or being dominant, so I really, you know, like somebody who's just recovering from alcoholism will say, I can't be around alcohol, like it's, I'm like, I can't, right?
[2:07:18] Yeah.
[2:07:19] And if she really cared, if your mother really cared for you, and she knew that she was unable, as she is, unable to solve her bullying tendencies or her manipulation tendencies, she would say to you, no, can't be around, I'm so sorry. Don't even tell me you have a kid because I'm going to come in there, throw my weight around and I'm going to harm your bond with your son.
[2:07:42] Yeah.
[2:07:44] Is she doing that saying that? No. So it's still all about her. So. Who's going to protect you? You and you. You have to protect yourself. you have to protect your son your daughter you have to protect your wife.
[2:08:06] Yeah I have to.
[2:08:09] Your wife is not going to overcome her fear of her parents through appeasement, And if she can't overcome her fear of her parents, you are, and your family is, forever susceptible to people who act like your parents. I don't know if you've seen those crazy Japanese game shows where people have to contort themselves into particular shapes. And there's this hole coming at them on a big cardboard cutout. It's like a cardboard cutout. They have to assume that shape. so if you have a shape that allows bullies to get into your lives because you appease them, you might be able to stay away from your parents but you have a bully shaped hole in your wall that every bully can get through because anybody who acts like your parents will elicit the same response, you don't you it's going to show up at work it's going to show up in in some local karen it's going to show up in in some homeowners association thing it's going to show up somewhere, yep because if you are out there in the world radiating we appease bullies we give bullies what they want yeah then you're just like in a bad neighborhood, with a big clear backpack full of money yeah makes sense.
[2:09:36] And you will also cause your son in particular but also your daughter she will conform to the bullies not to you because children are always drawn to the most powerful thing in the environment, and if your parents or your in-laws are the most powerful thing around and this can be just based upon a call once a week, and they'll see that you get all kind of shamed and red-faced and tense and nervous and upset and they'll be like wow whoever's on the other end of that phone they They have the real power, man. I gotta be like them. I mean, you were a boy. I was a boy. What did we like? Big, giant trains, the T-Rex, you know, big trucks, you know, things that have power. That's what we like.
[2:10:26] Yeah, I became sort of like my father in some aspects because of that, I think. I can understand.
[2:10:33] Right. Sure. Yeah. Right. So you have to be a moral authority to your children. And you cannot be a moral authority to your children if you are appeasing evildoers that you don't have to, you know let's say some cop pulls you over and you weren't even speeding, well you don't just drive off and say i don't like let's say he's the cop is doing something unjust well you yes officer here's my driver like you know what happened and you know if there's an issue you'll fight it in court or whatever right but you don't that you have to comply with that right, You don't have to comply with your parents.
[2:11:14] Yeah.
[2:11:16] And how are you going to have a standard of good behavior for your children if you don't have a standard of good behavior for your parents? If your son starts to become verbally abusive or aggressive, are you going to say, that's unacceptable? What's your son going to say? You accept it all the time. You worship it. You praise it. You kneel before it. Who are you to tell me it's unacceptable? You accept it. So then your son will realize that you saying something is unacceptable is not because you have any principles, but only because you have power over him. Because where you don't feel like you have power with regard to your parents or your in-laws you can let them get away with murder so you'll have no moral authority with your children.
[2:12:23] And they'll look at you as a bully. Oh, look at you, Mr. Tough Guy, saying that verbal aggression is unacceptable to your kids just because you're five times the size, but you're scared of your parents. They were verbally abusive. They're still welcome. They still call up. They're still part of our lives. Oh, well, but it's distant. It doesn't matter. It's still a principle. Right? Saying that, well, I only chat with my parents once a month is like saying, well, I only steal once a month. So I can totally enforce property rights with my kids, tell them not to steal because I only steal once a month. It's not the best argument.
[2:13:04] Doesn't make sense. Yeah. Completely.
[2:13:11] The world would be a lot better if people stopped appeasing evildoers. Can we agree with that?
[2:13:19] Yeah. Totally.
[2:13:23] Now, the way that you improve parenting, not just for yourself, but in society as a whole, so why did your parents feel free to treat you like crap and your wife, even worse, I would argue? Why did your parents feel free to do that? Because they truly believed and had a lot of evidence that they could treat you all like crap and they would not pay for it.
[2:13:44] Yes.
[2:13:45] They would still get access to your time, energy, and resources when they get old. They'd still get to see their grandkids. They'd still, if they said, we're coming over for Christmas, you'd be like, okay, right? So they could treat you like crap and get away with it. Parental appeasement is like the getaway driver for a bank robbery. The guy is not going to rob the bank if there's no getaway driver. So you and your wife appeasing evildoers is guaranteeing that society continues to treat parents of children badly. There's no consequences.
[2:14:30] Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think you're right. I just struck because I brought similar arguments to my wife, let's say, because I listened to your shows and read your peaceful parenting book. Sometimes i i have uh i don't know i i feel a little bit um, impotent but i what while on my side i i i see it as more a matter of maybe i a matter of time i need i need a little i need i need some time but i will i will your.
[2:15:22] Wife is pregnant.
[2:15:23] Yeah yeah yeah of course you're.
[2:15:25] In your 30s you've known her for six years what more time do.
[2:15:29] You want are you gonna do it before before my kid is is born i was i was i will i will well.
[2:15:39] No hang on hang on hang on your wife is pregnant which means she probably shouldn't go through a whole bunch of stressors when she's pregnant.
[2:15:50] Yep, yep, you're right.
[2:15:52] I'm no doctor.
[2:15:54] No, no, no, you're right.
[2:15:55] Don't take any medical advice from me, but I would say it probably isn't super great for the baby for your wife to have some big confrontation with her parents. Now or when she's breastfeeding.
[2:16:06] You're right.
[2:16:09] So that's all right. You know, maybe it left it a little late, but that's all right. I mean, I guess you're still younger than I am when I did it. So whatever, right? I'm not going to crab at you about that, right? But the question you have, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong about this. The question, we can just finish up on this part. I think the question that you have, my friend, is, well, hang on. I keep making all these arguments to my wife, but she just doesn't agree with me, and she's just doing it her way. So what authority do I have? Is it something like that?
[2:16:41] Yeah, yeah. Something like that. let's say i i will say that she she uh told her mother how she felt about it but, like not not going through all the way let's say but like we we did some improvements but not not not totally so okay.
[2:17:02] No no you feel the best.
[2:17:03] Okay let's say it was what you said so.
[2:17:07] No no i don't want to say let's say because you've said well i make all these arguments to my wife but she's just very emotional and she won't do.
[2:17:14] It.
[2:17:14] Is that right? Okay, so what option do you have other than making arguments? Let's say that your kid is born, your son is born, and she wants to go and see her parents. I'm not saying this would happen, but let's say something like that, right?
[2:17:35] I can.
[2:17:37] Now, you say, I don't think that's a good idea. She says, no, they want to see, they're coming over, or we're going to go see them. I understand your arguments, but I feel very strongly. I've figured the strengths, obligation. Let's say she just does all of that, right? What are your options?
[2:17:50] Setting some standards, I don't know.
[2:17:55] That's very abstract yeah setting some standards so what can you do, in that situation your wife is not listening to reason which you know happens right lord knows nobody's perfect that way and certainly not me right so your wife is not listening to reason and she wants to have her parents over even though they are unrepentant child abusers saying.
[2:18:18] I don't want them in our house?
[2:18:22] No, no. So you've gone through all of that. You've gone through all of that. And she still wants to have them come over.
[2:18:31] I don't know what I will do.
[2:18:33] The solution is honesty. So if I were in your shoes, I would say, honey, that's great. You know what? Please have them come over because I really have some things to talk about with regards to your childhood with them. I don't think they should come over, right? They're unrepentant child abusers. But if you want to have them come over, that's fine. But I am going to confront them about what they did to you as a kid and what they did in particular to your siblings. They didn't beat you, but they beat your siblings. Does that make sense?
[2:19:16] Yes, I...
[2:19:18] You do not require your wife's participation or permission to be honest with people.
[2:19:24] Yeah.
[2:19:26] And now she's going to say, well, you can't do that. I'm like, if they're here, I'm doing that. And if you go over, I'm coming over and doing it too. Because if you just keep appeasing, the bad guys keep winning. And you have to rescue your wife, even from her own fears. Which means you have to be morally heroic. Which is you go over and you say, listen, guys, you're child beaters, and you in particular, the husband guy, like you were super violent, and I don't think there's been any reckoning. I don't think you've ever gone to therapy or anger management or begged for apologies. Like, this is terrible. I really, I said to my wife, I don't want to have anything to do with you guys. She obviously feels nervous and scared and she's over here, but we got to talk about this stuff because I don't want this around my kid. I don't want all of this unresolved violence and tension and abuse and unrepentant nasty stuff. I don't want that around my kid. I don't want that around my wife. I don't want that around myself. So let's work it out. Let's talk about it or something like that. Now they might hit the roof and start yelling and screaming and throwing things. Okay, then you just get out. And then if she says, I want to go back, say, okay, we'll go back and have the conversation again.
[2:20:51] But you don't let appeasing happen under your watch. Does that make sense? Now, that's alarming. I understand that. That can be alarming. But you've chosen to get married. You've chosen to get married and you've chosen to become a father, which means you have to protect your wife and your children.
[2:21:14] I had a conversation with her mom about this. I confronted her. But I don't feel I probably was enough, I don't know, assertive or whatever.
[2:21:32] Well, if the dad's around, you say, hey, Mr. Tough Guy, you're pretty good at beating up kids. So let's have a conversation man to man. You're a big tough guy around children. You beat up children, right? But, you know, let's have a conversation about what a tough guy you are. I'm here, right? I'm obviously bothering you. Why aren't you taking a swing at me? Why aren't you beating me on that, Mr. Tough Guy? Oh, is it because I'm not a little kid? Like, you only beat up little kids because you're such a fucking tough guy? I'm not necessarily saying you'd swear at him, but I can't feel, I can't even tell you the level of contempt I have for people who assault children. I mean, come on. That's vile. Absolutely vile. Absolutely it is come on man it is it has to be unacceptable in your world for grown-ass men to assault children it is and for the women who enable it and deliver those children unto those abusers yes it is and keep them in the household and.
[2:22:33] Also like feeling like making them feel guilty because they want to maybe leave the household, and so keeping them very close to the beast.
[2:22:45] Yeah, then they switch from physical violence to emotional abuse and manipulation. So it's vile. It's vile. Why would you want to spend time around these people? Why would that even be on the table?
[2:22:59] No, I don't. I actually feel very... Repulsed by this.
[2:23:10] Right. And she should feel repulsed by your parents. Because you can't love someone and also love the people who did it in the most part.
[2:23:18] Yeah, she feels repulsed too.
[2:23:22] Okay, so then you guys have to help each other. She has to give you strength with regards to your parents. You have to give her strength with regards to her parents so that you can fall even more in love with each other through moral courage and create a truly protected environment, a truly safe environment for your children. And I'm telling you, you do this, your careers will take off, your income will take off, your confidence will take off. You've got to face down your biggest fears, right, in order to fully grow and live as an adult. Does that make sense?
[2:23:53] Great advice. Thanks.
[2:23:56] All right. We had a nice cozy two hours and change, two and a half hours. Is there anything else you wanted to mention thank.
[2:24:02] You very much for for your time uh and sorry for being vague and uh.
[2:24:09] No no what did i say about that okay do you remember when it come on no i i listen i listen to me did i say you had anything to apologize for i.
[2:24:18] Listen but yeah okay.
[2:24:20] No don't apologize no don't apologize you did nothing wrong and i i appreciate the directness of the conversation i really do and i i respect you for hanging in there and and getting to to where we've gotten to it's it's extremely admirable and i'm not sure i could have done it at your age i'm just getting getting up there all right will you keep me posted about how things are going thank.
[2:24:40] You very much again.
[2:24:41] Thanks man if uh if your wife speaks english i'm happy to chat with her if it will help and i hope that you thank you very much thank.
[2:24:48] You very much i will bye.
[2:24:49] You're welcome brother all the best bye.
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