Philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages in a candid and heart-wrenching conversation with a mother grappling with the complexities of her relationships with her children, particularly her estranged daughter and young son. The caller, having been introduced to Stefan's work by a friend, reaches out for guidance on the turmoil she faces as a single parent, revealing a layered narrative of past traumas, poor choices in romantic partners, and the struggle to parent effectively.
As the conversation unfolds, the caller delves into her history, recounting a tumultuous upbringing marked by abuse and neglect, which has profoundly impacted her approach to parenting. She candidly shares that her 19-year-old daughter has distanced herself from her, living with the maternal grandfather, a fact that forces the caller to confront her past mistakes and perceived failures as a parent. Through this exploration, Stefan encourages her to unpack the layers of her experiences, identifying moments of hurt and guilt that have led to anger and frustration in her parenting style, particularly—yelling and using harsh words like "stupid" towards her children.
Stefan masterfully navigates the conversation, guiding the caller to reflect on the roots of her anger, which he suggests may stem from unresolved grief and self-loathing. The discussion highlights the cyclical nature of violence in families and how the responses to stress or trauma can perpetuate feelings of inadequacy or failure. Stefan challenges the caller to consider the implications of her verbal outbursts, noting that while she offers herself compassion as a "work in progress," she fails to extend the same grace to her children, which may cause lasting harm to their self-esteem.
The episode takes a poignant turn as Stefan posits that the solutions to her struggles start with recognizing the "permission" she gives herself to yell at her kids, much like someone might excuse theft in desperate times. He emphasizes that the emotional turmoil and regret she feels after these outbursts indicate a deeper conflict between her desires to parent well and her unresolved past traumas. Furthermore, they discuss the importance of breaking the cycle of blame and realizing that children, much like adults, need compassion and understanding, particularly when they act out of curiosity or immaturity.
As the dialogue progresses, the mother expresses her desire to break free from errors of her past, yearning for a future where she not only improves her relationship with her children but also rediscovers her self-worth. Stefan offers practical advice, urging her to view parenting as a developmental journey rather than a pathway laden with failures. He even goes so far as to offer financial assistance for therapy sessions, reinforcing the idea that reaching out for help is a strength, not a weakness.
Towards the end of the episode, they touch upon the necessity of practicing kindness—not only towards her children but also towards herself. The caller leaves the conversation contemplating the framework for a healthier relationship with herself, her children, and future partners, realizing that self-forgiveness and growth must come before she can truly raise her children in a nurturing environment.
This episode serves as a heartfelt reminder of the struggles parents face and the lasting impacts of their actions on their children. With Stefan's compassionate approach, the caller is left with a roadmap for healing and a newfound understanding of the importance of self-compassion in the rich journey of parenthood.
0:01 - Introduction to Parenting Struggles
1:11 - Isolation and Fear
2:18 - Reflections on Parenting Mistakes
5:38 - The Impact of Past Relationships
8:48 - Confronting Abuse and Violence
9:43 - The Challenge of Parenting Alone
15:11 - Seeking Support from Family
17:16 - Navigating Work-Life Balance
22:03 - The Strain of Long Hours
28:01 - The Dangers of Unhealthy Relationships
34:28 - Coping with Trauma and Grief
38:51 - The Burden of Responsibility
54:48 - The Impact of COVID-19
1:00:31 - Navigating Teenage Relationships
1:06:50 - Accountability in Parenting Choices
1:12:51 - Coping with Isolation
1:13:32 - Therapy and Healing
1:15:20 - Confronting Past Relationships
1:15:36 - Unplanned Pregnancy
1:21:39 - Toxic Friendships
1:32:52 - Navigating Dating Challenges
1:44:19 - Understanding Self-Worth
1:55:41 - Yelling and Parenting
2:17:13 - Seeking Help and Support
[0:00] All right. I'm all ears. How can I help?
[0:02] Well, you were actually recommended to me. I got introduced to your podcast by someone who I used to work for. He spoke very highly of you. And it's in relation to parenting. My two kids, particularly, have had trouble...
[0:26] I guess my fear is, so I have a 19-year-old girl, and she wants nothing to do with me. She is staying with her grandpa, and it has been a very humbling road to point out mistakes I've made. She is holding a grudge against me, and I also have a three-year-old boy who I'm now raising on my own, who is my surprise. And I am fearful with watching how it played out with my daughter as she has moved out of the house that I'm going to, I guess, make similar mistakes or that I'm not good enough to be a parent to him.
[1:11] And adding in, of course, I feel quite isolated too.
[1:16] I was against all the mandates and all the craziness that had gone on here in Ontario. Sorry, I guess if I can say that in Canada. And I just felt, it's isolated me too, because I feel quite more alone with the way I view things. And it's also sort of made me feel too alone. And so I feel like I'm alone raising a child versus being able to feel like I have a community this time around. Despite the fact that I feel like the community I had maybe had failed me or failed themselves with the way things had gone and seeing how the community felt about everything. So I guess I'm not quite sure. I feel alone. I feel scared. And I feel like a raging parent on my poor son. I take it out. I'm passive for a while, and then I rage. And I want to stop that cycle.
[2:07] Okay. Okay. Well, I appreciate that. That's very honest and direct. And do you want to tell me a little bit about what happened with your daughter? I have a daughter who's just about to turn 17. So it's in the neck of the woods.
[2:19] And if you'd like to tell me what happened there, I think that would be a good place to start.
[2:25] Okay, sure. So I, well, so with raising her, I guess I'll just give a very brief history. I was a single mom with her. There was unhealthy aggression in her youth, so I escaped a very unsafe situation. And I think I did well. I was in my 20s. I was 21 when I had her. But she formed a very, very deep relationship with my father because he was the one to mainly watch her while I worked all the time. And in saying that, my father, I don't know if I should say, I guess despite doing therapy, I'd still get a bit triggered by some things with my father and ways of caraging. So, yeah.
[3:19] Where my daughter says that I had made my biggest mistakes was, one, she said that I wasn't there enough. And two, I was there more, I was more present when she turned, when she was 10, turning 11, for an unfortunate circumstance. Um, something, um, some abuse had happened when I was working, um, under the watch of, of my father. And she was mad at me because, um, I became very triggered by what had happened because I realized in supporting her and giving up everything for her and trying to protect her, um, that I realized that no one had done that for me. It was a realization.
[4:07] Um and in those years between 11 to 13 we had moved to a shelter um I had to pull us out of the house we were living in I was doing the best that I could as a mom but um I unfortunately because of my unhealthy way of being able to express myself with my child and being able to set boundaries which I've always struggled with I would explode on my daughter verbally, I would explode when she would attack my character or my parenting it was just you know I guess I felt I see it in retrospect and intellectually I can see that it's hard to expect our kids to appreciate it but I was just so angry being alone um.
[4:55] And she just seems to, she's made it clear that she's holding a grudge against me for all the times I had been angry and snapping that I should have been more supportive and been there as a better parent. And so she is holding it against me for my breakouts against her verbally and not being able to be supportive. She thinks I wasn't supportive enough. I did ensure that she had therapy and has always made sure that she had a therapist. But yeah, that's what's hitting me hard is I guess I did not have the capability to provide that.
[5:31] I'm, yeah, I'm very sorry. That's a very tough situation. I guess I just would
[5:35] like to understand, well, I mean, a couple of things pop into my mind. The first is tell me a little bit about your daughter's father and what happened in your late teens or early twenties or however long you were together.
[5:48] So he, we were together, we were only together three months or four months before getting pregnant. I was 20 and he was 23. And it was a very kind of, I guess, forced, right? We were forced without knowing each other to try to make something work to begin with.
[6:09] Sorry, sorry, hang on, hang on. Sorry, what do you mean by forced? I'm a little, little alarmed. I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
[6:15] Well, we felt that was the responsible thing to do. because I did not want to abort the pregnancy. Of course, I wanted to keep my child. So we were forced to move in together.
[6:25] But you had, sorry to be so blunt, but you had unprotected sex. Is that how you got pregnant? And why would you, it's a general question, right? Why would you have unprotected sex in a couple of months relationship?
[6:39] Well, I mean, I just didn't, I don't know. I was just an impulsive girl. I've had a lot of, I've had a lot of, I guess, I don't know. I don't, in fact, I was not, well, I guess I should add, I was on birth control. I was taking birth control without missing a single pill and I still got pregnant.
[6:59] Not missing a single pill. Really? I mean, that's unusual. You know that, right?
[7:05] Oh, absolutely. It's 1%. It was on, my friend was on the exact same medication that year. It was called Aless. It was supposed to be a low hormone one for safe for, I have an autoimmune disease, so I was, it was supposed to be safer for someone like me, but it was a much lower hormone one than all the others. And my friend got pregnant that exact same year on the same pill. Yeah, I was that special for sedge.
[7:31] Okay, got it. Hey, it happens. All right. So tell me a little bit about this young man who got you pregnant.
[7:40] Um, so he was, he was just, he worked in a restaurant. He was, um, I had just gotten into community college. Um, and he worked at a restaurant. I don't know. He just, we met online. It was my first online relationship too, but we had met online. We had talked a lot online. Um, he also was a single parent actually already of two children. So, but I thought he was a very involved dad. Again, I was basing it on just us seeing each other from a long distance relationship. And when we moved in together, I started to see a lot of dishonesty. He definitely flirted with a lot of women. And so, of course, challenged my self-worth. Um, and, uh, yeah, I just, whenever I confronted him, um, with that or, or seeing things pop up that like emails or messages from women, I would confront him and that's where, uh, violence would take place. Um, and I wasn't, um, yeah.
[8:49] Well, so whenever, when I would see messages and ask him, I would suggest that it's inappropriate what was being said. There were sexual innuendos being said and jokes, and I would ask him about it and tell him I was uncomfortable, and it would be none of my business. He would tell me it would be none of my business. And when I would, I would be a little, I was quite blunt. I would say that it is my business and things like being head-butted or I was pregnant with our daughter, so I would be thrown around.
[9:21] I'm sorry. And listen, I know it's a long time ago, but I know also people are nervous and all of that, but it's so not funny, of course, to be pregnant and thrown around that the laughter or the giggling, which again, I sympathize with and I understand, but it is a bit disconcerting.
[9:37] It's how i deal with it i'm not very comfortable with crying i'm very uh laughing helps me fight tears.
[9:43] Right i mean but it is it is to be on the receiving end of laughter about such you know terribly sad and difficult things is just a bit disconcerting i'm not saying you've got a ball or cry or anything like that but if you could hold off on the laughter that would be i would prefer it if you don't mind i would i would appreciate it okay okay so when was he first violent um um.
[10:08] Oh, I don't.
[10:10] I mean, was it in weeks or days or months? Because you were only together four months, right?
[10:14] It was months into the pregnancy. Like, I'd say maybe, oh, it got really bad. I'd say maybe it was around six months pregnant, and that would be about nine months into the relationship.
[10:25] Okay. Were there any red flags in him before you got together?
[10:34] Oh, for sure. Well, violence-wise, no. I had never seen that at all before we lived together. But the infidelity, yes. That was right when I found out I was pregnant. Right that weekend, a woman had contacted me telling me that within the online community that we were a part of, she knew we were together. And she had contacted me letting me know that he, literally the day after he found out we were pregnant, that he tried to meet up with her to be intimate with her. So I knew right away that he was obviously not invested in this relationship. But I was desperate, I guess. I didn't have a good family support. My dad, when I told him, he forced me. He also put pressure on me that I needed to do what was right in his mind. Sorry, I'm trying not to laugh. So, yeah, I told my father. the first time that he had headbutted me and hit me. And my father asked me what I did to deserve it.
[11:42] I'm so sorry.
[11:44] Oh, sorry, sorry. No, that's fine.
[11:46] I sympathize and I'm very sorry. It's heartbreaking to hear, but go on.
[11:54] Um, so I was stuck. We had moved to, so I should say we started in a big city and we moved to a small town at that time where I knew nobody. Um, so I just felt like I had to, I didn't know what to do, I guess. I also, with my autoimmune disease, my coverage for my insulin, it's diabetic, my coverage for my insulin would be gone. So I was just, I was very anxious. It just was a vulnerable time. So I stayed with him despite that for about a year. When my daughter was a year old. So that's the time when my daughter would not see him anymore. On his own doing because I had placed charges finally because she got hurt. He had whipped a phone at me in the middle, of course, of discussing another conversation. He was having an inappropriate conversation with a female on the phone and he whipped the phone at me and it hit her at the baby. So that was the time I was able to leave because it was okay for him to hit me, but not my child. So that's when I finally told my father that I was going to leave the city and if he wasn't going to support me, this was the last straw. And he was scared.
[13:20] Sorry, what did he say when you said, look, my boyfriend has harmed the baby. I need to get out. And what did your father say?
[13:28] He seemed to finally care. He didn't care if it was me, but he did care about my daughter. So, and he was also scared of losing us because he was alone here. The reason why I moved out to the small city from where I had a lot more supportive family was because, um, Because my dad, I was scared for finances and stuff. It made sense financially, but I thought I would have some good, of course, familial support.
[13:57] But it didn't work that way. So he was scared to be alone himself. So he contacted me while staying at my mom's for a couple of weeks and said that he would support me. I gave a timeline for my daughter's father to leave the house we were living in. He had two weeks to get out, and he did follow that. He got out by the second week, and my dad did some enforcing on that end. So I felt like I was being supported. And that is the only—and from there, my daughter's birthday party was coming up. I guess I should say it was right before her first birthday, because he did show up for her first birthday, and then I had not seen him since then. Well, since, you know, the court stuff, I had called the police, I involved, I told them what had happened. And I didn't even place the charges, you know, the officer placed them for me because she was tired of me not doing things. So he just resented me for that. And he was embarrassed or scared because it was a small town. So he had gone back home to where his family was.
[15:06] Okay, got it. And then?
[15:12] And then, so I was with my father. My father helped me while I found work. I just ended my maternity leave. So that's where he came in to play, I guess, that major male role. He came in at that moment because i as soon as i got a job i got all these uh because i dropped out of college so i was just getting all these small jobs to make up for i guess two incomes at the time and, when going to court unfortunately because i had no idea of what um dad was doing um until i could provide that they would give me nothing or demand nothing of judge. So I just was fearful of involving him or pushing too much or that abuse. So I just, I continued to work. I got a job, eventually a career as a group home worker. So I worked with kids who have been abused. Yeah, really, really tough kids that most of society have shunned. I worked with some of the toughest cases with the privately owned company that I worked for. So it was hard. I would work, I basically lived at work sometimes 80-hour weeks. And so my daughter...
[16:29] Sorry, why were you doing 80-hour weeks? My apologies if I missed that.
[16:34] Yeah, well, so these kids, we are responsible to be their home. So... How it normally would work, but I would work over that, is that 80 hours would be the idea that you would get every other week off. However, when we were short-staffed, we would not get that 40 hours off, that we were in a meet. I guess I just, I didn't know how to say no to money and to working and providing. I always felt like that's something I just was tired. I was also scared of asking for help from my father. I guess I should add that,
[17:11] that when I asked for help from my dad, he would record everything. Every bus ticket, every piece of food was always recorded on a receipt. Sorry. I was terrified to ask for help.
[17:26] But he recorded it with the idea that you would pay him back or something?
[17:31] I don't know. I just, I didn't, he never said, like he would offer to get groceries or offer bus tickets. But I guess I should fast forward. This would be a few years, three years later, two years later. He had, when I wanted to move out of this city for a relationship that I was getting serious after two years of dating, I wanted to move closer to family and felt safe to move out. My dad had taken a paper and he had, that's where I knew, sorry, that's where I had learned. That he had taken a record of everything he had done for me um he just wrote down every bus ticket everything and he said it was a shaming me for leaving that he had done all this for me and that i wasn't to leave um and.
[18:23] Sorry is that because i mean who was taking care of your daughter when you were working these 80.
[18:28] Hour weeks, My dad.
[18:31] Oh, so your dad was very close to your daughter.
[18:35] Yes.
[18:35] And then you were leaving.
[18:38] Well, just to... But yes, because I was alone. Because this is the toxicity, though, in the matter is that, as you can see, it was okay for me to get punched and hit. But my daughter has been put on a pedestal. And this is where I think a lot of the challenges have come, is that, I have taught her and she has watched that it's okay to treat me that way. But she was held on a different regard, a higher regard than myself. And I needed to be around more healthy relationships. And I was hoping to go to Toronto closer to my mother, who lived there at the time, and my siblings. And the relationship I was in was not unhealthy. And that was it. So that is what I felt was better for my daughter to be around.
[19:31] And sorry, again, if you can stay off the places. So how far away were you moving your daughter away from your father?
[19:40] It was about an hour and a half.
[19:44] Okay. And were you leaving your job?
[19:47] Yeah.
[19:49] Okay. And at your job, they knew you had a daughter, right?
[19:56] Yeah.
[19:57] So, did they ever say, gee, you're working 80 hours a week, that's not ideal for your daughter?
[20:05] Oh, no. They, yeah, no, this company is, it's unfortunately, it's privately owned. It's not city ran, but it's city funded. So a lot of us, even if we were sick, we were shamed even if we were sick to not to come into work because our, our kids who are, you know, group home kids, they would be violent at times. And it just, yeah, it just, there was no priority, but they did not care.
[20:35] Did you get paid at least hourly or were you on salary?
[20:39] No, I was on hourly. I was on hourly for sure. And, um, at the time, you know, 2000, like in the early, I guess mid, no, early 2000s, it was, it was like, you know, three or $4 above minimum wage. And with a girl who didn't get to finish college yet, I went to college later, but at that time it felt great that I could make a few dollars above minimum wage. So I was willing to, and that's kind of, I think the way they hooked a lot of people to do work beyond, you know, being sick and all these things is because it was a bit more money, right?
[21:11] And how were, I mean, was that tough with regards to your daughter? I mean, did you miss her a lot or was there that tension?
[21:17] Yes. Well, how it worked though is that, so I just, it was about quality, not quantity. So I, I changed my life around. So we would go to the YMCA during the day. So I didn't work during the day. I worked afternoons and then I would work 16 hours on a Saturday, 16 hours on a Sunday, and I would have to sleep overnight one of those nights on the weekend. So during the day is what I had time with her. So before she was school age, we would go to the YMCA and we would go swimming together. We would do crafts together. I would do a lot with her during the day.
[21:55] No, but it's still 80 hours a week, right?
[21:57] Yes.
[21:58] So, that's not much time with your daughter?
[22:02] No.
[22:03] Okay. All right. And for how many years did you work that job?
[22:10] Uh, on and off, I had taken a couple of stress leaves, but, uh, about 13 years.
[22:16] 13 years. Now, 13 years, was it 13 years of 80 hour work weeks or did that sort of come and go?
[22:23] Well, no. So, uh, there were, I'd say about a third or maybe half of that was, were those hours. The other half, I was able, um, to get daytime work, like daytime hours. Um but i would end up picking up a lot of extra hours to cover rent and such because i still just couldn't make things make ends meet on just my own income so i would always do that.
[22:55] Okay got it got it okay so when you left how old was your daughter when you left and moved an hour and a half away from your dad?
[23:06] She was three.
[23:07] Three, okay. And what happened to the relationship between your dad and your daughter when you moved?
[23:16] So we would still have visits. I would ask him to come visit or we would go drive to that city to visit. It would be, it depended on my father. Sometimes it'd be two weekends a month or a weekend a month. We would drive back.
[23:33] Okay. So your daughter's bond was quite strong with your father. Yeah. And did your daughter have any challenges with not seeing your father nearly as much?
[23:49] No, because not, not visibly. I mean, at that age, of course, they can't really articulate much.
[23:54] No, but they can act out.
[23:55] Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, there was no acting out. But to be fair, the relationship that I had now that that fell apart for, you know, it was far less. I guess you could say I graduated from one state of unhealthy to another. It was from infidelity. That's the reason why the relationship had we broke up.
[24:16] I'm sorry, infidelity. Sorry, who's who's infidelity?
[24:21] I did realize until living, when we moved together, that there was a whole secret life that was being lived.
[24:26] Sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm just, I'm just lost track. This isn't the first, this isn't the father of your child. This isn't your father, obviously, but, but this is the guy that you moved to be with.
[24:38] Yes.
[24:40] And then it turned out that he had, he was, he was unfaithful in the same way, or I guess in a similar way that the father of your daughter was unfaithful. Is that right?
[24:51] Yes.
[24:51] Okay and how did you find that out.
[24:53] Um it was again through through phone messages there was something uh it was through he was having this relationship with uh an intimate relationship with the the mother of his his children that um yeah i i just i wasn't in it would be starting to become uncomfortable that i wasn't able to come to events or dinners or whatever or my daughter and i would be staying at home sometimes and or it just it started to make me feel very excluded um and.
[25:26] And I learned through messages and eventually speaking to the mom that they had been, I guess there was intimacy or it was an unhealthy relationship that they carried on despite just being together for two years. And it was she had outright admitted it to me. So I felt obviously it was hard because, so going back to my father and such, with seeing any acting out or behaviors. When we were there and I mean over two years she had been seeing him I waited six months before I introduced her to him and and when we did and and this is the long distance dating um he was a very very good father very involved father um very affectionate very present um and he was still respectable towards me as well like there was no mean words no disrespect no yelling none of that And so Elizabeth, sorry, so my daughter had, I noticed positivity. She got along very much so with the siblings. She liked it and she enjoyed having step-siblings and being in that scenario. She enjoyed that family. She enjoyed that. So I did not see any instance of grieving or behavioral stuff that I could attach to that because she just was, she enjoyed.
[26:52] I guess the family there, the family concept. So I did not get to see that.
[26:59] Okay. And what happened with this cheating guy that you and your daughter were living with, right?
[27:06] So... When I had brought it up to him, he had blamed me for finding the information and interrogating, and he wanted to take control, I guess, and wanted to—well, he said he didn't think he did much wrong. But I don't know. I know there was a lot of gaslighting that I shouldn't have looked at the message and talked to the mom And, and then the relationship was, but he said that he did, he took control saying he didn't want to be in a relationship and didn't give an apology for, for the infidelity. So I just, um, I couldn't stay. That was it. I mean, we had lived together. So unfortunately it fell apart after two years, it had fallen apart.
[27:57] So then again, so we moved back to the small town. That's where we ended up. I didn't stay with the family. um there was no place for me to stay with the family that was closer to unfortunately um so I moved back to where and my job that's why the job was on and off for the 13 there was an off and that's an on again because the job took me back um it was an immediate job to return back and to get on my feet and to get home with my daughter when when I moved back to to a small town.
[28:30] Okay and you said that something had happened between your daughter and your father.
[28:39] Um no um no um so i'm not sure what.
[28:44] Oh i just i'm sorry i'm sorry if i misunderstood i thought something negative it happened some abusive thing it happened between your father and.
[28:51] Your No, no, no. Sorry, it was under his watch. It wasn't him.
[28:56] What happened?
[28:59] So in, so when she was about 10, we had just, it was very bad time. It was just, it was a horrendous year. That year we had just came back from South America to visit my mom's family for the first time. Cause I wasn't allowed to, both my daughter and I were not allowed to speak Spanish. We were not allowed to acknowledge my Spanish side as a resentment my father held against my mother for a long time. And this was sort of a, it was a very powerful trip. So it's important to mention that because my daughter felt so, uh, we both felt like it was such a refreshing trip and my mom had subsidized the trip for us. Um, so it was, so we just had come back from that. And my father, so I was working, so I was working again. I promised myself I wouldn't, but I went back to working a lot of hours. Um, and a lot of it had to do with shame. I guess I should, it's hitting me now remembering the ways my father would shame me um about not having enough money or if my car broke down i was always in a scenario where i would borrow money and i would pay him back but the fact that i would borrow it always came with shame um so i wanted to be right free from that so i immediately jumped into working a long weekend and it was that weekend that it happened i at this point i had worked i don't even know like 120 hours instead of 80 it was completely unhealthy.
[30:22] And when I got back, my dad had not been home. My daughter was 10 at the time and he was not home. And my daughter was sitting on the couch and he was across the street with our neighbor. And I guess they were drinking. The neighbor had offered my father some drinks. And in doing so, I asked my daughter, I came in, of course, I was cross with her thinking she knew better or she was playing grandpa to stay up later. And, uh, as I was crossed with her and, and raised my voice that she should be in bed. She, uh, she blurted out that the neighbor had, had abused, like touched her.
[31:02] Inappropriately touched my daughter. And I mean, I just, I apologized immediately, of course. And I was so angry. I felt shame. I felt because, again, I was working and that it wouldn't have happened if I was a certain story. I was angry that my father would be so selfish. And I mean, that would represent the trust that was there with my daughter and myself, that she could—I know it's myself and many kids don't like to admit those things, or don't feel safe, or don't feel validated. And the fact that she told me the same day that it happened was comforting that she could confide in me.
[31:51] As soon as they came home, I confronted him. I was so angry. I'd asked a friend to come over, an acquaintance from work, actually, because I said I didn't want to be alone. And they sat on the couch. They said, I don't know what I'll do. So they were there, and I just yelled, and my daughter had heard me. She told me later that she had heard me yelling at him and confronting him. And he looked like a drunk deer in headlights and said there was a misunderstanding. I told him to get the F out of the house. And my dad was so drunk. And he didn't apologize. He was just drunk out of his mind. And he just went downstairs. He avoided the situation.
[32:36] So that's what led to us. Eventually, we were, at that point, I was splitting the mortgage and the bills to the idea of trying to invest in the home that I would take the home. In later years and take care of my dad that was our agreement with this home and this whole situation and uh my dad refused to put me on the mortgage and refused to acknowledge it and that he's done a lot for me and I said that we needed to move because uh because my daughter wouldn't leave the house she was scared and she just he just felt too uncomfortable with, um selling and finances money's always been more important so i just moved to the shelter because i couldn't stand my daughter not feeling safe um then i took time off of work um and then it was a hard year for both of us but before i started to become very cross and i was emotionally volatile i would say um i just think the whole scenario had triggered me and i think i was never validated i I was abused horribly as a child, so I...
[33:46] I just thought I did the best for my daughter because I know what it was like not to feel validated. But I still felt like a failure, and I think I took it out on my child. I took it out on her a lot because she talked to me in a condescending way as my father would. And I couldn't quite separate that in moments of feeling shame. And I feel guilty. But I wasn't sure how. I don't know. I don't know how to navigate. I look back in retrospect, and I say things I wish I would have done, but I still don't know if I would have had the tools.
[34:23] I'm not sure how. You just could stop those reactions in those moments. So the year was hard for both of us because moving forward, we then had gotten into not one, but two car accidents of being rear-ended.
[34:40] Oh, gosh.
[34:41] And then my mom passed away suddenly. After that amazing trip, she passed away in her sleep. So it was a lot to embrace in a year or to endure. Even um and i wasn't so yeah things have been difficult and our relationship had not has not been the same but she's again i know my my worst i just i know that a lot of the time she would she would so she would visit grandpa while we were at the shelter no men are allowed there and my daughter would want to spend time of course with grandpa and seeing him um i would initiate i would try my daughter i know my dad is not the type to ever apologize or to validate emotions so i, i worked hard to suggest that he would go to school or to help her with you know kids would bully her um i guess i should add that when i worked on days uh from the ages about six to nine um.
[35:45] My work would allow, because we worked our butts off, they would allow me to slip away sometimes for school events. Or I used to do culture nights with my daughter around six or seven. So I would go to school with her and be a regular part of school, which helped stop bullying. I would make it a point every week that I would teach the kids with my daughter about a different country, like we were learning, and bring food. And kids would actually treat her differently. And when I stopped and when I couldn't, when I went back to working evenings for more money, my father, of course, did not do that. And this was right before this had happened. So I asked my father to do that to help her and to build trust with her. And I mention this because As time has gone on and as my daughter has said things to me when we have had verbal arguments she has.
[36:49] Made it aware that my father feels the same way she does. And I don't know how much truth there is, but it made me feel at that point. And from seeing the history of my relationship with my father that I wonder, it made me feel, I guess, betrayed. I feel betrayal. I feel that I tried, despite I feel like he had failed as being that step-in parent or that strong grandparent in that moment and not validating her that I tried to help him. And to feel, to support these angry views against myself or about myself, it hurts, I guess, and furthers that isolating feeling. So that's who she's staying with now. My daughter is staying with my father. I mean, she's now 19. She didn't want to go to college. And there's money set aside for her to go, but she's, um, yeah, she just said, I don't know. And my father doesn't, I don't, he, he doesn't want to set boundaries. He doesn't have rules. Um, and he, I guess he wants to be her, her close friend, but he, he's afraid that she's going to move out on her own. And so he's not, and that's been difficult. Um, yeah.
[38:10] And it's just, yeah, I guess I just, I'm in a stage of feeling not validated. And I don't know what, I guess I'm just not sure how to grieve. I guess this, how the relationship has gone. And to lack the support, I just feel very, I guess, lost. I feel like a failure. I feel shame. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't, it's hard for me to think of this because, And I have tried, despite working all those hours, I really tried my best to counteract the fact that I was constantly working.
[38:51] And also because I just never allowed myself to date for many years after that. Um i just i kind of took on the role that my both my parents had taken on from their divorce isn't they just hated the opposite sex and didn't want to date anyone thinking that it would all go wrong and i guess i as much as i didn't want to do that i did do that myself and stay single and i know that a two-parent family is of course better than one and um i i of course put my daughter and myself through that and not capable of healing that right.
[39:24] Okay um sorry so i don't want to Interrupt if you're in the middle of saying something.
[39:29] Nope, nope.
[39:30] And you said that you were mistreated as a child. And what happened there?
[39:36] Um, okay. So when I was, I can't recall all of my age, I was about four. I was, um, there was some ancestral abuse from my half, uh, sibling, my, my, my brother had, uh, put on inappropriate videos and, and basically mimicked them. And when I was four, I don't even remember all of it, could they? Well, I blocked it out. I kept that a secret. I did not feel safe. I just, I don't know. I was so little. I just know that I was taught to be ashamed, though. I was a very highly sexualized girl, a little girl, because no one knew what was going on with me. Um so i was always shamed for you know doing things to myself and not being private about things but um i had to learn through therapy that it's not my fault and i'm.
[40:40] So very sorry how how did this child this semi-monster how.
[40:47] Did he how did he end up in your environment well we live We all lived together on the same roof. I don't remember. All I remember is we were in his room. My brother is 12 years older than me. So I guess that would make him 15, 16 at the time.
[41:02] Right.
[41:03] So I don't know. I think people were downstairs or watching TV. I was in his room.
[41:11] I'm sorry, but he came through your mother, your father?
[41:18] My mother. It was on my mother's side.
[41:20] Your mother, okay.
[41:21] Yeah, my father adopted them when they married. I have a brother and sister from her first marriage when she was in South America.
[41:28] Okay, and he was how much older?
[41:33] I'm sorry, 11 years older than me.
[41:35] Gosh, oh gosh. So I also assume that he himself went through some pretty terrible things as well.
[41:41] Yes. Well, I've learned over time with, you know, my mother's death, I learned that there was a lot of, on the Hispanic side of the family, there was a lot of ancestral abuse for generations. Right. So, yeah. So there was that. And then a couple of years later, my parents had divorced. And my mom had left my dad for someone else. And that someone else had also abused me.
[42:09] And how did that.
[42:10] Was that sexual.
[42:11] Abuse or some other kind of abuse yeah.
[42:12] There was yeah there was sexual gosh it was yeah i'm sorry you.
[42:18] Said from the hispanic side what do you it was that your mother's side yes.
[42:22] Sorry yes my dad is from the states yeah they both they both came here in the late 60s he escaped the vietnam and my mom escaped the pinochet regime oh.
[42:31] Okay so your Your father is Vietnamese?
[42:38] No, he just escaped the Vietnam draft, I guess. Oh, I see.
[42:44] Okay, so your father's white and your mother is Hispanic.
[42:48] Yes.
[42:48] Okay, and the sexual abuse came from the Hispanic side? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is sadly a little common in the Hispanic community. Okay. All right. So, uh, what about, um, how long were your parents together?
[43:06] Uh, I guess five years, maybe six years. They were, they got married before I was born. Um, and I don't know how long they dated before I was born, to be honest. But I, and I was five when they broke up or turning six. So somewhere around there.
[43:22] Okay. Got it. And do you know what split them up?
[43:28] Um there were a lot i don't know i mean i guess i can be thankful that was something that i despite maybe to make i don't know i went through the abuse but i don't recall being around a lot of verbal fights i don't know exactly what it was i know later there were they both i guess they did tell me a couple things in between i know i think there was a suggestion of my mom's suspected infidelity of my father and my mom in the end left with somebody. So I didn't know how to process that. And my father also used to drink a lot. I never got to see it, but I saw it in later years. And as I grew as an older kid, I did see that he was a weekend binger and sometimes in the evenings. And so I guess there were some violent moments from my own father that I never witnessed, but I found out from my mother when I was a teenager that he had, been abusive, so that drove her into another man's arms.
[44:31] Okay. And, How were you disciplined, if you were disciplined by your parents?
[44:43] So I will say with my mother, she's never yelled at me. She's never even said a harsh word to me. But my mom was also not very present. My father had custody of me. He got custody because of the way she had done things. It was kidnapping. And it was a very harsh way of taking me. Um, so, uh, so my dad did most of the disciplining and my father is, I can tell you outright that I, I mirror a lot of his way of disciplining, which I know the effects of, this is the hard part is he is a, like myself, passive aggressive, um, extremely passive aggressive. And he would take out his anger at home on kids.
[45:29] So what do you mean by passive-aggressive is usually when you don't directly take out your anger, but you provoke anger in others?
[45:37] Well, he would let it build up, I guess, is the point.
[45:39] Oh, so he was a passive-aggressive out in the world and then openly aggressive at home. Okay, got it. Okay. And so how would that manifest? How would that show up?
[45:50] Uh it would just be exposed it's kind of how i act now i hate it in myself i absolutely hate it in myself but it's just habitual it's like oh you know to give examples i was i was a very persistent stubborn girl um when i wanted to go outside and play my father found it very inconvenient that i wanted to play outside every day uh because he wanted to sleep my father was a night owl he was an English professor. He used to teach ESL. Actually, that's how he met my mom. He taught ESL in the big city at a college. And so he would be up all night marking papers and sleep during when he got home from work. It was just a habit of his. He would have a huge long nap. So I would like to go out and play. And so I would pester and pester him. But because he felt he wanted to sleep and not be responsible for me, I guess was the idea that it was shameful. I was taught to be ashamed for wanting to go socialize. And he said that I would...
[46:47] Well, that sort of reminds me of your inaccessibility to your own daughter a little bit. Like your father was sleeping and you were working 80 hours a week. Okay. So, sorry, go ahead.
[47:02] Well, I just, with the, sorry, with the sleep, sorry, I'm just trying to register that. With my dad sleeping with the 8-0s, I just don't know what the sleeping, what you're referring to, I guess, the sleeping with my dad.
[47:23] Oh, sorry, sorry if I was unclear. Sorry, I was unclear. What i mean is that your father was unavailable because he was a night owl marking papers and then wanted to sleep during the day and sometimes you were unavailable because you were working.
[47:35] You know 80 80 hours a week so there's some.
[47:39] There's some similarity there.
[47:40] Okay okay now i can see okay so um so i thought you meant my dad was sleeping when he watched her i was just misunderstanding okay so my uh i apologize you just have to remind me of the the question again.
[47:53] Oh, no, no, no problem. So how were you disciplined?
[47:59] So with the pestering, he would yell. He would eventually, he would say no, and I would persist. And I would like, just as a young kid would, I mean, I would just say, please, and come on, and just for now, you know, that kind of thing. And then my dad would just absolutely like just a terrifying scream at me and name call me and call me like a little shit or, uh just shame me and just lose it and i was too terrified to ask anymore, right and then i would just i would go away.
[48:38] So he would.
[48:39] Be verbally.
[48:39] Harsh but not a hitter is that right.
[48:42] Yeah no no he would never physically hit me he threatened to hit me a lot uh he would say look what you made me do and he would raise his hand right to my face but he He actually never laid a hand on me. And he just made it think it was my fault that he was raising the change in that.
[49:00] And were you kind of an only child in that way? Because.
[49:04] Yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. Because they were already preteens and teenagers when I was. When I was, you know, at that stage, they were already young adults. So, yes.
[49:15] Okay. Okay. Got it. All right. So was there any time in your childhood when you felt sort of security or love or happiness or that kind of stuff?
[49:33] Yes, there was a family up the road on our street who actually, their daughter was a year younger than myself and had the exact same name as me. It was Victoria. And the only thing I hated about going to that house, I hated being called Vicki. And I had to, to separate the two of us. So, but the mom was very, and the dad, they were a married couple. They invited me to Baptist church. They were Baptists. And so that was something social that I was able to engage in that my father didn't, he could sleep in and not worry about me going and feeling responsible. So it was a good, safe, consistent, and constant social scene for me to go to. So I would regularly go to church with them. I think I was, we became friends around the time, I think it was eight or nine, I think, and right up until about high school. Um so that so that was a strong she was the mom was a strong strong uh stable parent she would let me vent to her and she was of course mortified I think at some of the things that I would tell her but um and she knew of course she would always ask questions to ensure that safety was and that things were but I would usually tell her that you know who was involved or what was going on but she, was a safe place and going there was safe having dinner and there was quite a bit of.
[51:01] I guess I wish that I had a stable home or family I was a bit envious of you know a married couple and my friend was in the same position though she was kind of an olden child because her, older sibling was like you know 15 or 16 years older as well so uh so it was nice for that we kind of had that in common. And we were a bit mature for our age, but it was nice to have that. That would be my most stable, I'd say. Out of all the, fluctuations and instability, I would regularly, weekly go over there and just talk to the mom, even as I was hitting puberty. And the church was always good for me too. And having that, they gave a lot of good security for me in that period.
[51:50] Right. Okay. So, of course, a lot of times, and sorry, don't answer anything you're not comfortable with, but when roughly did you start to become sexually active as a teenager?
[52:00] Oh, I was young. I think it was right at the end. And I know, I've learned that through therapy too. I mean, with what being so abused at a young age, it is common. But yeah, I was like just the start of high school or just like that summer of starting high school is when I began.
[52:20] And I mean, obviously it's related to the abuse as well, but when girls are unhappy at home, they tend to become sexually active earlier because they're looking to get out of home. And the easiest way to get out of home is to get into a relationship, if that makes sense.
[52:36] Yeah. No, I didn't have that. Mine was more, it was learning through therapy, I guess, to articulate it was, it was more so, I was always craving validation from the wrong way, in the wrong way, and from the wrong people, right? It led to promiscuity, really, because it was obviously a letdown. That's not the way you would get love from a healthy member of the opposite sex, but that was the route I chose.
[53:03] Well, it's not really the route you chose. I mean, because you were at that age, you weren't, I mean, you're still almost 10 years away from brain maturity. So it is kind of how nature kind of says, okay, well, if we're in a chaotic environment, if there's no love or stability or pair bonding, then let's just have a bunch of kids and cross our fingers. And so your sexuality is kind of cranked up by your hormones and you probably enter into menstruation earlier, and you're just going to find some guy and have kids or have a lot of sex. And it is just what nature does when you're in a chaotic environment. And so it's to some degree, not even in your control because it's so biological, or at least it's very hard to, certainly without knowing what's going on. So just, and obviously you've gone through some therapy, but I wouldn't want you to put everything on your own free will that has a lot to do with biology. And, you know, girls who are abused as children will actually enter into menstruation earlier because it's nature's way of saying, well, the environment is violent and chaotic, so we better crank out a whole bunch of kids as quickly as possible without any particular filters on the quality of the guy. And that would, I think, sort of explain the four-month restaurant guy who was a bit of a man whore.
[54:23] Yes.
[54:23] I mean, I worked at restaurants as a teenager. It's a pretty promiscuous environment.
[54:28] It is. I learned that the hard way.
[54:31] Right. Okay. So what happened with your daughter when she got into her teenage years?
[54:39] Um, well, unfortunately, that's when with her age, that was right when the COVID lockdowns and stuff happened.
[54:48] So we were forced to spend a lot of extra time together. I was against, of course, the mandates. So I went to school for holistic nutrition here in Canada. And, uh, I was, I had seen naturopaths. I tried to go down more natural paths of, um, and my process of healing aside from therapy to compliment it was changing foods and such. And, uh, so at that time, by then, now she was on the same page as I was. So that meant obviously some exclusion, right? From going to places or schools or, or all like, you know, it was, it was very difficult. I don't know. She never blamed me, of course. I mean, she agreed with me. We were on the same page, I guess, in that sense. But, I mean, it felt wrong what was going on with the mandates and things seemed ridiculous.
[55:44] Oh, it was horrible. Yeah, it's absolutely horrible.
[55:46] Yeah so that that was the hard part i guess is it we were already we had our strains but i think that really like amped the the the grudges and the verbal spats between each other because we were also stuck together and my father uh he's not liberal i don't know i guess he's democratic i don't know what to say he's he does he was all forged i mean he got you know shots as if it was candy on halloween he's gotten lots of boosters he was he wasn't on the same page um but he was careful not to shame because i mean with me he didn't care but with my daughter so that was good i don't know he has more respect for my daughter he again i say that there's a different relationship between them um but when it came to being supported or that i mean our support person was on the other side of things so it made it a little harder right for, uh getting away from being stuck with each other during the isolation so that that was hard for her teen years uh she did not socialize as a result um she did not get out enough um, she was having a hard time because her views were different than a lot like the this town we live in And it's very liberal and so an artsy and was against those who were against it.
[57:09] Yes.
[57:10] So that made her unfortunately also. So she also had to deal with the struggles. And I hope that she doesn't blame me. I mean, she still agrees that you shouldn't, we shouldn't have gotten them. And she doesn't disagree with that. But I sometimes wonder if that's a space to maybe hold against me too, that the isolation was somehow. I hope she doesn't. That's just me maybe being presumptuous, but either which way it was, it was very tense because we spent more time, um, Uh, so yeah, so we made a lot of online connections. That's where my daughter started to go online a lot to find friends, as did I. We would be kind of in the same home. So that somewhat released a bit of pressure between us because I was trying to find like-minded people online so we could have some sort of socialization. Socialization. And the only thing that I think pulled us through the first couple years of high school was to connect with a friend who was on the same page, thankfully. The only friend out of all my friends that was on the same page. And she had a son that was a couple years younger than my daughter, so they did hang out. So that relieved some of the stress between us. But overall, yeah, she just didn't get to socialize. She didn't get to explore. She didn't get to have a lot, which I do think she is doing a lot of for the past year. And now she's doing that, which that's what i see anyways but i wish she would have had that capability but she didn't.
[58:31] Right okay and i guess she didn't really do much dating or how's that going.
[58:36] Uh well i mean i have my son i didn't date so i kept no no sorry i meant your.
[58:42] Daughter we'll get back to you in a.
[58:43] Second but your daughter yeah sorry okay sorry no she did uh she did date a couple times um, Because I kept my private life private for my daughter, she, I don't know, she doesn't have any, no promiscuity that I'm aware of. She actually wants to save. She chose, I guess I should say, we did those culture nights, but she chose Christianity in the end. But we visited temples. We explored a lot of religions, and she chose Christianity. That was her decision, and I was happy for her to choose her own. And so she wanted, she still wants to wait till marriage. She had been in a couple relationships. She, at that point at grade nine, around 14, she was still confiding in me despite the hardships and the grudges and my verbal outbursts towards her, the angry outbursts, I should say. She still would confide in me and did say that things would happen or boys would try to cross barriers with her. And she was very strong willed and said that she would break up with them. There were about three boys she had dated and she broke up with them because they were trying to um be physical and she was not wanting it and i was proud of her and now she's been in a relationship with a boy for since grades uh i guess 11 so for about two and a half three years um she's been with this boy and she wants to marry him they have a promise ring and um.
[1:00:10] As far as she's told me she does not want to wreck that that he respects her that she likes that when she says no or things not to go that way she does not want things she he listens and that's why she has kept him so she seems to be down a better road than the one i was on,
[1:00:26] and she doesn't seem to seek a male attention and she's it seems a lot healthier in that sense okay.
[1:00:32] That's good that's good and when did things really fall apart for you guys.
[1:00:37] Uh i think it got the worst um it was bad but it got really bad uh after having my my son uh so three years ago um she had so she stayed home the first year so that's when kids who were not jabbed or whatever could go back to school if they wanted but you know that whole baloney that if you were sick or whatever or if there was a case then the kids who weren't like oh the illogical crap was happening and and so i just wanted consistency for her and also unfortunately um my son's father, which i wasn't surprised by he he backed out um in the pregnancy so i was alone and all my friends what happened well i mean it was it was uh i.
[1:01:28] Mean you'd had some.
[1:01:29] Experience by.
[1:01:30] This point what do you.
[1:01:31] Do with.
[1:01:32] Another bad guy.
[1:01:33] Well there is a 15 year gap between my children i know that i know that's 15.
[1:01:39] Years to learn better.
[1:01:40] I know and i therapy i didn't yeah no i did not i did not well it was fun um but again going back to i had been on birth control for all these years but because i went on with the holistic nutrition and going natural ways and natural things obviously natural ways didn't work it's.
[1:01:59] Not sorry it's.
[1:02:00] Not so much that you had a kid with.
[1:02:05] A guy who didn't want to stick around. The issue is, why were you dating and having sex at all with a guy who wasn't responsible or committed?
[1:02:16] Well, I fell for, I fell for, I just, it was easily, easily manipulated. I think I just wanted to believe better. He is a father. Uh, and he spoke so highly and showed me pictures. I mean, I learned in the end that he was not, he was not that great dad, but he, he was financially stable. He was, he had owned a home. He just was in a far better place than where my daughter's father had been. And I thought he was mature and very involved. And we talked about it. And he had said that he would like a child with the right person was the wording. And he said that he loved children. He painted a different picture, to be honest, though, too, for me. So when this happened, I was not expecting. He seemed very supportive. And halfway through, I later learned that he had met someone else and said that he wanted to sign away his rights. and didn't want to do this.
[1:03:10] Okay, but how long did you know him before you started having unprotected sex?
[1:03:15] Well, we had dated back when I went to university, like eight years prior. So we, I don't know, a few months, we had known each other back then. Like we used to talk a day and night, but yeah, no, we just reconnected was all it was. We literally had just reconnected to catch up and see what had changed from eight years ago. And I thought lots had changed, but apparently not.
[1:03:36] Okay how long did you know him when you reconnected before you started having um like a month of reconnection.
[1:03:46] That was it yeah.
[1:03:47] But you knew him eight years before, yes and what did you do to vet him knowing that you have a bit of a weakness for bad boys to put it mildly right so what did you do to vet him.
[1:04:02] Uh, well, I don't know. I guess I was just a, I was, we, we had conversations and I guess I was feeling so, uh, I guess I thought that he was, my mind created a fairy tale. So I was very like, I, I was willing to, I just kissed him. I felt that there was too physical chemistry. I felt that, um, yeah, I just thought that he was, I had that rush in me feeling that he was the right. or the right person or a good safe person.
[1:04:34] You were turned on.
[1:04:35] Oh, for sure. I thought there was security.
[1:04:38] No, no, no. Hang on. Hang on. Those two are not quite the same thing. I don't think I've ever heard of a woman who gets sexually turned on by security. Otherwise, you know, old guys with lots of money would be the sexiest people on the planet. There'd be pinups of Warren Buffett in his 90s, but there isn't.
[1:04:57] But he was a good guy who had his home and his car and a.
[1:05:00] Career he wasn't a good guy because he lied to you, and he said he wanted a baby with the right person and you said he lied about being a good father is that right? Yes so that's not a good guy right?
[1:05:20] Well I didn't know that hang.
[1:05:21] On and the reason I'm asking you this is I want you to have a good relationship with your daughter, right and how is your daughter going to respect you if this is like the third guy who doesn't stick around the third bad guy you've chosen and you're still making excuses, Because you need her to respect you, right? And if you're so easily fooled and just fall prey to lust or don't vet guys or have unprotected sex with guys who turn out to be real jerks, how is your daughter? It's a real question, right? I mean, I'm just meeting you for the first time, so I'm certainly happy to be instructed on this. How is your daughter supposed to respect you if these are decisions you're making? And it's not, listen, we all make bad decisions. I get that. I mean, Lord knows I've made my own share of bad decisions on this planet. But so the respect doesn't come from being perfect in making decisions the respect comes from, taking responsibility for bad decisions and what you say is he was very convincing he fooled me he you know he had said all the right things that kind of stuff right, So are you responsible for the men you let impregnate you?
[1:06:51] I i mean i i it's hard for me because i still feel like this is making me take the entirety of the the blame i mean i i don't also want to feel like i deserve it though i guess what admitting that makes me feel like i deserve it.
[1:07:06] Like i i'm not sure what that means but i'm talking about um okay who generally is the gatekeeper for sex men or women.
[1:07:20] I guess women.
[1:07:21] Well yes i mean men will propose sex and women say yes or no right, yes okay so unprotected sex who is more responsible and listen i'm not saying the man is not responsible he is but i'm talking to you not him right if i was talking to him i would say the same thing, but who is responsible for you getting pregnant?
[1:07:53] That's, that's, I think if we both, I still think it's both of us because if we both make the decision to do that, I think it's, it's still equal, but ultimately, I mean, if I get pregnant knowing that there's that chance, my responsibility is not to have abortions or to throw kids into a system and expect the city to pay for it.
[1:08:13] Your responsibility is to not give up your precious womb to douchebags. Right yeah so is it known to women that men can be lying sex greedy hound dogs, yes is it known to women what is it that there's a line from an ancient movie now with goldie horn called private benjamin you know he said he loved me and then he came and yeah i mean so it is known to women that men will lie to get sex, right?
[1:08:56] Yes.
[1:08:57] And it is also known to women that men will flash around resources because it makes women more excited to think that there may be financial security in a relationship, right?
[1:09:10] Yes.
[1:09:10] Okay. What were the red flags regarding the father of your three-year-old when you were dating him for the month before you had unprotected sex?
[1:09:25] Well, it already happened when I saw the red flag. I had immediately friend-zoned him because I saw the red flag.
[1:09:32] Sorry, when did you friend-zone him? Not the eight years prior, but when you got back together?
[1:09:37] Yes. Yes, when we got back together.
[1:09:40] It was after being intimate.
[1:09:41] It was after being intimate. I saw a change. It was a very notable change that lots of women who jump the gun and take this path with men and fall for all the tricks, they see it. And I realized that I had been duped and saw it.
[1:09:56] Hang on, hang on, hang on. I need to get the sequence here. So you said that you saw the red flags immediately when you got back together with him after the eight-year break, right?
[1:10:06] No, immediately after being intimate.
[1:10:09] Come on. There's no way. that, okay, you don't have to tell me how old you are, but I guess you're in your 40s, right?
[1:10:20] I'm 40.
[1:10:21] You're 40, okay. So a 40-year-old woman, doesn't have any capacity after having had a number of disastrous relationships in the past. A 40-year-old woman does not have the capacity to vet a man.
[1:10:43] I don't know. I guess I didn't. I mean, No, no.
[1:10:47] That demo didn't have the capacity to vet him.
[1:10:50] I guess not the capacity. I guess I haven't done enough spiritual work and therapy work to be able to allow myself to have enough self-worth to set a boundary and not let my impulse take over.
[1:11:04] Okay, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Do you have friends in your life who can help vet the men you sleep with?
[1:11:15] Yeah. Not, honestly, I don't think mature enough friends. I think friends would encourage, my friends encourage me. I have not touched a person since my son's father and he's going to be four. So my friends have encouraged me to be intimate with men. So no.
[1:11:35] Well, no, but there's nothing wrong with being intimate with men. But the question is, what about the quality of the men? Because that's what matters, right? Okay. So your father, sorry, what's your relationship like with your father? at the moment um.
[1:11:52] I just we're we're i guess i i'm i i'm friendly with my father but we're not close.
[1:12:01] Okay so he doesn't help you guys right oh no no okay so who does help you remember he.
[1:12:07] Wanted me to stay with the man who was hitting me that's his.
[1:12:10] Until your daughter was hit right okay so what uh do you have friends you said you don't have friends who are mature enough to help you vet guys?
[1:12:23] No, I don't believe that. Because when I've gone for advice, it's usually...
[1:12:28] Oh, he's great. Go for it.
[1:12:29] Thanks. Yeah. Well, if they think he's not great, they'll be like, well, just have sex with him or just have fun. And if you... Well, they would say, well, he sounds good. But, you know, if he's not, at least you could just have fun. It's usually the advice.
[1:12:43] Okay. So the advice is, don't worry if he's a bad guy, just use him for sex.
[1:12:49] Pretty much which i don't.
[1:12:50] That's shitty friendship.
[1:12:52] It is so what are you what are you doing with people like this well i don't do very much with them to be honest i mean this is what i do enough to get advice but i haven't gone to them for advice in a long time this is why i went back to saying i'm we're very isolated because i i have drawn away so nobody helps.
[1:13:11] You vet guys.
[1:13:14] No okay.
[1:13:15] What about therapists.
[1:13:16] Well i don't feel safe i should say i don't feel safe because of those responses i don't want those responses because it's an unhealthy path like the just going and having fun and taking chances on guys and like i don't yeah that's not good.
[1:13:31] Advice but you said you.
[1:13:32] Were in.
[1:13:32] Therapy so what's your history with therapy now.
[1:13:39] Well, we had done some, my biggest therapy, or the most important, we did EMDR therapy for a while, for some of the events to try to process them. The traumas that I pushed down that I talked about that I couldn't remember.
[1:13:56] Sorry, what is EMDR? Is that the drug-based therapy or something else?
[1:14:00] It's kind of like where it triggers things that you've pushed down to try to resolve them and not keep them pushed down so they don't keep coming back up. Kind of like an unclogging a toilet in the mind. And so it's just basically...
[1:14:14] Sorry, but is that talk therapy or is it drug therapy or some combat?
[1:14:18] No, no, it's not drug. I guess it's drug. It's almost, I don't know if it's hypnotic. You have to watch something, a pendulum swing, and it's supposed to trigger traumas for some reason. I don't know. It was discovered years ago. Well, a lot of stuff came up that I didn't even know. Basically, the idea is that your brain is supposed to process a lot of it. And I did. I mean, it gave me a lot of realizations. We discussed things that come up. You basically don't use your ego to bring things up in the state of hypnosis. You literally just follow whatever comes up, and you don't discuss it. You just let things out that come up.
[1:14:57] Okay, it doesn't work. My brain doesn't know.
[1:14:59] Well, I did a lot, I guess, for me. I mean, to be able to talk to you about all the decisions or the things that have gone on and to... I've had a lot of realizations, but I don't... I still, at this point... And again, it's a funding issue. I guess they're going to cut off my therapy. We've gotten finally gotten to the point.
[1:15:20] Of these realizations and i only have one more session left covered so i'm not quite sure where to go from here i've got that's why i reached out to you i guess because i have come to the point of realizations and i don't know how
[1:15:32] to move forward after realizing okay so let's go back to.
[1:15:36] I appreciate that thank you for for that information so let's go back to the last guy let's just call him give me a name that's not his.
[1:15:44] Okay walter walter.
[1:15:48] Okay that's hot Okay. So, Walter, what did you notice after you had, and how many unprotected sex sessions did you guys have before you got pregnant?
[1:16:03] We got pregnant after the first one.
[1:16:05] Okay.
[1:16:06] And then we had one after we were pregnant.
[1:16:07] First time unprotected sex, you're at 37, you get pregnant. And what is it, how long did it take you to figure out you were pregnant?
[1:16:14] Oh, within the third, like when I was four days late. I didn't even realize I was four days late.
[1:16:20] Okay so then uh and how long after you had sex did you realize you were pregnant.
[1:16:28] Um so that was i guess what three and a half weeks.
[1:16:33] Okay so you were with him you were dating him for a month you have unprotected sex almost a month later you find out you're pregnant and what happens then.
[1:16:44] Well, we were not dating though, because after, as I said, once I, once we had been intimate the first time where I got pregnant, I noticed a very, very memorable, unfortunate pullback, right? From, from the, the guys that I, the dirtbag that I dated before.
[1:17:02] And sorry, I don't know what you mean by pullback.
[1:17:06] Like pull back emotionally and verbally like you know where the ghosting happens or not talking as much or not engage as much not as interesting anymore right just kind of like the idea of not showing like you talked about all the things that women fall for being flashy talking be involved it was just completely like a 180 so okay once he.
[1:17:26] Got sex he kind of ghosted you.
[1:17:29] Yep and pretty much he didn't talk very much they were very casual conversations so right immediately i knew i mean we had it was just very it was completely i wouldn't say ghosted but he was just you know from going on talking paragraphs we talked a sentence or two and we weren't engaged in conversation so i i just proposed to him at that time i asked um i had confronted him and i I tried to be clever and witty about asking about us being friends or whatever. And he said, oh, we've only, you know, seen each other for a week or two. Like, we're obviously just friends. And which was just told me, obviously, like the intimacy meant nothing. It was all for sex, right? Like, it was just very valid. So I was the one to say, oh, great. I would totally be okay with friends. I even thought maybe in my head I could be safe this time and use condoms and not be an idiot. I literally thought that and thought we could be friends with benefits and, yeah. Then I did not know I was pregnant at the time, but I had said that.
[1:18:29] Now I said, I was screwed up. I'm so sorry. Go ahead.
[1:18:33] No, no, that was it.
[1:18:34] Okay. So Walter, did he believe that you were on birth control?
[1:18:40] No, I told him. And I told him right after.
[1:18:43] You told him that you were not on any birth control.
[1:18:46] Yes. And I warned him the day after. So Mr. Walter likes psychedelics and having mushrooms with his friends, which was something that I thought changed and didn't change after all these years. So he was about to have a real mushroom party at his house the day after we had been intimate. So I reached out to him and said, you know, I didn't get pregnant. There was also some overconfidence in myself because I was in one relationship. There was a relationship I didn't mention in between those 15 years with someone. I was engaged. I was with someone for a couple of years and that we couldn't get pregnant. And I thought there was something wrong with me because that person had kids. So I was a little cocky in believing that I guess there was something wrong with me that we were probably fine. But I did warn him. I said even though that's the case you know I'm not in birth control and I said I think I mean I looked at my period calendar I might be ovulating he just completely ignored it he ignored all of it okay.
[1:19:45] But why did you ignore it.
[1:19:46] I again I was overly confident I thought that I was fine I don't know I just thought sorry no no no.
[1:19:55] No don't don't try that on me sister you told him there was a risk of you getting pregnant don't tell me you were overly confident.
[1:20:04] Yeah, well, again, I thought the risk was low. So I presented it that way to himself and myself.
[1:20:08] Okay, but what do you mean? That's like Russian roulette. Well, the risk is low, but it's still there.
[1:20:13] Right.
[1:20:13] Why not have a condom? I mean, help me understand. You're 40 years or 37 years old.
[1:20:20] Right, well, I guess I should mention at his house, I brought this up to him, though. I did ask for a condom. Okay, I did.
[1:20:29] Okay, you don't ask for a condom. You say, no glove, no love. I mean, I don't know what you mean by ask. Well, he says, no, I'm not using a condom. Okay. I mean, that's what he's talking about.
[1:20:43] Right. Well, that was it. We were physically in the moment, but I did stop and ask. I'm just telling you that I did. And he said he has no idea where one would be. And I just, we just, I ended up getting back with him a few minutes later. And we obviously did the deed, but I did stop. And I asked.
[1:20:59] Okay.
[1:21:00] For Mr. Hating being pregnant. I mean, again, I'm supposed to take all the responsibility being the gateway, but I did. To be fair, I think that's fair that I did say something and stopped it.
[1:21:10] When did you find out that he liked drug parties?
[1:21:16] Well, I knew he was into ecstasy or whatever. I don't know what, whatever. He goes to raves. He was into raving. And again, he's 40 years old. He's a year older than me or 41.
[1:21:25] Is he a drug addict?
[1:21:28] I guess so. I guess he likes, well, he likes mushrooms and whatever this is.
[1:21:31] He likes to not be present. So he's a drug addict who's into rave culture.
[1:21:39] Yes.
[1:21:40] And you're trying to tell me there were no red flags until after you slept with him?
[1:21:45] Well, I didn't know he was still into it because we didn't talk about that until after we had been intimate. And the flag started popping up gloriously.
[1:21:54] Sorry, did he lie about that? You'd say, hey, what you been up to? Oh, you know, I'm enjoying rave culture. I do drugs. I mean, did he just lie about that or did you not ask him what he did with his time?
[1:22:03] No, he never brought it up and I didn't ask him. I didn't think like I thought from everything else he had told me about his being in the military and wanting to help people and all these things I just thought that he was just far more mature than when we first dated years ago because he, always talked about it and was always into raves so I just assumed that he was.
[1:22:25] He was no longer into raves or drugs.
[1:22:27] Right But he was He was Okay.
[1:22:31] And were there any other indications that he was not living the most mature life in existence before you slept together? Any life circumstances or anything like that?
[1:22:44] Um, no, it was, it was hard for me at the time. The only thing I can say, I didn't see it as a flag, but like he was against the vaccines. He was, he just, um, he sounded like he was, he sounded a little, I don't know how to say oppositional, I guess, but I thought that was a great quality and not liking rules and in relation to the COVID stuff. And because I had asked him about party, like, and again, he didn't tell me it was a mushroom party, but he said, you know, I usually keep to myself, I asked him if he was socializing during this isolation crap. And he said, or the adhering to all the crap. And he had said, no, not really, not that they, and he said, I do have the odd party or two. He didn't say drugs or anything. He just said, I might have a few friends over, a small party or friends over. I don't, nothing that anyone would notice when I asked about him adhering to stuff. so okay so he was.
[1:23:39] Into raves when you knew him raves and drugs when you knew him eight years before right.
[1:23:43] Right and.
[1:23:45] Then you assumed that that was all over.
[1:23:47] Right okay.
[1:23:50] Had he had stable adult relationships.
[1:23:52] Yeah well he says he gets together he said he got together with these friends regularly i mean let's talk dating though uh so he said he had one relationship since i had last seen him that was uh the last age i guess he said about three years and then he had been single like and i thought he was like me that something had fallen apart and just stayed single um i didn't, so he was sorry.
[1:24:22] To interrupt he was your age right yes so he was your age and the longest relationship he'd had was three years.
[1:24:31] I guess I never asked him his longest, to be honest, in all of our dating, so I don't know. But that was the longest he had had between those eight years or seven years.
[1:24:40] Well, I mean, if you knew him eight years ago, you probably would have had some idea of his relationships back then, and you would have had some history or knowledge. So it seems likely that his longest relationship was eight years, right?
[1:24:55] Um i i guess.
[1:24:58] Sorry it was three years it was three years sorry okay three.
[1:25:01] Years yeah sorry okay.
[1:25:02] And and the reason i'm saying all of this is that you gotta you gotta get used to how to vet guys because well.
[1:25:12] I don't i don't trust myself so i just don't date.
[1:25:14] Well hang on hang on it's not all about you who am i talking about, my daughter well and eventually your son, so you have to figure out how to vet people because you're a parent, now it sounds like your daughter's got something pretty solid going on which is good maybe it'll work out maybe it won't but you know when your son you know in 10 years which will pass before you know it he's going to be starting to get interested in dating and all that kind of stuff So you got to figure out how to vet. And, you know, also you're 40, right? I mean, I assume you don't want to be single for the next 45 years.
[1:25:56] Yeah, no, I don't. But I just, I, well, I mean, one thing is I'm against the mandates and the stuff. And I don't want to be with someone who is for all that. And that's very difficult nowadays to date. But vetting has become even harder. I have taken part in some groups and trying to find people that are like-minded, involved fathers. Like, I do have these checklists, but it is, I usually give up. But I have made attempts.
[1:26:28] So tell me what you mean when I say you're responsible for getting pregnant and you say that tells me that I deserve it. I wasn't quite sure I followed that, and I'm sorry if I missed something, but if you could tell me a little bit about that so I can understand your thinking that way.
[1:26:43] Oh, sorry.
[1:26:45] No, it's okay. Big hug, sister. You know, none of this is critical. I'm just trying to understand.
[1:26:51] I'm not quite sure how to fight or understand. Again, like I said, the therapy is being cut off in a week. And I'm not quite sure at this point. It's like, you know, when you get, it's very difficult. The rational mind, you know, I think, obviously the guy that i chose and i slept with it was a risk um it's just that, uh it still doesn't hurt any less right to feel not enough um sorry um, so it's very easy for me um to take offense i i'm i'm really hard on myself and This is why I don't I don't want to date I don't want to be with Not that I don't want to date I do put myself out there But, I get Um.
[1:27:50] I just, I don't know, I lack a lot of self-worth. I tremendously lack it, and, again, I've had the unhealthy habits of trying to take care of others, and, it was unhealthy in the sense that I know, for instance, with my daughter, that there was anger, There was the lack of self-worth that I have in boundaries, both with men and in my family, I know is a problem. Because, yes, there is responsibility. I'm aware that it is my fault for not setting the boundaries. But I'm not sure how to break the habit of not trusting myself. I crave to be with somebody. but I also don't want to be taking these chances I go back and forth but, it's come to a point where I don't know if I can handle the rejection or handle I get scared.
[1:28:59] And I just it's hard for me to take that responsibility when I'm craving, affection or I'm craving to be with someone especially someone who's like-minded and wants to live healthily and being against this this crap that's going on it feels a lot more lonely um.
[1:29:17] So, when I think of healthy and stuff, you know, I just, I think, I think of my postpartum weight gain, or that, you know, that I'm alone, or that I, you know, I have this, I don't have some phenomenal career at 40, I'm going back to school, I'm trying to do these things, I just have all these things that suggest that I feel like I'm not enough. And I think this is why I continuously settle and I lack my impulse control I know that and I don't feel safe which is why I stay single or don't touch anyone for a while but I haven't quite figured out in this moment of wanting to be intimate or wanting to be around with someone why I let that go I let the impulse take over because I've just allowed myself celibacy for so long that I just crave it. And then I feel shame. And then, yes, it will not allow me to admit because I feel vulnerable. And the shame that has caused me to be alone craving it is the same shame factor that comes up when it's to admit that I let my impulse take over in irresponsibility when I'm just craving affection. So the only way I know how to...
[1:30:32] I think it's wonderful to crave affection, like we're social creatures, right? But you're not getting affection. That's the issue. So craving affection is understandable. We all crave that. We crave... I mean, when I was a kid, I knew old women who would invent ailments just to go and talk to the doctor for five minutes. You know, they were that lonely. It was really quite tragic. So what I'm trying to understand is, as men don't get this, we don't understand this. So I'm right on the edge of sort of what I can comprehend. So most men don't have the ability to subsidize relationship with sexual access. I mean, because there are just very few men that women would just, you know, kill and die to have sex with or whatever, right? So women have this ability to say, I'm interesting because I might offer sex, right?
[1:31:30] Yeah.
[1:31:32] That subsidy is quite dangerous as as you know right because so my question is how do you feel, if you don't have the ability to offer sex so let's say you reconnect with this guy you knew in university or in education like eight years ago uh walter his name was right we we made up that name so you reconnect with walter and you say to walter listen uh no sex for at least three to six months i really have to get to know you i have to understand your virtue your character your stability and like so put it out of your mind if we enjoy each other's company and we like each other and i find out you're a good guy you know i'm not anti-sex but i actually i don't want to have that dangling about at the beginning because it's a, you know, a girl has to be careful in this wide, rough world, right? So what happens if that is the situation? Is Walter going to want to date you?
[1:32:46] Um, I've only seen that once.
[1:32:51] You've only seen that, sorry, once?
[1:32:53] Yes.
[1:32:54] Okay.
[1:32:54] There was someone that I dated, yes, and that was the instance, but.
[1:32:57] And how long ago was that?
[1:33:01] That was like 12 years ago, 13 years ago, but he ended up just liking the chase. That's what it was. I chose someone who literally, and there were signs though, too, unfortunately. That was my only instance I can say that I've seen it, but of course there were flags.
[1:33:17] So he only likes the chase so you didn't have sex till he dated you and he wasn't um, he wasn't able to have sex so you withheld sex for how long six months six months okay so he dated you and you withheld sex for six months and this means you got a real good chance to to figure out who he was right yes and then what happened yes and now we did no no six months six Six months is a long time. It's a long time.
[1:33:45] Yeah.
[1:33:46] Okay. So what happened after six months? You had sex and then what happened?
[1:33:52] Um... He, this is going to, I'm going to be honest with you. It was horrible. Right before, after six months, and I was like, this is the night where I felt like this would be official. I thought, this guy obviously cares. He would drive so far just to see me. I hadn't even kissed him for months.
[1:34:13] Wait, you hadn't kissed him? Hang on. You hadn't kissed him for months?
[1:34:16] Yeah, for the first three months, I didn't even kiss him.
[1:34:19] Were you dating or just hanging out?
[1:34:23] Well, he was pursuing me. It was very, no. we would go to dinner dates yes dinner dates and he lived in uh.
[1:34:29] Don't worry don't don't give me a name don't give me a name so he lived far away you would go on dinner dates and what you would hold hands but not kiss yeah.
[1:34:36] We just were just very friendly with each other and i was.
[1:34:39] I just wasn't friendly it's not what i'm so he was pursuing you romantically right yes.
[1:34:46] Yes he was.
[1:34:47] And you were playing very hard to get although you already had a child.
[1:34:53] Yes. Well, I was not sure of him. I was, he would seem like a bit of a, what, what the flag was for me is he seemed to be, he's very well put together. He's set out like he was, he was very intellectually stimulating, which I really enjoyed in our conversations. We had a couple hours distance and he was across the border just in Niagara region. But he, it was, he seemed, I picked up that he liked, enjoyed his time of being single in the sense that He kept saying he wanted a relationship, but he wanted to travel all the time. And he was, uh, so he traveled a lot. He almost seems like a vagabond in the end. And, and I don't know, he was just, I just, I wasn't sure, but then I, so I dressed that flag up in my own mind as that maybe I'm too clingy. I took things that, you know, guys I had slept with before had thrown at me or wanting, and when I wanted a relationship and something stable. So I just, dressed that up as maybe it's just me, this man. But he really did not. He really told me that he wanted a relationship with me and pursued and pursued. And I thought because he waited so long that he was genuine. But I could not keep up or compliment that kind of life of traveling all the time. And I don't think he was capable of having. He did not want kids, I don't think, in the end. He said he did, but...
[1:36:23] No, no, if he wants to travel, then he doesn't want kids, right? Okay. So I still don't understand. So he pursued you for six months. You didn't kiss him for months. You have that Rod Stewart, Tonight's the Night song going on in your head. You go and have sex. And then what happens?
[1:36:37] Well, right before we had sex. So that's where it was. I could have sworn and my friend validated it after we had slept together that he gave her quite the hug where like his hand seemed to be hugging her butt and said it was accidental. And I was shocked.
[1:36:52] Sorry. I just want to make sure I understand. You know these stories. I don't. So, right after you had sex, he gives your friend a hug in some social situation and grabs her butt.
[1:37:01] Yeah, right before we did.
[1:37:03] Right before you had sex.
[1:37:05] Oh, absolutely. It was before.
[1:37:06] Okay, so right before, hang on, hang on. Right before you have sex, he grabs your friend's butt.
[1:37:12] When hugging her.
[1:37:13] Yeah, yeah, I understand.
[1:37:14] Yeah.
[1:37:15] Okay, so then, hang on. When did she tell you?
[1:37:18] She just looked surprised, and I thought, yeah. She didn't say anything to me. I was the one to approach her the next day because I began to feel insecure about that.
[1:37:27] Oh, she didn't tell you that he grabbed her butt before you had sex?
[1:37:31] No, I saw it. No, I visually saw it.
[1:37:33] Oh, you saw it. Okay. So why did you have sex with a guy who's grabbing your friend's butt?
[1:37:36] I don't know. It's something I asked myself. We had, I don't know. I have no idea why.
[1:37:42] I can tell you why. Would you like to know why?
[1:37:48] Sure.
[1:37:49] Because you don't know the value that you provide without sexual access. You're not confident that you provide value without sexual access. So you're like some rich guy who has to keep paying for his friends to come on his vacation or yacht, or like he's got to send them Ubers and he's got to have the Cristal and he's got to have the Viper room and he's got to have like all of this stuff, right? So for you, okay, and if I'm wrong, okay, if let's say a quality man, what's your favorite male name?
[1:38:24] I don't know just anything um okay i don't i christopher christopher okay.
[1:38:32] Got it so uh chrissy christopher christopher comes along and he's smart wise virtuous together and you know his wife was killed in a horrible hot air balloon accident or something like that something honorable where he's single or whatever right and he is uh skeptical and critical but warm and and so on right so what do you feel no sexual access right what do you feel that you have to offer him as a female.
[1:39:06] Um well i i am very big about, this is a hard one for me because i get scared to say it but the the i'm opposed to what happened i take it very seriously what we went through as a country and to blow up with them with what happened with the covid stuff so one is that i think i have the despite my inability to set boundaries with men i set boundaries with the country and to protect my my child and myself so I guess it's, I guess I can offer, I offer that.
[1:39:46] Okay. Now, do you know what Christopher is going to say in response to that? You say, I care about the country. I care about the future of my children and so on, right? What would Christopher say in response?
[1:40:00] I would like to say that he thinks that's great.
[1:40:03] No. Christopher will say, that's all well and good. And I appreciate that. But if you care so much about your children, why don't you choose better fathers for them?
[1:40:16] Um, because I didn't know how to choose.
[1:40:19] Well, you were 37 years old. You can forgive the 21, right? But you were 37 years old, having unprotected sex with a guy who turned out to be a drug addict, rave guy. So I'm telling you because, because these are the kind of vetting questions that quality men are going to be asking you. Because quality men want to protect their hearts. They want to protect their assets, their income, right? I'm not saying you're some gold digger, but that's just, you know, so quality men are going to ask you tough questions. And I think those tough questions are painful to you. And if it's any consolation, they're painful for me as well. You know, when I get asked those tough questions, it could be harsh for me as well. So I'm not saying that, you know, you're in some uniquely, you know, like everybody has difficulty with those tough questions, right? Now, if you are having, I'm not saying dangling sex, but if sexual access is on the table, are men more or less likely to ask you those tough questions?
[1:41:36] Less likely.
[1:41:38] Right. So a lot of times women will dangle sex and men will dangle money, right? So I get that, right? I mean, the last guy sounds like he dangled money a little bit, but women will dangle, because I'm talking to you now, right? So women will dangle sex in order to avoid the tough questions. So what would you say to Christopher when he says, if you care so much about your children, A, why do you tell me that you yell at them? And B, why is your relationship with your daughter so bad? And C, why didn't you choose better fathers for them? And what would you say?
[1:42:22] Um but i am, a work in progress that i was even able to admit to you is a sign that i at least can acknowledge that i've made these mistakes and that if you're searching for someone who is, childish and has made great decisions i highly doubt they are single but they may be out there But I may not be for you if you can't accept that I'm a work in progress. So either you want to be with me knowing that I'm able to admit these things. And I've been single for all these past few years because I don't want to make that mistake. And I see something within you. But if you'd like, but if that is not something for you and you're questioning my judgment, I can understand. And I guess that's not, I wouldn't be for you because I can't undo that. But I can just assure you that I don't have any more children and I'm hoping to do things right, which is why.
[1:43:20] Well, at 40, that may not be a choice, right? Who knows, right? I mean, who knows how fertile you'd still be. Okay, so a quality man, what do you think? And listen, I appreciate the answer and I respect the answer, but tell me, what do you think Christopher is going to think of, hey, I'm a work in progress and if you want a perfect person, you've got to look elsewhere. What do you think? How do you think he will respond to that?
[1:43:47] Well, it depends on how much he likes about what he's learned about me or what he actually sees. If he can only see those flaws, I would also suggest that that is an insecurity on his end.
[1:43:59] No, no, no, no, no. Do not start insulting Christopher because that's just going to drive him away, right? Okay. Like, you know, this, well, you have to take everything about me or you're just insecure. That's not, that's not going to work. Like, that's not going to work on Christopher. Okay. So, I can tell you what Christopher would ask you next. Are you ready?
[1:44:20] Yeah.
[1:44:20] Are you ready? Okay. This one is tough. So, Christopher would say, it's my understanding that you got quite angry with your daughter, and you also get quite angry with your son. Is that right?
[1:44:37] Yes.
[1:44:38] Okay. So tell me what you have said and done to your daughter and son that you regret.
[1:44:48] I get, I yell and...
[1:44:51] And what do you say?
[1:44:53] Particularly with my daughter, I just yell at their behavior. I name their behavior in a loud voice that's stupid or that they are stupid or acting stupid. And I shame. I shame when I yell.
[1:45:05] Okay. So you call your children stupid and what else?
[1:45:15] Sorry, hold on. I just need a moment. My son just came up. My father is watching my son.
[1:45:18] No, no problem at all. Take your time.
[1:45:20] How do you feel to be no eye? Okay, honey. Can I come in? Can you give mommy a few minutes? And mom will come help turn it on for you, okay? Okay, honey. But you have to go back down with grandpa for a moment, okay? And I will come down to help. Okay, honey. Thank you. Sorry.
[1:45:41] No, no, no apologies. That's a great age. I remember it well. Okay. So, you call your children stupid, and what else? Have you hit them? Okay, so you call them stupid, and what else? If there's anything else, I'm not saying there is, but what do you regret?
[1:46:01] I question what's wrong with them. That's another thing I commonly have said is what's wrong with them. I yell and scream when they make mistakes. When they have like done something like broken something or done something to put themselves at risk I have screamed that out of frustration okay because I feel like I feel like a failure and I'm aware of that because I am being mindful of the situation doing it alone and because I I lack asking help or lack the ability to ask or that I don't have very many reliable people currently in my life, I don't ask. I unfortunately let my anger come out in that sense to my kids.
[1:46:48] Okay. So you have excuses for yourself, but you blame your children.
[1:46:58] In those moments, yes.
[1:46:59] Well, but do you understand the contradiction there? Because you say, hey, I'm 40. I'm a work in progress. You can't judge me very harshly. And yet your kid, your son, who is 10% of your age, is stupid. And what the hell's wrong with him? So you have endless forgiveness for yourself and excuses, which is, well, you know, he lied to me. And I thought I couldn't get pregnant. And I did ask him to use a condom. And I'm unsupported. And so I get frustrated. So you have a lot of excuses for yourself, right? But not for your children. Your children are stupid and what the hell's wrong with them. And they get screamed at and yelled at. But for you, you have this magical portal of excuses. That is really hypocritical, right? In other words, if you could take the same excuses you apply to yourself and apply them to your children, you wouldn't be yelling at them, would you?
[1:48:11] And, well, if I wouldn't be yelling at them at all, if I was in a rational state of mind.
[1:48:16] Well, no, see, now you're giving, now, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Now you're giving yourself another excuse called, I'm in an irrational state of mind. But if yelling and screaming at your children and calling them stupid is excusable because you're in an irrational state of mind, why isn't what your children are doing also excusable? Because they're in an irrational state of mind, with much more excuse, because they're kids! I would suggest, if you want, because this is about parenting, right? You can't have it both ways. You can't say, I'm a work in progress. I'm stressed. I feel unsupported. I this, and give yourself all these excuses, and then rage at your children for the mistakes they made. That is the contradiction that is tearing you up. And that is the contradiction That will keep good men away from you, Because if they see you giving endless excuses For your own bad behavior Okay, tell me something wrong What was the last thing your son did That had you yell at him? What did he do?
[1:49:36] He had thrown his shoes out the window On a country road and highway And.
[1:49:43] Why did he do that?
[1:49:49] No but i mean he didn't.
[1:49:51] Just just wake up from a nap and decide to throw his shoes out the way was he upset about something was was there a conflict why did he throw his.
[1:49:58] Shoes out the window no we were in the car and he just was curious and i had asked him not to i saw the shoe and um and i had rolled up the window a bit but it was hot and the ac isn't working. So I just rolled it up a bit and I said, do not throw it out. And it was his curiosity at his age. I mean, he is.
[1:50:18] All right. So he threw the shoes out the window. So you had to turn around and go and get the shoes, right?
[1:50:24] No, we are on the highway road. I couldn't. I just, I had just said.
[1:50:28] He started to scream.
[1:50:30] Yeah. And I said, the shoes are gone. And then he just lost it. And he was screaming and losing it. And I did not know how to handle that while driving on this country I was in a state of panic and anxiety and.
[1:50:45] Okay so he.
[1:50:45] Was also hang.
[1:50:46] On he was also in a state of panic and anxiety right except he's four and you're 40, So is it worse to throw your shoes out the car when you're four, or is it worse to get pregnant and have the guy no longer, have the guy, two guys now, not at all be around as fathers? Which is worse?
[1:51:21] I just.
[1:51:23] Which is worse? Come on. It's horrible. Which is worse, throwing your shoes out of the car at the age of four, or twice getting knocked up by guys who ghost you. And the first guy beat you while pregnant. Which is worse?
[1:51:48] You're very good at shaming me.
[1:51:50] I'm not trying to shame you. I'm trying to get you to unshame your kids. I'm not trying to shame you. It's not about you. This is about your kids. Which is worse? Throwing your shoes out of the window or having unprotected sex with two men who turn out to be terrible fathers. Not even fathers. Absent. Now i'll answer it for you because i know it's a tough and i'm not trying to shame you but what i am trying to say is you forgive yourself for almost infinitely worse behavior than what you condemn your own children for i.
[1:52:29] Don't forgive myself i punish myself by not being around anybody because i think i'm a horrible person.
[1:52:34] You that's why i haven't had this hold hang on and you'll hear this when you listen back and i hope you will the number of excuses you gave me because i said what do you say to christopher and you said well you know i'm a work in progress and i'm not perfect and i you know these men lied to me and you've given me a lot of excuses, and to me i'm like okay i don't particularly agree with the excuses but if you're gonna have excuses for bad behavior, why do your children not get excuses for bad behavior why is it only mommy who gets excuses and not the four-year-old. Why is mommy not responsible for unprotected sex and the consequences thereto? Why is mommy not responsible for having two children with no fathers, but the children are infinitely responsible for throwing shoes out of a car window? You can't have it both ways logically. It will tear your soul in two. To say, my really bad decisions are excusable because I'm a work in progress, but the four-year-old is not excusable. That's the double standard that I'm trying. Now, I'm not saying take the standard you inflict upon your children and inflict it upon you. You understand that's not what I'm saying, right? What am I saying?
[1:54:02] I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I also feel like I gave a bad example because I was comparing it to a child that had zero logic, though, too.
[1:54:09] But that's all the more reason to have kindness and compassion. You have excuses for yourself. hey, I'm a work in progress. I'm not perfect. Like it or lump it, right? Okay. And I may have some tweaks on that, but okay. So if that's your perspective to yourself at 40, how can you possibly be harsh to your son at four? He's a work in progress, literally, right? Bro is two decades away from brain maturity and you're calling him stupid and what the hell's wrong with you? Take the excuses and the gentleness that you have with yourself and apply it to your children, because you don't want this well when i do something wrong i'm a work in progress and i'm not perfect and people should understand and accept and blah blah blah right but when my children do something wrong they're stupid and what the hell is wrong with them, You understand that's a double and opposing standard, and it's having infinitely higher standards for a four-year-old than you have for yourself at 40.
[1:55:22] But that's not entirely true. I guess I'm having a hard time. I'm going to tell you what I'm seeing and hearing from what you're telling me. After I yell, I do validate. I apologize and say that I shouldn't have yelled. I do validate my child. I say, mommy's angry. I know you're feeling angry inside.
[1:55:41] And I do try to validate I have been working hard to validate, I don't know, every I guess it depends It could be every I mean, it's not necessarily at my son I yell in general Okay.
[1:55:58] How often do you yell around your son?
[1:56:01] Okay, like I guess every few days Okay.
[1:56:05] So every few days Your son sees you yelling and calling out And screaming and stuff, right?
[1:56:11] Yes.
[1:56:12] Okay. So you yell. Do you know why you yell? It's not to do with stress or pressure or blah, blah, blah. Do you know why you yell?
[1:56:24] I just, I feel overwhelmed.
[1:56:28] No, it's not that. That's another excuse. I mean, your son feels overwhelmed and you still yell at him. So being overwhelmed is not an excuse. Because if it was an excuse It would be infinitely more applicable to your son And you wouldn't yell at him, right? I mean, four-year-olds get a little bit more overwhelmed Than 40-year-olds, right? So why do you yell? I'll tell you why Well, let me ask you this Have you ever yelled at your children And called them stupid When you were at a mall?
[1:57:08] I have yelled, yes. I have not name called.
[1:57:11] Okay, so you have a name called. If there was a policeman right in front of you, would you scream at your kids and call them names?
[1:57:21] No. I would ask them what's wrong with that. I would still do them what's wrong. Yeah.
[1:57:25] Of course not, right? So you're perfectly capable of controlling your temper. If somebody, if you're angry at your kids and somebody said, I'll give you a million dollars to not yell at them for five minutes, would you be able to not yell at them for five minutes? No, no. Hang on. I don't ignore the question. You can at least tell me you're going to ignore it. If somebody says, hey, I'll give you a million dollars to not yell at your kids for five minutes. Would you take that money and not yell at your kids for five minutes?
[1:58:00] Well, of course, I don't yell at them every day all the time.
[1:58:02] No, no. Let's say you were really angry and about to yell at them and someone said, I'll give you a cool million dollars if you don't yell at your kids for five minutes. Would you be able to swallow your rage and not yell at them?
[1:58:13] Sure.
[1:58:13] You would, right? Okay. So the reason that you yell at your kids is one reason and one reason only. It's because you give yourself permission to yell at your kids. Now, if there's a cop standing there, you don't give yourself permission. It's not out of your control. Let's say you're six months pregnant and someone comes along and says, I'll give you a million dollars to not be pregnant for five minutes. Could you take that?
[1:58:41] No.
[1:58:41] Right. So that tells you that being pregnant is outside the realm of free will after you're already pregnant. So the reason why you yell at your children is one reason and one reason only. And no, this is nonwithstanding the trauma and the childhood stuff, but that's close to a quarter century ago. So that's not as imminent and pressing. The reason you yell at your children, my friend, is because you give yourself permission to yell at your children and that's it. And if there's a cop standing there or somebody's offering you a million dollars, then you won't yell at your children. It's because you give yourself permission to yell at your children. If you imagine a cop in your house 24-7, right? Or if there was a cop in your house or, you know, imagine, I'm not saying this would ever happen, but imagine some child protective services worker comes over to check on your kids. Will you scream at them and call them stupid and ask them what the hell is wrong with them?
[1:59:36] No.
[1:59:36] No. So you're perfectly capable of not yelling at your children. The reason you yell at your children is not because you're overwhelmed, because it would be kind of overwhelming to have a cop right in front of you or a child protective services worker right in front of you. You'd still feel overwhelmed if somebody offered you a million dollars. You'd still have the same feelings of being overwhelmed or whatever, but you would find a way to stop it. So overwhelmed is an excuse. The reason you yell at your kids is you give yourself permission. And the question is, why? I mean, how did yelling at your daughter work out?
[2:00:15] Well, obviously it didn't work.
[2:00:16] Did you get what you wanted?
[2:00:19] No.
[2:00:19] No. I mean, she's estranged at the moment, right?
[2:00:23] Yeah.
[2:00:24] Okay. So it doesn't work. So why are you doing it with your son?
[2:00:31] I just, again, I don't, I don't know what to do. I allow, I just.
[2:00:38] I'm overwhelmed. Hang on, hang on. You know what not to do, which is if there was somebody there with authority, you wouldn't be yelling at your kids.
[2:00:47] So I should allow myself to be under fear to control me.
[2:00:51] No, you should not yell at, you should not scream at your kids and call them stupid. You know that, right? I'm not telling you anything you don't know. Like nobody ever looks at a parent screaming at their kids and calling them stupid and says, wow, that's some great parenting. I really, I gotta try and figure out how to pick that up, right? And you're not happy about it. You're not proud of it afterwards. You feel wretched, right?
[2:01:10] Yes, but I've also come to admit it. Most people like the parent that raised me the same way will never even apologize, validate, or acknowledge I made a mistake. Where I am validating, I'm admitting it. I'm being vulnerable and I'm asking for help.
[2:01:26] No, no, you can't ask for help. Hang on, hang on. you can't ask for help from your kids that's not fair right.
[2:01:31] I'm not asking for help because i'm asking help from you and i'm not understanding what your approach is here because i feel like you're shaming me more like i don't i'm not shaming you i'm trying i'm not shaming you listen listen.
[2:01:43] If shaming hang on if shaming is so bad my friend i mean this with all sincerity and all compassion i really do if shaming is so bad why do you shame your children.
[2:01:56] I'm going to do it to myself Why do you think I'm not good enough to date I fucking think I'm a horrible person I don't want to be with anyone Because I'm horrible I don't know what to do Okay.
[2:02:10] So you feel like a horrible person Because you yell at your children.
[2:02:14] For everything I feel like a failure in total As a human.
[2:02:20] Okay So that's more honest than the excuses, right?
[2:02:36] I mean, I punish myself, too. I sabotage myself. I refuse to do drugs and alcohol, but I overeat. My son's here now. I don't... I've been mom. Mommy's just a little sad, honey. Can you go see grandpa, honey?
[2:02:54] Sorry. Yeah, we can just be a few more minutes. I know you've got to take care of your son. I don't want to interfere with that. And again, big hugs and big sympathies. I'm fighting as hard as I can for you and your kids, right? I'm not trying to shame you. What I am trying to do is get you to stop yelling at your kids because that makes you feel ashamed.
[2:03:12] No, I don't want to. I've thought that I'm incapable, that I should just give my son up because I'm at the point where I don't know. I just, I don't know. I don't have answers. I don't know what to do.
[2:03:27] Do you know what's on the other side of maternal aggression, like what's below all of that yelling? No.
[2:03:38] What?
[2:03:39] Immense grief and sadness. And also, the other thing that happens when we make excuses, and you do, and listen, we all do. I'm right there with you, right? I mean, I'm down to the trenches with you. We all make excuses, right? But when you make excuses, you do end up blaming your kids a little bit more. Because if your life is difficult because of your kids, and it's not your fault, it has to be their fault. And then you're going to get more angry at them because of that. And that's not fair, right? I mean, obviously, we know that that's not fair. Your children didn't ask for the circumstances of their birth. They didn't ask for absent fathers and so on. But usually, and when I sort of got through the defensive stuff, then we got to the sadness and the self-criticism, right? And the sadness and the self-criticism is, I think, at the root of a lot of this aggression. So you were treated as fairly worthless certainly by the father of your first child of your daughter you were treated as worthless like he hit on you and just terrible terrible stuff right uh your father didn't work to protect you except when his granddaughter was in danger Do I have that memory right?
[2:05:08] Yes.
[2:05:08] And you were treated as not valuable and not worthwhile by your parents. Is that right?
[2:05:19] Yes.
[2:05:20] You were treated as a sexual object by this creepy, vile half-brother, right?
[2:05:28] Yes.
[2:05:30] And so you were not treated as someone who had value in and of herself, if that makes sense. And it's very hard for us to have more of a sense of our own value than our parents give us.
[2:05:50] If our parents treat us as worthless, it is very hard to feel worthwhile. Like in the same way, my parents didn't teach me Japanese, so I don't know Japanese. And if I want to learn it, it's going to be hard, hard work, right? So if, since your parents, and as a result, your first boyfriend, and then this guy who pursued you for six months, and then, you know, this last guy who pursued you for a month and so on. It's hard to feel that you have value except as a utility for other people.
[2:06:22] And so I think you're kind of trapped in this world of like, well, if I don't, if I'm not sexy, if I don't offer any sexual access, guys won't want me or like me just for me. So I have to offer the sexual access. But if that's just there for the sexual access, once they get that, they're going to leave and so on. And I really sympathize with that. And I sympathize with that, A, because it's something well worth sympathizing. But B, I don't have that power. I don't have that power to just have people interested in me because I'm sexy, right? Although I am sexy, but that's a different matter, right? So I don't have that power, and men don't really understand that power that women have. But it is a way of trying to deal with a feeling of worthlessness. And it is a way of saying, I only have value insofar as I have utility for other people. Maybe I'm a punching bag. Maybe I'm a sexual access person. Maybe I provide 80 hours a week of work. I just have to provide value to other people in order to have anyone in my life.
[2:07:30] I don't have value in and of myself. I have to work like crazy to provide value. Like the rich guy, he can't get anyone to hang out with him unless he rents a yacht and hires Paris Hilton to be the DJ or something like that, right? But then people, but he's basically all like the man who goes and says to a prostitute, I'll pay you 200 bucks to have sex with me. He doesn't believe that he can have a woman sleep with him unless he pays her $200. He doesn't feel sexy and attractive in and of himself because he has to pay. A woman, right? So I think that you feel that people aren't going to like you just for you. Therefore, there has to be something other in the equation, you know, being a workaholic, being a punching bag, being a sexual play thing or something like that. And that's really tough. And that is a very difficult place to be. It certainly is solvable, but I think that it's that sorrow, like who is going to care about me for who I am? Who is going to care about me just for me, not because of what I can do for them or how I can have sex with them or work so hard for them or, you know, something, but who is going to care and like me and love me for my essence, for who I am, rather than what I provide to them often at my own expense. I'm sorry to be so abstract, but does that kind of make sense?
[2:08:47] Yes.
[2:08:49] Right. So then the question is, and we can just spend a few minutes on this if you like. Again, I know you have a childcare care of, which means a lot. But the question is, how do you solve that? How do you solve that and what do you think i.
[2:09:04] Don't know right i don't know i'm still, um that's why i don't feel uh worthwhile that i'm i guess that term of damaged goods if you will, as a single parent as a as a woman who doesn't seem to have it so yeah i just i don't i don't know i i struggle to see my value and i chased school and certificates and whatever i can to try to build up a resume but uh it's the biggest thing i struggle with right.
[2:09:41] And so but even if you have economic value you still it won't solve the problem of not feeling valuable in in yourself if that makes sense.
[2:09:49] So i have good.
[2:09:52] News and bad news the the bad news is you can't ever be loved for just who you are, because that's what we do with babies and toddlers. Babies and toddlers don't have to earn or love any more than they have to earn their daily bread or pay for the roof over their head. So that time of babyhood and infancy where you are loved just for who you are without you having to do anything will never happen because you're not a baby or toddler, haven't been for a long time. And so there's some grieving to do that you will never get to be loved for just existing. That will never happen.
[2:10:29] Because it's inappropriate to treat adults. I mean, if you went on a date and somebody said, hey, I bought you a diaper and I'd love to change you on the table, you'd be like, get away from me, you freak. It's like really weird. I don't want to have any, whatever stuff you've got going on there, please keep it in your own private dungeon or something like that, but don't bring it to my dinner table. So if somebody tried to treat you as a baby or a toddler, or if you went out for dinner and somebody brought a high chair and gave you some pureed carrots or something and then wiped your face, that would be like, I'm an adult. What are you treating me like a toddler for? So you will never be loved just for who you are. That phase of babyhood and toddlerhood is gone forever. It can't come back. And now, sadly, I mean, once you accept that and grieve that loss, then you can start to work to be loved for who you are. Now, the way that I work with love, and I've been married for almost a quarter century and so on, so I think it's going pretty well. But the way that I work with love is we are loved for our virtues, our honesty, our moral courage, our directness, our integrity, the way that we positively treat those around us, especially our children.
[2:11:45] So if you feel bad about yourself and then you yell at your kids, you feel worse about yourself and then quality virtuous men will have great sympathy for you but they won't date you because they don't want to be around the harsh treatment of children and they don't want to be around both the harsh treatment of children and.
[2:12:06] The excuses of, well, you know, well, so I'm imperfect. I'm a work in progress, you know, blah, blah, blah. Right. I get overwhelmed and I'm stressed and like, oh, the excuses, right? Because excuses are the opposite of a virtue, right? So excuses, like if you're trying to lose weight and you say, well, I've had a tough day, I'm going to have half a cheesecake. You make an excuse, you're never going to lose weight, right? Like losing weight is when you stop giving yourself excuses. It's the same thing with exercise. If you know you need to exercise, but you don't do it, well, you know, I've got a bit of a headache. It's like, then you just make up excuses and you'll never actually exercise. So I'm a big enemy of excuses. I mean, for children, yes, obviously, and for you as a child, nothing but massive sympathy. But if you start taking away the excuses and say, excuses are promises of repetition. Whatever I excuse, I give myself permission to do again. Right? So if some guy cheats on his wife and then he makes up all these excuses. Well, you know, we haven't had much sex lately. She's not hugely affectionate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm kind of lonely. I'm in another city. Is he setting himself up to do it again?
[2:13:13] He is, right? So if we make excuses, we are promising ourselves that we can do it again. Excuses are promises of repetition. And that's why I say you yell at your kids, because you give yourself permission to yell at your kids. And because you give yourself permission and you give yourself the excuse, well, I yelled at my kids because I'm stressed, right? It's like, okay, but then the next time you're stressed, you're just going to yell at your kids again because you've said that's okay. And even if you say that's not okay, you say, well, I apologize to my kids. And listen, don't get me wrong, sister. That's fantastic and good on you. But if you apologize and then keep doing it again, the apology is no longer believable to your children. You know, like some guy who's like, well, I cheated on you. I'm really, really sorry. And then he goes and cheats on you again. He says, listen, I've cheated you. I'm really, really sorry. And then he goes and cheats on you again. Like at some point, the apology isn't going to mean anything, right?
[2:14:07] So it really is just saying it is unacceptable to yell at your kids. Now, I've got a whole book, Peaceful Parenting, which it's free and you should listen to that. And there's a short version if you don't have as much time as you need. So that goes into this in more detail. But if you want to stop doing bad things, and I think, I mean, I think we both agree that, you know, yelling at your kids and calling them names is not great. Then you just have to first just stop giving yourself excuses. Now, the problem is, though, when you stop giving yourself excuses, you stop accepting other people's excuses. And that can cause some challenges is in your relationships, which is why a lot of people hang on to their excuses. But it's, you know, what I'm here for primarily is you, of course, but primarily for your children. And the most important thing I think for you is to stop yelling at them. And that simply means there's no excuse for it. There's no excuse for it. I mean, listen, if you were low on money, would you go rob a convenience store?
[2:15:03] No.
[2:15:04] No, of course not. Right. So you find some way to get the money that didn't involve, you know, sticking a gun in someone's face. Right. And so if you're low on money, you don't have something on the table called, well, I'll just rob a convenience store. Like that's off the table. So you don't do it. And so when you get stressed, you have something on the table called yelling at my kids. And I'm saying to you, that needs to be as off the table as robbing a convenience store. Now, if somebody robs the convenience store says, well, the reason I robbed the convenience store as I was low on money, I would say, no, that's not. The reason you robbed the convenience store is that was on the table of things you were willing to do. If it's off the table of things you're willing to do, you won't rob the convenience store. You won't even really think of it. Now you have on the table yelling at your kids and calling them names.
[2:15:47] And that's because you give yourself permission to do it and you give yourself justification for do it. And then you apologize and do it again a couple of days later. And you just have to, And I know it's like easy to say, hard to do, but you just have to take that off the table. If you want to stop robbing convenience stores, you have to take robbing convenience stores off the table of possible things you will do. You just have to take yelling off the table. Say, I will burst into tears. I will pull over and sob. I will yell into a pillow late at night, but I will not yell at my children. Because when your first boyfriend, the father of your daughter, when he got angry, he was violent, right? And I'm sure he had excuses, right? And this is your father kind of fed into this when he said, well, what did you do right before? Like, how did you provoke him or that kind of stuff, right? But his violence was not at all justified. Do we agree on that?
[2:16:41] Yes.
[2:16:41] Right. So the reason he did the violence is he gave himself permission to do the violence. And it's not acceptable in any circumstances. And children experience verbal abuse as a kind of violence because it forms their identity. It carves deeply into the rock of who they are. And if the kids are internalizing and saying, well, what's happened is I'm stupid. What happens is there's something fundamentally wrong with me because mom keeps asking me what the hell is wrong with you.
[2:17:14] And if that gets carved deeply into who they are, they will view you as having damaged them, and they'll be right, and again, I say this with great sympathy and a big virtual hug from across the multiverse, but they will be right, and whatever is on the other side of not yelling at your kids is infinitely better than raising another kid who doesn't want to see you later on, right and it may even do something to to bring back your daughter into your orbit if that makes sense okay and i know i know you've you've got to go and all of that but is there anything that you wanted to mention as we sort of uh wrap things up.
[2:17:53] Um well i'm hoping there's something in the book i'm not sure i guess it's right now it feels very heavy and i'm not quite sure how to stop the habit I guess it's I understand the recognition and of it being wrong and and the accountability and to understand that there is capability but I still mentally feel um, I'm scared I guess I'm scared that I'm not, um sorry i'm very i do very harsh things even to myself right so i'm not sure how capable i feel um, I'm not. I'm making excuses because I'm ashamed with you, but I can make myself sick to punish myself. I don't know yet how to have compassion.
[2:18:54] And listen, you did also say that you were low on funds for therapy. If you want to do some talk therapy, I would certainly be happy to pay for some sessions. You can just, of course, email me. You can email me host, H-O-S-T, at freedomain.com. I'll drop this in an email to you as well. I'm very happy to pay for some therapy sessions for you because obviously you've had a very tough life. And I just, you know, although you say, oh, you're trying to shame me, I'm really trying to get you to stop shaming yourself with this sort of negative behavior. And if talk therapy, I'm a big fan of talk therapy. I've done it myself. And if that would be helpful, I would be very happy to offer that and get you started down that road.
[2:19:35] Well, thank you. I just that's I guess that I will definitely if you can send me a link or if I do want to look at your book too I do I do want to try um that's why I'm here I do want to.
[2:19:47] I just.
[2:19:48] I'm having a version.
[2:19:49] I will shoot you an email and I really do appreciate our conversation tonight I wish I could give you a big hug uh I can't but you know big virtual big virtual man better hug and uh yeah I'll shoot you an email if there's anything I could do to help you get started with therapy obviously I'm happy to pay and uh I obviously wish you the very best because it is a very tough situation. I'm really, really sorry for everything that happened to you as a child and as a young woman. It certainly can get better. And I hope that you find value in the free book.
[2:20:15] Thank you so much.
[2:20:16] You're welcome. All right. Take care.
[2:20:18] Bye.
[2:20:19] Bye.
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