In this call-in livestream on 2 December 2025, Stefan Molyneux engages deeply with a variety of themes surrounding morality, personal experiences, and controversial topics in modern parenting and society. Right from the start, Stefan embraces the festive spirit with a shout-out to his upcoming book, **Peaceful Parenting**, encouraging listeners to explore peaceful approaches to child-rearing. He hints at exciting developments, including a Spanish version of the book to reach a broader audience, demonstrating his commitment to nurturing understanding and compassion amongst parents worldwide.
As the episode progresses, Stefan sets the stage for a thought-provoking debate he's scheduled for Friday regarding the acceptability of physical discipline in parenting. His anticipation of the debate is palpable, as he expresses a desire to tackle heavy issues around child discipline for the sake of societal improvement. The conversation soon escalates as a caller illuminates the darker side of parenting—vengeance and justice in response to societal ills like grooming gangs in England. Stefan directs the discussion towards the ethical boundaries surrounding vengeance, pushing for a clear definition while navigating through the emotional complexities that arise from personal circumstances.
Throughout the call, Stefan recounts and reflects on his youth, drawing parallels between modern societal shifts and his experiences with culture and media from the past, including references to *Spinal Tap* and *The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole*. He critiques these cultural artifacts for their underlying negative portrayals of certain demographics, notably white people, provoking thoughts about the implications of such narratives on identity and society. This thread of reflection serves as a backdrop for a broader critique of how perceptions and portrayals have evolved, and how they shape public attitudes today.
A particular highlight comes when the discussion gravitates around the topic of vengeance, spurred by the prior caller's question about when, if ever, it is justified. An impressive philosophical dialogue ensues where Stefan leads the caller through a nuanced exploration of revenge, justice, and the role of societal norms. He challenges the caller to reevaluate concepts of morality while acknowledging personal emotions, ultimately suggesting that justice becomes essential when it's well-defined and proportional—not merely an act of personal retribution.
As the episode unfolds, Stefan also shares intimate anecdotes about his family life, touching on personal losses, his upbringing, and lessons learned through difficult experiences within a complex family structure. The host’s candid nature encourages listeners to reflect on their own lives, interspersing humor amongst serious narratives. His storytelling approach reveals much about human relationships, responsibilities, and the drive for personal growth—all of which resonate strongly in the fabric of familial and societal dynamics.
The conversation doesn't shy away from the darker aspects of society and personal relationships, culminating with another caller recounting harrowing experiences of betrayal and loss. This engaging narrative serves as a poignant reminder of the hidden struggles many face, broadening the scope beyond philosophical debates to real human emotions and bonds. Stefan provides a mix of empathy and insight, navigating through deep waters of regret, responsibility, and the weight of familial legacies.
In conclusion, with his characteristic blend of humor, philosophical inquiry, and personal reflection, Stefan Molyneux leaves listeners contemplating profound questions about justice, morality, and their own relationships. The culmination of personal stories and philosophical anecdotes makes this episode not only a robust debate on vengeance but also an insightful commentary on human behavior and societal norms that persist into our lives today. Listeners are invited to question their own beliefs while finding solace in shared experiences as they gear up for the next live call-in show.
0:08 - Christmas Countdown
11:20 - The Debate on Child Discipline
18:16 - Exploring Vengeance and Justice
49:11 - Personal Stories of Family and Identity
58:12 - Cultural Differences: British vs. Canadian
1:00:48 - All-Boys School Experience
1:02:27 - Vengeance Discussion
1:03:39 - Childhood Trauma
1:07:19 - Loss and Grief
1:12:10 - Relationships and Regrets
1:14:33 - Marriage Reflections
1:18:27 - Long Marriage Struggles
1:23:38 - Navigating Divorce
1:24:23 - Life After Marriage
1:25:35 - Wisdom for the Young
1:27:34 - Family Dynamics
1:33:23 - Health and Aging
1:34:42 - Companionship in Later Life
1:38:10 - Reflections on Parenthood
1:51:31 - Life Lessons and Advice
1:54:39 - Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
[0:00] Hello, hello, hello. It is four o'clock and a slight smidge of change on the
[0:07] second. Oh my gosh, it's Christmas. It's almost just a little over three weeks to Christmas. And I guess early for your Christmas pleasure, peacefulparentingbook.com, peacefulparentingbook.com. You can go and get your print copy of Peaceful Parenting. I hope that you will. We're also working on a shortened version, and who knows, where he may even flamenco and macarras it up and throw out the old Spanish version so that Peaceful Parenting can surf the trees into the hearts of our Spanish friends, our Spanish-speaking friends around the world, and Peaceful Parenting can come to people that way.
[0:47] So, I hope you're doing well. I just also wanted to mention shop.freedomain.com to get your tasty merch, shop.freedomain.com. Be the envy of all the people who grow out in public in peace. So you can get great merch there. And again, peacefulparentingbook.com. A little announcement. It looks like, it looks like I'm going to be doing a debate on Friday. And this will, it will push back, I imagine. Depends how long the debate goes. It's going to be 6 p.m. Eastern Friday, I'm doing a debate on, is it acceptable or necessary or good or right or wrong to hit children? And it is obviously a specky debate, and that should be.
[1:38] I think, interesting and worthwhile. It's been a while. It's been a little while since I have done the old debate, but I'm looking forward to it, and I will enjoy. I will enjoy. It is for the good of the world, for the good of the people, for the good of the children, and I look forward to that enormously. All right. James, if you can feed any questions you get across, it's a little tricky for me to see the stuff that's going on on X, but I certainly would be happy to hear what is on people's minds from over there. You know, it's kind of funny too, like.
[2:20] When you start to see a pattern, you know, you have to be careful you don't see it everywhere, but when you do start to see a pattern, it is actually quite interesting. Two things that I've sort of revisited from my youth. One is the Rob Reiner mockumentary, documentary, rockumentary, if you will, Spinal Tap from 83, something, 82, 83, 84, something like that. And it was a movie that found great, great favor among my friends. I thought it was, you know, good and funny. And some of the outtakes are even funnier. Billy Crystal, Hey, hey, mine is money. Shut up and talk. Shut up and eat. Shut up and eat was the name of his company from his grandmother. But...
[3:08] Looking back on it, it's sort of, of course, kind of anti-white. Because, you know, all the most ridiculous people are white. All the most cool people are non-white. And it's interesting, in the very end, and I sometimes wonder now, I don't want to get overly jumpy, but I sometimes wonder now if that's not sort of the point of the whole movie, is to lure you in for the last bit where Rob Reiner as, oh, what's his name, Marty something or other, marty de burghie that uh he's uh saying that uh you know maybe maybe this music is racist, because you know it's too white and looking at carl sagan back in the day complaining and uh talking about how star wars is just too white and, And then there's a writer in England. Now, if you're not in England or not from England, it didn't translate well across the pond or really anywhere else. But there was a series of books by a woman, Sue Townsend, and the protagonist's name was Adrienne Mole. Adrienne Mole. And the first book was The Secret Diary of Adrienne Mole, age 13 and three quarters.
[4:33] And she is a good comic writer. Sometimes I feel it's a little bit long between jokes, but she is a good comic writer. And just out of curiosity, I sort of revisited that work recently. I didn't read any, but the first one, the only thing I really remembered was, he's a pretentious intellectual, this sort of young man constantly trying to get into his girlfriend's panties and constantly trying to get his rather execrable poems published by the British Broadcasting Corporation and being bullied at school and worrying about his spots, as he calls them. And it's pretty wild to revisit. I mean, I was, I wasn't say long gone. I left England and landed in New York, November the 3rd, 1977. We couldn't fly directly to Toronto from London to take up our new residence in the wild half-planet snowscape of one of the worst winters Canada's ever experienced in 1977. We couldn't fly directly to Toronto because we had no money. We had no money. And so we flew on Freddie Leica. Freddie Leica, he had this really dirt cheap.
[5:51] Potato seat, all of these stewardesses who were wearing sackcloth, and you got maybe one cup of water the whole time. These super cheap flights. So we flew to New York and then took a bus up to Canada. And I very much remember that bus, seeing the snow coming down, wondering if it would ever stop, being very excited in that way, because snow was a very great rarity in England when I was growing up. It was very hard to get snow. We had it maybe once or twice and it kind of vanished very quickly.
[6:24] And listening to, I had a little cassette player and the handle was broken, but it could record. And I used it to record various plays that I wrote when I was a little kid. And I had one tape of music. And I still remember, I remember the sequence of songs still all these many years later. There was a Leo Sayer song. Leo Sayer, he had a bunch of dancers on a TV, which I taped using this record player. And I was able to listen to this. I remember the dancers had these hand imprints on their dancing costumes. And, you know, he was, you've got a cute way of walking. You've got the better of me to snap your fingers. And I'm talking like a dog hanging on a lead or something like that. You make me feel like dancing. I'm going to dance the night away. And there was that. And when you need love. So Leo Sayer was a big entertainer. There was a song, a long, calm, lonely, like James. Jones, Jones, sorry. And there was a bunch of songs that I listened to. I remember taping, oh gosh, Killer Queen from Top of the Pops and being rather baffled by Freddie Mercury's black nail polish and decidedly poncy, as they called it back then, Poncey attitude. And.
[7:49] I remember my friends being very, very much into, I mean, my brother was really into Monty Python and I got more into it, although I much preferred Fawlty Towers. My friends very much got into Spinal Tap and sort of in hindsight.
[8:08] In hindsight, it was very sort of contemptuous of white culture, white people. It sort of focuses on the lowest and trashy and dumbest elements of white culture, sort of the white trash culture. And in Sue Townsend's book, which was set about five years after I left England, it's really political. And it's certainly, what is it? It's anti-white for sure, because the white people all behave badly and the immigrants all behave well. There's a remarkable amount of communism and communist thought that shows up the youth leaders are communist the old guys kind of come but the old guy's kind of communist and what is the uh the upper middle class twoffelberger named pamela that he dates which is a very improbable relationship, but kind of funny. But she wants nothing more than to take on the white man's burden, I guess the white upper middle class twit girl's burden after she graduates from high school she wants to go. After graduates from uni, graduates from university, she is going to.
[9:23] Go to africa and dig wells for the poor blacks in africa and it's just it's wild just how far back all of this stuff goes that in the 70s with star wars the 80s just this anti-white stuff and, pro-foreigner stuff like the outgroup preference stuff that we see it's just wild how common it is and how common it was, and for how long all of this stuff has been sort of brewing along. All right, let us take a caller, Richard. Yes, sir, I hear rumbles and clicks and burps and beeps. Hello. You might need to unmute.
[10:10] Hello.
[10:11] Yes. Hello.
[10:12] Hi. Sorry about that. I was busy trying to get the thing set up.
[10:17] And eat. I have occasionally snacked in a show that's gone very long, so I'm not going to complain too much, but go ahead.
[10:23] Okay. So, um, I'm, I'm very, very, uh very interested and supportive of your your whole project it's very profound um, i have left a few kind of comments uh on discord and i believe we've spoken briefly before um, well i don't get briefly.
[10:50] I i don't.
[10:51] Do briefly the.
[10:53] Only briefs i have are holding my nuts in place. So anyway, but go on.
[10:58] Very nice. Very good.
[10:58] There you go. There's your image to start the convo with. It can't get worse than that. So we've no way to go.
[11:05] Very much so. So I wonder...
[11:21] I wonder too. Are you still with us?
[11:23] Sorry, for some reason, Rumble stopped working for me there. I have a question about vengeance and when, if, it is ever acceptable, given the fact that so many horrors are performed, or not performed, but are perpetrated. Especially in England. I'll just use this as an example. It's just an example, but the grooming gang thing or the rape gang thing and how the police and the politicians sort of turn a blind eye to this, allowing it to happen. How can we expect.
[12:20] You know all right brother i'm gonna need you i'm gonna need you to i'm gonna need you to take a deep breath and get your thoughts out i mean let if you want to start with something less volatile i'm fine with that but it can't be like i can't have pauses to drive a truck through over the course of hearing the question so uh okay let's start with something that's probably a little less stressful or tense particularly if you're in england so no i'm not in england Oh, okay. Okay, good.
[12:49] I'm in Ontario, not that far from you, perhaps. I don't know where about you. I'm in southwestern Ontario.
[12:55] All right.
[12:57] Kind of 40 minutes away from the Lake Huron.
[13:01] Okay, so vengeance. So the first thing we need to do, of course, and I'm happy to discuss the topic. It's a very interesting one. So the very first thing we need to do, of course, since this is ye olde show about philosophy, is to define our terms.
[13:15] Yeah, sure.
[13:16] So what do you mean by vengeance?
[13:18] Well, I guess it, you know, vengeance/revenge. And when is, when are those, when, when is revenge or vengeance?
[13:28] No, no, not when, what, if, no, no, no, we try, we got to define it. So when I did, when I say define it, I mean, we have to define what vengeance is, not when it might be appropriate because we don't know what it is as yet. So what is vengeance?
[13:44] Um, I, I would say if you want.
[13:48] I just, you know, we just have to have agreed upon.
[13:50] Yeah, I don't have a dictionary in front of me. Um, well, we live in a, we live in a society. We, you know, we're in this country, you know, essentially we live under British common law as the legal system. And so in those cases, when, when this, when the legal system is operating correctly, there is no, no necessary, no need. Revenge or vengeance because you know the role of the.
[14:20] Legal system bro okay fourth time what is it don't tell me whether it's needed or not if the legal i still don't know what it is i can throw out a couple of definitions of mine if you like and you can see we can see if we can agree on them, does that does that seem like a worthwhile approach yeah.
[14:40] I'm back.
[14:41] Okay.
[14:41] For some reason, it keeps kicking me out. I don't know why.
[14:44] Yeah, I don't know why either. Okay, so do you mind if I put forward a definition or two, and we can do that back and forth and see if that works. Okay. Cool. All right. So, revenge is when you commit an act of violence or destruction or harm against someone not in the heat of self-defense.
[15:05] Right.
[15:06] Does that make sense?
[15:07] Yes.
[15:08] Okay. And so revenge would be, you know, so-and-so beat me up a week ago. Now that I'm healed, I'm going to go and push him down the stairs.
[15:23] Yes.
[15:23] Okay. So that would be revenge or vengeance, if that makes sense. It's punishing someone back for a wrong that they have done you, because otherwise it would just be assault or something like that.
[15:38] Yeah, sure.
[15:39] And so, of course, if you've ever grown up with siblings, particularly brothers, there's quite a lot of vengeance plots that go on for either real or imagined slides. So it's harming someone, and it doesn't have to be. Like, you can have vengeance that is not violent. Can we agree that that could be included in the term?
[16:02] Yes.
[16:03] Okay, so vengeance would be if somebody... Causes some harm to you financially by lying about you, then if the opportunity arises, you can lie about them back and get your revenge.
[16:19] Yes. Okay.
[16:20] So it is punishing someone for an act of aggression against you, but not in the heat of self-defense. So if some guy runs at you with an ax and you, I don't know, in England, And I don't know, curse him out with harsh words and then hope that the Barbies will take time off from policing social media to come and save you from an actual physical danger and probably wait in vain. But if you use violence and self-defense in the moment, we wouldn't call that vengeance, right? And, you know, revenge is a dish best served cold and so on, right?
[16:53] Yeah, yeah.
[16:54] Okay, so that's the act. Now, whether it's formalized in law or not is important, but not essential in terms of, because if we say that, let's say I beat you up, and then what you do is you call the cops a week. You call the cops that night or the next day, but you call the cops after you're not in a position of immediate self-defense. Does that make sense?
[17:25] Yep.
[17:26] Right. So then you call the cops and you say, hey, Stef beat me up and here's the pictures or whatever it is. And then the cops come and talk to me and I'm an idiot. So I talked to the cops, right?
[17:39] Yep.
[17:40] And then I say, yeah, yeah. But he looked at me funny, man. And then he said I was bald. And then if the cops balled he'd be like yeah fair play fair play off you go it's a reward so, So then the cops will arrest me, and if I'm convicted, they'll put me in jail for, I don't know, a month or two or whatever they would do for first-time assault. So is that revenge, or is that vengeance?
[18:16] Neither, I would say. I mean, if the cops get involved, then I would say that's not really revenge.
[18:28] You would put that as punishment?
[18:31] Yeah, of some sort, you know.
[18:32] Okay. So punishment is a larger category and revenge is a subset of that category.
[18:40] Yep.
[18:40] Is that fair?
[18:42] Yes.
[18:42] Now, let us say that there's, let's use a non-spicy country at the moment, let's say, Albania. I always go back to Scott Adams. It's not a fictional company, right? So let's say you read a story in Albania that a man rapes a child. His mother cannot get him punished through the legal system because maybe he's, you know, a famous politician's brother or whatever it is, right? She just can't get satisfaction, right? And then she goes and beats him up.
[19:21] Okay.
[19:22] Okay. And you read that. And let's say that it's on video, like it's not doubted, you know, like it will take the sort of, because we can deal with the question of unjust revenge. But how would you feel? And let's just start with feelings because morality is an instinct we've got to process that stuff doesn't mean we prove anything but so you read that this woman sally went and broke the kneecaps of the guy who raped her son even though she'd gone to the cops and there was video proof of it and they had done nothing how would you feel.
[19:54] Yeah, I would feel that her actions are justified.
[19:58] Okay. Would you say that her actions were good?
[20:04] Hmm.
[20:06] Justified, because it's an interesting question there. It's an interesting question. And, you know, we're aware of all, and the delicacy of this is simply from a matter of sort of social, and we're just talking about the moral side of things, not sort of the socially practical side of things. Would you feel like the guy who got his kneecaps broken or you know maybe she threw acid in his groin so that he could never rape another child i don't know what whatever you know horrifying thing that that occurred would she if she could not get justice from the courts, yeah would her private revenge not just be justifiable and but which would show you what you would not want her to go to jail is that right, yeah so if she fled to i guess southwestern ontario uh from her from elbonia right if she fled to to southwestern ontario and would you want the government to send her back.
[21:07] No.
[21:08] Yeah, I think we can say, I think my perspective, and this is not to say that this is sort of right or true, but my perspective would be, I'm really sorry that it came to that, but I get it.
[21:20] Yeah.
[21:21] Right. I mean, I don't know if you're a father, you don't have to say, but you know, people who harm your children. And again, we're assuming that there's proof, right? Yeah okay so revenge is not the cops particularly or exclusively or sorry punishment as opposed to vengeance it is because it it a third party can do it right either rightly or wrongly so if in elbonia the guy who raped this woman's child she got her brother to break his kneecaps i think we'd still say i get it yeah i'm sorry for the whole situation but i get it, and 100 yeah so so and what we would do i think is we would look at that as a failure of albonia's justice system not of the woman herself so whether it's the in the woman herself her brother, or the police, I don't think is foundational to whether it's justified or not, or maybe even good, for revenge or vengeance to be enacted upon a wrongdoer. Does that make sense?
[22:37] Yeah. I mean, like the way I'm thinking about this is, you know, what we, what we call civilization, by necessity, has a legal system.
[22:50] I think.
[22:51] I think that's sort of like a-
[22:52] I agree with you there. Yeah. I don't want private vengeance, you know, sort of a warlord style or mafia style or something like that, for sure.
[23:02] Yeah, right. And within civilization, there is an agreed upon um value of accountability right that goes across the whole thing so it's not like selective accountability is everyone has to be accountable right for their own actions, once that breaks down well.
[23:23] Hang on i mean that's that's that's a challenge because you have to differentiate whether it's people inside the protection.
[23:30] Of political power or.
[23:32] Outside the protection of political power. So, for instance, in America, they started a war in Iraq, which was a lie, killing half a million people and genetically destroying entire populations through the use of depleted uranium weapons, particularly around Fallujah. It's pretty ghastly. And those people, nobody went to jail. I mean, that should be execution stuff.
[23:59] Yeah, 100%.
[24:00] But nobody, I mean, again, assuming it was proved and all of that, but nobody. So the thing is, we say, well, everyone has to be held accountable. Of course, the big problem in all systems is who watches the watcher. Ah, I've created a big giant entity to ensure justice. It's like, OK, well, who ensures justice on the big giant entity? Well, no one. So it's just going to get corrupt. So I don't want to derail our conversation. But when you say everyone, I agree with you. And that's why I'm not a statist, because there is no logical way that you can. Create an entity to police, an infinitely powerful entity like, the state. So it's going to get corrupted and it's going to turn against its citizens. It's going to be populated by enemies and so on, which is not exactly unknown in the world at the moment, to put it mildly. So, and sorry, I don't mean to derail. I just wanted to sort of put that caveat in there, but I agree with you. Yeah. So we want institutions that are going to, depersonalize justice, but the question is why? And I agree with you, but the question is why do we want that.
[25:02] Well it has to be depersonalized um because the same rules have to apply to everyone, so you have to take the personal part of it out of the equation and then just have, uh the same rules applied equally across the board so and.
[25:31] How does depersonalizing it do that i again let's just go follow your argument and how does depersonalizing it achieve that, because it's still people doing it right.
[25:41] No yeah of course yeah well i mean i you know like back Back in the day, the statue, you know, the female statue with a, you know, the weighing was blindfolded, right? That was, no, I think that's changed.
[26:00] I said the female statue with a weighing was blindfolded. I'm like, I'm not sure. I want to see your sticky law books, but okay, with the weighing, right? So yeah, the female justice weighing the scales, she's supposed to be blindfolded. But that's the big question. It's a human institution, right? So, I think certainly the general idea behind government or this sort of institution is that, first of all, you want it to be proven. Because if it's not proven, what happens? If someone thinks, I beat you up, but I didn't, then they'll come beat me up, and then I'll go beat them up, and then my brothers would go. Without it being proven, it just tends to escalate and ricochet back and forth, like the Hatfields and the McCoys, which is like a multi-decade war of violence between two Southern clans, right? So, you need it for it to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to avoid or at least reduce the possibility of escalation. And you also want a third party that is so strong that you cannot take vengeance against it without losing.
[27:14] Right.
[27:15] Oh, and I think also just for your rumble, I think you just have to keep the screensaver. I just have to move the mouse over now and then keep the screensaver on.
[27:24] Yeah, I don't have a screensaver on my computer.
[27:25] Yeah, so if I go beat you up and your brothers think, oh, I'm going to go beat Stef up, but if they're in the wrong, and then they will get arrested by the government, and if they get arrested by the government, their cousins can't go beat up the government because the government is too big and too strong. So you need an overwhelming show of force in order to prevent the kind of clan-based escalations of hair-trigger response to violence and, you know, go get them, you know, lynchings and these kinds of things. Does that sort of make sense?
[28:04] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That makes perfect sense. When we have a functional... For some reason, Rumble keeps kicking me out. I don't know what's going on here. I'm really sorry for the- No.
[28:20] No, it's not your fault. Don't sweat it. Don't worry about it. I mean, technical stuff is something we all wrestle with, and it's certainly not your fault. So I apologize on behalf of Rumble, but yeah, keep going. We'll figure it out.
[28:30] Okay. So yeah, I mean, that makes sense, provided on the assumption that we have a functional justice system.
[28:40] Sure, sure. No, I think we have to accept that. But that's why it's sort of the general idea. So revenge is the retaliation to a wrong. Justice is when it is proven and proportional, I think. And proportional is a magic word that I get that, but it is actually defined in law, some sort of proportional response. Like if you walk up and slap me, I can't gun you down, right? Because that's a proportionate response. So vengeance is the idea to punish people who've done wrong. And justice and punishment is the act of retaliation in whatever form could be verbal, could be violent or whatever it is, right? And justice is when it is both proven and the response is proportional. In other words, you don't. And of course, in the UK, I don't know how much of this is propaganda, but I certainly see these kinds of reports of, you know, some immigrant rapes a kid and gets off with community service. And then someone who's complaining about it.
[29:43] Goes to jail. Like, I mean, so that's not proportional to these things. Or, you know, to talk about the sort of rape gangs in the UK, well, those people who are convicted of being in these rape gangs and of raping the little girls, and sometimes boys, they go to jail, but the people who invited them in and covered it up do not.
[30:11] Yeah.
[30:11] Right. And arguably, the latter is a more egregious thing.
[30:16] Issue morally than the former, right? I mean, if you, so, so I would say that vengeance is the desire to harm people back for the harm they've done you outside of immediate self-defense. And justice is when it is that the punishment or the revenge, so to speak, is both proven and proportional to the offense. In other words, if you steal a hundred dollars from a store, Or maybe you pay them back $500 plus legal costs. So, you know, something to punish you, but you don't necessarily go to jail. But if you murder someone, especially premeditated, you're probably going to be taken out of society for a couple of decades at least.
[30:57] So I think vengeance is a very healthy emotion. To strike back is essential. And this is, of course, where Christianity and I are somewhat at odds. I think turn the other cheek requires. It's so anti-natural and I would argue anti-moral and anti-healthy a turn the other cheek is so anti who we are that you can only get people to buy into it by bribing them with an eternity of perfect bliss as their reward I mean so I think I myself have enacted vengeance a number of times over the course of my life and it has felt good to do it and i have don't think i've ever had a regret where it's been proven because i try to be pretty careful to be right about these things but yeah you know and i was it's all right go ahead yeah.
[31:50] I was yeah like when i asked a question i was making that assumption i'm not trying to i'm not trying to like ask questions about all about the edge case stuff i was just trying to be like clear about like you know this actually happened you know this actually happened as well and make make the assumption that it's proven and all that kind of stuff.
[32:07] Well and that's another reason why we need an external impartial third party, because the person who's had wrong done to them is going to be very vocal in saying bob over there beat me up bob on the other hand is going to be incredibly vocal that it never happened, he was in china at the time and yeah he's left-handed and you know whatever you know these silly things that happen in in these kinds of dramas and so because you have two people incredibly invested in their side you need an impartial third party and this is why the jury system was developed of course you need people who don't have a stake in the matter.
[32:49] Like you couldn't fill the jury with the brothers or sisters or family members of one or the other party because then you get a oj verdict right so so the whole idea is that you need to get people who can dispassionately look at the evidence, weigh the probabilities, and then on the balance of those probabilities, assuming you have a 95 plus percent certainty rate that's proof beyond a reasonable doubt, then you can... Uh, put, uh, put people in jail who need to be there. And because the institution is so powerful, there's almost, almost never going to be a kind of escalating blowback because the government is so, so big and strong. So I think vengeance is a, is a very good thing. It's a very healthy thing. Vengeance is like the immune system of society that punishes those who are doing wrong. Right and it's right it's good it's healthy it maintains social order if you if you it's sort of like the idea that if you have uh legal gun ownership in a country and then you force everyone, without guns in the house to post a sign saying we don't have any guns in this house who are the who are the robbers going to target right right i mean you can see that when open carry became more normalized in the u.s that crime rates went down enormously oh.
[34:13] Yeah big time yeah.
[34:14] So of course yeah so so vengeance is is healthy vengeance is right vengeance is good but it has to be proven and it has to be proportional and the reason why we want third parties to handle the punishment is because you know when our dungeon is up when our ire is high sorry getting all dickensian here but when we're in a high state of emotional excitation when you're in your full fight or flight anger revenge like you're likely to not get it right yep and if you don't get it right you've gone from a victim to a perpetrator right you know like uh and and it can be as as it sounds silly but of course these things can happen that i i didn't know he had an identical twin.
[34:58] Yeah, of course.
[34:59] That's the guy, right? He doesn't have the scar. He doesn't have that. Oh, no. Right. So you can. So you really want to make sure you get it right. But when you get it right and you punish in a proportion of manner after it being proven, that's justice. And that's good and right and healthy because people should, of course, want to not harm others because they're virtuous. But we know that there's a lot of people who either enjoy or get off on or prefer to harm others. And they need to be under threat or fear of punishment or blowback, which is why, of course, when you want to destabilize a society, as is currently happening in many places in the West at the moment, when you want to destabilize a society, what do you do? Well, you turn all the criminals out of prison, or at least a lot of them. You turn a lot of the crazy people out of the asylums and close them down and put them in the community. And then... You legalize drugs, and then you ban self-defense and punish people for defending themselves. And then vengeance or blowback is impossible, and the evil and the crazy takeover society. So, sorry, long speech, but let me know what you think.
[36:08] No, I mean, to me, I look at the creation or the invention or whatever you want to call it of English common law as an amazing accomplishment. I mean really really an amazing accomplishment right and it's in it's um yeah creating that, and and we've you know and that's and that you know it's lasted for a while but it feel to me it feels like things are kind of the you know the wheels are falling off at this point i don't know well.
[36:43] They're not falling off they're being actively.
[36:45] Disassembled but go ahead yeah yeah Yeah, for sure. So, outside of that, this is where this sort of idea came from. Like, what do you do when, you know, what do you turn to when the very thing that you relied upon and believed in is, you know, like you say, getting...
[37:08] Yeah, that which you have elected to protect you is now harming you.
[37:12] Getting functionally destroyed.
[37:14] So, I don't know. Well, let's get to that in a sec, but let's go back to, sorry to yank the control of the convo around, but because I find it fascinating. So when I look at the development of English law, I look at this almost genetically at the moment. You know, it could be right, it could be wrong, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. And this is true for everyone. Feel free to join the conversation. So I think of Hamlet. I did a show many years ago on Hamlet talking about Hamlet doesn't, he doesn't have proof.
[37:45] Yep.
[37:46] Right? About Claudius killing his father, right? He doesn't have proof. And he leaves when he's about to kill Claudius, and then, oh my gosh, I'm sending him straight to heaven. He leaves before Claudius says, oh, my prayers haven't worked and so on. And he doesn't have proof. And so Hamlet versus Claudius is civilization versus barbarism, because Claudius wants something. He wants the kingship, and he wants his brother's wife, so he just kills his brother.
[38:18] Okay, right.
[38:19] And Hamlet doesn't know if the ghost is sent to him by God or by the devil, or it's just a product of his own fevered imagination.
[38:29] Okay.
[38:30] And so, Hamlet, he's so indecisive. It's like, good. Good, he should be. Because we know as the audience, but Hamlet doesn't. Or at least we suspect very strongly, especially after the scene with the play within the play. But we want that kind of uncertainty so all the people who were hair trigger like how did common law developed and everyone thinks well it's an intellectual idea or maybe you don't but a lot of people think well people had a good idea and they convinced other that's not how you know how ideas develop it's the last freaking man standing yeah right like because everyone who was hair trigger and went out and all slaughtered each other yeah yeah they all killed each other and And all the people who were hesitant and, I don't know, we kind of got to be sure. All the people who were not psycho hotheaded, you know, DHEA laced testosterone monsters were like, I don't know, it's like the gay monsters. I don't know what it is, right? But all the people who were like, whoa, hang on, whoa, you know, this is escalating too much. And like all the people who hung back. I don't know if you ever, I did this sometimes when I would be in school or daycare. If some brawl would...
[39:47] Break out i didn't get involved no me neither well you neither right because you're like and you know part of part of me wanted to go in and wait in and you know kick ass and take names or whatever it is right but another part of me was like oh i must protect my brain i've got delicate cheekbones i don't know what it was right or you know but but this caution because i don't know who's right and who's wrong i you know what's the point uh and so on right so the people who were more cautious, who were more conservative, who wanted proof, all the other people had to kill each other before common law was even a possibility because almost nobody gets convinced. I mean, we see this online, right? Almost nobody gets convinced. But what happens is the idiots wipe each other out and then the cautious people, having seen all of that, can look at each other and say, okay, well, we don't want that, right? That we don't want because that was horrible so how about we try this um you know the few of the testosterone monsters who were like they're like yeah okay i don't i don't know if i can go through that again because i lost an arm or whatever it is right yep so.
[40:59] And that's one of the big differences, sort of the British common law system, all of the primitive, like, because people say, and they're right to say, right? Like, you know, Rome was building aqueducts and the British were running around with blue on their skin and, you know, slaughtering each other like a bunch of feral animals. And it's like, yeah, can't disagree with that. And they still live on as the soccer hooligans. But but but the amount of advancement that can happen when the idiots all wipe each other out or leave australia and and then you can build something more reasonable with the immediate evidence of how bad it is right yeah so uh the development of common law you can't talk about people in the middle of a blood flute and say i think we should have a jury system but i think there should be rules of evidence. I think there should be chains of custody. Sorry, I don't mean to... I'm totally mocking the argument with my little Lord Fauntleroy voice, but you can't, in the middle of a blood feud, say, but wait, we haven't had a chance to cross-examine our accusers, you know, this kind of stuff. I mean, all the people who can't read, well, we need 4,000 pages of... Of course, it wasn't that way back in the day. Common law is pretty simple, right? It's like, don't use force and keep your promises. But...
[42:13] Having like the people who were left standing after the blood fuse washed back and forth can actually start to get something sensible going and then the system takes on a life of its own so the system of common law is born out of everybody slaughtering each other with these retarded blood feuds yeah and then because you get the system in place from everybody who was more cautious and stood back during the general blood-soaked melee brawl. People like you and I, I dare say. I dare say. Sorry, people like you. I have to use that voice again. But what we do is then we set up a system, and now people like you and I are rewarded, and the impulsive people are punished. And you let that go on for 500 years, and you have an entirely different genetic base to your society.
[43:05] Okay, that's a good point.
[43:06] Right? I mean, in England, they killed 1% of the population every year for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And that changes the entire genetic population. Trajectory and nature of the population as a whole, which is why prior to sort of this mass human movement stuff of the modern era, you had very distinctive character, in each country, in each culture. And so the blood-soaked, impulsive people, the violent people, the hair-triggered people, they kill each other off. The smarter people with more restraint develop a system and then that system rewards the people.
[43:59] With restraint and punishes the people who are impulsive and that's and and this is why you know this diversity stuff just doesn't work because there's cultures that have gone through that process the cultures that haven't and each culture has gone through it to different degrees and so on and this is why you can't just you know hey we'll all live together and it'll be like we're just a bunch of bipeds and it's like no no that's because it's it's a significant genetic disparities after significant like after many centuries even a millennia or two of a punishment because i remember um when i was a kid i maybe you had the same experience but when i hated breaking the rules, yeah and that's the british way right i remember lining up i was lining up to get some tickets for a concert way back in the day. And I was lining up with a girl I was dating and I thought we were lining up, but it turns out that this was just a break in the lineup.
[44:53] Because to let people go sort of past and there was a british man behind me and he says well that's a bit much and i was like oh no what have i done i've i've i've broken the rules you know you know like that old thing it's an old joke now like how do you get 500 canadians out of a swimming pool you say hey would you mind getting out of the swimming pool okay so you know the spontaneous lineups and and like why are why are people in europe so particularly in particularly in england why are they so particularly terrified of social disapproval and public speaking because public speaking is when you're accused of a crime that's going to get you said to get boxed by freaking kangaroos in australia for the rest of your natural born existence, and so and and i've noticed this in my own daughter you know raised peacefully and so on but she's like a rules-based person and it's not like we don't have any rules but you know i've never punished her and i remember when there was somebody who wasn't my wife and i in authority over her for whatever some coaching thing or whatever right she was like very deferential and and and it was like it sort of woke me up to this fact yeah and did you have the same sort of thing like oh no i can't and this is why what i do is so tough at times because i'm not a rule breaker i don't like to break rules but the rules are bad so that's the challenge sorry go ahead.
[46:16] Yeah yeah i mean i grew up in the south of england um and i don't i i had a, it was two epochs to my childhood essentially right there was a kind of early, right up to the age of say eight and then everything sort of changed but anyway that's that's a different story but one of the things.
[46:38] Oh come on give me a hint give me well don't be my parents my parents got show me a little leg sorry go ahead.
[46:45] Yeah my parents got divorced so when i was, you know, I was my dad's sort of apple in his eye kind of thing, right? You know, my early part. And then, um, and I had a sister, my mother was already pregnant with this, with her daughter, with, you know, with, with my sister, when my father married her. And then I was the official firstborn of his. And then my brother came along four years later. And um um yeah i had an amazing childhood up until like about eight years old i guess or something like that and then um you know when you're a child you clearly don't really know what's going on around you that much right you know you have a sovereign idea but you don't really know how the adult world works so when my parents when things started go south between my parents, And then everything kind of shifted. And then that was sort of like the second epoch of my childhood, I guess, where I had to wake up in a hurry, I suppose, into adulthood. And there's a lot.
[47:54] Do you know why your parents got divorced?
[47:58] Yeah. My dad got married very shortly. My dad, I discovered this about my father kind of years later, but not many years later, but when I became a sort of a teenager, I suppose. He was very vain. And he left my mom to get married again, essentially. I think he, yeah, when I look at the, you know.
[48:30] Oh, he got like a hot young thing? thing yeah okay so so your mother was fading out and and uh i don't know she was quite.
[48:37] She was a beautiful looking woman when in a way anyway i don't know exactly the reason why.
[48:41] Okay the relationship fairly quickly is that right.
[48:45] Yeah oh yeah very quick.
[48:46] Was he having an affair do you think before he got divorced sorry was he having an affair with the woman he got married to before he got divorce?
[48:54] Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
[48:55] Okay.
[48:57] Anyway, so then we live with my mom and then she decided, oh, she's had enough of Andrew and myself. You know, I guess I would.
[49:12] Oh, he got rumbled. Hang on. We'll just wait for him to come back. Nay, what is this? It's almost like a silence commercial comes on during your favorite part of the movie. I think that's him, right? Yeah, I'm still running. I'm still running. We just wait for him to come back. I'm sure he will be back with us momentarily. Regularly scheduled stuff. But yeah, the haplogroups, you know, it's worth looking into, just looking at the various haplogroups. And of course, we know that all aspects of personality are influenced by genetics. And, you know, the fact that British people, you know, what's it in A Fish Called Wanda? It's like, oh, we're so terrified of getting things wrong or being embarrassed or, you know, how's your wife? Oh, she died last week and dying, like all of this conformity stuff that goes on in England and, oh, the British people are so uptight and, you know, this sort of Kevin Kline versus John Cleese character in A Fish Called Wonder.
[50:13] And all of that is entirely natural when you've had, you know, say a thousand years of destroying the most violent among you. Then the only people who survive that intense culling process, the only people who survive that are the people who are conformist and compliant and don't want to break the rules. And England has set itself up kind of really nicely in a lot, at least sort of in the past when I was growing up. England set itself up kind of in a very interesting fashion. I don't think he's, I think he's gone, but hopefully he'll be back. But England set itself up. And again, if you want a free domain, sorry, fdrurl.com/livecall, fdrurl.com/livecall if you want to join. But England set itself up in a really interesting fashion, in that England had a massive amount of conformity and an interesting tolerance for eccentricity. You know, they say eccentricity is madness plus a million quid, but... England had two, there's really two classes in England as a whole. I know that there's, I'm not talking about economic classes, but sort of classes of thinking.
[51:41] And I think he's back. So there's sort of these two classes. So England says you got to be really, really conformist. But if you're eccentric, you're tolerated. And that's why England had both stability and progress. Right. So if you look at something like the sort of Chinese empire for 6,000 years, they didn't progress. Way too much conformity. Right. So one of the reasons why the British won against China, and so the opium wars and so on, was because the British had ships and China had taken the guy who'd figured out ships and killed him and his family and burned and buried all of the plans because they didn't like the progress. And another reason why the british who was sailing up i talk about this in my documentary on hong kong which you should check out freedomain.com/documentaries but if you look at a system like china way too conformist no eccentricity allowed and people were so terrified of displeasing the emperor they wouldn't even tell him how well the british were doing in the battles and that's why they ended up losing so england says look we got to have rigid social rules but eccentricity is not punished. It's okay to be that odd guy, you know, down in the shed, puttering around with his Bunsen burner and various chemicals.
[52:58] And eccentricity in the British, and this is why Britain ruled, because it had very strong social rules, but it also did not punish eccentrics in the way that, say, China did or other cultures that really stagnated. So, sorry, I was just giving you some theory while you were while you were rebooting or something but uh so you were just talking about how um your father uh had this sort of um second second marriage and so on and that there was some suspicion that there was a an affair beforehand you sort of the before and after so is that when you came from went from england to canada.
[53:33] Um, no, I'd already come to, well, I came to Canada in 81. Um, my mother, like I said, my mother had already moved here and she left us behind. And then I realized that, you know, the last thing I want to, uh, do is stay in the house with my dad. And my, so she, my brother reached out to her. He was, like I said, four years younger. So he, she could claim him as a, as a dependent um by this time i was too old for that and um so i kind of just basically went, got out of the house as fast as i can i went into the military and um and then later i came to canada like when i was 23 but the story i wanted to tell you was about my dad was in 2007 like he said like i say he's throwing this huge wedding for his daughter from his second marriage and then, say a year before that i'd reached out to him asking for you know so desperate asking if he could loan me a thousand bucks no no i wasn't even asking him to give me it and he said oh sorry rich i can't do that right now blah blah blah and then i show up in.
[54:49] You know, in England for this wedding and then sitting in the backyard with him and my brother's there and my friend's there. And he goes, oh, Rich, what kind of watch you got there, Rich? And I said, oh, that's a piece of, you know, Japanese, whatever, you know, it's a cheap watch. And he goes, oh, see this? And he flashes his gold Rolex in my face. And I was just like, what the hell? What's going on? You said you couldn't afford to help me out. And now you're flashing your Rolex watch in my face. And it kind of flooded back just how vain he was, right? You know, and.
[55:28] I'm sorry, I lost track. My apologies. I lost track of who was who in the story. Was it your father who asked you for the thousand or?
[55:34] No, I asked.
[55:35] Oh, you asked your father. And then he was the one who had the gold Rolex. Sorry. I thought your brother was in there somewhere.
[55:40] I asked him if he could help me out because I was going through a really rough, rough patch. And, um, and he says, no, he basically said no. Oh, and then later... Go of andrew and i go over there for this wedding and then you know i i couldn't wait to get back out of there because it was just so disgusting the whole thing was kind of gross and quite i'm british.
[56:06] As well because not flashing your wealth about is also quite essential and another.
[56:11] Reason why.
[56:11] England was able to do well because if you're in a flashy wealth culture then it tends to provoke a lot of resentment and a lot of robbery and and all of that so even hiding your wealth is a wise seem to do if you want sort of more social uh.
[56:26] Stability yeah 100 like you know i mean i grew up we weren't super low class but we weren't i guess we're sort of low middle class i guess or something like that i don't know and um yeah yeah you know the british way is, restraint you know like you know you wouldn't be you didn't want to get known as a braggart or anything like that you would you know understatement was a big deal over there you know like i grew up like that like you know where everything is very understated, and um yeah i like that i still like that i mean that was that formed i suppose sort of somewhat of my british sense of humor and well.
[57:11] But the british sense of humor certainly post monty python and this is true of a lot of the subversive comics of this of the 60s british humor was relentlessly anti-british.
[57:21] Yeah yeah but there's a beauty to that right i mean there's some no i'm not i'm just saying there's i get i get what you're saying post post uh monty python right yeah things have kind of gone sideways in that respect but um, i don't know like um this has kind of gotten off topic with what i initially asked um oh.
[57:43] No this This was me dragging you off into the story.
[57:46] Because I was.
[57:47] Talking about the British experience versus the Canadian experience. Is a lot of people who, for a variety of reasons, didn't like the rigidity of the British structure. And some of them, of course, were desperately fleeing lack of opportunities.
[58:05] And the British class structure is very rigid, which pluses and minuses and so on. But as I said before, when I first came to Canada, when I first came to Toronto in grade six, and at the very first recess.
[58:24] All the canadian boys i still remember the name of the guy who was leading this but the canadian boys were all chasing the girls down and punching them in the groin what like no no i'm not kidding i'm not i remember this i still remember the girl lying on her back while the guy was like.
[58:41] Punching her in the groin and this was this was their play no i'm not kidding great no way bloody hell and i i had a friend and we sort of retreated from this lord of the flies mayhem and we would sort of walk around talking about life you know rather than participate in this absolute maelstrom of chaos wow and yeah i remember the same boy later was uh talking to a girl and he just started took a he took a magic marker and just started like randomly drawing on her face and it was just like like that is incredible it really was wild i took over his paper later on because i needed money but anyway that's a whole other uh details that don't not necessary but that was incomprehensible in england not just in the boarding school that i went to which was obviously pretty tough but um that's t-o-f-f although it also was kind of tough as well but but that was incomprehensible there because it was sex segregated which actually in hindsight was very good for me because it gave me some access to male authority that i didn't certainly get in the matriarchal manners of the single mother cluster hell of places where i lived but yes but yeah even in the even in the regular schools it would never have happened i'm sorry go ahead yeah like.
[59:55] So annoying with this bloody computer. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, my secondary school or high school, whatever you call it, was all boys. I really appreciated that actually because, yeah, like brains-wise, girls are a couple of years ahead of us in terms of brain development and everything else. I feel like it was a better experience. For me, at least, anyway, to be an all-boys school because, you know, you're around other boys and, you know, you don't, I don't know, I think it was healthier for certain.
[1:00:38] Oh, yeah, I think for sure because depending on when the hormones hit,
[1:00:43] it's, you know, becomes increasingly impossible to concentrate with the girls around. And so, I mean, and certainly the studies seem to be pretty clear that same-sex schools result in better opportunities for both boys and girls. And so, yeah, I just, I remember sort of thinking and being introduced to the Monty Python stuff and it's all, you know, very contemptuous towards... The British, I mean, even Fawlty Towers and so on. I think that John Cleese has been quite a negative, subversive, and he's just turned into a usual liberal NPC in his old age and all of that. And this sort of subversion, this sort of gleeful bashing of all of the institutions that comes out of leftist subversion was very much a part of his. I mean, I get that comedy is supposed to show people it's worse than they are, and tragedy is supposed to show them it's better than they are, and so on. But it's never evenly applied. As I was talking about in Sue Townsend's book on Adrian Mole, that, again, the immigrants are all wonderful, and the native-borns are all ridiculous and foolish, and even in Fawlty Towers, right? I remember this one scene where he's in hospital with his, I think he's got his head bump or something like that.
[1:01:57] Yeah.
[1:01:57] And you know this brilliant calm reasonable black doctor comes in and he recoils and and he's a fool and it's just that it's so one-sided and and i think that subversion has been happening for quite a long time and i think it has become very uh demoralizing for people as a whole and i think he made a lot of money doing some, uh pretty bad things comedy is particularly subversive because it's tough to fight what you're laughing at.
[1:02:25] Yeah that's a good point.
[1:02:27] All right is there anything else that we would be helpful to talk about in the realm of vengeance do you think we did a reasonable job at least i mean that's not like in one conversation we can do the whole thing justice but i think we took a pretty good first run at it.
[1:02:41] Yeah i think so i thank you and i really really appreciate your time and i'm very very sorry about i know you.
[1:02:48] No no no you don't apologize for rumble um before you go and if you have a second or two staff but yeah yeah before you go and it's totally optional you can you can't can you give me uh i had mentioned about my sort of vengeance stuff which i've talked about in the show before do you have a vengeance story that would be inspiring to our friends who might be a little bit more reticent about uh punching back i.
[1:03:17] Oh boy um, not really um i mean when i was a kid maybe or a young man.
[1:03:36] I didn't restrict it by time so.
[1:03:40] No i know um not really i mean, I've always been, one of my first sort of really horrific experiences as a child, I was 14. I was about 14 years old as a secondary school, maybe two. I was at school, and like I said, it was all boys' school, and there's a crowd of other 13-year-old boys, like, crowded around this fence. And I went over there to find out what they're doing, and they were, like, torturing a hedgehog. So that really kind of revealed, I was so repelled by it, repulsed by that, because I just couldn't understand. I'd never really, i'd never experienced um this has got nothing to with vengeance so i don't even know why i'm what were.
[1:04:40] They doing to the hedgehog.
[1:04:41] Torturing it.
[1:04:43] I know i understand that i heard the word but what were they poking it with sticks or.
[1:04:46] Yeah trying to really beat it and they were laughing they were laughing their heads off you know this thing is you know i don't know if it's making any noises squealing or some kind of thing but i just thought that was like really i was so um, Um, I was just so horrified by that, actually.
[1:05:06] Oh, that is appalling. And that very much goes against British nature.
[1:05:10] Yeah.
[1:05:10] And because, I'm sorry, just for those of you who don't know, I'm sure you do, but England, of course, was one of the primary reasons why we had the, really the primary reason why we had the agricultural revolution. And so British people have evolved to have a peculiar tenderness towards animals, which is why it's the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, because we literally rely upon animals to survive like we can't make it.
[1:05:32] Without them so.
[1:05:33] Cruelty to animals is is.
[1:05:35] Very counter.
[1:05:36] Um counter-cultural so to speak.
[1:05:38] Yeah um that was you know that was kind of one of my very that experience you know is etched into my into my, And, um, I don't know. I, I think that's why I love, I love to watch snooker. Okay. I used to play a little bit with my brother before he died. And, um, I'm sorry.
[1:06:03] That's billiards. Uh, sorry, sorry about your brother. What the heck happened there?
[1:06:08] Oh, uh, he died quite suddenly, uh, back in 2012, right around this time, actually. Um, I knew there was something, I knew he was sick in some way. He was, he was an artist. He painted beautiful paintings. He lived a bit of a life of, um, austerity, uh, yeah, bohemian of excess. Well, bohemian. Yeah. But he was kind of, I had to sort of take care of him a lot of the time, which I loved him and everything. and then he died suddenly and then that's i went back to him i don't know exactly what, uh he was all bloated his whole body was sort of blow i took him to the hospital, and um i was so relieved actually because he was he was kind of somewhat refused to go and then i took him to the hospital and um yeah they they admitted him and um at that point i was so relieved because I thought, oh, thank goodness, you know, it'd be okay.
[1:07:19] And then I stayed with him until they kicked me out. And then next, next morning I went back, bought him some books and stuff and, um, went on to see him and they saw what.
[1:07:29] Was wrong with him.
[1:07:32] Well, and then, I was waiting to see him and then the doctors said, oh, we're just going to do, we're just going to see him for a few minutes and then you can come in. The next thing I know, the alarm thing goes off, right? You know, um, code blue stuff.
[1:07:50] Yeah.
[1:07:50] Yeah. And I go running down the corridor thinking, oh God, I hope this is not him. And sure enough it was, and they were trying to resuscitate him couldn't resuscitate him and uh and then he died and um yeah so yeah and i spoke well i spoke to the you know i spoke to the the doctor there and he said he was they think he was you know riddled with cancer and had a bunch of stuff's going on right so yeah that was pretty, no i'm not laughing because it's funny it's just like it's it's it's horrific it's just yeah it actually completely completely devastated me at the time like you know i'm sorry.
[1:08:39] Obviously i'm no doctor but i'm it's a it's a bit of a shocking i mean it's a shocking because he was young but it's a shocking story to think that he.
[1:08:48] Got to the hospital and.
[1:08:49] He turned 50.
[1:08:50] Yeah okay so.
[1:08:51] He got to the hospital and died the next day of cancer because cancer is usually i mean pretty.
[1:08:57] Pretty slow progression no he didn't die of cancer that what happened was they were trying to drain, um because he was like his stomach was completely blown it up it was full of fluid right he was his whole body was like what are they there's a word to describe that um state anyway and then And he had a pulmonary embolism, and that's what killed him. And yeah, so anyway, yeah, and then, oh God, this is a terrible, another real betrayal happened off my mother, who.
[1:09:42] Oh, I think.
[1:09:43] He's worshipped him.
[1:09:44] Go ahead.
[1:09:45] Yeah, my mother, I'll try this again. My mother kind of worshipped him and sort of saw me as just like a reincarnation of my dad, I guess. After the funeral, she says to me, oh, there's a, Andrew left a letter basically accusing me of abandoning him. And no, I'm the older one, right? Yeah, but she sort of basically, and where she actually had abandoned us, you know, funny enough, like when she left England and dumped us on my dad's doorstep.
[1:10:35] Oh, it's not uncommon for siblings to blame each other for the actions of the parents because it's safer, right?
[1:10:40] You know, She, uh, says she had this letter that he'd written, accusing me of abandoning, blaming me for abandoning him and everything else. I saw, God, really like, let me read it. And she said, no, we burned it.
[1:10:59] Oh God. Oh, but it was to you.
[1:11:01] Yeah.
[1:11:03] Huh. Well, I mean, you said that your mother worshiped him. I mean, how close was your mother to him that he was riddled with cancer and bloated and dying and she did, did she not know? Did she not intervene?
[1:11:15] No.
[1:11:17] Right oh that's that's nasty that's nasty to to tell you there was this if you're going to burn the letter then shut the hell up about it and if you're not going to burn the letter then show it right yeah.
[1:11:28] Exactly i thought i thought yeah that was that was that was um.
[1:11:32] That's a bit much in it a.
[1:11:35] Little bit much.
[1:11:36] Yeah yeah i'm sorry about that because no i mean it's all seriousness that that's extremely vicious because it allows your imagination to complete the tale of your brother which is probably going to be much harsher.
[1:11:46] Yeah.
[1:11:48] So he made a living from art?
[1:11:51] Yeah.
[1:11:52] Wow, that's not easy.
[1:11:53] No, he was, well, he, you know, but he was a brilliant artist. I mean, some of the portraits he did are just remarkable. And I've got a bunch of his oil paintings hanging up.
[1:12:07] Was he married?
[1:12:09] No, he wasn't married.
[1:12:10] Okay.
[1:12:11] No.
[1:12:11] Okay.
[1:12:12] He was a bachelor.
[1:12:14] I get what not married means I do understand the definition And do you know why he never married?
[1:12:32] I think what happened was when we lived with my dad in England, he became quite the recluse.
[1:12:43] Sorry, your brother did.
[1:12:44] Yeah.
[1:12:45] Okay.
[1:12:47] Then when he came to Canada, he brought his dog with him. Then they were living in Toronto. I guess because of the dog, they had to move out. They moved to just outside of Barry. where they rented a house. He did have a couple of girlfriends that didn't go so well, Yeah. So he just sort of became a kind of a, sort of an artist kind of guy. And, uh, yeah. And I, you know, in the meantime, you know, I was getting on with my own life, so.
[1:13:30] Right, right.
[1:13:33] There's a lot of, there's a lot of mishmash here, isn't there?
[1:13:36] No, no, I, I'm, I'm always curious about people's lives and the patterns, uh, that go on. And did you end up getting married? Yeah.
[1:13:47] I did.
[1:13:48] Um, that's, that's, there's a lot of, a lot of emotion compressed into that one little syllable. I did.
[1:13:56] I got married to, I think I was, I got married when I was, um, 23, 24, um, to a Canadian girl. Um, I stayed married. We had, we didn't have any children. Um, I kind of, over the next few years after we got married, I kind of quickly realized that I'd made a mistake because I was essentially just sort of taking care of her, right?
[1:14:31] I don't know what that means. Was she ill?
[1:14:33] No, she wasn't ill at all. Um, just in a, she was very very um kind of in conditioned by her parents that you know they were very they were extremely um not i'm not going to say conservative but.
[1:15:16] Now I just must know. I'm dying to know if it's the end of his line or not. So I need to know how this story ends. There we go. We're back. Sorry. You said that she was immature?
[1:15:25] Yeah, immature and negative. You know, whereas I was sort of very positive.
[1:15:29] And how pretty was she?
[1:15:31] Yeah, well, she was good looking. Yeah.
[1:15:32] Yeah. So did you trade up? Like, was she higher than you in terms of the sort of one to ten scale?
[1:15:41] I don't know where to put myself on a scale.
[1:15:43] Oh, all that British modesty. Oh, how could I possibly evaluate myself? What, what, what?
[1:15:50] No, because, I mean.
[1:15:50] There must have been some reason why you were willing to accept an immature, as Kevin Samuels would say, an immature woman. She must have made up for it in some manner, right?
[1:16:00] Yeah, yeah. I mean, she was, yeah, we had a, we decided not to have children.
[1:16:07] We decided. So you both decided. Oh this is torture.
[1:16:14] But i guess i made that sorry go ahead yeah i made that decision sort of based on, um i guess i didn't have i just didn't trust the thing we're going to work out well if we had children because i felt like she was already like wouldn't be responsible enough to take on that well she wasn't mature enough to take on that kind of responsibility so i put it off oh Oh.
[1:16:38] So you didn't have children because she would be a bad mom?
[1:16:42] I guess so, yeah.
[1:16:43] Sorry, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
[1:16:45] No. Yeah, I didn't trust her to be capable of the responsibility of children.
[1:16:55] Ah, okay. So you gave up children, and did she work? Did you have to pay for her? It's a fascinating relationship because it seems kind of one-sided.
[1:17:06] Well, she worked, yeah. She got a job in the bank. I was always able to find work, and then eventually I ended up at a car manufacturing, facility in Canada here, and I was making really good money. There was one point when I was working two jobs, two full-time jobs, because I wanted to take her, I wanted to get her a car, because I was sick of driving her everywhere, so I had to teach her how to drive. So i taught her how to drive then we got a car for her and when.
[1:17:49] You met her was she wearing any kind of special helmet was she riding.
[1:17:53] On the short, no she.
[1:17:57] Had trouble completing sentences.
[1:17:58] Did she sleep in.
[1:18:00] A kind of crib with like bars on the side or.
[1:18:02] No there's nothing like that.
[1:18:05] Okay so i just i just wanted to verify where we were like what sort of what was our baseline here.
[1:18:09] No no she wasn't stupid or anything like that all.
[1:18:12] Right just immature.
[1:18:13] Yeah just immature and extremely fearful well the marriage went on much longer than i wanted it to yeah 23 you said.
[1:18:23] 23 24 right.
[1:18:24] That's how i was yeah yeah so how.
[1:18:27] Long did it go on for.
[1:18:28] It went on for um it went on for 15 years oh my gosh well hang on let me tell you the story oh my.
[1:18:40] Gosh is this the end of your line like you and your brother had no kids.
[1:18:45] Yeah oh no so yeah so i was gonna leave her and yeah i didn't want to just kind of like abandon it and then her mother got sick with cancer and i thought oh i can't i can't do it right now i'm gonna have to wait a little while it's two years, that would be cruel and then two years later after that a mother died, Got sick herself, and I kind of knew that.
[1:19:22] Sorry, you just cut out there for a sec. So after your mother-in-law died, your wife got sick.
[1:19:28] Yeah, a couple of years later, she got sick herself.
[1:19:31] Oh, it was a couple of years. That was your escape window.
[1:19:33] Well, I know I missed that.
[1:19:35] But why?
[1:19:37] Well, because I was kind of timing it to kind of allow her to get over her mother's death. And then she got sick and then she you know she she had cancer right and, i thought okay well i can't fucking leave now excuse my french you know i just thought i can't do that i'm gonna have to stick around for a little bit and so i stuck around for another five years wait so and.
[1:20:04] Did she did she die of cancer or.
[1:20:06] No she's she's she's still alive she's in remission okay and uh so then i finally did but by that time i sort of screwed myself because, family court kind of thing when folk you know oh.
[1:20:23] You'd made some good money and she wasn't making as much.
[1:20:25] Well i was making you know they told me that i'm gonna have to she's gonna have to be support you know we had no kids right and she wasn't invalided or anything like that she had a full-time job but i was told that oh no i'm gonna have to keep her in make payments to keep her in a certain level of the style to.
[1:20:41] Which she has become accustomed.
[1:20:43] Yeah exactly wow so yeah exactly that and.
[1:20:47] Did she and she wanted that.
[1:20:48] Yeah well she's yeah she thought she was entitled to that right so she went for it and so.
[1:20:54] Was she like a feminist.
[1:20:56] Yeah i guess so yeah and anyway so i got really you know screwed and.
[1:21:03] You have to pay like for the rest of your life, even though you didn't have kids, right?
[1:21:07] Yeah, well, I finally got that resolved, but I had to pay her for like, it went on for like five years or so.
[1:21:14] Okay.
[1:21:16] And yeah, when I did leave her, I said, okay, look, you can have the house, you have all the contents. I literally left with just my clothes.
[1:21:25] Sorry, but why did you tell her she could have all of this stuff?
[1:21:28] Because I felt bad for her, right? I know. What a lunatic.
[1:21:32] You felt bad for her and then she took you to the fucking cleaners.
[1:21:35] Yeah, I know.
[1:21:36] Exactly. Oh, that British whitey compassion stuff. Oh, it's brutal. I know. It's ridiculous. It's so fantastic with the right people and so fucking catastrophic with the wrong people.
[1:21:49] So I walked away with- But did you talk to a lawyer first? Yeah, I did.
[1:21:53] And he said, yeah, yeah, give her the keys to the house. That's the way to go.
[1:21:59] I talked to a lawyer that was in the same office as the lawyer she was using. And he said, don't find yourself a lawyer. I don't, you know, I can't really help you out. I'm living, I'm working in the same office.
[1:22:11] Okay. So your lawyer, the lawyer you consulted said, whatever you do, don't make a decision without talking to a lawyer. And what did you do?
[1:22:18] Yeah. I just said, I don't need a lawyer. I'm just going to sign it. I didn't, I, I, I was under the impression.
[1:22:23] Sign what?
[1:22:24] Sign this separation agreement.
[1:22:26] No wait you you did a separation agreement with 15 years marriage without talking to a lawyer, yeah okay did you have it were you currently wearing a helmet were you on the short bus were you sleeping in a crib with bars on the side yeah possibly um, how long ago was this wasn't that long ago right 15 years 23 i'm doing the math here but oh no it was quite a while right yeah.
[1:22:53] So i yeah and it's i you know i walked away with all the debt that we had essentially she had to have.
[1:23:00] Holy crap i.
[1:23:04] I think i walked away with like 40.
[1:23:08] 40 bullet holes in your gonads sorry i'm just i'm just going to finish the sentences now at a passive-aggressive spite to rumble sorry go ahead.
[1:23:19] Bloody hell this bloody computer i don't know what's going on here.
[1:23:21] No it's not you it's it's uh we've got an issue with i think there is an issue we've we've talked about it with rumble i think they're working on it oh yeah okay so so you walked away with what 40k in debt and you gave her a house yeah.
[1:23:33] I left the house all the belongings and oh we just bought a brand new car for
[1:23:36] her um so i took that on as well yeah.
[1:23:39] And then after all of that she came after you for support, What is your advice to men who are wanting to leave a woman?
[1:23:52] Say that again?
[1:23:53] What is your advice to men who might be contemplating leaving in your situation?
[1:24:02] Get a lawyer.
[1:24:03] Thank you. I don't want to be the one to say it because I can't give legal advice. But your words, not mine, are to get a lawyer. And in fact, anytime you touch the law, you should get a lawyer because it's much more fun to give money to a lawyer than to your ex. Okay. All right.
[1:24:23] And that's all resolved. Now, did you ever get remarried?
[1:24:26] No, never did.
[1:24:30] And you in your late 50s, 60s, 60s now?
[1:24:34] I'll be 67 this coming Sunday.
[1:24:36] No, no, you can't say that around young people. They'll start juggling their tits like nothing else. Okay. All right so how is your are you retired how is your life at the moment because you know there's there's always a big question you know for people who who are younger right we sort of extract some wisdom from our uh hoary spotted behinds but there's also sort of question for for young people it's like okay so you didn't have kids you're not married do you date or or what do you do for companionship or anything like that?
[1:25:06] Yep. Um, I honestly, I don't think I'm the right person to hand out advice.
[1:25:18] No, you can give negative advice. Like you can be the smoker guy who says don't smoke.
[1:25:24] So, um.
[1:25:36] If I had any advice, I would just say, when you're young, ask your parents lots of questions and insist on answers. That makes sense. I can remember children are there to be seen and not heard and all this kind of stuff, right? You know, I kind of grew up in that environment. And yeah, I insist if you were, if you were like, you know, say you're 10 years old or something like that or whatever, you ask your parents questions about life and insist upon rational answers. If they're, you know, because it's hard to, it's hard to correct, like by the, you know, all the stuff that happens to my family and all the subsequent stuff that happened, you know, things that could have gone much differently if I had had parents who actually gave a shit about, um, you know, giving advice at the very least to their children about life and how to make it.
[1:27:00] And what do you wish your parents had told you about your life?
[1:27:07] It would have been nice if they could have explained why they split up. You know, they were just basically, if they ever did say anything to each other, it was just, you know, calling each other names. And my mother hated my father. I think my dad didn't say too much about her, but he was too busy getting on with his second brood.
[1:27:35] I would just say find an adult who makes sense and can give you some guidance and advice for life, because I certainly never had any of that.
[1:27:48] I'm sorry about that. I tried to do that a little bit as best I can in sort of passing for people as a whole. And what's life like at 67? No wife, no kids. I'm not sort of trying to prime you to say, oh, it is whoa. I'm just, I'm curious because it's, you know, very different from my life. And so what does it look like at 67? I guess you got, you know, probably another 15 years, maybe more to live. And what's it like?
[1:28:17] Yeah it's okay um i got i worked like i said i worked at a factory for a number of years right and then uh came down with a health concern actually i know what hopefully you're not as.
[1:28:33] Serious as your ex's.
[1:28:34] No no uh it was you know and i realize now why i got sick um it was a you know because of the shift work, right? Every two weeks, you're on a rotating shift where you're essentially getting sleep deprived. I got basically sleep deprived for like 20 years. Yeah, because your body's constantly adjusting to this two-week rotation. And yeah, it messes you up, right? I didn't realize that at the time. When you're younger, you can handle it maybe, but over time, it really does take its toll on your body. Anyway, when I left there, I kind of got into... Uh, like building, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty, um, skilled at, um, using my hands. Um, I can, you know, I can kind of take, put my talents to pretty much any effect and, um, yeah. So that's why I kind of pursued that. Uh, now I'm sort of doing the odd job, uh, just to keep active and stuff.
[1:29:47] And and what do you do with your days as a whole other than of course listen to the greatest philosophy show in the history of the planet but what do you what do you do with your days.
[1:29:57] When i'm not shoveling the driveway um.
[1:29:59] Yes when you're not shoveling the driveway.
[1:30:07] Yeah, well, I do some renovating, like I said. I do a lot of reading, going out for walks. Yeah, kind of stuff like that. I do have a person that I'm currently living with. We're not a couple or anything like that.
[1:30:25] Like a female?
[1:30:26] Yeah, we're just close friends.
[1:30:28] Hang on. Why aren't you slipping at the sausage?
[1:30:37] Yeah um oh boy you must have other coolers who want to get that.
[1:30:43] Hey listen man don't talk about anything you don't want to talk about i'm just like it to me it's always a question if you're both single and you get along why not have sex yeah.
[1:30:52] Well we yeah, did.
[1:30:58] Oh you did yeah.
[1:31:00] We were formerly you know a couple but there was some more uh oh god i don't want to really i don't really want to share too.
[1:31:07] Much no no that's fine listen don't don't talk about anything is it anything to do with your health issues as to why you're not and what health issues did you get from uh from the shift work yeah.
[1:31:17] Like i came down with this really terrible, uh, ongoing pain that was agonizing in my, in my, in.
[1:31:28] Sorry, you just feel that the end of that sentence is quite important.
[1:31:33] I came down with this really severe pain in my stomach.
[1:31:36] Oh.
[1:31:37] So then I got sent out for, you know, they did all the tests and stuff. You know, when they stick the hose down your mouth and take a good look around.
[1:31:46] I don't know, but I believe you.
[1:31:50] Yeah, actually, I was a bit of an idiot there, more so than I am usually. Because, yeah, I had to drive down to out of town to the clinic where they do this test, you know, where they stick the camera down your mouth. And the doctor says, okay, we're going to give you a sedative. And I said, oh, I don't think I'll need that, you know. And he said, well, I would really, really recommend it. I said, well, I have to drive home after this, right? He goes, oh you want me to drive for a while i says okay forget the sedative just go for it oh.
[1:32:25] My god are you mad.
[1:32:26] Yeah mad yeah it was it was pretty awful yeah and and.
[1:32:31] Then once it's down there it's not like they can give you the sedative then right.
[1:32:34] No too late right well you can't you can't really talk either way oh right anyway anyway that was a that was not the best choice i'd made but anyway it worked out all right anyway they couldn't find anything and um so then they were like, my you know i went into a bit of a fight with my they sent me for this they've sent me they sent me to this counselor guy because you know i was saying like i yeah yeah and he he said well we can give you some i told him myself i can't handle these i can't do the shift work anymore i'm not looking to get out of work or anything i just and they had made other arrangements with other people who had different things going on for them where they'd be just straight days you know i said well so you're still doing.
[1:33:21] The shift work at this point.
[1:33:23] Yeah and.
[1:33:24] How long ago was this.
[1:33:24] Oh this was um, Who was it? 2007, I guess.
[1:33:34] Okay, got it. And what did the guy still say?
[1:33:39] Well, he said, look, well, I'm going to put you on this medication that will allow you to do the shift work.
[1:33:47] What medication is that?
[1:33:49] I said, well, wait a sec. like why not so now you can basically give me a medication that's going to hide the symptoms, of working shift work and he said yeah i said does that make any sense to you and we had a little back and forth and then in the end in the end he kind of realized oh no it doesn't make any sense at all right so anyway i finally left they gave me some kind of like payout thing right and because i couldn't do it anymore right i was just sick of it, And I've been pretty good at my job there as well. It's not like I was a hard worker. I mean, really good at my job and I liked it. I just couldn't do the shift work any longer. So yeah, anyway, so then that went, you know.
[1:34:43] So, uh, why, um, so you're with this woman, you live together with this woman. You used to be lovers, but you don't do that anymore.
[1:34:52] Right.
[1:34:52] And what happened to your stomach pain?
[1:34:55] It went away once I, once I quit, um, not quit, but once I kind of worked out a, um, thing with the, with the place I was working at, um, yeah.
[1:35:09] Maybe you're too old for sex. that's kind of a myth as a whole that that no no no i mean yeah you're not like 90 yeah so it's kind of a myth uh as a whole um absent health issues or whatever it is i mean uh male sexual capacity doesn't really diminish until you get very very old yeah yeah yeah yeah.
[1:35:29] Yeah for sure yeah no i understand that you know i i understand that is i mean there's this is many many many chapters more of this whole story but I kind.
[1:35:42] Of don't really so what, somebody's asking are you lonely or is it peaceful? I guess you're not lonely if you're living with a woman right?
[1:35:53] No no it's peaceful it's not lonely I'm not lonely it's peaceful and yeah we have a pretty good relationship as kind of friends now you know, it's pretty good and.
[1:36:06] Is she retired as well?
[1:36:09] Sort of, um...
[1:36:11] No, she's 18. Plot twist. No, I'm just kidding. Legal plot twist. Sorry, we get back to needing a lawyer again, but anyway, go on.
[1:36:19] No, no, no, she's... Uh, no, she's... She's, uh, she, um... She's kind of got her own stuff going on in her family and stuff as well. Some of her siblings are sick, and her friend just died recently.
[1:36:36] Oh, yeah. Enjoy your illness-free life, kids. Enjoy your illness-free life, because when you get older, it's just like, you know, there's this old cliche about all the old people getting together and moaning about their infirmities and the popping of this and the spraining of that and the ache of this. And the, uh, yeah, I mean, this is why, I mean, I'm almost, almost, uh, obsessed with sort of exercise and stretching and try to stay healthy weight and all of that, because yeah, old age, uh, sucks even in decent health and in bad health, it is just monstrous.
[1:37:10] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so when you sort of.
[1:37:16] What, what, I mean, what do you think of, I don't want to sort of like, I don't know, lead the witness or anything, so to speak. Right but what are your sort of thoughts about having not had kids or or a family life that that sort of procreative or or sort of being single into your old age i mean do you do you date at all or i guess it'd be kind of awkward if you're living with an ex right yeah.
[1:37:38] Um yeah i know i i i i totally regret, miss that i just said i i totally regret not having kids.
[1:37:54] Yeah and what uh what is it that you think about with that.
[1:37:58] Um wow um,
[1:38:07] yeah that's a that's a pretty deep question right um.
[1:38:10] Well and the reason i'm saying that and again you don't have to talk about anything you don't want to but yeah i i i've made mistakes oh sorry can you hear yeah i can i mean i've made mistakes in my life and one of the things that i try to do is to sort of pass back the hard one wisdom to the younger yeah yeah people like like don't, screw around in your 20s too much and you know try and find the right person and settle down early and you know have kids and and all of that like try to live a life as close to your ancestors as possible without going back to the blood feuds that we talked about earlier so um yeah what is it that if you know if you could say to your younger self or what you would say to uh younger people i mean i think obviously the obvious one is is don't marry the wrong person and if you do marry the wrong person rectify it as quickly as possible especially if there are no kids involved.
[1:39:02] Yeah yeah 100 that would definitely be one of the things i would pass on.
[1:39:06] Because it sounds like you kind of exploited by that whole situation.
[1:39:11] Well, I don't know. I didn't really have a good model or a good example to model on. I really didn't. I showed up completely out of the blue in Canada. Um you know nobody knew I was leaving England nobody knew I was coming here I could have just gone missing and nobody would have known um, Uh, yeah, I don't know, like, get some, like, I go back to what I said earlier, like, try to, if you're a young, young person, try to find somebody who's with some wisdom. You know, if that's not your parents, then try to find somebody, because otherwise, you know, you can go astray. You need some, you need to have some example of wisdom, you know, which should be the role of your parents, obviously.
[1:40:10] And what sort of, but what wisdom do you feel was, was missing? What was the major stuff that you look back and wish you'd known?
[1:40:19] All of it, really. Like, I mean, I was left on my own devices pretty early on, you know, once my, once my mom decided to, you know, leave the country and leave us on my dad's doorstep, right? She hadn't really given any advice to me as a young person. And he didn't, he definitely didn't, you know, once we showed up there. More of a burden than anything else on his new life. So yeah, I just sort of make do with what I could figure out for myself. I had an uncle who was kind of eccentric and he was nice. He was pretty good, but he didn't really give me any sort of life advice. I would just go by his place. he was happily married and he seemed to be kind of have most of you know he seemed, he was kinder than my dad or my mom were to me right so um maybe that's why i liked hanging out with him you know uh he liked kids well hopefully it wasn't like a jimmy savile kind type but um no.
[1:41:27] I mean that's that's i know what you mean but that's kind of a a diss against men and it's one of the ways in which men are sort of kept away from leadership positions is like, all men who, like children, are pedos, you know? Yeah, it's really bad for young boys in particular. It's one of the ways in which women can rip on the minds of the young people. Okay interesting all right well let me just uh and i listen i appreciate your time i appreciate your openness sorry go ahead yeah.
[1:41:54] Sorry i'm gonna have to use the bathroom.
[1:41:56] No no that's fine i appreciate that uh so um i will uh i appreciate and listen i really do appreciate the call and i'm sorry for the technical issues we are trying to get them to work on it let me just go hey if there are other callers i'll let you go do your washroom there and uh let's just get your chats here uh and see see what people have to say about it uh about this sort of question or issues.
[1:42:22] So let's see here somebody says you changed my mind uh almost about a decade ago Stef well I appreciate that well you changed your mind I just right uh somebody says uh I just got my merch today a beanie and a hat ready for any weather now uh and what movie is this uh i was talking about um spinal tap it's a comedy movie from rob reiner vengeance is justice in its purest form in my opinion i wouldn't say that in particular justice is when it's been proven and it is proportional and so on, right? And I don't think that proven is the government because the government is too invested in votes, right? So I guess this guy went through a whole system where he handed over the new car, he handed over the house and he took $40,000 in debt and then the government, because the government wants to get the votes from women, so the government works very hard to get women more than they would probably get in the free market and so on.
[1:43:31] Uh isn't that a good argument for the state oh with regards to the vengeance thing uh no i i don't think so because it would be like saying that in the hatfields and the mccoys that the way you solve that problem is to give one or the other party nuclear weapons or something like that uh that wouldn't uh that wouldn't like that wouldn't really work because human beings are, frail and faulty and prone to corruption through power. So your justice administrators need to be voluntary. Otherwise, they are going to abuse the power that is given to them, which is why I'm a fan of the stateless society. Somebody said, oh, this is back to the vengeance stuff. By impersonal standards, Sally needs to conform to the justice system's judgment of the assault on her child. She isn't allowed to apply consequences independently. Well, that's why I set it up where she's got video proof that the guy molested or raped her child and the justice department or the justice system in Albania, the sort of made up country, is protecting the child's rapist.
[1:44:40] Uh, vengeance is mine. I'll be replaced as the Lord, another morally paralyzing verse for Christians. Yes, Alex. I think that is, I think that is very true. Uh, most men leave for younger women if they can, at least based on what I've read and seen online. Well, again, online is not, uh, representative, right? Not a representative sample of, of humanity, but, uh, so it's, it's, So from 20 to 40 or 45, you're raising your kids. By 45, your wife is infertile, but you're still fertile as a man. And you can go and have another family.
[1:45:22] And that's, of course, bad for your wife. And if that was the case, then we could never have developed our giant brains, right? Our giant brains take like a quarter century to grow. And the only reason that women would do that and would, sacrifice themselves in a sense to sort of raise these giant brains is if they have reasonable assurance that the man is going to stick around when the woman ages out of childbirth. And so that's why you have monogamy till death do us part and religion and so on to allow the woman to surrender herself and sacrifice herself in that way. Because a woman doesn't want to go from, you know, 20 to 45 raising, say, four or five kids and then just get tossed aside for the man to go for a younger woman. And of course, that's bad for other men, because if older men are having second families, it means younger men don't get their first families. Because let's say that the 45-year-old is going to go for the 20 or 25-year-old, that takes her out of the circulation, which means that you have an excess of young men who can't have families. And an excess of young men who can't have families is a seriously destabilizing force in society.
[1:46:32] Because if young men can't have families, which is, I think, they're trying to radicalize white men by keeping them out of the workforce and so on. But if young men can't have families, then it's easy to make them revolutionaries because their genes are like, well, we have nothing to lose. We might as well fight to change the system because otherwise we can't survive. So in general, what's happened is that, in the West at least, the sort of monogamy for the rest of your life, for better or for worse, until we age out, what's happened is the man has traded in a second family for a smarter first family, because the woman is now willing to devote herself and the brains can get bigger and take longer to develop, right? That which ends up the most complex tends to take the longest to develop. So we can have these giant brains because of monogamy.
[1:47:26] And the man has said, I'm not going to go have a second family because then a bunch of young men are probably going to kill me, right? Because I'm preventing them from getting families. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to maximize my genetics, not by having a second family, but by investing in grandchildren, right? Because they're a quarter yours anyway, right? So I'm going to not have five more kids that are a half mine. My five kids are going to have five kids. I'm going to have 25 kids that are a quarter mine, right? So, so that's, um, you know, I'm going to get seven times my genetics by having 25 grandkids that are a quarter mine rather than five more kids that are half mine, which is only, you know, uh, it's not, it's not as good, right? I'd rather have 25 kids mathematically that are a quarter mine than five kids that are half mine because I get seven units instead of 2.5 of genetic transmission. So that's kind of what we've worked out in the West. And that's why we have this stuff. All right. So let's see here.
[1:48:36] If I ever give out loans, I've learned that you only give it out if you genuinely never expect to be paid back. Yeah, certainly that is, as you get later on in life, my friends and I would lend each other money in our teens and our early 20s. And that worked out pretty well. But certainly when you get later on in life, if somebody's in their 30s and still borrowing, that's not pretty, that's not very good. All right. uh this woman says uh sexual harassment in school bra strap pulling butt slapping etc yeah yeah just terrible all totally glossed over by teachers it was and this is in canada too if i remember rightly, all right let's see here i'm sorry just went check and see and again i really do appreciate the caller and uh you know i think that's just a reminder to please please please please try and get yourself, settle down, try and get yourself kids and family and so on, because it is pretty tragic, particularly when you get old, for that as a whole. All right, so let's see here. Sorry, it just refreshed and I lost my place.
[1:49:56] All right. So, yeah, if you want to fire in any of the questions, I appreciate that. And, you know, I really do appreciate people opening up their lives. I'm rapidly fascinated by people's lives. I can't get enough of it. I'm rapidly fascinated by people's lives and sort of the cause and effect. And it's not gossip. It's not gossip. I must insist upon that, even though it's probably incorrect to say so. But let's see here. But it is, you know, and it's nice to get these windows. You know, most people go through life. They don't ever really get to know someone else. They don't ask about, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who dated this woman and, and I'm like, well, you know, when did you first start talking about childhood? Oh, maybe year three of the relationship. I'm like, really? Crazy. All right. Dum, dum, dum. All right. So let's see here. I feel like there's a good evolutionary reason for bullying. I'm going to research that. I'm curious. So, um, of course, most societies are authoritarian and bullying is there to break people's independent will so that they can fit into a usually very top-down and brutal society.
[1:51:11] All right, so you both need your own lawyers. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's legal advice to say if you've got legal issues, talk to a lawyer. But that's what I would say for sure. Somebody says, I worked night shift for a year in my teens. And yeah, it's brutal. No idea how people do that long term. They're machines. Well, it is wild.
[1:51:31] Many moons ago, for those of you who have been around for a while, I worked with a fellow named Mike, who was my producer, and he'd had a shift work for a long time and it was very tough. It was very tough. I think there have been 70-year-old men who've become fathers. Oh, older than that. Mick Jagger, Anthony Quinn. Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. Yes, there's this woman. Yeah, I walk minimum three hours a day. I'm terrified of getting old. Well, I'm not terrified of it, although I'm still on a fairly hale and hearty side. I'm still in my fifties. I'm not terrified of getting old. I'm terrified of getting old and frail, but that's my sort of, that's my issue.
[1:52:17] Uh, here's some advice. Don't smoke weed. Don't ignore that little voice in your head. Don't waste time. Don't wait for people to change. So many don'ts. I need more do's, right? My dad is working on his third family. Oh, my gosh. That's pretty rough. That's pretty rough.
[1:52:40] Somebody says, in my view, the reason people cheat is because they want to spend time with someone who doesn't know them well enough to judge them as accurately as their committed partner can. They want to be seen as the person they want to be rather than the person they truly are. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of unreality in affairs, right? Because, you know, you're dealing with your wife, you know, oh, got to call the insurance company. Oh, we've got to call so-and-so. His wife is sick and see how they're doing. Oh, we've got to get to the dentist. Oh, it's tax time. You know, there's all of that. But the affairs, it's just like, we're going to meet in a hotel downtown and have a lot of sex. Like there's, and this is true also of long distance relationships. There's none of the sort of prosaic, tangible, less sexy elements of life that, you know, an important part of life and an important issue in life. This is sort of life is chores and maintenance and phone calls and paperwork. I mean, all of that stuff is sort of very real and there's no way to escape it except you can't even go live in the woods because they'll find you and give you paperwork there too, like modern life, especially paperwork has become particularly brutal. Although in some ways it's better. I remember when I had my first programming job, I sat in a desk next to a guy who would spend his lunchtime paying all his bills, like writing out the checks, putting them in the envelope, licking the stamps, and then you have to go mail them off. And now, of course, it's a lot of deduction at source and all that kind of stuff. So some of it's better and some of it's worse for sure.
[1:54:07] I remember Mike, he was your assistant when I started listening. I always wanted to know the full story of how he left. I'm afraid I will have to leave your curiosity unsatisfied because it's kind of inside baseball and it's not really my story to tell. All right.
[1:54:26] I think we have come to the end of our questions, and I really do appreciate, thank you to all the new people who've come by today. It's a great pleasure to chat. I'm sorry for the technical issues.
[1:54:39] I feel, you know, when I'm on X sometimes, and I see, I think it's mostly one way, but I see like a quarter of a million people watching Alex Jones emergency broadcast, and uh i'm like can you just maybe get a caller to work on rumble it feels like technically it feels like more than humanly possible but apparently it seems to be beyond their powers at the moment which i find kind of odd all right well i will stop here and i really do appreciate i thank you for having the forbearance to forego my glorious spotty domed visage and i really appreciate everyone who's dropped by tonight freedomain.com/donate if you would like to help out the show it would be greatly humbly and deeply and gratefully appreciated look at me being redundant gratefully appreciated but freedomain just the usual threesome right freedomain.com/donate shop.freedomain.com and peaceful parenting and peacefulparentingbook.com and you can get your book. It's got my name on it, not my website.
[1:55:47] So you can give it to people who don't even know how controversial I've been made out to be when I am in fact about as bland a milk-a-toast. I mean, what is radical in the present is going to be yawning boring in the future. Like it's funny, I just don't want to end on this, but all of the sort of massive edgelord stuff that I was doing, like before I got deplatformed, the massive edgelord has become completely milk-atose. And of course, people are saying this on.
[1:56:14] On X in particular, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That take is like five years old. You used to be edgy. Now you're just bland. And I mean, I'm glad for that as a whole. I think that's great. And I guess I'll do my part to still shift the Overton window, but I certainly will say that the Overton window has shifted a lot. I had something to do with that. And for those of you who remember all of this kind of stuff, I certainly helped to keep it going. Also get it started and keep it going, but it's certainly run away from where I was in a very sort of powerful and important way. So I'm very glad for all of that. It's great, but I don't have to keep pushing the Overton window. At some point, you also have to relax and enjoy some of the fruits of your labors, of which these great conversations are an important and essential part. And I thank you all for your openness, freedomain.com/call. If you'd like to set up a call-in show, public or private, I've had some really great call-in shows recently, which I am working on.
[1:57:14] Unfortunately, I have to wait for someone to die before the next one comes out, or at least the one that I just recently recorded, and you'll know why when it comes out. So look for that. Well, I won't say I hope soon because I don't want people to die, but it probably won't be long. All right. Have yourself a glorious evening. Thank you so much for the privilege of these conversations. I'm very grateful for them. And I dare say the world and the future is as well. and I will talk to you tomorrow night for Wednesday Night Live. Thanks all. Bye.
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