In a profound and engaging dialogue, philosopher Stefan Molyneux speaks with a couple, Bob and Jane, who are facing a critical decision about their future together. The couple has been together for two and a half years, but a fundamental divergence looms over their relationship: while Bob desires to have children, Jane is more ambivalent, expressing love for Bob but uncertainty about motherhood. As they navigate through their complex feelings on this matter, both call on their backgrounds, beliefs, and shared experiences to explore the core of their relationship's challenges.
Bob opens the conversation by recounting how he and Jane were initially open about their family goals, but with time, they are confronted with the reality that Jane is not as enthusiastic about having kids as he is. They’ve been seeking help through couples therapy, where they have unveiled deeper issues, including Jane's emotional struggle tied to her family history and Bob’s frustrations over perceived conditional love based on shared desires for children. During therapy, Bob is confronted with the notion that his yearning for parenthood might overshadow genuine love for Jane, igniting a struggle within him to reconcile his desires without feeling guilty for wanting what he feels is fundamental to his being; raising a family.
As the dialogue progresses, Stefan directs his inquiries toward Jane, encouraging her to provide context about her hesitations. Jane articulates her love for Bob while simultaneously grappling with the weight of her potential decision not only to become a mother but also facing her family's tumultuous history. Through revealing her family's battle with an autoimmune disorder, she shares the emotional scars that might contribute to her decision-making process. Both Bob and Jane come to discussions that resonate deeply with their family dynamics growing up, where assertiveness and emotional expression often implied conflict—something both seem to shy away from, illuminating a cycle of avoidance.
Stefan adeptly steers the conversation towards the impact of their upbringing on their current relationship dynamic. He observes that Bob, who felt most of his childhood decisions were made by his parents, particularly by a dominating mother, finds it challenging to assert himself now in the face of serious relationship decisions like starting a family. Jane, on the other hand, is exploring the tension of wanting to accommodate Bob’s desires while feeling fearful of the implications of potential motherhood—a role that could threaten her sense of peace stemming from her past experiences.
The couple’s discussion brings to light the paradox of love versus obligation: particularly questioning whether choosing to love means that one must also sacrifice their desires for children should they not align with their partner’s. Stefan challenges the couple by underscoring the necessity and ethics of love and desire, asserting that attempting to force conformity around love or having children leads to unhealthy relationships. The conversation also critically examines the notions of sacrifice in love—whether true love demands abandoning one's dreams—especially in light of Jane’s fears grounded in her family's history.
As the discussion unfolds, Stefan encourages both Bob and Jane to unpack their fears and faces the couple with a stark reality: the importance of honesty within their emotional landscape as they navigate their personal desires and collective future. This session reveals a critical insight that the future of their relationship hinges on the courage to confront their fears openly and seek the truth in their situation. If they allow the impasse on the issue of children to persist, they jeopardize the very relationship they cherish.
Stefan's conclusion underscores the necessity of decisive actions stemming from honest dialogue. He promotes the significance of obtaining clearer paths through genetic testing or family discussions, and stresses that both Bob and Jane must take responsibility for their desires and choices moving forward. Ultimately, the conversation is a profound exploration of love, the potential for growth, and the necessity of confronting sometimes uncomfortable truths—all in pursuit of mutual happiness and understanding.
0:07 - The Dilemma of Parenthood
1:18 - The Weight of True Love
3:38 - Perspectives on Desire
8:20 - Unpacking Relationship Dynamics
18:25 - The Impact of Health
27:20 - Understanding Genetic Concerns
31:56 - The Role of Family
40:58 - Family Expectations and Communication
47:29 - The Complexity of Decisions
1:05:47 - Regret and Future Considerations
1:12:02 - Genetic Testing Dilemmas
1:15:59 - Confronting Difficult Decisions
1:18:35 - The Weight of Childhood Experiences
1:35:17 - Navigating Assertiveness in Relationships
1:38:24 - Discussing Fears of Parenthood
1:47:23 - The Challenge of Making Decisions
2:04:40 - The Mechanics of Relationship Conflict
2:13:49 - Moving Forward Together
[0:00] I would like to ask for your perspective on a matter we currently have between me and my girlfriend of two and a half years.
[0:08] So some context from the beginning, we were open about family. I have always wanted to have children, while she didn't share the same desire, though she wasn't against them either. Now we are at the point where we have to decide how to proceed. I recognize you would argue that this should be done at the start and I agree. At the time, I assumed she might eventually come to want to have children as well. Anyway, we have been attending couples therapy for the last four months. First, to see whether we could resolve the question of not having or having children. Naturally, the sessions let us talk about our backgrounds, families, traumas, etc., which was all hugely helpful to both of us.
[1:08] Yesterday, not yesterday, but it's like three weeks ago, at the therapy, it was the hardest session for me.
[1:18] I'm still going over it in my mind, but essentially it was said at the session that I did not truly choose my girlfriend for who she is, but rather because of my wish to have children.
[1:35] What was then said was that for a husband, a wife should be before everything else, and children should be a by-product of that love. Then she said, if a man would not want to stay with his woman even without children, he does not truly love her. And then some other points, but basically the point was that if I want to have children and I don't put my girlfriend And before this wish, I do not, this is not true love.
[2:18] I'm struggling to understand this perspective, since it differs so much from what I think. Why is it that if I want to have children, I first have to forfeit this dream of having children in order for my girlfriend to feel like I have chosen her for herself, and not just because I want to have children? I would like to spend my life with my girlfriend, I value many of her good qualities that she has and I want to have a family with her. At the same time, I don't love her so overwhelmingly that I would be content giving up the dream of raising my family or our family. Why is this thinking considered love? And how does this lead to unhealthy relationships? Is it really not ethical love if a man is considering leaving his girlfriend if she does not want to have children? This is the essence of what I wrote. I hope it was understandable for you.
[3:38] Yeah it makes uh it makes good sense to me and if i'd like to hear from your girlfriend how long have you guys been together two.
[3:49] And a half years.
[3:50] Two and a half years okay well very nice to meet you and i'm sure we could do some useful stuff so if you would like to tell me your perspective do you guys want to give me like i don't know i hate to say sort of bob and jane because that's very, very angler.
[4:05] Yeah, sure.
[4:05] I forget, it's your Bob and Jane. Okay. All right. So Jane, Jane, if not your real name, right, but Jane, if you could tell me a little bit about what you think.
[4:14] Um, okay, yeah, so this is also a struggle for me because, um, well, I do love, um, Bob and, uh, I think we have a good relationship. Um, but somehow I, I'm not sure if I want to pursue this, um, this path of heavy children, even though I like constantly work with them or are in touch with them. So I'm like worried if we could proceed our relationship if like not having children or like if there is a desire and it won't happen for a few years. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. So I am not really sure of what my future will be like. And Bob really has a desire. like he knows what he wants, for me it's painful when he says like, I would like to be with you but on the other hand I still want to have children so I don't know what I love more what I would want more right.
[5:33] Got it alright and how old are you guys? Just roughly, just the 30s or mid-30s?
[5:43] Yeah, 30s.
[5:45] 30s, okay, got it, got it.
[5:47] Early ones, yeah.
[5:48] All right. So, I mean, you've got to make the decision soon, right?
[5:51] Yeah. Yeah.
[5:52] Okay. And when did you guys first talk about having kids versus not having kids?
[6:01] Do you want to go? I don't know. So, it was basically pretty early in the relationship. Yeah, let's say in the first few dates.
[6:13] Oh, so you did talk about it early. Okay, got it.
[6:17] Yeah, I just started.
[6:18] All right, and what was the conversation then?
[6:23] It was pretty much the same as we are now. I said that I want to have a family. She said she doesn't have the wish to have them, but she's not against them either.
[6:39] Okay, so why did you... I mean, I'm sure you guys have a great relationship, but I'm just curious. If you have a mismatch on something as important as having children, why would you continue? I guess it's because you've really liked each other, right?
[6:57] Yeah, this is one point of view. And the other was like, I said that maybe it will become a desire for me. I will see, but I can't promise you anything yet. And he was like, yes, I want to pursue, but still so that you know that I still have desire. So, we said, okay, let's try, let's do it, and then see where the path takes us.
[7:28] Well, it's an interesting dilemma. And, of course, you're not the only couples to deal with this, so I sympathize with that. But let me ask you something. It may sound like an odd question. Let me ask you. So, I assume that you guys have a monogamous relationship. You don't sleep with people outside the marriage. Or, sorry, outside of the relationship. So let's say that bob said uh i want to have an open relationship like ew but anyway like said he said i want to have an open relationship we sleep with other people would that be a deal breaker in the relationship this is for you right uh jane uh would you say no i'm not i'm not going to be in a relationship with someone who wants an open relationship.
[8:18] Yeah, yeah, I would say that.
[8:20] Okay. Now, If, so Bob, if you said, I want an open relationship and Jane said, well, you know, no, I don't particularly want it, but I'm open to it. We'll think about it. We'll see over time or whatever it is. That would be, that would be strange, right? That would be odd. And it would be having someone in a relationship who wanted something fundamentally different. if you want an open relationship and she wants to be monogamous, then that would be a difference of values, right?
[8:57] Yeah, I agree.
[8:59] So I don't personally, I don't agree. I'm a moral philosopher fundamentally, so I don't agree with a therapist who says to you, Bob, well, if you really loved jane then you would do what she wants and give up your desire for children right yeah and the reason for that is that if we reverse that and we say to jane well if you really loved bob you would decide to have children because that's what he wants and and so it doesn't work it cancels out right because if you guys have conflicting desires saying to the man well well, you just have to give up your desires. You have to change your mind. Otherwise, you don't love Jane. You could equally say to Jane, well, you have to give up your desire to not have children. Otherwise, you don't love Bob. I think that's not rational. I know that that's not rational. Does that make sense?
[9:56] It does, it does, yeah.
[10:00] So, Jane, my friend, my new friend, tell me a little bit about your history your childhood and and i'm i'll be honest i'll be straight up front because i don't want to be manipulative at all uh the the default position is to have children that's the switch that human beings are set to by default because if we weren't set to that position none of us would be here right your parents decided to have children their parents decided to have children all the way back four billion years or however you calculate it and so the default position is to have children and that doesn't mean that it's wrong or bad to not want to have children but it's it's not the default position i won't say normal because that's got a whole bunch of implications which i don't agree with but the do you agree that the default position for life has to be to create life yeah and again this is not saying there's anything bad or wrong or anything like that but i'm just curious i mean maybe you were born with a different switch or maybe things happened that made you less want to have children but yeah if you can tell me a little bit about your upbringing and your childhood i think that would be helpful.
[11:17] Yeah, so I was raised in a family with, also I have brothers, so I was living in a city, in a quiet area. Well, during the growing up, I had a lot of activities. I did some music activities, some other church activities. However, we all, children, we struggled with a disease and that's why my younger brother and me were quite a lot in hospital.
[11:59] However, now we are healthier and this thing changed. But still, like two years ago or like 10 years ago when I was in the hospital, I had like so strong problems that I said like I couldn't give to anybody this kind of disease. And it's a possibility that also my children have it because I also inherited it. And I said, no, no, I like never, I don't want to give that, um, like to, to children. However, um, while growing up in a family, I had, um, or still have some problems with my mother because we couldn't get along quite well.
[12:55] Uh, so, uh, yeah, however, now we have good relationship with brothers and father. So this is what I really like. But I was not sure if I liked how they were living their marriage. And this is also when I said, like, no, I wouldn't like to live like that. So maybe it's a combination of both, even the GIF autoimmune disease and maybe see how family looks like in a traditional way. So I'm not sure if now I'm afraid of something or this is just something that is my new reality or truth for me. Wow.
[13:49] I'm picking my jaw off the floor. Okay, sorry. And first of all, I just wanted to say, I mean, autoimmune stuff is really tough. I mean, of course, all illnesses are tough by definition, but autoimmune stuff is really tough. And I'm really sorry. How long were you ill for as a child?
[14:07] I mean, I have this since I was born and you have a period of time that is really bad and then it gets really a lot better and then you can't predict when you will get it. But still, because of this experience when I was in the hospital, then when I was deciding what to study, I studied rehabilitation and now I'm working with kids and things like that. So, from my experience, I saw what I would need when I was a child in hospital. So now I'm trying to do this as a career.
[15:02] Yeah, that's very nice. Now, Bob, why do you think my jaw is on the floor? Why do you think I'm surprised by what Jane is saying?
[15:21] If I had to guess, it would be that why did I proceed with the person who had such experience?
[15:31] No.
[15:32] No?
[15:33] No.
[15:33] Okay.
[15:34] Well, it's because everything that you said at the beginning of our conversation was like, well, you know, she just doesn't want to have kids. What did you not mention?
[15:48] Yeah all this but this that was supposed to be an intro i didn't want to give you the whole love story this intro.
[15:56] No come on let's be let's be fair here and and i think this is interesting i'm obviously not offended or anything but it's uh you know if if someone calls me up and says you know well my kid just doesn't want to play basketball i don't i mean it's weird i mean I played basketball. His mother plays basketball. His brothers play basketball. I don't know why he doesn't want to play basketball. And then we have a lengthy conversation about it. And at the end, he says, but he's only five foot two. I mean, Jane has, your girlfriend has significant genetic concerns about passing on an autoimmune ailment that is very serious to her children, right? Don't you think that's sort of important when you're talking about why she doesn't want to have children?
[16:52] I think it is important, yeah. But I was assuming we would come to this topic anyway in the conversation.
[17:01] Well, Jane, were you surprised that this wasn't mentioned in whether you want to have children or not? Because I'm saying, well, the default position is to have children. And why don't you have that? And it's like, so, because that's the first question is why don't you want to have children? And if it's just like, well, I prefer getting drunk every night, which of course you don't, but if you did, that would be one issue. Or if you said, well, I want to travel around the world and learn how to play the mandolin or whatever. It's like, okay, well, those are competing interests. But if it's a medical reason, that's a whole different thing, isn't it?
[17:34] Well, for sure it is. but like I had like huge problems two years ago and even a year ago and Bob was always like he was helping me getting some medicines if I need it or yeah so he and when I mentioned like if we would have children you know that there is a big possibility that they will have it as well, And he was just like, I accept you. I know that there is a possibility. So, yeah, I'm willing to still have children. So, I think it's a big thing for us, but still not big enough not to have children.
[18:21] Well, I mean, let me take your side here, Jane, for a moment.
[18:26] Well, I guess this is a question for both of you. So, if you have children and the children end up with this autoimmune disorder, who do you think would be taking care of the children the most?
[18:44] The most. I mean, both would do that.
[18:47] The most.
[18:48] But I guess, sorry to interrupt, but I guess I would be this person because I know what, helped me and how to ask doctors for advice and things like that. So yeah, probably it would be me. And then I'm thinking, if I will have problems of this disease, then how can I take care of somebody who also has? Has a disease like this at the same time, you know?
[19:22] Well, I mean, generally, if you have children, somebody stays home with the kids and somebody earns the income, right?
[19:32] Not really. I mean, both can earn income.
[19:37] Well, not, I mean, the ideal, from a medical standpoint or a health standpoint, the ideal is breastfeeding for 18 months.
[19:47] Yeah.
[19:49] And it's not just the milk, it's the whole skin-on-skin contact, the eye contact, it builds empathy for the children and all that kind of stuff. So, if you're going to have two kids spaced one year apart, that's, you know, months plus 18 months, three years plus another year where, you know, you're not exactly going to jump into a big career if you're going to have another kid soon. So, that's at least four years that one, I mean, the mother, the mother has to stay mostly with the babies.
[20:21] And the father usually is the one earning the income. I think that's the standard setup or that's the ideal setup because I personally don't see what the point is of having children and then handing them over to strangers. That doesn't seem to make any sense. That's like getting married and then moving someplace else without your partner. It doesn't really make sense. So, in general, if you were to have children and the children were to have these ailments or illnesses, then you, as the mother, would be staying home for the most part and taking care of them. And your husband, Bob, would be working and you would have the bulk of the child care. I mean, you'd have the bulk of the childcare anyway, but if your children had this genetic autoimmune disorder.
[21:14] Then you would be staying home for the first couple of years, and because your children would be unwell, you would continue to have to, I assume, stay home and take care of them and bring them to the hospital and talk to the doctors and advocate for them and deal with the issues that came from the ailment. So I would guess, I would guess that at least 75%, probably 80% of the childcare would fall on Jane, certainly when the kids are, when they're babies, but if they were ill, it would be mostly Jane who would be taking care of the children. And Bob, this is not because you don't love the children, but somebody has to make some money usually, right yeah so if you say i don't mind sorry i don't mean to laugh but if you say to your wife bob well i don't mind if the children are ill it's like well she's doing 80 of the work, i mean if she's doing most of the work then doesn't she get most of the say.
[22:22] Yeah, of course. I mean, we both have us saying this.
[22:26] No, but she gets more, in a way.
[22:29] Yeah, yeah.
[22:30] Right? I mean, because she would be doing the bulk of the work, and if the children were ill, that would be her life. I mean, Jane, how long did it take for you to, I won't say get cured, because I don't really know how that functions in that, but how old were you as a child when you began to have a more normal childhood?
[22:53] Oh, wow. It was probably high school.
[22:56] So that's 15 years, right? 14 years.
[23:00] Yeah.
[23:01] Right. And how much time and effort did your mother have to put into taking care of you and your brother?
[23:10] Well, a lot. Really a lot.
[23:14] I mean, that's a job.
[23:15] Right?
[23:15] It's like a full-time job almost.
[23:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[23:19] And it's also something you can't plan for because, as you say, or I think as you said, the ailment comes and goes. It's worse than it's better and it's very hard to predict. Is that right?
[23:33] Hmm. Yeah, this is true.
[23:35] Yeah. So, your mother couldn't even plan and say, well, the kids will be better for the next six months so I can have a hobby. It's random, right?
[23:43] Yeah, no.
[23:43] So her life became very stressful and unpredictable for, you know, I mean, how far apart are you and your brother in age?
[23:55] With the youngest one, we are one year and a half.
[24:00] Okay. Yeah, so at least a decade and a half. And she doesn't know that it's only a decade and a half because it's impossible to know at the beginning if and when it's going to get better. So your mother for like a decade and a half, had a full-time job keeping her children alive yeah is that a fair way i don't want to be unfair but isn't that the now i don't know about you guys obviously there are some people who were like well i don't care it's fine i wouldn't want that job and i would want that job now Now, have you talked to geneticists about how likely it is that this could be passed along?
[24:46] Well, yeah, it's very likely.
[24:52] So, Bob, help me understand your perspective here. I'm having trouble with it. I mean, it's very likely that your children will have a crippling genetic disease that is going to be incredibly stressful, time-consuming, emotionally brutal. You know your kid goes into hospital it's horrible you know sleepless nights worry expense stress, um help me understand your perspective on this i'm not saying there's anything wrong with it i'm just having trouble i mean i don't know that i've had it's been a while since i've had a call where i go this far from the beginning to you know 20 minutes in uh but yeah tell me understand your perspective about this, how this is like no problem.
[25:39] Yeah, so that's really not a problem from my side, but maybe I'm a bit naive in my way of thinking that we will get through and I think we would succeed. I don't know much about this illness apart from what I see in Jane. But I also see that...
[26:08] Sorry, did you say you don't know much about this illness?
[26:12] I mean, I know what it is about.
[26:14] No, no, I'm not criticizing you. I just want to make sure I understood what you said. You said you don't know much about this illness.
[26:22] Yeah, kind of, yeah.
[26:23] Two and a half years! Two and a half years! That's 30 months. You've had to research this. How could you not know the most important concern of your partner? Help me understand that.
[26:42] I know. Yeah, I'm trying. So I know what it is. I know how it works and it affects that there is no cure. Yeah. Like, you don't read articles, like medical articles, but… Follow, yeah, the news on this, and it's just something, I mean, it's just, it is something that we deal with every day.
[27:15] I'm sorry, you said it is something you deal with every day?
[27:19] Yeah. Yeah.
[27:20] Okay. So, this is the major issue that affects your wife's health, and you don't know much about it?
[27:28] So what do you think I should know more about it?
[27:35] Well, you yourself said, I don't know much about it, so you must have a standard of knowing a lot about it that you don't fulfill, right? Just based on what you said, right? Let's ask your partner. What does he, I mean, in terms of 100% knowing a lot about it, what percentage is Bob at?
[27:59] I mean, it's not like that he reads medical articles about that, but like when I had some appointments or to doctors, he said that he can come with me if I want. And he was reading about medicine that could help. He read some articles also about that. So I think that he did his kind of research. But now that I became a bit better, it's like he doesn't read about it so much. But before when I was like worse he was like more into it.
[28:51] Well so Bob I mean, you have you have access to the best source of knowledge about dealing with this illness and you know and that's not that's not Jane who is that, Google Google? I'm sorry? No, no, not Google, good lord. Have you talked to Jane's parents about what it's like to deal with and manage this illness in children?
[29:36] It was a thing that we talked about, but not in the sense that I wanted to specifically talk about this. Also a lot of this stuff was shared by Jane, I mean she told me a lot about how her upbringing was and yeah, I wanted to know that.
[30:05] So, if you want to have children with somebody where there's a high likelihood of getting this ailment, I think the first place that you would do is you'd sit down with Jane's parents and say, okay, tell me everything about this. What was it like? What happened? What was the ebb and flow? How much did it cost? And how much sleep did you lose? And I mean, when you have, I mean, I don't have anything, of course, like you have. But every parent has had a sick child, and when your child is sick, that's your whole life. That's all you do. You sit up with the child.
[30:52] You put cold compresses on the child's forehead. You take the child to the doctor. You pray, if you're religious, you're worried. I mean, it's your whole life. There's not much else that's going on in your mind when your child is ill, particularly if your child is ill in a dangerous way in this kind of scenario. So, I suppose from Jane's perspective, I don't want to speak for you, Jane, but I suppose from Jane's perspective, it would be like, you don't know what you're talking about oh it'll be you know it'll be fine we'll manage but you don't even know what management is because you haven't asked, jane's parents and in particular jane's mother and i'm not nagging at you about this i'm just, saying that jane's hesitation i assume has something to do with the fact that you're just saying it'll be fine without actually finding out what you're talking about, if that makes sense.
[31:57] Yeah, I think that you have a point, yeah.
[32:00] So, and now you're obviously, you listen to this show. You're all very smart. That's great. So, no, I mean, I'd put everyone who listens to the show, like, yeah, top 1% of intelligence. You're an intelligent guy. So what I'm saying, I assume, is quite obvious, right?
[32:18] Yeah, not that you say, yeah.
[32:20] Well, as a smart guy, why wouldn't this have been something that you would have done already? Because you're a smart guy. So it's not like, oh, I can't possibly. I mean, it would be like if I want to go into business and I'm going to risk my entire life savings. Let's say I want to open up a coffee shop. right and i'm trying to convince my wife hey we should take our entire life savings and we should open up a coffee shop right it'll be fine, and my wife's father my father-in-law ran a coffee shop for 20 years and i never thought of asking him for any advice wouldn't that be strange yeah.
[33:12] It's strange yeah.
[33:13] So that's my question. I'm sorry, go ahead.
[33:17] Yeah, I'm thinking what the reason could be that I didn't think of this.
[33:24] Well, also, it should be Jane's parents' job, just to let you off the hook a little bit. Thanks. I mean, if I've run, like, let's say that my daughter marries some guy, or is really interested in some guy, and I hear that that guy... Wants to start a podcast, right? What would I do?
[33:49] You would try to help him.
[33:51] Well, yeah, I'd talk to him about it, right? So, I guess another question is, Jane, I mean, obviously you know your parents infinitely better than I do, but why do you think that your parents haven't talked to you and Bob about the issue of kids and so on?
[34:17] I mean they are like um we don't want to bother you with anything so if you have a question come to us and we will likely respond so if bob would come uh to ask them questions they would be like willingly uh to give them answer to give him answers um but that's.
[34:38] Not that's not ideal parenting, right? I mean, that would be like, hey, so, you know, hey, honey, my daughter, your husband wants to start a podcast, you know, if you guys have any questions, you can blah, blah, blah, right? But I would be more proactive, right? Wouldn't it be better to be more proactive?
[34:57] Yeah, it would be.
[34:59] We're talking about something a whole lot more important than a podcast, which is the health and well-being of children and a family, right? So why do you think your parents haven't said anything? I mean, they know you're not living in secret, are you?
[35:17] No, no, no.
[35:18] Okay, good. You're not living in secret. They know about the existence of Bob. They're aware, right? Okay.
[35:26] Yeah, they are.
[35:27] Do you guys live together?
[35:28] Yeah, we moved in like in May this year.
[35:32] Okay.
[35:34] Um yeah so um well i also mentioned like especially two years ago or a year ago as i mentioned before that um my maybe i wouldn't have like to have children because of my disease because it's now really bad and they were like oh you will get better you will see and then like you will see you will have a desire to have family like just wait for it um and now when i mention yeah well i don't know and they're like oh just yeah just you wait for it so i don't think that they really hear me um i don't really think that they see this kind of perspective of like let's talk about uh this with bob and what i don't have this feeling that they have they ever asked sorry interrupt.
[36:25] Have they ever asked you, Jane, what Bob thinks about children, whether he wants children? Have they ever asked about that?
[36:38] Yeah. Yeah, they asked.
[36:39] Okay. So they say, does Bob want children? And you say what?
[36:45] They say that if we are playing with my nephew, he also has this autoimmune disease, but it's not that bad. However, if they see Bob playing with my nephew, they're like, oh, you're so cute, it's with you, you should be a dad. And they are just like, oh, he has a lot of potential, he is good with children. They are giving observations of what they see. So, yeah, and they are just saying, yeah, yeah, you should have to then get married.
[37:28] That's interesting. So why do you think they're not talking about it directly?
[37:35] What do you mean by talking directly?
[37:38] Well, saying. So, I mean, again, I'm putting myself in, you know, this is the dad's perspective. But if my daughter was in her 30s and living with a guy, I would say, well, what's going on? Why aren't you married? Are you going to have children? All of this kind of stuff, right? I would say all of that. And I guess that's what I'm trying to understand.
[38:09] Yeah, well, we also talked about this already, and I just said, I don't know if I want them or if I would maybe be a good mother. No, I didn't say that, but if I would like to have them. And they said, yeah, firstly, oh, you will see, you will have this desire. And the other thing was that they were quiet they were like you know, usually for decisions that you make in your life you're very certain you know the best if you need any questions we're here but otherwise we won't ask you anymore, yeah from my perspective it's like why don't you are more interested of why or how or whatever, they just say like if you will need anything you know where to find us yeah so they give this kind of support.
[39:10] Right but they also know that if you're in your early 30s that you're only a couple of years away from what's called geriatric pregnancy.
[39:19] Yeah yeah yeah so.
[39:22] Do your family does your family not talk about much at all?
[39:29] No, no, no.
[39:31] Hmm. Okay.
[39:34] Yeah, no.
[39:36] Okay. I can tell you why I think, I don't know, obviously, but I can tell you why I think that they are not talking about this.
[39:46] Please tell us what you think. Good idea.
[39:51] Well, I think that they want, I mean, sorry, Jane, do they want you to get married to Bob? Do you think?
[40:00] Yeah, generally they want to, like they have this desire, but also again, they said like whatever you will decide, it's fine.
[40:13] Well, I think parents in general want to see their children get married, don't they?
[40:18] Yeah, I think my parents do want to see me get married Do.
[40:22] They like Bob?
[40:23] Yeah, they really like Bob Okay.
[40:26] But they've never talked to either of you about getting married Yeah.
[40:34] They said questions like Also, when is your turn? Like, will you get married? Yeah because we do attend some weddings of our friends and then we when we discuss of how like the night was and the party and they were like now you're next in line when will this happen.
[40:58] But they they just kind of make jokes they don't actually sit.
[41:02] Down and and try and yeah yeah make this like jokes okay yes yes yes are.
[41:08] There any other family members who've talked to you seriously about getting married or issues with children?
[41:18] Yeah, like my brothers, yes.
[41:21] Okay. And what do they say?
[41:24] Um, they also say, like, you will see, it will come a time, like, I understand you, but, you know, like, this is selfish if you decide not to get children.
[41:39] Oh, so it's about the kids, not the marriage thing. Okay, that's fine. I was just curious. Yeah, yeah.
[41:42] Like, yeah, no, but, yeah, yeah, sorry.
[41:45] Sorry, do your brothers, does your brother have children?
[41:47] Uh, yeah, yeah, the older one has children.
[41:50] And what happened with their illnesses, if they had them?
[41:54] Yeah, the child has had it, but it's manageable at the moment, so not a big deal yet. Yes, but I think that they hear me and they support me in whatever I would decide.
[42:17] Okay, okay. So I think that... I would guess that your parents, Jane, are thinking something like this, that we don't want to address this directly, because if we address this directly, then he might not marry you. In other words, if we're direct and honest about how difficult it was to raise two children with an autoimmune disorder, that Bob, well, he might freak out, right? He might leave, right?
[42:54] Just to correct, she has two brothers.
[42:59] Two brothers, sorry about that. Okay.
[43:01] Yeah.
[43:01] And they all have the autoimmune thing?
[43:04] Yeah, yeah.
[43:05] Okay. Yeah, so if they're honest and say, well, here's what it cost us, here's how difficult it was, and so on, then they might be concerned that if they address it directly and put all their cards on the table, that Bob might... Do not want to go forward. And Jane, of course, if you're in your early 30s, and you've been with Bob.
[43:33] For two and a half years, then this is not for certain, but this is most likely your only chance, to, I wouldn't say the only chance to get married, but it's your only chance to get married in the realm of children or with children on the table. Because if you wait until you're mid-late 30s and you are, I'm sure you would be, of course, that you're honest about the autoimmune disorder, then a guy who wants to have kids would probably look for somebody without a genetic ailment like this. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I think that your parents probably think that this is really your only chance to get married in this kind of way. And if it weren't to work out with Bob, then, you know, you'd probably spend a year recovering from the breakup because it's usually half the length of the relationship to recover from it. And then your mid-30s and it becomes progressively more difficult. Because most men, particularly successful men, I mean, why do men become successful?
[44:39] Well, to have children. That's why we are so crazy productive. That's why we have all this testosterone. And that's why we have this weird focus thing that men do. It's, you know, men are successful, particularly as men get older. The success is there for children, because when a man has a family and has a wife and kids, 90% of his money goes to his wife and children. Now, of course, there are some men who are like, well, all they want to do is rent a yacht and party and, you know, but that's kind of weird and damaged and and not not the norm that's that's men being you know kind of selfish and and all of that so so men who are successful are driven by that success and that success also drives them to want to have children and so i would imagine your parents jane unconsciously are saying well uh if if our daughter is going to get a successful man then it's going to be tricky, if she's too old to have children. Now, you're not too old to have children, but there is, of course, the autoimmune issue. So I would imagine that...
[45:54] They don't want to discuss this directly for fear that it might drive Bob away. And that would almost certainly hamper your ability to get married to a successful man. I'm just guessing, but that would be my guess.
[46:13] Yeah. Well, I don't know what they are thinking, but I don't think that this is the thing. Because sometimes when we were sitting together after lunch and I was asking questions about this disease and how it was, they are talking about it freely. They say that it was very hard, that there were many nights that we didn't sleep and things like that. So they express everything about it. I don't think that this could be the reason.
[46:50] Well, but have they talked about all of that with Bob?
[46:54] I mean, not specifically just with him, but like when everybody was around the table.
[47:03] Yes. Okay, so they have talked about all of that. And why do you think they haven't been more direct with Bob and sat Bob down? You know, there's the old question that parents are supposed to ask, particularly fathers, which is, what is your intention? What are your intentions with my daughter or with our daughter? And why do you think they've been so much hands-off about this?
[47:29] This is just how they are. This is how they behave, how they think. I don't know.
[47:38] Are they Christians?
[47:40] Yeah, they are.
[47:43] And as Christians, what do they think of you guys living together before marriage?
[47:51] I mean, probably they would like more that we would get married before, but still, they accept our reality.
[48:04] Okay. And so, Bob, what about your parents? What do they think of all of this?
[48:15] Yeah, they also want us to get married, especially my mother asks me directly or says that we should get married, but we have kind of a distance to relationship, me and my parents because of the childhood. So I don't really take their opinions to my heart. I'd say like that.
[48:46] Right, okay. Okay. And are there any other relatives, Bob, that you have on your side of the family, of course, that are talking to you about marriage or children or anything like that?
[49:06] Yeah, my grandmother, she's similar to Jane's parents. She mentions it every now and then, but doesn't sit me down and talk about it seriously. I would say the most active in this is my aunt. She is borderline pushy about it, but she wants us to get married. And she believes in us.
[49:45] Okay. And tell me a little bit about how you met.
[49:51] How we met.
[49:51] Yeah.
[49:53] So we were going to the same class of dancing, swing dancing.
[49:59] Oh, nice.
[50:00] Yes. And then we locked eyes and then I invited her for some dates. We went to hiking, we went to a drink and then just on from there. It was fun because I asked her pretty, I mean, pretty, very early, after three weeks, if she wants to be my girlfriend, and then I already have some vacations booked, so I was off for two months, so we, so we didn't see each other for, for two months, and yeah, that, that, that was just like, uh, in that passed, so nothing real. I mean, it didn't break us, I'd say.
[50:56] Okay. And what would you say drew you to each other at the beginning?
[51:04] I can say for me that I was attracted to her. I liked her lively spirit. I would say nature she was a very happy person easy going I liked her humor, and I wanted to I see that I wanted to pursue her.
[51:37] All right. And Jane, what about for you?
[51:42] So I was very, like, he attracted me because he was very into nature, into getting to know new things about sports. And I really liked that he was very deep. He was talking about emotions, which was new to me from a guy. Um yeah uh like he was very um uh like he was very careful of uh how i feel what to say like um yeah um yeah like i really like that he was very like he knew what he wanted also while he was working He has everything organized, and this is what I really liked. On the other hand, he was very emotional, very active, and as well, easygoing.
[52:47] And how much, and I don't have any problem with physical attraction, that's very important, but how much was physical attraction part of your initial appeal to each other?
[52:59] Yeah, for me, it was very high.
[53:02] And what is it about his look that you like?
[53:06] Well, everything.
[53:09] A tiny bit more specific. It can't be just like his entire being, every single cell, his liver, his kidney.
[53:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I don't know what to say.
[53:24] Well, tall, dark, handsome, great.
[53:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[53:27] What are you talking about?
[53:29] Yeah, yeah, so that he's taller than me. This is what I like because I'm also quite tall.
[53:36] Oh, so you need a tall guy in a way, right?
[53:40] Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, like, I don't know, who will be himself? Yeah.
[53:52] All right. And what about the other way?
[53:56] For me?
[53:57] Yeah.
[53:59] So for me, of course, it was part of the equation how physically attractive we are, but I also put much more emphasis on her as a person, so like her humor, her good heart.
[54:20] Okay, so then you said in the first couple of dates you talked about kids, right? Yeah and tell me a little bit about how that conversation went.
[54:34] Do you remember? Yeah, like Bob mentioned that he would like to marry and to start a family. I said that I might or might not, that I can't promise him anything. But I'm open for both options. um so yeah we we were very like um we we said everything as it was we didn't hide anything.
[55:09] Okay now jane when it comes to being open to having children, i'm i was in the business world for a long time so i'm used to putting numbers i'm used to putting numbers to things. So I'm not sure what it means when you say you would be open to it. So what percentage open? Like, is it 50-50? You want kids? You flip a coin, you're happy either way? Or what does that mean?
[55:45] Yeah, I would say that 50-50 would be the percentage.
[55:51] Okay. That's a difficult percentage to work with. i.
[55:55] Know i know i know i know.
[55:57] Right okay so how would i mean of course this is the fundamental question and i know that there's no easy answer but when i have a 50 50 i add up the pluses i add up the minuses two columns you know the usual thing where you try to quantify things and so, how would you decide if something's 50 50 it's tough to decide right if it's 99 one it's pretty easy to decide but if something's 50 50 it's very difficult to decide so how do you decide it.
[56:32] Well probably i haven't decided yet.
[56:35] Um you have to decide or nature makes the decision for you Yeah.
[56:40] Yeah, yeah. I know, I know. Like, what I think, that we try to prolong the decision, when somebody from the sky will say, you should do this, but I know that this won't happen. Yeah, so probably we are just prolonging the decision.
[57:04] So you haven't told me how you're going to decide. And this is both of you, I mean, but how are you going to decide?
[57:12] Yeah, we were thinking of setting a date. I mean, for example, we have to decide until December.
[57:22] No, no, but a date doesn't help you decide. That just tells you when to decide. How?
[57:26] Yeah.
[57:27] Right?
[57:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[57:28] I mean, I'm not saying flip a coin. No, I'm kidding. But how do you decide?
[57:36] Well, this is also why we went to a couple's therapy. Maybe to...
[57:42] Yeah, but you got kind of bullied, I think, a tiny bit, right? Well, if you really loved her, you know, like that's, you don't really love her. It's like, you know that pair bonding is for the purpose of having children, right? I mean, so the idea that love is somehow completely separate from having children, it's like somebody who's taking a bicycle on the road saying, the road is just for me. And it's like, no, the road is built for cars. I guess you can use it. But the purpose of marriage and pair bonding and sexual attraction and love is all for children right that's what it's for yeah and so the idea that you would have a love completely independent of children is not it's not rational it's not it's not true i mean you can love people who don't have children and so on but male and female sexual romantic marriage pair bonding is for what why do we have it for children, so you can't just pull the two apart and say well you have to love her independent, of whether she can have children or wants to have children it's like because that love only exists so that we stay together for the best environment for children, right?
[59:04] But can I ask something?
[59:07] Of course, yeah, yeah.
[59:09] Then what about the couples who decided not to have children and they still love each other?
[59:15] I mean, that's fine, but that's not what she was saying. I mean, if I understand the therapist correctly, and I'm not trying to diss her, I'm just telling you the sort of logical analysis. So if you guys both decided not to have children right and and you you both said you know the risk is too great we have a good time uh well you wouldn't be calling me right yeah so you bob want to have children and you jane are hesitant for reasons i can completely understand hesitant to have children so as far as i understand it the therapist said to you bob, Well, if you really loved her, you just wouldn't have children, Or something like that. Unless I misunderstood something.
[1:00:07] Yeah, it was basically because I am thinking of not being with her. Because I want to have children, this is not true love from my side to her.
[1:00:22] Well, but that's saying that if you love being a father and you love the idea of having children, that you have to give that up. Yeah this is my so you you i mean saying that it's anti-love to not be with a woman who doesn't want to have children well you want to love your children so it's not anti-love, you want to be a father you want to play with your children you want to throw them up and down in the air while your mother oh sorry while their mother gets nervous right i mean you want to go through that whole, you want to love your children. It's not anti-love. So, and, you know, I got to tell you guys, man, it's a long life if you don't have kids. Because, I mean, you guys are young, right? And if you don't have kids, and I'm not making an argument either way, I'm just telling you things that maybe your parents should have told you because I'm old enough to be your Thank you, Dad. Oh, God, I'm getting old. But if you don't have kids, I mean, how many of the people in your social circle are having children?
[1:01:39] Me? Pretty much full of them?
[1:01:41] Right.
[1:01:42] No, not all of them. No.
[1:01:45] What percentage would you say?
[1:01:49] 70?
[1:01:50] 70%?
[1:01:51] Yeah.
[1:01:53] Now, the remaining 30%, do they not want children, or are they just not in the right place to have children?
[1:02:01] Yeah, some of them don't want to have children, and some are just like, probably not, but we'll see what happens. Okay.
[1:02:11] So as you age, most people have children. And as you age, you just have less and less in common with people who have children because their lives revolve around their children and you just don't have much in common. It's like trying to join a chess club when you don't really play chess. And so you will end up with less and less in common with the people who have children. And also, as you get older, it is important to be concerned about the challenges of regret.
[1:02:54] And this is for both of you, but I think more for Bob, because you don't have the genetic issue. And again, I don't know whether you guys should stay together or have children or whatever, right? But I will say this, that let's say 10 years down the road, Bob, you wake up one day, and this happens. I've talked to people where this has happened to, and you wake up one day and it's like, oh my God, did I miss out? I really, really want to have children. And Jane is too old, but you can still have children. And that's a tough thing. They call it baby rabies. I don't know if you've heard the phrase. Baby rabies. And it often hits women in their 30s, the way they just are desperate to have a baby. And they describe it as always being hungry or always having to pee. It's just this urge or this ache. And it happens to men as well. And it can be an odd thing. You can just be walking in the park, and you can look over, and you can see a guy, maybe he looks a little bit like you, and he's got two or three kids, and he's pushing them on the swing, and they're climbing up, and you're like, that could be me. That could have been me.
[1:04:11] And that possibility of regret i don't know whether you'll have it or not but it's important to look at the possibility that you might have it if that makes it you might have that kind of regret and if you have that kind of regret then it might it might end the relationship anyway.
[1:04:32] Because you might be like oh you know and it's almost impossible to avoid this you know well if it wasn't for you and i would have had kids and like i'm not saying it's fair or right but it is something that that happens to people right and so that i can't answer for you and it's almost impossible to answer in a way but i would certainly say it is something that you really need to consider which is that possibility of regret because however you know fun and charming and nice your life is now because you're young you know we all get old and when we get old, it's nice to have new life around it's nice to have grandchildren it's nice to have, a house full of people and the only way to really have a house full of people when you're old is to have a family i'm not saying you won't have people anyone in your house but the only way to really have a house full of people and have that kind of life when you get old is in general to um.
[1:05:47] To have kids. And again, whether you do that or not, I, you know, but, but that's, I think it's an important consideration. And I, I mean, I always wanted to be a father, and I mean, I worked in a daycare and I get along very well with kids and all of that kind of good stuff. And I always wanted to be a father. And so i'm very glad that i had the opportunity to do that of course and if i hadn't had the opportunity to do that uh i i would have missed out on some sort of very great and deep and real.
[1:06:30] Pleasures so, So I'm concerned that you guys are drifting and that you're enjoying every day, which is fine. You know, we've got to enjoy the day. I get that. But I'm concerned that you just aren't making those tough decisions and you're just kind of letting life make those decisions for you, which it will. And it won't be that long. You know, another couple of years and, you know, mid-30s, do you want to start especially with the hesitations and i don't i mean just personally again i'm i'm pushing 60 so uh forgive me for being old guy on a mountaintop but i don't really regret the decisions i made i regret the decisions i didn't make if that makes sense.
[1:07:30] Yeah, I think that, yeah, we both agree that we are kind of delaying the tough decisions.
[1:07:39] Okay, so why do you think you're doing that?
[1:07:44] Because it's tough, to be honest.
[1:07:46] Well, sure, but I mean, I understand that, but it's also, I mean, you know, it's also tough if you don't.
[1:07:56] Yeah, it's both ways, yeah. For me, I would say that I don't want to, in a way, give up. I'm also not really giving up, it's just making a decision. But I would very much want to have children with Jane. Or concerned that I might be too soon, too early to leave.
[1:08:31] So you want to have children with Jane and you're concerned that it might be too early to leave?
[1:08:35] That if I exit, I mean, if I leave her too early, that I might make a mistake because No.
[1:08:45] No, bro.
[1:08:46] Down the road, she would.
[1:08:47] Bro, two and a half years. Might want to have to turn. Hang on, hang on, hang on. So two and a half years. That's not a rush. You guys have had two and a half years. That's a long time. Most of her ancestors had to decide to get married in three months. Two and a half years is a long time in a relationship. I mean, tell me if you disagree.
[1:09:17] Um no i agree i agree i think we also have to count in the the disease and all that what's happening but.
[1:09:26] Well no no but that's that's a different category it's just if you if you tell me well two and a half years to make a decision about a relationship is too soon and i'm like it's really not you have all the information that you need to make the decision. And again, I don't know what the decision should be. But saying it's too soon, if it was like two months into the relationship, I'd say, yeah, I can see that. But not two and a half years.
[1:09:56] Yeah, I don't think that it's too soon because it's really not, but I think that we both feel that we, like, we feel more than we did in like previous relationships.
[1:10:13] Sorry, you feel, I didn't quite catch that. Sorry, you feel what?
[1:10:15] So, we feel that we feel more like that this is the right place to be, that we are more like confident that it's something more than just that it was before. That we're meant for each other. Yeah.
[1:10:39] So the relationship is better than what you've had before.
[1:10:42] Yeah yeah yeah um but i don't know what we are waiting for um.
[1:10:49] Well you're waiting now i can tell you what you're waiting for you're waiting to make a decision about children yeah i mean if okay let me ask you this have you talked to a geneticist and gotten the more exact odds of the likelihood of your children having this genetic disorder no.
[1:11:09] We haven't done that.
[1:11:11] Oh, Geist. Why not? Because you can get all of these things tested. I don't know how good it is. I mean, I assume it's somewhat decent. But you can get all of these stuff tested. So why wouldn't you say, you know, here's my cheek swab, here's your cheek swab. Give us the numbers, Doc.
[1:11:37] Well yeah i was i was speaking to doctors about this even before and they say well yeah there is a chance you don't know.
[1:11:46] Like it's a chance there's a chance you could win the lottery what does that mean there's a chance you get hit by a meteor but it's not the same as yeah i know there's a chance you could survive jumping out of an airplane but i'd like to know the actual numbers yeah.
[1:12:00] But i don't think that they know them.
[1:12:02] Well no the doctor hang on so a doctor won't know these things but a genetic specialist would wouldn't they i mean your doctor can't look at you guys and you know eyeball you and hold up his thumb and measure your phrenology and tell but i think i think again i'm no expert on this but as far as i understand it you can go to geneticists and you can both give your genetics and they can give you a number.
[1:12:34] From what I know, and I know that I have said before that I don't know much, but I don't think there are any tests for this. Yeah, no, genetically, yeah. There? Okay, so we can...
[1:12:49] I'm sorry, Bob, you're saying there are no genetic tests, and Jane is saying that there are genetic tests.
[1:12:55] No, I said I don't think that there are, but now that she said that there are, we will do that, yeah.
[1:13:02] Guys, okay, I need you to pull your heads out of your armpits, because we're talking about love and life and marriage and children. You have got to stop avoiding issues. Get to a geneticist. Get a number. If the number is 5%, does that affect your decision?
[1:13:27] Yeah, it does, yeah.
[1:13:28] If the number is 95%, does that affect your decision?
[1:13:32] Of course. Right.
[1:13:35] Would you bet on anything without knowing the odds?
[1:13:40] No.
[1:13:44] So that's what I need to understand is where the passivity is coming in. Where this like, well, we're just going to hang around and we're going to date and we're going to live together and we're going to chug along with their lives. But the most important information that you need is a two-digit number. Percent likelihood, of this mutation being passed to the children. Do I have that right?
[1:14:15] Yes, so I never thought that there is a test and that you can measure what's the chance your children are having this disease.
[1:14:26] Sorry, I didn't quite catch that thought.
[1:14:29] Okay, so I said that I didn't thought of this. If there is a test that you can take and see the chances.
[1:14:40] No, I don't believe you for a second. I love you to death, man, but you're not telling me the truth. two and a half years this has been the most important question in your relationship is that fair to say yeah.
[1:14:53] From your point of view yeah but from mine not that much.
[1:14:56] Well certainly bob for you right yeah yeah so for you the most important question is having children and it's important because of how much you love jane if you didn't love jane it wouldn't be an important question because you wouldn't be together. If you didn't love her very much, you'd just break up, right? But you love her a lot. And so you need that number. Now, saying, well, I don't know, it didn't, you know, I mean, come on, you're an intelligent guy. You know that there's genetic testing, right?
[1:15:31] Yeah.
[1:15:32] And so then the question is, and I'm not trying to be a big nag here. I'm just genuinely curious. So that's your big question. And why not try to answer it?
[1:15:59] Yeah, I'm thinking it's the same reason that I'm trying to avoid making the decision. This is my first guess.
[1:16:13] Okay so if you get the number, and you're scared to get if you get in the number you're scared of it being like 90 likely that the genetic ailment will pass along right, yeah okay so and listen i mean obviously that's a difficult thing but tell me the major or the most important difficulty for that.
[1:16:44] Or this disease?
[1:16:47] Well, let's say you get, I don't think it would be the case, but what do I know, right? But let's say that you get the answer back that based upon the combination of your genetics, it's 90% likely that your children will have this ailment, right? So let's say you get that. Then tell me about the difficulties for you and again i understand them but i want to just make sure i understand them from your perspective.
[1:17:17] Yeah um my my thoughts if i would get that number is that yes there there will be most certainly disillusioned with my children but at the same time I saw like with her nephew that it's really not impacting his life and then Jane's brother kind of got rid of this disease in a way so it's not like 100% chance that that this will be very bad for the child.
[1:18:00] Well, I don't know. Again, I'm not a geneticist, but I have some doubt that they would be able to tell you how bad it could be. I think they would only be able to tell you the probability. Again, Jane, you know a lot more about this than I do, I assume, but is that a fair statement?
[1:18:16] Mm-hmm.
[1:18:19] Okay.
[1:18:21] Yeah.
[1:18:21] So, why avoid this information?
[1:18:35] Right yeah, actually i i honestly think uh i didn't think of it.
[1:18:45] No no no i i can't i can't give you that because i can't i can't treat you as an idiot i just can't i won't do it i won't do it.
[1:18:53] I know you don't.
[1:18:54] I won't believe me and you're not you're not because it's it's blindingly obvious right it.
[1:19:00] Is now yeah.
[1:19:01] All right so i think that you both have been almost colluding about this because this is the most obvious and essential information to get because if something's 50 50 you can't decide like nothing in life is actually 50 50 but let's say that something is exactly 50 50 it's impossible to make a decision so jane when you said it's 50 50 i'm like i bet it's not But you make it 50-50 because then it becomes impossible to make the decision. If everything is perfectly balanced, like let's say that you don't have a GPS and you come to a road, the road goes left and the road goes right, and you have no idea which way to go. Is there any rational way to make that decision?
[1:19:47] I mean, I could ask somebody.
[1:19:50] Let's just say you're driving and there's cars behind you and you've got to go and you've got to just drive.
[1:19:55] Yeah.
[1:19:56] There's no way to make, you just, I don't know, left or right, you know, but there's no way to make that decision. So when people say 50-50, what they mean is procrastination.
[1:20:14] I mean, yeah, in some point, of course, but in the length, yeah. But I think we are both doing some steps in order to find out for ourselves what to do. It is not just like that we are lying and doing nothing about it.
[1:20:35] Okay, so hang on. I'm sorry to interrupt. But the most important step you need to take is to find the number.
[1:20:42] Well, for me, I mean for Bob, maybe yes, but I didn't think about this. Because it's too hard at the moment for me to live because it was tough with the disease. So I don't care. I just want to survive. So I didn't really think about other options at all.
[1:21:09] Well, but I'm sorry to interrupt. And I would put that, this is a mildly critical thing, I suppose, but also it's an encouraging thing. And again, it's just my opinion. But Jane, I think that the deficiency of love, for Bob.
[1:21:29] Yeah, I agree.
[1:21:29] Because I had the disease, and I hugely sympathize with that, and I don't want the information. But Bob needs the number. So I don't know. I mean, if I was the... I'm not a therapist, right? But I would ask, rather than saying to Bob, well, if you really loved Jane, you just wouldn't have kids. And it's like, that's not really an answer. But I would say to you, Jane... Bob needs that number. Because if the number is 95% and then you sit down with your parents and they say, oh my gosh, it was really the toughest thing that we ever did. And three kids and oh my gosh, it was brutal. Then Bob can make a decision, right? But you know a lot more about this illness than Bob does. You're not getting the number and you're not sitting down with Bob and your parents and saying, okay, let's really talk about what this means. Because for Bob, it's kind of abstract. You know, you need to spend a weekend with your parents and they need to go over everything that happens so that Bob can make a more informed decision, right?
[1:22:44] And would that, however difficult that might be for Bob in the short run, if Bob says, you know, gosh, I see why you don't want to have children or I see why you're hesitant to have children. I understand that. And having talked to your parents, I think I really understand how difficult it is. So, I love you and let's not have children, right? That could be one outcome, right? You could find out that the probability, for whatever genetic combination reasons, you could find out that the probability of this ailment being transferred to the children is very low. Which also would be helpful information for both of you, right? And you know, this is to you, Jane, you know a lot more about all of this than Bob does, but you are not giving him or getting to him the information that he needs. Now, again, Bob, you could have said, listen, let's just do some genetic testing and find out what the odds are. There's no point. There's no point just guessing and thinking and 50-50. Like, if you don't know which way to turn left or right to the car, you look at your GPS. Yes, it's because they left the right, right?
[1:24:03] Yeah, of course. You need to gain some information.
[1:24:06] Right, so you guys are avoiding information. And again, the two primary sources of information, I think, genetic testing and talking to Jane's parents.
[1:24:19] Yeah, for us, it was going to the couples therapy, the first thing.
[1:24:25] But couples therapy doesn't give you any new information. And see couples therapy can't help you i kind of does no it doesn't give you new information because, it doesn't change if it's 50 50 nobody can tell you what to do if something is literally 50 50, nobody can tell you what to do if it's 51 49 oh well okay then there's you know a bit of pressure on on one way versus the other but you know if you're on that fork in the road right it's going left, it's going right. And you're trying to get to a town. And then there's a sign on the left one that says, town this way, you go that way, right? But if you don't have any signs, then you just, I don't know, go left or go right. But nobody can tell you what is the right decision, because you just don't have the information. And that's what 50-50 is designed to paralyze. And there's a reason that for two and a half years, you guys have avoided. And look, I sympathize. I'm not, please understand, I'm not nagging. We all have this tendency. So I sympathize and I understand, but I just want to be clear that you guys have specifically avoided, the information that you need to make this decision. And the really interesting question is, why? Generally, we don't avoid information we think is going to have a good outcome.
[1:25:54] I mean, if somebody mails us a letter that says you've won the lottery and, you know, we believe it's a real thing, do we hesitate to open it? That's good news. Maybe you won some money, right? You open it, right?
[1:26:10] Yeah.
[1:26:11] If you need a new credit card and they mail you a new credit card, you don't like, oh, I don't want to open that. Maybe you get some unexpected bill, and you're like, ooh, I don't want to open that. I don't want to see the number, right? So generally, we avoid information that would be negative. And so that's what I need to ask, which is, what is the negative that you're avoiding? And again, I'm not saying there isn't one. I just want to know what it is for you.
[1:26:45] I would say it makes sense what you're just saying, but what you just said is that we don't want to find out if we don't want to continue because that would mean like breaking up and it would be painful for both of us.
[1:27:06] It would be painful for both of you, for sure. now let me ask you this my friend bob let me ask you this, there's a reason the therapist said sacrifice your interests for, jane and that's the true test of love you've got to give up wanting to have children because that means you love her right so that's called white knighting, so white knighting is when the man is just like well i'll do anything to make the woman happy and i have no needs of my own and if there's any conflict between my needs and the woman's needs i will nobly sacrifice my needs just to make her happy and you know that's a sort of kind of caricature and exaggeration but that's kind of a thing right now when you were growing up i know you said you weren't close to your parents but when you were growing up did you, Did you see that? Was your father that way? Did your father defer to your mother and sacrifice his own needs or his own preferences? Did she run the show?
[1:28:17] Yes, yes. I think so.
[1:28:19] Okay. Give me an example of that just so I know. Give me something that's vivid for you in that so I get a sense of what you were exposed to.
[1:28:28] Um my first thought is that when some when there were times when they, disagreed on something uh my mother would escalate emotionally on the topic and then she would just let go because he didn't want uh to escalate like oh so she bullied him, emotionally yeah I get.
[1:28:56] That she didn't hold his hand in the toilet. He didn't put his head in the toilet, but she was a bully in that she would escalate until he gave way.
[1:29:06] This is how I saw it, yeah. I see.
[1:29:08] Well, I mean, there's nobody else here, so we have to go with what you saw. I don't know where the objective facts exist in the universe, but we have our perceptions. Okay. And do you remember a time when your father got his way over the objections of your mother.
[1:29:30] Ugh. It was, yeah, there were times, but the end result was not good, I think, in the end.
[1:29:48] Give me an example of that, if you could.
[1:29:53] So let's say the only way I saw my father, let's say, winning argument in a way that we would go with his opinion is in the aftermath my mother would still be like disappointed, and angry and nagging him and he would just say I don't care we're going my way So he didn't get his way, I mean not fully I don't.
[1:30:34] Know that I don't know what not fully means. Nobody ever fully gets their way.
[1:30:39] In a way that, let's say, let's give an example. My father wanted to go hiking. My mother would like to go to the beach. And then we just drove to the mountains, even though my mother was snagging him and being...
[1:31:00] Oh, so she just made him suffer.
[1:31:03] Yeah, yeah. okay okay so yeah we go to hiking but at this expense so not fully okay.
[1:31:13] And did that continue do you know i mean you say you're not close but you know that never changed i assume.
[1:31:22] I think now that they that they are alone they get along better um but i know that there are still, topics in their lives that they don't want to touch or go to or discover.
[1:31:40] And how did they discipline the kids?
[1:31:46] Us?
[1:31:47] Yeah.
[1:31:51] Spanking was used like, let's say, five times in our lives. But mostly the thing was that my brother was also mentally ill and he was physically and emotionally abusive towards me, my parents didn't really prevent that, this is the main reason why I'm not close to them now, So in a way, they weren't really... What was the question?
[1:32:37] Right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that. What do you mean by mentally ill?
[1:32:41] So when he was born, he couldn't breathe for some time. And then part of his brain died out. And he was mentally less capable.
[1:32:57] Oh, so he was developmentally delayed? So it wasn't like he had depression or what some people would call it. Like he had a physical brain injury from lack of oxygen. Is that right?
[1:33:09] Yeah. Yeah. Oxygen.
[1:33:12] I mean, I assume, was he tested? I mean, did he get an IQ diagnosis?
[1:33:21] I don't think so. He finished some lower school, but that was it because he couldn't do more complex work.
[1:33:30] Oh, gosh. I'm really sorry. That's very tough.
[1:33:34] It is.
[1:33:34] That is very tough. And is he still living with your parents?
[1:33:38] Yeah, he is. He cannot live on his own, so they're taking care of him.
[1:33:44] Okay. Okay. Wow. Okay. All right. Again, very, very sorry about all of that. That is very tough indeed. It's very tough indeed.
[1:33:57] Thank you. Okay.
[1:34:00] All right. So, Jane, do you know this, you know all of this about Bob, right?
[1:34:09] Yeah, yeah. Okay.
[1:34:11] So you know that Bob grew up in a situation where he could not exercise his willpower. He could not exercise his will or free choice.
[1:34:19] Yes.
[1:34:22] So when you give him something that's 50-50, that kind of is like some elements of his childhood.
[1:34:30] Yeah.
[1:34:31] You see what I mean? You can't choose. Now, so listen, this is, I mean, an important relationship principle is to find out what happened to your partner when your partner was little. Right? And of course, in this case, you found out that Bob was not able to make a choice and that he saw his mother dominate his father, right? Now, what is the most important thing to do for Bob being his girlfriend, knowing that that's the fact?
[1:35:18] What's the most important thing you need to do.
[1:35:26] Well, now, I mean.
[1:35:30] Now when you met him, when you, right?
[1:35:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, regardless of the topic, he needs to have a space where he can talk about what he thinks. When he can search for the information, share the information, and be accepted in opinion.
[1:36:00] So you very much need to make sure that bob has maximum capacity to exercise his choices, yeah and i'm sorry to let corner you have you been doing that but i mean tell me tell me how that's been part of your relationship because we all have to adapt to the difficulties that our partners had and they should adapt to our difficulties in childhood. So you know that Bob was bullied and Bob was not allowed to make choices and make decisions, right? You know that. And so how has that been your approach to try and make sure as much as possible that he gets more of an ability to make choices and decisions?
[1:36:49] I mean we talk about it uh like whenever we have to make some decision um like for example where would we like to go for a trip like nothing um uh it's not big of a deal um so yeah i asked him did you do a research what do you want to do um i did a research so then we are talking of what to do. I ask him, why would you like to go there? What would you like to see? Why? I give him questions. I try to listen to him, to give him space to express. But also respect his silence when he would love to be like in his own space for a while. So, probably doing both things.
[1:37:54] Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. So, with regards to his desire to have children, and knowing that he has a very tough... He was modeled on, you do what the woman wants. Right? So, if there's any conflict between Bob and you, his programming from childhood is to do what you want. Like his father did, right?
[1:38:24] Yeah.
[1:38:24] So knowing that, with regards to children, how have you tried to help Bob make that decision?
[1:38:40] I was talking about what I know about this disease and how I was dealing with it. We talk about it. We talk about different situations that I deal with in the workplace. I ask him about opinion. What would you do if? It's also important for me to talk about these topics, so it's not like that I try to avoid the topic, but I also share the opinion, but it's not now about Bob, so yeah, well, yeah, like that. I like I remind him when I go to babysit some friends babies or like I always say do you want to go let's like let's play with them let's go together, I think that when we talk about it she's always very honest about it and she doesn't like shy away from this topic Well.
[1:40:08] Okay, so let me ask you this. If the end result of you thinking about this for a quarter century is 50-50, how do you think that affects Bob?
[1:40:24] Well, it both affects.
[1:40:29] I know, I'm asking about Bob.
[1:40:32] Yeah, I know.
[1:40:33] Of course it affects both, yes.
[1:40:34] Yeah, I know. I mean, He would continue to, like, do things that he likes them now. He would prolong this decision even more. But I don't think that he would be okay with it. I think he would like to decide. And I think that he would like to decide.
[1:41:06] Okay. Do you think that what you're saying makes much sense at the moment? Sorry to be direct. You're just saying stuff, right?
[1:41:15] Well, yeah, I'm trying to think what to say.
[1:41:20] That's fine, that's fine. Okay, so if the end result of you thinking about something for a quarter century is 50-50, and you know that Bob was raised to be completely indecisive and to follow the lead of a woman, then you're in a state of no decision.
[1:41:43] Yeah, because I also don't decide, right?
[1:41:47] Well, I suppose we could put it that way. But you are deciding. Because you know that if you get genetic data, that you will have the information that you need. So you're deciding to avoid that. And you're keeping things at 50-50. And now, if... If Bob had been raised with more decisive parents or a more decisive father, if that makes sense, then Bob would have said, no, we can't do 50-50. We need to get the data. I need to make a decision. I need to prioritize things. Love you to death, but I need to make decisions whether we decide to stay together or not. I need the data. But he's not used to that because his father was pushed around and bullied by his mother. Now, of course, I'm not saying, I just want to be clear, I'm not saying that you're like his mother and it's the same or anything like that, but I'm just saying that that's his pattern or his history, if that makes sense.
[1:42:54] I really loved that you mentioned this because I would really love to see that he is like, you know what? I really need this decision. Let's make it. Let me clear. I know what I want and I want to do it, like, I want to check things out. So, yeah, I would love him to be like that. Like, yeah, I need information. Let's try to get information.
[1:43:23] I love you to death, but I don't believe you for a second. No, no, not even for a tiny split second. No, because it's like I have years and years to buy a car, and i finally end up doing a lot of research and it takes me years and i finally end up buying a convertible right like a car with an open top and i drive that car around for two and a half years and then i say to someone oh i would love it if this car was a minivan would you believe me.
[1:43:59] Yeah, I would say, okay, so what's your next step?
[1:44:02] No, you wouldn't believe me. Because you'd say to me, if you wanted a minivan, why did you spend years researching and test driving and then driving around a sports car?
[1:44:17] Yeah, because then you were thinking before that this is what you like. So you went with what you thought.
[1:44:25] Well but if i kept the sports car while saying i really wished it was a minivan what would you say to me.
[1:44:31] Yeah go for it.
[1:44:34] You'd say well get rid of the sports car and get the minivan right, yeah well stop saying you wish the sports car was a minivan right so saying i wish bob was fundamentally different which is what you're saying i don't believe you because you chose bob And that's why I asked earlier, right? I asked, that's not a trap. I'm just, I asked earlier what attracted you to each other. And you said all of these positive, wonderful things, right? And now saying, well, I chose Bob and I've been with Bob for two and a half years and he's the greatest guy ever. And, but boy, I really, really wish he was different. Now, so saying, I wish, okay, let me ask you, Jane, this is the big question. Okay. In your family, was your mother or your father more in charge or were they equal?
[1:45:29] Mother.
[1:45:29] There you go.
[1:45:30] Mother.
[1:45:31] There you go. So that's why. That's why you have this competitive. I'm not saying it's the only reason you're together. But you guys both grew up with dominant mothers, right? And you chose Bob because you guys, your histories fit together. You chose Bob because he doesn't do what you now say you want him to do. And let me let me give you i can tell you i can prove this to you in in in one second right, yes right so if bob said all right up honey we're going to a geneticist we're going to get the data on this how would you feel yes let's do it no come on be honest how would you feel i know how you would feel how would you feel no.
[1:46:16] You know because i really like i really want also to do a decision because it's not, like, for me, it's not okay anymore to be 50-50. So, whatever it takes...
[1:46:28] Okay, let's say within a month or two of dating, Bob said, you know, I really like you, I'm concerned about this genetic stuff, so let's go get tested, and let's figure out what the odds are of us passing this stuff on to the kids. What would you feel?
[1:46:45] I mean, yeah, I would say it's so early, But yeah, I mean, why not?
[1:46:54] Why not? If it's so obvious, why not? Then why haven't you done it?
[1:47:01] I don't think that this was the only issue.
[1:47:05] No, no, you don't have to answer my question, but you can't just ignore it, right? So if you say this is so important and good, why haven't you done it?
[1:47:23] I think you pushed a bit of that.
[1:47:30] I'm sorry?
[1:47:35] Yeah, I will keep thinking about your questions.
[1:47:40] Well, and so the question is, if you wanted Bob to be assertive or, I don't know, maybe even a little dominant or something like that, then why would you choose a guy who was pushed around his entire childhood and doesn't really have those skills? Or if you did want that from Bob, then you would date Bob and you'd say, Bob, you know, you're a great guy. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. And he'd say, oh, you know, I, my dad was pushed around by my mom and she was bullied and I was bullied. And it's like, oh, okay. I like a man who's kind of assertive. And clearly you didn't learn that assertiveness. In fact, any kind of assertiveness because Bob, when you were a kid, was punished. So I like a guy who's a bit more assertive. I love everything else about you, but we're going to have to work on this assertiveness stuff. And then you'd try and figure out how to do that, right? Is there anything like that happen?
[1:48:41] I think she should give him space.
[1:48:46] No, no, no. Because if she likes you to be assertive, and she notices that you're not assertive, and then she finds out from your childhood, like if I married a woman or I was dating a woman and I desperately wanted her to learn Japanese, and she didn't grow up learning Japanese, I would say, oh, I would love for you to learn Japanese. Maybe we could do that together, or maybe I could help you learn Japanese, or something like that, right? But if I really want a woman who speaks Japanese, I should just choose a woman who speaks Japanese, right? I shouldn't choose a woman who doesn't speak Japanese and then two and a half years later say, oh, I just, I really wish she spoke Japanese.
[1:49:32] Makes sense, yeah.
[1:49:33] And so I don't like it. And personally, I'm just going to be, you know, it doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm going to be honest about what I think, which is I don't like it when people say about their partner, I wish they were fundamentally different from who they are. So, Jane, if you say about Bob, I really wish he was assertive or this or that or the other. Well, why did you choose him then? I think you chose him because you're both familiar with the woman being in charge.
[1:50:01] And that's what you grew up with. That's the language you speak. And I bet you that's how you resolve differences of opinion, or you avoid them. Now, obviously, Jane, I'm not saying you're just like his mom. I'm not saying that at all. And I'm not saying you're just like your mom. But we all have conflicts in relationships. And the question is, how do we resolve them? And the best way to resolve them is for both people to state their needs, and to try and figure out something that works for both people, right? I mean, if you're selling a house, then you say, well, this is what I want for it. And the other person says, well, this is what I'll pay for it. And you try to meet somewhere in the middle, right? Something you can both live with.
[1:50:41] So I would guess though, because of Bob's history and your history too, Jane, for which I have sympathy for both of you, of course, right? But I think that what happens is you don't have open conflicts, but you avoid information to the benefit of Jane. And this is not conscious. This is not anyone being mean. These are just the habits. You don't want to have open conflicts like your parents had. But I still don't know that you have figured out how to resolve differences of opinion. And I think that's the fundamentals of avoiding this stuff. I mean, I can't conceive in my life of ever saying, I wish my wife was fundamentally different from who she is.
[1:51:38] Can I ask something?
[1:51:39] Of course.
[1:51:40] So if I understand correctly, you're saying that we don't negotiate our needs. And because of that, we are kind of drifting.
[1:51:55] You are not negotiating the foundations. And it doesn't fundamentally have anything to do with whether you have children or not. That's a separate issue. And so what it fundamentally has to do with is recognizing why you chose the other person so jane if you wanted an assertive man why wouldn't you choose an assertive man, and i can tell you it's nothing to do with you fundamentally the reason why you didn't choose an assertive man is that your mom didn't want you to. Because, let me ask you this, Bob, have you ever had any conflicts with Jane's mother?
[1:52:49] Not any big ones, no.
[1:52:51] Right. Have you ever seen Jane's mother treat Jane negatively?
[1:53:00] Yes i did.
[1:53:00] Okay now you love jane and if jane's mother if you were and listen there's nothing wrong with who you are right i mean there's pluses and minuses to all of this stuff but if you were some major assertive guy and you saw jane's mother treating her negatively what would you do.
[1:53:19] I would stop her yeah.
[1:53:21] You'd say whoa whoa whoa what are you doing right so jane for example when you said i wish that bob was assertive right that's disrespectful to bob, And so, what did I say? I said, I don't think that's right. And I don't believe you. Because if you wanted an assertive guy, you would have chosen an assertive guy. Now, I know you didn't like that, which is fine. But what was your experience of me saying, I don't believe you, and saying why?
[1:53:56] I mean, but you can also be like this to some topic, like, Like, it's not that the whole person is indecisive. Like, you can just be indecisive with some issue.
[1:54:11] Okay, so that's, hang on, that's abstract and analytical. What did I ask for, though?
[1:54:17] Sorry?
[1:54:18] How did you feel when I corrected you on you wishing Bob was different?
[1:54:27] Yeah, I didn't like that.
[1:54:28] Right, you didn't like it. And, Bob, what did you say? did you said something like, Stef, you went too far. Did you say something? I couldn't quite catch it. Because, Jane, did you get all kinds of annoyed when I said that?
[1:54:43] Yeah.
[1:54:44] No, no, I'll ask you, Jane. You got annoyed, right?
[1:54:47] Yeah.
[1:54:48] Okay. So that's an example of an assertive guy. Did you want that?
[1:54:54] Yeah.
[1:54:55] No, you didn't, because you got annoyed, right? so that was my test right so you say oh i really wish i really wish bob was assertive i'm like let's find out if jane likes assertiveness i wasn't mean was i no i didn't call you a liar i didn't i just said i don't believe you and here's why and i you know but and also said it's unconscious and i also was very clear to say i'm not saying you like your mom or like bob's mom or anything. So that's an example of an assertiveness, which bothers you, right? So that's one of the reasons you chose Bob. And I'm not saying he never does that, right? Obviously, I don't have a monopoly on this stuff. But one of the reasons, one of the main reasons you chose Bob is Bob doesn't do that as much, right?
[1:55:46] Yeah.
[1:55:47] Because that's what you're used to. That's how you grew up. That's what Bob's used to. And that's how he grew up, right?
[1:55:53] Mm-hmm.
[1:55:54] And that's the natural state. There's nothing wrong with any of this. We just need to be aware of it. It's natural for us to copy our parents, because our parents, by definition, are sexually successful, and therefore, they are our template for how to reproduce. So, we copy our parents. That's what works, and that's how we evolved, and that's what was available in the tribe. So, I'm not criticizing anyone here, but I got this wave of chilly female breath coming out of you when I was being sort of more assertive and say what I didn't believe and why. And the reason why you chose Bob, and I'm not saying it's the only reason, but one important reason why you chose Bob is he was never going to bother your mother. He was never going to say, if your mother said something foolish or wrong, which we all do, right? Bob wasn't going to say, uh, no, sorry. I don't believe you. I don't, I don't believe you. And I also don't like the way you're treating my wife. And let me tell you why. I mean, what would that do to your parents if Bob did something like that?
[1:57:02] Well, they would just stop with what they were saying, and they would respect it.
[1:57:10] I massively doubt that. I'm sorry to do this again. I really am. I massively doubt that. If your mother welcomed male assertiveness, she wouldn't have married and dominated your father.
[1:57:23] Yeah well i think that they like it i would be sitting at home they would be like no they don't know what they're doing but now when we are uh not living at home anymore they are just like okay yeah whatever you say let's have a good relationship um so i guess it depends no but But part.
[1:57:46] Of assertiveness is not letting go, right? So if you say, I wish Bob was more assertive, and I say, I don't believe you, and then you say, oh, forget it, drop the topic, let's just continue the conversation, I would say, no, you don't get to tell me what I do and don't talk about in a conversation. I don't get to tell you either. We have a conversation, which means not policing what the other person says. So, Bob, give me an example of when you saw Jane's mother treat her in a negative way.
[1:58:25] One time when we were leaving their house, she was very pushy towards Jane to take some food, and she wouldn't take no for an answer, and that caused Jane very frustrated.
[1:58:45] Okay, and what did you have an urge to say to your mother-in-law? No, she said no, please. Respect my wife's wishes. She's very clearly said, no, we don't want the food. We appreciate the offer, but it's a no.
[1:59:01] So at the time, I vividly remembered it because I kind of disappointed myself in this, how I reacted.
[1:59:13] Yeah, listen, and I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm not blaming you. I mean, this is how you were raised. Your father modeled. A million times, your father modeled. Okay, honey, okay. So I sympathize with that, but you didn't stand up for your wife in that context, right?
[1:59:33] Yeah, I also agree with you that I'm not that decisive because of my parents, but I also want to be more decisive. So in that situation, I should have said, like, stop it or drop it.
[1:59:50] Well except that except that i mean this is the challenge right except that jane chose you because you wouldn't.
[1:59:59] Yeah but i still have.
[2:00:00] No no hang on hang on but jane chose you jane chose you because you wouldn't do that so if you were the kind of guy who would do that jane wouldn't have chosen you so you wouldn't be in that situation you see what i mean yeah.
[2:00:17] But that's on on the conscious, right?
[2:00:20] No, no, no. So, let me give you the analogy. Sorry to interrupt. Let me give the analogy back. So, if I'm... Let's pretend we're in the animated cars universe or something. So, if I'm a sports car, and somebody comes in and wants a minivan, do they choose me?
[2:00:41] If they want a sports car, then yeah.
[2:00:43] No, no. If they want a minivan, and I'm a sports car, do they choose me?
[2:00:48] If they want a minivan, Right.
[2:00:50] So if they want a sports car, they will choose me because I'm a sports car, right? Hang on, hang on, hang on. Let me finish this. So if I'm a sports car, somebody comes in to the dealership and they want a sports car. If I'm a sports car, they will choose me, right?
[2:01:09] Yeah.
[2:01:10] Now, does it make any sense for me to say, when I get home and I've been driven around for two and a half years to say, I wish I was a minivan. Well, no, because if you were a minivan, you wouldn't have been picked or chosen. You wouldn't be there. You wouldn't be driven around by that guy because he wants a sports car. So there's no point saying, I wish I was a minivan. And there's also no point for the guy who chose a sports car to say, I wish the sports car was a minivan. And that's why I was pushing back against Jane saying, I wish that Bob was more assertive. Because if he had been assertive, you would have found him annoying in the same way that you found me annoying when I was assertive, right?
[2:02:04] I would say I also believe Jane in a way that this 50-50 also negatively influences her. And this is one of the reasons why she wants me to decide.
[2:02:19] But no no but she's she's she's making it impossible to decide and sorry to be you know be blunt but so when you say to someone i want you to be decisive about a 50 50 decision, you realize that's impossible right i mean mathematically it's impossible you can't be decisive about a 50 50 decision yeah.
[2:02:44] But you can still decide.
[2:02:46] But you can't be decisive passive. And you can't decide other than arbitrarily, randomly. You might as well just flip a coin. Now, do you guys want to make a decision about the entire future of your relationship and possibly your life and your lineage based upon a coin flip?
[2:03:08] No.
[2:03:09] So, the reason that you're avoiding information is you want to avoid the decision. And you're both avoiding the information. And Jane, I would put this a little bit more on you because it's your issue and you know the most about this ailment, right? So you are avoiding information that would give Bob the chance to make a decision. And then you're complaining that he's indecisive. And you're saying to Bob, I want you to be decisive about 50-50. Okay. But he can't. Because if it becomes 70-30 having children, then you are obligated to have children, or at least pursue that, right? If it is 70-30, I don't want children, then if he wants children, he'll probably date someone else, right? So putting it on 50-50 is kind of paralyzing him. Now, the only reason you're able to do that is he grew up with a father who was a simp or a cuck or whatever you want to call it. Somebody who just like, well, whatever my happy wife, happy life, whatever my wife wants, you know. And so that's, I think that's where the paralysis is, if that makes sense.
[2:04:31] Well, yeah, sure.
[2:04:32] And then you took him to a therapist and what did the therapist say? Bob, you're completely at fault if you loved him.
[2:04:41] "'Your partner, you wouldn't ask for children?'.
[2:04:50] Because if you had gone to someone who might have a more even-handed approach, like, understand, I'm not saying either of you were wrong or bad or anything like that. I'm just looking at the machinery or the mechanics of the conflict, if that makes sense.
[2:05:10] So, I think that the challenge is not about the kids or not, and it's not fundamentally about whether you get the right numbers from the geneticists or anything like that. I think that the fundamental issue is honesty and directness in what you need and what. So to be assertive on the part of Bob would be, don't give me 50-50. Nothing in life is 50-50. That's not possible. That's an unconscious manipulation to have Bob not make the decision. And so if I were to look at this, and I don't know if this is true, but if I were to look at this at a purely mechanical way, in a purely transactional way, I would say something like this, that Jane, you want to be with Bob, but you're terrified to have children, which I completely sympathize. Hey, Bob seems great. And children is scary for this. I mean, they're scary sometimes as a whole, but particularly with these genetic issues. So you want to be with bob and you're terrified of having children so what is the best way to get what you want well the best way to get what you want is to have bob not make a decision.
[2:06:28] Because then you avoid either losing Bob or having children.
[2:06:34] And so you chose a guy who wasn't going to be assertive and fight relatively hard for what he wants and needs. You chose him for that. And then maybe you kind of blame him for it, which is not particularly nice. But I think that just comes from a lack of self-knowledge, which, again, I sympathize with and understand. This is all, I guess, fairly advanced stuff. So I think that you are avoiding either the anxiety of losing Bob, which might be it for you marrying a quality guy, maybe. It could be your fear. Or deciding to have children, which is also very scary for reasons, again, I completely understand and sympathize with. But I think that you are keeping things undecided in the hopes that Bob will continue on with you until he's so pair bonded or you can't have children anymore and then you just stay together. And I think that way you avoid the data that would help him make a better decision. And I think, Bob, because you're used to deferring to women, you're going along with that rather than saying, no, I need to be responsible to my balls. I need to be responsible to my sperm, my reproduction. I need to get the facts so that I can make an informed decision. But instead, Jane is, sorry, there aren't any other she's in the conversation, but Jane is avoiding this information in the hopes of continuing with the relationship without.
[2:08:04] You making a clear decision and you're following along with that rather than be assertive because that's what you saw your father do with your mother. Does that make sense?
[2:08:15] For me or for Jane?
[2:08:17] Well, I mean, there's three of us here, so let's say both of you.
[2:08:22] Yeah, for me it makes sense. But I always have in my mind that it's not just what your parents did and then you just clone them, but that you can also make decisions on your own. And in this sense, i think i should be i i should be better in the sense that um like ask for these tests or anything.
[2:08:51] Well listen and i'm sorry to interrupt and we'll stop in a second or two here but so i would say again it's just my opinion for whatever it's worth it's not about the tests it's about the more fundamental underlying mechanics of it which is that uh jane you're used to the women running things so you chose a guy who's compliant and there's nothing wrong with that i mean but but it is what it is right and you also have to if you chose a guy who's compliant then when he starts to become more assertive you're quite likely to punish him in in the same way in a small way you got kind of cold towards me when i was assertive right.
[2:09:34] So you can't say, I want a guy who's assertive and then punish him when he starts to become assertive. And I imagine that that's what would happen. And again, that's just, I think, something that wasn't a connection for you before. So now you're responsible, but before it was just, and so I don't think fundamentally it's about getting the data about kids. I mean, I would certainly do that, but I think it's, you know, time to have a good conversation about why are you with each other? And look, there's lots of good things about why you're with each other, but the bad things are because you're both used to the woman being in charge.
[2:10:09] And if you're so used to that and you're unconscious of that, then you will punish Bob for being more assertive or you will withdraw or you'll be cold or you'll give him negative signals for being when he's more assertive. And that is going to drive his love away because that's too much like his mom. That's too much like his parents and a woman cannot act too much i mean i don't know females are females so there's it's a it's a spread but a woman can't i mean bob you were punished for being assertive when you were a kid largely by your mother and if there's any whiff of that in your current relationship it will cause great harm and uh and so on and also for bob complying with jane because you want to be nice or not cause trouble or you know love her more or whatever that's not that's not good either because that's being like her father to her because her father didn't say much to her mother, in terms of being assertive and so if you guys if there are echoes of each other's.
[2:11:14] Parents in the relationship it generally does not go well so i think that's the i mean that's the conversation i would have but that's of course just my opinion, Yeah.
[2:11:25] I see your body, and it makes sense. Can I ask, I know you have to go, but can I just ask, since I have this knowledge about me and my upbringing, and I want to be more assertive as a man, would I just try to be more of that?
[2:11:51] Well i mean it's you have to meet in the middle so you have to be more assertive and jane you have to not get all kinds of cold and distant when he's assertive like the way you did with me right so so you have to work to welcome his assertiveness and he has to work to be more assertive and you have to talk about all the stuff that is in the way of that that comes from your childhood if that makes sense.
[2:12:13] So to talk about it and explore the...
[2:12:18] Right. And so relationships are all about agreements, right? So if the agreement is, Bob, you're going to be more assertive, right? Okay. So that's the agreement, right? So then you say, okay, so if you chose me for being not assertive and now I'm going to be more assertive, it's going to bother you. So what do we do, Jane, when it bothers you? Well, you can say, well, I know we wanted you to be more assertive, but this is really bothering me. And then you have a conversation about that, but you don't just act it out and punish him or withdraw or get cold or something like that.
[2:12:46] But you have an agreement, right? So knowing that, Bob, if you try to be more assertive or when you are more assertive, it's going to bother Jane at times, not always, but it's going to bother Jane at times. And she's going to want to punish you because that's what she saw her mother doing. And that's what you, Bob, saw your mother doing when the males were more assertive. And so you just have to have an agreement and say, okay, well, so knowing that when I'm more assertive, you're going to try to punish me unconsciously or whatever, then don't do that. Or if I, if I catch you when I say, well, I was more assertive and now you're kind of cold to me, that's kind of punishing me, which we were going to try and avoid. And just have, so you just have to have agreements knowing that it's going to cause problems when you become more assertive, how are you going to deal with those problems? Well, you're not going to deal with them by being cold or storming out or, or, um, slamming cupboard doors. I'm not saying you'd do any of that, but whatever might be the sort of punishment or the negative and just say, well, I'm not, If you're going to be more assertive, Bob, I'm not going to punish you for it. Or if I am punishing you for it automatically, you're going to call me out on it and I'm going to try and work on that. Does that make sense?
[2:13:49] Yeah, it just makes sense. Thanks.
[2:13:51] Good, good. All right. All right. Well, listen, guys, I hope it was useful chat. I really appreciate your time and your openness. This is not a small issue. Neither is it an issue that you guys alone are dealing with. A lot of people are dealing with these kinds of issues. So I really do appreciate your honesty and directness, and I really thank you for your time.
[2:14:09] And I really thank you for your time and 1 hour 15 that we went over your time.
[2:14:16] No sweat. Listen, and just keep me posted. Even if we never talk again, just drop me a line or something. Let me know how things are going. All right.
[2:14:24] Okay.
[2:14:24] Thanks, guys. All the best.
[2:14:26] Thank you.
[2:14:26] Bye-bye.
[2:14:26] Thank you. All the best. Bye-bye.
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