0:00 - Initial Concerns
4:22 - Family Stressors
4:46 - Relationship History
8:28 - Discovering Childhood Secrets
9:46 - Personal Childhood Reflections
12:08 - Parental Relationships
17:25 - Confrontation Challenges
21:13 - Patterns of Behavior
30:21 - The Impact of Fear
32:16 - Realizations About Motherhood
42:48 - Expectations vs. Reality
53:29 - Evaluating Family Dynamics
1:07:06 - Confronting the Past
1:14:35 - Selfish Choices
1:24:09 - The Weight of Expectations
1:42:55 - Boundaries and Negotiations
1:49:44 - Learning to Negotiate
The interview begins with Stefan expressing empathy towards the caller, acknowledging the challenging circumstances that compel them to have this conversation. The caller opens up about a tumultuous three-year period marked by multiple relocations, disconnections from family, work-related stress, and the challenges of raising small children. He describes frequent conflicts with his wife, exacerbated by changes in their living situation and the stress that comes with having a new baby. The caller grapples with feeling overwhelmed and often finds himself arguing with his wife, especially in front of their children, which he recognizes as harmful.
Stefan acknowledges the caller's challenges and suggests they delve into the underlying dynamics of his relationship with his wife. The caller recounts the history of his relationship, detailing how he and his wife met in 2011 and became inseparable, sharing many life experiences together. However, he notes the turning point in their relationship occurred in 2018 after building a home with his wife’s parents. The caller reveals his wife's traumatic childhood, which included abuse and neglect, and how this past resurfaced as they became parents themselves, leading to increased stress for both partners.
As the conversation progresses, the caller goes into detail about his childhood, also shaped by neglect and lack of emotional support from his own parents. He describes how his mother and stepfather tended to be disengaged and had little emotional connection with him, instilling a sense of isolation. He reflects on the commonality between both he and his wife's experiences, illustrating how these early family dynamics manifest in their current relationship—particularly the lack of communication and the overwhelming fear of confrontation.
Stefan identifies a pattern, illustrating that the caller reacts with aggression towards his wife, whom he can confront, while avoiding confrontation with his mother, who he still feels tied to emotionally. He elaborates on the complexities of familial relationships, specifically examining how traits of dominance and passive behavior parallel those seen in the caller's interactions with his wife and kids. The caller acknowledges this dynamic, admitting that his feelings of powerlessness lead him to express anger towards his wife instead of addressing the source of his conflict.
Furthermore, they explore the ramifications of these family dynamics on the caller's capacity to negotiate within relationships, particularly how the caller's upbringing stunted his negotiation skills. Stefan emphasizes that adults who control the narrative in familial relationships, especially when tied to emotional manipulation or threats, hinder their children's ability to create boundaries. This conversation leads to the understanding that the caller’s relationship with his mother dramatically affects his parenting and partnership with his wife.
Stefan encourages the caller to have an honest conversation with his mother, challenging him to consider whether maintaining the relationship serves him or his family. He expresses a shared bewilderment at how neglectful and abusive partnerships often continue on a generational cycle, drawing parallels between the caller’s mother’s treatment of him and her grandchildren. They delve into the broader implications of the caller's unresolved feelings towards his mother, ultimately advocating for healthy boundaries that prioritize the well-being of his wife and children.
The discussion shifts towards the caller's in-laws and the difficulties surrounding that relationship as well. The caller shares how he and his wife took a decisive step to distance themselves from her parents after the birth of their son, driven by the fear that his wife's parents might replicate the abusive patterns from his wife's childhood. The decision to cut ties is noted as painful but necessary, reinforcing the importance of emotional safety for their family unit.
Throughout the call, Stefan provides not just support, but a framework for understanding the unhealthy patterns the caller is repeating and the tools necessary to address them. They discuss the significance of applying negotiation and communication techniques actively in his new role as a father and husband. In concluding the interview, the caller expresses gratitude for the insights gained and a desire to work on their family dynamics and communication moving forward. The interview ends on a positive note, with an open invitation for further dialogue and support on this journey of personal growth and familial healing.
[0:00] Nice to meet you. As always, I wish it were under slightly better circumstances, but I'm sure we can do some useful stuff over the course of the call. So why don't you tell me what's going on and how I can best help? I mean, I've read the email in a call, but if you want to put it in your own words.
[0:20] Yeah see the main problem is um since three years uh we are constantly changing our environment of our living you know uh we have we have um disconnected from the parents of my wife and then we moved on to to different um flats for example so there was constantly stress uh also with the work i had a lot of stress within the work then of course our son is is growing up and and is also making some troubles of course small children in this age from from two to three years are making trouble um so many many things came together and we are my wife and me we are, how to get it in the correct words my wife and me are, complaining at each other if you know what i mean yeah.
[1:20] Yeah fighting and disagreeing and arguing and.
[1:23] Yeah correct and and um it got it got it got much worse when we uh have done the last last uh move to into the deck to the actual flat we're living in at the moment because i have a totally change in my work environment, so I changed my work. We moved to the complete opposite side of the country and also my wife was pregnant at this moment, so we are in a waiting of the second child.
[2:00] And then the second child came on the 2nd of May and then everything got worse. So I was at home for about a month, mainly with the The main idea was to help my wife out, doing a lot of work for her, especially after the birth of the kid. Doing a lot with the older child, with my son. But it didn't went that well, to be honest. And after that, we are fighting again and again. And every time it gets loud, especially and sadly in front of the kids. You know and yeah i have somehow i have to fix this this main problem i i my wife is complaining about that i'm not listening to her and she's complaining about i'm doing the complete opposite what she is expecting from me and somehow i'm not able to manage everything of that in a way that fits her, That fits her needs, if you know what I mean.
[3:14] I do.
[3:14] So I'm also very stressed at the moment. So the smallest things can throw me out of my way. So especially when the last two weeks were special because our daughter is getting her teeth at the moment. And of course, this can be stressful. She's whining a lot. She is crying, is loud and everything. And then our son is also getting loud because he also wants attention from us. And that's sometimes that's too much for me. And then I'm also getting loud, especially to my wife. And that's absolutely not the right way. And there are so many, so many things going on in my, in my, in my head at the moment, you know, and just. Trying to figure out how can I handle this. And my hope here is really, maybe you have some tips for me or can open me new things or something.
[4:22] You know, I've not fought for my own.
[4:27] Well, I appreciate that. And I really do sympathize. Children have the amazing ability to make whatever a marriage is more. So if the marriage is good, it becomes great. And if the marriage is bad, it becomes terrible. I mean, children just dial up everything and make everything more intense.
[4:47] So I really, I really sympathize. Can you tell me a little bit about the history of your relationship with your wife when you met, how long you dated and so on?
[4:55] Um yeah of course uh the first time we met was in 2011 so a pretty long time ago already so we have dated for round about a year uh um and run around about in the summer of 2012 we became uh we became a couple you know and from then on um we shared everything together so from from the first moment on i was either i was at her home every day or or she was at my home every day so from this moment on we are we were we were not separated anymore and and that that was a great time a wonderful time and we we have done so much we also had a uh after three years we we got after two years yeah after two years we got a dog for example and that was also a great time with the dog and we moved to our first flat and also this time was great and then um after six years was was so was for me i've what it was what i think it was the breaking point in 2018 uh we We had built our own flat at the house of her parents.
[6:22] And from then on, everything sadly get worse. Yeah. She, she was also not, not very safe with her feelings about her parents. Everything much and much more came up to the daylight, you know? So she, she told me everything about her own childhood and then learned about her past. I never knew before. I thought I knew everything from my childhood, but I not nearly knew everything. And then everything got worse. Yeah. And then we got our first child.
[7:07] Sorry, what did you find out about her childhood that was surprising?
[7:15] She had a very abusive childhood. Her parents were really not good to her. She was hit by her father, for example, or was it her mother? It doesn't matter. She got hit by her parents, for example. Her parents totally ignored everything what she was interested in, mainly, for example, books. She's reading books very much. She's very talented in arts. She's interested in computer games and so on, and none of them were in the interest of her parents. And therefore she grew up with parents not interested in her and completely isolated in her own room. If you want to say so. And I didn't even know that it was that bad, her childhood, until we moved to her parents.
[8:22] And the reason you didn't know that was because she lied or because you hadn't talked about it?
[8:29] She hadn't talked about it. So I'm also never asked that deeply to her, to be honest. and she don't have talked about it from her perspective, from her own.
[8:43] Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. So you were together for six years before you found out about how bad your girlfriend's childhood was, right?
[8:52] Yeah, I didn't know until after six years.
[8:57] No, no, I understand that. My question is, did you say to her, how was your childhood or something like that? And she said it was fine. In other words, she lied. Or did you just not talk about her childhood much at all?
[9:15] We don't talk about it. So she never lied to me.
[9:20] Okay. And how long have you been listening to what I do?
[9:27] To be honest, I only know you from her. and she is listening to you for around about five years, four years, five to four years at the moment.
[9:39] Okay, got it. So you just didn't ask her really much about her childhood?
[9:45] Yeah okay correctly and.
[9:47] Did what was your childhood like.
[9:51] My childhood as far as far as i can remember um was not that good from my perspective um because so i lived at a farm when i was younger and i can't remember much but i I can't also remember my parents have a lot to do with me. So yes, of course, sometimes we are going to do a bath or something, but I was also on my own most of the time. So I have to deal with me on my own. My parents weren't also not really interested in my interests. So, for example, every time I talk to them about my wishes for what I'm working in the future, every time they say, you have to be a car mechanic because you can make a lot of money as a car mechanic. But I didn't want to be a car mechanic, but they don't want to hear that. I always said I wanted to go into the IT. And now I'm an IT system engineer because that was the first time I have done what I want.
[11:12] But they were not happy, for example. Every time I talked to them, they want to be, should be a car mechanic, for example.
[11:22] And they were also not interested that I'm a huge fan of some sort of music. It's a big part of my life. I tried to learn a guitar for example they also not supported this yeah, that's a few main things from a childhood and after 12 years my father died in the woods when he was woodworking and then we were moved to up so my mom You can stay off the locations.
[11:59] What did your father die of?
[12:02] He was hit by a tree.
[12:07] Oh okay in.
[12:08] The woods during during woodworking okay yeah and afterwards uh my mom found a new new partner and we we moved to his uh to her new partner and i really liked this man you know he was a big part of my life and he was good to me other than than my as far as i know my father was to me um but of course i was 12 years old and i moved to a place where i have no friends and the only thing my mother has to had to do was to work every time nothing nothing else happened she only was working and had no time for me and then i'm sitting there with no friends no contacts or something. And then I began to play computer games and make some online friends and so on. But I barely moved out of my room, to be honest.
[13:13] Well, I mean, there's nothing to do outside if you don't have friends, right?
[13:18] Totally true, yes. I mean, after a few years, it got better, of course. But it was not the childhood sorry but did anyone did your mother care that you.
[13:30] Were staying home all the time or her new husband.
[13:38] If anybody cared about this so in the case of anybody asked why I'm home all the day or how do you mean that.
[13:49] Yeah I mean did anyone care that you weren't going anywhere or doing anything think no.
[13:55] Not really not really as far as i can remember i only go to this uh we're going to the school and after the school i'm driving home with the bus and then i'm sitting again in my my room doing my homework and after after that uh was playing video games so.
[14:14] When your mother comes home from work what would happen when you were that age.
[14:20] Nothing really he uh she she checked my homework if i have done it correctly and maybe he corrected something and yeah mainly that was it and then we were going to do eat and then i was sitting again in my in my room that's mainly the things i did in my in my childhood, from their mom and mom.
[14:44] So what would your mother and her, she got re-wed, her new husband, is that right? What would they do in the evenings?
[14:50] They were watching TV all the night.
[14:57] Okay, so they're like empty-souled NPCs. They have no particular inner life, no curiosity, no connection, no love, no conversation. They don't learn about the world. They don't have any particular hobbies or interests. They're just drone-like consumers of programming fiction, right?
[15:19] Yeah, there was one thing. They were going on vacations, like flying to different countries all over the world, but without me. They only did this together. And during that time, I was, of course, I was not alone at home. But I was at a guy's home and with his parents for around about a week or two weeks, depends on how long they were out of the home. And then afterwards I came back home and everything was normal again I'm sorry this guy, this guy was from my class, it was yeah it was not really a friend it was okay for the time but we had nothing to do with each other outside of that.
[16:15] Oh so they just basically dumped you with some family yeah, okay have you talked to your parents at all about well I guess your mother and your stepfather have you talked to them or ever had a conversation with them about your dissatisfactions with your childhood.
[16:40] Also not really I had never the energy or the drive for my own to confront anyone. I was always the guy that thinks the life would be the best for me when I'm not confronting anyone. Just leave me alone and go your way, do your things and never confront it.
[17:09] Well, that's not true. I mean, sorry, Sorry, to be blunt, that's not even remotely true. You say that you have a life where you don't confront people, don't fight with them? But all you're doing is fighting with your wife. So that's not true?
[17:24] Yeah.
[17:25] Is it?
[17:25] Yeah, it's not true anymore.
[17:29] Well, no, because you say that you don't like to confront people right after you say, I'm not trying to catch you or pick on you or anything, but if you say, I don't like to confront people or have fights with people, but then you say, I'm yelling at my wife all the time in front of the kids, then it's confusing, right?
[17:50] Yeah. See, that's also a problem. I'm doing that with my wife, but I'm not doing it with other people, you know?
[17:59] Right, so that's humiliating for your wife. Because for you, confrontation or anger is a factor of power. So you don't feel you have any power with your mother, so you don't confront her. But you feel like you have power over your wife, so you yell at her. In other words, yelling is humiliating.
[18:21] Okay, yes. I think I get what you mean.
[18:25] Yes. The boss yells at the employee. The employee yells at the intern. The intern kicks the cat, right? Yelling or aggression is a mark of power.
[18:39] Yeah.
[18:41] So you and your wife are mutually humiliating each other by yelling at each other, but not confronting anyone else.
[18:51] Yeah yes and.
[18:54] So it looks pretty hypocritical i mean i can just say from your wife's perspective right it would look pretty hypocritical if you say well i can't i can't confront my mother or my stepfather for their appalling selfishness it is horribly horribly horribly selfish, to go on vacation and leave your kid with someone else it is horribly selfish to take your kid to a a new environment. And dump your kid on the internet and dump your kid on computer games and only check his homework and never talk to him. So you're yelling at the woman who gave you two babies and you claim to love, but you're not getting angry and talking to your mother who objectively did you significant abuse and neglect.
[19:47] Yeah.
[19:48] So why not? Why wouldn't you talk to your mother and say, what the hell was this going on with the parenting? Like, this is terrible. Like, help me understand.
[20:01] It's like I'm fearing this confrontation for any reason. And at this moment, I don't know why. Because I'm not fearing the confrontation with my wife, but I'm fearing the confrontation with my daughter.
[20:19] Your wife understands that if she can make you frightened, you'll leave her alone. You won't confront her. You'll be compliant and nice to her if she frightens you. Because that's what your mother does. Your mother frightens you, and your stepfather frightens you. And so you're meek and nice to them, right? That's i mean if i'm wrong never how i'm wrong but that's seems that's what i'm getting from what you're saying no.
[20:54] No you're absolutely right and never thought about this that way.
[20:58] Well that's why uh that's why you're calling and it's not that way it's it's not like some weird angle you know like it's it's the fact right that people who frighten you get your best behavior, and people who don't frighten you, you snarl at them.
[21:14] So you punish people who are nice to you, and you reward people who are abusive. You punish the woman you claim to love by yelling at her, but your mother who treated you appallingly badly, and neglect is the second worst kind of abuse, in my opinion. The worst abuse is sexual abuse. The second worst abuse is neglect. The third is verbal, and the least is physical. So your mother and your father and your stepfather all treated you appallingly badly, and you are absolutely nice to them. Your wife, you claim to love each other, she gives you children, she supports you, and you snarl at her.
[22:04] This is the complete inverse of what would be rational, right? You should be angry at the people who treated you badly when you were a helpless child, and you should be the nicest, not to the people who neglected and abused you, you should be the nicest to the woman you claim to love who's giving you children, all this kind of stuff, right?
[22:29] Yeah, and therefore at the moment I'm very thankful to her that he made it too long with me.
[22:38] Well, you're not thankful to her if you yell at her.
[22:42] Yeah, absolutely true.
[22:44] Okay. So let's get back to have you ever thought of being honest? I'm just going to say your parents. I know it's not your biological father, but have you ever thought of being honest with your parents?
[23:04] I've thought about it many times, to be honest, but I never had the courage or the energy to do this, because I'm afraid of the confrontation.
[23:18] Okay, so what do you think will happen with the confrontation that is so scary? I mean, it doesn't matter if they abandon you now, then they can't yell at you or do much, or you're not under their control. All so what is it that you're so afraid of regarding being honest with your parents and i'm listen i'm not saying you have no reason to be afraid i'm just trying to understand what that is.
[23:41] In my personal perspective definitely it's it's she will will uh cut the the connection.
[23:53] Okay so so but you have no connection anyway if you're not honest i mean it's just it's a fake relationship if you're lying the whole time, if you're faking it. Okay, so let's say that she says, oh, if you're going to be honest and tell me how you really feel, I'm never talking to you again. That's the fear, right? She's going to say, I'm never talking to you again.
[24:17] Yeah, and she is absolutely the woman who will do this.
[24:21] Okay, so if she never talks to you again, what's very negative about that?
[24:32] When you think it this way...
[24:35] And I'm not disagreeing. Maybe she has $10 million you're about to inherit. Maybe she's the only blood match for a kidney and you've got kidney failure. I don't know, but someone who neglected and ignored and was selfish and punishes me for telling the truth, oh no, they might not be in my life. I'm trying to sort of understand what's the big downside there.
[24:59] To be honest nothing because because there's other other reasons why i think she she's not for example the best grandma you know there are many reasons i i have to confrontate her to be honest there are many things that are going wrong with her at the moment but i never never never had the courage to do that well.
[25:23] No but you only you only lack the courage because you're You're frightening yourself with some negative consequence, and I want to know what that is. What is the negative consequence?
[25:36] My only fear is...
[25:37] Sorry, go ahead.
[25:39] Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you.
[25:41] Okay.
[25:43] Absolutely, the only fear I have is that she will cut the connection.
[25:49] Okay, and then what? So then what?
[25:53] Yeah, nothing. It will not really change anything in our life.
[25:59] No, it will. Oh, it will absolutely change things in your life. It will be huge in your life. If you are honest with your mother, no matter what happens, it will have massive effects on your life. Positive effects on your life.
[26:27] You mean like the way because I don't have to deal with it anymore because I have it out of my head and so on? Do you mean it like that way?
[26:40] Well, you say that you lack courage, right?
[26:44] Yeah.
[26:44] So someone who is afraid of being honest is a coward, right? I mean, it's one thing if some guy's got you in a headlock and a knife to your throat, but this is just mom, and you're a grown-ass adult, right? So, you will stop thinking of yourself as a coward. And when you stop thinking of yourself as a coward, you stop being a bully. Because being a coward and a bully are two sides of the same coin. So if you're honest with your mother it doesn't matter what she does, you have acted in a noble heroic and courageous manner which means you can respect yourself more it means that your wife can respect you more and it means that you'll be less tempted, to make up for your bad feelings about being a coward by trying to dominate your wife.
[27:46] Because your mom is still running your emotional life your mom stands between you and honesty integrity nobility courage directness so you're and and listen i sympathize i really do i'm not trying to say anything bad about you but you're still acting with regards to your mother as if if you are a child utterly dependent upon her goodwill. See, people who are terrified of being abandoned by their parents are still operating in the mindset of a child. When you were a child, you could not ever afford to be honest with your mother, right? Because if your mother decides to abandon you and you're a child, oh, very bad things happen, right? In other words, when we evolved as a species, children who were blunt, direct and honest towards abusive parents, they got dumped into a snowdrift or left behind when the wolves came or not tended when they were sick. So when you're a child, you can never afford to be honest with a neglectful or abusive parent because the risk is too high.
[29:05] But as an adult, the way that you signal to your mind and your soul that you're an adult is you stop approaching relationships with the mindset of a child. As a child, you could never afford to annoy or upset your mother by being honest. But if you still feel that, it means you're still operating from the mindset of a child where she has all the power and you're utterly dependent upon her goodwill. And if she rejects you, you're dead or doomed or both. Does that make sense?
[29:43] Absolutely, yes.
[29:45] And you can't be the head of your own household if you still feel like a child regarding your mother. You can't be a father if you're also still a child. You can't be a husband if you still feel like a child, helpless, independent, upon the moods of your mother. So it has a huge effect to be honest with your mother because you're saying to your mother, I'm no longer a child, you don't have power over me, and if you reject me, good riddance.
[30:22] If you attack and ostracize or reject me for telling you the truth, good riddance.
[30:37] And can you imagine, I mean, your wife understands that you still tremble before the infinite statue of your all-powerful mother. She knows that deep down. Women know these things very deeply and very powerfully. She knows that you still shake before the idea of your mother. And that you are subjugated by your mother and your stepfather. And so she can't relax and feel secure, because you don't have the ability to fundamentally protect your wife if you're still enslaved to your mother because if your mother wants something you will sacrifice anything in order to pretend to maintain that relationship so your wife can't relax and trust you, there's a predator in the house called your mother and no one can relax with a predator in the house. I'm not saying physically, but psychologically, if that makes sense.
[31:42] Yeah. Never thought it that way, to be honest.
[31:49] Well, how did you think it? What was your thought about, well, I could talk to my mother or maybe be honest. I'm sure your wife, if she's listened to me for almost half a decade, I'm sure she said something about being honest with your mother, right?
[32:03] Yeah. This is currently opening my ass, to be honest. So many situations are making sense now for me.
[32:17] Go on.
[32:19] Yeah. Every time my mother is saying anything... I always had a bad feeling about it, but every time I do what she wants from me, maybe thinking about it for a minute or something, and then just straight doing it. Even if my wife at home says, do you have thought about it? Maybe it's not a good idea. Why are you stressing so out that much for your mother? Why are you doing this for her? Why are you doing this for her? For example, my Why do I have to do that? For example, my mother... is going out pretty much, drinking all evening long and making a party and something. And it happened many, many times that she called me to pick her up from the party. And even if it was middle of the night I jumped up and said oh yes okay I'm on my way and my wife said oh please come back into the bed it's in the middle of the night why are you doing this she should call a cab or something you know right, and now with this perspective yeah it made absolutely no sense.
[33:44] Right so where's your stepfather why is he not Picking up your mother.
[33:50] Yeah, I also wanted to tell you that my stepfather also died a few years ago. Exactly 10 years ago. And that's also a point. Brain cancer.
[34:07] Oh gosh, okay. And was he like older or just unlucky?
[34:15] Um, yeah, not that too old, 55, 56 at this moment. Um, so, so not really old in my opinion. And yeah, it was just bad luck, I think. And after that, after that happened, um, my mother had so many partners and I don't even, liked one of them to be honest they are pretty and sorry that I say that this clearly they were all assholes they treated my mother also not fine like my stepfather did my stepfather treated at least my mom were treated fine by him but all men, she had afterwards were pure assholes to be honest and not even Once I had the courage to tell her that.
[35:18] But you were still a child, right? Sorry, how old were you when your stepfather died?
[35:25] That was 2014. So I was 22 years old.
[35:32] Okay. So then she dates these bad men, right?
[35:36] Yeah. One after another.
[35:38] Okay. Okay, and how many partners, roughly, did she have while you were in your 20s?
[35:46] During my 20s, 6 to 7.
[35:51] Sorry, she had 67 romantic or sexual partners?
[35:55] No, no, no. Sorry, 6 to 7.
[35:58] 6 to 7, okay. That's a little less exaggerated. Okay, appreciate it. Okay, so she had 6 or 7. So she had a date for 6 months, a year, maybe a little more, that's about it?
[36:11] Yeah, yeah.
[36:12] Okay. And what were the issues that you had with the men?
[36:17] Um in the first instance uh my mother was blind for their behavior so for example one of them he was very heavy smoking man was uh like you can call the the classic, alpha man or maybe at least he think he was an alpha man so born in the 40s 50s you know The men have to do nothing in the household. The wife has to do everything. Smoking again and again, even in front of the kids and so on. That person was absolutely horrible. And she was absolutely blind for it. The best thing about it was, I can't believe she told me that. She was on the way with this man and suddenly he had coke. You know not the drinks you know the white powder yeah yeah, and he said to her he's doing that every time he drive a longer distance and she was so okay yeah then do this.
[37:33] Okay so she went from a guy who died of cancer to a guy who's a chain smoker all right yeah.
[37:40] It's that's that's pretty when you say it that way it's it's absurd.
[37:44] And a drug addict.
[37:47] Yeah yeah that that too.
[37:49] Okay so i assume that they were all pretty pretty terrible guys right but but they didn't all die while they were dating her we don't have sort of some bottom widow situation on our hands no no.
[38:01] No none of them died during that time at least.
[38:04] And um so this was when she was in her 50s is that right and then in into her 60s was she still drinking and and partying and needing you to pick her up and stuff or wanting you to yeah.
[38:19] She she went 60 this year and she's also doing going to parties or something. Nearly every weekend she finds a party in the environment to go there and drink.
[38:36] And was she a drinker when you were younger as well?
[38:40] No, no, definitely not.
[38:42] Oh, it's unusual to have that as a habit you pick up later in life, but all right. Okay. Okay, and And has she ever admitted any faults over how she raised you?
[38:59] No, not really. She's telling me every time. When I criticize the smallest things, I have enough courage to do that. She's telling me every time, no, she was a good mother and she had done the best she could do. and so on and no that's not true, sorry go ahead if she had, one leads to another when she had the courage to confront my grandparents at that time I think she would be able to do much more with her kids it's because my brothers also were suffering from her behavior, you know?
[39:56] Right, okay, got it. And does your wife like your mother, or what does she think about your mother?
[40:07] Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse. It's highly depending how much he's involved at our children. You know how much she she's here how much she's trying to help us out and so on at the moment it's very hard to to say it on the on the nice way.
[40:34] Okay got it and you said you have some issues with her as a grandmother to your children and what are those.
[40:40] And what sorry i didn't understand it sorry.
[40:44] My apologies you said that you had some issues with your mother as a grandmother to your children and what were those.
[40:49] Issues um um the main problem here is uh we have we have the feeling that she lacks a lot more to do um traveling and so on and doing vacations um then being here to to help us out you know As I mentioned earlier, we have moved to the opposite of the country for my new work and so on. And she's here also. She also moved here.
[41:24] But instead of helping us out where we don't have any other persons helping us out, the only thing is she's going to parties or meeting this one or doing this one. Or for example, next week she's driving to Croatia again, the third time this year. And yeah, we're a little bit frustrated about this because especially the last two to three weeks during that time, our daughter was toothing and it was very, very stressful for all of us. And she was not really here for us. She didn't even mention so she could cook for us at least once a week or something or maybe, vacuum cleaning the flat because it's not really big you know, yeah all that small things that can help us can help out parents you know Sorry.
[42:34] I'm a little confused. So, is your expectation that your mother, who was a neglectful mother, would not also be a neglectful grandmother when she's never admitted fault?
[42:48] I'm not sure I understand. I'm not sure what your expectation would be. I mean, she was a neglectful mother, and she's a neglectful grandmother, and she's never admitted fault for being a neglectful mother. So maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand. Like, if my mother doesn't speak Japanese, and she's never learned Japanese, and then, you know, into my fourth decade, I'm like, I can't believe she still doesn't speak Japanese. She's never, she just doesn't want to learn Japanese. She, you know, like, it would be kind of odd, wouldn't it?
[43:20] Yeah with this perspective absolutely yes but i never thought about it that way before so i i was wishing every time uh she will be there for us more but of course but how would she know how.
[43:36] She has no practice she has no experience she has no history of doing anything like that.
[43:42] Yeah, that's absolutely true.
[43:44] If my friend has never gone rock climbing, why would I expect him to come rock climbing? He doesn't like it. He doesn't want to. Oh, he's still not coming rock climbing. Like, 40 years, he's still not rock climbing. That's why I'm a little confused. Like, why would you have the expectation that she knew how to be there for family when she was never there for you?
[44:05] Yeah. thinking about it it was absolutely stupid for me to do have.
[44:11] No no don't insult yourself it's not stupid it's not stupid it's compliance because if you were to say, to yourself about your mother well she's cold-hearted she's selfish and she doesn't think about what we need and she doesn't care that much about my children because that's the the case, right? Is anything that I'm saying wrong?
[44:42] No. Okay.
[44:43] So, if you were to say that, or to accept who your mother is, if you were to accept who your mother is, what would happen? If you were to just say, no, you know what, she's never going to be there for me, she doesn't care, she's selfish, she's just all about herself, right? So, if you were to say that to yourself, and you were to say that to your mother, what would happen then? I mean ideas or arguments or understanding is supposed to change what we do that's the whole point right if you understand how to diet and you want to lose weight then you you change your diet right so the ideas are all about change so if you accept that your mother's cold and selfish and will never change she's 60 years old her parenting is decades behind her she'll never change right she has and people who don't admit fault never change right they never change so if you were to to accept that your mother is terribly selfish, that has done you probably the most harm of anyone in the world, in your life, if you were to accept that, what would change?
[45:50] I think our life would be getting better.
[45:54] No, no. What practical things would change? What behavior would change with this understanding?
[46:06] I think I would say, yeah, okay. When you have time, then we can check if we have time also and then I can come over. But don't expect us to invite you anymore or We are not asking you anymore for anything or something. I think that would be the way to go.
[46:27] All right. And let's say that you accepted that your mother was selfish and won't change. And then she calls you at two in the morning because she wants a ride home from the bar. What would you say?
[46:39] No, definitely no.
[46:40] Right. So you would have boundaries. You would have rules. Does that make sense?
[46:48] Yeah, definitely.
[46:49] Now, does your mother want you to have boundaries and rules and not jump whenever she says what she wants?
[47:00] Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
[47:02] Yeah, your mother wants you, she wants you to continue to be her thoughtless slave.
[47:12] That's true.
[47:13] Because a slave can't get angry, a slave can't be honest, and a slave can't say no. and a slave is pushed around and then slaves push around those weaker because they're humiliated, right?
[47:26] That's true, yes.
[47:27] So you live as a slave. Now, slave owners don't want their slaves getting away. Obviously, right?
[47:36] Yeah, yeah.
[47:38] So you don't judge your mother because judging your mother is not convenient for your mother. She can't exploit you if you judge her, so you don't judge her. Instead you fight with your wife.
[47:53] That's true, yes. Gosh, why? Why have I never seen this way before?
[48:04] Well, you haven't called in before. I mean, I don't know anyone else who's out there doing this kind of stuff, so it's not exactly in popular culture, right?
[48:13] Yeah, I mean, I was two times in psychological... I can't read.
[48:19] No, psychological. Listen, I appreciate your English.
[48:21] Don't.
[48:22] Feel bad about that at all i.
[48:23] I can't learn other languages.
[48:25] So i hugely i'm hugely impressed by people.
[48:27] Who do so.
[48:28] Take your time and don't worry about that at all.
[48:30] So i was two times in psychological treatment as i mentioned you in the in the in the email and i had never the feeling I something has moved in my life you know none of them them has had the ability to to show me up new ways to handle some certain certain um situations like and were you.
[49:01] Seeing male or female therapists.
[49:03] One male one female right.
[49:07] So a lot of times what therapists do is they say hey, here's how you can better manage this relationship in your life. Whereas philosophically speaking, the question is, should this relationship be in your life? Do you know what I mean?
[49:28] It's absolutely correct.
[49:30] It's sort of like you move into a house and someone left a dangerous dog behind, right? And you go and you try to get advice and everyone says, well, I guess you could try and learn how to pet the dog. Maybe you could feed the dog so it gets nappy. And you just want to build a fence around the dog and maybe don't get your kids close to the dog because it keeps biting things. And nobody ever says, why would you need to manage the dog in the house? You didn't choose this dog. You just inherited it with the house. And you didn't choose your mother. Your mother just gave birth to you. You didn't choose her. You chose your wife. It's the ABC, accidental biological cage. We're all born into it. I am, you are, my daughter is, everyone is. Your wife is just born into these circumstances. We don't choose it. Now, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
[50:35] But it's not chosen. And so everyone says, here's what you have to do, is you have to try and find a way to somehow survive what you never damn well chose. You never chose this. You can't un-choose it. You just have to find a way to survive. Here's how to manage crazy people. But crazy people, by definition, can't be managed because they're crazy. Selfish people can't be managed. They can be appeased. You can give up your soul. You can give up your independence, your virtue, your courage, your balls, your integrity, your authority. You can give it all up. You can appease them. That's all you can do with selfish people is appease them.
[51:28] Because they're way better at bullying than you'll ever be, so you can't win that one. All you can do is self-erase. Selfish people say, you don't exist except to serve me. And if you don't serve me, you're a bad fucking person. And if you do serve me, pat, pat, good for you. That's all. You're a domesticated pet. There to serve them. Which means you can't exist. You can't have a choice. You can't have your own perspective. and your own opinion. If you say something that they dislike, well, you're just a shitty person who needs to be punished. If you make them feel bad, you are bad and must be punished. Now, how the fuck are you supposed to manage that? How are you supposed to be honest, direct, mature, responsible, have integrity, clear communication, have your own needs, negotiate with someone who just verbally or mentally punches you in the nose or in the mouth if you dare to contradict them.
[52:38] It's like going to Alexander Solzhenitsyn when he's incarcerated in a Soviet concentration camp and saying, here's how to get along with your guard. Well, I guess you could do that, but let's not pretend there's any negotiation really going on here because the guard has all the power.
[52:59] So, I mean, the fundamental question to me is not how do you deal with something, but why do you have to deal with it at all? Why do you have to deal with it at all? Now, there may be good reasons. You know, maybe there are wonderful aspects to your mother, and maybe there are things that make it worthwhile. I haven't heard anything, but I'm obviously open to hearing that case. But honestly, I don't know. I mean, this seems to be very common among therapists.
[53:30] Well, you've got a really selfish mother, and she's aggressive, and she exploits you, and, you know, she needs a ride which would cost her 20 euros, but too bad, you've got to lose your entire night's sleep when you have babies in the house to go pick her up. That's just ridiculously selfish, right?
[53:52] So, I mean, I don't know what the answer is, because therapists say all the time, they always say, well, if you have really, let's say, if you were in a marriage with someone like your mother, right? Or if someone like your mother was your girlfriend, sorry to get all kind of Freudian, but if you said, well, you know, she drinks, she's aggressive, I can't be honest with her, then they'd say, well, maybe this isn't the relationship for you.
[54:19] Like, if you accept that she's not going to change and you shouldn't be in a relationship in the desperate hope that someone's going to change, if you had an abusive and neglectful girlfriend the therapist would say i think i guess i don't know but i guess they'd say well is this the right thing for you like you're not forced into this relationship it's not an arranged marriage you're not gonna be thrown in jail for not dating your girlfriend you know is this really the right relationship for you and they say that with marriages they say that with friends they say that uh even with siblings sometimes but never with mothers or almost never, so it's a strange phenomenon but it just tells me how many women like your mother must be out there if that whole perspective seems to have hijacked an entire profession to a large degree anyway, sorry, that's just a minor rant but you were mentioning how I mean, I'm happy to hear the case right, I really am but what's the benefit of having your mother in your life.
[55:38] I think it's already a sad thing I have to think that long about it.
[55:43] And you don't have to answer this question to me because that's a long conversation but I think it's important I think it's important now, how much stress does your mother add or subtract from your marriage and your parenting, right? So if she was over every day and she was giving you and your wife a chance for date nights or little vacations, or she was just really, then, you know, there's a real plus and she's reducing your stress and so on, right? On the other hand, if she's difficult, gets you up at night and is causing problems and you can't be honest and, right? So is she adding or subtracting stress from your marriage and your parenting adding definitely adding okay so i'm going to tell you something else that i think therapists should talk about and they probably do but i'll just reinforce it here so now that you have become a father and congratulations by the way i know one of them's new and one of them's not so new but that's wonderful congratulations so what is the one principle by which you guide your decisions as a father.
[57:03] I just want I'm sorry? I just want that my children have the best life.
[57:11] Yeah. So you have to guide your decisions by what is best for your children.
[57:16] Yeah.
[57:17] Right? I mean, it's best to get a good night's sleep, but if your baby wakes up hungry, you've got to get up and feed your baby. Right? So we take what is best for us in isolation, and we change it, and sometimes even reverse it, so we do what is best for our children. We agree on that, right?
[57:40] Yeah, definitely.
[57:42] Is it better or worse for your children if the parents are more stressed?
[57:50] No, no. Okay.
[57:52] So your mother's presence in your life is bad for your children, because your mother adds stress and it's bad for your children if their parents are more stressed.
[58:03] Yeah.
[58:04] So if we make decisions based upon what is best for our children, and somebody adds stress and stress is bad for parents, then that person is a negative to your children. Okay. Now, in the present form, maybe you can have a conversation and maybe you can sort things out and make things better or something like that, right? But right now, your mother is a net negative to your children because your mother is stressing out you and your wife, right?
[58:40] Definitely, yes.
[58:42] Okay. So, then the decision is out of your hands. That's the good news. The good news is that the decision is out of your hands because if you're going to decide, to do what is best for your children and your mother in your life is a net negative for your children then the decision is is clear now again that doesn't mean whether you see or don't see your mother but i think it does mean that the relationship in its current form is not good for your children right your relationship with you so you have to you be uh you be honest direct and and tell the truth and right try and find some way to set boundaries and like all of this kind of stuff right yeah so the the great news is once you become a dad once you become a dad um who's in your life is no longer up to you it's not your choice see in a way and i'm obviously not trying to say that you're exactly the same as your mother or even much like her, but in a way, you're being selfish too. Because you're saying, well, I want to have a relationship with my mother, even though it's bad for my children.
[59:59] So that's being selfish. Because it's preferable for you to have a relationship with your mother or a pretend relationship, but it's bad for your kids.
[1:00:15] In the same way your mother dated guys who weren't fun for you, even though you were an adult, age 22 and so on, right? But your mother does things that are beneficial to her at your expense, and you're doing something that you perceive to be beneficial to you, which is to have a pretend relationship with your mother, at the expense of your children. So it's the same kind of selfishness, if that makes sense.
[1:00:40] It is.
[1:00:43] You owe everything that makes your children's lives better you owe that and anyway so i've made that case so is there anything that you wanted to mention because there's a something else i wanted to discuss.
[1:00:58] No the main thing is absolutely how to can can handle my aggressions better but with knowing where my aggressions are coming from, I think I'm able to handle this better.
[1:01:12] Yeah, if you have an honest conversation with your mother, however it shakes out, you will absolutely be less aggressive with your wife. And your wife will be less aggressive with you.
[1:01:24] Yeah, that's the point. She isn't even aggressive to me. I'm the only aggressor in this relationship at the moment.
[1:01:34] You know okay so you feel dominated by your mother and then you dominate your wife yeah.
[1:01:41] It looks like it is that way.
[1:01:44] Okay it.
[1:01:44] Must be it must must be that way.
[1:01:47] So your mother also it is not good i mean here's the thing too like you know that stress hormones from the mother goes into the baby's milk right yeah so if you're upsetting and stressing out the mother you're You're harming the baby during pregnancy and during breastfeeding and beyond, right?
[1:02:11] Yeah. Sadly, I know that.
[1:02:13] Okay. So you can't do it. Like, I hate to say, just stop it, but you can't do it. You cannot stress out the mother of your children. It's bad for your children and bad for her. You are not, you are there to provide and protect your family. And if you are harming and stressing out the mother, then you have turned from a provider to a kind of predator. And you cannot do that. Your relationship will not survive.
[1:02:51] Yeah, that's the reason why I called you.
[1:02:55] So every man faces a choice between the past and the future. Your mother is where? She's part of what? Your past or your future?
[1:03:07] In the current form, the past.
[1:03:11] Is there a form where she would not be part of your past?
[1:03:15] Yeah but she has to dramatically change her behavior.
[1:03:19] No no that's in the future what i'm saying is that you grew up with your mother but you married sorry yeah you grew up with your mother but you married your wife your mother you did not choose your wife you chose your mother is part of your past your wife is your entire future oh.
[1:03:36] Okay yeah that's yeah yeah.
[1:03:39] So we all face loyalty to the past versus loyalty to the future. Loyalty to that which we did not choose versus loyalty to that which we did choose. Loyalty, if we had bad parents, loyalty to people who harmed and exploited us versus loyalty to people, our wife, who loves and nourishes us. So you literally have, in my mind, an angel and a devil on either shoulder. And the devil is saying, sacrifice the future for the sake of appeasing the past. And the angel is saying, invest in the future, even if it means sacrificing the past.
[1:04:32] Which makes a lot more sense.
[1:04:35] Well, I think so. And again, once you have children, you have people in your life not there by choice, and so you have to act to their benefit no matter what like no matter what and if your mother is causing negative effects, to you your wife and therefore your children you don't have the right to do that to your children, Now, maybe your mother can improve, maybe she can apologize. I wouldn't put a lot of money on it, but, you know, whatever, right? Maybe. And so I think it's worth, you know, out of honor to the past, giving her the opportunity, having an honest conversation and giving her the opportunity to improve. I mean, that's up to you. I think that's generally a good idea. But this situation cannot continue. It's harming your wife and your children.
[1:05:40] Yeah and they don't want it well.
[1:05:43] I mean if you bought a pet that kept biting your wife and children you wouldn't keep the pet would you.
[1:05:50] Funny thing as I mentioned earlier we had a dog we had it because the dog was not good to our son, because he was rambling at it and so on and was not, recognizing our son you know and and therefore we we had the courage to uh to cut the line and give the dog away but i'm i was not able until today to cut the line with my mother it's it's well again i.
[1:06:23] I personally my and i can't obviously i i will never tell you what to do guaranteed i will never.
[1:06:29] Tell you what to do but.
[1:06:30] What i will say is that what's important with all our relationships is closure which is certainty. So if you have doubt as to whether your relationship with your mother can be improved, it's probably worth having a conversation with her. If you're absolutely, completely, and totally certain, then that's a different matter, right? But given that this is the first time you're hearing it, it probably is worth having a conversation with your mother to try and figure out how to achieve something better, and then if you find out that you cannot achieve something better, that's a different, then at least you know. If that makes sense.
[1:07:05] Yeah.
[1:07:07] Okay, so let me get to this. Let's talk about moving in with your wife's parents. What the heck is going on there?
[1:07:23] Oh, my God.
[1:07:25] Because we've done one side of the aisle. Now we move to the other.
[1:07:32] No no we are so happy that we we we have gone that that step to to cut the cord to, her parents to be honest because you know sorry i don't know i don't know.
[1:07:47] What that means because last time i heard uh last time i heard you'd moved in there.
[1:07:54] Yeah, in 2018, we moved to the parents of my wife, right?
[1:07:59] Yeah.
[1:08:01] Yeah. And in 2021, we cut the relationship also with them because my wife was struggling with her own parents and I was also not good to her during that time. Time but it's it's it's it's another chapter of our relationship um and yeah at the end of the year we moved out from there and began our new life without them you know because there were also the the struggling of uh how can be grandparents good to our children when they were not good parents to her own child. You know? It has parallels to what I have with my mom at the moment.
[1:08:57] Okay, and was there a particular moment or a crisis with your in-laws, or how did that come about?
[1:09:06] The moment where the crisis was starting was the birth of our son. From then from that moment on my my wife was permanently stressed out because, she was thinking again about her own childhood and everything was coming up all negative uh was coming up from her own childhood yeah you know the child abuse that the hitting from her mother um her own parents not interested in her and something and uh and she don't want it to, this also happens to our son, you know?
[1:09:50] Oh, that might hit your son, okay.
[1:09:53] Yeah, and the absolutely worst case scenario, we both think that would be possible, you know, when the kid is crying a lot or is, you know, how kids are in this HR with two to three years, you know?
[1:10:11] Right.
[1:10:12] Of course, the complaining and so on. And we are both thinking it would have been possible that maybe he got also hit by them. So we had to cut the relationship with them.
[1:10:30] And did you talk to them about this stuff as a whole or how did it happen that the relationship ended in this way?
[1:10:39] My wife has done all of this so we have to interview her for this I assume.
[1:10:48] You would have asked her about.
[1:10:49] These things no no, Yeah, but I was also not a good husband at this period because I was also, again, that guy that don't wanted any confrontation with anyone. And I was there and I was trying to...
[1:11:09] No, you got to stop this. I'm so nice. I don't want to confront people. I'm so accommodating because you're fighting with your wife. So you're not a guy who doesn't want to confront. I just have to keep reminding you of this.
[1:11:23] Yeah, and you are absolutely right about this.
[1:11:26] Okay.
[1:11:26] But at this period, I was that guy that doesn't want confrontation with the in-laws.
[1:11:34] With the authority figures, yeah.
[1:11:36] Yeah, correct. Again, it's again this behavior. And so I was talking with my in-laws. I was talking with my wife, again with the in-laws, with my wife. And my wife was so frustrated about my behavior because she had the feeling I don't stand to her, if you know what I mean.
[1:11:57] You won't stand with her, right?
[1:12:00] Yeah, of course I won't stand with her, but I had not the courage to do that at this moment. And therefore, my wife had to do this all by her own. You know, I was not a good husband at this moment, and yeah, it was a very frustrating time for my wife.
[1:12:25] Right. And why do you think you were unable to help her in this area? Because we can say, oh, I lacked courage, but that doesn't really answer anything, right? That's just a self-condemnation. Yeah.
[1:12:40] Yeah, again, I had fear of confrontation.
[1:12:43] I get that, but why? With your wife's parents, this is not your mother, right?
[1:12:52] Yeah, that's the abstract thing in this case. I don't know why, to be honest. I was thinking about it a lot, and I can't get an answer that fits the whole situation. So I was there and I have done nothing really helpful for my wife.
[1:13:17] You mean in this area.
[1:13:19] In this area yes ok.
[1:13:22] And then the question.
[1:13:23] Is why, and you again coward I don't want.
[1:13:28] To that doesn't answer the question.
[1:13:33] I can't answer the question at the moment. I don't know why. Something was blocking me from getting into the confrontation. And I don't know what it was.
[1:13:45] You didn't necessarily have to confront your wife's parents directly, but you could have, I think, if I understand this correctly, you could have done more to support her in this. Is that right?
[1:14:01] Yeah. Okay.
[1:14:04] So she would be upset with her parents, and what would you say? What would you do about all of that?
[1:14:13] I think I've done the worst thing you can do in this situation. I've told her, oh, come on, it's not that bad. Think again about it, and so on, you know?
[1:14:24] Oh, so you actually were undermining her desire to get some boundaries and distance. Distance.
[1:14:33] Yes. Okay. Yes.
[1:14:35] So you thought that, did you think she was in the wrong? You thought she was in the wrong, right?
[1:14:45] Yeah can can't deny it in this moment yes yes you.
[1:14:49] Keep saying in this moment i don't know what that means to you do you.
[1:14:55] Mean just one day or.
[1:14:56] What do you mean.
[1:14:56] And yeah that there was a um change of my mind later on when i have decided we have to go out earlier than later you know You mean.
[1:15:11] Sorry, not see her parents sooner rather than later So for how long were you opposed to her setting up some boundaries with her parents? How long did that go on for?
[1:15:22] A few months Okay Four to five months, to be concrete Okay.
[1:15:28] Got it And how long was the process as a whole?
[1:15:36] Let me think about it, six months yeah six months.
[1:15:43] Okay got it so for four or five months of those uh six months you were opposed to what she was doing yeah okay got it and what do you think changed your mind about this.
[1:16:01] I have seen her how should I should I pronounce it was.
[1:16:11] There something like you that they screamed at your wife and you finally got it or was there something else.
[1:16:19] No I've seen how sad my wife was.
[1:16:22] You know but you knew hang on but you knew she was sad that's why she was doing all of this to begin with right so it's not like you suddenly realized how sad she was.
[1:16:33] Yeah, the fightings with my wife were also getting more intense. And of course, she cried and so on. And at some point, I realized that that's definitely not the way to go. And then I decided to help her more out, you know?
[1:16:56] Okay, got it, got it. So it was based upon your wife being upset. It wasn't any particular kind of principle. And I'm not saying that's bad. I just want to understand the sequence.
[1:17:09] Yeah.
[1:17:10] Okay. So, we already answered this to some degree. So, the reason why you couldn't support your wife was that all the principles that apply to your wife's parents apply to your mother.
[1:17:27] Yeah, I think so.
[1:17:28] So you couldn't support her in creating some distance with dysfunctional parents, because then you would have had to do that with your mother, right?
[1:17:39] Yes.
[1:17:40] So, again, you're back to obeying your mother.
[1:17:46] Yeah.
[1:17:49] Do you feel any, maybe it's a language barrier, but I don't get the sense that you have any emotion about any of this?
[1:17:59] So you you wanted me to um you want to know if i'm angry or something at.
[1:18:07] My mother or specify any emotion but i'm i think i'm giving you some pretty big insights and you're like yeah yeah yeah yep like i'm talking about the weather or something if that makes sense it's a little It's a little confusing to me.
[1:18:22] Mainly I'm frustrated I have not seen it earlier this way. So you have opened my eyes in the case of the relationship with my mother. And I'm constantly thinking about that how I can manage this to get a better life with my wife and my children. So I'm currently not the most emotional guy.
[1:18:50] Okay, let me ask you this. With your stepfather, did he ever do anything to stand up to your mother?
[1:19:01] My stepfather, yes. My father, no.
[1:19:03] Okay, and what did your stepfather do to stand up to your mother?
[1:19:09] He was defending my mother against everything. When someone criticized my mother, he was there.
[1:19:15] Sorry, sorry. Not stand up for your mother, stand up to, against your mother.
[1:19:23] Oh, no. Okay. No.
[1:19:26] Okay, so your father did not stand up against your mother, did not tell her no.
[1:19:32] Yes.
[1:19:32] And your stepfather did not stand up against your mother. Were there any other of your mother's boyfriends that you saw that told her no or stood up to her or criticized her in any fundamental way?
[1:19:48] Yes.
[1:19:49] Okay, and who was that?
[1:19:52] What? Sorry?
[1:19:53] And who was that? You said somebody did that. Who was that?
[1:19:58] This one guy I told you before. You know, the chain-smoking guy.
[1:20:03] Oh, the drug addict?
[1:20:04] Yeah he told my mother what she has to do and so on.
[1:20:11] Okay and how did your mother react to that.
[1:20:18] She have done everything he wants she, in German there is a way to pronounce this in a funny way but I don't know how to pronounce it in English she was ruled by him uh-huh okay so he told her.
[1:20:40] What to do and what did she change that he told her to change.
[1:20:48] She cut the connection from him so she goes she go away from him.
[1:20:55] I'm sorry this is probably a bit of a language issue so just be patient as I try to sort of unravel this so are you saying that he this man, the cocaine guy, that he contradicted your mother, and then she dumped him. She broke up with him.
[1:21:13] Yeah.
[1:21:14] Okay, so he stood up to your mother, and then your mother dumped him. She broke up with him, right?
[1:21:21] Yes, after a few months, yes.
[1:21:23] Okay, so he was not able to successfully stand up to your mother. He just tried, and she broke up with him. So this is another reason why you would be nervous about confronting your mother. Because when your mother is disagreed with, she dumps people. She erases people. She ghosts them. them she she breaks up with them right yes.
[1:21:46] That's what she do.
[1:21:47] Okay so you've never seen anyone successfully stand up to your mother and get her to change right that's true yes okay so why would you blame yourself and say well i'm a coward i'm a this i'm a that i mean even even cocaine cane-fueled, alpha males can't get her to change. Even men who can pay all her bills, even men who are high status can't get your mother to change. So how can you as her child do that?
[1:22:29] Thinking about it this way, I'm not able to do that.
[1:22:34] I mean, my own mother has i mean i don't think she has had uh dates uh in in many many many years i mean decades right, and she's living a very wretched life and even the wretchedness of her life and the rejection of everyone around her has not caused her to change, So even the most negative consequences imaginable, and I think she does live the most negative consequences imaginable, even the most negative consequences imaginable have been utterly unable to get her to change. Does that make sense?
[1:23:19] Yes.
[1:23:20] And so how could I possibly blame myself for not getting her to change? So it is impossible for you, based upon all of the empirical evidence, your father could not get her to change. Your stepfather could not get her to change. The seven or eight men she dated in her fifties could not get her to change, right? Right?
[1:23:45] Yeah.
[1:23:46] So, she chooses isolation, loneliness, and alcoholism over listening to a man and changing for the better. Does that make sense?
[1:23:57] Yeah. That makes sense.
[1:23:59] So, you cannot change her. Now, again, I think it's worth having the conversation, but that's just my opinion. It's obviously completely up to you.
[1:24:10] But, you've never seen anyone who can do anything to change and influence your mother for the better.
[1:24:23] Yeah.
[1:24:25] So if I see a man who's 250 pounds of pure muscle try to lift a giant rock and he fails, Does it make any sense to call myself weak for being unable as a child to lift that rock?
[1:24:49] No.
[1:24:50] If I have seen a procession of 10 big, strong adult males all struggle mightily for days to try and lift that rock or move that rock, and that rock will not lift and will not move. Does it make any sense for me as a child when I try to move that rock to say I'm weak?
[1:25:16] Definitely no.
[1:25:18] So no adult male has ever been able to get your mother to change. So you cannot call yourself weak or cowardly for not trying.
[1:25:40] Yeah man it's so many things going on in my head right now yeah.
[1:25:46] Sure spill I've been doing some.
[1:25:47] Talking I'm.
[1:25:48] Happy to listen and hear.
[1:25:49] Yeah I'm rotating again and again having that wish that my mother will change you know, But after our conversation, the chances that she will change, even after a conversation with her, I think I have to accept there are nearly zero chances that she will change. And afterwards, if she doesn't change, she shouldn't be able to be a part of our life, I think.
[1:26:31] Well, the mechanics of change are very interesting. And I know I just asked you for your thoughts, so I'll keep this very brief. The mechanics of change are very interesting. So what is it that causes people to change? Well, the first thing to accept change or to even have the possibility of changing, the first thing you need to do is accept a standard that is different from what you're doing, right? So you have a standard, and the reason you're calling me is you have a standard which says, I want to stop yelling at my wife, right?
[1:26:57] Yeah.
[1:26:57] So you have a standard that your behavior does not conform to, and you need to figure out how to improve. So if I'm overweight, I need to have a dietary and exercise standard that's going to cause a calorie deficiency that's going to cause my body to consume its own fat, right? So change requires that... You have a standard that is different from what you're doing. Does that make sense?
[1:27:31] Yes, it makes absolutely sense.
[1:27:33] In other words, you have to have a higher standard and be willing to criticize yourself. To say, I have a standard that is higher or different from my behavior, and I wish to move my behavior closer to the standard. So if I'm eating 5,000 calories a day, say, maybe I should try and get down to 4,000 or 3,000 or 2,000 or whatever it is, right? Now, the way that you know whether someone will change or not is, are they willing to accept that there is a standard of value that is different from their current behavior? And in order to do that, they have to be willing to have some level of criticism towards themselves. selves. Now, that doesn't mean self-attack. Right? So, that's the big question. And the way you know that is you say, does your mother have any standards of behavior by which her own... Sorry. Yeah. Does she have any standards of behavior by which her actual behavior can be criticized?
[1:28:45] Hmm. Yeah.
[1:28:51] And what are those standards by which her behavior can be criticized and she'll accept it.
[1:28:58] Oh she will accept it that's, so how should I pronounce it sorry I'm I'm a little bit...
[1:29:15] No, no, take your time. There's no rush. There's no rush at all.
[1:29:17] Off for the moment. Can you can you repeat the question.
[1:29:35] Again please so what standards of behavior, would your mother accept she's failing right so you have a standard of behavior called don't yell at my wife and you accept that you're failing at that and are looking to do better, So what standards of behavior, if you were to say to your mother, you're not doing this, and she would say, oh, you know what, you're right, I'm so sorry, let me figure out how to do better with that. What standards of behavior would your mother be willing to accept that she's not meeting? None, right?
[1:30:12] Everything she does is right.
[1:30:14] And anyone who interferes with what she wants to do is wrong and bad, right? Yeah so let me let me ask you this just pretend to be your mom for a minute or two if that's all right okay yeah okay so you pretend to be a mom so i call you up and you say hey mom i i gotta tell you like you gotta stop calling me in the middle of the night to to come pick you up from uh your parties like i'm trying to get some sleep i've got two kids uh you know my wife needs sleep and just whatever you have to do you got to take a cab or or a bus or but you you you can't do that anymore you have to stop that she.
[1:30:59] She will tell or in this case i will tell you okay uh see you are my son i have also done the same thing when you were younger when you were going to parties is, but it's okay, okay, then I will do it for my own, you know, on the passive-aggressive way.
[1:31:18] Okay, so, Mom, so you won't ever call me again in the middle of the night, unless there's some absolute emergency, but you won't call me just because you're drunk and want to get home. Now, do you think, Mom, do you think it's unfair for me to ask that?
[1:31:35] Yeah, yes.
[1:31:36] And why is that?
[1:31:39] Because I'm your mom. Yeah.
[1:31:42] Well, but are you saying that then there's no behavior that could ever be negative or that I should say no to? You have this magic wand called Mom that makes every behavior of yours perfect? I don't understand. I mean, it is kind of selfish to go drinking and then call up a new dad to come pick you up in the middle of the night, right? I mean, that's not very nice for me. So do you mean that there's nothing ever that you can do wrong?
[1:32:13] It's definitely not. So I'm in the role of my mom at the moment, right?
[1:32:19] Yeah, yeah.
[1:32:19] Okay. Then I will tell you I have done the same things for you when you were going out and drinking. And so I want you to come over and pick me up. So she will ignore everything else except her own needs. So she will ignore that I'm a freshly new.
[1:32:42] Okay, so your mother says, I came and picked you up when you were drinking as a teenager, right? And she did that for real, right?
[1:32:57] Sometimes, yes.
[1:32:58] What do you mean by sometimes?
[1:33:01] I can remember only two times she did that.
[1:33:04] Only two times, okay. And how many times have you had to do that for your mom or chosen to do that?
[1:33:10] Way more often. I can't even count it, to be honest.
[1:33:14] Dozens of times?
[1:33:16] Yeah, definitely.
[1:33:17] Okay. So then I would say, in talking to your mother, I would say, well, you chose to become a mother, and you chose to let me go out drinking, and I do remember two times that you picked me up, and so we're done with that. that, right? You picked me up two times and you chose to be a mother and you chose to take on those responsibilities and it only happened twice. It's more than paid off. You are being selfish because now you're saying, well, because I chose to be a mother and I picked you up two times, you must now pick me up forever and ever and ever, even though you are trying to be a parent yourself. So when you call me in the middle of the night, I'm tired the next day. I'm not as productive at work, I'm more stressed, and I'm less of a good parent. All for the sake of you saving a couple of euros in cab fare. That's selfish, mom, and it's not right.
[1:34:20] Okay. Then I will never call you again, and you shouldn't also call me again when you need something from me.
[1:34:28] Oh, so is it the case now that we can't, because I'm saying I want to put a limit on you calling me in the middle of the night because you're drunk. It's one thing when I'm a teenager, Mom, you're 60 years old. You should be past this ridiculous drinking until you can't get home. If you're saying, well, I'm behaving just as you did when you were 17 years old, therefore it's fine. Well, you're 60 years old, mom. This is ridiculous that you're calling your son to come pick you up because you're drunk at a party. This is embarrassing. This is immature. But is it the case that you're saying, because I'm setting a limit on you calling me up drunk at the age of 60 in the middle of the night, Because I'm setting a limit on that, we can now no longer ask each other for anything at all. Is that right?
[1:35:20] Yes.
[1:35:22] Okay, so we can never ever want anything from each other ever again because I'm setting one limit.
[1:35:28] Yeah.
[1:35:29] Okay. All right. So I will call you when I feel like it. I will be under no obligation to call you. I will call you when my heart says, I really want to have a wonderful conversation with my mother. And I will wait until that impulse comes up within me to call you. We accept that, right?
[1:35:54] Yeah. Okay?
[1:35:55] Yeah. Now, if you call me, and I don't, because I'm not enjoying this conversation. I think this is horrible, by the way. I think that you're punishing me for setting any kind of boundary by saying, basically, we can't ever have a relationship in any fundamental way, because I'm setting up one boundary that is not even that crazy. I mean, it's completely normal to not want to pick up your drunken mother, the grandmother of your children, in the middle of the night. So, I'm not enjoying this at all. I find this to be horrible, by the way. Now, not only if this is the deal, right? We can't have any preferences with each other. We can't need anything from each other. So I'm being punished for setting up some reasonable boundaries so that I can get some sleep.
[1:36:39] So not only, if this is the case, will I not call you unless I absolutely want to and anticipate a positive and happy conversation, conversation but also if you call me and i don't feel like answering the phone i will not pick it up unless i'm like oh i'm so thrilled and happy that my mother is calling uh so that that's the deal right the deal is we can't have any preferences we can't want we have no obligations to each other whatsoever so i'm now going to live going forward based upon what you're saying here and i i accept that. I understand that. So I am now going to live forward, going forward, as if you're just some person with no special interest in my heart, and I'm going to treat you as I would just about anybody else. And if I don't feel like picking up the phone, I won't. And if I don't feel like calling you, I won't. That's my understanding of what you're saying. Do I have that correct?
[1:37:39] Okay. Then let's do this this way.
[1:37:41] Okay, then I would just hang up on her, and I'd erase the fucking number. Honestly, I have no patience for that. I have no patience. When you try and set one reasonable boundary and the other person is just like, fuck you, you can't have anything from me then. It's like, okay. And then she's pretty clear, right?
[1:37:59] Yeah, but that's the way she would talk with me.
[1:38:02] I absolutely, I believe that. I believe that. I believe that and I'm really sorry. I'm incredibly sorry that your mother doesn't care. That's horrible. And I mean you see your wife with your children can you imagine anything like that.
[1:38:27] At the moment.
[1:38:28] Yeah I mean could you imagine your wife having anything any interaction like that with your kids, that if your wife cooks a meal and your kids say I don't like the taste she's like fine I'll never cook for you again ever.
[1:38:48] I don't want to even think about it.
[1:38:51] To be honest. No, it's impossible to imagine. Can you imagine that you're play-fighting with your child, and let's say you accidentally do something that gives a bruise to your child or hurts your child, just by accident, right? And your kid says, ow, dad, that hurt. And you say, well, fine, I'm never touching you again. That your child expressed preference and you threatened the entire relationship. Because your child is expressing a preference for how you behave.
[1:39:22] He never ever would behave in this way.
[1:39:25] Okay. So, bro, that's your standard. That's your standard. It's absolutely unacceptable to threaten an entire relationship when someone expresses a preference that you change your behavior. Now, you understand, because you can't negotiate with your mother, you can't negotiate with your wife. Because you haven't learned how. How do you negotiate? So, if I understand, if I remember correctly, and this was a while ago, so please correct me if i've gone astray your relationship with your wife got worse when your first child was born yeah right so she then moves in your mind from the category of wife and girlfriend to what sorry so when your wife gives birth to your child she moves just from the category of wife to the category of wife and? That's right. Mutter. Wife and mother, right? Mutter und Vater. Und Vater. So, mother and father. So, she now has moved from the category of wife to the category of mother, right?
[1:40:53] Yes.
[1:40:53] Now, can you negotiate with the category called mother?
[1:40:59] No.
[1:41:00] No. So you go from being able to reason with your wife to fighting with her, because she's moved from the category of wife to the category of mother, and you have all of this unresolved conflict with your mother. You can't negotiate with mothers, and so you fight with your wife. And your wife can't negotiate with her mother and father which is i think why she went no contact right seems like yeah well you should find out more about that in my humble opinion.
[1:41:45] Oh man i think i have to do a deep conversation maybe the last one with my mom, Yeah, but I have to do it.
[1:42:01] Well, your mother is very, I mean, in the role play, which I assume is very accurate, we tend to know our mothers better than anyone else, your mother is very, very angry and very, very cold.
[1:42:18] Yeah.
[1:42:18] I don't mean to overstep the stereotype. I don't mean to over-stereotype particular kinds of mothers. But uh she's she's full of rage that if you try to establish some reasonable boundary with her she will try to manipulate you and then when that fails she will make threats to the foundation of the relationship yeah.
[1:42:42] That's true yeah right.
[1:42:43] So there's no negotiation that's possible with someone like that it's impossible to negotiate so in even when i pointed out she says well fine fine, we can't need anything from each other ever again.
[1:42:56] So she's basically saying we're strangers. Okay, so then I don't owe you anything. You don't owe me anything, we don't owe each other anything, so if I just don't feel like picking up the phone, I won't. If I don't feel like calling, I won't. If I don't feel like inviting you over, I won't. I don't owe you any special consideration. And she's like, yep, let's do that. That's chilling. killing. That she's willing to throw away a multi-decade relationship because you don't want to spend the rest of your life picking her drunk arse up off the curb at two in the morning.
[1:43:33] So she's saying the relationship is utterly expendable to her. Like, I don't understand that. I'm just telling you straight up, as a human being with a heart, mind, and soul, I do not understand why somebody would be willing to just throw away the only substantial relationship she has left. Well, I guess she's got two brothers, but with you, right? Let's just talk about you and her, right? So that she would be willing to throw away a multi-decade relationship just to score some stupid point in a phone call. I consider that completely incomprehensible behavior. It's alien in a very foundational way to me. Because I would just, I would crap my pants if someone, like someone I really cared about, and they were really unhappy with me and they said, okay, if you continue doing this, like this relationship is going to fall apart. I'd be like, well, I really don't want that, so let's figure out what the heck I'm missing, right?
[1:44:40] Curious.
[1:44:40] Yeah, well, I'd be terrified and curious and desperate to fix it or solve it or whatever, right?
[1:44:47] Yes.
[1:44:49] If my daughter, not that she ever would, but if my daughter were to say, Dad, if you keep making jokes with waiters and waitresses, I'm never talking to you again. Like, not that she ever would. but I'd be like, well, damn, of course I'll stop that, and let's figure out what's going on, right? But I'd be just like, fine, fine, okay, yeah, go ahead. Ooh, that's weird. That's alien. That's eerie to me. That you'd just be like, nope, fine, yeah, okay, yeah, don't, that's fine, we know each other nothing, we'll treat each other as strangers. Fine, okay. That's so cold, it's zero Kelvin. It's minus Kelvin.
[1:45:46] Yeah, but you're absolutely right.
[1:45:51] And so that helplessness. People who are willing. So that's an ultimatum. She's saying, if you have any reasonable boundaries with me, our relationship is over. If you have any reasonable boundaries with me, if you have any criticisms of my behavior, our relationship is over. If you have any opinion that differs from my preferences, our relationship is over. Like that is some very, very deeply cold and strange stuff.
[1:46:34] That's absolute zero. And you can't ever negotiate with that. So this is why I sympathize, I really do, I sympathize to grow up with that, is so cold and appalling and so heartbreaking, because the purpose of parenting in many ways is to teach your children how to negotiate, because life is negotiation. Relationships are negotiation. Business is negotiation. And if you drop this nuclear hammer on your children by saying, if you ever try to negotiate with me, I will fuck you up. I will dump you in the snow. I will leave you behind. I will abandon you. I will not protect you. It's over.
[1:47:30] Well, you are training your children that they can't ever have needs, they can't ever have preferences, that they don't exist, and you are throwing them to the wolves. You're raising them as slaves and then putting them out into the free market. And I'm sure this shows up in work as well. Negotiation, can you sort of hold your own ground, try and find some sort of win-win or do you kind of freeze up?
[1:48:10] And then, when you have disagreements with your wife, and she's now in the category of mother, you can't negotiate. You can't find some win-win. It's win-lose. So who taught you win-lose? Well, your mother, and your father, and your stepfather, and your mother's boyfriends. They all taught you that certainly with regards to your mother, or the category mother, there's no win-win. There's no negotiation to mutual benefit. It is the economic equivalent is a mugging versus a trade so in a trade you there's win-win everybody walks away better off right you know the old example if i have a pen and you have a dollar and we exchange i want your dollar more than i want my pen and you want my pen more than then you want your dollar, so we both end up better off. That's win-win. But this is just a mugging. This is like, give me your shit, or I'll, you know, harm you.
[1:49:22] That is a mugging. That is violence. And all children experience threats of abandonment as death threats. All children experience threats of abandonment as death threats, because they are. They are death threats.
[1:49:44] If you're in solitary confinement and the guard stops bringing you food, you die.
[1:49:55] So I am very sorry about all of this. This doesn't have to have anything to do with your wife. But in order to be able to negotiate with your wife, you need to really clearly see how ugly this is on the part of your mother. To threaten the entire relationship because you set up some boundaries. Reasonable boundaries at that. Does that make sense?
[1:50:22] Absolutely. absolutely to be honest i never thought that you can open my eyes that much.
[1:50:31] Well i'm i'm just on the side of you as a child that's what i do in these calls i'm on the side of you as a child and this is why i didn't like the cowardice stuff and all of that right, as a whole because it vastly underestimates how much pressure you were under as a child child, for which I have massive... I mean, you see as a father how absolutely helpless and dependent your children are.
[1:50:56] They can't go anywhere.
[1:50:57] They can't make any choices. They didn't choose you. They didn't choose to be born. They didn't choose their environment, their family, their mother, their father, nothing. And so I'm just so sorry that this was your experience and how sad and unnecessary it all is on your mother's part. It doesn't have to be this way, but so many people choose to make it this way.
[1:51:22] I never ever want to treat my children nearly as like that, to be honest.
[1:51:28] Well, I appreciate that, but who's missing from this equation? Who's missing from this commitment?
[1:51:36] Yeah, it's on my hands to do this.
[1:51:39] Your wife.
[1:51:42] And she, of course, yes.
[1:51:44] You cannot treat your children any better than you treat your wife. You cannot treat your children, you say, well, I don't yell at my children, but I yell at my wife in front of my children, then you're yelling at your children. You cannot treat your children any better than you treat your wife.
[1:52:07] So, just focusing on finding something through which both you and your wife can negotiate and win-win. Your wife grew up isolated, and you grew up isolated, so you lack tens of thousands of hours of experience with negotiation. And you didn't even grow up with a neighborhood group of friends. So when I was a kid, you know, I was broke, and all my family was broke, but my friends and I, who were all broke, we would meet up and try and figure out something to do. So we would spend, you know, a quarter of the afternoon negotiating, and then three quarters of the afternoon doing stuff. But we'd have to try and figure out something that everyone wanted. We couldn't impose our will on each other. We didn't have any money, because if everyone's got money, you just go to the arcade or something, and you don't have to negotiate. But there's something about growing up poor with a group of friends that you have to negotiate. Now kids don't need to negotiate because they're all playing video games online, but the rules are all enforced, right? So if you want to say, oh, let's go do this, and yeah, I don't want to go do that. Well, how about this? And you try and find something that everyone's willing to live with. So I spent like a quarter of my childhood just negotiating. But you didn't have that with your friends. You didn't have that with your family. You lack skills in negotiation. Negotiation. And I sympathize with this, I really do. And in the absence of negotiation, all we have left are compliance or aggression.
[1:53:32] We either comply with somebody else, or we're aggressive. So you're compliant with your mother, and you're aggressive with your wife. And that's because you and your wife, I assume, lack negotiation skills. And as life gets more complex, particularly with children and careers, a lack of negotiation skills gets more and more vivid. So in school, you don't have to negotiate that much. You just do what the teacher says. When you're dating, you don't have to negotiate that much. But once you have kids and grandparents, then a lack of negotiation becomes a big problem. Problem so if i were in your shoes i would you know you could read books on negotiation there are lots of video lectures and series on negotiation maybe i'll do a series or two or whatever it is right but learning how to negotiate is one of the most foundational life skills for success with your kids with your wife at work with just about everyone and your mother completely torpedoed your ability to negotiate by going straight to well that's it there's nothing it's over Good luck, kid. So, that would be my suggestion is to really focus on trying to find ways to negotiate so that you don't have to intimidate.
[1:54:45] I will do.
[1:54:47] All right. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
[1:54:52] Not at the moment, I think.
[1:54:54] All right. Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[1:54:58] Yeah, if this is okay for you on Skype.
[1:55:00] No, I'm not sure okay. I would like that. I would request that. I would appreciate that. And, you know, big, big hug to you and your family. Big hug to your kids and to your wife. and of course you can listen to this and have her listen to this as much as you want and if there's anything I can do for your family I am at your service.
[1:55:22] Thank you very very very much Stefan for your time, for your help for your nice words and eye-opening words I think you helped me out a lot.
[1:55:34] You're very welcome and I appreciate the conversation and perhaps we'll talk again yeah I will keep you updated thanks man thanks a.
[1:55:42] Lot have a nice day bye.
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