0:07 - Introduction to Moral Empiricism
5:39 - The Nature of Trees and Their Fruits
7:48 - The Fallacy of Intentions vs. Actions
12:04 - Imaginary Causality and Cycles of Abuse
20:34 - The Challenge of Hope and Change
28:17 - Acceptance of No Apologies
32:29 - The Final Verdict: Actions Define Us
In this episode, I delve into a profound exploration of moral empiricism through the lens of Matthew 7:16, "By their fruits, you shall know them." The discussion begins with an analysis of what it means to discern good and evil through observable actions rather than intentions. I emphasize that evildoers often justify their harmful actions by attributing them to external factors or complex narratives, which serve only to obscure the reality of their behavior.
I reflect on common scenarios encountered in call-in shows, where individuals excuse the misconduct of family members by citing their intentions or past traumas. This manipulation of morality complicates the truth that actions speak louder than intentions. I differentiate between the notion of 'evildoer'—someone who consistently harms without remorse—and those who may err but seek to acknowledge their faults and change. The importance of accountability and recognition of one’s own actions is a cornerstone of this conversation.
The metaphor of trees producing fruits serves to illustrate the simplicity of moral judgment. Just as an apple tree can only produce apples, so too can people be assessed by the outcomes of their actions. I argue against the idea that intentions should dilute the evaluation of one’s deeds, asserting that the empirical evidence of someone’s character lies in their consistent output, be it good or evil. This leads to a discussion on the dangers of placing blame on external circumstances, akin to believing a volcano erupts due to displeased deities rather than recognizing its inherent nature.
Furthermore, I address the cyclical nature of abuse and manipulation, emphasizing how perpetrators often use fleeting kindness to regain control over their victims. It’s critical to recognize when someone is engaging in guilt-tripping under the guise of concern, as this can perpetuate a cycle of exploitation and emotional turmoil. I stress that self-justification, particularly among those who abuse, creates a toxic environment where acknowledgment of wrongdoing is stifled by shame and denial.
Throughout the episode, I weave in personal anecdotes and reflections, underscoring the rarity of genuine change in individuals who have evinced repeated harmful behaviors. Character, I argue, remains a robust constant over time; fundamental alterations are exceptional rather than the norm. I caution against the hope that individuals entrenched in wrongdoing might alter their fundamental nature, suggesting that such hopes can lead to profound disappointment.
I conclude the discussion by reiterating the liberating yet painful truth of moral realism: to judge individuals solely by their actions liberates us from manipulative narratives and allows for healthier relationships. Stripping away the illusions we hold about others can be daunting, but it is ultimately essential for fostering authentic connections. By grounding our evaluations in empirical evidence rather than subjective narratives, we safeguard ourselves from emotional exploitation and cultivate clarity in our interactions.
[0:00] Good morning, everybody. Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain. Hope you're doing well. Freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show. Really would appreciate that.
[0:07] Today in Bible verses, we're talking about Matthew 7, 16. By their fruits, you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil. fruit. So, this is very interesting. This is moral empiricism. This is moral empiricism, and this is the bane of evildoers. This gives you irrefutable strength against evildoers.
[0:49] So, when I'm in call-in shows, and people say, oh, my brother, or my mother, or my father did this or that or the other terrible thing. And then they say, but they meant well, they didn't mean it, they had bad childhoods, and so on. That is a form of placing a ghost of morality in the empiricism of what the person has done. And it is a way of maintaining a bond with an evildoer. Now, of course, it's a good question to say, well, what do you mean by evildoer. I mean, we've all done bad things from time to time. Well, sure, sure, of course. But the evildoer is the one who won't admit fault, who does consistently bad things, won't take responsibility, won't apologize, and only surrenders not to conscience and virtue, but to power. So, if you have power over someone, then they might be, quote, nice for a little while.
[1:50] But they will not surrender to internalized standards of conscience or good behavior. This is the angry will that I've sort of talked about before, that I get what I want, damn it, and anybody who's in my way is interfering and must be sort of brushed or cast aside or aggressed against or manipulated or just removed. Removed, right? I mean, when I was working up north, we'd be driving on these logging roads, and occasionally there'd be a log on the road that we'd have to stop the car and we'd have to wrestle the log out of the way so we could keep going. We didn't hate the log, it was just in the way.
[2:28] And the selfish person, the greedy person, the narcissistic person, the evildoer views your will as an impediment to what they want, right? So they want you to come for Christmas. If you have any hesitations or you didn't have a good time the last couple of Christmases or your kids don't want, that's just a terrible inconvenience and you just have to be aggressed against and manipulated, until you damn well do what the other person wants in the same way that we would try rocking or rolling the log to get it off the road when we wanted to continue on our journey. There's an impediment. We need to get that impediment out of the way and that's just the reality of this kind of angry will. I need to get my way. Anybody who interferes with me, getting my way is an obstacle to be overcome by any means necessary. This is sort of the angry animal will. And it would be somewhat honest and direct and not as corrupt if people simply said that, like, you're down well coming for Christmas, and I'm going to do or say whatever I have to do or say in order to get you to come for Christmas, because that's what I want, as opposed to.
[3:37] Well, your father would really miss you if you weren't here, and we've got some lovely presents for you, and I really do need some help with this, that, or the other, and just sort of a good son or good daughter would do this, that, or the other. I tell this claustrophobic and somewhat creepy moral manipulation is kind of what goes on.
[3:58] So, when we look at a tree, and we see in this case, right, there's sort of two examples that are made in Matthew 7, 16. Grapes of thorns, do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
[4:15] And that's true, right? I mean, men don't gather thorns, they gather grapes. And they don't gather thistles, which are sort of sharp, spiky things, but figs, which are tasty, good to eat, good for your digestion as a whole. So... It's saying that the production of evil deeds is not open to the free will of the person, because a tree has no choice about what it produces. If it is an apple tree, it cannot produce pears, or peaches, or I guess figs, or grapes, or anything like that. It is the nature of the apple tree to produce apples. It has no choice. And how do we know what kind of tree it is? Well, we say it's an apple tree because it produces apples. Now, we wouldn't say, well, the apple tree is producing apples, but it really meant to produce pears or figs or peaches. No, it's an apple tree. It produces apples. And it will never not produce apples, or rather, it will stop producing apples only when it's dead, but it will never produce anything other than apples, because it is an apple tree.
[5:39] So when you say it is an apple tree, you are judging the apple tree or the tree by its products, which are apples. That's how you know it's an apple tree. If you think it's an apple tree, but it produces peaches, then it clearly is a peach tree. Sorry, it's a bit repetitive, but it's a really powerful statement when it comes to morals.
[5:57] So you've heard me in call-in shows a million times say to people i don't want the narrative i just want the facts just just give me the facts i don't want the narrative because the narrative is well she meant well she herself had a bad childhood she didn't really mean it and it's it's sort of peering beyond the fact that the tree is producing apples and saying well but the tree didn't mean to produce apples, the tree was confused when it was younger, it was pruned too aggressively, it really means to produce peaches, and I'm sure it will at some point, and this particular Bible verse is saying, no, no, that's not a rational or reasonable approach to the question of a good or evil person. A good person produces good in the world, an evil person produces evil in the world and that's how you know whether they're good or evil and the narrative means nothing if a tree produces apples it's an apple tree, and if someone were to say well it didn't mean to produce apples it actually meant to produce, birds or ipads or peaches or like it didn't mean to it meant it's like no no but it's an apple tree, it's producing apples, and it's not going to produce anything different just because you have a narrative.
[7:23] Now, what's interesting is that the verse does not say that it is a combination of intention and outcome that we judge people by. It is not a combination of intention and outcomes that we judge people by. It is saying that by your fruits, by their fruits, shall you know them.
[7:48] You know them by what they produce. That's what I call moral empiricism. And it's similar to if there's a volcano and the volcano erupts. There's a temptation for the people who live in the shadow of the volcano to manage their anxiety by saying, well, the volcano erupted because we offended the volcano god. Somebody was singing when the volcano erupted. Clearly, the volcano god doesn't like singing, so we'll stop people from singing. And of course, the volcano will erupt again, and then, oh, somebody was humming, oh, somebody was dancing, and then you just end up with this progressive restriction that occurs.
[8:28] So, that is putting a motive into something that is simply a fact. The fact is, the volcano erupted, and this is a dangerous place to live. Now, if you want to keep living near the volcano, for some reason, then you need to create an imaginary motive as to why the volcano erupted so that you can pretend you have control over the volcano erupting. So this is why you'll say, oh well, so-and-so was singing and clearly the volcano god doesn't like the singing or if we sacrifice, five goats or one child to the volcano god, the volcano god will be appeased and therefore we can stay in close proximity to the volcano god.
[9:14] So, creating imaginary causes to physical actions keeps us trapped in the cycle of abuse. I mean, we see this in the sort of typical example of the woman who's being abused by her husband, and he says, oh, you know, you're a terrible wife, because the food was cold. The food was cold that you served me. And she says, oh, well, he yelled at me, or maybe he hit me because the food was cold. And therefore, if I make the food warmer, I'll be fine. But then, of course, it turns out there's just some other thing that occurs that causes the abuse. The abuse is the constant. But you need your victims, if you're an abuser, you need your victims to blame themselves, rather than say, you're just an abuser. Because if they.
[10:06] Which is like, I was singing and the volcano, God doesn't like it, and therefore that's why the volcano erupted. You need to blame yourself so that you have this imaginary control over the negative situation. If a disaster happens, a physical disaster, a flood, a giant fire, a volcano erupting, or something like that, or just that there's no rain for a month or two, you have this terrible anxiety. Now, that terrible, and let's just take the fact that, let's say there's no rain, right? So, if there's no rain, your great temptation will be to imagine that if I do some particular kind of dance, or some particular kind of ritual, the rain gods will be pleased and I will get rain. It's false, right? There's no amount of dancing that's going to produce rain, no amount of ritual that's going to produce rain. Sacrificing goats will not produce rain. So, it keeps you trapped in this cycle of abuse. Imaginary causality traps you in repetitive disaster.
[11:12] So, what you need to do, of course, is move your tribe to a place where there's more rain, or start to set up irrigation. If you start to set up irrigation, then you would have less concern over the rain. And this is what the Boers did in, you know, fairly dry aspects of South Africa and other places. They set up all of this irrigation because rain was uncertain. But if you have imaginary causality, you are trapped in repetitive disasters. If you think that some ritual controls negative outcomes, then you cannot break the cycle of abuse because you will always end up modifying your behavior under the guise of imaginary causality, you will end up modifying your behavior in order to.
[12:04] Try to control that which you cannot control. So putting a ghost of a volcano god into the volcano and trying to appease and manipulate the volcano as if it were an angry god is false. And with regards to this section from Matthew 17, it's saying that the processing of good and evil the processing of good and evil is a passive and empirical process a passive and empirical process in the same way that you look at the fruit that a tree puts out and without any tricks or projections or anything strange that would go on that way you simply say oh oh this is an apple tree because it's producing apples, right? There's a funny bit in Monty Python's Life of Brian. This bush has brought forth juniper berries. It's a miracle. Well, of course, it's brought forth juniper berries. It's a juniper bush. What did you expect? Well, that's what you get.
[13:18] Now, evildoers will say that the cause of their immorality is your behavior. You did something wrong, you know, you kids just won't listen, he just doesn't do the right thing, he's lazy, and therefore I get angry. But if somebody pours forward abuse, name-calling, insults, screeching, hitting, whatever, right? If somebody pours forward abuse, they are an abuser. That's it. You judge them by that which is empirical. And you've probably heard me say over the course of decades of doing call-in shows, you've heard me say to people, I don't want your interpretation or your story, I just want the facts. And I say, the reason for that is that if your interpretation or your story was correct, the problem would already have been solved. So, for instance, if you were to go to a doctor, and you said, I'm sick, and you said, well, it's because I'm lactose intolerant.
[14:28] And so I've cut out lactose, and then the doctor would say, well, did that solve the problem? He said, well, no. Well, then, I guess you can tell me it's not lactose intolerance, because you've already tried cutting out lactose, and the stomach pain still continues. But if you go to the doctor with an ailment and you say, here are all of my thoughts about the ailment, the doctor will most likely say, well, I'm just going to run some tests or something because if you've been living with this ailment for quite some time and you've tried all of these different things, I suppose it's helpful if you've eliminated a bunch of things, but don't tell me these things as if they provide me any information about curing you because whatever things you've tried in dealing with this ailment over the last months or years clearly has not worked, which is why you're in the doctor's office. So, when somebody says to me, well, there's a tree in my backyard that produces apples, and then they say, but, you know, its real secret goal is to produce peaches, and that's what it really wants to do, and, you know, I tried having conversations with the tree to produce peaches, and it seems to listen, but it sort of slips back into producing apples and so on.
[15:45] My general thought is, sorry, hang on, just tell me what fruit is coming out of the tree. Well, apples. Okay, so it's an apple tree. But that's really tough for people, right? or to put it another way if you give up hope that the apple tree can produce something other than apples if you give up hope about that then you are freed from exploitation, right so if you have let's say an abusive mother, and then you give up the hope that she can be anything other than abusive then she loses power over you, the ghost in the machine the god in the volcano, is put there so that you can have hope in a situation where there is no hope.
[16:40] Also, I know from people who've grown up, let's say, with abusive parents, that as children, they had to have hope. They absolutely had to have hope as children. And so, if they continue to have hope as adults, I know, of course, for a simple fact, that this is a continuation of a childhood necessary perspective, or a necessary childhood perspective. You have to have hope, and you have to take ownership yourself of bad outcomes as a child, right? Your father yells at you because you didn't pick up your shoes from the hallway and put them away, and then you say, oh, well, then I'll just pick up my shoes from the hallway and put them away. And then you find that it's something else or some other problem or whatever it is, right?
[17:34] If you say, well, my father yells because he's mean. The apple is produced by the apple tree because it is an apple tree. Now, of course, I understand that people say, well, but human beings are not apples and human beings can change and reform and improve. Well, that's always an interesting question. It is extraordinarily rare. It is extraordinarily rare. Of course, our entire prison system, and the prison system was developed, not obviously it's fairly corrupt now with statism, but the prison system was developed, the ostracism system and so on was developed based upon the fact that people don't change. I mean, you could theoretically say that someone who is a murderer or a rapist could wake up one day and just be, like, really realize how bad he'd been and commit to being a nice guy and so on.
[18:34] And that's a pretty dicey role to make, right? It's a pretty dicey role to make. What are the odds of spontaneous recidivism? Like, becoming a good guy after being a terrible criminal, what are the odds of that? Well, Again, I'm no doctor, but as far as I understand it, some cancers undergo a spontaneous remission. Yet, in general, people will try to treat their cancers. So, what are the odds that somebody who is violent or abusive or destructive as a whole, what are the odds that that person will spontaneously become a nice, warm-hearted, friendly person, well, it is effectively a 0% chance. Now, can you say it's impossible? I mean, it's hard to really understand what the mechanics of that would be. When a certain amount of wrong has been accumulated in the mind, reform becomes functionally impossible All right.
[19:46] So much cruelty has been enacted that empathy has now become impossible. Because to empathize with people in the future would require the absorption of the violence and harm and destruction that have been done in the past. And character is a fairly robust constant over the course of your life. I mean, I remember when I went to a high school reunion, almost by accident really, Many years ago, I saw people down the hallway, they still had the same body language, the same posture, the way of talking, the way of holding themselves. And I, it was very clear that they were who they were back in the past. And everyone said to me, my God, you're the same. You haven't changed and all of that, even though, of course, I'd lost my hair and so on.
[20:35] But that's what people say. Sure. Have people fundamentally changed over the course of your life?
[20:43] Fortunately, I always had an instinct to not do the wrong thing. I mean, I remember when I was in boarding school, I lost a pen and went to the headmaster and he said, oh, we found a pen. It's a really nice gold pen. And I said, that's not mine. And he said, he seemed a bit surprised. Oh, that's very honest of you. And when I was in, I was 12 or 13 working in a hardware store, I was given all the cash to take to the bank because everybody knew that I was very honest about these things I've never really hurt. Anyone I find that kind of repulsive. There was a Joe Haldeman story from a collection many years ago called Study War No More, I think it was Joe Haldeman, about an alien that gave someone empathy to the point where they felt what other people felt, and it was quite crippling and destructive for that person's personality. Hard and harsh. so I managed to avoid doing abusive harm to people over the course of my life. I mean, I stole a few things in my early teens, which obviously was not ideal, but I stopped that fairly quickly.
[21:51] And I just did not accumulate the kind of, quote, bad behavior that would render me immune to my conscience over time. Once you have done a certain amount of evil, you become an evildoer and you cannot recover your conscience. The idea that there's a ghost in the body or the mind that can recover coldness and cruelty and turn it to warmth and empathy is kind of a superstition as a whole. And I certainly occasionally will think about this with sort of cold-hearted people from my youth, they don't, they've never sort of called me up and said, gee, I could have done that a little bit better, or I'm sorry that you went through some, challenges in your reputationally and so on. There's nothing, right? There's nothing. There's nothing.
[22:44] I don't believe that they have changed at all. And there's no evidence that they have, which is good because otherwise I could have spent 30 or 40 years hanging out with people who weren't changing. So if you look at judging people by their actions, then you can no longer be manipulated by claimed intentions. So, if you simply say, well, this is an apple tree because it produces apples. This is an evildoer because he or she produces evil actions. And that way, you get the substrata of immorality, and that way you cannot be manipulated by transitory kindness, right? This is sort of the cycle of abuse where, you know, the husband beats up the wife and then is really apologetic and sorrowful and full of remorse and begs for forgiveness and, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
[23:46] And then the wife gives way and he's so sorry and he'll promise he'll never do it again and it's not her fault and he's got his issues and he'll fix it. And then, you know, once he's got power over her again, then the behavior just, you know, starts getting worse and worse again, all that kind of stuff, right? Everybody, I think, is fairly aware of this kind of stuff. So, with regards to that kind of behavior, if you say, well, this person is an evildoer and the only chance that that evildoer is doing good is in order to lull my defenses so that they can further exploit me again. So when I was in the business world, occasionally people who were kind of corrupt would be less corrupt or even not corrupt, but that's because they wanted some investment or some advantage or to look good for the new owners or bosses or something like that, right? It had nothing to do with any foundational benefits.
[24:51] Commitment to a virtue. I mean, if you've confronted people who've done you wrong, and they've collapsed into self-pitying tears, you know that it's still not about you, right? That they're just doing their own thing for themselves.
[25:08] And it's not about you, it's still all about them. They feel sad, and they just cannot get through to connecting with you with anyone else. Everything is always about themselves. And the other thing too is that if you can surprise them and have them feel bad about things that they've done, then quite quickly, usually within a couple of hours or a day or two at most, their defenses will reorganize themselves and then you will end up being blamed by them for making them feel bad. They might cry a little bit, but then they'll be kind of cold and shocked and horrified and appalled and angry and they'll just go back to that way, right? So, life is a lot simpler. When it comes to evaluating people, just look at the good or bad that they've done. And again, sort of how much bad stuff does it take to make a good person bad? Well, I mean, most people will have food from time to time that is not great for them and not everyone exercises every day, even if it could be beneficial for them to do so. So, it is a difference between people who eat nothing but junk food and never exercise, and people who have an occasional treat and skip a day or two of exercise once in a while. Those things are vastly different.
[26:28] So, the way that I generally judge whether somebody has reformed is, do they, of their own willpower and accord, do they contact me with nothing to gain, and focus on righting the wrongs they've done until I am satisfied with no agenda, preference, or purpose, or need, or requirement of their own? I mean, usually at some point over the course of your life, by the time you get into your 40s or 50s, it will almost certainly have happened at least once, somebody from your past will contact you. Hey, haven't talked to you in a while, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it turns out, turns out that they actually just need something from you. Maybe they've joined some sort of multi-level marketing scheme and they need you to buy something or maybe they're looking for a job or whatever it is, right? So those kinds of situations are quite common. If people from your past are going to contact you who haven't contacted you for a long time, it's usually because they need something. Now, I've not had it, I've not had it, but I can theoretically understand it.
[27:41] You, if there were, if there was someone to whom people in the past would come back and apologize, I mean, I've had calls with people who've been quite negative and hostile towards what I do for years. And I mean, usually it's fine and all that. But so if there were people from my sort of distant past who wanted to reconnect and apologize or whatever, then, you know, they're pretty easy defined, and my moral stances are pretty well known, and so on, right?
[28:11] So, it doesn't happen. You know, it's just an important thing to understand and to accept.
[28:18] It's very liberating, painful, but it's very liberating to just truly accept and understand that you will go to your grave with no apologies from those who've wronged you. They will never get it, they will never understand. They will never develop empathy. They will never see it from your perspective. They will never view themselves with any substantial moral criticisms. They will never apologize. You can go and beg, plead, bully, whatever. You can go with as much reason and clarity as can be mustered by any mortal frame, and you will be unsatisfied. I mean, I talked about this in the show yesterday regarding COVID. People went a little crazy over COVID, right? They really kind of turned on family members and turned on friends. People do it through politics as well.
[29:16] And how many of the people who said you were bad and wrong for questioning the narrative have apologized to you and tried to learn your mindset so that they can do better next time? I mean I asked this I think one person said yes but I wasn't sure whether it was just has apologized but, so they chose the lives of strangers over the truth of family and close friends which indicates their loyalty.
[29:47] Just had a whole example of all of this, right? People turned on critical thinkers and the skeptical and the curious, all things that people say. You know, if you were to say to someone, do you think you should just blindly accept whatever corrupt authorities tell you to accept? They say, well, no. I mean, everybody who's debated it all knows the argument from authority, which is fallacious, which is to say, some important person believes X, therefore X is true. So people fail to their own standards over COVID. I mean, especially those on the left. I remember debating those two communists, calling them the worst-freaking communists around, because they sided with giant multinational corporations over me, kind of a working-class hero. And they also were very keen on getting people to be vaccinated, which is to sort of swallow the falsehoods, or at least some not exactly great or vetted information from giant multinational corporations.
[30:47] Now, have those guys, or anyone, ever contacted me and said, you know, I've really looked into this, and it turns out you were kind of right, and so on? Well, that doesn't happen. So, by their fruit shall ye know them. It's very powerful. It's very liberating. it's very sad you know stripping illusion is a sad sad thing and it is a process that the old self feels is deadly feels like you're gonna die what do I have if not my illusions is the foundational cry of the dying false self but it is true and it is valid and I have seen no compelling examples to the contrary and I certainly, I mean, think of all the things that I've been right about...
[31:41] Past 20 years. Think of all the things I've been right about over the past 20 years that are now being validated not just by economics, but by science and general ethics and empirical data. Think about all the things that I have been right about over the last 20 years, and all of the names I've been called, and how many people who called me names have ever circled back to say, sorry, that was unfair. You were right. Doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. And I would be a giant case study in all of this, right? So anyway, I hope that helps. And it's painful, but a very necessary liberation. You just judge people by what they do. And that's it. It's very simple. Judge people by what they do.
[32:30] We are what we consistently do. And evildoers are judged by the corrupt actions that they take and make. And if you do that, you can be very much free from control and manipulation. However difficult the process that can be, it is well, well worth it. All right, freedomain.com slash donate. Thank you for your support. Lots of love from up here. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
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