0:00 - Awkward Beginnings
28:33 - Family Dynamics Unveiled
46:38 - The Challenge of Change
54:41 - Role Play with Dad
57:14 - Setting Boundaries
58:21 - The Power of Choice
1:00:16 - Understanding Addiction
1:07:13 - The Mother’s Perspective
1:15:38 - The Dynamics of Change
1:19:39 - Emotional Terrorism
1:23:38 - The Impact on Relationships
1:28:23 - The Importance of Honesty
1:35:54 - Therapy and Gender Dynamics
In this episode, Stefan engages in a profound conversation with a caller who has faced a significant emotional struggle due to verbal abuse from his father. The caller expresses gratitude for Stefan's philosophical insights, indicating a level of admiration that leads him to experience feelings of nervousness before sharing his story. The discussion starts with the caller revealing the painful encounter with his father, during which his father, under the influence of alcohol, uttered degrading statements asserting that the caller "fails at everything." This harsh and dismissive language has lingered in the caller's mind, leading him to contemplate leaving home, yet he grapples with fear and uncertainty about becoming independent.
As the caller discusses the dynamic of his relationship with both parents, it becomes evident that his father struggles with deep emotional issues likely stemming from a traumatic childhood, including experiences of abuse and neglect. The dialogue shifts towards the father's overwhelming emotional volatility and subsequent tendencies to lash out verbally, particularly when faced with dissent or questioning. The caller's experiences reflect a longstanding pattern of trying to appease his father's emotions and avoid conflict, an approach he feels is deeply rooted in fear and a desire for approval.
Stefan probes into the lasting impact of the verbal abuse and explores the historical context of the father-son relationship, revealing that such behaviors are not new but have been part of an ongoing theme in their interactions. The candid exploration leads the caller to recognize that his father's failings—personally and professionally—reflect a projection of the father's insecurities onto him. This theme of projection reveals itself again when comparing their social lives; the caller's dad disparages his son's lack of friends while struggling with his social isolation, underscoring a common dynamic in abusive relationships.
The conversation delves into the complexities of familial love, responsibility, and the fear of abandonment as the caller contemplates moving out while acknowledging the guilt that accompanies this urge. Reading philosophical texts has fostered a sense of clarity and agency for the caller, allowing him to articulate his needs and desires despite his father's conflicting emotional responses. Stefan emphasizes that the onus of change does not lie with the son, but rather with the father, who must seek help for his unresolved trauma and addiction.
Throughout the dialogue, Stefan displays empathy and support, encouraging the caller to consider therapy for both himself and his father. They discuss the challenges inherent in addiction, particularly how the father's longstanding dependency on alcohol influences his emotional responses and interactions with family members. The realization that the caller's father may be unwilling or incapable of change hits hard for the son, compelling him to reassess his expectations and hopes for their relationship.
Stefan shares insights about the necessity of honest communication within the family, asserting that the only way to navigate their relationship’s dysfunction is through transparency, even if it leads to discomfort. He urges the caller to delineate boundaries, especially if his father refuses to acknowledge the impact of his abusive words, which could jeopardize the son’s mental health in the long run.
As the interview progresses, it becomes clear that for the caller to cultivate healthier relationships outside his family, he must first address the core issues within his familial dynamic. Stefan underscores that finding love and fulfilling friendships may prove challenging while the caller remains intertwined with the toxicity from his father. The caller’s journey towards asserting his independence and finalizing his decisions about leaving home encapsulates a pivotal moment of self-empowerment brimming with potential for personal growth.
In the conclusion of the episode, the caller expresses appreciation for the conversation, recognizing the weight of burdens he has carried as a young adult navigating a toxic family environment. Stefan encourages the caller to reach out and seek continued support, highlighting the heroic nature of his introspection and the important steps he can take toward healing and building a life free from the chains of his father’s aggression. The episode closes with a note of hope and resilience, emphasizing the crucial need for self-care, reflection, and honest communication in the challenging terrain of family relationships.
[0:00] Just to chat with you again, lay it on me. How can I best help?
[0:04] Yeah, I'll get into the reason for I called. But I got to say, first, I was just thinking about calling you and kind of forgive me for some butterflies. I was just thinking about all that you've done for just the hours of work that you put in for philosophy. So it was just I got some butterflies right now.
[0:22] I'm glad to help and thank you for the kind words.
[0:25] So here's my uh my message i said a couple of weeks ago i received some verbal abuse from my father that has stayed with me and i would like some help processing i'm
[0:37] Sorry your audio just got kind of tinny i'm not sure if you moved away from the mic or something else.
[0:41] Try again a couple all right a couple weeks ago i received some verbal abuse from my father that has stayed with me and I would like some help processing it. I'm 21 years old and still live with my parents and younger brother. My father said those things to me. I had a strong feeling of leaving home that has still stayed with me. I am, however, afraid of leaving home and supporting myself on my own. I have about $35,000 saved up. I have generally felt that I waver a lot on my purpose in life and my dating and social life are relatively non-existent in the new town that my family and i moved to and you help with this would be greatly appreciated thanks and to expand upon that um the the verbal abuse that i think happened was um i had planned on finishing up a term in community college and our fall semester started and i just generally felt that a strong sense that I just I had no real goal or reason to be there and I expressed this to my dad and I came home one night and I didn't realize that he had been drunk until I smelt his breath later and after just saying hey I don't want to really continue with this right now I don't you know it just doesn't feel right right now he's just kind of sick
[2:07] He said that, you know, you go ahead and fail like you always do at everything and kind of stormed off. And I went to my room and then he came back again. And it was just kind of another thing of me trying to question him on why he would say something like that. And he would just he was saying things like, I just don't understand you. You don't have any friends here. You don't have a girlfriend. You don't have anything. thing um and then he was making like a strangling like a strangling motion with his two hands and uh all of it just like it just kind of i had that strong feeling in that moment of like i need to leave and it just opened my eyes as to how how could you love somebody and and act that way um it just completely changed how i viewed my dad and it stayed with me this happened two weeks ago so i'm just looking to have some help kind of processing that and uh you know how i can interact with him i guess i
[3:12] Am so sorry that's a terrible a terrible thing to hear from your own father the strangling to see does that mean like you're choking in life or you like what is what does the strangling mean do you think.
[3:25] I don't know i mean he's always been pretty um he's been very always very emotional i don't really remember a day going by where he hasn't gotten upset about something like just kind of angry uh temper tantrum me a little bit um and i don't know if it was like a violent thing as as just like uh i want to stop this right now and maybe that's why he was making those motions with those hands, I'm not quite sure.
[3:55] Okay, what is your history with your, I guess both of your parents, about things like discipline or being punished or things like that?
[4:06] So, I think the first time I can look back and say that I actually, like, I ever reasoned in my life was I've only been spanked or hit once, and I remember my reason being if I do what he says, i won't get hit and uh i just continue to follow that and kind of do what he says and try not to upset him and um that that was i i just kind of stayed to that keel for the rest of uh the rest of my time living with him and being in my formative years and um we haven't been really an emotional family we've kind of all i think we've all kind of stuffed that down now that i'm you know, listening, trying to listen to more of your calls and receive, um, what you've been talking about with others. But, um, yeah.
[4:58] Okay, and how else were you punished other than, I guess you were saying, just hit the once, right?
[5:06] I think it's always just more been through verbally, like whether it's been trying to get me to do stuff in school. I've never really enjoyed school. You know, just kind of yelling at me or like math, just kind of like pushing me to the point of crying in math. I remember that. Trying to get me to do multiplication and things like that. And just, uh, just really, it really felt like no reason to do that. Oh, wait, I, I, now I remember I have been hit another time, which was, I guess when I was a kid, I was really strong and I was relatively strong for being a kid. And I remember, uh, starting this pillow fight with my dad and hitting him. And I didn't, I guess I didn't realize how hard I hit him. And then he used like all of his force to hit me and i remember just crying and running to my mom and he was like really upset and angry about that that i'd hit him like that and maybe he was drunk at that time as well i'm not quite sure but it just didn't make that much sense to me at the time okay
[6:09] I mean yeah i mean play fighting has within it always that's going to happen one time or another right it's part of sort of learning how to manage to strengthen all of that so okay i get that okay Okay, so what was the verbal stuff that you were subjected to?
[6:27] It was more just like, and maybe it wasn't verbal. I'd love to hear whether what I'm saying to you is even legitimate. I know you've got much worse cases that you've dealt with. But I, you know, just kind of like, just like really just pushing for no reason. And I think, I think my dad knew that I was afraid of not doing what he wanted me to do. And so he wouldn't really say anything, but he would just go and like do things. If you want to, wanted me to like get, get something out of me, he would just go and do it and have like this really smug, like look of, I guess, of just disappointment. I'd just go and do what he, do what he do. Does that make sense?
[7:16] Yeah. Yeah. I get that. I get that.
[7:18] Um, it, it, it was a lot of just like, uh, it's like leaving or slamming the door and stuff like that and not really communicating with me, uh, when he was upset about things.
[7:30] Right. Okay. Um, do you remember the kind of things that he would get upset about?
[7:39] Uh, I just, just when I think we, uh, we, we, we differed about things. I, I, I, like we, uh, I got, uh, three or four years ago, I got into, uh, Tolstoy and kind of challenging some ideas. He challenged my ideas in the Bible and I was kind of echoing what Tolstoy was talking about and he just kind of stormed away after that and, and, and just didn't really, you know, it didn't really communicate with me. And even when I talked to him two days ago about how I felt that what he said was abuse and just had felt, I still have the strong urge to leave. He just didn't, he kind of clammed up and didn't really talk. And he said that he was upset and angry, but just didn't communicate to me his feelings or anything like that.
[8:31] Okay. Got it. Got it. And how does your mom figure in all of this?
[8:35] Um she just kind of puts up with it i think uh she uh she's never really been one to i think she just she just tried to keep the marriage alive i mean i after i that verbal abuse happened i just wanted to leave the home and my brother rolled up at the same time my younger brother and he told me a story about how he is they were coming back from hockey practice and he was completely drunk and just like swerving on the road and I was like I was trying to tell him that was that I could have been your life and that's that's something that needs to be rung up and I remember my I talked to my mother about it and she was just like I was just trying to keep the peace and I really wanted to divorce him then and leave him for that, but I decided to keep with for you guys.
[9:31] Oh, so there was the drunk driving stuff, right?
[9:34] Yeah, with my brother. Yeah.
[9:38] Sorry, was that your brother driving or your father?
[9:40] My brother was in the passenger seat on the way leaving hockey practice, and my dad was apparently from Oklahoma.
[9:47] Your dad was driving, okay.
[9:49] Really drunk and swerving. Okay.
[9:54] And what's his history of drinking?
[9:58] He told me yesterday that he's an addict, and um his uh his his childhood life is is is just one of it's to me it's it's really terrible he was um born out of rape he was uh he's watched his dad to get shot i mean it's just the crazy terrible things he was he was raped when he was younger by an older female i think he has a lot of trauma that he hasn't really gone to therapy for and processed. And he said that he was addicted to cocaine when he was younger and that he's still an addict to alcohol now. And that would really be his relationship with all those things.
[10:45] Holy crap. I'm still trying to pick myself up on the floor from this list.
[10:53] Wow yeah he's he's he's uh got a number of stories like that that just it's uh it's it's amazing wow
[11:04] And how old were you when you found these or found out about these stories.
[11:09] I think he he told me pretty young and uh he's always been uh he's always been open that like uh He's never said don't do drugs, but he's just been trying to show you. His philosophy is like, I'll show you the foolishness that happened in my life by doing drugs and being involved in that. And still nothing really emotional there, just kind of like observing, look at this and don't do this. Does that make sense?
[11:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. What the heck is your mom's story that she's marrying this guy?
[11:50] Um they come from a very small town i i think one of the supposedly their their fifth cousins but uh um they uh she uh she was also a product of divorce like my dad was and um they knew each other i think very young 18 or 19 and uh they married when they were 25 and didn't have me until I was, I think they were almost 35, 35 or 40, I think. So I hope that helps to answer that.
[12:31] It's not the level of trauma that your dad experienced, right?
[12:34] I don't think so, no.
[12:38] Do you know what it was that drew your mother to your father?
[12:44] Um i think that he he uh was kind of a lady's man at that time i mean he uh he tells me he tells me that he was kind of out partying and he was out supposedly uh i don't know if this was in uh a different time period but uh he was into coca that time and also dealing it as well um so i i I don't know. What was, could it have been like, uh, maybe interest in bad boy? I'm not quite sure,
[13:14] But, uh, I believe it was here. Very good looking guy when he was younger.
[13:20] Yes.
[13:22] And it's your mom. Uh, good looking too. Or was she, uh.
[13:27] I think so. I think so. Yeah. She, my dad expressed to me before that he had, there were more beautiful people, you know, beautiful candidates that he, that, liked him and he had relationships with, but he wanted to choose the one that hopefully would be less of an emotional wreck than the ones that he had dealt with before.
[13:49] Less of an emotional wreck. And would you say that your mom is less of an emotional wreck?
[13:54] Yes. It's kind of joked in our family that my dad's the mom of the house. And I've kind of been told, I'm like, you'd be good to be a doctor just because you're so calm. And And I feel like I'm way calmer and reserved than my dad. So, yes.
[14:15] Okay. All right. So what is your relationship like with your dad or how has it been over the course of your childhood?
[14:25] We've, we've always done things together and, uh, in terms of like when I was young, we did a lot of activities like fishing together and stuff like that. And, um, when I was probably 10 or 12, that was a common thing. But as I've started to get older and you, you mentioned this in your last call, but, um, really ever since that, past two weeks and maybe, maybe a year ago, I've started just to feel like kind of a, a growing disrespect and seeing just, just to me, the lack of, of being a leader with the, with the, the, you know, the emotional just temper tantrumness and, um, kind of me trying to appease him and him not acknowledging that and saying that it's time to kind of go on your own path and be an adult. And, um, yeah, I've just kind of been growing. You said contempt in your last call, but I don't know if it's contempt as it is just after that thing that happened, the verbal abuse two weeks ago, I've just felt kind of, if it wasn't my dad, I would say outright hate right now. So.
[15:36] Oh, you feel hate, right?
[15:38] I just feel angry. And, um, but until, Until me listening to you, I haven't really ever processed or even allowed that anger to be in my life. I've just kind of shoved it out. And just now I'm starting to just trying to let it flow.
[15:57] Okay. Now, this is not to say that there's anything wrong with anything that you're feeling. But knowing what you know about your father's history, where does that have you land in terms of sympathy or something like that?
[16:19] I have sympathy for him, and I might think that's why I'm afraid of not doing what he says, because I think it's just a terrible, terrible childhood that he went through. And I'm just curious what the line would be of that sympathy, but also kind of going your own way and being your own person. Does that make sense?
[16:52] It kind of does but I also want to make sure that I understand it tell me a little bit more about it.
[17:01] I just feel really bad for him sometimes and I feel like I don't know if this is the card that he meant to play two days ago when I talked to him but he was like after I told him that I really feel that I should move out he was he was and he expressed me that he was an alcoholic he was like maybe it's just one of those things that i'll have to deal with that will push me over the edge and um that that that just brought about some less sympathy and more just more anger uh that you would kind of pull that card on somebody but still i feel really bad for him so it's just two two opposing forces of like Like, sympathy, I want to do, I want to help him out, but also, he's, it just feels like a little bit manipulation from him as well, and that angers me.
[17:51] Oh, that he's admitting to these faults now that you want to move out, right?
[17:55] Yeah. Yeah.
[17:59] And what does your dad do for a living?
[18:03] I can't really...
[18:04] You don't have to give me details. I'm just generally the field.
[18:10] Healthcare. Let's say that.
[18:13] Okay. Low level, medium level, high level?
[18:17] He never got his bachelor's, so he kind of muddied his way into probably a medium level. I'd say medium level.
[18:29] Okay. Got it. Got it. All right. So what do you think is your next plan in terms of, like you said, you want to move out and you sort of get your own job, your own place or that sort of thing?
[18:49] Yeah i've i've listened to some other calls that you had with people who had relatively similar experiences and it just kind of it's confirmed my feelings and my convictions even more um that i i have to move out um i've already got a job and uh not necessarily you know ideal job but it's uh i have a lot of freedom here and um sorry
[19:16] Here you're being where at home.
[19:18] Uh freedom at my job a
[19:22] Freedom at your job okay.
[19:22] Yeah um but um yeah that that's just my next step but it was it over the last probably the the end of the two weeks and then he talked to me um i kind of felt that feeling maybe less than a bit or like me feeling guilt for that feeling And, um, after he talked to me and kind of said those things, I'm like, it felt like a card of, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll just drink again because you don't, it could, because you're going to leave. Um, then it kind of reignited it. That's why I wanted to call you.
[20:00] Oh, so sorry. Let me try it. So he said he, he was an addict after you said you were going to leave and your concern is that he's going to start drinking more. He's still drinking, isn't he?
[20:11] Yeah. Yeah, but he said that he's working on it. It was weird because he said that he hadn't been drinking in two months, and that timeline didn't line up with two weeks ago when the verbal abuse thing happened because I felt like I could smell alcohol on his breath. So I don't know if that was a lie from him, but the main thing that angered me was just the fact that he said, maybe it'll be one of these things that I'm trying, Trying not to be an alcoholic, but maybe it'll be one of these things that'll push me over the edge, you leaving, because it's going to hurt me a lot.
[20:48] Oh, gosh. Ouch, man. Oh, I'm so sorry. That's not good at all on his part. I mean, because that puts a lot of pressure on you, right?
[21:01] Yes.
[21:04] Oof. Now, did he ever acknowledge that he had been verbally aggressive or hostile in these kinds of ways?
[21:14] So I just said to him that I felt that that was verbal abuse, what you said. And he apologized, but he didn't acknowledge that it was verbal abuse.
[21:27] So how did the apology go then, if he wasn't apologizing for anything in particular?
[21:32] He just said i'm i'm i'm working on it i'm an alcoholic i apologize for for what happened and um maybe i should have pressed it more uh of him you know this actually was verbal abuse but he it was just kind of a vague i apologize and uh moving on to why moving out is is bad doesn't make any sense and you're going to lose all your savings and stuff like that huh
[22:01] Okay, got it so i mean i obviously want to make sure i'm doing the best that i can, uh with regards to helping you so what can i help you with the most.
[22:20] I guess, and maybe it's just me diving more into your real-time relationships more, but I'm curious just how to even go about this. I still live with him now, and I still kind of feel that, I don't know if it's contempt, I'm not quite sure, but I just don't have any real respect for the way that he acted right now. And, you know, I know you don't provide an answer for people, but is it, I mean, I still feel that I have to move out. I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily a wise choice, but it's one that my intuition tells me that it's the right thing to do.
[23:11] Right. Okay. All right. So let me run through, because I'm sure he's been verbally harsh before. So I just want to run through the details of what he said. And make sure I understand why this one is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Not that I have any disagreements with your feelings or anything like that. I just want to make sure. So run me through what he said again that is the most memorable for you.
[23:40] Just the two weeks ago, it was just him saying that, you know, you fail at everything. You don't have any friends. You don't have any prospects. You don't have anything going on. I don't understand you, which I don't understand you. I felt like, well, you've known me for 21 years. How could you not understand me?
[24:02] So hang on a second. So you fail at everything. No friends, no prospects, right?
[24:08] Yes.
[24:10] And then he meant no job, right?
[24:12] I have a job right now, and I had a job then.
[24:15] Oh, like so, but it's like, does he mean it's like a dead-end job?
[24:20] Yeah he was just really eager on me going to college uh he was i think he was kind of hurt that i didn't want to go okay
[24:29] Okay so you failed at everything no friends dead-end job uh just and did he did he implied no college not he didn't say that directly right.
[24:40] I think it was more of an more of an implication yeah okay
[24:44] And then uh i don't understand you right.
[24:47] I don't understand you. And then the two days ago, him making that, you know, I might drink and go back into my addiction because you're leaving.
[25:03] Okay. Again. All right. So let's go through these. Because this is the, I mean, they're incredibly scathing, destructive and damaging. Like, you know, there's certain things that you can say in a relationship that just can't be undone. You know, it's like when some, I don't know, husband yells at his wife, I hate you. I wish I'd never married you. Like, it's funny, I had a friend many years ago whose wife got so angry at him at one point that she yelled at him, like, they were married for, like, 20 years, and a couple of years into the marriage, she yelled at him. And the marriage continued, but they never had kids, and they ended up divorcing, like, I don't know, 17 or 18 years later. Later and to me like the marriage died then like the marriage died when she she said that unless you know when we're all allowed to make mistakes and you can say stuff and then it's like oh my gosh i can't believe i said that clearly i've got some angry issues i really need to find a way to deal with that i'm so sorry like you know all of that stuff where you genuinely are horrified at what you've done and and want to make improvements and so on but there's stuff that it just it like like, brands itself into your heart. And there's like, almost like there's no, I mean, if you're going to undo it, it has to be really, really quick. Because if it sits, as you said, for a couple of weeks, and then there's this escalation of, well, you're going to drive me more to drink, kid. I mean, that's it, man. I mean, how can you undo all of this?
[26:25] Yeah, that's really how I felt. It felt just like my eyes had been completely open and there's, you know, you're woken up, there's no going back.
[26:33] Right. Okay. All right. All right, so let me go through these and make sure I sort of get where they may have deeply landed in your heart. Okay, you fail at everything. So let's look at your father. Because the things that tend to hit us the most tend to be projections. They tend to be like, you know, this is an old communist trick, so to speak. I'm not calling your father a communist, but accuse other people of what you yourself are doing. I'm sure you've heard that, that kind of thing, right? So. You fail at everything. So your dad is in his 40s or 50s.
[27:29] He's late 50s.
[27:30] Late 50s. Okay. Wow. Awesome. Okay, so he's in his late 50s. So his career is mostly over, right?
[27:39] Yes.
[27:39] Okay. So has he been a success in his career?
[27:46] I think it's just been pretty average.
[27:51] Well, if he's a smart guy, and I assume that he is a smart guy, then he's doing considerably worse than average. If after 35 years in the workplace, he's only, well, actually, no, 35, let's see here. Yeah, so if he started working at 18, and he's in his late 50s, that's 40 years in the workplace, right?
[28:15] Yeah.
[28:19] Now, if after 40 years in the workplace, he's only made it to the middle, and he's an intelligent guy, it's kind of a disaster right.
[28:33] Yeah and he said to me before and somebody else has called in and said the exact same thing that their dad has said but uh kind of the always the he's talking about the would have been stories if i would have started this business if i would have done that i would have had so much more and all this stuff i just never did it and stuff like that kind of the lamenting type thing right
[28:55] Now i don't have any particular issue with people who don't achieve much success in their careers because there's lots of ways of measuring success right it's it's not all about you know your business card like american psycho style it's not all about your your income you don't measure a man solely by the size of his wallet but you got to be successful somewhere, So, you know, maybe just maybe. This, your dad, okay, maybe he didn't make a lot of money or achieve much professional success, but he did a huge amount for charity and he did a lot of volunteering and he delivered meals to the elderly or he, I don't know, took in a bunch of kids who needed foster care or it could have been any number of other nice, good, helpful, positive things that he did over the course of his life. I assume that that's not much of a factor with regards to your father?
[29:57] No.
[29:58] Okay. So no particular kindness or charity. Or it could be that he has really focused on devoting himself to the well-being of his family to the point where he didn't get much ahead in his job because he was just so devoted to his family and his family is really grateful and all that. I mean, you know, when my daughter was born, I sort of made a pretty conscious decision to not write any books for like 10 years. And I write, I was writing like two books a year. So that's like 20 books that I decided not to write. Say, ah, he hasn't been as prolific as some other writers. And it's like, well, that's true. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, relative to other writers, I have written a lot less, but I decided to devote my energies into to being a good father and a husband and so on, right? So there could be other things that could cut back on how much money you make and those things could be entirely legitimate, but it doesn't sound like he's been much of a success as a husband or father either, right?
[31:01] No, and especially for my brother, my younger brother, he was gone for most of the week and wasn't really there for him. And he lives in the same house, same basement, just plays a lot of video games. So I don't think that's been a very good fruit.
[31:20] So your dad was gone for most of the week?
[31:23] Yeah, he would go and work in another state and then fly back on the weekends.
[31:29] Uh, that sounds fairly high level if the company's willing to fly him back and forth.
[31:35] Okay. Yeah.
[31:37] Um, could be, well, do you know, did your father, you don't have to give me obviously exact details, but did he make, I don't know, did he make more than 150,000 a year?
[31:49] I think just under that, maybe, uh, maybe kind of nearing that, but never, never over.
[31:55] Oh, you know, that's not bad. That's not bad. said, US, I assume. So yeah, honestly, that's not terrible when it comes to, I mean, that certainly is far above the median. So I mean, yeah, for a guy without college, I'd say that's pretty good with regards to his career. So okay, there's a little bit of a gold star there, right? And so I want to obviously be fair, right? So as a father, as a husband, he did not do well. As a member of his community who provides valuable resources and helps a lot of people in the community, he didn't do well. Professionally, I'm not going to sneeze at near 150 with no college degree and being flown back and forth because that's the kind of value you provide. So, okay. So I would say some success there.
[32:50] Okay.
[32:53] Okay, so you fail at everything. Your father has failed to deal with his past. Is that fair?
[33:02] Yes.
[33:03] Okay. And your father has failed to get therapy.
[33:07] Yes.
[33:08] And your father has failed to deal with his alcoholism.
[33:11] Yes.
[33:12] And your father has failed to deal with his rage issues.
[33:16] Mm-hmm.
[33:16] And your father has failed to take accountability for the bad deeds that he's done with regards to being you know harsh and cruel to you yes okay so that that's a lot of failure and i mean the money stuff doesn't make up for that uh so but that is a that is a lot of failure to have in your life as a whole uh he has failed to generate i mean you're saying that your mom has wanted to leave him in the past is that right yes okay so he's failed to generate uh sustained love from his wife he's failed to generate uh sustained love and respect from his children and really that's what matters in life i mean the money stuff is not not bad and there's no issue with the money stuff but it uh it's not a lot of success to just be making some decent coin but have all the people in your life kind of dislike you i don't think there's many people he would consider that very successful, right?
[34:14] Mm-hmm.
[34:15] Okay. So when he says you fail at everything... Um, I assume that would be projection because I think that, I mean, you, you can't, I mean, as such a young man, you can't be objectively judged to have failed at a bunch of stuff because you're like 21, right?
[34:34] Yeah.
[34:35] It's a little early. It's like saying that somebody is just gearing up for the race. You've lost the race. It's like, no, no, haven't really started that much yet. So, okay. So that that's projection, right? Okay. Uh, no friends. friends no friends no friends uh right uh how is your father's friend circle he has none right so projection also if as a parent if you complain that your kids lack social skills i'm not really sure how that ends up condemning your kids that much yeah you know if i you know when i taught taught my daughter a lot of the words that she knows, do I then get to yell at her and say, you know all the wrong words. You know the wrong words for everything. My job to teach, right? Okay. So that's got the ferocity of projection going on there as well, it would seem. Dead-end job. I mean, maybe he had more potential, but his job didn't seem too dead-end. if he ends up at that. So it's a disaster if you have no college. Maybe he feels that way, right? But the big one, I think, is I don't understand you.
[36:01] Yeah.
[36:02] So what do you think that means to him?
[36:08] Maybe it's because while he was yelling at me, I was just asking him questions and trying to, I hadn't really dove too deep into the real time relationships yet, but I was just trying to ask questions and be calm about it. And it's just, you know, why are you feeling that way? And, you know, those things that you're saying hurt me. Why are you saying that? And he said, I don't understand you. And I just don't understand those questions. And he knows that I'm very vocal. I mean, we try to do church sessions together. I'm not necessarily Christian, but I'll go over passage and ask questions with them. And maybe he was upset about that as well. Like, I don't understand your questions. I don't understand you. I don't understand why you are inquisitive like this. Why don't you just do what I say? It just felt like, well, you've known me for 21 years. is how could you not understand me? How could you, you know, do you even know me at all if you really say that vehemently? I don't understand you.
[37:15] Right. I think I might know what he means, and it's my fault. It's my fault. So, when you're doing the real-time relationship stuff, and your father says, i don't understand you what he's saying is there's an an influence here that doesn't match my parenting okay so if that makes sense yeah so something is happening for him that is not explained by any of his parenting and i assume that would be something like maybe my influence or the influence of other people. I guess you said Tolstoy as well, right? Other people who have had an influence on you.
[38:07] Yes.
[38:08] So he's, I don't understand you because I'm reactive and emotional and kind of a bully and you're not. So I don't understand you. You have gone outside my influence and you are not matching my example, based on how I raised you. Does that sort of make sense?
[38:29] Yeah and it makes me think that the whole i might drink uh because you leave because it's going to hurt me it's it's like i'm coming out of your influence and you're realizing it it seems like to me and you're trying to do anything to grab pull me back right
[38:44] Yeah yeah it'd be like uh if if, If I was raised, I'm sort of trying to figure this one out. If I was raised on some desert island or something like that, and my father taught me English, and then I started speaking to him in Japanese, he'd be like, I don't understand you. This is not the language I taught you. I don't understand you. You so when you start instead of using his example of aggression and volatility, you are reasonable and curious, then i think it makes sense to me at least why he would not understand you, in other words hey man this isn't the way i raised you to be volatile and emotional and and aggressive and vicious and like what are you doing with all these reasonable questions i don't understand you yeah this isn't the way that i was raised this is not the way i raised you lord knows it doesn't seem like your mom would have taught you all of this stuff where's all this coming from does that make sense yeah.
[40:00] And i've i've really just it's kind of been blossoming into a love just just been reading some of those authors There's Tolstoy or Montaigne and people who have been a little bit more questioning and reasonable, and I think I might have adopted that, and maybe he notices that.
[40:18] Right. So I don't understand you. I think why that is so painful is he's saying, you have an outside influence that I don't care to learn about. If that makes sense. So he recognizes that you have some outside influence, but he doesn't say, I don't follow the way this interaction is going. This is very different for me. Where are you getting, not where are you getting this from, like aggressive, but just like, well, where are you, where are you getting this approach from? Like, how is it happening in this way? because this is not coming from me yeah.
[41:08] And when i i noticed that that's really good and i noticed that when we do these these bible sessions where i ask questions is that he when when there's something that i do think it has some substance and could alter the way that goes against the mantra of of kind of the the baptist or whatever he grew up in belief he just kind of clams up and doesn't really know it's either he doesn't understand it or he's just trying to shut it out like don't i don't even want to think about that
[41:38] Right no i mean i certainly know that, uh for my father sorry for my for my my mother she recognized as did my family of course that i was very much into aristotle and then ayn rand and so on so i was very much into that stuff, and i remember my mother very bitterly saying you know like well ayn rand raised you not me like just and it's like well why didn't you read some, why didn't you just read some but she wouldn't right and so there's this sort of panic the parents get if they feel like they have that their children are going elsewhere for wisdom it's it's almost like a if a woman is is like a bad wife she's a bad wife and her husband obviously is getting affection elsewhere, then she's she's really upset right.
[42:47] And because of that she's going to get well i just don't understand you and rather than say i wonder what's happening, that is causing these kinds of issues what can i do to fix it instead of any of that she just gets mad right yeah and there's this hostility rather than an attempt to understand to understand what might be going on.
[43:15] Yeah. Do you think that the more that I kind of, you know, get into philosophy, the more that gap is just widening, or?
[43:26] Let's see here. The more you get into philosophy, so the more you get into philosophy, okay, so given your interest in philosophy and what you've learned, what is it that you would most like your father, if you could sort of say stuff to your dad and have him for sure do it, what is it that you would most like him to do?
[43:58] You just to be able to express how he actually is in the moment feeling and reason at the same time i i felt recently that there's just been there's been like a like a just not not not him it's it's an image of him and i think he's i think he does know that i i kind of have this disrespect for right now and he's kind of putting up a front to it so i would wish that he'd be honest with me i wish that he would say his feelings and uh whenever we would get into a discussion about some some reason or some philosophy that we would be able to engage each other with reason and not just this clamming up okay
[44:41] So that's a lot of sort of saying well i wish he had x y and z outcomes outcomes but what process would he go through do you think in order to try and get to those kinds of outcomes or to give him the best chance of getting to those kinds of outcomes.
[44:59] The process would would would be an be an eagerness to to learn more and an eagerness to to change and go no that
[45:07] Would be a motivation not a process what would he do if you were to give him specific tasks or what would he do.
[45:17] Read with me.
[45:19] I'm sorry, he would what?
[45:21] Read with me or ask questions with me or listen and talk back and not clam up. Are those processes?
[45:35] I mean, read with you. So you would go through, he would go through with your father, the books that you were enjoying or finding rich or meaningful. For and you would want him to accompany you on that reading journey and discuss what you were doing right.
[45:50] Yeah i mean kind of what we've been what i've what i tried to set up now with their the sessions where we talk about the bible but where he's actually engaged
[46:01] Sorry what you mean by actually engaged.
[46:03] I just haven't felt that he's been authentic and when and those questions that I ask him about, you know, the nature of God and these things like that, and, you know, just general questions that come with each passage about, you know, sometimes in the Gospels about morality and whether this is right or wrong, just that he would push more, that he would, that it wouldn't be this superficial thing of, oh, this is what the Bible says, and, you know, we just go along with it. It's that there's a discussion about it. Does that make sense?
[46:38] A little bit, a little bit. Okay, what do you think are the barriers to him doing that, the most fundamental barriers?
[46:53] I suppose that you'd have to want to do that, right? So if somebody doesn't want to do that, how can they change?
[47:03] How can they change?
[47:06] Yeah. And maybe it's just that I have to accept, and it's kind of hard for me to believe right now, but that maybe he can't change.
[47:19] Okay, so what are the barriers to him changing, do you think? Let's say he can't change at the moment, and it seems that that is the case. So why do you think he can't change?
[47:46] I mean you could say from trauma in the past right but he is responsible for himself he's an adult right so what's preventing him from changing I'm not sure
[48:05] Do you think that he is capable of changing at the moment as he is?
[48:16] My gut says no.
[48:18] Okay. I would certainly accept that. Okay, so if he's not responsible for changing as he is now, was there a time when he was able to change, do you think? Or can you think of that as a whole?
[48:38] Maybe when he was more impressionable. Maybe when he was my age or in his formative years, maybe he would have been able to change then. I think you've said this too, and that past a certain point, it's very difficult for somebody to change. So maybe in his formative years, he'd be able to change then, but I don't see how somebody in their late 50s, how they could change that dramatically.
[49:10] Right, okay. So, yeah. If there was one task that you could get him to do, what do you think it would be? One specific task is to wave a wand and get him to appreciate or do something.
[49:31] I think to fully acknowledge, like you said, that what I did was abuse to you, and that we would try to uncover the abuse in the past as well, and apologize for that as well.
[49:51] So you mean the abuse that he did against you?
[49:55] Yes.
[49:56] Okay. And how do you think he would, what do you think would be the best way for him to approach that?
[50:08] Just to be upfront and, and, and to say what, what, what I did two weeks ago was verbal abuse. I, I know that you're still hurting right now. I can, I can see it from you. I do understand you, and I want to uncover what this, you know, this boil up that's happened in you and this straw that's broke the camel's back and you wanting to leave. Why do you want to leave? And what's been all the things that have been leading up to this, and, you know, how can I apologize for that?
[50:44] Right, okay. So, what's his relationship like with his parents if they're still alive? Yeah.
[50:53] His father passed and his mother, his mother had him, his mother was raped and then had him. And he dealt with a lot of neglect from her. And she went through one of those crazy, I forget the movie's Shutter Island, but with those crazy medical experiments. Because she had a stroke and they tried to help her and they did that one of those medical experience with the brain. I'm totally blanking on the name of it, but, um, it, they cut off a piece of her brain and they made it worse. And, uh, she's just been kind of, uh, brain dead ever since and in a nursing home. And, uh, he, he visits her probably once every year, but he's, he, I think, I think he acknowledges that she wasn't a very good mother and, uh, just does it out of, I guess, a custom, a duty that I have to do. I have to go see my mom because everybody else thinks it's weird if I don't go see my mom. Um, so yeah, okay. Is it probably once a year?
[52:02] Okay. Got it. So I would say that what would probably be, the best for your dad would be to go to therapy. Some sort of talk therapy.
[52:29] Yeah. And would that be something that I'd have to relay to him? Or is it, do you say it? If they say no, do you just forget about it and just, that's their decision or?
[52:43] Okay. Let me, let me just try a quick role play here with your dad. If you could just pretend to be him for a couple of minutes.
[52:49] Okay, sure.
[52:51] Okay, so if I were to say something like, you know, dad, our relationship is really not going well. Like you said, some really scathing things to me a couple of weeks ago. It's really sort of sat in my brain, and it's really difficult and unpleasant. And, you know, I'm obviously concerned and worried about your drinking and the fact that you would say to me that you might drink more if I move out and stuff like that. Also, you know, really unpleasant and difficult for me.
[53:22] Obviously, you've told me for many years about what happened to you as a kid, that you were the product of rape, that you were sexually assaulted as a child, and other terrible things that happened, for which I have massive, massive sympathy. But in the research that I've done, talk therapy is very, very helpful and effective at these kinds of things, really trying to help these kinds of things. Things and i would really i would actually almost like think of it as a personal favor if you would consider talking to a a therapist because i mean i'm not trying to be overly critical here but you know saying that i'm a failure at everything i've got no friends and you know everything in my life is terrible and and all of that that's not very nice to hear And I want to continue to have a good relationship with you, but I can't do it with that kind of stuff floating around. So I'd get on my knees if it would help to just try and really, really ask you to talk to a counselor and see if you can figure out how to deal with these really, really terrible traumas that you were subjected to as a kid.
[54:41] Huh that's uh that's that's interesting yeah i'll uh i'll check that out i'm i'm definitely definitely an addict right and i got a lot of problems and uh i think i'll attend a an aa meeting or maybe do something online with them but uh yeah that's that's uh that's interesting
[55:01] Okay and obviously you can take a little bit of time to think about it i would i don't want this to just kind of vanish into the ether and i'm not saying that it would but these things do have a bit of a habit of you know for all of us right i forget about things too uh will you let me know whether you will or won't see a counselor in say, a week like can you tell me that within a week.
[55:28] I'll think about it i'll uh i'll let you know
[55:32] I know and i'm asking you by when because i don't want to chase you right i don't want to have to nag you right lord knows men get enough of that as a whole in this world so i don't want to chase you i don't want to nag you so you know i mean, this is how it works at work right you you say you're going to do something and and then people say well when is it going to be done right that this happens all the time at work so i'm not trying to corner you or bully you or anything like that i just i do you want two weeks i mean i just i just need some time so i can circle back and check with you and not just get this maybe later maybe later stuff which may which which could happen right.
[56:15] Yeah, well, I mean, this is, I think I want to do the AA right now and just start with that. And I know that's something you've talked about before, that you've gone to a counselor recently as well. So it might be checked now, but I think I'm just going to stick with the AA for now.
[56:38] Well, as I said, I would consider it a personal favor. I also think it's something that I kind of deserve because you were pretty harsh with me a couple of weeks ago, as you have been intermittently over the course of my life. So one of the ways that I would consider our relationship on the repair end is if you would take my advice and talk to a therapist. It's really, really important to me.
[57:15] Okay yeah i'll uh i'll i'll i'll i'll i'll let you know okay
[57:20] And by when will you let me know.
[57:27] Speaking outside right now i just can't i i think it would be circular but maybe he would go um
[57:35] No i i wouldn't i i just i mean as playing as you you you know the way that this stuff goes in dysfunctional families is people will say yeah i'll look into it and then they never get back to you right right so so that like a promise without a deadline is just a distraction action it's gaslighting right so that's why i need to know within two weeks or i need you know a week or whatever right yeah you know maybe i'll go to ai aa that's not what you're asking right, yeah so it is important to know whether you have any weight with people in terms of giving them him advice. And if, if he is still, no, it has to be on my terms, uh, my way of doing things.
[58:22] I'm not gonna surrender to your schedule or your preferences or anything like that. Then it's still just control stuff, right?
[58:33] Yeah. Wow.
[58:36] So, uh, I think in personally, I've, I found it helpful. Then I just make the case. So this is what I want. You don't have to provide it, of course, right? You can't force your dad to go to therapy, right? But it's important that people also know the consequences of not doing it.
[58:53] Right?
[58:56] Which is like, if you don't go to therapy, right? You say to your dad, like, if you don't go to therapy, I'll know that you don't accept my good advice and you're not particularly sorry for what you did. So, you know, one of the ways that I'll know that you're sorry for what you did is you'll go to therapy. Say, oh, so I have to do what you want. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's true. You kind of have to do what I want. Yeah, for sure. Oh, so you're forcing me to say, no, no, no, I'm not forcing you. I'm just telling you this is what I want. This is what I want as restitution for you being really kind of vicious with me. And you don't have to provide it. But then I will consider that you're not very sorry. Like that, that will be my reaction is that, well, clearly you're not very sorry if you You won't even spend a little bit of time researching therapy and going to talk to a therapist. Even if you just go for a month or two, six or eight hours, at the end of the world, maybe you'll find it really helpful. But if your relationship with me isn't even worth looking into therapy, then clearly my relationship is not that important. You don't care that much.
[1:00:16] One one thing i would add too is i i brought up therapy but i i didn't i i wasn't that good about it i just brought it up one time uh two days ago and uh he he kind of said like well you're you're different than me um you're an alcohol i'm an alcoholic and and you're not you can do two beers and i can't and another one was uh maybe it's just your mother's side out of the family but um what yeah maybe you'll just never forgive me for this and that that kind of hurt well so
[1:00:50] The first thing i would say is that um therapists deal with addicts all the.
[1:00:55] Time i mean okay they're
[1:00:58] Trained to do that right i mean there's certainly some therapists who are specifically trained to deal with addiction, and so as long as you're not you know you just can't show up drunk to the therapy session but but they absolutely know how to deal with therapy. So the idea that I'm different because I'm not an addict, like that's just not, that's not a real objection. The second thing is, sorry, it was on your mother's side.
[1:01:25] He was saying, you know, maybe it's just that side of the family in you that you'll just never forgive me for this.
[1:01:31] Oh yeah, never forgive you, right. And then I would say, I would say to that, listen, I'm completely thrilled, happy, and eager to forgive you. I really am. I absolutely want to forgive you, and this is what I want in order to forgive you. So if I'm telling you, Dad, go to therapy, and I'll forgive you, and then you decide not to go to therapy, that's you deciding that I don't forgive you, that you're making that choice, not me. I'm telling you what I need to forgive you. Go to therapy. If you decide not to go to therapy, you can never, ever claim that I didn't forgive you. Because I'm telling you what you need to do to be forgiven. And if you choose not to do it, that's entirely on you.
[1:02:16] In the moment there, I just responded back that him saying that makes me, just makes me angry because it's like, do you not think I'm humane enough? Do you not know me long enough to be able to forgive somebody? It's like, why would you think that I'm, why would you even say something like that?
[1:02:33] You know well it's a way of saying that you're intolerant not that he won't bother to earn your forgiveness yeah so yeah it's it's it's really it's just a way of saying that you're you're the problem not him right yeah yeah.
[1:02:54] And and in terms of this this new kind of feeling of like guilt about wanting to move out. I mean, I should probably just push that out and just listen to what's real right now, which is I feel it's, I just feel the real need to move out.
[1:03:16] Right. Well, those are difficult situations because your dad is really, really, really upping the stakes. Well, you can move out, but I might drink it again, right? That's really, really upping the stakes. So why do you think your father is so keen to have you not move out?
[1:03:45] My first thought is just maybe like a selfishness. Like maybe I don't have any friends. I just work at home. Right now he does.
[1:03:58] Sorry, the I don't have any friends and I work at home, that's your dad, right?
[1:04:02] Yes.
[1:04:02] Okay, so is it just loneliness?
[1:04:06] Maybe it's just I'm really addicted to your presence and I like you being here and and me uh doing stuff with you even though you know i've i've expressed you know i've or at least i've felt before that's you know i've been i've been wanting to appease him because i'm afraid of upsetting him you know maybe out of punishment or maybe out of out of that that sympathy that i have um you know and he's he's also talked it from the other side of like Like all it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's no man's out there. You're going to spend all your money. So it's kind of been both sides of our no man's land out there. And, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's real tough and people are moving back in and stuff like that. So it's, it's been from both sides of him wanting me to, the reasons for him wanting me to stay.
[1:04:56] And how's your mom's commitment to him at the moment?
[1:05:00] Um, so when I talked with him, she was in the room, but she didn't say anything. Thing and um then i then he he left he i and uh i said do you want to add anything to that and she was like oh right now i feel the same way as you do um and that was really all she said sorry what
[1:05:20] Does that mean.
[1:05:21] Um just how i i'd express that i i i i'm angry about it right now and that i want to move out. And that's what I thought she was meaning by that.
[1:05:33] Oh, that she wants to move out too?
[1:05:35] Yeah, possibly, but just that I was angry and upset with it.
[1:05:40] Right. Do you know if your mom has tried to talk to your dad about the issues that he's provoked in you?
[1:05:49] I don't know. I know that the night that they had, the night two weeks ago when there was that verbal abuse. I think they had fought beforehand and that might have been like they had fought beforehand. I came in and said that college wasn't really working right now and I think that was the tipping point.
[1:06:08] Sorry, that what wasn't working?
[1:06:10] That college wasn't working.
[1:06:12] Oh, college wasn't working. Okay.
[1:06:13] I think that those two things piled together, her fighting with him and then me saying that was the tipping point. So I think they haven't really, I think it's just been kind of of a general anger and not really talking about it too much.
[1:06:29] Do you think that there's a risk that if, not to you, of course, but just in general, do you think that there's a risk that if you move out, your mom might follow suit?
[1:06:43] I thought about that, and possibly. My younger brother's still there, so I would be interested to see what would happen when my younger brother leaves.
[1:06:55] If he does.
[1:06:57] If he did, maybe. I think that's possible.
[1:07:03] Yeah, when there's a dysfunctional marriage, a lot of times the marital partners want the kids to stay home so that they don't sort of stare at each other and say, okay, what now?
[1:07:13] Right. Okay.
[1:07:16] So that could be another pressure point as well. How's your dad's health?
[1:07:23] I've tried to get him to do walks and stuff like that. We've got parks in our area, and he's been on probably two or three weeks of he'll lose weight, and then he just snacks a lot and eats really bad food. I'm not terribly overweight, but just the general bad back problems, pot belly, stuff like that, just not very sporadic, nothing consistent diet or exercise-wise.
[1:07:55] Right, okay. Okay. Right. Yeah. Well, look, I'm, of course, I'm really, really sorry that your father has said these things to you and that the apologies do not really appear to be, forthcoming in any particularly productive way. I'm really, really sorry about that. That's, that's really tragic. It's really, really tragic. Uh, everybody can say things that they regret, of course right but oof you know that that's rough stuff to say and to have it sit in your brain right yeah it's really tough and i really really sympathize with that uh it is not your job to fix your father it's not your job it is not your job to fix your relationship with your parents, it's just not you can't because they define the relationship it's like you know to take an extreme example. If Microsoft stock isn't doing too well, there's not much the janitor can do. If you're a CEO, yeah, sure, something you can do, or high up there, some senior product manager or something. But.
[1:09:05] The janitor doesn't really have any power. I mean, what he can do, clean faster, and it's not going to change the stock price if the company's not doing well, right? And so with regards to your parents, they define the relationship. They determine the relationship. They have the power. They have the authority. And it's one of these annoying things that I have to say that you'll understand when you become a parent. But when you become a parent, you realize just how much in charge of everything the parents are.
[1:09:33] Okay.
[1:09:34] You can't you can't fix them you can't fix them and the fact that you've gotten to become an adult and your dad's in his late 50s and so on and this is where he's at odds of change are virtually zero okay, virtually zero.
[1:09:53] That hurts to hear but
[1:09:55] Absolutely and you know I'm obviously I'm not psychic I can't tell the future, but the best behavior of the best behavior sorry the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior and if he has spent his life avoiding the obviously legitimate and horrifying pain of his childhood that's not going to change particularly people don't change after they don't change with their kids after the parenting is done and your father's parenting is mostly done, like it's mostly in the past right right and when the job is done wanting to do a better job really shows up.
[1:10:39] Yeah.
[1:10:40] I mean, because if you have the capability of doing a better job, why on earth wouldn't you do it when it was relevant and useful for you to do a better job, right?
[1:10:48] Right, yeah.
[1:10:49] You know, if you're supposed to fix someone's car and instead you set fire to it and it burns down to the ground, there's not much point three years later saying, ah, I'm going to do a better job.
[1:11:01] Yeah.
[1:11:03] So that is unlikely to occur. If he were to decide. I mean, the thing is, too, like if you say, Dad, I really want you to go to therapy, and then if he says basically, oh, so what happens if I don't go to therapy? It's like, well, you know, our relationship takes a real blow, and I'm going to find it really tough to forgive you. It's like, oh, so basically you're saying I have to go to therapy if I want to see you, and then he'd be like, fine, I'll go to therapy, and then that's just grudging and negative, and, you know, that's not really, a place to go to therapy from, if that makes sense.
[1:11:34] Yeah, I think so.
[1:11:37] So when did you first start no no I won't ask you that so as far as change goes, I mean let's put it this way your mother has known your father a lot longer than you have right, yes yeah okay so your mother has known how many years longer has your mother known your father than you have and by that I mean that you can remember not just when you were born like from the age of four or five or whatever so how many years did your, mom, know your dad before you were four years old?
[1:12:13] Over 20 years.
[1:12:17] So over 20 years before or over, so over 20 years she knew him before you were four?
[1:12:24] Yes.
[1:12:25] Okay, so she's known him for like 35 years, right? So she's known him almost twice as long as you've known him, right?
[1:12:34] Yes.
[1:12:35] And does she think he can change?
[1:12:39] I haven't asked her, but I would, and she probably won't tell me the answer, but I would say no. I would say no.
[1:12:50] Well, I personally don't think we need to theorize. I could be wrong, but I don't think we need to theorize because has your mother tried to get your father to talk to a counselor, to do any therapy, to do any self-work, to deal, you know, even the AA thing? she's not been able to get him to go to regularly, right? Yeah. So has, and your mother is like, I don't know, man, I just want to leave the guy from time to time, right?
[1:13:15] Yeah.
[1:13:16] So we leave when we despair of change, right?
[1:13:19] Mm-hmm.
[1:13:21] So your mother's known your father for like, well, 41 years, right? Mm-hmm. And she doesn't think he can change? Mm-hmm. So I would take that as gospel.
[1:13:40] Yeah, that's just...
[1:13:42] Like the woman who's known him the longest and has the most knowledge of him. Right? She doesn't think he can change.
[1:13:52] Yeah. I'm just in a stage right now where it's just... It feels unbelievable.
[1:14:01] What does? You mean this concept of whether he can change or not?
[1:14:05] And yeah, just that I just wanted, maybe I just wanted to believe that he could, and that's why I kind of wanted to appease him. But it's just, I feel and I understand now from what you've been saying that it's true, it's just you can't, it's not possible.
[1:14:27] Well we just you know generally for me if somebody has 41 years experience in something, like if if you go to a you you push your car into a an expert mechanic who's been studying this exact model of car for 41 years and he tells you you can't fix this car what are you supposed to say you're wrong i tend to go with the experts you know right you know when i had to get a tooth extracted. No. It's like, no, they point at stuff on x-rays. It seems to make some kind of sense to me, so okay, bye-bye tooth, right? I tend to defer to the experts, if that makes sense. So, your mother is an expert on your father. Right.
[1:15:19] Yeah.
[1:15:20] And she doesn't think he can change. At least, I don't think, as far as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think she's ever put a particular plan or process in expecting him to change. She's never said, kids, I know your father's been a bit deficient in X, Y, or Z way, but we've got a plan. He's going to do this. He's going to do that. He's going to talk to the priest.
[1:15:39] He's going to get some therapy. He's going to whatever, right? Has she ever put forward a plan by which your father can change?
[1:15:45] No, she hasn't.
[1:15:47] All right. Have you talked to your mother about your father's verbal aggression that you were talking to about with me?
[1:15:59] No. I just kind of expressed that I didn't like that. Just the drunkenness and just what had happened. And like I said before, she just kind of said, well, I feel the same way. And that's really been it. but I haven't done too much with her.
[1:16:21] Okay. So she knows that, for how long has she known that your father drinks to excess?
[1:16:28] She's told me that he's known that he's been a partier and been that type of drinking to excess person ever since they were late teens, early 20s.
[1:16:41] Okay, so 40 years. He's been an alcoholic or a semi-alcoholic, right?
[1:16:50] Yes that's just
[1:16:51] It's just incredible.
[1:16:52] When you put it that way
[1:16:54] Okay and has she ever been successful in getting him into rehab or treatment no okay so she doesn't believe he can change that way how much brain do you think is left after 20 years after 40 years of deliberate and repetitive poisoning.
[1:17:15] I'm sorry to laugh. I don't know.
[1:17:20] I mean, alcohol is poison, right?
[1:17:24] Yeah.
[1:17:26] It's bad for your brain. It's bad for your body. It's bad for your entire system. So after 40 years, and by the by, he started poisoning himself before his brain had even reached full maturity. It's different if you drink in your teens than if you drink in your your late 20s, because at least you've got brain maturity.
[1:17:46] Yes.
[1:17:47] Right. Drinking in your teens is like a mother smoking when she's pregnant with you. Because you're affecting a brain still, like, let's say he started drinking in his mid-teens. Well, that's still 10 years away from brain maturity and how much damage is done. Like, alcohol does damage to people's brains. So how much executive function is left? How much of the neofrontal cortex is left? How much of, in a sense, free will or observing ego is left? I don't know. Of course, I'm no expert on this kind of stuff. But I know that alcohol can have some seriously bad effects on people's brain and judgment.
[1:18:27] Yeah, and he told me two days ago that his mother gave him alcohol when he was 13 or 14. So it's probably been ever since then.
[1:18:36] Wow. Wow, okay. So it could be close to half a century, like 45 years, right?
[1:18:46] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[1:18:48] So, see, when you deal with an addict, in my experience and obviously opinion, right? I'm not saying this is science. But in my experience and opinion, when you're dealing with an addict, you're not dealing with the person. You're just dealing with the addiction. And your father has dealt with his, you know, truly horrifying childhood demons. Your father has dealt with those by drowning them in alcohol. Which means that he has not learned how to process and handle negative feelings which means that he just acts out and lashes out when negative feelings arise so if he feels negative about you moving out he just bullies and escalates and threatens you with increased alcoholism, yeah because he hasn't learned how to negotiate with himself but simply drown his sorrows at the bottom of a bottle and therefore he's not learned how to negotiate with you or his wife or your a brother.
[1:19:40] And therefore, all he has without negotiation, all you have is submission or escalation. Now, as the father, he ain't going to submit, so all he can do is escalate. That's the only route. Wow.
[1:19:58] Well, I'm just processing all that, and that's, uh.
[1:20:04] And that's why addicts are known as emotional terrorists, because addiction is a refusal to negotiate with yourself, right? There's sad parts of your dad that want to get heard and listened to and dealt with, but he won't negotiate with himself. He just drugs himself, in a sense. And because he won't negotiate with himself, he hasn't learned how to handle negative emotions, and therefore whoever makes him feel bad is just an enemy who needs to be attacked until they change. It's almost like a self-defense principle.
[1:20:35] That emotional terrorist really resonates with me. And why is that,
[1:20:39] Do you think? Not disagreeing with you, of course, I just want to make sure I understand.
[1:20:45] Just because that's how it's felt and how he's acted towards me kind of, maybe i i think if you've been around someone 20 years and you know that you probably know that they sympathize with you and they want to help you and maybe they sympathize with you too much and want to appease everything about you maybe you knew that about me and made me do certain things that i didn't approve of or you know made me really want to go to college even though i wasn't wasn't right for me it's just it's just like kind of holding me hostage over me feeling bad for him, if that makes any sense.
[1:21:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And how do you get your way when you can't negotiate?
[1:21:25] Right.
[1:21:25] Yeah, I mean, all you can do is either give up your desires or bully.
[1:21:32] Yeah. And, I mean, admittedly, some of the things that he said, that you have no friends or there's no girlfriends, I mean, we moved away after high school, And I had plenty of friends there, but it's just been, I haven't done as much initiative as I have to get friends or a girlfriend here and kind of had a bad experience in high school that's kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth, admittedly, with girls. But, I mean.
[1:22:00] Well, my God, man, you can't get a girlfriend until you resolve things with your dad and your mom. Yeah. I mean, how could you? You get some quality woman and you bring her home to dad and mom?
[1:22:15] That just hit me really hard.
[1:22:17] Holy crap.
[1:22:19] Yeah.
[1:22:21] Hey, here's my verbal abuser and the indifferent one. Want to join the family? Ugh. Ah!
[1:22:29] Yeah.
[1:22:31] Thank you, but no. Lovely guy. I love the fact that you're into Tolstoy, but I'm not having this as my mother and father-in-law for the next 30 years.
[1:22:44] Yeah.
[1:22:46] Wow. So that's why. And it's just the same thing is true with friendships too.
[1:22:52] Yes.
[1:22:53] Because if a woman who loves you, right. And even friends who really genuinely care about you, but a woman who loves you, if you report that your father said these absolutely appalling, horrible things to you, and has never really apologized, she's going to hate your dad. You can't love someone and love someone who abuses them. So she's going to hate your dad. She's going to be like, I don't want to have anything to do with this a-hole. Because he's really inflicting all of this horrible stuff on you. How on earth could I like him? Don't ask me to. Don't even expect me to. I'll never break in bread with this guy until he apologizes. I mean, that's what someone who loves you would do, right?
[1:23:37] Yes, yeah.
[1:23:39] So how can you find someone who loves you if you're still exposed to this level of toxicity?
[1:23:48] Yeah, it's not, you can't.
[1:23:51] Can't? So yeah, so that is, he's blaming you for a situation that he has created. Which is, again, sort of fundamental projection stuff.
[1:24:04] Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. So is it just a matter of, of, of the sit down, you know, the talk and, you know, just if they can't, I mean, now it's just, it's just, it's such a strong thing in my mind. It's like, I have to, I mean, you don't have to, you don't have to give me any answer.
[1:24:30] No, I'm always a big fan of honesty in relationships. So, you know, if you're unsatisfied with your dad, you say, I'm unsatisfied. If you're hurt, you say, I'm hurt. If you say, I feel hostility towards you, say, I feel hostility towards you. I mean, that's just honest, right?
[1:24:47] Yes.
[1:24:48] And the important thing to me in my relationship with my family, maybe this is helpful for you, but the important thing for me is like, I don't even know if these people genuinely care about me. In other words, how much do they like me when I disagree with them? Like, do they like me or do they just like the fact that I kind of go along with whatever nonsense is going on?
[1:25:14] Yeah.
[1:25:15] So if, you know, if someone I genuinely care about says, listen, you did this mean thing and here's what I need for restitution. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. I did do this mean thing. I will absolutely submit to that restitution for my own conscience as well as for the sake of the relationship, right? It wouldn't be that complicated. You're not asking for your dad to go and join the Foreign Legion and fight in the Middle East for 10 years. You're just like, go talk to a therapist, you lunatic, right? Just go talk to a therapist. You're severely traumatized as a child, and you've never dealt with it. You've just drowned it in alcohol. So you have to go and deal with this trauma, right? I mean, it's literally like somebody half bleeding to death and you say, you really ought to get to a hospital. And they're like, no, to heck with you. It's like, oh, but you are in fact bleeding out, right? So your dad had a terrible childhood. He's not dealt with it. He needs to talk to a counselor. He needs to talk to a therapist. That's not brain surgery. now he's going to go with the AA stuff because the AA stuff probably won't get him to actually deal with the childhood stuff because it's not therapy right.
[1:26:23] It's managing symptoms to some degree rather than getting to root causes and you know some therapists do that too so this is no dig at AA I don't know that they have the most spectacular track record but I'm sure it's better than nothing, but yeah it's just like look you're You're pushing 60. You've never dealt with a severely traumatized childhood, and you need to go talk to someone. Now, if your dad is like, no, I'm not going to go and talk to someone, okay, well, then you can make your decision from there.
[1:26:54] But in my experience, it's worth giving it a shot, assuming it's physically safe for you to do so, and it sounds like it is, but it's worth giving it a shot. Because if he's like, you know, to heck with you, I'm going to cling to my alcohol rather than deal with my childhood trauma which is giving himself permission to continue to be horribly harsh with you then you can make a decision based on that but then he just doesn't really care about you that much because if it's more important for him to cling to alcohol than to get therapy, despite the fact that it's really harming his relationship with you then it's a sad but bitter truth that he prefers alcohol to you.
[1:27:29] Yeah yeah that would be the next the next step just in terms of kind of almost like a nail in the coffin of determining where where his interests actually are
[1:27:44] Right right does he care about you enough and again you're what you're asking is perfectly reasonable right what you're you're not saying you know i need you to chop off your right arm and send it in a pickle jar to be right you're You're asking for him to get help with his anger and to get help with his addiction and to get help with his legitimately terrible childhood. That's completely reasonable. It's a completely reasonable request. And if you make reasonable requests and people blow up at you, it's like, okay, well, then I can't be reasonable around you. You don't listen and you'd rather have your temper than my company. I think it's a sad choice, but, you know, that's what people choose. That's what people choose.
[1:28:23] I really needed to hear that that was a reasonable choice because I think two days ago I was a little afraid of continuing and pushing the buttons more of like you need to actually go to therapy. I just kind of half-assed it.
[1:28:37] No, listen, it's a very kind thing that you're doing because most people just yell back or just completely distance themselves. And the fact that you would circle back and say, I'm going to try and get you to do something that's of massive benefit to you and me and might help save your marriage and will certainly help my younger brother and will help me and will help mom and will help you and is pretty inexpensive and has been shown to have massive benefits. I interviewed a guy like 15 years ago who was talking about how therapy provides, more benefit to people than like a massive raise in pay, like more happiness and all of that. And so I sort of made the case pretty clearly and people get a lot out of therapy. And so saying to your dad, listen, you really spoke horribly to me, like really appallingly to me. And for the sake of our relationship, this can't happen again. And the best, I'm not going to yell back at you or shame you or humiliate you. I'm going to say you had a terrible childhood. You've not dealt with it. Go deal with it. You know, be a grownup and just go deal with your childhood and find a way.
[1:29:48] To come to some peace with that so you don't end up being so aggressive and volatile with me. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say to somebody.
[1:29:58] It's like if somebody has a rage issue and you say, please go to anger management, that's perfectly reasonable. In fact, it's about the nicest and kindest thing you can possibly do. And if he won't do something that reasonable, then he'll do it because he wouldn't listen to you because he'd say, I don't have a problem. It's like, no, you do. That you were the product of rape and you were sexually assaulted and there was other terrible stuff going on, you legitimately need some therapy. You really do. This is a lot to deal with. I can't deal with it. I'm not a therapist. I mean, that's like asking me to take out your appendix with a spork. It's not going to happen, right? So you need to go and talk to a professional. Well, I'm going to do the AA thing. It's like, no, but AA will help you deal with the symptoms, which is alcoholism, but a therapist will help you deal with the cause, which is childhood trauma. And so, trust me, you need to go to therapy. Like, just trust me. Just do it. Just do it.
[1:30:51] Just do it. Wax on, wax off, man. Just trust me and do it. Don't argue. Don't, like, just, I've, you've done some therapy. You've read a lot about it. You know a lot about it. You know its benefits. You know how helpful it is. Just basically shut up, trust me, and do it. Don't argue. Don't argue. You're out of your depth. You've been trying to manage this for 35 or 40 years. with drinking and this is where you are. So you've got to recognize you haven't solved it. I'm taking therapy. I know what's going on. Go talk to a therapist. Stop drinking. Go talk to a therapist. You can combine therapy with AA, I guess. But, you know, just don't argue. Just go do it. And that's just a trust thing, right?
[1:31:33] Yeah. And, and would, would, you know, any further shyness like I did two days ago and saying that, would that, that almost be harm to him, right? Not to bring it up and say something, right? Right.
[1:31:46] Well, I think if the relationship is going to work, it's going to work because of honesty and the relationship, if it's not going to work, that will be revealed through honesty other than the immediate emotional discomfort, which is considerable and which I sympathize with. Honesty can never do anything but benefit a relationship. If it strengthens the relationship, fantastic. If it shows that there is no real relationship, you know, not good, but good to know.
[1:32:16] Well, you'd be freed of that, right?
[1:32:20] Well, yeah. And then you can go find a good woman without having to try and integrate her into this toxic environment, right? Which she's not going to do. She's just like, you're a nice guy, but I'm not getting involved in that.
[1:32:31] Yeah.
[1:32:32] I mean, if my wife had been my mother, I wouldn't be married. So, sorry, mom. Sorry, mom. I'm afraid you're a little expendable in that situation. I chose my wife. I didn't choose my mom.
[1:32:42] Wow. Yeah. How much blame can you put on yourself for not, I mean, I guess you said before, in terms of not getting a, or finding a woman yet. I mean, it's, it really is, you just have to address the father first, right? I mean, that's, that's where everything lies.
[1:33:03] Yes. Yeah. You can't have someone in your life who's a good woman who loves you and then expose closer to how your parents treat you and then her like that's just that's a round peg in a square hole yeah so if you deal with that then you're free to find people of quality because then they won't have to see you continually getting mistreated.
[1:33:29] I just feel that I want to blame myself first for those things of,
[1:33:35] You know, bro, you're 21 years old. God's sake, cut some slack. I was 10 years older than you and I was still puzzling this stuff out and I'm not the dumbest kid on the block. Holy crap, man. Cut yourself some slack.
[1:33:49] Okay.
[1:33:50] You're taking on an enormous amount at a very young age and that's heroic. It's absolutely heroic. I would absolutely stand between you and self-attack in these areas. You are the hero that your family needs. Whether they rise to your level of heroism and honesty is up to them. But you're definitely the hero that your gene pool and your lineage needs because you're going to make things infinitely better for your kids than your parents did for you. And that's as heroic a thing as can be conceived of. Get it? Conceived, baby? Anyway, it's a very subtle joke.
[1:34:26] Wow. Um, that's, that's, that's a lot. And, uh, I think what will definitely help me in, in, in processing everything that's been going on and.
[1:34:42] And you're still in therapy, is that right?
[1:34:45] I'm going to meet, I was regular and then I kind of fell out of it as well. And then I'm going to meet with somebody.
[1:34:52] I think, yeah, I think certainly with the process of going through this kind of family conversation, it can be well worthwhile to be with a, to be talking with a therapist during this process.
[1:35:07] Okay. Yeah.
[1:35:09] And not one of these, forgive your family, no matter what. People in my humble opinion but somebody who actually recognizes the value of what you're doing okay yeah might be i might be a dude might have to be a dude maybe maybe i don't know.
[1:35:26] Is that more common with uh
[1:35:28] I i i think the forgiveness stuff is a little bit more on the female side like that endless forgiveness stuff yeah um you know because it's gone from earned forgiveness when men were more in charge of religion to world forgiveness now that it's a female centric more. So maybe it'd be slightly better to get a man. I mean, again, you judge the individual therapist, but if I had a choice, you know, 51, 49, it might be better to work with a man.
[1:35:55] Okay. I kind of, that's what turned me off from the going to church and the religion stuff was kind of that general feminine femininity that you're talking about too.
[1:36:05] Oh yeah.
[1:36:06] Oh, that's a, Would that be something to just...
[1:36:11] Oh, it's like your father drowned his sorrows in drink, and women drown God in estrogen sometimes. It's just a little tough sometimes.
[1:36:18] Yeah. I think this is a start, and I really, really appreciate it.
[1:36:25] You are very welcome, and I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going, and I'd give you a big hug if I could, brother.
[1:36:30] Stef, thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day.
[1:36:32] You're welcome. Take care.
[1:36:33] Bye-bye.
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