0:00 - Initial Concerns
0:41 - Daughter's Relationship Difficulties
2:16 - Upbringing and Its Impact
4:44 - Family Dynamics
5:35 - Breakup Reasons
6:46 - Relationship Expectations
7:53 - Reflections on Faith
10:51 - Navigating Parenting Challenges
23:22 - Daughter's Feelings on Father
24:33 - Second Daughter's Father
26:42 - Choices and Consequences
29:25 - Coping with Relationships
30:52 - Secrets and Lies
32:55 - Seeking Help
38:55 - Addressing Patterns
40:37 - Redemption and Honesty
57:49 - Future Conversations
1:16:32 - Moving Forward Together
In this deep call-in, Stefan and the caller engage in a deep and revealing conversation about the callers complex family dynamics, particularly concerning her two daughters. The discussion begins with the caller expressing her concern for his 31-year-old daughter, who has recently gone through a breakup with her fourth significant relationship. She reflects on her daughters romantic history and the potential impact of their family background on her relationship choices. Stefan encourages the caller to elaborate on her concerns, prompting a deeper exploration of the influence of the callers own experiences as a single mother on her daughters development.
Throughout the conversation, the caller reveals the struggles she faced as a single parent, including her agoraphobia and the absence of a father figure in her daughters lives. She discusses her history with both daughters fathers, detailing the complexity of these relationships, including the fact that she lied about the parentage of one daughter. Stefan probes deeper into the callers past and the rationale behind her decisions, leading to discussions about the trauma and dysfunction that stem from her upbringing in an unstable home environment. The caller acknowledges that her isolation and absence of positive male role models may have affected her daughters views on relationships.
As they discuss the emotional fallout of the previous relationship dynamics, Stefan emphasizes that the callers conflict avoidance and reliance on lies to navigate difficult situations could have been absorbed by her daughters. This insight leads to a critical examination of the patterns that may have formed within her family, particularly how these have influenced the relationships her daughters form in their lives. The conversation further explores her older daughters feelings of inadequacy regarding her father’s absence and her relationship failures, underlining how the longing for a father figure can manifest in her tumultuous romantic choices.
The caller expresses her desire to help her daughter but hesitates, uncertain of how to approach the issues that arise from their family history. Stefan suggests that the callers willingness to confront her past, including her dishonesty, could be a crucial step not just for her redemption but also for improving the quality of relationships for both daughters. They discuss how the pattern of unhealthy dynamics could continue if neither she nor her daughters address their emotional needs and communication issues openly.
The discussion also highlights the daughters’ individual experiences, as the caller reveals her younger daughter, now 20, has been kept in the dark about her fathers identity—a decision that weighs heavily on him. Stefan raises concerns about the consequences of this secrecy, questioning how it will play out in the daughters’ understanding of family and trust when they uncover the truth. The dynamic of first and second relationships for both daughters also becomes a focal point, leading to an inquiry into the ways context and past trauma have shaped their current struggles in maintaining healthy, long-term romantic relationships.
As the conversation progresses, Stefan and the caller discuss how the caller’s daughters might seek out relationships based more on emotional stability and authenticity if she chooses to embrace honesty as a guiding principle in the family. There’s a strong emphasis on the cyclical nature of these issues, with Stefan suggesting that breaking the cycle of conflict avoidance and dishonesty in the caller’s life may lead to more substantial changes in her daughters lives.
In the final parts of the conversation, the caller considers the idea of incorporating professional help into her daughters journeys, recognizing that counseling could provide them the tools they need to navigate their emotions and relationship choices. She also reflects on the potential for her 31-year-old daughter to gain insights from speaking directly with Stefan, which may help her through her current crisis of identity and choice in relationships. The dialogue ultimately culminates in a powerful realization about the impact of family legacies on future generations, with the caller contemplating the need for radical honesty to foster growth and healing within her family.
By the end, theres a sense of hope that through confronting the past and engaging in truthful discussions, not only can the caller begin to heal, but she can also help guide her daughters toward healthier, more fulfilling lives and relationships. The call closes on a note of optimism, with the callers intent to pursue these conversations further, potentially involving her daughters to help them navigate and understand their relationship with the past and each other.
[0:00] Stef, I'm all yours.
[0:01] It's all good. All right. All right. So, yeah, lay it on me. I mean, I did read your message, but I'm happy to hear more details.
[0:10] Yeah. And one more thing I'm going to do is to plug in my charger because this phone just may die. And I would hate that to happen, but wow.
[0:23] Okay. Sorry about all this.
[0:27] Okay. Wow. Well, when people parachute in unexpectedly, it's kind of a chaos sometimes. Okay, well, if the phone dies, I guess it dies. I can't find the charger. We may be good for a bit.
[0:41] Okay, so I have a particular daughter that I have concern about. She's 31, and I have a 20-year-old as well who lives with me. My 31-year-old, she has her own place, her own home. So, okay, so my concern about her, she had a recent relationship. It seemed she was really into it. It's about her fourth significant relationship that she's had. And I guess I'm concerned about how I can help her with, oh boy, this is really getting jumbled. I guess I'm trying to just put in a nutshell what my primary concern is, but I don't know. You want to ask some more questions?
[1:32] Well, no. Listen, don't worry about any of that. Just take your time. Okay. Yeah.
[1:38] That's what prompted me to reach out to you. Right.
[1:41] So she's just broken up with her fourth major boyfriend and do you know what the breakup was?
[1:48] That's confusing to me. So I think that she's confused. I think this is why I think it would be fantastic if she could speak with you and you could find out exactly what's going on with her. But I think that she's fallen somewhat susceptible to society's message to young women. I think that's a part of it.
[2:16] But I think it's deeper. I think, okay, I'm her mom, and there's probably elements of her upbringing that have come into this. I was single. She has a father but didn't have a lot of contact with him. I have never had a relationship that the kids have seen me in. I kept it very separate from my kids when I did date, which wasn't all that much. and so she's never had an opportunity to see a relationship growing up between a man and a woman so there's that I think she's had no no imprinting no demonstration of it she just had mom she's had some family members this and that so there's that there's just this big void in her upbringing that way.
[3:05] And as I said in my email, I've been a pretty isolated person throughout her upbringing, not where she might have and my other daughter would have noticed necessarily as kids, because, you know, I kept very involved in the community as far as bringing things to my kids. So, you know, they were part of a community, you could say, you know, in different ways, through sports, through church. I homeschooled my 31-year-old until she was 11. And then she went to a small Christian school.
[3:42] And, you know, we were part of a homeschool group. So, but I haven't, you know, as a teenager myself, or when I was a teen, At that point, I became very agoraphobic. I kind of had a breakdown and went through many years like that and then kind of pushed through that. But as a result, I've just had some handicaps socially myself and just been, you know, didn't bring a lot of people into their orbit. I did and I didn't. Like, nobody that they would have seen me having as a close friend or whatever. So I'm thinking that there were some very, there were some real gaps in what she saw, what she saw me being a part of in terms of relationships with just about anybody. And I, that could, that must have affected her in some way. I know that it's usually mom that's kind of at the background of, you know, adult children's problems. She could say, and I'm mom, so, you know, what can I do for her? That's a question.
[4:45] What was the story with her? Or was it different fathers for the two children or the same father?
[4:50] No, two dads, two kids, single.
[4:53] Okay, so what was the story with the fathers?
[4:56] Okay, so her father, I was with him when she was conceived and born. We lived together, but it didn't last. He was a part of visitation. He would come and see her and this and that. You know, there was a relationship until she was about
[5:19] A year and a half. Hang on. That's way too quick.
[5:22] We lived together. It didn't last.
[5:24] Come on.
[5:25] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[5:26] How old was she when you guys broke up? Did you fight a lot beforehand? What caused the breakup? Because that's her template, right? So just break it down a bit more.
[5:36] Yeah. The cause of the breakup. Well, I was a big cause of the breakup. I. Yeah. I was difficult. We weren't a good match. I don't know. I'm going to put it mostly on me. He was from Poland, younger than me, a little. And his Polish mother and father, especially his mom, didn't really approve of me. But his mom was very in love with her little granddaughter and so on. So I was somewhat welcomed in based on that. But she never, his mother wasn't, didn't really trust me. I don't know. It was a bit of a, I don't know, a bit of a preconceived notion about Canadians or I don't know what it was. But she had this bug where she seemingly thought that perhaps he was not the father of this child and she wanted him to get a DNA test and so on. And that's fine.
[6:41] Back then. Hang on. Were you married? No.
[6:43] No, no, no, we were not. We were not.
[6:47] Why weren't you married? You're Christian, right?
[6:51] Yeah. Why was I not married? I think being Christian, that does violate the Christian principles. You're right. There are times when somebody who is Christian falls in some way.
[7:07] No, no, I'm not trying to... This is not a big criticism thing.
[7:10] I'm not trying to... No, no, I'm not feeling criticized.
[7:13] Yeah, I'm just genuinely curious. I assume Polish, he was Christian, right?
[7:18] He was raised Catholic. He was not particularly... Oh, here's... Okay, interesting. I'm tripping down memory lane here now. Thank you for bringing it back. So he was raised Catholic and, you know, so on and so forth in his family. When I met him, he was not particularly devout in that way, more of an agnostic or even a little on the pagan side. I would have, I guess I was somewhat that way myself. He became...
[7:50] Sorry, you were or you weren't? Sorry, you were or you weren't?
[7:54] I am presently Christian. I'm presently Christian. I was not. so much at the time.
[8:00] Sorry, but not so much. It's sort of like being a little bit pregnant, as the saying goes, right? No. Not so much. Christian means you still believe in the general principles, or were you an atheist?
[8:13] I did. I believed in the general principles. I believed in God,
[8:18] The presence of God.
[8:19] I believed in Jesus and his life and sacrifice. So you were Christian? Yes. But I did some things against the faith.
[8:30] No, and my question is, I understand that you did some things against the faith. My question is, why? And saying, you know, I'm a sinner, blah, blah, blah. I mean, that doesn't help.
[8:41] No, you're right. To sort of understand,
[8:42] Right? And why would you go against what you believe?
[8:46] Okay. A bit of a rebelliousness against society. a feeling of being outside of society, not having family structure and friends structure, and all of that that kind of goes into the institution of marriage. And what I
[9:07] Mean by that... I'm sorry, do you mean that your parents weren't together?
[9:10] Well, at that time, my parents were long divorced, and when they were together, it was terrible. Yeah, very bad. So I think that might have been somewhat behind it. I don't know if you recall my email. I was very, very isolated in my teens, beginning in my teens, and going through my teens and then on from there, I had no friends for quite a while, no dating, nothing like that through my teens. I was incredibly shy and incredibly agoraphobic. And so, you know, I got into my adult years and I didn't have that circle, that group, that place in society, those people that most young women would have to, let's say, hypothetically invite to a wedding.
[10:13] When you're not a part of anything, societally, it just felt like, why, I don't know, it's hard to explain because there's two reasons to get married. There's the reason of you're making the commitment with the partner, sanctioned by God, permanent commitment within which you have the kids. And there's also a declaration to society and the party and the celebration. And, you know, you're changing your place within your group. And there was no group. I was completely, it just, in some ways, it seemed meaningless.
[10:50] Well, what about his group?
[10:52] His group? Okay. So he had a strong family. the, you know, the Polish circle of people, I guess, as a part of his family group and all that. He was a rather kind of a shy person, but not, you know, not the level that I'm describing that I was, although I wasn't so much once I met him. He was a quiet young man who had a close friend and that he hung out with and would go out and hunting with and this and that. But he was, he didn't have a big circle. And I think he, although he was a part of the community of the Polish, you know, so on, I just, I don't think he felt like he was a part of anything particular. Getting married just didn't have a big meaning for him either, I think.
[11:42] But it's not for you and it's not for him, it's for the kids.
[11:45] It is, yes. And at one point, okay, so.
[11:48] Sorry to interrupt. How old were you guys when you got married?
[11:51] Oh, my, well, we weren't married. Sorry, sorry. Or when we got together and had our child. That's okay. I had her when I was 32, and he was 22.
[12:02] Wow. No, I was 33.
[12:04] And he was 23. Okay. Yes.
[12:08] And how long were you together before?
[12:12] Before we had her?
[12:14] Yeah, yeah.
[12:16] A year and a half.
[12:18] Okay. Okay, so how long did the relationship last after your daughter was born?
[12:26] I'd say a year and a half. Okay. Another year and a half.
[12:32] So did you have any idea that the relationship wasn't going to last when you decided to have a baby?
[12:40] No, no, no, no, I didn't. And so when we were, after we had our child, At some point, he started to attend a church. It wasn't Catholic. It was almost like a cultish type of church. The pastor of the church... So, can I say his name?
[13:04] No, if you could stay off names and places. Yeah, just stay.
[13:07] Off names and places. Yeah, okay. Okay, so I'll call him Joel. So, Joel started to attend a church, and he was advised by the pastor that this was wrong, to be living unmarried. And so he took this as an indication that he should leave. And he went to stay with his parents. And I called the pastor. And the pastor said, no, he completely disagreed with him leaving us, that Joel had misunderstood that he should stay with us, but that we should work towards either a decision of marriage or not, but not just keep it in limbo. So he came back. He was very much following the advice of this pastor. And then we discussed, where is this going? And I was wanting to have this be a commitment, and I was wanting to marry at this point because of our child. And he decided that, and I think it was partly his mother, his mother was not in favor of our relationship. She was concerned that this was not his child. She had no basis for this, just basic suspicion of Canadian women,
[14:23] I think.
[14:24] And so he took that pretty seriously. And, well, okay, here's where it's my fault for the breakup. And so he kept believing this. and at one point I said to him you're right, it's not your child and the reason I said that, she was his child, there was no possibility of anyone else but the reason I said that was because his mother was going as far as to try to obtain custody of the child which is bizarre when I think of it now, she couldn't have, there was nothing wrong with my mothering or the circumstances but She was rabid on the idea that it would have been better for the baby to be living with her. I thought, no. I wanted to cut that off. I said what I said.
[15:29] You told he was 24 or 25 at the time? Yes. You said to him...
[15:35] Yes, he was young.
[15:36] You've got to let me get a word in edgewise here. We can't both be talking at the same time. All right. So you told the father of your child that the child was not his. I did.
[15:48] I did. He's. I did. And the backstory, as I just explained, as to why. But what I did after several years went by. My daughter and I, we moved and went and lived elsewhere for several years.
[16:05] Sorry. So, hang on. He left after that.
[16:09] Is that right? He did. He left us and went back to his parents and then went on from there to continue working and living in a
[16:18] Town near us. Sorry, did he say, if I remember this from earlier, you said that he had some visitation with your daughter?
[16:27] Well, he would come. It wasn't formal. It was, he was completely welcome and he would come on weekends. He lived, he worked and lived in a town where the commute was about 45 minutes. He would come on weekends. This was before the, you know, me making that, that announcement to him, telling him that lie. When we were split up.
[16:48] Hang on, hang on, hang on.
[16:50] Sure.
[16:51] So he wasn't living with you before you lied to him and said that the baby wasn't his.
[16:57] He was for a period of time. And then the pastor of that church told him that he shouldn't be living in sin.
[17:05] Okay, got it. And he moved out, yeah. So then he was visiting. He was. And then after you told him that his daughter was not his daughter, he left and he didn't come back. Is that right?
[17:16] And he did not come back. And I moved. I changed my living arrangement, moved to stay with friends at a more distant location. After several years, I realized, I knew it was wrong, but I really realized it. I contacted his mother and I said, well, I'm not sure, I can't recall exactly what I said, but basically that I'd like to reunite her with her father. And so the grandma came and visited and saw her daughter and then she told him and he began to come and see
[17:55] Her and we.
[17:56] Re-established relationships.
[17:58] Sorry, she told him what? Why would, I assume that you're...
[18:01] He wanted to come and screen.
[18:04] Hang on, hang on. So I assume that you told your boyfriend and then I assume he told his mother because he moved back in with his mother and she'd say, well, why are you back? And he'd say, because the child is not mine. And so for several years, his family believed or accepted your statement that the child was not his. So why was the grandmother coming? I mean, did she get a paternity test or how did she verify? I assume you were saying that the child was his.
[18:30] I'm not sure what made her reconsider when I did make that call several years later. I'm not sure what it was.
[18:38] You did tell her that the child was his. Is that right?
[18:42] Yes. And that I lied. Yes, I did. Got it. And I apologized and asked if she'd like to come. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. I'm sorry, what?
[18:53] No, you go ahead.
[18:54] No, I thought you'd just ask something. Yeah, she came first of all to visit us to meet my daughter, her grandchild, after these years had passed. And we had a pleasant little time in a park. And then she went back home and she told him whatever she told him. And then he came and we established visiting again. I'm not sure what it was that maybe she looked at our daughter and saw she really resembled her dad. I think she might have seen that. That's possibly it. I'm not sure.
[19:34] Never asked her why. What happened after that?
[19:38] Okay, so let me see. We're going back a ways. So we lived further away at that point, but we did visits. I would, you know, my daughter would take the, I'd put her on the train. You know, I brought her up, you know, there for visits. But then, you know, she got a little older and you can travel on the train. I'd put her on the train. Grandma would pick her up. Her dad would pick her up on the other end and she'd have, you know, a nice several days or a week in the summer. Grandma took her to the cottage for a week, you know, each summer. And it became a regular visiting. Not so often because we were several hours apart at that point. But family relationship between my daughter and her family on the father's side was reestablished. and they still keep in touch, not that much. She's more in touch with her grandma now, but yeah, so it went on since then in that way.
[20:46] Okay, and so what was the kind of continuity of relationship after the reestablishment of contact?
[20:54] The continuity, let me see. There were, I would say, occasional visits. Okay, yeah, occasional visits because, like I said, three hours apart. So visits to, usually it was to the grandparents' home, and then dad would come to the grandparents' home, and they would spend time there. And this went on from age 10 to throughout the teens, and she graduated high school, and they all came up for graduation. Grandma, grandpa, dad came for that. And then after that, I mean, my daughter at that point, she's working. She's going to school. She's not as inclined to travel. And dad, her dad, he came up for the graduation. He never came in our direction. It was always her going in that direction, possibly because there wouldn't have been anywhere for him to stay other than with us. And he might not have been comfortable with that. Yeah, so that's how it's progressed, and at this point,
[22:02] She said, I think she said something, we were speaking a couple of weeks ago, she and I on the porch, and I was asking her about her breakup with her boyfriend. And she was talking to me, opening up about, she's going through counseling, and she was opening up to me, and she said, tearfully, she said, I've never really had a dad. And I said, well, you do. And she said, oh, I heard. She just, this is how she feels. And that's how it's registered with her that she doesn't really have that father-daughter relationship. It's been very distant. So she said that and it really seemed to come hit her in her heart. So that's very significant to her. It's been bad for her.
[22:50] Sorry, do you disagree with her?
[22:52] No, I don't. I don't disagree with her. No. I thought you
[22:57] Said that the first time she said, I don't have a dad, that you said, well.
[23:00] You do. Yes. Well, I didn't say it stridently. I said it to check in with her. Well, you know that you do.
[23:11] Well, of course she knows that she technically does.
[23:13] She said, but I don't.
[23:14] Yeah, technically. Everybody has a father.
[23:16] No, I know. And she did see him. Yeah. No, it's not what she's feeling. And that's the reality.
[23:22] That's her reality. And it is the reality. So this is very much...
[23:28] I mean, how often, how many times a month or a year would she see her father on average?
[23:34] So actually, it would be during school vacation times when it would be most, in the summer, Christmas time, or generally. So it would be those school vacation times. And, well, no, she was homeschooled, but she started school when she was 11 in a small Christian school and then high school. So, yeah, she was going along with the school schedule. Yeah, that would be about it.
[24:02] Okay. So she didn't have a live-in dad. She didn't have a dad who could help her with her homework every night. She didn't have a dad that she could go to for advice, and she didn't see you and her father interacting in a positive way.
[24:14] That's right.
[24:15] On any kind of regular basis. So, yeah, she's stacking a lot, right? Yeah.
[24:18] Yes, she is. Okay. Yes.
[24:21] And what about the second dad?
[24:23] So my second daughter, yeah, I'm just going to tell it like it is. It's not good on my part. I had an affair with somebody I found attractive.
[24:34] Sorry, what did you mean, he was married?
[24:36] Yes, he was married. And you knew
[24:38] That when you had the affair?
[24:40] Yes, yes.
[24:41] Were you any more Christian at his aunt or no?
[24:44] No, no. Okay. So I had an affair with this man, and... and then became pregnant, and he wanted me to have an abortion.
[24:55] Sorry, what do you mean you became pregnant? I refused. Did you have unprotected sex?
[24:58] No, we... Yes, yes, unprotected sex.
[25:01] Okay, so you didn't become pregnant. You chose to become pregnant.
[25:04] Yes, I chose to become pregnant.
[25:07] And why did you choose to become pregnant with a married man?
[25:12] Well, I knew that there would be no chance of being with him as a couple. He was married and he was very committed to that marriage in a way. I mean, having a very half committed. No, I know. But he was a very traditional as in he would never leave his wife kind of thing.
[25:35] And I knew that.
[25:36] So I knew that by becoming pregnant, I was a side piece. Exactly. I'm not, I'm sort of, I wandered away here. What was your question? I'm sorry.
[25:47] Why did you get pregnant? Why did you choose to engage?
[25:49] Why did I get, well, okay, again, I think on some level I wanted to become pregnant. And.
[25:58] Well, that's not at some level. I mean, biological sex. If you have unprotected sex, you're like, did you get pregnant? That's not at some level.
[26:04] Right? Yes. But if you don't want to get pregnant, you use protection.
[26:09] Okay, but why did you want to become pregnant?
[26:13] I felt that, okay, one thing I love about you, Stef, is that someone could be honest with you, and I'm just going to sound like crap. But I thought, in my opinion, that I could be a good mother. I had been a good mother in many ways to my other daughter. and I wanted a baby, and there was just no relationship.
[26:38] Yes, but it's not about you. It's not about you.
[26:41] I know.
[26:42] It's about the kid. It's about what's best for the kid.
[26:45] I know. I know. And in the rear view, I'm looking. It's good for the children. No, it's not. And I owe. I owe. I owe these kids. I owe them. This was a bad decision.
[26:57] Did you have any contact with your father over this time period? Oh, God, no.
[27:01] Well, my father had passed at that point, but my father and my father and mother, my father was an alcoholic. They were immigrants from Europe, came here after the war, late 50s, on the firstborn. He was an alcoholic, very violent to my mother. He progressed over the years and got more and more. They divorced, you know, finally, after way too many years together. I was very relieved, and that was after I was grown and out. so it wasn't anything that affected me but that was, no, I really had nothing to do with my father
[27:37] Okay. Did you have any other male relatives who you ran things past? I mean, how were you making these decisions? No. No.
[27:45] No. No. I have a brother, a younger brother. Yeah.
[27:49] How old were you when you got pregnant with your second child?
[27:53] She came along 10 years later.
[27:56] Oh, so like 42, 43?
[27:58] Yes. That's exactly right. Yeah.
[28:01] Okay. All right. All right.
[28:04] And yeah. Yeah.
[28:06] So you got pregnant. He said he wanted you to have an abortion, right? An abortion.
[28:12] Yes. And I said no, but he pressed me. And then I didn't say yes. I just said, just leave me alone to take care of things. It was sort of an ambiguous statement. And then he didn't see me physically, you know, see me for the rest of the pregnancy. We spoke on the phone and he was under the impression I had had an abortion without me actually saying it. But I wasn't going to get an abortion.
[28:43] Okay. All right. So basically he thought you were getting an abortion.
[28:47] But you didn't. That's correct. Yes.
[28:51] Okay. Yes. And I assume things never really restarted with him in any real way? Oh, no.
[28:57] No, there was not a... No, we didn't. The idea was... I think, well, we spoke on the phone, and he may have been under the impression that it was a friendly ending of things. He didn't want to resume any kind of intimate relationship with me, and I didn't want, you know, we weren't going in that direction. But once he knew that I actually had my child, it was ice cold.
[29:25] But for a while, we spoke on a friendly basis on the phone.
[29:30] Okay. Okay, got it. Yeah. Okay. And did you date since then or after that?
[29:39] No, none. No, I haven't dated since. I haven't dated anybody since then. No.
[29:46] Okay, got it. Got it. And so you have a daughter who's in her early 30s and a daughter who's in her early 20s. Is that right?
[29:53] She's 20. My youngest is 20. okay
[29:56] Got it all right so how does your eldest does your eldest know that you told her father that she wasn't his.
[30:07] Daughter they don't know neither one of them know a thing about um about him nothing i've um told my
[30:14] Sorry about the polish guy.
[30:17] Oh no no oh no i thought you were asking about my youngest daughter's father um I'm sorry. Oh, no, I did tell my, I did eventually tell my daughter why her father wasn't a part of her life for several, for so many years. And I told her it was me that I had told him what I told him.
[30:38] And sorry, how many years was he out.
[30:41] Of the picture for? We reunited the two when she was 10. So it was a long time. It was two, let's say almost two. So it was eight years at nine. She was nine, nine, almost 10.
[30:52] Oh, gosh. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, that's.
[30:56] A long time.
[30:57] She wouldn't really remember him, right? He's just some guy who bungees in when she's nine or ten.
[31:02] Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think she did develop a nice relationship with her grandmother and grandfather and never. Yeah, it never really warmed up. Partly his personality. He's very, very awkward, shy, you know, just a kind of a quiet person. And she didn't gravitate to him on that level. But had her father, it doesn't matter.
[31:28] Sorry, when you say he's shy, do you mean her father?
[31:32] Yes. Well, it's, you know. Yes, I'm just thinking, you know, some, sorry.
[31:37] Well, we can talk about his personality and all of that, but isn't it sort of more important that he had seven or eight years?
[31:44] No, it's not important at all.
[31:46] No, I mean, like.
[31:47] No, no, it's not important at all.
[31:49] You're blaming his personality structure when you drove him away for seven or eight years.
[31:54] No, you're, no, you're right. You're right. That's not why I mentioned it. But I think I was just,
[31:58] I was just thinking.
[32:01] You know, of after all those years.
[32:04] Hello, hello.
[32:05] Oh, hi, Stef. Sorry, my phone died, but I found the charger and I've got it plugged in.
[32:10] Okay, good, good. Sorry about that. No, no problem. No problem at all. All right. So we were talking about how your oldest daughter knows that you lied about her paternity to her father. but your youngest daughter or your younger daughter does not know anything about her father, is that right?
[32:29] Nothing, no, she does not nor does my older know anything Oh, well true enough, true enough I guess she doesn't neither one of them has ever listened to your show I haven't introduced them to it but you know, this may have to come out Yes,
[32:46] It may It probably would be better to come from you rather than a podcast Yeah.
[32:51] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I will. Yeah. Okay.
[32:55] So how do you think I can best help?
[33:00] Perhaps by speaking with my 31-year-old daughter or with the both of us on a call together. I'm just thinking that or I guess
[33:13] Knowing what you know. Yeah, sorry. Just because it's like just talking is not magic, right? Sure. So what is it that you would like or what wisdom or information would you like, let's say, your eldest daughter to receive?
[33:29] Yes. Okay. Let me think this through for a few seconds. Okay. So, what she said to me regarding her latest two-year relationship that she just broke up with, and they were on track for marriage or so, he thought, and
[33:48] She may have thought.
[33:49] And so what she said to me when I said why, because I couldn't see why, why did she break up with him? He was so, so wanting to continue. She said that she didn't feel, she wasn't feeling it for him. She didn't feel it. I'm not sure, I'm not sure what word that she used. I think the idea would be passionate.
[34:16] Like chemistry?
[34:17] She didn't feel things for him. Chemistry, yes. But then I guess I'd have to talk to her a little more. Did you feel chemistry in the beginning, I would ask. But I didn't ask that. She said that. And I thought, well, this is the path that they took. So she lived with him. She's lived with three men.
[34:37] Sorry, what is your opinion about her living with men prior to getting married?
[34:44] Well, I'll just talk about this last one. So the first, okay, I'll talk about them all. The first one she dated for six years before they moved in. And I had an opinion about him already before she moved in. He had a lot of red flags. And then she moved in and discovered that, oh my goodness, this is not good living with him. All kinds of things came out that were very harsh and difficult for her to live with. Okay, fine. That's done. Then she moved in with someone else that she dated quite quickly on the rebound after him. And, oh, he wanted to marry her, too. Again, very sincere about this. And they would have. But she lived with him. And then she discovered things about him while living together that were not so great. And then she moved out. And then this one, she had bought her own house by this point. So it seemed practical, she said, to live together, share the expenses. Why should he pay rent on a place? He could move in, this and that. And I told her, don't live with him because, and I was wrong about this. I said that if you live with a man, I think I'd always told her that if you live with a man,
[35:57] Whom you want to be marriage-minded, there's no incentive for him to move forward towards a greater commitment in marriage because mission accomplished. He's living with you. It's great. Why rock the boat? Why not just live together? That's kind of the outlook I said that some men would tend to have, and it makes sense. You can't jump in so quickly before you go through steps to get to the point of making the commitment. Anyway, with this last relationship, what I told her afterwards, I said, I think that when you were living with him,
[36:34] It was a very small house.
[36:36] And she had started a very intense program at school. She's studying to be a registered nurse, and she was also working and so on. So there was a lot of pressure on her. It was a small house, not enough room to just have some peace to spread out and focus and no disapproval of him as a person or anything, but it's just a tiny space to people. And I also told her it's more than that, because if you were married and you'd gone through more of a growth in your relationship, that could be worked through. You can live in a small space with your committed spouse and you'll you'll get by, you'll figure it out. But there wasn't that prior commitment. And so it was unpleasant. And so I said, first of all, there's that. Number two, though, I said, is you didn't even have time to slowly get to know each other, to court, to develop, to have a bit of space and a little mystery about one another. You just jumped right in and moved in and you jumped steps one through five. Anyway, I said this is why you didn't have feelings for him.
[37:48] Sorry, is this the one that just broke up?
[37:51] Yes.
[37:51] Okay.
[37:52] Yeah. And also, I think the one thing that I said that I think did ring a bell for her, he's a very nice guy. And he's not a pushover. He's not. There's nothing wrong with him. He is a part of his character to be very friendly, kind, positive, upbeat kind of guy.
[38:12] Well, he's not great. He can't be great because he chose a woman who broke his heart.
[38:18] Yes, he did. And I, yes, he did. Yes. I don't know where that comes from for him.
[38:26] Well, I don't know either. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, it's not particularly wise. Does she want to have kids?
[38:32] Yeah, she does. Yes, and he wanted to have them with her. They were on the same page.
[38:37] So what's she doing breaking up with a guy in her 30s?
[38:42] I know, at 31. If she wants to have kids. That is such a bad decision. Or, you know, pick the right guy so you don't end up doing that. Or be the right woman or whatever.
[38:55] That's what I'm trying to figure out with her.
[38:58] Well, she's just missing some kind of spark or chemistry or something?
[39:04] Yes, I think that's basically what she said. The spark, the chemistry. And, okay, maybe so. But it can also be that the spark, the chemistry, it can't be there if there's just too much other stuff going on. And, yeah, so something in their
[39:22] Dynamic was wrong. I mean, honestly, that's a ridiculously immature view of relationships, if you don't mind me being frank.
[39:29] It is.
[39:30] I mean, the spark, you know.
[39:31] No, and I agree.
[39:33] Okay, can you just please let me talk a little, okay? You're calling to get my feedback, aren't you?
[39:38] Yes, I am. Thank you.
[39:39] So you can't keep talking the moment I start talking. I mean, you can, but I just don't want to have the conversation if that's all right. I agree. I mean, the sexual chemistry is six months. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. I've been married, you know, 20, 22 years, 23 years. And it's great and all of that. But, of course, it's not the same spark as it was when we first met. I mean, it's different. It gets replaced with something more consistent and mature, right? Right. So she what she got bored. She he's too nice a guy. She likes excitement. I mean, who knows, right? This is always a great mystery for men, you know, particularly, as you say, he's a really nice guy. And so maybe she doesn't really want a nice guy. You said the first couple of boyfriends were had had big red flags and problems. So, you know, maybe she's just kind of addicted to excitement, which is immature, in my opinion.
[40:36] Yes. Yes.
[40:37] Okay. So what information do you want her to get a hold of? I mean, what do you think I might be able to provide her?
[40:45] Well, what you just said, you zeroed right in on that, the immaturity and the unrealisticness of wanting that first rush to keep going. So she needs to hear that.
[41:03] Well, but I mean, that doesn't cure it. That doesn't cure it. The question is, where does it come from? Where does the immaturity come from? And, you know, I mean, both of your children's lives were fundamentally or foundationally grounded on falsehoods, at least their early experience, right? I mean, the falsehood that this is not your daughter and the falsehood is I'm getting an abortion.
[41:28] Yeah, right.
[41:29] Yeah. Right. So...
[41:32] You avoid conflict, I think,
[41:36] And this sounds critical. I'm not. I'm just trying to identify the patterns here. So you avoid conflict, like conflict with your Polish mother-in-law, conflict with the guy who you were having the affair with. You avoid a conflict through falsehood. So if there's going to be a conflict with your mother-in-law, you detach her from the family by saying, this is not your granddaughter. It's not your son's daughter. And with the married guy who wants you to get an abortion, you avoid that conflict by getting him to believe that you're having an abortion, right? And then you just don't date after that because then there's no conflict, right?
[42:12] That's right. Yes.
[42:14] So to be conflict avoidant is to eat away at the heart of a relationship. Because if you have differences of opinion with someone you love, and it's inevitable that you will, I will, everybody does. But if you're conflict avoidant, you're actually avoiding the person and you're saying, I don't trust you enough to disagree with you openly. So I'm just going to manipulate you from the shadows with falsehoods. And that eats away at the heart of the relationship. Because as soon as you start manipulating someone, you can't be close to them. It's like trying to fall in love with a puppet like you can't, right? And so maybe she is conflict avoidant with her boyfriends and that eats away at the relationship because maybe she inherited to some degree your habits, which I sympathize with, but your habit of lying or manipulating in order to avoid confrontation. And then because she loses connection because she's manipulating rather than being honest, the relationships kind of fall apart, if that makes sense.
[43:20] Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. She could inherit that. I mean, I guess she lived with me, and somehow this came through, but these were things I hadn't told her until she was an adult. Well, but children, I mean, you know what they're like.
[43:41] We have the whole world to deal with. All they do is scan their parents' personalities looking for strengths and weaknesses. That's all. They're just children like MRI x-rays, right? Yeah, brilliant. So she knows all of your flaws, just as my child knows all of my flaws, right? So your daughter, they know all of your flaws. And that's why it's usually good to be up front with your flaws so that they know that you know. And it's openly talked about. And it's, you know, things that you could work on that I can work on to improve. But, yeah, you don't have to tell kids anything. They understand everything.
[44:16] Yep. Yes, I think she is. I think she's conflict avoidance.
[44:21] Well, I think you're conflict avoidance.
[44:24] Well, I am for sure.
[44:25] Yeah. And that's, you know, when you grew up with an alcoholic father and parents who fought all the time. So you were never trained in how to have positive conflicts, right?
[44:34] No, just stay out of the way.
[44:36] So for instance, like I felt that you or I've experienced you over talking me a little bit. And I think I've been assertive about that, but I don't think I've been hostile. I'm not calling you names or anything like that. I'm just being assertive. And I think we've worked out something where I can get more of a word in edgewise. But that's an example of conflict that can be productive, right? I mean, I'm not mad at you. I'm just sort of telling you what I need for the conversation to work, if that makes sense.
[44:59] Yes, setting boundaries. Yeah. Yeah.
[45:02] So what do you think your daughter has seen in terms of your conflict avoidance? I mean, I assume it showed up to some degree with your children as well.
[45:11] Oh, okay. Conflict avoidance.
[45:18] Well, when we went to the homeschool group, my older daughter, we were part of a really great co-op homeschool group. Fantastic. It was very Christian-based. People there were very Christian. It met in a church, and the families were all predominantly Christian people. I was naively, I think, open about the fact that I was a single mom. This was when I had my just one daughter, single mom, father's visits, but we weren't married. And that really got us shunned to a degree by some. And my daughter, she was a very, very well-liked kid by other kids. She was pleasant. She was fun. She was well-behaved, but normal, just everything about her. And then when that fact came out, parents who were very happy to have her play with their kids and to set up play dates and to this and that, oh, no, she suddenly, and through me, suddenly not a desirable friend for their children. It was subtle. It was more something that I saw, and she just saw that it became more difficult to set up dates with some of these kids. Oh, why, Mom? Oh, I don't know. Maybe they're busy. Anyway, I started to, I took that as a lesson.
[46:48] Well, hang on. So that's an example. Hang on. I began to lie. So that's an example of lying to avoid conflict.
[46:54] Yes, I started, well, no, I told the truth and then the conflict, and then after that, from then on, it was like, oh, no, my husband died. Hang on, hang on.
[47:02] Okay. But you didn't tell the truth to your daughter.
[47:04] No, I did not. You're right. I didn't tell her because I thought it would hurt. I didn't want to tell her, hey, they don't, well, you know what, it might have been better, but I didn't tell her. You're right, because I thought,
[47:17] Okay, the parents don't want me to.
[47:19] Play with you.
[47:20] But, but. Well, no, her parents don't want them to play with the daughter of a single mother. A child of me. It's not.
[47:28] Yes.
[47:28] Yeah, it's not.
[47:29] Not her.
[47:30] Yeah, not her, right? You're right. And whereas if you say.
[47:32] No, she was very welcome.
[47:34] Okay. But if you say, and look, I don't know when the right time was to tell her, so I'm not saying this is some magic wand, like tell the truth to the kids about everything all the time. I get that there's stuff you have to shield them from. But if you say maybe they're busy. Yeah, if you say maybe they're busy, then it still hurts, right? Because then the kid feels, well, I used to be a high priority, now I'm not. And it's confusing, right?
[47:58] Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right. So she still, she didn't know why, but facts were facts. Yeah, we weren't getting together so much
[48:07] With the other kids.
[48:08] You're right.
[48:10] Okay.
[48:11] Yeah, so that's an example of me avoiding conflict. After that, I started, well, I didn't tell her, that's number one. And number two, after that, whenever I met people, it was not unwed mother, it was, you know, divorced or widow or something, something that was more respectable.
[48:28] Which is more lying.
[48:30] Right? Yes, exactly. Exactly.
[48:33] And I'm not criticizing, I'm just, it's a habit, right? So you have on your table of options, like things you can do in life, you have lying.
[48:46] Yeah.
[48:46] Right now, I've talked about this before with people, so I'll just mention it here briefly. And again, this is just an identification of patterns. I'm not casting any moral judgment here. I'm just looking at the patterns, right? So you have something called lying. And if you were low on money, you wouldn't have an option called, I'm going to go rob a gas station or a convenience store, right?
[49:06] No.
[49:06] Like you just wouldn't do that. But you have, and I assume this comes out of your childhood and the fact that you couldn't negotiate with your parents really at all. But you have this thing called, well, I'll just lie. I will just bear false witness, right? Which is why it's one of the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not bear false witness, right? So you have this thing, which is, okay, I can just lie. And again, I say this with great sympathy. It comes out of a childhood where you couldn't negotiate with anyone because it was too chaotic and aggressive and drunken and all of that, right? So there was no negotiation. So you just had to lie. And also, if you grew up with really dysfunctional parents, you know, most of us who did, we generally have to end up lying quite a bit because, you know, people will say, how was your weekend? And we just have to lie and make things out.
[49:51] That's so true.
[49:52] Yeah. You know, hey, what did you do last night? Well, I can't tell you the truth, which is I picked my dad out of the gutter because he was drunk, right? And my mother screamed at him, you know, hit him with a plate or something. You just have to lie. Oh, not quite.
[50:04] But that kind of thing, yeah.
[50:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever the details are, you just can't tell the truth. And, you know, I couldn't say why my clothes were torn. I couldn't say why I was ungroomed. I couldn't say these things. So, yeah, you just become good at lying. So, yeah, so you have your repertoire. Well, I could just lie. And it's not a particular conscience thing. You're not like, oh, my God, I really shouldn't lie, but it's important. You just, I think it's just a, it's just another tool on the table. You know, like if you're a doctor, a surgeon, scalpel, you know, number three scalpel, right? Suction, right? It's just a tool. And I think for you, just lying your ass off is just something that's on the table that you can do. And again, I say this with sympathy, but it might be a habit that you want to review.
[50:56] Yes. And when I lie about something so major as keeping my daughter apart from her father for 10 years,
[51:06] That's a guilty. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, that is.
[51:10] The other, you know, I can lie quite easily about minor things, but that one.
[51:14] Well, you've also withheld from your 20-year-old daughter all knowledge of her paternity.
[51:20] Absolutely. I'm not sure how to bring that up with her.
[51:22] Well, I don't know either because it's kind of late in the game, but she needs to know these things.
[51:28] Yes. Yeah.
[51:29] I assume.
[51:30] Yeah.
[51:31] When was the last time you were in contact with her father? Oh.
[51:35] Oh. Wow. Let's see. She's 20, 18 years ago.
[51:39] So he doesn't even know she exists? No, no.
[51:42] He knows. He knows. I did tell him, yes, that I have the baby. And so last spoke to him, I think, when she was two.
[51:51] And he obviously didn't want to have anything to do with parenting or visiting or anything.
[51:55] Wanted nothing, nothing to do. No, nothing to do with it. And I understand that. He didn't ask for, he was clear about not wanting a child. I get it.
[52:08] Right. Okay. All right. So, yeah, I mean, there's a certain amount of lying by omission there. I mean, I'm sure she's had questions. What do you say?
[52:17] Well, that he died.
[52:20] Oh, no, you didn't.
[52:21] That's why it's going to be a big one to undo.
[52:23] Oh, my God. You told your daughter her dad was dead?
[52:29] Yeah. Yes, I did. And, yeah.
[52:34] When did you tell him that?
[52:35] Did you cut off any inquiries? When? Oh, well, it's been years. It's been years. Let's say 10 years ago, something like that.
[52:47] I mean, is he dead?
[52:49] No, he is. Not that I know of. I haven't kept track of him, but I would assume not.
[52:54] Okay. Do you have a computer? Can you look him up?
[52:59] I guess I can, and I knew where he worked, and he's retired.
[53:04] Do me a favor, just look him up.
[53:07] Oh, I don't have a computer here. Oh, I thought you meant,
[53:10] Yeah, in general, yeah. Yeah, I mean, was he older than you?
[53:15] Yeah, he was a bit older than me, a few years.
[53:18] Not extreme, but a few years. Maybe in his mid-60s or something, right? So, yeah.
[53:23] Something around that, I think,
[53:24] Yeah, around that.
[53:25] Maybe late, late 60s.
[53:27] I mean, could have died. Maybe, you're right.
[53:30] I mean, he could have.
[53:31] He could have.
[53:32] He was a pretty healthy person, but he could have.
[53:36] People get hit by buses. I mean, anyone can. Yeah, okay. All right. So, yeah, you've got a lot of secrets, young lady.
[53:45] Yeah. You've got a
[53:46] Lot of burdens.
[53:48] Yes, but, yeah, and this reverberates down the generations, and now my daughter, and she's 31, and this is a pivotal time. I don't, yeah, I'm not sure what's going on in her.
[54:04] Well, but the odds of her having children are quite low at this point.
[54:08] Well, I guess at 31 she can have kids, but the thing is building a relationship, finding that relationship.
[54:17] Well, no, I mean, sorry. Sorry, I apologize. I was completely unclear. That was my bad. Yeah, she can have kids with anyone. She can go have sex with a hobo and she can have kids. But a quality man, a man who's going to stick around and who's going to be a good father. Is going to look at her and say...
[54:32] That takes several years.
[54:34] Well, it takes a couple of years, maybe. But a quality man, when did she break up with her boyfriend?
[54:40] Well, I think they had the final where she was very clear with him about two weeks ago.
[54:47] Okay. And so he's going to look at her and say, so you've had four major relationships, one of which was six years before you even moved in together. And so I assume that she's basically been dating most, if not all, of her adult life, right? Yeah.
[55:05] She started dating her major relationship at 20, and then she had a high school boyfriend before that.
[55:12] So you're disagreeing with me, right? Okay.
[55:15] No, no, no. Maybe I'm unclear. Sorry. What did you mean? She's been dating her adult life. You're right.
[55:21] Most of her adult life, she's been in a relationship.
[55:24] Yes, that's exactly right. Yes.
[55:26] So she goes from one man to another.
[55:29] That's exactly right. And that's generally called codependent,
[55:34] Which means he doesn't really know how to exist as a single person. Because for a man, there's, you know, one of the biggest red flags is this one-two punch, this one-two combo of never single chooses the wrong guys.
[55:51] Okay. That's her.
[55:53] Yeah. So that is a huge red flag for men. A quality man, right? High value men. Because this issue of never single means jumping from man to man, doesn't know how to be alone, doesn't, you know, is there's a certain kind of desperation to that? No, no offense. And then choosing the wrong guys means that you're so desperate to be in a relationship that you'll just kind of date anyone who'll have you or anyone you're just kind of attracted to. And it also shows a kind of impulsivity, right, which is, oh, you know, I didn't I didn't vet him for red flags because he was sexy or hot or whatever. Right.
[56:32] Yeah.
[56:33] So that's part of the immacurity.
[56:36] She said what you said just to me recently in this talk that we had. She said that she's never been alone. She said exactly what you said, that she's always gone to the next and that she needs to figure out why. She said that she was crying. It was a very emotional conversation. And then she said, I never had a dad. I've never, you know, I don't know anything about
[57:01] How a relationship.
[57:03] Should be. Something, something along that line. And I agreed with her and I told her I was sorry that, you know, this is that I didn't give her that. And she already knew about me separating them for those years and that this was my doing. But she said exactly what you said. She's aware of it. Now, the next step to not do this is the big thing. You know, she's trying to figure this out.
[57:29] Why?
[57:30] And how to be alone. I mean, she is now. She says she's not interested. She's not going to date for a while till she figures this out. Maybe this is where I wonder whether a conversation with you might help her figure this out.
[57:42] Well, maybe. But, I mean, if she doesn't have much experience with what I do, there's going to be a lot of education involved.
[57:49] I mean, therapy would probably be a good...
[57:51] Oh, she's been in therapy. She's currently in therapy. She has been. Yeah, she's familiar with some form of therapy.
[58:01] Okay. Well, that's not a bad place. That's not a bad place to start. Okay, so in general, girls who grow up without fathers tend to seek out men almost compulsively because if she grows up without a father, it means that society, her biology programs her on the basis that society is dangerous and unstable. because why would she have no father? Where's her father? Well, hunting, accident, war, plagues, famines, you know, like rival gangs, stealing all the men. Like there's, it happens at a sort of very, almost like a cellular level that girls who grew up without fathers feel in a state of chaos and danger and therefore they are sort of driven to seek out male attachment and protection, not on the basis of quality and virtue, but on the basis to some degree of size or strength or whatever it is. So they want to cling to men because they experience the world as a dangerous place, which is why they grew up without a father, if that makes sense.
[59:15] Yes, it does. Yeah.
[59:17] And then if her relationships were destabilized because you being a single mom, there's a certain amount of chaos and danger or instability in that. Right. So it's tough to pair bond. What you do is, you know, it's kind of like if the ship goes down, you'll just hang on to any piece of wood that floats and you can't let go of them because then you get to drown. Right. Particularly if you can climb on top and get out of the way of the sharks or something like that. And to extend the metaphor a little bit. Right. So she's in a stormy sea, there are sharks around, she's just got to get onto some piece of wood and stay there, right?
[59:53] And I think that's why she has
[59:57] Dated kind of continuously. Because, I mean, does she have any issues with nervousness or anxiety or anything like that? Or is that largely kind of...
[1:00:07] Yes. Yes, she does have anxiety. Yeah, she used to be, she used to have something which I think no longer affects her, which is a bit of the OCD, needing to check whether she locked the door, whether she turned off the stove. That's a type of anxiety, right?
[1:00:29] Right. I know that.
[1:00:30] Was a symptom that she experienced, let's say, five, ten, six, ten years ago.
[1:00:36] Okay. Got it.
[1:00:37] And she may have overcome that just through. whatever means, because she doesn't seem to have that. But yeah, anxiety, yes, she worries. She worries too much about things. She also has another side to her, which is very confident, straightforward. And, you know, she's got a lot of strength as well, but that anxiety is there. Yeah.
[1:00:59] Yeah. But the strength probably shows up in her education and professional environments, but less so in her personal relationships.
[1:01:06] Yes, she's very good professionally. Her goal is to be an ER nurse and nothing phases her, but that's professional.
[1:01:14] And if she has kids, does she want to stay home with them?
[1:01:19] Well, that is something that she has always said, but I wonder if she's 100% on that. In the early years, yes, but I wonder about that.
[1:01:34] Yeah, because, I mean, a quality man is going to look at a woman, and if she's, like, working like crazy, you know, I know that there's a lot of time on and off, like long shifts and so on, he's going to be like, well, who's going to take care of my babies? Who's going to take care of my kids if she's this, you know, balls-for-the-ball professional woman, so to speak, this kind of boss babe, which is fine, but it's just not particularly appealing to men who want, you know, a wife. No, she has the example.
[1:02:03] She had the example, I've always said, you know, stay home with your kids when they're little. And with my girls, when I had my youngest daughter, I was a transit bus driver. And I gave that up to stay at home with her for a few years. And then I went to little part-time this and that.
[1:02:23] Well, sorry, but the issue is that she's taking the education to do this. That's the problem, right? Yes.
[1:02:30] She's investing in it. You're right.
[1:02:31] Yeah, she's investing in that, which means how long until she's able to work in the field.
[1:02:38] Has another year, another full year from September on and then she'll be able to do her registration.
[1:02:44] Right, okay. Yeah, so then she's going to try and build a relationship with a busy man when she's very busy and I mean it just there's no particular answer to this, right? I'm just, it's when did she decide to do the ER nurse stuff?
[1:03:02] She decided to get into that two years ago. No, last year, last year. She got into it. So she's doing the, I'm not, what is it, RPN, it's a two-year. And there's a hospital locally that will take on ER, RPN. So it's a two-year program. So she started, she finished her first year. She was a physio assistant for five years prior to that. That's not physiotherapist, it's an assistant. She worked in that field, but wanted to move on.
[1:03:32] Right, okay.
[1:03:33] Anyway.
[1:03:34] Yeah, so it's going to be tricky to build a relationship. If she's going to be working that hard to establish a difficult and challenging career. But I mean, it is what it is, right? The decisions that she's made. Okay. All right. Yeah. And the men that she's dated, you said that the first two had red flags. She's had four major ones. You said the last one was a nice guy as a whole. Yeah. With the other three, did they generally have red flags or?
[1:04:01] Yes. Well, her first, her big six-year one, on the surface, and even when you knew him to an extent, he seemed very together, professionally, looked good, spoke well, just, you know, he got along. But his red flags, and I told her there are things that you have to look for that aren't even the person themselves. His father, a lawyer, divorced three times on his fourth wife, his mother on her third husband, a sibling who is psychotic and addicted to some kind of drugs, another sister with some sort of mental issues. And I said, you know, he may seem really together and have all kinds of great qualities, but look at the family. That's the red flags that I saw. How can you turn out okay with that? So those were red flags. And his personality that came out was very perfectionistic, very, you know, very orderly and, you know, everything just perfect, fantastic home decorator house and all that. But don't move something of his.
[1:05:04] Well, I'm sorry, I don't want to get into too many details about him because he's not on the call and it's been many years. No, but that's what he was. If you're going to judge dates, if you're going to judge potential dates or partners by their family, then you're going to be under the spotlight too, right?
[1:05:20] I know. Yes, you're right. I just realized that. Yeah, a single mother lies about things. Yeah, I'm not great credentials here either.
[1:05:32] And again, we can get past the credentials, but you're going to have to go through a redemption arc, right, for the sake of your daughters, right? Because you need to be you need to be someone that a quality boyfriend is going to look at and say, I can't wait to have her be the grandmother to my children. Oh, oh, I think I could that place. Yeah.
[1:05:54] Yeah. I think I have, to a large degree, gotten in that direction. I do. What you've said, though, it's absolutely right. The lying, the evasiveness.
[1:06:06] Yeah, the conflict avoidance and having just lying on your table of, on your bag, in your bag of tricks. Right. And so.
[1:06:14] Cowardice.
[1:06:15] Well, I wouldn't judge it that way. Right. Because, again, given your history and all of that, because if you just label it cowardice, you can't really work with it. That's just a form of self-attack. So have a little bit more gentleness and kindness with yourself to explore these issues and figure that out. But it's not so much about fixing your daughter. It's about having a redemption arc for some of your own negative choices so that a man is going to look at your daughter, see how great she is, and a quality man will look at you very clearly and say, OK, hang on. Where's the dad? Where are the two kids by two different men? Falsehood involved in both. That's not going to be great for my kids, right? Because remember, a quality man doesn't date your daughter. He dates your daughter's family. Because a quality man is looking at who's going to be around to help raise his kids, right?
[1:07:10] Yes.
[1:07:11] So the redemption art, I mean, in general, I'm a big fan of telling the truth, right?
[1:07:17] Okay. Yeah, that's my youngest daughter.
[1:07:20] And you just, you have to, yeah. Hasn't had that. Well, but haven't you also told your oldest daughter that your youngest daughter's father is dead?
[1:07:27] Yes, you're right. They both, they're both under that impression. Yes.
[1:07:31] Now that's, you know.
[1:07:32] I think my older daughter's figured it out, though.
[1:07:34] Well, the fact that she hasn't talked to you about it doesn't speak well to your relationship, right? OK, because if she's realized that you're lying about something important, shouldn't she sit you down and say, Mom, like, what's the story with? I think she.
[1:07:48] Yeah, you're right. She may be a little disgusted by it or something along that line.
[1:07:53] She's just the avoidance stuff. It's this avoidance stuff like you've got to have direct, honest conversations. Now, listen, just so you're aware, I don't know whether you should tell your youngest daughter the truth. I don't know whether you should tell the oldest truth your oldest daughter the truth about I don't know I don't know because this is like a bit jaw dropping for me so I don't know it is it's kind of sorted it's sorted yeah I don't tell people what to do I'm sure you're aware of that and you shouldn't you know if I were ever tempted to you shouldn't listen to me tell you anything to do right but, you need to sort of weigh this in your mind and say what is the falsehood costing me And and do I want to reward myself by taking the easy path of just lying? Yeah. And again, I wonder if it.
[1:08:42] Would be so hurtful to her, to the youngest. The whole story, a married man.
[1:08:50] Well, see, but this is a sorry. God love you. This is a hugely female perspective. And I love I love women. I live with two lovely females. But this is I got to I got to give you the male perspective, which may be right.
[1:09:04] OK, I want to hear it.
[1:09:05] The male perspective is, who cares who it hurts? It's truth. It's not about feelings. It's about facts.
[1:09:13] Okay. I thought it might be damaging to her.
[1:09:16] Well.
[1:09:16] To know this.
[1:09:17] What is damaging to her is not that her father is alive. What is damaging or upsetting to her? Not the truth, but the 20 years of lying. So this is what a lot of women and some men do, is they say, oh, well, it will hurt the other person. But the fact is, it'll hurt your credibility as a mother. It's your pain that you're most concerned about, I think, deep down.
[1:09:45] Okay. Yeah. Okay.
[1:09:48] I mean, it's no fun to tell the truth after 20 years of lying.
[1:09:50] Right? No, you're right. Both. Yeah, that credibility thing. You're absolutely right. Yeah.
[1:09:56] Right. And also, I mean, it's a trust thing, too. because if you've lied again, I know you didn't lie when she was born. So I say 20 years. I know it's not exactly 20 years or whatever. I said 10 years. Close enough. Yeah. So 10 years, she's trusted you and you've lied to her. And you didn't say, I'll tell you when you get older. You didn't say, I don't want to discuss it. I mean, you really did. You know, you, you, you killed her father in her mind, and you removed from her.
[1:10:25] You're talking about my youngest?
[1:10:26] Yeah. Yeah. You removed from her the choice to get in touch with him.
[1:10:31] Yes.
[1:10:32] I mean, that's a big theft, right?
[1:10:34] Yes. I think he might be somewhat hostile to being contacted. That's a concern as well. But I'm not brushing off what you're saying.
[1:10:45] Well, yeah, I don't know. And I don't know if he should or shouldn't be contacted. I mean, he may still be married to the same woman. Oh, absolutely he is.
[1:10:53] If they're both living. Right.
[1:10:55] Okay. So, again, I don't know. I don't know. what, as you say, it's kind of sorted, right? She did take a bit of an easy way out. And, you know, we could sort of make some case for that when she was younger. But now that she's two years into adulthood, I don't know. Again, I don't know whether you should tell her the truth or not. But it is not the truth that hurts. It is the recognition of the lying that hurts.
[1:11:26] Yeah.
[1:11:27] And the recognition of the lying is going to hurt you, not her, because she's the innocent victim in this, right?
[1:11:33] You're right. She may. She may be hurt by the lie, but I'm, yeah, yeah, okay.
[1:11:41] But, yeah, so I would, in your decision to do it, I don't know. I mean, if you think that your eldest daughter knows, maybe talk it over with her and get her an opinion.
[1:11:52] I think that might be what I'll do at some point. I might open up to her when it, you know, talk to her first. Yeah.
[1:12:01] Right, right. And I think that the more truth that you can tell and the more quickly you remove from your bag of options just lying, I think the quicker your redemption arc will be and the more support. Like, I can promise you this, my friend, that when you start to become more direct and honest, the quality of your daughter's boyfriends will improve. It's weird. It's magic. It's alchemy. But it works. Huh.
[1:12:32] Dad, I'm going to have to sit with that thought. That's, I believe you.
[1:12:39] Well, have your daughters, has your eldest daughter's boyfriends, have they had any trouble with being honest and direct? Let me see. Or does your daughter have difficulty being honest and direct? She might. She might.
[1:12:54] Yeah, it's more her.
[1:12:56] I'm just thinking about stuff. The men, yeah, so the men will very quickly, I mean, you're a very intelligent woman, your daughter's very intelligent, I'm sure the guys are smart too, although this is more of an instinct thing than an intelligence thing, but the men, what they do is they scan the whole family environment, they scan the whole family system, and they understand it very quickly. We think we hide all these things from the world, we don't really.
[1:13:23] It's amazing. It's rather amazing what you're telling me.
[1:13:26] Yeah, well, they'll scan the whole family system and they will get your personality, they'll get your daughter's personality, they'll get your youngest daughter's personality, and they will understand that you are avoidant and that you are comfortable with lying. Now, if they are direct and honest and, you know, whatever, really virtuous and, you know, like this, we're all striving to be right. Then they will say, well, that's a shame, but I don't really want to get involved in a family structure that goes against my values of directness and honesty or whatever. Right. So the boys that do date your daughter date it knowing that. That, you know, falsehood and manipulation are a significant component in the family structure, which means they're comfortable with it, which means they know how to work with it, which means they've experienced it themselves and they haven't, they're not aiming for anything more or higher.
[1:14:19] Yeah, that's her first boyfriend.
[1:14:21] Yeah. So if you are sort of direct and honest and, you know, like you stop with the lying and you tell the truth and you make that commitment going forward and all of that. And again, I say, I know this sounds like a big moral judgment. I'm just talking about the mechanics, right? Because again, I have sympathy for the way that you were tumbled up. You weren't even raised, just kind of tumbled up, right? But if you are sort of honest and direct and there's no more family secrets and you just talk about the good and bad choices that you've made, then your daughters will start to become more honest and direct, which means that they will start to attract more honest and direct men. But as long as you're avoidant, manipulative, indirect and lie to some degree, I'm not calling you some big stinky liar, but there's some significant stuff here, right? Then that's going to spread to your daughters. Yeah, that's going to spread to your daughters and that's going to absolutely condition the kind of men that they can attract. And it all happens at an unconscious level. So the best thing you can do for your daughter is have a redemption arc yourself. that will change the quality of the men who are interested in them almost infinitely for the better.
[1:15:25] Wow. And, and, and also change how she, my older daughter deals and deals with relationships. Yeah. Cause I'm, I'm thinking each of these three major relationships was convinced they were going to marry her. They wanted to, and she would say, Oh yeah. And I thought, okay, well this is the one. Wow. You know, and, and then, Boom, she drops a bomb on them. And she tells me, you know, I knew for a while he was, I don't know, she kind of lies to herself,
[1:16:00] Lies to them. Right. And you see where this habit may come from, right?
[1:16:05] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why I'm bringing it up, because it seems to follow that pattern. Okay.
[1:16:11] Yeah. Right. Okay. So I would say work with that for a bit. And again, I don't know what you should or shouldn't say. I don't know what truths you should or shouldn't reveal. but I think you need to really dredge this stuff up and turn it over in your mind and figure out what is a good path forward. In general, I'm a big one for, you know, tell the truth or the skies fall.
[1:16:33] Tell the truth and shame the devil. That's my particular perspective but again, I don't have any secrets like this so I sympathize with all of that but the more direct and honest you can be, the more direct and honest your daughters will be and then the more direct and honest their boyfriends will be and that will be much to the benefit of everyone, I think.
[1:16:51] I'm going to try that. I have to digest this, but I've got, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to try this.
[1:17:00] Okay, and if there's anything else that I can do, I'm obviously happy to chat with whoever, but I think you guys probably need to have some conversations beforehand, and I hope you'll keep in touch and let me know how things go.
[1:17:11] And I would love to. I would love to keep in touch, and I will talk to, maybe I'll sit with my older daughter as well as these conversations and have her listen to a couple of your podcasts. So pick a couple of them and say, you know, so she can hear how you work and so on. And would she be comfortable speaking with you? And if so, maybe she can contact you.
[1:17:35] Beautiful. Okay. I hope I don't run into her in the ER by accident. All right. Well, thank you, Bill. I appreciate that.
[1:17:40] No, you don't want to.
[1:17:41] No, I don't. All right. Take care. Thanks for the call.
[1:17:43] All right. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.
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