0:02 - Breaking Free from the Left
3:17 - The Allure of Identity Politics
4:19 - Journey to Political Awareness
6:40 - The Shift in Perspective
8:31 - The Role of Academia
11:19 - Experiencing Liberal Indoctrination
13:46 - Navigating Conservative Views
15:47 - Facing Backlash for Beliefs
19:54 - The Threat of Ostracism
23:58 - Conversations with Friends
27:18 - The Model Minority Experience
30:33 - Supportive Family Dynamics
32:20 - Emotions in Political Debates
36:42 - The Road to Change
41:17 - Disconnect Between Reality and Ideology
44:31 - Exhaustion from Outrage Culture
52:41 - The Addiction to Outrage
56:08 - Finding Common Ground
1:00:46 - A Call for Open Dialogue
In this episode, I engage in a deep conversation with a caller reflecting on her journey of political transformation from liberalism to a more skeptical, conservative viewpoint. She shares her past as a fervent supporter of progressive ideologies, often influenced by popular social justice narratives prevalent in online communities such as Tumblr. We explore her experiences grappling with concepts like privilege, activism for marginalized groups, and how these views shaped her identity, especially as someone who identifies as biracial.
The discussion delves into the psychological aspects of groupthink and the fear of dissenting opinions within tightly-knit social circles. The caller recounts how her commitment to progressive ideals was often driven by feelings of identity and belonging, illuminating the tribal nature of political affiliations. She candidly admits the emotional turmoil that accompanied her liberal beliefs and reflects on how it colored her interactions with others, particularly when faced with contrasting viewpoints.
As we progress, she recounts her experiences in college, where exposure to a predominately liberal academic environment prompted a critical reassessment of her beliefs. She highlights instances of indoctrination, particularly during orientation weeks that emphasized concepts such as microaggressions and white privilege. These moments catalyzed her desire for a more balanced understanding of political discourse, revealing the biases in her education that contradicted her growing skepticism.
Additionally, we examine the dichotomy within leftist ideologies, particularly regarding the treatment of men in feminist dialogues and the challenge of engaging in discourse that allows for dissenting opinions. The caller articulates her discomfort with the notion that men should be silenced or sidelined in discussions about women's issues, integrating her personal experiences with the broader implications of such narratives.
The conversation takes a pivotal turn as we discuss specific events that acted as a wake-up call for her—a deeply impactful moment involving coverage of Black Lives Matter protests that challenged her view of media narratives. It was through these experiences that she recognized a disconnect between lived experiences and the portrayal of political movements in media, prompting her to seek alternative sources of information.
Throughout the episode, I encourage her to further elaborate on her changing perspective and the reactions she faces from her former friends who have not shared her intellectual journey. The dialogue ultimately leads us to consider the fundamental human desire for connection, understanding, and respectful discourse, urging listeners to embrace a more rounded approach to political discussions that recognizes common goals and promotes genuine understanding.
In closing, I leave listeners with an invitation to reflect on the importance of exploring multiple viewpoints and engaging in substantive conversations devoid of inflammatory rhetoric. Our paths towards understanding can be complex, but sharing diverse experiences contributes to a healthier dialogue in our polarized society.
[0:00] Well, hi, everybody. It's Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain. I'm here with you.
[0:03] And I guess you have a tale to tell about breaking out of the old Democratic Party these days.
[0:09] I do. And it's been, you know, such a long journey for me. As you know, I used to be very, very liberal. In fact, I was a very Tumblr liberal, I guess you could say.
[0:22] I'm not sure what that, I don't really spend much time on Tumblr. What does that mean?
[0:27] Basically it's people who think you know black lives matter women are oppressed in america there's a gender pay gap going on whites are very privileged in america and as a frequent tumble user i ate up a lot of that type of rhetoric
[0:42] Well it's pretty compelling right i mean it's it explains a lot of things and it allows people to feel aggrieved and angry and it allows them to take their frustrations out on institutions rather than anyone who might be more immediate in their social or familial circle. So it's, it really is kind of like a brain crack, you know, like it's really addictive and it seems pretty compelling.
[1:05] Oh, it really is. And especially being someone who's biracial, it really appealed to me a lot because I felt that if as a woman I'm feeling oppressed in this country, you know, I, that should be something I should be fighting for. You know, what is wrong with fighting for other women who feel that they're being oppressed in this country?
[1:25] Yeah, no. And what is your racial lineage?
[1:29] I'm actually half Asian and half Hawaiian.
[1:31] Okay, got it, got it. And just out of curiosity, I mean, some of the stuff that I've read and talked about on Twitter is that some people who grow up biracial, or I guess triracial, or more, have some challenges feeling, I guess, neither fish nor fowl, like where they fit in in the tribes or in the groups. Did that occur for you much, or did it mostly bypass you?
[1:54] It bypassed me a lot, but it was definitely hard when I went to Japan because that's where my mom is from. And a lot of people looked at me as somebody who was completely Americanized. So they often looked at me like I was somebody who just did not grow up with any Japanese culture whatsoever. So everything I did, whether it's learning how to pick up chopsticks, knowing about the cultural food, the language, a lot of it just went over the heads of a lot of the teachers. And they're often very surprised how much I knew how to write in Japanese, just pick up chopsticks. All of it was a big shock to them.
[2:32] Yeah, I remember, I mean, this is just a real flyby on what you've lived through, but I do remember a friend of mine, a Japanese woman, taking me to a totally authentic Japanese restaurant where they they didn't really even really speak any english and meet meeting her father and, they sort of in broken English asked me what I would like to eat and I'm like tempura and everybody laughed at me and I gotta tell you you know sometimes when people laugh it's like ha ha ha and sometimes it's like ha ha ha you know like it's not it's not quite as as inclusive a kind of laughter and I remember thinking like wow they're really kind of fierce about their culture and not always egalitarian for people who were learning it I guess yeah.
[3:18] I definitely can definitely see a lot of that and just as a biracial person it almost made sense going back to the stuff on tumblr which is feeling like there's a sense of identity you know being part of like being very liberal being sort of this like you know social justice warrior as they call it and it felt as though that this was some sort of place that i needed to be in regardless of whether or not the facts supported their arguments or not
[3:43] Well and it gives you a real mission right it gives you a shape to your day you know you log on you you fight the battle you you find the enemy you expose the enemy you you gang up and i mean it really gives you a a tribe and it gives you a real sense of of purpose and and doing goodiness in the world if that makes sense it.
[4:05] Really does and what really surprised me looking back on it was that i was more liberal compared to my own parents so i was having more extreme views compared to my own parents which looking back on it was just you know, just a big shock to me.
[4:19] And it really showed me just how far to the left I was possibly going to go if I haven't researched anything for myself.
[4:27] Now, one thing I'm always curious about, and there's a lot that I kind of want to dig into here, but one thing I'm kind of curious about up front is what I've seen from people who get heavily into the left. Now, I don't mean the left, like, let's take care of the environment, let's be sensitive to minorities and stuff. You know, It's just pretty easy to get behind, of course, right? But the sort of more hardcore left, I'm not sure how far on the Overton window you shifted, but it's the relationship that particularly women, but sometimes men have with their own bodies when they get more into leftism. It almost becomes, to me at least what I've seen, sort of the self-flagellation, this like shave the head, this like make yourself less pleasant looking, less quote normal looking. Was there anything that happened to you or that you saw in people around you where the body almost seems to take the punishment for the social sins of the multiverse or something?
[5:23] I mean, I didn't quite shave my head. I wasn't quite going that far, but I definitely was a typical liberal where if I heard a dissenting opinion, I would almost shout them down, especially if they were men. So I would often, you know, shout out their arguments, you know, calling them like all sorts of names without really stopping to think about what it was that they were actually talking to me about.
[5:45] Now, when you say white men, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I'm going to say that white men in particular were.
[5:52] Yes, white men.
[5:53] White men yeah yeah because i mean we are because we have all this power you see we have all so nobody can say boo to us nobody can criticize us because we just have all this magnificent, julius caesar striding the world like a colossus magnificent patriarchal white racial power and so we just you know we just escape criticism all the time anyway i could go on like that for a while but in the interest of time so when did this first because you know there's a time when we're kids where we're not political, right? We just play with other kids. We just do our thing and we have fun. And at some point, and I think it's kind of earlier and earlier these days, but at some point, like the fangs kind of get into us, like the claws kind of get into us. When did that start to happen for you?
[6:41] I think high school. And to be quite honest, I hate saying this, but I became sort of political and became liberal because my friends were liberal. So I actually did not have a real reason for me to be a liberal other than my identity, other than the friends that I was surrounding myself with. And they were parroting a lot of the similar liberal tropes. And so I just ate it up without really thinking about what it was that I was actually, you know, eating up almost.
[7:07] Well, I'm going to be really, really annoying here and try and tell you your experience and tell me if I'm wrong, of course. But it's not so much that your friends, like if you had a couple of friends who were into stamp collecting, you wouldn't feel compelled to be a stamp collector. You'd be like, oh, that's interesting or whatever, but it's not really my thing. But isn't it more because there is this hidden menace behind these opinions? There's this hidden menace that, you know, if you don't agree with us, I don't know, man, I don't know if we can, I don't know if we can hang. I don't know if we can roll with each other. Like there is this kind of, this, this floating sort of Damocles ostracism that hangs over people in these kinds of environments where it's not just a matter of opinion. It's a matter of almost like good versus evil.
[7:50] Yeah, this happened when I got older, but when I was in sort of high school, I was a little bit political and a lot of my friends would demonize conservatives very badly. If there was the most extreme conservative who had some crazy idea about rape or something they would share that and say these are conservatives and me being sort of this naive high schooler i would see things like that and go oh my gosh these conservatives like don't care about women these conservatives are are old they're these white men what do they know about anything and
[8:21] That's the oprah thing like racism will end when the old white people die off right.
[8:25] And as I got to college, you know, I really started analyzing things, partly because of the relationships that I was in.
[8:32] You know, they caused me to question some of my political views and me just observing the political climate around me.
[8:38] All right. So, I mean, I do want to get to that part of the journey, but what would you say were, or was the language or perspective that was used to describe conservatives when you were getting these, like, I don't know, whatever, extreme conservatives, it sounds almost like an oxymoron, but what was the language and the tone that was wrapped around these figures?
[9:03] They were stupid, evil. They were racist. They don't care about progressing our country. They care about preserving traditional values. So they're basically just looking to set our country back.
[9:16] And was there this, I guess it's a white lash that it's called, like white males in particular are losing their grips on power and they're panicking and they're lashing out. Like there's all of this rank psychologizing rather than dealing with data, reason, evidence or anything like that. Thank you.
[9:33] I felt like that too. And I, and speaking of white people, I felt that they would pick out white people the most. And there was a double standard between how they would treat white people and how they would treat other minority groups who would do something very similar.
[9:46] Can you think of an example?
[9:49] The most recent one, and this is something that happened really recently, was when people give jokes, you know, people say, well, you cannot make fun of black people. You cannot make jokes about these minority groups. And every day when I would, you know, watch comedians out on TV, they would start the joke saying white people dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And people would find it funny. But yet if the same thing were to be said about a minority, those minorities would definitely, you know, not take the joke quite so lightly because it's directed toward them. And it's a sense of you can't touch minorities, but we're allowed to say whatever you want toward white people. And there's not going to be any repercussions for doing so.
[10:33] Right, right, right. So you went from high school and you went to a liberal arts college? Yes, I go to a liberal arts college now. I'm sorry?
[10:45] I go to a liberal arts college.
[10:47] Well, not after this call, but theoretically at this moment, yes, but later on perhaps not. So how long have you been going there and what was the transition like from high school to this environment?
[11:00] So I actually transferred from a community college. So this is actually my first year at this college. And for me, it was such an eye-opener because I was always warned by a lot of people that there would be a huge liberal bias in academia and a big liberal bias, especially at schools that I go to.
[11:19] And I noticed that when I got here, there was a big liberal indoctrination as soon as I got there.
[11:25] What do you mean? What are you talking about?
[11:26] Um well there was a diversity week actually on my school and so they do this whole welcome week thing where they get everybody accustomed to basically you know what the school is about how to get around the school and one of it was a diversity week and at this diversity week um we had this you know white southern woman come up to us and she kept talking about you know microaggressions white privilege in society and she would show these videos from mtv decoded those same videos that some of my favorite YouTubers, you know, respond to on a daily basis and get so many massive dislikes for its content. She was the one who told us that we needed to look at those videos. And I just couldn't believe it. I was almost shocked.
[12:11] Okay. Sorry. What were the videos in general and what was their content?
[12:15] The videos were about white privilege, about, you know, cultural appropriation, what kind of costumes you're allowed to wear on Halloween and things like that, mostly.
[12:24] Right, right. Okay. So some of these sort of stereotypical SJW stuff that a lot of people kind of rip limb from limb who are skeptical of that stuff, right? Right, right. Okay. And this, this went on for a week. That's, that's, that's a long, it's a long time to, there's a long list of things not to wear.
[12:42] Um, diversity, diversity day was something that only happened that day. Okay. So it wasn't a week.
[12:48] Right.
[12:49] I don't think I can handle brainwashing for a week.
[12:51] Oh, come on. You take a soft cloth, just bite down on it. Just keep it in your jaws. And then what was it like after the, I guess this orientation, what was it like after that, when you started to go into the classrooms and take the courses?
[13:06] You know, I was lucky enough to have a few teachers who were okay with dissenting opinions. I actually did a paper for one of my professors. It was an Al Jazeera documentary that I watched. And I was actually criticizing the influx of Muslim migrants coming into the country because the documentary I was watching was actually pro-Muslim migrants and just talking about the hardships that those Muslim migrants faced. And I managed to use very left-leaning sources to basically prove why it is dangerous to let in those Muslim migrants and how that's going to change the demographic of the country. I talked about, I think, rise in anti-Semitism and all these kind of other incidents.
[13:47] And my teacher ended up actually giving me a good grade on it, surprisingly.
[13:52] That's interesting. I mean, it goes against some of the expectations. You're swimming against the current, but at least you're allowed to make some headway, which is actually you get more out of your education if you oppose your teachers. Because if you're swimming with the current, you're not going to work out very much, like tying big helium balloons to your weights. And so, yeah, I mean, when I was in college and I had all these lefties and a communist or two in charge, I had to work like five or ten times harder just to make my case because you know that it's going against the grain. And if you go with the grain, it's a lot easier. So you actually get much more value out of your education. And you emerge with these like superhero powers if you swim against the character.
[14:37] And I think it just made things easier for my professor because my professor actually escaped the Iranian revolution. So I think, you know, in class, he would often criticize Islam a lot, actually, in our class, which is something you can't do if there's like a lefty or a Muslim president in the classroom. That just would not even be acceptable, let alone acceptable in his home country of Iran, let alone. So I think that just made criticizing the influx of migrants easier, I think, and easier for him to give me a better grade on it.
[15:07] So it wasn't hugely going against the grain for him, right?
[15:11] Probably not for him, given the fact that he just escaped. And for him, he sees hijabs and sees people convert to Islam, and he just goes, you know, why are you wearing that? What are you doing? So I think, you know, if it were any other professor, I probably would have gotten some, like, scorn for my paper, I think.
[15:28] Right. And how's it been for your other classes?
[15:31] My other classes are pretty good. I did have a professor, I'm not going to name a name, but I found him on Facebook and very left-leaning, like basically someone who likes Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez level leftist.
[15:47] Wow and again i sometimes get scared because i have political buttons political t-shirts um and i feel a little scared to wear them in certain professor's classes because i don't want them to grade me differently what
[16:01] Are your t-shirts saying.
[16:02] Um i have basically a lot of turning point usa pins a lot of big government socks pins um pro second amendment pins um i have a capitalist pin at a lot of different types of pins that i would get at these clubs that i join And so I would feel scared almost to just wear those things for those professors because I didn't want them to look at me differently.
[16:27] And it's interesting, too, because, I mean, some of those, I guess you're really poking the proverbial bear, right? But, you know, big government sucks. I mean... That's, well, not only is it true, but I mean, it's, you know, there are some people, I mean, I remember way back having a conversation with Noam Chomsky where we were talking about anarchism and there are some who would be considered leftists, who would be anarchists, who would also agree with you that big government sucks. But I guess that's associated with Tea Party, with small government and so on, and conservatism and then boom, right? Okay. Okay. Now you said that some of the relationships that you had began to help you question some of the tropes you had absorbed in high school.
[17:09] Um it did yeah
[17:11] What what those and what happened.
[17:12] So i had a few friends and i still talk to them but they do not agree with my new political views at all um i had one friend who was sort of an acquaintance so once they were particularly close friends but um he told me that i was brainwashed and that i was in a cult a
[17:31] Cult wow Oh, yeah. Didn't mention me, did you? That's a rumor. Yeah. And how have other people, but there must have been some, was it someone or something or some piece of data or a bridge too far that had you pulled back from that leftward drift?
[17:50] Actually, there was. So on Tumblr, there was a lot of Black Lives Matter support on Tumblr. And I remember my parents actually put CNN on because they basically just put CNN on the TV. And what they were showing was a black lives matter protest, where I saw a lot of black people, um, destroying cop cars, looting. Um, I remember hearing one of them saying like, fuck white people or something and beating up someone that they suspected to be white. And the news anchor sat there and said that this was a peaceful protest. And I could not believe that some news anchor would say something's a peaceful protest, where right in front of my eyes, I see people being very violent.
[18:33] Wait, so this is, I don't know if it's split screen or something, but this is in the same broadcast. They're broadcasting this violence, and then they're saying it's a peaceful protest.
[18:41] Yes, same broadcast.
[18:43] Wow.
[18:44] I was shocked.
[18:46] Normally, there's a bit of a gap. Normally, there's a gap. editing for this stuff.
[18:50] I don't know what happened but i you know was completely taken aback by it and everybody on tumblr would tweet black lives matter and so i thought i was the only person who saw this big you know hypocrisy behind what the news anchors were talking about and what i was actually saying and it turned out that it was all these conservatives who voiced the same opinions that i felt about
[19:12] Did you post a clip to tumblr.
[19:15] Um i actually did not because i was worried about, you know, the backlash I would see from my followers.
[19:23] Ah, see, I mean, that's what I was talking about a little bit earlier. I don't mean to have this big, giant bear trap gotcha, but, you know, like, there is this implicit threat, right? Because if you genuinely thought, oh, you know, these people are, they're for facts, they're for reason, they're for evidence, these are the conclusions they've come to, here's a bit of counter-narrative, I'm sure they're into diversity, it will just enlighten the discussion more, bring another shade to it, another perspective, then you would innocently post it and then be surprised. But you already knew that posting something to the counter narrative was risky, right? If not downright dangerous.
[19:55] Very, very risky. Right. And I find that, you know, talking to my friends too, you know, once they kind of found out I was posting stuff from just typical conservatives, you know, Dinesh D'Souza, Ben Shapiro, or I was even just, even stuff by Britney Pettibone, or just looking at stuff from Lauren Southern, just any sort of, you know, right-leaning commentator or anything. All my friends would be very disappointed with me oh
[20:20] Oh no disappointed.
[20:22] Oh yeah disappointment
[20:23] Is not an argument all right.
[20:24] Go on you know it's not and my friends messaged me and going you know what happened to you used to be very open-minded used to be these types of things you know why are you liking these types of commentators yeah
[20:36] No this um slowly shaking the head vague existential tears falling from the dewy eyes uh is is quite common and it doesn't really happen to me because I'm a bit old for that stuff. Certainly, some of the younger people I know, and I wouldn't say, I mean, you know who you're following, but I would say in general... It's people who criticize the left. You don't have to be on the right. There's lots of people who criticize the left, even from the center. And they also get, you know, they're also thrown into the giant Nazi bag of holding, so to speak. But yeah, this bit where it's like, you know, what happened to you? You know, you've really changed. You know, it's like you just got swallowed up by something. and this concern trolling of how sad and worried people are about you and you okay? Do you need to talk? You know, is there something happened? You know, this concern trolling, it's really kind of claustrophobic as it's like, I just posted some data here. Can we not assume that I've got some sort of brain tumor?
[21:38] And what's even more insulting is one of them said, you let people red pill you as if I don't have the brain to think for myself, that it's other people feeding me information and I'm just blindly going for it.
[21:50] Which, boy, leftists always project, right? That's what, whatever they're doing, they accuse you of, right? So like in the left, they say, Donald Trump colluded with a foreign power to try to swing an election. It's like, turns out that foreign power was Christopher Steele in a Steele dossier. And it was the Democrats who were doing it. But yeah, that projection stuff is kind of maddening because once, if people's personalities are so primitive that they genuinely call you brainwashed for questioning their brainwashing it's like uh how do we go where do we go from here like what conversation can we have from here.
[22:24] Exactly and it's hard to have a conversation with my friends because you know their retort basically if i question anything like white privilege or anything is you don't know anything or this is common knowledge everybody knows this Or it's because you're conservative, you don't get it or something.
[22:42] It's current year. I shouldn't have to explain this. I get that on Twitter sometimes. I really shouldn't have to explain that Nazis were fascists in 2019. It's like, yeah, well, maybe you should try. Because, you know, things that you take for granted. What's the old thing? It's not the things we don't know that get us. It's the things that we know that ain't so. That's what really, really traps us. And in these conversations, how far do they go? how often do they come up and how do they play out.
[23:10] Um not too often but the one that i had with one of my friends was about white privilege and it was the same video that i i remember seeing and i just was thinking i don't understand half of what's being presented in the video you know some of the arguments just seem really ridiculous to me you know everything from why don't we learn why are we only learning about bad stuff about black people in school you know why do we only learn about white inventors? You know, why, you know, are there so many white people in power? Stuff like that. And it's stuff that could easily be just disproven or debunked so easily. And, you know, when I tried to have a conversation with my friend about this, it almost seems as though that I was the bad person for simply questioning what was in the video and not eating any of this stuff up.
[23:58] It's almost as if it was supposed to be apparent to me that white privilege is a thing in our society.
[24:04] Well, and I mean, even if we accept some of these tropes, isn't it just majority privilege? I mean, that's kind of what you faced when you went to Japan, right? Is that there were, you know, full-blooded Japanese people who were there, was it 97% of the population and they're kind of, it's their country, it's their history. It's just majority privilege. Even if we want to say that there's such a thing as privilege, which there demonstrably isn't, because white people are attacked with absolute impunity and scorned and mocked and the most horrible things are said with absolute impunity. But even if there was such a thing as privilege, it would be more accurate to say majority privilege. And that's a whole lot less racially charged. But, of course, that's not what their goal is. It's any kind of truth like that.
[24:48] Right. No, the goal is basically just to use ad hominem attacks. I got an ad hominem attack the other day. I was in a group, and I was basically attacked as being a white nationalist and being a white person. And it's just so mind-blowing that they'll go through these leaps to basically make you look like a horrible person. Or even if you agree with people like Jared Taylor on something, or you even agree with people like Brittany Pettibone on something, or even if you, you know, venture off a little bit out of, you know, the whole Ben Shapiro, you know, spectrum, I guess, and you go out, you're looked at as a horrible person for even considering their ideas.
[25:29] Right. Right. I mean, it is, the conclusions have been reached. It's like you're saying, well, you know, maybe just maybe we should think about slavery again, you know, maybe like it's one of these things that maybe we should, we should not allow women to signed contracts anymore, like things which have absolutely been settled. You know, the Aztecs and child sacrifice. Was it really so crazy? There's everybody's little gifts, right? But it's like there are things in history that we're not circling back to revisit. And that's a good thing. You know, I think that's a really, really good thing. But they try to lump other more, controversial things are more challenging things that aren't really resolved as yet they want to put everything into that well you just want to bring back slavery and you just want a child sacrifice again you know they put them all in that yeah.
[26:21] And not only do they do things like that but you know they will you know again like i said ad hominem attack you to like a really horrible degree and basically make you look like an absolute terrible individual
[26:36] And one day they That may happen to me.
[26:39] They want me to be a tolerant left stereotype. You know, they want me back into their little, like, you know, circle, I guess you can say. And it's just not working because they're doing all these things which are proving exactly how I feel about liberals. And not only that, but they want me to feel like a victim in society because of my ethnicity, because of my gender.
[27:02] So, sorry, the ethnicity being sort of half Asian, half Caucasian, right?
[27:06] Yeah.
[27:07] They want you to feel a victim because you're part of the second and third highest earning income groups in the West.
[27:16] Yeah, we're the model minority.
[27:18] Right.
[27:18] And it's crazy how some Asians I know have shirts that say, I'm not your model minority. Whereas I think that that's a great thing. Wouldn't you want to be called the model minority? Why wouldn't you want to embrace that sort of label on yourself? Why do you see that as a negative thing?
[27:34] Well, because, well, you know, I mean, you know why the left has a whole problem with the model minority stuff, right? Because if white people are just racist, and if it is white privilege that keeps minorities down, I mean, then it should be all the minorities, right? Right. It certainly should be Asians, right? Very identifiable group. And there has been, of course, historical injustices against Asians in America and in Canada, the Exclusion Acts, the concentration camps, or at least the internment camps, I guess, under FDR. So the whole argument is, well, I mean, there's white privilege, whites are racist, and white privilege keeps minorities down, except for those outlier Asians who are like making more than whites who are, you know, quote, overrepresented relative to demographics in engineering and sciences and so on.
[28:27] And so, yeah, you kind of, I mean, some of the Asians I've talked to say, we feel like the invisible minority because we just can't be brought up. And because it really, it just destroys the whole narrative and it starts to open people up to the real answer, which is IQ differences, right? I mean, because that is the one thing that just explains everything down to a T. And so Jews have to be taken out of the equation or any criticism of, quote, Jewish privilege is immediately anti-Semitism. And then the Asians have to vanish. You've got to ghost them because their presence and success in a meritocracy, which is greater than that of White's.
[29:08] Goes against the whole, quote, answer, right? This anti-scientific, anti-data answer of just endless white racism explains why minorities do badly. So it's a real challenge. And if they can rope Asians into feeling like victims and joining this narrative, then that helps, it helps sustain this fantasy quite dangerously.
[29:33] Oh, it really does. I definitely agree with you.
[29:37] So what's it been like you say that your parents were liberal but not as liberal as you were and how have they taken this uh this journey um.
[29:46] They're actually very supportive um for uh democrats they're actually in agreement with um some of my ideas actually um they're all for free speech um in fact they feel disenfranchised with their own party actually um people like astacio cortez Ilyan Omar, my parents are completely against those people. So for a lot of left-leaning people, our parents that are very extreme to the left, mine are actually pretty sensible. So I can talk about free speech. They can look at what happened to Maliannopoulos and feel sympathetic to Maliannopoulos, even though they know nothing about his political views or anything. You know, they'll still sit there and say, you know what, this is unacceptable. Free speech should be on campus. You don't have to like this person, but, you know, just let them speak.
[30:33] And that's what I'm intendingly grateful is to have parents who, um, you know, when I tell them about the political conferences I want to go to, or just, you know, talking about some of the things I do with my club, they're just very supportive about it because they know that if I'm happy with it, then it's fine.
[30:51] Well, and you know, the whole point of an education is to expose you to different viewpoints and ideas so that you can develop and grow as a thinker. I mean, that's. The echo chamber is, you know, as I've said before, higher IQ people, we go kind of crazy with repetition, whereas lower IQ people, you know, they could just listen to that same drumbeat over and over again and it's Mozart every time. So now with your parents, how does it work for them in terms of liberal values? What is it that they find appealing if they were to be on the show and talk about it? What would they, what case would they make for the left?
[31:31] I guess in some ways, I don't know if they make a great case now because they feel very disenfranchised, but I would say part of things that probably made them left leaning probably It's just gun control, maybe abortion, stuff like that, maybe gay marriage, universal health care. But I think when it comes to foreign policy issues, I think when it comes to feminism, they take the more right-leaning side of things when it comes to those issues.
[31:55] Right, okay. Was there... I don't know, the feminists used to call it the click moment in the 60s, you know, like you're dropping your kid off at their third after school activity and you just feel like a chauffeur and you're not achieving your potential. It's this sort of story of the click moment where you're like, something changes that you feel is really foundational. Was there something like that for you where you can sort of say, well, this was me before this moment and that this is me after? Or was it really gradual?
[32:20] Oh, yeah, most definitely. It was definitely gradual. But as I say before, I remember just being a liberal, I was always just on the defense. I was always kind of angry. If someone had a view and I deemed it controversial when it really wasn't, I would get very emotional about it. And now that I'm more changed in my political views, I feel that I can talk to people of any political ideology and sit there and have a discussion with them without getting emotional about it.
[32:51] That's interesting. So let's spend a bit of time on that because that's really interesting, this level of emotionality. They're deeply felt beliefs and very passionately held beliefs, which I actually quite admire, to hold your beliefs. And I also admire the ostracism stuff because it's so effective. We are tribal animals. We are social animals. We are dogs, not cats. And when I was talking to libertarians many, many, many years ago about ostracism, people just went, like, what are you, crazy? It's like, well, the left does it, and it really works well. So we might want to learn from the people who are doing well. So, yeah, tell me more about the emotions that you would have, in these kinds of debates.
[33:36] Um basically if a guy said something and i thought it was insensitive to somebody i remember i was dating somebody he would use the word uh retard and i was always taught in high school that that was not a good word to use because it was insensitive to people who had disabilities and i remember whenever my wife at the time would do that i would say hey hey, you know, don't say words like that. I really advise that you don't do that. And he would continue to say it. And he would say to me, who is this offending? And so I would say, oh, it's offending these people with these disabilities. And he goes, are they here? I'm like, no, they're not here. I'm like, so then who is it offending? And it actually forced me to say no one is offended. I'm just speaking for these people and saying that they're actually offended by this language.
[34:26] Well, unless they're capable of astral travel. and that they're like spirits of the ancestors invisibly that's always something to to mull over but yeah no i i get that the sense that you are playing this eternal defensive role for people who are what do they call the model marginalized communities vulnerable communities like these lost poor little souls and lambs who are out there shivering in the cold and we've got to ride nobly in and give them the blankets of our infinite compassion and it is uh it is a very, passionate and and powerful it has a very passionate and powerful hold on what drives people the most which is not reason but emotion and yeah it's you really you really do feel like you can't let it pass you must always be on guard for something that's going to go wrong where somebody else might faint in the corner or or get upset and.
[35:21] It almost felt like i was doing something really good too. I thought I was fighting a noble just cause until, you know, I had to sit there and go, you know what, I'm actually not fighting a noble just cause. I'm actually trying to speak for people, people that I don't even know about what they probably think about these issues.
[35:39] Right. And it doesn't ever end because, I mean, when I was a kid, it was mongoloid. Mongoloid was used to describe people who were developmentally handicapped and then that was considered offensive and so retarded was then used which just meant slower and then that was offensive so then there was disabled or differently abled and then there was cognitively impaired and then you can never, Because the issues themselves are so painful that you're always on a landmine. I mean, people who have to struggle with children who are developmentally handicapped, you know, I'm sure that there's great grace and goodness in it, but it is really quite a challenge. And that whole sadness and unhappiness about that doesn't change based upon the language that you use. So whatever words you use is going to end up describing that a difficult situation that is upsetting for people and it's never going to end.
[36:33] Oh, most definitely. I agree.
[36:36] Now, you did say that there was a before and after moment, and then I just quite generously skipped right past that.
[36:42] Sorry about that. What was your road to Damascus Thunderbolt moment?
[36:47] I think it was that Black Lives Matter thing again, but also it was listening to other conservative YouTubers. The first YouTuber I ever walked, which actually was Blair White, if you know who that is. um can
[37:00] I just say the only thing i know about blair white is this guys guys guys guys guys guys guys anyway sorry it's a ruben report thing but anyway go on.
[37:08] Yeah i remember that interview so well with um kansas owens too but it was just i remember listening to her and i was not aware that she was a transgender woman and so it really you know shattered this narrative i had that people who are minority people from the lgbtq community you know can't possibly be right-leaning or there's no sane you know transgender people who actually make a whole lot of sense and so people like her were a big blessing for people like me right sorry about that no problem
[37:47] And probably one of your friends who you're talking to get off the phone get off the phone you'll take your brain, now how is it in terms of social circles because you have the friends who are lefties but I guess somewhat tolerant if you don't mention it too much there are people who are crazy lefties is there anyone centrist or skeptical or critical of the left who's floating around your social.
[38:18] Circle oh I do actually I have a few friends that are actually Trump supporters and one of the people that I knew for a while, I didn't know was a Trump supporter. He had a Make Liberty Great Again sticker. And so I noticed it and complimented him on it. And he was actually very surprised because, you know, I don't look like your typical average, you know, conservative or anything or Or anything like that. So he actually was very surprised. And it actually made some of our conversations, you know, a lot better. Because I can talk to him about the stuff that I do with my club. I can talk about, you know, political stuff. And we'll have, like, a great conversation about all that stuff.
[38:56] It is funny. It's almost like one of those David Attenborough nature movies. You know, like, the conservative moves deeply through the bushes. Sending off his mating call. Make liberty great again make liberty great again or he simply doesn't want to attend the meeting where they're burning trump in effigy saying it seems inappropriate and it's almost like we these these bat signals that have to go out or these hidden masonic handshakes of people who are somewhat skeptical of leftist tropes that there's got to be a way that you can identify yourself to others without adding yourself to the feral mob and.
[39:31] The ironic thing about this is i go to liberal arts college campus and this is where i met most of my conservative friends is do my liberal arts college of all places
[39:40] And how are they finding the whole um professor and and and marking stuff um.
[39:47] They didn't talk about professors but they talked about um our student government organization um they had talked about how biased it is actually and how they want to propose ideas And if you are conservative, if you are a Republican, um, they don't think very much of you.
[40:06] And is, is it just no matter what you say, or is it stuff that is specifically might get their backs up? So to speak.
[40:14] I think it's both. Cause I remember I proposed a club where me and my club actually were reinstating, um, an old club that got basically trashed to the ground because no one was running it. And I remember the student government organization, um, wouldn't really look at us and I felt that, you know, they had to say yes, because they have to be nonpartisan, but I can tell from the looks on their faces that they just did not want to have anything to do with us.
[40:41] I can't believe the school has to fund these Nazis and we have to sign this documentation. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Because the school has to fund, is that right? They have to fund student groups that are legitimate. They do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, do you have any theories as to... Why you, why, why did this lightning happen to strike you?
[41:07] I think it just was, you know, my place at the right time. And I think it was just, you know, just my experience with friends looking at the changing political climate around me.
[41:17] And I think, you know, when you have friends who are saying things that are so like crazy, when you have like a media just saying one thing and then you see something else, I feel like it was about that time that i would you know eventually you know walk away
[41:34] But don't you find that strange just sort of person to person outside of politics don't you find it strange that, seeing such a disconnect as you talked about with the description of the black lives matter quote peaceful protest seeing such a disconnect between words and the images literally being put on the screen at the same time and not being able to stand that dichotomy that opposition right like Like, that's not, that's not right. But so many other people, and I guess the people you've talked to about it, or maybe some people you've shown this to, if you've ever posted it or whatever, there's so many people who are just perfectly comfortable. It seems perfectly comfortable with this. Yeah, it's a peaceful protest. That's why half the cops are on fire.
[42:22] Oh, my friends are very comfortable with this stuff. I remember that same friend. I actually, Twitter is where I'm most vocal about my political views. And I actually defended a girl who got kicked off of Instagram. I think she had her account suspended or maybe photo removed for simply posting a photo of her and a Trump ad. And I actually thought that this was unacceptable. And I actually defended the girl and my friend sat there and said that the girl was promoting white supremacy, even though she was Asian.
[42:54] Well, but that's the wonderful thing that the left have, which is that they can just make up anything they want. And if the evidence goes against it, they can just say, well, it's false consciousness. You know, they've just, it's internalized racist. Like, they just make up anything that they want. It's like the Freudian stuff, right? Like, oh, if I have the theory about human behavior and if it's present, I'm confirmed. If it's absent, well, it's just being repressed. If the opposite is there, it's a reaction formation. And so you have this no null hypothesis situation. Like Marx did the same thing. He said, oh, the workers feel oppressed. And a bunch of the workers said, are you kidding me? I'm making three times what my dad made. You know, I've got a middle-class house. My kids are doing well. I'm not oppressed. And he's like, aha, you are oppressed. You just have false consciousness. You've internalized your oppression to the point where you don't feel. It's like, okay, so then why don't you just tell me what I feel? And I won't say anything because you just know what I feel and no matter what I say. And that is really where the brain loses its anchor, it loses its mooring to reality, and you just live in a world of words and ideas with no connection to any empirical evidence that might push back against them. To me, that's insane. Like, that is crazy. But so many people are just like, yeah, that's good. I like it here.
[44:10] It's scary that some people are still brainwashed by it. And I keep thinking to myself, like, imagine if I, you know, didn't put two and two together like I did. I would be in that boat as them thinking that that Asian woman was promoting white supremacy. You know, I would have been like a crazy liberal going to the women's march, you know, with the silly protest signs or something like that.
[44:32] If I hadn't like stopped to think, you know, why do I believe any of this stuff? And, you know, I feel so much better now that I've just, you know, completely like left all of that behind.
[44:44] Well, it's funny too, because having grown up with some hyper-emotional people I have this, you know, I'm down with passion, I'm down with emotion, I don't like the mind-body-reason-emotion dichotomy at all. But when you anchor yourself in actual facts, life becomes a lot less hysterical.
[45:09] Oh, it does. You know, when you get rid of the outrage culture aside, when you basically, you know, embrace facts, you know, it doesn't matter what other people say, you know, as long as you're being a factual person. And so, you know, I, you know, no longer believe in a lot of the Tumblr stuff anymore. And now I kind of whiz past it and just sort of cringe to myself, you know, or sometimes I take the time out to sort of respond to those videos sometimes.
[45:38] Right. What do you think of the leftist men who are around? Because there's kind of a stereotype, you know, like the soy boy kind of thing. It sounds like we've stepped on a bit of a gushy, udder-based landmine here. But what are the men around who are on the left? How do they strike you?
[46:01] I don't actually like a lot of the leftist men. The problem I have with them is that, you know, they want to be part of the feminist movement, but not even the feminist movement some of them want their voices it's almost as if they want to shut them out almost oh
[46:15] The feminists don't want the.
[46:16] Yeah the males right and there's this big divide between feminists that i see where some will say well you know men can be feminist but i'll see another post that says no men you need to shut up and listen to us women you need to stay in the back listen to our problems and just listen to our concerns which
[46:36] You know just taking the tiny scalpel of logic here. If men can't talk about women's experience, then why should women be telling men what to do?
[46:46] Yeah, and it's the same reason that I don't agree with my friends when they say, oh, well, you're a man, you can't talk about abortion. Then can pro-life women talk about abortion?
[46:56] Well, and do women then have the right to the contents of a man's wallet since they're not necessarily the ones who are out there earning it? Exactly. They're all very, you know, it's not hard to deal with in terms of just taking simple logic to it. The same thing with sort of white privilege, but it is asking people. I think it's tough for them to give up the feelings more than it is to give up the perspective, if that makes any sense.
[47:23] Oh, I definitely agree with you.
[47:25] Yeah, so what do you think of that, if that's accurate?
[47:28] I definitely agree with you on that one, too. I think for a lot of leptis people, it's hard to, you know, just get out of that mindset that they've got, you know, they're just so ingrained in it and it's just hard to get themselves out of it. And I can definitely see where they're coming from. Cause for a while, it took me a while to just, you know, change some of my views. It was definitely not an easy process. I would say it was more so gradual process to get there.
[47:53] Yeah. And I think there is an addiction problem. To false narratives, particularly outrage-based false narratives. I think it's a real addiction. And tell me if this accords with your experience or not.
[48:05] Oh, yeah.
[48:06] But, um, the reason is that it kind of burns you out to be, you know, this, you know, that famous picture, I don't know who the woman is at triggered, you know, like, you know, she's just, she's just like, I'm sorry.
[48:20] Triggly pop. I think that's what they call it.
[48:21] No, no, that's the woman with the, uh, biker's legs for arms but no this is just some woman with glasses who's like purse lipped and wide-eyed and wild hair she's triggered you know it's just like when you are constantly listening for this click of of dog whistle racism and sexism and and white privilege and like it burns you out like it's exhaust it's an exhausting way to live and the amount of adrenaline and and hypervigilance and fight or flight and attack and defense. And it really is, you know, like facts relax you. And false narratives, particularly outrage-based ones, they make you kind of hysterical. And I think what happens is it burns out your capacity to have genuine feelings with normal human beings. And then what happens is I think you end up being stuck in this groove because it's your only emotional stimulation. And then what happens is if you don't get it, I think what's underneath all of that is this massive depression and exhaustion.
[49:25] Yeah, and it really does burn me out too, especially the start of the election. I think that's when I became more politically active, I think, is just noticing just the divide between the Hillary supporters and the Trump supporters. And I got to see an interaction between someone who thought that all Trump supporters were Nazis, in all caps, some, you know, crazy feminist guy, um, who would probably be your definition of a soy boy, probably, um, saying all this stuff. And, you know, it just seems so exhausting for me to even try to respond to them because I feel that even if I were to respond to them, that no facts or reason would even like, it wouldn't even matter to them.
[50:07] Well, they've already decided who you are. They've already decided how evil you are. And it's so strange to me, and it is one of these tragic paradoxes, that the group that most believes in moral relativism are the most hysterical, finger-pointing, old testament style damn your enemies kind of group it's it's like well i'm really into moral relativism there's no such thing as right or wrong or good or evil hey that person used the word china man he's a nazi get him and it's like what are you saying this makes no sense at all how can you be this like chief inquisition inquisition guy you're throwing your enemies into the hot coals while at the same time saying there's no such thing as truth or good or evil and.
[50:54] They're supposed to be the tolerant people. And I found that the most intolerant people that I've known are actually liberals, not conservatives.
[51:02] Yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, it's one thing when you're young, you know, you got lots of energy and the outrage, you haven't burnt out your adrenals yet with constant flows of cortisol and stress hormones and so on. But boy, is it ever rough when you start to get into middle age? Because I think people squander so much of their capacity to bond and to love and to live with grace and connection and honesty and relaxation because you're constantly on the watch for any transgressions of infinitely complex rules. And I think then sort of by middle age, and this is why I think this conversation is really interesting for people because you kind of headed this off pretty early, but in the same way that like too much cocaine is just going to burn out your capacity to have natural human pleasure. I think this outrage stuff burns people out. They get to their middle age and then they're really stuck because, you know, they've been too outraged. They burnt themselves out. They can't pair bond anymore. And they don't have kids. They don't have a marriage. And man, it's really, really nasty to see what comes out of the end of this gruesome machine.
[52:11] Oh, yeah. And you would think that they would be exhausted by all this outrage they're pouring out, but they keep coming out with new stuff. Just when you think it can't get any worse, they come out with new and new stuff to be outraged about.
[52:22] It's crazy. That's the addiction, though, right? I mean, if you can't get your cocaine, you'll go all the way across town on your bare feet if you have to, right? I mean, they need the outrage, and so they need ever-escalating doses of it, which is why, what is it now, math is racist, and milk is racist, and clouds are racist.
[52:42] I heard about that, too. I was like, this is crazy. It is, but it's not crazy if you're an addict and you need all of this outrage.
[52:49] Exactly.
[52:49] And the other thing, too, is that there's always a problem when you say there's a huge issue in society, and I'm going to apply myself to solving it, right? So let's say there's racism or there's sexism or homophobia, Islamophobia, but I'm going to devote my energies, massive energies, to solving this problem. Now, if you are genuinely committed to solving a problem, then when the problem is solved, you feel satisfaction. You know, I'm going to fix that hole in the roof. You know, you go up and fix the hole in the roof. Yeah, fix the hole in the roof. Look, it's not raining on my head anymore. That's great.
[53:33] But if you have defined a problem and you're taking the wrong solution, then escalation seems just inevitable, right? So if it is the idea, well, see, there's all this white privilege, right? Well, then as the population of whites in the country diminishes, right? In America, it's gone from like, what, close to 90% down to, what is it, 65% or something like that, right? So we should be like a third less racist, right? It should be solved, right? But the problem is it's not. Or you say, well, the problem with the black communities is they don't have enough black leaders. It's like, okay, well, let's take this town. It could be any number of towns. The chief of police is black. The mayor is black. The governor is black. You name it.
[54:18] So this should have solved the problem, and this should be now statistically indistinguishable from the general population because we've solved this problem. But what happens is if you're barking up the wrong tree, you can never stop barking, right? And you've just got to keep barking louder because they should have solved some of these problems by now, but they haven't. In fact, these problems are getting worse. Income disparities are growing. You know, the black-run cities are doing terribly. Everyone thinks, oh, well, they're being run by Democrats. It's like, that's the wrong metric to be looking at, frankly. And so because, sorry for this long, long speech, but because they're not dealing with the basic facts as to why there are income disparities, which are in group, again, never judge the individuals, but in group, it's around IQ as a whole.
[55:06] Then they have to get more and more hysterical because they're wrong, you know, and they desperately want to solve these problems. They get incredibly frustrated that the problems not only don't get solved, but generally get worse. Like, I mean, even just looking, and I'm, again, I'm no fan of apartheid. It's a big giant government program. But if you look at South Africa, well, the whites were largely disenfranchised and now down to, I think, 10% or single digits of the population. The blacks are in charge the country should be doing fantastically and it's not murders have gone way up AIDS has gone way up life expectancy has life expectancy has declined these murders of the white farmers are terrible the example of Zimbabwe that kicked out all of the whites and then starved to death until they begged for the whites to come back I mean it is incredibly frustrating when you are wed to a particular ideology that says just burn up your youth and passion and energy and we will make this place a paradise. And then you've burnt up all of that youth and passion and energy and the problem has gotten worse. That's a horrible, horrible thing.
[56:09] I mean, it's like me spending all night fixing a hole in the roof and the dawn comes and there's no roof. I mean, it's like, it's really, it's really terrible. I think that's part of this whole escalation.
[56:20] I definitely agree.
[56:22] Sorry, I just gave you this long speech. You're like, Yeah, you're playing Candy Crush, aren't you? You can tell me. It's fine. Okay, and now I'd like to sort of close off, if you don't mind. What's the speech that you really want to give to, you know, the good-hearted leftists with integrity who genuinely believe that, I mean, they're not necessarily down with everyone who disagrees with me as a Nazi, but they genuinely believe free health care, you know, guns are dangerous. Abortion is a woman's choice like they they with honor with with good-heartedness this is their perspective and i'm sure there'll be people even at your school who end up listening to this but what would you like to say to them the speech that you know if you could sort of just get the classroom for for a while what would you like to say to them to help them understand where you're coming from i.
[57:17] Would say look at both sides um don't listen to what the media tells you about conservatives. Don't listen to what your friends have to say about conservatives. Look at the stuff for yourself. Look at both sides of the argument. And just like I did, you'll find that maybe you might actually find them reasonable and not as bad as you think.
[57:35] And I think all people of good conscience and a good heart have the same goal. Look, we all want sick people to have access to quality health care. We all want poor people to not starve and die in the streets. We all want a clean environment. We all want an end to war. We all want to reduce debts. We all want to reduce financial predation and corruption. Like, all decent, good people have very similar goals when you boil things down to their essence.
[58:07] And so if we, and I've been guilty of this too, so this is sort of a mea culpa as well, but if we assume that everyone who's on the left is just, you know, some crazy, conniving communist waiting to throw us into a gulag, well, we've already passed the point of any kind of debate. But there are a lot of good-hearted people and they genuinely believe that this is the way that we create moral goods in society and we help people and we take care of people and all that and i would just remind people that there's more than one way to achieve a goal and we've really been trying this whole leftist thing for the past 70 years like we really like i mean we've been piling on debt we've got huge amounts of social programs the government has grown by 10 or 15 times it's former size there's massive amounts of unfunded like like we've tried the whole spending like crazy thing oh yeah and we tried the whole redistributionist thing it was tried in an extreme and in um totalitarian societies and communist societies so it it's not really working it's something i always wonder about with the leftists where they're like oh there's you know half the country is racist and sexist and blah blah blah blah it's like but you all went to the same schools. How is this possible? I mean, how is it possible that the public school education is churning out a 50% Nazi population? This makes no sense at all. Like, is something seriously wrong with the education?
[59:31] Apparently we've reached more Nazis, apparently.
[59:34] Yeah, is there like some big after-school program that I was never invited to where you just get to burn books and people? Like, I don't know. It's really, really strange. But they never say this. And if people have managed to be these, quote, Nazis, despite all of this progressive education, well, it's almost like, well, they were born that way. Something like, is re-educating a Nazi like trying to convert a gay person? Like, I don't know. It's all these kinds of strange things. But I would certainly say that, listen to people who, and assume that people want similar things to you, which I think is true. I mean, I don't like racism, which is one of the reasons I talk about IQ differences, because it's important for us to be able to understand the truth so that we don't hate each other or fear each other or anything like that. And yeah, I think sexism is bad. I have a daughter. I don't want her to be judged negatively because of her sex. I also don't want her to be judged negatively for sharing my last name. So there's a lot of, you know, we want the best for our kids and we want sustainable societies. We want a clean environment. Let's have a productive discussion about how to achieve those things without jumping down each other's throats as irredeemably evil, which really isn't going to do much other than provoke massive conflict.
[1:00:46] So, all right. Is there anything else you wanted to add?
[1:00:50] Nothing else. I just had a great time talking with you and just, you know, share my perspective with everybody.
[1:00:55] I appreciate that. And let me know how it goes. and feel free to come back in again if you end up with some troll of a teacher. But I certainly wish you the very best. And, you know, if anyone's out there, this is a great woman to chat with and don't just dismiss her because of propaganda. That's a real shame. We really do need to have a robust exchange of ideas and I really, really appreciate your contribution to that.
[1:01:18] Oh, no problem. And thank you for having me on. You're welcome.
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