In this subscriber-only Sunday Morning Live on 23 November 2025, hosted by philosopher Stefan Molyneux, the conversation delves into various pressing social issues and personal anecdotes, with a focus on familial relationships and the complexities of childhood discipline. Starting with a lighthearted introduction, Stefan shares a humorous quip about having a frog in his throat, setting a casual tone for the discussion ahead.
The show quickly shifts gears, as Stefan addresses a troubling video he quoted on X, depicting a mother severely beating her child—a video that sparked a public outcry and mixed reactions. Stefan explores the vast array of comments from viewers, some of whom justify the mother’s actions through biblical references, echoing a grim debate about discipline and its longstanding societal roots. He reflects on his upbringing, revealing that he experienced similar treatments, yet finds the normalization of such violence appalling, and adamantly calls for rational parenting methods.
As the conversation progresses, a caller shares their harrowing family story, specifically the tragic trajectory of their brother, who succumbed to addiction and enabled behaviors from their mother that were deemed neglectful and harmful. Stefan listens intently, offering insights into the toxic dynamics between the mother and her children, suggesting that her behavior stemmed from a deep-seated narcissism requiring validation through chaos and conflict. He draws parallels between these familial struggles and broader societal patterns of emotional manipulation and entitlement, particularly focusing on how parents often feel owed respect due to their status rather than their actions.
In a poignant moment, Stefan discusses the role of mental illness and addiction in family systems, emphasizing how proximity to such dysfunction can yield tragic outcomes for children. He examines the idea that children who are subjected to toxic parenting dynamics often replicate similar behaviors in their adult lives and noted that those who stray from this pattern might escape the cycle. The caller's narrative underscores the importance of understanding these toxic dynamics and sets the stage for broader discussions about healing and breaking the cycle of abuse.
The episode also includes light-hearted banter about societal norms, self-improvement, and philosophical musings on parenting styles. Stefan humorously critiques the "trend" of early-riser culture and reflects on the natural tendency of human beings to gravitate toward problem-solving, leading to the notion that we either confront real issues or delude ourselves with frivolous concerns. He highlights the contrast between fulfilling obligations of family and society as a means of fostering independence and rationality in children.
Closing the episode, Stefan expresses gratitude to his supporters and addresses various topics raised by listeners. He concludes with insights on personal growth, the importance of self-ownership, and the depth of the human experience—all themes that resonate throughout his examination of familial responsibility and moral integrity. The podcast encapsulates a vibrant blend of personal experience and philosophical inquiry, inviting listeners to ponder the intricate balance of duty and emotional health within family relationships.
0:07 - Opening Remarks
3:13 - The Discipline Debate
6:27 - The Role of Rationality
7:55 - Parenting Reflections
9:58 - Celebrating Birthdays
11:37 - The Nature of Problems
14:21 - Men's Attractiveness
16:05 - Shoutouts and Appreciation
18:32 - Night Owl Struggles
20:03 - The Homeless Industrial Complex
21:34 - The Batman Effect
23:15 - Epstein List Exposed
24:27 - The Dehydration Impact
26:00 - Confronting Hostility
28:02 - The Tipping Point
29:03 - The Impact of Wealth
35:03 - Celebrity Training Regimens
38:46 - Admitting Fault
43:50 - Analyzing Relationships
1:20:22 - Family Chaos and Addiction
1:21:29 - The Weight of Maternal Expectations
1:24:18 - Understanding Vengeance and Responsibility
[0:00] So, good morning, 23rd of November, 2025, and I'll be having a lovely day.
[0:07] I'm going to do a relatively short show. I've got a bit of a frog in my throat this morning. It makes me speak with a French accent. I don't know what that was, French and Spanish, something like that. But I really do appreciate your support. Thank you, of course. This is a private donor conversation, and I'm happy to take your questions. You can type them in on those local platforms. And I can tell you, make friends and break friends. My entire business model, which has remained relatively unchanged low these many decades. So I posted on X.
[0:51] Uh i posted a video of a woman uh beating her child so this is from kevin blue posted this, two days ago and he said an alabama school white teacher i'm not sure why the white it's important but whatever right an alabama school white teacher nicole staples was arrested and fired after a video showing her savagely beating her young son at least 20 times with a belt she was wants the teacher of the year as a second grade teacher. And then there's a racist comment. This is what white people do in their homes. And, uh, of course, whites spank less than blacks. Well known. But whatever. I mean, aside from the sort of anti-white racist stuff, um...
[1:39] The comments, the comments are interesting. A band pastor writes, thou shalt beat him with the rod and shall deliver his soul from hell, Proverbs 23, 14. This other person writes, how is this difficult to watch? LOL, let her discipline her child. Dean writes, this is reflective of how my mother, father, quote, disciplined me when I was a kid, no mercy, not holding back, just pain. Someone else writes, we got the belt or a paddle or even more. We're made to go outside and bring in a small branch from a tree for mom to spank us with. It was called discipline back then, and it worked. Somebody writes, 20 hits in 15 seconds is impressive. And somebody writes, and that's why they behave in the streets. Normal Sunday in my house, she's just punishing a kid, and so on.
[2:33] So, there was quite, I mean, there have been some Bible references and all of that, and a lot of people, a lot of people are praising it, using some Bible stuff. So, what can I tell you? I didn't see anything wrong with this here, to be honest. They did this to me, and I do too. It's called discipline. And then somebody says, no one said what the kid did, though. Somebody else, what did the kid do? Plus, she was using her left hand with short
[3:12] swings, a bit of an overreaction, in my opinion. Our kids need to be tougher at a time when parents cannot belt their kids. Yeah.
[3:28] Yeah. And somebody wrote, uh, I got raised this way and it sucked. It completely shattered my confidence, trust, and brought very dark and evil thoughts to my head. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right.
[3:45] So there are a number of Bible verses, uh, used to justify this kind of stuff. And, And that is pretty appalling, and it does sort of bring me to, you know, there's a lot of things that I like about Christianity, but what I am not particularly keen on is the justification for hitting.
[4:15] All right. So, Stef, did you see all the Indian accounts on X with the new location update? I didn't see that. I didn't see that. I saw that the Department of Homeland Security was created from an Israeli account. That probably was a VPN or some inaccuracy or something like that, because it just seems a little bit too wild to be true. But I did see that. And then it was taken down. Maybe there were issues. And of course, some ISPs will reroute you without your knowledge to, I'm not sure why, It's not a business that I understand very well, but my understanding is that some ISPs will reroute you without your knowledge, and therefore you will look as if you come from some other place than where you are. Hello, hello. So, yeah, there were a lot of Christians who were justifying this really aggressive stuff. Now, of course, it wasn't only Christians. It wasn't only Christians.
[5:24] But the ones that have the Bible verses seem to have very high likes and very high retweets. So that's, you know, that's the challenge, right? So a lot I like about Christianity, the way it treats children. Well, the more irrational your belief system, the more aggression you need to raise your children. It's one of the reasons why I oppose anti-rationality and promote rationality is if you have reason, then you can raise your children peacefully because you can reason with them. And if you can't, if your belief systems are irrational, then you have to use aggression to get children. Children are pretty rational. They don't believe stuff that they can't see. They don't believe stuff that they can't touch. And they're empirical and practical. and so to get them to be anti-empirical and anti-practical, that's what you have to do. You have to usually use some sort of threat. And sometimes you will outsource that threat to hell itself, to God is going to send you to hell and stuff like that.
[6:24] But why would you get people to believe stuff that doesn't make any sense to them? Well, you have to threaten them, bribe or threaten them.
[6:36] So alright let me just, see what else I have of note for you and again feel free to toss your questions in with my eternal thanks for your very kind support of the show alright see if people have stuff down here.
[6:56] John says, I was beat sometimes as a child. Couldn't imagine hitting my own child. Yeah, it's so incomprehensible. You know, I have a great relationship with my daughter. She's massive amounts of fun. And it's really interesting going through the scalding skepticism of a teenager. And that's natural. I did the same thing with my parents, although it was not quite the same relationship. But, you know, if you have foibles or you have vanities or you have sort of petty inconsistencies, or maybe not so petty inconsistencies, your teenager will find it. They're like a peregrine falcon spotting a mouse from four miles up in the air, right? I mean, they will, absolutely. And you kind of need that. It's a middle life, it's a midlife, although I'm probably close to the tail end of middle age, but it's a midlife scouring and cleansing of all of this, right?
[7:55] Uh, you, you, you get crusty, you get, um, uh, maybe a little, um, uh, your, your thoughts get repetitive and you don't challenge your basics.
[8:07] And when you have a teenager, uh, they will point out inconsistencies with great glee, I might add. And it's actually, it's a good, it's like when a ship goes into the dry dock and they scrape all the barnacles off. It's refreshing, it's renewal, and it is a cleansing, purifying, acidic, skeptical teenage fire that you have to go through. And of course, if I'd been violent, then I wouldn't have that feedback. And it's really, I feel renewed. I feel renewed. Because it reminds you to be humble. Because, you know, oh, Lord, it's so hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. All right, Chris says, some of these post comments, those post comments remind me of a chapter in The Body Keeps the Score. I think it's the trapped in relationships, the cost of abuse and neglect chapter. Some people mask their own abuse, which doesn't allow for their progression or healing, if I recall correctly. Well, if you have been seduced by evil into hitting your children, you have to defend the practice. Because otherwise, you have to go and apologize to your children.
[9:15] Eddie Murphy had a joke about being hit as a kid in a stand-up show called Delirious. He said he wished God would kill his mother for beating him. So Vince says, hello, Stef. Thank you for the tip. We're getting the house ready for our little lady's first birthday over here. Oh, how lovely. I just wanted to drop in to say hello. And thanks to all the life improving work. You've had a huge impact on my life. I haven't been joining live as often. Life has gotten very busy around here. We have a three-year-old son as well. Well, congratulations, Vince. That is absolutely lovely. I hope you don't mind. I will of course take your name off and I will post that as a testimonial if that's all right. Jesus, I don't want AI to help.
[9:58] But that is beautiful, and please do give your lovely child a kiss on the cheek of best wishes from me for a birthday.
[10:12] Do you know that, I don't know if you know this is true, I don't generally do big categories, but there are big categories in the world. There are three types of people in the world. This is the only time I would categorize. There are people who really care about their birthdays. There are people who don't care about their birthdays, and then there are people who pretend not to care about their birthdays. And they all end up in one unholy marriage. All of them, all of them together. Be aware, be aware. I've never had a successful relationship with someone who pretends they don't care about something but secretly does. It's too much you know.
[10:56] I've always said this, our brain is a problem-solving machine, and your brain will constantly need problems. It's a Pac-Man, your brain will constantly need problems. So, you either have real problems, or you have fake problems. Like, even at night, our brain makes up problems. I had a dream this morning that a giant wave was coming, and I had to rescue an electric train set, but some of it dropped, and God knows what the heck was going on with that. I haven't had a train set since I was in my early teens, but your brain, I had a big problem to solve, right? So even when you're asleep, your brain is like, well, we're asleep,
[11:35] but we got to have problems, right? And so either you have real problems or you will just make up problems. The amount of problems in your life will be constant. They're either real problems that are working towards the betterment of the planet or they're fake problems such as, well, I told you I didn't care about my birthday, but you know that I did, and I really expected you to be just causing problems, just making problems. If you don't have children, you're going to have political causes. Wretched, wretched stuff.
[12:09] But yeah, congratulations, Vince. I hope you have a lovely, lovely birthday, and just remember to enjoy the moment as well as have the photographs. All right. What else do I have for y'all? Ah, yes. In the endless quest that we all have for self-justification, going to bed late at night is associated with a higher IQ. Going to bed. You know, I was just thinking about this last night. I did a call-in show from 9 p.m. to 12.30 a.m. last night. And no, sorry, not, well, you know what? It was, it was a little over three hours. And so no, actually she's, we started a little late. It was about nine 22, close to one, one o'clock.
[12:56] And afterwards I was like, wow, that was, you know, it was a long call and all of that. And it's like, gee, I wish I felt tired. I mean, I'll feel tired of the afternoon. You know, I don't know, a couple of times a month, I'll sort of put my head down and take a brief nap in the afternoon. It's lovely. Actually, it's a very, very relaxing thing, But I don't be like, oh man, my wife's like that. Oh, I'm so tired, I got to go to bed. And I'm like, that would be nice. I'm not claiming to have a higher IQ than my wife. She's very smart. But it is, it's interesting because your mind is always active and maybe your mind doesn't enjoy going to bed because it prefers to think rather than dream, especially if you're a practical empiricist like me. But it is something. When I was younger, right? And I used to think all those morning people were kind of dumb. So it turns out that there might be some fact about it. With regards to, sorry, let me just make sure I'm getting my comments here. Yeah. So also with regards to cues of upper body strength account for most of the variance in men's bodily attractiveness. So estimates of physical strength determined over 70% of men's bodily attractiveness. Tallness and leanness were also favored. The strongest men were the most attractive in all samples. So...
[14:21] That is very interesting. Because a woman wrote, men will have a tough time accepting this, but the body you have has nothing to do with whether the girl stays attracted to you for real. Real or not. She has some idea of what she wants, sure, but first comes the attraction to your character, then she accepts your body as her, what is that? As her new and only type. Hope that helps. Yeah, that's not true. Women have as much lust as men and have a particular body type. You see those guys with the really narrow waist the big broad shoulders, the viper they call it, right? I mean that's lean in the waist and strong up top because that's a combination of both able to lift things and able to run fast narrow hips and.
[15:09] So, yeah, women do have that kind of lust, and it is important. I'm glad that I worked out, and I'm glad that I still work out, because you gotta stay hot for the hotties, right? So, yeah, over 70% of men's bodily attractiveness is based upon estimates of physical strength, which of course women would have evolved to be attracted to men who were physically strong for reasons far too obvious for this brilliant audience to get there, right?
[15:47] Oh yeah, Zimph, again, Zimph has been doing fantastic work and I really, really do appreciate it. Just a public call out for Zimph's really fantastic work in getting the Peaceful
[15:59] Parenting book into physical copy and other things, such as the shop.freedomain.com. So public shout out and massive, massive, humble, heartfelt, deep, thankful, grateful. I'm going to throw something in your stocking this Christmas and it's not going to be my leg. Well, maybe. No, probably not. I can't do another me too. James already has a bunch of stuff in HR, but no, I really do appreciate it. Zimph writes, my mind is so active at night. It's kind of torture keeping a normal nine to five I've scheduled with that going on. Recently, with some things I've been working on, I've just had so much running through my mind. As far as ideas, thinking over to make sure I haven't missed anything, etc. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[16:40] I know, and it's tough for James with the HR department and his Me Too complaints because the HR department is just me in a wig and a Dr. Frankenfurter outfit, so if you're going to come to complain about inappropriate things to my HR department, you're just going to meet even more inappropriate things, so it's really, really tough. Chris says, that's good news. I'm a night owl, though watching the sunrise is a beautiful thing. It is. It is, but for me, if I get up too early, I mean, there's an old Adam Sandler bit, like, oh, I got up at 4.30 in the morning and I exercised, I ate breakfast, I had a meeting, I did this, that, and the other, and it's like one o'clock in the afternoon. This day is endless. It's kind of true. Help me, says James. Well, I can't put the wig on here because that might be too disturbing for others. And you know, the disturbing stuff should be for you, not for the audience. Early morning rises really only stupid when they make rising early some kind of weird virtue. Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.
[17:42] Uh, I've always believed my melatonin response is limited. Darkness does not induce malaise. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I never feel full. It's like, I never feel full when I'm eating. I just have to tell myself, Oh, thank you. Local son. I appreciate the tip. Yeah. I've never felt full. I never feel full. Uh, occasionally I've eat way too much, which is very rare. Um, I'll feel kind of bloated, but I never, I never get that. Oh, can't eat another bite. Um, I always have to say, stop eating, say, stop eating. I never feel full physically when I eat, and I never feel, almost never feel tired, except maybe sometimes the mid-afternoon. And sometimes it'd be like, boy, wouldn't it be nice if that mid-afternoon nappiness came at bedtime? But no, listen, I have nothing to complain about with regards to my mind and body, but these kind of quirks are interesting to me.
[18:32] Elon Musk, I think this is on, yes, that Joe Rogan's got that PTSD backdrop. Elon Musk exposes California Democrat NGOs that they make a fortune off the homeless. Quote, they're getting close to a million dollars per drug zombie. They need to keep them in the area so they get their revenue. They don't arrest the drug dealers because otherwise the drug zombies would leave. Homelessness is the wrong word. He says, like, homeless implies that somebody got a little behind on the mortgage payments and if they just got a job offer, they'd be back on their feet. But somebody who's totally dead inside shuffling along down the street with a needle dangling out of their leg, you know, taking a dump in the middle of the street, They're not like one job offer away from getting back on their feet. This is the poster. You know, these sorts of charities, they get this money. This money is proportionate to the number of homeless people. Their incentive structure is to maximize the number of drug zombies, not minimize it. That's why they don't address the drug dealers. And so they'd stop getting money from the government. And like all of this stuff is just wild.
[19:27] Just wild. This is a diabolical scam. This isn't, oh, sorry, these are all on quotes. So this is all from from Elon Musk. He stopped putting quotes at the beginning of paragraphs. So sorry about that. But this is all from Elon Musk. He says, so this is a diabolical scam. You're taxed on any money going through the system in San Francisco, and that money goes to the homeless industrial complex. When you add up all the money that's flowing, they're getting close to a million dollars per drug zombie. It's like $900,000 or something like some crazy amount of money is going to these organizations. So they want to keep people just barely alive to keep them. They need to keep them in the area so they get the revenue. They don't, right? So yeah, it's wild.
[20:04] This is wild. All right, let me turn. Any comments here? Okay. And the other thing I thought that was interesting, so there was a study done on lower-skilled male players. So lower-skilled male players in the video game Halo 3 directed more hostile comments towards female-voiced players, especially badly performing ones, while higher-skilled ones gave them supportive comments in a 2015 study.
[20:30] Hypothesis there, place in status hierarchy not threatened, plus mate-seeking mode? Well, I would say that in general, like when I see people just, you know, put other people down, trash them and all of this, then yeah, people looting the government with their NGOs. So you would look at the, um, you would look at the homeless people in this model where they get paid $900,000 per homeless person or per drug addict. You would look at the drug addicts as livestock and, you know, farmers don't kill their livestock, right? They keep them alive to get milk, right? Especially if, you know, you're looking for milk or eggs or something like that, then you work to keep them alive and in fact, expand their number, right? The more eggs, the more chickens, the more eggs, the more cows, the more milk and so on. But it has been my experience that when people are losers, they, kind of an obvious thing, but there's data behind it, right?
[21:28] So when people are losers, they tend to put other people down. When people are winners or doing well or confident, they tend to build other people down.
[21:44] This was, there's a Batman effect that I think was pretty, pretty wild. So, a field experiment on the Milan metro, that's in Italy, of course, a female experimenter looking convincingly pregnant, boarded the train and waited to see who would give up their seat. In half the trials, another experimenter entered from a different door, dressed as Batman, dressed as Batman. So when Batman was in the vicinity, commuters were nearly twice as likely to offer a woman their seat when the Dark Knight was around. So 38% of people offered the pregnant woman the seat when Batman wasn't there. But over two-thirds, 67%, gave up their seat when Batman was around. Isn't that wild? I think that is just wild and fairly delightful. I mean, I was trained in virtue through fictional characters.
[22:48] Oh, wow. Thomas Massey just exposed a hidden Epstein list. This is from two days ago. Thomas Massey, Representative Thomas Massey, just exposed a hidden Epstein list and called out Kash Patel for lying to the American people. This is from IRL and Dara. Massey says the FBI is sitting on files that named 20 other men tied to Epstein's sex trafficking operation, including a high-profile government official.
[23:12] They had this list the whole time. The cover-up is collapsing. He says, release the names now.
[23:23] Um, Marjorie Taylor Greene has retired, which is interesting. Um, mild dehydration affects mood in healthy young women. Isn't this interesting? You might be upset at your partner or you might just be thirsty. This is Brandon Liu, MD, wrote, women with just 1.36% dehydration experience substantial mood deterioration. Anger and hostility up 8%, fatigue up 17%, vigor down 12%, mood disturbance up 19%, task difficulty perception up 58%, overwhelmed, right? Concentration down 45%, and a doubling of headaches. And that's just with 1.36% dehydration. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound like a huge amount. So, and my daughter was saying this to you, are you hungry? Are you thirsty? Right? It's a very interesting question.
[24:28] This woman, I think it's a woman, Leigh Delacruz. Leigh, it's a female name, L-E-E-I-G-H. She wrote, somebody made a meme of me as an egg protector, like a knight protecting eggs, which I thought was pretty funny and I retweeted it. And she wrote, Stefan Molyneux is the egg protector. His mother mystifyingly decided to carry him to term. Poor lady is decidedly better off without the twisted uterine dropping in her life. She slammed him on a door to vitiate her need to slam the goblin gone. And that's wild. I mean, that's a really wild statement. And I think that she then, I said, you know, this is pretty, pretty terrible. And she said, let me elaborate. By slamming the goblin gone, I'm referring to the goblin specter of his mother's time when patriarchy forced brilliant, gifted, highly intelligent women like his mom to fall into marriage and child rearing rather than her own development. Um she misspelled rearing but that's all right so, the idea that my mother actually i'm gonna can i do this can i share the meme i don't think so, no i don't think i can it certainly is vicious for sure and i get that but.
[25:54] It is a um.
[26:00] It is a very, it's a very tough thing for people. I'm not, you know, all Christians sort of pray for your enemies kind of stuff, but it is a very tough thing when you're full of that much indoctrination and you're full of that much hatred. That is, that is really, that's a tough place to be, man. Because the idea that there was some patriarchy that forced my mother into marriage, um, which is not true.
[26:27] And not true at all. My mother got married in the sixties when lots of women were not getting married. But can you imagine, I mean, can you imagine the life of that sort of person? Because of course, they wouldn't be surrounded by any quality people, because a quality person would be just, you know, pretty horrified at these kinds of statements. But just imagine, imagine what kind of life that person must have.
[26:57] And just how I sort of view them, I mean, of course they have free will and all of that, but I do sort of view them as in the control of a particular type of devil or demon. And maybe there's a good person deep inside. I don't, you know, I think that that's true for a little while. Like if you smoke for a little while, you can quit and you'll probably be okay. I think of the Beatles, they all smoked when they were younger and the George Harrison kept smoking and then he died of lung cancer or something like this, some smoking related thing. But Paul McCartney quit and became a vegetarian and seems to be pretty hale and healthy later on in his life. So you can do a couple of bad things, a couple of wrong things, and you'll be okay. But after a certain amount of time, it's terminal, right? There's a tipping point, right? I've always think of this, I've mentioned this before, like you're walking over the seesaw, right? You walk and then you walk up, it's stable, you walk over, and then it goes down. And if it's sort of iced over or slippery, it's really tough to go back.
[28:02] So...
[28:06] I think that you can have a certain amount of, I mean, I wasn't a perfect teenager by any stretch of the imagination, and I've done some wrong in my life, of course, right? But I think I've obviously done majority good, and I've done as much good as I can without, you know, again, sort of being strung up by my Buster Browns. But I think that there's a tipping point wherein you can't come back. And my guess would be someone like that is on the other side of that tipping point. And you can see this sometimes on the whatever podcast, where people have just gone too far, they can't get back. They cannot admit fault. They cannot admit fault.
[29:04] Yeah, okay, so let me just get back to this. Bookie bookmarks. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. This rich guy says, I don't let my kids hang out with kids from broke families because they have limited beliefs. It's interesting. Only 12% of the public says billionaires have a positive impact on society. So 88% of the public is wrong, writes Robin Hanson. And, um...
[29:40] Yep. Yep. I mean, the government schools are based on coercion and, um, they're outside of the free market, so they can't teach you anything about the free market.
[29:56] Uh, from Grok, 73 separate major events in U.S. History alone that were once marked, censored, or labeled dangerous misinformation and are now either admitted or overwhelmingly evidenced.
[30:07] Um, I thought this is interesting too. And I, this sounds kind of shallow and sorry, let me just see if I'm missing any questions or anything like that. Oh, John, John, thank you for the tip. Says I had to learn how to talk smack as a kid to keep from always having to get into fistfights. Some people are exceptionally well at talking smack. Oh yeah. Some people are just absolutely brilliant at talking smack. I am in a sort of funny way, but, uh, some people are just, they really know they, they've got that, you know, like that meme of the arrow through the eye slit in the helmet, and uh they're really really my brother was like that yeah just fantastic at knowing weaknesses and being able to laser in it's kind of a british thing douglas murray gives me that same kind of, vibe so there's a movie it's not a very good movie called saturday night fever it's one of the movies that is really only known i guess like flash gordon for queen fans it's only really known for its soundtrack the bgs did of course a fantastic um soundtrack and there's a sort of famous dance scene with a very slender John Travolta. You know that, you know, that sort of arms are diagonal sort of dance scene. And it's kind of a 70s vibe in that it's like a guy doing a dance with everyone watching him. And he's like, obviously a really good dancer. He's very flexible. And.
[31:31] It's the sort of fantasy, you know, that you, it's the sort of Mary Sue fantasy. Like you, you go to a, um, uh, an Italian restaurant with some girl and you, you speak to the waiter in fluent Italian. She's like, wow, you know, and then, you know, everything about this. And then you go bowling and you bowl a perfect strike and you just, you're great at everything. And so there's this fantasy that, you know, I'm going to go dancing and everyone's going to stand around and clap and applaud and watch me dance. And, you know, I get, I get it, you know, it's a very sort of childish fantasy, but But anyway, so according to this poster, and let me just check and see whether it's true or not. I think it is. I just wanted to double check. But...
[32:21] Says, John Travolta ran two miles a day and danced for three hours daily to get in shape for Saturday night. Fever. Daily runs, dance sessions, and iconic disco dance too. You should be dancing. Fran Drescher was an uncredited cameo as a background dancer. Interesting.
[32:44] So, he dropped 20 pounds. the result is legendary, and John Travolta's always had this sort of up and down thing with his weight. But yeah, so if you run two miles a day and dance for three hours daily, you can do that kind of thing, but that's like a job. It's like Sylvester Stallone, you know, his workout regimen, I'm sure, is at least two hours a day and all of that. And, it is, so when you look at these kinds of things, like Arnold Schwarzenegger or whatever, it is. When you look at these kinds of things, you're seeing people for whom it is a job, like it is a job to do what they do. And let me just, uh, I'm going to ask this, uh, because I haven't sort of, I know John Travolta did, um, sorry, I'm sure it's like he wrote an entire book, In his prime, how many hours a week did Arnold, Arnold, Arnold, what's.
[33:58] Uh, work out? Sorry, I'm trying to type past the microphone here. You know that you've made it when you're in the spell check, right? All right, so he worked out approximately 20 to 25 hours a week, often hitting the gym twice a day, six days a week. Morning sessions, 60 to 90 minutes, usually focused on one or two major body parts. Afternoon, evening sessions, another 60 to 90 minutes, different body parts or weaker areas. Six days per week. Sometimes it was one lighter day or a rest day on Sunday. Total per day, two to three hours. Total to week, 20 to 25 hours of actual weight training. This does not include, cardio. He did relatively little steady state cardio back then. And he trained, yeah, two days times a day, six days a week. And when he was, some weeks, he would do 28 to 30 hours when adding extra abdominal work and posing.
[35:03] So, yeah. What about Sylvester Stallone?
[35:16] What about Sylvester? That's E-R-I, Sylvester Stallone. Trained even more intensely than Arnold, often hitting 25 to 35 hours per week, sometimes more during peak filming prep. Rocky 3, Rocky 4, and Rocky 2. Six days a week, twice a day, sometimes three times a day during Rocky 4 prep. Morning session, 90 to 120 minutes. Afternoon session, 90 to 120 minutes. Evening, often the third session, focus on abs, cardio, fight training, or additional weak point work. So four to six hours a day on many days. So 25 to 35 hours of actual training, lifting plus boxing/sparring plus cardio. So for Rocky IV and Rambo II, filmed back-to-back in 1985, he famously trained three times a day, six days a week for months, sometimes doing up to 18 workouts per week. And this is documented in behind-the-scenes footage and interviews with his trainer at the time. He's openly said that he was in the gym five to six hours a day during those periods. So 30 or more hours a week of combined weight training, fight choreography, and conditioning. And that is, that is wild.
[36:32] What about Dolph Lundgren is a friend of mine. I was referred to him as Dolph Lugnut. He said 20 to 28 hours a week, similar to Arnold, but with stronger martial arts and functional emphasis because his real Kyokushin karate black belt training.
[36:51] So he almost never took a full rest day when prepping for a film. Twice a day training was standard during movie prep. Total weekly hours, 20 to 28 days. That's wild. In a 1985 interview during Rocky IV filming, he said, I train twice a day, six days a week, once with weights, once with karate. That's how I get this size without steroids. Yeah, Rocky IV prep was the hardest, up to six hours a day total when you count weights plus full contact sparring plus fight choreography rehearsal with Stallone. So, of course, you know, for men, you look at this kind of stuff, and this is true for women as well. But for men, you look at this kind of stuff and you're like, ah, those muscles are cool. And it's like, but that's their job. That's their job. And, you know, they're paid millions of dollars for that kind of work. And, you know, good for them. I think it's a little demented. I think it's a little deranged, but, you know, good for them. Good for them. But yeah, it is just wild. When you look at, you know, you look at John Travolta and his dance and it's like, Well, yeah, if you spend months and months dancing for three hours a day just to do that, you know, two minute scene, it's just, it makes you, I guess, you know, does it make you feel deficient or whatever it is when it's like, but that's his job and he's paid millions of dollars.
[38:16] I like this. This is a good joke. The dean of the university asks the head of the physics department, why do you need such expensive equipment? Why can't you take a cue from the math department? All they ask for is pencils, paper, and a wastebasket. Or the philosophy department, all they ask for is pencils and paper, right? No wastebaskets because they never get anything wrong? Isn't that wild? All right. Let us get back to your, your thoughts.
[38:46] What is on your mind? Oh, no, not that. Somehow I have, ah, what? Oh, did I, oh, oh, ah, sorry. the microphone hit F11 so I lost the top of my uh I lost the top of my uh.
[39:13] Browser. All right. That's a good point about admitting fault. It seems to be rare in general. That's true. Yeah. Where does focusing in on another's vulnerabilities come from? A way to strengthen one another in harsh or brutal environments? I think it had, no, it's a lot. No, because that's kind of encouraging, right? You suck, you know, but it's done with sort of good nature and with the goal of encouraging. So you tear other people down when you can't compete. When you can't compete, you'll simply sabotage other people.
[39:45] So um i remember when i was in my mid-teens there was a girl at the record store at the don mills mall i liked and my brother liked her too and i went up to chat with her and i was chatting with her and my brother walked up and said wipe the drool off Stef and he sort of wiped his hand so that's just basic sabotage he just felt he couldn't compete so it's just basic sabotage stuff arnold's not the best example he believed in high volume exercises i don't know what that means. John says, I train for track and field and the training is nuts. Sprints require a lot of rest between reps and weightlifting afterwards. Easy three-hour workout if you include the rest. Yeah, it's always tough. I mean, I would not have ever been, um, I would never have been particularly averse to larger muscles. Could have been fun to try, but the problem is that, um, I don't know, maybe it's a British thing. I don't know if there's a lot of giant British bodybuilders, but, um, or Irish, but we tend to more towards bulk and potato lifting. But what happened with me was, um, if I exercise too much, I just get injured. I have a, you know, I don't know if it's a tendon thing or whatever, but if I exercise too much, I just get injured. So I just can't bulk. And there's a lot of people who just have that kind of body that doesn't injure as much. And it's very important for getting big muscles to not be prone to tendons or injuries or that kind of stuff.
[41:08] All right, like if you want to have abs, it's probably not great if you have a tendency towards hernias. That could be kind of negative, right? High volume versus high intensity, two different bodybuilding training styles. Yeah, so if you do short reps with very heavy weights, then you get, I mean, the bulkiest I ever got was when I was, I did a fair amount of training to play Macbeth, because it's a very physical role, a lot of sword fighting, and you want to look like a strong warrior, right? And so when I was doing that, I did six reps of the heaviest weight that I could do, six reps of six. Now I just do two reps of 12 because I'm not into big muscles. I just want to stay. I want to maintain the muscle mass that I have because as you get older, if you don't maintain the muscle mass, you lose it. And it's very, very hard to get back from what I understand. And so, yeah, so if you do, um, if you do short reps, fewer reps of heavier weights, you get bigger muscles. Uh, but I think you also, what is it? The guy with the post-it on his back, too muscle bound to, to reach it. So I don't think it does too much for flexibility and I'm not very flexible. I've never been able to touch my toes. I had a friend of mine, um, when I was a teenager, did a lot of judo. He could push his face into his knees. I can never write.
[42:28] Uh, I've never been able to touch my toes and people say, oh, just stretch more. It's like, nope, stretching doesn't change the length of your tendons. It, you know, relaxes you into it a little bit. Some of the roots of your tendons can get a little longer, but I did stretching for years in theater school and I did yoga and it doesn't change.
[42:46] You are born with the tendons you have. And I went through lumbago as a, um, before my teens, cause I was a kid, I had lumbago where my bones were growing much faster than my tendons. And so I was in a fair amount of discomfort. I had to have these crazy hot baths to try and loosen the tendons, or at least that was the theory. I don't know if it any did. I don't know if it ever did much good. But yeah, I went through quite a bit of discomfort when I was growing up. And so my tendons are for a much shorter person because I'm just a shade under six foot tall. But my tendons are for a much shorter person. My tendons are for someone who's like five, six. So, you know, it's kind of worth it because, you know, I hate to say it, but the height thing does kind of matter. Although I've never felt big as a person. Maybe it's because my brother is taller. I don't know. I've never felt, I mean, I know I'm above average in height and weight and probably a little bit above average in terms of muscle mass, but I've never felt big, like a big person. Because, you know, there's always a bigger person. You go to the gym, it's like, there's always a bigger person.
[43:47] All right. Any other last questions, comments, issues, challenge? Oh, hang on. We got somebody wishes to chat all right hold on just a sec because i'm holding the mic here is it uh it tipped uh can i get this no i think i need the uh give me just one sec sorry.
[44:13] Yeah, that's right, all the way back and under the desk. All right, so let me just pop that back on, that back up here, and Carrie has question, comment, criticism. I can't, yeah, I can't do, I can't do waits until failure, because, and the problem is my body doesn't tell me at the time that there's a problem, but Lord above, next day, and I just end up with less muscles because I can't work past that. My tendons have always been a problem with exercise. Anyway, little details about me that aren't hugely relevant.
[44:49] Good morning.
[44:50] Good morning. How are you doing?
[44:52] Good. My question today, I need help trying to analyze my mother.
[44:59] I have some experience with that, not with your mother, but yeah, go ahead.
[45:03] So I've touched on this with you before a little bit with my brother. He was the oldest of five and the only son, and she enabled him really bad. And, you know, he was dead by 31, right? Like everything she could do between bailing him out of jail, paying for all his child support. Like I said, he'd get high and drunk and bust his car up, and she'd fix all the windows, and he'd blow the engines out of his car because he's mad at his girlfriend, and she'd put a new engine in his Camaro. I mean, everything, his entire life, she enabled him. And I don't see that as love. I see that as almost sadistic. Like, did she really hate him and that's why she did that to him? Or did she think she loved him? Did she just manipulate him?
[45:56] Right.
[45:56] Because he would have to yell and scream like and cuss at her and physically threaten her or to kill himself to get anything he needed. And she would let him just carry on and carry on like she loved it. And then she'd finally give him whatever he wanted anyway. You know, it's like she loved the chaos. She did that to me one time. I fell into it and yelled at her to get what I wanted. And I had to yell at her for like an hour when I was like 14 years old to get a bathing suit. You know, she was taking to the store. And I felt just disgusted. Like, she just manipulated me into yelling and screaming like her to get what I wanted when she could have just said it in the first place. It's almost like she loved it to get her kids upset.
[46:41] What did your brother die of?
[46:44] He got some bad drugs.
[46:46] Oh, so he got something laced. Was he a really bad addict before that, or was it just bad luck?
[46:53] He started with pot probably at 12, 13, and he was huffing paint. And then it just, him and, there was a guy named Tyrone he worked at McDonald's with for a while, and they lived together, and they sold drugs together. And then about the time my brother turned 30, he started to straighten up. He got out of prison, and he got his GED, and he was going to the same university I was going to. He was six years older than me, and I had a night class with him, and he kind of started straightening up, and then for his 30th birthday, I think, he went and looked up this old friend that he had named Tyrone, and it was in a big city now, and he got some drugs from him, and the story I heard was he started bleeding out of his nose and his ears and everything, and he He was afraid to go to the hospital because he didn't want to go back to prison.
[47:46] Oh, was he on probation so he couldn't do drugs?
[47:49] I'm not sure. I wasn't that close to him. I wasn't sure about that, but he didn't want to get in trouble. And so I guess he didn't go and then he died.
[47:57] Hmm.
[47:59] But it was, you know, we had to take him off life support and all that, so.
[48:03] I'm so sorry. That's very tough. And do you know why he started doing drugs when he was 12?
[48:11] Well, my mom and dad never got along. And so anytime my dad tried to discipline him, which he wasn't good at either, my mom and him would get in a big fight and my dad would just say, I washed my hands of you. And he was the kind that he had marked on the calendar, you know, when you turn 18, you're out of here, you know, that kind of thing. But he started getting in trouble really young, like stealing from the neighbors. He would steal anything. My dad's mom had sent us silver dimes, and he went and stole those out of my mom's room to go just use them to buy something. But he was in drugs for as long as I can remember and in trouble as long as I can remember. He would run away, get put in a home, and then he had to go to Juvie. But I remember one thing my mom said, this is what's been really bothering me. She said when he was a baby, she would cry or get really upset to see what his reaction was, to get him to cry and be upset with her. And that stuck with me as that's kind of what you did to him his whole life. You know, get him into her emotions and then give him everything he wanted.
[49:22] And how long ago did he die?
[49:25] Um, it's been 18 years.
[49:33] Did he leave any kids behind?
[49:36] Yes. Yeah, he had a kid when he was 16, and then he had another kid when he was like 19. And then when he died, we found out he had another kid. They had to use his autopsy blood to prove it was his.
[49:51] Wow. And do you know what happened with those kids?
[49:56] Yes. His youngest or his oldest is doing really well. He was never really involved with him. His family was a good family, the mom side. And the daughter, I went to her graduation like 10 years ago. She's doing well. And the other boy, I've only seen him once in the last 10 years, but his mom is really, really good. So he got lucky with the mothers, put it that way.
[50:24] I can't imagine why these women would be having unprotected sex with a drug addict, but hey, you know, I mean, that's the vagaries of life. Right. All right. Was he very good looking? Was the, what was the?
[50:37] Yes.
[50:37] Oh, he was very good looking. Oh, that's a killer combo, man. Extreme dysfunction plus really good looking is a killer combo. And we understand this, the sort of crazy hot thing with women, but it's really bad for men as well.
[50:49] Yeah, he had a band, and he was really cool. You know, had a Camaro. You know, the racing stripe, canary yellow Camaro in high school. So he could always get girls.
[51:04] Right, right. Okay. So, trying to understand your mother, is she still alive? Yes.
[51:12] She has dementia now.
[51:14] And are you in contact with her?
[51:17] I saw her at my niece's baby shower last month, but she's not really all there.
[51:26] Okay. And who's taking care of her?
[51:28] My youngest sister, her and her husband, they got custody of her after.
[51:40] Oh, so they've got legal, I can't remember the term, but legal control over affairs. Yeah, yeah. Okay, got it. All right. And your father?
[51:53] He is out of the country. He married a lady from the Philippines, and he's living there now.
[51:59] Right. He's alive. Okay, almost inevitable, right? Okay. All right. And do you have any other siblings?
[52:06] I do. I have my youngest sister. We're all about a year and a half apart. And then I have a sister just older than me, and she lost all five of her kids because of drugs, four different dads. And then I haven't seen her in for a long time.
[52:21] Sorry, all five of her children died from drugs?
[52:23] No, she lost custody of all five of them.
[52:26] Oh, okay, got it, got it. I saw you said I'm lost. Okay, so she lost custody because she was on drugs?
[52:31] Yes.
[52:31] Okay.
[52:32] And then my oldest sister, she's about four years older than me and she's doing well.
[52:39] Do you know what the difference is? Do you have any idea? I mean, I'm not saying that you guys shouldn't be proud of the work that you've done to be better people. I mean, my gosh, it's fantastic and incredibly admirable. Do you think there are any other factors involved in these wildly different outcomes?
[52:55] So the two in the family that were closest to my mother have the worst outcomes.
[53:03] Hmm. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. The toxicity proximity, right?
[53:08] Yes.
[53:09] Like a virus, right? Okay.
[53:11] Yeah. I was the outcast. Like, so we had...
[53:13] And it hurt at the time, but, you know, there's nothing better than being the black sheep in a demonic family.
[53:19] Right. Right. So, you know, my little sister was the baby. And so she had some attention from my mom for quite a while. But then Robert being the oldest got everything. Like by the time we were in middle school, junior high, Robert was getting in so much trouble that we got nothing. All of her, she went to work and all of her money went to bail him out, get him cars, get him clothes. He wouldn't go to school if he didn't have all the best clothes and things. And we got nothing. Like I didn't have shoes that fit me. My toes were growing out of my shoes. Like it was so lopsided, it was insane. But when my parents got divorced, the two that went to live with my mother was my brother and then a sister that's on drugs. So those are the two that moved out and lived with her. Oh, and they're the ones who ended up with the negative outcomes.
[54:12] Okay. So the more exposure to your mother, the worse the outcome.
[54:15] Yes. And then the rest of us went to go live with different church families or my oldest went to live with her boyfriend. Like we all kind of just dispersed our own way. but the two that stuck with my mom, just, Didn't have a chance.
[54:33] And how old were you guys? I mean, you said the oldest with the boyfriend, so I assume it's middle to late teens as a whole. That's when they got divorced? You were sort of in your teens?
[54:43] Yes, junior high, so eighth grade.
[54:47] Right, okay. Wow, all right, all right. And when did your mother start to get dementia?
[54:55] This is a really bad story.
[54:57] Wait, this is the bad story? Okay.
[55:00] Oh, man, this is bad. So about 10 years ago, I wrote about this a little bit to you one time. I got a call. I was always the one in the family that was the outcast, but I was also— because even my sisters that are doing well now had trouble for a while, okay? And they overcame it. But not as bad as, you know, Robert and my sister—, So I got a call because I was always the one like when my brother was in the hospital, I was the one that went and stayed with him, not my parents. I was the one that had to talk to the doctors and understand what no brain activity means. And when the cerebral cortex ruptures and there's no brain activity that's ever coming back, no blood flow. I had to explain all this to my parents. And so I have to be like the parent. I had to go pick out the grave sites. You know, I had to do all those things that parents are supposed to do. And I was the second to the youngest. So things like that always fall on me. So when we got the call that my mother, she'd been living with my sister that lost all her children, custody of all her kids. She was living over there in a horrible environment. And we don't go over there, you know. And she had an opportunity to come live with me and my children. She did not want to because, you know, we don't do that. Sorry, she had an opportunity.
[56:19] I'm not sure what that means.
[56:21] I invited her to come live with me when my children were young, and I was a single mother. Well, she wasn't doing these things yet. I mean, well, I feel just like...
[56:30] But she what?
[56:32] Okay, I had not overcome feeling guilty by not being a part of my family.
[56:36] Okay, got it. I'd always moved away. Listen, it's not a criticism. I just, you know, given what you're saying now, it was a bit surprised. But okay, I understand that for sure. Okay, go ahead.
[56:44] So I still kept coming back. Like I had to get jobs in Texas and stuff. And I'd come back up here thinking I was wrong to keep abandoning my family. They needed me, especially after my brother died, right? So anyway, I had asked her to come live with me. And she would have a nice clean place, place to do her clothes, you know, take showers and not live the way she was living. But she did not want that. She wanted to go live with the sister on drugs. So anyway, long story short, I get a call from my oldest sister, mom is at the hospital, she's in ICU, they're calling in hospice, okay?
[57:22] I get there. I hadn't seen her in a long time. I get there and I had to have someone, my kids go stay with their jujitsu coach. I mean, I had to drop everything and go to the hospital. I go there, she's 72 pounds and she's delirious from malnourishment. And I don't know what kind of drugs my sister was giving her. And it was really, really bad. And so I stayed by her side and force fed her, talked to the doctors. I would, you know, they just said, she's gonna pass, right? So I stayed right by her side in the hospital for a week. And we went through her screaming, her delirium, everything. And they say this is partly what started her dementia. So my sisters came in and they just like went out and threw up. Like it was so bad. And so I was the one, of course, that stayed there. And so I get her through this. She gets released finally, right? And my sister, my youngest sister, her husband were in a better situation than me because at the time I was a single mother. And they took custody of her because they have more money and they had, you know, a house. And anyway, they ended up getting her into assisted living until she started drinking again. And then they brought her back into her house and now they've got her back in assisted living because she just, she's impossible.
[58:37] And was she an alcoholic?
[58:39] She was not. When growing up, she never smoked or drank or anything. She quit smoking when she got pregnant with my brother way back, her and my dad both. And she never drank. Like maybe on New Year's she'd have one wine cooler and say she was woozy and go to sleep. But after my brother died, she started drinking and smoking and all that.
[59:01] Right. Okay. All right. So if there's anything else you want to add, I certainly can give you some feedback.
[59:09] No, that's a lot.
[59:11] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So... Most people are not principled. What they do is they manage their own feelings. So, what your mother, I assume, was doing is, it was mostly to do with, well, I feel bad about my son, so I'm going to give him things so that I don't feel bad anymore.
[59:45] So it is fundamentally narcissistic in that the only thing that concerns you, or the only thing that concerns someone like your mother, is her own feelings. Well, my son is in trouble. I feel bad, sad, scared that my son is in trouble. So I will do whatever it takes to make myself feel better in the moment, rather than getting professional advice on what is best for my son in the long run. And so, it is focusing not on the other person, but on your own emotions. I feel bad. I'm going to do what is necessary so that I don't feel bad anymore. Not, I'm going to do what is right, even if it makes me feel worse. And that's sort of the addict personality. And people can become addicted to addicts very easily, especially parents. And so the addict personality is, I live my life in a sort of hedonistic way to minimize suffering and maximize pleasure in the moment. I don't think about the long term. I just did a whole show, I haven't published it yet on happiness versus hedonism.
[1:01:03] So hedonists operate really at the level of our selected animals, like the rabbits who just like, well, we're going to have sex and we're going to eat a bunch of grass because that feels good, but we don't really care. Or we don't even think about the long-term effects. Well, you know, if we have too many babies, we're going to run out of grass. We're going to starve to death. It's just eat sex, eat sex, eat sex, right? And so I assume that your mother was kind of a hedonist.
[1:01:28] And so she did what she felt like. She gets angry, she yells. She gets really angry, she hits. She's mad at someone, she just threatens them. Like your father is the same way too. Like, oh, I'm checking down the days till you're 18 and you're out of here and, you know, your father would just, you know, withdraw and punish. So it's all just about emotions in the moment, trying to minimize negative emotions and maximize positive emotions. And there's almost no ability or willingness to sacrifice for the sake of long-term happiness. And of course, what happens is the addicts are burning the happiness of the future for artificial fires in the present. So I assume that your mother, it wasn't even that she hated him or wanted to sabotage him. Him as an individual doesn't really show up in her calculations. In other words, what's best for him because the only thing that she's dealing with is the basic principle of I want to maximize my own positive emotions and I want to minimize my own negative emotions. So if my son is in trouble, let's say he's in jail, well, I'll go bail him out because I don't like the thought of him being in jail.
[1:02:42] And so I'll go and bail him out because when he's out of jail, I'll feel better. It's not about what's good for him or best for him or worse for him. It's just about him being in jail gives me bad feelings. If I go and bail him out of jail, those bad feelings will go away.
[1:02:59] And so it's not really focused on your brother at all. It is simply managing the immediate stimuli of positive or negative emotions, if that makes sense.
[1:03:10] It does, but what I'm hung up on is how she loved to make them upset. She loved to make them do what she does, like yell and scream at her. She would not give in. So it wasn't just, oh, Robert wants something. I have to do what I can to get it for him. Robert had to yell and scream and threaten and say he was going to commit suicide or he was going to anything before she would give it. So she didn't just give it.
[1:03:38] Sorry to interrupt. But what that means is that Robert understood that your mother operates on the pleasure pain principle. And if he wants something for her, from her, he will simply apply negative stimulus to your mother until he gets what he wants. This is why addicts are often called emotional terrorists. So terrorism is the use of violence to gain resources or agreement in the political realm. In the realm of the family, if you want your mother to do something, you can't appeal to reason. You can't appeal to virtue. You can't appeal to principle. You can't appeal to empathy. So if you want her to do something, you either apply her with positive stimuli, you know, praise and gifts and rewards and status or whatever it is, right? Or you apply negative stimuli until she does what you want. In other words, you yell and cuss and scream and throw things until she's like, okay, fine, enough negative stimuli has been applied to me that I will now conform or comply. And so because she's a pleasure pain principle person, if you want her to do something that she doesn't want to do, the only way to get her to do it is simply apply more and more negative stimuli, which she will then reward by giving you what you want. So she's training people to, if you give people stuff when they treat you badly, you're just training them to treat you badly.
[1:05:00] But see, if that was a sane, halfway sane person, I see what you're saying. But she liked it. She liked being, she liked seeing them upset. It wasn't, oh, you know, they're making her feel bad until she gave in. It was a requirement. You are going to dance like a monkey and do these things for me and get all upset and threaten to kill yourself or you're not getting it. It was a requirement. It wasn't, oh, you're going to yell at me and I don't think you should have it, but you're going to yell at me enough and make me feel bad enough. I'm going to give it to you. You had to dance like a monkey to get it.
[1:05:36] Help me understand that perspective, because it's a little bit mind-reading, unless your mother said, oh, I love it when my children dance like a monkey. It's a little bit mind-reading, which doesn't mean that you're wrong. Of course, you know her infinitely better than I do. But when you say she enjoyed it or she enjoyed dancing, as you say, dance like a monkey, how would that look? How would you, why would you think that? And again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I just want to know what your evidence is.
[1:06:02] Well, she wanted everyone around her in turmoil.
[1:06:06] No, no, sorry, but how do you know that she wanted that?
[1:06:10] Well, when she told me, like, just when he was a baby, you know, little, and she would purposely, you know, sit in front of him when she was feeding him and start crying or get upset just to make sure he mimicked what emotions she had.
[1:06:25] Okay, but we don't know why she did that. We don't even know if that's true. Because, you know, a lot of people make up crazy stuff. So we don't, I mean, so obviously that's a big story for you, and I'm not saying it's false or anything like that, but we don't know her motives in particular for that. She could have just been very cold-hearted and be like, well, I wonder what will happen if I try this, you know, like experimenting on a baby in the same way that the Japanese experimented on the Australian prisoners of war in the second world war. So we don't know her motives for that or how true that was, but what did you personally witness that, again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want, The cause and effect of your belief system, when you say she enjoyed causing turmoil, what did you see, not what did she report, but what did you see that gives you that impression?
[1:07:20] Okay, so I had saved money. This is when I was like 13, 14. I'd saved my money from babysitting to buy a bathing suit for a swim party I was invited to. And she was supposed to drive me to Walmart to buy a bathing suit. And she'd already said she would. And then she locked herself upstairs in her room. She had a lock at the bottom of the stairs and she would lock herself upstairs until you had to yell at her from downstairs to hear her upstairs. And so I was like, I need to go get this bathing suit you said and I never interacted with her and thus I had to, but I didn't have a driver's license. So she was like, no, I've decided I'm not going to do that. So I'm getting more and more upset because I have a swim party I have to go to, you know, and I ended up having to stand out the bottom of the stairs like my brother did and yell at her and cuss at her and act exactly like he did. And then she came down the stairs finally when she got me to do it long enough. And it's like, okay, let's go.
[1:08:19] Okay. So generally, I mean, maybe she was just a pure sadist. I don't know, right? But generally what happens is people, we'll just talk about this particular bad mother. I'll just call her Mary. So your mother Mary wants to be loved, wants to be respected, but doesn't perform the actions necessary for love and respect. And so a lot of times people will feel they're owed love and respect.
[1:08:51] And really just for being the mother or taking care of the kids or putting a roof over their heads or whatever they're doing. They feel that they're owed love and respect for the category of their being. And then if you don't give them love and respect, then you are not paying a legitimate debt. And so they feel upset, angry, offended, hurt, and that a grave injustice has been done and that you are a bad person for not giving them the love and respect that you owe them. It'd be like if you lend your friend a thousand dollars and he just keeps dodging your phone calls and won't pay you back, you're going to get angry and annoyed with him. And so if there is this entitlement, right? I'm entitled to love and respect just for being your mother. And so if you don't give her the love and respect, which you can't because she's acting in a petty and vengeful and immature manner, you cannot summon love and respect.
[1:09:55] From the depths of your soul where it's not earned by moral behavior. So she feels hard done by you. She feels that you are not paying her the toll of love and respect that you owe her because she's your mother. And so- You nailed it. Yeah. So she's looking for ways to pay you back. So she is recreating in you what she is experiencing from you due to her immaturity. So she is not keeping her promise. She's not fulfilling her obligation, but that's because you're not fulfilling your obligation to her by giving her love and respect and deference and praise and what a wonderful mother you are and how much you sacrifice for us and how much I love you. So because you're not fulfilling your your your commitment to her she's like oh let's see how you like it when i don't fulfill my commitment to you right and then you know and then after a while when you've been humiliated enough then maybe you've learned your lesson and she'll go and get you the uh the bathing suit i'm sorry that's not a perfect way of putting it but i think it's something like that.
[1:11:01] No that's it okay yeah you've got it this time i mean for, I can wrap my head around that. It's just been driving me crazier. I'm like, was she a complete sadist? But she would always say, you freaking kids, you know, I did this, I did that. I've done all this for all five of you. I didn't even have disposable diapers. I had to wash these. You know, she would let us know all of the heartaches we caused her.
[1:11:30] And then you owe her. You owe her.
[1:11:32] Right, right.
[1:11:33] Yeah, my mother used to, when dinner parties, my mother would simply go over all of the illnesses that my brother and I had had. And then they got this. And it's just a normal childhood illness. It's nothing major. And there was this sense of, well, look how much I've devoted. Look how much I've sacrificed. Look how much I've given. You owe me. And uh it's rough man i mean i remember my my brother when we were visiting my, my aunt uh and and she had a a husband who's you know a pretty pretty honorable guy pretty pretty cool guy and this was a constant theme in my family for years and years and years afterwards, that the dad, I guess my uncle-in-law, so to speak, right? So my aunt's husband said to my father, sorry, said to my brother, you left the toothpaste cap off the tube. And my brother ran up the stairs to do it, right? And this drove my mother completely insane. And for years afterwards, it's like, why don't you give me the same respect you gave that guy? You flew up the stairs when he told you this and I can't get you to do anything. And it's like, well, because, you know, he was an authoritative male who'd kept his family together and seemed like a pretty good father. So he had earned that level of respect. Plus there is, you know, that sense of like being...
[1:12:52] Someone else's household, you generally will behave a little better. I mean, then the same thing is, why didn't you yell at us, scream at us, and hit us in that household? Because you were behaving better. Well, so was I, right? But my mother felt that she deserved that level of deference and respect, though she had not earned it. In fact, she had earned mostly contempt. And again, this is because I didn't really understand all the history of Germany and all of that in the war, or particularly after the war. But you know, I mean, you can't be.
[1:13:25] An expert historian prior to the internet when you are 12 years old. So, There is just that entitlement that, that you owe me because of what I've done and you owe me. And if you don't pay me, man, I'm going to make you feel bad because, you know, in the same way that if your friend doesn't pay you the thousand dollars that you kind of desperately need to pay your rent and he's just avoiding your calls, you're going to be mad at him. And, um, you might threaten him. I'm going to call the cops. I'm going to take you to small claims court. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to come take your car or, you know, whatever you'd say, because you're so frightened, angry, and frustrated. And he borrowed the money and he owes it to you back. And that feeling of entitlement is really dangerous because it's the feeling that people owe you resources because, right, particularly children. Well, they owe you resources because you have given things to them. In other words, it's a deposit that you're expecting withdrawals from automatically. And children owe you justice. They owe you a fair evaluation of your character. but they sure as heck don't owe you money back.
[1:14:34] That's as bad as saying to a woman on a date, well, you got to sleep with me because I bought you dinner. And it's like, well, you got to respect me as a mother because I bought you a birthday present. It's like, no, that's not transactional that way, if that makes sense.
[1:14:47] Yes, I heard you within this last week talk about how your mom said, I could have been so many things. I could have been a movie star. I could have, you know, without two kids. And my mother was beautiful. Like, even after five children, just absolutely just beautiful. And she would watch all my children during the day. And she thought she was like Erica. Like, she could have been, you know, a movie star had it not been for us five kids. And my dad, you know, not having enough money. And she had to go to work. It was just exactly that. We were... We were stopping her from her true destiny.
[1:15:24] Yeah so you owed her even more because you've got to compensate her for her lack of movie stardom right oh and then of course also um that that's where a lot of women end up fueling resentment towards husbands you know when you knocked me up and you gave me all these kids and now i can't be a movie star and it's just yeah it's a really uh it's a tragic lack of self-ownership you know women women choose to get pregnant i mean outside of rape, right? Women choose to get pregnant. They choose to engage in the behaviors that end up with pregnancy and blaming anybody else is incomprehensible to me.
[1:15:59] Yes. Well, you really helped me today. I appreciate it.
[1:16:02] You're very welcome. Thank you for the great call. I appreciate that. And I'm very sorry about what happened in your family. That's really, really tragic. I'm really sorry about that.
[1:16:11] Thank you.
[1:16:12] You are welcome. All right. Let me just go back here and check for, questions uh about the dream i'm not sure i remember it well enough vin says i have a question about one of your characters in the future forgive me account for the life of me recall his name right now he's the father of the two rough boys oh roman from the outside world i'm going to reread it soon because i've been thinking about it since reading it when you first released it he seems very interesting and realistic he actually reminds me of my own father what's not i haven't heard you speak much about this character what do you think of men like him, Yeah, the character Roman, a very fascinating character to me, a very pragmatic character who condones violence against children because he says civilization can't last and your children are going to be like the soft... Citizens of the Roman Empire who were cast out into the wilderness and died by the hundreds of thousands. And by coddling your children, you are not helping them be able to survive in a world that the civility of which cannot last because civilizations always sort of collapse and so on. And yeah, this is a sort of a primal, powerful, certain character that, you know, if you ever meet people, and of course I have them called in from time to time, people are just completely opposed to your perspective and opinion, and very strong in their belief systems.
[1:17:38] And the men who are certain of the necessity of violence, you know, so the certain in the necessity of violence, not from a moral standpoint, but just from a practical standpoint, and you can see in the aforementioned post about the woman beating her child, there are all these people are like, you know, beat them at home and then they won't go to jail in the streets or, you know, gentle parenting has been a complete disaster. Kids are entitled and selfish and so on and they can't function in the world. And so, you know, you've got to toughen up kids and you've got to, particularly boys, you've got to toughen them up and you've got to show them how the world works and you give them smaller consequences at home so they don't have worse consequences later on. And that's the default position of men throughout history. Throughout history, um.
[1:18:28] Throughout history, there was endless brutality. I mean, even if it wasn't a situation of war, but you're on a farm and you have some chickens, you get attached to the chickens. Oh, they're like my pets. And then some fox comes and rips their bodies apart. And you got to go and clean up the feathers and guts and bits and bones and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I remember when I was in Africa at the age of 15 or so, I went hunting, I shot a turkey buzzard, and um and ate it we ate it right hey does that taste good that's what you shot today i'm like i hope you took the buck shot out yes we did so there's a lot of quote brutality you know you see the the giant horse penises plunging into the the female horses and and uh the the um.
[1:19:17] Sometimes the the fowl will turn on some other fowl i remember when i peck it to death i remember when I was a kid, um, the, um, when the mother hamster was stressed, I thought she was eating the babies, but she was putting them in her cheek to protect them. But do you think that the mother is eating the babies? I mean, nature is rough, man. Nature is brutal. And Roman lives in nature and he's like, the city is an artificial environment that cannot last. You are raising your kids in a zoo and they're going to be turned loose in the wilds and they're just going to get destroyed. It is not a kindness. And so, yeah, he's just the default for most of human history. Where peace was not an option.
[1:20:00] Being owed love and respect, says James, for the category, that's definitely my parents, probably a lot of parents, right? So honor thy mother and thy father. So you create a category. This is how Christianity is sold to mothers and fathers is they say, well, your kids have to respect you. We'll command them to, right? So that's Platonism. Platonism is the category is more important than the person.
[1:20:22] You owe respect to the office of the presidency, not the actual president. You owe respect to the category called parents, not the actual parents. That the form, that the category, the concept is infinitely more important than the individuals within it.
[1:20:39] Alex says, my mother and grandmother would always just restate their positions in my family if they were confronted in any kind of meaningful way, i.e., I am your mother or I am your grandmother, as though deference to them was a foregone conclusion. Yeah, people love crawling into categories and saying, you owe me respect because of the category. Oh, they love creating categories. Such as well you're my kids right but the idea that your kids owe you something because you raised them is I mean you chose right you chose you chose, alright see any other questions, Someone says, I always felt like mine believed I owed her, a mother, I think, and it took every effort not to say, no, you had sex with my father,
[1:21:26] because that would have led to some sort of violence. Oh yeah, if you challenge the category, violence ensues. One day I yelled at her in tears saying, it feels like she just sees money signs on my forehead, and I'm an investment she's waiting to cash dividends on. Normally she never confirmed nor denied, but that time she said, yeah. It felt so good to tell her no years later when she asked me to start supporting our relatives. She sent money too.
[1:21:54] Well, this is the, what is it, the difference between Erica Kirk and Laura Luma? Laura Luma has a big beef. I don't know the details. I don't know whether it's justified or not with Marjorie Taylor Greene. And Laura Luma is like, nope, I wanted to suffer. Nope, I'm taking happiness in her fall. No, vengeance, vengeance, vengeance. And maybe some sort of Christian Judaism thing or whatever. But that is sort of the big, the big question. I am not a big fan of vengeance myself. You know, I'm not as far as, you know, a man who embarks on a journey of vengeance, but it big, big two graves. It's like, no, no, I prefer not to think about people. So I, you know, the people who've done me wrong, I have a mental ledger, as I've mentioned before. And if it's, you know, relatively, like if, let's say Bob, Bob did me wrong in the past and then there's a viral post that's negative towards Bob, yeah, I'll retweet it, yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm not gonna, so I remember, but I'm not gonna create a whole presentation and do this, that, the other, right? Because I'd rather do other things. So I don't pursue vengeance, but I don't forgive without people's apologies, right?
[1:23:09] Forgiveness I give to people who have apologized because that's justice, right? So I bet I don't, and I'm not saying this is right. I'm not, I'm just, I'm not saying this is some big philosophical, I'm right about this and everyone should do it this way. I'm just saying that for me, I'd rather focus on sort of the joys and happiness and positivity and productivity of life rather than pursuing a vengeance against people.
[1:23:34] And I generously, because I don't believe in hell, but I believe in the conscience. I believe in the conscience. And people who've done wrong suffer without me having to do anything. Now, I don't mind taking them down a few pegs socially if the opportunity arises that's pretty simple and easy, but I don't pursue vengeance in that kind of way. Again, I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, and, you know, I really haven't been that wronged as a whole. In fact, my de-platforming was protective. It was like when your body can't handle an infection, it just builds a cyst around it. And I think that's how it works. I'm not a.
[1:24:18] I, uh, I don't generally pursue vengeance, but I certainly won't support it. You know, like if somebody in my past who did me real wrong, uh, came to me for a help of some kind, like, I remember there was a guy, uh, he had a, uh, he had a show, the show didn't do very well. He ended up really broke and he asked me for some help. And he's like, well, we got to help each other, you know, we people who think and reason. And I'm like, listen, I mean, it's certainly a possibility. Just show me where you helped me when I was deplatformed. Show me where, I mean, even just one tweet of support, you know, it shouldn't have happened or he's a good guy or this is wrong. Anything, anything. Right. And he got really angry. Right. Now, if he just said, you know what? You're right. I didn't support you. It's not great. I've certainly learn better i guess it's not the best time to ask you for help when i didn't help you in the past but you know if you could i'm sorry i've learned you know okay that's fine you know then i'm not asking for people to be perfect lord knows i'm not but.
[1:25:27] I know, just got angry, so I didn't help him. Didn't help him. And I've helped a lot of people behind the scenes, but no, I don't. No, it's not like I take pleasure. I would much rather he'd taken the mature route rather than getting weird and mean. But I, you know, people have free will. But I feel absolutely no obligation. And I actually feel a lot of contempt for people who try to manipulate me by my moral principles. Right? I wish that this was more common, you know. So if people call me out for a moral hypocrisy or a moral wrong that I'm doing, fantastic. You know, I always want to, you know, I don't get mad when the GPS says you missed your turnoff, right? Great. I want to get there. Recalculate away. Tell me the better way to get there or a way to get there instead. So I don't mind. I think that's great. I appreciate that's an act of affection and almost love to correct me if I get something wrong and make a mistake.
[1:26:19] But people who say, well, you should support me because we should support each other while they've never supported me in the past, I have bottomless contempt for that. And I will not, I will not lift a fucking finger to help that at all. Because then you're taking my moral values and using them to manipulate me. You're using them, you're using my moral values to exploit me. And it's like, fuck no, my moral values are here to protect me, particularly from people like you. And the most dangerous illnesses are the ones that use your immune system against you, right? In some ways, right? Or at least bypass it, like cancer and so on, right?
[1:27:00] So, yeah, I'm very aware when people try to use my moral values against me. And I will never, ever. I mean, I won't lift a finger to hurt people, but I certainly won't lift a finger to help them at all.
[1:27:21] You know, when, when I remember it used to be in the past, when I was, you know, in my early fifties or whatever, people would say, you know, you know, screw you for, for treating your mother badly. You should respect your elders. And I'm like, bro, I'm 20 years older than you. Why are you saying screw me? And I'm your old, I'm your elder. I mean, so again, it's just people who try to use your moral values to exploit and control you. That's about the basest form of corruption that there is, and it is just appalling. It was just appalling. All right. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you again to Kerry for a great call, and I'm very, very sorry about what happened with your family. I'm not even going to say freedomain.com/donate, since you guys are already subscribers, but you know, little Esther wouldn't hurt. But yeah, shop.freedomain.com. All right. Have yourself a beautiful day, my friends. Thanks for a great chat. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
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