0:04 - New Decade, New Challenges
2:51 - Family Struggles and Support
9:38 - Relationship History Unraveled
18:00 - The Shocking Christmas Argument
26:50 - Understanding Her Choices
35:44 - The Allure of Materialism
40:59 - The Struggle Between Love and Reality
49:12 - Navigating the Path Forward
50:06 - The Delicate Situation
51:23 - Consequences of Choices
52:23 - The Family Ultimatum
53:47 - The Risk of Heartbreak
57:11 - Honesty and Relationships
59:25 - The Importance of Support
1:05:49 - Preparing for the Conversation
1:14:47 - The Speech of a Lifetime
1:20:23 - The Nature of Marriage
1:23:42 - Choices and Consequences
1:29:08 - The Family Intervention
1:33:31 - Taking Leadership
1:38:12 - Looking Ahead
Join us for a riveting episode where we delve into a listener's heart-wrenching family crisis involving her sister's dangerous relationship. Our conversation explores the layers of a troubling romantic dynamic, as the caller describes how her sister's fiancé has tainted family connections through his abusive behavior and manipulation. With a backdrop of Christmas family gatherings turned hostile, the caller shares the shocking details of confrontations and rude outbursts, revealing the fiancé's alarming contempt for her sister's family.
We analyze the complexities of emotional abuse as we unpack the grim realities of her sister's situation—an engagement marked by control and dependency, where excessive alcohol use emerges as a troubling coping mechanism. We explore the background of the fiancé, shedding light on the physical and psychological distress he brings not only to his partner but potentially to any future children. The discussion also touches on societal expectations and values, prompting reflection on the dangerous allure of wealth and status over familial love and moral integrity.
As the episode unfolds, we engage in a candid and strategic discussion about intervention. Drawing from personal experiences and insights, we emphasize the importance of candid conversations aimed at awakening awareness in the sister, urging her to confront the truth about her relationship. We talk about the need for tough love and the importance of a united front from the family to challenge and counter the fiancé's negative influence.
In the latter parts of the discussion, we lay out a framework for how to approach the sister with full transparency regarding the situation. We explore techniques for delivering this critical message in an impactful manner while emphasizing the potential consequences of remaining passive. Listeners are encouraged to contemplate the weight of their words and the stakes involved, as we highlight the urgency of taking action before it's too late.
This episode is an intense exploration of love, loyalty, and the difficult choices that family members must navigate in the face of toxic relationships. Tune in for insights on how to manage such delicate situations with both compassion and courage, providing listeners the tools to support loved ones potentially facing difficult decisions regarding their relationships.
[0:00] Hi, everybody. It's the first listener call of the new decade.
[0:04] We're talking with no pressure. This has to be the greatest call-in show ever because it's a new decade. Fresh into the new frontier. It is the 2nd of January, 2020. And thanks for taking the time. We're going to start with your email. We'll take it from there.
[0:21] First, I'd like to say I also have my boyfriend with me. He was there during this event, and he's just here to support.
[0:27] Hey, Stefan.
[0:28] On is he going to join in
[0:30] Or is he just listening he he may just in case i get too emotional but he's really here just to support me so well.
[0:36] Listen uh welcome boyfriend uh nice to meet you there and feel free to jump in anytime that you like uh so yeah why don't you uh tell us what happened
[0:45] All right on christmas my sister my sister's fiance went off on my family he told my parents they were bad parents and pushing my sister away he directly told me that i did not love or care for my sister. My sister did not say anything during this entire fight. She was drunk. This all ended with my sister and him leaving our house and going to a hotel. What sparked this? Nothing. It appears he was mad that my parents were not going to pay for their wedding. Their wedding was never discussed previously except for when my sister told us they were engaged. Our family thinks it was a premeditated argument since he said right after to my sister that he was going to bring this up today and with the fact he already had his bags packed, but not my sister's. My family and I have only met him three times before this. Last Christmas, which my sisters and I had another argument, my cousin's wedding, and this Christmas. He has been nothing but rude, impulsive, argumentative, and downright misogynistic. Through all this, my family has been nothing but kind and understanding, figuring my sister was smart and she must see something good in him.
[1:55] We know now that he does not have a good relationship with his family, has taken steroids, and was molested as a child. He is also very wealthy. After this event, my family is done with him, and all we want is my sister away from him and safe. We have been trying to be supportive for my sister at this time, telling her we love her and will always be there for her. She left him on Friday, where my family immediately booked a flight to her, and we're all going to move her out, but went back to him, not hours later. I am completely at a loss on what to do. I am continuing to try and be nice and supportive to my sister, telling her I love her, and if she needs anything, I am here. She says all she needs is him in her life. Please, if you have any advice on this situation, on what my family and I can do going forward, I would greatly appreciate it. I know my sister needs help, most likely by a professional, but I need to know how to get this through to her.
[2:52] I'm afraid that at this I'm afraid at this point that his Abyss might get physical, I fear for her safety and the safety of her dogs Thank you for Taking the time out of your schedule to do this I do have lots more to say But it's too lengthy to put in the email So that's it.
[3:09] Wow you know Christmas is a hell of a time right Yeah It really does bring out the best and the worst in people And I'm sorry that you ended up On the tail's end of that flip and got the worst Of this guy can you tell me a little bit about or a lot if you like the history of their relationship but when they met and how long they'd be going out and how it's been for that
[3:30] Yes of course so they met about four years ago so my sister took a job down south leaving home and then what she loved and then they moved her up way north which she hated she hated the weather hated everything about it. And she met him not long after that. So she was still up north and she was planning to move back down south. And she met him and they didn't really go out. She just met him at a bar. And then she moved back down south and they stopped talking for a while because she found out he was on steroids and she didn't want anything to do with that, understandably. But then about a year ago, I guess they got back in touch and he was sending tickets to her to fly back north for like concerts and things and to hang out. And that was the first we were hearing about him again. And then what happened was my sister got very sick. She was her mid-20s and she just got really sick nobody knew really why they knew the symptoms but weren't sure what was causing it and when we heard she was sick my mother who was a stay-at-home mom all her life immediately booked a trip down to where she was and took care of her for two months took care of everything because she couldn't move she had to do a lot of treatments and had to drive a lot of places.
[4:56] Sorry, do you know what she had? Was it ever figured out?
[4:59] Yes, she had blood clots, which it just happened to be a kind of perfect storm where her lifestyle, some genetic issues and stuff like that just happened to make her form blood clots in her legs and her arms. So she couldn't move or do anything for a couple months.
[5:17] What was her lifestyle that contributed to this?
[5:20] Well, her job made it so she was traveling a lot. So she was on a lot of planes and it was a very sedentary kind of lifestyle. So just that factor and then with plus the added genetics on top of it just made it so that it was just perfect for blood clots to form. So she, once my mom came down for two months, her fiance, not, they, he decided to come down and look for a place to live in.
[5:50] The South and
[5:51] Like they weren't dating or anything. Like as we understood it over Thanksgiving last year, she said that they weren't dating or anything like that, but he was going to move down because he wanted to give him.
[6:03] He was, he was just, the story was he was sending her tickets for concerts and stuff, but they weren't dating.
[6:08] Yes. That's what she told us. I don't know how honest she's been with us, but yeah, we were like, come on.
[6:13] Did anyone believe that? No, guys, guys just send tickets to girls and fly them all over the place for, for friendliness.
[6:20] Oh no, we didn't believe that. We told her, we're like, well, obviously he wants to date you. Like it's obvious and told her, don't be naive. Like, like this is obviously what he wants. Like he wants to be in a relationship with you, but it was her story. I mean, I'm just going with what I was told.
[6:37] No, I get that. I'm not blaming you for what she said. I just wanted to know how naive the family was being, and it sounds not very naive. Okay, go ahead.
[6:45] Oh, no, we were not naive at all. All right, so, yeah, sorry, go ahead. My dad plain out said, no, you're dating this boy. Right.
[6:52] Now, sorry, I'm so sorry. Do you think that she was dating him and lying, or they weren't dating and she was lying about him wanting to date her? i
[7:04] Think they were dating and she was lying because nobody moves across country for someone that they don't want to be with so.
[7:13] I yeah just just for background when you first emailed me i wanted to move in for this call but you wouldn't let me just just so everyone knows because you know that's what people do you need to have a conversation want to hang out with someone You just move. So, uh, go on.
[7:28] So he moved down, got his own place, but after about a month, they were practically living together and they decided to come up for Christmas last year. So my sister brought him up for Christmas, which he stayed the entire week over Christmas. He didn't see his family at all. He just stayed with ours. And during that time, they were, he kept to himself the whole time, didn't really interact with our family or anything like that.
[7:59] Wait, what? Yes. Wait, he's staying at your house?
[8:03] Yes. He's staying at my parents' house. Correct.
[8:05] Yeah.
[8:05] And listen, I mean, I don't know what goes on with this younger generation, but when I was, I guess, your age, being a good house guest meant you didn't just stay in your room like some sort of golem under the mountain. Like you owed your hosts decent conversation. You owed it to them to be an easy guest, great to help out with the dishes, like that kind of stuff. Like if people are putting you up, you kind of owe them, and it's not like you give them money or anything like that, but you owe them it being pleasant to have you around, right?
[8:35] Right. No, I totally agree. We thought it was strange, but we were like, okay, well, maybe he just doesn't know us. We are, my family's quite a lot to handle, which there's three girls in the family. So a lot of female energy, a lot of, we're very loud and things like that. But no, he just stayed in the room the whole time. And he, my sister stayed in the room with him. So she wasn't really into the Christmas celebrating with us. And that's, we had a fight last year, which was because of it. We were mad at my sister for spending so much time with him because he would go to the gym about three to four hours a day, When he was up with us during christmas And we my sister who had just you know had blood clots and stuff couldn't go to the gym and work out So we were like, Why are you going to the gym with him? We want you to spend time with the family like he can go to the gym We don't care. We just want you know, it's christmas. We want to spend time together You know, I apologized I.
[9:33] My sister accepted it.
[9:35] She never apologized or anything, but we got over it.
[9:38] And then the next time we saw him was in October for a wedding this year. He didn't come down. He didn't come and see my family again. And we did try to go to where they were because they told us they were engaged in Easter. They got engaged. My sister waited days to tell us. She calls us a couple days after it happened and has to convince us that she's happy, where she said, I'm really happy for this. And we're all very confused, but okay. So after that, we decided to plan a trip down to visit them, all of us, so we could celebrate their engagement and get to know him better. And we plan it several months in advance. It's, you know, everything's planned, booked our tickets, all that kind of stuff. And then a week before we're supposed to go down, he cancels because he tells my sister he doesn't want us in his house because he doesn't want us snooping through his stuff while he's at work. And we're very confused because we don't.
[10:52] I assume that you guys were planning on snooping through his stuff while he was home. I mean, you don't wait, wait till he goes to work. My heavens, right?
[10:59] No. Yeah. We were planning on doing it in front of him. That's why we were a little confused.
[11:03] Yeah. No secrets, right? Yeah. Right. Got it.
[11:06] But we're very confused and don't understand why he did it. And we told her, we're like, well, this doesn't make any sense. You know us. We're your family. We don't do this normally. We have no interest in going through his stuff. We just want to celebrate your engagement. And we want to, you know, have a little family vacation for this.
[11:26] So he, it just ends up getting completely canceled. So understandably my me and my younger sister both very upset about this and we tell our parents we're like okay something's going on we you know we might need to do something and my both my parents are like okay yes this is very rude we don't understand what's going on but we trust your sister you know she's we raised her right she's a smart girl you know let's give him one more chance. So we don't see him again until October, which was my cousin's wedding. And during that time, it was only a couple days that they were there with us. And during that time, he is very argumentative. He's trying to pick fights with my dad, my boyfriend, my younger sister's boyfriend, just being everything he says, he's right. And it was just really weird. and we're just but during that time he was going through a rough patch so my dad's like no you know he was better than christmas you know we just give it to him we just need to get to know him better we're like okay fine and then this christmas comes and they come again to my family's christmas.
[12:42] And they were first they made demands on how the room should be set up what certain things should be in there certain like having their own private bathroom things like that which okay whatever my parents just were like fine we can do this for you and they come they come the whole time they were here my sister was drunk she just never stopped drinking and which was very concerning for us because we're like why do you feel the need to keep drinking, Which we did call her out on Christmas. I told her, I was like, look, we understand that, you know, drinking's fun and all. If you want to do it with family, we understand. But why are you doing it to excess? She just like was like, oh, you know, I, I, it's fine, whatever.
[13:32] And okay.
[13:33] And then so it's the time. So he, so we, first we have our Christmas with my family, like my family and extended family kind of thing, which every person he talked to, he was very rude. And just said very inappropriate things, which, you know, was.
[13:52] Well, inappropriate how? Like just in terms of politeness or sexuality?
[13:58] Cussing, like trying to be argumentative with my cousins and things like that. Like, I believe he told my cousins at one point during this party that he didn't understand why they were at our house for Christmas because we're just low lives, apparently. But things like that so just in general insulting my family altogether i didn't know i didn't know about this until today actually but and then christmas came we you know all in good mood our family really likes christmas we everybody got each other's presents it was great christmas my mother got him gifts and my mother got my boyfriend gifts too but she was like okay look Look, you know, I don't know you that well. So my gifts are kind of boring. Here's some like shirts and things like that, that I think you're nice dress shirts. I think you'll need. But as I get to know you, I'll get you better things. You know, we after we open presents, we get a nice dinner. We play a friendly game of cards. And then we then it's right before the argument. So.
[15:02] Where I understand is it all started with us trying to plan a family vacation. So we were all together. So we're like, okay, no, because we had the tickets from when we were supposed to go down there to celebrate their engagement. And we needed to use up the miles. And we're like, okay, so we have to get, we have to go on a family vacation at some point. So, you know, we have to use the tickets. So let's go on a family vacation. Where do you guys want to go? Where do you want to do kind of thing? And we're all discussing it.
[15:30] And he turns to my parents and he goes well who's paying for this and my parents look at him kind of weird and like well you guys are gonna you know we're all gonna pay for it kind of thing, and he goes oh well then we're not we're not going.
[15:45] Count us out
[15:46] And I looked at him I said didn't you just buy my sister a thousand dollar present for Christmas and he goes well I have priorities and I'm like oh okay and then my mom is like I'm like where is this coming from why are you talking about this and he goes well as I understand it you're not helping out financially in other areas either and she's like what are you talking about and he starts going on about their wedding how my parents aren't going to pay for their wedding or anything well their wedding was never discussed the only thing we talked about their wedding was after their engagement where my sister called and said they were engaged they talked about a wedding in like two to three years so never ever was this discussed previously so my parents are like what are you talking about like, my mom very angry and went off on him telling him like he has no right to tell my parents that.
[16:47] I believe he said at this point,
[16:49] He told my parents that they were pushing my sister away and that they weren't supporting her or being there for her. And my mom was like, I don't like we supplied everything for our daughters. We had an agreement that we were going to pay for their college tuition so that they could start their adult life debt free and then they could do what they want from there. And if that's not enough for you then then she left the room so after that like my my dad was just in shock and left the room I started crying my sister left I started crying and my my older sister grabbed me and she said what did I do and I just looked at her and I was like what are you do?
[17:41] Do you not know what happened? And her fiance got really angry and said, I told you that I was going to bring this up today. And he's like, it happened last year too. And I looked at him and I said, last year had nothing to do with you. And I tried to explain myself and he immediately went on his phone.
[18:01] And that's when my boyfriend turned to him and go, are you really on your phone right now and he goes yeah I mean I've heard this all before and obviously she does not care for or love her sister and I was just in shock and, just started you know really crying and then my younger sister came back in the room and told them to get out of the house and so after that they left and they went to a hotel and we our whole family was just we were just in shock of what happened because it came out of nowhere and no egging on nothing it just it i i don't have any words i i don't know why.
[18:42] I'm not sure why Look, it's easy from the outside, so please take this in the spirit in which is intended, but this guy's a total jerkwad, right? I mean, he's rude. He's taking steroids. He's addicted to exercise. Lord knows what else he's on, right? I mean, he's lying. He's insulting. He's swearing. He's putting down your family. And it's like, but he's rude. It's like, yeah, no, I get it. Like it's funny and it's funny that this is the difference right which is i think why you want to talk to me i hope which is this see you want to give me more and more information about this guy but i got him from the first piece of information you gave me right so you want to keep piling on like and another thing and another thing right and i'll tell you what i'll tell you how it works for me.
[19:35] And then don't worry, this is just the beginning. And I'll just say why it works for me is important in a sec, right? So the way it works for me is you're trying to convince me that someone's, let's say, a murderer, right? And then you say, okay, here's one video of him strangling a guy until he dies, right? And so I'm like, okay, he's a murderer, right? But then what you want to do is say, wait, wait, wait, I have another 15 videos of this guy strangling someone. Well, it's not always wrangling sometimes he's garroting them sometimes he's shooting them right and i'm like no no no i get it you already showed me he was a murderer with the first tape right yeah
[20:13] No i totally understand i i guess going through it was supposed to help.
[20:18] Me i'm glad you look i'm glad if it's helpful to you to get it off your chest I don't need, like, I don't need more than the first instance.
[20:25] Okay.
[20:26] And it's not like I'm a trigger-happy convicto guy. It's just that I understand what character is. I understand what personality is. I'm not saying you don't, right? But in terms of like, because what I hear a lot of is, well, he did this thing, but you say, ah, well, okay, fine. You know, you want your own bathroom. That's fine. We can accommodate, you know. Well, maybe he's going through a tough time and all that. Now, that's why you're in this situation. Yes. Is the excuses, right? Mm-hmm. Because you guys are thinking, well, you know, we all have our bad days. It's like, no, that's not how this works, right? Mm-hmm. This is not, he's not having a bad day. No. He's not having a tough time. He's a manipulator. He's a liar. He's bringing out or provoking or unmasking the very worst conceivable behavior on the part of your sister,
[21:17] Right?
[21:18] Mm-hmm. I mean, now she's lying to her family. She is having to defend this guy. And she's turning into a raging alcoholic.
[21:26] Yes.
[21:27] So she is in grave danger, which is why you're calling, right?
[21:32] That's exactly why I'm calling.
[21:33] Grave, catastrophic, disastrous, life-destroying danger. And the reason why she's in such danger is not just this guy. But if you try to separate them, he's going to try and get her pregnant.
[21:48] Right. That's our biggest fear.
[21:50] Of course, because then you're lashed to this lunatic for a quarter century. Right.
[21:56] Well, and not only that, but he we know he was molested as a child and I don't think he ever got help for it. And we're very concerned of what he could do because he is very most of his arguments come from when somebody questions masculinity. So there was an argument about like sports well not really an argument just a discussion and he got very offended which none of it was directed at him and i i we just fear that something may happen if they if he did if they do have a child in that sense so well.
[22:36] I assume he was molested by a male he
[22:39] Was it was his older cousin right molested now how.
[22:42] Did i know it was a male
[22:43] Because of his masculinity problem with masculinity well.
[22:48] And this is not everyone who's i assume he's kind of bulked up like a diesel tank or something
[22:52] Right yes he is is it like.
[22:54] Is it like turn sideways get through the door kind of swollen vein stuff
[22:57] Yeah he's he is massive and it's you can tell it's not right right.
[23:05] Okay yeah well three to four hours a day plus steroids that's that's a man monster right And just in case he ever hears this, my name is Bob and I live in, I live in Honolulu. Yeah, that's it. Honolulu. That's where I'm, that's where I'm living. Now, I look sympathy for the guy. He was molested as a kid and so on. His coping mechanisms are obviously not ideal, right? The hyper masculinity comes from the homosexual rape as a child, right? So this becomes, he's got to become like a over the top caricature of masculinity, which means he, believes that masculinity, well, men are stronger than women, so I'm going to be super strong. Men have more testosterone than women, so I'm going to be super aggressive, right? And so he's swung because he was treated, in a sense, as a girl by an older man. He's kind of swung to the opposite extreme. Now he's become a cartoon caricature of masculinity, right?
[24:03] That's very correct.
[24:04] Okay. That's a very unstable personality structure, in my humble opinion. And And you're right, dangerous. Now, with regards to, you said the abuse could turn violent, physically violent. It hasn't as yet, to your knowledge, right?
[24:20] Correct. I don't know, to be honest. My sister has pretty sure she's been drunk the entire, their entire relationship up to this point. Because I've gotten many drunk calls from her since last Christmas. And my parents have too. like anytime she calls us is only when she's drunk and we had a talk with her because we were concerned and didn't understand why she was drinking so much well it's quite obvious now why she was drinking so much and it should have been you know accounted for earlier but here we are.
[24:57] Now, was she herself ever that kind of gym rat situation? Does she, well, no, you said she was pretty sedentary in her job,
[25:04] Right? Right. She has always been, so I wouldn't say overweight because she used to be very active and it just kind of hit her, especially with all her problems with her medical stuff after college, that she became very sedentary. Commentary and things like that so yeah she used to go to the gym quite often and we've like our family has always been quite active and things like that but never to that extent ever like we go to the gym maybe for an hour take some workout classes or something like that right so you're.
[25:44] Looking to be fit not
[25:45] Yes you know.
[25:47] Like monstrous he-man okay got it okay okay all right now is he tall, good looking, that kind of thing? I know it's tough to judge his looks when you know the personality.
[26:01] Yeah, I would. I mean, I can see where she would be attracted to him. He is very tall. I mean, personally, I'm not. Yes, I can see. Yeah. You mean attracted to him as opposed to being tall, right? Yes. Yeah. But yeah, yes. He's generically attractive.
[26:20] Okay. So you get the height and you get the muscles and you get whatever, right? So he obviously is working physically for your for your sister in some manner, right? Because it's not like he's attractive as a person. So it's got to be the looks or the muscles or whatever, right? Like in her world, he's kind of like an alpha. Is that fair to say?
[26:44] Oh, that's definitely fair to say. Because the way he treats her, he very much orders her around.
[26:51] And growing up with my sister, there was no way you could order her around. So I'm quite shocked that this is the man she's chosen to be with. But I get your sense that, yeah, maybe she was trying to find someone alpha. I'm not sure, but yeah.
[27:07] And has she had, I don't know, it sounds bad. Does she have a lot of boyfriends before? I don't mean that. I mean, is this the first big serious, you said four years off and on, right? So is this the first big serious thing she's had going on?
[27:21] No, she had, well, at the end of high school, beginning of college, she dated someone for four years, And he's the exact opposite of this guy. He was tall, but he was no way muscular. He was very timid. He was nothing like this man at all.
[27:38] And what happened to that relationship? Why did it end?
[27:41] She ended the relationship because she felt he wasn't putting enough time into their relationship. So she didn't like the fact that he wasn't taking more steps for her.
[27:53] So that's what. So she dumps the guy who's not taking enough time in the relationship to go with the guy who spends four to five hours a day at the gym.
[28:01] Right. I'm shocked as you are, because this is the exact opposite of who my sister was or is.
[28:10] Okay. So let's go back to when they first met. They met at work. Is that right?
[28:15] No, they met at a bar.
[28:17] Oh, sorry. You mentioned it. I met at a bar. And... Do you have like when when did you first hear about him
[28:24] So i heard about him so let's see, so i'm guessing it would probably be this summer of 2016 was when i first heard about him he all i know was he was very nice because the where she lived she did not like she didn't really have any friends she didn't really get along with people and i'm and most people were very rude to her so she was quite like he just happened to start up a conversation i'm guessing with her or something like that i'm not positive but he she just said that she met this guy and he was very nice and all.
[29:05] Right now we got to back up a little here right we got to back up just because so far everything's been wonderful glowing you know great family great sister who got corrupted by this giant satyr of legs for arms, whatever, right? So, why was everyone rude to her? Why didn't she have any friends?
[29:26] Well, the area which she lived in was very... I don't know if you've ever been to these types of places. I've been to very few in my life, and I don't really understand it, but they're very, like, inward-looking, so they don't really accept people who move into their city. They see outsiders as, like, like they're very against them kind of thing.
[29:49] Like an insular, small town-y kind of place, right?
[29:51] Yes, but it was a big city, but yeah, it acted like a small town kind of place. My sister and I went there to visit her. We experienced the same thing. People were very rude to us. It was quite shocking because we're from the Midwest.
[30:07] Like rude how? Yeah.
[30:10] And so a lot of people at the bars, when my sister would go out, they would call her like a lesbian. They would like if you were in a parking lot, like like if a car was backing out instead of like waiting for you to walk by or something, they would like like ask you to move out of their way or something like that. I remember one story my sister told where she said that she was at a shopping center and this lady was having trouble getting a flower into her cart and everybody was just walking around her. So my sister just came up and stopped and held the cart for the lady to put the flower in. And the lady looked at her and goes, you must not be from around here. So like common decency is out the window for that town.
[30:54] And why did she stay there?
[30:56] She stayed there for work. She was promised.
[30:58] Well, that just begs the next question. I know it was for work, but why would she, I think, why would she stay in a place so culturally the opposite of where she grew up? I mean, there are jobs everywhere, right?
[31:10] Right. And that's what we told her. And she did end up quitting her job and moving back down south where she really liked it, where she had friends and everything like that. So I'm, I mean, she probably should have left sooner. I think her job was just telling her, oh no, you know, it'll get better. Just do, stick it out. So, I mean, our family, we're always, I believe we told her, if you hate it so much, no, just move. Just move. Like, we understand. You can move. Like, you can get a job. Like, you're very smart. You have a good education. Okay. So.
[31:38] Okay, good. So that was. But then this guy got his hooks in, right?
[31:43] Right.
[31:43] Right. Okay.
[31:44] And we never met him and didn't really hear anything about him because it was literally right before she moved. It was like a month before she moved back down south.
[31:55] Right. Okay. okay now is there anything else in this guy's background that you think is relevant that you know i
[32:03] Know he doesn't have a good relationship with his family because the day after christmas we went to the hotel they were staying at because she left all her like belongings and everything so we went to you know go get her and tell her because you know we loved her and we didn't understand what's happening you know like ask and my boyfriend brought up because he was there he said has he ever acted this way before and she said yes in front of his family so i know he does not have a good relationship with them and i know that he his family still associates with the cousin that molested him and things like that so and i know.
[32:47] Yeah that's uh that's a hell of a betrayal
[32:49] Yeah and I know that he his family is very wealthy but, can you think of anything yeah i that's i mean that's all i can think of that would about him that i really know i.
[33:03] Mean four or five days at a four or five hours a day i assume it's not every day but there's a lot of time at the gym and just does he work outside of that you don't have to tell me where or in what field or anything but just does he like have a job job yeah
[33:17] He has two jobs he works for his family's company and then he works somewhere else So he has two.
[33:24] Jobs. So there's two jobs. He goes to the gym all the time, but her last boyfriend just wasn't as available.
[33:30] Right.
[33:31] Is she a fan of Fifty Shades of Grey?
[33:35] No.
[33:37] Because this, you know, this like muscled up guy with lots of money and he's tall, it's kind of like the Jessica Rabbit for women to some degree, you know, just like, I ain't bad, I'm just drawn that way. Where every, you know, mock, every sort of fertility or hypergamy marker is kind of off the charts. And that seems to have, I guess, bedazzled her a little.
[33:58] Yes, definitely. Oh, he also works on cars and stuff. Like he has a lot of cars, like expensive cars and things like that. And that's only relevant in the sense that my sister has always liked really nice cars. But yeah, other than that, other than showing his wealth. Yeah i i just yeah i i think she is just i think the money is something that she's very much into because i especially him doing steroids you can tell like his face he he's developed a lot of acne and stuff so it's not like and he's already losing his hair and things like that.
[34:34] So i well that's obviously a massive plus for any sane human being but no i get it i I mean, it's it's not not necessarily a great look with acne and, you know, this massive frame or whatever. Right. So, OK, so is it is it the money? Do you think that the majority factor?
[34:50] Yes, I really do, because I don't see anything else that like all she talks about him now is about the money. That's all she talks about.
[35:01] What does she say about it?
[35:02] Just like she brags about how expensive her engagement ring is. She talks about like all the gifts he gets her and the new cars they buy and we actually had a conversation over christmas where my sister goes oh you should meet her fiance his sister she's very nice but she's not as rich as him and we our family like looked at each other and go, what does that matter i don't think i've ever judged somebody about how much money they have So it's just the way she talks now, it's just, it's quite shocking. Just everything's about, has a monetary value kind of speech.
[35:45] And is that new? Yeah. Okay, it's like I get that there's the three girls and... There's how you were raised and there's values, but there are personality differences between siblings, IQ differences between siblings. I think an average of eight points, it can vary that much. So there are differences, which, you know, vive la différence, we should enjoy diversity within families and all of that. But so looking back on her character is not an indication of how she was raised or anything like that. But looking back, can you see any of that in her history?
[36:19] Well, yes, we did go to a private school when we were growing up. And there was a lot of wealth in that school system. So I can see where she had several friends that were very well off. She was very much into brands and like brand clothing, brand purses, brand everything. And my family, we did very well for ourselves. But, you know, we couldn't afford, you know, a new car every year or something like that. And she did, when she got out of college, she did spend a lot. She got into debt because she spent so much money on herself. So, yeah, I'm looking back. Yeah, I can see where she probably was got into her head that she deserved the finest things or something like that. And I know in her one of her past relationships, like very brief, she dated a very, very rich man who had a like his own, his family had their own private jet and things. And she turned him down because he wanted her to move away with him. And she wasn't done with college and she wanted to stay and, you know, finish her degree and things like that. So, yeah, I mean, I just it's just concerning that she thinks that wealth is more important than her family now.
[37:40] Is she Christian?
[37:42] Yes, we were raised Catholic. So.
[37:45] So I'm no theologian, but I do seem to recall a certain amount of skepticism, if not downright hostility to placing material wealth above virtue or all throughout the Bible, particularly, of course, in the New Testament. But is there any pushback from her religious training, her religious side, her faith against this, you know, kind of soul-eating materialism?
[38:13] That's a good question. I haven't seen much, but I know like she definitely says things like, oh, you know, I have to, even if I don't like eating my meal, I have to finish it because, you know, that's a good thing to do. Like, I don't want other people to like starve or something like that. Like, I haven't seen much of her religious aspects come into light with her.
[38:37] So for me, that's very important because we're looking at pushback. Right. So if she says like, you know, like, like some guys have these conversations because there's, you know, guys have a type and they're sort of susceptible to that type. And guys, I mean, I mean, all I know are like old married farts like me now. But when I was younger, you'd see a guy who was having his, his heart was being wrapped around the finger of some girl who happened to have power because she was a particular type that he almost couldn't resist. Yeah, it could be a redhead, could be a tall girl, whatever it was, right?
[39:11] And you'd say, and if she was not a nice person, if you're a bad person or whatever, then you'd say, come on, man. Like, I mean, I know she's your type, but trust me, it's not a good idea, right? Now, the way that it always played out was the same, which was that if the guy defended her to the death, so to speak, then he just had to kind of go through the ringer, right? Because, you know, we weren't family, we were just sort of male friends talking, right? But if he was like, yeah, no, I know, man, it's, oh, you know, like I keep kicking myself and like, it's not right, but she's got some kind of hold over me and I keep fighting it, right? Those guys, you know, it was 50-50, they'd get out of the quagmire, they could like roll like a mastodon out of a tar pit and get themselves free but that's you know what i'm sort of trying to figure out is is are there any value space pushback like yeah you know i'm kind of dazzled by the money and and i'm concerned about that you know i mean i do love really nice and expensive things but blah blah is there or is she just like no problems
[40:09] Well, yeah, she's definitely, well, with the events that happened, she is absolutely torn up with everything that's happened and everything he said to us. And, like, I know when they canceled the trip in May, she was really upset as well. So, there's definitely, I just, the only problem is I don't know what she's telling him or what he's telling her where she's just not, she's not talking to us right now.
[40:39] No, no, sorry, I get all of that. I'm not asking you to speculate on things you don't know. I'm just, is there any part of her that says, or anything that you've heard directly from her or got indications of, which says, there's a problem here. I can work on it, or he can work on it, or I'm going to talk to him. There is something negative.
[41:00] I mean, if she's in the source the whole time, it's going to be tough for her to get those kind of coherent thoughts together. But is there any part
[41:06] Of her that's saying
[41:07] There is a real problem here that does need to be resolved?
[41:12] Yes, because she said that she knows because I think we made a comment on him being a baby, like all his demands. And she goes, no, you're right. He is acting like a baby. And I'm trying to, you know, work on this with him and understand that, you know, help him grow up a little. And the other thing she said she said something else hold on let me let me think for a second, yeah I can't I can't put my finger on it but I know she said something else because she calls the other thing is she she talks to my mom every day and so I know that she, she my mom has said stuff like to us about like what she said about him like that he he was flirting with other women or something like that and my sister caught him And she's like, I don't understand why she would do this. And like I told him that, you know, you can't you can't flirt with other women. You're with me now and things like that. So I know she understands he has problems, but I don't know the extent that she understands that these problems actually reside. If that makes sense.
[42:18] Well, that's all well and good. And I appreciate you sharing that with me. But does she have any problems or has she expressed any significant reservations about his behavior with her family,
[42:29] With you guys?
[42:31] No, she hasn't even apologized to us for what happened. She just goes with it, just tells us his excuses and then says, well, he wasn't, you know, just repeats his excuses that he made to her and then doesn't do anything about it.
[42:47] Well, yeah. So to me, there is an element of addiction to these kinds of hypergamy stimuli. And again, it can be for men, it can be for women. But in this case, so, you know, the trouble is she's probably thinking something like this. You know, he's reformable, right? Because if you don't particularly like the person you're with, but you still want to be with them, then you pretend that they can be changed. That's a fantasy, right? You know, it's like, I don't like this house, but it's a fixer-upper. I can refinish the basement. I can put in a wing. I can do the windows, whatever it is. I can re-roof the damn thing, right? But of course, people aren't housed. You can't renovate or you can't fix and change people fundamentally, right? Or even usually on the surface. Now, one of the concerns, of course, is that if she's gotten used to this hyperstimulus of the height, the muscles, the money, then the concern will be if, let's say, she says, oh, I'm going to break up with this guy,
[43:43] Right? Well, the next guy she goes out with
[43:46] Is going to be probably not quite as tall. He certainly won't be as muscular and he's probably not going to be anywhere close to his rich, right? So then she's like, ah, you have to readjust your expectations. You have to recalibrate what you value. And, you know, if this guy is the one who got away with all the money and, you know, all of the opportunities and all of the muscles or whatever, then it's kind of tough to adjust. You know, it's like when you go from the movie, you open the door to the exit, you go from the movie place into the bright afternoon, it's like, ow, you know, too much adjustment. If you go the other way, you can't see a damn thing. And that is the big challenge is probably she feels like if it's not going to be him, then she's going to have to deal with the regular-sized guy with
[44:42] The regular-sized income. And that probably feels like quite a drop,
[44:49] Quite a fall, if that makes sense.
[44:51] Yeah, that does make sense.
[44:54] So that's certainly one aspect, I think, that in terms of like getting her free. Now, the other thing I wanted to ask you in particular was, does she have a habit, if you sort of look back, of conforming to, in a sense, the strongest or most dominant personality around and losing herself?
[45:14] I would say no. She's used to being more of the center of attention than anything. So this is very unlike her. Her personality changes within the last year is extreme, at least in my eyes.
[45:33] Do you think that she's doing any substances other than alcohol?
[45:38] I i really don't think so because i i i really can't say i mean i would say no but i wouldn't surprise me if she was.
[45:48] Because if he's got this sort of empty narcissistic vanity thing going on you know one of the danger with narcissists is that you kind of get drawn into this worldview of them as being the greatest and the best and the whatever it is right superior in every single conceivable way. And if you get sort of sucked into this worldview of their narcissistic grandiosity, then they do become like the one and only, like what they say, this one-itis, you know, this disease where it's like, only this person will be the only way that I can find love, the only way I can be happy, the only way that they're the best, they're the greatest and so on. Now, if narcissists can kind of hoover you into, I don't know if this guy's a narcissist, I'm just talking in general, right? But if narcissists can kind of hoover you into that world view where they're the greatest.
[46:36] Then it's really easy to infect you with this idea that, well, if it's not me, it's nobody. I'm the last stop in the station to love. There's after me, it's just desert and nothing, tumbleweeds and emptiness.
[46:50] And that sets up both a kind of irrational desire, but also there's a great fear, a fear of being abandoned, a fear of being left. If it's not this guy, because he's the best, right? He's the most muscular, he's the tallest, he's the wealthiest, he's the best. And if it's not him, I'm going to have to settle for something average. And if you have that vanity yourself, that's almost becomes like an impossible thing to consider. So that's number one. Number two, the narcissistic worldview has both vanity and the flip side of vanity, which is rage. Because vanity is a sense of entitlement and a sense that you would just do things because of, you know, whatever. It could be because you're good looking, because you're super smart, because you're very muscular in this case, because you're wealthy. People should just respect you. People should just look up to you. They should worship you in the way that you kind of emptily worship yourself. Now, the world is generally not super friendly to those kinds of beliefs because everyone's got their own lives and so on. Now, if you're some big famous celebrity and, okay, that's one thing, but this guy's not in that league, right? So then the problem is, and this has to think what you alluded to earlier, the problem then is, if you have that kind of vanity, and you're the best, and you're the greatest, then you can't handle criticism at all.
[48:14] And when you criticize someone who's got that kind of grandiosity, I mean, the lashing out, the aggression is off the charts. And it's impenetrable because the entire personality structure is based upon this grandiosity. And there's nothing there that can question it. There's nothing left that can question it. And so the anger that shows up with the criticism is very tough. Now, if she's been absorbed into this mental structure, then she's probably going to mirror a lot of that hostility if he's questioned or criticized in any way.
[48:51] Yeah, she definitely does. Whenever, especially after this incident and every conversation my parents have about him, she gets angry and says that he was the only one there for her when she was sick. And she just makes excuses and gets angry when we say there's something not right here. It's very true. Yeah.
[49:13] Okay.
[49:13] Now, are you guys tentative in, well, there's something not right.
[49:18] Like, tell me what's not not right.
[49:21] You know, like everything is not right.
[49:23] No, we absolutely. My family is in complete agreement that he's a horrible person. And we know, I mean.
[49:30] It's that because when you if you're communicating to her and you say, well, there's something kind of not right. But is there, and I completely understand why, but is there a lot of tiptoeing? Or it's like, okay, I'm going to put out the Venn diagram of the intergalactic awfulness of this character or whatever. Like, I mean, how blunt has everyone been? And I'm not saying you should be, I don't know, because it's a delicate situation. But does she have like the unvarnished truth of your perspectives at some place in her brain?
[49:56] No, she does not. which i've spoken with my parents because she's not i know she's not speaking to me or my younger sister of what i know of because.
[50:07] Later the game right it's been four years yeah so you know it's one thing to stop a snowflake it's
[50:12] Quite another to
[50:13] Stand in front of a giant avalanche right and stop right
[50:17] Right and i've she's talking to my parents and i've asked them i said have you told her everything that he's done like just blatantly told her and they said they did and she just goes with excuses but i don't know how much i believe that just because i wasn't there when they told her so i don't know how delicately they're putting the situation but yeah i know i don't think everyone's been honest and with her with how horrible of a person he.
[50:43] Is okay so let's talk about consequences, right? So if she gets married to this guy, what's going to happen to your relationship with her? Because now he's not going to leave you guys alone much because he's a smart guy, right? He's cunning for sure, right? So he's not going to leave you guys alone. So every time you're with her, you're probably going to be with him or he's going to be around, right?
[51:09] Well, we told her after that night that we never wanted to see him again. So I, and I know for me that if.
[51:20] Wait, so the night after he brought up the wedding cast? Right.
[51:24] Okay, so the whole
[51:24] Family said we will never see him again. Right. Holy crap. That's quite an ultimatum.
[51:33] Well, we told her.
[51:34] I'm not necessarily criticizing it. I'm just saying, like, that's a hell of a stand to take.
[51:40] Well, we told her that she's always welcome in our family and in our home. And we would love to see her, but we don't ever want to see him again. And we told her that if you married him, we will not support it and we will not be at the wedding. So I mean I don't know if my parents have gone back on that but I know that that's that's definitely where I stand in the sense that I know I don't want ever I don't want this individual around me or my family so especially blatantly attacking us and I mean I wouldn't be surprised if he thought something wanted something physical to happen that night so I it's right.
[52:23] Because your perspective is that this was an engineered conflict to separate her from her family right okay so if if she marries him to to a large degree isn't she like dead to the family
[52:37] No so this actually happened with somebody else in our family where they did not get along with one side of the family so we just there was a married they married into the family and they We just never saw them like their kids and them and their spouse always came to family events, but we just never saw them ever again. I would, that's what I think that's what we're assuming would happen if she did marry him. But I think we're just kind of hoping it never gets to that point.
[53:11] Wait, I'm sorry. I'm a little confused because I said she's mostly dead to the family if she marries him. And you said, no, she could be just like the other family member that no one ever talks to.
[53:19] Yeah, I know. I get what you're saying. I mean, yes.
[53:23] No, I don't get what you're saying. She's dead to the family, kind of. No, she's not. She's just like that other person who's dead to the family.
[53:29] I mean, he's dead to our family. But, yeah, I.
[53:34] Oh, come on. She gets married to the guy. She has kids with the guy. I mean, come on. You think you're going to have like, you're going to be some like side relationship that's like.
[53:43] No, no, I get what you're saying. And yeah, I mean, I've thought I've thought about it.
[53:48] And yeah, if she does get married to him, I, I, well, I definitely don't because I don't want him around my like future children or anything like that. So if she decides.
[53:59] So this is guaranteed, this is going to be guaranteed heartbreak being around this guy. Yes.
[54:04] And I, you know, especially children and stuff like that in his past, I don't just know. So, yeah, to me, I, yeah, I guess. I don't know. I think we haven't planned that far because we're just hoping it won't happen.
[54:19] No, you kind of have. This one, that's why I was surprised about the statement. Well, okay, so we did,
[54:24] I think, I think the, yeah, no, I mean, I have, I definitely have.
[54:28] No, no, the whole, look, I'm sorry to be, again, correct me where I'm going astray here,
[54:33] But the whole family has said...
[54:36] He's dead to us. And if you marry him, well, there's the example of the other person in the family, right?
[54:42] Yeah.
[54:43] Where they're basically gone, right? Because look, if she's, would they probably would go live some place fairly far away or what?
[54:54] Well, I think I know what's going to happen because they're just going to move back to where his family's from, which is the place that up north where my sister doesn't like because he.
[55:06] That's so then she's gone yeah yeah because i mean what are you going to say come come down and visit for a week but don't bring your husband yeah
[55:14] No you're you're right i mean.
[55:16] And even even sorry to interrupt but even if you were to see her because you know the thing that that there's i mean there's so much that troubles me about the email not anything to do with what you wrote or what you guys did but just what's troubling, because even if you were to see her, you wouldn't be able to be honest with her. Right? Right. Which means there's no relationship. I mean, there's proximity, words are exchanged, the weather is discussed, but there's no honesty there because you loathe her husband and you can't talk about that.
[55:53] Yeah.
[55:54] So, I mean, you can fake your way from here to eternity, but as far as actual direct honesty goes. Plus, of course, knowing as she does that you don't approve of her husband, she's going to do a hell of a sales job on you about him. So she can't tell the truth. You know, if you say to someone, hey, you know, this is a bad person for you to be with and so on. As long as they stay with that person, they're going to try and sell you on how great they are because they don't want to admit that you've been right and they made a mistake or anything like that often, right? So then you can't be honest with her. She probably won't be honest with you. There's nothing there.
[56:31] So should I be blatant with her, with everything?
[56:36] The reason I'm saying all of this is because the question is, what do you have to lose, Lauren? If she marries this guy, you're going to virtually never see her. When you do see her, you're going to have to self-censor yourself to the point where you're not even going to be a shadow. She's going to try and sell you on how wonderful her life is because she doesn't want to admit that she's wrong so then the question is what do you have to lose by being honest if you're not honest and she marries this guy you lose her right
[57:10] Yeah yeah you're right.
[57:11] It's the old thing like i use this analogy a million times it's probably not the best one but you know if the plane's going into the side of the mountain you might as well jump because if you're saying well i don't want to be honest because I don't want to lose her, I think that's a false positive because you are going to lose her if you're not honest.
[57:34] Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's something I've been struggling with with the last week.
[57:39] Oh, it's horrible. And I'm so sorry that you're in this position. I mean, this is, I'm sorry that your whole damn family's in this position. And, you know, without wanting to, to, to cast any blame or anything like that, you guys left it kind of long here.
[57:54] I, me, my sisters and I were telling my parents from the start, like, we got to do something, but I understand. You were telling your parents.
[58:03] What, like you're 12 and you can't drive yourself? Why would you tell your parents and not take some matters into your own hand if nothing's happening?
[58:10] Yes, you're absolutely right. And I knew you were going to call me on this.
[58:14] Of course, you say it and the inner Stef pops up, right? Like I'm egg counting or something, right? Like the inner Stef pops up and is like, well, I told my parents. And even though I'm an adult, my parents didn't do any right. Okay. And that's because everyone was afraid of alienating her, right? Is that right?
[58:31] Yes, that is correct.
[58:32] Everyone's hoping, gosh, let me see if I can go through the thought process. The thought process is, well, she's kind of oppositional. So if we try and pull her away, it's just going to drive her closer to this guy. So maybe she'll, we'll put little hints here and there. Maybe she'll just wake up one day, break up with him because she sees what kind of guy he is and then we haven't alienated her. So everything's good.
[58:54] Yeah, but we're past that point.
[58:56] So, well, you know, that's a, that's a dice roll. And unfortunately, you came up, you know, double steroid snake eyes, right? So that's, you know, who knows what kind of dice you should roll in life. It's always easy in hindsight, right?
[59:10] Yes, very easy in hindsight.
[59:12] But still, four years, you know, to the point where they're engaged. And you keep saying in your email, oh, Lauren, you keep saying, well, we want to be supportive. And we tell her that we love her and we want to be supportive.
[59:23] Yeah.
[59:23] What does that mean?
[59:25] You want to be supportive?
[59:27] It's just one of these things that women say and i'm not sure anybody knows what it means
[59:33] No you're you're right yeah i and i think trying to quote unquote be supportive has, made her go to him further and not being honest has just made us the situation that just caused this.
[59:49] So well he's yanking her on a rope over a cliff edge and you guys are all like well we don't you know we don't want to be pushy or pulley and we don't want to interfere and you know but we're here if you need us but clearly he's out maneuvered her he's out mastered her or he's mastered her and he's out maneuvered you right right so you know now's the time to grab the rope now's the time to try and pull her
[1:00:13] Back right right.
[1:00:14] Because she's she's gonna marry the guy she's gonna get pregnant with the guy and once he has that kind of power over her well obviously he's gonna make her sign in a prenup, I would imagine, right? So once he has real power over her and he's got her addicted to the high spending lifestyle and he's got her knocked up and there are kids whatever kind of guy he is, you ain't seen nothing yet.
[1:00:36] That terrifies me.
[1:00:38] She's still a free agent. And this is how he's behaving when she can leave him like that, right? How is he going to be behaving when he has much more power over her?
[1:00:50] Yeah. That, yeah. I, oh my gosh.
[1:00:55] That's what I mean. And the other thing too, think of her future kids,
[1:00:58] Right?
[1:00:59] Because if this guy is a victim of child abuse and he is himself abusive and
[1:01:04] It's completely unprocessed.
[1:01:06] I'm no expert, but if I had to put money on the odds being higher that he would molest someone, I would put money on that.
[1:01:13] Yep.
[1:01:14] And you cannot allow kids to be put into that situation.
[1:01:17] Right.
[1:01:18] Because if you find out later that this was the case or there are indications and then you are going to feel like, oh my God. Like, if you don't do everything you can to try and stop this, Then if kids do end up in harm's way, and listen, it might not be molestation of any kind, but it might just be the guy's got roid rage, right?
[1:01:41] Right.
[1:01:42] Or he's a dad who's never there or because you know what's going to happen. This stud muffin's going to go to the gym when she's breastfeeding. He's going to meet some spandex thonged hottie and, you know, like, you know, you know how this stuff plays out, right? He's already flirting with other girls.
[1:01:56] Mm-hmm.
[1:01:57] So, to me, what is the maximum you could do so that you're left with an easy conscience as much as possible if the worst comes to pass? That's always the big question, right? What is the maximum you can do so that if you fail, you don't sit there and say, I should have done more? You know, when it comes for me, like it comes, okay, I've told a lot of really difficult truths to society in this show over the last 15 years, right? And I think it's had some effect. But no matter what, I'm not going to sit there and say, ooh, I really held back on this. I've done the, I believe I've done the maximum that I can do. Now, it doesn't mean there's not more to say. It doesn't mean I may not push on other topics further. But right now, I really genuinely believe I've done the maximum that I can do. So my, like, what, like, let's say things go bad, okay, well, I've certainly done more than just about anybody else. And so it's really just about, because if people suffer and you could have done something to stop it, you suffer too. If people suffer and you did everything you did to stop it, then you're sad about the suffering, but you have no regrets. And that's really what, you know, I don't have any influence over her, but what I really want to do is get you to the place where it's like, okay, I hit the gas right to the floor. Okay, so I didn't
[1:03:21] Win the race,
[1:03:21] But I went the maximum speed. You know what I mean? Like, there was no more place to put the pedal down, so to speak, right? I went the maximum speed because I didn't win the race. But it wasn't like I didn't win the race because I could have gone faster. So what would you do if you wanted to achieve that state of mind where, frankly, if she marries the guy, to hell with her, she had every opportunity to not She's just going to have to learn the hard way. And you have to harden your heart at that point, because otherwise they're going to manipulate the hell out of you, right? So that's where you got to get to. So what could you do to get to that place?
[1:04:02] Well, to be honest, I've already kind of, I haven't been there yet. I haven't told her yet, but I've come up with a plan that, which I've been pushing off. Respect for my family and stuff like that, because they've been telling her, we'll just give her time for the situation.
[1:04:24] Yeah. Four years. it's not helped i don't think 4.1 is going to change it but
[1:04:28] Go on yes no i i agree which which talking to you i feel has confirmed this but that i'm just going to tell her everything that happened that he did and that he said to my family and directly to me and say look this this isn't the guy you think it is like and just blatantly tell her everything because I have a feeling if she doesn't already know but it would make me feel better if she knew everything he said to us everything he's done to us and this is who you're choosing to be with and that's someone I can't ever be with and you know I can never have in my family or ever have around my family situation.
[1:05:14] And if she
[1:05:14] Chooses him after that then i would be like okay then i will be here the minute you leave him but until then i'm not you can't i'm not doing this anymore like i'm not going to be your sister that you can just have call up when you're drunk and talk to about nothing or.
[1:05:32] Have these little text
[1:05:33] Conversations about sending me silly pictures or something like that because this is a serious situation and you're choosing someone who insulted your family. Like, people who are there for you always. So...
[1:05:49] Right. Okay. And this tells me what a very nice young lady you are. So nice. You don't have a devious or sinister bone in your body.
[1:05:59] Thank you.
[1:06:01] Well, that's not necessarily a compliment in this situation.
[1:06:04] I'm taking it as a compliment for right now.
[1:06:06] Okay. Hang on. No, it is. It is. And your boyfriend is very lucky and you're going to have a great life, but I don't think that's going to be enough. Is your boyfriend still there? Yes, he is. Okay. Can he get to the mic?
[1:06:19] Yeah.
[1:06:20] Okay. Can you hear me? Man to man, my friend. Because, listen, you have a lovely young lady, and she sounds very, very nice, and I'm sure that she is.
[1:06:28] No, she's lovely. Good.
[1:06:30] Okay. Now, let's just theorize for a second here. And let's say that we were willing to embrace the dark side. You know, again, all just theoretical, right? Yep. But if we were willing to embrace the dark side to get the truth about this guy and to get the truth about this guy to her sister, what would we do?
[1:06:53] Oh, I mean, I've fantasized about this quite a bit.
[1:06:58] See, this is the difference, right? So I need to talk to you. So go on.
[1:07:02] I mean, the couple of times I've met her parents and interacted with them, they're the nicest people I've ever met. And just hearing him say those things to them. If this was a different time period and I wouldn't get in trouble, I would probably get like a few guys in my family together and go over there and like straighten things out with them.
[1:07:21] If you catch my drift. Listen, but just theorizing here, nobody should do anything illegal. We're all, you know, I really want to be clear about that. And there's lots that you can do other than go into a couple of guys and a strenuous conversation, right? Yeah. What else have you thought about?
[1:07:38] Well, I mean, I could try talking to him myself, man to man. I don't know how much that would get through to him. I don't really know the
[1:07:44] Guy that I love. And what would you say to him if you could say things without consequences, so to speak?
[1:07:50] I mean, I would just tell him that what he did is, and just how he's been acting is very childish and cowardly. And he thinks he's a really big man that's got it all going on. But really deep down, it's very obvious to everyone else that he's still very much,
[1:08:09] You know, a little kid just
[1:08:11] In his behavior and his actions and everything.
[1:08:13] Kind of an insult for little kids. Okay, now why would you have that conversation with them? What would you try to achieve out of that?
[1:08:18] But I guess if anything,
[1:08:21] Just to see if any of this registers with him, you know, if he's just completely detached and
[1:08:27] Psychopathic about it. Right. It won't register with him.
[1:08:31] Yeah.
[1:08:31] So what would the purpose be of the conversation? Because you don't have to change him with that, right? No. Okay. So again, you also seem like a very nice guy. Everybody has a dark side. Yeah. And the dark side is helpful. The dark side is powerful. There's nothing wrong with the dark side.
[1:08:46] Yeah.
[1:08:47] Right. So, again, nothing illegal, nothing violent, nothing like that. Right. Yeah. So if you sat down and you had a provocative conversation with him, what would he do? He would probably blow up.
[1:09:02] Right. Oh, yeah, of course.
[1:09:04] Right. And assuming it's legal, you record that.
[1:09:09] True.
[1:09:09] Yeah.
[1:09:10] And then you take that recording to the sister. Right. Yep. And you play it back to her and you say, this is me trying to talk some sense into your fiance and this is how he reacts and this is what you're going to be living with right yep that's
[1:09:27] Actually a good idea i just obviously there's nothing wrong with recording him in this instance it just kind of seems like a little sneaky to me so that's maybe why i didn't like first come to my mind
[1:09:40] Well you know to have d-day you've got to have spies first, right? Yeah, yeah. All's fair in love and war. Here's another one. Do you know, I've read stories about how women who are concerned that their husbands are unfaithful, do you know what they do?
[1:09:55] No.
[1:09:56] They hire escorts to go and flirt with their husbands to find out what their husbands do, not with the purpose of sleeping with them or anything like that, but just to find out.
[1:10:06] Yeah.
[1:10:07] Now, that's a whole lot cheaper than a divorce, right? Again, assuming all this is legal and someone you could hire someone to go and float with this guy and see what he
[1:10:16] Did yeah okay and they can again
[1:10:19] Assuming that's legal they can record that and they can pass that over right yes yep and then you can sit down with her and say okay this woman went up and floated with your fiance and this is what he did and this is who he is yeah all legal Again, nobody should take this advice as things you should do. I'm just theorizing about things you could do, assuming that they're all legal, right?
[1:10:43] Yeah, yeah. Well, it's helpful to think about these things because, like I said, I mean, didn't even cross my mind, but it's just so simple and obvious now that I'm thinking about it.
[1:10:53] And here's another one. Maybe the drugs that he is taking are not legal.
[1:10:59] That too, yeah.
[1:11:01] Hmm. Interesting. Yes.
[1:11:05] Right?
[1:11:05] And so there's lots of things that you could do if
[1:11:09] We take this
[1:11:10] As a genuine emergency, right?
[1:11:13] Yep.
[1:11:13] Which it seems to me it is.
[1:11:15] Yeah, I definitely see
[1:11:16] It that way. I think her family's got every right to be very afraid of this guy.
[1:11:22] Right. And she could be in a whole world of emotional hurt, could end up with financial hurt. I know that her sister has concerns about physical hurt. and to me again legal non-violent blah blah blah but all's fair in love and war if you have this kind of emergency on your hands you got to start thinking outside the box because this being nice and being supportive and i love you and i'll be here for you if you need me come on yeah that's not that's not going up against this personality structure and succeeding in any way shape or form right yeah yeah
[1:11:56] And as I see it, he's already played dirty, so dirty.
[1:12:00] Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, listen. I mean, my philosophy is you're as nice to people the first time you meet them as you can be. And after that, you treat them as they treat you. You have no obligations for better behavior with this guy.
[1:12:14] That's true. Yeah.
[1:12:16] All right. So, thanks. I like appreciate that, dude. so give me the speech that you would give to your sister about the details of what he's done and what you feel is necessary wow
[1:12:29] Okay let's see okay uh there's a lot off it's not exactly what i would say but i would start off well i guess i don't know how to start like should i just, be direct with her or should i ask her why she's with him.
[1:12:51] Because i'm just no no the speech that you would give her about everything that you've experienced from this guy and what you want her to do oh
[1:13:00] Okay sorry about that so i would tell her that i would explain exactly what he said to our family blatantly what he said to our family and what he said at other events and about our family then i would tell her that if she chooses him then he is never welcome you're that she would get no support from us while she's with him okay.
[1:13:28] Sorry i'm sorry to be an i hate to be an annoying interrupting guy no you're fine so so that those are all the consequences so to speak right but what is it that you think she doesn't know about his behavior and you can be specific and you can say what he said to the family and like what has bothered you most about who he is and what he's done?
[1:13:46] So I would tell her that he directly told your mother who spent two months taking care of you on a single suitcase without a question that she did not. She was pushing you away and she was a bad parent.
[1:14:04] The person you call every day, he told that woman that she was a bad parent to you. She told me when you told me you were sick because that's apparently what everything goes back to she keeps saying that no one was there for her when she was sick that I said I would be there tomorrow if you needed me then she said no don't and then my mom went down that day that day and I asked my mom do I need to be there and she said no but she told me I did not I did not care or love you. And I have helped you out financially. I have always been there for you. I've always loved you.
[1:14:48] And same with all the rest of our family. But this is the man you choose to be with, someone who insults your family, who tells you that the cousins that you have, that you've been friends with for years, that they are horrible people and they disrespect you. This is the man you choose to be with so people who have been there your whole life and have nothing but loved you and you choose the him him who is who treats you like trash who orders you around and you just walk do whatever he wants who you feel the need to be drunk 24 7 with this is the man you want in your life go.
[1:15:30] On the passion is what will get through to her
[1:15:33] I mean who's he's called your family low lives your family no don't.
[1:15:42] Laugh it's too serious for
[1:15:44] That you're trying to save her.
[1:15:46] You're trying to save her soul listen you are trying to get her to not go to hell okay you got to be serious about it i know that you know there's a temptation to lighten it up because this stuff is the third rail, because this is putting everything on the line. But you got to be deadly serious about this. I mean, this is your speech on Calvary Hill. You know, Jesus don't giggle. Okay, so what is it that's scaring you? What is it that you're angry about? What is it you really need to connect to her about?
[1:16:21] If this is the man you choose to be in your life, and this is the way he treats your family, what do you think he's going to do to you and your children? He's only known us, he's barely met us, and he thinks he has the right to tell us off. What is he going to do to you, the person he's going to see every day? Who do you think he's going to take that abuse off of on? Who do you think? What happens when it's not just words and he turns physical? What happens when you have children and he decides to beat them or hurt them or either emotionally or anything? Can you accept that? Can you accept that this is that you are not just choosing for the moment? You are choosing your life, the rest of your life and your future children's lives. And this is who you deem to be a good match for you, to a good father to your children? Do you really disrespect our family that much that you think that this is the man you think you can be with? I don't understand what is going through your head that you think that this is.
[1:17:27] Someone good for you, Who chooses to take
[1:17:32] Drugs to enhance his performance in what? In his day-to-day life? Who spends hours at the gym and ignores you? Who has no intention of doing anything for you? What, he.
[1:17:45] Buys you a few things
[1:17:46] And you think that's good? You think he loves you because he has money? You think that's not what that is? I can tell you that's not what love is in any sense. You know that's not what it is. What about your dogs? The things you love most in this world that you treat like children. What do you think he's going to do? He said he's going to get rid of them if you have children. He said he was going to get you rid of your dogs. You're okay with that? You're just going to go, yeah, that's fine. You're okay with him just treating you like trash? Is that it? You think so low of yourself or is it something else? Because you're so much above this. If you're looking for someone rich to marry there are nicer rich people out there who would marry you i i don't understand i know i'm laughing again i'm sorry i'm sorry this is just a lot i know.
[1:18:46] It's hard as hell to be that serious right it's hard as hell to be that desperate for someone to listen but that's why people listen that's how they'll listen
[1:18:56] Yeah more you connect with.
[1:18:57] Yourself and the more you're serious with her, the more likely she is to listen. And she's going to constantly try and butt you up into mocking yourself or making light of the situation or asking rhetorical questions. Because you want to invite her into a conversation and that's a wonderfully female thing to do. No, it is. And it's beautiful. But, you know, say, how do you think he's going to, you know exactly how he's going to treat her. You're just going to take that. The rhetorical questions, I don't think help in this situation.
[1:19:29] You're right. And when I actually, so.
[1:19:33] We've, I've been
[1:19:34] Writing down a lot of things when going through this, I will definitely come up with more of a fully what I want to touch points I need to touch on and not go with the rhetorical questions.
[1:19:46] Yeah, and practice it. Like, listen, practice it, record it, play it back. I mean, this is the speech of a lifetime. Right. And it literally could be the speech because you you're trying to save her from a kind of devil right right i mean you're christian right right right so this is the soul saving conversation right i mean this will cost her everything yeah which means that if you focus on saving her no matter what no matter what that's a kind of seriousness and calm that will give her the greatest chance of redemption of survival.
[1:20:24] Mm-hmm.
[1:20:25] Because she's been drawn into this web over four years, right?
[1:20:29] Right.
[1:20:30] You need a real laser to get her out. And depending on how powerful you want to go, and again,
[1:20:37] Could say something like,
[1:20:39] If you marry him for his money, that will make you a whore. It will. Yeah. If you hold your nose over his vile personality and marry him for his dollars, you are prostituting yourself on God's altar of marriage. You are taking God's union of man and woman and turning it in with a cheap, bought and paid for transaction, like you're some trinket on eBay. And that's not what marriage is for. Marriage is not to fill your wallet. Marriage is not for you to buy things. Marriage is not for you to look wealthy. Marriage is love. Marriage is love and our response. Love is our response to virtue. He is not a virtuous man. He is an immoral man. He is a liar. He is a cheat. He is an abuser. You don't love him. He sucked you into this universe where he is some sort of deity and you become someone who worships him, that is going to destroy you. It's not like, oh, you're going to have a bad marriage. You will be destroyed as a human being in this not-even-relationship, in this empty-headed and empty-hearted control situation.
[1:21:55] The only thing that
[1:21:57] You really care about is his money. And the Bible and God and Jesus are all very clear about the love of money and what it does to people. And if I were considering marrying a man like this, who had insulted you, who had threatened to take away my dogs or that which I loved the most, who had hid in a room, insulted the family, and driven me to drink, I hope that you would leave no stone unturned to try and save me. If this was a friend of yours, I hoped that you would leave no stone unturned trying to save your friend. But you stand, my sister, on the edge of a chasm. And it's not that you're dumb and it's not that you're bad. We have also failed you as a family by letting you get dragged inch by inch to the edge of this abyss. We should have intervened right away, very strongly, before the rot had got too deep. But as the saying goes, better late than never, we're doing it now. You cannot marry him. If you have a thirst for the status and the money that he brings,
[1:23:12] Is a sin. You know it's a sin. We know it's a sin. It is a sin. And the wages of sin is death. That doesn't mean that you're going to fall off a cliff and die physically, but it's spiritual death. If you take the holy union of marriage and you turn it into a cheap prostitute's transaction for money, you will kill your own capacity for love. And you will wake up with self-contempt a little more each day. But the reason you cannot marry him is that you've already talked about children.
[1:23:42] And marriage is not about you, and it's not about this man. It's about children. You do not have the right to bring children into this destructive, abusive environment. You don't have the right to bring children into a relationship where the man has progressively, and in a hostile and demeaning and degrading manner, alienated you from your own family. Because your children will grow up, not only with a spiritually empty mother and a vainglorious and narcissistic father, but they will grow up far from your family who love you. It's not you, and certainly not your vanity, and certainly not your material greed that chooses your husband. You choose not your husband. You choose the father of your children-to-be.
[1:24:40] Marriage is the expression of the will of your unborn children as to the nature of their father. There is not a child that I can conceive of who would choose this man as the ideal father to raise them. Not about which purse you want to buy. It's not how big a mansion you want to live in. It's not about how big his muscles are. It's not about how tall he is. It's about how good a father he's going to be to your children. And what I find the most incomprehensible is having been raised by the father you were raised by, that you would not notice the difference between this man you are seriously considering being the father of your children, and the father who actually raised you. And the only thing I can imagine is that your lust for status, your lust for material goods, maybe he's great in bed, I don't know, but you cannot make
[1:25:41] Your vagina the foundation of
[1:25:43] Your marriage. It's not about sex. It's about raising children. You don't get the final say on who you marry, neither do I. It's our future children who get the final say, because they're the people we are bringing in to the situation who have no choice in the matter. Because they have no choice in the matter, they have the greatest choice in the environment we're bringing them into. And the greatest and most important choice they have is who we marry. Your children in the future will not care how wealthy you are. They will not care how tall their father is. They won't care if he can lift half a truck in his spare time. They will care as you cared, as I cared growing up. they will care. How loving he is,
[1:26:27] How morally courageous he is,
[1:26:30] How strong he is, how playful he is,
[1:26:32] How willing to
[1:26:33] Sacrifice his pleasures for their happiness, in other words, absorbing their happiness into his own pleasures, he is. Know and I know that your future children would not choose this man to be their father. And therefore, while you can make the choice, we can make any choices we want. That's God's gift, is free will. You can make the choice if you want to go out tomorrow and to kick a dog to death. It's a bad choice. It's a wrong choice. It's an immoral choice, but you can make that choice. In the same way, you can make the choice to marry this man. But I want you. In fact, I need you. To make that choice with not one single illusion about the choice that you're making is a wrong choice. It's an immoral choice. And it's a choice where you will not bear the worst brunt of that disaster. It is your children who will suffer either abuse or neglect or narcissism or divorce or court battles or being dragged out. Or if you sign a prenup and you get dumped out of the marriage with nothing. They will then go from extreme wealth to extreme poverty while you will be extraordinarily stressed. And then you will have to try in the future to find some father substitute for them, which they will not want and would never choose.
[1:27:53] And you do not have the right to make that choice for them, knowing clearly ahead of time how disastrous that choice is going to be. And having been told very clearly, very explicitly, and very powerfully, it's a bad choice. It's a wrong choice. It's an immoral choice. You have no right to make that choice. And now you have no excuse because you know. So that's the kind of stuff that I would say.
[1:28:24] Beautifully put. Thank you.
[1:28:27] And that to me, like the only way to save people from terrible decisions is to remind them that it's not their suffering that's going to occur fundamentally right you know how do you save an addict you save an addict because oh drug addiction is bad well but you say you are going to destroy the lives of everyone
[1:28:44] Around you not just yourself right we
[1:28:47] Can save we we're funny that way we have desire to save others almost more than ourselves and if you remind her that she doesn't have the right to choose this guy as the father of her children she doesn't have that rights like it's not it doesn't exist for her mm-hmm
[1:29:03] Of course, here's the thing too,
[1:29:05] You know, the fact that she, she might completely blow up at that situation, right?
[1:29:08] Because she's probably been, you know, he's probably prepared her, right? For this, oh, your, your family's going to come by and they're going to try and break us up and they're going to try and bad mouth me and they're going to try and do all, like she's probably, like he's a maneuvering guy, he's a chess, chess guy, right? So she may blow up and people do, right? I mean, if you follow me on Twitter, people blowing up at me all the time. And then what happens is six months later, I get an email saying, oh man, I'm really glad you told me that you know it's fine right it's fine that's that's that's the gig right so she may get mad i'm not saying six months but she will think about it right and i assume based on what you've told me that this guy is miles apart from from your dad right and not
[1:29:47] Even on the same.
[1:29:48] Planet i i completely get like opposite world right so but i think the first people to have this discussion with is not her, but your family as a whole.
[1:29:59] And this is like.
[1:30:00] You fly out, you sit down, you take a weekend. There's nothing more important than this, right? Unless you currently have a bear trap on your leg, in which case it's the second most important thing. But this is the kind of situation where, you know, pay any price, bear any burden, get your family together, get everyone on the same page, or fly out to meet her, fly her out to meet you, have it out, plan a weekend, plan a week, whatever it's going to take, right? And, you know, she may refuse to do it and you go to her, right? And then you follow her around, right? You know, I mean, if I'm talking to someone and they get mad and walk out of the room, I just follow them. Now, again, you don't stalk them or you don't sort of, you know, like climb out from under their bed at three o'clock in the morning or something, but, you know, be persistent. Do it until it becomes impossible to do any further, right? I mean, obviously, if she calls the cops, or she threatens to call the cops, or whatever, right? Then you say, okay,
[1:30:57] Well, I'm leaving, right?
[1:30:58] Because she has the right to not talk to you, of course, right? But given that you're family, you have the right to push it right to the edge. Because then... First of all, will be under no illusions about what's going to happen. And you will not have hope for a better outcome, which can actually be very good. It means you get your grieving done ahead of time, which is helpful. But my guess is that, you know, it is remarkable to me how little people do, and I'm not putting you guys in this category because you're calling me and you guys have done a lot. And I really, this is just to the general audience. It's always surprised me how little people do to save each other. Because we all make mistakes. We can all get hoovered into this kind of stuff. It's natural, right? This is the temptation, right? It's all in the Bible again to go back to the source doc, right? But it's always remarkable to me how people say, well, you know, I had one conversation kind of in passing. I said, I didn't think it was a good idea, but it's like, no, no, no, this is someone's life. This is the happiness of future children. This is it. And you got to do everything you can.
[1:32:02] Because if things go to hell later, it could really destroy her. It might cost the family. I mean, I knew a family once. Their son got married to the wrong guy, the wrong woman, sorry. They knew it was the wrong woman, but they didn't say too much about it. And they ended up, she took the two kids. She went to the police. She accused him of abuse. He was investigated. And then for them to try and get a hold of their kids again, or get access to their kids, was going to cost them about $150,000 in legal fees, which they didn't have, and they never see their grandkids. It's terrible.
[1:32:38] Now, going back in time, I wouldn't say this to them because, you know, that's on the other side. It's all about, philosophy's about prevention, not cure, right? But you say, let's say something like that would have happened, right? You sit there, oh my God, $150,000 to even see our grandkids or whatever, right? It's like, okay, well, then isn't that worth a couple of flights now? It's a lot cheaper and he wants her and he's willing to do whatever it takes to get her to keep her The question is, are you guys willing to do whatever it takes to keep her from this disaster? Knowing that you can't kidnap her and you can't do anything illegal and you, right, knowing all of that, right? Are you willing to take a serious stand and not do this, well, we set her peace and crossed her fingers? Because that's not what he's doing.
[1:33:27] Well, I'm ready. So, when I agree.
[1:33:31] I will. Wait, I dare say,
[1:33:33] Have I pumped you up? yes without steroids and everything right, yeah and i and i believe she is coming up soon so i'm i'll have a serious discussion with my family before this happens and make sure that she comes because i think we were going to do more of an intervention type but i you you're very this is very very helpful and i really appreciate it.
[1:34:00] And she does have the blessing and curse of free will so she might tell you all to take a long walk off a short pier but right if you've done everything you can that's the easiest in the long run for everyone involved and you know boy just just give it your shot give it give it your very best shot like leave nothing in reserve because it's such an important issue who you marry is the most important decision you will ever make in your life. You know that, well, you know that. Can I just check in with your boyfriend about what he thinks about what I'm saying?
[1:34:33] Yep.
[1:34:34] Yeah, I'm right here. I mean, yeah, I'd have to agree with all that. I think that they might be able to reach, you know, out to her sister if they remind her of, you know, this isn't just about her, this is about her future children and the rest of the family. I know that her sister's probably, she's getting to the age where she's starting to think about children a lot
[1:34:57] And it's probably
[1:34:58] Kind of getting those baby cravings so i mean i i agree with you there's not really anything to be lost at this point just by laying everything out on the table and being as brutally honest with her as they can and do you know why i'm drawing
[1:35:14] You into this web of intrigue my friend
[1:35:16] Well this is going to end up being my family eventually too so well also because you got you got three
[1:35:22] Sisters a mom yeah the dudes are outnumbered and
[1:35:25] Yeah this this
[1:35:26] Family needs some dudes
[1:35:27] Yeah listen
[1:35:29] Women are wonderful and great fantastic and fantastic at many many things this kind of stuff you need symbols a little bit.
[1:35:40] Yeah.
[1:35:40] Right? So you need to be there for this family if you love, I know you do, right? So you need to be there for this family because in the way that men need advice from women about certain things, which is really important, I think that with her dad and you in the corner, this is a bit of a dude thing, a little bit. Again, maybe it's 51, 49 or whatever, but that could be the edge that changes the equation.
[1:36:07] Okay.
[1:36:08] All right. So I hate to say, oh, man, up, step up. It's such a boring cliche. But, you know, this Morocco band needs a couple of castanets, if you know what I'm saying.
[1:36:18] Yeah, I do. Yeah.
[1:36:19] All right.
[1:36:20] No, I'm definitely here for the long haul, and I'm more than willing to help out in this situation.
[1:36:27] No, see, that's very nice of you. But that's not what I'm saying. I don't want you to help out.
[1:36:33] I need you to be a leader, too. Okay.
[1:36:35] I think the family needs you to be a leader with the dad, right? And maybe the dad, you know, with one guy and four women, maybe he just got a little estrogen washed out, a little like a sandcastle or something at a tide coming in or whatever, right? But no, not help out. You know, step up and take a leadership role in this.
[1:36:52] Okay. Because if you're sitting
[1:36:53] There about thinking about taking some guys to go visit this guy and play around a baseball, then you really are thirsting to step into a leadership role of this, right?
[1:37:02] Yeah. Yeah, I am.
[1:37:04] You, you, as, as a dude, as a guy, you're probably a little bit more constituted to take disapproval and that's going to happen. Right. And, you know, you, you can be a lot more frank in a way, not having grown up in the family, just less complicated. Right. You can be more direct. So that's my, you know, I'm not, obviously I'm not telling anyone to do anything because it's not my job. Right. But if you want to help, which it sounds like you do, I don't think that,
[1:37:33] That Like you need to
[1:37:36] Not a water boy, if that makes sense.
[1:37:39] Yeah. No, I need to step up and take charge and kind of.
[1:37:42] You might need to lead the discussion. You might need to help you or certainly support the dad if he's going to lead the discussion. But, you know, this support, all the estrogen language in the, in the email, like all the support and we love you and we're here for you and we're there for you. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's, that's all well and good. You know, when, when somebody has stubbed their toe and, and needs an ice pack, right? This is not that. This is not that. This is, I think, a bit more in the dude territory. So that would be my suggestion. And I'm sure you can. But I think that would be really helpful.
[1:38:12] Yeah.
[1:38:13] All right. Will you guys let me know how it goes?
[1:38:15] Yeah, of course. We'll definitely let that.
[1:38:17] I just wanted to check on the usefulness of the conversation as we sort of wind it up.
[1:38:22] Oh, yeah. No, I'm good.
[1:38:24] And this has been very, very, very helpful.
[1:38:27] So I really appreciate it.
[1:38:29] I have my fingers crossed.
[1:38:31] Me too.
[1:38:31] I genuinely believe that you can do it. And she'll hate you for six months and then she'll like worship, worship you. And you'll keep me posted,
[1:38:41] Right? And listen, if your
[1:38:42] Sister wants to call in and yell at me, I'm happy to be her punching bag. I got no problem with that. All right. Okay. All right. Keep me posted. All right, guys.
[1:38:49] Thank you.
[1:38:49] Happy new year. Take care.
[1:38:51] Bye.
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