0:02 - Opening Reflections
2:23 - Transition to Family Dynamics
3:24 - Discussing Relationships with Women
4:25 - Reflecting on Emotional Experiences
5:33 - Career Changes and Social Interactions
8:04 - Exploring Communication Issues
12:30 - Standards in Dating
13:37 - Understanding Personal Anger
17:15 - Conversations with Parents
23:44 - Examining Parental Dynamics
25:46 - Consequences of Unfulfilled Conversations
32:44 - The Challenge of Change
34:59 - Philosophical Discussions and Resistance
39:58 - The Nature of Acceptance
40:52 - The Burden of Expectations
44:00 - The Search for Meaning
49:46 - The Complexity of Relationships
52:30 - The Dilemma of Moral Responsibility
55:12 - The Cost of Philosophical Inquiry
59:40 - The Weight of Life Choices
1:05:11 - The Call to Authenticity
1:28:23 - The Burden of Morality
1:32:40 - Transitioning to Truth
1:39:17 - The Quest for Quality Relationships
1:50:01 - Accepting Personal Change
2:05:55 - Seizing Opportunities for Connection
2:13:18 - Honesty in Relationships
The conversation begins with a caller discussing their previous interaction with the host from six months prior. The caller reflects on their struggles after losing their first job and the difficulties faced in their social life. At that time, they were seeking specific answers but didn't find the conversation effective due to their state of stress and dissociation. They express a desire for a more genuine discussion, emphasizing that they have undergone significant personal changes since July. The crux of change revolves around the caller's decision to distance themselves from toxic relationships and unproductive mentors to gain clarity in their life and pursue happiness.
The caller shares their insights into their troubled relationship with their parents, detailing a childhood filled with deception in pursuit of acceptance. They describe their discomfort with feelings of hatred towards their parents, stemming from unmet emotional needs and a lack of genuine connection. The discussion deepens as they consider the role of their parenting in shaping their current emotional state and social interactions. The caller acknowledges feeling burnt out by their past experiences and discusses the emotional distance they felt during the call.
As the conversation evolves, the caller poses several questions that touch on their internal conflicts regarding the relationship with their parents. They express frustration over their parents’ failure to provide them with guidance and support, instead attributing their struggles to the parents' lack of engagement or understanding. The caller grapples with feelings of obligation and loyalty towards their parents, despite also feeling resentment for their perceived failures.
The host addresses these feelings, highlighting the difficulty of reconciling love and anger towards parents who have not played an active role in their child’s emotional development. The caller reveals the depth of their disconnection and acknowledges the challenge in actively pursuing change in their familial relationships. The host provides encouragement to engage with parents authentically and suggests that this openness could lead to healthier outcomes.
The discussion then shifts towards the caller's experiences with dating and social interactions. They describe a pattern of being placed in the "friend zone" with women and reflect on their deep-seated anger towards relationships in general. This anger is further introspected as the caller acknowledges that their hatred towards women may be a projection of their unresolved issues with their mother. The host guides the caller through understanding how their upbringing impacts their current relationship dynamics, especially in terms of perceived masculinity and societal expectations.
As the dialogue progresses, the caller candidly shares feelings of defeat regarding their attempts to form meaningful connections with women. The host emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and authenticity when entering new relationships, advising the caller to focus on personal growth rather than expectations of others. They discuss the nuances of genuine connections and how perceptions of self-worth can influence dating experiences.
Towards the end of the call, the caller struggles to clarify their position on how best to prepare for the future, especially around the prospect of meeting someone of high quality. The host reassures them that embracing vulnerability and honesty can open doors to healthier relationships. The overall message underscores the necessity of self-reflection, emotional honesty, and readiness to change, bearing in mind the impact of one’s upbringing.
In concluding remarks, the host urges the caller to seek quality interactions that align with their newfound understanding of themselves, reassuring them that the journey towards emotional maturity is ongoing. The caller expresses gratitude for the insights shared during the discussion, promising to reflect on their takeaways and consider engaging once more in the future to articulate further developments in their journey of self-discovery.
[0:00] I'll start with the message and then we'll go from there. All right.
[0:02] I called in around six months ago. I was not doing very well with me losing my first employment and the business I was a part of not doing very well. You gave some direction about sticking with my at-the-time mentor to establish a new career, but I can say that when I called you was definitely not only a bad time, but also quite ineffective given the stress and dissociation I had to maintain daily. I was focused entirely on the how in our previous conversation and was not seeking answers to pressing questions. The result was a likely frustrating and forgettable experience as I brought my anxieties into your life. I seek to remedy that, but also to have a genuine, honest conversation, which is still very rare for me. I have some questions that time away from the death spiral of my inner parents has illuminated, and I'm seeking your valuable input.
[0:48] Things have changed since July, with the ultimate step ironically being to do less. I ditched the gurus and mentors and pulled back from all the relationships I had. There was no one I was close to, and all of my social circles were built on lies I had made for approval. Upon telling them, my social circles, of my deception, I was invariably removed from them, as expected. I now work happily and have more time for philosophy, and hopefully soon, joy and progress towards joy.
[1:16] The core principle behind my need to lie to these groups to gain acceptance was acceptance. This never worked. Nobody valued me anywhere, especially not my parents. My parents taught me a little. They bought us, my siblings, things, but never examined what we wanted with any level of curiosity. A core theme I've tried to square personally from your work is that children want to be comforted and loved by their parents, but I can't recall a time when I distinctly wanted anything to do with them. Despite my clear memories of events, I can't remember a time in my life, fondly or with joy, at all. Not a time I'd return to or a moment with my family I wish I could go back to. The same feeling exists when I think of the company of others, whether it's friends or family. Frankly, I hate them, everyone, and I hate my experience of living up till now. You mentioned a distinct distance from my anger and emotion in general on our call. Up until the past few months, I didn't even feel anything. I find myself unable to muster up the bandwidth for even the most basic curiosity towards anyone anymore. I feel burnt out by the idea before I even do it.
[2:24] This has been quite the preamble, so I'll just dive into my first question.
[2:29] My parents would die if I asked them to. If I defood, ran off, died of a heroin binge, they would have been tracking me the entire time and would pay for my funeral. They swear up and down that they would do anything for me and that they would weather any storm to ensure my safety and well-being. I can guarantee they would. For all intents and purposes, they love me, even though the relationship is built essentially on bribery, i.e., they buy me stuff to placate me and keep me in the home. I've conversed with them before about history, and they even know my stance on their parenting. They won't change, and I can't even imagine what restitution might look like or whether restitution is even necessary. I'm at a loss right at the finish line. How can I consolidate that loyalty, that desire to do what's right by me, with how much ire I feel for them for not teaching me a damn thing about anything? It's a self-answering question, just typing it out, but I don't have the bandwidth or courage to answer it myself.
[3:24] Should time allow in our conversation, I have a few more questions about women specifically. My parents didn't teach me jack shit, just left me to my own devices and said, do whatever as long as it's not drugs. I have no earthly clue how to engage someone intimately, either as a friend or romantically. It's sometimes even manifested as a direct and scathing hatred of women as a whole, like real bona fide hatred. I'm 28, and every one women I've tried to get with has called me a funny friend and wants nothing to do with me. I'm dead certain this has to do with my lack of real genuine emotion over the past three decades, but I'm stuck still. The hatred I feel is towards my mom, but even still, it manifests and shifts blame from her to women as a concept. I have no idea what I'm doing and have no examples but pickup content, self-help gurus, and red pill YouTubers. I'm infinitely grateful for the time you gave me last time we spoke, and I'm hoping that the intermittent time has rendered me more able to not only have a genuine conversation, but also to provide you with a provoking, deep, and meaningful one too.
[4:26] I hope we can talk soon, and thanks again for all you do, Stef.
[4:30] Well, I appreciate that. And how do you feel about what you've written and talking about it?
[4:39] It's provoking in me a little bit of some frustration that I ran into a long time ago after I had my first call with you. It was, I would always over-explain myself to my parents about anything, right? They would never listen to me. So I had to repeat myself and repeat myself to try to get some validation from them. And the process of me trying to explain stuff to people has, it's like pretty anxiety provoking. I guess really verbose. And it just feels like I say too much. I've already talked too much, you know? Just having to share this stuff provokes in me a very deep resentment towards the idea of having to explain stuff. Because I guess, I don't know, I guess I just think my parents are stupid. it i mean how sorry.
[5:27] Right okay so um what are the specific problems that you're aiming to solve in your life.
[5:33] Well the big one has been depolarizing a lot i can explain a little bit of backstory just a little bit more preamble sure after i after i talked to you i was working for a guy doing web design and it was just it was a it was a joe blow it was nothing it was crap, There was no money to be made. The work was minimal. It could be outsourced on Fiverr. So I picked up a shift at a local pretty decently high-end cocktail joint. I wanted to try to be a bartender. It felt more social. It got me out of my small social circles. It got me out and about. And I've been doing that for the past six months. And it's going to be pivoting into a restaurant consultancy gig and a cocktail program. And it works going well.
[6:24] From doing that, I realized that at my previous employment, I was running into issues with socializing and work that were intrinsically tied to basically the landmine of my parents and my parents', time, spending time with my parents. For instance, when I was at work, I would have issues with communicating. When I was on my own, I could do just fine. But when I was tasked with talking to people or sharing information at work, I would treat work like it was my parents. And so I would black out. I would not communicate. I would just turn into the eunuch zombie that I would be around my parents. and it caused me to basically lose my job. I lost my job because of my lack of, I don't even, I'm not going to try to describe a reason to it, but I know where it came from. It was, I don't know how to socialize around people that aren't my parents. So being out in the world, I'm just getting punished for acting like I'm around my parents at all times.
[7:32] So removing myself from that, depolarizing work to not make it feel like I'm around my parents, and similarly with my relationships. And, well, I don't have any right now, but that would be the goal. The goal would be to depolarize and understand why I act, maybe not even why, just how. Changing the way I act around. Diffusing the bomb in the brain, I guess is the best way to say it. To use stuff from your work. Diffusing the bomb in the brain.
[8:05] Most effectively. I feel like I'm making decent headway on that. But there's just some stuff that when I run into it, I'm thinking I'm journaling. And I just say, I can't touch this. I just feel like I don't have the confidence to say yes. To put an answer to paper. Like I said in the message. The answer is probably pretty self-evident. but i still don't have like the confidence or the i don't know sorry if i'm not very cogent i'm just no i get it okay no.
[8:32] This is a complicated stuff so you said of course that you're you the girls view you so what like you get stuck in the friend zone.
[8:39] Tons tons friend yeah so.
[8:42] Give me a example of that how does that look.
[8:45] Sure um it's well i'll uh it'll be either i've tried being catholic i've tried talking to women online i've tried talking to women in public spaces bars, um generally they think i'm funny i'm pretty quick-witted they talk to me and the conversation is usually pretty full of banter but when it comes to escalation or when it comes to building romantic chemistry what ends up happening is i'll go on a date with them it'll be very cordial there'll be a lot of back and forth banter there'll be a lot of laughter smiling and then after the fact i'll realize i didn't make any romantic moves or there would just be an odd feeling and then i'll go for a follow-up and it will be i don't see you that way.
[9:31] You're not that it doesn't i don't feel that way about you uh there'll be just let's stay friends, even though i've made my direct it's not like i'm not telling them my intentions you know i'm not saying well let's just go hang out i'll say hey let's go on a date right so it's not like i'm like not being direct about it but but the response is invariably i don't want to talk to you like that i'm not interested in you like that and i don't have a lot of feedback outside of those messages right it's not like they're gonna say hey you're ugly or hey you're handsome or something like that you know what i mean i've never been i've never gotten any direct feedback on dating from anybody so i'm just out blind i'm searching the woods with no compass okay sorry go ahead, oh i was just gonna say that's invariably how it turns out.
[10:24] Okay got it and when was the last time that happened.
[10:30] Two weeks ago, two weeks ago. The good news is after moving away from all my work, I really found it like once I was totally de-stressed from all these unforced obligations that I was participating in, it was a lot easier for me to just realize that I could handle rejection decently well. So, you know, I'm behind a bar. Sometimes there are women just and they like talking to you and they'll give you their number. Right. And I know it's not high quality women behind the bar. I'm just talking to them for the sake of practice. But two weeks ago at the bar and then a few more weeks ago, there was a woman at the local Catholic church that I was talking to through mutual friends. And she said the same thing. so it's been a couple of the i've been pretty diligent in trying to pursue relationships it's just invariably ends up the same way.
[11:20] Right and tell me about the quality or lack of quality of the women that you're dating or trying to date.
[11:33] Yeah uh one word would be uh at all costs man uh especially before the past couple months it was just any any woman who would smile in my direction i would try to pursue invariably um they were never, quality and and what would you sorry.
[11:53] What would you say about them was not quality i'm not disagreeing with you of course right i just want to make.
[11:58] Sure i understand what your thinking is sure thing sure thing so in in my eyes i really narrowed it down from there's i really narrowed down from like, um, trad background, healthy family to basically whether they're aware, not programmed and have a sense of joy and optimism, you know? Um, that's, that's very recently. And all the women that I've been dating and trying to date since I made that revelation have not fit into that category. Let's just say that.
[12:30] Oh, so you have a standard for women, but you're not applying it.
[12:35] I was not applying it up until recently, because up until recently.
[12:39] I was dating.
[12:42] Two months ago is when I started thinking about this specifically. And I looked back on all the women that I had been dating. I was just trying to get sex, frankly.
[12:51] Okay, so you've been in philosophy for a couple of years, and you started applying some moral filters to the women you wanted to date as of two months ago.
[13:01] Yep. okay.
[13:02] And how many days have you had in the last two months.
[13:05] Uh one technically but it was not really a date it was it was a hangout session that turned into me and her talking after the party it was like a work thing so zero zero zero yeah so i'm.
[13:22] Not sure what the issue is you had bad standards before and it got you nowhere and now you have yet to implement your better standards or you are implementing them but you can't find a woman that you like do i have that correct.
[13:37] That that's about the short of it yeah i'm that actually pretty yes there's one more wrinkle to it though which i'm sure might not be too relevant but i i have a, I, when I see, I don't know how to say it, when I see a woman on, I kind of have like a, like a, a gut reaction of anger. Uh, when I see women now, I'm not really sure how to say that. I think.
[14:17] Well, and sorry, do you mean, do you mean young, attractive women or old nuns or like, what are you talking about?
[14:23] Um, not all women. family like women having a good time okay that are happy and families uh, couples stuff like that like resentment towards those that are in couples or in talk about relationships that have been engaged in relationships that are uh yeah like.
[14:46] People who seem.
[14:47] Happy and.
[14:47] Who seem like they're doing well is that right.
[14:49] People that yeah people that are happy and people that seem like they're doing well yes okay and.
[14:55] So you feel anger towards them.
[14:57] Yes i feel i know when it happens and it doesn't like but it happens like a reaction like i'll see it i'll just be like oh i'll like tense up and i'll like imagine i'll just like feel anger i'll be like fuck and then i'll recognize it and then it'll pass but it still happens it used to be consistent. Like I said in my post, it was consistent hatred, vitriol towards happiness, towards people having what I do not have.
[15:27] Right. Okay. And so what is the thought process, do you think, that's occurring in the anger? What are the premises or reasoning that's going on deep down about the anger?
[15:41] Well, it really is just sour grapes, but it's directed at my mom because every time I interrogate it, every time I look at the feeling, it's that, oh, I could have that, but I didn't, I have no idea how to get it. I'm frustrated because that's something that is clearly possible for people that aren't me.
[16:04] Oh, so you think the majority of people in relationships are happy and you're just excluded from that happiness? like you see a couple walking down the street they're laughing they're holding hands and you think wow they're really happy and my mother kept me from that is that right that's.
[16:20] Exactly what the anger is yeah that's exactly where that it comes from and whether or not the couple's actually happy or not whether they've chosen quality partners i've seen plenty of horrible relationships in general but i'm just saying it's more of like the idea there's no it's.
[16:34] Not philosophical when happens so um again logically it would make sense to be angry at your mother so why do you think you're angry at the couples and i'm not you know it's not a criticism i'm just curious about why you'd be angry at the at the couples because it's you know it's like if my mother starved me to death when i was a kid i wouldn't get enraged at farmers right no.
[16:56] I wouldn't i would get enraged at mom but as i mentioned in the call it's there's this huge block it's like i know my mom is culpable for this situation that I'm in. I know my parents are culpable for the situation that I'm in. And I'm like, but it's so much easier to direct that hatred outward than it is to direct it at my parents.
[17:16] Well, have you talked to, sorry, if we talked about this before, have you discussed the negative aspects of your childhood with your parents?
[17:24] Yes, I have, and the result is middling to just simply frustrating. There's not a lot of, they're not the kind of people who will be swayed by any level of conversation. There's no restitution to be made. I'll get a, I'm sorry.
[17:43] You feel that way? Oh, so just to give me all of your conclusions, can you tell me more specifically what happened in the conversation? Like, what did you say, and what did they say, and so on?
[17:52] Right, right, sure thing. So I would bring up to them specifically that, hey, you guys didn't teach me anything. What was with this parenting style? I don't have any skills. I don't have any – my brother is living at home still. He's a few years older than me. He's still living at home. what what was going on guys couldn't you pop up in a parenting book couldn't you have you know asked somebody gotten us involved in in in something it would it would depend on the context i've only done this a couple times and it was a long time ago i haven't done it since, uh okay when was the last time really.
[18:28] Sorry when was the last time you did it.
[18:30] Six months ago six months ago since a month ago about uh june or july of this year or of last year i guess.
[18:36] And how many times have you had the conversations as a whole.
[18:39] It was there were about there was a good month or two when i would be talking to them every week i would go i was just trying to dig in and force my way through it even though i didn't i felt like i wanted to just get to the bottom of it and, eventually they just they just okay so i'll continue with what the conversations look like and then the aftermath of them so this is about a few months ago so six or seven months ago now June, July of 2024. And this is around the time when I was leaving my old apartment. I was, I had lost my job. I had lost that, the business. And so I was very stressed out. So these conversations probably were a lot more emotionally charged than I remember them being. Uh, so I asked those questions and they said, well, we bought you stuff. You know, we had a, we had a boat. Uh, you know, we had all the games, you had all the toys you wanted. We went to, we went on trips, we went on plenty of vacations. We put all this stuff on the line for you. Is that they never said anything like, oh, you're just being ungrateful. They were, they were interested. They were asking me about what my intentions were with talking about this stuff. and i said well i mean you can buy me stuff but that doesn't help me now that never helped me at all i don't remember spending time with you guys uh.
[20:01] Sorry so you would bring up issues and they would say what is your purpose in talking about this what are you trying to achieve.
[20:08] Yeah there would be some of that.
[20:10] Okay do you know why they were asking you that.
[20:16] I couldn't answer that.
[20:17] Uh well i can tell you uh so i don't know if this is the case since you're obviously a lot younger than me but when i was a kid in school they they would say um we're going to watch this movie right as much as movie on geology or you know mitosis or something like that right and right i'm sorry just.
[20:39] Bring a tv in and put it in front of you guys right.
[20:41] Yeah yeah And so then the kids, we would always ask the same thing. Is this going to be on the test?
[20:49] Oh, okay.
[20:50] Right. And why would we ask that?
[20:55] Because you, I mean, it doesn't, if it's not relevant to the test, which is what you're there in the class for, why would you pay attention to it? Why would you care?
[21:04] Yeah, I don't care. I don't care. Right. I'm just going to mess around with my friends, pass notes. I'm going to space out. Or maybe if I'm interested, I'll watch. but it's not particularly important. What are the consequences of failing to pay attention, right? So your parents are simply asking, what are the consequences of not paying attention? What are the consequences of this, right? That's all they're asking. Will it matter if we don't listen? Will there be any consequences? That make sense?
[21:47] Yeah absolutely now.
[21:49] If you were to say well you know this determines the future of our relationships then they at least have to pretend to listen right.
[21:54] Yes and i did that uh they they know that they knew at the time that i was planning on just leaving straight up and so, that was near the end of the last conversation that we had and the relationship since then, has, in the moments that I've talked to them, has pivoted to them just trying to do anything to keep me around. Like, they are, as I mentioned, that loyalty, quote-unquote, they're basically trying to do anything to keep me around.
[22:29] Right. Okay, so what did they do to keep you around?
[22:36] And they're like, be curious or they're they're scared to talk to me they they are just if i were to order them to do a cartwheel and stand on their hands they would they are just like subservient totally dominated by me it sounds kind of i haven't done anything with this but what i'm saying is i could ask them to come drive to maine or some random state in the middle of the united states and they would do it right now. Right. If it meant that they would be able to keep talking to me. You know what I mean? Yeah.
[23:11] Okay. So, um, but they have not admitted fault or taken responsibility. Is that right?
[23:17] No, nope. They, they will say that we did that. Sure. There's nothing we can do about it now. We, of course we did the best we could, which I pushed back on all of these things. And so they just like, they threw their hands up and were like, okay, we lose. Like they, it's like they gave up on reasoning. They gave up on it being a conversation. They were treating to get more like a conflict and they just threw their hands up and they said, okay, you win. That's what it feels like.
[23:40] Uh, so what does it mean that you win?
[23:45] It just means that they're not, they're still not curious. There's no difference made. It's just that they're just going to submit to my will to keep me around. I guess that's kind of circular.
[23:54] What does it mean to say submit to your will? What does it mean?
[23:58] I don't, I, I don't know, frankly, it's, I don't know. It just means that instead of them being ruling, instead of them having control over me, I don't know. it's just like they i don't know i could see them i just see them giving up and just, not trying to just like please don't hurt me is what it looks like it's like they're cowering and they're saying please don't hurt me or something that's what it feels like in my brain, i'm like this is not this is weird i don't like this i don't i'm not that's not very philosophical but I don't know.
[24:40] So what was their perception of how important this conversation was for you?
[24:47] Oh, man, I have no idea. I didn't ask them. Frankly, I didn't have the... I didn't ask them. I never asked them what the importance of the conversation was to them.
[24:58] No, no, to you.
[25:01] Oh, it was... In my perception, I feel like they don't... If they could care, they might, but they didn't. It was just another thing. It was just some other thing.
[25:13] Okay, so they did not perceive the conversation as very important to you. And I know we're guessing, but does that make sense?
[25:20] No, yeah. No, I would say that that's kind of clocked by experience, too. Over the past few decades, these people have been stuck in their ways, unchanging, like rocks. They are, there is, there is moss growing on though. I never seen them change their tone. It's always been something along the lines of, well, things are the way they are. I asked my dad how he met his wife and he says, well, it just happens.
[25:46] There's no agency involved. I asked, I told him at one point, Hey, you know, maybe my, there was a family member who was choosing a partner that I didn't agree with. It was a bad situation and it was not smart for him. I didn't believe it. So I told them and my family was like, okay, but, Uh, you know, it is what it is. You get what you get.
[26:08] Right.
[26:09] And that's, that's the, that's the lay of the land. There is no agency. There is no. Yeah.
[26:13] They don't really feel there is no.
[26:16] Not even there. They are like robots. It is like hell. Yeah.
[26:20] Well, not for them.
[26:22] Unchanging. I mean, if it's hell for them.
[26:23] They change, right? Okay.
[26:25] Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sitting like in the moments when I'm at home, I would be sitting there and saying, holy mackerel this is this is hell because i'm looking for change and i can't extract any essence of change from any of the people in the home or anybody around me this this is hell they don't believe it is but i believe it is right got it and so they look at me so they look and they say you are overreacting i.
[26:52] Would appreciate that.
[26:53] Sorry my apologies that's the last time that'll happen so hey you it's uh you know we don't get why you're so mad at us we we uh you know we're just doing our own thing or you know it is what it is we can't change the past what are you getting so mad about you know like that kind of stuff right right just unchanging just yeah sitting and yeah straight up programmed to death and it's unbearable it's it's horribly, Every conversation would do the same thing I would be playing the same RTR conversation From the book five times And it's like it was the new conversation Every single time It was like 50 First Dates That movie with Adam Sandler Where the girl forgets every date You know what I mean, It's like fuck man Total and complete Just insane insanity fuel My mind is melting in my brain It's coming out of my ears, So that's the feeling right.
[27:57] Okay and so what has the consequence been of these uh conversations not being satisfying to you.
[28:07] Oh so there's a few that i can think of the top of my head uh the first one is that it kind of.
[28:16] Continue to reinforce the fact that I would have these conversations where I would be explaining myself to them in 10 different ways over and over and over again.
[28:25] And so I would bring that habit out to bear and I would get punished for it in the real world because I would just talk and talk and talk. But mentally, it was just exhausting. I don't feel like I have any will to change my environment, to change the world around me, to affect change positively or negatively in somebody else. One of the things I felt a deep desire for was to have somebody have an emotional reaction to me that actively changes the way they think about me, like have them like me or have them hate me. But I can't think of anybody in my life that actively hates me or actively likes me that i've had any kind of impact on and so i go home and i see my parents where there's no change i can't affect any kind of change on them period this is a long time ago this is like you know when i was still living with them right um but you know i can't affect any change on them, can i affect change on anybody else and lo and behold the most meaningless impact i can have on a woman is that friend zone thing. You know what I mean? Where they're, okay, they don't care about me either way. They don't hate me. They don't like me. It's just, there was no net, there was net neutral interaction and then everybody moves on. Right. You forget it's done.
[29:47] Right.
[29:47] Same thing happens with like friend groups. I don't really socialize with anybody from work. It's not really my crowd, but you know, as part of the job, I talk to people and it's always a pleasant interaction there and people at work tend to value my dedication and skill at bartending and serving and doing all these things. And so I have positive interactions there and they remember me, which has been a huge, albeit kind of small, positive to being out on my own again. But in general, when it comes to actually forming these relationships, the fact that I can't affect any change on have not affected change or been left an imprint on anybody in my life, historically speaking and that leads me to resent them too as i mentioned i just don't have anybody, you know what i mean i don't have any of that and so that would be the biggest effect of all this would be a lack of genuine um connection or a feeling of being able to affect positive change around me. Helplessness, basically.
[30:51] Right. No, I get that. So, I'm a little confused. If you find, you said the relationship is unbearable.
[30:59] That might have been just me blabbering.
[31:01] No, no, it's fine. I'm not trying to catch you out or anything here. I'm just trying to make, I want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.
[31:09] Sorry, when I say the relationship was unbearable, I wouldn't call what I have with my parents a relationship. It's just that the closeness, the proximity to them, the proximity of being near them or being involved with them was unbearable, is unbearable for extended periods of time. Yeah.
[31:28] Okay. I get that. And I wasn't criticizing with the language, but if it's unbearable, why do you bear it?
[31:39] It's not very philosophical, but I was trying to answer the question that I posed in the message before I took the call on. And the one thing I thought of was that my parents, despite the quality of the connection, are still the only social experience that i have and if i were to throw them away completely just completely defu i would lose the last bit of connection i have to to anybody and that scares me that i felt fear when i thought about that.
[32:14] Okay so it's sort of like if you come to a nutritionist and you say um i'm really really overweight uh so.
[32:25] But i.
[32:25] Don't want to change my diet what's the.
[32:27] I don't want to change my diet yeah.
[32:28] What does the nutritionist say.
[32:31] And no no it's.
[32:32] No negative judgment it's just it seems like it's.
[32:34] A fact right he says he says tough shit you got to change your diet if you want to lose the weight you got to drop the calories you got to lower the calories and get the work up so somebody says yeah i'm.
[32:45] Scared because my friends are all fat. And if I, if I lose the weight, then I'm not going to have any friends.
[32:55] And the doctor says, well, in this case, I think the doctor would probably tell me, well, do you want fat friends? I mean, the kind of people I want to be around would probably say, you want fat friends with a question mark and a, and an eyebrow raise. And I would say, no, I don't, I don't really want fat friends now that I'm thinking about it. I'd rather have healthy friends with healthy relationships too that aren't fat and gross.
[33:19] So, and if you say, well, I don't want to, and I've told my friends, I've told my friends, man, you guys have to stop eating so badly. You have to stop losing weight, and you have to stop trying to get me to be fat. And I've been talking about them for years.
[33:36] Years.
[33:37] Years I've been telling these people, you got to lose weight, you got to eat better, you got to stop trying to make me gain weight again like I'm not happy. Right?
[33:47] Right.
[33:49] So what's the answer?
[33:53] Walk away. I mean, that's what I would do. I would walk away.
[33:57] Well, I mean, it's just that if you want to keep around dysfunctional people who don't listen, well, first of all, what incentive do they really have to change? That's why I asked about this, like, is it on the test, right? So what are the consequences for people to not listen to you?
[34:20] There aren't any necessarily.
[34:21] Well, you keep hanging out, you keep doing your thing, you keep, right?
[34:26] I'm just a complainer I'm just like you know that's what they would see they'd see like the serial complainer who just sits there really guys.
[34:31] You've really got to get philosophical guys guys guys guys.
[34:35] Come on yeah seriously guys you know and it's like but.
[34:39] They don't want to.
[34:41] Of course not well I don't know of course.
[34:44] Not I think it's really sad but it certainly is a fact that they don't want to right.
[34:49] Oh yeah it's it's pitiable it's sad it would suck like it's I hate to see it Well.
[34:55] It would suck for you, but you want to lose weight. They don't want to.
[34:58] They don't want to lose weight.
[35:00] They don't want to lose the weight. They don't want to change. I like my food.
[35:07] I like my parents.
[35:09] No, I mean, your parents like being not philosophical, right?
[35:14] They're enjoying it pretty, yeah, they're pretty comfortable.
[35:15] That's what they want, right? It's sort of like there was this Scott Adams thing where he's, you know, he's pretty slender and all of that, right? and he works out a lot and he said, you know, he was talking to some guy who was overweight and he was like, well, why are you overweight? And the guy said, well, I love food. And Scott Adams was like, yeah, that's true. I don't really care about eating that much. So I'm not a foodie. So I don't love food. So I don't have much of an issue with weight because I don't love food. right so so um there is no particular issue with people uh who who are not living philosophically there's no consequences there's no negative outcomes uh sorry that's kind of redundant but you know they can keep doing their thing and uh nothing really changes right yeah.
[36:10] That's that's true that's going to continue yeah.
[36:12] Right so uh if people have said they don't want to change, and they're not going to change if people have said that and that's okay with you to the point where there's no negative consequences then it's like uh okay what was your what was your least favorite subject in school.
[36:34] They're interchangeable i i hated it but let's go with uh uh honestly math.
[36:40] Okay so i like math.
[36:41] Now but i hate it in school yeah.
[36:42] Okay what's something that you disliked in school and continue to dislike now um.
[36:52] Honestly it's hard to say i know it sounds kind of i'll just say let's just go with uh spanish spanish class or a different language class because that's the i just didn't care about that i still don't really care about learning another language so we'll say that.
[37:06] Got Got it. All right. So with Spanish, you did not enjoy learning Spanish, and you still don't enjoy learning Spanish, right?
[37:16] Nope.
[37:17] Right. So do you study Spanish?
[37:20] No. No, I don't.
[37:22] Makes sense, right?
[37:24] Right. Yeah.
[37:27] So that's you of parents with philosophy, right? They don't want it. They don't like it. It doesn't do anything for them. and so they don't want it. They don't study it. Do you think it's ever going to change human Spanish?
[37:43] No, frankly.
[37:44] It might change if there was some big thing that would benefit, right? You get some big benefit. Like somebody said, oh, man, I'll give you a job paying you a million dollars a year. But, man, you got to learn Spanish, right? Well, then you might, right?
[37:58] Yeah, there'd be a little bit more incentive there, of course. Yeah. Right. No, there's no internal incentive or drive. There's no interest in me to learn Spanish. Right. And it kind of feels like for me to interact with my parents would be like the Spanish teacher trying to teach the disinterested me Spanish. You know what I mean? It's kind of, that's the way to see it now. Yeah, that makes sense.
[38:23] Right. And so the reason that you studied Spanish in school was there are negative consequences for not studying Spanish, right?
[38:31] 100%. I'd fail the class and that would not go well.
[38:34] Right. And you didn't want to fail the class. so it makes sense to me so you so there were negative consequences and so you studied right.
[38:44] Yeah yeah okay okay.
[38:47] Yeah the parents that's why they asked you what's your purpose in in in asking me this because they wanted to know well what are the negative consequences if we don't do it.
[38:56] Hyperbolic example what are you gonna do stab me what are you gonna do shoot me like it's one of those things.
[39:04] Well it's like if some guy if some guy uh came up and said give me your wallet or else right and he was like 98 pounds and and had no weapon frail you know okay like okay what's the or else here or else what you're gonna lecture me about dungeons and dragons you.
[39:23] Pick them up and put them in a trash can oh.
[39:26] Right that's exactly what it is yeah so it's not it's not shocking your parents don't want to do it, and there's no negative consequences for them not doing it, because you still hang out with them, so they're not going to do it.
[39:39] That's true, that's true.
[39:42] And again, this is like, I'm just looking at it from, I mean, obviously I wish, and you wish that they would do it, I get that, right? I understand that, that makes good sense to me, so I'm, but the fact is, they don't want to do it, right?
[39:58] Yeah.
[40:03] And why should they?
[40:07] Why should they? There's no should to it.
[40:10] Well, it's kind of like the Spanish teacher saying, well, man, Spanish is great. You should want to learn Spanish.
[40:18] And then I say why.
[40:19] Well, no, it's like, but I don't. I don't want to learn Spanish. You find Spanish to be great, and that's great for you, but I don't find Spanish to be great. I don't like it. You like it, I don't.
[40:32] It's kind of like two opinions against each other. It's like you should. That's kind of like still an opinion, though, and mine's just as, you know, I shouldn't, I don't want to. You know, they're kind of, there's no one over the other on that one. It was like, you know, you should learn to drink water because if you don't, you'll die, then there you go. That's different.
[40:52] Well, and it is quite a bit different because, of course, drinking water, you die. So let's play this out, right? And look, your parents are clearly not motivated by a deep sense of ethics and virtue, right?
[41:05] No. Yeah, that's pretty clear. Let's go with that.
[41:08] And let's not, like, for the moment, let's not condemn them for that, right? Let's just look at it from a transactional standpoint, because we're seeking to understand people's choices and behaviors, right? So we're just seeking to understand.
[41:21] Yes.
[41:21] So the way to approach these things, I think, is kind of like if you are an anthropologist, right, and you're studying some primitive tribe, you can't really learn them, or you can't really learn about them if all you do is condemn them, right? Right.
[41:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
[41:37] So you try and approach things from a neutral standpoint and a sort of curiosity standpoint, like an anthropologist. So we'll try that approach, right? And see if that abends some fruit. Does that seem like a good way to start?
[41:51] Seems like a good way to start. Let's go for it.
[41:53] All right. So your parents, what happens to their social circle if they become philosophical?
[42:03] They don't have a social circle, Stef. They do not have one. They go out and play poker sometimes, but they are reclusive to say the least. My dad has maybe one friend. And I feel like the outcome of that would be that they would look at that and say, oh, this is actually – well, this is actually – okay, that's kind of condemnation then because I'd be putting myself on them.
[42:27] Well, you have chosen to avoid philosophy for the sake of company. Who are you to now get your parents for making the exact same choice?
[42:36] Right, exactly. And so, yeah, they would look philosophically and say, oh, oh, shoot, we don't have a social circle. That would be maybe, I don't know if that's me putting my perception on them, but that would be my thought.
[42:52] Well, most times when you become good after not being good, your social circle is destroyed.
[43:01] Oh okay so they don't have anything to get destroyed necessarily.
[43:04] Uh well no so sorry that was a bit of a bit of a cheat i apologize for that so they do because they're still married, oh what happens if what happens if only one of them decides to become philosophical oh.
[43:20] Fuck oh Oh, okay. Yeah. Uh, okay. They would be like, Oh, oh my, oh my good God. I, this is, look what I did to my children. Look at the result of this. Who is this man? I don't even, I couldn't talk to him about anything of meaning or value. I couldn't speak my mind. I would go insane. This is my mom or my dad, whichever one it is. I would go insane. If I woke up feeling like I do right now, but I was my mom or my dad, I would freak out.
[43:58] Right.
[43:59] It would be insane.
[44:00] It's hard for people with a good conscience to understand what it's like to have a bad conscience.
[44:07] Right.
[44:08] But having a bad conscience is like being in a storm-tossed sea in a very, very rickety boat. you can't you have very little mobility you have very little chance to change anything and you are always, you are always nervous at blowback right right, it'd be like somebody saying well I really want to use the law while being a criminal well you can't really use the law while being a criminal unless you're in the government already right.
[44:42] Right absolutely yeah.
[44:44] So, what happens to your parents' marriage if only your father becomes philosophical and your mother does not?
[44:52] Oh, that's a tough one. Based on their relationship, I'd say that... I don't think they would, I don't think they would, they would not be divorced. They would not break up. They would not, the relationship would not explode. I think, like if my dad woke up tomorrow and he was philosophically minded, I think it would probably go something along the lines of him going to each member of his extended family and my mom's extended family.
[45:32] And basically imploding those social circles. You know what I mean? Because they all feed into each other's lack of philosophy. It's not just my parents. It's their brothers. It's my uncles. It's my cousins on both sides. It's everybody, right? And so my philosophically-minded father, in this case, would go to these people, see what I see, but then would bring to bear the result of like him separating from them, but with the whole family as opposed to it just being me who's separated from them and whether my mom would like that or not would probably cause a big rift, but I think yeah if my mom wouldn't change there would be conflict over that too yeah it would, it's a can of worms for sure but I think yeah for my dad to move philosophically and refine these relationships in the way that, I guess I would, and I keep saying it's about me, but in a way that makes the most sense philosophically, he would have to torpedo the relationships with my mom's family and his family, right? Same way I have. And that would be stressful. If they were both that way, it'd be done. They would, they would obviously, obviously, but if it was just one of them, it would be chaos. It would be total and complete chaos.
[46:55] Okay. would it be a form of infidelity to bring philosophy into a non-philosophical marriage.
[47:06] Yep i would say so i.
[47:09] Mean it would be kind of breaking the vows right.
[47:12] Absolutely you.
[47:13] Know in a weird kind of way right.
[47:14] Yeah you'd be like subverting the contract you'd be like oh this contract did not account for this one contingency that could happen when the sun flares up and reduces the app.
[47:24] Well, I think it would be more like saying to your wife, hey, you know this close marriage we have? I think I want an open marriage.
[47:33] Ah, no, no, that would be horrible.
[47:35] Yeah, I mean, that would not be good, right?
[47:39] Yeah, it's not even a marriage at that point. Right.
[47:43] So, right. And now, again, obviously, I think that people should have philosophical marriages and so on. But we're just trying to figure out what is the they're calculating things from a cost benefit standpoint. And if you try to bring morals to bear on people who are calculating from a cost benefit standpoint, you'll lose every time. Because you're working on different metrics.
[48:06] Yeah, you did a show on this at some point recently. I remember either it was recently or I was recently listening to it, but it was about people who are motivated by – there's moral actors, there's people who work based on an internal ethic, and then there's people that can simply be swayed based on benefit or outside influence. and i was grappling with how exact what exactly that looks like when it comes to you mentioned the example of the guy who had these flare-ups at work and you um strung out his temper at a big meeting and the result was him getting fired or something along those lines right and that was an interesting example of that that i was trying to extrapolate what it looks like to what those you know i don't i i i'm just gonna say about what they look like what does that kind of person lookalike because it feels like that's everybody i talk to is these cost benefit you know is this benefit me in the moment is this good for me does this hurt me i mean i'm i'm doing those calculations too i think everybody is but they're motivated by it and i think that's exactly what my parents are and there was a point there that i lost in the sauce i apologize uh no no.
[49:17] So it it comes down to the fundamental question i think of how evolutionarily friendly is philosophy.
[49:28] Oh, not very.
[49:31] I think that's quite accurate. It's not very friendly from a cost-benefit standpoint. Philosophy, in the short run at least, costs you a lot more than it gives you.
[49:44] Right. Absolutely.
[49:47] Yeah, if my parents were to open the door to philosophy just on a whim, their consciousness unlocks or something, their life would explode.
[49:54] Right. Are they Christians? You said they have a Catholic history, right?
[49:59] Catholic culturally. They'd go to Mass on Wednesday on Christmas and Easter, and I would too. And then there was a phase from 2020 until 2023 or so when I was trad, Christian, Catholic guy. but i was only really participating in that because i wanted women to talk to me.
[50:18] Boy it doesn't take long to get you to start talking about yourself again does it.
[50:22] Doesn't it i'm i'm yeah it's very difficult it's i'm struggling with that too yeah.
[50:27] Right okay so um the question is it's always fascinating to me because everyone claims to have massive amounts of respect for the moral hero, right?
[50:40] Right, right, right, yeah.
[50:41] I mean, Jesus, Socrates, every, you know, James Bond in a way, right, a tough guy who fights for good. So everybody, you know, says, boy, you know, moral heroes are just the greatest thing ever, right? And then you say, you know, you could also be a moral hero. Oh, God, no. What, are you crazy? No way. That's for church. That's not for me. And of course, Jesus and other people were saying, you all should be moral heroes. It's not enough to just worship a moral hero in some abstract way. You should actually be a moral hero. Emulate me, right? Like, I remember having this issue with the philosophy professors when I was in school, that I would ask them tough questions. They'd get kind of annoyed, and I'd be like, you know that your entire profession is based upon an admiration for people who ask tough questions that are hard to answer. So what kind of idiot are you? How, you know, what kind of sophist are you that you're teaching Socrates and getting annoyed at tough questions? Like, you're teaching Socrates, and you're literally like everyone who put Socrates to death.
[51:52] Right, yeah.
[51:54] So, your parents, as Catholics, would, of course, worship Jesus, right? And Jesus was a moral hero who risked everything for virtue, right? And do they want that?
[52:13] Clearly not.
[52:14] Well, I don't think so.
[52:15] They're not born that out.
[52:16] I don't think so. So moral heroes are kind of like doctors. You go to doctors, but you don't want to be a doctor. If that makes sense.
[52:26] That makes sense.
[52:27] Okay. And so that is where they are at.
[52:31] In other words, they worship a society founded upon moral heroism. And then whenever they come across a moral hero, they attack and condemn him or her. If that makes sense.
[52:45] Yes.
[52:46] That is kind of where they're at. And they are making decisions based upon not moral heroism, but they are making decisions based upon practical, social, and biological or evolutionary considerations, if that makes sense.
[53:05] Yes.
[53:08] And again, we can get mad at them if we want, but these still are the basic facts of the situation.
[53:14] Yeah they're being compelled by those basically evolutionary factors to act as it as they have.
[53:23] Right there's.
[53:23] No one there's like you said no incentive if going circling back to the beginning there's no incentive there.
[53:27] There is no incentive there uh in fact i mean there in order for i mean it would be like somebody who just cut their calories for no reason like they just said i'm gonna live on you know a thousand calories a day. I don't have any reason for it. It's just, I mean, that would be masochistic, right? I mean, everybody's got to have some kind of reason for why they're cutting calories, at least I would hope so.
[53:58] Yeah, like, yeah, there would be some, like, incentive, like, maybe weight loss or cutting down.
[54:04] Yeah, or, you know, there's some people who, there's those people who believe that if you cut calories, you get to live a whole lot longer, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
[54:11] Yeah, yeah.
[54:12] So, but just denying yourself would be, it would be masochistic to just deny yourself for no particular purpose or reason, right?
[54:20] Yeah, of course.
[54:23] So, what would be the purpose for them to become philosophical? From a comfort standpoint, there would be no purpose at all, right? It would just be meant to be.
[54:34] Yeah, to cut the calories, they would have to have a reason, and there's no reason for that, yeah.
[54:42] I mean, it's like for you to learn Spanish, right? Especially if it's something that you didn't like, you'd have to have a reason for it, right?
[54:49] Absolutely.
[54:50] Right. so they don't have a reason. So the only reason that they would accept would be some kind of consequentialism, which you are denying for them. You are denying the value of consequentialism by having no consequences, no negative consequences to them not being philosophical.
[55:08] And that kind of extends everywhere. Okay, I see that.
[55:12] And again, none of this is criticism or I'm just talking about the causality, right?
[55:18] No, that clocks 100%. There are no consequences. I can just complain and they'll say, so what?
[55:25] Well, nothing changes.
[55:27] Yeah.
[55:27] So you don't take philosophy particularly seriously. So why would they?
[55:33] No reason. There's no reason to.
[55:34] No, it's, I mean, it's like an affectation. It's like something that you talk about taking seriously, but you don't take very seriously. And again, I'm just talking about the causality. This is not any big sort of moral argument. It's just, you know, he likes to talk about philosophy. And, you know, it's like some kid who's like, you know, I'm really into karate, right? Karate is just, you know, really into karate. and then you say to the kid oh you could take some karate lessons no i don't want to do that no okay well that's fine i mean again no particular condemnation but you know clearly you're not that much into karate yeah.
[56:15] You're not a big karate guy yeah it's like.
[56:17] Yeah you just like to talk about it you like to play fight a little uh but it's not it's not serious it's uh it's It's like, yeah, it's like an affectation.
[56:26] Yeah. I think that clocks. Yeah.
[56:29] And listen, I say this with ridiculous amounts of humility, because I was up in, until my late 20s, I was this way. So I say this with no, you know, I can't condemn you, because that would be totally hypocritical, right? I don't know. I read a lot of philosophy. I was really into philosophy. I talked a lot about philosophy, but it didn't guide any of my actual relationships at all. Right. There were no consequences to people in my life. For not being philosophical.
[56:56] Really?
[56:57] Oh, yeah. And I mean, of course, yeah. I mean, my family, like for origin and friends and all of that, it was just something I was kind of into, right? Yeah. It was like being into a band, right?
[57:09] Yeah. Just like a passing fling kind of, yeah.
[57:15] So why would I expect people to take something really difficult more seriously than I do? it wouldn't make much sense, right?
[57:26] That doesn't make a lot of sense. It's like, go to war, please, and I'll sleep.
[57:29] Yeah, like all of the people who were like, it's really, really essential that we go for this war. Are you signing up?
[57:34] Yeah.
[57:35] Are you insane? I could get hurt. Right?
[57:39] Yeah.
[57:39] But enough about the media.
[57:41] No. What? No? Me? No.
[57:44] Yeah, the UDIA. So people are always trying to figure out if you're serious. like are you serious about this or is it just uh because the last thing you'd want to do of course is is change your entire life for philosophy and then the guy is like oh god no i was never really serious about that it's just kind of like a hobby.
[58:05] I was kidding i was kidding.
[58:07] Yeah yeah you took me seriously well i don't know there's this old story it's a it's a russian story called the necklace right uh and and it's about this woman who borrows uh a necklace uh a hugely expensive necklace for a ball she's poor but she just wants to dress up and she's got a friend with a really nice necklace it's worth like a crazy amount of money right right and she goes to the ball everyone admires the necklace but then unfortunately she gets home and she realizes she's lost the necklace, it got uh it got uh you know like how women sometimes lose uh uh earrings and stuff like that right so she lost the necklace and so she's absolutely horrified and so what she does is she goes and pays a jeweler to make a fake necklace that copies the original and then she and her husband they never have kids because all she does is work to pay off this insanely expensive necklace right okay and at the end of her life she's sick she's had this terrible life her husband and her have just worked to pay off this necklace and she goes to her friend and finally confesses what happened and her friend says, oh my God, it was fake.
[59:27] Oh, no! Okay. Yikes.
[59:30] Fake.
[59:30] Oh.
[59:31] You just worked your whole life to repay something that didn't even exist.
[59:35] Okay.
[59:37] Right? So, she sacrificed everything for something that wasn't even real.
[59:41] People don't want to do that. So, when you're trying to talk about some radical new concept or some radical new idea of life, people want to know if you take it seriously. I mean, this is the diet book principle, right? Which is if someone's got a crazy diet, right? Like stuff that makes no sense, right? I mean, like there's a lot of diets out there that people talk about that go completely against the grain of what I was taught. Now, that's fine. Just because I was taught it doesn't mean that it was real, right? But I'm going to need to at least see someone slim and healthy on the cover. right right right i mean do you take your diet so you know it's the old fat guy on the diet book right if there's a fat guy on the cover of the diet book either his diet sucks but he takes it seriously in which case i don't want to have the diet or his diet doesn't suck but uh he doesn't even do follow the diet right he's.
[1:00:35] Not even doing it right.
[1:00:36] Right so so that's what that's why there are thin guys you know if i say uh i've got a surefire way for you not to be bald and i'm bald on the cover uh that would be that would be kind of odd right yeah.
[1:00:51] It would be quite quite the uh interesting book to sell.
[1:00:54] Well and that wouldn't be any particular kind of moral issue but, it would be just abs are super important you got to have abs and then you know i've got a potbelly on the book and no abs yeah yeah so i mean and so so when when you're saying to people you should radically change your life and and and you should change all of your relationships you should change your entire relationship to your society right because you know this is not just about personal relationships but you have a view of government and you have a view of taxation and you have a view. Like, everything changes, right? And so, if people, if you're saying to people, this is going to be super difficult and super important, they want to know if you're serious. I mean, obviously, Socrates was pretty serious about what he was doing, because he drank hemlock, right?
[1:01:47] Oh. Right?
[1:01:48] Obviously, Jesus was pretty serious about what he was doing.
[1:01:52] Because he allowed himself to.
[1:01:56] Be crucified right or he at least accepted it to some degree right.
[1:02:01] Yeah he was he was I'm good let's do it he was he was he was on it he did not oh please don't do it to me he took it right yeah right he knew it was the consequences right.
[1:02:14] So, that's what people need to see if you're going to ask them to change your life, right? I mean, if I was surrounded by a bunch of really corrupt people while saying to people it's important not to have not corrupt people in your life, you know, people would have some reasonable questions about that, I think, right? If it's so important, why aren't you doing it?
[1:02:39] Good question.
[1:02:40] Right? If it's so important to have abs and you know how to have abs, why do you not have abs, right? yeah all a very very sensible questions and and questions which should be asked right, for sure i mean if some guy says you know you've been around the pickup artist community right, so some guy a little bit yeah yeah some guy's like i've got a surefire way to pick up women right and he never has any women around him or whatever it is right well that's you know you want to see that rollo tamasi uh thing where he's always got these these women in vegas or whatever right um yeah.
[1:03:18] The big the big tape the big round tables or whatever.
[1:03:20] They've got going on yeah for sure so yeah so uh you can't convince people about things that you're not willing to sacrifice for, gotcha and why would they believe you.
[1:03:40] Just uh they they shouldn't.
[1:03:41] Well yeah i mean if they're empiricists right yeah and then what they want to see of course is they're going to want to see you uh doing what you claim is so uh so important right so if you're saying to people you should change your whole life for philosophy, but you're not willing to change your life for philosophy or put anything on the line, well they're not going to believe you and i'm not even saying they should i wouldn't believe a guy who said his ab program was the best if he had a pot belly. And you could say, well, you haven't disproven his ab program. It's like, yeah, but life is short, and you've got to make your decisions, right? And if somebody is in a sense so weird that they don't even understand that they need to actually have abs, if they're going to say that they know how to have abs, and it's super important to have abs, it's really, you know, well, then they've got to have abs. And if somebody doesn't even know that, why on earth would I listen to them about anything? I mean, you were a publisher and some guy said, listen, I'm a fat guy with a fantastic diet. I want you to put my fat ass on the diet book cover. What would you say?
[1:04:52] No, I don't think that's a good idea.
[1:04:55] And you'd say, what's the matter with you? Of course you know that you need to look fantastic on the cover of the book if you say you have a book about how to look fantastic.
[1:05:06] Yeah.
[1:05:07] Like, why would I even need to say this? This is so obvious, right?
[1:05:11] Absolutely.
[1:05:13] So if you want to have this kind of life, where you change and everything is super important to change and virtue and all of that, which is great, if you want to have this kind of life, if you need to have this kind of life, I think that's great. But you're going to have to show people that you mean it. Because you can't ask people to take your beliefs more seriously than you take them yourselves.
[1:05:45] Then you take your own. Right.
[1:05:47] And again, I say this with all the humility that it took me an embarrassing amount of time to learn about this. And the funny thing is, I was a director of marketing when I figured this out. Oh, really? Okay. That was actually my job. That was actually literally my job, right?
[1:06:02] Okay.
[1:06:05] Right. So, um, So that was the fact. So, but yeah, that is the deal if you want people to change. And I don't think you want people to change that much because otherwise, since you know this, having listened to me, right?
[1:06:29] Yes.
[1:06:29] Since you know this and you haven't done it.
[1:06:33] It would have been done by now if I really wanted it.
[1:06:35] Right? If you really cared about people and so on, and you wanted them to change, then you would put it on the line. Have you ever seen or heard of the show called Intervention? Well, the show Intervention is people saying to someone, listen, you have to change. Like, I am no longer going to be part of your addiction. And it's really serious because people are saying, look, I am so serious about this that I'm not going to have anything to do with you. You are out of my life if you don't kick this addiction because, you know, you've been stealing, you know, all this terrible stuff is going on. I'm not going to watch you die. So I am absolutely going to put you like you're dead to me if you don't go and get help, if that makes sense.
[1:07:34] Right.
[1:07:38] And that's the best chance they have of breaking their addiction, and this is i mean of course you know everybody's been annoyed with me for for many years about this and look i i i don't even blame i don't even blame them i completely understand because it's a lot more fun to talk about morality than to actually be moral right absolutely and so i get where people are coming from. I sympathize. I understand. I don't blame people hugely, but I'm also not going to pretend that it's not like a real thing, that it's not real. I don't want to give people a false sense of morality or the idea that they can be corrupt. And I'm just not going to give them the pretense of morality, if that makes sense.
[1:08:27] Yeah you can't give them the morality of words it's it's just you know anybody can talk.
[1:08:34] Yeah if you don't want to be moral or if you don't want to live with a big a big amount of integrity that's fine i'm you know i'm not gonna necessarily uh complain about that forever and ever our men, but i sure as heck i'm not going to pretend that you are living morally when you're not living morally right when.
[1:08:54] You're not exactly when you're not yeah, Yeah, absolutely.
[1:09:00] That's my major concern.
[1:09:03] Right. And so a couple thoughts. So the first is that when we were talking about whether I wanted to change them or not at the end during the conclusion there, I just kind of realized that, yeah, I didn't really want to change them. I really don't have any kind of drive to change anybody now that I'm thinking about it. I just wanted, I just want stuff from them. I wanted, I don't know, I maybe thought it would feel good to...
[1:09:39] No, you want them to listen to you and to change. And you also want them to be parents.
[1:09:44] I do, okay.
[1:09:45] And you want them to lead the way morally, which is kind of what parents are supposed to do.
[1:09:50] Right.
[1:09:52] But they won't uh they've already made that clear because they are not making decisions, based upon uh moral uh principles so uh let me ask you this of the people you know let's say you know like i don't know 30 or 40 people right sure yeah of the 30 or 40 people that you know how many of them would quit their jobs if they won $20 million in the lottery?
[1:10:24] All of them.
[1:10:26] Right. Which means they're working for practical ends, not for moral ends.
[1:10:33] Oh, I can. No, there's a couple of guys, especially one of the reasons I'm at work. There's a couple of guys who would continue working if they won the lottery. They would just buy a bigger house. But aside from that, like.
[1:10:44] Is that because they love their job?
[1:10:46] Yes. Yes.
[1:10:47] And what is the job that they love?
[1:10:51] Bartending, cocktail making and restaurant consulting. they've been doing it for like 15 20 years a pop and.
[1:10:57] I guarantee you they would not continue to be bartenders if they won the lottery they're.
[1:11:03] Not bartending they're doing the uh the mixology stuff they're not behind the bar anymore they're doing the uh building the restaurants and stuff.
[1:11:10] Okay so they would continue building restaurants they would just do it because they had the money right so they love building to the restaurants they love building restaurants to the point where even if they never had to work another day in their life and they'd have enough wealth for five generations they would still continue to build the restaurants right i'm not being skeptical i want to make sure i understand what you're saying.
[1:11:31] I know i know one of them i know my main boss would i know he's got a lot of money already and he's doing it just for he's here to teach she wants to teach people about the art of making cocktails he's huge on that he's got a.
[1:11:45] Library so out of the 40 people you know let's say enough one guy yeah so one guy you've got one guy right maybe yeah So that's 2.5% of people.
[1:11:56] Yeah.
[1:11:57] Right. So no, seriously, 2.5% of people are doing things for the thing itself. I mean, if I won the lottery, I would keep doing what I'm doing. So I think that's probably about accurate in that maybe one out of every 40 or 50 people are doing what they're doing in life for the thing itself rather than for a merely practical end.
[1:12:28] Yes.
[1:12:28] Right? There's this old country song, take this job and shove it. I ain't working here no more. My woman left and took all the reasons I've been working for.
[1:12:37] Right?
[1:12:38] Which is that, you know, your girlfriend. Well, no, this is the incel thing, right? The incel thing is, why would I get a job and slog my way up the corporate ladder if I can't even get a girlfriend or won't get a girlfriend? Because men work in general for women and kids. That's why we have such a ridiculous amount of work ethic and the testosterone and the aggression. We work, we are given way too much productivity for one person because we're designed to be productive for like 10 people.
[1:13:07] Right. Exactly. Yeah.
[1:13:08] Okay. Right. So your parents fall into the statistically significant category of 98% of the human race.
[1:13:18] 98% of all people. Yeah, that clocks.
[1:13:23] I mean, Elon Musk doesn't have to work. He keeps doing it. He's a workaholic, right? Peter Thiel and like all of these people, and some of them are working for good and some of them are working for ill. Bill Gates, right? But they don't have to work, but they keep doing something right so now in general and and elon musk what is he just got he just got sued by the sec because he paid too little for twitter even though uh twitter was vastly undervalued from what he bought it at anyway so so yeah they face uh some significant negatives and oh it's the trump phenomenon right trump trump is kind of incomprehensible to people who are rational calculators of benefits and costs because trump could have spent you know the last 20 years or 15 years or whatever of his life you know being fated traveling the world enjoying his grandkids enjoying his money and so on right uh but instead he chose to get impeached sued charged shot convicted you know whatever it is right yeah i don't know convictions will probably be overturned And I think the last conviction had no punishment whatsoever. But, you know, he's chosen this path, which is clearly not a cost-benefit calculation.
[1:14:41] And so for people, and this is the big divide in the world, and this is maybe you and your family, is the people who are doing things for the sake of ideals are incomprehensible to those who are rational calculators. who calculate cost benefits. Because what they always say, the people who, are cost-benefit people looking at the idealists, they say, well, there's got to be some hidden motive.
[1:15:17] Yeah, right.
[1:15:18] Right? Like, Stef, why would you talk about IQ? There has to be some hidden motive, right? Why would Trump do this? There has to be some hidden motive of racism or xenophobia. It doesn't make any sense that he's doing it for the thing itself. There's gone, and this is why the left is always throwing these hysterical imaginary motives at people. which is kind of what your parents like, why, why are you talking about this? What's your goal?
[1:15:45] It's, it's frankly kind of incomprehensible. It's still kind of incomprehensible to me too.
[1:15:52] What is it?
[1:15:53] It's kind of doing, I don't have anything. I mean, I would say I'm part of that 98% right now.
[1:16:00] Well, we all have, like we all blend. There's nobody a hundred percent one way or the other. Right. So it's the predominant, right? It's like 60, 40 or 70, 30 or 80, 20 or whatever. right so your parents are like they can't probably they can't comprehend that you just you need to tell the truth you need to ask them these basic questions you need to follow follow this path to truth and connection because that's what you want and you value the truth, they have to say wait wait what's your what's your aim here what's your goal here what are you what are you playing at what are you what are you what are you trying to achieve what's your strategy Yeah, yeah, yeah. What am I not aware of, right? And you hear this in call-in shows when there's these long pauses and people are trying to figure out where I'm trying to, quote, lead people when I'm just trying to get to the truth.
[1:16:49] It's sort of a mutual exploration. It's not me trying to lead people with some predetermined. I usually don't know what the heck I'm doing for the first half of the call, just gathering info, right? So when you sit down with your parents and say, i i want to talk and i did a call-in show this morning where we did a role play which was kind of like oh i can't change the past why would you even bring this up like what's your goal what's your plan and so if you're into the truth and you just want to tell the truth to people and and so on well that's that's a motive right but it's not a cost benefit yeah yeah.
[1:17:31] I mean, obviously, the truths that I've spoken have been a little costly from time to time.
[1:17:37] Yeah, quite a little bit.
[1:17:38] Quite a little bit, right?
[1:17:39] Yeah.
[1:17:39] And so...
[1:17:40] A decent bit.
[1:17:41] And so the people who are upset or offended by the truths that I'm telling, they have to assume that I have a nefarious motive because they would not be motivated by the truth. So when people say, well, only a bad guy would pretend to be motivated by the truth, there's a hidden agenda. all they're saying is that well I'm not motivated by the truth and I can't imagine anyone who is so you just must have nefarious motives.
[1:18:08] Right and I guess to some extent too like if you were motivated by simply telling the truth but you were trying to get an end out of it you'd be manipulating the truth and thus just be manipulating and that's not very truthful either right like if I was telling partial truth that's still lying and that's not the truth that's still cost benefit because it's just manipulative and, I guess that's probably pretty nasty, too. You could use philosophy to a pretty bad end if you did that.
[1:18:36] Well, philosophy was invented for bad ends. It's only recently that we're able to try and wrestle it for the cause of good, right? And people who have a profitable falsehood don't like it when, at least to them, a non-profitable truth comes along. Now, they'll pretend that it's all about the truth, but really it's just all about the profit, right? So there's a huge amount of money, literally trillions of dollars around the world are swashing back and forth because of the idea that everyone's the same, therefore all inequalities must be the result of prejudice. and if we start talking about you know the other factors and so on then people get mad at that because it's threatening trillions of dollars now they can't be honest about that so then they have to just they they themselves have nefarious motives right that they want to profit from this social division and all the money that comes in as the result of this belief but they can't say that right so then they say they project their nefarious motives onto whoever's telling the truth about these things and then they say well he must be a bigot or he must be this is a misogynist or whatever, right?
[1:19:43] Right.
[1:19:44] So this rational calculator thing, if you're interested in philosophy, then you pursue the truth because the truth has value, Because it's true. Not the truth has value because it makes me money, or the truth has value because it makes me look good, or the truth has value because it gets me girls, or whatever, right? I mean, negging is, in a sense, lying, because hopefully you get into an insecure girl's pants, right? So if you're interested in philosophy, the truth has value because it's true, and good has value because it's good. But for people who are cost-benefit calculators, that's incomprehensible motive it does not compute or process to them or to put it another way, their avoidance of their own bad conscience prevents them from knowing that some people are motivated by the truth like one example i you know mark zuckerberg's re-emergence as a minor testosterone-laced lizard man it's a little little sketch it's a little little sus but a.
[1:20:48] Little sus I'm a little suspect of it, yeah.
[1:20:51] But he said in the interview with Joe Rogan, he said, you know, that iconic image of Trump shouting fight after having just been shot in the ear. You know, the flag. And I mean, look, I mean, I don't care who you are. I don't care what you think of Trump. That's iconic and that's powerful. Because what he's saying is, I have a motive beyond safety, beyond profit. And the more it costs Trump, and it has cost him enormously to run for office and to be in office, and it's cost him financially, reputationally, I'm sure it's been strained on his marriage, like, he's been shot at multiple times, and it's not like that's all over, right? Right. by no cost-benefit calculation that makes any kind of sense. He's in it for the good of America, and whatever, you know, you can be skeptical about that, but it becomes increasingly difficult to be skeptical about that. And you could also disagree that what he's doing is for the good of America, but that certainly is empirically his motive, because it's cost him so much to...
[1:21:56] Regardless of the result, his motive is outside of some simple cost-benefit, right? Yeah, it's cost him that much, right.
[1:22:02] So they have to ascribe all of these nefarious motives to Trump, because it is an attack from their bad conscience to accept and recognize that some people do what they consider the good for the sake of the good. And whatever you can say about Trump, he's, you know, agree or disagree, but he certainly is doing what he's done because he believes it's the good and the right thing to do. It's the same thing with Elon Musk buying x in part because he values free speech right and and has it cost him yeah and you could say oh yes but trump got elected he's made some money i get all of that but that sure as heck was not the plan back in the day right so he has what x to try and further the cause of free speech, and so people can't comprehend that someone is going to try and pursue a moral goal for the sake of that moral goal, it's terrifying to people that the 2% exist.
[1:23:10] Yes.
[1:23:11] Because if the 2% can do good for the sake of doing good, why can't the 98%? Especially because that's what they claim to value, and that's what they tell themselves they are doing. But to actually then say to do it, to go from theory to practice in the cause of virtue is the most extreme sport there is because the stakes are so high.
[1:23:41] I wanted to add that it sounds, what I've gathered from my work is that being philosophy, the process, I guess, of becoming that 2% is effortful. You don't just have it. It takes effort. Yeah. and diligence, which is, you know, it's blended, you know, there's cost benefit there. And if I, now I kind of see it that way, you know, I can, it's not, it's not, does it just happen? It's not like you're just screwed or something. If you're 98% of people versus the 2.5%.
[1:24:13] Well, the 98% is 98% because it works biologically.
[1:24:19] Yeah.
[1:24:19] You get to meet and date, get married have kids raise your kids in a fairly stable belief system environment not rocking any boats right it's sort of like and and i don't even massively begrudge the 98 except for the hypocrisy because as i sort of said before you can't like in order for evolution to work not you can't have everything mutate all at once but you've got to have a generally stable gene pool with a couple of tweaks here and there. So the fact that most people are just cost-benefit calculators who are pretending to be virtuous, it is what it is. I hope that will be different in the future with better parenting and better education and so on, but that is what it is. And then people come along and actually embody the virtues that everyone claims, to value, right? Everybody claims, this is a funny thing, it's a funny thing in life, that everyone claims to value the truth teller who takes arrows for the cause. Everyone.
[1:25:19] But then they don't take the arrows.
[1:25:21] No, they fire the arrows. Oh, they shoot them.
[1:25:24] Oh, shit. Okay.
[1:25:25] They fire the arrows. They're like, damn, I love those, I mean, I love those guys who, you know, look at Superman or, you know, whatever heroes or Jesus or Socrates or Aristotle, Like all the people are like, ah, you know, the Galileo being tortured by the church for whatever, right? So everybody admires those people as long as it's far enough away that it doesn't impact them personally. But then when they have a truth teller in their midst, they join the mob and attack the truth teller and thus betraying everything they claim to value.
[1:26:06] All hands on deck all hands on deck go get them get them right.
[1:26:10] Right i mean socrates founded his founded the socratic method on asking tough questions of those in authority of those who claim to have knowledge of those who claimed to teach and so i with with happiness and positivity, went into my courses on philosophy and other things with very challenging questions, for the professors who often got quite annoyed, and the students got quite annoyed. It's like, no, no, no, no, stop asking difficult questions. That's annoying. Let's go back to studying the guy who asked difficult questions, who's the greatest philosopher that ever lived.
[1:26:47] Of all time. We're not here to study the truth. We're here to, what's on, is this going to be on the test? Is this going to be on the test?
[1:26:55] Right, right. So the calculation thing is, is this going to be on the test? If you, let's say that they were doing a video on photosynthesis right okay so if you're absolutely fascinated by photosynthesis you're never going to ask if this is on the test because you're just going to be fascinated by it you're going to.
[1:27:14] Be done yeah.
[1:27:15] Yeah yeah like i remember when i first saw at atari 400 in my math class when i was, i don't know maybe 12 years old i was like oh this thing's incredible right and and i went every saturday to the computer lab to learn how to program i rented i borrowed the computers home for the weekend i uh you know i i just did everything i could to learn about these amazing machines so i pursued it for the thing itself because it wasn't until many years later that i became a computer programmer for a living right so right so pursuing it for the thing itself is very rare and there is no test it's not on the test so on the test is if you don't care about photosynthesis and the teacher is showing you the video because the teacher has a headache, right or it's hung over which happens it happens right so the teacher's kind of hung over and he's like oh man just just put this video on and keep the kids quiet i i'm too hung over to lecture or something and it's not going to be on the test right and if you don't care about photosynthesis you won't pay any attention.
[1:28:24] So, I mean, for me, it's the difference between learning to play piano and getting singing lessons, right? I like to sing. I don't like to play piano. So I never really studied piano. I tried a couple of other instruments, even did violin for 10 years, but it was never a right particular thing. But I like to hum and sing from time to time. And I took singing lessons in theater school and all that kind of stuff. So if you love the thing for the thing itself, you make no sense to the cost-benefit calculators. And then they say, well, there must be some hidden thing. There must be some hidden thing that I'm not aware of, because the idea that somebody could do it for the thing itself is an affront to my vanity. because I think I'm virtuous, but when I see somebody actually pursuing virtue, then I recognize that I'm only borrowing the cloak of virtue and putting on, you know, like those t-shirts. Have you seen these? Let's talk about the wraps, right? So there are these funny wraps that you can get for women for the beach, and the wraps show an incredibly curvaceous female figure, and even old grats can wear it, right?
[1:29:28] Right, like on, right, okay, yeah.
[1:29:30] Right, so it's a whole lot easier to spend 30 bucks and buy that wrap than it is to get some fantastic figure, which is like hundreds or thousands of hours of dieting and exercise. And even if you have genetic capacity for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just buy the wrap and put it on, right? That's what most people are wearing, the skin suit of morality. And then they come across someone who actually embodies morality and it reminds them that they're just wearing a skin suit. They're not actually moral and that they're borrowing the cloak of virtue for their own vanity rather than inhabiting it as a real thing.
[1:30:03] Yes.
[1:30:05] So with regards to our relationship with the 98%, the 98% don't want us to embody virtue, because that way they recognize that they're only wearing the trappings and skin suit of virtue, that they're exploiting virtue for the sake of their own vanity and pretending to be good and admiring good and cheering on the good, right? rather than until it beats them actually yeah until.
[1:30:33] It see it.
[1:30:34] Right so when people are pretending like it's counterfeit currency right so bad money drives out good and good money drives out bad right so if you've got a whole bunch of counterfeit currency and then someone comes along with real currency and a counterfeit detection machine you're going to hate that person, because they're going to take away the value if you pretend money just as a truly virtuous person takes away the value of pretend virtue yeah, So, if you want to embody virtue, it has to be the defining factor in every one of your relationships.
[1:31:13] Yes.
[1:31:16] And it's not. It's something you talk about and something you kind of grudgingly pursue and you feel frustrated and helpless, but you're not. And I'm not telling you how much you should embody virtue in your relationships, but I'm telling you that if you want to be virtuous, virtue has to inform every single one of your relationships. And if you are in pursuit of the truth, you cannot have a relationship with people who are opposed to the truth. You can be around them, you can break bread with them, you could laugh at the same comedian, you can sing the same songs, but you can't actually have a relationship. That's real.
[1:31:55] Right. Right.
[1:31:57] And your parents are probing you to see, are you actually motivated by virtue? And if you're not motivated by virtue, then what people do is they apply negative stimuli to you until you stop yapping about virtue.
[1:32:14] Ah okay see that makes sense okay.
[1:32:16] Right so i talk about things that are controversial and then progressively more negative stimuli gets applied to me until i stop talking about the things that are controversial or at least until there's no audience and i have no effect i'm just sort of shouting in the wind so to speak right right right and that's the deal.
[1:32:40] And to try and transition people from the skin suit virtue to actual virtue, well the first thing they have to do is admit that they don't actually know what they claim to know this is the socratic thing oh you know what justice is let's let me ask you some questions and see if you really do know what justice is right and uh lo and behold he uh he found that people don't really know what justice is and then they killed him right yeah so can you can you get people to transition i don't know but you can't get people to transition if you yourself don't take it virtue seriously in other words virtue has to be that which pursues the truth to some degree not 100 right but that which pursues the truth regardless, of the cost-benefit analysis, right? That's what virtue has to be. Because if virtue is subject to a cost-benefit analysis, then it's not for the thing itself. It's like saying, I love this thing, but I'm only going to do it if people pay me $1,000 an hour to do it. It's like, well, no, no, if you love the thing, then you do it for the thing itself, not for the $1,000, right?
[1:33:47] Exactly.
[1:33:50] So again, there's some limitations, and I don't even know what it would mean to be 100% honest. that's sort of not a standard that would make much sense to me, but it is nonetheless where you have to come from as an idealist who pursues the truth for the sake of itself, and people have every right to test your commitment to the truth. Because they don't want to blow up their whole relationships like the woman working for the necklace and find out it was fake to begin with. They don't want to destabilize their marriage, blow up their relationships, question their God, their clergy, their government, their self, their soul, their virtue, their life, their history, their future, question everything. And then you just kind of run along with the herd. What they'll do is they will apply negative stimuli to you for pursuing the truth until you break or break through. in the same way that if you want to join a wrestling team and you say you're the best wrestler the wrestling coach is going to get the best wrestler to wrestle you to see if you are any good.
[1:34:53] And then we'll see if you're the good wrestler yeah.
[1:34:55] If you're a decent wrestler so if you say oh i'm into the truth and i'm into philosophy people will say okay well the test for that is can you survive negative stimuli in fact flourish from it and if you are willing to survive negative stimuli in pursuit of the truth then you may over time sometimes in history begrudgingly given the status of idealist or truth teller or philosopher or a man or woman a virtue yes, and this is what the purpose of internet trolling is is to apply negative stimuli to see if you are still dedicated in pursuit of the truth even when they came right yeah so so your family is saying to you again unconsciously or whatever but they're saying to you, hey man if you continue with this truth thing we're going to keep applying negative stimuli.
[1:35:52] They're trolling me.
[1:35:53] Well yeah and listen if if yeah and if you were a coach and somebody had real talent right but was lazy would you coach them, no no you wouldn't if you said to somebody hey man i can i can get you the gold medal but you're going to have to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning follow a rigid diet and train 3 hours or 4 hours or 5 hours a day with one rest day, and somebody said oh man I'm not going to do that then you'd find someone else to coach right? Yes. So without discipline, there is no progress. And so the coach is saying, in order for you to be my athlete, in order for me to coach you, you have to show me that you can survive and maybe even flourish under the negative stimuli of getting up crazy early, slunking eggs, and doing 4 billion sit-ups a week.
[1:36:50] Under the discipline of leaving your parents behind and enacting consequences to them. That's what that kind of relates to.
[1:37:02] Right, so I've always said, if you're going to take up philosophy as a journey, then expect that not a lot of people will come along. But those you meet on the way will be far greater treasure than anything you left behind. I mean, the people I have in my life now, their little finger is worth more than the entire crew I grew up with.
[1:37:29] Yes.
[1:37:31] And if you want to stay with rational calculators while pretending to be an idealist, it's going to tear you in two.
[1:37:40] It has. It frankly very much so kind of has by this point.
[1:37:47] Right. So when you get, when you see couples and you perceive them to be in love and it makes you angry and in particular at your mother, you think that that's your mother who is keeping you from love, but it's not. That's why it's not resolved. Who is keeping you, who is keeping you from love?
[1:38:15] I don't know. I don't know. I know, I know, I know, I know, but I...
[1:38:22] Well, you. Well, you. You are keeping you from love because love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous.
[1:38:38] If we're virtuous.
[1:38:39] And you have been dragging... every sunburned skank from the bowels at the bar and trying to make a quality relationship. So you're saying, man, I just want a fantastic basketball team. And then you choose some 80-year-old guy who's missing an arm.
[1:39:02] Go to the retirement home.
[1:39:03] Right, and then you say, man, my mother is keeping me from having a great basketball team. It's like, nope, it's your choice. Your choices. Your choices.
[1:39:11] Oh, it's me. Yeah, it's me.
[1:39:17] Imagine you're picking up some woman who's obvious trash and i'm sorry to be so harsh but i'm just going to be vivid right i mean if she was calling in i'd have sympathy for her too but let's just be vivid right so if you're just picking up some obviously trashy woman at the bar and let's say there's some virtuous quality woman in there what does she think of you.
[1:39:37] What the fuck are you doing?
[1:39:39] This guy's got no standards.
[1:39:41] What is going on with this guy?
[1:39:42] He's got no standards, no filter. He'll bang anything with the pulse. He's R-selected. He's a rabbit, not a wolf. And I'm going to stay away from him before I get an STD because he touches my glass. Right?
[1:39:57] I'll say I haven't actually slept with anybody, by the way. It's been wholly unsuccessful.
[1:40:02] Did I say sleep with anyone? I said pick her up.
[1:40:05] Pick her up. Exactly.
[1:40:06] Who are you pursuing? trash well if there's some woman and if there's some woman and you see her pursuing some trash guy, you know tattoos and and nose piercings and bizarre affect but he's tall right or whatever her particular fetish is if you see a woman like i just it's funny because i just made this example in the last call in this morning which was there was this guy who put his picture online or a picture online of some super good looking guy who in his bio said that he had been convicted and served time for domestic assault on a woman.
[1:40:44] Domestic assault yep the the dating app guy he was like a handsome guy.
[1:40:48] Yeah he gets like 800 a lot of messages right he gets like 800 women are like well it's good that you're honest i can fix you you know but you are handsome right and yeah and then you know because what someone did was they took a list of all the reasons why uh people say oh well incels can't get date maybe they smell bad and then this they put a chat guy up who said i don't bathe.
[1:41:10] I don't shower.
[1:41:12] I don't shower i don't bathe right get used to my natural stench because there'll be a whole lot of it and the women are like oh that's intriguing right so it's it's not real right that this and there's also a rather sad picture of a guy, who's just got he's just not handsome he's got a funny looking face he's got a funny looking head Like, not quite Mark Andreessen Conehead, but he's got, like, a funny head, and... He said, oh, shave your head if you're balding. You'll look cooler. And he did shave his head. Oh, get a tan. And he got a tan. Oh, work out. And he got masculine. But he still looks like a funny-looking guy.
[1:41:48] Yeah.
[1:41:49] Right? I mean, your face is your face. Your bones are your bones, right? Yeah. So when you see women chasing after a guy who beats up women and doesn't bathe, what do you think of them?
[1:42:05] Well part of me is like dang i wish i i guess i should have looked like that but there's also the part of me that's like well i want anything to do with that kind of woman in the first place that's not very.
[1:42:15] Well and that's that's your r selected which i understand that's your r selected versus k selected that's your quantity versus k selected.
[1:42:23] Yeah the k selected part of me is like okay so of all the women i've seen in my life and relationships all of them are probably acting and doing things like this i don't want any part of that frankly because yeah it's like why would i want anything to do with a woman who's going to choose that.
[1:42:44] Right no sense of self-protection vainglorious interstatus not virtue and and then who will doubtless later complain that the guy is mean after he literally put on his bio that he's a wife beater or girlfriend beater.
[1:42:56] He's gonna beat her up yeah.
[1:42:57] Okay so let's ask the final question this is the final boss question and the final of boss question is what's your favorite female name cecilia cecilia oh no now that song is stuck in my head you can't ever name anyone cecilia because now that song is stuck in my head all right so okay cecilia i'll take that no no that's fine cecilia uh you meet her and you say yeah like i'm a virtuous guy i'm really into philosophy and so on right and then she comes over for for a full day, a full day, you know, brunch, lunch, barbecue at night, a full day with your family of origin. Right? Mother, father, siblings, you name it, right? Extended family. How does she experience that day?
[1:43:48] Well, if I, if she's, she's probably just going to see, it's probably going to be pretty distant. They're probably not going to, they're going to kind of be cautious, kind of not really interested. They'll talk about me a lot. They'll say, oh, I did it again. Pardon me. Sorry. They're going to say, oh, he's got a, you know, he's got a history. He's kind of funny. We love him. but there won't be any yelling. There won't be any nonsense.
[1:44:23] So does she know that you felt mistreated by your family as a child?
[1:44:27] Oh, yes.
[1:44:27] Okay. So let's say she knows that you felt significantly mistreated by your family as a child, that you have a lot of anger at your mom, and then she sees you around your mom. What does she see?
[1:44:38] Oh, what she would see is very likely passivity, cordiality. She'd see me like.
[1:44:46] She'd see hypocrisy. yeah she.
[1:44:49] Would want to make your personality.
[1:44:50] Oh i really hate this woman oh thank you mama for that lovely little bit tea and crumpets.
[1:44:56] Thank you for the dinner thank you for the dinner.
[1:44:58] Oh so nice to see you oh here's my here's my girlfriend oh all right she would see this you know kind of repulsive right yeah.
[1:45:08] It would be like what the what the heck what the what the heck is going on here.
[1:45:12] This guy can put on quite a contemptibly hypocritical social face and again i say this i was i was more guilty it's not a contest i was more guilty of this than you because i did all of this for a lot longer than you've been alive so i'm i say this with all humility but it's gross, right and it shows that you're subjugated that you're conquered territory that you're owned and that you talk tough except two people.
[1:45:47] 100%.
[1:45:48] It'd be like if you saw, if you're a woman and you saw your boyfriend texting savagely with some guy who turned out to be in the same restaurant and then immediately cringed and apologized and cowered. That would be gross, right? If the keyboard warrior suddenly had the six foot four wrestler looming over him and he's like, oh, so sorry. Oh, I didn't mean to. right? So... So Cecilia would see something. Now, she would have sympathy for it, of course, right? She would understand, but she wouldn't respect, right?
[1:46:28] No, not at all.
[1:46:30] Okay.
[1:46:30] I wouldn't.
[1:46:30] So you can't have Cecilia in your life if you're still cowering around your family. Like, I'm sorry, I don't make the rules. I certainly don't make the rules of female desire. But a woman wants a man to be a provider and a protector. And if you're scared of mom She's not going to feel safe with you Because then she's going to know Oh man if I get married to you, I'm going to have to fight Your mother-in-law's power over you Which appears to be infinite Your corrupt mother's power over you Appears to be almost infinite And I'm going to spend the next 50 years Trying to battle that crap, And you're in conflicts between me and your mother Who are you going to side with.
[1:47:15] I'd like to say you, but in that case, it'd probably be mom, right?
[1:47:19] No, if mom applies pressure, then you'll side with mom. Or you'll try to appease.
[1:47:22] I'm on mom's side.
[1:47:23] Right. So the least reasonable and most aggressive and cruel person will own my husband, and I'll be running along like a lost little lamb, bleeding for him to have some integrity, and he'll betray me at just about every turn.
[1:47:38] Right. And we don't want that.
[1:47:39] Is she going to want that? Is she going to want her kids to see that? Is she going to want her son to have that modeled for him? no and again there's no point trying to rewrite the rules of male or female desire men are visual creatures well that's unfair doesn't matter not going to change, you can't breed it out in real time and women need to see a strong man who doesn't get pushed around, So you're not angry at your mom. Your mom is who she is. You're angry at yourself at being pushed around by your mom or your dad or both or whoever, right? And the reason that you're angry, at these couples is maybe you have the perception that they have all of this happiness that is denied to you. But the problem is that the higher quality woman you date, the more she's going to bail when she meets her family of origin. And the lower quality of woman you date, the more she'll be comfortable with your family of origin, which means you never get to escape your childhood.
[1:49:08] Oh, yeah.
[1:49:10] So it's a paradox. The only people who'll stick around are people like mom. And then you blame your mother for that. And look, I'm not saying that your mother treated you well, and I'm not saying your mother's not responsible for this dysfunction. She absolutely is. But you can't change her. You can only change yourself. I could change my mother. I could only change my relationship with my mother. I could only change my decisions with regards to this stuff, if that makes sense.
[1:49:39] Yeah. I am. Yeah. That clock.
[1:50:01] You can't change others, man. You can't change other people. All you can do is change yourself and see if they're inspired. I mean, my friends, and of course a lot of the slander that's out there about me, is to try and prevent people from being inspired by what I do, and thus pursue philosophy and the truth.
[1:50:25] Yeah, it's like defamatory and just kind of rude. It's like, ah, dismissive. Ah, yeah, that guy, ah, whatever.
[1:50:30] Oh, yeah, yeah, that terrible guy. But, you know, I've been curious, although it's getting kind of late in the game now, right? But I was curious for many years, like if any of the people that I knew when I was growing up and even were friends with throughout my sort of early to mid-20s, whether they'd ever send me a message and say, wow, you know, you really did kind of make something of yourself. wow you really seem to be happily married you know i listened into a show with your daughter and obviously you guys have a great relationship like you did something right man and you know yeah, maybe you could but now of course you know we're all in our mid to late 50s actually late 50s now so it's kind of late in the game you know it's like trying to become a ballet dancer in your 40s like too late in the game so i don't expect but you know i've been doing this for 20 years and, i suppose when i met my wonderful wife and we just celebrated our 22nd wedding anniversary, and i you know i guess i would have been kind of curious if people who had bad relationships or bad marriages or whatever had contacted me at some point saying oh you've kind of put it all out there and do you have any tips or you know anything like that right uh but they do yeah.
[1:51:47] I I was in the boat of that's all not just, revelatory, it's also pretty actionable too, but the one thing, emotionally I was the one thing that stops me from just saying tonight, just going in and saying it's over, I'm done, I'm not talking to you guys anymore.
[1:52:09] Or just having that direct conversation. Right? Like real direct.
[1:52:13] Yeah, even that much. It's just like Like, I don't, I've never met that quality person. I'm just afraid.
[1:52:23] Well, no, no, hang on, hang on, hang on. You might have met that quality person, but they judged you first.
[1:52:32] Poorly. They judged me, yes. And then they didn't, yeah, I did not know them.
[1:52:36] And let me tell you one other thing. I'll keep this brief, but it's an important thing. Sometimes people get into philosophy in order to continue their parents' dominance over them.
[1:52:48] Okay.
[1:52:49] Right? So if you, as a kid, you desperately need things from your parents, right? You need their approval, you need their protection, you need their resources, their food, their shelter, like you desperately need things from your parents.
[1:53:02] And when you become an adult, you know, technically and economically and physically, you don't need these things from your parents anymore, right? You can provide them yourself.
[1:53:13] Now, if you're so used to your parents having so much power over you, it could be tempting to pursue philosophy and be desperate for your parents to change. And that way, your parents then have power over you again, because they can reject your desperate requests for change. So you can pursue philosophy sometimes, in part, not entirely, but it's certainly possible to pursue philosophy in order to retain your desperate need for your parents' change and approval and support, which you no longer need because you're not physically dependent on them, but now you've maintained that need psychologically in this sort of repetition compulsion thing that you pursue ideals. I mean, listen, I've thought about this myself quite a bit over the years. Did I pursue philosophy in part to continue the world's attack and rejection of me that I experienced as a child? Is this a repetition compulsion about all of this? And I've obviously been pretty rigorous in examining that within myself, and I think the conclusion I've come to, which is just touch on in passing, is not that I did it to continue the attacks and rejections that I experienced as a child, but that I utilized my capacity to survive and flourish under attack and rejection to continue promoting the truth. In other words, I used the strengths in my childhood to survive attacks rather than saying what I'm saying in order to provoke attacks, if that makes sense.
[1:54:37] Can you repeat that in a different way? I think I get it, but I want to make sure I got it.
[1:54:41] Sure. So... I did not provoke the world into attacking and rejecting me in the same way that I was attacked and rejected as a child because of any kind of repetition compulsion. Well, I'm just somebody who gets attacked and rejected, so I'm just going to keep prodding the world until it attacks and rejects me, and then I'm just in this horribly familiar place or whatever, right? But I think what did happen is that I developed a lot of resilience to being attacked and rejected because I had to, to survive as a child. And I used those strengths to survive the attacks and the rejection in the pursuit of truth rather than mindlessly provoking with the end goal of being attacked and rejected, because that's my familiar space.
[1:55:32] So in essence, the refining of that resilience from your childhood was not designed to go back and fight or defend or stop the abuse that you received. It augments you. It's not like you're doing all this work for the purpose of changing or changing. exacting revenge on the past or something i'm not sure how i would describe it right but it's augmenting your.
[1:56:05] Ability to function and part of you know i have my good moral reasons for not going back on twitter or other places or you know in this sort of new era of maybe minimize censorship of trying to rebuild my platform because if i was goading the world into becoming my mother because that's all i'm familiar with is being attacked and rejected if i'm just like well all i am is attacked is a fixed belief i'm attacked and rejected so i'm just going to keep poking the world until it attacks and rejects me and i'm in that familiar place right so i said okay well what happens if i'm not poking the world if i'm not poking the world then i if it was a repetition compulsion if i'm not poking the world then i should feel increased anxiety and a massive desire to poke the world and provoke it into attacking me because that's what i need in a simon the boxer repetition compulsion kind of way does that sort of make sense yes.
[1:56:58] Yeah exactly so and yeah so instead of yes it makes sense i'm trying to.
[1:57:04] Right so if i'm addicted to being attacked and rejected then when i stop provoking the world in the same kind of way then i should experience significantly negative psychological states as a result of withdrawal from my addiction but i didn't i didn't but you didn't exactly it was more like it's pretty sweet man this is pretty great so that's how i know it was not repetition compulsion.
[1:57:25] Yeah so it would be like you know you're imagining just standing in the middle of an empty room and you're like scrubbing your head you're like oh i'm in so much pain and then you just open your eyes and there's you're like oh wait.
[1:57:35] Well you know as you know i have you know one percent of the streaming audience that i used to have and i know exactly how i could get streaming audiences back i know right and i'm find not doing that, which means it's not an addiction. In fact, I prefer what I'm doing now than what I was doing before. I think it's more meaningful and more long-lasting and so on, right? So anyway, I don't want to make it too much about me, but the reality is that sometimes people come up with something that they desperately need their parents to change in order for their parents to continue to have power over them by not changing. And sometimes that can be philosophy or idealism or self-knowledge or something like that, maturity.
[1:58:21] I understand.
[1:58:21] And you but you should not have an endless experiment with people, which means for me uh you know however you know i think i had three uh major confrontations with my mother and maybe one or two with my dad but you don't have endless experiments right you you keep telling the truth and if you keep getting rejected attack rejected and attacked for telling the truth at some point you just have to accept that also knowing that if somebody rejects and attacks you unjustly like you tell the truth about your experiences they reject and attack you, they have a very short window of apologizing before self-justification kicks in. And once self-justification kicks in, they won't change. Once somebody has justified their own actions, they will not change. Then they have to admit not only did they do wrong, but they also lied to themselves about it at your expense, calling themselves the good guys and you the bad guys. I'm sorry, go ahead.
[1:59:23] Right. So you mean like there's a window of time after the act and before the apology would come out where that justification happens. It gets hardened.
[1:59:34] Usually not more than 24 hours, max. I mean, I've never had somebody do me wrong and apologize more than 24 hours after the act. Well, you know, I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't say that, but certainly not because of anything I did. Like I've had, I can think of a couple of trolls over the years who later called up to apologize, but it wasn't because of anything I did.
[1:59:57] But in general, in general, and also they've never offered to make massive restitution. They've never said, hey man, I trashed your reputation all over the place. you know here's a huge donation to cover up for it it's always like i feel bad and i'm like i'm really bad at holding grudges for the most part uh so i'm like yeah fine whatever i'm gonna move on my when you have a life that's really good it's tough to hold grudges i still remember things and you know normally i won't intervene if somebody who's caused me to suffer ends up suffering themselves i certainly won't intervene on their behalf but uh for certainly my personal life in my personal life i've never had someone do me wrong i mean people do me wrong and they'll you apologize, you know, usually pretty quickly, just as I do when I do someone wrong. But I've never had it in my personal life where someone who's done me wrong has called me up more than 24 hours later and apologized, and that's because in that time frame, they feel some tension. Oh, I did something wrong, right? And they either apologize or they resolve that tension by justifying themselves and making me the wrong party.
[2:01:05] Right.
[2:01:08] So, yeah, so the problem is with your parents, you have a couple of conversations that they feel discomfort at what you're saying. And the problem then becomes if they can apologize relatively quickly, that's great. But this is why you can't have endless...
[2:01:28] I'm guilty of that.
[2:01:29] I'm guilty of that. You can't have endless interventions because it's not recognizing that the fact that the brain will automatically come up with self-justifications in situations of conflict. Either you apologize, or you self-justify. There's no other possibility. And if people repeatedly self-justify, it becomes practically impossible for them to change. Because then they have to admit that they did you further wrong by attacking you, like you did something wrong. Sorry, they did something wrong to you, and then you bring it up with them, and then they attack you and maybe especially if they've also spread lies about you oh so and so just went crazy he just got involved in this cult and like if they've really slandered you and it's really really hard to repair oh man that's that's that's really rough yeah that's really rough all right is there anything else that you wanted to mention how we're doing as far as value of the cold guys um.
[2:02:28] Hi it's just that i had one more it's just the uh, You mentioned it. I think you actually addressed the question with the, did I meet a virtuous person before? And they judged me to be, you know.
[2:02:46] Yeah, that's the urgency. They judge you negatively. That's the urgency because you never know when the great woman is coming along. And you might only meet one or two over the course of your entire life because of that whole 98% thing. No, seriously, this is why there's urgency. This is why it's important not to wait. If I'd waited to do therapy and then met my wife, you know we probably wouldn't be together right so you never know when that amazing woman is going to cross your path and you better be fucking ready and you better have all your ducks in a row and you better be prepared because that chance this is this kevin samuel things like you always say like what makes you ladies think that you're just going to get endless chances at love, right especially if you're looking for someone really rare that's insane yeah go ahead i.
[2:03:28] Was gonna say that's insane there's no way that makes sense especially knowing what i know about the majority of the people i talk to like if i met them they probably already are long gone or maybe it's like.
[2:03:38] Maybe maybe the maybe the low quality women you're trying to get with are rejecting you because you're high quality and they sense it and maybe they're throwing you back uh so that you could meet a quality woman in strange way that even corrupt people can aid virtuous people uh so maybe they're doing your favor because if you got involved in with one of these low quality women, right and then you ended up with a high quality woman crossing your path uh she would ignore you completely and keep looking so yeah you've got it you've got you never you do not know you do not know when the universe is going to spit up a high quality woman to cross your path you don't know you better be ready better.
[2:04:20] Be ready for it and then one one final just kind of maybe silly question but uh practically Basically, how do i handle that when it that's a silly question but i don't know i'm i don't know if i'll be able to handle that when it happens i don't.
[2:04:34] Well no no you you but you you've got to be ready for it like there's a story about the old band the police uh that they were playing some podunk town in the middle of a snowstorm and there were only three people in the audience, now they could have quit the show they could have done a lackluster performance they could have, just gone through the motions but sting was like no we give absolutely everything, to our performances even though there were only three people in the audience they gave it their all turns out one of them was a giant ass record producer who gave them a huge contract, the readiness is everything man and so when it comes to your life you're like oh i i can you know maybe i'll be honest with my family later maybe i'll clean up my relationships later it's like you don't know i might have met and i can even think of a couple of women i met in my 20s who were high quality, and they didn't want to have much to do with me. And I'm not blaming them for that at all. I mean, I think that was actually quite wise. And since I'm rapidly happy with the woman I ended up with, I'm not going to complain about any path that led me here. But you don't have forever.
[2:05:41] No.
[2:05:42] You don't have forever. It's kind of like if you want to be a ballet dancer, you don't have forever.
[2:05:49] Right.
[2:05:50] You've got to do it now. Be ready now. So yeah I guess.
[2:05:55] I guess get ready to go.
[2:05:56] She could be tomorrow man And if you weren't ready tomorrow she's going to come and buy She's going to come and go and you won't even know She was there.
[2:06:08] What just one more thing before i go when you think of quality what's the first thing that comes to your mind i'm trying to refine my definition too well.
[2:06:17] Curiosity and integrity really.
[2:06:22] Curiosity integrity not like towards me specifically but just towards the world right not like.
[2:06:26] What do you mean towards the world i don't know i mean you.
[2:06:29] Only know somebody's meeting.
[2:06:31] You when they're talking to you so let's just make it about you.
[2:06:33] Sure um okay then that kind of answers the question then i was i guess not used to somebody having curiosity towards me so i guess when that happens i'll be on the lookout for it but also like they won't be doing that if they're high quality and they're showing curiosity and i'm low quality at that time when they introduce themselves into my life then it makes sense for them not let me let.
[2:06:55] Me play a high quality woman talking to you after a day with your family.
[2:06:59] Sure thing all.
[2:07:01] Right she would say hey man you don't you don't seem very connected when you're with your family you don't seem very happy when you're with your family what's going on.
[2:07:10] No it's like i told you they're unchanging rocks okay like i told you it's.
[2:07:19] An annoying thing to hear.
[2:07:20] Shit right.
[2:07:24] Because you're saying hey if you'd listen to me you wouldn't have this criticism let's try that again you You don't seem very connected with your family. You don't seem very happy. What's going on?
[2:07:38] I just, you know, I sit next to them and I'm talking to them and it's just, it feels like I'm back when I was 13 or 14 and it's the same exact people. There has been no change. I've tried to get them to change and show curiosity. And you saw the conversations. It's just the same slop. There's no engagement. There's no intrigue or interest.
[2:08:00] Yeah, she's gone. She's already left. Sorry.
[2:08:03] Yeah.
[2:08:03] Do you know why?
[2:08:05] Why?
[2:08:07] Because this is all false. You're just simply describing a negative experience, which she already knows you're having. So you're telling her something she already knows.
[2:08:22] And let me try again then.
[2:08:24] All right.
[2:08:24] Okay. Yeah, I have no idea. I just can't think of a situation where I'd want to be around them right now either. It's hard for me to imagine. My imagination is failing me. I'm sorry.
[2:08:52] Well, I mean, you are around them from time to time, right?
[2:08:56] Yeah.
[2:08:57] Okay. So if you say to a woman who just saw you around your family, I can't think of a situation where I'd want to be around with them she'd say well I can think of one the one I just saw.
[2:09:09] Right I um, uh I outside of the experience stuff I can't I'm not I'm I don't know what to say I don't know.
[2:09:27] Sure everything.
[2:09:28] I say would just be I mean.
[2:09:29] No so what you're trying to do is you're trying to minimize and justify. That's low quality. I'm not saying you're low quality. I'm just saying that particular response.
[2:09:38] It's a low quality action. It's a low quality response, right?
[2:09:40] It's a low quality response. You're trying to minimize and justify or complain. But a high quality person, when you complain about something you can change, puts you in the low-quality category? What's the most honest thing you could say to somebody who says you don't seem to be happy when you're spending time with your family? What's the most honest thing you can say?
[2:10:11] The first thing that comes to mind is it's all I know.
[2:10:18] Well, okay. But then that's a promise that nothing's going to change, right?
[2:10:22] Right. It's not very, that's like, you know, I do it out of habit. It's habitual. It's like, I can change it, but I don't, which means that I, I guess I want to be there, right?
[2:10:30] Yep. You prefer that to something else, which means that you will let other people make you unhappy for the sake of, hang on, you'll let other people make you unhappy for the sake of conformity. What's the most honest thing you can say about being unhappy around your family?
[2:10:48] That I prefer the discomfort.
[2:10:50] No, that's an analysis. And also, that is low quality because that's not going to change, right? I prefer discomfort and pleasing corrupt people. Okay, does she want to marry into that?
[2:11:04] No, of course not.
[2:11:05] Right. What's the most honest thing you can say? I'm miserable. I want to change things. I'm terrified.
[2:11:20] Yeah.
[2:11:21] Isn't that the most honest thing you can say?
[2:11:25] Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I, I can't think of anything that.
[2:11:33] I know it needs to change. I'm not happy there. I'm terrified.
[2:11:40] Of change. Yeah. I'm terrified. I don't know what, but I'm terrified.
[2:11:45] So do you see what i mean by the most honest response that's not a justification that it's also saying that you desperately want to change it but if you say you want to change it and you don't change it then your actions are incomprehensible but if you say i want to change it but i'm terrified then your actions are comprehensible and change is on the table does that make sense yeah.
[2:12:08] I was gonna it's funny i was gonna say that 20 minutes ago when i was asking my question about the it was a two-part question it was i'm horrified of what's gonna happen if i.
[2:12:22] Right you already told this is why i repeated it back to you you already told me i'm terrified to be alone if i confront my family yeah and so then i'm asking what's the most honest response You're like.
[2:12:31] Not that I don't know, Yeah, I do know That's why I know I.
[2:12:41] Want to be honest, I'm terrified of being honest I mean, that's the foundational human experience I want to be honest I'm terrified of being honest, Now, she's a quality woman Do you not think that she will have struggled with that too?
[2:12:59] I would imagine that she had.
[2:13:01] She absolutely will have And she will sympathize with you for that But she won't sympathize with any of that other nonsense You were talking about Because it's not direct Honest and open Right.
[2:13:18] It's not.
[2:13:19] Now, what's even better than a quality woman not watching you be miserable around your family of origin for a day is your family, is your quality woman not seeing you be miserable around any corrupt people.
[2:13:34] Right.
[2:13:36] Which means either you're honest with your family and eventually they welcome your honesty and you can be direct with them, or they're not in your life. But you won't want to sign up for this helpless dissociation and conformity to corruption. She's not going to want to do it because she will have already had her own struggles with that stuff and she will not want to go back.
[2:13:56] That's specifically. Of course not.
[2:14:02] Some woman who's just spent five years bringing her weight down to a sane level, is not going to want to date a fat guy who's barely even aware of the struggle. She's just not going to go back there. She's going to want to move forward in her life, not circle back. you would be amazed at how, I mean, when I talked about sort of my questions about my own capacity for repetition compulsion and my own criticisms of my own motives and so on, I don't think that you thought less of me. I think you thought probably something like, well, it's good that he, it's good that it crossed his mind. It'd be kind of crazy if it didn't, right?
[2:14:38] Absolutely. That's 100% what I was thinking.
[2:14:41] I've spent my whole life being attacked and rejected by the world. I wonder if I might have something to do with that. I wonder if that might be a hidden motive for me, right? That'd be crazy. No, it's the world's fault completely. I'm an innocent little lamb. You know what I mean? That would not be honest or with self-knowledge. All right. So, yeah, so that would be my, you know, you just got to be as honest as... as you can be. And if it takes you a moment, you don't have to answer right away. Consider your answer. Filter through. Is this honest? Is this direct? Is this a justification? Is this a minimization? Is this gaslighting? Is this self-pity? Right? Or is this just, no, I want to be honest. I'm terrified of telling the truth, which is a universal experience that everyone who's honest has gone through. And she will absolutely respect you for being direct about that. And she will sympathize with the journey that she's still going through that never ends by the way that journey never ends.
[2:15:44] Right it continues on um i'll just say that i that's been it is terror on all fronts if i'm honest with even the guys at work where i'm i feel pretty comfortable if i was genuinely honest i would probably lose my job i would probably lose i don't have obviously there's a cost benefit analysis there with how much truth do i tell at work because if i tell all.
[2:16:11] True well no but work right work is not a venue of personal honesty work is a venue of economic productivity in the same way that you wouldn't pay your girlfriend for a date you don't owe kisses to your co-workers right so you don't owe that direct kind of personal honesty to your co-workers because that is not an economic consideration, exactly okay all right okay i'm gonna stop here because this is my second three-hour call-in show or something like that so no no no problem i appreciate that and i hope i've managed to keep my energy up and uh i appreciate the call and i genuinely hope you'll stay in touch and let me know how things are going of.
[2:16:55] Course maybe i'll do another call in another six months when things have improved and there's more issues to overcome but you've given me a lot to basically two very sensual things.
[2:17:04] Yeah, ready your nest for the quality bird and you really can't go wrong. All right, keep me posted, brother. Thanks for the call today.
[2:17:09] Absolutely, Stef. Take care. Have a lovely anniversary time. Take care.
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