[NOT REAL NAMES]
I was in the parking lot of the Catholic church near my home that I used to attend up until I was in high school. I saw Jeff from my high school and said hello to him and then pointed to my son who was walking down the street, and I said to Jeff, “Kids can walk – and don’t need to be driven everywhere by their parents.” Both Jeff and I laughed.
The church is right next to a big pond and I looked out at the pond and saw how breathtakingly beautiful the view of the pond was, with the bright sun in the clear blue sky – just like it was when I was a child.
I walked down the grassy incline to the edge of the pond and noticed something lying in the water, so near to the edge that I could see it very clearly. It looked like 2 dead bodies, one adult and one child, wearing very brightly colored clothes lying very still in the shallow water. At first, I thought it must have been an illusion.
Just then, I saw another guy from my hometown, who is a close friend of my younger brother, walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and child. I said, “Hi Tom” – but he didn’t react at all and just kept walking towards me. He continued walking towards me and when he was right near me, I called his name again. He still didn’t react at all and just walked by me with a blank look on his face. Just after he passed me by I told him my name, and then he turned back around and said hello to me – and then we started talking.
Then I started talking off my socks and shoes to get in the water, and he asked me why I’m doing that as it was cold outside – too cold of a day to go in the water. I pointed to the 2 bodies lying under the water and told Tom that I wanted to confirm if they are real.
There was a kid’s plastic pail and shovel on the ground, and I picked up the little shovel and waded into the water up to my knees. I looked down into the water and now could only see the child’s body lying on the ground under the shallow water. I reached down and held the child’s little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand I could see that her arm was buried under the sand. I started digging with the little plastic shovel but couldn’t extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater that was stuck/buried in the sand.
I realized that I couldn’t pick up the child’s body and place it on the shore by myself, so I turned back to Tom, who was still standing there by the side of the pond, and asked him to call 911 to get some help. That was the end of my dream.
Philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages in an in-depth dialogue with a caller who shares a vivid and emotional dream that seems to evoke the complexities of his childhood and family dynamics. The caller starts by recounting a dream set in a familiar parking lot beside a Catholic church he used to attend in his youth. This seemingly serene backdrop quickly transforms when he notices two bodies—an adult and a child—floating in the nearby pond, prompting a journey into the realms of memory, trauma, and familial relationships.
As the caller elaborates on the dream, Stefan guides him through a meticulous exploration of the symbols and feelings embedded in his subconscious mind. The adult and child, clad in bright colors but lying lifeless beneath the water's surface, come to represent the remnants of unresolved issues with his own parents, particularly regarding their disconnection from the church and the lessons that were never learned. The dream reflects a deep-seated conflict; the caller grapples with childhood memories of walking to church alone—an experience colored by feelings of isolation and abandonment, especially in stark contrast to other children who attended with their families.
Stefan adeptly connects the dream to the caller’s familial dynamics, probing the parental figures who shaped his understanding of religion and morality. The conversation reveals how the caller's father, while not entirely absent, instilled a sense of detachment, often leaving the child's innocent inquiries unanswered. The mother, though more playful, reacted with emotional volatility that complicates the narrative, showcasing a blend of love and manipulation. This duality becomes pivotal as the pair uncovers themes of favoritism and neglect that resonate through generations.
Amidst the discussion, Molyneux encourages the caller to confront the emotional burden placed upon him—one that seems to echo throughout his current relationships, especially in relation to his wife and children. The tension between duty and desire is palpable and encapsulated by the son who is present in the dream yet fades into the background, drawing parallels between the father's own experiences of feeling neglected and the fears of being unable to provide a good example for the next generation.
As the episode progresses, Stefan’s Socratic method draws out deeper realizations, particularly about the influence of the caller's upbringing on his own parenting style. Molyneux challenges the caller to reflect on how the generational patterns of avoidance, emotional repression, and manipulation have perhaps foreshadowed the dynamics he now observes with his own children.
By the end of the conversation, profound insights emerge, with the caller expressing gratitude for the clarity brought to his dream's symbolism and the familial legacy it represents. Stefan emphasizes the importance of honesty and directness in relationships, leaving the listener with a poignant reminder of the complexities that arise when navigating familial expectations, personal identity, and the emotions wrapped tightly in shared histories. This episode serves not only as a personal exploration for the caller but as a broader reflection on the intricacies of human connections and the paths toward understanding oneself in relation to others.
0:05 - Dreaming of the Past
38:34 - Reflecting on Loss
48:14 - Bodies in the Water
51:37 - Questioning Authority
54:28 - Childhood Trauma
58:05 - The Illusion of Reality
59:35 - Maternal Volatility
1:08:23 - Confronting the Past
1:29:01 - Seeking Wisdom
1:33:03 - The Power Dynamics
1:38:48 - Navigating Male-Female Relationships
1:49:39 - Lessons Learned
[0:00] Excellent. Thanks again, Stef, for your time. I wanted to start by reading my dream, the summary.
[0:06] I was in the parking lot of the Catholic Church near my home that I used to attend up until I was in high school. I saw Jeff from my high school walking there in the parking lot and said hello to him and then pointed out that my son was walking down the street. I turned and said to Jeff, kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents. And then Jeff and I both laughed with each other.
[0:34] Then I noticed that the church is right next to a big pond. And I looked out and saw the pond and how breathtakingly beautiful it was. The view, the sunlight coming in, the bright sunshine, clear blue sky, just like I remembered it when I was a child. I walked down the grassy incline from the parking lot to the edge of the pond and noticed something lying in the water, so near the edge of the water that I could see it very clearly. It looked like two dead bodies, one adult and one child. The child, or they both were wearing very brightly colored clothes, lying very still in the shallow water. At first, I thought it must have been an illusion. Just then, as I was standing on the edge of the water, I saw another guy from my hometown, who was a close friend of my younger brother, walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and his child. I said, hi, Tom, but he did not react at all and just kept walking towards me. He continued walking towards me, and when he was right near me, I called his name again. He still did not react at all and just walked by me with a blank look on his face. Just after he passed me by, I called him by his name again, and then he turned back around and said hello to me, and then we started talking.
[1:56] After that, I started taking off my socks and shoes to wade into the water. And Tom asked me why I was doing that, because it was pretty cold outside, too cold of a day to go in the water. I pointed to the two bodies lying under the water and told Tom that I wanted to confirm that they are real.
[2:16] It was a kid's plastic pail and a shovel on the ground, and I picked up the little shovel and waded into the water about up to my knees. I looked down into the water and now could only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water. I reached down and held the little child's hand. As I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand. I started digging with that little plastic shovel, but I couldn't extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater, and that sweater was stuck, kind of buried in the sand. Since I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself, I turned back to Tom, who was standing there by the side of the pond still, and asked him to call 911 for help. And that was the end of my dream. yeah all right and sorry just for those who've.
[3:10] Been listening uh this is not the real names uh and uh yeah so tell me you you'd also written down some thoughts about the dream so yeah.
[3:17] So after i had written that out i noticed the first part of the dream where i said you know kids can walk and don't you be driven everywhere by their parents and that's when i laughed with the jeff there um thinking back to my youth our family home was actually about a 20 minute walk from the church. And each Sunday, my siblings and I made the journey on foot because attendance was not optional by our parents. They forced us to go, even though they didn't go to church themselves, but they made us go every Sunday.
[3:47] And sorry, just tell me about why your parents didn't go to church?
[3:51] Well, they would hang out and sleep in. They'd go out on Saturday night, go out with their friends, and then sleep in.
[3:58] No, no, I get that. But sorry, why would you have to go to church, but your parents didn't go?
[4:03] They wouldn't entertain any questions. We asked them a few times. They said, you know, we've gone to church enough as we were kids and adults. When we were little, they had to drive us. They said they don't need to go anymore.
[4:17] Okay, got it.
[4:18] It was kind of a resident answer, but it wasn't really we're allowed to question when we get in trouble.
[4:25] And were they still Christians or religious when they were older?
[4:29] Not really, no, no.
[4:32] What do you mean?
[4:32] Not even. Not even, my mother might go, you know, Christmas Catholic, as I would say, maybe once a year at Christmas. But when, after my father died, my mother with her friends started going maybe when she was in her 70s. I think it was more of a social thing.
[4:50] And did they pray or did you say grace or was there any sort of religious stuff during the week? So they were essentially agnostics or atheists, or maybe agnostics is probably closer.
[5:04] Right, I'm practicing.
[5:06] Okay, got it.
[5:08] So their absence from church, you know, kids were there by ourselves, made us feel really lonely and really not part of the church community, especially when I noticed, you know, other children sitting with their families during the church services. That solitude often left me questioning the significance of going to church at all. What was the purpose? since it was clear my parents, my own parents, didn't consider it important enough for them to attend themselves. So that was one thought I had. Second thought was, yeah, obviously these two dead bodies in the pond at the edge of the water. Over the past decades, I've only ever returned to my old church for funerals for family and friends from my town. And just two weeks ago, I was there to say goodbye to my mother's best friend. She was the last of my mother's close circle to pass away. So that was kind of like the last time I'd be going there.
[6:00] Your father's dead, but your mother's still alive. Is that right?
[6:02] No, no. My mother passed away as well.
[6:04] And when did she die?
[6:06] About four or five years ago.
[6:08] And your father?
[6:11] About over 20 years ago.
[6:13] Okay, got it. Sorry, go ahead.
[6:16] So standing in that familiar place, I realized it might be the final time I ever set foot in a church. And, you know, perhaps obviously my subconscious is kind of nudging me to reflect on what those early experiences in the Catholic Church meant and throughout my childhood and what they're meant to teach me now. So that was the second thought. And then the third thought I had was just about the church itself. You can see, I sent a little photo to you, but there's a parking lot and small grassy area leading down to the pond. When I was a kid, there were zero trees at all and the grass was always mown. So you could just walk right from the parking lot right down to the pond. It was fantastic. Hang out on the edge of the water and see, you know, the beautiful scenery.
[7:01] And when I attended church from elementary school up through high school it was a really quiet place to kind of relax afterwards.
[7:11] Basically hang out, reflect however on weekends there were often crowds of high schoolers hanging out there making noise drinking, partying by the pond so obviously the church was not up for that so after a few years having to deal with these quote unquote troublemakers the church basically let the grass go wild and also grow wild and also had the trees kind of sprouted all along the edge of the water. So really kind of the view was quite blocked out as well as you really couldn't walk down from the parking lot down to the church anymore. So really it was turning that once accessible area by the pond into an overgrown barrier. And I remember thinking back to my siblings and I used to skip church services and just hang out at the pond, which was, you know, welcome, common retreat from the cold unfriendly environment in the church that was unfriendly because again we weren't there with our parents and people would look at us as scans and you know sometimes we were misbehaving and people would say you know we're interrupting them while they're trying to attend church services or pray um by allowing the area to become inaccessible the church feels now it's kind of less inviting to those kind of seeking refuge people like the younger me perhaps lost and searching so you know in thinking this through it seems like uh this choice of the church seems to stray from jesus's message of compassion hope and inclusion closing the door on those who need it most right that was my third third thought uh thought there of the dream and.
[8:40] When did you have the dream.
[8:41] Uh two weeks ago and.
[8:45] Sorry how close was that relative to you going to the funeral for your mother's friend.
[8:49] About a week or a week and a half afterwards okay maybe two weeks yeah and.
[8:56] Was there anything that happened that was memorable the day before or sorry the day of the night of the dream like if it's monday night monday.
[9:05] Um, not that I can recall, no.
[9:10] And where's your level of, I assume your level of faith has maintained itself? Or improved?
[9:17] I don't really go to church myself, no. I just go for the church.
[9:21] Okay, you don't go to church? And what's your relationship to Christianity?
[9:26] And yes, so after, I mean, my wife is not Christian, and we don't bring the kids up into Christian. I mean, we do have...
[9:32] Sorry, your wife is now or not?
[9:33] Is not Christian.
[9:34] Not for them. Okay.
[9:35] No.
[9:36] And is she a mother of religion, or is she atheist or agnostic?
[9:40] Kind of agnostic, yeah.
[9:42] Okay. And that's been the case the whole time you've known her, is that right?
[9:45] Yes. Okay.
[9:46] So that is your wife, and what has been your sort of, I guess, history with religion, and where are you now?
[9:56] So it's kind of like not having a church in society. I've seen it. It's kind of like a pillar has been taken up. So I'm... in terms of teaching morals to kids and things of that sort, we didn't really have that. They didn't go to church services or the Sunday school or any of that.
[10:13] So when you say we didn't really have that, so you're talking about the pillar being taken out in terms of teaching morality. When you say we didn't have that, you mean as a kid, the church didn't teach you morality?
[10:24] They did. We did in Sunday schools, yes.
[10:27] Okay, so you had that moral instruction when you were a kid?
[10:32] Yes.
[10:33] Okay, got it. And did you accept or believe the moral instruction?
[10:40] Well, Sunday school teachers can be pretty mean, so it really wasn't, it didn't hit home as much as I think it probably should have if we didn't like the people who are our teachers.
[10:52] Yeah, because you said it was cold, right? Cold and mean in the church.
[10:56] Right, in the church, yeah.
[10:58] So it wasn't charismatic or anything like that. So what was your sense of the church, its teachings, and why did you experience them as cults?
[11:10] Well, it's also, it was cold because, again, it wasn't the family together. When the family was, when I was real little, we would go together. But then when we were able to get into elementary school, my parents just said, okay, forget it. They stopped going and said, you all can walk. So that's kind of what we did. And then it was, we're kind of like on our own. We go there. We didn't really want to be there. We would sit in the back as much as possible. And then sometimes the ushers would poke us and say, hey, go up and sit. You're sitting away from everyone. Why don't you move up closer to the altar and things like that? So it was always like we just kind of have to suffer through it every hour until we got the idea that we could just skip and just hang out at the pond and just come back and tell my parents that we went to church when we really didn't.
[11:55] And I guess it wasn't kid friendly or what was the sort of, you know, American churches that I've been to? You know, there's music. There's usually a pretty charismatic preacher who makes it kind of fun and engaging. But it wasn't anything like that. Is that right?
[12:09] Uh no that's more in the protestant style not in the catholic style right all pretty serious yeah okay.
[12:15] And were there any other kids around that you knew or.
[12:19] Oh yeah yeah all the kids i went to school with they were there with their parents.
[12:23] Oh okay so because they were there with their parents did their parents ever ask you where your parents were.
[12:26] No did the priest or anyone ever.
[12:31] Ask where your parents were.
[12:33] I know and.
[12:35] What age were you when you started going uh on your own and also just give me the ages of your siblings.
[12:39] Uh we all started let's see started going my own probably around nine years old ten years old yeah ten years old yeah and.
[12:51] The ages of your siblings.
[12:52] Uh yeah so about the same uh eight and twelve okay.
[12:58] Got it got it okay it's a bit i mean it's odd i've not really heard of this before that the parents send the kids off walking to school at sort of eight between the ages of eight and 12 as a whole uh that's quite unusual did the priest ever come to your parents house or your house.
[13:17] Oh no no no.
[13:19] Okay and how long would you say that you guys went before you just went to hang out at the pool at the pond sorry.
[13:28] At the pond uh well i would say probably when getting into high school and then once my older sibling got a license car license then it was like okay let's just go down to the coffee shop and hang out pretend that we didn't even you know go to church we just left for an hour and came back and uh it's it's sorry good it was like you know in russia you'd say you know they pretend to work and you the communists pretend to pay you it's like we pretend to go to go to church and my parents pretended that they didn't notice that we were skipping.
[14:02] And, I mean, did your parents ever indicate that they did know you were skipping?
[14:06] Once in a while.
[14:08] And what would they say?
[14:13] My mother kind of chuckled a little bit.
[14:18] And did you ever have a conversation about this with your parents?
[14:22] Oh, we did before. Well, why do we have to go?
[14:24] No, no, no.
[14:24] Sorry, after you started skipping and so on. Well, actually, my younger sibling just stopped going after he got his license. And so he never actually went through confirmation, which we have uh when you're basically about uh 17 16 17 years old so he never got confirmed but myself and my other sibling did so i'm kind of going through the motions.
[14:52] Yeah so did you ever talk to your parents before they like over the course of their life before they died about not going uh no okay and did your parents have an age difference is that why your dad died younger, or he just had bad luck?
[15:10] I know they're about the same age.
[15:12] Okay. And what did your father die of?
[15:16] Partially from smoking cigarettes and alcohol.
[15:20] Were they drinkers, like hard drinkers?
[15:23] My father was, yes.
[15:25] And your mother now, right?
[15:27] Not so much.
[15:30] And how happy would you say their marriage was?
[15:37] Um it was okay we stayed together at the end obviously with my mother's drinking after retirement that it got worse so that that was a real rough patch but he didn't last too long after retirement okay.
[15:51] Got it okay and with regards to your own life are you in your 40s 50s 50s okay and what happened with your own family life if anything.
[16:09] I mean, myself, my wife, and my kids.
[16:11] Uh-huh.
[16:12] In terms of church services?
[16:14] Well, I mean, how many kids do you have?
[16:17] Two.
[16:18] Two kids, okay. And how old? Don't do it. Are they in their teens or 20s?
[16:25] Early 20s.
[16:26] Early 20s, okay. So you have two kids. And what was your, I guess, no particular relationship with religion with your kids, right?
[16:34] No. I mean, we celebrated the holidays, like Christmas giving presents and things like that, but not from a religious sense now.
[16:40] And what was your kid's relationship with your parents? I guess not much if your dad died 20 years ago.
[16:46] But your mom? Yeah, they were with her for a good 15 years or so. And we see her from time to time.
[16:59] Did you live far or closer?
[17:03] Yeah, we lived about 45 minutes away, an hour away.
[17:06] And how often would your mother hang out with your kids and your family?
[17:13] Maybe once a month, go down and have lunch or something.
[17:16] God, why so little?
[17:21] Well, they had activities, and my other siblings would hang out with her as well.
[17:25] Oh, come on. She was retired. Come on, man. Unless she's an Olympian, she's got time.
[17:37] Right right well yeah that's true well she also did get sick for the past like five last five years of her life so prior to that the last five years was just myself going to the you know the, nursing home for the most part but prior to that yeah she would go to their games once in a while we take her to the games once you see.
[18:01] Her grandkids so little other than that she was a boomer and I kind of like that, but I'm just curious.
[18:11] She actually wasn't a boomer. She was a little older than me. From the silent generation. Just spent time with others. She had a busy schedule. She'd go traveling.
[18:23] Oh, come on. Come on, man. It's a matter of priorities, right?
[18:27] Right, right.
[18:28] Okay, let me ask it another way. Why was your kid so low priority for her? like one lunch every month that's sad.
[18:39] Yeah maybe maybe maybe once or twice maybe twice again we live a little farther away but if you don't want to talk about this just tell me.
[18:47] Because it's kind of.
[18:48] Boring playing.
[18:49] Whack-a-mole with your.
[18:50] Avoidance here, sorry.
[18:57] I mean, she's 45 minutes away. She's got grandkids.
[19:00] Right. Yeah, she hung out with the other grandkids. She took care of two grandkids two or three days a week who lived close by. So she was also, you know, that was really tiring for her.
[19:14] So why were the other kids so much higher priority than your kids? I'm not trying to cause trouble. I'm just genuinely curious.
[19:21] Yeah. I think because they were born first, a little older.
[19:26] Really?
[19:27] Basically, it was like.
[19:28] That's it? Just the time glitch? That's it?
[19:32] Well, favor the older children, I guess. Yeah.
[19:35] I mean, that's really unfair, isn't it?
[19:38] Yes, it is.
[19:39] I mean, she's with them two or three days a week, and you get once or twice a month.
[19:45] Right.
[19:46] Did that, I mean, did you like your mother?
[19:51] Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was, you know, we did ask, but she said it was, you know, our kids plus their kids would be too much for her to handle it'd be you know more kids as opposed to two so she said only only in emergencies.
[20:02] Sorry hang on uh so you said can you spend more time with our kids and she said on.
[20:08] The weekday right.
[20:09] And she said well i don't care weekday weekend who cares right um and when you're retired everything's a weekend um so right you said can you spend more time with our kids and she said not unless it's an emergency because the other kids are more important or higher priority or something.
[20:30] Or she had already been babysitting for them for a year or so.
[20:35] No, but that's circular, right? So why was, I mean, was there an emergency in that family? Was somebody sick? Why was it, I mean, did she have to babysit? I mean, what was...
[20:44] Both parents, both parents worked. So they would go to daycare in like two days and then two days a week she would, or three days a week she would babysit them.
[20:53] Okay. So your wife stayed home, is that right?
[20:59] No. She worked part-time.
[21:02] Okay.
[21:03] Yeah, sometimes.
[21:04] Okay, so because your siblings, the two parents, right, your sibling and the spouse, they both worked full-time, so your mother got kind of dragged into taking care of those kids, but then she had nothing left over for your kids because your wife worked part-time.
[21:24] Exactly.
[21:25] I mean, what do you think of that?
[21:29] Yeah, it was frustrating. Yeah, I did feel like we were kind of like second-class citizens at that time.
[21:37] Second-class? I mean, I don't know. We're way down on the list, right? They get two to three days a week, and you get only in emergencies.
[21:49] Right. Exactly.
[21:54] And sorry, were you in the birth order? Middle. So did you talk to your mother about this, or did you talk to your siblings about this and say, you know, maybe we can find a way to even this out a bit? I mean, you and your wife could have used some time off too, I'm sure, right? Having somebody over with your kids if they were close and getting along and so on.
[22:16] Exactly.
[22:18] So, did you talk about this with your family at all?
[22:22] No. It was a sore point, so we didn't talk about it.
[22:27] Um...
[22:31] Looking back, yes, I should have brought that up.
[22:33] At the sore point, that's what you talk about. You don't go to the doctor with a pain in your elbow and say, well, I don't want to talk about the pain in my elbow because it's painful. That's what you're going for, right?
[22:42] Exactly.
[22:44] Did your family have a habit of avoiding this kind of honesty and reasonable requests?
[22:50] Yes, definitely. Yes.
[22:52] And this is shared with your siblings too?
[22:55] Yes. was it.
[22:57] Your older or younger sibling where your mother was taking care of the kids.
[23:03] Older her favorite.
[23:07] Oh dear do you think that they were exploiting your mother.
[23:13] Yes when it became clear that she was older and she was like I saw her once at the end of the day she was completely exhausted she was in her 70s or whatever cycle you know two young kids running around. It's a lot of energy, so it was very difficult for her.
[23:30] Right. And I guess that obviously stopped before she got sick because they got older. Is that right?
[23:38] Yes, exactly.
[23:40] Okay, so did you ever talk to your brother and say, come on, man, you're running mom ragged. It's not reasonable.
[23:52] No, I didn't. I didn't have a lot of communication with him.
[23:58] Well, but, I mean, it's bad for your mom, right?
[24:02] Right, right.
[24:03] I mean, you could call him, right? I mean, he wouldn't hang up on you, would he?
[24:06] Yeah. I don't think he would have hung up. I'm sure there would have been an argument.
[24:15] Okay, and… He's narcissistic.
[24:16] Pretty selfish, I would say.
[24:17] Oh, he's narcissistic in your view?
[24:20] Yes.
[24:22] Okay. so selfish people get their way and good people get ignored exactly got it just want to make sure that we were on the same page as far as as far as that goes okay, and uh a level of happiness with your own marriage.
[24:43] Oh yeah i'm pretty.
[24:45] Happy okay good good all right so i appreciate that that backstory let's have a look at the dream. Okay, I was in the parking lot of the Catholic Church near my home that he used to attend until I was in high school. I saw Jeff from my high school. Now, remind me a little bit about Jeff.
[25:03] Just some random person I had played sports with. I wasn't really friends with him. Just I had no idea why he showed up in the dream.
[25:11] How old was your son in the dream?
[25:16] Probably middle school. Maybe 12, 13, 14.
[25:20] So that's about the time that your elders started going to the church. And you guys went too, without your parents, is that right?
[25:31] Right, right, yeah.
[25:34] So, and this was your actual son, it wasn't like a made-up son?
[25:38] Correct.
[25:39] Okay, so you appointed my son who was walking down the street. So was your son not with you?
[25:47] No apparently not.
[25:49] Was he ahead or behind uh.
[25:52] Just to the size i was in the parking lot and he was just walking down the street walking past the parking lot.
[25:57] Was he further away from the church, yes okay so you turn to jeff say kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents so that is a statement of self-sufficiency right and this is what your parents said your parents said we don't need to drive you anymore you can go on your own you don't need us but you need, the church right right exactly now did they ever say why you needed the church.
[26:32] They did, why did they say, basically, they said they've learned all the lessons, so there's nothing new for them to learn, but we have to learn.
[26:41] And at that time, did you want to be like your father?
[26:50] Did I want to be like my father? at the beginning yes but I said he's kind of a silent generation so not really, didn't really have a lot of interaction with him like a personal thing would be like tell us to clean up or do things through that but didn't really have a lot of personal interaction with him he wouldn't like playing games with us very much and once in a while he would he'd watch TV with us once or they ball occasionally outside.
[27:23] Yeah, because what I'm thinking about is if I were to say to my daughter, you have to take piano. Let's say I'm an expert pianist, right? I say, you have to take piano lessons. And then she would say, well, why don't you have to take piano lessons, Dad? And I'd say, because I've already learned piano. Right, so if she did not respect my piano playing, this would make no sense to her, right? if i couldn't play chopsticks right right so if your parents say we've got everything we can get out of religion we've graduated then they should live very godly religious lives and they should be happy and they should be devoted to their community and they should have good personal habits and not be say addicts to cigarettes and alcohol and so on because they're saying we've graduated from church, so they should be very noble and admirable human beings right.
[28:24] Right, and also keep the Sabbath every week, which they didn't do, obviously. That's part of being it.
[28:28] Right? Right, so they're saying, well, you have to learn what we've already mastered. But when you looked at your parents, did you see people who had mastered virtue, happiness, health, and life?
[28:39] No, definitely not.
[28:42] So it's kind of bull, right?
[28:45] Right.
[28:45] Now, when you were a kid, did you think, and that would be a pretty advanced thought, right? But when you were a kid, did you think, well, hang on, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I mean, they're saying that they've learned everything they can from church, but their lives are a bit of a mess, right? My dad's an alcoholic and a smoker. He doesn't really spend much time with his kids. How were they in terms of getting along with each other? Or were they just kind of like roommates?
[29:10] They're okay with each other. They were okay. Yeah, they got along well with each other. Just the kids kind of kept it a distance. But I would also say that both of them came from a very religious family. both of them had priests and nuns as their siblings. So their aunts and uncles were priests and nuns. So kind of their generation and their siblings, most of them had stopped going to church.
[29:36] Got it. Okay. Okay. So they didn't say we don't believe anymore. They said we've outgrown it or we've learned everything we can.
[29:49] We've learned everything we can.
[29:50] So, how did that square with you as a kid that other people's parents were there, and I'm sure other people's grandparents were there, so how did it square with you as a kid that your parents said, we've learned everything we can, but there were people way older than your parents still going to church to learn things?
[30:07] I didn't square very well at all. I was kind of a hypocrite, you know.
[30:11] So, you didn't believe them when they said we've outgrown a church?
[30:15] No because also you know the sunday school the parents would be teaching my friend's parents would be teaching my classmates parents would be teaching the sunday school so um that was also you know they're not just they're the services but they're also there you know teaching the kids did your parents go ahead yes so so i mean it was not just it was not only not attending church but But also, in terms of my friends' parents, it was them attending church with their kids, but also being the teachers of, you know, the Sunday school, the books.
[30:51] Got it.
[30:51] Right. So a lot more involvement.
[30:53] So even if your parents had graduated, did they teach you much about religion? No. Okay. And did they do good works in the community, charity, helping out in the neighborhood, soup kitchens, bringing food to people who were sick or old or visiting the shut-ins? or did they do any community charity stuff?
[31:14] Um, after my father died, my mother was a volunteer at the library in the hospital.
[31:20] Okay.
[31:21] That was in like in their 70s.
[31:22] Yeah, but not when they were teaching you all about religion.
[31:24] No, not when I was a kid. Okay.
[31:26] All right, so got it. Okay, so kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents. Both Jeff and I laughed. Okay, so the church is right next to a big pond. I looked out at the pond and saw how breathtakingly beautiful the view of the pond was. with the bright sun and the clear blue sky just like it was when I was a child. So that's interesting because that's a sort of paganism or naturalism. In other words, you're not looking at the church saying how beautiful the glory of God is. You're looking at nature, right? And saying that's where the beauty is. It's in the natural, not in religion. Because you didn't also, you didn't look at the pond and say, it's not a criticism, right? You didn't look at the pond and say, how beautiful are the works of God. And so you're standing with your back to the church looking at the pond and saying, oh, that's beautiful.
[32:26] Okay.
[32:27] So I walked down the grassy incline to the edge of the pond. Now, help me understand, the grassy incline, how overgrown was it relative to the church letting it overgrow to drive off the school kids, the high school kids?
[32:43] So in the dream it was just like when i was a kid so i could see everything so it wasn't overgrown at all it was perfectly mode okay.
[32:49] I noticed something lying in the water so near to the edge that i could see very clearly two dead bodies one adult and one child now uh how roughly how old was the child and roughly how old was the adult.
[33:03] The child was a toddler. And the adult, I'm not sure, maybe 40s or 30s.
[33:11] Okay, one adult and one child wearing very brightly colored clothes. Both of them, right? Yes. Like clown clothes or gesture clothes or something else?
[33:22] No, just like red. You could very clearly see it through the water. As opposed to like if it was brown, maybe, or light.
[33:31] It wasn't like multicolored. And it's interesting how you say lying very still. It's like, they're dead. Of course they're going to be lying still.
[33:44] But I didn't know they were dead at the time. Oh, actually, no.
[33:47] You said, oh, so you look like two dead bodies.
[33:49] It looked like dead. Yeah, yeah.
[33:51] Okay, I thought it might have been an illusion. Just then I saw another guy from my hometown who's a close friend of my younger brother walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and child. so the first guy Jeff was he older or younger than you or the same age, same age okay so another guy close friend of my younger brother walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and child I said hi Tom but he didn't react at all just kept walking towards me he continued walking towards me when he was right near me I called his name again, he still didn't react at all, okay do you have any idea what happened to these two guys from your high school did you ever find out about them.
[34:32] Um saw them on social media i mean one that this one we call tom here he's married his kids and the other one is i got some girlfriend no kids but i don't know really.
[34:43] So he's walking towards me i called his name again didn't react just walked by me with a blank look on his face, just after he passed me by i told him my name then he turned around and said hello to me then because it's interesting because you've got two dead bodies and this guy is treating you like you're a ghost, right?
[35:02] Right.
[35:03] So that's interesting. Okay. So I started talking, I started taking my socks and shoes. You don't remember what you talked about. You're just exchanging pleasantries or did you tell him about the bodies?
[35:16] No, no. I just, hey, you know, this is my name and by the way, maybe you just thought I was a stranger, didn't recognize me, it had been so long.
[35:24] Well, yeah you're an adult is that right or you're are you the age that you were when you was in middle school no no i was like your age in your 50s right okay okay i started taking off my socks and shoes to get in the water and he asked me why i'm doing that as it was cold outside too cold a day to go in the water i pointed to the two bodies lying under the water i wanted to confirm if they're real so are you trying to confirm if they're real or if they're alive i I think at this point, you know, they're dead, right? Well, they haven't moved, and they're underwater for a while, right? So they're dead.
[36:01] Isn't that fair? Yeah.
[36:03] Okay.
[36:04] Yes.
[36:05] There was a kid's plastic pail and shovel on the ground. I picked up the little shovel and waded into the water up to my knees. And what's the shovel for? Oh, to poke the bodies?
[36:17] Right, and also maybe dig it out in case.
[36:20] I look down.
[36:22] Okay, I look down at the water.
[36:24] And now could only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water. I reached down and held the child's little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand, oh, it's a female, right? Okay. Tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand. I started digging with a little plastic shovel, but couldn't extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater that was stuck or buried in the sand. I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself. So I turned back to Tom, who was standing there by the side of the road. Ask them to call 911 To get some help, Now that's interesting 911 not the police Because 911 would be an emergency But they're already dead right Right, Okay So I personally I thought that this was your Older and younger brother But it doesn't make sense if it's a female right Right Was there a girl that you were close to When you were growing up.
[37:23] Was her girl that I was close to like in the neighborhood or something not really.
[37:28] Yeah I mean or a cousin or, anything like that.
[37:35] Yeah yeah cousin I would say close.
[37:40] And tell me a little bit about her.
[37:44] Never got married, actually became very religious so maybe that has something to do with it.
[37:52] She became very religious it works for the church correct right okay and when did you last have a significant contact with her oh.
[38:03] From time to time yeah where you have um holidays and.
[38:06] No no like i mean in terms of like being friends close by seeing each other on a regular basis was it when you were kids or oh.
[38:12] Yes when kids yeah.
[38:14] Okay got it okay one adult and one child.
[38:23] Well, another thing I was thinking maybe is because I had been there for my mother's friend's funeral, but I also been to funerals of someone who was my age who died.
[38:35] And I went and saw his mother was there at the funeral. And I said, oh, I'm sorry for he lost his mother. So I was thinking that maybe could have been my mother's friend and also my friend. So that would be the parent of the child.
[38:47] I'm sorry. I missed that last bit. Your mother's friend and your friend.
[38:52] Right, right. So two separate funerals. Tell me about it again. Yeah, yeah.
[38:55] Two separate funerals, okay.
[38:56] Yeah, two separate funerals. So this funeral, this recent funeral was my mother's friend. And then I had gone to someone from my neighborhood and saw his mother there. And I said, very sorry for your loss. Obviously, it's very difficult. It's a lot more difficult to say, you know, the intended funeral of some of the parents are still alive. So I think maybe because it was the same church, I went to two funerals. One for my mother's friend and then one for, you know, someone from Mike I went to school with. It's my age Okay.
[39:24] So let me run something past you All this stuff is a hit and miss stuff, right? So if it doesn't fit, we'll try again Okay, so let me tell you what I think And you can tell me if it makes any sense Okay I think this is your mother and your father And I'll tell you why So your mother and your father, Said, you go to church We don't need to go and they are away from the church and they're embedded in the natural world, And by being away from the church and being embedded in the natural world, they're dead. They're not growing. They're not maturing. They're not honest. They're not direct. And you said your father's very, very distant, right?
[40:17] Yes. Yes.
[40:19] And you said that your father, I always sound like I'm like, but you said, like, I don't mean that. So you said your dad was sort of, you know, this sort of silent generation was very sort of old, mature, distant, you know, very authoritarian. Was it like hyper? Yeah. It sort of reminds me of like the guy who was my headmaster at boarding school, who was like, you know, like this god of distance and masculinity and stoicism, so to speak.
[40:45] Exactly. Yeah.
[40:47] And was your mother, was she more playful? Was she or was she also stern and distant in that way?
[40:53] She was more playful. She'd play, you know, board games and stuff with us. So definitely, she was the closer one to us.
[41:02] Okay. So two dead bodies, one adult and one child, brightly colored clothes. I am very still in the shallow water. So the brightly colored clothes, is that so that the bodies are visible from the reflection? Because it's hard to see things in a pond, right?
[41:18] Exactly. I think that's exactly why, so that I can see them. Yeah.
[41:23] Okay must be an illusion, So kids can walk They don't need to be driven everywhere By their parents So, This is like a break With your parents And this was like a literal break with your parents Because they're like you guys go to church We don't need to which was hypocritical And was not A valid argument, So the natural world is Beautiful, But it has Dead bodies in it, when you were a kid did you believe in or think about the existence of the soul.
[42:08] Yes yes because i was forced to go to church so yes.
[42:12] So you accepted that and you believed in it right yes yep now the soul to me is like a a very sort of spirited and animating principle of life. So when people say so-and-so is soulless, it means they're kind of just sort of trudging through life without any particular joy, without any particular enthusiasm, and without a lot of spontaneity and playfulness and liveliness. When people say so-and-so is soulless, that's sort of my associations. You may, of course, have different ones.
[42:50] I would agree with that, yes.
[42:53] Okay so if that is the case would you how much or would it be fair to describe your parents are somewhat soulless.
[43:03] I would say, yeah, I got to notice that more after they had retired, because they didn't have, especially my father, you know, work was gone, so there wasn't anything, he wasn't that close to the family, he wasn't close to religion, he didn't have a job, so he'd started drinking more, basically watching TV most of the time, so that was basically a soulless.
[43:24] Yeah, so that's definitely kind of soulless, right, like NPC stuff, right? Yeah. And what industry did you, or what area did your father work in?
[43:32] He was an engineer.
[43:35] An engineer. Okay. An engineer. And that is mechanical, right? Exactly. There's a certain amount of soullessness just in that, right?
[43:43] Right.
[43:44] I'm not saying like all engineers are soulless, but I mean in terms of like it being sort of mechanical, right?
[43:49] Yes. Yeah.
[43:50] Okay. So they are away from the church, don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents, uh driven of course has two meanings well at least two one is to be driven in a car the other is to be driven and enthusiastic right right right what was your father's level of drive and like you think of someone like elon musk who was like crazy drive and enthusiasm right right uh what was your father's level of drive and enthusiasm in.
[44:23] Terms of drive yes worked very hard at his work but also on the weekends, I always had a project to do something, whether it was fixing any of the mechanical stuff like the oven or the dishwasher or something like that, or outside. So it was always busy. But then again, once after retirement, it just like fell off a cliff. It was nothing.
[44:41] But was he enthusiastic?
[44:44] Enthusiast? Not. Not really, no.
[44:49] What was your parents' respective levels of joyfulness? That doesn't mean, of course, always being joyful, but level of spontaneity and joy and delight, at least at times.
[45:02] When they would get together with their friends, yes, they would be. Or sometimes when we'd have meals together. It was kind of hit or miss, but yes, they would be happy and joyful. Or sometimes watching TV together, like a funny movie or sports, watching sports.
[45:21] Okay, got it, got it. Two dead bodies, one adult and one child, wearing very brightly colored clothes, lying very still in the shallow water. It must have been an illusion. an illusion. I mean, it wouldn't be a mirage, right? Because you're too close, right? So I'm trying to figure out what the illusion might be. Is that maybe an illusion that's sort of a trick in your eyes or something?
[45:46] Well, I just couldn't imagine there would be two dead bodies in water. I'm very shocked because I've been there many times in bond. This can't be happening.
[45:55] And then you dissociate. I mean, almost completely. because, I mean, always the interesting thing in dreams is to compare them to how you would act in the real world.
[46:07] Right.
[46:11] So at the beginning, let's just go back to the beginning, you are there with your son, and he's about the age that your parents stopped going to church, but you're there, Which means that's an deviation from what your father did, right?
[46:32] Right.
[46:34] And everything's kind of normal until you see the bodies and then things go weird. Because if in real life you were down there and you saw a body, you would jump straight in.
[46:53] Right.
[46:54] In case they're still alive.
[46:56] Right.
[46:56] Like you wouldn't say hey tom and you know try and get his attention and then take off your socks and shoes like there's something very strange and slow that's happening here which is your dream telling you this isn't real but it's important right because if it was real if this is if you were down there or anybody was down there and you saw these these these two bodies you would immediately jump in shoes socks doesn't matter you would immediately jump in and try and pull the people out right exactly but you're doing like hey tom and he doesn't see you and and then you start chatting right right with with bodies in the water and you don't tell him about the bodies, A close friend of your younger brother. Is he still a close friend of your younger brother, or was it just back then?
[47:51] Back then. They didn't see each other once in a while, but yeah. I wouldn't say a close friend.
[47:58] No. So did you think, when you say I wanted to confirm that they're real, did you think they might be mannequins or something?
[48:04] Yeah, might be mannequins or something, you know, some, yeah, I don't know.
[48:10] A prank.
[48:11] A bug dog, right, right, yeah.
[48:15] There was a kid's plastic pail and shovel in the ground And I picked up the little shovel and waded into the water up to my knees Now Do you remember, if anything, what Tom, How Tom reacted to you saying There are two bodies In the water.
[48:40] I just told him that and then walked by him and went and got the tail in trouble. But I didn't see his reaction.
[48:47] He didn't do anything. He didn't be like, oh my god, let's get in there, let's get them out. Oh my god. There's something very interesting here that are you pretending that the bodies aren't there earlier on? What happens to the bodies when you're trying to get Tom's attention?
[49:09] Right. right it's not i didn't see anything about that.
[49:12] So you're covering up these bodies in a way right because he hasn't seen them or didn't notice right.
[49:19] Because he hasn't seen them right or hasn't noticed them.
[49:22] Well no but you could point them out right right so what i think is interesting here is earlier i asked you what did the priests or the other adults say about your, parents not being there at church and you said well nothing that's correct so, the people embedded in the natural world who aren't going to church nobody's commenting nobody's mentioning not even you right that they're not their people right, so you are covering up these bodies, conspicuous by their absence. They're not in the church. They're underwater, but you're not sure if they're real. So, I can't say we get erected or...
[50:29] I don't know. How does this sound? Maybe I just knew I couldn't save them. Is that...
[50:33] Well, I think... So, this is always a big question that we have with just about everyone in our life that we didn't choose. Like you didn't choose your parents, right? Are they real? Are they real? Are they alive?
[50:49] No.
[50:50] And and the question of aliveness is you know sort of deep and powerful and interesting and i think it has a lot to do with are they spontaneous are they thoughtful are they affectionate do they have access to their emotions are they real are they real people or are they just kind of robots npcs um right not spontaneous not genuine not thoughtful not curious not connected right does that make sense it.
[51:21] Does make sense yes.
[51:21] Now for your parents to say absolute nonsense like we graduated from church it's not even remotely credible and of course you know i put all of my listeners at top one percent of intelligence so and you knew that that was nonsense at the time right right.
[51:38] But when my older brother had said so he got my father got very angry at him. I was like, don't question me. Just do it.
[51:47] Oh, so your older brother said, what do you mean you graduated from church? That's not a thing.
[51:51] No, he said, why do we have to go if you don't go?
[51:54] And your father said, don't question me.
[51:57] Right.
[51:58] Okay. So your father tried to give a cover story. Your father tried to give you something credible. But when it turned out that it was not even remotely believable, he got angry, right?
[52:13] Exactly. Very angry.
[52:15] Very angry.
[52:17] Which is often the case.
[52:19] He had a bad temper.
[52:21] Oh, yeah.
[52:24] And how often would he get angry in, say, any given week or month?
[52:29] Well, I think back to, you know, Eddie Murphy talking about slavery. Like, oh, people used to whip. You know, it's like, oh, once you see someone get whipped, it's like, okay, I'll do whatever you want. Pick that cotton. Just keep that back with those whips, right? It was kind of like that thing. Like, you didn't have to. You just had to see once or twice. It would come up once in a while and you knew that you'd get a beating if you crossed him.
[52:52] And what did he beat you guys with?
[52:56] His hand.
[52:57] Okay, so he wasn't an implement guy, right?
[53:00] No, he didn't need it. He was big enough.
[53:03] Open hand and close hand?
[53:05] Open, yeah.
[53:08] And how was your mother's, or what was your mother's reaction to these beatings?
[53:14] I need to keep the kids in line.
[53:18] I'm sorry, take it?
[53:19] She supported me to keep the kids in line. She would do the same thing.
[53:23] So they both hit you? Oh, yeah. And how often would you get hit by your mother?
[53:31] That was more random type of, basically, on her mood. If she had had a bad day or something like that, it would trigger her off, and she would take her cutting board and use that to hit us.
[53:43] She'd hit you with a cutting board.
[53:46] Yes with a handle on it so.
[53:49] That's pretty brutal isn't it, okay so that they both had gone.
[53:57] To religious schools and beaten up by the nuns they both had talked about that as well in their childhood.
[54:04] Well then they know how bad and unpleasant it is right, all right, so your mother's was more your father's was more sort of cold and angry and your mother's was more volatile and emotional is that right?
[54:23] Exactly, yes.
[54:29] Okay. So, how much did you think the bodies were an illusion when you first saw them and you were chatting with Tom?
[54:46] I think I thought they were real, but I just wanted to confirm. I was hoping, obviously, that it wasn't real, but I just had to confirm that they were.
[54:58] Okay now the plastic pail and shovel i don't quite but the the small beach the bright colored beach things right right right yeah and now you can only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water right right, and that would accord with your father being gone because he died earlier 15 years earlier than your mother, is that right?
[55:25] Correct.
[55:27] I reached down and held the child's little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand.
[55:36] Like it had been there a while, so that's why the sand had gone over it.
[55:43] I started digging with a little plastic shovel, but I couldn't extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater that was stuck or buried in the sand. Was your mother a sweater person or does that have any dressements for you?
[55:54] Yeah, yeah, she was.
[55:57] Okay, so maybe this is the mother thing, okay?
[56:00] Right.
[56:00] I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself. So I turned back to Tom, who was still standing there by the side of the pool, asked him to call 911 and get some help. So, I mean, I'm on the other end of 911, right?
[56:16] Right.
[56:19] Because you can't get to the dream On your own and the dream is saying Call Stef.
[56:24] Right, right, exactly.
[56:30] Which arm, left or right, from her perspective?
[56:34] Left.
[56:35] Was she left-handed?
[56:37] No.
[56:38] Okay.
[56:39] But I think it also might have been, you know, just because I was thinking of when I went to this funeral, I've been to a number of children's funerals too. So that could be it. saying I'm not just here for my parents, but my parents age but there's also children's funerals I've been to which is obviously a lot more impactful as opposed to one of my aunt's friends who's died at over age 80, I think that also might have been coming up and how horrible obviously that's sad obviously when you go to someone's funeral in front of the family but when it's the children it's unbearable I mean it's almost unbearable, I think that might have had something to do with it.
[57:24] Let me ask...
[57:25] The fact that my son was in the dream as well, it's like, okay, people are going up to parents and saying, I'm sorry for your loss, and there's their kid right in the casket. I mean, that's just...
[57:34] Yeah, but there's no... I mean, yeah, but the child who's in there... It's funny because things that are difficult or unpleasant that we know are difficult or unpleasant don't usually show up in dreams. It's the things that are difficult or unpleasant that we're not consciously aware of that show up in dreams.
[57:59] Okay.
[58:06] You said that your mother was sort of more volatile. Did she grow up? did she become more mature and wiser it doesn't sound like that if she's just appeasing your older brother and doing the two or three days a week even though she's exhausted it doesn't sound like she got boundaries or negotiation or wisdom and the fact that you said she had favorites that's a child's perspective like my favorite toy uh my favorite uh blanket or that that's a kid's thing to have these favorites right particularly with regards to to kids right especially your own kids so the favorite things is very immature the lack of boundaries is very immature and the volatile hitting is very immature and the fact that she just appeased your brother and did not see your kids it's also very immature i mean does did she this is it doesn't say i don't want to put words in your mouth it doesn't sound like she really grew up.
[59:03] No you're correct because even towards the end of her day she'd always be complaining about how bad her mother was her mother's been dead for 60 years or 50 years or whatever yeah.
[59:12] Okay okay all right, so your father was old before his time and your mother never grew up right and so you've got an old body and a kid's body.
[59:35] And.
[59:39] It must have been an illusion. So are they real or not? Are they? Yes, and I'm trying, obviously, I'm obviously trying and keep my own family history out of this, but my experience with my family was trying to figure out if they were what I would consider alive. So people who are highly defensive, to me, are not really alive. That's the NPC thing. You say this, they say that. Right? You bring up Trump, they get angry. I'm not saying that was your parents. So with me, it was like, okay, is...
[1:00:28] Is the person alive? Do they process things in the moment, or are they just defensive or justifying themselves? Do they adjust their behavior based upon what's happening in the world, or do they simply adjust their own defenses and justifications to do what feels better in the moment? now when your mother was acting unjustly towards you, when she was spending all the time with your, older brother's kids and no time with yours right oh right yes she said she said only only call me if it's an emergency and what do you call what do you do at the end of the dream.
[1:01:12] Call an emergency services.
[1:01:14] You call 9-1-1 right right okay so only call me if it's an emergency is incredibly, like i mean you've been a dad right so you know little kids just say stuff that is incredibly insult actually kind of had one on the live stream today but but little kids say stuff that's like incredibly insulting and they're just innocent of it right right like why why is auntie so fat you know i mean it's an innocent question right and so your mother it seemed like was so immature that she didn't even notice when she said to you or maybe she did i don't think she did tell me if she did when she said to you well your your brother's kids are really important your kids only call me if there's an emergency right that's such an insult to you and your family but she sounds like almost innocent of understanding that.
[1:02:07] Right right yeah and we kind of thought it was narcissistic but yes just.
[1:02:14] Revolving but narcissistic is also a very early phase in life right right i mean all early toddlers are narcissistic because they don't have the ability to to think in terms of other people, I mean, it would be like, imagine a baby trying to reverse breastfeed the mother. Like, it's just not going to happen, right? Because they're just, they're hunting themselves and themselves alone.
[1:02:40] Right.
[1:02:41] Okay. So, can I reach my mother? Is she alive? Is she conscious? Or is she an automator? Is she like a robot or an NPC? Is there someone I can connect with? Or is she in such an early state of mind That I cannot impact her consciousness.
[1:03:07] It would be the latter for sure Well.
[1:03:10] And with your father When your older brother said basically this is bullshit And he's like don't question me kid It gets all Darth Vader on him right That is saying you can't be a curious thinking person In this relationship, Exactly Exactly and I'm going to intimidate or frighten you into, being silent. Okay, so.
[1:03:42] Because that also happened at the end of his life when we started to get him to stop cringing and he was extremely angry. Leave me alone.
[1:03:53] I mean, that's almost like a death wish, right?
[1:03:55] Right.
[1:03:56] I'm sure that his doctor said you've got to stop smoking and drinking or you're not going to last.
[1:04:00] Exactly. Yes. Every year.
[1:04:06] Okay. So you say, hi, Tom. And you try to get his attention and so on. And so you as a kid could not figure out, you could not take the risk of figuring out whether your parents were alive or NPCs. because you were still under their control, right? So when did you first consciously begin to think that your parents were not very spontaneous or lively or alive in the way that we're talking here?
[1:04:42] I would say as my brother got older, he would question more and then be like, whoa, wow, that's that's a great point. And, you know, you would get to the point, especially when we start becoming a teenager, of questioning things. And then sort of the realization that this is not the way you should be treating him or us, you know, my brother or it's right. Yeah.
[1:05:05] Right. I also don't want to forget this big challenge that's happening in the dream, which is your son vanishes from your mind. right right because your son's there and there's also dead bodies there right right right now and and also you just walk like you completely forget about your kid even though wouldn't your kid be in a parking lot or or where cars no so he was.
[1:05:37] So i was in the parking lot he was walking by the street and he's going down the road so he was leaving.
[1:05:41] Right so so so this indicates, that it's something to do with fatherhood but not your fatherhood because if it was your fatherhood, if your kid was walking down the street you wouldn't go down to the pond right right right you'd call your kid over and say hey hey i want to show you this pond this is like i spent a lot of time here as a kid and all that kind of stuff right right so you just let your kids can walk oh that's interesting because walk also has these two meanings dreams are great this way walk means just to obviously step from place to place kids can walk you know like it means leave, right right like if you don't give us raise we're gonna walk right right they go on strike the kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents, And then he leaves the dream and never returns, right?
[1:06:38] Exactly.
[1:06:38] You don't know where he's going. You don't know, right?
[1:06:41] Right.
[1:06:41] So this indicates that it's about fatherhood, but not your fatherhood. Because if it was your fatherhood, you'd call your kid over or you'd go with your kid, right? You wouldn't just let him wander off.
[1:06:49] Exactly.
[1:06:50] And then never think of him again, right?
[1:06:52] Right.
[1:06:54] Okay. So you see these dead bodies. And this is around the time that you started going to church without your, you're sent to church without your parents. yes so are they alive or are they just, making up stories to win in the moment or dominating or brutal or do they have empathy maybe that's sort of the question right we don't want to go to church you kids need to go to church, and we're going to give you an obvious lie like we've graduated from church which is not a thing so do they have do they have empathy, because if they don't have empathy Then, They're kind of emotionally dead Because To have empathy is to, Genuinely feel what other people feel And negotiate their self and their other And it's to have sort of a rich and deep Communicative relationship and so on So if they don't have Empathy, Because they're In the opposite of the church and kind of soulless, it's really tough for kids to figure out it's actually quite dangerous for kids, to try and figure out whether their parents have empathy, because if you wake up to the fact that they don't have empathy it's really scary.
[1:08:23] And so you see these bodies, but you don't want to check if they're alive or not. You don't want to check if they're real or not. You're just chatting with Tom, right?
[1:08:31] Right. Right.
[1:08:33] But in that period where you are not able, oh, sorry, in that period where you're unwilling to just jump in the water and figure out if they're alive or dead, you're invisible to others. And that's how the deadness spreads. So for kids, if your parents are NPCs, if they lack empathy, if they're just kind of narcissistic or they're like automatons, then while you are avoiding this knowledge, you also lack empathy for yourself and others. So you're invisible. So they're dead and you're invisible. Does that make sense?
[1:09:12] Yes.
[1:09:13] Because Tom is walking towards you and is like not noticing anything, right?
[1:09:18] Not at all. Right?
[1:09:20] Which is very surprising.
[1:09:22] So you keep calling his name.
[1:09:22] Sorry, go ahead.
[1:09:23] This is very surprising.
[1:09:26] Sorry, what do you mean?
[1:09:28] That he didn't recognize me, especially being so close and then walking right by. Yeah.
[1:09:33] Well, but here's the fascinating thing. And it's all fascinating, but here's the fascinating thing. You keep saying his name and you're invisible, right?
[1:09:41] Right.
[1:09:43] But when does he know that you're there?
[1:09:46] When I say my name.
[1:09:48] When you say your name. So when you're focusing on others You're invisible When you tell him your name He says hello and you materialize Right? So that means that you had some kind of connection as a teenager, I think, you had some kind of connection as a teenager that gave you the strength, and maybe this is your older brother, right? But you had some kind of connection as a teenager that allowed you to begin probing your parents' emptiness and lack of compassion, lack of empathy, their deadness. now you said that tom was a friend of your younger brother and your younger brother refused church earlier right yes.
[1:10:34] Or maybe my parents just gave up on pushing him to do it but one way or the other he stopped going yeah.
[1:10:38] Okay so your younger brother defied your parents right yes and they didn't escalate with him right correct as much okay so your younger brother defies your parents and shows their weakness or their lack of principle so in other words when your younger brother defies your parents and they don't escalate with him it means that they don't care about any principle they only care whether they have the energy and desire to escalate and Where they didn't with your younger brother, it means that all of the things that they said, why they were hitting you, well, to teach you respect or to teach you discipline, none of that meant anything. They only did it because they had the energy and the strength and they wanted to do it. And then with your brother, they didn't have the energy and strength to want to do it.
[1:11:35] Right.
[1:11:36] And so they didn't do it.
[1:11:38] Exactly.
[1:11:39] So it means it was only about power. It was never about principle. if that makes sense.
[1:11:45] In perfect sense, because it was quite shocking that he was able to get away with it, and we weren't.
[1:11:53] Right. Right. Okay, so... When you say your name, you become real to him, and you start talking. You don't have any idea how long you talked, did you?
[1:12:12] I was just very short time. Hi, how are you doing? How's everything going? Yeah.
[1:12:17] So then it's very interesting. You start taking off your shoes and socks to get in the water. Why are you doing that? It's too cold to go in the water. Two bodies lying under the water. I told Tom that I wanted to confirm if they are real. so it's interesting of course to confirm if bodies are real or not to take off your socks and shoes you roll up your pants and all that kind of stuff exactly exactly right i mean that's quite delicate in a way right, so the kid's plastic pail and shovel on the ground picked up the little shovel and waded into the water up to my knees look down at the water can only now see the child's body, did you uh did you have any direct conversations with your father before he died or did he mostly die with the distance between you.
[1:13:09] I died of the distance between us yes.
[1:13:12] Okay and did you have any more luck or any more folk i don't know how long you've been listening to what i do any more luck or more focus talking to your mother um before she died uh.
[1:13:26] No she got sick i started listening to you so i didn't get that chance at the time.
[1:13:30] I'm sorry i thought she was six or five years did i get that right yes yeah right that's interesting because you kind of despawned a little there right i.
[1:13:45] Would say what does despawn mean.
[1:13:47] Sorry despawn means that um i was asking you a question you made an excuse which is you remember earlier i said like you know you're just making stuff up and it's kind of tough to penetrate because when we start talking about your parents, uh, you, you get very abstract and deflecting, right? So I said, did you have a chance with your mother to talk to her before she died? And then you said, well, I didn't have time, but she was, she was sick for five years. Yeah, time, right?
[1:14:19] Time, yeah.
[1:14:21] So this making up of excuses.
[1:14:22] It was a memory issue. It was a memory issue. So, I mean, having a conversation was no meaning.
[1:14:28] Oh, sorry. She had Alzheimer's. Oh, she had Alzheimer's. Okay. And for how long did she have Alzheimer's? Sorry. Was the getting sick Alzheimer's from the beginning?
[1:14:41] Yes. It was just started with like dementia and then went into full-blown Alzheimer's. So that was over a period of eight or nine years, maybe 10, yeah.
[1:14:51] Ah, okay.
[1:14:52] Because normally Alzheimer's patients don't last that long, but she lasted quite a bit longer than the average.
[1:14:59] So was she getting progressively more childlike as she went forward?
[1:15:04] Yes, yes.
[1:15:05] Okay, so then that would be why she's a kid in the drink.
[1:15:09] Right. Because she would only remember she had to get to a point where she forgot our names and could only remember her parents' names or her siblings' names.
[1:15:19] Oh, so if you can't remember her children's names but can remember her parents' names, that specifically is little girl stuff.
[1:15:25] Right, like I have to be home for dinner, you know, when my parents are getting angry and stuff like that. Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah.
[1:15:31] Okay, then I would say for certain. If your father vanishes from the dream and your mother is a little girl and she died having regressed considerably back into her childhood, I think that, and the sweater I think is another, issue okay so, you told Tom you wanted to confirm if they're real so let's play this out as if this were real like a real right so, You believe in the dream. You must believe that they're dead, right?
[1:16:09] Yes.
[1:16:09] Because otherwise you wouldn't be wasting time or you would just dive in and try and pull them out, right?
[1:16:14] Right.
[1:16:15] So I wanted to confirm if they're real. Kids' plastic pail and shovel wade into the water up to your knees, look down into the water, only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water. I reached down and held the child's little hand. And as I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand. I started digging with a little plastic shovel. I could not extricate her arm.
[1:16:47] The hand was sticking out, but the arm was under the sand. Right, right.
[1:16:56] Now, why did you want to extricate her arm in the dream?
[1:17:02] To get her out of the water.
[1:17:04] Why did you want to get her out of the water? Because the purpose was not to get them out of the water. The purpose was to confirm if they're real.
[1:17:13] Right.
[1:17:13] So once you've established that they're real, why wouldn't you then turn and say, call 911, there are real bodies here. So you reached down and held the child. Now, did you hold the child's hand to find out if it's real or plastic or a mannequin or something?
[1:17:31] Right.
[1:17:32] Is that right? Yes. So you reach down and you held the child's little hand. Now, I got to tell you, I don't think I'd do that if it was a real body.
[1:17:42] Right.
[1:17:43] What about you? I don't think I would touch it skin to skin.
[1:17:46] No.
[1:17:48] I don't know what the hell it died of, right?
[1:17:49] It's trying to help, right?
[1:17:52] Well, but that's what I'm trying to figure out, right? I reached down and held the child's little hand. so you've you've when do you when do you realize that it's real when do you realize the bodies are real when you look down in the water let's see i'm sorry let's.
[1:18:14] See i'm trying to think i want to make sure i get this correct.
[1:18:17] So you wade into the water correct you get you pick up the little shovel and you pick the shovel i assume you pick the shovel because you don't want to touch the bodies you want to poke them and see if they're real right right.
[1:18:26] Right and also in case i need to dig them out, I guess.
[1:18:30] What do you mean, dig them out? Why would you dig out the bodies?
[1:18:36] They're stuck, right?
[1:18:37] No, seriously. It could be a crime scene. You shouldn't be disturbing this. So, this is what I'm trying to sort of puzzle here. Are they real or not? Okay, first of all, you could just dial 911 and see if they're real. You could ask Tom, what do you think, or anything like that, right? Because personally, if I saw things that I thought were two dead bodies, I'd just immediately call 911. I wouldn't go in there and disturb it because, again, it could be a crime scene. So, you go in and you see the child's body. You can't see the older guy anymore, right? So you see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water. So then you know it's real, right?
[1:19:25] Right. I know it's real.
[1:19:26] So reach down and held the child's little hand. Does that remind you of your mother dying or did you hold her hand while she was dying or anything like that?
[1:19:35] No, no.
[1:19:37] Were you there when she died?
[1:19:39] Yes.
[1:19:41] And you didn't hold her hand?
[1:19:44] No. it was a couple of us around the bed and it was yeah she was I guess out of it so now we.
[1:19:56] Didn't know why wouldn't you I'm just curious I mean I assume you had some affection for your mother or you were there took care of her for half a decade or whatever right so why wouldn't you hold her hand and it's not a criticism I'm just curious because she was.
[1:20:10] Completely out of it.
[1:20:12] So why does that mean that that mean you shouldn't hold her hand no i should i mean don't you hope someone's holding your hand when you're dying.
[1:20:22] Right right yeah none of us did we just we just stood there.
[1:20:28] What about was there any level of physical affection between you and your mom when she got older yes yep i see you hugged and all that oh yeah yeah okay but you wouldn't hold her hand.
[1:20:41] I don't recall that.
[1:20:42] When she's dying.
[1:20:44] No.
[1:20:44] I'm sorry?
[1:20:45] Maybe one of my brothers did.
[1:20:48] No, okay. I'm talking about you.
[1:20:49] Right? Because you're a kid, right? Right.
[1:20:51] Okay, so I reached down, held the child's little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand. Why do you want to pull the arm out?
[1:21:03] So I think it's still, if I remember, this is hard to go back, because that's why I wrote it down right away.
[1:21:09] Yeah.
[1:21:10] Is because i thought i could still you know maybe do mouth-to-mouth or something i don't know if that's true.
[1:21:16] Well because i could actually no but then bring her to the shore then but then you're kind of a murderer right right because if you see them and then you're like hey tom and you chat and then you take your socks off and then you kind of go in slowly and because it's kind of cold and right if you think that they might still be alive then you want them dead right, And so your dream by setting it up that there are bodies under the water, already that's urgent.
[1:21:50] Right.
[1:21:51] And so you kind of dilly-dally, and that to me is like you as a teenager trying to figure out whether your parents can be reached with reason or not, whether they're alive, right?
[1:22:02] Mm-hmm.
[1:22:05] Um, and did your, did your parents, um, did they ever have any deep conversations, life, meaning virtue, or was it mostly small talk?
[1:22:15] Mostly small talk.
[1:22:17] Okay. So that's why it's shallow wood. Cause they could be a thousand fathoms deep and dream could take you down there. No problem. Right.
[1:22:23] Right. Right. Okay.
[1:22:25] Um, so why it's not because you think there might be a life. Why are you trying to lift the hand? and what's the emotion when you see the girl.
[1:22:40] It's similar to when I had gone to one of the funerals of the child's funeral horror and just, shock and just like an emptiness of wow this shouldn't be happening right again if it's an older person yeah that's natural but this definitely shouldn't be happening.
[1:22:59] Okay so, was your mother because sometimes volatile people i sort of think of the italian cliche right sometimes volatile people can be very warm-hearted, right and what's your mother uh would you characterize her as warm-hearted medium or cold-hearted i.
[1:23:24] Would say for the most part warm-hearted yes.
[1:23:26] Okay but if she was warm-hearted then why would she say things like only call me regarding your kids if it's an emergency because that's very cold hearted right.
[1:23:41] These things would just come up once in a while these things just shock us would happen once in a while.
[1:23:47] And it's also cold hearted to hit your children with a cutting board right that's cold right that's like mafioso cult, Okay, and that's why the water is shallow and cold.
[1:24:07] I see.
[1:24:09] Held the little child's hand. Held is interested. And I know that there's the dream and then there's the language you're using about it. And there's sort of two layers. Because you would grab the hand if you thought you would hold. Holding the hand is a gesture of comfort or affection. If you think that she might still be alive, you would grab the hand and yank. and you wouldn't be digging with a little plastic shovel. Right? So that's what I'm trying to figure out here is to hold the child's little hand. You try to lift her hand. The arm is buried under the sand. So digging with a little plastic shovel. But I couldn't extricate her arm. I realized I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself. I don't think that's true, though, because you could physically, right?
[1:25:06] Right. But if it was still stuck under the sand, I couldn't get it out, right?
[1:25:13] Well, you could because you could simply, I mean, again, if you sort of think of it Well, no, you don't need to dig. It's a child. She's not, like, you don't just see the tip of her nose, right?
[1:25:26] Right, see the whole body.
[1:25:28] You see the whole body, so you would just grab her sweater and lift her up. And I know, like, you get your foot stuck in the mud and it can be tough to pull out. I mean, but you didn't even try, right?
[1:25:40] Correct.
[1:25:41] So how do you know that you can't pick the child's body up and place it on the shore by myself, right? Because the digging thing is interesting. Okay, so you're digging. What was your relationship with your mother like over the last, say, 10 years of her life?
[1:25:58] Oh, it was just getting progressively worse from an assisted living to memory care to nursing home. Those three stages, so.
[1:26:06] Yeah, that's not what I asked, though. I didn't ask how did she decline or what was her medical condition.
[1:26:12] Right. What was your relationship? Just trying to keep her as comfortable as possible.
[1:26:20] What was your relationship? Not like, what did you do medically? Did you get any closer? did you talk i mean she didn't lose her mind right away it was a slow decline i assume.
[1:26:32] It was a slow decline yes i.
[1:26:34] Mean was there affection was their stories was there you know i mean if she was aware of her condition i assume she was to some degree was their comfort was like what.
[1:26:44] Was the relationship we would yeah we would show up and with the kids and she'd love to see see us and it was always happy you know i could but it was also you know part of the fact that she couldn't drive around herself anymore so it was relying upon us to show up. And in that case, it was, you know, I kind of joke my wife, oh, we'll go see her in an emergency, right? But of course, we would see her on a regular basis. So yeah, it was.
[1:27:10] Uh, you had to drive to go and see her.
[1:27:12] Correct. Correct. Right.
[1:27:15] And that's funny. At the beginning, you say kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents, but your mother needed to be driven everywhere by her children, right?
[1:27:25] Exactly. Doctor's appointments and shopping. Yeah.
[1:27:28] Okay. And... Were you, of the three boys or the three men, were you the primary caregiver?
[1:27:40] We split it up between myself and my brother.
[1:27:44] The older or the younger?
[1:27:46] Younger. And the older one who got most of the attention didn't do a whole lot to help out when she was sick.
[1:27:54] Okay. And so you and your younger brother split it sort of 50-50, give or take?
[1:27:59] Mostly, yes.
[1:28:01] I'm sorry, you mumbled out there at the end. What was that?
[1:28:03] Yes, 50-50.
[1:28:06] And your older brother, who got the free babysitting for years, didn't do much?
[1:28:11] Correct.
[1:28:14] Okay. Did you love your mother?
[1:28:22] Yes.
[1:28:24] What did you love? What virtues of hers did you love?
[1:28:30] I would say, like you said, warm-hearted for the most part, except for these, emotional explosions that would happen from time to time. She was basically compared to my father, she spent a lot of time with us. I think that was helpful, you know, making us more feel like part of the family. Playing games and cards and board games and things like that.
[1:29:02] Did she give you any wisdom?
[1:29:08] She would push us to study harder, push us to...
[1:29:14] No, that didn't work. Wisdom, like how to live, how to be good, how to negotiate, how to deal with life's challenges. Like wisdom, lessons that she gave you that you still find a value to this day.
[1:29:27] Not a whole lot. We get to basically self-study for that. when we pick up things from her, I mean, her and my father stayed together. I mean, they were, you know, there wasn't, you know, financially or, you know, middle class. It wasn't, uh, wasn't any horror show in that sense, which I had seen some of my friends.
[1:29:46] But that's just, that's just money.
[1:29:48] Right.
[1:29:48] Uh, did you, uh, and your wife, did you use corporal punishment with your children at all?
[1:29:55] Uh, at the beginning, yes. And, uh, we thought it was the right thing to do.
[1:30:01] Sure. Sure. And how old were you, how old were your kids when you stopped?
[1:30:06] About first, second grade, maybe six or seven.
[1:30:12] And how often was it spanking? How often did you spank them?
[1:30:16] Infrequently, just something went really wrong.
[1:30:20] Okay. Now, if your mother had been babysitting your children and you came home and you found them sort of sobbing and crying with bruises on them, and she had hit your children with a cutting board, what would you think?
[1:30:34] I would be extremely angry.
[1:30:36] Right.
[1:30:37] For sure.
[1:30:38] Did you ever express, because that's what happened to you, right? Did you ever express your anger towards your mother and how she treated you?
[1:30:47] Not in a serious conversation. No, once in a while we take, you know, kind of snide remarks about it. But no, didn't have a real conversation about it.
[1:30:56] Why not?
[1:31:00] Um, why not? You know, there's just kind of the feeling that that's the way her parents treated her, so that's the way she would treat her kids.
[1:31:12] Well, then there'd be no reason for you to get angry if she hit your children with a cutting board because that's how she was treated. Like, why would you get angry? You'd have all this understanding, wouldn't you?
[1:31:25] Right, right.
[1:31:26] And you'd say to your kids, well, you know, grandma still gets to babysit you and she's going to hit you again. But, you know, she was hit as a kid. So, you know, just suck it up. Maybe maybe in 30 years you can make some snide jokes about it.
[1:31:39] Right.
[1:31:41] So why did you have all this forgiveness with. I'm sorry.
[1:31:44] Definitely lost opportunity to have that discussion.
[1:31:47] There's not opportunity to be dishonest.
[1:31:50] Right.
[1:31:51] If you. I mean, why are your kids so much more important than you as a kid? Why would you be outraged If she beat your kids But you're not outraged that she beat you.
[1:32:02] Oh I was very angry When it happened And held that for a long time for sure.
[1:32:06] Okay Why not tell her, Because it's lying By omission right I mean if you were doing something That enraged your wife Would you want her to hide it from you for 40 years Definitely not. You'd want her to tell you, right?
[1:32:29] Right.
[1:32:30] So why not tell your mother?
[1:32:36] She get upset again, I guess.
[1:32:39] Well, so what? What's wrong with her? I mean, I'm not saying in the later stages of dementia, but what's wrong with her being upset? I mean, she beat you with a cutting board. She has no problem upsetting others, so what's wrong with her being upset?
[1:33:03] Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know.
[1:33:07] Now, do you know who we don't tell the truth to?
[1:33:12] Who tell the truth to? Children, I guess.
[1:33:21] That's right. Little kids, right? So you were treating your mother or your mother was milking this. I'm a little kid.
[1:33:28] Right.
[1:33:29] I can't handle the truth. It'll be too. And the reason we don't tell the truth to little kids is because they can't handle the truth, right?
[1:33:36] Right. So I still, you're saying basically I still can't treat you as a child.
[1:33:43] Well, even before she had the dementia, she had power over you because she was pretending to be a child, which is not uncommon for women. so you as an adult you cannot budge a little girl, she's stronger than you does that make sense uh yes yeah you've got to do this little Plastic shovel digging as opposed to just Grabbing her and pulling her out of The water right, So She's stronger than you right a woman's Strength is her pretend weakness a man's weakness Is his pretend strength blah blah blah right, The kid's plastic pail, and the fact that, okay, was your mother like a fussy, keep it close, clean kind of mom?
[1:34:56] To some extent. Not too over the top, but yeah.
[1:34:59] Well, so I mean, if you were going to go wading in a pond, would your mother want you to take your shoes off? Right. So You take the shoes off because you're around your mom, And you Kind of dig a little But you can't move her Or you know because she's wearing The sweater as your mom did And so you have I would assume and this is true for most men But you have a weakness, With regards to the feminine Which is that, you won't treat females as strong, capable, and equal.
[1:35:46] Right.
[1:35:49] And your mom ran the relationship by pretending to be weak because you wouldn't tell her the truth because it might upset her. And again, that's what we do with little kids.
[1:35:58] Right.
[1:35:59] Right? I mean, you wouldn't show some little kid the Charlie Kirk assassination video because they couldn't handle it. Right? So, you treated your mother as a child, which is why you lied to her and wouldn't be honest and direct about what you'd suffered at her hands.
[1:36:22] Right. That seems to be what's going on here as well, yes, in the dream.
[1:36:34] I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself. So I turned back to Tom, who was still standing there by the side of the pond, asked him to call 911 to get some help. Yeah, so this is stuff that you need to see. And my gosh, I mean, this is a very common phenomenon in society. I have it, you have it. Which is like if a woman, you know the old thing, like a man cries, everybody like, you know, walk away, right? A woman cries, everyone's like, oh, how can we help you? Women have immense power by pretending to be weak and childlike. I mean, your mother got to escape the blowback and the just anger of you, not just for how she treated you as a child, but for how she treated you abominably as an adult. you know the asshole brother I'm all there for him but you now only in an emergency because you're nice.
[1:37:33] She informed and complied and rewarded the selfish guy and the two brothers who actually cared for her we haven't really talked about your relationship between your mother and your younger brother but she got away with it all, she got to be a complete hypocrite and send her kids off to church never got called out by the congregation never got called out by the priest never got called out by anybody, right and then she got to appease the elder brother and be with him the favorite kids even though it exhausted her she got to insult your family by seeing you once or twice even though she lived only 45 minutes away, she got to insult your family by saying no no I'm there for them two or three days a week but for you only in an emergency and again that's the kind of quote innocent childlike stuff that women pull, and it worked she got to go from birth to grave never being confronted for the wrongs that she did right.
[1:38:49] And I think that 9-1-1 definitely ties directly to the emergency, only in an emergency.
[1:38:55] Yes. And I think, and we don't have to get into this because, you know, that's something that you can mull over. But I would say that your mother died, was it four or five years ago?
[1:39:10] Yes. Yeah.
[1:39:11] Okay. So there's something going on in your life. maybe it's your mother-in-law or something like that or maybe it's a female boss or something but there's something going on in your life, where female power is invisible to you and the female power of i can't handle it i mean that's what hate speech is right hate speech the whole thing is just well you can't tell the truth to women because they'll get really upset right right so i mean oh maybe it's got something to do with the fact that charlie kirk just got fucking slaughtered for upsetting people right, and the so maybe there's something that's going on culturally or oh sorry when did the dream happen.
[1:40:01] A couple weeks ago august.
[1:40:03] 30th so yes before before the arena stuff okay all right but i mean it's certainly in the air i don't know if you were listening to me like i was for weeks before and it was a funny kind of coincidence but for weeks before Charlie was murdered, I was saying like you do maximum philosophy until they're just about to kill you and then you pull back, maybe you heard you pull.
[1:40:29] Back to avoid the violence.
[1:40:32] Is that what your point was, that was certainly the way that i was heading i mean i knew that from the bomb threats and death threats right so so you you do that that's why i did five years in the wilderness right so you you do maximum philosophy until they're just about to kill you then you pull it back and then you know hopefully you can advance again and certainly you know since i was gone a lot of things have moved forward that were wildly shocking uh when i first brought them up and now people are accepting and absorbing them but yeah if you're too far ahead it's like in a war right if you're too far ahead, then the arrows they shoot at the enemy hit you in the back because you're too close to the enemy right you have to wait for the army to catch up right so so there's something that's going on i think where the female power of pretend excessive vulnerability is dominating you in some way, and i also get hit in.
[1:41:31] School by women teachers.
[1:41:33] I'm sorry i.
[1:41:35] Would also get hit in school, teacher also had a paddle that had the words hot on it and hit the kids.
[1:41:43] Right. And I don't know if you've been on social media, but I talked about the sort of feral nature of women these days, that women say, well, because I'm upset, I can use violence.
[1:41:55] Right.
[1:41:56] And whether that's personal violence or the violence of the state, right, which is this speech is upsetting me, we need to ban it. and i think and i think this is a dream that is is common to men in the west right i mean andrew tate was replying to one of my tweets the other day where he was saying that white men are have got to stop listening to women because you know they're just leading you down the garden path and other races don't listen to their women and look out they're flourishing and you know this is all i don't want to get into the truth or falsehood of that statement but that is that the question of what the hell have we done in the west that women have so much power like i saw this um it was a cartoon today which was uh you know adulterous in in the bible days you're getting stoned right and now adulterous in the modern age the adulterer and the wife they get alimony and they get the house and like the guys living in the car like the amount of female power in the west is staggering because you know they outvote they outlive uh and and they um more goodies from.
[1:43:04] The state right.
[1:43:05] More goodies from the state you get the national debt and and you know all of this language policing and tone policing and the wokeness is just female nature plus the state right so um this sort of pretend weakness stuff is uh is really is just absolutely dominating the west which is i'm so vulnerable that if you upset me i'm gonna scream at you, and it's like if you can't manage your emotions you can't be part of adult conversations, And if you're that volatile, then you shouldn't be making any important decisions.
[1:43:40] So given the state of things today, I guess the real question is, see, my mother's long known, but how do my sons navigate this situation?
[1:43:50] Well, yeah, that was my sort of next question, which was about your sons and their dating life. Because your sons are going to meet women who are going to try and play them this way.
[1:43:59] Right.
[1:44:00] And if you brought your sons up to be more conservative or whatever, which is very much the case with most young men these days they're going to run into these hyper leftist women who are going to be incredibly manipulative and and play victim and control them and as your mother did right you can't tell the truth to your mother because you'll just get too upset right and thus you're treating her as a little toddler and that and that but she's not a little toddler she's treating you you're treating her as a little toddler and therefore she has all the power, right and you're doing this in the world of nature because Christianity is quite, masculine right and gives you I mean the whole Adam and Eve thing right and the dangers and temptations of the female and so on and so because you're not in the church, you are vulnerable to female the pretense of female victimhood, right and and if you're not aware of that and your sons saw all of this right so if your if your mother got sick 10 years ago then your son your sons were in their early teens right correct, and so they saw throughout their entire psychosocial sexual development and all of that they saw you cuck into your mom sorry to put it so bluntly but they saw you, deferring to your mom doing everything for your mom having no needs of your own.
[1:45:28] Only saying her name, not yours, as you did with Tom in the dream. That he only noticed you when you said your name. Ignoring your own children, right? Because you've got a son at the beginning of the dream and you completely ignore him. So in my view, right, you know, one thing to look back on is to say, what did I teach my sons about female power if I took care? of the woman who beat me and who married a man who beat me and who applauded him beating me and who insulted my children and had favorites and played favorites, and I just surrendered half their childhoods to take care of this woman without having a single fucking need of my own. Not even the need to be honest. I self-erased in order to serve, the manipulative pitiful feminine right what has that taught my sons, about male and female power and authority, I mean I never expressed anger to my mother for how she abused me.
[1:46:55] Right in most places in the west if your mother when your mother hit you with a cutting board she'd go to jail.
[1:47:05] These days yes.
[1:47:06] Criminal assault right and that's what you felt when you thought of your sons being hit by your mother right so women get off scot-free because women dominate and dictate the conversation and I'm really it's not personal to you of course I'm completely sick and tired in the west of men deferring to everything that women say they want.
[1:47:31] Sure, but yes they're.
[1:47:35] Definitely did your wife and sorry we don't have to get into your marriage of course sorry to interrupt did your wife say you need to have an honest conversation with your mother before she dies or before she gets too mentally compromised with her Alzheimer's.
[1:47:52] She did point out the issues that you mentioned.
[1:47:56] And did she encourage you to resolve them.
[1:47:59] She encouraged me to behave differently.
[1:48:02] Okay so then why would you choose your mother over your wife.
[1:48:11] My wife wouldn't stand for that.
[1:48:14] She said you need to behave differently, did you behave differently like.
[1:48:20] So we had actually moved away for a few years. And then when I moved back to the area, it was the Alzheimer's. And so it started. So during that previous.
[1:48:31] Okay. Good Lord, man. Good Lord. You know, you were talking on the phone, right? Well, you can't have important conversations on the phone. You phone her. Come on, man. Don't get this nonsense. Like this is the bullshit that men do. make up shit well i didn't have time it's only five years well we moved away like i can't use the pony express come on man jesus reach down between your legs feel those sacks, of course you could have called her of course you could have had that conversation i.
[1:49:09] Could have yeah.
[1:49:09] Right so your mother wanted you what you wanted you to be more honest and direct with your mother your wife yes okay and did you.
[1:49:19] After we moved back yes but again it was the uh yeah it didn't have quite the effect obviously with the memory.
[1:49:25] Sorry you were more honest and direct with your mother the second time the alzheimer's right yeah okay so you because obviously i thought you didn't really talk to your mother about her beating well it was more like it's.
[1:49:37] More like she didn't want to move out of her place you know but.
[1:49:40] That was just when it had to be no no talking about your actual emotions and experience i know your mother no okay so that's what i mean so if you're if your wife wanted you to be more direct with your mother and your mother obviously didn't want to have that happen and you conform to your mother against your wife that means you chose your mother over your wife in that instance right just like your mother chose your brother over you and your younger brother, right so conforming to the least mature person and ignoring the advice of the more mature person you don't want to model that for your kids but you have in some ways and listen i'm just pointing out, I'm sure you did a million things right as a dad, I'm just pointing out what your dream might be saying to you.
[1:50:28] It's a definite lesson.
[1:50:30] I'm sorry?
[1:50:31] It's definitely a good lesson. Yes, I definitely need a reminder.
[1:50:35] Read a book called Man's Fear of Women.
[1:50:39] Okay.
[1:50:40] It's a very good book. It's a very good book and well worth reviewing. Because you don't want your sons to grow up with this level of deference, right?
[1:50:49] Correct.
[1:50:50] Because if your sons are treating women as if they're sort of these frail, fragile beasts that can't be disturbed, then the women will run roughshod all over them. And these days, that's very hazardous, right?
[1:50:59] Big time, for sure.
[1:51:01] All right. How do we do?
[1:51:03] Great, great. Like you said, there's some of these things. I just couldn't suss out what it meant in the dream, but it's extremely helpful for you to provide this feedback and insight.
[1:51:13] Good, good. I would say talk about this with your wife because she's going to have an infinitely better view of it than I did. And hopefully, if there's anything that's important that we missed, I hope you'll drop me a line. And I really do appreciate your time tonight. It's been a while since we did a dream. This was a really great one.
[1:51:30] Yes, thank you, Seth. So much appreciate it.
[1:51:33] All right. Thanks, brother. All the best.
[1:51:36] Thank you. Okay, bye.
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