0:03 - A Journey Through Trauma
1:12 - Relationship Reflections
2:52 - The Impact of Therapy
4:11 - Struggles with Maternal Instinct
5:42 - Seeking Acceptance and Understanding
8:06 - Childhood Memories and Family Dynamics
12:11 - Growing Up in Conflict
13:52 - The Weight of Expectations
16:03 - Unpacking the Past
17:45 - Dating Challenges and Secrets
21:46 - The Complexity of Love
22:54 - Navigating Emotional Barriers
25:17 - High School Relationships
28:09 - The Influence of Control
31:16 - Searching for Validation
34:20 - The Yoga Cult Experience
44:16 - Breaking Free from Manipulation
46:43 - Discovering Self-Acceptance
48:19 - Understanding Emotional Connections
49:22 - The Cycle of Regret
54:02 - Insights from a Troubled Relationship
56:32 - Revisiting Choices and Consequences
59:26 - Reflections on a Difficult Marriage
1:08:30 - Emerging from Stagnation
1:10:33 - Rebuilding After Trauma
1:18:25 - The Weight of Responsibility
1:21:39 - Understanding Infidelity
1:28:13 - Recognizing Patterns in Relationships
1:28:48 - The Journey Begins
1:29:46 - Breaking Free
1:34:37 - The Parental Influence
1:49:44 - Career Aspirations
2:03:02 - Facing the Past
2:06:36 - The Cost of Dysfunction
2:13:37 - Confronting Lies
2:42:15 - Rediscovering Joy
2:51:55 - A New Path Forward
The conversation begins with a caller who shares her challenging upbringing as a war child from Southeastern Europe, born amid the chaos of a civil war in 1995. She reflects on her parents' marriage shaped by the tumultuous environment, revealing her father's military service and the subsequent struggles her family faced in the post-war era, such as financial hardships and health-related issues. Born into a context of suffering, she narrates how these early experiences led her to view her circumstances as "normal" for a long time.
Now in her thirties and navigating the complexities of adulthood, including a tumultuous relationship with her ex-boyfriend, she finds herself grappling with her past and how it affects her present. Despite her commendable academic achievements in architecture, including a bachelor's and master's degree, and her current position as a PhD student, she admits to a feeling of emptiness and a lack of direction. She details the cyclical nature of her romantic relationship with her ex-boyfriend, highlighting their differences in lifestyle choices and aspirations, along with her internal struggles about motherhood and family life.
A significant part of the conversation engages with her experiences in therapy and a previous yoga cult that deeply influenced her life between 2018 and 2020. She describes the practices and beliefs propagated by the yoga teacher that stunted her personal relationships and self-discovery, creating a poignant contrast against her current understanding. The caller describes a sense of regret over past decisions and reveals patterns of emotional manipulation in her relationships, including infidelity and emotional unavailability.
As the conversation evolves, the caller expresses her fears surrounding motherhood, confronting societal expectations about family life, and battling perfectionism. She feels alienated in her peer group, as most of her friends are settling down and starting families while she remains ambivalent about her own future. She articulates her deep-rooted fears of inadequacy and self-doubt, which stem from her childhood influences and experiences with emotional neglect.
Stefan explores the caller's relationship with her parents, bringing to light the dysfunction and emotional detachment that permeate their family dynamic. He leads her to recognize the patterns of emotional abuse and neglect that have affected her sense of self-worth throughout her life and posits questions that challenge her to consider the unhealthy ties she maintains with her family.
The dialogue takes a crucial turn as Stefan emphasizes the importance of honesty in relationships, both with herself and with others, tying them to her ambitions and aspirations for the future. He points out that her tendency to avoid uncomfortable truths about her family is directly related to her emotional barriers in forming new and healthy relationships. Their conversation reiterates the notion that one's past does not have to dictate future choices, urging her to confront and disentangle herself from her family's dysfunction to pursue a more fulfilling life.
As the call concludes, the caller expresses gratitude for the insights provided, realizing the necessity of establishing boundaries and focusing on healthier relationships. Together, they reflect on the caller's journey towards self-actualization and empowerment, culminating in a call for radical honesty with oneself and others. The discussion underscores the idea that personal growth often necessitates painful yet essential changes, especially regarding familial ties and romantic relationships, to foster a genuinely fulfilling life.
[0:00] I've been trying to reach out to you, and I'm finally ready to ask for your help.
[0:03] I was born in Southeastern Europe in 1995 during the Civil War. My parents got married and had us. My brother and I, we were born in the middle of the worst period in the country. My father was called to serve in the military, just like all men at the time. I haven't really processed the whole chapter of my life because it was always part of me, and I have always considered it normal.
[0:27] But now, as a grown woman, I'm facing a series of challenges, and I believe all of it has left its mark on me. And after the war, we didn't have any money, everything was ruined, and there wasn't a job to be found. My dad went to other country to work as a waiter. My mom was stressed and didn't have milk, so I basically drank cow milk as a baby. Luckily, that was still a time when we had a small field and a few animals, so we could have domestic food. Right now, I live in another city, still in the same country, and my parents, brother and sister, they live in the family house back in the city we were born in. I have finished bachelor and master's studies in architecture. Right now, I am a PhD student. I work as a senior teaching assistant at the university.
[1:12] I am renting an apartment with my now ex-boyfriend. We dated in high school and came together to the faculty, broke up, then we started dating again. Broke up after three and a half years, we paused for five years, and then two years ago, we started dating again. But now we have finally decided that our relationship is going nowhere. Our values and life choices are completely different. I have healthy habits. He doesn't. He'd been smoking since he was 13 years old. He likes to play video games, doesn't like to walk, doesn't like sports, and likes to smoke weed.
[1:49] Every weekend but he wants to have kids and family he's very intelligent one of the smartest people i know maybe even the smartest i know but he's also very lazy and his family ruined his will to do something useful with his life me on the other hand i don't want kids right now and i know that's wrong because i'm 30 years old i want to have that maternal instinct and i want to overcome my fears and everything that makes me think that i'm not ready capable or right to have kids. All my life, I loved school. I always wanted to be the best in class, even if I wasn't during elementary, middle, and high school. I ended up as the best student in generation on my bachelor and master studies. As a teenage girl, I dreamed of being a strong, independent woman, just like the propaganda wanted us to be. That was the only thing that mattered to me. I wanted to have money, so I would never have to experience all the things I had to face during my childhood. I ended up working from 7 a.m. To 9 p.m., working three jobs and losing my mind.
[2:53] Since 2021, I have been in therapy and I have changed five different therapists and three different types of therapy.
[3:01] Since my partner and I decided to go separate ways, I feel like I'm losing everything, like I'm not able to continue living, like everything I have worked for so hard was for nothing, and I could not find a single purpose. I was also part of a yoga cult from 2018 to 2020. COVID saved me. We had a teacher who told us that we had to transform ourselves, go to fifth dimension, etc.
[3:29] During this time, we were forbidden to have sex or any kind of relationship. He told us not to have children until we reached this level of consciousness. Many of the people who still go there are in their 40s. They have no families, but they are all highly educated. Many of them are campus-teaching professors and have a PhD.
[3:48] I have written a lot and yet I'm not sure I have said anything. My life has been a disaster since high school. I had no one to share my feelings with and ended up dating older men and being their mistress. The only real relationship I ever had was with the partner I'm leaving now. And I have been cheating on him. That was the main reason of us breaking up before.
[4:11] I always thought that he was the one because he was the only one I had real connection with. Now, I realize that all of that was just a fiction in my head and his head, and that all the differences between us are huge. I hope this email finds you well, and I hope my story is worth your attention. I have listened to you, and I'm also a little bit afraid about this conversation because you are honest, and I may face some things that I don't want to face because they are out of my comfort zone. Whatever happens, I'm still happy that I put all this in writing.
[4:45] I say, born in a war, but afraid of a chap with me. I appreciate that. I must loon large. Okay, so tell me what you think about what you wrote, and what's your goal in the conversation?
[4:58] Well, yeah, I have read this now because when I was writing that, I didn't save it, so it was a bit coming back to that moment when I was writing it. I was very depressed at the time, at that moment, And right now I'm not living with my ex-boyfriend anymore. We went separate ways. The main conversation, well, I guess my main problem now is the fact that I don't have that maternal instinct. Because I've been listening to you for a long time. And a lot of your conversations are pretty based on family values. And I really think that something is wrong with me because I don't want children.
[5:42] I'm afraid of children. I'm afraid of that responsibility in my life and I think I want to be a good parent because of all the things that I think about having children. But also I'm aware that I haven't found a real partner for having family with and I am surrounded by people who are either getting married or are expecting children. So I kind of feel lost and I feel that something is wrong with me because why am I the only one different from all of them?
[6:17] Uh also i have a lot of problems with the perfectionism uh and you know as i mentioned with with what uh i'm perfectionist perfectionism okay sorry go ahead yeah really sick one like i when i was a teenager i thought that's cool like oh yeah i i am perfectionist but now i i see that's a big problem because well everything is like, everything is bad because of it like my my life my habits my my relationships and i have a problem with uh being self-confident like i i proved that i am smart but i i don't think so like i'm afraid that someone will tell me that i'm not intelligent enough and i guess that's the reason i always chased so to say intelligent men and i always um i didn't see all the wrong sides of their lives i just saw that they are intelligent and i chased him like crazy well it's not really perfectionism.
[7:24] It's a fear of criticism which is what you fear for me and this is why you pick.
[7:27] Yeah under.
[7:28] Functioning boyfriends or boyfriends who can't criticize you because their own lives are such a mess so it's not really perfectionism it's just a fear.
[7:34] Yeah of criticism yeah that's correct so if you can hide things like.
[7:40] Have a boyfriend at home that's kind of a loser then you don't get criticized by that because people don't know so okay.
[7:45] Exactly yeah so.
[7:48] Obviously i'm incredibly sorry that you were born during a wartime and you know two over two million people displaced a hundred thousand people slaughtered you know this tripartite ethnic uh warfare was just brutal of course uh as you know infinitely better than i So tell me a little.
[8:06] Bit about.
[8:06] Your childhood and your parents and all of that.
[8:11] Yeah, well, as I already mentioned, they got married during war. And I think and I know because I talked especially with my mom. She always tells me that if it wasn't for war, they wouldn't get married. So they never got along as long as I remember.
[8:30] Sorry, how does the war make them get married?
[8:34] Well, you know, it's weird because a lot of people, we are called war children, like all the generations from 1992 to 1996 that we were born at. Because, you know, when people are focused on survival, I guess they tend to get married and have children because there's nothing left. I mean, it's sick need, but it really happened. Like, I am a witness of that.
[9:02] Um so yeah they they got married because it started being really bad and they didn't know what to do i guess i don't know because they had two children in one year and it was really bad like the bombs were everywhere they never moved from the place and etc so yeah i just been talking to my mom about the first five years of my life because i don't remember it and she told me that she was at home and yeah because she she didn't work so she has spent a lot of time with us, but there were some situations that i remember from the stories around me that for example she left with my brother to the other city to meet her brother and i was four months old and i i remember they're talking about it like laughing and like oh when i left you you got sick for four days you couldn't be without your mother but like yeah i was four months old what do you expect from me so these things happened and they weren't considered as bad things yeah.
[10:06] You end up calling the cow mother.
[10:08] Yeah yeah basically and i didn't even know that i wasn't breastfed i just found out about it earlier so my mom told me oh yeah i didn't breastfed you i i was afraid because of the war or whatever and also uh one thing when i was born my mother told me that she went we lived nearby the hospital that's why this place was well, safe during war like it wasn't bombed but around it it was bombing so she i woke up at like 5 a.m in the morning and she got by her feet one kilometer at the hospital and she was basically alone she gave birth of me so yeah um anyway my brother and me we were always together people thought we were twins because one year is nothing our grandma was one that took care of us the most our father was always working so he basically didn't have any.
[11:12] Um contribution to our to raising us i guess because he was always working and then he would come home he was also alcoholic i i didn't know that like i i knew that he was drunk at times but now I know that he was definitely an alcoholic when we when I was five years old they opened a small real restaurant here it's called like that but it was basically a bar where some well sick sick people would come and drink when I say sick I mean all of those people affected by war I mean none of them would ever, visit a therapist because hey that's not normal in eastern europe even now so yeah he started drinking and i remember those days were really terrible here and his him and my mother were fighting a lot i i don't remember them getting along ever uh.
[12:12] At that time when they opened that restaurant, they both started working. So I remember times when our grandmother was taking care of us and we would just stay up late and wait for our parents, I mean, especially our mom, to come home. And then she wouldn't come because we would fall asleep and she would come late and we would go to school. She would be at work. So I remember that time, like from 5 to 14, even mom was never home. Uh we were well we were used to father not being at home but mom that was like not normal so yeah i missed her a lot uh our grandmother was really strict she was beating us i mean that's also one thing that was considered normal here because if you don't beat your children they will be spoiled but that was extreme here and it still is like when you say oh i want to i will not be beating my children, they would be like, oh, you will. When they scream, you will see and stuff like that.
[13:13] Sorry, what do you mean by beating? What does that mean?
[13:16] Well, it would be spanking. I remember that. Not like literally beating, but we would be yelled at and she would get the rod from the tree or something and she would beat us on our asses.
[13:35] Would that be bare skin or through clothing?
[13:38] True clothing, never bare skin. Yeah, I don't remember that.
[13:42] And how painful were the beatings?
[13:45] Well, it was pretty painful because I remember us crying. I mean, also because we were afraid, but also because it hurt.
[13:53] And I remember that we were really afraid of our grandma. It was always some kind of tension with her, even though when we would be playing with her, I mean, she really, she teached us a lot, like some songs. She was very, she wanted to read with us and stuff like that, but it was never relaxed with her. We were always afraid. On edge, yeah. Yeah, it was always tension. My grandfather, mom's father, we lived at the house of my mom's parents, so he was also an alcoholic. My mom claims that he started drinking after the war, but I think he was a construction worker, so he also traveled a lot. I remember that he worked a lot in Asia when she was a child. So she tells me that he wasn't drinking, but I remember some stories when she told me that he actually was drinking when he'd come back home. And for three days, he would be free and he would be drinking. So, yeah, he was also an alcoholic and my father...
[15:00] But it may have gotten worse, obviously.
[15:02] Yeah, it got really worse. And my grandma and grandpa, they haven't been... Uh communicating at all since i know like they lived in different um in different parts of the house and i have never seen them talking and i wasn't aware of it like you know when you live and in some neighborhood or whatever and it just seems normal and then after when some years came by came by i just realized that nothing was normal about my parenthood and everything that i experience so they were basically divorced but they lived in the same house just different parts of the house so and also my grandfather my father's father he was also an alcoholic and he was really an alcoholic he would couldn't function without alcohol so yeah it was really a big part of my life i'm trying to think of the.
[16:01] Number of eastern european stereotypes that are.
[16:03] Not being destroyed.
[16:04] By this conversation and violent.
[16:06] Babushkas and drunken fathers and grandfathers yeah it was actually normal like when i started listening to you and you know the whole part of that not being normal it was like well actually my my life wasn't normal like it was normal for people when you say today when you talk to someone and you're speaking about construction workers they would say oh well that's the job like they're drinking because of their job that's normal like it's it's really sick so yeah i remember at high school in high school that was the worst period that my father was drinking um and the worst but the worst thing was that he he was sleeping under my um so we have two levels of the house so his room was just underneath mine and i remember him coming home late drunk and he was moaning and he was yelling and i was very afraid and i was just imagining imagining if i will find him alive in the morning so i i thought he will heal himself or something like that and i also was writing journal back then, And I remember writing down that I don't want to have a father if he's like this. And basically, I hated him all the time. So we didn't have any kind of relationship, even though we lived in the same house. I just didn't want to communicate with him.
[17:29] We wouldn't be talking for a few months. And then he would suck up to us all, you know, like he would be acting nice. And then it would be happening again. So now he stopped. drinking. I don't live with them anymore.
[17:45] Sorry, now meaning when?
[17:50] Well, I think since I went to college, something like that. How long ago was that? Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, like 12 years now, I think. But it's not like he's sober all the time he had also some moments like once or twice in in a year he would also get gotten drunk or whatever but yeah so for 12 years how.
[18:17] Did he get along with your brother.
[18:18] Uh him and my brother or me and my brother you and your brother sorry sorry.
[18:24] No sorry let's do your father and your brother then we'll do you and your brother.
[18:27] Okay so well my brother is very very emotionally um, disconnected let's say or unavailable uh we he and my father i remember them having a fight maybe 10 or 12 years ago i think uh after that fight my father stopped drinking because my brother uh grew up well basically he's two meters tall um and i think he he um punched him or or or they had your brother punched brother my brother my father yeah he came home drunk or he humiliated him somewhere or because i remember also times when my father would come in public when we were having my brother and me we had the same um company like we we hanged out together and i remember a few times my father would come he would pee himself or something like that he would not be stabilized you know he would go around and nag and he was terrible so my yeah like the pick.
[19:39] A fight drunk yeah.
[19:40] Yeah yeah something like that uh so my brother was like um swallowing all of it like he didn't express anything at and at some point he just exploded and that happened like 12 years ago when he punched him and i think he stopped drinking after that i think that was a moment and as uh their relationship well he was never very close i think because he was absent a lot and we were always closer close to our mom or closer and i also remember times when my father would come home and he wouldn't enter the house he would sleep in the car and we would like a lock house or something like that we wouldn't let him come in and i also think mom uh well somehow influenced all of it you know if the father is coming drunk let's hide or whatever i mean he wasn't beating us he was either crying when he comes home or he was moaning or he was fighting with her and i remember also begging them to stop fighting but that never worked so yeah their relationship wasn't very close they they never talked or had a real conversation Even now, my brother is pretty much ignoring him and he is not taking him seriously, whatever he tells or...
[21:07] Communicate with him about and me and my brother uh we have i would say weird relationship but i guess you you would find it very logical we we are very close like we have to hear and talk almost every day but we never talk about emotions like our topics are training uh cars or whatever I don't know, jobs, and what did you do today? Like, literally, that's all we talk about. And I really want to change that. And I was planning for a very long time.
[21:46] I have never had the courage to just sit and talk to him about some real stuff.
[21:52] What do you think would happen if you did? What's your fear?
[21:56] Yeah, my fear, I guess the coldness, because my mother was always emotionally unavailable. So up until five years ago when I went, or maybe 10 years ago when I went to study, to college, she wouldn't even kiss me or hug me. I just don't remember this kind of relationship with my mom. And my brother is a lot like that. They have the same way of handling things. So I guess I'm afraid that he would break or he would just reject me. Or he would, I don't know, I'm not sure. I guess these are fears. Because whenever I approached my mom, she would just put a wall and everything that I wanted her to feel just reflects on me. So I guess that's a fear, like being rejected or not being able to reach him.
[22:55] But I definitely have to try.
[22:58] Okay. So what happened with your dating life in your teens?
[23:02] Yeah that's that's very terrible part of my life when i as i told you i was a very good student all the time and i i always was when you say a kid to be admired or everyone would like to have that kid but when i went to high school i basically as i always told you my mom and i would never have any kind of conversation about boys or about any kind of intimate things.
[23:34] Obviously and I would never talk about her with her about boys I the only thing that was forbidden that was like known or public in our house is that I'm not supposed to have boyfriend until I don't know, maybe ever, but at that point, I think I tried telling her about some boy and she would be, oh no, what boy are you talking about? She was literally rejecting the fact that I would even like a boy, especially having one. So yeah, I was hiding that from her, obviously, and I was hiding that from everyone. So when I went to high school, I was pretty tall and I guess attractive in the high school. So, well, boys were, especially older boys, were after me. And I was a member of a folklor dance ensemble. So there were a lot of older boys. And I remember one of my first, well, let's say boyfriends was 11 years older than me. So I was 15. he would be 26 at times. And obviously, I didn't know that boys at that time were only after one thing. And I was, I don't know what I was like, but I just find it.
[25:04] Was that legal?
[25:06] Well, no, but no one cared about it. I mean, yeah, I remember the first time when we met, he asked to kiss me.
[25:18] And I was like, well, you are 11 years older than me. I don't think you are supposed to kiss me. And nothing happened. I didn't have sex with him or anything, but I was dating him for a while. And when I find out that he was talking around that he actually had sex with me, I broke up, and I told him that I don't want to see him again.
[25:41] Wow. The guy who kisses a 15-year-old turns out to be immature. Whatever next.
[25:47] Yeah, it was terrible, especially for me, and I didn't talk to anyone about it.
[25:53] You didn't talk to your parents about it, right?
[25:55] No one, not even a friend, because I felt I would be judged.
[26:00] Okay, so what's wrong with being judged? Did you have that feeling early? Like where did the fear of judgment come from.
[26:06] Well i guess i guess i would connect it with my grandmother the most because i'm even my mother i mean like judgment she always, yeah beating and yelling and cursing and i remember me and my brother playing sega mega you know the game yeah and we were hiding i mean we were basically uh.
[26:29] All day outside and when it's raining or something and we cannot go outside we would play that and she would hear that we are playing and she would yell at us like what are you doing stop doing that i mean we we weren't doing anything she was just like she she had problem with us playing silent game like i remember that you when you push the button on the joystick it would click you know and she would say stop clicking it bothers me like just an example of of my grandmother so i guess that was it but not just that it was also the feeling that i i will not i as a kid i had problems adjusting to the company or friends i i had problems with making friends i was lying a lot like really a lot and i still do that like unconsciously and then i just tell myself what are using like i was lying about the most basic things for example i was a good student i was getting a's all the time and sometimes i would just come home and tell my mother that i got an a so i always wanted attention i guess i wanted to be praised i wanted to be i don't know i want people to convince me that you want yeah well so i was also lying a lot in when my friends were there and i was rejected a lot you know the kid that no one will choose when some games is on.
[27:58] Game is on or whatever like i would always be rejected so i guess that feeling was very very scary when i was older and if i tell someone sorry but why.
[28:10] I mean you were athletic right so why would you be.
[28:13] Rejected i don't know i remember my teacher telling me i i was at some kind of race or something and she i would i that really hurts me now and i came and i told her i was racing and i was like fifth out of i don't know 50 people that were racing and she would tell me oh well you're clumsy how could you go to the race i mean i remember my teacher was really really big a um influence on me I would say that the first teacher you know the one the five grades that you have one teacher so people actually considered me clumsy so even though I was always doing some kind of sports especially now I'm now I don't feel clumsy anymore but back at that time I felt because everybody but I guess I actually was I don't know I mean I remember my therapist when I was dealing with something like this before and he told me that as a child as a child when someone tells you that you are clumsy that's all you know so i guess that that i forced myself to believe that or i don't know i'm not sure and i also i was lying a lot and maybe at that moment at that point i didn't i i thought that no one knows but everybody knew because later when i like rewind all of it all of the events.
[29:39] I remember people telling me, well, yesterday told us this and now you're telling us that. We'll decide. So yeah, obviously they didn't like me because I was lying.
[29:49] Okay, got it.
[29:51] Yeah but also i think it was a lot in my head not just well.
[29:55] No i mean you you weren't picked right.
[29:57] Yeah i wasn't picked yeah.
[30:00] Okay got it all right so what happened after the creepy 26 year old.
[30:06] Yeah after the creepy 26 year old it would it gotten even worse yeah i i think i dated one guy that was my age and we were together for like seven days and he cheated on me after 10 days and I pretended that I wanted to break up anyway. So then we kissed or something like that happened. I was 15 also. And then after that, I started dating a 10 years older guy who had girlfriends. So that was a very bad thing. and i kind of why.
[30:44] Was it because you couldn't uh get have much in common with the people your own age or what do you think that was.
[30:51] About well i guess i mean i like being with that guy because he was telling me some stories about his life he was very interesting very popular uh everybody liked him so i i remember i didn't even like the part when we would kiss or i don't know cuddle or whatever, I liked talking to him, just like, just talking to him and being like understood.
[31:17] And when I go, when I think about it now, I think I miss talking to my parents. Like, can it be something like that? Like I wanted to talk with someone who is older, who would protect me, who would be there for me.
[31:32] Well, the protection is definitely there. Yeah. The protection is definitely there.
[31:37] Yeah.
[31:39] So, yeah, I mean, your kids will gravitate towards whoever gives them affection. I mean, we're honestly, we're ducks. Like, you know, we've raised dozens of ducks in this household and you get the baby ducks, the ducklings, and they just follow you. They just trail after you. It's not love. They're just like, oh, you're a big thing that moves, so I'm going to follow you. Because that's protection. The only chance of protection they have, right?
[32:01] Definitely.
[32:02] So, yeah, whoever is going. And, of course, the problem is that you have a lot of pent-up need for affection. This is the case for young women right you have a lot of pent-up need for affection and then when you reach sexual maturity you can get attention and and affection based upon sexual access and i'm not saying that you were providing sexual access but even the potential for sexual access so then it becomes kind of a shortcut and this is why this is why women who are distant from their fathers tend to date earlier and date older men because their bodies are, or their souls in a sense, their flesh is hungry for protection. And if you're not getting it from your father, then you have to get it from some other man and then instead of it being, father love it becomes bisexualized.
[32:52] Yeah yeah definitely and i remember situations in my childhood when someone of the children uh would do something to me and i would come back home and tell my mom and she would be oh these are just children things like i don't want to deal with it and some parents would come at my house to like curse at me and my mom would never do that or my father especially.
[33:18] Sorry, why would the mothers come and curse at you?
[33:20] Because I was, I don't know, I did something to this girl. I punched her or something like that. And then I ran back to home and I was hiding because I was afraid. And afterwards, I mean, these girls were very problematic. Also, I guess I was also problematic at some point, but no one liked these girls in the neighborhood. And they were always causing problems and lying a lot. So I guess they also, So we had something in common. So I remember them threatening me or something, and I would come home and tell my mom about it. And she would be like, oh, I don't want to get in the middle of it. You are children. You go and deal with it by yourself. So I would never have any kind of, I don't know, attention when it comes to my friends. It would always be like, there are kids. I'm an adult. I have nothing to do with it. And other adults would come and deal with their problems, but my mom would never do that.
[34:20] Maybe I also did those things to get her to do something like that, but she would never do that. So I don't know.
[34:28] Okay. So then just if you can get me sort of mid to late teens dating.
[34:34] I'm sorry, can you repeat?
[34:36] Yeah, just sort of mid to late teens, what was happening with your dating life.
[34:40] Yeah uh so well basically when i finished the relationship with the 10 years older guy i also didn't have sex with him but it was close pretty close to it we were grumping or whatever but i never felt the the the fact that you told earlier i i didn't feel any any kind of hormones or horniness or whatever i just didn't feel any of it i just wanted to be with these people like just be and talk like literally i remember that i was almost asexual like i don't i didn't feel anything when we would touch or kiss so after that um i so.
[35:20] You didn't feel anything but you didn't feel disgust or desire or like it was just like neutral like.
[35:26] Like when your gum gets.
[35:28] Put to sleep at the dentist just nothing.
[35:31] Just nothing i mean i felt safe and good when we would be together it would feel good like but not excitement not disgusting disgusting there's nothing nothing just just like comfort and i i thought i was in love for example with that guy that was 10 years older than me because i i i thought about him a lot but i i would never think about him sexually like i would never imagine us kissing or whatever so yeah after that i i had the best friend who was like in love with me and he would always tell me that always tell me that but i didn't like him and of course like it always happens with i mean not always happens but i know a lot of examples of that he he got got a girlfriend and she told him that he couldn't be friends with me anymore and of course at that point i started falling in love with him i was 17 yeah i'm sorry how old how.
[36:32] Old to see.
[36:32] I was 17 and he was 18 that was the first one that was near my age okay uh so yeah uh i i started chasing him and we were again i was again a mistress so yeah he was cheating on her while he was with me and i asked him to leave her and he would tell me like no i want i would not like to leave her because if i leave her you would also leave me something like that probably so we were yeah we were seeing seeing each other for a while and i at that point i lost my virginity because i kind of thought that if i sleep with him i guess he would leave her but he didn't leave her also um i didn't like that moment i didn't enjoy it and one important thing that maybe i can mention now.
[37:24] I remember when i one of my first interview podcast that i listened of yours was a guy that was raped by his cousin or something like that so i at that point i remember that something similar happened to me oh gosh uh yeah i mean it wasn't really raping but um i had a a first cousin like my father had a sister and his sister had a daughter she was like maybe six months older than me and i remembered that she kind of um touched me and i remember once at my own home she would close she closed the door even locked it it was these woods it was dark i think i was four or five, um i remembered that vividly she uh jumped on me she hold my hands she was stronger than me even even.
[38:22] Uh though i was taller and older but she was stronger um and i wasn't older i was younger but she was a stronger and i was taller whatever she um she would jump on me she would hold my hands and i remember telling her let's get out of the room and she would tell me be quiet be quiet, and she would perform when i rewind it now she would perform like sexual action we were we were dressed she would i think at that time we were dressed do you mean like dry humping.
[38:55] Is that what it's called.
[38:56] Yeah something like that yeah something like that uh i mean we were really really small i mean young when i told this to my friend she's psychotherapist she was like well i don't understand how she did it when i like why would she do that and i remember listening to your podcast and you told said something like that that she someone did it to her because she was obviously really young or sorry how old was she we were five i guess okay before we we.
[39:33] Started school i also remember her um telling me we were in the hallway and the bathroom was nearby my father i think he went or someone some guy went into bathroom and she would force me oh come on let's peek through the uh keyhole let's see his thingy and i was like what are you talking about i was really really disgusted by that and i was afraid and i also remember later on maybe we were six uh we were at her home at her house my mom and her mom were outside and i was playing with some toy and it was interesting to me and she would tell me oh let's let's do something else she uh removed my clothes i think i i was left in the undershirt or something like that and i remember just laying down watching at some wall or something and just wanting it to to stop and she would also perform same thing that she did when we were younger and her mom entered and she saw it And she kicked her and me out of the house. And my mom, she didn't tell anything to my mom. And we just went home.
[40:49] I literally forgot all about it just until six years ago. And I remember later on when we were like 10, I also liked it. She also did it and I started liking it. It's horrible. And I remember trying to do that with another friend or cousin later on. Uh, anyway, I am still really disgusted by anything that has anything to do with sex. And I guess that's obviously the reason I always felt.
[41:28] Sorry, because of the, I wouldn't, I wouldn't exactly call it sex play, but because of the, you know, it's sort of halfway between sexual reenactment and playing doctor that you had with this woman, this girl when she was five and you were a similar age, right?
[41:41] Yeah. Yeah.
[41:42] Okay. And I apologize for my denseness. but sexual reenactments or play or something like that it's not unknown among children i'm not saying it's the healthiest thing in the known universe but it's not unknown.
[41:55] And.
[41:56] I'm trying to figure out and again forgive me for my.
[41:58] Lack of understanding.
[42:00] I'm trying to sort of figure out what it was that made sex horrible in in this way.
[42:06] I don't know i i also think that it was something that would never be a topic in my home like it was forbidden to talk about it i remember once my my my brother would bring up something like that and my mom would curse at him and tell him what are you talking about shut up blah blah blah so i i don't know maybe i just i just invented it now um but i i i always felt dirty when i do it i remember when i was thinking about sex when i was teenager It was like, okay, if I sleep with more than one guy, I would be a whore. Like it was the effect for me. So, um, it was always, I, I never, so I, I was with this boyfriend and we were living together and I would never be able to relax or anything like that. It was always like, okay, I'm doing something that I'm not supposed to do. I also remember my mom telling me when I was in high school, um, she, she was like dreaming about me being pregnant and she would come in the morning and curse at me and yell at me now i wasn't sure what she's talking about and she told me oh i was dreaming about you being pregnant i wanted to kill you and at that time i had a boyfriend the same one that i was with now, uh and she was like literally um giving me lectures about something that i even didn't even do like she was doing so but.
[43:31] I still don't quite get where did.
[43:33] You first start.
[43:34] To get the feeling that sex was gross or disgusting.
[43:41] Yeah, well, I guess. I mean, the only logical answer to that would be that it was because of these older men wanting to do that with me, and I didn't want it. No, no, but sorry.
[43:53] And again, the not wanting to do it comes first.
[43:57] Yeah, yeah.
[43:59] And none of this is a criticism. I'm just really curious where this might have come from.
[44:06] I don't know maybe also because my first experience with it was with the man that wasn't actually my boyfriend or i i i really want to know because.
[44:17] The disgust was before that right.
[44:18] Yeah it was so.
[44:20] Where does the disgust come from, i mean uh you know some some girl miming some sex when you're five uh distasteful i maybe uh but but it's not.
[44:36] To me and again i'm.
[44:38] Not a woman so maybe it's different but i don't.
[44:40] Quite get.
[44:41] How this is like sex is disgusting from there.
[44:45] Yeah yeah i don't i also the only thing that now that pops up on my mind was um when we were children i remember that me and my brother we were batting together i mean we were small but i think it also went on when we were a bit older like maybe six or five six ish something like that and i remember we were playing around and the kids would start the topic about testicles or something like that and i yeah yeah, next next is.
[45:18] Fart jokes right but you don't.
[45:20] Find farts.
[45:21] To be disgusting right.
[45:22] Yeah exactly you're really right uh and i think i i mentioned something like is it like this and then one friend would tell me oh how do you know it you saw your brothers yeah yeah you saw it yeah they're just teasing yeah but i felt horrible at that moment at that point okay so let's let's let's i don't want to wait too.
[45:42] Much of your time.
[45:43] Uh would you like the answer yeah i would okay it's your mother being.
[45:47] Feeling disgusted at your father.
[45:49] Yeah come on you're so right come on he's.
[45:54] Coming home he's drunk and like all drunk men he has few.
[45:57] Inhibitions and.
[45:58] He might be horny and he's pouring at her with his stinky breath and and his unwashed armpits and i assume it's something like that and your mother.
[46:06] And.
[46:08] And your mother found him repulsive and sex with him was uh horrible.
[46:16] Yeah and and you also had.
[46:18] A grandmother and a grandfather I'll see you later. Who did not even talk to each other.
[46:25] Yeah yeah so so correct i mean i've never seen them kiss or anything even though they had another child my sister.
[46:34] Uh oh your parents.
[46:37] Yes i have eight years of younger sister so yeah.
[46:44] So i assume that they just found your mother in particular found sex disgusting.
[46:51] Yeah definitely and she still is I mean definitely you're so right.
[46:59] Okay and also sex would be disgusting because it would have trapped her with him I assume to some degree because of the children.
[47:06] Yeah of course.
[47:07] Yeah I just wanted to see if we were on the same page as far as all that goes.
[47:12] That's definitely true.
[47:14] And so the revulsion that i mean is it equivalent to each other do they both dislike each other does your father try to be affectionate and your mother refuses or or how does that go between yeah equal yeah.
[47:28] No i think it isn't now maybe it is because now they just reach the point where they cannot communicate at all uh but um yes i remember him trying to kiss her or to hug her and she would ah, nah, don't touch me, don't touch me, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, she would be like that.
[47:47] Your mother found your, I'm sorry, don't mean to laugh. So your mother found your father's even kiss or embrace repulsive, but you don't know where you might've found sex repulsive.
[47:58] Yeah.
[48:00] Okay, I'm going to need to see, and you're going to have to email me this PhD. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. It's easy from the outside, right? It's easy from the outside.
[48:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[48:12] So, did you have any positive communication about sexuality?
[48:19] And this, of course, could be implicit. People enjoying teasing with each other or, I don't know, a pat on the rump in passing. I don't know, whatever it is, right? But did you have any positive experience of romance or sexuality or attraction when you were a kid?
[48:34] Well, when I was a kid, I don't remember that. No, I started feeling nice about that, all of that with the partner that I just been with. He was my first real relationship.
[48:53] Sorry, the video guy? Video game guy?
[48:56] Yeah.
[48:56] Okay.
[48:57] Yeah. We started dating when we were like 19. And that was my first positive experience with all of that. I really was in love with him and we had, nice, nice, nice time together at those.
[49:14] Oh, so like sex was good.
[49:16] Yeah.
[49:17] I mean, like, oh, this is what they're talking about.
[49:19] It was better.
[49:19] Okay, right, right. Now I get it, right.
[49:23] Yeah, yeah. Now, I also remember I was reading your book, Real-Time Relationship, and I remember reaching the part where you told, when you were writing about a woman using sex for manipulation, and that's exactly what i did do in some point of our relationship when um i cheated on him with the same guy when with the guy that i was telling you about earlier okay hang on hang on we're flipping all over time here so just yeah hang on yeah.
[49:54] Hang on with that hang on with that.
[49:55] Okay okay okay so.
[49:56] Uh can we give a name for the guy you just broke up with just make up a name.
[50:04] Um bob bob i was gonna go with bob but it seemed a bit western european so i didn't want to.
[50:10] I wanted to be culturally sensitive as i always.
[50:11] Try to be it's it's okay okay.
[50:14] All right so uh bob.
[50:17] So you met bob.
[50:18] In in high school is that right.
[50:19] Oh yeah i mean we met in elementary school uh we liked each other back then but we were kids but we actually met like really met in high school and we started dating in high school we were just finishing high school okay and he's.
[50:34] Your age right.
[50:35] Yeah we're the same age i'm like 10 years older 10 days older 10 days okay 10 years 10 days a little bit of a change yeah got it yeah all.
[50:44] Right so um did you have other boyfriends in the time that you were not with bob.
[50:51] No i mean i had some kind of affair short affairs i would say but i didn't have a boyfriend i i didn't have any real relationship beside him like that i would be with someone who wants to be with me and that we are planning future like no one okay.
[51:12] Got it okay so um your body count is is very low right i guess as a whole.
[51:20] Uh you mean sexual partners yeah yeah well i i i think it's high for me it's like six i think okay so it's not really low but i the only positive the only positive experience what was with this bob guy everything else was just not nice okay.
[51:47] So only bob has the magic touch.
[51:51] I mean, I was only emotionally in touch with him. Everything else was, okay, I'm supposed to do that. Like, you know, to manipulate or...
[51:59] No, I don't know what you're talking about at all. Sorry.
[52:01] Yeah. Well, the other affairs that I had were like a... Well, as I already told you, I wanted to be noticed. I wanted to be praised. I wanted to be attractive, whatever. and I just wanted to feel that someone wants me. So the sex was the way to, I don't know, make someone happy with me or make someone think that I'm whatever.
[52:34] Worthwhile.
[52:35] Hot or beautiful, worthwhile, yeah. So I always dreamed of guys admiring my mind, but I used sex for doing that. Like the worst thing that you can do.
[52:52] Well, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily rush to judgment here, but it's something that occurred. Okay.
[52:59] Yeah.
[53:01] All right. So what is it that you wanted guys to admire about your mind?
[53:07] Well, I wanted them to think that I'm like, you know the smart independent that i am strong that i can solve issues on my own that i can, you know whenever guys by.
[53:27] Not needing them.
[53:27] Well yeah i guess that's correct yeah and.
[53:35] That's so you've got a lot of feminist stuff is that right.
[53:37] Uh well yes i am fighting it but definitely like i was a teenager who is very very against boys and i was always thinking that it's unfair that girls have to be pregnant and like destroy their body and they don't have to do anything it was very very uh close-minded thinking sorry i don't i don't.
[54:03] Quite understand um so you feel that men have it easy right easy.
[54:08] I felt okay you're literally.
[54:10] Born in a war who the fuck got drafted, yeah no seriously you're born in a war who gets to have babies and who has to go shoot people and get shot at.
[54:21] Yeah you're so right.
[54:23] It's amazing how we can ignore like things right like our actually you were born because of war where your father got drafted and your mother didn't but it's like men have it easy yeah.
[54:33] Yeah yeah terrible terrible.
[54:34] I mean no no it's not it's not terrible it's i i sympathize i really do yeah like just how much we can avoid yeah the basic facts right in front of our faces.
[54:44] Like it's it's yeah i mean it's also it makes sense because i was as i always told you very close i was spending the most time in my mom and she was always criticizing my father so well everything that he has done was wrong and everything that she was doing was good so well, why does she have to clean why she have to do that that that and he just go and.
[55:14] Get sorry he had to go be a waiter so the family could survive right yeah so he couldn't even see his children yeah right terrible yeah well no no i mean i'm just like how is your mother you're.
[55:28] So right you're so right.
[55:30] How is your mother doing this now i mean look i'm not saying i'm a huge fan of what your father did as a father or as a husband or anything like that, right?
[55:41] Yeah.
[55:42] But I'm still trying to sort of figure this out. I mean, did she think, how did she communicate that this was all men?
[55:58] Well, um.
[56:00] Because she could have just said, I married a bad guy. Don't do that.
[56:03] Yeah.
[56:04] Look for a good girl.
[56:06] Well, yeah, you are right. I mean, she obviously, yeah, like all mothers do when we grow up, they change. I mean, they change. People don't change. They are the same, but yeah, they maybe hid something. Now she is not telling me that. She is encouraging me to find someone to be happy, to have children and everything else.
[56:32] But yeah, at that time Maybe she didn't actually tell me that But she acted like that How did she act like that?
[56:40] How did she act like This is all men?
[56:44] Well, she would, you know, complain about the things that she has to do. And when they are very untidy, or would you say in English like that, she would have to clean after her father. She would have to clean after my father. She would have to feed them. The obvious things that women do, like Jennifer Aniston and the movie, the breakup.
[57:17] So that part. But also, I think she was always... I remember her once telling me that she was a sexual. I mean, not these exact words, but I remember some songs she was always loving. The song is about a girl who is not meant to be with anyone or something like that. She always wanted to emphasize how she lived. She was very free when she was young. She worked a lot at the seaside, at the mountains. She had a lot of friends. And she was okay with living alone. And then the war came and she got married and blah, blah, blah. And i would ask her well mom if you didn't marry our father then you wouldn't have us and she would say well i would have you with someone else and i would say well you wouldn't you wouldn't really have us like you wouldn't um so yeah i'm not i'm not sure i've answered your question but.
[58:27] She did emphasize the fact that uh a strong woman that she is a strong woman she would never cry like i i maybe once i saw her crying and it was when i was talking about her and all the things that she did to me especially with the emotional side i sat with her once for four hours and i told her about my sex life and everything that i've been through and she was crying that then and i that's the only i think time i saw her crying or sympathizing with me or anything like that so yeah okay, All right.
[59:06] So, did your mother ever... Did your mother ever say that she made a bad choice?
[59:19] Yes. Yes, she did. She also told me that she could do better.
[59:26] And when I asked her, why didn't you divorce him? Why did you stay with him? Are you aware that no one did this to you? You did it to yourself? And she would be like, well, yeah, but she would always come and cry and beg, and I would feel sorry. For him and then i i would just leave him in my life because when they first got married they went to his house and he was he uh grew up very poor because obviously his father was an alcoholic so he would spend all the earnings on alcohol and they were they were starving he started working when he was 13 or something like that as the first time he held the waiter her pain or whatever it's called in his hands and when she came there she was disgusted by the conditions there and she came back home and she came after her so they basically lived in my mother's house my mother's uh my grandmother and grandfather's house so yeah she she always she would always find the excuse that she was sorry for him okay.
[1:00:35] She was sorry for him okay.
[1:00:37] Yeah i mean i'm not buying it but.
[1:00:42] Okay and so you were together with bob, and, You then were not together with Bob for a while, right?
[1:00:54] Yeah, for like five years, I think.
[1:00:56] Okay. And what happened over this five-year period?
[1:01:00] I was a part of the yoga cult, as I mentioned in the letter.
[1:01:04] Yeah, you've got to tell me a little bit about this. And I've heard a thousand stretchy and bendy jokes going through my brain, which I'm going to try and avoid as a whole. So don't give me sort of any particularly identifying details, of course, but tell me a little bit about the yoga cult.
[1:01:20] Yeah well i uh when i finished my college i uh was a bit depressed because my life was always about tasks that i do and i always have a solution at the end like literally when i would explain my life it was like that like i loved school i loved that i have the answers at the back of the book so if i do something wrong i can always check so when i finished college i haven't any goals left like i i didn't know what i what i do what am i going to do and i met this professor at the university he was my mentor during the engineering thesis that i was doing and he told me he started telling me about this energy i was asking myself if the purpose of life was to be born to eat to, uh i don't know work study whatever and then to die and i was really lost and my depression the first time i felt depressed was back then and he started telling me about this energy the things that can go better blah blah blah that he goes at this um yoga sessions and karate it was yoga and karate and it was every day of the week only saturday was free so every evening we would spend four hours there.
[1:02:37] It was like the the big waste of the time and now when i think about it when i'm so time pulled and when i think that i was losing four hours of my life on that i i well anyway uh he dragged me into it i loved it at the beginning um so it was like oh well someone is telling me that there is more of life uh those people were all like smart phd guys i was just finished i was just a bachelor.
[1:03:07] And I was, as you could assume, I was always admiring people by their level of education, which is now not that smart to think about people like that. So yeah, I went to the yoga cult and that teacher Was telling us that we are going to reach some kind of fifth dimension, but also something well Weird what was happening there? I didn't experience any of it But I've heard and I saw some weird things that he would he was talking about Kundalini yoga or something like that And he would say okay You can have an orgasm without physical touch and then some girls would be moaning there or whatever, they would experience that kind of something. I always thought that they were pretending, but they claimed that they weren't. Anyway, he was always telling us that nothing that we do in the materialistic world matters, that we are all stupid, that we all have to reach that kind of transcendental level of consciousness, blah, blah, blah. No one there who came, like...
[1:04:19] Young had children just a few people who came there older they already had families when they entered so they had children but a lot of people are like in their 40s and they don't even think about families and i kind of felt like someone understood me at that point you know because i was a girl that wanted to be independent to live alone in the big city have her own apartment and stuff like that and then i came in the yoga cult where someone told me oh it's okay you you don't have to have children because you have to reach that level of something but obviously no one will reach it so you will all just be there not having kids so yeah uh it was very hard because i i worked my ass off to get there to study that and all of that that i was studying and now someone is telling me that nothing is worth and uh so he always told us that we shouldn't be um communicating with anyone else about it that we shouldn't have friends outside of it because they wouldn't understand us that they would um break us they will sorry how.
[1:05:34] Old were you when you got into this.
[1:05:35] 24 i think 24 yeah, and i was there for like two years or something like that and then covid came and i came back home because you know everything stopped and i was home and i just i realized how afraid i was of that man because we uh were we were, obliged to text him when we go to sleep when we travel everything like if we don't do that something will happen to us i don't have to tell you that the eastern europeans are very uh, superstitious is it superstitious yeah yeah they um my mom would always tell me don't do that and i would ask her why and she would tell that's not good to do so yeah we were very superstitious and And we weren't very religious. I mean, we were and weren't. I mean, we are Orthodox Christians.
[1:06:32] And we celebrate Christmas, Easter, and stuff like that. But we were never really religious. We didn't go to church or whatever. And communism was here at the time my parents were young. So religion wasn't supposed to be emphasized. So yeah. And because of the superstitious things i came to that cult and i was really really afraid of that guy i thought something will happen to me and i started being anxious and i still am but not that much afraid of what.
[1:07:07] And i'm not disagreeing with you i just what.
[1:07:09] Were you afraid of i have afraid i was afraid that he was he was always telling us that he's sending energy to us like when i first got my job he told me that i got the job because of him because when i mean this all when i was telling this to my ex-boyfriend he was asking me why i was that stupid like how can someone manipulate with you like that like i never found you being so stupid or whatever and i was also wondering that and now i guess i sound really funny when i'm telling this but i was afraid that i will die or i would die in a car crash or whatever because oh this guy I would like to put a curse on you.
[1:07:52] No, no, I don't mean to make fun. That was a thinking, some thinking that you had.
[1:07:59] Yeah, that's my thinking. And all the time I was thinking about him, I was afraid to quit. People that I was getting along with, who were also there, they would always tell me that if I leave, I will be depressed. I would never find the purpose in my life. Everyone that left there are in horrible conditions. some of them got sick blah blah blah i mean yes even though i had diploma i was very very manipulated by him right.
[1:08:31] Okay got it got it.
[1:08:33] So i didn't have any kind of relationship at that period because i was forbidden and whatever i liked one guy here at the yoga cult but we weren't supposed to have any kind of physical involvement or whatever. So it was good to fell in love with someone there because then we are safe.
[1:08:59] Right, okay. And how long were you in this group?
[1:09:03] Two and a half years, I think, something like that.
[1:09:07] Okay. okay now what was there about this that you found compelling so i'm sorry i know that's a very very open question.
[1:09:20] You were about to.
[1:09:21] Say something because i have a sort of thought about.
[1:09:23] It it's okay i i actually i i guessed you would ask that because i was also asking myself why found comfort there I guess I found a group of people that are accepting me because well obviously they wanted to have as more members they wanted but I was accepted there I was valued or whatever reason and I kind of wanted life to have more purpose, And he provided it in some kind of way. You know, he was talking about things that are magical. But at the same time, when I think about it, it's like the easiest thing to do to follow what someone says. And I don't have to find my own truth and my own purpose in life. You know, like I was used to have, as I told you, to study and have teachers and have answers and have tests. And I was lost without it. And then, of course, I came to someone and I can just follow and listen to what he says. I don't have to make my own rules. I don't have to make my own choices.
[1:10:33] I think that was the main reason I was there. It was easier to live life when someone tells you what to do.
[1:10:41] Right. Well, and you didn't feel that accepted if you were frightened of disapproval.
[1:10:48] Yeah, that's correct. That's correct. I mean, I was acting nice. I wanted to be a good girl again, like I was supposed to be when I was younger, a good student. I was losing my character there. I started being very closed, very shy, very introvert. I wanted to appear like I'm innocent. Like, you know, the horrible thing there was if you had, I mean, the virgins were very much appreciated there. So everyone else who had ever had sex in their life, they were dirty. Also, one thing that would, well, encourage my feeling that I already had. Um so i wanted to appear as clean as i could it was like a perjury or is it the world like i would if i go there i would be clean again i would be i wouldn't be dirty and i wouldn't be mean all the bad things that i've done are going to be, are going to disappear whatever yeah but you are right about being afraid of judgment and everything else.
[1:12:09] And a lot of times these kinds of groups give you an excuse for stagnation right so so we can really you exactly this is what's frustrating yeah i know you're smart so i'll just keep it real brief so this is what's frustrating you about your about bob that he's not progressing in life right, yes and so i think one of the things that um these guys do is they say hey man you don't have to uh you don't have to get married, you don't have to have kids, you don't have to do this. And what they do is they bypass your natural anxiety about stagnation by saying, you're growing in some undefined manner, really. Like, you're growing spiritually, you don't need to actually get married and have children. And so you get this kind of bullshit growth. It's like a video game. You get pretend achievements rather than real achievements. You level up in Dungeons & Dragons rather than becoming more powerful in the real world.
[1:13:09] Exactly. You just described it phenomenally.
[1:13:17] Okay. So how did you get out?
[1:13:19] Well, COVID happened. So everything stopped. We weren't supposed to. We had this, how you call it, hour, police hour, lockdown, whatever. And um we wouldn't we weren't supposed to go out and as i always told you i didn't have a house here i was in the dormitory so i had an excuse to go home and i was it's it lasted for three or four months if i recall well so i was home and then i just decided that i want that i feel good that nothing was happening to me that i just it was like coming back to reality like i was in this bubble and I exited it and I could see all of it that I've seen now. I actually went there for a few times again, but then I just told that teacher that I'm doing my master's thesis and I cannot come and I never came back again. So I had an excuse. I wasn't honest. I didn't tell them that it sucks and they are manipulative and they don't know what they do. I just find an excuse and I never got back there again.
[1:14:32] Okay got it and then when did you get back together.
[1:14:35] Uh we were actually uh we started dating after call it actually i reached out to him uh during covet or something like that i mean we were always in contact during these years uh obviously the time when we uh broke up i left him for a guy that i met on some kind of uh internship program in tunisia uh but our relationship was uh, was bad because he left for us to do some work and travel program i went to an internship and we broke up we grew apart but yeah i was also doing one again one very bad thing to him i i, left him for another guy so he hated me obviously and he didn't want to uh talk to me he told me that i'm the worst person that i will never be so so you.
[1:15:30] Got back together with him how did that come about.
[1:15:33] Uh sorry uh you're talking now about this time yeah yeah okay so well uh he i reached out to him he told me that he's dating someone that i shouldn't be contacting him so i didn't contact him and later he contacted me again like in a year and he started we started seeing each other for a while but he didn't like the things that i've done again with boys i told him about some affairs that i had so he told me that we cannot be together so we uh stopped seeing each other that was 2000 2021 and again in 2022 we met again he had a girlfriend at that time.
[1:16:20] And we uh started seeing each other and he broke up with her and he told me that he will come here he lived in the other city so we we didn't we didn't live in the same city for these five years when we weren't together and he came back here and he started living with me like literally when we uh got when we made up we started living together so it was two and a half years ago 2002 the end of 2002 and we started living together uh we tried talking and realizing um what our mistakes before were obviously we were also young but besides we wanted to start again.
[1:17:04] And we tried, but it sucked from the beginning, to be honest, because we weren't honest, I guess. He promised me that he would quit smoking.
[1:17:18] I found him a job because I was working three jobs at the time. I mean, two jobs and one side job from home. And I found him a job. He's working there now also. He started working because i was already told you he was smart so he picked up everything really fast faster than everyone else there so uh after that i also lent him some money, to buy a car to buy a computer because i was obviously working a lot i was also saving a lot and I gave him that money. He wanted to have a credit in bank, but then he asked me if I would be his bank.
[1:18:09] Anyway, the deal was him to repay me every month. I guess also that was a big part of the relationship that didn't function. I mean, I was a girl who was supposed to have babies and be at home and he was supposed to be working, but it was vice versa.
[1:18:26] Like i was yeah never mind anyway um yeah uh i i had a lot of thoughts about it like i i would talk to try to talk to him not i i had those moments like when i'm angry and i don't know why am i angry and and i realized okay he owes me money and i gave him a job and he still do all the things that he was doing before even though he promised he would change and i was the, you know the girlfriend that's nagging trying not to do that but doing that anyways and i was i was a bad girlfriend i mean i i didn't believe in him i was supposed to believe in him.
[1:19:12] But he is a good person in i mean good person he wouldn't he wasn't aggressive or anything He would always be calm and happy and loving. He was very emotional and he, I would say, melted me, my cold heart. He showed me how to express emotions, how to, I don't know. I mean, we didn't have fight when we broke up. We didn't fight. We just sat, cried together, talk about all the things that are not functioning, talk about all the things that we are.
[1:19:55] Taking from each other at the cost of living together and being together and we just decided that maybe we will be happier with someone else but we are still in contact and we are trying to talk about a lot of things like trying to learn a lesson let's see so i'm.
[1:20:18] Sorry i don't know what that means it's sort of very abstract.
[1:20:21] So how.
[1:20:23] Many how many years have you dated bob.
[1:20:27] Overall like in overall overall we were together for like six and a half years with without the the break.
[1:20:38] Okay and how many times did you cheat on him.
[1:20:44] Uh two times once once it was yeah sorry once it was in the beginning and he found out and he uh well accepted it i apologized i didn't do that again but also he hated me because of it and we had a lot of problems because every like few days he would remember that he would hate me and then i would use sex to make him feel better and that was the first not i know uh that was the first uh part of relationship and then uh when we ended it i cheated on him and i left him i mean, at the moment i i should have do it before but i didn't so.
[1:21:33] Why did you cheat on him do you think.
[1:21:39] I really wanted to know that the first time my answer would be I.
[1:21:48] And I didn't, I guess I didn't accept him ever for the thing that he was doing. I hate smoking and he was always smoking and I wanted him to change. When we first started dating, I mean, maybe it sounds like not very relevant thing, but when we started dating, he told me that he quit smoking, like he doesn't smoke. And then he lied, of course. He didn't quit. He was hiding it from me. And I found out. I mean it wasn't like revenge but it influenced it after I found out that he was smoking the stupidest thing I know but it was back then and I I was talking to the friend that I had and he I told him about him smoking and at that time something happened we had sex and protected sex and I was afraid that I will get pregnant obviously the chances were very small but i got the pill that you drink and it stopped the ovulation or something like that and he didn't have money to pay it and i obviously didn't have that either because we were in high school so he asked a friend for money and he told him what that was about and that friend was a very talkative guy who spread it all over.
[1:23:11] And uh the guy my friend at that time came to my home and he told me about it he told me that the guy i was dating was bad that he's fretting about us having sex blah blah blah that i got that pill and he made it sound very very bad so at that point i found comfort with that friend and I cheated on him with him and I did it for like a few months. I mean, we were seeing each other once a month but I was cheating and I was lying to him and I was very cold at that time. I wanted him to break up with me.
[1:23:51] Your boyfriend?
[1:23:52] Yeah, because I didn't have courage to do that. But I also think that I wanted him beside me because we started college and it is very selfish. I know that now. And I later tried to apologize for that. I kept him by my side because I knew I thought he would be helping me with the things I may be struggling with. Of course, I didn't actually need him, but I had the fiction in my head that if he leaves me, I would just be a dropout or something like that. So it was a very, very bad thing to do.
[1:24:30] So, what I mostly got was that he was smoking and lied to you about it.
[1:24:37] Yes, yes, yes, yes. He was also smoking weed, but I didn't know that.
[1:24:44] And why do you think he was scared to tell you the truth?
[1:24:48] Well, because before we started dating, I told him that I don't like that and that I would date him if he stopped. So that was the only condition to start dating. So if he would tell me the truth, I would break up with him, I guess. okay.
[1:25:10] Got it all right and do you know why he was uh smoking and uh liked cigarettes and drugs.
[1:25:19] Well he had a very uh troubled childhood also he started smoking when he was 13 as i told you he's very smart and i'm not over saying that because he was the one the kid that whole city was talking about and his mother had him very young and um she was literally forcing him to be the best student in the class and he hated school and just the other day he was telling me that he would set him in the chair in the front of the room uh in front of everyone and she would humiliate him She would tell him that he's a bad boy.
[1:26:00] That if he doesn't study, he won't have any clothes and any nice clothes, shoes, whatever. And she asked him if he wants to have nice clothes or to have good grades. And she told him, okay, do you want to learn and have good and nice things and not learn and not have good things? And he chose the other thing and she beat him. So she literally gave him a punch and cursed him. She gave him a choice and he chose. And she didn't like what he chose. So he would have all A's until like sixth grade or something like that. And he would get B and he would beat him for getting a B.
[1:26:53] So his whole life someone was telling him what to do even though he didn't want to do that and then he found me who is who also wants everything to be perfect to have all the good habits blah blah blah and I did literally the same thing that his mom did to him so yeah did.
[1:27:13] You figure that out.
[1:27:15] Well, now.
[1:27:16] Sorry, is it right now? Like this call?
[1:27:18] No, no, no, no. And the last time...
[1:27:21] Then I can just have a smoke break here. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I don't smoke. All right.
[1:27:24] I know. No, we were talking about, as I told you earlier, the last time we had a really huge conversation, we were both crying. Like, that happened never before that. And he told me about these things in his childhood. and I started crying for him. I imagine that little boy sitting there helpless and being, I don't know, cursed for things that he has to do and he doesn't want to do. I really felt bad and I apologized to him and I begged him to forgive me for all the things that I've done to him that were basically his mom.
[1:28:10] Right. I mean, with the understanding that he probably chose you in part because of that.
[1:28:13] Yeah and then we talked about it i chose him because i wanted some kind of well, security of intelligence or whatever and he chose me because i was everything his mother told him to be so yeah we we came to that conclusion okay.
[1:28:31] And what's he doing as a whole i mean you said he's this you you use this phrase like we were in faculty or we got to faculty.
[1:28:38] Yeah yeah yeah he He dropped out. He never finished it. Then he started doing some small jobs just to survive.
[1:28:48] And now he's, well, in architecture field, he's doing some modeling, but his passion is making video games.
[1:28:58] Sorry, he's doing some modeling?
[1:29:00] 3D modeling.
[1:29:02] Oh, I was going to say, like, how good looking is this guy?
[1:29:04] No, no, no, no. He's doing 3D modeling in architecture, but he also likes the, I guess you heard about Unreal Engine for making games. Well, we both are using that software. I am doing that for the faculty, and he has a passion for making video games, and he always had so many great ideas about things, and I really loved it. But, of course, he never... Did anything about it like he would always just talk about it and no action was done.
[1:29:46] Okay so he's not doing that now either no no he's not he he doesn't no now he lives alone and he smokes in the house and he was forbidden to do that also he was forbidden to smoke weed now he smokes weed like he does now everything and when i asked him what are he's living now in the we went separate ways like two weeks ago he moved out i stayed in the home that we were together living it in so yeah we're not living anymore together uh so i remember when i asked him what are your plans now and he told me uh yolo like you only live once i'm going to smoke weed i'm going to uh smoke cigarettes i'm going to do everything that i was forbid to do these two years yeah okay uh and the one very important things that i didn't mention is that he was talking about kids since the moment we moved in together and i was always like okay i i know i'm supposed to have kids but i don't feel like having kids and i now think that i just didn't trust him enough to have kids with him because i i was afraid i mean maybe that's just an excuse but i was afraid like okay i gave him all these conditions you are not supposed to smoke in the house you're not supposed to smoke in front of me i don't want to yeah you.
[1:31:15] You you pre-enact him.
[1:31:17] Yeah.
[1:31:18] Yeah, you thanked him before getting married. Okay.
[1:31:22] Yeah, yeah. So I was afraid that once we have kids, he would just be like, okay, there's no coming back now. I can do whatever I want. I think that was also part of it because it's not like I never had those little moments where I imagined us having kids. I'm just too afraid of that whole topic. But anyway, he really wanted it and he really asked me a few times, okay, if you really don't want to have kids, if you really feel like you're never going to want to have kids. And I would always tell him, I cannot tell you something that I don't know, but I know that's unfair. So uh he i told him that i want him to prove me that he would be a good father that he would i mean i i mentioned you in the letter i asked him to go for a walk and he would be like oh i hate walking or if we go for a walk he would be i'm tired let's go sit in the coffee bar and have a coffee and that really annoyed me as well he tried sometimes and i asked him well if we have kids are you going to have a walk with your kids are you going to have a are you going to play outside yeah sorry i.
[1:32:37] Uh i'm mortal so.
[1:32:39] Yeah yeah.
[1:32:40] He didn't he didn't meet your standards right.
[1:32:43] So so.
[1:32:43] You just kind of nagged him to be different he didn't end up.
[1:32:46] Being different yeah and so you broke up with him basic story no that's not that's.
[1:32:51] Fine okay got it.
[1:32:52] I mean it's not like i actually uh we talked about it and i was not sure i want to leave him i was even hesitant a bit but he was sure but you had all these conditions yeah so you didn't want him.
[1:33:05] For who he was.
[1:33:06] Yeah yeah i wanted him to change yeah right yeah.
[1:33:13] So you wanted him to change, he didn't change, and so you broke up with him?
[1:33:20] Well, yes.
[1:33:21] Sorry, I don't mean to oversimplify it, but it seems like...
[1:33:23] No, no, you should. I went too wide.
[1:33:27] Okay. And so, how can I best help? And I really appreciate all this background. I really do. So how can I best bend my brain in your service?
[1:33:41] Well um i i uh still have that uh big fear from having kids uh i remember i uh was listening to your podcast with the woman 30 years old have no that one that was single at 30 yeah and also i was listening to the podcast of the woman with two kids and uh i i get i had a lot of answers there But I just figured that my friends who have kids, when I need to go and meet them.
[1:34:17] I have an obligation to be there. And I always have to make something up. Like, okay, I have to be somewhere in two hours. I can't stand the attention that kids need and everything like that. So I got some answers from the previous podcast where you told the girl that her mother didn't have time for them.
[1:34:38] So um i guess that's also one of the things about me and i am asking if i uh well is it about the partner or is it about me being a feminist for the longest time or i mean my brother also doesn't want kids he doesn't have a girlfriend and i i'm not sure if he ever had serious relationship so we are both in the same bubble wanting to have money wanting to be businessmen even though i'm a girl and not wanting the family so okay.
[1:35:19] So what do.
[1:35:20] You want.
[1:35:20] In life as a whole i mean you know you obviously you don't have to have.
[1:35:23] Kids right yes yes yes but i have the most selfish reason when I think about not having kids in 20 years, you know, because everybody around me tells me, oh, if you are 50 or 60 and you have no one to be around you, I don't want to have kids because I need someone to give me a glass of water when I'm old. I want to have kids for really wanting to have kids. And right now, when I think about my life without kids, it's career. Like, I am a teacher, I am a researcher, I have a lot of students, I spend my most days with I enjoy being with them. I enjoy helping them and all of that but, Deep inside, I know that I should have family.
[1:36:15] Sorry, what do you mean by you should have family? I'm not sure what you mean.
[1:36:19] Well, I'm supposed to have family. That's my nature, right?
[1:36:24] Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. What do you mean by your nature?
[1:36:29] Well, I mean, we are humans. Humans are supposed to be our reproductive beings. like you know in the in scientific way.
[1:36:42] Well but not all human beings well yeah right i mean the there were times when for every one woman for every one woman who reproduced uh you know sorry for every 10 men who reproduced uh one woman oh sorry well for every one woman who reproduced she reproduced with a bunch of different men or sometimes so so there's You know, the incels, there's the monks, there's the priests, there's the celibates, and so on, right? So there's lots of people who... Don't yeah who have other kids in.
[1:37:21] Their life yeah they have another purpose.
[1:37:26] Or whatever.
[1:37:28] Yeah you are correct um well i'm just wondering why i have this feeling of having to have kids and i don't have that maternal instinct yet, uh is it because i think i should do that or because i want to do it but i'm afraid like i i still cannot.
[1:37:52] I'm sorry are you are you asking me what you feel i don't know what you feel sorry i mean i'm not an oracle i can't i can't peer deep into the heart of your uh thoughts and feelings and see things that you cannot yeah i know so you shouldn't want to have kids because you think you should yeah and you shouldn't want to have kids just because, i think you put it a kind of disrespectfully no no negatives right you said to to fetch you a cup of water when you get old yeah that's a really really really empty and cynical way to look at the parent-child relationship like they're just they're just ferry water at you kind of thing no.
[1:38:35] No i said i don't want that i i said like that's the horrible thing when someone tells me like that.
[1:38:42] No but it's not about like no i mean when you get old it's about having people who are grateful for the gifts you've given them it's about grandchildren it's about having people who care for you as you are no longer sexually attractive and no longer spry and youthful and healthy and right it's about people who care for your wrinkled unattractive old ass uh when you get old because you have provided you know great value to others, so it's really the cycle of life and and love and and so on and so it's not about getting you some water i mean a waiter can get you a glass of water it's not like that's just a very diminished way to put it and that tells me that there's a certain amount of alienated cynicism with you that you would need to frame it that way, that they just fetch you a glass of water.
[1:39:35] Yeah you're right.
[1:39:36] It's not a criticism i mean you're being honest with your thoughts so this is not a criticism but it's a pretty pretty chillingly cold way to, view the the relationship it's sort of like people who say i i don't want to have to get up twice at night to wipe my baby's ass or like like that's parenting or something like that like that's sort of the foundation of it i don't want to become a broodmare i don't want to be a birthing canal i like that kind of stuff right as opposed to you know you get to create this wonderful life that that uh you get to hopefully help become wise and virtuous and see a brain grow and and so on i mean it's this amazing amazing experience i just did a show on friday with my daughter it was only supposed to be like 20 minutes we went two hours because the questions were so good and she was so much fun with the answers so um that's it's an incredible experience and it's not about her getting me water when i'm old.
[1:40:29] Of course of course i i yeah i.
[1:40:33] No but and it's not again it's not a criticism but the the fact that you would need to phrase it that way uh means that you have bitterness about the subject.
[1:40:40] Yeah uh that's.
[1:40:43] That's true saying well i don't want to write a novel because i don't want to just sit hunched over in a basement tapping away at a keyboard you know it just diminishes the whole thing as opposed to glorious flights of fancy that you know create people and situations and helps make the world wiser you know what i mean like if you just reduce it to the beer like the barest physical uh things right yes.
[1:41:06] You are right i mean you you mentioned that uh in the that last podcast that i was listening to that it's kind of demonic when people don't want to uh, I don't want to have kids. I mean, maybe I just made it simple.
[1:41:26] Well, the demonic aspect is, look, if you are curing cancer, go for it. And if you say, hey, man, the price of me curing cancer is not having kids. If you're writing great novels or you're starting companies or doing something just amazing with your life, then you're still contributing to the human story, right? In a sense, you are, like if you think, obviously this is an extreme example, but if you think of someone like Steve Jobs, he was not a good father, but he hired like 10,000 people and they could become fathers because he gave them jobs.
[1:42:06] Yeah, you are correct.
[1:42:08] And mothers, right? So, if you're contributing to the human story in some significant way, and for most people, that significance is children. Because most people aren't going to found multi-billion dollar companies or hire a thousand people or write a great novel or, you know, direct movies or like, they're not going to do that. That's not their skill, their talent, their ability. For most people, their participation in the great human story is in the form of children and community. Now the reason why i have some skepticism with regards to your pronouncements about parenthood is because what are you doing that's so important like how are you contributing to the world, because you said you sort of feel down or self-destructive or whatever it is and in general if you're contributing to the world in a sort of positive way and and you're taking on difficulties in order to improve the world in some manner then, why would you be sad? But I think that, i'm not sure where in your letter you are contributing in a meaningful way to the world i know you're you're teaching and so on but clearly that's not enough for you right no.
[1:43:28] No it's not enough because i obviously cannot make the kind of contributions to jobs did.
[1:43:36] Well if you were some fantastic you know robin williams goodbye mr chips kind of amazing teacher and you had a deep passion for it and you inspired greatness in your students that could be something Yeah. But I don't get the sense that that's your experience of teaching.
[1:43:52] Well, no. I mean, no, no, definitely not. I mean, I do love them. They do love me. But maybe it's just because I'm young and I have energy because now I see my colleagues not having energy. So, yeah, maybe I'm just in the moment.
[1:44:08] I mean, you have a great passion for architecture, right? Are you like Howard Rourke striding from building to building? I mean, do you have a great, deep, and holy passion for architecture? And that sounds terrible. I don't mean that. I mean, maybe you do.
[1:44:23] No, no, no. Don't worry. Well, I have a passion, generally, with art and designing and 3D modeling. I'm in the digital architecture field.
[1:44:37] Fantastic.
[1:44:37] Okay.
[1:44:38] So, how many buildings have you created or built?
[1:44:42] No, no, no. I haven't. I haven't created building in that kind of way.
[1:44:47] So you have the nerve to criticize your boyfriend for not building the games he talks about.
[1:44:55] Yeah.
[1:44:55] You've been studying architecture or related fields for over a decade, right?
[1:45:00] Yes.
[1:45:01] What have you built?
[1:45:04] Yeah, I didn't build anything.
[1:45:07] Why not?
[1:45:09] Well because i lack uh i mean i i would say now i'm not in that field of architecture like i'm not building i'm i'm i'm doing some research i'm more than but you are right i'm doing some research i'm sorry i'm getting a.
[1:45:27] Face tan from this inspiration.
[1:45:28] Supernova here no i don't know i'm doing exactly what he does like i'm talking about things i'm dreaming about things but i do nothing.
[1:45:39] I'm not an architect, of course, and I don't really know the field very well outside of the fountainhead, which is a little out of date. But I mean, why can't you build things? Are you not allowed? Is this not part of your licensure?
[1:45:51] No, it's not part of my department. I'm more in the digital architecture field and in the designing field. like um i.
[1:46:03] I'm sorry just just i mean ken why can't you design things.
[1:46:10] Um you mean uh design things that can get built well because uh i uh yeah i i i'm not really into that kind of architecture i mean okay.
[1:46:26] Help me understand.
[1:46:26] What what is digital architecture well yeah um no it's you have a field that you know the people who are doing i mean generally I don't want to go into it, but here the situation is that you have investors who are doing your project for you. Like literally, you just draw and they tell you what to do. So it's very underdeveloped. Of course, there are people who are doing big things and I admire them.
[1:46:58] Sorry, it's very underdeveloped. I don't know what that means. Sorry.
[1:47:02] Just assume I know nothing.
[1:47:03] It's a good place to start.
[1:47:04] Okay, so anyway, for example in US in Europe generally in Germany England, whatever, People are architects are something like if they tell you okay, you cannot put that building there They want to put it but here it's the small economy It's the small country and the politics is terrible. So you have investors who are did like, doing everything if you have money you can build whatever you want to work it is just someone who draws things that you imagine and what i do what i do i i'm trying to for example now i i'm more into these public competitions where you apply with the project and you are trying to do it in the city. Right now, I am doing some plan for the city in the neighborhood. But you are correct. This isn't fulfilling me, and something is lacking.
[1:48:07] I still don't really understand what you're doing, but maybe it's hard to sum up 10 to 12 years of education in a sentence or two. Okay, so you make some plans, but they don't usually get translated into anything that gets bills, at least not so far. Is that right?
[1:48:24] No yeah right now i am doing one big project that i guess does for now it's the biggest project i've ever worked on because it's the it's the urbanistic plan and the design for the entire city center in the city here in the country so that is one of the biggest things that i would do and generally what I was doing is you have competitions like one country or international competitions where you apply with the project and if they pick you it's going to be built and I had a lot of these and I had a lot of these first prizes but it's never he was never built because of lacking money or whatever. So it's not like...
[1:49:16] Okay, so you apply for contests and you win contests, but nothing gets built.
[1:49:20] Yeah, I mean, it was like six contests that I built, that I won and it wasn't built, but this one that I'm working on now, it is going to be built. Yeah.
[1:49:30] So that's a big breakthrough, right?
[1:49:33] Well, it is.
[1:49:34] All right. Well, congratulations. And does that feel fulfilling and exciting for you?
[1:49:40] I don't think so. I mean, it does. I feel enthusiasm.
[1:49:44] But you've been working at this for 12 years that you finally have.
[1:49:48] Yeah, the opportunity. Yes, yes.
[1:49:51] That'd be like if I was writing novels for 12 years and I finally got published and I was like, eh.
[1:49:57] No, I am happy and I am enthusiastic, but also I have kind of fear of being stressed because of it, because it's going to happen. You know, when you work on something and you get stressed and overwhelmed by situations. Oh, no, sorry.
[1:50:18] That's a bit of a chick thing. Sorry.
[1:50:20] Yeah.
[1:50:21] That's a bit of a female thing. Like men don't get, men in general, we don't get overwhelmed. I mean, we have our other faults, of course, right? We have other things that we don't necessarily do perfectly, but the overwhelmed thing, that's a female thing.
[1:50:33] Yeah.
[1:50:33] And again, that's no criticism. I absolutely love women and happily married and all of that, but the overwhelmed thing, that's not, it's not a dude thing.
[1:50:43] I understand, yeah.
[1:50:45] I mean, sometimes men could maybe stand to panic a little, like your boyfriend. But, yeah, generally the overwhelm thing is not a male thing.
[1:50:56] Yeah, I understand.
[1:51:00] Okay. All right. So you have finally achieved a success that you want, and you're worried and experiencing it to some degree is a negative state.
[1:51:11] Yes, and I do that a lot with all the things I do. I'm also an artist. I do some kind of... I know what you think about artists. Wait, okay.
[1:51:22] Hang on, hang on. What do I think about artists?
[1:51:26] No it's it's not i didn't mean it so like that it's not like what you mean but um i know that i remember also hearing some podcast about some woman that grew old and she was artist and she was traveling a lot or something like that and maybe i'm mixing it up i mean you know i write novels right yeah i know no i'm not i like to think they're a tiny bit artistic yeah it is i'm sorry i didn't mean it to be.
[1:51:50] Like uh you know sorry um it's i am i have a uh i have that feeling that people find artists like painters and you know people who are so sorry they find them what crazy crazy and creative blah blah blah they find them um unnecessary to the world let's say like that like that i'm doing like caricatures and portraits and i also earn from that um and uh i really love doing that but sometimes i feel like uh that's not necessary like you know people can live without it like i if i build buildings it's something that people need and that's what i felt when you asked me that i know i know that you didn't mean that but it's my problem with criticizing myself and getting criticism from people as we stated before um i just feel like i'm not worth enough like okay what are you doing now you're just wasting your time doing some portraits and caricatures for people and well no you're building a.
[1:52:56] Whole city center right.
[1:52:57] Yeah yeah that's.
[1:53:00] Pretty good isn't it.
[1:53:01] Well it is it is pretty good and it's a big thing but you know I always feel like, well, I could do more. There are people who are doing more. There are people who are better. There are people who are providing more to their communities. It's just like nothing is enough. I really do feel like I didn't do anything, even though my achievements, my diplomas, my certificates, people would tell me, oh, you just did so much, and I just don't see that.
[1:53:35] Sorry, who says you did so much?
[1:53:37] People around me. Like they're always envying me like, yo, you worked so much, you learned so much.
[1:53:44] Um yes yeah the women around you yeah yeah women women don't generally uh women generally don't provoke don't don't say what they think might provoke anxiety in another one yeah yeah yeah like men will do that all the time you suck i mean you lose yeah loser right i mean we will sort of poke men's anxiety because it's not that big and you are so right but you know women score very high to trait neuroticism which is fantastic you know it's why we're all here right it's why we're all alive so i i like that that's wonderful but uh yeah i mean women won't say if you say i i i think i'm underachieving uh there's there's almost no women in the world who will say to you yes yeah i can see that yeah i think i think you really have underachieved yeah um i.
[1:54:34] Mean my boyfriend used to tell me that i'm also a very the kind of person that would tell i would get an a C and I get an E at the end. He also told me that I am too... It's like...
[1:54:49] I can't really take much from your boyfriend either because he's wasting his gifts, right?
[1:54:54] Yeah, you're right.
[1:54:55] Okay. So you can't enjoy failure and you can't enjoy success.
[1:55:03] Yes.
[1:55:04] Excellent. Sounds like a very healthy plan.
[1:55:08] Yeah, and healthy life.
[1:55:10] Yeah. Okay. So you said you're not contributing the most. Well, I mean, that's like saying I'm poor because I'm not as wealthy as Elon Musk, right? You can't compare yourself to the people who are at the very top, right? Because that's just a sure recipe for failure.
[1:55:29] You are correct.
[1:55:30] And even the people at the very top... They have significant issues in their personal relationships. Like if you look at something like, oh, Bill Gates was very wealthy. It's like, yeah, and he was good buds with Jeffrey Epstein and his wife divorced him because he wouldn't disavow this like one of the most evil men in the last couple of decades. So, hey, he's got all this money or Elon Musk, right? I mean, he's a complete workaholic, has some trouble sleeping. and he said to you, you may think you want my life, you don't want my life.
[1:56:07] Yes, a lot of them.
[1:56:09] Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like looking at the really good-looking people and say, oh, man, they've got it made. And it's like, well, yeah, but they never feel, it's hard for them to feel loved.
[1:56:22] Yes, you are so right.
[1:56:24] So I'm trying to sort of figure out what is your lack of satisfaction here because it doesn't hold up to any particular logical scrutiny right.
[1:56:34] Well i always thought when i was analyzing it that it's because i, i never was praised by my parents like they just took my successes as as normal thing like i would get an a okay you got an a because you are smart what do you want like it's normal for us and then And when I graduated, it was also, we didn't celebrate it. Everyone else was celebrating. I didn't. And everything that I achieved, I was the best student at my year. No one would, I mean, they congratulated me, but I never felt like they are so excited.
[1:57:10] But your parents are retarded. Like, your parents, I mean, with all too sympathy for their childhoods and the war, I mean, all of that. But your father was a raging drunk and your mother was drowning in self-pity.
[1:57:28] Yeah.
[1:57:29] Like, why would the opinions of absolute morons, when it comes to life as a whole, why would the opinion of absolute morons hold such weight with you at 30?
[1:57:42] I don't know.
[1:57:43] My parents, who are incapable of love, did not love me. Well, yeah.
[1:57:49] And yet.
[1:57:50] That's what it means to be incapable of love. They're not capable of love, right?
[1:57:54] Yes.
[1:57:55] And why are they not capable of love? because they've done great evil. Sorry, it's a fact.
[1:58:01] You're, I mean, you're right.
[1:58:03] I mean, your father, well, they put you in the care, custody, and control of a grandmother who beat you. Your father was drunk, violent at times, right?
[1:58:15] Yes.
[1:58:16] Your mother failed to protect you, failed to do whatever was necessary to keep her children safe. So, you know, one of the fucking prices you pay for doing evil is you don't get love. And you will never get love when you harm children. I don't mean, whoops, right? I mean, if you repeatedly harm children and your parents are in their 50s now?
[1:58:42] Yeah, my mother is your age.
[1:58:45] Okay. It's really old. So, they have done great evil. And they have not acknowledged their evil, they've not apologized, and they've not worked to make restitution or any plan by which you can have some reasonable assurance it won't happen again. Is that fair to say?
[1:59:12] Yes, it is.
[1:59:13] So do unrepentant child abusers get to have love? The greatest gift in the universe is love. Do people who do evil and don't repent get love? Well no to people who do evil and don't repent should their judgment be worthy of respect and deference.
[1:59:38] No no not at all.
[1:59:39] So help me understand why you've listened to me for a while but your parents still have some kind of credibility with you, how how is this possible.
[1:59:59] Well, I guess I didn't face it enough.
[2:00:06] Enough?
[2:00:08] At all.
[2:00:09] Well, I don't know. How long have you listened to what I do?
[2:00:14] Well, like six or six years, I think now.
[2:00:17] Okay. So have you taken my advice and had an honest conversation with your parents, about the wrongs they did?
[2:00:28] Yes, I did. And I expected my mom to be worse than my father because I always thought he was emotional. He was going to admit, but he actually, when I told him that I was traumatized by him and his drinking, he got back at me and he told me, how can you say that? Traumatized, do you know what it means? I was traumatized in the war and you were traumatized by what? I never put a hand on you i never okay so he denied gaslit minimized he denied everything right yes but mom i expected that she would be cold and she would reject me but she actually i i mean i i didn't completely get a lot uh from her but i saw some kind of i mean she did apologize and she told me that, she didn't really apologize like she didn't okay.
[2:01:18] This is just getting worse and worse right.
[2:01:19] Yeah Sorry, sorry. I don't have to apologize.
[2:01:23] I'm just saying that it is.
[2:01:24] Yes, I was talking to her for nearly four hours. And she told me that she would change things.
[2:01:36] Sorry, but what did she say? What's the issue? What did she say that she did?
[2:01:42] That was wrong? Well, she told me that her mother was also, for example, Oh, she made it about herself? Yes, she did.
[2:01:50] Just as your father did? Well, I had a bad childhood. So they selfishly made it about themselves?
[2:01:56] Yes.
[2:01:57] Okay, so did you call them out on that and say, this is not about you, you selfish people, this is about me?
[2:02:03] Uh, well, with him, he just took off, so I didn't.
[2:02:06] Okay, but for your mother?
[2:02:07] Her mother yes i told her and i i asked her if she knows that i will do exactly the same things if she don't open up to me and if she just sorry what you mean by do.
[2:02:18] Exactly the same things.
[2:02:19] Like like if i have kids i guess i would be repeating all her patterns and i am afraid of having kids because of it and i don't want to ruin someone's life uh like they ruined mine, and she told me that she doesn't think that she ruined my life but also she told me that, as for not being emotional she told me that that's the only way she knew.
[2:02:51] Okay so she didn't take responsibility and she made excuses and she made it about.
[2:02:56] Herself yes Yes, you're correct. I have no other thing.
[2:03:03] Yeah, I didn't. I mean, I left because we don't live in the same house, obviously, but I never thought about not contacting them again because...
[2:03:13] Well, did you bring the copycat again and say you weren't satisfied? If you weren't, it sounds like you weren't.
[2:03:18] Yes, I did. I've just been talking to her today because I was asking her about some first years of my life. And the other day also, I was telling her about it. It's just like she does admit it to some point, but I don't think it comes up to her heart, if I can say it like that. It's just she has walls, and I never got to go behind them. So yeah, you are correct. I'm trying, but I'm not doing anything. Maybe I should be more I'm scared definitely he has some of course health issues now um but your father has health issues no my mother he also but it's like I don't really have a lot of contact with him I do but we are barely talking so they.
[2:04:14] Live together right.
[2:04:15] They live together yes but whenever I come home, he's either not there or we just see each other in some kind of short interactions. But they do live together, yes.
[2:04:31] So I'm not sure I quite understand. You go to visit your mother, your father's around, and he just pretends you're not there?
[2:04:39] Well, I pretend that he's not there.
[2:04:41] Well, they have to be mutual, right?
[2:04:44] Well, you are correct, yeah. I mean, whenever I try talking to him, before, he doesn't listen, he has his mind somewhere else. You are correct.
[2:04:54] So what has your mother done to fix these issues with your father?
[2:05:02] Well, nothing. She just also gave up on him. They live together. She cooks, she cleans, but they don't have any more conversation than, like, they have some kind of business relationship. Like, they live together, they share kids together, but they don't drink coffee together or talk about some beautiful things in life or about their kids being grown up.
[2:05:26] So, they've turned into their grandparents who barely talk to each other, right?
[2:05:29] Yes, yes.
[2:05:30] Okay.
[2:05:31] Yeah.
[2:05:32] And do you think that this is mature and healthy or a wise way to live? Or what's your perspective on this?
[2:05:38] Well, I don't think that, of course. I don't want that to happen to me. And I hate that it's happening. I don't like that kind of life. They do. They share. I hate that my brother and my sister live with them. I hate all of it.
[2:05:59] Okay. So, why do you continue a relationship with them? And please understand, I'm not saying you shouldn't. I don't know. But I'm curious as to why you would. I mean, it's a ridiculously dysfunctional marriage. And your mother has not apologized for the wrongs she did. Your father has stormed out and not apologized for the wrongs he did. So, they're unrepentant child abusers and neglecters. So, what's the plus? Again, I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't see what it is.
[2:06:37] Well, obviously, to be the most honest I can be, if I stop contacting them, it would mean also that I would stop contacting my brother and sister because they wouldn't understand this, me not talking to my parents because it would be, you know.
[2:06:58] Okay, but this is all the past.
[2:07:00] I know.
[2:07:01] This is all the unchosen past. Do you know what it costs you to be wrapped up with such messed up, dysfunctional people? What did Bob think of your family?
[2:07:16] Uh exactly what you told me and he was afraid to mention some things because uh i wasn't reacting well for example when he was trying to tell me that i have kind of sick relationship with my brother because i would never let anyone tell anything bad about him i was uh, in the beginning i was very repulsive or i didn't want to accept it but later the few last conversations that we had i i really understood him and also my best friend who was therapist she told me that if i continue having the relationship in my family as i have that i would never be able to have my own family because i i'm still having comfort home when i feel sick or something or anything and if i don't create another family i would be i would the reason why i don't want kids and i don't want to have my own family is because i'm still contacting my original family that's as you said very very dysfunctional so yeah he also thought so but But he also had his family that done also evil, a lot of it, and he also didn't stop contacting them. So we were both having dysfunctional families that we are still contacting because we are sorry or afraid that we will break them if we do that.
[2:08:45] Right. Okay. So, that's not mostly it, in my opinion. What's mostly it is that... If you come across a guy, what's your favorite male name?
[2:09:06] My favorite male name, Alexei.
[2:09:10] Alexei, great name. I feel that's a Dostoevsky character already. Okay, so Alexei. Okay, so let's say you meet Alexei. It could be tomorrow, could be anytime soon, right? You meet Alexei, and he's smart, wise, cool, funny, moral. He has integrity, you know, a really great and admirable guy. Like you might meet three Alexys if you're lucky in your lifetime right and you are still hanging out with your family and talking to your brother and and you know you're afraid to be honest with your brother and you can't be honest with your family and they they're messed up and your parents don't talk to each other and you don't talk to your father when you go over and so on right, and Alexi uh you know you're you're chatting with him he likes you he thinks you're cool and fun and interesting and smart, which you are. But then he's like, ooh, so tell me a bit. And then you tell him about your family, right?
[2:10:08] Yes.
[2:10:08] Right. And what does he think?
[2:10:11] Well, he thinks that I shouldn't be contacting them. And I am afraid that he would do that. And that's why I'm not coming.
[2:10:21] Sorry, you're afraid that he would do what?
[2:10:24] Well, he would rip me apart from them, I guess. I mean, he would go away.
[2:10:29] No, he won't.
[2:10:30] I mean...
[2:10:31] No, he won't rip you apart from them. He won't.
[2:10:34] No, he would... Well, he would ask me to...
[2:10:37] No, no, no, he wouldn't. No, no, I'm telling you. I'm telling you. He wouldn't be in that. He wouldn't do any of that.
[2:10:45] I would be... I would supposed to be that.
[2:10:48] No, no, no. Let's not make it about you again.
[2:10:51] Sorry, sorry, sorry.
[2:10:52] Let's go focus on Alexei.
[2:10:54] Okay, him?
[2:10:55] Yeah.
[2:10:56] He would... Well, he would see them as they are, I guess. He wouldn't see them, he wouldn't think that... He would be the one who... Like, I feel like I know the answer, but I don't know how to answer it.
[2:11:17] Okay.
[2:11:17] He would see them as they are. He would see them as...
[2:11:20] He's got no history with them.
[2:11:21] Yes, and he would see the actual truth about them. There would just be people who are evil and who… Well.
[2:11:28] Not just evil. I mean, I get that your father was a victim and your parents were victims, but they definitely have not taken responsibility for the evils that they've done.
[2:11:36] For their actions, yeah. Yes.
[2:11:38] Right.
[2:11:38] Yes.
[2:11:40] So what would he do?
[2:11:42] Well, he would either leave me if I don't leave them, I guess.
[2:11:49] Well, he won't leave you because you just met him. Yeah. You're just talking. Maybe you go on a date or maybe you go on a couple of dates and he finds out about your family. So he's not leaving you because you're not really an item yet.
[2:12:00] We're together. Yeah, of course.
[2:12:02] So what does he do?
[2:12:04] Well, I guess he would try to sell me.
[2:12:08] Nope.
[2:12:09] No?
[2:12:10] No.
[2:12:11] Nope. Okay, can you tell me what he would do?
[2:12:17] Well, he would wish you well and move on.
[2:12:19] Yeah, of course. He would just go away from me. I mean, not leave me, but like not ever ask me to go on his date.
[2:12:27] Yeah, and listen, he wouldn't do it out of any hostility.
[2:12:30] No, of course. I mean, I've been doing that when I was on...
[2:12:35] Sorry, but let me just be sort of be clear. So what he would say is he would find out, oh you've been listening and let's say he knew something about me oh you've been listening to uh say stefan molyneux or philosophy or whoever for like nine years was it six six years sorry six i knew it was something to do i just had it upside down okay so so for six years and, you hadn't resolved things right and then he would ask about your boyfriend of over six years right, And you would say, oh, he's a drug addict loser who's never making anything with his life. Right?
[2:13:16] Yes.
[2:13:16] Which is not, I mean, with all due respect to your boyfriend, your ex-boyfriend, he's not winning at life, right?
[2:13:25] No, not at all.
[2:13:26] Okay.
[2:13:27] And he has all things to do that, but he's not using it. Right.
[2:13:37] So, Alexei would say, so after six years of philosophy, you're still enmeshed in a pretty terrible family structure, and you've only recently broken up with a highly dysfunctional boyfriend because he didn't obey you about smoking. So would he say, I want to invest in this?
[2:14:08] Of course not.
[2:14:09] Of course not. So that's the price.
[2:14:12] Yes.
[2:14:13] The price is you don't get Alexei. And then you have to settle for whoever's willing to put up with your lack of integrity. When should you have broken up with Bob?
[2:14:29] Well that's before we started dating well no but i mean given that you.
[2:14:34] Dated and you know.
[2:14:35] You kind of got.
[2:14:35] Back together when he was.
[2:14:38] Older when should.
[2:14:39] You have broken up with bob.
[2:14:40] Well the moment he found out i guess what my relationship with my family is and what kind of person they are sorry.
[2:14:49] I don't know sorry the moment.
[2:14:50] No when should you have broken up with Bob.
[2:14:52] Sorry, I lost track of who we were talking about.
[2:14:55] Me with him, not him with me. Okay, sorry, sorry. I thought you asked what should he... No, no, no, never mind. Sorry. Well...
[2:15:08] Okay, was he a drug addict?
[2:15:11] Yes, yes, yes.
[2:15:12] Six years ago.
[2:15:14] I didn't know about it, but...
[2:15:16] Oh, come on.
[2:15:17] Before, now, before, yeah, of course. Before we started dating, now I knew it was.
[2:15:21] Is it your job? Hang on. See, this is why Alexi won't date you, man. Don't give excuses. Don't fucking do it. Don't do it. I didn't know. Because it's a lie. Because it's your job to know. It's your job to vet people you give your heart to.
[2:15:44] No.
[2:15:46] Did you know that Alexi... Sorry, did you know that Bob had significant problems when you dated him?
[2:15:54] Yes, I did.
[2:15:55] Okay. And when did you find out he was a drug addict?
[2:16:02] And when we broke up, he later told me that the last six months of our relationship, he was smoking weed and that he was hiding from me. And he was doing that every day for almost the whole day. And when I would come to his room, he would act like he just woke up. So I wouldn't realize that his eyes were bloody or something like that.
[2:16:27] Sorry, for how long had he been doing marijuana as a whole?
[2:16:33] Uh so um he quit i think uh after we broke well at some point he quit because it was too much and then he didn't do it at all and then he started doing it again i found out about it after like a year living together and i made the scene of course and how did you not know the man you claim.
[2:16:54] To love was doing drugs for a year.
[2:17:00] Well, it wasn't every weekend. It was like once a month, and he was doing that when I wasn't here, and he was hiding it, so I didn't know.
[2:17:09] Okay, so he would do it when you were away for a weekend or something?
[2:17:12] Yes, and the night I find out was I went to sleep, and he thought I was sleeping, and i came in the living room and i felt the smell okay and i looked at him and his eyes were bloody and i realized and i just went out i i told him that we have been broken up but i didn't break up because i was too weak to do that i i needed comfort i needed someone to live with so i i just didn't break up and uh then he promised me that he won't be doing that Okay.
[2:17:48] When did you first realize that Bob was a liar as a whole, or he was fine with lying?
[2:17:57] I guess, like a year ago.
[2:18:01] So you dated, hang on, hang on. So Alexi is listening very closely. Very closely. So, are you saying that you dated Bob for over five years before you realized that he was a liar or was okay with lying?
[2:18:28] Yeah, I did.
[2:18:30] Okay. So that's not believable at all.
[2:18:39] Uh, I don't understand. Sorry.
[2:18:42] It is not believable that you had absolutely no idea that Bob was, had a habit of lying or was fine with lying that you had no idea of that for a half a decade or more no.
[2:18:59] I just you're so i mean i pretended not to know that obviously.
[2:19:04] Okay so looking back, when did you, last when did you first notice that bob was comfortable with lying or i want to just call he's not just a liar of course right but but when did you first realize that bob was could lie.
[2:19:26] Well i guess it was the moment that i that he uh that i caught him smoking and he uh was telling me that he doesn't.
[2:19:35] Okay and when was that.
[2:19:36] At the beginning at the very beginning of our relationship.
[2:19:39] Okay so so he he got up when he was he thought you were sleeping and he smoked and then and all of that, right? Okay.
[2:19:46] Yes.
[2:19:46] It also would be, I guess, when he kept saying he was going to quit smoking and he didn't, right?
[2:19:52] Yes, yes.
[2:19:52] Because that's a lie, right? If you make a commitment, then you have to keep it or tell the other person you're not, but he would just kind of hide it or go back to it or something like that, right?
[2:20:00] Yes, yes.
[2:20:01] Okay, so do you see the difference if you say, well, I didn't know and I didn't know until the last year. It's not true. And then you're in the difficult position of complaining that Bob is a liar while lying.
[2:20:16] Because I just accepted it.
[2:20:19] No, no. You lied. You said. to Alexei, you said, I didn't know that Bob was kind of a liar until the last year of the relationship. And then it turns out that you actually knew right at the beginning.
[2:20:33] Yes.
[2:20:34] So you're complaining about Bob being a liar while lying about not knowing that Bob was a liar.
[2:20:40] No, it's, it's just incredible. When I listened to your podcast, like, and people cannot answer their problems and stuff like that. I'm like, oh no.
[2:20:49] You're answering.
[2:20:50] And i'm doing that like.
[2:20:51] You're absolutely answering yeah.
[2:20:54] But it's it's i cannot believe that i didn't see this like you are so so so right.
[2:20:59] So you cannot lie if you want a bob now look we're all not perfect so it's not like you you have to walk on water and never tell a fib or anything like that so i'm not saying anything like that right we're all human We all make mistakes, but you have to have that commitment and you can't just make up shit that you think makes yourself look better because to anybody with half a brain, you just look terrible.
[2:21:28] Yes. Oh my God.
[2:21:30] And you can't have good people around you if you just say, well, if there's something uncomfortable, I'll just lie. I mean, I don't like admitting that I knew Bob was a liar from the beginning. So I'll say, well, he just fooled me. And I didn't know till the last year. And that's just a lie. And again, I say this with affection. I really do. I'm not trying to bag on you or anything like that, right? But it is just a lie.
[2:22:00] And I've just told my mother, like, you always knew my father was drunk. And she told me, like, no, I didn't. And I told her the exact same thing that you just told me. And I couldn't do that with myself. Yeah. Yeah. I am a liar.
[2:22:19] Well, no. I see. That's black and white thinking, right? As I said, we all bend the truth sometimes. We all tell fibs. Right? So anything like that. So what I am saying, though, is that you can't have a default position of something's uncomfortable. I might be disapproved of. So I'll just lie. So if somebody says to you, when did you first know that Bob was a liar? You have to close your mouth take a deep breath and think, okay when did i you know what if i'm really honest and really rigorous with myself when did i first know that bob was a liar as opposed to oh no not till the last month right because because that was that's what sounds good that's what makes you feel better do you see what i mean.
[2:23:08] Yes i absolutely see what you mean and that's so correct and i'm not doing that just with that i'm doing that with everything like you just described me i'm avoiding the truth because i i'm in in the other people's eyes i look better you're so so correct.
[2:23:24] And that's my whole life we all tempted listen i i i never ever want people to think that um that i uh have have some magic you know i'm perfect like i i just i just really want to be clear about that that that we're all struggling with this honesty stuff. We're all struggling with telling the truth in this way. So I don't want you to come out of this conversation saying, well, I'm just a liar. Of course, you're not just a liar. And I was pretty clear that Bob wasn't just a liar, right? I think your dad is, but whatever, right? But when people ask you a question, if your default position is, I'm going to say what makes me look the best or gives me the least anxiety? Then you cannot have quality people in your life. And they won't say, oh, that's so terrible, or they won't nag you, they won't. Nothing like that will happen. But what will happen is they'll say, it would be a lot of work. It would be a lot of work to be in a relationship with this kind of person because they've been studying philosophy for six years. And they still don't quite get the whole be honest as a default position thing. Does that make sense?
[2:24:46] No, it makes perfect sense, yeah.
[2:24:49] And so your dissatisfaction is because you have knowledge that you're not acting on.
[2:24:56] Yes.
[2:24:56] That's just about the most dissatisfying thing that there is, is to have to study something. You know, it would be like if you had studied nutrition and exercise for six years and were 250 pounds.
[2:25:12] Yeah.
[2:25:13] That would be even more frustrating than having never studied it. Does that make sense? Because there would be a disconnect between the knowledge and the actions. Sorry, go ahead.
[2:25:22] No, no, I just wanted to agree and I know everything what I need to do, but I don't do it. And what's the problem?
[2:25:31] So why don't you do it? It's a big question, right? You have knowledge, six years, right? Why don't you do it?
[2:25:42] I'm staying in my comfort zone obviously.
[2:25:44] No no that's just a no that's just a bit of psycho babble yeah okay well so you're saying i do it because i prefer to do it which doesn't really help at all right no.
[2:25:56] No not at all um i obviously am afraid.
[2:26:02] Okay that's just another way of saying i don't want to do it so why Yeah.
[2:26:07] Why I don't want to do it. I mean, the first answer would be, again, I don't want to be mean, blah, blah, blah, but I know it's not the answer.
[2:26:29] Oh, are you ever going to kick yourself? I'm so sorry. Because when I tell you, you'll be like, I've only heard that about a thousand times. Okay, why don't you want to apply virtue? The simple answer is, the corrupt people in your life don't want you to.
[2:26:49] Don't want me.
[2:26:50] Yeah. Does the guy who's stealing from your company want you to hire a forensic accountant who's going to find him?
[2:26:57] No.
[2:26:58] Right. Does your fat friend really want you to lose weight? Does your unhappy friend want you to be happy? Does your loveless friend want you to find true love? A lot of times, no.
[2:27:13] No, it's really, the truth is, yeah. They're stopping me from doing that.
[2:27:20] Yeah. So your parents, and you said that your brother would never accept what you say about your parents, right? Have you talked to your brother about your interest in what I do or philosophy as a whole?
[2:27:30] No, no, I didn't. Maybe he would surprise me. I mean, my sister, I'm talking to her a lot and she's very open and i'm really happy about it because i always was afraid about, for her because i was kind of bullying her when he was a kid and i apologized and i cried a lot and i i really tried to make it up to her and i i'm maybe a little bit pushy with her i'm always saying please whatever you need i'm there i mean i'm trying to make it up to her and she is really growing up to be, very, I think, good thinking person. She's very honest. I mean, very honest as she could be. So I think I have a lot to learn from her. She's always trying to...
[2:28:20] Okay, so you've not talked to your brother about philosophy.
[2:28:24] But I did talk to my sister. No, no, no, sorry.
[2:28:27] So you've talked to your sister about your love of philosophy or what I do, right?
[2:28:32] Yes i did and i i think also she had been listening to some of your shows okay i also sent her i also sent her your book um well she loves the real-time relationships relationship yeah and she also told me that it's very interesting um she just started listening and she is amazed especially because she likes to follow politics and stuff like that so i think she's just starting to to um to love it just a few months ago i i have been sending her um i mean i sent her before but she didn't listen but now she started to so, um i think she she uh is going to get a better picture than i did and i'm certainly going to help her definitely okay.
[2:29:27] So if you want to be virtuous you.
[2:29:33] Cannot also.
[2:29:34] Please the corrupt and the evildoers in your life, that's either or.
[2:29:42] Yes yes i i know i.
[2:29:45] Don't know that you do.
[2:29:46] I don't know sorry you are so right i'm sorry um i i understand i understand that and um i'm not sure what are the steps but i i guess the thought of uh removing my parents from my life would be very very scary but i i i guess The first step would be to talk to my brother and see what field does he stand on.
[2:30:17] I mean, would he admit that your father was a drunk and negative? I mean, didn't he punch your dad?
[2:30:25] Yes, yes, yes. He absolutely would.
[2:30:28] Okay. So he would accept that. Would he accept that your mother has responsibility in the choices she has made in life?
[2:30:37] I guess he would, but it's very hard because two of them are pretty close, so mother-son thing. You keep saying close.
[2:30:51] Because you said you're close to your mother, you're close to your brother, your brother is close to your mother. I mean, if your mother won't even admit her responsibility in her own life, how the hell could she be close to anyone if she doesn't listen?
[2:31:05] Well, I would guess they spend a lot of time together, not being close, but they are.
[2:31:13] Sorry, just remind me how your brother's life is...
[2:31:17] Uh he works a lot um as i told you before he doesn't have a girlfriend or no i think he doesn't have uh he is mostly out of home i mean they live in the same house but he doesn't live uh he has his own apartment in the house whatever um and he is working as a uh you know the i don't how to call it in english but the like policeman but not the normal policeman but the special kind of one you know and he's also a um referee like basketball referee so he's a traveling glove so, basically he's he's 30 he's yeah he's 30 going to be 31 this year yeah.
[2:32:06] But he's does he just not have a girlfriend now or has he never had a girlfriend?
[2:32:13] He had girlfriends but I don't think he ever had a serious relationship he would be with someone for a few months and then he would just break up.
[2:32:26] And he always.
[2:32:27] Told me he told me that a lot of girls wanted to get married especially in the few and he doesn't want to get married and he doesn't want kids, but i don't think that he's even doing anything to change that or the struggle that i have about it i don't think he has it he just kind.
[2:32:49] Of decided what does he do for sexuality i hate to ask this about your brother but.
[2:32:53] Yeah i don't know.
[2:32:54] I mean i assume that he's just a pornography addict at this point then i mean if he's not yeah not having sex right he's not having sex he doesn't have girlfriend so yeah maybe he.
[2:33:07] Has some kind of affair that i don't know of i don't know i really don't know because we don't talk about it, but also it can be true what you said.
[2:33:22] Yeah uh have you ever talked to him about his lack of dating or lack of relationship experience because he's almost out of time i mean it's almost done yeah i don't i don't just mean about kids you know i just mean like anyone because yeah he's not uh he's not going to be dateable he's not going to be able to have a relationship like there's only so many years you could be out of work before nobody's going to hire you at all.
[2:33:45] Yeah you are so right um.
[2:33:49] Well i mean you you care about him right i.
[2:33:53] Do a lot.
[2:33:54] So then help me understand why this isn't a huge priority i mean your family's not working on it but they're useless as tits on a bull but what about you you talked to him every day, you said.
[2:34:03] Yeah, about everything besides real, stuff um yeah what did.
[2:34:12] Your brother think of bob.
[2:34:13] Uh i remember when i told him about smoking and not doing sports and stuff like that he told me that we cannot have all or something like that, even though he's also uh very much against smoking i mean obviously our parents are sorry So you didn't.
[2:34:35] Ask your brother for relationship advice, did you?
[2:34:38] No.
[2:34:40] Because he's even more retarded than your parents when it comes to relationships. At least they had one.
[2:34:46] Yeah, yes.
[2:34:47] So he would be completely useless as someone to ask about relationships.
[2:34:52] Yeah, you are right.
[2:34:53] So him saying, well, you can't get everything. I mean, that's just sort of a pointless statement, right? That would be like some genius saying, you know, you can't fix a toaster and have a shower at the same time. I'm like, wow, really? Wow. Big brain, big brain.
[2:35:08] Yeah, it was literally everything that he said. He didn't go deeply in the conversation. It's like he's feeling uncomfortable talking about it.
[2:35:21] Right.
[2:35:21] I always got that feeling.
[2:35:23] Well, I mean, I know we've been talking for a long time. So I think what I would say is you just say you have a choice between the future and the past. You've got all these relationships that were gifted to you by grim circumstance right right you didn't earn these relationships no right they're just being gifted to you, yes now the choice that you have of course is you can say well i'm just gonna stick with what i inherited i'm not gonna go out there in the free market and try and get better relationships I'm just going to stick with what I happen to inherit with what I was gifted. It's easier, right? And it is.
[2:36:04] It's free.
[2:36:05] It's easier to, if you inherit money, it's easier than going out to earn it, right?
[2:36:11] Yes, yes.
[2:36:13] So you can choose to stick with what is familiar and it will become progressively more dissatisfying. I mean, at some point, I mean, I guarantee you this, man, at some point, maybe next year, maybe next month, maybe next in 10 years, you're going to be sitting around your family's dinner table and you're going to be like, this is terrible. What am I doing here? There's no future with these people. my brother is a dateless incel loser when it comes to relationships my parents don't even like being in the same room my sister well you know maybe she's improving or maybe she's not even there right but you're gonna look there and i'm sure you had this with bob but you just look at him and you're like suddenly he's just like a stranger he's like what am i doing here what am i doing yes yes.
[2:37:05] I had a lot of these.
[2:37:06] Yeah yeah you just look at him and you're like this is shameful almost it's like what am i doing here.
[2:37:10] I would wake up and i wish that i don't see him that day.
[2:37:14] Right right or it's like you know it's like the people who play dungeons and dragons just a little bit too long you know it's like well i'm all kinds of tough facing an imaginary dragon but i won't go talk to an actual girl right so uh so at some point it's like you got you got to move on Now, my concern, of course, is that time is not on your side.
[2:37:39] Not at all.
[2:37:40] You're 30 years old. Are you closer to 31 or 30?
[2:37:43] No, I'm 29 right now. So in two months.
[2:37:46] My apologies. Okay. So you're two months into 30?
[2:37:49] Yeah. Yeah. In June. Yeah.
[2:37:51] Okay. So you're effectively 30 and you have to recover from a six-year relationship.
[2:37:59] Yes.
[2:38:00] Because you were married according to your body like your body doesn't know anything about pieces of paper but you lived with a guy and you were married right, yes so um i tell you this if if alexei comes along and he says oh you just broke up with your boyfriend a month ago of six years what's he gonna say.
[2:38:23] That i'm still i don't know damaged or.
[2:38:28] Well not damaged but you're still bonded affected by yeah you're still bonded your heart is just not going to be available of course not, yeah of course and of course you'll probably want to say no no no it was dead for a long time it's over you know blah blah blah but and then but then of course alexis is going to say well then Why did you stay in a dead relationship for so long? You know, these kinds of things, right? There's just no escaping it, right? That the simple fact is you had a six and a half year relationship. And then if you're really honest with him, and I don't know if you would be, but, you know, if you were really honest with him, he'd say, oh, you cheated on him twice. It's not easy to get a job when you stole from your previous employer twice. So you don't have a lot of time to make decisions about the future versus the past. And it's really not fundamentally about children. I think the challenge that you have with children, as you said, when you visit friends with kids, you make up excuses to leave because you can't stand how much attention needs to be paid to the children, right?
[2:39:42] Yes.
[2:39:42] So that's a beautiful thing, man. I know for you, it probably feels bad, but children are so fun and so fascinating that they take you out of yourself and you don't think about yourself all the time because you're focusing on bringing happiness and knowledge and fun to someone else. You know, I've obviously had my ups and downs and some occasional troubles in my career. It's pretty hard to worry about anything when you're chasing after your kid in a park.
[2:40:17] Yeah, I believe it is.
[2:40:19] They take you, I mean, for women, it's absolutely essential. Women are designed to worry about children. If they don't worry about children, they worry about everything else. But at least worrying about children has a future. So you can't not be neurotic as a whole, and you can either be neurotic in pursuit of protecting children, which is exactly what being neurotic is designed for, which means it's healthy, right? Or you can worry about everything else. You can worry about how the city center goes. You can worry about your parents. You can worry about your brother. You can worry about whatever, right? Your career. You can worry about your future. So you can either worry about children, which is exactly what your worry is designed for and will bring you great happiness, or you could just worry about everything else. But at least you have authority, love, and some control with your children. You don't have authority, love, and control with really anything else in your life, right?
[2:41:16] Exactly, yeah.
[2:41:17] So it's not that you view paying attention to children as a negative, like it detracts from yourself but it is a positive in that by focusing on other people you get relief from your own concerns and you get joy by giving joy now maybe you have friends who kind of ignore their kids and the kids are kind of in your face and like but that's that's just bad parenting as a whole that's not kids you know qua kids like in in the nature of children yeah i mean uh you can listen to the show i did on friday with my daughter i mean she had me half in tears with her jokes i mean she's just hilarious for me right and so the children just take you out of yourself they give you something else to focus on and it's a beautiful relief from the internal churn debate dialogue whatever it is, right?
[2:42:16] That children are designed to cure us of self-obsession.
[2:42:25] Yeah, I never thought that way. I've never been thinking that way.
[2:42:30] You cannot be unhappy pretending to be a monster and chasing your children across the room. You just can't be. It's physically impossible. You can't be unhappy pretending to be a horse and trying to throw your children onto the sofa from your back. You just, you can't be. You can't be unhappy trying to catch crayfish in a river with your children, you can't be unhappy watching your children master various things my daughter is fantastic at racquet sports you can't watch her be fantastic at things and not say to yourself with genuine joy I kind of half made that. Good for me. And of course, you then get to live forever. I mean, your city center will turn to dust over time, but, or Lord knows, heaven forbid, be bombed again, but your lineage goes on forever. I mean, it's been 4 billion years, and you and I are alive because of 4 billion years. there's no city it's gonna ever last four billion years right.
[2:43:48] Yeah i mean that's that's true.
[2:43:53] But you need to clean your nest and you need to look at yourself from the outside in you have to say to yourself what does alexei want what does what does he want well he wants a woman with good relationships because he does not want creepy in-laws around his children It was just a question.
[2:44:18] Obviously.
[2:44:19] Right. So if, if you bring Alexei over to meet your parents or you tell him about your parents, then he looks for what's best for his children. And he may like you a lot and you are very smart. Listen, you're a wonderful person. You're smart, charming, funny, engaging. It's great. Wonderful stuff. But Alexei being a good father or a good father to be is going to look at you and say, how are you going to be as a mother? And how, what environment are my children going to be in?
[2:44:51] Right? Yes.
[2:44:54] And he is not going to want them around your family. He's not going to want his kids to go over and have their grandparents not even talk to each other. And then you come in the room and your father walks out and I don't know, just all kinds of weirdness. To find love, you have to look at yourself from the outside in and say, if I did not have any history with the people in my life, are they in addition to someone else's? Because Alexei does not have any history with your sister, your brother, your parents or other relatives or your friends. He doesn't have any history with them. So he's going to judge them according to the value they bring to your marriage and your children, his children. That's how he's going to judge you. And I, you, a good offering for his children. Even if you don't want kids, and even if Alexei doesn't want kids, does he want to spend time with your parents?
[2:46:13] No.
[2:46:14] He is going to loathe your parents. Because the more he cares about you, my friend, the more he cares about you, the more he's going to dislike those who did you harm. If you have a lovely little baby girl and you hire a babysitter and you find out that the babysitter has screamed at and terrified your little girl and then a friend of his hit your baby girl with a stick would you and you love your baby girl would you also love the babysitter, no no you'd want to throw the babysitter out the window right yeah but that's how he's going to feel about your parents because the more he loves you the more he's going to dislike people who did you the greatest harm asking him to love you and your parents is asking him to have two hearts in complete opposition to each other which is impossible.
[2:47:06] Yeah i would be better right.
[2:47:11] And recognize also that asking you to love yourself and also to be stockholm syndrome attached to the people who did you the greatest harm when they haven't even apologized is asking the impossible. You cannot love yourself and be attached to people who did the greatest harm to you. And I'd like to see you have even better regard for yourself and not put up with dead-end relationships for six years with guys who lied right at the beginning. You can't afford that again, right?
[2:47:53] No, not at all.
[2:47:54] So you have to radically change everything, otherwise you're just going to get the same kind of outcome, right?
[2:48:00] Yes.
[2:48:01] And everything has to be on the table to change because you're almost 30 everything has to be on the because you you get one more shot at this right you get one more shot yes right so you're probably going to need some time i don't know exactly how long you're going to need some time to heal from bob or learn the lessons or get over it right because it's been two weeks right so it's not it's completely understandable you're not seeing things objectively right i mean it makes sense, right? I don't know how tall the building is when my face is right up against it, right? So you've got one more shot. So you're going to take some time to heal from this, I don't know, whatever, right? And then you've got to meet a guy and you're going to have to start committing to a guy within the next year or so. Because 35, you're geriatric pregnancies, you've got to meet this guy, date this guy. I mean, let's just say you end up wanting kids, which, you know, we want the kids when we meet the right guy. We don't want kids just in the abstract.
[2:48:58] Well, yeah. Yeah.
[2:48:58] Right?
[2:48:59] Yeah. That's, that's what I also thought maybe is the reason, because if I didn't want kids at all, I guess I wouldn't even be thinking about it. Right.
[2:49:08] In the first place. Right. So, I mean, you want kids because you want to see someone you love be a great father. And the kids are just a mechanism for that, at least at the beginning. So, So you got to meet a guy, you got to date a guy, he's got to be into you, you've got to have cleaned up your personal relationship so you have a clean nest. And then you can't afford to waste even six months with a guy who's not right, because then you're going to be 32 and starting again with another scar on your heart. And then very quickly, at some point, if you start getting into your mid 30s, Alexei is going to say, I want more than one or two children. And, you know, at 35, it's really starting to push it.
[2:49:57] I know. Yeah.
[2:49:58] So this is why I'm saying, this is why I'm giving you this time and giving you this urgency you do not have. I mean, mid twenties, maybe you could afford one more mistake. You cannot make any more mistakes when it comes to dating. I don't mean to stress you out. I'm actually really trying to help you because I'm giving you the tools, right? Like just be honest with everyone in your life. And someone asks you a question and you have to review everything in your life and say, okay, is this plus or minus for me? Forget other people's benefit? What about my benefit? And your parents should never have let you date Bob for six years. Never. In a million years. Your father, of course, and your mother should have sat down with Bob and say, okay, what the hell's going on, bud? What is going on here? Why are you just dating my daughter? Is she not good enough to marry? What's going on? Oh, she doesn't want to marry me because I smoke. then put the fucking cigarette out idiot yeah.
[2:50:51] Instead my mom would go and smoke with him, wow.
[2:50:57] Right so he knew he had allies and could waste your time and it's unconscionable for bob to waste, you know i don't know to waste you know practically close to half your fertility window, yes that's that's terrible right and and you needed people around you to guard you and set the boundaries so i'm really sorry that didn't happen i really am but uh there's time there's time but you just you have to stop screwing around and get really serious about philosophy if you want a quality guy and it can't be something you listen to and it can't be something you play with and it can't be something that's interesting oh listen to this crazy caller that Stef had and blah, blah, blah. Right? No, it has to be like, I do this for real, not theory, not books. I do it for real. I'm radically honest with the people in my life. And that's the only way I can get to love.
[2:51:56] Yeah, you're, you really helped me a lot.
[2:52:00] Good, good. Is there anything else you wanted to mention?
[2:52:03] No, I think you really answered a lot of questions, and I cannot thank you enough. It was really, really nice of you to spend three hours on my problems.
[2:52:15] Yes, yes, I have no interest in smart people having babies. None. Just kidding. All right, listen, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
[2:52:24] Yes, and I hope that I will have some good news in the next year.
[2:52:30] Good, good. now give me give me give me a pseudonym if you don't like with your permission right with your permission uh if if anybody i i can tell you like if you're listeners uh if you're listeners uh this woman is super pretty and very no sir i can see i can see your skype picture other people can't don't worry right super pretty and uh you know athletic and obviously very very smart and uh you know by the time you hear this she will have sorted things out completely in her relationships, if anybody wants to email me and get in touch with you if they think that they might be a suitable partner would that be of interest to you? Do you want me to forward anything?
[2:53:08] Yes.
[2:53:10] So give me a pseudonym. I would go with Svetlana but I'm probably entirely wrong about that. So give me a pseudonym so they can say Stef, I listened to your podcast with me and I would like to get in contact with her. What would you like them to use in the subject line? What name would you like them to use?
[2:53:29] Well maybe anna.
[2:53:30] Anna okay nice uh nice palindrome we're down with that okay so if uh if you'd like to be in contact with anna and with anna's permission of course uh which we've got here you can just send me an email um host at freedomain.com h-o-s-t host at freedomain.com and uh i will vet her i will vet for her and then forward them on all right thanks uh anna and i appreciate your your conversation tonight and please let me know how things are going moving forward.
[2:53:58] Thank you very much stef you just really motivated me and i cannot believe that i had conversation with you so thank you very much.
[2:54:05] My pleasure thanks emil bye bye bye.
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